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Our daily lives are more and more connected online. This includes our utility grids. Jojo Maalouf, Hydro Ottawa’s Director of Cybersecurity and IT Infrastructure, joins thinkenergy to discuss the role of cybersecurity in the energy sector. From cybersecurity threats, like cyber warfare and ransom-seeking hacktivists, to the measures required to defend our energy systems. Plus, how AI both helps and complicates matters. Listen in to learn what’s driving change and the collaboration needed to protect the grid.
Related links
Ontario Cybersecurity Framework: https://www.oeb.ca/regulatory-rules-and-documents/rules-codes-and-requirements/ontario-cyber-security
Get Cyber Safe resources: https://www.getcybersafe.gc.ca/en
Jojo Maalouf on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jojo-maalouf-cism-cissp-0546b03/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com Hi everyone, welcome back. It won't be a surprise to anyone listening that our energy systems, like much of the rest of our lives, are becoming more and more connected and more online than ever before. Let's just take a look at our own personal lives. We've got apps that can control multiple aspects of our homes. For example, for my phone, I can adjust temperature, set points and fan speed heating and cooling in my house, I can turn on or off lights, both inside and outside. I can look and see who just rang my doorbell, even if I'm in another city, and I can check and see where my vehicle is, whether it's charging or not. And I can even turn it on all from my phone. And I would consider myself like middle of the road in terms of how connected and online I am. There are even further examples of this in some of those ultra-connected homes. This is part of our fast paced and constant evolution towards invenience and using technology to find solutions to problems that we didn't always know existed, and maybe they didn't actually exist. We've all heard that term, the Internet of Things, referring to this ultra-connected world where it's not just people talking over the internet, but our devices and systems are talking as well. I was absolutely floored when I was doing some research on this podcast to find out that this term, the Internet of Things, was first used 25 years ago, in 1999 when I first wrote the text for this. I put a placeholder in to say, oh, it's been around for over 10 years. And then when I actually did my research, it's over 25 years. Think about how far we've come since that idea was thought of in 1999 how different life is today than 1999 our energy systems and our utility grids are undergoing a similar transition. I talked about this a little bit with Hydro Ottawa's Jenna Gillis in a previous episode about grid modernization. So go back and have a listen to that. If you haven't already, we are adding more and more data points to our grids, and that includes sensors, smart switches, fault detectors, smarter meters, etc., etc. Even for hydro Ottawa, a local distribution company with around 350,000 customers, we are talking about many times that number of smart devices in the coming years, all connected, all trading data between themselves and our central systems and the smart folks who run them now, there is a ton of upside to this transition, and that's why we're doing it. More data leads to better decision making, a better view of what's happening, whether that's during an outage or at times when the grid is heavily utilized. It lets us get more out of the equipment we have, react and adjust to the needs of our customers, and react and adjust to the needs of the grid. It will lead to faster restoration during outages, and sometimes that restoration will be automatic without having to roll a truck. It will allow us to better integrate distributed energy resources like small scale solar and storage and other things into our grid for the benefit of our customers and the grid. There is no question that this is a move in the right direction, and hydro Ottawa is leaning into this aspect of the energy transition to build a smarter grid for our customers. However, it does highlight something that has long been a priority for us, cyber security. With so many connected devices, with so much data out there, we need to be extremely vigilant and rigorous with our digital security. Cyber-attacks on utility infrastructure are not theoretical. In 2015 and 2016 attacks on the Ukrainian power grid resulted in large scale power outages in that country, as we increasingly rely on electricity for so many aspects of our lives, attacks like this, whether by nation states or bad actors seeking financial gain, can have devastating consequences. Luckily, this is something that has been a priority for us for many years, and as the threats become more sophisticated, so too do our strategies to protect our systems and our grid from those attacks. Joining me today to talk about this is Hydro Ottawa's director of cybersecurity and IT infrastructure. Jojo Maalouf, JoJo, welcome to the show.
Jojo Maalouf 04:46
Thanks for having me.
Trevor Freeman 04:47
All right, so Jojo, cyber security is a little bit of a buzzword that a lot of folks have probably heard in a bunch of different contexts. Help us unpack it a little bit. What do we actually mean when we talk about cybersecurity threats and cybersecurity prevention, I guess?
Jojo Maalouf 05:05
Very good question, right? So, I mean, let's kind of simplify things, so we obviously have these adversaries, right? And these adversaries are trying to get into organizations networks. We hear a lot of the sensitivity or the criticality of information, so they're trying to obtain that information. And, you know, can they look at potentially monetizing that? Really what we're kind of trying to do, or what cyber security is, is, if you think about it, we have these bad guys, these adversaries. They're trying to get into organizations they possess or introduce some sort of level of risk. What we are trying to do as people in cyber security is defend those organizations from those risks and those adversaries. So, in order for us to do that, we need to put together a program. We need to make sure we have the relevant controls in place, because, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do is mitigate that risk to an acceptable level where the business can run.
Trevor Freeman 06:07
Yeah, totally. And who are these threats coming from? Like, we hear a lot about state sponsored groups for profit, hackers. There's sort of that hacktivists, kind of ideologically driven group. Who are we worried about in the in the energy industry?
Jojo Maalouf 06:20
You know, it's very good question. I think, to be honest, you, I think we worry about all of them. I think from from our perspective, threats are threats. And obviously, depending on the magnitude of those threats and where they're coming from, they could potentially possess or introduce a different type of risk. But the reality is, they all introduce a level of risk. Yes, we are worried about state sponsored entities. You know, we've seen what's happened throughout the years. It started out in Stuxnet with Iran in 2010 we've seen what's happened with Ukraine in 2015 the end of day, what are we trying to protect? We're trying to ensure that a cyber-attack doesn't actually impact our ability to deliver power to our customers. What we are seeing now in the industry, obviously, is that adversaries are understanding that they can really monetize this, right? So, we're seeing the exponential growth of ransomware throughout the years. I remember back in 2016 when a major Canadian university was asked to pay a think approximately a $35,000 ransomware. Where we looked at that in comparison in 2024 where the average cost of a ransomware attack is just under $5 million. So, it's a billion dollar industry, right? And it's only growing. You know, I'd say the threats are coming everywhere, but you're definitely seeing the monetization aspect of it growing exponentially.
Trevor Freeman 07:51
Yeah. So, I guess from our perspective, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is. If someone's getting into our systems and sort of impacting our ability to do what we do doesn't matter what the motivation is. It's a problem for us, and we try and guard against it.
Jojo Maalouf 08:05
Correct. I think, I think people are very highly motivated now, whether it's for it's ransomware, whether it's state sponsored, I think entities, or I would say adversary, sorry, are definitely highly motivated. And it doesn't really change our approach. So, you know, the energy sector needs to make sure that they do what they can to protect the systems.
Trevor Freeman 08:23
Yeah, fair enough. So, we've talked in the past on the show, and in my intro, I talked about grid modernization, and this sort of evolution of our grid, and the technology on our grid to have more and more connected devices out in the field, and the amount of data that's flowing on our grid is increasing. Obviously, there are many benefits to this, but inherently that brings a degree of risk as well. Can you talk to us about the risk that their grid modernization brings, and sort of how we're thinking about that?
Jojo Maalouf 08:58
So, Trevor, I think you said it well when you said more and more devices are connected now. So really, what ends up happening every time we add a device that's connected, it increases the organization's risk profile. So ideally, what we want to be able to do is we want to manage exactly what that those entry points into potential organizations are. So, every time I add a device, I have to think that it increases that attack surface to a degree. So, I mean, you've talked about what grid modernization can do. There are many capabilities I think that's going to benefit organizations. But I think as this happens, we need to ensure that cybersecurity risks are managed to ensure that that risk profile is managed to an appropriate level.
Trevor Freeman 09:48
How prepared is the energy industry to respond to and to recover from a major cyber-attack, if one were to happen on the power grid?
Jojo Maalouf 09:57
Honestly, I think that the energy sector as well. Prepared as a critical infrastructure entity, the energy sector has the benefit of dealing a lot with government partners. So, I think what you want to do as an organization is you want to build that trust, that ecosystem of partners, whether it is through public and private relationships. But I'd say from a critical infrastructure perspective, there are very good relationships with the industry, very good relationships with government partners. I think testing organizations resiliency has been in play now for many, many years. But I think from a cyber perspective, I think it's something where organizations continue to be prepared, continue to do some of the appropriate testing, you know? And I'll be honest, I say it's, it's, you never want to be complacent, right? And I think what we've learned over the years is threats are evolving. Threats are changing. The industry is always going to be susceptible to attacks.
Trevor Freeman 11:00
Are we collaborating and working with other stakeholders? I mean, both at the sort of other utility level, you mentioned, governments and regulatory bodies, are we collaborating with those other entities? And sort of in line when it comes to cybersecurity?
Jojo Maalouf 11:15
There is a lot of collaboration that occurs within the industry, whether it's in Ontario, you'll see now that the regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, you know, there is the Ontario cybersecurity framework that has been in play now since around 2018 even at the national level there. Here are many different bodies where, you know cybersecurity, like critical infrastructure protection is paramount, as discussed regularly, and then obviously there's the government agency. So, there's a lot of collaboration that goes whether it's from the provincial, the National, and then the government side as well. And I mean, I think you need those relationships, right? You need those partnerships to help.
Trevor Freeman 12:02
Yeah, we're not we're not a lone utility kind of figuring out on our own. We're working with our partners and our peers to figure that out. The other kind of area of emerging technology that I want to talk about is, AI, artificial intelligence and sort of machine learning. Are we using those technologies? Or do you see us using those technologies in the future to sort of enhance the cyber security of our grid and our assets?
Jojo Maalouf 12:29
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously artificial intelligence, machine learning, seems to be the 2024 theme. The reality is, is a lot of technologies have already adopted, whether it's AI or machine learning, into their into their solutions. You know, I think the whole Gen AI aspect is growing, and it's something that I think is going to benefit everybody in the industry as well. The unfortunate thing is, is that I think adversaries are going to be able to use these technologies as well. You know, whether it's to paint a better picture of an organization, maybe to customize some attack patterns, but I think it's something where we have to embrace the technology. We have to use it in our, I would say, in our toolkit, but we're very much cognizant of the fact is that adversaries are going to be using these, these tool sets as well to potentially target organizations within the energy sector.
Trevor Freeman 13:33
And are there specific things that you know, speaking as the local distribution company, specific things that our customers can do or should be aware of? What's the role of our customer when it comes to cybersecurity?
Jojo Maalouf 13:46
It's a very good question. I mean, from a from a customer's perspective, I think customers need to realize the importance of their information. So, I mean, the reality now is a lot of adversaries are targeting people directly because they want their information. Their information. Their information is valuable. So, I think as a customer, what they want to make sure they do is that they do what they can to protect their information. So, some very simple steps that they can do make sure you have a complex password that only you know, that's not easily guessable. The other thing is, you don't want to use that password across multiple systems. So, what's the best way for you to be able to manage all your passwords? Invest in a password manager. There are free solutions out there. There are other really good solutions that are at a fraction of a cost as well as that password. What you want to make sure you do is you have multi factor authentication attached to it. What that really means is it's a second level of authentication that's going to challenge you to make sure you are who you say you are. It could just be an application that's installed on your phone. Think those are really some really good ways that you know a customer can use to protect themselves. I think even investing in credit monitoring is really good because. Is the last thing you want to do is an adversary to target you, steal your information, then all of a sudden, are starting to open up accounts in your name, right? So credit monitoring is another really important one. So, I mean, I think those are some really basic ones, but I think that they can go a long way to protecting a customer from threats. There are some really good online resources that they can use. Public Safety Canada has their get cyber safe website that provides a lot of information for, you know, everyday residential people or customers, sorry, steps that they can take to protect themselves.
Trevor Freeman 15:33
And for our listeners that kind of are thinking like, Oh, I feel like I've heard that before. I think you're right. You have it is those basic steps that really can protect us. And just so that everybody knows this is a focus of us internally as well, all employees of Hydro Ottawa also have a focus on what can we as employees do in order to make sure we're protecting our systems, we're protecting our data, and all the things that JoJo mentioned when it comes to password integrity, conscious of protecting our data. We're focused on that on a day-to-day basis as well. Jojo, thanks very much for taking the time to talk us through this. It's something that is maybe a bit adjacent to the energy transition, but so important as we increasingly digitize our grid, digitize our systems, as I mentioned, add more data points. We can't sort of leave cybersecurity behind. So, I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today, as our listeners know, and as you know, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. So I will jump right into those. Jojo, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Jojo Maalouf 16:39
Yeah, good question. I'll give you two books, especially within the context of cybersecurity. You know, we did briefly mention Stuxnet. A really good book is by Kim Zetter. It's called Zero Day, and it basically depicts what happened with Stuxnet. Really informative. It's actually really good read. It's not necessarily technical, but just goes to show kind of how cyber warfare was actually built. Another really good one is from Andy Greenberg. It's called sandworm, a new era of cyber war in the hunt for the Kremlin's most dangerous hackers. Another really good read as well. So, I think those are two books, I would say, in the cybersecurity context, that I think are really good reads.
Trevor Freeman 17:29
Nice. Same question. But for a movie or a show, is there a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at?
Jojo Maalouf 17:36
I'm actually really into Yellowstone these days, right? So, I'm gonna give that props.
Trevor Freeman 17:41
Nice. That's a good one. If someone offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Jojo Maalouf 17:48
Good question, I think right now where I am, I'd probably go anywhere, either in the Alps or in the Dolomites, to ski.
Trevor Freeman 17:56
That's awesome. And our last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?
Jojo Maalouf 18:04
To be honest with you, I What really interests me and what I'm really excited about is, think the evolution in change into we are now a technology company, And I think what we're where the energy sector is grow is, is moving towards, is really exciting. You know, I think over the years, it's been a very siloed approach to the way services are driven or given where I find now, its very technology focused, right? And I think that's very exciting times.
Trevor Freeman 18:39
Very cool. Well, JoJo, I really appreciate your time today, and you sharing your insight with us, and thanks for coming on the show.
Jojo Maalouf 18:46
Thank you, Trevor, it's great being here.
Trevor Freeman 18:50
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy@Hydroottawa.com.
The energy transition is a big topic on thinkenergy. But what exactly is it? What does it mean globally, in Canada, and to you as an energy user? In this bite-sized episode, host Trevor Freeman unpacks the what, where, when, and how of the energy transition. From energy production and storage to how electrification is implemented in different communities. Listen in to learn about the nuances shaping the energy landscape, including the economic, political, and technological shifts driving change.
Related links
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydrottawa.com
Hi everyone and welcome back. Okay, so today is going to be a little bit different than normal. I mentioned in our first episode following the summer break that we'd be trying out a few new things, and this is one of them, we're going to periodically mix up the format and deliver kind of a shorter, bite sized episode. Every once in a while, the goal of these episodes will be to provide a little bit of an explainer or context setting information on a topic that either we reference and refer to often, but maybe haven't explicitly explained, or to maybe demystify some aspect of energy in the utility sector that can be overlooked or generally goes unseen from the outside. So for example, you know, what does that line item on my bill actually mean, or something like that? How we fill that shorter time slot may vary, but one of the formats will be just kind of me waxing on, hopefully poetically, hopefully not too mundane about the issue. I promise to keep it as short and succinct as I can think today is going to be probably on the longer side of that short and succinct window, but I will do my best. So what's on Trevor's mind for today? It shouldn't surprise you that it's the energy transition. Obviously, listeners of previous episodes will have heard me use that term probably in almost every episode since I took over the helm here at think energy. I think it's likely that if you're listening to this podcast, you've got a pretty good idea of what we mean by that, or a general sense, at least, but there is some nuance to it that I think is worth picking apart for a few minutes, and I always want to make sure that we are also welcoming to new people into the conversation who maybe don't know what that is, and so this would be kind of a good explainer for that.
So with that rather verbose intro, let us dive in. When we think about the energy transition, we probably mostly think of this ongoing shift to cleaner emissions free energy. So EVs over gas cars, heat pumps over gas furnaces, etcetera. That is definitely part of it. In fact, that's a major part of it. But like most things in life, it's never just as simple as that. The Energy Transition is a truly fundamental shift in our global relationship with energy, which includes not just what makes our cars go, but everything from how, where and when we generate energy, how, where and when we store and use energy, how we pay for the energy we use, how we finance and pay for energy projects and the systems that we need to do all the things I just mentioned, it will include a shift in what policies and regulatory guidelines and barriers we put in place to protect the public, but that also encourage change that we want to see happen to allow for innovation and advancement. It isn't completely throwing out everything we have and starting from scratch, although some things will disappear, like coal fired electricity generation, for example, but in a lot of areas, it is building on what we've already got at a pace that we haven't seen before, at least in a very long time. And I think that's a key point here. One of the things that makes the energy transition a change worth noting is the pace of change that we will see. Things have never really been static in the world of energy, from that time when our earliest ancestors first sparked that fire, this is the poetic part that I mentioned earlier, our relationship to energy has never really stood still. But other than a few significant events, the upward trend in sophistication and growth and scope has been fairly linear, gradual, one step after the other, etcetera. It's those exceptions, though, those things that are different from that gradual, linear growth that probably most closely resemble this period of change that has started that we're calling the energy transition. Take the Industrial Revolution, for example. For decades and centuries prior, there had been gradual improvements in how we got around or how we worked the fields. Let's say, you know, first by hand, then with tools, maybe a better plow came along, and we started using a horse or an oxen to pull that plow, et cetera. Then along comes the steam engine, and all of a sudden, things take off like never before. It wasn't just a matter of swapping out a horse for an engine. It may have started there, but entire economies and aspects of society changed or sprang up where they didn't exist before one change rolls into another and another in quick succession, and before too long, things that couldn't be imagined only decades before are suddenly a reality. To a degree, that's what we're looking at today with the energy transition. How far that change goes remains to be seen, but it's pretty clear that we have begun one of those disruptive periods of change that will be looked back on as a major turning point. So yes, the energy transition is about shifting away from greenhouse gas emitting fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, etcetera, to renewable, non-emitting energy sources, solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, etcetera. But it's also so much more. The World Energy Council Secretary General and CEO Angela Wilkinson put it best when she said, we're actually looking not at one energy transition, but multiple transitions plural, because there are many diverse pathways to a sustainable energy future. So, there is the aforementioned shift away from fossil fuels for space, water, heating and transportation. A very large portion of that fuel switch will be to electricity, which means we also need to decarbonize how we produce electricity. Phase out coal, nearly all-natural gas, the remaining diesel generation in favor of non-emitting energy sources that I just mentioned. We will also see more distributed energy resources, so things like small scale solar and battery storage and more programs like demand response to manage when we use energy. And there are also other items that I highlighted at the beginning, our financial mechanisms, our regulatory and policy framework, all the interconnected pieces that go along with this. Now, if you'll permit me just a couple more minutes, I do want to touch on a few more aspects of this. The first is, why? Why is this transition happening? One major, overwhelming driver, of course, is the climate crisis. This isn't the episode to fully pick that apart and define it, but suffice to say, climate change is and will continue to be, a signature global crisis of this century, and it is driven primarily by fossil fuel usage, the energy transition and all its various aspects and parts, is a big part of the strategy to slow and stop Climate change and to limit its impacts to what is already baked in. But other things are driving this too. As we continue to digitize our lives, another major disruptive change that probably is worth its own conversation, and as tools like AI evolve, our need for energy is growing faster than ever. We can't meet those needs with the business-as-usual approach. The energy transition helps us deal with this rising demand, regardless of the reason, whether it's for electrification or large, dense data centers that are needed to run things like AI. There are also considerations like energy security and the benefits of decentralizing at least some of our energy sources. And finally, air quality considerations are a major push to reduce harmful emissions and replace that energy with clean, non emitting sources. Listeners in Ontario who are say around my tenure as kind of that oldest millennial age group will remember smog days in Ontario, which no longer exists, mostly because we moved away from coal fired generation, a bit over a decade ago. There are other parts of the world that still see really poor air quality, and shifting away from fossil fuel combustion will go a long, long way to addressing that. Now, the energy transition is not all sunshine and grassy meadows. It is a hard journey with challenges and obstacles to overcome. To start with, time is tight, and that is an understatement. We lost our chance, which could have started as early as 50 years ago, for this to be a slow and easy process, we need to move fast. Our climate is changing rapidly around us, and we are not on track to reduce emissions at the pace we need to. We haven't been keeping up with past targets and goals for reductions, and so we really need to pick up the pace. And like I mentioned earlier, even without climate change, our need for energy is growing at an exponential pace. In Canada, we're fortunate in that we have a strong foundation with a relatively decarbonized grid already, so about 80% carbon free nationally, and a diverse mix of hydro, nuclear and renewables like wind and solar. But it's still going to take quite a lot of effort to decarbonize that remaining 20% at a time when, as I keep mentioning, demand is increasing rapidly. In Ontario, our electricity system operator, the IESO, just updated their future demand projections to show that provincial demand will be 75% more or less higher by 2050 than it is today. This means we also need to invest in our grid infrastructure to ensure it can handle the increased load, as well as utilizing things like decentralized generation and storage to ensure we don't over build not to mention making sure we can handle more extreme weather. Just to give you a sense of what all that means, I'll remind you of an episode we did a few months ago with Jenna Gillis, Hydro, Ottawa's manager of distribution system integration, about our grid modernization roadmap, which is a 10-year plan to modernize our grid to make sure it can support. Support the kinds of things we're talking about here today. And I encourage you to go back and have a listen to that if you haven't already. To zoom out a bit, the energy transition is also very political as any major disrupter in society would be. There are differing viewpoints on the tools and tactics, the carrots and sticks, if you will, with which to enable change, differing viewpoints about the pace of change that we should be aiming for, and differing viewpoints even about where we ultimately end up when it comes to energy, and that is true within each jurisdiction, so within Ontario and within Canada and between jurisdictions at a more geopolitical level. So, to find alignment to make progress in these areas, these are not easy tasks. Have a listen to my earlier episode with Nicholas Rivers from the University of Ottawa for more thoughts on that and on the role that governments and policy makers can and should be playing. Now, as urgent as the need for change is, as exciting as the benefits might be, and as appealing as the vision for a smart, clean, connected energy future can appear, we can't just plow ahead without also considering the consequences and impacts of our choices. The energy transition will be disruptive, and there are a lot of good things about that, but let's not forget the root of that word, disruption, disturbance, things we know today, systems we have today will be upended, will need to change and adapt and quickly, and there are people who rely on those systems. In Canada, we have an entire industry, a substantial portion of our economy, that is associated with fossil fuel extraction and processing, and that's just one example for the transition to work and to actually move forward, it has to be fair and equitable and just for everyone. People and communities whose livelihoods are going to be upended need to be supported. The energy transition is also not free. Another massive understatement. All this change that I've been talking about here costs a lot of money. For Canada to reach net zero by 2050 it could require an estimated $2 trillion in investment. Now there are a lot of benefits to that, absolutely. I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile investment, but it's worth thinking about. So, we already have affordability challenges for many of our neighbors. We have institutions like healthcare, education and housing struggling to hold up under the pressure of the pandemic that we just experienced, inflation, supply chain issues, underfunding, all these different things. This transition has to happen in a way that, again, allows everyone to benefit and participate in it, regardless of their income levels, in a way that doesn't cause those other institutions to crack and crumble.
You'll notice I'm not talking any specific solutions to this, and I guess that's the benefit of sitting in the host chair. I get to bring other smart people on to talk about that. But I do want to highlight that in this little talk here. Going back to the World Energy Council that I mentioned earlier, they also note the concept of the energy quadrilemma. So as in more than a dilemma, a quadrilemma. What they mean by that is that the transition needs to be just, so ensure fairness for everyone through the process needs to be orderly, so making sure that we approach things in a structured and efficient manner. It needs to be inclusive, so ensuring that everyone has an equal voice in the decision-making process, and it needs to be equitable, making sure that everyone has access to affordable, reliable and clean energy. It's worth noting here that our current system doesn't yet provide this. In my previous episode with Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada, we talked about the number of rural and remote Canadians relying on diesel generators, for example, for their energy needs, because they're not connected to a grid and they don't enjoy all the benefits that come with that not everyone has the same access to energy across the country today, and that is its own challenge that needs to be solved as we go through this energy transition.
So, as we get close to wrapping this up, let's talk about the how, what will enable us to realize this transition that we've been talking about. To start with, we need to scale up. We have heat pumps, EVs, renewable generation and battery storage today, those are major pieces in the energy transition, but we need more can we need it faster, and most of all, we need it cheaper. We've seen this drop in costs for things like solar already. If you look at the cost of solar from, you know, let's say 15, 10, five years ago to now, it's dropped precipitously. But we need that across all aspects of the transition. And this happens naturally in some cases, but we also need to speed it along with both policy and market forces. So the more demand for heat pumps, the more get made, the cheaper it is to make them. We need public awareness. We need to collectively recognize the importance and urgency for action so that we can make decisions whether that's what vehicle that. Or what project to tackle in our homes, or what we demand of our political representation that will drive us in the right direction. On that note, we need clear and consistent policy from all levels of government that will support and encourage the energy transition, and we need the appropriate levels of investment from our various levels of government to make this transition possible, Again, listen to my conversation with Nicholas rivers for more thoughts on what that might look like. And we need leadership, leadership from our governments, but we also need to look at ourselves as how can we show leadership Canada and Canadians can punch above our weight class, so to speak, by setting an example for others to follow, and by developing policies, programs and technologies, even to serve and guide others. So, to wrap it up, as I come to a close here, the energy transition is a little bit bigger than just fuel switching. It definitely is that, but it's more. It's a long, tough road, but we're on it no matter what it started, and it will continue, and it's also full of exciting possibilities and opportunities.
Now, I hope this summary wasn't too vague. That was, it was meant to be high level, and again, I'm going to play the host card here and point to past and future episodes to dive deeper into specific aspects of this. But what I will say is that I'd love to hear from you. If you have thoughts about what we cover on the show, what we're not covering that you think we should be reach out to us. Thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, I'd love to hear from you. Love to get your thoughts on this. Feel free to let us know what you think about this kind of format. If this works for you and you want to see kind of more of these explainers. Great. That's awesome. If you want to reach out to us and say, I think that was maybe just a little bit too much, Trevor, I get it. That's okay. I won't be offended or too offended. Now, I normally wrap up my episodes with a series of questions for my guests. Since I don't have a guest today, I won't make you listen to me sharing all of my answers, but I will leave you with a book recommendation. And I have to be honest here, I'm taking a rather dangerous step of recommending a book that I haven't actually read yet, but it is next on my list when I finish what I'm reading now, and it came highly recommended to me, and I'm really excited to read it. It's a book called, What if we get it right by Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. It's a collection of essays and poetry and conversations that really gives some optimism about what could be when it comes to climate change and the energy transition, it is an exercise in not letting the sometimes-disheartening aspects of the climate crisis keep us from dreaming about the possible and to have hope and faith in the future that we can solve these challenges, we can realize the benefits of this energy transition that we talk about and that we know are possible. So, I'm really excited to read it soon, hopefully it lives up to my recommendation and the recommendation that was given to me for it when I wanted to let you know about it as well.
So thank you, as always, for joining. Thank you for letting me and the team here try out this different format. Definitely let us know what you think about it, and keep checking back in for more great conversations with great leaders in the energy world. I promise I will be bringing guests back onto the show. It won't just be me talking. There will be some great ones coming up. So, thanks very much, and check back next time.
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@HydroOttawa.com
The climate crisis is a global challenge. But there isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution. While urban centres are driving discussions on electrification and policy, rural and remote communities, including many Indigenous areas, face distinct energy realities. Gemma Pinchin from QUEST Canada joins thinkenergy to share how these communities can engage in the energy transition equitably and sustainably. Listen to episode 143 to learn about the diverse approaches to decarbonization in different global contexts.
Related links
● QUEST Canada: https://questcanada.org/
● QUEST Canada Net Zero Communities Accelerator Program: https://questcanada.org/nca/
● QUEST Canada on X: https://twitter.com/questcanada
● QUEST Canada on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@QUESTtalks
● Gemma Pinchin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemma-pinchin/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroanawat.com, everyone, welcome back. Climate change is truly a global issue, and that is true in really every sense of that word. I mean. Carbon emissions come from literally everywhere humans live in the world. Climate impacts are felt across the globe, with no regards to borders, and as a result, the ongoing energy transition, which is one of the main tools we're using to address the climate crisis, also needs to be global, unfortunately, and as I've talked about several times on this show and a bunch of different contexts, there's really no overarching global solution that can be applied everywhere. Of course, electrification is one of the main strategies in most cases, and that can be applied in all different parts of the world, but exactly how electrification is deployed, what technology is going to be used in, what specific use cases, what government policies are going to work. There is by no means a one size fits all approach to those questions. Local context is so important when it comes to the energy transition, and that's a big part about what today's conversation is about. I'm going to assume that, like me, most not all, but most listeners of this show live in or adjacent to or very near an urban center of some sort. I certainly do. I live in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, as such, when we talk about the various technologies or policies or approaches, we probably do so with an urban lens. The things that we're thinking of when we're talking about this stuff is in that kind of urban context. But that isn't everybody's reality. Rural and remote communities have a very different relationship with energy than urban centers in Canada, at least, there are over 280 communities which are home to around 200,000 people who aren't connected to the broader electrical or natural gas grid. The process of decarbonization represents unique challenges for these communities and for these Canadians who get their energy in a very different way from the rest of us. And another aspect of this is that there are also often overlaps between what I'm referring to here as rural and remote communities and indigenous communities, and proper, meaningful engagement with indigenous communities is an extremely important step in making sure that the energy transition is equitable and just for everyone, not to mention as the original stewards of the land most of us live on, we can learn a lot from indigenous communities about how we can exist on this land in a way that is not detrimental to the land and to our own health and well-being. To that end, I'm really excited today to have Gemma Pinchin from Quest Canada on the show to help us pull this apart a little bit and understand this context a bit better. Gemma is a senior lead of research and projects at Quest, and is responsible for the motivating Net Zero action and rural and remote communities research project. Gemma Pinchin, welcome to the show.
Gemma Pinchin 03:42
Thank you so much for having me.
Trevor Freeman 03:44
So why don't we start Gemma by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be working in the role you're in, and also what quest Canada does.
Gemma Pinchin 03:54
Sure. Yeah. So I come from a background in research and policy and kind of like a number of areas. Most recently, I was working with the IESO. I was working on their indigenous relations team, really, in indigenous energy planning and capacity building. So, I have a master's in globalization and international development, and a bachelor's in history. So, a bit of a varied background. I've sort of worked in a bunch of roles, but I've always sort of had an interest in the climate crisis and how communities are really facing that and dealing with that. So, I joined quest in early 2023 and I was really drawn to their mission. It was really inspiring for me. So, the quest is a national charity that focuses on helping communities on their pathway towards net zero. So, they've been around since 2007 and they facilitate connections, empower community champions and advise decision makers. So, we really, we develop tools and resources and convene a variety of working. Groups and also provide advice to decision makers. So, Quest's mission, the one that I was inspired by, is to encourage, assist and enable communities to contribute to Canada's net zero goals.
Trevor Freeman 05:13
And your particular focus, if I'm not mistaken, is on sort of rural and remote communities. How did you, why is that your focus? How did you end up there?
Gemma Pinchin 05:21
Yeah, so through Quests projects, particularly the net zero community accelerator, which works with communities to the end goal is to create community energy and emissions plan we saw, and also through policy work and those kinds of pieces, we saw that there was the net zero transition is sort of chugging along, but there's kind of been a gap. The transition tends to focus more on the urban context. You know, urban population centers, the big cities, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, those kinds of places and that we saw as leaving out a really big chunk of Canadians. I think the statistic off the top of my head is 1/5 of Canadians live in rural and remote places. So, it's not a small statistic. So, we wanted to make sure that as the net zero transition was moving along and progressing that this large group of Canadians weren't forgotten about and the net zero transition is going to rely, and has been relying on rural land, rural populations, you know, to house Renewable Energy for food production as well as carbon sequestration. So, leaving this big group of people out is just kind of inconceivable, I guess. And what quests saw was that this was happening. So, we started this research project to sort of make sure that those voices were being heard and considered as Canada moves through the net zero transition?
Trevor Freeman 07:03
Great. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of the reasons why I'm excited to have you on the show today is to talk about that. And as I mentioned in the intro, even this conversation that I often have on on this show tends to focus more on those kinds of urban centers, or features of the energy transition that are more often found in urban centers. How does the traditional grid interact with our customers, things like that? So, I'm excited for this, for this conversation today, I think it'd be helpful before we really dive into it, to define what is a rural and remote community. So maybe let's start with that. What do you consider a rural and remote community and maybe go into what is unique about their energy needs and priorities compared to those in the urban centers.
Gemma Pinchin 07:49
So, my research will, I've completed a literature review, and then I'll be going on and doing work in communities, work with 15 communities. So, I kind of, at the beginning, I was trying to figure out how to define rural, because it's going to be, or it is currently across Canada research project. So, I was trying to figure out if there is a, you know, standardized definition. But it turned out that every single province had a different province and territory has a different definition of rural or remote, and even stats can in order to be considered a rural community, you have to be under 1000 people. But that felt a little bit too small. When I moved to Canada, I grew up in a rural community that had a population of 3000 and it felt very, very rural. So, I felt that was going to be a bit of a barrier for a lot of rural communities, not all rural communities, but, you know, rural communities have varying different population amounts, and then the population for the remote cities for example, like white horse or Yellowknife. They're considered remote due to how far away they are from everything else, but they have quite large population bases for the territories. So, for the sake of my research, we decided on a population cap of 30,000 which is quite large, but we wanted to be able to include those remote cities if they were willing to be a part of the research. And then I really decided that rural communities were in were best placed to sort of define whether they considered themselves rural. I live in, I live outside of Toronto, so I'm not currently live in a place where I would consider it rural, and I think communities themselves are in the best place to define themselves as rural. So that's kind of, it's a little bit vague, but that's kind of what, what we ended up going with. And then in terms of needs and priorities of these communities. Compared to urban centers, a big one is getting energy to communities, particularly remote communities. A lot of remote communities are reliant on diesel or fossil fuels, still, because getting in Ontario, the grid is fairly clean, but some communities just do not have access to it because they're so far away and so remote. So transportation to rural communities is probably one of the biggest differences, I guess. And then the types of emissions are also very, very different. So urban centers, it tends to be, you know, buildings and like cars and things like that. Whereas for rural centers, there's not as many buildings, obviously. So they have transportation to and from is a really big one, and then from the big sectors, so agriculture, mining, those kinds of pieces. Yeah, those are kind of the biggest differences, I would say.
Trevor Freeman 10:58
And as all the examples you gave were kind of in the Canadian context, and that's going to be the basis of going to be the basis of most of our conversation today, but I do know that you did spend some time looking at the international context, and obviously rural and remote living is not a uniquely Canadian thing. Of course. What did you learn through your kind of literature review on energy challenges internationally?
Gemma Pinchin 11:21
Yeah, so for this research, I hoped to sort of just focus on the Canadian context when I just started out, but there wasn't as much readily available literature I would be able to base an entire literature review on. So, while this is sort of a great justification for my ongoing research to be able to do a literature review. It was a little bit frustrating, so I decided to open it up to the usual comparator countries, so the UK, the US, Australia, and then Europe more broadly. And I found that the energy challenges and opportunities, I found that they were quite similar, like, even in the UK. I grew up in the UK, so I'm pretty aware of the sort of differences geographically between Canada and the UK, but everything's much closer together. But still, there is still this, like, big rural, urban divide, and there's still, like, remote communities in the UK, even though that they're not Canada remote, but you know they're still, they're still quite remote when you sort of apply a UK context to it, the biggest challenges and opportunities that I saw was that there needs to be a real consideration for rural needs and not just apply the same lens as urban needs onto that obviously, though we need to use rural space for renewable energies that's sort of across the board, is going to be something that everybody needs, and the costs of the net zero transition to be a barrier for rural communities. So, something I found a little bit interesting that I hadn't considered before was that for diesel dependent communities, that there was such a high cost associated with diesel fuel that there wasn't any extra money left over to fund the net zero transition. So it was kind of, I'd never really considered it that way, that you're spending all this money on this fuel and that's kind of eating up all of your energy costs. There's nothing left over to be able to fund this transition, and that there's this trust in diesel, because it's been what's been working for however long, for like a small, tiny community in Australia or Canada or the US or wherever. You know, it's kind of nerve wracking to give up that piece that's been working for years and years and years and take a risk on this new technology that might not be as effective in in their perception as how diesel has been.
Trevor Freeman 13:57
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting in that I see a lot of parallels between that context and other contexts, including the urban context of we are comfortable with what we know. We are comfortable with the things that we have seen working and experienced working to get us to work and back, or get the kids to school, or heat our homes Exactly. And as soon as someone starts talking about this new thing that we don't really know that that makes us a bit nervous. So, it's interesting that that that applies regardless of where you are. What are some you know, for a lot of our listeners, I think are probably more familiar with the urban context, what are some misconceptions that you have heard or that you've come across when it comes to the energy needs and capabilities of rural and remote communities.
Gemma Pinchin 14:48
So, I think there's this idea that a one size fits all solution for every community, and that solutions that work in urban centers will work in rural centers, and that. Just not, not the case. For example, something obvious like transportation, my literature review highlighted that within urban centers, the most sustainable option would obviously be public transport. But if you apply that same lens to a rural community, you know, cars are bad, and we shouldn't be using them rural communities. It's almost impossible to be sustainable in net zero because they don't have the public transport option. So in that context, looking at it with a different lens, looking at it with a rural lens, you would look at sort of like consolidating car trips or making sure that services like health care and groceries and you know, the things that we take for granted in urban centers, making sure those are close like they're kept in communities, like a lot of services are kind of moving out of rural communities. And that doesn't necessarily seem like a net zero issue, but when people in those communities have to drive like, three times as long to get to their doctor, that's a huge, you know, emissions issue, you know. And it's just, it was an interesting look at the way that we're even myself, before I was doing this, I was like, well, cars are bad, like, you know, like gas cars aren't great for emissions. But the reality is, for rural communities, they need this transportation that there's no there's no other way for them to get around, and it would be incredibly isolating, and you can't function as a society if you're just stuck in your house, you know. So having that different lens and looking at it in a different context. I think that's really, really important as we move rural communities through this net zero transition.
Trevor Freeman 16:51
Yeah, it highlights a point that I know has been made here before, of the energy transition, regardless of where you are, requires a holistic approach. It requires some pretty nuanced thinking, and I think you're highlighting a really great example of that, of it's not just a piece of technology or it's not just a program that's going to resolve this problem for us, there are sort of cascading impacts of this, and primary health care provider shortage in rural communities is directly correlated to higher emissions in those communities and like, that's an interesting picture to paint and something that's important for us to remember. So, you mentioned this earlier, kind of the stats around how many people actually live-in rural communities, I think you said one in 20. That's over 200,000 people that are kind of not connected to, or this is a different stat I'm pulling here. Sorry. This is the number of people not connected to sort of the traditional electricity grid or to the natural gas grid here in Ontario. Talk us through a little bit more you mentioned, kind of the reliance on diesel in those communities. Talk us through sort of the unique challenges when you're not connected to the electricity grid. You don't have that transmission line coming into your community. What is the role that those traditional fuel sources, like diesel, for example, play in those communities?
Gemma Pinchin 18:12
Well, in those communities that aren't connected to, you know, natural gas or the electricity grid, like diesel used to be their only option. You know, modern life, we need electricity power like we need to power modern life. You can't have a modern existence without some form of power. So, you know, diesel, they are completely reliant on diesel. The ones that aren't connected. I mean, it's frustrating, because these communities do tend to be quite far away from the power grid infrastructure. So it's usually considered economically non-viable to connect those remote communities to the provincial power grids, because these communities are also very small. So, it's a small number of people that you would have to spend all this money for the infrastructure to get, you know, the power lines to them, and Canada, Ontario, Canada, both of them are very big, so there's many communities that exist quite far away from power lines or existing grid infrastructure. So, yeah. So yeah, diesel just, it's kind of been their only option for power to have a modern, modern existence, up until, I would say now, well, recently.
Trevor Freeman 19:27
Yeah, that's a great lead into kind of the next part of this is what comes next, if we're, if we're trying to get off of diesel, for example, for power generation, if, sort of the economics and the feasibility of bringing the traditional power grid to remote communities isn't really feasible. What role do other technologies play? And I'm thinking of obviously, like on site, renewable generation or storage, like, what's the option for these communities?
Gemma Pinchin 19:54
So that would kind of be entirely dependent on each community’s context, I guess what renewable energy would work there. So, on site, renewable energy is obviously one of the better solutions for diesel dependent communities. But what works in one community might not work in another community. So, you know, solar might work really well. You obviously have to have the right amount of sunlight, but then maybe less so in Ontario, but like, tidal energy for a coastal community might work better, you know? So, it's kind of dependent, and that's a big thing that came out of this research, is that there's not going to be a one size fits all. We can't just say all diesel dependent communities are now having a solar micro grid, and that's what's going to happen. Like you can't do that, but I do know of from my previous life working with indigenous energy planning and energy capacity in Ontario, there are some really cool examples of communities that were slash, are diesel dependent, that have implemented solar micro grids or are implementing, I don't know where, where they're at now, but as a way to get off diesel. And it is, there were some really cool projects that I got to kind of have a tiny little part of it was just a really interesting project to lessen their reliance on diesel.
Trevor Freeman 21:19
So you mentioned indigenous communities, and obviously, when we're talking about rural and remote communities, a lot of those are indigenous communities, or have a higher amount of indigenous population. Talk through the importance of indigenous engagement when it comes to planning and implementing projects like renewable energy projects, that's like a whole extra layer of complexity to some of this. Tell us a little bit about that space.
Gemma Pinchin 21:50
Yeah, so any project that touches indigenous land needs to have robust indigenous engagement. It's, it's their land. They need to, need to be engaged and listened to. It's really an issue of decolonization and decolonizing the energy grid, because it's returning that power that should have remained with them all the time. It's returning that to indigenous communities. And I think it's really important from a culturally obviously, to protect indigenous cultural sites and practices, but also from like a protection of the land. I think the statistic is that 80% of all biodiversity is currently protected by indigenous peoples globally. So, the number is huge. And so, if we're going to be doing any sort of work that's potentially disrupting some sort of biodiversity or anything like that. I think having those voices included is really, really important as we try to fight the climate crisis and any engagement with indigenous people and needs to be really robust, like it actually has to go somewhere. You can't just engage with indigenous people and then just go and do whatever you want. You've got to listen and act on what you're hearing. It's important for decolonization and reconciliation and biodiversity and indigenous culture as well.
Trevor Freeman 23:13
I mean, I think it's just highlighting what engagement actually is and what it isn't. And engagement is not going in and doing a really slick presentation on here's the solution, here's what we're going to implement. It's starting the conversation before the solution is developed, and saying, what is the context within which we're working? What are, what is this community bringing in terms of knowledge and experience? And so how can that local knowledge and expertise be sort of integrated into the decision making and really leveraged to identify appropriate solutions? I mean, you talk about that stat of how much of our protected biodiversity is really on indigenous land or indigenous controlled land, there's no question that there's a knowledge and an expertise there that can be leveraged for this talk us through what that looks like in terms of a strategy for resolving some of these energy challenges.
Gemma Pinchin 24:10
Yeah from my research, this could be indigenous communities or non-Indigenous communities. It kind of counts for everything. What I really found was that there was this push to do sort of a top down, bottom-up approach at the same time. So, the local community was really needed to implement the local context like I've been saying, No, there's no one size fits all, so understanding how to implement these solutions locally needs to come from the local context. But at the same time, we do need a national strategy that has the flexibility in order to provide that sort of like umbrella guidance for what what the local context kind of like. Needs to be achieving, but having that flexibility and that openness to allow local communities to figure out what works best for them in that context. And I don't, I don't really know what that that looks like beyond like that vague framework, but I think empowering local communities to have the, you know, the ability to tailor the solutions to their community is really, really important, because we cannot have a one size fits all solution, but we do need that sort of national guidance, otherwise there won't be that empowerment like that. There needs to be some sort of overarching body or government or whatever that looks like to provide that power to communities, because usually they're small communities, they can't just act and go off roguely on their own. So yeah, so really, that top down, bottom-up approach is really important.
Trevor Freeman 25:54
Is this also an opportunity, is the engagement process when it comes to resolving energy challenges, an opportunity for economic growth. For sort of, is it like a vehicle for that? Is it a vehicle for job creation? For example, in these communities?
Gemma Pinchin 26:14
Do you mean engagement in itself, or just the net zero transition?
Trevor Freeman 26:19
I mean, I think both. Yeah, it's like the engagement process and then the implementation and the solutioning process as well.
Gemma Pinchin 26:25
Yeah. So, I definitely think both would be an opportunity for job creation engagement. There would need to be sort of a community contact, which I sort of foresee being a funded role, funded by who? I'm not sure, but having, having that as a, you know, a paid position, I think would be, is really important as well, to bring funds into the community, to really solidify that. You know, energy companies, or whoever's doing the engagement, they're committed to community, building up the community, and then in terms of economic growth from the energy transition, I think this is a huge opportunity for job creation in rural, remote and indigenous communities. I think a key piece of that, though, is that there needs to be training programs for not because, not only do we need to build, you know, these renewable energy structures, we also need to be able to upkeep and maintain them as we're going along. So, you know, once the solar farm, or whatever it is, is built, there needs to be training for communities to be able to provide maintenance to these structures. But and even from a like on a smaller scale, sort of heat pumps, or having people who usually work on furnaces to be trained on how a heat pump works, so they're able to sort of facilitate that net zero transition. On a smaller scale, there needs to be training provided in rural communities, because we're seeing now that like people are wanting to transition over to, say, heat pumps, but there's not anybody locally who has any expertise on what that what that means, or what that looks like, or how, how to install that. There's only the, you know, the furnace guy. There's not in these rural and remote communities and indigenous communities. There's not anybody providing the, I mean, there's, there's no one there that knows how to do it or how to train people on it. So, if we want to capitalize on job creation, then we need to train people in how to do this. There was also, in my literature review, like one of the things, one of the key things that was looked at was, sort of the carbon sequestration and agriculture. And in agriculture, there was this issue that came up where farmers are now expected to not only provide enough food to sustain our society, they're now also expected to have like a plan for carbon sequestration on their land, but without any training or support of what that looks like and how, how that would work with their farm. So making sure that these tactics that we have, we're training the people locally on how to undertake them and how to keep them going.
Trevor Freeman 29:33
it's interesting. I'm having this I don't know what the word is, let's call it flashback. So, I started my career actually working in international development. I worked in rural Zambia. Oh, cool on water and sanitation. And this conversation you and I are having right now mirrors that conversation. This is going back about almost 20 years now. Of the number of you know well-meaning international funders that came. Into rural Zambia or rural Africa or other parts, and bunked down boreholes and wells and pumps to provide clean water, and then walked away. And three months later, a small little part breaks on that pump, and there's no one around to fix it. Yep, you can't use it. There's no supply chain to provide that washer, that not it. It's the it's almost frustrating. I mean, it is frustrating, I shouldn't say almost frustrating that it seems like such a simple, a simple thing to make sure that solutions implemented are supported in the way that a piece of technology needs to be supported, if it's in downtown Toronto, it still needs to be supported out in the rural community as well. And exactly, who better to support it than the people that live there.
Gemma Pinchin 30:48
Exactly, it's also, it also saves money, because, yeah, you don't have to shuttle someone out from the Toronto's of the world into like, five hours. Five hours is minimum. But like, you know, like, five hours outside of the city to be able to work on these, you know, wind turbines or heat pumps or whatever, the technological solution is, building capacity within local communities is always, it's always going to be a benefit.
Trevor Freeman 31:16
I think that the positive thing is that there's a there's this understanding, I think, that we need capacity building across the board. When it comes to the energy transition, we don't have enough heat pump technicians, heat pump installers, people that know how to do solar and storage. So, we already need to solve this problem when it comes to training people, we just need to make sure that includes our rural and rural communities, our indigenous communities, all these things, exactly. So that brings us to an interesting next question, which is, what's the role of the government here in making sure that this energy transition also works for rural and remote communities?
Gemma Pinchin 31:57
Yes, I've touched on this a little bit, but I definitely think that getting back to my umbrella approach, having sort of policy frameworks that work to empower local decision making and local action, I think that's the role of the provincial and federal governments, is what I'm thinking of. And then funding, funding is a huge piece for rural, remote and indigenous communities. Like I said, there's just not any extra, like in my example earlier, about, you know, diesel generation having to pay all that money to get diesel into the community. There's nothing extra to fund any sort of renewable energy technology. So these funding programs are crucial for these small communities to be able to break away from what they've been doing. They're kind of currently just like floating around the status quo. And that's, that's where they're at having funding available is, is a really key part, really key role, sorry, that federal and provincial governments can play. And then I also think training existing, like we just spoke about, but also training specific for people that work in fossil fuel industries. I think if we were going to have a just transition, we can't just leave people who have been working their whole lives on I'm thinking more Alberta, but people who have been working on oil rigs their entire lives, or in the oil and gas industry their entire lives, and now we're saying we need to move away from that, so we can't just abandon those people. So, making sure there's some sort of like retraining programs or anything like that. I think is a really key role for governments to play.
Trevor Freeman 33:44
For anybody out there who's kind of keeping score here, that's another example of the need for holistic like well thought out process and programs. Is not just about plunking a piece of technology and it's about, as you say, exactly, what do we do with folks who are in industries that are declining as a result of the energy transition? Yeah, you mentioned the financial aspect of this and the role that the government can play, you know, in helping get over that initial capital cost burden. Is there a particular structure or approach? Do you think that would uniquely work for rural and remote communities, or is it kind of similar to incentive programs that work across the board no matter where you are?
Gemma Pinchin 34:31
So, I think grant programs are a really great way for rural and remote communities and indigenous communities to be able to access funding for the initial capital cost. And then in terms of structure, I think, something that I've heard a few times now is that making sure that the application, if we're doing sort of a grant structure that I was thinking, or anything that that needs, sort of like an application reporting. Requirements, making sure that those requirements are not so onerous that it deters communities from applying. So, if we're thinking of a tiny community that has one person working on, you know, climate and energy and 12 other things that are on their desk, it doesn't make sense for them to have this like, hugely onerous task of applying, and then if they get it, you know the reporting structure, it's sort of impossible, and it makes it inaccessible. I heard a story of a community who they had to hire and consultant in order to provide a piece of the information that was needed just for the application, that doesn't even guarantee that you're going to get the funding. So not only you might not get the funding, and then you'd be out however much money it took for you to hire that consultant. So that kind of huge the burdensome applications and reporting is not going to work for rural, remote and indigenous communities like the Toronto's can, like they have the money to be able to hire consultants to do those that work, and it doesn't really affect them. But if you have a tiny budget, and it's just you doing this work, having, you know, not having the capacity in house, and then having to pay someone for funding that you may not get, it's just going to prevent people from applying. So having that, yeah, just making sure that the structure is reflecting the realities that exist in rural, remote and indigenous communities, is really important.
Trevor Freeman 36:32
Yeah, and speaking from experience of having applied for funding programs, as well as administering programs Once we've received funding, and that's both in my kind of current life as well as in past life, it can be a really big lift. And obviously there's a role for due diligence and scrutiny and making sure funds are spent effectively. But if it's a barrier for some segments of our society, that's a problem. The other thing I think I'd mention is, like the time it takes sometimes to learn about process apply for this funding. You know, those, those large, urban, sort of entities that have resources, can jump on this stuff really quick, and often by the times the smaller communities or smaller entities get around to it, the funding is all allocated and gone. And so I think protecting, protecting that in the process is pretty critical.
Gemma Pinchin 37:34
Yeah, and having, having specific funding streams that are only for rural and remote communities and indigenous communities, I think is really important as well.
Trevor Freeman 37:45
Yeah, absolutely. So, Gemma, it's, it's great that you have this, this approach and this, this view of of the challenge facing these communities. But obviously there's a lot of stakeholders involved that kind of need to adjust and align and figure this out. How do we make sure that those connections are happening, that all these different stakeholders, be it government or some of the technology or service providers as well as community members? How do we overcome that disconnect when it when it comes to this approach?
Gemma Pinchin 38:18
Yeah, so that's a huge, huge issue that I saw through this research and continue to see and my answer might be a bit fluffy bunny, but I really think that communication is a key thing. I don't think that all of I think the way that we're approaching it right now is very, very siloed, and everyone's kind of just doing their little part, making sure that we have communication between them, I think, is sort of the, the first, most basic step, you know, breaking down those silos and then having structures that support working together. So again, in that, maybe in that umbrella approach, having policies that support people working together, as opposed to having, you know, this, like competition, or, you know, this is my work, and I'm, I don't, I don't need to work with you, because it's not in my, like, exact purview, having, a structural system that makes sure that we're able to break down those silos, because we're not going to get anywhere if we don't. We need to make like we've been talking about, the holistic approach. We need to make sure that all of the stakeholders, and like everybody, is really working on this.
Trevor Freeman 39:39
Yeah, absolutely. What do you think our next steps are? What do you think is the sort of the most critical next step to ensure that we are moving in this direction, that we're actually going to start to see some progress here?
Gemma Pinchin 39:50
So I think in terms of, I mean, for rural and indigenous communities, I definitely think we need more research like what I'm. Doing. I think these are voices that haven't necessarily been heard, and if we're going to have an energy transition, we need to include these voices. And I think the best way to do that is to sort of do research like mine and figure out what their needs are, and how we can how we can progress to that next step. There's, I mean, there's some amazing thinking, specifically of like indigenous organizations that are already doing great work in this, this space, like indigenous clean energy and the Center for Indigenous Environmental Research. So, they, they're already doing this, but just consolidating all of that, that and having people governments actually listen, I think is really, really important. I think, yeah, those voices just need to be heard and listened to. Otherwise, we're not going to get anywhere. It'll be, like you said, like we just putting in technology and then just kind of, like leaving it there, and that's not, it's not going to work. We're not going to get anywhere with that, that sort of approach. So, making sure, you know, local context is understood and local voices are heard.
Trevor Freeman 41:15
Yeah, well, as we kind of wrap our conversation here, I guess, thank you for the work you're doing, and for elevating those voices and making sure that we're pulling, we're pulling that front and center in the conversation of the energy transition. And so, thanks to you and to Quest.
41:31
Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 41:33
So, we always wrap our interviews with a series of questions just to learn a little bit more about you. So, we'll dive right into that. Okay, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Gemma Pinchin 41:45
So, this is my, my favorite book. It's called The Secret Life of Addie LaRue by Victoria Schwab, or V Schwab, and its a, it just, it's a really, it's a novel, and it's a really beautiful look. It's kind of fantasy. There's like a fantasy element, but it's a look at human connection and what it means to be known, and those, those kinds of pieces. And it's really beautifully written. And I just really love it.
Trevor Freeman 42:15
What about a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch?
Gemma Pinchin 42:20
So, there's a French film. It's called Portrait of a Lady on fire, and it's really beautifully done. The sound editing, there's like, no, no. It sounds weird, but there's like no music in the backgrounds, really. But there's pieces where music is played, and it's really poignant, and it's a it's a love story between two women, and it's just, it's really, it's really gorgeous and heartbreaking and all of the things I love.
Trevor Freeman 42:49
Yeah, that sounds awesome. If someone was to offer you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Gemma Pinchin 42:54
I'd go to Japan. That's where my fiancé and I are planning to take our honeymoon. So, we're kind of like looking into that and getting really excited about it. So that's where I would go.
Trevor Freeman 43:07
That's awesome. Who is someone that you admire?
Gemma Pinchin 43:09
My fiancé, she's just the strongest, she's kind. She's really practical, which is a really admirable quality, I think, for me, but also, you know, she's really empathetic, and, yeah, she's just a really magical person.
Trevor Freeman 43:29
Good answer. And to wrap it up, what is something about the energy sector or the energy transition that you are particularly excited about?
Gemma Pinchin 43:36
I'm really excited to see, sort of, the continued empowerment of local communities as we move through the energy transition, and how they're going to be able to move their communities through this climate crisis by looking at things you know, holistically the energy transition, but also, you know, biodiversity, nature based, carbon sequestration, and then also tying in sort of that holistic approach with, you know, healthcare and those pieces to better the community as a whole.
Trevor Freeman 44:09
Well, it'll be nice to as always as all parts of the sector. It's great to see success stories, and it'll be really great to see success stories in the space as well. So exactly, I'm also excited about that. Jeb, I thanks so much for your time today, and thanks for sharing your research with us. And like I said, elevating those voices, I really appreciate it.
Gemma Pinchin 44:29
Thank you for having me on.
Trevor Freeman 44:31
Thanks very much. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com
Who is impacted by energy? We all are. Regardless of our roles, whether we work in the industry or not, we all use energy in some form or another. And we use it everyday. So, when it comes to energy transition, industry leaders must consider the end user. In episode 142 of thinkenergy, Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Handcock of EY Global share how stakeholders and utilities can better understand the consumer energy experience—and, ultimately, how to develop more informed strategies to the energy transition.
Related links
EY Global: https://www.ey.com/en_gl
EY Global ecoEnergy Profile quiz: https://www.ey.com/en_gl/ecoenergy-profile
EY Global on X: https://twitter.com/EYnews
EY Global on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ernstyoung
Greg Guthridge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregguthridge/
Nicholas Handcock on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholashandcock/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Music. Hi. Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Something I try to do on this show is to make sure that we're looking at the energy transition from a number of different perspectives. So, we obviously touch on the technologies that will be part of that transition, whether that's heat pumps or EVs or some of the grid technology that utilities like hydro Ottawa are beginning to roll out to modernize our grid. We also look at the overall governance and policy structure that guides our you know, societal energy decisions, how we choose to go about using energy, making energy, etc., in our society, the role of the various stakeholders on the grid gets touched on understanding kind of who the players are. There's a bit of an education piece here of knowing who all the complex players are in this, in this kind of system. And one thing that we've touched on before that I think is really important to keep bringing to the forefront is the end users of energy. And frankly, that's all of us, no matter what other roles in the transition we might play. We're all end users. We all need to heat our homes and workplaces. We all need to move around in some manner. We need lights, we need to cook, we need to charge our devices. And we don't really want to have to worry about those things. We want that to be smooth and easy and how we as end users of energy are experiencing and interacting with and in some cases, taking a leadership role in the energy transition. That's really important, because we need all those things, and we want all those things to be smooth. It's important for our utility companies to understand and to take that into account when we're planning our and I'm speaking as a member of utility. Now, when we're planning our strategies and programs and products, we need to take into account, how does this impact our end users of energy? How are they going to experience this? So, my talk today is with Greg Guthridge and Nicholas Hancock of EY global. Greg is EY Global's powering utilities customer experience transformation leader and Nicholas leads EY research program that's called navigating the energy transition. Both of them ultimately help various stakeholders, including utilities, better understand consumer values, their preferences and their aspirations for their energy experience, which ideally will lead to more informed strategies and approaches to the energy transition for those decision makers, whether that's at the policy or the regulatory or the kind of utility implementation level. So, I'm really excited to talk to Greg and Nicholas today and hear their insight into the work that they've been doing. Greg and Nicholas, welcome to the show. Thanks, Trevor, great to be here. Thanks for the invitation to share our perspectives today. Sure. So, I always like to start getting to know a little bit from our guests of how they got into the energy space. And Greg not to kind of put you on the spot or embarrass you, but you've been named as one of consulting magazine's 25 consultants for excellence in energy, which is a rather lofty sounding title. I understand. You have several patents in the US for energy efficiency and demand management analytics. Tell us a little bit about your journey and how you came to be in the energy space.
Greg Guthridge 04:00
Yeah. Trevor, it was really interesting my journey. You know, it's, you can think of it a little bit as an accidental process here. I didn't leave college thinking that I would be a consumer person in the energy space. In fact, I also, I thought for a long time that utilities were kind of a boring and dusty part of the energy ecosystem. I wanted to be in marketing or in manufacturing, or someplace, you know, considerably more sexy. But what's interesting is, you know, what an amazing journey into what I believe is kind of the center of the universe. Now, you know, energy is everything for us, and I can't think of a more interesting and dynamic place to be at the moment as we think about how we're going to transition to a cleaner, safer, more secure energy system in the future. So, it's been, it's been fascinating to kind of make my way down this path, but I'm super happy to be right at the center of what I think is one of the most, most critical elements of our society and our economy moving forward.
Trevor Freeman 04:00
Absolutely and my goodness, if, if I ever meet that person who you know 20, 30, years into their career, is doing what they thought they would do at the end of college or university, I feel like I'd strike a gold mine. But now let's pivot over to EY global, and the work that EY does in the energy sector, specifically the role when it comes to the energy transition, tell us a little bit about what EY is doing in that space.
Greg Guthridge 05:39
Oh, Trevor, it's fascinating. EY has really taken a very progressive approach to helping our clients, a broad swath of clients, from industry to manufacturing to energy to utilities, you name it, across the spectrum. Really imagine you know how their capabilities; their value propositions and their customer experience need to evolve. Of course, I I represent the customer element of the EY practice in utilities and in resources, but we have experts that that can help with everything from infrastructure to generation to renewables, to audit and tax and financial services, and you name it. In the customer space, we're really laser focused on helping our clients think about and imagining. You know that if you think about it, the typical utility to date is, is the is the product of over 100 years’ worth of development. Most utilities were formed in the Edison era, many, many years ago, and they have a big challenge on their hands. They've got to find a way to kind of evolve not only their business and operating models, but also their regulatory and their customer experiences to really form fit to the future, and that EY is right at the center of offering a whole gamut of different capabilities across the spectrum, across their value proposition, to help them through that, that transition.
Trevor Freeman 07:15
Now you use the word customer, I assume you're talking about that end user of energy, that end user, of, you know, electricity, in the context of our conversation today is, do you differentiate between sort of that residential user, someone in their home and powering their appliances, versus, you know, medium, commercial business, versus those large, mammoth users at the data center level?
Greg Guthridge 07:39
Yeah, Trevor, I'm glad you brought up the word customer, because we use that word as kind of an overarching term. And let me maybe, if you don't mind, I'll, I'll dive in a little bit more on that, because customer is, is actually, you know, I'll use it on occasion, but it's actually a bit of an old-fashioned term, believe it or not, it's, we try to use the term consumer, or, even better, omni-Sumer, when we talk about the participants in the energy experience moving forward, and we're picking these words carefully, because customer kind of implies a one-way interaction. Consumer implies that you're dealing with a customer or a participant that's two way that's engaging, you know, in a much more active capacity. And then you get into omni-Sumer, which is the what we believe, really the consumer of the future. These are participants that are, you know, multi-channel, Multi Product, multi provider, a many to many kinds of experience. So, you'll hear me use them all interchangeably, but really, what we're trying to convey is that, you know, the good old days of somebody at the end of the value chain just receiving a bill for our energy that they take for granted is disappearing. Now, to your actual question, you know, around, you know, the different strata of consumers. We do think of it in terms of, there's residential customers, you know, the mass market, the people at home, and then we have a number of other sorts of major categories that that we think about. There are small and medium businesses, large, commercial and industrial. There's a category which we call mush, which is municipal and universities and schools and hospitals. And then there's a, you know, kind of new categories of consumers that are forming peer to peer, and prosumer, type of consumers that that are trading energy, you know, you know, they've got, they might have electric vehicles or solar or storage, and they're not just consuming electricity for their own benefit, they're actually selling it back into the grid or to others and becoming more of a business partner along the way. So, the takeaway here is that what used to be a passive one way. Customer experience is now leaning into a much more two way engaged and much more complex consumer experience between the energy provider and their and their participants.
Trevor Freeman 10:14
Yeah, and I don't want to paint the picture that this is unique to the energy space or the utility space, because so many different industries we hear about it all the time are being disrupted by changing technology, changing customer preferences. But I think it's really true in the utility space that as you described, the customer, or the consumer of even 20, 30, years ago, doesn't really exist anymore. Is fast becoming kind of out of date, and that whole landscape is changing drastically as we move forward. And so, all the things that we're going to talk about next are kind of in the context of we're looking forward, and we don't necessarily have a great model in the past to tell us, what is that relationship with a customer going to be 20 30, years down the road, because it's changing so rapidly,
Greg Guthridge 11:02
you betcha,
Trevor Freeman 11:04
just to throw one more one more variable at you, it's not just the different types of customers that a company like EY global is dealing with, because you work across the globe in many different jurisdictions, you're also dealing with different regional challenges when it comes to the energy transition. You know, energy typically is a at least partially or fully regulated sector. You're dealing with different regulatory bodies, different governments. Tell us how you approach that difference. And so obviously, as our listeners know, I'm sitting here in Ontario. Has got a pretty complex regulatory environment. How do you tailor your services or your advice to your customers or to your clients in those different areas?
Greg Guthridge 11:51
Yeah, fascinating question, Trevor, and you're absolutely right. The regulatory models, the products and services, even the consumer bases, they vary dramatically. You know, market by market, country by country, region by region. At EY, we take a kind of a two-pronged approach. The first is that, you know, there's more similarities than there are differences. When you kind of peel back the curtain and you look at the basics, and the basics are, we have to find a way to provide to help our utility clients provide the most effective, affordable and safe and secure, reliable energy. And from a consumer perspective, that really leans in on a couple of key pillars that don't vary anywhere that affordability, value based, cost effectiveness of operations, revenue growth and along the way. Let's make this as engaging as possible for consumers and employees, so the basic building blocks actually don't vary that much around the world. What does vary is whether you're regulated or not your products and services vast differences in the kinds of products and services that really resonate with consumers. And that doesn't just go for regional differences. It also goes for just variations in demographics and other, you know, social kind of variations that you see with consumers. And in that case, EY takes a very, you know, client centric approach. So, we take our building blocks that we believe are fairly universal, and then how we implement those in a particular region or with a particular utility, that becomes a much more unique and custom process, where we work really closely with the client to be as centric as possible in in thinking about for this particular utility in this particular market, what's going to make the best sense and what's your priority? So, it's a bit of a combination of trying to use standard building blocks, but then apply it in the most customized process imaginable.
Trevor Freeman 14:06
Yeah, and then, just speaking from experience, working at the sort of, you know, distribution utility level, right down, I guess you can say on the ground, with the customers. It's then our challenge at the utility to take that insight, to take that learning and figure out how to apply it or how to use it to support our specific customers, consumers, individually. So great, great to break it out like that. Okay, I want to ask you about EY's voices of the energy consumers initiative, and this is some research that you did and trying to help us understand who is out there engaging with energy, and what are they thinking. Trying to profile some of these individuals a little bit. It reminds me of that technology adoption curve that folks may be familiar with, and able to identify where they fall on that curve. So. Tell us about or give us an overview of that, of that initiative, and what you're trying to understand from that.
Greg Guthridge 15:07
Trevor, I'm going to start the response to this, and then I'm going to hand it over to Nicholas Hancock, who leads our research. To give a bit more of some color commentary on how we structured our research. But to start up with we really about four or five years ago, we started to really think about the supply and demand of the energy transition. And a lot of focus around the world is on the supply side, building the infrastructure, building in new renewable and green and sustainable sources, getting all of the technology to get cleaner power from one place to another, from an engineering perspective. And what we really started to realize is that as part of the energy transition, if you think about it, we're trying to do a generation of change in just a couple of decades. And on the demand side of this equation, we've got a bunch of very complex consumers, consumers that you know interact and behave irrationally with different behaviors. Some will be very excited about the energy transition. Others will be very reticent, and everything in between, and so in order for the energy transition to accelerate and to achieve the benefits that we're all looking for, we need to find a way to engage the consumer in ways which, frankly, are going to really push the envelope with consumers. So we started our research program, and Nicholas Hancock, who's on, uh, has been leading the charge. And I think Nick, if you don't mind, can you give us a quick overview on the global nature of the research and how we've approached it?
Nicholas Handcock 16:52
Yeah, absolutely. So we started our research program about three years ago, really trying to take a global view, mixing regions that are both, some of them really leading out there on the front edges of the energy transition. So, we've got countries, for example, like Sweden, that are, you know, kind of further down the path as well as, you know, North America, which is, I would say, a little bit more in the middle. And then we've got some countries that are maybe lagging or taking their own paths in the energy transition. We've included countries like China, Singapore. We included Indonesia last year. So really a global view of what are consumers kind of thinking in terms of how they approach the energy transition, what sort of products and services are they interested in, and what are the values and preferences that they bring to it when it comes to their energy providers, but also a broader ecosystem of providers that we see emerging out there, who are they really interested in turning to when it comes to advice, when it comes to learning about solutions, purchasing them, and even things like, for example, control over solutions in the home, which, when it comes to, you know, energy, flexibility in the future is really important. We've been exploring how do different consumers approach and feel about this. And so, what we did is we, develop a survey, we're entering our fourth year of doing that. Now we work with a third party to do those surveys online across the globe. So, it is sort of an independent third party that helps us to perform those and then we take those results back and take a look at what we see. And to your point, Trevor around, sort of the voices of the transition we've been looking at, how do some of those different groups break out? What are the different values of different aspects of those consumers out there? Because even sitting around the dinner table, I'm sure everybody can feel we don't all have the same opinions when it comes to energy, and even more so when it starts to come to things like changes to your home or changes to your vehicles. So that's really what we've been exploring for the last number of years.
Trevor Freeman 18:41
Yeah, great. So, you've identified five different, let's call them archetypes or types, you know, profiles, if you will. You call them your eco energy profiles. Can you walk us through each of the five and give us a little summary of you know who that person is, or who that individual is that fits within that profile?
Greg Guthridge 19:01
Sure. Trevor. You know what we did is, having looked at all these different markets, we found some pretty interesting similarities, and the percentages of the population that fit into these five categories, it varies quite significantly, market by market, country by country, geography by geography, but there is some there's a way for us to more simply think about a incredibly complex, fragmented, distributed customer base, residential mass market customer base, into what we think are really simply five different categories. And we the organization of these five categories. We've thought about them from a behavioral perspective, from a value from you know, what's their interests, and how do they plan to engage? And sort of in sequence here, I'll talk about the five, and I'll put them in the order of from most active to least active. I'll describe each of these. And the key thing here to keep in mind is that there's no wrong place to be as a residential customer. And you can actually flip around. You can move from one place to another almost overnight. So, it's quite a fluid approach here. But the first category is what we call the energy champions. They're the savvy customers. They're actually the customers that have been the first to move and the ones that we see in the news already. They're probably already using new energy products and services in their home. They might have solar on the roof. They could potentially have storage. They might already be using an electric vehicle. We make fun of this category a little bit. They're usually the ones that pre order their iPhone. They might already have a have a have an interest in the new Tesla truck or some other you know, device. They're absolutely the innovators. They're the early movers, and they're interested in spending time researching. They're going to pay attention to where their energy source is coming from, and they're going to be quite active. So those are the energy champions. The next category is what we call the energy enthusiasts, and this is actually the one that that we have to pay the most attention to. They're the fast followers. They're the energy conscious category. And when they when they observe what the champions are doing, and when they get a bit more comfortable and they start to move, they actually will influence the whole market. And as the enthusiasts maybe slightly a little more cautious, but they're also the fast followers, so once they can see the value proposition, once they're convinced that the technologies and capabilities are for real, then they're going to move. They may not pre order their iPhone, but they're probably pretty close in terms of thinking about how they're going to advance into the energy market. The next category is the novice category, or the agnostics. And what's interesting about these this category is this segment of customers or consumers. They they're actually, you know, pretty passive. They can see the value proposition. They can see that there's, there's a lot of people taking interest in it, but for a number of different reasons, they're not moving. They're very novice, they're very they're very agnostic, and it's because they're starting to think about other things, like, well, all right, I can see that I can save money, or I can do something that will improve the environment, but it's just going to take too much time, or I have other priorities or whatever. So as a as an industry, we need to find a way to kind of activate and excite. We need to make it as effortless and frictionless as possible for this category of consumers to move, and they will move, and they will do things, but they're, they're just influenced by a whole lot of other variables that, that you know, that that they believe, are a higher priority. The fourth category is what we call the bystanders, or the skeptics, and they are the ones that are a little bit they're not, they're a bit mistrusting, frankly, of the messaging around the energy transition, around sustainability or environmental and they're probably going to take a fairly skeptic approach to is this for real? Is it really going to provide me benefit? Is it really going to, you know, advance my personal capabilities? And so, what's interesting about this group is they're, they're actually very interested in new energy products and services, but for different reasons. So, they're going to want, you know, more control. They're going to want, maybe, off grid capabilities. And so, they, they're actually as interested as the others, but the way you approach them is going to be very, very different. And the final category are the allies. And this is a, you know, energy is a household necessity. And this category is very dependent. There they might have, you know, income challenges. They might have other challenges that that that we have to look after. It is a critical household service that we provide, and we need to make sure that we look after, you know, the low income, the vulnerable, the medical dependencies that you find in the allies or the dependent category. So, the range of consumers across these five will vary. We've got a great little quiz that you can take out there on ey.com or you can go out and answer some questions, and it'll tell you which kind of consumer you are today. But it's yeah, we see that most consumers will fit into one of these five categories and then move from there, depending on what's happening in their life. Experiences.
Trevor Freeman 25:02
I agree. I'm glad you brought up that quiz, because I know I spent a bit of time going through it and just reading the descriptions. I was pretty sure I knew where I fit in that, and the quiz kind of made me realize, yeah, it can change from time to time. It can change from answer to answer, and depending on what it is. So, it's interesting. And for our listeners, if you have a chance, check it out. You can just, I don't know, Google EY eco energy profiles, and it'll come up, I'm sure. Thanks for explaining that, Greg. And my next question is, why? Why does it help us to have these profiles in mind as we approach the energy transition as the utility industry, as energy providers out there in the sector?
Greg Guthridge 25:44
Oh, good question. Trevor, yeah. What's the point of all of this? Why? What are we trying to do? And here's the thing, we can't approach the consumer base as one homogenous group of people. That's insane, if you think about it. No other industry would do that there that you have, we have to target our messaging, our value propositions, even our customer interaction channels, so that we can appeal to the lifestyles and the interests and the behaviors and the overall approach for each of these different customers. So, a spray and pray one size all approach won't work. What we need to do instead is be as tailored as we can. And what we're suggesting is we don't have to we don't have to go crazy here. We don't have to have hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of customer segments. We can really gravitate around five that really cover 80% of the customer base very, very well, and this will help the utility in many ways. It will help them think about and target their programs, their products, their services, so that they're not wasting a lot of time and effort promoting to one customer base or one segment something that just isn't going to resonate, they can start to vary their propositions and their interactions for products, programs and services accordingly. We think it'll help save money, and it will help the effectiveness of the targeting with these customer bases in a much more thoughtful manner.
Trevor Freeman 27:21
Great during your research. Did anything really jump out at you as notable or surprising, you know, unexpected when it comes to those, those beliefs or that, those values that people hold when it comes to energy? Did anything really stick out, as you know, worth noting?
Greg Guthridge 27:39
Great question, and there's a couple of observations that we've had in the research that that sort of drift to the top fairly quickly. The first is that sustainability and environmental messaging only really applies to a third of consumers. The majority of consumers are actually much more motivated by other creature comforts when they're when they're buying products and services. And so, while it's an it's important for us to, for us, for the industry, to share environmental and sustainable products and services and the benefits of those we also need to augment that with other buyer values that the actually the majority of customers still prioritize. And this is, you know, convenience, comfort, control, price, affordability, reliability, those are the bedrocks. And what we found is just leading, just leading with a sustainable message probably is limiting the appeal of the products and services. And so, if we can make sure that we always really kind of tailor our messaging with a broad swath of buyer values, we're probably going to appeal to more consumers. So that's the first thing that we found relatively surprising, and it doesn't, it's not actually surprising, if you think about it, because, you know, environmental and sustainable messages is really kind of an intangible benefit for most people. It's and what we need to do is really find ways to be much more concrete and tangible and real around benefits that customers can touch and feel and smell immediately in that as they make their investments in their energy experience. That's the first thing. The second is that when we look at the consumer base, we need to remind ourselves that the old guard, the you know, the Generation X and the generation Ys are now being replaced with the millennials and generation zeds, and they want something different from their energy provider. They're not particularly in the space where they're going to benefit from the same things that the generations previous to them. And they're going to want more subscription based pre pavement pay as you go, kind of capabilities. They're going to be much more digital in their interactions. And they're, you know, we need to make sure that we're designing the energy experience of the future for the future, and not for the traditional segments of or, you know, age stratification that we've got in the past. So, we need to hand the baton over to the millennials and the generations that who will ultimately decide the success of the energy transition.
Trevor Freeman 30:33
Yeah, I think it really does highlight the need, you know, both of those kinds of last two explanations, the need for us and the utility sector to really be empathetic to who our customers are and to what they're thinking and how they approach things. And we've talked before on this show about not just holding our own values and approaching things with our own values, but understanding what our customers values are and kind of meeting them where they're at. And I think your research just highlights the importance of that as well. You also wrote an article where you noted that most energy consumers kind of feel like they're already doing everything they can to shift their behaviors and habits when it comes to energy consumption. And that's not to say that they don't recognize there's more that can be done, but they feel like they are giving it their all. You know, they can't afford to do more, or they don't have the time to do more that they're kind of maxed out. You know, 70% of, I think, respondents to your to your survey, said that they're not willing to spend any more time or money to do more. And you've come up with these three A's of energy, and I'd like you to talk us through what those three A's are?
Greg Guthridge 31:43
Sure. Trevor, yeah, definitely. We it's consumers are telling us that. You know, based on their current environment, their current economics, their household experience, that they're pretty much doing everything they can. If you take that eco score, you'll find out pretty quickly that there's all kinds of things that we're expecting consumers to do. Consumers really do. Need to change their lifestyle. Businesses need to change their business practices in ways that are really going to push the envelope beyond most people's comfort zone. So we've got a bit of a challenge here, which is the research is clear. Consumers are saying we're already doing everything we can, and we can see that there's all kinds of things that that we still need to do up and down the value chain. I'm going to hand this back over to Nicholas to give us a little bit more of an overview of the three A's and how we use the three A's and thinking about how we're going to appeal to consumers in a much more thoughtful way. So over to you. Nicholas,
Nicholas Handcock 32:45
Thanks, Greg. Yeah, the three A's is something that is really what's the foundation of the energy experience to really bring along everybody. And I think one of the key ones we mentioned a little bit here is affordability, and it's come up in our survey. Is increasingly important in the last couple of years, as we've seen practically across the globe. Prices of everything have gone up, but at prices of energy have also gone up, and we see a lot of consumers saying that they're feeling quite stretched when it comes to their home bills and their energy bills. And in fact, most people say they can't even absorb a 10% increase in their energy costs. And so affordability is kind of on edge and on top of people's minds. But then we also see consumers really interested in things like prepaid energy or more subscription based energy type services. So I think you know, when it comes to affordability, we're not always able to lower the prices that there is a fact that energy requires an investment, but there are maybe more innovative and creative ways that we can work with consumers to help them manage that affordability. And that's one of the key points, is, how do we think about that in new and different ways and get more creative and work with our regulators to really to do that? The second piece of the second A is access. And, you know, access to the products and services, access to the benefits of the energy transition, have been maybe rather narrow. To date, there's been a smaller group of folks who have been able to afford an electric vehicle or afford to put solar or battery storage on their homes or install a heat pump, and start to see some of the savings. And what we see is a lot of consumers are starting to say that they're feeling a bit left behind by the solutions that are out there today in the energy transition. So when it comes to access, there's an idea of kind of equity, and how do we make this a bit more equitable and have solutions available to all? And again, I think it requires a bit more creativity. Some of some things like community solar or even community wind farms that we see popping up in the UK, are interesting solutions to help more people come along, and then you've got a lot of subsidies or rebates and things available, but not everybody knows about those so there's a role to play to help educate consumers, make sure they're aware of it, but also just make it an easy experience for them to access those things, because we see that that can often be a challenging experience. And then the final one, Greg, you mentioned appeal. That's our final A which is, how do we actually these different kinds of consumers out there that we've. On the residential side, but we've also got small, medium businesses, which are very diverse across different sectors, and then on the commercial, industrial side, different types of companies looking for really different kinds of solutions to achieve their goals. And how do we actually appeal to all of these different organizations and customers? And you know what it is that's important, is that, and you said it, Trevor, how do we appeal to the values that they've got to really what they're looking for in terms of outcomes, and it's going to be different for everybody. So it requires a much more targeted and tailored approach to thinking about consumers and that empathy to really understand what's important to them, what's important to their business, and what's important to kind of the bottom line for those large business customers as well, and make it really you know, appealing energy can be fun. We see it in some other markets that you know, for example, power shop in New Zealand's always one of my favorites. They're really a fun brand that's all about prepay energy and a digital customer experience with really fun social media. How do we start to make it fun, for example, for consumers who do want to engage, and how do we make it just dead simple and set and forget for consumers that want it that way as well. So that's really the three A's that we see as the foundation of this future energy experience.
Trevor Freeman 36:07
Thanks for that, Nicholas, I appreciate it, and I think that it kind of leads into the next question that I have. You've already addressed it a little bit, but you also talk about how energy providers are really good at investing in technology. We're good at knowing kind of, let's call it the nuts and bolts, or the poles and wires of energy. We know how to get those electrons, in the case of electricity, out to our consumers. And as we look at the energy transition, there's almost this, like knee jerk reaction to say, Yeah, okay, well, more poles, more wires, more transformers. But there's this whole human element of the energy transition that also needs attention and needs to be invested in. Can you expand a little bit on that human element, and how utilities and energy stakeholders can kind of lean into that to help address some of these challenges?
Greg Guthridge 37:00
Oh, Trevor, great question. And you know, if you think about it, energy is, is it's taken for granted, for by most people, it's, it's, it's just there. And when it's not there, you become incredibly irrational. So you switch from being rational to irrational in record time at the very moment, but your power's out. And there is another interesting element to energy it. If you think about if you look at customer interactions, 70% of customer interactions are actually negative with their utility. And it's not, it's not the utility's fault. Usually, it's just a negative experience. My power is out. I can't pay my bill. I'm moving house, which is one of the top 10 most stressful events in people's lives. All of these thing’s kind of add up to, you know, a negative and irrational interaction around energy. It's when it's on and it's working and it's affordable, great, no problem. But when anything goes wrong, you see consumers kind of switch to being quite irrational, very, very quickly. And what's interesting is, if you think about the customer experience, and I don't you know, historically, it's we've designed this, you know, with engineers and financiers involved in the process. And it's, it is, it's very methodical, and it's, it's very logical, but is it really suited for irrational consumer behavior? Maybe, maybe not, especially when we start to think about the new distributed energy and all these new kinds of products and services that are coming down the path. This leans us into the kind of so what which is we probably would benefit as an industry if, if every utility and every organization hired a behavioral scientist, somebody who's really, you know, very savvy and in these, in these different kinds of customer segments or profiles, and how and what those customers really value, and how they're going to interact. And start to tailor as best we can. We don't want to overdo it, but we, you know, tailor and form our product services and interaction channels for these different consumer bases, that would be a, you know, that will be necessary, and we see that we're inspired by what's helped happen in telecommunications and cable and some of the other service home service providers, how they have really leaned in on A much more behavioral approach to their consumer base.
Trevor Freeman 39:42
Yeah, and, I mean, I guess, keeping with the theme of three chunks of threes, you kind of expand and you take that into these three areas of action that energy providers can take to help their consumers on that journey, as we talked about and you even make the note of saying the companies, energy companies, have to do everything all at once quickly. We can't sort of pick and choose when it comes to rethinking the way we're engaging with our customers, our consumers. So help me understand these three areas of actions that that are so critical for energy companies?
Greg Guthridge 40:20
Yeah, again, I'm going to hand this over to Nicholas in a moment. The you know, the message is that, again, we are we're trying to accelerate an energy transition measured in decades rather than in generations, and so we've got to walk and chew gum at the same time. And that utilities are immensely complex organizations that are already doing that, obviously. I mean, we're the infrastructure and the complexity to deliver, you know, electricity and natural gas to consumers is an Herculean activity already, and what we're suggesting is it's going to be even more complex now as we try to engage consumers in in, you know, these three key areas. So Nicholas, over to you, just to give a quick overview on what some of those key priorities are that we all have to juggle simultaneously.
Nicholas Handcock 41:12
Yeah, you bet. And it's, you know, it's probably overly simplified, but to get it down to threes, I think the first one that we talked about is really thinking about reinventing the basics. And I know, Greg, it's one of your favorite things to talk about, spring cleaning that you know, a lot of utilities are really the product of, you know, 100 years of history and of built-up complexity and taking a step back and saying, how do we really simplify a lot of our internal processes? How do we simplify and automate things to help the employee experience, but also flip that lens to the customer side? How do we make things as effortless and easy as possible for customers, really, across every kind of interaction that we could be having with them? You know, focusing on like one and done, we really finished. Finished, start, finish. What we start when it comes to customer experience, so that reinventing of the basics and that comes also to areas like outage and reliability, where we see that being more and more important in a lot of places. How do we think back to that experience and make it really the best that it can be? I think the second area, we call it onboarding of the new which is, how do we make you know, consumers? How do we go and engage them and really more of a personalized way? How do we tailor things to the best that we can in a cost effective manner, and really start to bring in those new programs and products and services that we want to take to customers and have that new messaging for them, and build a new kind of relationship, as Greg said, meeting customers where they are, and creating a new kind of connection point with customers when it comes to energy. And the final thing is really thinking about scaling for the outcomes that we're trying to achieve. And there's a lot of things to focus on here. I think a lot of utilities have gotten stuck in pilot mode when it comes to a number of things, whether it be new programs or new products and services or things like new technology, like artificial intelligence. And what we see is that the time for sort of pilots and testing is really over. Consumers and the energy transition are moving forward very quickly, and it's time to really reach for scale when it comes to things like introducing new technologies to make experiences better, to simplify, but also scaling those new products and services in a way that's going to be effective for a future that has sort of mass adoption. We're moving beyond the early adopters. And now we need to think about moving from pilots to scale. And so that scaling for outcomes is really the third place to focus on.
Trevor Freeman 43:29
Yeah, and that's a great I like kind of ending up there that looking at, what does this look like when we move past that pilot stage, past that Imagineering stage, if you will. And that's kind of where I want to wrap things up today with my last question. And I'm going to put you guys on the spot a little bit here and ask you to, you know, think about those stakeholders in the energy sector that you're working with. You know, knowing your reach is global, who are doing a really good job of this, who are further down this path towards the transition than others are, and what does it look like, both for that, both for that kind of utility actor, as well as the consumer, when you've got an energy sector, when you've got an energy system that is closer to where it will be in this future that we've been talking about than where we are today, with maybe some of those lagging actors. What does that look like? What is it like to have an energy sector that's really through the transition, if you will, or close to that?
Greg Guthridge 44:33
Oh, Trevor, yeah, let's, let's pull out our, our, our little crystal ball, and see what the future is here. The future is ubiquitous energy. The future is consumers who are multi product, multi-channel and multi provider, and who have a connected ecosystem of energy devices that they can override and control, but are also. So simple and automated in many ways, they we have simple, clear too easy to understand billing and payment capability that's fully integrated, and we're providing a convenient, effortless and frictionless experience, both for residential customers, for the mass market, as well as for businesses, we're leaning in on new energy load growth, whether that's, you know, data centers and any number of other things, and we're leaning in on this convergence of the home and the automobile, which is going to be a fascinating transition in the future. So how and what that is going to look like in the future is going to vary dramatically for different utilities, and the duration that it will take will also vary dramatically. That's really where we're headed, and it's super exciting to see this, this unfolds across the globe.
Trevor Freeman 46:04
I think it's helpful to try and get in that headspace from time to time, because we spend a lot of time talking about where we are now and the challenges we face and the big things that have to happen, and we talk about the solutions as these kind of nebulous things, but really thinking of what's the day to day, like when we get through this energy transition, or when we move further than we are today, I think is helpful to give us that I don't know, call it hope for where we want to be in the energy sector. So to wrap up our conversation today, I always ask our guests a series of questions, just to help kind of get to know you and get out of this space for a little bit. So given that there's two of you, I'll just throw the questions out there, and either one of you can answer. You can fight over who gets to answer or who has to answer. I'll leave that up to you. So, to start us off, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Greg Guthridge 46:56
Oh, what an interesting question. And it's interesting. We have a we actually have a book club at EY, a monthly book club, and we've covered, I very kind of different book. And what's fascinating is, after two or three years of having a an internal book club at EY, my favorite book isn't even on the list yet, and it's actually called the future we choose. And the author is Christine Figuerellis. I think I might have heard her last name, but the future we choose, and it's a really optimistic book on the future of how we can navigate. It presents the challenge ahead, but also gives us hope and optimism in how we're going to navigate that that transition. So great, great little book, a good read, nonfiction to some extent, and worth a quick, worth a quick read.
Nicholas Handcock 47:58
I'm surprised you didn't, didn't pick it, Greg, because I know this is one of your favorites, but I thought I'd thrown out as one that I think everyone should read is that it's a bit of an older book, The Effortless Experience, by Matt Dyson, and it's, you know, it's all about customer experience and how most customers really just want the simplest customer experience possible. And that's really what moves the needle, is making it easy and effortless for people, and even proactively making it so they don't have to connect and contact us. And I think as utilities, it's a good one to think about. As the experience gets more and more complicated, how do we actually make it simpler?
Greg Guthridge 48:30
Yeah. Nicholas, you named it that's, that's, that's, you know, for years, that's been one of my favorite books. So yeah, the effort listed customer experience. Matt Dyson, great book.
Trevor Freeman 48:42
Both of those are great I love the idea of holding on to that hope and optimism and then that sort of practical look at, how do we how do we let customers have the easiest experience with us as possible? Both of those are great choices. So, the next question is kind of the same, but for a movie or show what's a movie or show that you think everyone should have a look at?
Greg Guthridge 49:04
Oh, yeah, Trevor, we've all, you know, we all survived the pandemic with all kinds of different media options here. And, you know, actually, during covid, one of the movies that resonated with me was this was a book or was a movie called The biggest little farm. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a it's a fascinating sort of journey around sustainability. And you know the creativity that those residential customers can take. It's, it's fun, it's light, it's a good Friday evening kind of movie, if you know what I mean. So have a chance. Check it out. I think it's four or five years old now, but it's called the biggest little farm,
Trevor Freeman 49:52
Perfect. My next question is, now, now both of you guys’ travel, I think, a fair amount, so this is either going to be an easier or harder question for you to answer, but if someone gave you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Greg Guthridge 50:07
Well, that's easy for me. I'd probably go to either New Zealand or Italy. New Zealand because of the amazing environment and landscape, and it's just it's such a beautiful part of little pocket of the world, and Italy for its food, that would be easy. Nicholas?
Nicholas Handcock 50:24
I think I would jump on a plane to Japan. Greg and I both spent some time working there as the market and energy was liberalizing. And it's such a unique and interesting place that I just absolutely love and sort of on the nerdy side, from the energy side of things, it's very interesting where you've got, you know, subway companies and things selling electricity in Japan, which is, you know, different and unique from a lot of places in the world.
Trevor Freeman 50:48
So cool. I mean, I've done a bit of traveling as well, and I think those, those things that you guys both highlighted. I mean, food, for sure, is phenomenal to go somewhere else and experience different food. And nothing really beats good Italian food in Italy, but also those examples that you brought up Nicholas, of just different ways of doing things that we don't consider or don't seem to fit within our culture here, that maybe we should be looking at. And yeah, I love kind of seeing those examples and hearing about those examples. So, both great, great answers. Okay, so to wrap it up, then, what is something about the energy sector or its future that really excites you, that you're really pumped about
Greg Guthridge 51:27
I'm excited that we are approaching the energy experience from a technology and operations, a consumer lens, and you can see a future, an Ubiquitous Energy Future, where consumers are much more active in their experience. They're benefiting from that experience. We don't we can do this. We can make it affordable, we can make it reliable, and we can make it much more convenient for consumers in the future. So it's just going to be fascinating to see this convergence of technology, of societal along with all these new products and services kind of converging together. And you know, there's a lot of other industries and sectors, from, you know, manufacturing to industrials to automotive that that will play an increasingly interesting role as this convergence occurs in the marketplace. So it's just going to be fascinating to be a part of.
Nicholas Handcock 52:33
Yeah, and I think piling, piling onto that, Greg, I think it's really exciting that the spotlight is on the energy sector. You know, it's in the headlines in the news. My family and my friends asked me about it and asked me about topics that are related to my work, which probably five years ago they thought was very boring, and now it's getting exciting. I think it's also really exciting when it comes to thinking about the talents, the investment, the innovation that we can attract to the sector. We're already starting to see it startups and things having really creative new solutions coming to the energy sector that maybe used to focus elsewhere. So I think there's just so much innovation and change coming. It is really, really exciting for the future.
Trevor Freeman 53:12
Great. Well, I think that's a pretty phenomenal place to wrap up with, with that little pump of optimism. Nicholas and Greg, I really appreciate your time, and this was a great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights, and appreciate you coming on the show.
Greg Guthridge 53:24
Trevor, thank you very much. Appreciate your time today.
Nicholas Handcock 53:27
Yes, thanks, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 53:29
Great. Take care, guys. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word as always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com
Most Canadians are eager to combat climate change. But how? One actionable area is reducing emissions from our homes. In episode 141 of thinkenergy, Sarah Grant, founder and co-owner of Goldfinch Energy, shares ways you can reduce your home’s reliance on fossil fuels. Goldfinch Energy is a women-owned, Toronto-based organization offering energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps, and green renovation support services. Listen in to learn about home decarbonization and electrification solutions.
Related links
Goldfinch Energy: https://www.goldfinchenergy.ca/
Sarah Grant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-grant-89ba152b/
Natural Resources Canada Energy Advisor program: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/professional-opportunities/become-registered-energuide-rating-system-energy-advisor/20566
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
SPEAKERS
Trevor Freeman, Sarah Grant
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. And welcome back from the summer. As you know, think energy paused over the summer, and hopefully you got a break over the summer as well, time to rest and be rejuvenated. There were certainly times of that for us here. I was able to get out and do some camping and canoeing with the family, which, if you're not from Canada, if you're if you're not in Ontario, there's some fantastic camping and canoeing spots here, so come and check them out. But it was also a busy summer. Things, some things do slow down, and others just seem to fill in that empty space in the calendar. So, we've been busy and hard at work. One of the things we've been doing is spending some time thinking about what this next season of think energy has in store. There are lots of great topics to explore, lots of interesting and smart people out there to talk to the world of the energy transition and energy in general is not slowing down. In fact, it's picking up steam quite a bit. So, lots to dive into this season. We may take a different approach on some topics, on some episodes. We might try out some new things. So yeah, come along for the ride. So today, for our first episode of the season, we're going to kick things off with something close to home, and you will forgive me for that very intended and poor pun, because we're talking about home decarbonization and electrification. We know that most Canadians want to do something about climate change. The data shows us this, and you can go back and listen to my conversation with David Caletto from abacus data for more information on this. We want to live in a society that isn't producing harmful emissions that are jeopardizing our future, but it often feels like so much of that is out of our control. So when it comes to climate action, what we often look to is those things that are in our control, which, for those fortunate enough to own their own homes, is the emissions that result from where we live and, by extension, for somehow we get around the city, so our vehicles, even that action, however, can be daunting if we don't know where to start and we don't know what our options are, and we're relying on contractors, or tradespeople who tend to take maybe a more traditional, fossil fuel based approach. There are great contractors out there, but sometimes it's hard to find them, so today we're going to explore that a little bit. Now I do want to throw a quick caveat out there to say that this conversation is really through the lens of kind of a single family or semidetached home, and through the lens of those that either own their own home, or at the very least have some decision making. Power for that home. Decarbonizing multi-unit buildings like apartments or condos or decarbonizing for renters, is a whole different but equally important conversation that I do plan on tackling at another time. So my conversation today is with Sarah Grant, who is the co-founder and co-owner of Goldfinch energy. Goldfinch energy is a Toronto, Ontario based, women owned small business that is dedicated to helping Canadians reduce their homes reliance on fossil fuels. They offer energy assessments, clean tech roadmaps and green renovation support services. Sarah has degrees in engineering and computer science. She's held leadership roles in renewable energy and local food systems, and is a certified energy advisor. And is really someone who's just passionate about tackling climate change and passionate about talking about it as well. So, I think you're going to enjoy the conversation today. Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sarah Grant 04:21
Thanks for having me
Trevor Freeman 04:22
so. Full disclosure to our listeners here, Sarah and I have actually known each other for quite a long time. And I was trying to do the math there, I think it's like getting close to 20 years now, and we know each other from a different line of work. We both were in international developments and worked overseas for a while. So, I think my first question is, tell us how you came to be in the home energy business. That's a bit of a shift from international development. And then tell us a little bit about what Goldfinch energy does.
Sarah Grant 04:53
Awesome. It is true. It is a bit of a shift, although I have always been interested in big, big problems that the world is facing, and working in international development, yeah, I guess 20 or so years ago, I could already see the impacts of the climate crisis, working with subsistence farmers, hearing them tell the stories of how they would plant and um, reigns weren't as predictable as they had been before. And so, when it was time for me to come back to Canada live a bit closer to family, it was something that I was always interested in, and felt like it was another global problem that I could start working on more locally, more specifically, sort of how Goldfinch was born was, to some extent, out of the pandemic. So, some goodness came out of that. Early in the spring, I was working in another sort of climate focused endeavor, a nonprofit that it was clear wasn't going to do very well with the pandemic ongoing, and a friend actually approached me and said, hey, I have this idea. She herself had been working in the sort of climate change world and had had a furnace die, and had asked about heat pumps, and was just laughed at. So, she ended up with a oversized, gas guzzling furnace to continue to heat her home and knew she could have done better. So, Goldfinch energy was sort of born out of that idea that we're not alone. Many of us want to do something, and our homes are a large portion of our individual commissions. If you are lucky enough to own a home, that is, and there are small steps, big steps you can take. All of it matters. And so that's Goldfinch. So, we then, early on, decided, in order to help people, it was going to be useful to become energy advisors. So, I took some training. Actually, it's a really interesting program the federal government through Natural Resources Canada administers the, I guess, the industry of being an energy advisor. And so, there are sort of two exams you take. And so, we studied in 2020, and launched Goldfinch energy with the idea that, after doing some market research as well that, you know, what was really going to be helpful was being able to help people sort of break down the complexity of what's going on with their homes, what they can do to address the climate change crisis. And also, you know, with a home, it's also not just about that. It's about maybe making it a bit more comfortable, or maybe there's a planned renovation that someone might want to do to change the layout, what have you. And so, we establish golden energy to help people make their homes better for the planet and for themselves.
Trevor Freeman 07:52
Great. Yeah, it's, I think I hear that a lot from folks, and it's in my own experience of, you know roughly that you want to do the right thing, you know, roughly that, yeah, I want to, you know, reduce carbon, but I don't know how. And the answer I'm going to get from my average contractor is not going to point me in that direction. I'm hoping that we're seeing some change, and folks like you guys are maybe pushing that a little bit, but it's great to know that there's organizations out there that can provide that direct support. So, I mean, what we're talking about today is pretty much home electrification, or, let's say, home decarbonization. And so, let's pull apart what that looks like. And there's probably a few different scenarios of how a homeowner could approach this work. There's the one that you described where your furnace kind of dies in the middle of January, which is my own experience a number of years ago. And you have to make a really quick decision. But let's park that scenario for now. Let's talk about if you have time, if you know you want to do this, and you can start planning now, what where do you start? And, oh, you know, looking through the services that you guys provide, you have the energy assessment, the cleantech roadmap, talk us through some of those tools that you use to help people kind of start their decarbonization journey.
Sarah Grant 09:16
So, this is a great question. The best way to start is just by getting a sense of where your home is now. A lot of the homes that I work in, I'm based in Toronto, are 100 plus years old. So, you know, when they were first built, didn't have any insulation. They leaked like a sieve. They were probably heated with wood or some type of fossil fuel. And you know, different expectations were had and over the over the decades, often homes have had a myriad of homeowners and renovations or no renovations. So, an energy assessment is a way for someone to better understand what's going on with their home right now and our clean tech roadmap, then segues from that and helps goes deeper into okay, I now know where my home is losing heat, where you know how efficient or not it is, what levels of insulation exist in behind the walls and in the attic, and you know how drafty it is. There's a cool tool that we use to measure that, the clean tech roadmap, then puts that assessment and translates that into helps people translate that into a plan that they can then ideally act on. So, this plan includes details like, Okay, what you know if you are going to be renovating the basement, stay and want to finish that space. What are the recommended insulation materials that you should use? And how should you treat water? Because, you know, often basements are a little bit below the water table. So, what does that look like? How can we better air seal that space to make it less drafty as well? And maybe you're going to be touching the heating or the hot water. So, what are the options there? What are some contractor names? So, it's really designed to give people all the tools that hopefully they may need if they have the time to not only understand where their home is at, but what they can do and then even have everything at their fingertips to start to seek out quotes and start to take action on their home in the way that's best suited to them. So, some homeowners are able and fortunate enough to kind of do everything in one big bell swoop of, you know, a big, big renovation, perhaps, or, you know, over a few months’ time, able to kind of get, get everything off the list. A lot of the homeowners that we work with aren't in that sort of circumstances. A lot of homeowners who just bought a house, so the house is new to them, but maybe 100 years old. And so, having that clean tech roadmap in their hands then allows them to sort of say, Okay, well, what? What do we want to do this year and the next year, and I've had people that, you know, we worked with four years ago, have who have come back to me a few years later and said, Okay, well, now we're ready to do this? Can you help us which, which is so great, so it's designed to sort of meet people where they are, where they are, with their goals, with their budget and their lifestyle. Because not everyone can afford to kind of do all the you know the right things all at once.
Trevor Freeman 12:24
Yeah, so, I think like having someone in to one understand what's there, because not everybody knows exactly what's in their house, as you said, and then have that plan. That doesn't mean you have to implement the plan today all at once, but knowing you know when this piece of equipment goes or when I work on this part of the house, here's what I'm going to do, here's the things I need to consider. And having that kind of in your back pocket. Or when you do that work is super helpful. You touched on something else that I want to ask you about, which is, you know, oftentimes when we think about decarbonizing our homes or changing out big pieces of equipment. Of course, we're thinking of, you know, our heating system, our cooling system, our hot water system, but you mentioned a couple other things. So, what are some things to address before getting into those big equipment purchases? You know, changing out your furnace. What should what should you do in advance of that?
Sarah Grant 13:20
I mean, first and foremost, you know, if you have a home and you have issues with water, with mold, those are kind of, you know, structural issues. Those are aspects that tend to, you know, they're top of the list. But, you know, assuming, let's assume, you know, we're talking about homes that kind of don't have those pressing needs. Some of the some of the items that are ideal to address before electrifying are involve making your home better at keeping the heat in. So that's really comes down to just insulate, more insulation where you can, to the extent that you can, and reducing air leakage. So, a lot of people are familiar with insulation. Usually, most contractors these days, if someone's renovating a kitchen, will find a way to add some insulation. Reducing air leakage is still, I would say, not as much on a contractor's radar as it would be ideal. A lot of the green contractors and architects that I work with, it's sort of as important, or even more important, and to us it is as well. So, in the winter, the insulation for your house is kind of like your sweater, and if you don't have any sort of windbreaker, you're going to have a lot of air leakage. So, the air leakage for your home is kind of like adding a windbreaker. Sorry, I started to talk about it like with homeowners, like there are different levels of air leakage. So, level one just involves walking around with a caulking gun and doing what you can to seal up the gaps and the cracks, maybe around the windows. In the window trim, maybe along the baseboards. People often have a good sense of some of the larger sources of air leakage, because they feel drafty, and so that's kind of level one, air leakage. Level two could involve maybe doing a little bit more in the basement, around what's called the rim joist. So, if you look up in your basement and your basement is unfinished where the sort of the ceiling joists meet the walls, those are often a huge source of air leakage. And there's a lot that can often be done to reduce air leakage there. And there are different products. I don't know if we want to get into that today, but I'll just leave it at that for now. And level three is if you are going to be replacing the siding from the outside or from the inside, gutting your house, adding an air barrier, which is a material that serves to reduce the air leakage. Overall, it is like wrapping your house in a big windbreaker. If someone is able to do that, if you're able to say, if you have siding on the outside of your house that you need to be replaced. Adding an air barrier can have the most significant impacts in terms of reducing air leakage. So, you asked, sort of, where should someone start? I think, you know, it does come back to a lot of people I find replace their siding or replace their windows, maybe more for esthetic reasons, or they have reached their end of life. But reducing air leakage, doing what you can if you're replacing your siding, to also add insulation, isn't always on people's minds. So again, back to having that plan. If you have a plan, if you know, okay, when I need to redo my flat roof or redo my siding or redo my windows, I'm going to be thinking about these extra pieces that will ensure that I'm going to take a few more steps to make my house do a better job of keeping the heat in, by adding more insulation, by reducing air leakage. Those are great, great first steps when possible.
Trevor Freeman 16:54
And the added benefit, I think, of that, and this is important for people to know, is there's a huge comfort impact there. I mean this, we're not even really talking yet about energy savings and carbon you will just have a more comfortable home if it's less drafty, if it holds the heat in better, keeps the heat out in the summer, and that is one of the drivers for some of these changes that we're talking about here today. It's not just because you really care about climate change, it's also because you want a more comfortable and efficient home.
Sarah Grant 17:25
100% I think that comfort just like someone having a broken furnace. Well, maybe not exactly, but similar to, I think, is can act as that trigger, as that motivator, to push people. So I do often have people calling and saying, Hey, like, can you come and do a consult? Because we don't often use the third floor of our house. It's just not as comfortable. And so we'll figure out what's going on and help people make a plan to address that. And ideally, you know, I find when I'm able to do that, I'd rather help someone make a better use of existing space than help them plan out an addition. Um, I have sometimes ended up talking people out of an addition, because upon sort of discussing their house real, we've realized, okay, like they don't use their basement because it's unfinished, it's dark, it's damp, it's, you know, it's the scary, cobwebby place. And so we develop a plan that involves adding more sunlight and making it comfortable, making it not so damp and scary, and that helps. They're already heating that space. It's sort of a space that you're already sort of half there. And so energy wise, you're making an improvement, and have avoided making your house bigger, which is maybe required, but it can be avoided, is better too.
Trevor Freeman 18:49
Okay, so I want to dive into the things that probably people are most familiar with when we talk about reducing our own fossil fuel consumption in a home. And so these are your big users, like how you heat your space, how you heat your water, and for some people cooking. So especially those first do space heating and water heating. The majority of Canadians at least use some kind of fossil fuel to heat their homes, especially here in Ontario. So that's typically natural gas cooking is a little bit more of a mixed bag, but there's a lot of gas cooking out there. So maybe talk us through what would be the sort of low to no carbon option for each of those three things.
Sarah Grant 19:31
Great, okay, going from large to small. So the largest source of emissions in a home is your space heating. Typically, the emissions are about the same as driving a sort of a mid to large sized car. You know, most people drive, on average, 15,000 kilometers a year. The emissions are going to be about the same so that that's going to be the biggest one, if someone is looking and they're a little bit overwhelmed, and the best alternative is a. Heat pump. So these are they come in many different forms, but the most common, and I think the most common scenario for most homes is if you have forced air. So ductwork and these kind of heat pumps can extract heat from the air outside. A lot of them can work up to minus 30 degrees. So even up to minus 30, they're able to grab latent heat in the air and pump it inside, and then it gets pumped around your house. The cool thing about them is that they can also work in reverse. So, in the summer, they act just like an air conditioner. In fact, the technology is very much the same as an air conditioner, just that they work in reverse in the winter too. So they can also cool. So these are called Air source heat pumps. And, yeah, someone has forced air and they have a gas furnace or an air conditioner or both that need to be replaced. An air source heat pump is, is a great option. A lot of the folks that we've worked with that have switched, you know, you talked about comfort, sort of some of the side benefits, I would say, of a heat pump is they're typically quieter if designed and sized and installed properly, they're they they're quieter both the outside and the inside aspects of a heat pump, and the air from the vents is a lot more comfortable. So we got a heat pump about three years ago, and the first winter we had it installed, my father in law came over for dinner one night and just stood in front of the vent, kind of like a cat basking in that warmth, and said, Oh my gosh, this is way more comfortable. It's not that dry, scorched air that a lot of people associate with poor stairs. So that's, that's an air source heat pump. You can also, there are also ground source heat pumps, but for a lot of you know urban areas, these ground source heat pumps involve drilling into the ground, either horizontally or vertically, to extract heat from the ground. They I have worked with a few homes in sort of more rural areas where it does make sense, but the costs associated with them are really high, and often there's not enough space in urban areas, so they're not quite as common. And I'd say sort of, just to kind of close the conversation on we'll conclude it on the on the heating side of things, if you do have another source of like heat, maybe it's, maybe it's cast iron radiators or baseboards. There are also heat pumps that can help you as well. So with cast iron radiators, they're what's called air to water heat pumps. So they'll the outdoor unit will look similar to someone who has forced air. So it's an it's going to extract heat from the outside air, and it'll transfer it to water. Now that can then go through your cast iron radiators, or maybe have insular heating or what have you. They're not as common, but the technology has existed for a long time in Europe, and there are more products and contractors that I'm working with that are becoming more comfortable with installing this technology. And last there are what's called ductless heat pumps. So if you don't have ductwork or cast iron radiators, or maybe have baseboards, or maybe there's a space where the ductwork just isn't sufficient, these ductless heat pumps can be installed. They can either go on the wall, on sort of these big white boxes. If you've been to Asia, you're probably familiar with them because they exist there, either in the form of heat pumps or air conditioners, or you can have little floor mounted ones as well, which look a little bit slicker, I suppose, but they do cost a little bit more. So that's heating for hot water. There are kind of two main options if you want to get off of fossil fuels. Usually that's yeah, for most of us, that's with the gas, but there could be propane as well. So, if you want to get off of fossil fuels with your hot water, the heat pump technology exists with hot water as well. Heat Pump hot water tanks is what they're called. Are actually, confusingly, sometimes hybrid tanks, because they use heat pump technology, but then also have an electric coil. So, they operate, they can operate like a simple electric tank, if, um, if needed. And they come with a little like Wi Fi app too. So they are, like, four times more efficient than a gas hot water tank. So you will save a little bit by switching to them. But the way they work is they'll extract heat from your basement, actually, so from your basement air and transfer that to the water. So, I would say about half the people I work with end up going with them because they have a space where it makes sense. Maybe their basement is large and they can put it kind of in the corner and a big mechanical room or a workshop where they're not going to go into it. So, if it, if that heat pump reduces the temperature by two degrees or so, it's not a big deal. But for me, my home is pretty tiny, and we're using every nook and cranny with five of us in it, so we opted for an electric tank and, um. And then paired it with a timer so that it only reheats the water overnight when electricity, if you're on time of use, is cheapest, and that's also when our Ontario grid is using the non-fossil fuel related forms of power production, like nuclear and water. So that can work if you're really lucky and you have an open an unfinished basement and a good space to install what's called a drain water heat recovery system. These are super cool, very simple technologies that can transfer the heat from any water that you've already used, like from your shower, and transfer it to the fresh water before that fresh water then goes into whatever heating mechanism you have. So, they can work with anything, even if you have a gas hot water tank, a drain water heat recovery system is a good way to kind of preheat the water by extracting the heat from the hot water you've already used a lot of hospitals I know in Toronto are starting to use these kinds of systems as well. So two main options, electric tank, you pump out water tank, and then those drain water heat recovery systems as well, and hot water. So, you know, I said you're heating, heating your house. It's usually about kind of 8080, or so percent of a home emission, home emissions hot water is, is around 15 to 20% just to give an idea of sort of how it fits into the relative picture. But ultimately, I wouldn't say, you know, do one over the other, unless you know, if you have, if you have a hot water tank that's broken, replace that with a with an electric tank, or heat pump hot water tank. Don't, don't just say, Oh, it's only 20% I shouldn't do that one. It's still worth it. Every little appliance that you can get off of fossil fuels is one step closer to then being able to disconnect from the gas utility or what have you, and sets you up for, ultimately, like a little bit of savings too, because you're no longer paying for that delivery fee to have access to that fossil fuel in your house. So cooking, cooking is cooking is probably, to be honest, like, the most fun of all of these just because, you know, it impacts your daily life. If like, hot water and heating and cooling are one of those things where you don't, like, I don't think about my heat pump unless it's not working properly, which we haven't had an issue with. But, you know, it just sits there and it does, it does its thing, and I'm happy to have it off of fossil fuels. But for cooking, switching, for us, switching. We switched from a gas stove to an induction stove about a year ago, and it's amazing, like I've got little kids, and I love that. I feel comfortable teaching them how to cook on this stove, just because of the way the induction stove works, the whole cooktop doesn't get heated up in the same way you accidentally leave, like a rag or a paper towel on the stove, not going to catch on fire. We did have a few of those incidences with our former gas stove. And, like, it's really quick. I know that there's a lot of stats and data about how quick it can heat up water, but it's one of those things that you don't believe it until you sort of experience it yourself. So yeah, so we got, we got a nice flick induction stove, because our gas stove was kind of reaching its end of life, and we were starting to smell some of the gas as well, even when it wasn't on, which I know is an issue, that's, that's, you know, something that's, that's hostages for our help. And, you know, there's a lot of research and evidence out there related to, like respiratory issues and gas related cooking. So, if you do have a gas stove and you aren't able to afford to switch now, make sure you're using your exhaust, like your range hood, properly, not just when you're using the top, but when you're cooking in the oven too. But yeah, if you're able to switch it out, then you can just break a little easier knowing that you're not, you're not using some sort of like fossil fuel to cook, cook with, and so your house is cleaner, and you're making the planet a bit cleaner as well.
Trevor Freeman 29:11
That's definitely one of those other benefits of going down that path. And everyone we're in a similar vein, I cook with electric resistance now, but our stove is near its end of life, and I've excited to get that induction stove, because everybody I talked to just sort of says it's one of the coolest things that you can add to your kitchen. So, I'm excited about. One other big source of fossil fuels in our daily lives that people will be familiar with, obviously, is, is our cars, how we drive, how we get around. Most folks still have an internal combustion engine car, and we know that for people that are going to switch to an EV if they can, the preferred choice to charge is at home. People want to be able to charge their vehicles at home. So what are some considerations when it comes to owning an EV at your house, as you're trying to decarbonize
Sarah Grant 30:06
Awesome. I'm glad you asked this question, because I was trying to figure out a way how to bring up electric like capacity in a home, knowing that you know, if you do electrify every appliance in if someone does electrify every appliance in their house, they may not need to upgrade. A lot of us are on 100 amp service, and I was able to, you know, install an induction stove switch from gas to induction switch from a gas hot water tank to an electric tank with that drain water heat recovery system and a timer switch from a gas furnace to a heat pump. And we had 100 amps, and we're fine with that. We didn't have any breakers trip or anything. And I've worked with a lot of homes where that's the case. I should just say, even before someone's going to switch to an EV though, the kind of the two main aspects, two main elements that may require an upgrade, would be an EV charger and, um, electric backup, resistance heating. So with a heat pump, they are amazing for so many reasons I've kind of already talked about they're more comfortable, they're quieter. You know, climate fighting machines that work on electricity, but they're not like electric baseboard heaters. They're using one unit of electricity to generate about three units of heat. So they're great. Their capacity isn't as high as as a gas furnace or our propane furnace may be. So if that's the case, and if your house, you haven't been able to do all the things you can to insulate and to reduce heat loss, then the largest heat pump may need to come with an electric resistance heating and these can, if they're working, can draw a lot of electricity. So the way this works with a heat pump is, on a cold day, the heat pump is going to always operate. And then if your thermostat notices, hey, my house isn't able to stay as comfortable. It's not getting to whatever, you know, 22 degrees, it'll then ask for the electric resistance oil to turn on and give a boost to the heat pump. So, um, you're not going to generate like, your bills aren't going to be excessive, like they would be if someone's heating with just electric heating, but larger electric resistance heating requires a pretty big breaker, like a 40-amp sort of thing. So, if, if that's the case, then that may be something that triggers you into the okay, maybe I need to upgrade to 200 amps EV chargers as well. They come in many different forms. We actually I'm just at my in laws cottage, and my father-in-law, very generously, installed an EV charger here, because we were lucky enough to purchase an EV a few months ago and so he put in one that's also on a 40-amp breaker, but you can get ones and put it on a 30 amp breaker, you put on a 50 amp breaker. So with upgrading and with switching everything to electric, I find that's an area that I think things still are evolving and changing. You know, I typically, I was previously doing sort of a what a lot of electricians or HVAC contractors would do with just sort of adding up all the all the aspects on the panel and sort of saying, Okay, well, if you're running your stove and your heat pump and your hot water all at once, here's sort of based on those breakers, here's how much electricity you're going to draw. And if that number is greater than 100 Okay, someone should upgrade which, which tends to be a little bit conservative. So, what we are now doing is, if you have the ability to access your electricity bills and look at sort of your hour-by-hour consumption, there is a way that homeowners can actually figure out, kind of like, what's my peak, what's my worst? Like, draw, I'm probably not using the right terms here, but, um, but. Or you could actually simulate that and just, you know, on a, on a like a really hot day, turn on make sure your air conditioner is running. Turn on. You all your, you know, your dryer, your electric stove, whatever kind of make it the worst-case scenario that you could reasonably see happening in your house and then go on and log into your utility data. And there's a way that you can look at like hour by hour, and it'll tell you your draw and based on that, if you look up online, there's a way to sort of translate that kilowatt draw into amps. And what I've found when I translate people's draw into amps is that like someone who's on 100-amp panel, who's got, you know, their electric dryer and their air conditioner and their induction stove running typically draws between 20 and 40 amps. That's way below the 100 amp. Environment and so upgrading, this is a long winded way of saying upgrading everything you know, from fossil fuels, switching your car, getting an EV charger, may or may not require you to upgrade to 200 amps, but if you have the ability to sort of do a little bit of research online, try and figure out what your draw is, so that, because you may not actually need to upgrade alive, find a lot of contractors are somewhat conservative and are telling people to upgrade before they necessarily need to. And the cost to upgrade can be around five or so $1,000 so at least what I've seen in Toronto and so that kind of cost can actually turn people off.
Trevor Freeman 35:42
Yeah. So, I that's a great point to bring up Sarah. And I think we, we see that, of course, with our customers a lot as well. And I think it's important to know that the quick and easy way to determine if you need a panel upgrade is, as you said, to add up the numbers on the breakers, and if you if you're bumping over 100 yep, that's a panel upgrade. But that's not necessarily the most accurate way, because it's rare that we use the full amount of each breaker. And so looking at your utility data, or having your electrician, your contractor, help you, look at your utility data, can tell you that you maybe don't need a panel upgrade, that you can operate all this equipment that we're talking about on your 100 amp panel, and most utilities in Ontario, at least, I know for you in Toronto, and definitely for any of our listeners in our service territory in Ottawa, you can access Your hourly utility data online through whatever portal you have with your utility. So definitely go and check that out
Sarah Grant 36:47
if you end up realizing that your kind of on the cusp and you may need to upgrade. One of the other things that you could do instead is install a smart switch. So, there are products of their levatron is one that I know of. There are even smart panels that give you at your fingertips through a phone app, the ability to sort of say, oh, okay, I want to charge my car, so maybe I'm going to, sort of not let people draw electricity from other aspects in my home, or vice versa, you can kind of turn off and on your car charger. You can even run your whole panel as well. So, sort of the smart switching aspect is a way that, if you're kind of on that cusp, can enable you to avoid a service upgrade and also get some really cool data at your fingertips as well about your electricity consumption.
Trevor Freeman 37:42
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, and I've seen those as well. They're super exciting. And, you know, as a kind of a data nerd, it'd be awesome to have that granular data. And what's every circuit in my house doing? But I think at its most basic, it's basically saying, yeah, like, you can't run your electric clothes dryer and charge your EV at the same time. So it kind of forces one or the other, you know, and whatever slot in whatever piece of equipment you want there, which keeps you under that, that threshold for your panel, no matter what, even if all your things add up to more, you're still going to stay under because it won't let them go on the same time. So that's a great piece of technology. So, I want to quickly ask you about electricity generation and storage, where probably, if anybody kind of wanders around, you're seeing more and more solar panels on roofs. We're hearing more about home battery storage, although that hasn't quite taken off widespread yet, but it is out there. So how would something like that factor into a homeowner's plan?
Sarah Grant 38:42
Yeah, I think that typically, it's kind of one of the later aspects for a homeowner plan. So you know, if you were listening and you're someone who is interested in doing what you can to reduce your carbon footprint, you know the largest things you can do, the single largest thing is to install a heat pump. Get your heating off of off of fossil fuels, and install a heat pump. And, you know, do what you can to reduce your heat loss by adding insulation, making it less leaky. Solar panels are a fantastic complement to that, and I find they, you know, we include them in a clean tech roadmap, and we show people the impact. And some people do choose to do them first just because they're excited, and it is, to some extent, an investment in reduction of your energy bills. So, you know, the sooner you can get the panels on your roof, the sooner you can start to save and no longer spend, you know, and to some extent, also solar panels, at least in Ontario, they're producing their peak amount of electricity at a time when we're using our electricity grid in Ontario, mostly as nuclear and water. But you. Uh, you know, during peak times, we do have some gas power plants that their benefit is to kind of come on quickly and produce electricity really quickly, so that we can make up that that time, say, five o'clock on a really hot August day when everyone comes home from work or six o'clock and turns on their air conditioner and, and, and, but at that same time, solar panels are in peak production. So, you know, I know, I'm sure you've had other podcasts to discuss, sort of our electricity grid, so we don't need to get into more details. But you know, it is something that each can do to offset and reduce that sort of gas peak your plant consumption by putting panels on the roof. And I think a great aspirational goal for everyone would be to be net zero. Just as you know, I know, City of Toronto has a net zero goal as a city overall, so getting each home to net zero would certainly one way to achieve that goal. So there's some savings involved for us. We put panels on, like four years ago, and based on how much we're saving per year and how much we spent, we'll have saved as much in electricity as we spent in 11 to make up the cost in 11 years’ time, the cost the return on investment, isn't as great now because we were able to leverage a federal rebate that is no longer available, but For so that'll probably extend the return on investment. For many people to sort of 15 to 20 years’ time frame. The reduction in use of our gas peaker plants is another, another benefit and, um, no, I'd say the other like, sort of the pleasant side, again, comfort benefit for us, although I wouldn't say invest in it only for this. It's kept our house more comfortable in the summer. So these solar panels are absorbing the sun's energy, the sun's heat. So it's now no longer the sun's no longer cooking our roof as it used to. And although we did add insulation there, the panels are way more effective at just absorbing that energy. And so our second floor is able to stay a lot more comfortable as well. As far as sort of storage goes, You're right. I'm starting to see more and more batteries. But you know, a few years ago, I hadn't seen really any, any in people's homes. The costs, I know, and sort of the thread tape involved in getting them approved was still quite high. But they are a fantastic option if you do have solar panels, or if you're someone who's concerned about making your house more resilient in the event of a power outage, they're a good option to have, obviously, better than, better than a gas generator, which would be the alternative if you want some form of energy on hand in case the grid goes down. But yeah, this is sort of, I would say, if you're thinking about your house and where solar panels and storage could fit in, I would probably put them sort of later on the list. Again, decarbonize by getting, like, electrify everything in your house as much as possible. Do what you can to insulate and air seal, and if you're lucky enough to have a little bit left over solar and storage are great as well.
Trevor Freeman 43:04
Yeah, it's that's a great way to put it. I certainly look at them as supporting tools to someone looking to decarbonize and electrify their house. To your point, you don't get a lot of carbon reduction just from solar, partly, especially in Ontario, because our grid is primarily clean, primarily carbon free, but during those peak solar production hours, that's also typically our peak emission hours from the grid in Ontario. But what solar panels and storage, to a lesser extent, can do is give you some predictability in your energy costs. So, you're kind of locking some portion of your energy cost in the day you put those panels on, and if electricity prices increase, you've got that predictability based on what you put on your roof. So just getting close to the end of our conversation here today, Sarah, I want to ask you two more questions. One, I alluded to this at the beginning, and as did you there are those scenarios where you haven't done any planning or prep. You know that maybe decarbonizing or moving to a more modern piece of equipment is something you want to do, but you haven't done any work on that, and it's January, and all of a sudden there's no heat coming from your furnace. And you get someone to look at it and they say, yep, you need a new one. What can you do? In that sense, are there contractors out there who can turn around and put a heat pump in as quick as they can put a furnace in? Or are we not there yet? What's kind of on the horizon for folks in that situation?
Sarah Grant 44:36
Yeah, there are a lot of contractors out there who can put in a heat pump as quickly as they would a gas furnace. The rebate program that the federal government offered, which is unfortunately no longer available, did a lot of work to, I would say, get homeowners asking contractors about heat pumps, and that then got a lot of contractors on board with installing key pumps. And. And I'm finding actually, right now, we're in a good space, because a lot of manufacturers brought in a lot of stock, and so there's actually an excess of a supply of heat pumps, so the costs have come down a little bit, which is nice in the absence of rebate. So, yeah, the installation itself is, you know, if you're replacing a gas furnace with heat pump, it's no more or less complicated, to be honest, typically should take about, you know, just into two days, or maybe just under, like, you know, one, a full day, and sort of, and then some. And I would say the sort of the biggest, the biggest lost opportunity is, is, you may not, you may not have a contractor that feels comfortable getting you all the way off of gas. So I find a lot of contractors are more comfortable with recommending what's called a hybrid system, where you would have a heat pump and a gas furnace installed in your house. And in this case, the heat pump will always get the first opportunity to provide heating in a house, but then the gas furnace will kick on. Um, at some point. And I find in this case, like the heat pumps are, tend to be a little bit undersized, and so they may not, it's a bit of a lost opportunity. They may not be able to heat as long into the winter as if it was sort of the right size for your home. And you know, instead of the heat pump going all the way, which is the case if you get all the way off of fossil fuels, it'll switch over to the gas furnace as needed. So just like a hybrid car, you know, with a battery and gas in the car itself, this sort of system is still a great step in the right direction, though. So certainly, if you're stuck in the middle of a winter night or a hot summer's day and you've got no cooling or no heating call around, and you know, if you don't like the first answer, if you have still, there are still some contractors that are misinformed about heat pumps and will sort of say, Oh, well, they don't work greater. But I would say, for the most part, in the last four years, things have changed dramatically, and contractors are now on board, and because they have an excess of supplier are eager to, eager to sell them and install them.
Trevor Freeman 47:05
That's great to hear. And I think the important thing there is you're not going to know unless you ask, and if you don't get that answer the first time, you know, take another couple calls. Try call around, because there are, there are contractors out there who can support you in that. And kind of like you said, this is, you know, when you're replacing your major heating equipment in your house, that's your once in a kind of 10-to-15-year period, if not longer, to get that right. And if you lock yourself into something you didn't really want, then it's hard to hard to change course a few years down the road. So, take the time if you can, to ask those questions. Okay, last question for you here, before we wrap up, I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about just the overall process of retrofitting more homes. You know, you made the point earlier. There's a lot of homes out there. If we can start moving all these homes off fossil fuels, it's going to go a long way towards hitting our climate goals. How do we speed that process up? What programs or regulations or policies have you seen, or would you like to see that and kind of encourage these transitions?
Sarah Grant 48:13
Oh, I love that question. Yeah. I mean, if I had a magic wand and could change things, I would definitely like to see more, more incentives, more zero interest financing out there. You know, the homes that I've seen that have been able to get all the way off of fossil fuels, install solar panels, do what they can to insulate were able to access in the city of Toronto anyway, a zero-interest loan that went up $225,000 came with its own $10,000 incentive. They also accessed what is no longer available, the up to $10,000 incentives. So up to 20k of incentives, zero interest loan, those like of the homes that we work with, they're about 20% that have achieved that kind of like the got to sort of net zero, significant energy reduction, and we're able to, you know, access that level of financing and rebates. Those programs are not available anymore. Or at least, the City of Toronto offers their low interest loan. It's no longer zero interest, and doesn't have the incentives anymore. So that typically showed me that, you know, it's possible, but we do need more financing and support in place for people. You know, there's a there are a lot of great models in Europe and in Germany, the energy sprawl model exists where basically big like panels can be installed on the outside of people's homes that have insulation, that have an air barrier, that kind of come with the Windows already well installed those sort of options as well. If, if, if feasible, can also do a lot to accelerate our rate of decarbonizing or electrifying in in Canada. In that regard, there's a lot happening in the sort of the low income Social. Housing space. And I feel very honored or privileged to be just a small actor in that space and collaborating with many fantastic actors that are not only sort of retrofitting a large number of homes, at least in Toronto, but also treating it as an opportunity to sort of help think about how we can get to scale and how we can accelerate this and so they are changing contractors mindsets and impacting the availability of stock and supply. So, yeah, we need, we need, we do need more policies and support and levers in place, and then, as well, the sort of the contractor industry, there's a lot of training and support that's also needed. So it's a big, it's a big, exciting problem with lots of opportunity, but, yeah, lots of work to happen in order for us to achieve our net zero goals.
Trevor Freeman 50:50
Yeah, I think we have seen that there's a role for funding and financing to help lower that initial barrier of some of this, you know, still fairly nascent technology, although it's becoming more commonplace, but there is a role for those programs, and when they are in place, you know, your experience has shown they work, you're seeing more projects go through when there are funding and financing programs compared to when there aren't. So it's good to know that the programs work, and we just need to see more of them, so that's great. Okay, Sarah, we always wrap up our interviews with kind of a series of questions that I pose to all guests. So as long as you're ready, I'll dive right in. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Sarah Grant 51:35
That is a great question. That's fun. I'm an avid reader, so it's hard to it's hard to answer this, to be honest, one book that comes to mind that I think everyone should read is called Ishmael. It's a book about a talking gorilla, and it it definitely changed the trajectory of my life. I read it when I was about 20 years old, I think, and in, you know, studying to become an electrical engineer, thinking about my next steps. I was in my last year of university, so maybe I was a bit older, but, yeah, it's a fantastic book that has, I think, still stood the test of time. I come back to it every few years and reread it.
Trevor Freeman 52:18
Awesome. I could be wrong here, my memory is hazy, but that rings a bell. I feel like maybe many, many years ago, you told me about that book. It's possible. I think we, for those of you who don't know this international development thing, Sarah and I did. A lot of us went through that path of being an engineering school and deciding there's got to be something more out there, and I want to have an impact in a different way. And that took a lot of us down to different courses in our lives. But if someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Sarah Grant 52:54
Okay, I hope that they're going to offset the emissions, if they're offering or I will offset the emissions, where would I go? I mean, I've always wanted to go to so assuming it's a carbon neutral flight, I've always wanted to go to New Zealand, and I used to play rugby. So I would definitely go catch a few rugby games and watch the All Blacks do their traditional Māori dance and hike the hills and the mountains and just sort of see the, see the landscape in New Zealand.
Trevor Freeman 53:29
Who is someone that you admire?
Sarah Grant 53:32
Okay, so, I mean, this is going to get real, really quick, so I would say, you know, I this is and a bit cheesy, but I'm going to say my kids, I've got three, and they're six, eight and 10, they're all very aware of their role in the world. They go to an alternative school, so perhaps that's part of it, but I just think perhaps it's also just being a kid of this age. And they are the reason we bought an electric car sooner than we could afford, because they started crying when we would go in the gas car, and they were concerned about the emissions. And so, I admire my kids. I admire their awareness and their ability to speak up when, when, when something happens. A few months ago, my partner came out to all of us as a trans person, and this is where I said it was going to get real, pretty quick, because my kids have taken it so well, like, they've taken it in stride. They've My daughter has embraced it. She's like, Oh my God. Now I have two moms I can, like, I'm not the mom that's going to take her to get pedicures, but she now has a mom that can take her to get pedicures. So, it's, I guess what I'm saying is, there was their awareness. and their resilience is astounding.
Trevor Freeman 55:03
Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing both of those things, and I echo that and seeing the way that my kids and kids you know that are aware of this stuff really find ways to identify their role in this and find ways to sort of advocate, even without knowing all the big picture and knowing all the nuance to it. And maybe that's even better, that they're just going based on kind of hard and what they know. So that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that. Our final question here, before we wrap is, what is something about the energy sector or the work that you do, or something that you see coming in the near future that you're really excited about.
Sarah Grant 55:48
So there's so much to be excited for. So, um, one thing that is that is giving me a lot of excitement is, is the low income, the social housing work that I'm involved in because, because of the potential to help accelerate things, because we're all working in a very different way, I think traditionally, you know, and in any space, there's a lot of competition, but all of us who are working, whether It's I'm working with some architects, with some contractors, the owners, their land trust organizations, of these buildings, everyone is operating with the idea that, you know, we should be collaborating. And so there's a lot of knowledge sharing, a lot of investing in each other's awareness and connections. And, you know, it's net it's net positive. It's resulting in a lot more than if we were kind of just, like, holding our cards close and being like, Oh, you hired me to do this, and I don't want to tell you how I did it, because then maybe you're not going to hire me next time I'm happy, if I get worked out of a job to some extent. And what it means for gold trench energy is that we need to kind of keep adapting. Like, four years ago, the conversations I was having with homeowners are very different from the conversations now, and that's amazing, because four years ago, people didn't, lot of people didn't know about heat pumps, and I know that's still the case, but a lot of people that were hiring us didn't know, and now, four years later, they do, and so that evolving knowledge and enhancing Understanding and the fact that there are people out there who are working in a collaborative manner, I think that's going to get us a lot farther, faster, and honestly, it's just way more fun to collaborate with people.
Trevor Freeman 57:32
Yeah, totally. I echo that. I've said it on this podcast before. That one thing I've noticed having been kind of in this space now for close to 15 years in the sort of energy building sector, it feels like things are moving faster and more widespread. There are more people that are aware of the need to decarbonize. There are more people working on that. There are more people working on it in different ways, which is really exciting to see. So that's something definitely that I'm also quite excited about. So Sarah, it's been great chatting today. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and telling us a little bit more about what you do. And yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.
Sarah Grant 58:15
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Trevor Freeman 58:17
Thanks, Sarah, thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroauttawa.com
Summer rewind: If electrification is the future of energy, the grid must become more efficient and more reliable across Canada. Jenna Gillis, Manager of Distribution System Integration at Hydro Ottawa, joins thinkenergy to discuss the process. Listen to episode 136, as she shares how Ottawa’s electricity grid is being updated with an Advanced Distribution Management System (ADMS) and what this means for you, your family, and residents throughout the region.
Related links
● EV Everywhere Pilot Project: https://hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy/save-energy-homes/ev-everywhere
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman
Hey everyone. Well, it's officially summer, and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry, though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair, Dan Sagan, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months, and you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer, and we'll be back with new content in September, and until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, I think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm pretty excited about today's topic, because we're going to be tackling something a little bit technical. And that's always fun. And today is going to be the first of what might end up being a few different episodes looking at this term called grid modernization. So today, we're going to do just a high-level overview. And then over the next few months, there'll be a couple of different episodes that will dive deeper into some of the specific aspects of grid modernization. So that term grid modernization can be a little bit daunting, but that's okay. Our goal here is to pull apart these topics to better understand what they are and how they impact all of us, you know, from those of us working in the energy sector, all the way to the end users of our product, if you will, our electricity customers. So let's start by a bit of a primer. And I think it'll be helpful to start by talking about what the grid is. So the electrical power grid has been called the world's largest machine, and the greatest engineering achievement of the 20th century. And for good reason, thinking of it as a machine is a great metaphor, because just like a car, or a sewing machine or a snow blower, there are a lot of parts. And if any one of those parts breaks or isn't working as it's supposed to be, that will impact the overall function of the machine. And the same is true for the grid. And the parts we're talking about here are the holes, the conductors or wires, the transformers, the switches, as well as the many different sensors and meters and communication devices that help the humans in the mix, monitor and control things. The difference though, is that you know, even for a complex machine, like a car, there are hundreds or maybe even a couple 1000 parts. But the electricity grid, even if we just look at let's say hydro Ottawa as territory, there are hundreds of 1000s of parts. And if we scale that up to Ontario's grid, we're talking about millions and millions of individual parts all working together, so that when you turn your lights on at home, electricity that was generated hundreds or 1000s of kilometers away, flows into your device and makes it work. That's pretty impressive. And if any one of those millions of parts breaks, there's an impact somewhere on the grid. If multiple things break, or if there's something really critical that isn't working. That's a major problem. And we've seen these major problems. We've seen large scale outages. And you know, we tend to focus on Ontario's grid on this show, because that's what we call home. But our grid is connected to our neighboring grids, who are connected to their neighbors to form really an interconnected North American grid across Canada and the United States. It really is a modern engineering marvel. And, you know, we didn't just get here by chance. This was kind of designed, you know, back at the early days of the 20th century in the early 1900s. Electrical pioneers met for the first time in what is now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss what it would look like to wire Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Our predecessor company, the Ottawa hydroelectric commission, connected to that provincial grid in 1916. So, what we know as the Ottawa grid and our service territory is over 100 years old today. Before that, across Ontario, reliable and continuous power in the region was kind of uncommon, and really dependent on whether someone in the area like a major business or a wealthy individual had invested in a localized electricity grid for their own needs. An interconnected provincial grid was designed and implemented with a goal of making electricity available to all Ontarians regardless of where they lived. And that kind of evolution of the grid in Ontario is similar to how it worked in other parts of North America and indeed the world. That's kind of how grids came about in the last century. Ontario's electricity grid, however, like all grids around the world, was really designed as a one-way street. So, the idea was to generate and then transmit, and then deliver that electricity to customers in that order. Back then, those pioneers really couldn't have imagined an electricity grid that would need to support two-way interactive things like small scale distributed renewable energy, you know, solar panels on roofs or electric vehicles, or energy storage, and a whole host of other things that, you know, want to do more than just draw power from the grid. As we've talked about the ongoing energy transition, and electrification, which is being driven by the pressures of climate change, is really driving a societal shift to bring the electricity system into the 21st century, and to make sure it's powered with clean, renewable electricity. So, our grid is starting to undergo this major transformation. And we won't be able to do that effectively or affordably by just using the same strategies and technologies and the same pace that we've been doing it at over the last 100 plus years. We need to take it to the next level; we need to rethink what we're doing to upgrade the grid and how we're doing it. And that's really what grid modernization is, it's not saying we don't have a modern grid, it's realizing that the grid of 10 years from now needs to be different in a much bigger way than it's different from how it was 10 years ago, that pace of change needs to happen quicker. And we need to bring on new functionality. It's not just you know, incremental change anymore. To help us make some sense of this. I'm really happy to have Jenna Gillis to chat with today. Jenna is the manager of distribution system integration at hydro Ottawa and is leading this major project that we're calling at a high-level grid modernization, or more specifically, our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. Jenna has been with hydro Ottawa for 16 years and has held a number of different roles on the operations and systems side of our business and really knows how our grid operates, how it's been operating, how the humans in the mix control things. And what's necessary to get us to that next stage that we've been talking about. Jenna, welcome to the show.
Jenna Gillis 07:04
Great. Thanks, Trevor. excited to talk to about this today.
Trevor Freeman 07:07
Yeah, I'm excited to. So let's start at kind of a high level here and help our listeners understand how we currently operate our grid today. So paint the picture for those of us who don't kind of get to see what happens behind the scenes. How do we control things today?
Jenna Gillis 07:23
Yeah, for sure. So what people might not realize that we actually have people sitting in a control room centralized control room that looks at our system 24/7 365. So we've got people monitoring the system all the time. And they look at the grid state, and they help direct field activities. They look at triaging outages as they become aware of them. And right now, we've got visibility to our control room to all of our substations, so all of our, you know, high level devices, but only down to about 8% of the feeders and not actually all the way out to our customer level. So what does that mean? That means that we still rely on customers calling us or reporting online when they experience an outage. And all of that information does make its way back into our control room operators. And it goes into a system we call the outage management system, which helps us track and identify where we might be seeing issues out on the grid. So the operators then use that information to help make decisions in terms of controlling the grid where they need to open up closed devices where they need to send field crews to restore power. So on top of that, most of these activities are done by field crews. So the system operators are in direct contact with our crews out in the field and providing direction on where to go, what devices to you know, have them physically open or close in the field. And we've got about 10% of our system right now that has remote capabilities. So that means that the operators can choose to open or close those devices, basically at a click of a button back in the office sitting at a computer. So most of what we do today really is human based and does take an expert control operator to be monitoring the systems and making the decisions.
Trevor Freeman 09:08
Yeah, so we've got this like really complex system. It's, you know, state of the art system, if you will, that requires, like you say experts to keep track of what's happening to identify problems and make decisions based on the information they're getting. I just want to pick apart a few things you said there. So when we're talking about our substations, just for our listeners, those are, you know, spots in our grid where we take higher voltage and step it down via transformers to a lower voltage, and then send that out on wires. That's what we call our feeders to our end customers. We know what's happening at that substation level, we can see whether the power is flowing or not whether switches are open or not. But once it gets past that we lose some of that visibility. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you
Jenna Gillis 09:57
Yeah, exactly. And so that's why I'm saying like we still rely on those notifications from our customers to let us know where they're seeing the problems. And, you know, it comes into a system that, that we can look at in conjunction with that visibility that we have on the substations to help us understand what's going on.
Trevor Freeman 10:12
Right. So obviously, it was such a, you know, an ordered and complex system, we're constantly in proving and renewing and upgrading. That's not new. That's not something that we're just starting. But as I've kind of hinted at in the opening there, we do need to change how we do things. So before we look into where we're going, how do we renew and upgrade today, what's our current process.
Jenna Gillis 10:36
So we do have a robust asset management framework. So that's basically a program that tells us and we look at all of our asset information. And that's whether that's poles, wires, transformers, switches, breakers, basically anything we have out on the distribution system, and we look at and prioritize where we need to invest and where we need to renew, replace, install, upgrade, all of that kind of stuff. So basically, as we do that, right now, we go through, and we'll incorporate new technologies, like these remote control switches, like these sensors to bring information back into the control room to help us continue to evolve, meet our customer or system needs. So this, this process has worked really well in the past in terms of keeping pace with technology and the requirements of the grid and our customers. But right now, we're seeing that it's we're falling behind, it's too slow to parallel installation of these new technological devices, with these asset renewals or installation. So I mean, if you think about it, you know, a pull out with wires on it can last over 50 years, we can't wait until we're replacing that 50 years from now to go in and add these new technological advancements. So what that means is now we're looking at a hybrid ap proach. So of course, we're going to continue to parallel activities where it makes sense with these asset renewals and upgrades and replacements. But we also need to strategically start placing these devices in areas that we're going to gain benefit from, and I'm talking about benefit from a control room operator perspective, benefit from a safety or field crew perspective, but also where we can provide value to our customers in terms of, you know, expediting restoration efforts, or, you know, providing more flexibility into the system to allow more customer connections, whether that be, you know, new residential developments, or whether that's, you know, the next solar panel or battery or something like that.
Trevor Freeman 12:25
Yeah, waiting for anybody who's familiar with kind of technological adoption curves and the pace of technological change, you talk about 50 years is the life of some of this equipment, the difference between technology and let's say, 1930, and 1980, wasn't a huge jump when it comes to poles and wires and transformers. But today, the difference of 50 years is night and day that we're not talking at all about the same technology. So we can't wait for that whole cycle to go through before we're getting some of the tech in today that we need today in order to upgrade the system. So that's helpful to understand what that looks like. So let's look forward then. And when we talk about where we want to go with grid modernization, how we want to change that, talk us through what we're trying to accomplish.
Jenna Gillis 13:14
Yeah, so I think I'm gonna paint a little bit of a picture here in terms of how I think about grid modernization, because that's really helped me contextualize the way that we need to do things differently. So I think of grid modernization, that program in entirety as like a stacked or a layer pyramid. At the bottom, you have field devices. So you have equipment that's remotely controlled, or providing data in the field. So you know, we're talking about sensors, or meters or switches, things like that. That's your foundation. On top of that, you then need a way to get that information back to back to systems back to people. So then you need a communication infrastructure. So you need to be able to take that data and funnel it where it needs to go, which is the third layer data management, you need to store, organize, create access to that field data. And then finally, the fourth triangle right at the very top is your applications and analytics later. So now you've got the data coming from the field, you're bringing it back, and you're managing it. So now what are you going to do with that information. So these are the applications and analytics. So really the tools that digest that data and ultimately help make decisions. So that is what I envisioned kind of as the grid modernization pyramid. And you need each one of those layers to unlock the value from the layer below it. So you can't really have one without the other all the way up to the top. So what we need to start doing is thinking about these layers in a programmatic fashion. What we've done historically is looked at the requirements on a project by project or program by program basis. So basically, you would unlock each one of those layers for that specific project or program requirements. What we need to start doing now is that grid moderization is going to be the foundation for everything we do. So basically, every project, every program is going to require some level of information, data management, analytics, communication. So the way we're looking at that is this is now becoming a foundation to everything we do. So we need to be programmatic, roll this out so that regardless of what we're doing in the future, we have this foundation to rely on. And we're not building it piece by piece as we work through, you know, project life cycles. So really, what's different when I talk about grid modernization assets, and I'm talking about meters, or sensors or remote control devices, is the integrated nature. So we talked about that pyramid, you can't use these devices without any one of those layers, whereas you think of a traditional asset like a pole, you can, you know, load it up at a truck, and somebody can go and put it in the ground. So it's really the the true convergence. Now we're seeing what we, you know, our information technology, our IT systems, our operational technology, or OT systems, and then operations and asset management. So we really need to be looking at these things together, as one, making sure we're all aligned to unlock each one of these layers.
Trevor Freeman 16:15
Yeah, it really highlights the, I guess, cascading impacts of projects and decisions and bringing on new technology across the entire distribution, business and how we do things and how we serve our customers. One is impacting the other in ways that hasn't really, truly been the case before. So that's that's a great way of of painting it. Thanks, Jenna. Let's talk about kind of the the why behind this, what are the benefits that we're going to see by taking this approach by taking this sort of accelerated upgraded process that we're doing? What are we going to gain from this.
Jenna Gillis 16:54
So our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high level blurb on on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So the first one is enhancing reliability. So the more monitoring devices you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate. And you know, isolate and restore, the better reliability have the ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process, where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the audit, the analytics to make decisions, you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility. So we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online, so things like heat pumps, or electric vehicles, or solar generation or battery, we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective, as well, we want to make sure that we have a good diversity, to be able to recover from disruptions. So we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather and the little last little while. And then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats, core to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer. And so we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement and empowerment. So we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses, and their, their low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonisation of renewable energy integration. So we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So we talked about it a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically, everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them.
Trevor Freeman 19:34
Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, again, not to kind of reiterate the same things we're talking about, but it it's an all encompassing type of project like everything we're trying to do everything we talk about on this show, when it comes to the energy transition, whether that's having a more robust, sustainable, smart grid on the utility side of things, to enabling the kinds of things our customers want to do in terms of adding in more DER's, more self generation and storage, this project is kind of the foundation work. And that's going to support all of those efforts. And we're really only going to get so far without doing this kind of work, which stresses the importance of it.
Jenna Gillis 20:19
Yeah, it really does unlock so much more by having this level of information and visibility into our system that we want to achieve.
Trevor Freeman 20:27
Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's kind of dive in here you have this overall strategy that you and your team have outlined, which you're calling our grid modernization roadmap. Walk us through the main components of this and kind of the timelines that you've laid out? Is this a six months project? I say that kind of laughing, knowing is not a six month project? How long is this going to take? And what are the major components of this.
Jenna Gillis 20:53
So hopefully, I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so our grid modernization roadmap is set out, basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So we've kind of, you know, got got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that. So we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, this roadmap is only as good as it is today until you know, something changes tomorrow. And we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components.
Trevor Freeman 22:12
Okay, so let's dive in and pull them apart that I'd love to kind of talk more about each of those. And just for our listeners, we're going to keep this fairly high level, because we don't have time to get into super detail on all six. But the plan is actually to take future episodes and maybe pull apart some of these in more detail. So if you're super interested in what we're talking about today, don't worry, we'll we'll dive into more detail. So let's start at the top with physical infrastructure. What does that entail?
Jenna Gillis 22:40
So the physical infrastructure component really targets the challenges and opportunities posed by electric vehicles electrification, climate vulnerability on the grid itself. So we talked a little bit about the fact that we need to start adapting, or continue to adapt our asset management practices to address these factors. So you know, what does that mean that that's things like I talked about before about increasing the rate that we add new technology or remote switches and sensors and things like that into the system. And I talked before about resiliency and flexibility. And a corporate part of this is, you know, incorporating an increased level of climate risk consideration into our, you know, acid assessments and our plan for renewal or replacement of those devices.
Trevor Freeman 23:28
Yeah, so this part of the strategy is really about, you know, the actual devices in the field that are going to be installed the new technology that we want to get out into the field on our grid. Let's let's pick apart that last piece a little bit, the climate vulnerability, how are we also trying to, you know, for lack of a better word, harden our grid, or make it a little more resilient to some of the the weather events we're seeing?
Jenna Gillis 23:52
Yeah, so I think everybody's probably well aware that it's not about, you know, if we're going to see, you know, another large weather round, it's about, it's about when. We've always incorporated those types of things into our asset planning. But now, the frequency and severity of these things is becoming higher and higher. So what we started looking at is, you know, reliability has always been a priority. But now we're shifting gears a little bit to resilience. So I talked about that before. And that's more about withstanding and recovering quickly from the events, like I said, we know they're going to happen. So how are we going to make sure that we can recover as quickly as possible. So with looking at that, we're looking at things like reviewing our design elements, like strengthening the poles that we install or doing strategic undergrounding and sections of overhead lines that we know have a high exposure, and like subsequent consequence of failure. So we are building all of these strategies now as well into that asset management in the deployment of what we're putting out into the field.
Trevor Freeman 24:50
Great. And again, just for our listeners, you know, I want to talk more about what we're doing and what can be done on that climate resiliency piece. So there, you know, keep your eyes open for further episode on that down the road. Okay, so the next piece you talked about is sensing and measurement at a high level, talk us through what that what that means and how that contributes to overall grid effectiveness.
Jenna Gillis 25:13
Yeah, so sensing and measurement is more than just installing the physical devices that we kind of talked about in the previous component. And its devices like sensors to detect faults and report back and where there might be disturbances or outages on the system. And it's more than just meters on customer homes, it's about integrating that data back into our grid management systems. So you know, our ultimate goal is to have real time access to all of the data from our customer meters, you know, that's over 350,000 meters. But to achieve this, we need to have a robust strategy to transfer that information store that information, at the right frequency, meaning in terms of, you know, how often do we get the information from this devices? And how often do we receive that information back in the office for all of the different use cases, and there's, you know, there's hundreds of use cases for that information. So this does represent a significant shift in the way that we're using our meters right now. Right now, when I talk about our customer meters, we take a reading from those once every 24 hours, with hourly level of granular data. So it's basically once every 24 hours, we get 24 points of data. You know, and we're talking about what we want to do with grid modernization, we're looking at, you know, reading those meters, you know, once a minute with more information. So you can see there is a huge shift in the way that we've got kind of the infrastructure set up around those things.
Trevor Freeman 26:43
When you talk about those numbers, so 24 data points every or every day, changing to potentially reading every minute. Remember, we're multiplying that by 350,000. So that's a huge amount of data. And, you know, Jenna and I are working for hydro Ottawa here, one of the sort of medium size utilities in the province of Ontario, we've got other utilities in the sector that have millions of customers. So the importance of data and how we handle that, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute is certainly really high on the priority list. You know, some of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like what we call advanced metering infrastructure 2.0 or AMI 2.0. So for those kind of in the industry that know what that is, that's maybe the next generation of meters, we might be talking about, how does that differ from the existing smart meters that exist all across Ontario? And that doesn't mean they exist everywhere in North America, but at least in Ontario, we've got kind of what we call AMI 1.0. What does AMI 2.0 look like? And how does that change things?
Jenna Gillis 27:50
Yeah, so there's kind of one key critical factor, AMI 1.0 was rolled out with, you know, one main purpose, that's billing. And so our meters are set and our communication infrastructure is set up to again, report back on a frequency that makes sense for monthly billing. So like I said, in other words, that's a once a day reading. And so that data is stored and available the next day, so not, not what we would call real time. So this information is incredibly valuable. And we do use it for planning and supporting operational processes. But it doesn't allow us to respond real time to the conditions on the system, right down to that customer level. So AMI 2.0, which is basically fate. You know, the next step from that first level of having, you know, meters that we can read remotely from the office is more just about than, like I mentioned before about installing sensors, it's not just changing those meters, we talked about the data requirement. And so it's also a substantial upgrade to our communication infrastructure to get that higher volume of data back from the field. And what are we going to use that information for? Like, why is it important to have it real time as opposed to you know, the next day, it's because these meters will be able to give us things like a power off notification. So we talked before about the fact that we do still rely right now on our customers calling in to let us know that they are out of power in the future with AMI 2.0. The intention will be that these meters will report right back into that outage management system. And we will know as soon as that meter sends a signal, say, Oh, I've lost power. The second piece of that is we'd want to know when your power comes back on. So we're going through we're doing our restoration efforts, we want to make sure that we're picking everybody up. So we'd also be able to get a signal coming back on and say like yep, I just turned back on. So having this visibility right down to the customer level gives us so much more flexibility in terms of how we can respond to the system in real time. The other one it also opens a whole bunch of other future use cases such as you know, we talked about unlocking benefits for our customers as well but real time data but their energy uses and you know, providing additional tools or software to help them look at their consumption and overall save money on their bill. So I'm then that's a future step. We're not there today, but the work is on the way to achieve that. And that, you know, those are some of our guiding principles around what we're doing for grid modernization. Yeah really highlights how powerful it can be to know what's happening in real time at every, you know, end use of our entire grid, every customer knowing exactly where the issues are exactly when they get resolved or don't get results. So that's pretty powerful information. So, as we've kind of talked about, there's a natural tie over from having that sensing and metering equipment out in the field, gathering that data, and then getting that data back to our system office where we can use it. And that's where communication comes in. So tell us about the critical role that our communication technology will play. So today, hydro has a communication network that we've spent our entire service to territory, and it uses a bunch of different technologies or different channels like cellular networks, radio, fibre phone lines, so we've got a diverse communication network that sees across our service territory. So again, kind of parallel in the way that we've been deploying some of these smart technologies. This strategy is very effective and accommodating the sensing and measurement control devices that we've been doing today. But again, we are talking about an increase in data we're talking about an increase of physical devices means that we need faster higher capacity methods to get that data from the field back into our systems. So again, this is all part of the strategy that we're focused on is making sure that we have this backbone communication infrastructure ready to connect these devices into. We don't have all the answers on that yet. But we know roughly where we need to get to. And again, it's part of this roadmap to make sure that we achieve those objectives.
Trevor Freeman 31:47
So when we talk about communication and sending data over communication networks, increasingly, we all know, the challenges with cybersecurity. And people may be wondering, how are we going to protect all this data that's now flowing, that's giving real time information about you know, power use on our grid? How does cybersecurity fit in within this plan.
Jenna Gillis 32:08
So we do have a robust cybersecurity standards that we follow, and a dedicated team who looks after these things for us. So as we know, as the grid becomes more and more connected, cybersecurity becomes an even more crucial part of this. And it's a critical factor. And we you know, we mentioned it as one of the core objectives of the program is to, you know, maintain our security. So if you think about it in the past, when we went and you know, just installed a device that, you know, somebody could go in and control from a bucket truck, you didn't have to incorporate cybersecurity standards, you didn't have to, you know, have a device, go through the multiple levels of checks and validation that we have to do things today. So it is another another shift in the way that we operate, right is that and again, we need to keep pace on the technology standpoint of things, not just the physical device.
Trevor Freeman 32:58
Totally. Okay. So there's definitely a bit of a flow here, because we talked about the data in the field, we talked about communication. Now we've got that data coming into hydronic, into our system office, we kind of move into that next piece, you talked about data management and analytics. How does all this data help us transform our grid? What do we do with this data once we get it?
Jenna Gillis 33:22
Yeah, so raw data coming from the field isn't overly valuable, what you need to do is you need to have an established framework for that information to allow the users to access that in real time. And so when I'm talking users right now, you know I'm talking about it could be a number of different meanings. But today, we're really talking about our hydro Ottawa control room operators, I'm talking about, you know, our planning teams, our operations teams, and our maintenance systems information. So you need to make sure that you have a framework to access that information in meaningful formats. So you know, eventually, once we get a sense of what this information is, and we have a robust strategy around it, we could be providing that information to customers for their energy management systems and use cases like we talked about before. So the other piece is as we collect more and more information on the condition and use of our assets, we can refine and enhance our decision making planning operations, asset management becomes more and more formed. So each one of these pieces of data is critical, but you need to make sure that you have a strong framework around it. So you are gleaning the value from that information.
Trevor Freeman 34:24
Yeah, I mean, you're kind of talking about analytics here. And, you know, analytics is essentially combing through that vast amount of raw data and pulling out insights to make smart evidence based decisions. I know I'm asking you to kind of look in a crystal ball here, but what kinds of insights are you expecting to get once we have access to all this data?
Jenna Gillis 34:45
Yeah, so really, the expectation is, the more information we have about how the grid operates and performs under a variety of different conditions. We'll be better able to plan and optimize that configuration when I talked before about you know that grid resiliency, so What is the best configuration of our of our network? Where do we have problems downstream that we maybe didn't see before. But now we see. So we can start setting things up differently. It will help us enhance our ability to appropriately size and prioritize our investments and make better use of the existing assets that we have. So in light of all these uncertainties we got about electric vehicles electrification and climate risks. The more information we have at our fingertips, the quicker we're going to be able to respond and adjust our strategies to keep up with those market drivers.
Trevor Freeman 35:34
Yeah, you. So asset utilization is a really fascinating piece. And again, you know, this isn't the episode to dive into that. But just quickly, for our listeners, you know, you may be familiar that utility companies have to design to peak load. So we need to be able to provide the highest amount of power that people need, whether it's a hot, sunny summer afternoon, and everyone's got their air conditioning on. But while we're not using that peak load, assets are sitting underutilized, we're not using the capacity we need. And the more of that capacity we can use, the better. And by putting in some of this technology. By gaining those insights, if we can do appropriate, switching or better planning to utilize our assets better, everybody wins, our grid is more effective, it's more economical. And I think we're all in better shape. So great to see where we're going with that. The next component you talked about is control and optimization. So we talked about how we control the grid today and how it's kind of a manual process. We have, you know, really smart folks sitting in our system office who are making important decisions. How does that control evolve with this strategy?
Jenna Gillis 36:48
Yeah, so this layer, this control, and optimization is really about using all of that data to make informed decisions. So one, we're actually undergoing one big transformation, transformative project right now. And you You referenced it earlier, it's our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. So what this is, is it's really a complete modernization of the software tools used by our control room operators. So the individuals sitting at the desk watching the state of the grid 24/7 365. So to give you a sense of what they're using today to see that picture is the operators have to interact with at least five separate systems right now that are not integrated to gain all that full picture. So the intent of this project, and the main driver is to paint one pane of glass for the operators, it's amalgamating those five separate systems into one view, to give them better insights into the status system. So we're going to be Malkin ating, these five systems, but also then incorporating more of this field data that we've talked about collecting as well. So some of the things that we kind of lock with the advanced distribution management system that we aren't capable of doing today is working towards implementing a fault location, isolation and service restoration scheme. So if you're in the industry, that's well known as FLISAR. So what this is
Trevor Freeman 38:06
a fantastic name, by the way.
Jenna Gillis 38:08
Yeah, what this is really about is two way communication to and from these field devices and sensors to get a sense of where we might be seeing issues on on the distribution system. So where we have faults, or where we have outages occurring, this system will then it's an analytic platform that takes all the information back and it can propose to the operators switching to restore as many customers as we can and isolate that faulted section with line. This future step of that is once we get comfortable, and we know the system and the analytics are working effectively is to allow the system to do it automatically. So instead of proposing switching to an operator who can make the decision and then perform the switching or roll a field crew, eventually we'd be able to do this automatically. So once the system is configured, and we've got all those remotely operable devices in the field, we would allow the system to make automatic decisions and restore and isolate the faulted sections
Trevor Freeman 39:03
So I mean, you're talking about analyzing data and making decisions automatically. It's kind of sounds like AI a little bit, which, of course, is a pretty, you know, buzzword these days in a lot of different sectors. Does, does AI come into play here in terms of making decisions and controlling things on the grid?
Jenna Gillis 39:22
Yeah, so I mean, we have a number of use cases that we're looking at right now with AI. And obviously, the more data we get, the more opportunities we have to leverage technology and AI. So some of the things we're looking at right now is things like predicting and forecasting demand levels or load levels that are on the distribution grid based on you know, a number of inputs, so like the grid status, what's the weather going to be? What did you know? What was the historical loading and things like that? And when you have multiple factors like that, that feed into, you know, what is your customers load going to be? You need something like AI to be able to digest all of that information and come up with recommendations another one This is just analyzing multiple sensors and control boards to help us predict failures. So the more more information we're getting back on the assets, we can use AI to help us explore build models to help us identify exceptions in those large amounts of data. And in order to be able to flag potential failures, and allow us to intervene and course correct before, you know, they potentially cause an outage or something like that.
Trevor Freeman 40:23
Yeah, so that would be and correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong here and interpreting this wrong. That's like, taking a bunch of data points on our existing equipment is running, maybe you know that the temperature that we're seeing, or the loading on that equipment and how that relates to its normal operating load, and be able to say, we think based on the operating conditions, this piece of equipment is likely to fail faster than otherwise it would, is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah,
Jenna Gillis 40:49
Yeah, exactly. Or even in real time, this piece of equipment is going to overload. And so you need to take intervention and move load around door, something like that as well. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Trevor Freeman 40:58
Yeah. And all of that data. I mean, that's all things that we know how to do. But no human can possibly do that in real time with the amount of data coming in. And so that's where some of this advanced technology and AI, artificial intelligence really comes into play to help us pull that out of the massive sea of data that we're going to be getting. Okay. Okay, so the last component, you mentioned it, you know, on the surface, it might seem like a bit of an outlier business and regulatory, but I think it really ties it all together. And it's, again, one of those foundational pieces. So you know, that the electricity sector is highly regulated, as our listeners probably know, it's extremely complex to navigate. It has been accused, in the past of, you know, not being very conducive to innovation and change. What are some of the priority areas that you've identified, whether that's, you know, dialogue with our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, or just, you know, regulations and policies, internal or external to our organization that that you think, need to come into play to make this modernization happen?
Jenna Gillis 42:06
Yeah, the whole objective of kind of the business and regulatory stream through good moderization is about building a holistic approach to build operational structures and processes to be able to address and respond to these dynamic market drivers. So one of our big priorities right now is to raise awareness of this of this approach. And the fact that we're broadening our investment categories beyond what you know, I'd consider to be those traditional asset condition or reliability or end of life types of drivers to know, include and layer into it these system observability, these control points and this resiliency, which is a shift in terms of you know, how how we we've justified or how a regulator has looked at the way that we do business in the past. But we also make sure we need to look internally. So it's not just about looking externally and making sure that we're aligned with our regulator, but it's about looking at our internal business process to make sure that we're aligned to deliver the value that we've set out for the grid modernization objectives. So we need to make sure that we have mechanisms to be able to measure our success, and feed that back into continuous improvement I talked about the roadmap is, is needing to be a dynamic, so we need to make sure that we're monitoring our progress towards the delivering of those chapters, and have ability to stop and pivot where we need to when we need to
Trevor Freeman 43:24
this kind of opened the door for new business models or new way of doing things? And are there like specific pilots that we're considering or specific initiatives?
Jenna Gillis 43:35
Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on in the electricity sector right now, one of the big kind of hot topics right now is that there's indications that local distribution companies may need to in the future operate in a similar capacity to the way the Independent Electricity System Operator behaves. So, the ISO they control and dispatch the bulk systems. So they look at they do forecasting on you know, the Ontario energy needs, and they throttle on and off generation and those types of things, the thought is, this is going to be needed at the local level. So they look at you know, hydro, it was service territory level, we may need to look at dispatching generation and doing dynamic load management and things like that. And this is this is a holistic change to the way that we operate right now. And so we need to be able to future proof ourselves to move down that path if that's where things go and dispatching energies resources. I said it kind of as you know, it's just it's one thing, but it's really it's we talked about a little bit of a comprehensive analysis system to take in all of those inputs and understand forecasting and where things are going to be including an economic factors and all the different customer types, including, you know, the widespread adoption of electric vehicles or battery storage, so it can get to be quite a complex system.
Trevor Freeman 44:59
Yeah. it kinda sounds here, like you're talking about the distribution system operator model or DSO. And, and again, you know, like I've said a couple of times, I think there's a future conversation or future episode about that. But it's like you say, having the distributors, the local distribution companies, able to make decisions on how energy is used within our grid, and then that feeds up into how I saw was running the kind of broader provincial grid. So I'll put a pin in that one. And we'll come back to that on a on a future episode.
Jenna Gillis 45:31
And, yeah, and so something that's important for us to understand too, is if we do go down the road of a DSO, we need to know where and what could impact our operations or where we could have those triggers or throttles on the distribution system. So right now, we're undertaking a pilot program as well, looking at evey charging, and we've called it EV everywhere. And I'm sure everybody's well aware that EVs are, you know, could be a huge dynamic load that show up on our system anywhere at any time whenever, whenever somebody wants to plug in their vehicle. And there's also talked about using EV batteries as an energy source to feed back into the system to help grid capacity constraints. While that still might be a long way off, there are still solutions that we want to manage to leverage the Chargers. And we've looked at, you know, instead of having everybody come in and come home from and you know, after work, plug in their their EV and start charging at 5pm. And causing, you know, a new peak in our demand, looking to be able to stagger that charging and whether that's staggered at local community level, whether that's needing to stagger at, we talked about a substation level or whether we need to stagger that at a whole hydro Ottawa service, territory capacity. So EV everywhere is really looking at the use of artificial intelligence to help us make those predictions about where and when and how long EV charging needs are required and being able to manage those devices. So that it reduces the impact on our distribution network. And we talked about increase our asset utilization. And we're hoping to be able to push that beyond just the pilot stage that we're in today.
Trevor Freeman 47:05
Yeah, and really, that's, you know, for, for the end user, for our customers, that's gonna help us remove barriers to you getting that EV and being able to charge at home or where you live or where you work. So that we're not having to modify the grid drastically in order to allow that, we want to make that process as easy as possible. And this is testing out a strategy to do that. So, Jenna, that's super fantastic to hear about this roadmap that you have. And I mean, look, the listeners out there who know me know that I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm pretty excited about this stuff. But I think it's important to highlight some of the risks. So it's a great roadmap, it's a great plan, what could trip us up what could get in the way of us being able to implement the strategy and rolling it out as you envisioned it?
Jenna Gillis 47:56
I think the first one is that this is, this is large, this is transformative. This touches multiple business areas and, and is, is driven by multiple outside influences. So we need to make sure that we've got holistic change management strategies, we need to look at the pace of change that we're implementing, and not necessarily on the distribution grid, but also on our systems, our process our people. So we need time to make sure that when we introduce a large change that we have some settle in, we have some time to adjust and correct and, you know, keep that dynamic continuous improvement process, as we move from one, it's going to be moved from one change to the next set at pretty rapid pace over the next few years. And with all that change, we need to have the right people, we need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So these are new responsibilities, new skill sets to the organization, and I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So take a look at our careers page. And if I've, if I've painted an exciting picture, and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today. And this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So I feel like in the past, we kind of had you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program. And then and then you're done no like this is this is going to be a continuous evolution. And these can span multi years. And I talked about it before, we need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers. And we need to expect that and so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multi year programs. To make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through, and that's okay, we can do that.
Trevor Freeman 49:36
Yeah, I think if there's one kind of common theme that comes up in these conversations that I get to have as part of, as part of the show is this is big change that we're talking about here. This is sort of fundamental change within not just one organization within an entire sector and we're all trying to figure out how we do it, we've all got different ideas, and we're working together. And I think your your point about, we need the right people to do that we need people that are really passionate about this and really smart, and see the opportunity to create that change and realize, hey, you know, the utility is not a bad spot to do that it's kind of at the epicenter of a lot of what we're doing here when it comes to energy. So great thoughts. So, I mean, that's kind of the end of the grid modernization question. So I don't know if if now we get into the the easier part of the conversation or the harder part. By we,
Jenna Gillis 50:35
you're talking, you're talking to an engineer. So when we talk personal, it's harder than the techniques of the technology.
Trevor Freeman 50:42
Awesome. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate. So we we always end our show with with the same questions to our guests. And it just kind of helps us learn a little bit more about you. So as long as you're okay with it, we're gonna dive right in.
Jenna Gillis 50:56
Yeah, let's do it.
Trevor Freeman 50:58
So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Jenna Gillis 51:01
So I mean, I think I kind of already touched on it. And the fact that these were the more uncomfortable questions for me. One book that I read that I really enjoyed is as quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Cain. She has a TED talk, too. So if you want to kind of get a short snippet of what she's talking about, but really, it's about dynamics of how our world emphasizes extraversion, and basically everything that we set up and everything we do, and so we need to make sure that we're allowing space for our introverts.
Trevor Freeman 51:31
Great,I like that. What about a movie or a show?
Jenna Gillis 51:35
So I'm not a big movie person. But I've got a TV show. It's pretty niche. It's called the Curse of Oak Island, I'm sure probably not very many people know what I'm talking about. But I followed the story from the beginning. So the show started airing a long time ago. It's basically about a 200 year old treasure hunting mystery in Nova Scotia, touches on archaeology and some potential connections right back to the Knights Templar. So I've become pretty invested in it. It's one show
Trevor Freeman 52:04
is your next vacation to Halifax to go and check out the Oak Island and find this treasure?
Jenna Gillis 52:09
You know, I think it would be pretty cool maybe once like to go and see see what they're doing and like the the size and scale of what they're doing, but I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a whole trip to it.
Trevor Freeman 52:21
Good to know well on that note, what if somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world? Where would you go?
Jenna Gillis 52:29
Yeah, so not not Nova Scotia. I'd love to be able to be out and see the northern lights. So somewhere like Iceland or Greenland, I think, seeing seeing something totally different than what I'm used to here in here in Ottawa.
Trevor Freeman 52:44
very cool. Who is someone that you admire?
Jenna Gillis 52:47
So I feel like this is gonna be really cliche given that Taylor Swift has recently released another another album. But Taylor Swift, I think she's incredibly powerful and positive female influence and think she's a great role model. She's got strong big business strategy and authenticity. So I think she's, she's a great role model for girls to be looking up to.
Trevor Freeman 53:12
Yeah, I'm, I'm currently I'm not ashamed to admit I'm currently going through her eras tour with my kids right now. We're watching it and kind of little bits and pieces here. And while we're watching, and I'm texting my nieces, because they're big. They're big Swifties. So that's a great example. And finally, and you're a great person to, to answer this question being kind of right out in the weeds of the energy change. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?
Jenna Gillis 53:42
It's really about the pace of change. So I, you know, we talked about like, I've been with hydro water for about 16 years now. And I feel like we've always been saying it's coming. It's coming. It's right on the horizon, right. So it's here, we're seeing it, we've always been kind of forecasting and wondering when it was going to hit and it's here. So I love that we need to be innovative. I love that we need to rethink the way that we're doing things. And I'm super excited to start breaking down silos and building these cohesive strategies and working together to problem solve, because it's more important now than ever to, to build that integration with, you know, everybody on the team. So that's what I'm super excited about.
Trevor Freeman 54:18
Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's, that's what keeps me coming into work every day to I really like them. Jenna, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights with us on what hydro Ottawa is doing when it comes to grid modernization and just kind of sharing your experience and your expertise on how we're changing and getting ready for the future. I really appreciate it.
Jenna Gillis 54:39
Well, thanks,Trevor. Hopefully I did. I did some justice to what we're doing. And hopefully I've piqued some interest in diving deeper into some of these very specific initiatives that we've got underway.
Trevor Freeman 54:51
Absolutely. And don't be surprised if I reach back out to you to come and dive deeper on some of those as well. So we'll have you back on another time.
Jenna Gillis 54:58
Perfect. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Appreciate it.
Trevor Freeman 55:01
Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or our guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydroottawa.com
Summer rewind: Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and contributions shaping the energy landscape.
Related links
Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/
Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/
Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button
Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel
Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Trevor Freeman
Hey everyone. Well, it's officially summer, and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry, though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair, Dan Sagan, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months, and you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer, and we'll be back with new content in September, and until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 0:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:23
Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.
Trevor Freeman 6:27
Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:49
Sure thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.
Trevor Freeman 8:09
Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?
Teresa Sarkesian 8:40
Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.
Trevor Freeman 13:40
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?
Teresa Sarkesian 14:42
Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.
Trevor Freeman 18:41
Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, Who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?
Teresa Sarkesian 18:59
Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.
Trevor Freeman 20:31
Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're gonna keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?
Teresa Sarkesian 21:38
That's a great question, Trevor. So look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So we need to have that temerity, that two way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.
Trevor Freeman 26:07
Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?
Teresa Sarkesian 28:22
Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.
Trevor Freeman 32:02
Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.
Teresa Sarkesian 33:28
I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.
Trevor Freeman 34:21
Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back office improvement?
Teresa Sarkesian 35:23
So I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seems to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,
Trevor Freeman 37:28
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,
Teresa Sarkesian 38:42
Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.
Trevor Freeman 43:50
Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that a an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So . Yeah, great filling some of those out. So I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government.
Teresa Sarkesian 45:32
So I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.
Trevor Freeman 48:12
If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.
Teresa Sarkesian 49:00
Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point you need to pull off the band aid said, Yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so I said, Okay, that's exciting. So people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.
Trevor Freeman 52:54
Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?
Teresa Sarkesian 54:30
Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnerships with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There's all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.
Trevor Freeman 58:27
Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?
Teresa Sarkesian 59:03
Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.
Trevor Freeman 59:11
It's my job.
Teresa Sarkesian 59:11
So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.
Trevor Freeman 1:00:26
Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:01:56
So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:19
Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:02:24
I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:52
Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:00
Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to
Trevor Freeman 1:03:09
Have you been there before?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:11
No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,
Trevor Freeman 1:03:16
Totally. Who is someone that you admire?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:18
for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.
That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:04
Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:23
Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:45
For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:57
Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.
Trevor Freeman 1:05:00
Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com
HYDRO_ThinkEnergy_Aug5_Audio
Wed, Jul 31, 2024 1:07PM • 30:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
energy, canada, side, country, council, utility, ultimately, philip, big, clean energy, single, transition, challenge, governments, perspective, climate, decarbonize, involved, work, electricity
SPEAKERS
Trevor Freeman, Dan Seguin, Philippe Dunsky
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Everyone, well, it's officially summer and the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next two months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan Seguin as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well. Wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Right now, there are scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, indigenous and industry leaders, helping to shape the direction that Canada will take to accelerate a transition to clean energy. Everywhere you look, whether it's academia, municipal, provincial, or federal governments, there's another council or committee being formed to address the most pressing issues of our time, climate change, from transitioning to sustainable energy sources, electrifying transportation, and improving energy efficiency to protecting our natural environment and reducing carbon emissions. One thing is for certain our country is embracing the renewable revolution, like never before. But those with seats at the decision table know that it must be done responsibly, and affordable. As we know, every region of Canada is unique and presents its own set of challenges and opportunities when it comes to tackling climate change, and ways to implement clean energy. So here is today's big question. How did we get such a vast and diverse country like Canada to agree on a pathway forward to a cleaner, greener and more sustainable energy future? Joining us today is Philippe Dunsky of Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors, a consultancy firm that Philippe founded. It supports government, utilities, corporations across North America to accelerate their transition to clean energy. Phillippe, is the co chair of Canada's new Canada electricity Advisory Council, the co chair of efficiency Canada, and the director of the greater Montreal Climate Fund. He also previously chaired the Quebec government electrification Working Group. Welcome to the show, Philippe. Let's start by asking you this. Having just gone over some of your accomplishments, where does this passion for clean energy and climate come from? Where did it start?
Philippe Dunsky 02:44
So, so great to be here. By the way, thank you so much for having me. It started, I guess, I guess very early on. I'm Jewish background and grew up with, you know, endless stories about the Holocaust. And somehow that kind of morphed into just a general interest for world affairs and for big challenges, big societal challenges. And then as I was growing up, those became really focused on environmental issues. So that was the genesis. I became very, very interested in environmental issues. And then through that, and climate change in particular, as probably the greatest challenge of my generation, and for my generation. And then, I guess the other thing is, I've come to discover that I'm a pretty analytical guy. So I'm not a no great protester, I'm not a great to great movement leader, I tend to see a lot of gray, not so much black and white. And so that's how I ended up deciding to get involved in these issues. But, you know, in my own way through more of an analytical lens,
Dan Seguin 03:55
Okay, you've served and are serving on numerous councils, committees and boards. Can you tell us what has been the biggest takeaway you've learned through each collaboration? And how has it changed you?
Philippe Dunsky 04:11
Yeah, because each one does change you and changes your perspectives. Because ultimately, the biggest takeaway is that no matter how much I think I know this stuff and know this stuff. Well, and I've been working on energy issues for over 30 years now. And so, you know, I always end up thinking that I know the answer. What we discover is that, you know, there's not a single answer, there are many perspectives. And if you can combine knowledge with multiple perspectives, then you can come up with something that's hopefully going to be closer to that, you know, to that truth, or whatever you want to call it. My big learning is that every time you go into something like this, you go in with an open mind and an open heart. And if you do that, and you're listening to others perspectives, then you're bound to land on something that's a hell of a lot smarter. And then what you initially thought coming into it?
Dan Seguin 05:02
Okay, cool. Now, you were appointed chair for a recently formed Canada electricity Advisory Council. Can you tell our listeners who's on it? What is the mandate? And just how big of an undertaking is this?
Philippe Dunsky 05:19
Sure, I can start with the last question, by the way, that the undertaking, it's a really big issue, it's a really big challenge. On the other hand, the undertaking itself is time limited, it's a 12 month thing. So I'm a pumpkin and I turned into a pumpkin in May. It's been five months now. So I got another seven to go. From that perspective, that's the timing that we're looking at. Okay, Council itself is a group of 18 Canadians from across the country, every single, every single province, no exception. It's, it's extraordinary mix of individuals with an extraordinary mix of experience and perspective. So I'd say roughly half of council members are either current or former utility executives. The other half is a bit more of an eclectic mix of former regulators, we have people involved in the power production side of things, we have first nations leaders, so indigenous leaders, and a couple of others with different perspectives to bring to the table. But the really important thing here, I think, is that you're looking at the leadership level from every single province across the country. And that makes for really, really enlightening and challenging conversations as well. And then I guess you asked about the purpose or the mandate of the council. So I'll put it at a very, very fundamental level as a country, we're trying to largely decarbonize electricity by sometime in the middle of the 2030s. And we're looking to grow electricity, very substantially to decarbonize the rest of the economy. By 2050. That's that dual set of goals is at the heart of our mandate. And our mandate is to figure out what the feds can and must do. And at the same time, what can and must be done by others in the country, to help make this an easier journey, a more affordable journey. And ultimately, a more successful journey on the way there.
Dan Seguin 07:22
Okay, great segue here. Now, with respect to Canada's goal to achieve a 100%, Net Zero electricity system by 2035, you stated, "Is it better to optimize than maximize? Can you maybe break that down for us? And can you give us some examples?
Philippe Dunsky 07:41
Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, what I mean by that is, if all we do is say we want to decarbonize, there are many, many paths to do that. And, you know, we can say, hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna build, build, build, build, build until there's no tomorrow. And we could probably get there, doing nothing but that, but we'll get there in a less affordable way, than if we really think through the intricacies of what needs to be done. Yes, on adding, also on subtracting, so actually becoming more efficient in the way we use energy, relying more on consumers' involvement in the marketplace to achieve some of those goals. I just think there are quick ways to get to the goal, that ultimately, are going to cost too much and or create reliability issues. And if that happens, there'll be a backlash. And we'll never get to the goal. Alternatively, there, they're thoughtful ways that maybe aren't exactly the way we've always done things in the past, but that involve a lot more complexity and being able to wrestle with complexity and stuff. But ways that are focused on keeping this as affordable as possible, ultimately, for everyone across Canada, making sure that we do this in a way that's reliable, so we can always count on electricity being there. And in doing it in a way that actually involves some cooperation, as well.
Dan Seguin 09:04
So the electricity Council fulfills the minister's mandate to establish a pan Canadian grid Council. How viable is a pan Canadian electricity grid? Or are you seeing your movement in regional interconnections?
Philippe Dunsky 09:22
Yeah, so it definitely looks regional. Let me be really clear about that. And I know the original Originally, the name for the council was supposed to be the pan Canadian grid Council, as you pointed out, you'll also notice it, it was not it does not have that name. And there's a reason for that. And, and I will say, you know, and I've said this publicly many times, I don't believe that that's the right answer. We definitely need a lot more cooperation. at the regional level. There are a lot of opportunities for provinces to exchange more to continue exchanging with the US by the way, and this isn't, you know, we're not caught within, within our borders. So we have to do more on the cooperation side to keep costs down again, as low as possible to make this as smart and thoughtful and as achievable as possible. But that doesn't involve, you know, I love the old Coast to Coast Railway analogy. It's nice, it's working for railways. We're not talking about a single grid that goes coast to coast that's just not in the cards.
Dan Seguin 10:28
Now, for those who are not aware, can you tell us about your firm, its purpose, and what makes your approach unique, and particularly effective?
Philippe Dunsky 10:40
Sure, I mean, I'm thrilled talking about my firm. So these days, I spend so much time talking about look Council, which is kind of like my evenings and nighttime job, or evenings and weekend job. But my day job is running my firm, my firm is a group of over 50 professionals. Now, I think we're about 55 now that are dedicated exclusively to supporting clients in their clean energy transitions. And our clients typically are utilities and governments, increasingly large corporate clients as well, across Canada and across the US. So ultimately we work with utilities and governments that are in the throes of this energy transition, that are trying to figure it out. They're trying to find a way to help their customers navigate through it and a way for themselves to navigate through it, to define what the business case is for them and what their proper role is in it. And, and then we also have helped them in some of the nitty gritty. So, you know do you get customers involved on the demand side management side to reduce the pressure on right on the big build out? And all the capital is involved there? You know, what do we need to do to electrify vehicles, for example. So we've developed for some places, charging, charging infrastructure plans and charging infrastructure, business, business plans, strategies, investment plans, we work with, with our, with our customers in helping helping to decarbonize buildings through whether it's direct electrification, or hybrid heating systems without just the natural gas, depending on the on the need, we work with to decarbonize industrial loads, as well. And oftentimes, we're working with our utility customers to help them help their industrial customers decarbonize. So all of those things, and more and of course, planning out the whole transformation of the electricity system on the supply side, is a big part of it. That's a lot of what we do. It's hard to put in a single sentence. But the interesting thing, I guess, for us is, you know, ultimately, we're a consulting shop that is exclusively focused on the clean energy transition, we do nothing other than that. And, and I think that makes us pretty darn good at it.
Dan Seguin 13:02
That's perfect. Phillippe, your company emphasizes support in four focus areas, buildings, mobility, Industry and Energy. How were those identified? And can you maybe provide some specific projects or initiatives that have made a significant difference in the sector's?
Philippe Dunsky 13:25
Yeah, sure. And those sectors are, you know, 80 to 90%, of the energy equation, right. So they've grown over time, in a very deliberate manner, we started out working on the building side of the equation. So you know, what we call DSM or in Ontario, you call it CDM. Just to be different. But so we started out working on that. And then over time, we added mobility, especially electric mobility to our portfolio of expertise, and then built out from there, including on the generation and TND side, in terms of some examples. I mean, I'll be honest with you, we do well over 100 projects a year now. So there are a lot of different ones with a pretty large variety. But for example, I actually just came back from meeting with one of our clients, a large, large electric utility, where we've helped them to revamp their whole CDM approach. So that's, you know, from top to bottom, on the strategy side, on the regulatory side, and then on what the programs actually look like and how they operate and who they involve. In Ontario, we actually completed something I think is absolutely fascinating. I really enjoyed reading it. And that was a study of the potential of Drs. So distributed energy resources in Ontario to essentially keep the lights on, you know, we found 1000s of megawatts of exploitable resources there that you don't need to build because they're already there on the customer side of the meter. So stuff like that. We've worked with a lot of states in the US including California and New York designing, designing measure is to help their customers finance, the transition on their side, we've done a lot of work with, with utility executives helping them think through the strategy side of this, how am I going to actually the change management? How may I change my own utility to go from what it was in that steady state environment of the past 75 years to something that is a completely different beast in a very much more dynamic world. And it's focused on customer service and, and focused on transitioning the energy system as a whole. So, again, a pretty broad array of, of projects, but all of them. Absolutely. Absolutely exciting. And, and fascinating for me to be involved in and learn from.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Okay, now, wondering if you can speak to the importance of responsible and sustainable practices in the clean energy sector? And how has your company prioritized these principles in his work?
Philippe Dunsky 16:00
Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, look, the world right now is looking to the energy sector to lead and to transform itself. And as we do that, you know, leaders have to have to walk the talk. So, you know, I'm, I'm very proud that most, if not all of my clients are doing that right now within their own operations. And my firm does that in our operations. I try to do that, in my own life, I've been driving nav for seven years. Now, it's a great way for me to, to, to lead by example, but also, quite frankly, to get a head and on the experience curve, and actually understand from personal experience, all right, what are the challenges of of EV ownership and what needs to happen to make it a more seamless process? So you know, that's on the personal side, my company, we're actually a B Corp. So we went through a process to be certified by an independent organization that looks at all of our practices, from soup to nuts. And in our score, our B Corp score has increased. Year over year, I think we started out somewhere about 80 Something points, and now we're at 119. So you know, it's just a process of continuous improvement, just like, just like all of our clients have to have to do.
Dan Seguin 17:12
Okay, cool. Now, we all know, there's always more every country can be doing to combat climate change. But it's complex. In your opinion, Philippe, how does Canada compare? Is it on the right track, and focusing its effort on the right initiatives?
Philippe Dunsky 17:34
Yeah, I think it's, I think Canada is, is definitely moving in the right direction. I think there have been a lot of very important policies brought forward over the past several years that I think, bring us forward. Are they all done exactly the way I would like them to be done? No, if I had a magic wand, would I do it a little bit differently? Probably, but directionally there. Actually, I think we're heading there. You know, that being said, it's a long and winding road. Right. And it will be for the next decade. So there will be setbacks, and there will be things that we're doing that are suboptimal. And that's a little bit part of life. So my job and the role I've kind of given myself and my firm is to help make that path as straight and narrow as it reasonably can be. But you know, recognizing that this is a big learning process and, and mistakes you're gonna make for sure.
Dan Seguin 18:31
Now, Philippe, what are some of the biggest challenges or even threats to achieving a clean energy future in the timeline set out by scientists and the government? How is your company positioned to address them?
Philippe Dunsky 18:46
The biggest challenges and threats and I'll decouple those questions, okay. Because I think that, from my perspective, there are enormous challenges. There's first and foremost, a challenge of time, right? Because what we're talking about if we're talking about, you know, getting to net zero or something like it by 2050. I mean, that's a single generation. So we're talking about literally transforming the backbone of modern economies in a single generation. That is, number one, because frankly, that's never been done before. We've done it within sectors, right, we've done we went from, from horse drawn carriages, to to you know, horseless horseless carriages. And you know, we've, we dumped manufacturer, gas and went, went to natural gas, and we've done individual changes like that before. We've never done all at the same time dealing with that and getting it done. The single generation is a race. And so I do think that time is probably the number one challenge number two challenge. And, you know, if you really take a take a step back here and think about what we're talking about it, it's largely from an economic standpoint, we're largely moving from optics to capex, and there's we're largely it moving from a context where whether it's utilities, or business owners or homeowners, today, we pay our bills, you know, we're buying fossil fuels, right, we're buying and burning the energy that we consume. And so that's an OP X thing. Now, what we're talking about is increasingly stuff, that's just all capital, if you think of, you know, going from a gas plant to, let's say, a wind farm, a wind farm is, you know, it's once and done all of the entire cost for next 20 years, or 95% of it goes in the ground on day one, that's moving objects to capex, it's a really big change. If you're thinking of it from a homeowner perspective, we're talking about, let's say, take my example, you know, I bought an Eevee, my Eevee cost a lot more than that my previous gas car did. On the other hand, I'm paying a hell of a lot less to keep it up to optics to capex. So there's a real challenge around getting enough capital for all this to happen, whether it's for large utilities or down to an individual homeowner or car owner, I think that's a real big challenge that we have a couple more, maybe I'll, maybe I'll stop there. And then the things that my firm is doing to address those, I mean, look, like I said before, on the timeline side, everything we're trying to do is just minimize errors, we're not gonna eliminate them, but minimize errors. So that that line between here and there can be as straight as possible, and as least painful as possible on the capital side, that's a very specific thing. But we actually do a lot of work developing innovative financing mechanisms that utilities and governments can offer to homeowners and business owners, to allow them to have access to the capital that they need, as they tried to save money on the operation side. So those are, those are a couple of them, anyhow.
Dan Seguin 21:57
Okay, Philippe, what do you want Canadians to know about the country's transition to clean energy that they might not already know or be aware of?
Philippe Dunsky 22:10
You know, I think, I think everyone is aware that this energy transition is really big, and it's gonna be really hard. Maybe the one thing I'll add on to it is, there's a lot of benefit on the other side of this. So a lot of benefit, you know, what we're talking about ultimately, is, is transformative in nature, it's the sort of thing that's happened. I'm thinking outside of the energy sector, but just holistically, these kinds of changes have happened a few times in the past 100 years or so. And they tend to always be ultimately about moral leadership to start. And so I think we need to think of this, first and foremost from the perspective of moral leadership, which is something that is one of the reasons why Canada has such a great, strong brand around the world, because we punch above our weight on the great moral issues of the times. And that was true when we went to help out Europe during World War Two, and that was that true. And we went Mulrooney led the boycott of South Africa under apartheid. I mean, we've stood up when we've needed to, that has positioned this country internationally in a way that I don't I'm not sure that we fully measure. This is one of those times. And so being at the forefront of this, I think is extraordinarily important for our country as a whole. That being said, there's also some really economic benefits at the end of this and flip it on its head to there's some real economic costs and risks if we don't do this, and if we don't get it right, well, one thing, one thing I'll point to, I remember about 10 years ago, being in conversations with some provincial governments about the possibility of governments eventually taxing imports of our products, if they're too carbon intensive, and the idea sounded a bit crazy back then we're recording this today on October 30 29 days ago, on October 1, Europe's carbon border adjustment mechanism came into effect for the first time. And that is effectively going to tax import of products from everywhere around the world based on their carbon content. So if we get ahead of this fast, if we succeed in this, if we lower our carbon content of what we produce, we've got a hell of a nice economic advantage at the end of it.
Dan Seguin 24:33
Now, what advice would you give to an aspiring entrepreneur or those looking to make a positive impact in the clean energy and climate sectors?
Philippe Dunsky 24:48
You know, my advice is it's gonna sound a little wishy washy, but it's just figuring out what you're great at. You know, everyone's great at something different so I have a hard time. I'm providing really concrete advice to people I don't know personally, but everyone's got their magic. Everyone's got their special exceptionalism. I think it's important to know who you are, know what you really like to do know where you excel, and then whatever that is, to the extent that you can bring that to service of a greater cause, whether it's climate, whether it's portability, whatever it is, I think that's just a beautiful thing. So I encourage everyone to ultimately lead a purpose driven life and, and lean on their own strengths wherever they may be.
Dan Seguin 25:35
Okay, that's fair. Lastly, Philippe, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Maybe. Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?
Philippe Dunsky 25:51
Right now I'm actually sounding nerdy but I'm actually reading the CIA's 2030. Outlook, the latest 2030 outlook by the International Energy Agency. Absolutely fascinating read. If you're a nerd, like I am about energy.
Dan Seguin 26:04
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Philippe Dunsky 26:10
My boat? My boat is a canoe. And what would I name my canoe? I'm not sure. Maybe I named it the Power Canoe. One of the reasons I love canoes, by the way, is they're probably the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B on water. So I'm a big fan of energy efficiency and, and a canoe is just that.
Dan Seguin 26:31
Who is someone that you truly admire Philippe?
Philippe Dunsky 26:35
Oh, goodness, I admire so many people, I couldn't come up with a single name there. You know, I work with a lot of leaders who dedicate their time and energy and excellence to, for public purposes. And every single one of those I'm in deep admiration of, I'll maybe add one other group, the folks I work with here in my firm. I've never known a group of people as dedicated and passionate and smart and curious. As they are, they do inspire me.
Dan Seguin 27:05
Good, good. Okay. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Philippe Dunsky 27:10
I'm from Quebec. So I'm a big fan of the circus, the modern circus, whether it's Cirque du Soleil, Cirque Éloize or les Sédois de la mayenne, they always amaze me and I'll always leave me spellbound.
Dan Seguin 27:24
Okay, next, as a result of the pandemic. Many of us are guilty of watching a lot of Netflix or other streaming platforms. What's your favorite movie or show?
Philippe Dunsky 27:38
You know what, I watched many different Netflix shows. These days. I'm just trying to think what's in bridgerton would be one of them right now. I'm really enjoying it.
Dan Seguin 27:52
Now, lastly, Philippe, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Philippe Dunsky 27:58
What's exciting is the same thing that's exhausting me. And that's the pace of change. It's just an extraordinary time right now. And I'll tell you what's really exciting me is that five years ago, because this is all I do. Right? I'm a one trick pony. So I think about this every day. Five years ago, I felt pretty alone in seeing and understanding the pace of change that we needed today. I feel like pretty much every leader I speak with is very clear eyed about how big this is, how fast it's gotta go, the challenge that it represents, and the near the you know, the knowledge that we need to get going and get going in a big way. So that excites me.
Dan Seguin 28:37
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Philippe Dunsky 28:44
Well, my organization's website is very simple. Dunsky.com. That's probably the easiest, easiest way. And if you want to connect with me, try info@dunsky.com or my own email. The simplest email in the world is philippe@dunsky.com.
Dan Seguin 29:05
Well, Philippe, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Philippe Dunsky 29:15
It was fun. Thank you. I love your questions.
Dan Seguin 29:18
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests from previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Summer rewind: What role do communicators play in motivating change? Specifically, how can they move their audiences to take action against climate change? In thinkenergy episode 122, we delve into the world of climate communication with Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re.Climate. Explore the driving forces, opportunities, and challenges of inspiring climate action—from bridging research to practise to empowering change. Listen in for an insightful conversation on shaping a sustainable future.
Related links
Amber Bennet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abennettyyc/
Re.Climate: https://reclimate.ca/
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-8b612114/
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Transcript
Trevor Freemon
Everyone, well, it's officially summer. And it's been about four months since I took over the mic as the host of the think energy podcast, which is kind of hard to believe. It's been really fun having great conversations with great people in the energy sector. I now mostly know my way around the recording equipments and the software, and really feel like we're kind of just getting started and looking forward to where we go from here. That said, the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next few months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan second, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well, wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you scroll through the news this morning? How many of those articles that you skim covered a topic related to climate change? I guess it was probably a few. It seems. Every couple of weeks there's a new story dominating the headlines about forest fires, hurricanes, floods, heatwaves, and more, both here in Canada and abroad. We are seeing firsthand the effects of climate change and As consumers, we are receiving information about it. Everywhere we look. Have you ever thought about how you are being communicated to? How is climate change presented? What wording was used? And why? And are their calls to action? How does it make you feel? think not only about news articles you read, but also about documentaries, podcasts, Hollywood movies, right down to your everyday life. Think about the newsletter you receive from your municipality. The assembly instruction on the last piece of furniture you purchase, or this section on your favorite clothing brand, website about their sustainable practice, communications surrounding climate change are pretty much everywhere and the need to be. In June of 2021, the Canadian government introduced the Canadian net zero emission Accountability Act, which puts into legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Different companies across the country are making their commitment, much like we did in 2022, when we committed to leading the way to a Smart Energy Future by becoming net zero by 2030. The push on to stop the damaging pollution emitted into the environment on a daily basis, namely caused by burning fossil fuels. Scientists are urging that this is crunch time. So if you haven't already, now is the time to hone in on how and what you are communicating to your customers. So here is today's big question. What role do communicators play in motivating change within their audiences to take action against climate change? Our guest today is Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re Climate, Canada's first climate communications and Engagement Center. This new organization launched in 2022 brings together Canada's leading climate communication academics and practitioners, and aims to help communicators create strategies that inspire the public to support climate action. Amber is one of Canada's top climate communication strategists and capacity builder who works with groups across the country bridging gaps between research and practice. She led the groundbreaking Alberta narrative project and supported much of the foundational work to pilot and build reclaim it. Amber, thank you for joining us today.
Amber Bennett 03:54
Thank you for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:56
Amber, maybe you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and Re Climate How did you get into climate communications? How did Re Climate come to be and what does it aim to achieve?
Amber Bennett 04:09
Okay, I'll try to hold all of those questions at once. Well, I am based in Calgary, Alberta, which may seem like an unlikely place for some for the executive director of a Canadian organization or Canadian center focused on climate communications and engagement at Carleton University. But that's where I live with my family. And what to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been circling around climate communications for a very, very long time. You know, the the mind has a funny way of making sense of things in retrospect, but I started with a Bachelor of Science and then I moved on to a public relations degree and then I worked with the mayor of Calgary on the one of the I forget which numbered cop, but it was a Copenhagen. And I think that was really the first time I began to think about what, what is climate change and had a certain kind of exposure to the, to the, you know what the challenge was and what not. And when I saw I kind of went on, and I did a master's degree. And it was when I had needed to choose a topic for my master's degree when there was the catastrophic flooding here in Calgary. And there is this, like, amazing paradox where the, you know, Calgary Stampede, which is the epitome, I would say, of the, you know, kind of old boys club. And when that happened, when the floods happened, their motto was come hell or high water come hell or high water, they were going to, you know, produce the show. And at the same time, one of the readings I was doing as a part of my master's program was also titled come hell or high water. And it was really about the science of climate change, and why it is making it so difficult. Why is it so difficult for humans to kind of wrap our heads around it. So fast forward, I completed a master's, and then did a series of really interesting projects. I did some work with a group out of the UK called Climate outreach, which is focused on climate communications and engagement as well. And then started working with a group of people here in Canada to set up a similar center or similar organization that would focus on supporting climate communicators, helping to kind of bring together the research that was happening, as well as the practice. And so that's really why Re Climate it is set up to do, we're really dedicated towards advancing the practice of climate communications and engagement through research, training, offering resources, pulling resources together, strategy, and developing strategy with other types of practitioners, as well as convening networks of both scholars, as well as those people who are kind of out there in the real world doing campaigning and advocacy work and trying to, you know, communicate with citizens and whatnot. So, that's kind of where we're at.
Dan Seguin 07:34
Now, Amber, it sounds like Re Climate, is a very diversified organization that brings together experts in social science, Public Affairs, and science. What kind of professionals work together in this environment? And what does it each bring to the table?
Amber Bennett 07:55
Love this question. So Re Climate brings together I think I've said it research and practice. And so you have those practitioners who may be doing public engagement campaigns, they may be working for utilities, they may be working in local governments or other kinds of government, they might also be working in advocacy organizations. And so they often don't have the time, or I would argue the luxury of going into, you know, latest academic journals, or even, you know, kind of other thought leaders who are publishing in the field. Why? Because they're busy, they're doing the work. And so, you know, that kind of takes a lot of time to kind of go in and look at the research, track it down, make sense of it? They're also, I would argue, very few who have the time to do an evaluation, like after they've done something, what did we learn from it? You know, What, did we make a difference? You know, what kind of impact are we having, and similarly, just getting together with other folks, right, and talking about it and sharing what they're learning. So that's kind of on the practitioner's side. And so, you know, when we say we bring or convene networks of people together, we're really trying to do that, you know, we're trying to provide resources, synthesize, you know, research, both, perhaps, you know, it's public polling, or maybe it's social science, you know, what's happening in in, that's relevant, but also bringing people together to share with each other and learn with each other. So that's kind of that practitioner side. And, you know, there's also, I would say, sometimes a culture where people feel like they're competing with each other, you know, certainly within the charitable sector. So kind of, I think, for those folks who are coming in, who are kind of in the field, having that support and someone who's doing In the work on their behalf to kind of make sense of synthesize, pull it in together like yours, your five tips here, the things you need to do. That's extremely helpful. And then on the flip side, I think for researchers, you know, they're, they're kind of passionate, there's a reason why they're there thinking or trying to understand, you know, how to better engage people, or what's the right framing, or what are the values or whatever it is, because they're passionate about it. So by being able to kind of bridge from the practitioner world into a more academic or into a research field, we're able to just give people real world challenges. It's like, here's why practitioners are actually struggling with, you're an expert in this, please talk to us about it, or please, you know, this is the kind of information that they need. So, you know, kind of the practitioners, I would say, Bring the complexity of the real world, right, that we're dealing with real people, resource constraints, you know, various kinds of issues and whatnot, whereas researchers bring the kind of precision of being able to look at something with a whole body of understanding behind them to be able to kind of see, well, here's what may be operating within this situation, here's what we know about it. And here are some other kinds of interventions or approaches that we might be able to take. I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Maybe the scientists part, I would say they bring the public trust. Right. So whenever we're polling, you know, consistently, scientists come up on top as having high levels of public trust on climate and energy transition. And so I think that they bring that kind of authenticity. And, you know, they're not there, they're often unpolitical, right? They're not seem to be benefiting, you know, personally from talking about it. So they're really effective messengers.
Dan Seguin 11:57
Wondering if you can share some insight into what the average Canadian's knowledge on climate change is? How much do they know about the main causes and the path forward?
Amber Bennett 12:14
Well, I would say that Canadians probably know a lot about climate change. But what we measure, it's a little bit different. So when, and I would encourage folks to take a look at some of the reports that we have published on ReClimate.ca The one that I'm, you know, I kind of go back to was published this year, or maybe it was last year. But within these reports, we basically look across 65, or more, either private or publicly available surveys, or public polls or whatnot, and we kind of do it a roll up of okay, so it's not just one survey that has said, this is multiple surveys that are showing kind of trends and themes in in where the Canadian beliefs or attitudes or or mindsets are. So when you do that, and when we looked across, you know, 65, or so what you can see is, is that, even though you have the majority of Canadians that would say yes, climate change is real, and it is happening, almost half of them attribute both natural and manmade causes, you know, attribute the cause of climate change due to natural causes as well as as manmade. And so why is that important, is because when we get into the conversations around solutions, then without the kind of foundational understanding that burning fossil fuels creates pollution, which creates a heat trapping blanket, which is heating our planet, and causing all of these extreme weather events and natural disasters that we're seeing. Without that kind of clear understanding that burning fossil fuels is the cause of climate change. And when you get into the solutions, and what people actually have to do about it, the conversations a bit more, there's a lot of confusion, or there's a lot of room for confusion, which is kind of what we're seeing and I can talk a little bit more about that. So you know, I spend a lot of time in focus groups, and this kind of conversation comes up. So when we talk about solutions in the path forward, you talk about climate change, and you start to have discussions around what you are doing, you know, recycling will often come up, plastics will often come up. There's a whole kind of suite of things that people are doing, but very few people are able to name a particular policy or real intervention that you know, that will address some of the root causes. And we people on this podcast may not be like, Hey, why really. But you know, there are a lot of different people and for many climate change, even though they may be living within the impacts are the, you know, experiencing in their daily lives, they have many other kinds of concerns and priorities that are happening at the same time. So what I would say is that Canadians believe that climate change is happening, there is at least half that are uncertain, or would attribute it to both natural causes, and manmade causes. This kind of understanding of burning fossil fuels, the trapping blanket, you know, that's not well understood by many. And so they're kind of subsequently stopping burning fossil fuels, as a path forward isn't clear, as it could be, or, or should be at this point in time. And maybe the other thing I if you, if you'll let me, the other thing I would say is, is that, you know, Canadians consistently report, when you ask them very high levels of concern about climate change, right? Most people can see forest fires, you know, that's how we are making sense of what climate changes. It is through these kinds of experiences, either directly, or our experiences of seeing, you know, extreme weather and natural disasters. So people are expressing very high levels of concern. But if you ask, unprompted, what are you know, what are the issues that you're most concerned about? It often will address climate change as mentioned Much, much farther down on the list. Right. So, affordability and access to health care, cost of living, housing, there are many other issues that people are faced with and dealing with in their day to day lives.
Dan Seguin 17:18
Okay, see the term movable middle mentioned in reports and on the reclaimed site, what is the movable middle? And why is it so important?
Amber Bennett 17:34
Great question. And I feel compelled to say that I think that term movable metal is used differently by different people. I think within the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided. Or they're conflicted about an issue. So they could move either one way or the other, but they're not at the moment. oppositional? Right. So if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians, whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change. They're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity is built around me. I'm a climate activist, and I'm a climate advocate. And you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others. But for the most part, people are concerned, right in the middle. They have they, you know, when they ask, yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that because they may not be well informed, or not thinking about this, they have many competing priorities. You're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue. Right? Because on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels, I just don't want them in my house, or we need lots of, you know, solar, renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So people, when we talk About the movable metal, really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned. They want when they support action, but they're undecided, potentially about one particular aspect or issue of it. Or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict. Or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know, why an example? Or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now, as we see more and more kinds of organized misinformation and disinformation. Right. So as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, a lot of certainty, what are some of the kinds of key narratives that are coming to the surface where people are kind of undecided? One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment than, you know, driving a car, or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support. Or it may be that solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kinds of things that are very dominant are kind of recurring pieces of information. And when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply, as much as maybe you were, I are people who are listening to this. So when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions? They really don't know what to think. Right? So like a third of us sit within that category, right? If I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it. Because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation, I know that I shouldn't be, you know, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they believe climate change is real and not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided, or just not, you know, as informed because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis.
Dan Seguin 22:32
Now Amber, why is it important for the average communicator, like those in the energy sector, for example, to better understand the strategy behind climate change communications?
Amber Bennett 22:45
Yeah, um, I think because climate change is a super wicked problem, and is really complicated. And maybe me rambling on for the past 20 minutes might give folks a sense of the things that, you know, we were trying to think about and grapple with all at the same time. And so I would say that, in other cases, although arguably, I would argue that information, probably doesn't work it in on any issue. But what we do know, is just giving people information, they're not, you know, people can't reason their way into kind of behavior change. So, you know, we live within systems. You know, we live within communities where, you know, we're surrounded by friends and family, we see ourselves as kind of certain types of people. There are all of these kinds of social needs and emotional needs that humans bring to the table, that climate change communications, and I would argue, probably any good communications needs to attend to. So this sense of belonging, right, so I belong to a community. Other people like me think and act this way, or I expect other people like me to think and act this way. Being able to understand even what the problem is can kind of create shared understanding so that people who are making decisions aren't making decisions that don't consider you that kind of shared understanding peace. People need a sense of efficacy, control in their lives, they need some agency, they just don't need someone making all these decisions on their behalf without any involvement. You know, people want to be good people. And to be able to ask questions and to challenge things that are going to impact their lives without being dismissed as a climate denier or shamed or whatnot. And people trust others for different reasons, right. So scientists are highly tuned lasts. politicians aren't big corporations aren't, right. But the ones who are often leading this conversation in public are big corporations and politicians. So all of those are the things that we need to attend to when we think about, you know, climate communications, and because it's such a complicated problem, and extends to so many aspects of our life. And to be fair, there's a lot of organized opposition and strategies to create polarization to create misinformation. There's a lot happening all at the same time.
Dan Seguin 25:43
Okay, let me ask you this, what effect does it have to all be on the same page?
Amber Bennett 25:51
I often give the analogy of an orchestra, right, where we all have the same song sheet, but we're all playing different instruments. And part of that is, you know, there is a role for the government in setting regulation. And there's a role for activists and advocates to be, you know, opening up new possibilities, holding governments and corporations to account. But actually, we also need businesses to be building out the products and the services and the and the things that we'll be using in our lives. And you need all of these different actors operating all at the same time. And, you know, to live, I guess, within an ecosystem, so I'm very skeptical of how one message is the efficacy of one message, I think that really what is helpful is if people are exposed to and have the ability to make meaning out of climate change, and out of energy transition through many different parts of their lives, and they actually have many different avenues to talk about it and to create, you know, a shared understanding of what they want for their future, or where we're going.
Dan Seguin 27:23
Let's move to electrification, and renewable energy. Cool? These are important pieces of the world's response to climate change. For those in the energy sector who have a direct relationship with electricity consumers, is there a certain messaging that we should be sharing with our audiences?
Amber Bennett 27:47
Such a great question. I might change, I might have a different thought while I'm making a cup of tea, you know, in a couple of hours from now. But I think that there is a very, goes back to the question that we talked about with literacy. And also goes back to some of the things I mentioned around people needing to have a sense of control in their lives. Right. So what we know from the research is that people's motivation to do something as a whole has a lot less to do with their perception of risk than it does there because their perception of their ability to act, and that that action will make a difference. What people really, I would say, based on all the things that I look at and read and whatnot, want is a place to act that makes sense. And that is relevant to their lives. So I think for folks who work in electrification, work in renewable energy, a part of what we need right now is both to fill in all of the pixels around, like, where are we going? What is this going to look like in my daily life? What are the things that make sense for me to do right now? And how are the things that I'm doing making a difference within, you know, the broader community that I know and love and want to make sure it's safe and prosperous? And all of those things? So I think what we're, what we need, in part, are those people who are responsible for infrastructure, for services, for that kind of daily life to start filling in the pixels of what is this going to mean? Because people get a little stuck on, like, blind faith. We're just going to hand it over and other people make decisions. People want to have a conversation. They want to have a space where they can kind of create a shared understanding, right, like a public imagination of like, where are we going? And what's it going to be like when we get there? And what is it going to need in my daily life? And so I think that there's that part, like, what is this going to look like? And then I think the other part is, what are you asking me to do? And how is it gonna make a difference? For me and for my community, Canadians are very generous, right? They're willing to do stuff, even if it doesn't benefit them, if they really believe that it'll, you know, benefit the broader community or collective good, they'll step up. But I would argue that we haven't done a really good job of giving people tangible, practical, relevant things that do make a difference. Neither have we done a great job of filling out the vision of what this is gonna look like, right? It's kind of a little bit like a cliff at the moment, right? We're all going to transition to renewables. And we haven't filled in, what is that actually going to look like? Right? Am I going to have a gas station at the end of my street? I don't know. What is it going to look like? That's what I would say is storytelling, right? What's the story of what this is? How is this going to happen? And what it will look like when we get there.
Dan Seguin 31:27
Okay, Amber. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Hydro Ottawa has committed to being net zero by 2030. Does this kind of messaging resonate with the general public? Are there best practices in how to communicate this type of message in order to influence and maybe even promote change in our community?
Amber Bennett 31:51
Well, I would say if we kind of got back to, you know, when we think about Canadians, right, so I think that you've got a little section of folks who sit on one end, who net zero by 2030 makes a lot of sense. They understand what Net Zero is, they understand why you've chosen 2030. They understand what getting to net zero, you know, even means, however, it's likely that a section of those people are kind of skeptical. Why? Because they've been hearing a lot of targets, and not a lot of action, you know, for many, many decades. And then, so that's, you know, that one group, right, we start to see kind of dropping, you know, belief that, you know, it's possible, or that's going to happen. And then you have that whole other group in the middle that I was talking about, where net zero means absolutely nothing. The word the language, net zero means, you know, I'm being a little bit brutal, but it's true, right, where net zero doesn't really mean a whole lot. And, and neither does 2030, or the importance of it. And I think, you know, I sitting in a boardroom or a meeting room the other day, and we're talking about targets, and it really struck me when the person on the other side said, we know that this is ambitious, and we know that it's impossible, but we have to say it, because it's actually what science requires of us. These are not a political target, it's actually a scientific target, that we need to reduce emissions by this amount by this period in time, even if we'll never get there. That's what science requires of us. So I think all that to say, targets, I think are very helpful for administrators, for policy makers, for business leaders, etc. To help, you know, turn the ship, and to help start getting the kind of resourcing and planning and whatnot in place. But for the general public, what they actually want is what we were just talking about, tell me where we're going and tell me what I have to do. And tell me why it makes a difference.
Dan Seguin 34:17
Cool, Amber. You were a co-author on an incredibly helpful document entitled, climate messaging that works, talking about energy transition and climate change in Canada, which outlines the concept of message triangle. For me, it was a simple takeaway that could be immediately implemented into any communications surrounding climate change. Could you share the coles note of the message triangle with our listeners?
Amber Bennett 34:50
I can, and I would love to. And I suspect that, you know, there'll be parts of what I'm about to say that begin to resonate with some of the past things that I've said or are connected to. So really in a triangle, the underlying principle is that we're trying to create a whole story or a whole narrative for people. And that has a lot to do with how human beings and how we have evolved and how we make sense of the world, we make sense of the world through narrative and through stories. And so when we just give people one piece of something, it doesn't satisfy the way that we have been trained. Since, you know, the, since the beginning to kind of make sense of the world. So what we want to do is we want to give people a challenge that has to either be overcome, or that we're at risk of losing something. So there's a challenge, there's a choice that we have right now that we need to make. And then there's an opportunity. And if we can hit each piece of that triangle, what we're doing is we're creating a whole story for people, which allows them to make sense of why are you taking my time? And why should I listen to you? So you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change. But also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing, that are related to climate change within our communities? You know, I was listening to a CBC program the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland, that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of Hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would, right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal individual problem. But if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like doing it all on their own. Similarly, a choice, right, as communicators, if we're talking specifically to communicators, we often leave out the choice at the moment, what is the call to action? What are you actually trying? What are you asking someone to do? Is it voted a certain way? Is it a conversation? If it takes a particular action, we need something, there's some sort of choice, and there's some sort of action that has to create tension within this story, right? All good stories have a choice that has to be made by the main, you know, character, and then the opportunity. And I think, you know, part of what I've been talking about around, where are we going? What's it going to look like when we get there is that opportunity. So if we're talking about the challenge, is, you know, we're seeing increasing extreme weather, that's because of burning fossil fuels and pollution, the trapping blanket, our choice right now is we need to electrify and that means building infrastructure, the opportunity that we have is at a community scale, both for you know, ourselves and and for others. This kind of, you know, whatever might be the relevance of it right, we'll have a more dependable electricity supply. You know, if we're all in EVs, and we have backup, you know, batteries in our cars, when the power goes out, you know, you've got a little mini generator that you can draw on that gives you electricity, you know, through the storm or something, whatever it might look like. But that's the point is that we're trying to create a full picture for people. We want to talk about, what's the challenge? What's the choice? And what's the opportunity on the other side?
Dan Seguin 39:22
Now, climate change has been a hot topic for oh, God, at least 20 years now. Are there any challenges with keeping an audience engaged and interested for so long?
Amber Bennett 39:36
Yeah, there's actually a woman out of the States who wrote an article. Her name is Suzanne Moser. And it's something I'm going to botch the title but it's something like, you know, Climate Communications 20 Years Later: What Have We Really Learned? And I think that in fairness, I think we've learned a lot, right? I think most people understand that it's more complicated than just giving people a brochure at this point. And I think that in 20 years, we've done a much better job of crystallizing, what is it that we need to do? However, there's also been 20 years of misinformation, 20 years of broken plans and not, you know, unachieved targets etc. And I was chatting with a woman the other day and, and she's like, because I kind of feel like forest fires and floods and hurricanes are doing the job that we used to do, you know, which is creating alarm and concern and demonstrating like, this is real. And it's a big problem. So I think in 20 years, we've had 20 years more of all of that. But we haven't, you know, but, but rather, I would say the job now in this moment, is the pathway, right? And giving people that kind of those choices, that control, and that sense of agency, that they can do something about it. And we need to get on with the action part, right. So we can't leave people in just concern. Because our minds can only hold so much anxiety and concern at one time, amongst all of the other things that we're concerned and anxious about, you know, climate change is just, you know, even more dreadful, particularly, I think, for younger people. So we can't, you know, people can only stay there for so long before they start to kind of check out because, as I go back, you know, I kind of mentioned it in the beginning. It's like our sense of whether or not we or our sense of motivation, or motivation to act has a lot more to do with our sense of being able to do something about it, rather than the risk that it that it proposes or that it is, so yeah. So, I would say the challenges of keeping people interested or if you can't give them something to do, then, you know, at a certain point, you kind of have to just check out of the conversation until, you know, you get clear about what are you asking me, and I think that this kind of anxiety is a real problem. And so the road for them, this moment really requires us to get much more clear about where we're going in the pathway forward.
Dan Seguin 42:52
Okay, Amber, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Amber Bennett 43:00
Ready to go? Okay,
Dan Seguin 43:03
What are you reading right now?
Amber Bennett 43:05
Wine Witch on Fire by Natalie Maclean, I think.
Dan Seguin 43:09
Okay, now, what would you name your boat? If you had one, maybe you do. Maybe you don't.
Amber Bennett 43:17
I don't have one. And it would be a miracle if I ever have one. So I'm going to name it a Miracle.
Dan Seguin 43:24
Who is someone that you truly admire?
Amber Bennett 43:28
This is kind of really out of left field, but I'm gonna go with it. So during COVID, there was a woman named Trinny Woodall who used to do What Not To Wear on the BBC. It was like one of the original kinds of reality programs, like one of those. And, you know, I'd love to be more philosophical than this. But I admire her because her whole... a) she works so hard, but also she just wants to make women of a certain age or any woman just feel good. And I really just admire someone whose life and business and purpose is really just trying to make other people see the goodness in themselves or to feel better about themselves. So she's, and she's also for any one who's interested. I mean, a social media magician, like she's, she's magic in terms of what she did. She started during COVID and kind of as a comms person, like, Yeah, amazing. Kind of how she has set herself up as an influencer.
Dan Seguin 44:42
Okay, Amber, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Amber Bennett 44:51
Magic? Yeah, this is hard. Okay, so just bear with me. Great start! This is not as rapid as you probably want. I'm moving houses. I bought a house. And there were two moments in like, one was do I put an offer in? Or do we put an offer in? And then there was another moment, kind of later on. And in both cases, I was about to say, I was going to pull back and say no, you know, I'm not going to go forward with it. And I kid you not, in that moment, the wind picked up. So in one case, I was outside and the wind picked up and got very, very strong where I was standing. So the first time you know, you can kind of blow it off. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. That was weird. But it happened twice. It happened a second time. And then the second time where I was, you know, kind of stuck. And, you know, wanting to retreat and I got a little, you know, scared about, you know, kind of taking the leap. And in that second time, the same thing happened, where the winds picked up, and they got a little bit stronger around me. And then they calmed down afterwards. And not in a like, oh, I kind of feel like no, it's kind of little, you know, it was very dramatic. And so anyways, I move houses tomorrow, so I'm gonna just put that out to magic. Not quite sure. It doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Why? Why did we do it? But we're there now.
Dan Seguin 46:26
Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Amber Bennett 46:32
Yeah, I'm, like so many parents. And I would argue women in particular, the double bind of having to take care of kids as though I don't work. And work even though I don't have kids. And I think for a lot of parents that was the impossible situation and I don't feel that that's really gone away.
Dan Seguin 47:02
This next one I always enjoy. What have you been watching a lot more of on Netflix or TV lately? What's your favorite? In other words, you know, what's your favorite movie or TV show?
Amber Bennett 47:17
I love the Peaky Blinders. And I've gone back and I've watched certain episodes again, just because they're so delicious with the costumes and the characters and the whole thing. I'm, yeah, totally enthralled. Yeah, love it. Okay.Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now. Um, I think that if anyone were to see my email inbox, they'd be very surprised at, you know, I think communion policy was the king for so long. And I think finally, we're at the point where we're beginning to understand that the public has to be on board, the public actually needs to have informed consent about so many of these choices. And we need a social mandate to ensure that climate action is the third rail, right? You know, if you're going to be a leader in this country, or business operating in this country, then you need to be a climate leader, and you need to be a climate business, it has to be fundamental to all of the decisions that you make, and how you and how you operate. Because science doesn't give us any other choice at this moment. So that's, so I think, the kind of realization that we can have all the technology and all the policy that we want, but if people aren't on board, then it's never going to happen. And so I get to work with very interesting people, unexpected from all walks of life, and you know, different sectors who are beginning to understand that, really, this is something we're going to work on until all of us and those beyond. For many generations, yeah.
Dan Seguin 49:12
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, Amber, or your organization, how can they connect?
Amber Bennett 49:18
Yeah, well, easiest is to go to our website, so Re.Climate, so that's reclimate.ca. And folks can sign up there if they want to, you know, make sure that they get more information on events, and we do lots of, you know, webinars and talks and we release reports and, and whatnot. So that's a great thing to do. And I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So Amber Bennett, and I also share lots of things there. that I find interesting.
Dan Seguin 49:59
Well, Amber. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Amber Bennett 50:08
Yeah. Great questions. Great chat. And thank you.
Dan Seguin 50:14
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Summer rewind: As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply also rises. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future. Related links
● Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/
● Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger
● IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/
● Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innov ation-Fund/Overview
● Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-8b612114/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
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Transcript:
Trevir Freeman: Everyone, well, it's officially summer. And it's been about four months since I took over the mic as the host of the think energy podcast, which is kind of hard to believe. It's been really fun having great conversations with great people in the energy sector. I now mostly know my way around the recording equipments and the software, and really feel like we're kind of just getting started and looking forward to where we go from here. That said, the think energy team is taking a break to recharge over the next few months, but also to plan our content for the fall. So, stay tuned for some great episodes in the fall. Not to worry though, we still have our summer rewind to keep you engaged. This is where we pick out some of the great past episodes that we've done and repost them. So, whether you're lucky enough to be sitting on a dock or going on a road trip, or if you're just keeping up with your commute through the summer, it's a great time to revisit our past content. You will hear past episodes from my predecessor and the host chair Dan second, as well as a couple of mine from the past few months. And you're welcome to check out your own favorite past episodes as well wherever you get your podcasts. We hope you have an amazing summer and we'll be back with new content in September. And until then, happy listening.
Daniel Seguin: This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role?
_____________________________________________
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment.
Daniel Seguin:
At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system?
Lesley Gallinger:
The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes.
Daniel Seguin:
Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy?
Lesley Gallinger:
As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead.
Daniel Seguin:
Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities.
Daniel Seguin:
Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario,
Lesley Gallinger:
The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time, Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid? Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions.
Daniel Seguin:
Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis?
Lesley Gallinger:
So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario.
Daniel Seguin:
Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful
Daniel Seguin:
Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation. From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September.
Daniel Seguin:
Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.
Daniel Seguin:
Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Lesley Gallinger:
I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.
Daniel Seguin:
Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.
Daniel Seguin:
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.
Daniel Seguin:
Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Lesley Gallinger:
Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.
Daniel Seguin:
Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Lesley Gallinger:
I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO.
Daniel Seguin: Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Electricity Canada’s President and CEO, Francis Bradley, joins thinkenergy in episode 140. Hear about the shift to sustainable electricity, including the difficulties navigating provincial and federal policies, climate change directives, and funding gaps. Plus how Electricity Canada evolved from a technical exchange club into a national advocate for sustainable energy. From challenges to leading the charge, learn how governments and private sectors are working towards a clean, efficient electricity system. Related links: Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-3617802a/ Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/ The state of the Canadian electricity industry 2024 Getting to Yes report: https://www.electricity.ca/advocacy/getting-to-yes-the-state-of-the-canadian-electricity-industry-2024/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Trevor Freeman 00:07 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. On the show before we have talked about how energy is primarily a provincial jurisdiction in Canada, so that means that provinces and provincial governments set energy policy provincial grids are structured both in a regulatory sense as well as a physical infrastructure sense. at the provincial level, we've gone into some detail about Ontario's grid and talked about how it's kind of a distributed grid meeting most electricity customers in Ontario get their electricity from a local distribution company. Not every province is the same in any of those senses. Some are a little bit more vertically integrated, meaning there are you know, maybe a single entity that gets you all the way from generation to distribution. There's different regulatory frameworks. The point is there's a lot of diversity across the country. Now, as much as that is a provincial jurisdiction, there is a role for the federal government to play here at that national level. There are some national policy directions that are important and that impacts energy policy. Climate change is a great example. So the federal government has jurisdiction to set targets and come up with strategies to address climate change for the country. Things that the federal government is doing currently is enacting a clean electricity standard with the goals of decarbonizing electricity generation in the country, so making sure that we stop using fossil fuels to generate electricity on a large scale. The federal government also supports decarbonisation efforts for buildings and for transportation, and they put money into those things. And those efforts impact electricity grids and impact markets. The federal government also has a role to play when it comes to major projects and providing approvals for those projects to move forward. And that includes energy projects. So new generation or new transmission, you know, things that are using land or moving across land, there's a role for the federal government to play there. So enter electricity Canada, the national voice for electricity utilities in Canada. Now, we've talked before about the sort of provincial equivalent that advocates on behalf of energy utilities. This is the national voice here for electricity, utilities, electricity, Canada has been around for over 130 years now. And their focus, at least in the last while has been on federal advocacy. I'm not going to tell you too much about electricity, Canada, because my guest today is going to talk a little bit about that. But just as a primer. So they have recently published their 2024 state of the industry report, which looks at the need to accelerate some of these major initiatives in the electricity sector to keep up with the energy transition that, as we've talked about many times is already underway. It's already happening. And we are just trying to keep up really. So my guest today is actually making his second appearance on the podcast as Francis Bradley, who is the president and CEO of electricity Canada, and has held a number of different roles within electricity Canada as well prior to becoming the president CEO. He also has a number of key positions on national committees and working groups, which are focused on infrastructure, energy and electricity and other related topics. And most interestingly, he also hosts his own podcast, the flux capacitor, which I highly recommend you check out. Francis, welcome back to the show. Francis Bradley 04:01 Delighted to be here. Thanks for the invitation, Trevor. Trevor Freeman 04:03 So I know you've kind of given us the background before but electricity Canada has been around for over 130 years now, which is older than our kind of modern, interconnected grid, at least here in Canada. Can you just remind us of the role and the mandate that your organization plays in the electricity sector? Francis Bradley 04:20 Sure. Absolutely. In fact, somewhere we have a photograph of like the first meeting of what at the time was the Canadian electrical Association at Niagara Falls in 1891. Trevor Freeman 04:32 Wow. Francis Bradley 04:32 But yeah, you know, where, where we're at today. So basically, you know, if you turn a light switch on pretty much anywhere in Canada, any province, any territory, everything it took to generate, transmit and distribute the electricity to turn that light on was probably done by by one of one of our 42 members. They're in every single province, every single territory to use the official the official definition you know, Our mandate is to be the national voice for sustainable electricity for our members and the customers they serve. We do this through advocacy through sharing best practices, and, and education of stakeholders and the government. But yeah, our our members are basically the, you know, the 40 odd, biggest companies that generate transmit distributed coast to coast to coast. Trevor Freeman 05:22 And has that mandate changed over the course of the 130 years, or is it pretty consistent? Francis Bradley 05:27 No, it's It's actually that's that's an interesting question. It has changed a lot. And it's changed over the time since I've been at the association even and then aimless changed, that this is the third name. I'm on since since I joined the organization. Yeah, when it was first established. As you say, there was a letter A long time ago, 133 years, it was basically a little club for these people that were in this nascent industry who, who would, you know, swap stories about, about what they're doing and how it's working. And even at the time, there was still, you know, debates about should we be doing AC or DC and, you know, the whole, the whole, you know, battle between, between Westinghouse and, and, and, and the other folks, but so, you know, it was initially a technical information exchange organization, when I joined the organization, it was still very much technically focused, would do a big annual conference, we actually had a technical research division, and we do a couple of million dollars of research a year, back then. We then evolved, we, we evolved from the Canadian electrical association to the Canadian electricity Association. And our mandate began to shift away from Duke First off, where we stopped doing technical research and moved away from technical detailed technical information exchange, and increasingly our mandate began to focus on advocacy and and what the what the industry needs and what they what the members require, from an advocacy standpoint. And then in the 1990s, mid 1990s, we moved up into Ottawa because prior to that we'd been in Montreal, we've been in Montreal since the 1930s. Before that, we were in Toronto. So in the 90s, given that the focus had shifted pretty significantly to advocacy, and the principal government that we were seeking to advocate with was the federal government, the office moved up to Ottawa. And then three years ago, the name of the organization was changed from the Canadian electricity Association, to simply electricity, Canada. Trevor Freeman 07:42 So that's that switch from technical to the more advocacy and policy work. It's really interesting and actually kind of ties into this. This next question, I want to ask you, we've talked on the show before about, you know, how the Ontario electricity sector is structured. And it's complex, to say the least, but that's one of many in Canada, different provinces have different regulatory structures. Energy Policy is primarily provincial jurisdiction. But as you mentioned, the federal government has a say in that as well, especially when it comes to climate change recently. So I'm curious, how do you navigate all those differences and kind of speak with a common voice when you're dealing with so many different regulatory bodies? So many different governmental bodies? What's How do you find that common voice? Francis Bradley 08:31 Yeah, well, and you know, that that is that is that the fundamental challenge of, frankly, any organization in Canada that's attempting to, to operate at a national level, in a in a sort of domain that's principally principally provincial, but it's kind of even more so with electricity because of the differences in different jurisdictions. And, you know, you've noted that Ontario is complex in terms of the industry structure, it was more complex. When I when I first started in the sector, there were 300 and more than 350 local distribution companies, you know, so there's been a little bit of consolidation, Trevor Freeman 09:11 we have a paltry 60 something now. Francis Bradley 09:13 Yeah, well, that's right. Yeah, we're down into only double digits. But at the same time, you know, we also saw, you know, municipal municipal amalgamations that's taken place that have driven some of that, but, you know, so we've seen an evolution here in Ontario. But, you know, there are no two jurisdictions in this country that are the same. So you know, there isn't a like an electricity system in Canada, each province and territory is different, different types of ownership. You know, in some, it's like a private, privately run companies and in other jurisdictions, it's a Crown Corporation. In some like Ontario, it's a hybrid of a mix of different types of ownership. But, you know, there's there are there are crowns, there are municipally owned there are privately owned companies as part of the value chain. And so you know, It results in a pretty disparate system, both in terms of how the sector is structured, and also how its regulated. Because the regulations are different in each and every one of those jurisdictions. And so, you know, this presents us with a huge problem, frankly, and we see it now, in particular, with respect to all of the politics around climate change, because electricity is a provincial responsibility, but we have one level of government, the federal government, providing direction in this space. And then we have another level of government, that the provincial level, you know, reacting to what those national objectives are, we've got multiple regulators across the country offering their own interpretations on what can and cannot be done in this space. And it proves to be a problem, you know, with respect to the challenge to build the infrastructure that's going to be needed to meet our, our, our aspirations, our future aspirations, this complexity makes it very difficult to get things moving and get things done. And, you know, in addition to that, honestly, in the past year, you know, if you look at the relationship between federal government, the federal government and provincial governments, in some parts of this country, it's starting to smell and feel like just raw geopolitics, right. You know, all sides, frankly, on some of these files have have demonstrated the sort of dogmatic posturing that you'd expect between countries, not necessarily between provinces, and a central government and in a confederation. But, you know, the thing is, and I keep going back to this, if you sort of strip out the posturing that we see, the fact is, we actually agree on much more than than the areas where we disagree. And here's an example. You know, if you look at the, the,the provincial opposition in a number of provinces to the Government of Canada's clean electricity regulations, you would think that, you know, we're on completely different pages here. But, you know, if you ignore some of the, you know, saber rattling, and the point scoring, you actually can see that there is general agreement provincially. And federally, that electrification is going to be, you know, the long term solution to our climate crisis. In fact, the only thing that's in dispute is sort of the deadline and the methods that we're getting there. So, you know, there, there are expressions in some provincial capitals, about the clean electricity regulations as the method and you know, and dispute as to whether or not it should be 2035, or a different time frame, but everybody is on the same page of, you know, an aspiration to have a non omitting sort of a clean system throughout the economy by 2050. And so, you know, that's the starting point that we work from, is that, oh, yes, there are certainly disparate views on some of the methods and some of the policies, but objectively, we are all attempting to head essentially in the same direction. We're all heading towards, like this net zero future. It's just a question of, how are we going to get there and, and with the time you're going to be, Trevor Freeman 13:18 it's interesting to hear you say that, because that's, you know, a couple episodes back, I talked to David Caletto, from abacus, and he was talking about just the general populations opinion on things, and it mirrors that exactly. So it's not just our sort of various jurisdictions and levels of government that kind of agree, where we need to get to, they just don't know how we're gonna get there. They don't agree and how we're gonna get there. Francis Bradley 13:40 Yep. Trevor Freeman 13:41 Your average Canadian also agrees with that. Canadians feel that a an electrified energy sector energy system is better than a fossil fuel one. Francis Bradley 13:50 Yep. Trevor Freeman 13:51 We just don't agree on how we're going to get there. So yeah, that's great. Great to hear. And that leaves you guys to sort of thread that needle and find the common points and amplify that I imagine. Francis Bradley 14:00 Absolutely. And, you know, and, and attempt to come up with solutions. You know, given that our principal role is, is is in advocacy, you know, that that means that we're in the public policy, loop solutions business, and trying to attempt to find ways to to, as you say, thread that thread that needle, but also, you know, figure out ways that that we can make sure that we have policies that are supportive of that future that, you know, as you said, even even the polling work that the David Caletto discussed with you. They agree that that's the destination as well. So, like, what's one of the public policy specific initiatives apart from the overall objective that we should be seeking to, you know, seeking to pursue? Trevor Freeman 14:51 So if I could pick on one of those specific issues, you know, keeping on this theme of regional differences and regional challenges, we have different relationships with the fossil fuel industry in Canada. And that includes both our electricity generation, some of our provinces have predominantly carbon free generation and some don't. And in terms of our economy, so I mean, West fossil fuel is weaved into the economy and a pretty integrated way. How can we navigate this move to cleaner electricity, collectively as a country, knowing that different areas of the country have to do different things to get there, and it's going to impact them in different ways? Francis Bradley 15:31 Yeah, and it isn't surprising that different parts of the country have a different approach to this, and they're coming from a different starting point. You know, it's kind of the luck of the draw, when, you know, when, when the geography prior to, you know, it prior to prior to anything like this, it was all determined by geography, if you happen to be in a jurisdiction today, that has a lot of water and a lot of different elevations so that the water is falling, you know, you're starting it certainly in a in a in a better place. That, you know, that the challenge overall is to is to really try and figure out how we we make this work across the country? You know, you're you're absolutely right, there are some parts of this country that have historically been very reliant on fossil fuels for the production of electricity. Why? Well, because they didn't have any falling water, or they're relatively flat. And so you know, that that was the certainly the case. And it continues to be the case and the challenge for some jurisdictions, so, you know, take the example of the draft clean electricity regulations that, you know, we've been, we've been talking about, and we're spending a lot of time focused on they, they hit different jurisdictions very differently, this objective to try and reach a netzero grid by 2035 is not a huge stretch, if you happen to be, you know, in in, in Quebec, or in British Columbia, or in Manitoba, it's a lift, but it's not a huge lift. You know, however, if you're, if you're elsewhere, it, it can be quite challenging. So the problem that we have there is, but you know, when the government of Canada began putting together their work on the clean electricity regulations, they use modeling that looked at the national average, and, you know, nationally, they were 84%, non emitting as a country. That's great. Trevor Freeman 17:31 Right. Francis Bradley 17:32 But, you know, they really should have taken a hard look at what the differences were between different jurisdictions in the country. And they should have done their modeling that was much more local. You know, Canada is a big, diverse country. And, you know, you hinted at that. So, you know, exactly nowhere in Canada is average. Right, and so we shouldn't be modeling nowhere. Because then that simply doesn't work. You know, and, and the, the simple illustration, I will often say is, if you've got two lobsters, and one of them is in the freezer, and the other one is in the pod on your stove, on average, the temperature is pretty good for the lobsters. But it isn't for either of them, right? Yeah. So, you know, listen, why does this matter? Well, if we get the modeling wrong, and if we don't understand the differences between the different regions of the country, we're going to be making decisions on how to allocate because, you know, we talk about 2050, and what is Net Zero 2050 Looks like, looks like it's going to be, you know, trillions of dollars worth of investments are going to be required. And if they're leaning on models that are not right, that becomes problematic. It's a huge bet that we're making, you know, if the models we base our decision making on and where we're going to be putting our investments aren't accurate. If the regulations are wrong, you know, these clean electricity regulations, because they didn't take into consideration the regional differences. Compliance is going to be expensive. It could in some jurisdictions, you know, make blackouts or brownouts more common with bigger impacts, and it might have disproportionately more significant impact on on the rates in most jurisdictions. So, you know, the reality is, it's four provinces in, in in Canada, that have a starting point with respect to decarbonisation, that's substantially lower than then the rest of the country. They've got much more significant lift if you happen to be in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. That's just the reality. So you know, we need to move forward with the with decarbonisation, but we need to be realistic that moving us from what we have today and 84% carbon free system to 100% is going to be far far more complicated than it's assumed. Again, looking at it on a national average, it seems like only a small numbers, you know, we're at 84%. It's not a stretch to 100. Except if you're in a jurisdiction where it's, you know, 10%. Yeah, then it's a problem. Trevor Freeman 20:09 Okay, so 11 years, we got our work cut out for us. And we'll kind of see how we move forward. A big part of what we're going to talk about today is electricity, Canada's recent report that you've called Getting to Yes. The 2024 state of the Canadian electricity industry. So in the very first lines of the report, you talk about how there's this culture of No. Which is creating these major obstacles to progress. The report highlights that there have been all these funding pledges from the federal government. But projects are not getting off the ground. They're hitting barriers. Can you elaborate on what some of those barriers are? Francis Bradley 20:48 Sure, absolutely. Happy to. This is, this is something that we've been very focused on since we released a report earlier this year, is is an initiative we do each year, we try and kind of sum up what we see as the most significant challenge for the sector. And, yeah, the challenge for this sector is we need to, we need to figure out how to how to get to yes. This year, earlier this year, we saw the release of RBC, the RBC climate action Institute report that charted this massive growth for electricity, particularly with the rise of electric vehicles, and home heating. But the reports word of the year for the electricity sector is moratorium that because that was, you know, such a significant event, in the past year 2023 was a difficult year, frankly, you know, we've seen some projects that were halted temporarily like that six month moratorium, the pause on renewables in Alberta, we saw some projects, you know, like the Atlantic loop in the Maritimes, that were halted in indefinitely. And, you know, what's moving forward now is, is a piece of what would have been the Atlantic loop, but the Atlantic loop just just hasn't moved forward. So, you know, there, there is a very significant challenge, right now, with respect to being able to ensure that we have the policy frameworks in place. So that we can can get beyond these challenges with respect to moving through the regulatory frameworks. And at the same time, we need to make sure that we get the financing and the financials in place. I mentioned that RBC report, the title of the report, this year was double or treble, they estimate that we should be investing to be able to meet our aspirations, we should be investing at a rate of about $60 billion a year, in clean energy on an annual basis, were investing at a rate of barely 20 billion a year. So we need to more than double, almost triple the investment that we're putting in place to be able to meet those those targets. It's interesting, it's very consistent with the recent plan that Hydro Quebec came up with, to meet its 2035 objectives, it's estimating that it's going to close, you know, close to triple its capital investment to be able to to meet those. So we're well below what needs to be invested. And part of the problem is, is this, you know, we had a culture of, of no, you know, we we kind of have the technology to be able to do this. And we have, you know, the the financing, there are people who were are willing to invest in this space, because this is a good space to invest in. We have, you know, commitments and agreements in terms of what the overall target is that just that we seem to have set ourselves up with, you know, overall regulatory frameworks, that that slow things down. And by the same token, you know, we're waiting on final details for, you know, some of the financial incentives the Government of Canada has promised, like the investment tax credits, we're still waiting for the final details on that. And, and this is stuff that was promised almost two years ago. Trevor Freeman 24:12 Yeah. And I mean, these projects are not quick projects, they're not short projects, they take a long time to get off the ground. So every absolutely moment that's lost as an impact. There's a lot to pick apart and what you just said, and I there's a few things I want to pull on that maybe to start with, is anybody getting it right, right now in Canada? That's like a Canada just specifically, is this going well, anywhere in terms of getting projects up and running and off the ground? Francis Bradley 24:36 Well, our our focus as it associations is at the national level. And so at the national level, no, we're not getting it. Right. You know, there's a number of things that we need to do to be able to improve this and some things that we've been, we've been asking for so you know, like in terms of some some concrete steps at a national level. We need to coordinate federal impact assessments and project permitting through a central federal office. Again, this is something that that has been proposed, but isn't there. Second, we need to build capacity of regulators to deliver on our netzero goals and their decisions. They need to do prompt to so promptly they need to do it effectively. And third, you know, there was a one project, one assessment framework that the federal government promised in budget 2023. And then it promised that again, in budget 2024, that would be great to see that coming forward, like in this year's Federal Budget, it was teased, that, you know, many of the things that we would like to see are going to be addressed. But, you know, how long is it going to take? And, you know, are we actually going to be able to, to see some of those things implemented and implemented in a timely manner are open questions. And I've been I've been in front of parliamentary committees trying to get some of the move forward, some of the budget implementation details like the investment tax credits, move forward, but they we don't have all of the investment tax credit details yet in front of us much less moving them forward. And, and the clock is ticking, you know, that we keep getting closer and closer to to our targets, and we haven't made it any easier to get projects built. Trevor Freeman 26:32 You mentioned regulatory hurdles as one of those obstacles. What are you talking about when it comes to regulatory hurdles? I mean, like you said, you kind of focus at the national level, there's the provincial level. Talk us through what some of those hurdles are. Francis Bradley 26:44 Sure. Okay. Well, let me let me let me start with the the Impact Assessment Act, it's it's one of the biggest examples, frankly, of what up until now has been a culture of No, and this isn't a knock on the the individuals involved. It's just how the legislation is structured and how it works. Electricity, infrastructure projects are logistically complex, they require long lead times, they can take years to design to build construct. And that's even outside of the government approval process. At the current rate of regulatory approvals, new projects may take as much as 10 or more years to complete the, you know, the Federal provincial and territorial impact assessment processes, and obtain those relevant regulatory permits from various governments and regulators, you know, in Florida to have like, fully decarbonize, and, you know, double it grid capacity in a little over 25 years. This is going to be a challenge if it's going to take us a decade to get through these these processes. So when we were researching our state of the industry this year, we did a search of the open applications on the impact assessment act's website, what we found is that six projects, including electricity projects have been suspended indefinitely, because the information gathering effort to proceed with the federal Impact Assessment were enough to force a pause on the process. So it's possible that some proponents might reengage with the process, but what we found was that the paper exercise associated just the paper exercise with the impact assessment was enough of a deterrent to cancel or you know, otherwise viable projects, including, you know, in one case building a natural gas and hydrogen fueled electricity generating facilities and hydroelectric facilities. If just the time to go through the Paperchase is so long. This is problematic and something that needs to be addressed now, we're we have a revisions and amendments that have been introduced to the Impact Assessment Act as a result of the Supreme Court decision. I have appeared before parliamentary committee a couple of weeks ago, to speak specifically about that, and in hopes that we're actually going to see this move forward in a more of a timely fashion. But it was made clear by one of the other representatives that was giving evidence to the committee that that their expectation, this is from another province, their expectation is that they will once again be challenging this version of the Impact Assessment Act. So So even that creates further uncertainty. And just the uncertainty, the last thing that the business wants to be able to make generational investments is, you know, a stable, uncertain environment within which to operate. Trevor Freeman 29:41 So, on that topic of investment, you talk about the need for major investment in both transmission and distribution infrastructure. And just as a reminder for our listeners, that's the poles and the wires and the transformers. That's the real hardware of the electricity system. Those are already really big buckets. So help us understand I got a couple questions around this, you know, what kind of investment are we talking about? Is it building more of those poles and wires? Is there something else in there? What size of investment? I mean, you mentioned $60 billion and clean energy. And who should be making this investment? Who are we looking to hear to be making this investment? Francis Bradley 30:20 Yeah, I mean, that these are these, these are great questions in terms of what the investments are going to look like. And so, you know, we're looking at, as I said, earlier, doubling, doubling the grid, we're going to need at least two times more kilowatt hours when we get to the future. So you know, that's the level of investment that we need to be thinking about. There have been different organizations that have tried to kind of get a scope and scale of what that actually looks like, again, I mentioned the the RBC climate Institute. Last year, it had a study that came out, and I believe they, they paid this, I think it was $2 trillion, was the was the amount that they expected this to cost. Where's the money coming from? Well, you know, that's a really good question. And it's one that we've been engaging in for a number of years now. And, you know, not to be a little too much. I'll try. I'll try not to be like totally pedantic on this. But, you know, if you, if you consider, from a public policy standpoint, if if we believe that expanding the electricity system is necessary to decarbonize the Canadian economy, then essentially, what you're saying is that expanding the electricity system is a public good. from a, from an economic theory standpoint, if it's a public good, well, then it is something that should be borne by that taxpayer, not the ratepayer. Right. And so, you know, part of this discussion is, who needs to bear the costs for building out a clean non emitting electricity system, so that the rest of the economy can decarbonize? Should it be the electricity customer? Or are there parts of this, this core infrastructure that, that are regarded as a public good, and it's something that is paid for by the taxpayer, you know, and we see this in, in, in other sectors, other sectors as well, where, you know, certain things are perceived to be public good, and they're taxpayer supported. And we saw a bit of a recognition and a realization that this made sense to a degree in the federal government's budget in 2023, where, you know, they essentially pledged, one in every $8, in new spending was going to go to clean electricity projects through a variety of needs, you know, the investment tax credits, the candidate infrastructure bank, a number of funding mechanisms. So I mean, that those kinds of dollars from the federal government was a commitment to building infrastructure that that really is unheard of, at a national level since the Second World War. So you know, it really kind of moved clean energy and electrification into the category of well, I guess it's a public good, because, you know, there's a recognition that if the federal government wants to achieve these policy objectives, it needs to put some federal dollars in there. So, you know, that determination is, and whether it's a public good or not, as has been made in favor of the taxpayer versus the rate payer. Now, again, you know, you could easily say, Well, hang on a second, the rate payer, the taxpayer, the same person, except that it doesn't quite work the same way. We, you know, do do we want to attach to the customers bills, every single customer, that the cost of, you know, this, this expansion of our infrastructure or not, and, you know, electricity bills, are not something that, that, that fall, as taxes do disproportionately on those that are more wealthy. Right. And so, it's a little more fair. Now, you know, in terms of the specific investments, you know, I think, I think exactly how this is going to happen, and how it's going to roll out, those details are still being worked out by by some of our members, but I do want to highlight that, you know, the, the approach here, that we're seeing from the government, which we appreciate, is, you know, a one that is so far technology agnostic, which we think is the right way to go. So, you know, there isn't like a right way or a wrong way to generate electricity. So, you know, the future that we see is going to be an all of the above future, that will encompass wind and solar and nuclear and traditional hydro and, and, and hydrogen and carbon capture and storage. And more, not only does that give us, you know, the greatest flexibility and gives us the ability to to balance different types of generation of dispatchable versus non dispatchable. But it also gives us you know, overall, a far more flexible system. So, you know, That's the what the future is going to look like. So to, you know, to, to give you the short answer, it'll be all of the above, and it'll be probably $2 trillion. Trevor Freeman 35:08 What's the role of private equity and all of this? Francis Bradley 35:10 Oh, I mean, it's going to have, it's going to have to play a significant role, that there's no doubt about it. And in fact, that's one of the things that are BC has pointed their finger at when they when they identify the lack of investment right now, in this space, they note that the vast majority of it is public money. And the vast majority of that public money right now is federal public money. And so what they have said is they expect that there's going to have to be significantly more dollars coming from different levels of government, but also from private private investment and private investors as well. And this kind of a, you know, this is good news and bad news on that. I mean, the good news is, you know, their sense is that if we get the economics and the policy environment, right, that it won't be a problem, attracting capital. On the one hand, on the other hand, man, we're competing, you know, we're not an island here, and like, even now, where it's been taking us such a very long time to get the investment tax credit regime in place, and it's not in place yet. Whereas south of the border, the inflation Reduction Act, was developed and rolled out in short order. And what I'm concerned about is that, you know, people that want to invest in clean energy projects, I mean, I don't want to hear the sucking sound of those investment dollars flowing from Canada into the United States. But, you know, there has been more private investment in this space in the US than in Canada, because they've already established the regime that this is going to discuss, you know, production tax credits and, and, and other mechanisms. And we're still working out the details on ours. But yeah, you know, everything that we've heard is, there's a great deal of appetite, so long as we get things sorted out, as long as we get it, right. And that's why, by the way, one of the other things that's interesting for us as an association, is because our members are of, you know, a wide variety of types, a number of my members are investor owned companies. And so, you know, some Canadian companies that have become international players and international leaders, so, you know, Nova Scotia Power, it's now under a holding company called Amera, that is a major player, there's all of the Fortis companies, for US companies are our major players internationally. Afco is one of our members, and they're a big international player, you know, Transalta, again, you know, there's these are very significant players, capital power. So these are all all members of our organization. But it also gives us an ability to kind of get some insight into, into what the business looks like, for private investors as well. And, yeah, you know, what, what we're seeing and what we're hearing us, we need to get the policy, environment and the regulatory environment, right, because that right now is proving to be a barrier. And it's not just not just not not just us saying, you know, they'll see that reflected in other reports, including the RBC report where they talk about these the same sorts of things. And, you know, there's a recent reliability report by the North American Electric Reliability corporation that they've mentioned, as well, you know, one of the risks it sees over the longer term is, is a risk with respect to policy, and lack of policy and bow policy alignment. Trevor Freeman 38:40 I think I mean, you bring up the inflation Reduction Act, that highlights the value of policy in the setting of the stage to allow for the types of investment and the types of projects that we need going forward and the critical role that governments and policymakers can play there. And actually, my previous guests, and I talked quite a bit about policy. So that's timely. When we talk about these major investments, and you start talking about these major dollar values. You know, you're no stranger to this, I'm sure, electricity prices, the cost of electricity is a sensitive subject and has been for some time now across the country in many different jurisdictions. We often look at as a distribution company, Hydro Ottawa, we look at what we call our social licence. And that's not a term that's unique to the electricity sector, to essentially the the permission our customers give us to operate our business. As we look at these investments, as we look at the amount of dollars that have to be invested in our in our sector and our industry. We know that there's an affordability crisis in Canada right now, lots of people are struggling with cost of living. And those two things can seem at odds. So I want to get your thoughts on how do we continue to hold on to that social licence that we have and in fact grow it and build it because electricity as we know it and your utility as you know it are going to be Change. And how do we get people on board with that, while still making the level of investment that we're talking about here? Francis Bradley 40:06 Okay. All right. So, you know, I kind of touched on this a couple of times. But know, first and foremost, the energy transition, if you will, as I noted earlier, can't be paid exclusively by the ratepayers right? At be, you know, this is this is an overall objective that we have. And so, you know, the the infrastructure built is so large, that it needs to be certainly parts of it need to be paid through the tax system, and that that is progressive in a way that, that that rates are not progressive to begin with them, you know, but boy addressing vulnerable customers absolutely critical. You know, there's a variety of things that that could be tried, you know, in the United States that there's a Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, that it helps keep families safe and healthy through initiatives that assist families with energy costs this, I think they call it the LIHEAP provides federally funded assistance, to reduce the costs associated with home energy bills, energy crises, weatherization, and minor energy related home repairs. So you know, a similar initiative in Canada, could be there to assist the the most vulnerable, you know, as as, as you're aware that, you know, your your, your most vulnerable customers are the ones that have the least capacity to do things like weatherization. And so, you know, there's an example of a national program that we could look at as a model. You know, one of the other is let's, let's try not do dumb things at the same time from a public policy standpoint. And one of the areas that we've been lobbying and has been something called the excessive interest and financing expenses limitation, we call it Eifel. And now it is not going to impact your customers, but in some jurisdictions of this country, it is actually going to bite the customer. So this is a this is a change in financial rules that will limit the amount of interest paid interest expenses that can be deducted from taxable income for existing and new borrowings. Now, it sounds complex, but basically every dollar that is denied interest, it winds up getting passed on to the customers, and it increases the cost of capital. Now, it only affects a smaller number of jurisdictions in this country. But you know, in the US and the UK and other countries, they have exemptions for this role. So they don't apply to utilities, but it will apply to to utilities here in Canada. And so like, right now, the only exemption offered to this is for investments in rental housing, which, you know, we see, but you know, that that's a, that is a program that some of your listeners though, not the hydro Ottawa customers will will likely be aware of, but you know, there's also an important role for energy efficiency and conservation programs in this space, right? You know, energy equity programs, thermostat installations, insulation rebates, and direct install for low income customers, they all help people to reduce their energy costs consumption and, and help them reduce their energy bills. But you know, you're absolutely right, we need to make sure that we keep our eye on the most vulnerable as we go through this transition. And there are ways that we can do that. And there, there are examples like that program I talked about in the US, even at a national at a federal level, where there are programs that we could put in place. Trevor Freeman 43:39 Yeah, we do have I mean, there's, like you say, there's national programs that could be rolled out, we do have more local programs and Ontario, there are some assistance for low income customers that that we can support on the electricity bills. Federally, we've seen that investment in kind of on let's call it the supply side, helping helping homeowners access capital for low carbonization upgrades. So whether that's weatherization or putting heat pumps in, you know, the current program is oversubscribed and pause as a result, but seeing more of that and more directed to electricity specifically, I think would be would be great. When it comes to emerging technologies, so things like energy storage, smart grids, shaping the future of our sector, and let's break that apart a little bit. Let's talk about that at the macro level first. So kind of the grid level, and then we'll talk about it maybe on a behind the meter on the customer side of things. What do you see the role is for these new emerging technologies? Francis Bradley 44:40 Right. Well, you know, I mean, you know, as I said, as I said earlier, I think the the future is going to be an all of the above approach. And emerging technologies absolutely are going to be a critical part of this. But you know, we need to be realistic too. So you know, there's technologies that that may be able to replace fuel base generation but they're not yet commercially available, and they're dependent upon supply chains that are not yet at scale. So, you know, there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic, for example, about the role that small modular reactors are going to play or the battery storage will play in our electricity nicks out to 2050. But is it realistic to assume that they'll be deployed on a large scale between now and 2035? You know, we need to look at both the the medium term and the long term solutions. And so I think a lot of these technologies hold a great deal of promise, when talking about a 2050 timeframe, the 2035 timeframe is a little bit more more challenging, you know, one of the emerging technologies I mentioned in a minute ago, small modular reactors. And so, you know, we we see, Ontario Power Generation moving very aggressively hoping to complete their build by 2028. Get to grid by 2029. But, you know, if you happen to be Saskatchewan, and you're hoping that small modular reactors will be your solution over the longer term, you may not be in the 2035 timeframe. So, you know, that's, that's the challenge there. So I have a great deal of confidence in our ability to develop those technologies. And I think there's going to be some huge advantages as well, right? I look back, because I've been around the sector long enough to, you know, the early days of, you know, candu and the build out of the CANDU reactors, principally in Ontario, but although, you know, we have a plant operating in New Brunswick, and we did have one in Quebec for a time, but we built an ecosystem to support that as well. And, you know, I'm very bullish on our ability to develop these new technologies, hopefully develop them here in Canada, and develop the ecosystems and the supply chains here in Canada, not only to the benefit of sort of Canadians and Canadian customers, but I think, you know, much like can do this could be technology that we'd be able to, to market around the world. So small modular reactors, carbon capture, you know, this is there's so much work that's being done in this space, that, that, that I'm confident that they will be important technologies, and they will be important for our supply in the future. We just need to be realistic about when we can rely on them. Because you know, that the one thing that that we can never sacrifice, of course, is the reliability of the system that's customer will never accept that. Trevor Freeman 47:35 Yeah, of course, we're so intertwined. I mean, everybody that's listening knows this. This isn't any kind of insight, but we're so intertwined that yeah, we can't sacrifice that reliability. And it does, it touches on this idea that we have the technology that we need today, in the in the sort of near and medium term to get going on this stuff. And we're already going on this stuff. And then there are these nascent technologies that some of them may succeed, some of them may not, but we, we do need to invest in those. And we need to figure out which one of those is going to help us in that sort of medium to long term to get over that last 5, 10, 15%. Who knows what, but help us get there? What about on the sort of smaller scale behind the meter side of things when we talk about these emerging technologies? So distributed energy resources, you know, solar storage at the home level? Do you see that playing a big role in how we move forward here? Francis Bradley 48:32 Yeah. Like not tomorrow or next week? But you know, when you when you're looking over the longer term? Absolutely, I mean, I think, you know, we're already seeing changes in terms of how the customer interacts with the, with the supplier, in some jurisdictions, where, you know, you'll look at, you'll look at Hawaii, you'll look at Australia, where we see massive penetration of rooftop solar, for example. But what what that's given us is, it's given us the ability to get insights in terms of how that change in the relationship between the supplier and the customer that's going to evolve. Absolutely, and it is clearly something that, you know, as we've seen, in in, in those jurisdictions, that there is a, there's a significant amount of interest in, in in pursuing this. And there's a great deal of interest when the opportunity arises on the part of customers to be able to access technologies that allow them to feel like they they have more agency, sort of in the relationship and how they relate to electricity. So yeah, absolutely. When you when you go out to, you know, the longer term, distributed generation rooftop solar mine, I'm a, you know, an EV driver now, but like 10 years from now, you know, hopefully we will have figured out how to use vehicle to grid. You know, again, you know, when I talk about it you're going to need two to three times more kilowatt hours. I'm not saying we necessarily need two to three times more generation, because a lot of these technologies are going to give us the ability to have a more flexible, and more efficient electricity system. And a number of those are at the customer level. So you know, if you think of an electric vehicle, that is probably charging 2% of the time, or 4%, of the time, and the rest of the time when it's not being driven, it's plugged in. And that's a I've got an 82 kilowatt hour battery, that, you know, at some time in the future, me and all of my neighbors will have 82 kilowatt hour batteries. And so like how many megawatts on my block that that we could tap into, that can not only give the customer the ability to, as I say, have more agency in the relationship, but man the kind of flexibility we'd get for the distribution system operators, to be able to tap into that the greater resilience that we would have. So you know, that's just one example of a technology that that I think holds a huge amount of promise and that one aint pie in the sky, because I'm driving around with with a 82 kilowatt hour battery today. Trevor Freeman 51:11 Yeah. And I mean, the other side of that is also happening, the utilities are getting ready for that, and putting in the foundation and the building blocks that we need now, to do what you just described, to be able to look out there in our service territory and say, what are all the assets that I can use not just the incoming power from the grid, not just our switches and transformers? But what are all the assets that I can call on? And how do I incentivize this customer to do this behavior? You know, a couple episodes ago, we talked about what's our grid modernization roadmap, and it is designed very much around that, that capability. So I mean, that was a bit of a loaded question. I'm, that's kind of the answer I was expecting. For sure. But yeah, that's something that we're super keen on and super interested in. So Francis, as we kind of wrap up today, you know, maybe sum up some of the major steps that you want to see us take nationally in terms of policy to get out of this culture of No, as you call it. And into the you know, getting to yes, that towards the name of your report. Francis Bradley 52:15 Sure. Okay. So to get to that place, we would have that one project, one assessment framework that's been promised in two consecutive federal budgets, we'd have it and we'd have it up and running, we have significant changes to the Impact Assessment Act, we would have a clean electricity strategy. That's been one of the things that, that we've been asking of the federal government for the past several years, you know, we have similar strategies, we've got a national strategy for hydrogen, we've got a national strategy for minerals, we've got, you know, national strategies in a whole bunch of areas. We had a commitment last year by the federal government to have a national strategy for for clean electricity. So we're hoping to see that this year, we would engage indigenous communities at the start of a process and we'd work to split equally in favorable ways like Hydro One, and for desync have done in Ontario. And we would have collaboration at all levels of government, federal, provincial, indigenous, as well as regulators. That would be that would be my wish list. Trevor Freeman 53:11 That's, that's no small list. Well, Francis, it was really great talking to you today. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions. So if you're ready, I'll dive right into that Francis Bradley 53:22 A series of questions. Uh oh. Okay Trevor Freeman 53:24 We'll see how you do here. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Francis Bradley 53:30 Okay, well, it is a book that I have not read yet. I've just begun reading it because somebody pointed me in this direction. So I just got it. It's called the parrot and the igloo. And that the subtitle is climate and the science of denial. It is a it is a sofar, a very, very interesting book by the author David Lipski. So, I've just started reading this, but so far, it's proving to be a really great read. Trevor Freeman 54:03 If our listeners can hear me typing here, every once in a while, actually, you know, maybe half the time I hear about a book that I haven't come across yet. So I'm taking notes here. That's a good one. Francis Bradley 54:12 There you go. Yeah, the parent and the igloo. Trevor Freeman 54:15 So same question, but what's a movie or a show that you would recommend? Francis Bradley 54:19 Oh, okay. Well has nothing to do with energy or electricity or climate change. But But Mad Man. the I think the greatest the greatest series that they did ever been produced and television. Love it. Yeah. I wish I would have been there. They just seem to be such weird and creative meetings that they that they wind up in terms of figuring out the advertising back in the 1960s. Trevor Freeman 54:42 Yeah, totally. There's, there's no shows out there that you can go back to several times, if not indefinitely, and that's, that's certainly one of them Francis Bradley 54:49 that's one of the ones for me. Trevor Freeman 54:50 Yeah. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go, if you could offset the carbon Francis Bradley 54:59 I would I would, I would go to Ireland, I had been planning a trip to Ireland in April 2020. With with two of my kids. It never happened that we've never been so, you know, one one side of our family the roots go back there. But I have never been so it would absolutely be to Ireland. Trevor Freeman 55:22 Very cool. It is amazing how many times I hear that sort of there's those 2020 2021 trips that were planned that never happened. Yeah. are on the list for everybody. That's great. Who is someone that you admire? Francis Bradley 55:36 Niko Tesla. Yeah, Tesla, who is I think one of the real unsung heroes of the of the past, you know, people know all about, you know, Edison and Westinghouse. But very few people know about Tesla. And and I think I think he had significantly more patents than either either of those two guys. Everybody knows the car, but very few people know the man. Trevor Freeman 56:03 Okay, so last question, what is something that you are excited about when it comes to the energy sector and its future? Francis Bradley 56:10 Everything Trevor Freeman 56:11 Great The future is bright. I mean, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else right now. Specifically, you asked about the energy sector, but specifically electricity, I'm, I'm really looking forward to the future. You know, I talk a lot about, you know, we're going to have to build in the next 25, 26 years, a system that is twice as large as the system we had, you know, 120, 130 years ago. But if you look at how much a society has changed, because of electrification in the past century, society is well is going to change even more significantly, in the next 25 years. As we move forward. And we double, I'm really, you know, it's just like everything about what's going to happen in the sector. And, and, and our utilization and the new technologies that will, we'll have access to is, I find it endlessly fascinating to see what that future is going to look like I'd listened 15 years ago, nobody had iPhones and iPads, and all of these new technologies. And we used to have to watch TV shows when they were scheduled. And, and, you know, when I started working back in the day, if you if you wanted money, it would be cash, and you'd have to go to the bank. And if you didn't get there by Friday afternoon, you were stuck for the weekend. So yeah, you know, now I pay everything with my with my watch, right? Yeah, it's not even a tap. I just, I just use the watch. And so like, what's going to change in the next 25 years? It's going to be endlessly fascinating. It does feel like it, you know, and I've been in this industry a little while now. And it seems like the rate of change, specifically on climate on the energy transition on decarbonizing feels like it's picking up speed and getting momentum, and people are kind of getting behind it, not to say we've solved all the problems, but Right. That's the optimistic piece for me that I look at and say, Yes, stuff is happening. And this is a really cool spot to be I agree. Francis Bradley 58:16 Absolutely. Trevor Freeman 58:16 Well, Francis, this is a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights with us. And this was number two on the podcast, so I'm sure there'll be a third at some point. Francis Bradley 58:25 Excellent. Thanks a lot, Trevor. It was great to chat with you take care. Trevor Freeman 58:28 Yeah. Thanks. Francis Bradley 58:29 Cheers. Trevor Freeman 58:31 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com
Get to the bottom of how policy is ushering along the energy transition. In part two of the series, Associate Professor Nicholas Rivers shares how energy policies are helping shape the actions taken to address climate change. From decarbonizing buildings and transportation to the hard-to-tackle parts of Canada’s economy and its major industries. Plus policy’s role in supporting distributed energy and resources. Dive back into the conversation in episode 139 of thinkenergy.
Related links
● Listen to part one: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/energy-policy-deep-dive-with-nicholas-rivers-part-1/
● More about Nicholas Rivers: https://uniweb.uottawa.ca/members/969
● uOttawa Institute of the Environment: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/environment
● The Canadian Climate Institute: https://climateinstitute.ca/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcrpit:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. Okay, so this is part two of my conversation with Nicholas rivers about policy, and specifically how policy is and will in the future, shaping the different solutions and different actions that we can take to address climate change and to usher along the energy transition that has already started. As a refresher, Nicholas rivers is a Professor of Public Policy and International Affairs from the University of Ottawa. And his area of focus is really the sort of research into an evaluation of environmental policies. So this is a great conversation. And if you haven't listened to the previous episode with Nicolas, I really encourage you to do that it kind of lays the groundwork and really helps feed into this part of the conversation. On today's episode, we're going to talk about decarbonizing buildings, decarbonizing transportation, about some of those hard to tackle parts of our economy, kind of those major industries, as well as the role of policy and supporting distributed energy resources. So solar panels and batteries and things like that. So it's really a great conversation, start with the previous episode, if you haven't already. And then thanks for joining us here for this one. And happy listening. Okay, so we've talked about generation at the grid level, but let's talk about what we call distributed energy resources. And for our listeners, just a reminder, this is things like rooftop solar behind the meter storage, so having batteries at homes or businesses, which we are going to need a lot more of in the future. And we're going to see a lot more of on our grid in the future. What policy tools are out there that could help ramp up the implementation of these resources? Is it as simple as you know, incentives to lower the upfront cost?
Nicholas Rivers 02:21
Okay, good question. Maybe I'll just start out by giving some broader perspective about why we why we might want to go down the distributed energy route. So as you mentioned, a distributed energy resources are things like rooftop solar, right on the kind of residential building or a battery pack in the garage of your residential building. And this is a different approach than the way we normally approach the electricity sector, where our generation and storage infrastructure to the extent we have any is centralized, right. So in a centralized system, if it's solar, it would be a big utility scale solar project in a field somewhere, or now we're starting to see the ISO just approved a bunch of battery storage projects that are going to be you know, big centralized resources, really big batteries, or it could be pumped hydro, or you know, compressed air storage that that are not in someone's garage, they're, you know, these big sites that are that are well away from people's homes typically. So why would we want to change the paradigm and, and go towards this kind of decentralized type of approach where the where the resources are in people's homes or on people's homes? I'd say there was a couple of reasons we might want to go that route. One is that the distributed resources if they're in people's homes, well, they're close to the demand. Right? So if people you know, ultimately, the reason we have electricity generation is to meet people's and industries demands for electricity. And putting those resources right at the source of demand means that we don't need so many wires to connect the resources to the to the demand centers, and potentially that there's less congestion on the wires and, and less losses getting from the source of supply to the source of demand. So that's one reason. Another big reason I think, that will become more important in some areas of the world and more important as we scale up decarbonisation is land use, and then, you know, we got all these rooftops that are just sitting there. And putting solar panels on those, basically wasted surfaces is a way of conserving land as opposed to to putting new solar panels in a field that has other uses. So I see that as being a potentially really important reason why we might go down that decentralized route. It's important to say that land use constraints are not binding in Ontario today for for, especially for zero carbon resources, right? There's we're lucky in Ontario that we've got a fair amount of land per person. And we've also not got that many solar or wind or battery resources currently. And so the pressure that we're putting on our land from those types of centralized resources are pretty small. But certainly as we try to go further on that decarbonisation route, thinking about land constraints is going to be important. I would say that there is a downside to going the decentralized route. And that's that it's more costly. So generating electricity at a home, is storage of storing electricity at home is typically quite a bit more expensive than doing it at a utility scale, in a in a kind of centralized manner. And that's just because, you know, a solar panel cost what a solar panel costs. So you're getting, I think, the same basic solar panel, solar module, and a centralized system, compared to a decentralized system. But all the side costs, the cost of planning and installing, and all the racking that has to go for solar panels, same with batteries, is a lot more expensive, when it's done kind of on these boutique, individual roof projects, compared to what it's done in a centralized approach. And so what we're gonna do as we think about, you know, do we go down this more decentralized route or more centralized route? So we've got to think, are these land benefits and the benefits we get from having the resources close to the demand? Are they outweighing the extra cost that we're paying from, from going this more decentralized route?
Trevor Freeman 02:25
Yeah, so it's kind of an economies of scale question of obviously, investing in the infrastructure for a large scale solar installation gives you that, you know, more bang for your buck on a kilowatt hour basis, then each individual rooftop project, but I guess there's that aspect of, you know, customer control and customer preference of, you know, I like the idea of having my own power generated on my roof, it gives me some control, it gives me some redundancy. It also kind of protects and let me know what your thoughts on this it. It locks me into cost for energy, at least for a portion of my energy for the life of that equipment, rather than sort of being at the whim of rising utility costs over time. Is that a fair assessment?
Nicholas Rivers 07:15
Yeah, I think that's right. Solar panels and batteries, both have a free long lifetime. So once you've paid for them, you know, what you paid, and you're going to be able to amortize them over the length of the investment. Of course, that assumes that you're going to be living in the same house for the 20 or 30 years of the investment.
Trevor Freeman 07:31
Exactly. Yeah.
Nicholas Rivers 07:32
So I think there is still a risk there. But I do agree with you that it does put more control in individuals hands more, it gives people an ability to kind of choose their own destiny with respect to energy, it allows them to make a zero carbon investment that, you know, they maybe feel really strongly about, and that isn't being made on their behalf at the central level. So I think you're right that it does give more autonomy to households.
Trevor Freeman 07:58
Yeah. And the current way that we I guess, sort of funder incentivize, if you will, on rooftop solar, for example, is just through the rates, so you're offsetting your rates. And that is how you get your payback on your panels. I know you and I have chatted previously about the model in Australia. Can you tell us a little bit about how they've approached this?
Nicholas Rivers 08:20
Yeah. So, South Australia also uses this net metering approach. So basically, net metering means when you're consuming electricity, you can think of like an old analog meter, the meters running one direction. And then when you generate electricity, and return it to the grid, when you're not using as much as you're generating, the analog meter runs the opposite direction. Of course, these meters aren't analog anymore. They're digital, but they're allowing you to kind of reverse the meter at times when you're generating.
Trevor Freeman 08:50
Yep.
Nicholas Rivers 08:51
South Australia has been a real leader in getting solar on people's rooftops. Now, you might think, oh, it's super sunny in South Australia, and it is super sunny in South Australia. So it makes sense to have solar in people's rooftops. But there are lots of areas in the world that are super sunny, that have had not nearly the success that South Australia has had in putting solar on rooftops. And I would think one of the big reasons is, is program design. So they have designed a program that makes it really easy to access the program and access the incentives that are part of the program, and that lets household navigate it pretty seamlessly. So my understanding of the program is it's an incentive, which is the typical way we we kind of provide incentives for people to to undertake these novel technologies. It provides households with a you know, an upfront payment for for putting solar on the roofs. But I think that the real trick is that it's not provided to the household. And there's not an onerous application process that happens. It's provided to the to the companies that install solar panels on people's roofs and they pass through the incentive. Have to the household. So all of the paperwork and the planning is undertaken by the company. And the household, basically, just, as my understanding just says, Yeah, I want some solar panels on my roof. And, you know, tomorrow the solar panels are on the roof. And they don't have to go through the kind of extensive paperwork and the qualifying and the waiting for the, the incentive to be paid. It's all done upfront. And it's all done with a minimum of paperwork.
Trevor Freeman 10:23
Yeah, so from a homeowner perspective, in Canada versus in South Australia, South Australia is just seeking a much cheaper cost for solar, they don't have to jump through the hoops. That's all kind of done taken on by the government and by the the industry.
Nicholas Rivers 10:39
Yeah, and we do have incentives for solar here. In some provinces anyway, and there have been incentives federally, but they're there, they're more onerous to apply for. And they put the homeowner in the position of having to pay for the system upfront, and then waiting for the rebate. And it's a big outlay for homeowners and the rebate is uncertain, right? You can put the paperwork in. And of course, you think you're gonna get it back. But there's always that chance that something went wrong, and you didn't do it quite right. You don't get the rebate. Yeah, there's a risk there. So I think this this kind of upfront payments program that's processed by the company is as a real, you know, something we could learn from in Canada.
Trevor Freeman 11:16
Right. So that's potentially a key role. And this may be applies to other programs, as well of, of government have policies to take on that administrative burden take on that risk, if you will, away from the end user to make it seamless and streamlined for the end user and easier to do
Nicholas Rivers 11:33
People have better things to do than think about energy. And so I think that
Trevor Freeman 11:38
Or fill out paperwork,
Nicholas Rivers 11:39
yeah, fill out paperwork, and just, you know, they don't want to spend their time, you know, trying to figure out if the incentive is going to cover their net metering benefits they wants to be they want to be added be as easy as possible.
Trevor Freeman 11:52
Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, moving along, then to transportation. This is something of course, that Canadians will be pretty familiar with. We've seen a big move toward electrifying personal vehicles, there are more EVs out there today than ever before, you know, going back into even recent memory, it seemed like a rare thing to see an EV on the road. And now it's not at all, but there's still a long way to go. As much as we've got a lot more, we still are overwhelmingly using fossil fuels for our personal transportation. What kinds of approaches will help speed that transition up? We have a federal rebate when it comes to buying electric vehicle. Is that enough? Or are there other tools that we can use to speed up that transition?
Nicholas Rivers 12:36
Yeah, we're at about 11% of new cars that are sold are electric these days, and about one and a half percent of our fleet, because it takes our fleet a long time to turnover, right. So even if we get to 100% sales, we could still be waiting another 20 years before we get to 100% of our fleet be electric. So this is not going to be something that resolves itself really quickly. Because it does take a long time to turnover and longtime for car manufacturers to change the kind of vehicles they're making. I'm convinced we're on the transition, and that it is underway no matter what we do in this sector, that that these cars will be eventually be as cheap or cheaper than internal combustion engine cars, and will deliver the range that we want and the performance that we want. We're not there yet. So So what do we do in the meantime, I would say one of the things we should be doing as governments is fixing kind of the chicken and the egg problem of electric vehicles and governments are very active in this area. But the chicken and egg problem is who wants to build a charging station if there's no electric vehicles, and who wants to buy an electric vehicle if there's no charging stations. And so I think government has been playing an active role there, although arguably, it's still behind where we want it to be. People still experienced troubles with charging electric vehicles. And reliability of chargers is an issue. It turns out that the economics of operating a charging station don't look very good. And so perhaps there needs to be more of a public role in figuring out how to get these systems up and running more of the time. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like. But, but I do think the problem isn't going to solve itself entirely on its own, especially in more remote or Northern or rural areas. This probably along a lot of role for government support for charging. In terms of a policy approach. I really like the zero emission vehicle standard. This is just a standard that says okay, manufacturers, it's targeted. The manufacturer is not a retailer or not customers. And it says manufacturers you have to sell a certain proportion of the fleet you sell is zero by zero emission by this year and a bigger percentage by this year. And that's something that Quebec and BC and California and a number of other places have implemented zero emission vehicle standard, and the Canadian federal government has announced that it's going to go the same route.
Trevor Freeman 15:05
Gotcha.
Nicholas Rivers 15:06
And so what that says is, in 2026, in Canada, major vehicle manufacturers will have to sell 20% of their fleets as electric vehicles. Were at about 11% today. And that number will ramp up every year until it hits 100% by 2035. Now, again, I think this transition is happening anyway. So I think that that will help speed up the transition. But at it, it's not dramatically different from kind of what we expect, even without that kind of policy. And so I do think that's a that's a really nice policy, because it gives automakers a target, it gives them some certainty. And it helps to ensure that they make vehicles available to Canadians where they want them.
Trevor Freeman 15:48
Yeah, I think, I mean, we've all heard those stories of people that wanted to buy an electric vehicle on it wasn't ready, or the price point wasn't there. And I think by requiring more stock, requiring those targets to be hit, it's going to help move people along in the direction that a lot of people already want to go. And we're seeing that as those numbers tick up.
Nicholas Rivers 16:08
Yeah. Let me say a little bit more about this policy, because I think it's cool. It's one of those examples, which is a regulatory policy, which has a market based or carbon pricing kind of component to it. So it's regulatory, right? I just described that manufacturers have to hit, let's say, a 20% target in the year 2026. So the rule is, if you sell a lot of vehicles in Canada, 20% of them have to be electric by 2026. But then it's got this kind of hybrid component, not a hybrid car hybrid policy. So the it's kind of, it's got a carbon price kind of built in, which says, Hey, if you can't do it, well, you can trade with some other company that can. So maybe it's going to be gonna make up some names here, maybe it's going to be that company X says, oh, you know, we're really, you know, we really don't want to make the transition quite so quickly, we're going to sell internal combustion engine cars for a few more years. And Company Y says, Well, we're actually way ahead of that curve, it's going to be able to sell some of its credits, Company Y is going to sell some credits to Company X. And so Company X could keep doing what it's doing. But pay a penalty, that company y can get a benefit from being ahead of the curve.
Trevor Freeman 17:17
Gotcha. And to the consumer, the overall stock of options is still where the government wants it to be. There's still enough electric vehicles out there that we can purchase.
Nicholas Rivers 17:27
That's right. I think I mean, the the availability is less of a concern now than it was when supply chains were all snared up during the pandemic. I think if you went out and you had the money, and you were willing to, you wanted to go buy an electric car, you would get one relatively quickly today.
Trevor Freeman 17:42
Yeah
Nicholas Rivers 17:43
That's, that's I think that was that's a legacy problem that fortunately, we don't have so much anymore.
Trevor Freeman 17:47
So I mean, that's personal transportation, we're also seeing a move to make public transportation more carbon free and more electric here in Ottawa, where I'm based where we're both based. We've seen our city make that transition to electric buses, we're bringing on you know, a portion of the fleet in the next couple of years is going to be electric buses, we've seen our new LRT system is at least partially electrified, what are some of the policies out there that are helping municipalities or operators and public transit systems make this shift from traditional fossil fuel systems?
Nicholas Rivers 18:27
Yeah, so this is a procurement policy. So it's government saying, we're going to create a new market for this technology that doesn't really exist yet. And help to drive drive technology along right. So this is something we talked about a little while ago. And I think that this will help, you know, these these vehicles, big vehicles with heavy duty cycles. There's certainly parallels in kind of goods transport. So having some of that kind of exposure to new deployment in the public sector, I think will help with decarbonizing goods transport later on. So this is one of the cases where governments kind of creating this niche role for each policy or niche, I guess, nice role for this technology to be deployed first. And it's accepting the higher cost of these policies of these technologies initially, and will help drive down the costs as they get some experience with these technologies. Okay, so what's it what's it doing in Ottawa? Ottawa has promised to not buy any more fossil fuel buses, it's gonna slowly transition its bus fleet to electric. And I guess that's a procurement policy. It's supported by funds from the federal government. So the Canadian infrastructure bank supports this policy. And so the way that it works is the federal government's pay the additional cost that the electric bus costs relative to a normal diesel bus, and the city just pays the same as it would for the normal diesel boss with the feds picking up the rest of the tab.
Trevor Freeman 19:58
Right
Nicholas Rivers 19:58
The city's original expense. response has been really positive, it's found that maintenance costs are lower that fuel costs are lower, and the performance is at least as good in the electric buses compared to the, to the diesel buses. So it's experiencing a cost savings. And at least in the initial reporting, this seems like a really positive experience.
Trevor Freeman 20:17
So it's essentially the policy there is helping buy down that initial upfront jumping costs. So that, you know, yeah, municipal budgets can remain the same.
Nicholas Rivers 20:26
Exactly.
Trevor Freeman 20:26
But we get that better technology, and we're moving forward on our emissions reduction.
Nicholas Rivers 20:30
Yeah. So this is really a federal and and city policy.
Trevor Freeman 20:33
Gotcha. Okay, so let's talk about buildings, which are a major source of emissions, especially here in Canada, primarily because we are a cold climate, and we have to heat those buildings, or else they wouldn't be comfortable. And traditionally, this has been done with fossil fuels, you know, we burn natural gas, to heat our buildings is a large majority of Canadians. That's how they heat their space. In Canada buildings account for over 100 million tons of GHG emissions a year. So this is definitely a sector that we need to see some transition in how we approach them. What is the role of policymakers to help us decarbonize our buildings? And I want to split this question into two pieces, the first being residential buildings. And then we'll talk about commercial and institutional after because I think they're they're kind of different cases here. So let's talk about residential first.
Nicholas Rivers 21:25
Okay, residential buildings, I think heard at some of this is going to apply to both residential and commercial but of residential buildings, you're totally right to say that the big source of emissions is natural gas. And we do have other fuel uses as well like oil and propane, but the the big one is gas. And I think a special challenge for residential buildings. And it applies to commercial buildings as well, but especially residential is that they last a really long time. And then, so it's not like cars where you know, after we have got all the new cars to be zero emission, you got to wait maybe 10 or 15, or maximum 20 years, and the entire fleet is zero emission. Because cars only last 15 or 20 years buildings last, we don't even know how long they last hundreds of years. 100 years.
Trevor Freeman 22:14
Yeah, exactly.
Nicholas Rivers 22:15
And so we don't just have to tackle new buildings and then wait for them to kind of percolate through in the same way as we do for light bulbs or cars or something, we have to figure out a way to decarbonize existing buildings. And this turns out to be difficult. But let me start by saying the first thing we should do is make sure that the new buildings that we're building are not producing carbon emissions, that's the easiest thing to do. Getting a tackling a building or decarbonizing building, once it's already built, and part of the building stock is relatively difficult compared to taking a new building and designing to be zero carbon from the outset. And my view is that the best thing we can do there is to not connect new homes to the natural gas network, or at least pass the full costs of the natural gas network onto these new homes as they're built so that homeowners can make and developers can make an informed decision about the most effective way to produce those new homes.
Trevor Freeman 23:13
Yeah, I think like even that concept is something we talk about, you know, when we're working with our customers on equipment choices, as well, as you know, the decision you're making today on, you know, let's say your boiler will last with you for the life and that equipment. And in the case of a boiler, let's say that's 25 years, but to your point, in the case of a home, deciding to start down that path of fossil fuels, that building is going to live with us for you know, who knows how long and we will then have to get off those fossil fuels later. So I think for that new construction piece, yeah, that makes a lot of sense of making sure we're making the right decisions today, because we know we have to electrify
Nicholas Rivers 23:50
Right. Yeah, we do not what we don't want to do is build a gas home. And then 10 years later say, oh, let's actually make this home an electric home.
Trevor Freeman 23:58
Yeah, totally.
Nicholas Rivers 23:59
Because now we've spent twice on on one thing. So if we know we're gonna go zero emission, then we should be building new homes as zero emission homes. And we'll save money doing it.
Trevor Freeman 24:08
Yeah, and we know how to do that today.
Nicholas Rivers 24:10
We know how to do it. The harder problem is existing homes. And that's, you know, most of the homes that are around today that are part of our housing stock today will still be part of our housing stock in 2050. So we don't get to do over. We've got to tackle these existing homes. And it's relatively difficult compared to other sectors. Because if you want to take an existing home and decarbonize it, you really have to do it on a home by home basis. You have to invite you know, an auditor in and figure out what's wrong with it, or the cheapest way to decarbonize that home is most effective way to decarbonize at home, maybe get some engineers to help figure out what the interventions look like maybe gotta consultant in to put some new windows or doors or insulation or air sealing into the home and so but I adds up to a lot, a lot of people being touching the home, it's not something where we can go to a factory typically and pull out an identical component that, you know, might get cheaper over time, and strap it to the home. So I think that's part of what makes this challenge difficult. Luckily, we do have some kind of economies of scale in homes when it comes to heating systems. And this is heat pumps that can be adapted to most homes as a replacement for a furnace, or even a boiler. And Heat pumps are a technology that I think people have heard a lot more about over the last couple of years, they're basically an air conditioner that can run in reverse. So we can move heat out of a house and also move heat into a house. And these are getting more common for a cold climate, like we're in. And getting cheaper and contractors are getting more experienced with them. And so I think that we will start seeing more penetration of heat pumps in residential sector. Having said that, it's not a it's not a slam dunk. Right now, heat pumps, in some cases are cost effective compared to gas. But they're right at the margin, right? So you don't save a whole bunch of money by switching a gas furnace to heat pump. In, for example, in Ontario. Now that'll change. If our carbon price keeps going up every year, eventually, it'll it'll become something where the carbon price makes heat pumps make easy financial sense that it becomes a more straightforward decision. But right now, they're kind of similar cost to operate compared to a natural gas furnace. And so we're not seeing a whole bunch of penetration of them in Ontario.
Trevor Freeman 26:50
Yeah, I mean, I think that even even just that fact that actually, coincidentally, the previous episode on this, we actually talked about heat pumps and went through a bit of a case study with with someone that installed one, but you're right, like right now, you're kind of comparable, and your energy costs, maybe you save a little bit of kind of depends on on the rest of your context as well. But that highlights the value of the role in policy of helping to drive down that upfront cost. And by helping get more of them out there. And letting as we've talked about already, in this conversation, letting the market forces drive down the cost of heat pumps, because we're going to be putting more of them out there in the manual manufacturing process, the supply chain process, that's all going to find those efficiencies so that putting that heat pump in becomes comparable on an upfront cost basis to a furnace, for example, which today it's not.
Nicholas Rivers 27:44
Yeah, I would say the other challenge is that the whole HVAC or heating ventilation air conditioning ecosystem is set up around natural gas furnaces and natural gas water heaters in Ontario. And so the contractors are used to it, people are used to it. And it's it makes it kind of when your furnace or your hot water heater fails, and you panic a little bit because it's the winter and you don't want to get cold the next day, the easiest thing to do is to call your company and get them to put in the same thing as you've already had it's safe, you know it works. And by doing that, you've locked yourself into another 20 or 25 years of heating with natural gas. And so I think one of the things is just kind of the human dimension of this problem that heat pumps remain kind of is unconventional technology. They work really well they've been demonstrated to work really well in Ontario, but it's not widely known. And certainly the supply chain isn't there in the same way as it is for furnaces, and the contractors are, I think less comfortable with installing them as they are for furnaces. And so people get guided towards furnaces at the time of furnace failure or water heater failure. And it's only like this kind of, I think if the people that really want heat pumps that end up going towards that route right now. Because you really have to you have to want them for that to be the outcome. It's not something that's going to happen on its own. And unfortunately, in this moment of panic, you don't get the time to kind of reflect on on what you might want over the next couple of decades.
Trevor Freeman 29:25
Yeah, totally. And I've I've thought about this a little anecdote on this show before my own experience with having a furnace die in January as I was starting my research into heat pumps and ended up being able to get a heat pump but not in the manner that I wanted, not the system that I really wanted. And, and yeah, I ended up because of that, having to do all the research myself and being someone that works in the energy space. That's, you know, that's what the reality was.
Nicholas Rivers 29:50
I would say the other thing is I heat pump provides both air conditioning and heating. And it turns out that heat pump is basically cost competitive with a new furnace, and a new air conditioner. So if you if you, if you take a new house, and you either decide to put in a furnace and an air conditioner or heat pump, it's a wash, you'll pay the same for both. But very rarely does a house have a furnace and an air conditioner fail at exactly the same moment. So that they're making this kind of apples to apples comparison of a system that can provide both heating and cooling with another system that could provide both heating and cooling. And so this is like this coordination problem that heat pumps provide. And so I think when we're thinking about public policy, we should be thinking about not this kind of rational decision maker that's weighing the pros and cons of these two systems. But really, the person who's in a panic because their furnace failed in the middle of the night. And we got to think about how to make the Low Carbon solution, the easy solution for that person.
Trevor Freeman 30:50
Yeah, 100%. I mean, this goes back to the, I guess, the intro of what will be part one of this conversation that I gave and talking about, you know, the policy piece is kind of that foundation, that bedrock upon which the technological solutions the societal solutions are built, and exactly what we talked about with solar. How can we use policy to make this an easy path, make it the easiest path so that when someone doesn't want to think about it, when their furnace dies in the middle of the winter. This is the logical and easy and the path that they're going to choose.
Nicholas Rivers 31:23
Yeah, I think in many cases, choices are problematic, right? I'm a believer that that's not that's not universally true that more choices are often better. But also that we can get paralyzed by choices. So having to choose between a heat pump and a furnace is difficult for most people. Most people don't want to spend your time thinking about that. And I think, eventually, I'm of the view that we want to take a regulatory approach that we don't want to just allow everyone to be kind of deliberating especially at a panic about this choice themselves. Probably eventually, when heat pumps become good enough universally, that we want to have that be the regulated solution.
Trevor Freeman 32:02
Yeah, gotcha. Especially when to your point. It is the it becomes that clear, best choice. It's the most efficient.
Nicholas Rivers 32:09
Exactly, yeah.
Trevor Freeman 32:10
And we're working towards that we're getting
Nicholas Rivers 32:12
we're not quite there yet. There are places where heat pumps are not as effective as furnaces. And so I think that's why we haven't seen regulation in this space yet. But I think that should be an end goal.
Trevor Freeman 32:23
Gotcha. Okay, so that was residential buildings. As I said, commercial and institutional are kind of a different beast altogether. These are bigger buildings systems are bigger and obviously, more expensive ownership structure can be complicated. You have owners of buildings and tenants, you have investment companies that are sort of investing in the building as an asset as a way to make money. Help us tackle this beast, what is the role of policy and helping commercial buildings decarbonize here in Canada?
Nicholas Rivers 32:56
Yeah, good question. Again, I wouldn't say this kind of tenant and owner issue also applies if the residential sector, right, so there are renters that want to have a more efficient building, and that don't have any power to make investments in their building. So similar dynamic there, I think. I won't talk about specific technologies in the commercial sector, although there are lots of places that are experimenting with innovative new heating and cooling technologies, again, heating and cooling as the big greenhouse gas source in the commercial building sector, like it isn't residential. But I will just say that, I think the the types of decisions that are made and the way that they're made, it is quite different in the commercial sector to the residential sector. In a bigger commercial building, there'll be a building manager that's responsible for making decisions about, about heating and cooling investments in that. In that building, there'll be lots of tools that they have access to building management software, that that kind of optimizes building energy use, and costs, and helps them to make these kinds of decisions. So whereas the residential consumer doesn't necessarily want to think about what their what types of investments they should make to maximize their comfort and minimize their energy costs. That's what this building manager in a building is paid to do. And so they are going to be really thinking about this, these decisions carefully, and they're not going to be you know, they are going to be highly engaged in these decisions about what what types of energy to be using in the building. And as a result, I would say that carbon pricing can be quite effective in this sector, that policies that shift the relative costs of heating with gas compared to heating with electricity. They're going to hit the bottom line in that building manager for that building manager really quickly and allow them to kind of pivot if there are technologies available that can help them reoptimize in response to these changing prices, I will say that it's important to think about designing rebates for that carbon price. So we don't end up digging, our commercial buildings say we've we've designed rebates for, for residential households and for big industry. But I do think that this kind of pricing tool can be effective, probably more effective in the commercial sector than it can be in the residential sector. Because because there are people whose job it is to pay attention to building energy costs.
Trevor Freeman 35:31
Yeah, and I mean, you talk about rebates, I think, if there's a way to direct those rebates or direct that reinvestment into the types of solutions that are going to help people double down on the savings, and reduce their carbon consumption, and you know, then the next time around, it's even better and even better, I think that's definitely impactful.
Nicholas Rivers 35:51
Right? Yeah. So combinations of incentives and a kind of carrots and sticks approach. I agree.
Trevor Freeman 35:57
I do want to mention, and partly this is a bit of a plug here on the hydro Ottawa side of, you know, one of the initiatives that the federal government's taken on in terms of deep retrofits for commercial buildings is something they call their deep retrofit accelerator initiative. It's a program that hydro Ottawa is a part of two builds, build support services for commercial customers to identify pathways to decarbonize. So this isn't, you know, going out and paying for boilers or electric boilers or things like that, but it's helping building owners create a plan to tackle these complex, these complex retrofits. And that's something that the federal government is investing in. So I mean, for our listeners in our area, definitely keep your eyes and ears open for more information coming on that because it's early days yet. Okay, so my last question for you, Nick. And just looking at the time, I know we've we've taken a lot of time here chatting, it's been great. But I do want to touch on quickly before we wrap up, kind of what might be one of the trickiest areas, which is this idea of kind of heavy industry resource heavy industry, things like you know, the manufacturing of steel and chemicals and cement. There's a lot of emissions associated with this. They have kind of pretty unique demands in terms of high heat, high temperatures, things that are easily achieved with burning fossil fuels, maybe not so easily achieved with an electric option. What are we doing in that sense? What is the government doing to try and help those industries pursue decarbonisation?
Nicholas Rivers 37:28
Yeah, so we've kind of I'm in the the climate world climate policy world. And we have called these sectors for a long time, in quotes, the hard to decarbonize sectors, so, so it's been something where it's the kind of prevailing idea has been, let's all work on the stuff that's relatively easy today, like buildings and electricity, and vehicles. And eventually we'll find solutions for these hard to decarbonize sectors. And these are decarbonize sectors are things like cement, and steel, like you pointed out are chemicals, for example of pulp and paper, these big industrial sources, and it's not just that they require a lot of heat, or a lot of energy. In many cases, it's that carbon is released as part of the process for producing these materials. So for example, when you produce cement, I'm not a chemist here, but my understanding is you take limestone and turn it into lime as part of the cement making process. And the chemical reaction releases co2. Same thing with the typical way for making steel. You're reducing iron ore, and the reduction process that takes place in a blast furnace takes the poles the I'm gonna get in trouble here. I don't quite know what the reaction is. It releases co2 from the iron ore reduction process, in concert with coal. So they do require a lot of heat, but they're also releasing co2, just as part of the kind of process of producing these materials. So no matter how efficient they get that co2 is still coming out. And so that's part of the reason they're referred to as these hard to decarbonize sectors, I would say, Well, let me say that the thought that we've had as a community thinking about how to transition the economy is that it should be possible to do a lot of this easy stuff, almost 100% Man company easy, almost in quotes, here. decarbonizing buildings will be talked about is not actually easy. It's hard. It's easy relative to these hard to decarbonize sectors. So if we can get the easy sectors more or less decarbonized. One approach to dealing with these hard to decarbonize sectors would be to use, carbon capture and storage. So it would be to take the co2 that's coming out of these fixed processes, and capture it before it goes into the atmosphere and try The sequester it permanently, let's say in a depleted oil and gas reservoir. So that's one approach, we're also seeing a lot of a lot of innovation in this sector, away from some of these fixed process emissions. And so I'll give you an example. In Ontario, the federal and provincial governments recently put big investments into some of the steel facilities in Ontario. And these are our biggest point sources of co2 emissions in the province. These steel facilities, they're especially scattered around Southern Ontario around Hamilton. And, and they use this reduction process to to turn iron ore into steel. And then the big investments the province and federal government have put in how they are transitioning some of these steel producing facilities from from electric RBO blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. So it will take the coal out of the process basically. And the these, these facilities when they're up and running, will produce big savings and greenhouse gas emissions. By eliminating this kind of important source of co2. We're seeing lots of innovation in the cement sector as well. So using different materials, in as part of this, the cement production. We're seeing a big project, for example, underway in Edmonton, it's a big cement facility that will have a lot of efficiencies built into it. But we'll also have CCS carbon capture and storage, it will be adapted for carbon capture and storage so that the co2 that's produced from this facility won't be released from to the atmosphere, it will be it will be sequestered underground. So I would say the role for government and these nascent, I would say projects is a direct support role to help these industries demonstrate the viability of some of these alternate pathways for producing basic materials with less carbon. And what we're seeing is government supporting these through either direct subsidies, or tax credits. And in some cases, we're seeing when these projects are starting to be produced materials, we're seeing government potentially have a role in procurement saying we're gonna buy lower carbon cement for this new set of government buildings, we're not going to source it from usual suppliers, we're going to reach out and try to create a niche market for this new cement or this new steel. So I think that's the right role. We're not at the stage yet where we can mandate these kinds of innovative technologies, because we're really just at the demonstration phase. But I would say that over the last decade, we're moving from thinking of these sectors as hard to decarbonize, to thinking maybe, to, you know, possible to decarbonize, so it initially seemed like there wasn't really a pathway and we're starting to see some light in the tunnel. Now some potential pathway for decarbonizing these sectors.
Trevor Freeman 42:58
Gotcha. Yeah, I mean, similar to how we have most, if not all the answers we need. Now, for some of those other industries, we talked about personal transportation, buildings, etc. There may come a day when we look back and say, yeah, now we've got all the answers we need for the heavy industry. It's just a matter of deploying them. But we're not there yet.
Nicholas Rivers 43:18
Exactly. We're not there yet. You know, it may turn out that these are not the hard sectors. Right, that if these technologies come along, there's only I don't know exactly the number. But let's say on the order of a dozen cement factories in Canada. So if we can figure out the technology, rolling it out to a dozen factories, institutionally is maybe not as hard a problem as rolling out building retrofits to 15 million buildings. So So right now, this seems like the hard to decarbonize sector, but maybe we'll be surprised.
Trevor Freeman 43:47
And to your point, I mean, pretty good bang for buck, maybe when we talk about just the amount of emissions from single points from these from these industries.
Nicholas Rivers 43:56
Yeah, I think the steel sector numbers in Ontario, these two facilities are we're gonna see a 3 million tonne per year greenhouse gas reduction, well, from the investments that Ontario and the feds have made in and converting them to electric arc furnace.
Trevor Freeman 44:11
Great. Well, Nick, I think that's the list of questions I had for you. So thanks very much. I really appreciate the time and your thoughts on these matters. It was great to having this conversation with you. We do always end our conversations with a series of questions that I asked all of our guests. So as long as you're ready to go, I'll jump into those.
Nicholas Rivers 44:30
Let's do it.
Trevor Freeman 44:31
What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Nicholas Rivers 44:34
This year, I read fire weather by John Vaillant. I've read a number of his books in the past. I love the way he writes. He's a Canadian author. He writes both nonfiction and fiction. This is about the big fire that took place in Fort McMurray in 2016. And it's a nonfiction book, but it's gripping. He's such a good writer. And it's such an important thing for us to understand exactly what's happening again, this year we've seen Fort McMurray threatened just last week by wildfires. So I really recommend this book. It sounds dry. It's about forest fires, but it's not at all. It's really good.
Trevor Freeman 45:09
Yeah. Okay, great. That's a good one. Same question, but for a movie or for a show.
Nicholas Rivers 45:14
I am. I'm a pretty slow TV watcher. I don't get a ton of time. But I am watching Showgun right now and loving it. Don't tell me the end, because I'm not through. But it's excellent show.
Trevor Freeman 45:26
Yeah, so I haven't started it yet, because I read that book as a teenager and haven't read it since. So I'm rereading it right now. And then I'm gonna watch the show after
Nicholas Rivers 45:35
I didn't read it. So I'm my wish with fresh eyes.
Trevor Freeman 45:39
I remember liking it, but I can't remember kind of how it ends. So I'm as excited as you are to see the end of that. If someone was to offer you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Nicholas Rivers 45:52
Well, I am a little sensitive about flying long ways, just because of the nature of this conversation but my kids, I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old. And they're super into comics and Nintendo and really want to go to Japan. So I would go to Japan for for a few weeks with them.
Trevor Freeman 46:13
Who is someone that you admire?
Nicholas Rivers 46:15
This was hard. I set out you gave me these questions a couple of days ago. And I sat out on the front porch and the first nice day we had in a while with my wife and my kids. And I was telling them about this. And I said I was stuck on the Who do I admire? And they said, You should admire us. So I admire my kids. They're really optimistic. They're super fun. They're loving life. And I think it's a great set of characteristics.
Trevor Freeman 46:41
Yeah, that mean, that is never a bad answer. That's a great answer, and good for them for self awareness to call you out. Finally, what is something that you are excited about when it comes to the energy sector or this transition that we're in what excites you about the future where we're going?
Nicholas Rivers 47:00
Well, let me give a two pronged answer here. I'll start by saying that I'm nervous.
Trevor Freeman 47:04
Yeah
Nicholas Rivers 47:04
I think the stakes are high. We're learning more and more as a society about, you know, what climate change looks like. And it's not pretty. And the I think the big thing that we have to keep in mind, and the thing that keeps me optimistic is that we still have a lot of role to play in determining where we ended up here. And, and we're seeing really dramatic changes in Technologies, and in people's engagement and policymakers engagement on on this file. So we've talked about how fast some of the technologies have moved over the last couple of decades or decade in particular, solar and vehicles and batteries and all these things. We're also seeing policy change really dramatically, right? It would have been inconceivable to say that we would have a high carbon price and a mandate for zero emission vehicles and phase out of coal fired power and potential clean electricity regulation and an oil gas cap, and all this stuff on the books 10 years ago, and and now we're there. So I feel like not only is technology changing quickly, but the policies are also changing quite quickly. And and it looks like they're all changing in the right direction.
Trevor Freeman 48:19
Yeah, I definitely can relate to that. As someone who's been in this industry, this sector for a little while, at least, it feels like there's momentum now it feels like the pace of change is finally starting to really pick up and not where we need it to be. There's lots of work to do, as you say, but yeah, maybe we're starting to see things move a little faster
Nicholas Rivers 48:42
Yeah, exactly. So there's certainly reason for optimism. That's that's kind of guarded optimism.
Trevor Freeman 48:47
Yeah, that's a that's a fair point to end on. I think that's a good space then. Nick rivers. Thanks very much. I really appreciate you coming on the show and chatting with us today. And I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Nicholas Rivers 48:59
Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it, too.
Trevor Freeman 49:00
All right. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com
In this first of a two-part series, we unpack the vital role of policy in driving the energy transition with Nicholas Rivers, Associate Professor at the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and the Institute of the Environment at the University of Ottawa. Join us as we explore the layers of policy implementation, the interplay of social and technological solutions, and the challenge of designing policies that balance data with public opinion and emotion.
Related links
More about Nicholas Rivers: https://uniweb.uottawa.ca/members/969
uOttawa Institute of the Environment: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/environment
The Canadian Climate Institute: https://climateinstitute.ca/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Energy Policy Deep Dive with Nicholas Rivers (Part 1)
Fri, May 24, 2024 11:55AM • 52:17
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
emissions, policy, carbon, price, work, canada, carbon pricing, technology, government, cost, climate change, electricity, big, emitters, action, ontario, regulations, podcast, climate, energy
SPEAKERS
Nicholas Rivers, Trevor Freeman
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We've talked a lot on the podcast about how climate change is a big complex problem. And the entity transition that is already underway is also a big complex undertaking. These things require complex solutions to address them, it's not a single thing that's going to solve this for us. You know, we often think about solutions as being some kind of technology, either an existing technology or something that we're going to innovate on or invent in the future. And we talk about a lot of those on the podcasts, everything from heat pumps, to renewable generation to grid modernization. But technology doesn't just exist and grow in a bubble. And we can't just rely on technological solutions on their own to solve climate change or to help continue the energy transition. There is also a need for other approaches, for example, Social approaches, you know, we need to educate people on what climate change is and how it works and what we need to do to change it. We need to motivate people, we need to rile up people to create that desire for change, and create the political and social will to go behind that. What are the key drivers to help advance all of these different moving parts, if you will, is policy our policy solutions, you can really think of policy as the foundation or the bedrock upon which all these other things are built. And when we talk about policy, we're talking about all different levels. So from the federal government, to provincial governments, who are municipal governments, and you know, this is the Canadian context, we're in Canada speaking about this. So if you're listening from a different country, you know, slot in your various levels of government there. Our policy solutions are what push or pull certain actions. And I'm sure we're all familiar with the sort of carrot and stick analogy. Carrots being those things dangled in front of us to help us move towards some more desirable action or desirable state sticks being you know, the sort of prod or push that are going to, you know, help push us into something or away from something else. These policy solutions are really designed to make a desirable action easier and more likely, and to make an undesirable action harder and less likely. So in the context of climate change, for example, the desirable action might be the adoption of cleaner technologies, like EVs or renewable generation, or speeding up the development and adoption of new technologies, where the undesirable action might be just the status quo like doing things, the way we've always done them, we know we need to change that's an important piece, or the undesirable action might be just the continued use of fossil fuels, we need to move away from that that's the undesirable action that's not going to help us solve climate change. And so we're going to talk about policy today. And I'll talk about our guests in a minute. But I think it's important to also remember this next piece, and that is that policy is tough. It is tough to know what will work and what won't work. It's tough to know what the thing is, that's going to really create the desired action you want, that people are going to get behind. policy can be uncomfortable, as I've said, policy prioritizes certain actions over others. And we've talked about this before Canadians and more broadly, people, we are not homogenous in the way that we think or care about things we don't always care equally about the same things. We all have different pressures and drivers in our lives. We all have different contexts in our lives, and so naturally, our priorities aren't always going to line up. And when you have a policy that is designed to prioritize certain actions over others, some portion of the population is going to disagree that that's the right priority. And in practical terms, it's usually a bunch of different portions of the population that agree or disagree in varying amounts. Policy is often designed and applied in what you might call a scientific way. So certain policy tools have expected outcomes that can be measured. There are, you know, metrics that go behind these things. But policy is often received by the general public in a very decidedly non-scientific way. In fact, we typically receive policy in a more emotional way, how we feel about some new policy really is what drives our opinion and our action around that policy. And that's more so than maybe the data will drive our opinion in our actions. In fact, the way that we look at that data is often influenced by sort of our emotion around how we feel about something. And I'm not saying that's wrong. That's kind of just human nature. And we all do it no matter what your I guess political leaning is where you fall in the spectrum. We all do this with, with policy, with the direction that our government is taking. But knowing that is helpful, and it lets us check in with ourselves against that, you know, are we really looking at things just based on the merits based on the data, or what is the emotion that we're feeling about certain things, I think that's important. So with that preamble, my guest today is here to help us pull apart the suite of policy tools that are already playing a role in helping us decarbonize and tackle climate change and some of the things that might be upcoming, or other options that are out there. And I'm gonna say off the bat that there's a lot to talk about here. This is quite a long conversation. So we're actually going to split this into two pieces. We'll have part one and part two, and kind of break it up into two different episodes so that they're a little bit easier to get through. But I'll say in advance, I appreciate you sticking through. I think this is an important topic of conversation and, and my guest today knows a lot about it. So I'm happy to have Nicholas Rivers on the podcast today. Nicholas Rivers is a Professor of Public and International Affairs from the University of Ottawa. His research focuses on the economic evaluation of environmental policies. He is a member of the Canadian climate Institute and served as a co editor of the Journal of Environmental Economics and Management, and was previously a Canada Research Chair in climate and energy policy. Nick regularly provides advice on energy and climate policies to federal and provincial governments, as well as nongovernmental organizations. So Nicholas, welcome to the show.
Nicholas Rivers 07:32
Thanks for having me on, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 07:34
So let's start with a little bit of background, can you give us a sense of how you got to where you are today, and really specifically how you came to be passionate about environmental policy?
Nicholas Rivers 07:44
Okay, well, this is something where, you know, maybe it's easy to look back and paint a linear trajectory. But certainly, this is not, this was not the aim. From a young age, I didn't have career goals, I would say leaving high school had no idea. I had been pretty good at math and, you know, a tinkerer. I liked playing with capsula, which was this cool, mechanical toy, and Lego, and that kind of thing. And so I did engineering, without really an end goal in mind. I did mechanical engineering. And at that time, you know, when I was in my late teens, early 20s, I started reading books about kind of nascent books about climate change books about energy, I had friends that were really active in the kind of energy and environmental movements, and started to realize that that's maybe where I wanted to focus, my energy, my own energy. And so in my mechanical engineering degree, I wanted to start working on renewable energy, which was really at the beginning at the time, this was the late 1990s. So at the time, there was one wind turbine in Ontario. I went to visit it during my mechanical engineering degree, the Pickering one, right. It was up. No, it was up on the Europe like you're on the Peninsula, Brisbane and so Okay, gotcha, right by the British nuclear station. It was a test one, it wasn't a big commercial wind facility. So I was just like, digging around trying to find interesting stuff. And wind turbines look really interesting because they were big, and they were in moved and they you could see something they were doing. I didn't end up working in wind facilities. I ended up getting some jobs and hydrogen worked with Ballard and Hydrogenics as a co-op engineer. So that was my kind of foot in the in the renewable world. And I have to say, I didn't really like it all that much. I was doing, you know, I was in the field that I kind of wanted to be in the engineering field. And it's working on renewables, but the jobs I was doing didn't appeal to me. So they were really kind of small bits of the renewable energy picture and I was reading the books at the time by Amory Levin's and if you come across him or Paul Hodgkin and they were talking about big system transformations. And that's what I wanted to get into. And here I was figuring out the right radius to bend a pipe that transferred humidity from one stream to another. And it just wasn't jiving with the big picture that I was interested in. And so I ended up going back to university after my undergraduate degree, to study resource and environmental management with Mark Jackered, at Simon Fraser University. And Mark is one of the people that's been really central in thinking about energy policy and environmental policy in Canada over the last, I guess, like four decades now. And I think exposure to the way he was thinking and the way I was taught to think in that program really got me interested in and working on energy and environmental policy on a kind of as a career, and expose me to the possibility that you could work on this right, as a high school student leaving high school, you don't think that there's jobs working on energy policy, so it wasn't something I had in mind from for a long time. I'll also say, I grew up in a family that I don't know if they were environmentalist, but certainly fought a lot about the environment, you know, bird watching, and hiking, and that kind of thing. I was outside a lot when I was young, and I still like to be outside all the time. So I think there's, I've always had that kind of affinity for the environment. But this was a way that I could kind of blend some of my math skills or some of my interests and tinkering with, with some of those kinds of environmental affinity.
Trevor Freeman 11:31
Yeah, I mean, this is definitely not an episode where I need to give my backstory, but there's so much of what you said that, that I relate to from drawing a connection between playing with Lego as a kid and ending up in engineering school, that's totally my pathway as well, and being you know, good at math, getting into engineering school, and then realizing, hey, there might be something else out here through a project. And so I did my fourth year design project, just on a whim on a green roof for one of our university buildings
Nicholas Rivers 11:59
Ah cool.
Trevor Freeman 12:00
I would say that's kind of a point where it pushed me into this more sustainability focused career. So great to hear that. Thanks for sharing that. And certainly, I can appreciate the lack of linearity and a lot of careers in this space, and really the
Nicholas Rivers 12:14
Exactly, yeah
Trevor Freeman 12:15
everything. So. Okay, so the topic here, we're talking about today's policy. So I want to have you help us understand what is the history of decarbonisation policy in Canada? You know, we're at a point today, and we'll talk about maybe where we need to go moving forward. But what has come before this? When did we start seeing policies focused on reducing carbon in Canada, give us a bit of a crash course on our history so far.
Nicholas Rivers 12:45
Sure, I'll do my best. It's not that new. Right. We've known about this for a long time. In fact, I teach a course on climate. And, you know, in digging around for that course, we have studied climate change for over a century. The first, I think, relatively modern looking predictions about climate change came in the 1800s, the late 1800s. And so we have had a pretty good sense of where we're going for a long time. The first real government assessment of the severity of climate change came in the 1960s. This was a US government and national assessment, National Science Assessment. And it pretty much got the contours of the problem right, in the sense that we haven't, haven't changed our understanding of the science of climate change all that dramatically since the 1960s. The projections from that time still hold out today. In Canada, we didn't act quickly after the 1960s reports in the US, although we certainly followed them. The first thing Canada did, I would say, was hold a big international conference on climate change in the late 1980s, in Toronto. And this is a period, you know, when we were holding a number of these big international conferences on sustainable development, for example, or on climate for the first time, and Canada did its part in Toronto in '88 by holding this conference called the World Conference On The Changing Atmosphere. And at that conference, it was recognized that we can't keep going the way we are on climate. It's not sustainable, we're going to end up with more of a warmer world than we want. And we promised at the time, to reduce emissions by 20%. From those levels in the 80s. By the beginning of the century, by the beginning of a new millennium, which we didn't do. We didn't do it. Of course, yeah, this is gonna be a kind of recurring theme. It didn't do much in the way of policy, you know. So I think something we've learned is that just saying, we're going to do something doesn't amount all that much. But we've done that a number of times, and we started doing it in the 1980s. We didn't really start following up with proper policies, and by proper policies, I mean, policies that compel emitters, anyone who emits emissions to change their behavior in some way, either by replacing a technology or, or changing their actions. Until I would say the middle of the first century, or the first decade after the new millennium, so around 2005. And at the time, it wasn't the federal government that was really in the driver's seat on climate policy. It was the provincial governments. And so we saw at the time, British Columbia's government started experimenting with a carbon tax. We saw Alberta's government implement some restrictions on industrial emissions, we saw the Quebec government implement some, some transport industrial policies. We saw Ontario phase out coal fired power starting in 2007. And so it was really the provincial governments that were in the driver's seat, the federal government, you know, it was starting to tinker. But the federal government didn't really begin to take a really strong position, policy wise on climate change until around 2015. And that was the point when the federal government convened the provinces to get agreement that they should all move forward on implementing carbon pricing. All the provinces agreed except for one at the time. And so they all brought in a carbon price, either it was the federal carbon price that was imposed, or the provinces imposed their own carbon price. And that was the beginning really, of a whole slew of other policies and regulations. So since that 2015 period, I would say the federal government has really been more in the driver's seat on climate policy, and has implemented things like regulations on methane emissions, as has required the phase out of coal fired power, which is actually by 2030 of the requirement, but it's actually proceeding quite a bit quicker than the federal requirement. It's also got this carbon price in place, it's bringing in policies to require a complete cleaning of the electricity grid, a cap on oil and gas emissions and regulations on zero emission vehicles. And so really kind of multifaceted regulations coupled with this carbon price. And increasingly over the last couple of years, we're also seeing them coupled with pretty big subsidies for structural transformation of the economy. So you're seeing this play out in Ontario with battery plant investments, for example. And so I would say that's the policy kind of history, we're seeing a pretty slow start. We've known about the problem a lot longer than we've been acting on the problem. We saw ramp up provincially, after the millennium, and that we've seen the transition from the provinces to the federal government taking leadership on this file for the last decade or so.
Trevor Freeman 18:01
And as you said, like, slower than fast, but more to come. We're not done where we are today is not where we need to be. Yeah. So there's lots to talk about.
Nicholas Rivers 18:11
Yeah, exactly. Good point. So we, we've our admissions, not surprisingly, in the absence of any policies kept on growing up until about 2005, when we started bringing in policy. Until that point, it was like, received wisdom, that anytime the economy grew, which it mostly does every year, greenhouse gas emissions would grow with it. And that that held for a long time, like maybe even a century leading up to around 2005. And then policy really started to break that chain. And so we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and greenhouse gas emissions in Canada, as well as most other rich countries over the past decade and a half or so. But emissions aren't falling fast. In fact, they hardly even fall. They're falling from where they would have been, but they're not, they're more or less flat lines in Canada are beginning a very slow decline. Yeah. And we've got a maybe it's worth saying, one of the things that we've learned from the climate scientists is that emissions have to go to zero. There's not, you know, we can't solve this problem with modest cuts in emissions, which is where we're at right now that you can think of this as like filling up a bathtub with a tap, and the bathtub is going to keep filling until the tap comes off until the tap turns off completely. And so the goal, the end goal here, if we want to stop the world from heating up is stopping all emissions. And I think that's something that it took me a long time to appreciate. But it's something that I think is transformative and thinking about environmental policy.
Trevor Freeman 19:45
Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that really underpins the conversation today of seeing the role in policy to start decoupling what else is happening in our society with our emissions levels, and I think we're going to pick apart some of those Pacific examples during our conversation. So you brought up carbon pricing. I think everybody listening to this podcast, probably would agree that's, you know, at least the most public if not the signature national decarbonisation policy in Canada today, it's the one that certainly gets the most notice and the most discussion. So I want to start there, I want to pick it apart a little bit. I mean, to say that it's a divisive issue would be kind of an understatement. Help us understand how carbon pricing works in Canada today? What is our current scheme that we have in this country?
Nicholas Rivers 20:37
Good question. Okay, let me start out by saying what's the point of carbon pricing? Because I think it's not evident for lots of people, it seems like a crazy idea. The basic idea is that we live in a market economy. And a market economy is one where the market responds to the cost of producing something and the desire of people to buy something. And so the market sets the prices, and the market determines how much gets produced in response to the prices and how much people buy in response to the prices. It's not directed by some other entity, as a market economy tends to work best when the prices of things reflect their costs. So if I want to go buy some bread, the idea in a market economy is that the price of the bread that I buy should reflect the cost to produce the bread, right, the cost of the grains that are used to make it and the cost of labor, and the machines that are required to make it. And if that does reflect the cost, and there's a motivation for the bread maker to make the bread for me, and, and so it'll be there when I want to buy it. And the idea that behind this carbon pricing is that there is a cost to me producing carbon emissions. Right? So the cost is it makes the world a little warmer. And there's a cost in lives and livelihoods, and wellbeing, from climate change. But I don't pay a price, right, I don't pay the cost, I'm not required to pay the cost because this is a non market good. No one's producing climate change at the public good. And so the idea behind carbon pricing is, hey, the market doesn't work for this kind of good. One way we can fix it is by attaching a price to carbon emission. So it's just like bread when people use it, they have to pay the price to reflect the cost. And so that's the kind of basic fundamental and the, the idea that economists have had for a long time, is that if we properly price carbon emissions, people are going to use an awful lot less of them, because now their actions reflect the costs. Okay, so that's the kind of basic idea behind carbon pricing. Canada has brought in a carbon price federally in 2019 provinces implemented carbon prices, some of them much before that. So Alberta brought in an industrial carbon price in 2007. BC, brought in a carbon price throughout all emit for all emitters in 2008, and Quebec, as well. So, so the federal carbon price now is kind of the law of the land, in the sense that, in that 2016 meeting that I mentioned, where the federal and provincial governments agreed about carbon pricing, the agreement was we should all have a carbon price, let's make this a level playing field, let's all do our piece. And the federal government kind of took that message back and developed a federal carbon pricing benchmark, which said, Hey, provinces, you can do your own carbon price, as long as it's at least, you know, this certain level of stringency. But if you don't do it, we'll bring in our own federal carbon price in its stead. Okay, so provinces have the ability to do something on their own. And if they don't do anything, the federal government will, will bring in a carbon price. And so what we've got now is a kind of a system that's a bit piecemeal, where some provinces have their own carbon price and other provinces have not implemented a carbon price. And the federal government has brought one in and put in their place, the Federal carbon price as two parts. One is a consumer facing part. So for people like you and me, and for people or for institutions that are not giant emitters, like a university or hospital or a mall, for example. They all are subject to what the federal government calls a fuel Levy, and what the rest of us call a carbon tax. Big industrial emitters, like a pulp and paper plant or a steel plant, or a big electricity generator, are subjected to a different scheme. It's still a carbon price. But the way it works is a little different. And it's called an output based performance standard. So I'll speak briefly, on the industry side, the way it works is that each facility that produces a lot of emissions gets a target, then it's usually the same target for everyone in the sector. So at the target could be like, the target is for a steel sector, you have to produce steel with a carbon intensity of less than, say, one tonne of carbon per tonne of steel that you produce. So they get that target and if they managed to get their facility emissions below the target, they get a reward in terms of a carbon price, and if they their emissions are above the target, they have to pay a carbon price
Trevor Freeman 25:38
A financial reward. So they get some sort of incentive to be below that benchmark.
Nicholas Rivers 25:42
They basically get carbon credits, which have a financial value that you can trade them for dollars. So that's the way it works on the industry side. On the smaller emitter side, like you and me, it works a little differently. There's a levy on fuels. So any fuel that we might buy, like natural gas, or gasoline or diesel that contains carbon, or releases carbon, when it's combusted, is imposed in proportion to the amount of carbon that's released from that fuel when it's done. But, you and I are required to pay that fee. Now we don't pay it directly to the government, it's imposed at the retail level. So, you know, the gasoline station will pay the fee on our behalf, but then it'll raise the price of gasoline in the amount of the fee.
Trevor Freeman 26:33
Gotcha.
Nicholas Rivers 26:34
That's the main part of the system. The other thing with respect to this consumer carbon price, is that all that revenue that the government collects, is put into a pot. And then it's rebated back to us that, and you've probably heard about this, if you check your bank account, there'll be a Canada carbon rebate in your bank account, or at least each household will get one not each person.
Trevor Freeman 26:55
That's right.
Nicholas Rivers 26:55
So it depends on who to file their taxes First, each household who gets the rebate. So you want to be the first in your household to get your taxes done. But the money basically is raised from consumers in proportion to how much fuel they burn. And then the government collects it up, and rebates it back to consumers equally for all households. Okay, so a lot of people are confused about these parts, like why would they go to this trouble? Why would they raise money and then rebate it back? And this is an important point. This isn't a traditional tax, right? And then traditional tax governments implement the tax to raise revenue to, you know, buy or build a bridge or to fund a school or something like that. That's not what's going on here. The point of this fuel levy or carbon tax is to provide incentives for people to change their behavior. And in particular, it's to fix this market failure we talked about earlier with the cost of carbon emissions not reflected in their price. And so when the carbon price gets high, it will make a lot more sense for us as individuals to choose the low carbon action, as opposed to the high carbon action and save money doing it. And on the rebate side, the rebate is designed so that we don't get punished, we don't lose our you know, we don't become lower income as a result of this. And so it goes back to each of us equally. So no matter whether I do this, you know, whether I take the low carbon action, or I don't take the low carpet action, I get the same amount of rebate back regardless.
Trevor Freeman 28:26
So it opens the door, then to give people a little bit of control to work within the system to their own economic benefits.
Nicholas Rivers 28:35
Exactly.
Trevor Freeman 28:36
So if I can reduce my emissions and reduce my costs, I'm still gonna get the same amount back, but I'm going to be paying less of it.
Nicholas Rivers 28:42
You'll come out ahead.
Trevor Freeman 28:43
Yeah, it incentivizes me to do lower carbon things. So I pay less of that.
Nicholas Rivers 28:48
Exactly. That's the idea.
Trevor Freeman 28:49
Great. So I mean, the big question mark around all this. There's a lot of questions, obviously. But one of the big ones is, is it working? I mean, it's been in place, as you said since 2019. And in various forms across the country. Are we seeing the impact or the results that we as a society, or specifically the government intended to see from this? Are we reducing our fossil fuel consumption?
Nicholas Rivers 29:12
Yeah, I gotta give a two part answer.
Trevor Freeman 29:15
Sure. Yeah.
Nicholas Rivers 29:16
The first answer is, yes, it's working. So we've got dozens of studies that have looked at carbon prices in various jurisdictions around the world and use the data that we are able to gather to ascertain that yeah, carbon prices worldwide are definitely reducing emissions. Now, they're, they're not cutting emissions to zero, which is our goal, right? There's nowhere in the world that has implemented a carbon price and got emissions to go to zero. And you can see that in Canada emissions are basically flatlining. And so is it working? Yes, it's cutting emissions relatively where they would have been otherwise. But where it's not putting us yet on a trajectory towards getting to zero emissions. So emissions, carbon prices are still relatively low, worldwide and in Canada, and we don't really know what will happen when they ramp up to levels that might be commensurate with getting to zero emissions. But the initial forays into carbon pricing that we've seen around the world have suggested that this is definitely cutting emissions. Let me answer part two.
Trevor Freeman 30:22
Sure. Yeah.
Nicholas Rivers 30:23
And to part two is we don't really know that we don't really know because Canada implemented a carbon price nationwide in 2019. And so we don't have another Canada that didn't implement a carbon price in 2019. But everything else was exactly the same. To compare to, that's what we want to know, if we want to know that the carbon price worked, we would really want to have two Canada's and put a carbon price in one and not put a carbon price in the other, and then compare the two. And we don't have that. And in that sense, this is the same problem as we have for any big economic policy, or any big social policy or any big policy of any kind. We don't really know, for example, if single payer health care works, and then we don't have another candidate without single payer health care, but uh, we can, you know, have some proxies to think about whether it works, we can look at other jurisdictions that don't have single payer health care and try to make some comparisons. But we don't really know what would happen in Canada if we took away single payer health care, because we don't have another candidate without single payer health care. And so there are lots of studies that suggest that carbon prices are working. But we don't have, you know, that rock solid evidence, that of exactly what emissions are being cut by this, this carbon price in this context.
Trevor Freeman 31:39
Yeah, and I think that's partly why I talk about this a lot on the podcast with different guests on different topics. And it applies at the macro level with something like national policy, but also down to the micro level with, you know, what, what are individual utilities trying to do to meet the demands of the future, there really is not likely to be a single strategy that is going to get us where we need to be. It's not like we can pick that one. Policy, that one piece of technology. That's, that is the answer. That's really going to get us there. And I think that probably applies to carbon pricing as well. It's a tool in the toolbox.
Nicholas Rivers 32:16
Oh, absolutely. But I mean, I mean, let's just say that that's not what's what's happening. There were no governments, either provincially or federally, that have said, Okay, we're all in on carbon pricing. Now, we're done with our climate policy.
Trevor Freeman 32:29
Yeah
Nicholas Rivers 32:29
That's not at all the picture in Canada. So let's not, I don't want to paint that as, as the picture because as I opened up this podcast saying, you know, Canada's done a ton in the last decade on climate policy, including things like vehicle standards and coal phase out and electricity and low carbon fuel standards, and I could the list goes really, on and on.
Trevor Freeman 32:51
Yeah, and I will definitely pull apart some of that, I think. So my next question on this is, as I mentioned, this is a divisive topic, there are differing ideas around carbon pricing, whether we should have when how it should apply. And the nature and the beauty and the frustration of our open democratic society is that we could very well pick a different direction. In the near future, we may have a different government next time around, that government could choose to do something different. What are other options out there? That might still factor in the fact that there is a cost to emitting carbon, but be a different strategy than the existing carbon pricing? Or is there another strategy out there? Or is there not?
Nicholas Rivers 33:39
Yeah, for sure, you can reduce emissions without a carbon price. The carbon price is one way of reducing emissions and it does have its appealing parts. It's appealing because it allows people some flexibility to respond in the way that suits them best, you know, I can either pay the carbon price or I can reduce emissions and not pay the carbon price. And, and for that reason, it's seen as a relatively economically efficient approach to reducing emissions. But there are other ways I would say the two big other ways are regulatory approaches, and incentive based approaches. So let me go through what those look like. In a regulatory approach. We don't say, here's the financial penalty for carbon emissions. Now figure out what you want to do, like a carbon price, we say here's exactly what you should do or what you have to do. And so a regulatory example would be we've got lots of these nationally, and provincially. But a regulatory example might say you can't generate electricity with coal fired power anymore. Okay, that's a regulation or it might say, you have to cut your emissions by 10% this year and every year going forward as silver it. So certainly regulatory approaches can work, they often seem to be less flexible than a carbon price, because you don't give emitters the choice of how to respond to you imposing upon them. And so that requires the government to know quite a lot about you know, what's feasible and what's appropriate for different situations that it doesn't need to know, in the carbon price case, it didn't. So if I want to regulate you, Trevor, and to do it in a way, that's reasonable, I got to know a lot about your life to know like about what you're, you know, what possibilities you have to reduce your emissions, before I can choose some appropriate, you know, regulations to impose on you. So if I tell you, you have to use a heat pump, and then it turns out you live in a house that is not amenable to a heat pump. I've kind of made life difficult for you. Yeah. So regulations certainly have a lot of potential and, and they are being used in contexts where the kind of technology has become more clear. And I think they have a lot of, they can play a big role, they are playing a big role in driving down emissions. So again, in cases where technology is relatively clear, and there's less of that kind of work in that situation, this doesn't work in this other situation. Another approach to reduce emissions would be an incentive driven approach. So you could think of a carbon price as a disincentive, right, every time you produce emissions, I'm going to charge you. And an alternative approach would be anytime you do something that reduces emissions, I'm going to reward you. And so we have that happening here as well. So there's subsidies for heat pumps, for example, or electric vehicles. We're seeing subsidies for construction of electricity, electric, battery, battery, electric plants. So this is certainly part of that role as well. I feel like subsidies play a useful role in really nascent technologies, but driving decarbonisation with subsidies, it my view is going to be, we're not going to be able to afford the cost as a government, it's going to be too much for the government to try to replace everyone's heating system. With a subsidy. I think we're finding that out. In the case of the green Homes program, the government has pulled back here as a sight into fiscal cost.
Trevor Freeman 37:16
Exactly, yeah, it's popular because it helps, you know, those early adopters get that more expensive piece of technology. But to your point, we can't pay for every single one of those units, we can't provide that incentive. So it's creating more of an ecosystem that makes those make more sense.
Nicholas Rivers 37:31
Yeah.
Trevor Freeman 37:32
Okay. So that's great. Thanks very much, Nick, for enlightening us that we could probably spend an entire episode no question just talking about that. But I do want to push forward here on to some of these other questions. I want to dive into some specific sectors of our economy or some specific issues and understand from you the role of policy and help us drive the change that we often talk about on this show. So given the kind of where I work, and the nature of these podcasts, electricity is a big piece for us. So a constant theme on the show is how electricity is really one of the main tools that we have to decarbonize, we all know that a lot of aspects of our life that are not currently run by electricity, like our transportation and our heating, we are going to move to that fuel source as as our heating or transportation method. We're pretty fortunate in Ontario, that we have a really clean grid, it's a little bit over 90%, emissions free, meaning, you know, most of the generation of our electricity doesn't create GHG emissions. But there are other parts of the country that do rely more on fossil fuels. And to your earlier point, 90% is good, but it's not 100%, there is still that 10% that we need to decarbonize. So what are some of the tools in place now? Or something? Some things that are being considered that will help us move toward totally emissions free electricity generation in Canada?
Nicholas Rivers 39:02
All right, good question. So electricity is a big source of emissions on its own, producing about 10% of Canada's emissions. And as you point out, it is the central tool, which we're hoping to use to decarbonize all the other sectors. And that only works if the electricity industry is clean. And so I think you're right to point out, this is one of the first things we've got to tackle. Unfortunately, it is the big success story in Canada, emissions have been falling rapidly in electricity generation in Canada. And it's because of policy especially. One thing that we've done that's been really effective, and I mentioned it earlier, is an explicit policy to phase out coal fired power generation. coal generation produces about twice as much greenhouse gas per kilowatt hour generated as natural gas. It's very dirty. And so it's the first So you want to do what to tackle. And so Canada's federal government brought in a policy that said, by 2030, there shouldn't be any more coal generation on the grid. That's, it's a little late to the game. And that I mean, this is, I think, an important policy. But Ontario started phasing out coal in 2007. And I believe it was finished by phasing out coal in 2014. And that's why, to his credit, so clean right now, I learned as part of another project that Ontario had the biggest coal fired generation station in North America, which was one of the ones that was closed. As part of this, this coal phase out big local health improvements, as well as greenhouse gas improvements.
Trevor Freeman 40:37
Yeah, that's important to say to you, there are other ancillary benefits here to policies.
Nicholas Rivers 40:42
I think, even if coal didn't produce greenhouse gas emissions, it would be worth closing it. And in fact that that was the reason for Ontario's coal phase out was a policy by the Canadian Association of Physicians for the environment that was worried about local health impacts, and they are dire, we lose about 10 million people worldwide every year from air pollution. So it is a sector that's really worth tackling on its own even without greenhouse gas issues. But it is a big greenhouse gas emitter. And that's the first thing we want to do. And we're being successful, there are some coal fired generating stations left in Canada, but they are many fewer than they were a decade ago. And, they will be phased out by 2030. I think before 2030, in most cases. Aster coal, which is the dirtiest fuel, we've got to tackle natural gas. Natural gas is going to be the main source of emissions in our electricity sector, once the coal is gone, and we're not yet in a position to get rid of natural gas from electricity grids. Natural gas is super useful, because it can ramp up and down really quickly. You can, I mean, I'm not an Electricity System Operator, but my understanding is you can basically flick the up switch and electricity, the gas turbine will go up, you know, in terms of power output pretty much right away. And then you can press the down switch and go down right away. That is not at all the case, for example, with a nuclear power station.
Trevor Freeman 42:06
Exactly. Yep, exactly.
Nicholas Rivers 42:08
And so gas is useful. And it becomes more useful when you put a lot of renewables on the grid, because renewables do fluctuate quite quickly. And, you know, if the sun goes behind the cloud, for example, or if the wind hits a gust, and so you want to be able to respond to those fluctuations with some other source that can go up and down quite quickly. And so we're using that natural gas for that role right now, that backup role. And, and there's not a, there's not a straightforward substitution for all of that gas capacity right now. I think in the near term, what we want to do is stop using or dramatically slow down using natural gas, for providing bulk energy. So bulk energy, I mean, not this kind of quick response function that natural gas plays, but the kind of 24/7 kind of energy that that we also need in society, we should be trying to displace gas's role in providing that, and we can do it relatively cost effectively. Now, with wind and solar electricity or nuclear power in Ontario.
Trevor Freeman 43:11
Yeah, that's our base load is what we call that So absolutely, that that load that's always there, if we can make sure that load at least is completely carbon free, that's a big win for sure.
Nicholas Rivers 43:21
Exactly. And so I would say be looking for opportunities to get wind and solar, and maybe nuclear or geothermal to be providing that bulk energy and start retaining natural gas for uniquely that backup role. And we're starting to see regulations that are developed with that aim in mind. So Canada is currently consulting on what it calls its clean electricity regulation, which is designed to basically limit gas to a backup role by 2035. So it is a regulation that is intent on getting rid of gas as a provider of bulk energy, and limiting it to only providing, you know, a certain number of hours of year of backup capacity. So it's not saying you can't have gas on the grid, but it says you shouldn't be using gas to provide your main source of power. Gotcha. So that's a policy that's not implemented yet. It's being developed. It's being consulted on and we'll see what the final version of that policy looks like. But I think that's basically the right angle to be trying to limit gas to smaller contributions. And eventually, we're going to want to figure out another source of energy that can provide that kind of high frequency or high reliability backup power. And that's tricky to do. Because gas does play that unique role. And so it's not something we need to do right away, but it's something that we should be thinking about how to provide that in the future.
Trevor Freeman 44:55
Yeah, I mean, that raises a great point and kind of leads into my Next question really well. There are certainly things we need to develop, things we need to figure out moving forward on, not just the policy side, but the technology side. In order to address what we have to do for climate change, what role does policy government play in supporting research and development of accelerating these new technological advances that we need, you know, in short order here?
Nicholas Rivers 45:29
Another good question. Okay. Let me start by saying, for our short term climate goals, and our short term climate goal nationally, is to reduce emissions by 40%. By 2030, an ambitious goal, we have the technology we need.
Trevor Freeman 45:44
Yeah
Nicholas Rivers 45:45
The IEA, the International Energy Agency, the Canadian climate Institute, have done reports that try to figure out, you know, what we might or what pathway we might follow to get emissions down to 40, or 50%. And the common assessment, and I think it's reasonable, is that we have what we need to cut emissions by half. So we don't need to invent anything new, right away. But to cut emissions to zero. And this is like a mid century 2050 kind of goal, we probably do need to invent some new technologies. Some things like I just mentioned, like figuring out ways to produce firm power. So that kind of firming role that natural gas plays that's clean, would be an example, or figuring out ways to provide zero carbon, long distance transport, or zero carbon, concrete or cement, for example, yet another example. So we do have things to figure out, by all means. I would say the government can play a really big role here. And the government does play a big role here. Maybe we're thinking about how technology gets better. Before we start thinking about what the government can do. technology gets better in two big ways. One is, like before it's ready to be sold on the market. technology gets better through a deliberate research and development process. And so this is firms, or universities or national labs, working on, you know, new types of renewable energy. There's lots of work, for example, new types of solar cells happening right now, or new types of batteries. And this is like the deliberate efforts to invent new technologies for research and development. But the other big way that technology can improve is through the deployment process. And in fact, I think most of the big cost improvements for new technologies happen on the latter side. So it's like we've left after we've invented the basic technology, the scale up process, the economies of scale, deliver big cost gains, and performance improvements. And what we call learning by doing. It's like this process of just getting better at doing something by doing it lots of times. And solar is a really good example of that. You guys have probably talked about how solar on this podcast is so important, but solar has fallen and cost 1000 fold over the last 40 years. Yeah, 1000 fold that's crazy. And much of the cost decline, adults, especially over the last 15 years, has been learning by doing has been us just getting really good at squeezing out all the inefficiencies in the manufacturing process and, and very small improvements, but continuous improvements in the efficiency process of like actually harvesting the solar energy in the cell, such that the cost has continuously fallen by by, well, I don't know exactly the number per year, we talked about a learning curve, falling per number of technologies deployed. So every time solar installations double, we tend to see about a 15 to 20% cost decline.
Trevor Freeman 48:57
Gotcha.
Nicholas Rivers 48:58
And so I would say that that learning process is important as well. And the government can play a big role in both of those processes. Right? It certainly supports basic research and development. And this can be academic or industry research. Candidates don't do a great job on this front, we have quite low return development, investments compared to poor countries, and so are kind of free riding on on r&d investments compared to more innovative countries. And then the other big role for the government would be in helping to deploy new technologies and spur along that learning by doing process. And so that could be like providing niche markets for new technologies or through government procurement. You know, government could might say even though this new technology is a little more expensive, we can see it has a long term future and we're gonna we're gonna we're going to commit to buying it for government purposes, and government itself is a really big market, so that can be a big incentive for them. For cost declines, and it can just, you know, spur deployment. So we're seeing that with electric cars right now, the government is providing subsidies for people to buy electric cars. And one of the reasons that it does that is to help improve the technology.
Trevor Freeman 50:13
Yeah, and just for our listeners out there, you know, what, what Nicholas is describing is not unique to green technology to climate change technology. This is sort of a standard approach for technology development over the last, I don't know, centuries. Is that fair to say?
Nicholas Rivers 50:31
Yeah, the early ones, the reports that I've seen on learning by doing came from airplane manufacturing, right. So when people were learning to make wide body airplanes, researchers observed the same kind of cost improvements in that process, as we're currently observing in, for example, batteries, or electrolyzers, or solar panels.
Trevor Freeman 50:52
Yeah. And that's, that's encouraging, and that we kind of know as a society, how to help technology move along, if there's the political will. And then if ultimately the market decides, yeah, this is something we want, then that iterative process can happen to help get that cost down, as you said, learn by doing, figure out the installation cost, figuring out the manufacturing, supply chain issues, and really making a viable technology.
Nicholas Rivers 51:17
Yeah.
Trevor Freeman 51:18
Okay, so it's Trevor here, breaking into my own podcast. We're gonna pause there. As I said, at the beginning, this is really a long conversation. There's a lot to get through. And there's a lot more to that we talked about that Nicholas and I talked about, so we wanted to break it into two episodes. So this will be the end of Part One. Thanks for sticking with us and joining us today, and we look forward to having you back for part two that will be released at our next episode. So thanks very much, and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com
Heat pumps are proving as one method to combat climate change and decarbonize Canada—because they can operate at 300% efficiency (or greater!), while a standard furnace runs between 93–94%. In this episode of thinkenergy, Hydro Ottawa’s Shawn Carr, Manager, Customer Experience, chats his experience using a heat pump in his home. From the upfront costs to how it works and its role in reducing carbon emissions. Listen in for practical benefits of heat pumps and their future in our homes and businesses.
Related links
● Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/
● Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558
● Building Decarbonization Alliance heat pump report: https://buildingdecarbonization.ca/report/the-cool-way-to-heat-homesinstalling-heat-pumps-instead-of-central-air-conditioners-in-canada/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
HYDRO_16749_ThinkEnergy_Podcast_May_13_Audio_Final
Fri, May 10, 2024 12:03PM • 37:12
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
heat pump, electrification, heat, air conditioner, electrify, technology, energy, people, backup, costs, emissions, work, trevor, installed, cold climate, project, ottawa, gas furnace, temperature, ev
SPEAKERS
Shawn Carr, Trevor Freeman
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at thinkenergy@hydro ottawa.com Hi everyone, welcome back. On today's show, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to check back in with a previous guests. Just over a year ago, Dan, my predecessor in the host chair, interviewed Sean Carr hydro Ottawa's manager of customer experience about residential heat pumps, and in particular about his own experience with a heat pump installation for his own home. At the time, his heat pump was only about five months old. So now that he's been through another full winter with his heat pump, I thought it would be good to check back in and see how things are going. But before we do that, let me give a quick refresher on heat pumps. Now for those of you energy nerds or people in the sector, you may not need a refresher. But even those of you who aren't too sure what a heat pump is, are probably familiar with the technology. A heat pump is just a device that moves heat from one place to another. The most common example of this that you would be familiar with is a home air conditioner or a refrigerator. Both of those devices take heat, either from the air in your home or from the inside of your refrigerator and move it elsewhere. So over an air conditioner and moves the heat outside and for a refrigerator and moves the heat to the back of the refrigerator onto those coils that gather dust in you might every five years clean off. And they do this in order to make that space colder. A heat pump does exactly the same thing, except it takes heat from the outside air and moves it inside your home in order to make your home warmer. Heat pumps even look a lot like air conditioners, depending on the model. If you walk down the side of my house right now, you wouldn't even know that I have a heat pump. And not just an air conditioner because it looks exactly the same. Now you're probably thinking that's great, except when I want to heat my home, it's typically a cold day in the winter, and there is no heat in the air. But that's not exactly true, there is still some heat energy in the air. And thanks to the wonders of science, a heat pump can extract that heat from the air and move it into your home in the same way that when it's 35 degrees outside. And that's celsius for any nonmetric listeners out there. An air conditioner or heat pump can cool your home. I won't get into all the technical details here. But let's just say if you're not familiar with the ideal gas law, it is doing all the heavy lifting here. And I typically try to make this show not to engineering me but every once in a while I have to throw out a great formula like that. Okay, so now that we remember the basics about what a heat pump is, the next question is why are we talking about them again on the show? Well, if that's what you're thinking, I hate to say it, but this won't be the last time we talk about heat pumps either. In fact, this is the kind of thing that we'll probably revisit a number of times in the future. And that's because heat pumps are such an important technology for decarbonizing the way we heat our buildings, especially residential buildings, and even our water because yes, there are heat pump hot water heaters out there as well. Heat pumps don't use any fuel to create heat, they don't burn anything to create heat, they simply use electricity to move heat. And that makes him super clean. So there are no emissions at all from a heat pump itself, just the emissions that might have been created where that electricity was generated. And they are super efficient. You might have heard people talk about how furnaces are, you know, 93, or 94% efficient, or sometimes even 95, or 96% efficient. So that means for every unit of energy you put into that furnace, you get about, you know, 93 94, or whatever percent of that energy out as heat, you have to put more energy in, then you get out. Heat pumps, on the other hand, use a different scale, something called the coefficient of performance or COP. But it's essentially the same thing. And they can often run around 300% efficiency, and sometimes even higher. So for every unit of energy you're putting in, you get three units of energy out, which is awesome, you're getting more energy out than you're putting in that makes them really efficient. And if we're going to actually tackle the problems that lead to climate change, if we're actually going to decarbonize our society, and I really believe we are because I'm optimistic that way. Then almost every single one of us will eventually have a heat pump heating the space we live in, likely the space we work in as well and heating the water that we use as hot water. Okay, so now that we're back up to speed on heat pumps, let's check in with Shawn to hear how his journey has been going. Sean, welcome to the show.
Shawn Carr 05:12
Thanks, Trevor. It's great to be here.
Trevor Freeman 05:15
Okay, so let's get into it. Let's talk about your experience with a heat pump. Remind us again, what kind of heating system you had in your house and replaced and what did you put in?
Shawn Carr 05:25
Sure, Trevor. So I went from a high efficiency condensing gas furnace to a cold climate heat pump. And I elected to go with electric heat as my backup heat source. And a backup heat source is typically required in our cold climate. And the two most common backup heat options are typically a natural gas furnace, or an electric resistance coil that goes inside your ductwork. So I went with the electric electric resistance coil option.
Trevor Freeman 06:02
Okay, so you totally removed gas from your heating solutions in your house. And for context, can you remind us what is the size of your home and talk us through the economics of your heat pump? What did it cost you? And what remains? What did you qualify for.
Shawn Carr 06:19
So I live in rural Ottawa, our home is approximately 2100 square feet. It's a single storey bungalow, but does have a basement. It was built in 2008. And we were the first homeowners. And so it's relatively modern construction, given that it's only about 15 years old now. In regards to the project costs. So looking back at things, our total project costs for the cold climate heat pump, along with that electric backup system, and I elected to go with some additional controls and bells and whistles. And the project ended up costing us around $17,000, before taxes and rebates. And so maybe just to talk through the rebates a little bit I did receive a $5,000 rebate through enter cans greener Homes program. And I took advantage of a zero interest loan through the greener homes loan program as well, which allows me to pay back that project cost over a 10 year period. With zero interest. Unfortunately, the Enter Ken greener Homes program is no longer accepting applications, it's been pretty successful. But I was obviously fortunate enough to be able to take advantage of that program. So that ended up bringing our total project costs down for the heat pump and backup system to around $12,000. Before Tax, I can say that I do know a handful of people that have gone through and installed heat pumps recently. And I am seeing that the project costs are actually coming down, which is great. My father is actually having a heat pump installed today. In fact, so I'm looking forward to hearing how that project goes. But it's great to see that more installers and companies are now starting to talk to customers about heat pumps. And that's going to make the transition become more feasible than ever for more people. And I do think that being said, if we do want to get to a point where there is mass market adoption, we do need to get the heat pump and backup heat system costs down to a point where they are comparable to a furnace air conditioner replacement project, for example, because people still think in terms of sticker price. And so I do think there's still a bit of work to be done here. But as installers get more comfortable with these heat pumps and manufacturing starts to scale up, I do think we'll see prices come down further.
Trevor Freeman 08:52
Yeah, I mean, it's great to see that we're already seeing movement on that. But as you know, I mean, you and I both fall into that early adopter category and things tend to be more expensive and it will be great when we can get those costs down. So you've been living with your heat pump for over a year now kind of two two winters to cooling or heating season. Sorry. Let's talk about your initial thoughts. Let's start with comfort. How has your comfort been in your home?
Shawn Carr 09:20
Yeah, that's I mean, that's a great place to start. And you know, I will say that we've actually we've noticed some comfort improvements since putting in the cold climate heat pump particularly in our basement actually because we always found that the basement was several degrees colder than it was upstairs the thermostat in our house is on the main floor obviously but since we've gotten the the heat pump installed, we've noticed that the temperature difference between upstairs and downstairs it's actually much smaller. The Delta is much smaller now than it was prior to the heat pump when we were heating with a gas furnace and I think the main reason for that is heat pumps are really designed to run low and slow, they provide a greater volume of air over a longer period of time that that air is being delivered at a lower temperature. But as a result of that we found a more uniform temperature throughout the house just because of how the heat pump was running so much more frequently.
Trevor Freeman 10:22
Great. What about the experience of actually getting installed? I mean, once you made your decision to do this, how was it working with the contractors and getting it installed?
Shawn Carr 10:32
It actually went pretty smoothly. I mean, first of all, we used a contractor that had experience with heat pumps and came recommended. So I think, you know, my advice to anyone who's considering getting one is, you know, get a few quotes, make sure they have experience with heat pumps and electrification or, and are actually recommending this technology. In our case, the total install took about two and a half days. So that includes obviously all the electrical work and running new refrigerant lines to the outside of the house replacing taking the old furnace out and putting the air handler in and installing the backup heat, I think just in terms of space, like the construction footprint essentially was about the same as it was before. So it didn't require more space in our utility room. Basically, we just went from a gas furnace to having a big box that looked very much the same in the same location. And of course, the unit outside looks and sounds very much like a traditional air conditioner. And that's because a heat pump is simply an air conditioner with a reversing valve. So the install was straightforward. Yeah, I would recommend it to anyone.
Trevor Freeman 11:37
Great. Now,I mean, it's interesting, you talk about it being like an air conditioner. We often think about heat pumps as this technology of the future, this thing that we're all eventually going to have in our homes. Is it this futuristic piece of technology that's hard to operate? Or what is it like kind of, you know, setting it and letting it run?
Shawn Carr 11:54
Yeah, so the operation is really straightforward. I think the best way I would describe it is you basically, it's a set and forget system, I think the one thing that we did learn about having a heat pump is we don't adjust the temperature, like the thermostat temperature settings, as much as we did before, when we had a gas furnace, I used to get in the habit of dropping the temperature several degrees overnight, and then having the setpoint higher in the morning prior to getting up. But what we've found is, in particular, with the heat pump, it takes a lot longer for that heat pump, and it has to run a lot longer and a lot harder to reach that temperature setpoint. Again, so in the morning, so what we found is the most comfortable approach was really just to pick a temperature that we were comfortable with and just let it do its thing. The one other thing I think that I will say is I you know, we did have a smart thermostat before we elected to go with a heat pump. And as a result of going with the heat pump, I actually had to use a proprietary Fujitsu thermostat because I had a Fujitsu system. So I lost maybe a little bit of the flexibility that I had with the previous smart thermostat where I could just talk to Alexa or Google and have it adjust the temperature. That way I don't have that flexibility anymore, but because we've really sort of set the temperature and we just forget it and we leave the setpoint pretty much the same all the time, 24/7 I haven't necessarily missed having that technology. And it's not to say that with all heat pumps, you're going to have to use a proprietary thermostat, many of them are compatible with the smart thermostats that are out there that just happened to be the case with the system that I elected to go with.
Trevor Freeman 13:43
Okay, so speaking of temperature, you know, you and I both live in Ottawa, it gets pretty cold. How did it run through the past two winters that you've had it?
Shawn Carr 13:53
Yeah. So this winter, which I think was considered to be, you know, a milder winter on record here in the City of Ottawa, where we live, I'm very happy to report that my backup heat actually never came on. So I was able to just rely on the heat pump and the heat pump only as our only source of heating for our home this past winter. And so it did have a look, and I think we never did get below minus 20 Celsius here in Ottawa this winter, though, I think the coldest day was around, minus 19. But even at those low temperatures, I did not require my backup heat to supplement the heat for our home. I did go back and look at the previous winter, which I know was much colder and I fortunately put some controls on the heat pump that sort of tells me when's the heat pump running, when's the backup heat running, how much electricity is it using and so on. So I did go back and look at all that data and the prior winter. The backup heat only came on five days throughout the entire winter and those were days where the temperature overnight dropped somewhere between minus 17 Celsius and minus 33 Celsius. So those are really cold nights. And looking back, I think, on those days, the heat pump required the backup heat to kick in, and it would probably run for a couple of days, a couple of hours, sorry, on each of those five days. So you know, when the backup heat is running, my energy costs are obviously higher on those days. But I'm very, you know, pleased to report that over two winters, the cold climate heat pump overall has really done the job. And I haven't really had to rely on the backup heat that much.
Trevor Freeman 15:36
What about the noise levels of the unit? Is it a noisy unit to run? Or what does it sound like?
Shawn Carr 15:42
No, I mean, if you're used to having an air conditioner, I would say that the noise levels have been comparable to what they were with my previous air conditioning system. So I don't think you will notice the difference.
Trevor Freeman 15:54
Great. So if you could kind of sum it up, you know, what's the biggest benefit to putting in the heat pump?
Shawn Carr 16:00
What have you noticed? Well, for me, I think I'd say the biggest benefit is high efficiency, low emissions heating. So reducing emissions was my main driver for moving forward with this project. So the environmental benefits are, you know, really what motivated me to move to a heat pump in the first place. And what I'll say is I've also seen some energy savings as well. So it really has been a win-win project for me and I and I imagine that that will be the same for others who are, you know, on the fence as to whether this is the right technology for them or not.
Trevor Freeman 16:36
Yeah, so you talked about the upfront costs of the heat pump, but something that does, you know, concern some people or that people have questions about is, what is this going to cost me to run? So tell us about what your utility costs have been since switching from natural gas heating over to your heat pump?
Shawn Carr 16:56
Yeah, sure. So I'm a bit of a data nerd. So I've been obviously, you know, tracking all my monthly electricity use and gas use and have been keeping track of our overall energy costs. And so I did go back and looked at our energy costs for the two years prior to the heat pump install, and then looked at our energy costs for the 15 months after I put in the heat pump, which did include two winters, as you mentioned earlier, so my total electricity consumption increased by 62%, over that 15 month period, on average after installing the heat pump, but my gas consumption actually decreased by 65%. And my total energy costs actually dropped by 7%. So I've actually seen cost savings since proceeding with the project. And the other thing I'll just share with your listeners, is I elected to maintain my gas connection. And if I had not done that, the savings would have been obviously even greater.
Trevor Freeman 18:03
Yeah, that's great to hear. Any big lessons learned from going through this process and from your first year, first two years rather, of living with it?
Shawn Carr 18:12
Well, I think in our situation in my project, because I elected to go with electric resistance heating is my backup source, I'd say the one lesson learned is just make sure you understand the control strategy for the backup heat, make sure that your contractor explains to you how they've set that up and how that is, is intended to work. And the reason I say that is like I had picked up on the fact a few months after the project was done that there was backup heat that didn't seem to be operating quite right. And it turns out, I had the contractor come back and do a bit more commissioning. And we ended up putting a temperature sensor in the wrong location in the ductwork. And that had, that had caused some trouble, but it got, you got to identify quickly, it got resolved quickly. And I haven't had any issues ever since the contractor I worked with was very responsive, and they've been really great to work with. So that always helps.
Trevor Freeman 19:07
Great. So I mean, we've heard that this is generally a good experience for you. You're happy with where you're at now you're happy with your comfort and your costs. But we know that there isn't mass adoption of heat pumps yet, and we need to move faster if we're going to meet our climate targets. So what do you think is preventing that mass adoption today of heat pump technology?
Shawn Carr 19:30
Yeah, so I think there's a few things to consider. First thing I would probably say is just low familiarity in general, about heat pumps amongst both customers and contractors, but I think that's starting to get better. I think, you know, Heat pumps are getting a lot of attention right now and in the media and so on. And so I think that's certainly going to help create more awareness. But I think in general, you know, homeowners don't necessarily think about, you know, HVAC technology in general, I mean, we tend to be more aware of when a new car model comes out into the market. But that's not necessarily the same when we're talking about technologies like heat pumps. So that's the first thing I'd say just low familiarity still, in general, the other thing I'd say is just HVAC is not necessarily top of mind for most people, furnaces and air conditioners typically last 15 years. And you don't want to wait until a system failure to explore other options because the right option might not be there for you in an emergency replacement situation. So because we don't have to worry about our Hvac equipment very often, you know, infrequent purchasing and just very little time to make prudent HVAC purchasing decisions are barriers, because you might not be able to find the heat pump that you want, or the heat pump that's right for your home in stock if you don't plan ahead for that project. So that's the second thing. And then the third thing I'd still say is, you know, is cost and although basic single stage Heat pumps are becoming more comparable in costs to air conditioners, for example, cold climate, heat pumps still carry a bigger cost premium. And so without an incentive to offset that increase in costs, there's still going to be the risk of sticker shock for many people.
Trevor Freeman 21:20
Yeah. For those challenges for those things that are standing in the way of more Canadians and more people installing heat pumps, what do you think needs to happen? And either with technology or industry knowledge? Are there policy solutions that can be put in place in order to help more people overcome those challenges?
Shawn Carr 21:43
Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts on that, I guess, you know, for one, you know, what, what if every new air conditioner were a heat pump instead? I think that's something I think we should all think about. Canadians still install 10 times more air conditioners than heat pumps each year. So if we were able to transform the market, that way, we would really move the needle in terms of impact on energy bills and on overall emissions. So it would also stimulate the supply chain, right? If there was a market transformation strategy like that. So I think a national mandate would be great to see. And, actually, the building, decarbonisation Alliance has done some really great work in this area and recently published a paper called The cool way to heat pumps. And what that paper does is it analyzes the opportunity of installing heat pumps, instead of central air conditioners in Canada. So it's a really good read, I recommend it. But it really does talk about the market transformation strategy that could occur if every air conditioner was replaced with a heat pump instead. And then the other thing I just say is, and I think there's been a proven track record of this starting to work, especially over the last few years is more incentives for customers up front to put in a heat pump incentives for distributors and centers for manufacturers midstream, that could also shift the supply chain towards heat pumps as the recommended system of choice, I think would be, you know, a huge step in the right direction and certainly more access to financing to help those who want to make the right choice. I think those are all levers that will encourage adoption to accelerate. I mentioned earlier that Canada green homes grant is no longer accepting new applicants because of high demand and fully committed funding. But what that tells me is the program obviously worked and was a catalyst for more heat pumps to be installed in Canada. And that's part of driving the awareness and education for this technology, which is really I see it as a no regrets type technology to ramp up even faster.
Trevor Freeman 23:55
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, Shawn. And I think that's part of what we're trying to do here on the show, as you know, and have these conversations of what are those key strategies, technology solutions that are out there that are going to help us address climate change? And what are the policy levers that are going to help make those solutions easier to implement, both at the large scale and for individual homeowners and residents? So there's some great thoughts there. So I'm curious, Shawn, you've got your heat pump installed. Now what's next on your decarbonisation journey?
Shawn Carr 24:32
Yeah, so the next thing I think the next thing for me will definitely be addressing space heating so it's my gas water heater that I want to replace next with a hybrid heat pump water heater. And the reason I'm thinking about that now is that my water heater is currently nine years old. You know, water heaters typically lasted 10 to 12 years. So again, much like I did with the heat pump, I don't want to wait until the water heater fails to be able to decide, you know, to be put on the spot and sort of be forced to make a decision quickly. So I've already gone out and done a bunch of research on hot water heat pumps and received a few quotes. And so really now it's just a matter of when to make the decision to move forward with the project. But that will, that will be next. And then I'm very excited to get an EV. And that will be something that I spent a lot of time researching about, but an EV will certainly be next on my list. And then after both of those two things I've been giving some thought about increasing the amount of generation that I have on my own home, I do have six kilowatts of solar on my roof, but I do have room to add more. And so thinking about maybe adding some more solar and eventually combining it with some storage that'll be probably a little bit further away. I don't know if I can convince my wife to do all of these things right now. But for me, it'll be the water heater next, then EV. And then potentially some solar storage. And I'm a bit of a technology nerd. So given the all the smart home technology that's been evolving and emerging in the market to kind of manage all of these new electrification technologies and so on, I'm always sort of looking at kind of what what's the next piece of tech that might help me track my energy better understand my energy better my carbon footprint and so on. And so yeah, always playing around with different tools in that regard, too. So that's what's next for me.
Trevor Freeman 26:35
Perfect. Yeah, that's great to hear. And some great ideas out there. I'm curious kind of to wrap us up here today, for someone who's just starting out. So for our listeners are out there kind of thinking of electrifying their own lives. Where does someone start? Where do you think someone should really kind of take that first step?
Shawn Carr 26:54
Yeah, that's a great question. I think. So if you want to start down the journey, first of all, I What I'd say is it does really depend if you're motivated by emissions reductions, or energy cost savings. But regardless of what your motivations are, I think, you know, the process that I would probably recommend for most is the default approach is likely going to be when it dies, electrify. I think that just thinking pragmatically is, you know, equipment lasts a long time. And you've, you really have one opportunity to make the right decision. And so, you know, for anyone out there has an appliance that's dying, or their car is end of life, or their heating system is getting older, I think, you know, I would, you know, encourage everyone to think about when it dies, electrify all that to be said, I do recommend that it's really important to have a plan because it will allow you to do some advanced preparation so that you're ready for that first or next electrification project. And I think you know, that plan can come from having a home energy audit done, for example, but it also your plan should take into consideration your current electrical service size, because you can save a lot of money on your electrification journey, if you can avoid having to do a service upgrade. So if you have a 100 amp service, for example, which is the most common here in Ontario, there's still a lot you can do. From an electric electrification standpoint, with that service size, let's assume you now have a plan, you've determined you have some surface capacity on your panel, you're motivated to reduce emissions, I would probably tackle things in this order. First of all, because we live in a cold climate, I would start with some air sealing and maybe insulation upgrades. And the reason for that is these types of efficiency upgrades can enable other electrification measures to be sized appropriately. So for example, right sizing your heat pump as an example. You want to address your air sealing first because that could save you money on the upfront cost of putting in that heat pump. So now your home is reasonably efficient. You're trying to do decide what to do next, depending on whether you're following that when it dies electrify approach or not the order in terms of emissions impact would probably be for just most residential homeowners are, one an EV if you already have a car number two would definitely a be a heat pump and you know for Canadians depending on where you live in the country, probably a cold climate heat pump and then number three would be the the heat pump water heater I think those are the for me, what are the big three? And the emphasis that I'm placing on heat pump technologies both for space heating and in water heating is because you know, those two things account for about 60 to 80% of emissions due to our cold climate and the prevalent use of natural gas for heating purposes. So cold climate heat pump technology is really incredible. It's a game changer for emissions reductions. And as I mentioned earlier, it is a no regrets action that you can take home. And for most people, you're going to see bill savings as a result of that technology investment as well. Aside from that, if any of your large load appliances fail, or if you're considering a level two EV charger, for example, I would consider power efficient appliances that use less load on your panel, because this is going to reduce your electricity demand and leave more capacity for other electrification initiatives. It's also going to leave more room on the grid for your neighbors to electrify so when I mentioned earlier, although a heat pump water heater is next for me, one of the things I forgot to mention is in planning and getting quotes for that heat pump. I also worked with an electrician to do a load calculation and actually looked at my electricity load over the last two years because I wanted to understand in advance what electrification projects can I move forward with right and I confirmed through doing that load analysis that I do have the room in my panel to do both the heat pump water heater and eventually the level two EV charger, but I'm going to have to go with a smaller level two EV charger. So a 32 amp charger as opposed to a 40 amp charger just based on my low profile so far. But this comes back to it's really important to have an electrification plan and try to work with the service within the service capacity you have because ultimately, that can obviously save you save you more money up front. And the last thing I'd say is if you want the full electrification meal deal, we can talk about solar storage, smart panels and home automation. But that's probably best left for another podcast, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 32:04
Yeah, absolutely. And just for our listeners, there will be lots more of this to come. I think there's a lot of conversations we can have around everything from heat pump technology, to some of the smart technology coming out there, electrifying our homes and electrifying our lives is going to be a really big part of the future for a lot of us and trying to figure out that order. So it's great to hear some of your thoughts, Shawn, it's great to hear some of the journey that you've been on. And I really can't stress enough the importance, as you said, of starting to think about this, each of us in our own lives and trying to put that plan together so that when that furnace dies, or that you know, your your gas stove dies, and you need to replace it, you already know what you plan on doing. And maybe you've even got quotes or you've talked to that contractor and you have a plan and you're not left investing in a technology that's going to lock you into some emissions for the next, you know, 10 15 20 years. So great to hear your thoughts on that, and thanks a lot, Sean, for sharing your experience.
Shawn Carr 33:07
You're welcome.
Trevor Freeman 33:08
So, yeah, great. That kind of brings us to the end here. And as you know, from having been on the podcast before, we always wrap up with a series of questions here. And just a warning, since the last time you were on, I've actually kind of changed them up a little bit. So as long as you're ready, we'll dive right into those questions.
Shawn Carr 33:27
Yeah, sounds good, Trevor. Let's do it.
Trevor Freeman 33:29
Okay, so let's start by finding out what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Shawn Carr 33:36
Well, I'm not sure everyone should read it. But if you want to learn more about what we discussed today, and get really inspired by a realistic and feasible blueprint for fighting climate change, I am currently reading a book called electrify and optimist playbook for our clean energy future. And it's written by Saul Griffith who I just have a ton of respect for. I couldn't listen to Saul talk all day long. But it's a really good read.
Trevor Freeman 34:07
Great. Yeah, that is a fantastic book. So same question, but what about a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch?
Shawn Carr 34:15
Hmm, well, it's the NA, it's the NHL playoffs right now. So I'm not watching movies or TV shows. But the show that always left me wanting more was Game of Thrones. I love Game of Thrones.
Trevor Freeman 34:27
It's true. I mean, I wish we could get more that feels like an edge that won't be scratched. But hey, you never know. So if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world right now, where would you go?
Shawn Carr 34:41
Well, I know both my wife and I would be on the same page here and it would definitely be Africa. And I know you live there. So when we're ready to plan our trip, I'll be reaching out to you.
Trevor Freeman 34:53
Yeah, that's right. For our listeners, I did spend some time living in a couple of different parts of Africa. So happy to To share thoughts with you. Who is someone that you admire?
Shawn Carr 35:04
I'd say definitely that would be my parents. They are kind, compassionate, supportive, fun, and great people. And those are all just qualities that I admire and people in general. So I gotta say, my parents.
Trevor Freeman 35:24
And finally, Shawn, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?
Shawn Carr 35:30
Yeah, for me, it's definitely the energy, just the energy transition in general, because it's in my mind the pathway to a cleaner and more sustainable future for future generations. And so I think for me that that would be that's what really gets me up in the morning and gets me excited to come to work at hydro Ottawa every day. I also love all the innovation and technology advancements that the energy transition is driving as well. So yeah, those are the things that excite me about the energy sector right now.
Trevor Freeman 36:02
Yeah, I mean, knowing you well, and I'm the same way I know that you like all the sort of new toys and new bells and whistles and functionality that we're seeing come out. And I think we're both pretty excited about that. Shawn, it's been great chatting with you today. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your journey, sharing your experience and some of your insight into what residential homeowners might have in store for them as they tried to electrify their lives as well. So thanks very much.
Shawn Carr 36:30
No, thanks for having me. And I look forward to our next podcast.
Trevor Freeman 36:35
Absolutely. Yeah, there's no end of things that we can chat about. So we'll for sure have you on again.
Shawn Carr 36:40
Thanks, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 36:42
Thanks a lot, Shawn. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you can leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com
If electrification is the future of energy, the grid must become more efficient and more reliable. All across Canada, from province to province to right here at home in Ottawa. Jenna Gillis, Manager of Distribution System Integration at Hydro Ottawa, joins thinkenergy to discuss the process. Listen to episode 136, as she shares how Ottawa’s electricity grid is being updated with an Advanced Distribution Management System (ADMS) and what this means for you, your family, and residents throughout the region.
Related links
EV Everywhere Pilot Project: https://hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy/save-energy-homes/ev-everywhere
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Transcript Ep 136
Fri, Apr 26, 2024 9:47AM • 55:30
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
talked, grid modernization, grid, information, customers, devices, data, change, system, energy, asset, technology, call, great, operators, Ontario, working, dynamic, sense, distribution
SPEAKERS
Trevor Freeman, Jenna Gillis
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, I think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm pretty excited about today's topic, because we're going to be tackling something a little bit technical. And that's always fun. And today is going to be the first of what might end up being a few different episodes looking at this term called grid modernization. So today, we're going to do just a high-level overview. And then over the next few months, there'll be a couple of different episodes that will dive deeper into some of the specific aspects of grid modernization. So that term grid modernization can be a little bit daunting, but that's okay. Our goal here is to pull apart these topics to better understand what they are and how they impact all of us, you know, from those of us working in the energy sector, all the way to the end users of our product, if you will, our electricity customers. So, let's start by a bit of a primer. And I think it'll be helpful to start by talking about what the grid is. So, the electrical power grid has been called the world's largest machine, and the greatest engineering achievement of the 20th century. And for good reason, thinking of it as a machine is a great metaphor, because just like a car, or a sewing machine or a snow blower, there are a lot of parts. And if any one of those parts breaks or isn't working as it's supposed to be, that will impact the overall function of the machine. And the same is true for the grid. And the parts we're talking about here are the holes, the conductors or wires, the transformers, the switches, as well as the many different sensors and meters and communication devices that help the humans in the mix, monitor and control things. The difference though, is that you know, even for a complex machine, like a car, there are hundreds or maybe even a couple 1000 parts. But the electricity grid, even if we just look at let's say hydro Ottawa as territory, there are hundreds of 1000s of parts. And if we scale that up to Ontario's grid, we're talking about millions and millions of individual parts all working together, so that when you turn your lights on at home, electricity that was generated hundreds or 1000s of kilometers away, flows into your device and makes it work. That's pretty impressive. And if any one of those millions of parts breaks, there's an impact somewhere on the grid. If multiple things break, or if there's something really critical that isn't working. That's a major problem. And we've seen these major problems. We've seen large scale outages. And you know, we tend to focus on Ontario's grid on this show, because that's what we call home. But our grid is connected to our neighboring grids, who are connected to their neighbors to form really an interconnected North American grid across Canada and the United States. It really is a modern engineering marvel. And, you know, we didn't just get here by chance. This was kind of designed, you know, back at the early days of the 20th century in the early 1900s. Electrical pioneers met for the first time in what is now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss what it would look like to wire Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Our predecessor company, the Ottawa hydroelectric commission, connected to that provincial grid in 1916. So, what we know as the Ottawa grid and our service territory is over 100 years old today. Before that, across Ontario, reliable and continuous power in the region was kind of uncommon, and really dependent on whether someone in the area like a major business or a wealthy individual had invested in a localized electricity grid for their own needs. An interconnected provincial grid was designed and implemented with a goal of making electricity available to all Ontarians regardless of where they lived. And that kind of evolution of the grid in Ontario is similar to how it worked in other parts of North America and indeed the world. That's kind of how grids came about in the last century. Ontario's electricity grid, however, like all grids around the world, was really designed as a one-way street. So, the idea was to generate and then transmit, and then deliver that electricity to customers in that order. Back then, those pioneers really couldn't have imagined an electricity grid that would need to support two-way interactive things like small scale distributed renewable energy, you know, solar panels on roofs or electric vehicles, or energy storage, and a whole host of other things that, you know, want to do more than just draw power from the grid. As we've talked about the ongoing energy transition, and electrification, which is being driven by the pressures of climate change, is really driving a societal shift to bring the electricity system into the 21st century, and to make sure it's powered with clean, renewable electricity. So, our grid is starting to undergo this major transformation. And we won't be able to do that effectively or affordably by just using the same strategies and technologies and the same pace that we've been doing it at over the last 100 plus years. We need to take it to the next level; we need to rethink what we're doing to upgrade the grid and how we're doing it. And that's really what grid modernization is, it's not saying we don't have a modern grid, it's realizing that the grid of 10 years from now needs to be different in a much bigger way than it's different from how it was 10 years ago, that pace of change needs to happen quicker. And we need to bring on new functionality. It's not just you know, incremental change anymore. To help us make some sense of this. I'm really happy to have Jenna Gillis to chat with today. Jenna is the manager of distribution system integration at hydro Ottawa and is leading this major project that we're calling at a high-level grid modernization, or more specifically, our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. Jenna has been with hydro Ottawa for 16 years and has held a number of different roles on the operations and systems side of our business and really knows how our grid operates, how it's been operating, how the humans in the mix control things. And what's necessary to get us to that next stage that we've been talking about. Jenna, welcome to the show.
Jenna Gillis 07:04
Great. Thanks, Trevor. excited to talk to about this today.
Trevor Freeman 07:07
Yeah, I'm excited to. So, let's start at kind of a high level here and help our listeners understand how we currently operate our grid today. So, paint the picture for those of us who don't kind of get to see what happens behind the scenes. How do we control things today?
Jenna Gillis 07:23
Yeah, for sure. So, what people might not realize that we actually have people sitting in a control room centralized control room that looks at our system 24/7 365. So, we've got people monitoring the system all the time. And they look at the grid state, and they help direct field activities. They look at triaging outages as they become aware of them. And right now, we've got visibility to our control room to all of our substations, so all of our, you know, high level devices, but only down to about 8% of the feeders and not actually all the way out to our customer level. So, what does that mean? That means that we still rely on customers calling us or reporting online when they experience an outage. And all of that information does make its way back into our control room operators. And it goes into a system we call the outage management system, which helps us track and identify where we might be seeing issues out on the grid. So, the operators then use that information to help make decisions in terms of controlling the grid where they need to open up closed devices where they need to send field crews to restore power. So, on top of that, most of these activities are done by field crews. So, the system operators are in direct contact with our crews out in the field and providing direction on where to go, what devices to you know, have them physically open or close in the field. And we've got about 10% of our system right now that has remote capabilities. So that means that the operators can choose to open or close those devices, basically at a click of a button back in the office sitting at a computer. So, most of what we do today really is human based and does take an expert control operator to be monitoring the systems and making the decisions.
Trevor Freeman 09:08
Yeah, so we've got this like really complex system. It's, you know, state of the art system, if you will, that requires, like you say experts to keep track of what's happening to identify problems and make decisions based on the information they're getting. I just want to pick apart a few things you said there. So, when we're talking about our substations, just for our listeners, those are, you know, spots in our grid where we take higher voltage and step it down via transformers to a lower voltage, and then send that out on wires. That's what we call our feeders to our end customers. We know what's happening at that substation level, we can see whether the power is flowing or not whether switches are open or not. But once it gets past that we lose some of that visibility. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you
Jenna Gillis 09:57
Yeah, exactly. And so that's why I'm saying like we still rely on those notifications from our customers to let us know where they're seeing the problems. And, you know, it comes into a system that, that we can look at in conjunction with that visibility that we have on the substations to help us understand what's going on.
Trevor Freeman 10:12
Right. So obviously, it was such a, you know, an ordered and complex system, we're constantly in proving and renewing and upgrading. That's not new. That's not something that we're just starting. But as I've kind of hinted at in the opening there, we do need to change how we do things. So, before we look into where we're going, how do we renew and upgrade today, what's our current process.
Jenna Gillis 10:36
So, we do have a robust asset management framework. So that's basically a program that tells us and we look at all of our asset information. And that's whether that's poles, wires, transformers, switches, breakers, basically anything we have out on the distribution system, and we look at and prioritize where we need to invest and where we need to renew, replace, install, upgrade, all of that kind of stuff. So basically, as we do that, right now, we go through, and we'll incorporate new technologies, like these remote-control switches, like these sensors to bring information back into the control room to help us continue to evolve, meet our customer or system needs. So, this, this process has worked really well in the past in terms of keeping pace with technology and the requirements of the grid and our customers. But right now, we're seeing that it's we're falling behind, it's too slow to parallel installation of these new technological devices, with these asset renewals or installation. So, I mean, if you think about it, you know, a pull out with wires on it can last over 50 years, we can't wait until we're replacing those 50 years from now to go in and add these new technological advancements. So, what that means is now we're looking at a hybrid approach. So of course, we're going to continue to parallel activities where it makes sense with these asset renewals and upgrades and replacements. But we also need to strategically start placing these devices in areas that we're going to gain benefit from, and I'm talking about benefit from a control room operator perspective, benefit from a safety or field crew perspective, but also where we can provide value to our customers in terms of, you know, expediting restoration efforts, or, you know, providing more flexibility into the system to allow more customer connections, whether that be, you know, new residential developments, or whether that's, you know, the next solar panel or battery or something like that.
Trevor Freeman 12:25
Yeah, waiting for anybody who's familiar with kind of technological adoption curves and the pace of technological change, you talk about 50 years is the life of some of this equipment, the difference between technology and let's say, 1930, and 1980, wasn't a huge jump when it comes to poles and wires and transformers. But today, the difference of 50 years is night and day that we're not talking at all about the same technology. So, we can't wait for that whole cycle to go through before we're getting some of the tech in today that we need today in order to upgrade the system. So that's helpful to understand what that looks like. So, let's look forward then. And when we talk about where we want to go with grid modernization, how we want to change that, talk us through what we're trying to accomplish.
Jenna Gillis 13:14
Yeah, so I think I'm going to paint a little bit of a picture here in terms of how I think about grid modernization, because that's really helped me contextualize the way that we need to do things differently. So, I think of grid modernization, that program in entirety as like a stacked or a layer pyramid. At the bottom, you have field devices. So, you have equipment that's remotely controlled, or providing data in the field. So, you know, we're talking about sensors, or meters or switches, things like that. That's your foundation. On top of that, you then need a way to get that information back-to-back to systems back to people. So, then you need a communication infrastructure. So, you need to be able to take that data and funnel it where it needs to go, which is the third layer data management, you need to store, organize, create access to that field data. And then finally, the fourth triangle right at the very top is your applications and analytics later. So now you've got the data coming from the field, you're bringing it back, and you're managing it. So now what are you going to do with that information. So, these are the applications and analytics. So really the tools that digest that data and ultimately help make decisions. So that is what I envisioned kind of as the grid modernization pyramid. And you need each one of those layers to unlock the value from the layer below it. So, you can't really have one without the other all the way up to the top. So, what we need to start doing is thinking about these layers in a programmatic fashion. What we've done historically is looked at the requirements on a project by project or program by program basis. So basically, you would unlock each one of those layers for that specific project or program requirements. What we need to start doing now is that grid modernization is going to be the foundation for everything we do. So basically, every project, every program is going to require some level of information, data management, analytics, communication. So, the way we're looking at that is this is now becoming a foundation to everything we do. So, we need to be programmatic, roll this out so that regardless of what we're doing in the future, we have this foundation to rely on. And we're not building it piece by piece as we work through, you know, project life cycles. So really, what's different when I talk about grid modernization assets, and I'm talking about meters, or sensors or remote-control devices, is the integrated nature. So, we talked about that pyramid, you can't use these devices without any one of those layers, whereas you think of a traditional asset like a pole, you can, you know, load it up at a truck, and somebody can go and put it in the ground. So, it's really the true convergence. Now we're seeing what we, you know, our information technology, our IT systems, our operational technology, or OT systems, and then operations and asset management. So, we really need to be looking at these things together, as one, making sure we're all aligned to unlock each one of these layers.
Trevor Freeman 16:15
Yeah, it really highlights the, I guess, cascading impacts of projects and decisions and bringing on new technology across the entire distribution, business and how we do things and how we serve our customers. One is impacting the other in ways that hasn't really, truly been the case before. So that's a great way of painting it. Thanks, Jenna. Let's talk about kind of the why behind this, what are the benefits that we're going to see by taking this approach by taking this sort of accelerated upgraded process that we're doing? What are we going to gain from this?
Jenna Gillis 16:54
So, our overall grid modernization strategy is guided by five key objectives. So, I'll go through each one of those and give you kind of a high-level blurb on what it is that we're trying to achieve with grid modernization. So, the first one is enhancing reliability. So, the more monitoring devices you have in the field to understand the state of the grid, the more remote capabilities you have in order to operate. And you know, isolate and restore, the better reliability has the ultimate goal is moving towards an automated process, where you have all of the foundation of the equipment, the communication channels and the audit, the analytics to make decisions, you can get outages restored much more quickly. The next one is what we call flexibility. So adaptive grid flexibility. So, we want to make sure that the grid is dynamic to all of these changing energy demands that we're seeing come online, so things like heat pumps, or electric vehicles, or solar generation or battery, we want to provide more options for the connections and be able to have the grid respond dynamically to these changing conditions. Next one we have is fortified resilience and robust security. So, resilience is really about the ability to do to withstand disruptions. And I'm talking about that from, you know, a physical asset perspective, but maybe also a technology perspective, as well, we want to make sure that we have a good diversity, to be able to recover from disruptions. So, we know there will always be disruptions, as we've seen, kind of with the weather and the little last little while. And then as we get more and more connected, we need to make sure we're safeguarding assets from cyber threats, core to everything we do, we want to make sure that we're thinking about the customer. And so, we're looking towards strengthening customer engagement and empowerment. So, we've talked about, you know, getting more data back from the field and being able to unlock new ways of doing things, new tools, and providing some of this information back to the customers to help them be better informed about their energy uses, and their, low profile and what they want to do with their equipment. And then finally, sustainable decarbonization of renewable energy integration. So, we really want to look at reducing our carbon footprint by optimizing our planning and operations processes. So, we talked about it a little bit about automation, you know, that will reduce our need to roll trucks for crews to physically go out in the field and operate devices. And basically, everything above we talked about was, you know, being able to incorporate renewable energy sources. We want to make sure that we have the ability to bring these resources online and leverage them.
Trevor Freeman 19:34
Yeah, I mean, it really kind of, again, not to kind of reiterate the same things we're talking about, but it it's an all-encompassing type of project like everything we're trying to do everything we talk about on this show, when it comes to the energy transition, whether that's having a more robust, sustainable, smart grid on the utility side of things, to enabling the kinds of things our customers want to do in terms of adding in more DER's, more self-generation and storage, this project is kind of the foundation work. And that's going to support all of those efforts. And we're really only going to get so far without doing this kind of work, which stresses the importance of it.
Jenna Gillis 20:19
Yeah, it really does unlock so much more by having this level of information and visibility into our system that we want to achieve.
Trevor Freeman 20:27
Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's kind of dive in here you have this overall strategy that you and your team have outlined, which you're calling our grid modernization roadmap. Walk us through the main components of this and kind of the timelines that you've laid out? Is this a six months project? I say that kind of laughing, knowing is not a six-month project? How long is this going to take? And what are the major components of this.
Jenna Gillis 20:53
So hopefully, I've done some justification in terms of, you know, mapping out how complex this actually is to deploy. And so, our grid modernization roadmap is set out, basically a set of initiatives over the next 10 plus years. So, we've kind of, you know, got a good handle on the objectives we want to unlock over the next 10 years. And so, we've laid out, what do we need to do to unlock those, and what's the timing of that. So, we also need to understand that this is going to be dynamic and constantly evolving with, you know, technology or market drivers. So you know, this roadmap is only as good as it is today until you know, something changes tomorrow. And we recognize that this is going to have to be dynamic and evolving. So due to the complexity of it, we decided to basically bucket the program into six different component layers so that we can really get a sense of how one feeds into the next as I kind of talked a little bit about the pyramid before. So, the first one is physical infrastructure. Number two is sensing and measurement. The third is communication. Fourth is data management and analytics. Number five is control and optimization. And then finally, the last number six is business and regulatory. And so all of our initiatives fit underneath one of those six components.
Trevor Freeman 22:12
Okay, so let's dive in and pull them apart that I'd love to kind of talk more about each of those. And just for our listeners, we're going to keep this fairly high level, because we don't have time to get into super detail on all six. But the plan is actually to take future episodes and maybe pull apart some of these in more detail. So if you're super interested in what we're talking about today, don't worry, we'll dive into more detail. So, let's start at the top with physical infrastructure. What does that entail?
Jenna Gillis 22:40
So the physical infrastructure component really targets the challenges and opportunities posed by electric vehicles electrification, climate vulnerability on the grid itself. So, we talked a little bit about the fact that we need to start adapting, or continue to adapt our asset management practices to address these factors. So you know, what does that mean that that's things like I talked about before about increasing the rate that we add new technology or remote switches and sensors and things like that into the system. And I talked before about resiliency and flexibility. And a corporate part of this is, you know, incorporating an increased level of climate risk consideration into our, you know, acid assessments and our plan for renewal or replacement of those devices.
Trevor Freeman 23:28
Yeah, so this part of the strategy is really about, you know, the actual devices in the field that are going to be installed the new technology that we want to get out into the field on our grid. Let's pick apart that last piece a little bit, the climate vulnerability, how are we also trying to, you know, for lack of a better word, harden our grid, or make it a little more resilient to some of the weather events we're seeing?
Jenna Gillis 23:52
Yeah, so I think everybody's probably well aware that it's not about, you know, if we're going to see, you know, another large weather round, it's about, it's about when. We've always incorporated those types of things into our asset planning. But now, the frequency and severity of these things is becoming higher and higher. So, what we started looking at is, you know, reliability has always been a priority. But now we're shifting gears a little bit to resilience. So, I talked about that before. And that's more about withstanding and recovering quickly from the events, like I said, we know they're going to happen. So how are we going to make sure that we can recover as quickly as possible. So, with looking at that, we're looking at things like reviewing our design elements, like strengthening the poles that we install or doing strategic undergrounding and sections of overhead lines that we know have a high exposure, and like subsequent consequence of failure. So, we are building all of these strategies now as well into that asset management in the deployment of what we're putting out into the field.
Trevor Freeman 24:50
Great. And again, just for our listeners, you know, I want to talk more about what we're doing and what can be done on that climate resiliency piece. So there, you know, keep your eyes open for further episode on that down the road. Okay, so the next piece you talked about is sensing and measurement at a high level, talk us through what that what that means and how that contributes to overall grid effectiveness.
Jenna Gillis 25:13
Yeah, so sensing and measurement is more than just installing the physical devices that we kind of talked about in the previous component. And its devices like sensors to detect faults and report back and where there might be disturbances or outages on the system. And it's more than just meters on customer homes, it's about integrating that data back into our grid management systems. So, you know, our ultimate goal is to have real time access to all of the data from our customer meters, you know, that's over 350,000 meters. But to achieve this, we need to have a robust strategy to transfer that information store that information, at the right frequency, meaning in terms of, you know, how often do we get the information from these devices? And how often do we receive that information back in the office for all of the different use cases, and there’s, you know, there's hundreds of use cases for that information. So, this does represent a significant shift in the way that we're using our meters right now. Right now, when I talk about our customer meters, we take a reading from those once every 24 hours, with hourly level of granular data. So, it's basically once every 24 hours, we get 24 points of data. You know, and we're talking about what we want to do with grid modernization, we're looking at, you know, reading those meters, you know, once a minute with more information. So you can see there is a huge shift in the way that we've got kind of the infrastructure set up around those things.
Trevor Freeman 26:43
When you talk about those numbers, so 24 data points every or every day, changing to potentially reading every minute. Remember, we're multiplying that by 350,000. So that's a huge amount of data. And, you know, Jenna and I are working for hydro Ottawa here, one of the sorts of medium size utilities in the province of Ontario, we've got other utilities in the sector that have millions of customers. So, the importance of data and how we handle that, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute is certainly really high on the priority list. You know, some of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like what we call advanced metering infrastructure 2.0 or AMI 2.0. So, for that kind of in the industry that know what that is, that's maybe the next generation of meters, we might be talking about, how does that differ from the existing smart meters that exist all across Ontario? And that doesn't mean they exist everywhere in North America, but at least in Ontario, we've got kind of what we call AMI 1.0. What does AMI 2.0 look like? And how does that change things?
Jenna Gillis 27:50
Yeah, so there's kind of one key critical factor, AMI 1.0 was rolled out with, you know, one main purpose, that's billing. And so, our meters are set and our communication infrastructure is set up to again, report back on a frequency that makes sense for monthly billing. So, like I said, in other words, that's a once a day reading. And so that data is stored and available the next day, so not, not what we would call real time. So, this information is incredibly valuable. And we do use it for planning and supporting operational processes. But it doesn't allow us to respond real time to the conditions on the system, right down to that customer level. So, AMI 2.0, which is basically fate. You know, the next step from that first level of having, you know, meters that we can read remotely from the office is more just about than, like I mentioned before about installing sensors, it's not just changing those meters, we talked about the data requirement. And so, it's also a substantial upgrade to our communication infrastructure to get that higher volume of data back from the field. And what are we going to use that information for? Like, why is it important to have it real time as opposed to you know, the next day, it's because these meters will be able to give us things like a power off notification. So, we talked before about the fact that we do still rely right now on our customers calling in to let us know that they are out of power in the future with AMI 2.0. The intention will be that these meters will report right back into that outage management system. And we will know as soon as that meter sends a signal, say, Oh, I've lost power. The second piece of that is we'd want to know when your power comes back on. So, we're going through we're doing our restoration efforts, we want to make sure that we're picking everybody up. So we'd also be able to get a signal coming back on and say like yep, I just turned back on. So having this visibility right down to the customer level gives us so much more flexibility in terms of how we can respond to the system in real time. The other one it also opens a whole bunch of other future use cases such as you know, we talked about unlocking benefits for our customers as well but real time data but their energy uses and you know, providing additional tools or software to help them look at their consumption and overall save money on their bill. So, I'm then that's a future step. We're not there today, but the work is on the way to achieve that. And that, you know, those are some of our guiding principles around what we're doing for grid modernization. Yeah, really highlights how powerful it can be to know what's happening in real time at every, you know, end use of our entire grid, every customer knowing exactly where the issues are exactly when they get resolved or don't get results. So that's pretty powerful information. So, as we've kind of talked about, there's a natural tie over from having that sensing and metering equipment out in the field, gathering that data, and then getting that data back to our system office where we can use it. And that's where communication comes in. So, tell us about the critical role that our communication technology will play. So today, hydro has a communication network that we've spent our entire service to territory, and it uses a bunch of different technologies or different channels like cellular networks, radio, fiber phone lines, so we've got a diverse communication network that sees across our service territory. So again, kind of parallel in the way that we've been deploying some of these smart technologies. This strategy is very effective and accommodating the sensing and measurement control devices that we've been doing today. But again, we are talking about an increase in data we're talking about an increase of physical devices means that we need faster higher capacity methods to get that data from the field back into our systems. So again, this is all part of the strategy that we're focused on is making sure that we have this backbone communication infrastructure ready to connect these devices into. We don't have all the answers on that yet. But we know roughly where we need to get to. And again, it's part of this roadmap to make sure that we achieve those objectives.
Trevor Freeman 31:47
So, when we talk about communication and sending data over communication networks, increasingly, we all know, the challenges with cybersecurity. And people may be wondering, how are we going to protect all this data that's now flowing, that's giving real time information about you know, power use on our grid? How does cybersecurity fit in within this plan?
Jenna Gillis 32:08
So, we do have a robust cybersecurity standard that we follow, and a dedicated team who looks after these things for us. So, as we know, as the grid becomes more and more connected, cybersecurity becomes an even more crucial part of this. And it's a critical factor. And we you know, we mentioned it as one of the core objectives of the program is to, you know, maintain our security. So if you think about it in the past, when we went and you know, just installed a device that, you know, somebody could go in and control from a bucket truck, you didn't have to incorporate cybersecurity standards, you didn't have to, you know, have a device, go through the multiple levels of checks and validation that we have to do things today. So, it is another shift in the way that we operate, right is that and again, we need to keep pace on the technology standpoint of things, not just the physical device.
Trevor Freeman 32:58
Totally. Okay. So, there's definitely a bit of a flow here, because we talked about the data in the field, we talked about communication. Now we've got that data coming into hydronic, into our system office, we kind of move into that next piece, you talked about data management and analytics. How does all this data help us transform our grid? What do we do with this data once we get it?
Jenna Gillis 33:22
Yeah, so raw data coming from the field isn't overly valuable, what you need to do is you need to have an established framework for that information to allow the users to access that in real time. And so, when I'm talking users right now, you know I'm talking about it could be a number of different meanings. But today, we're really talking about our hydro Ottawa control room operators, I'm talking about, you know, our planning teams, our operations teams, and our maintenance systems information. So, you need to make sure that you have a framework to access that information in meaningful formats. So, you know, eventually, once we get a sense of what this information is, and we have a robust strategy around it, we could be providing that information to customers for their energy management systems and use cases like we talked about before. So, the other piece is as we collect more and more information on the condition and use of our assets, we can refine and enhance our decision-making planning operations, asset management becomes more and more formed. So, each one of these pieces of data is critical, but you need to make sure that you have a strong framework around it. So, you are gleaning the value from that information.
Trevor Freeman 34:24
Yeah, I mean, you're kind of talking about analytics here. And, you know, analytics is essentially combing through that vast amount of raw data and pulling out insights to make smart evidence-based decisions. I know I'm asking you to kind of look in a crystal ball here, but what kinds of insights are you expecting to get once we have access to all this data?
Jenna Gillis 34:45
Yeah, so really, the expectation is, the more information we have about how the grid operates and performs under a variety of different conditions. We'll be better able to plan and optimize that configuration when I talked before about you know that grid resiliency, so What is the best configuration of our of our network? Where do we have problems downstream that we maybe didn't see before. But now we see. So, we can start setting things up differently. It will help us enhance our ability to appropriately size and prioritize our investments and make better use of the existing assets that we have. So, in light of all these uncertainties we got about electric vehicles electrification and climate risks. The more information we have at our fingertips, the quicker we're going to be able to respond and adjust our strategies to keep up with those market drivers.
Trevor Freeman 35:34
Yeah, you. So, asset utilization is a really fascinating piece. And again, you know, this isn't the episode to dive into that. But just quickly, for our listeners, you know, you may be familiar that utility companies have to design to peak load. So, we need to be able to provide the highest amount of power that people need, whether it's a hot, sunny summer afternoon, and everyone's got their air conditioning on. But while we're not using that peak load, assets are sitting underutilized, we're not using the capacity we need. And the more of that capacity we can use, the better. And by putting in some of this technology. By gaining those insights, if we can do appropriate, switching or better planning to utilize our assets better, everybody wins, our grid is more effective, it's more economical. And I think we're all in better shape. So great to see where we're going with that. The next component you talked about is control and optimization. So, we talked about how we control the grid today and how it's kind of a manual process. We have, you know, really smart folks sitting in our system office who are making important decisions. How does that control evolve with this strategy?
Jenna Gillis 36:48
Yeah, so this layer, this control, and optimization is really about using all of that data to make informed decisions. So one, we're actually undergoing one big transformation, transformative project right now. And you referenced it earlier, it's our advanced distribution management system, or ADMS. So what this is, is it's really a complete modernization of the software tools used by our control room operators. So the individuals sitting at the desk watching the state of the grid 24/7 365. So to give you a sense of what they're using today to see that picture is the operators have to interact with at least five separate systems right now that are not integrated to gain all that full picture. So the intent of this project, and the main driver is to paint one pane of glass for the operators, it's amalgamating those five separate systems into one view, to give them better insights into the status system. So we're going to be calcinating, these five systems, but also then incorporating more of this field data that we've talked about collecting as well. So, some of the things that we kind of lock with the advanced distribution management system that we aren't capable of doing today is working towards implementing a fault location, isolation and service restoration scheme. So, if you're in the industry, that's well known as FLISAR. So what this is
Trevor Freeman 38:06
a fantastic name, by the way.
Jenna Gillis 38:08
Yeah, what this is really about is two way communication to and from these field devices and sensors to get a sense of where we might be seeing issues on the distribution system. So where we have faults, or where we have outages occurring, this system will then it's an analytic platform that takes all the information back and it can propose to the operators switching to restore as many customers as we can and isolate that faulted section with line. This future step of that is once we get comfortable, and we know the system and the analytics are working effectively is to allow the system to do it automatically. So instead of proposing switching to an operator who can make the decision and then perform the switching or roll a field crew, eventually we'd be able to do this automatically. So once the system is configured, and we've got all those remotely operable devices in the field, we would allow the system to make automatic decisions and restore and isolate the faulted sections
Trevor Freeman 39:03
So I mean, you're talking about analyzing data and making decisions automatically. It's kind of sounds like AI a little bit, which, of course, is a pretty, you know, buzzword these days in a lot of different sectors. Does, does AI come into play here in terms of making decisions and controlling things on the grid?
Jenna Gillis 39:22
Yeah, so I mean, we have a number of use cases that we're looking at right now with AI. And obviously, the more data we get, the more opportunities we have to leverage technology and AI. So some of the things we're looking at right now is things like predicting and forecasting demand levels or load levels that are on the distribution grid based on you know, a number of inputs, so like the grid status, what's the weather going to be? What did you know? What was the historical loading and things like that? And when you have multiple factors like that, that feed into, you know, what is your customers load going to be? You need something like AI to be able to digest all of that information and come up with recommendations another one This is just analyzing multiple sensors and control boards to help us predict failures. So the more information we're getting back on the assets, we can use AI to help us explore build models to help us identify exceptions in those large amounts of data. And in order to be able to flag potential failures, and allow us to intervene and course correct before, you know, they potentially cause an outage or something like that.
Trevor Freeman 40:23
Yeah, so that would be and correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong here and interpreting this wrong. That's like, taking a bunch of data points on our existing equipment is running, maybe you know that the temperature that we're seeing, or the loading on that equipment and how that relates to its normal operating load, and be able to say, we think based on the operating conditions, this piece of equipment is likely to fail faster than otherwise it would, is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah,
Jenna Gillis 40:49
Yeah, exactly. Or even in real time, this piece of equipment is going to overload. And so you need to take intervention and move load around door, something like that as well. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Trevor Freeman 40:58
Yeah. And all of that data. I mean, that's all things that we know how to do. But no human can possibly do that in real time with the amount of data coming in. And so that's where some of this advanced technology and AI, artificial intelligence really comes into play to help us pull that out of the massive sea of data that we're going to be getting. Okay. Okay, so the last component, you mentioned it, you know, on the surface, it might seem like a bit of an outlier business and regulatory, but I think it really ties it all together. And it's, again, one of those foundational pieces. So, you know, that the electricity sector is highly regulated, as our listeners probably know, it's extremely complex to navigate. It has been accused, in the past of, you know, not being very conducive to innovation and change. What are some of the priority areas that you've identified, whether that's, you know, dialogue with our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, or just, you know, regulations and policies, internal or external to our organization that that you think, need to come into play to make this modernization happen?
Jenna Gillis 42:06
Yeah, the whole objective of kind of the business and regulatory stream through good modernization is about building a holistic approach to build operational structures and processes to be able to address and respond to these dynamic market drivers. So, one of our big priorities right now is to raise awareness of this of this approach. And the fact that we're broadening our investment categories beyond what you know, I'd consider to be those traditional asset condition or reliability or end of life types of drivers to know, include and layer into it these system observability, these control points and this resiliency, which is a shift in terms of you know, how we we've justified or how a regulator has looked at the way that we do business in the past. But we also make sure we need to look internally. So, it's not just about looking externally and making sure that we're aligned with our regulator, but it's about looking at our internal business process to make sure that we're aligned to deliver the value that we've set out for the grid modernization objectives. So, we need to make sure that we have mechanisms to be able to measure our success, and feed that back into continuous improvement I talked about the roadmap is, is needing to be a dynamic, so we need to make sure that we're monitoring our progress towards the delivering of those chapters, and have ability to stop and pivot where we need to when we need to
Trevor Freeman 43:24
this kind of opened the door for new business models or new way of doing things? And are there like specific pilots that we're considering or specific initiatives?
Jenna Gillis 43:35
Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on in the electricity sector right now, one of the big kinds of hot topics right now is that there's indications that local distribution companies may need to in the future operate in a similar capacity to the way the Independent Electricity System Operator behaves. So, the ISO they control and dispatch the bulk systems. So, they look at they do forecasting on you know, the Ontario energy needs, and they throttle on and off generation and those types of things, the thought is, this is going to be needed at the local level. So, they look at you know, hydro, it was service territory level, we may need to look at dispatching generation and doing dynamic load management and things like that. And this is this is a holistic change to the way that we operate right now. And so, we need to be able to future proof ourselves to move down that path if that's where things go and dispatching energies resources. I said it kind of as you know, it's just it's one thing, but it's really, it's we talked about a little bit of a comprehensive analysis system to take in all of those inputs and understand forecasting and where things are going to be including an economic factor and all the different customer types, including, you know, the widespread adoption of electric vehicles or battery storage, so it can get to be quite a complex system.
Trevor Freeman 44:59
Yeah. it kind of sounds here, like you're talking about the distribution system operator model or DSO. And, and again, you know, like I've said a couple of times, I think there's a future conversation or future episode about that. But it's like you say, having the distributors, the local distribution companies, able to make decisions on how energy is used within our grid, and then that feeds up into how I saw was running the kind of broader provincial grid. So, I'll put a pin in that one. And we'll come back to that on a on a future episode.
Jenna Gillis 45:31
And, yeah, and so something that's important for us to understand too, is if we do go down the road of a DSO, we need to know where and what could impact our operations or where we could have those triggers or throttles on the distribution system. So right now, we're undertaking a pilot program as well, looking at EV charging, and we've called it EV everywhere. And I'm sure everybody's well aware that EVs are, you know, could be a huge dynamic load that show up on our system anywhere at any time whenever, whenever somebody wants to plug in their vehicle. And there's also talked about using EV batteries as an energy source to feed back into the system to help grid capacity constraints. While that still might be a long way off, there are still solutions that we want to manage to leverage the Chargers. And we've looked at, you know, instead of having everybody come in and come home from and you know, after work, plug in their EV and start charging at 5pm. And causing, you know, a new peak in our demand, looking to be able to stagger that charging and whether that's staggered at local community level, whether that's needing to stagger at, we talked about a substation level or whether we need to stagger that at a whole hydro Ottawa service, territory capacity. So, EV everywhere is really looking at the use of artificial intelligence to help us make those predictions about where and when and how long EV charging needs are required and being able to manage those devices. So that it reduces the impact on our distribution network. And we talked about increase our asset utilization. And we're hoping to be able to push that beyond just the pilot stage that we're in today.
Trevor Freeman 47:05
Yeah, and really, that's, you know, for, for the end user, for our customers, that's going to help us remove barriers to you getting that EV and being able to charge at home or where you live or where you work. So that we're not having to modify the grid drastically in order to allow that, we want to make that process as easy as possible. And this is testing out a strategy to do that. So, Jenna, that's super fantastic to hear about this roadmap that you have. And I mean, look, the listeners out there who know me know that I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm pretty excited about this stuff. But I think it's important to highlight some of the risks. So, it's a great roadmap, it's a great plan, what could trip us up what could get in the way of us being able to implement the strategy and rolling it out as you envisioned it?
Jenna Gillis 47:56
I think the first one is that this is, this is large, this is transformative. This touches multiple business areas and, and is, is driven by multiple outside influences. So, we need to make sure that we've got holistic change management strategies, we need to look at the pace of change that we're implementing, and not necessarily on the distribution grid, but also on our systems, our process our people. So, we need time to make sure that when we introduce a large change that we have some settle in, we have some time to adjust and correct and, you know, keep that dynamic continuous improvement process, as we move from one, it's going to be moved from one change to the next set at pretty rapid pace over the next few years. And with all that change, we need to have the right people, we need the right people, we need the right skill set. And some of these skills are things that we haven't done before. So, these are new responsibilities, new skill sets to the organization, and I'm going to put a little plug in here is that we're hiring right now. So, take a look at our careers page. And if I've, if I've painted an exciting picture, and you want to be a part of this, take a look. We're hiring some of those skill sets today. And this stuff is going to span multiple years, right? So, I feel like in the past, we kind of had you know, like, oh, well, that's a five year program. And then and then you're done no like this is this is going to be a continuous evolution. And these can span multi years. And I talked about it before, we need to be able to adapt and pivot to meet the requirements of technology and our customers. And we need to expect that and so we need to build the that ability to stay dynamic through these multiyear programs. To make sure that, you know, we maybe we need to change what our grid modernization objectives are halfway through, and that's okay, we can do that.
Trevor Freeman 49:36
Yeah, I think if there's one kind of common theme that comes up in these conversations that I get to have as part of, as part of the show is this is big change that we're talking about here. This is sort of fundamental change within not just one organization within an entire sector and we're all trying to figure out how we do it, we've all got different ideas, and we're working together. And I think your point about, we need the right people to do that we need people that are really passionate about this and really smart, and see the opportunity to create that change and realize, hey, you know, the utility is not a bad spot to do that it's kind of at the epicenter of a lot of what we're doing here when it comes to energy. So great thoughts. So, I mean, that's kind of the end of the grid modernization question. So I don't know if now we get into the easier part of the conversation or the harder part. By we,
Jenna Gillis 50:35
you're talking, you're talking to an engineer. So, when we talk personal, it's harder than the techniques of the technology.
Trevor Freeman 50:42
Awesome. Yeah, I can, I can definitely relate. So we always end our show with the same questions to our guests. And it just kind of helps us learn a little bit more about you. So as long as you're okay with it, we're going to dive right in.
Jenna Gillis 50:56
Yeah, let's do it.
Trevor Freeman 50:58
So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Jenna Gillis 51:01
So, I mean, I think I kind of already touched on it. And the fact that these were the more uncomfortable questions for me. One book that I read that I really enjoyed is as quiet the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Cain. She has a TED talk, too. So, if you want to kind of get a short snippet of what she's talking about, but really, it's about dynamics of how our world emphasizes extraversion, and basically everything that we set up and everything we do, and so we need to make sure that we're allowing space for our introverts.
Trevor Freeman 51:31
Great, I like that. What about a movie or a show?
Jenna Gillis 51:35
So, I'm not a big movie person. But I've got a TV show. It's pretty niche. It's called the Curse of Oak Island, I'm sure probably not very many people know what I'm talking about. But I followed the story from the beginning. So, the show started airing a long time ago. It's basically about a 200-year-old treasure hunting mystery in Nova Scotia, touches on archaeology and some potential connections right back to the Knights Templar. So, I've become pretty invested in it. It's one show
Trevor Freeman 52:04
is your next vacation to Halifax to go and check out the Oak Island and find this treasure?
Jenna Gillis 52:09
You know, I think it would be pretty cool maybe once like to go and see what they're doing and like the size and scale of what they're doing, but I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a whole trip to it.
Trevor Freeman 52:21
Good to know well on that note, what if somebody offered you a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world? Where would you go?
Jenna Gillis 52:29
Yeah, so not Nova Scotia. I'd love to be able to be out and see the northern lights. So somewhere like Iceland or Greenland, I think, seeing something totally different than what I'm used to here in here in Ottawa.
Trevor Freeman 52:44
very cool. Who is someone that you admire?
Jenna Gillis 52:47
So I feel like this is going to be really cliche given that Taylor Swift has recently released another album. But Taylor Swift, I think she's incredibly powerful and positive female influence and think she's a great role model. She's got strong big business strategy and authenticity. So, I think she's, she's a great role model for girls to be looking up to.
Trevor Freeman 53:12
Yeah, I'm, I'm currently I'm not ashamed to admit I'm currently going through her eras tour with my kids right now. We're watching it and kind of little bits and pieces here. And while we're watching, and I'm texting my nieces, because they're big. They're big Swifties. So that's a great example. And finally, and you're a great person to, to answer this question being kind of right out in the weeds of the energy change. What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?
Jenna Gillis 53:42
It's really about the pace of change. So I, you know, we talked about like, I've been with hydro water for about 16 years now. And I feel like we've always been saying it's coming. It's coming. It's right on the horizon, right. So it's here, we're seeing it, we've always been kind of forecasting and wondering when it was going to hit and it's here. So I love that we need to be innovative. I love that we need to rethink the way that we're doing things. And I'm super excited to start breaking down silos and building these cohesive strategies and working together to problem solve, because it's more important now than ever to, to build that integration with, you know, everybody on the team. So that's what I'm super excited about.
Trevor Freeman 54:18
Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. That's, that's what keeps me coming into work every day to I really like them. Jenna, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights with us on what hydro Ottawa is doing when it comes to grid modernization and just kind of sharing your experience and your expertise on how we're changing and getting ready for the future. I really appreciate it.
Jenna Gillis 54:39
Well, thanks, Trevor. Hopefully I did. I did some justice to what we're doing. And hopefully I've piqued some interest in diving deeper into some of these very specific initiatives that we've got underway.
Trevor Freeman 54:51
Absolutely. And don't be surprised if I reach back out to you to come and dive deeper on some of those as well. So we'll have you back on another time.
Jenna Gillis 54:58
Perfect. Thanks a lot, Trevor. Appreciate it.
Trevor Freeman 55:01
Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or our guests. You can always reach us at think energy at hydroottawa.com
Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and pivotal contributions shaping the energy landscape.
Related links
Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/
Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/
Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button
Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel
Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Trevor Freeman 0:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So, forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So, the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So, to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:23
Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.
Trevor Freeman 6:27
Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So, 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:49
Sure, thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.
Trevor Freeman 8:09
Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?
Teresa Sarkesian 8:40
Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.
Trevor Freeman 13:40
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?
Teresa Sarkesian 14:42
Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so, when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So, we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so, this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So, while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So, recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So, what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.
Trevor Freeman 18:41
Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?
Teresa Sarkesian 18:59
Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.
Trevor Freeman 20:31
Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So, let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So, from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're going to keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?
Teresa Sarkesian 21:38
That's a great question, Trevor. So, look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so, when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So, you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so, while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So, I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So, for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So, we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two-way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So, we need to have that temerity, that two-way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So, we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So, and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.
Trevor Freeman 26:07
Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long-term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?
Teresa Sarkesian 28:22
Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so, one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So, we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So, we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So, you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so, everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So, there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.
Trevor Freeman 32:02
Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So, I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So, for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five-year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.
Teresa Sarkesian 33:28
I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So, when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So, these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So, I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.
Trevor Freeman 34:21
Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So, there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So, we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back-office improvement?
Teresa Sarkesian 35:23
So, I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back-office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So, it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seem to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,
Trevor Freeman 37:28
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back-office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So, as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,
Teresa Sarkesian 38:42
Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So, I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so, it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So, when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So, I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So, one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So, it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So, there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So, you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So, these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.
Trevor Freeman 43:50
Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so, looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So. Yeah, great filling some of those out. So, I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So, you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So, advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government?
Teresa Sarkesian 45:32
So, I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So, one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So, we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So, we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.
Trevor Freeman 48:12
If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So, I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.
Teresa Sarkesian 49:00
Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So, you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point, you need to pull off the band aid said, yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So, we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so, I said, Okay, that's exciting. So, people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So, these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So, they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.
Trevor Freeman 52:54
Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?
Teresa Sarkesian 54:30
Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So, I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnership with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There are all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So, we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So, I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so, we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.
Trevor Freeman 58:27
Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?
Teresa Sarkesian 59:03
Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.
Trevor Freeman 59:11
It's my job.
Teresa Sarkesian 59:11
So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.
Trevor Freeman 1:00:26
Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:01:56
So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:19
Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:02:24
I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:52
Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:00
Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to
Trevor Freeman 1:03:09
Have you been there before?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:11
No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,
Trevor Freeman 1:03:16
Totally. Who is someone that you admire?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:18
for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.
That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:04
Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:23
Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:45
For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:57
Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.
Trevor Freeman 1:05:00
Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenerg@hydroottawa.com
Decarbonization, the energy transition, and combating the climate crisis are critical to the future of Canadians (and the planet). But we all have different priorities and opinions. In episode 134 of thinkenergy, David Coletto, founder and CEO of Abacus Data, unpacks some of the key issues Canadians face today. Abacus Data is a Canadian market and public opinion research agency, delivering insights to guide policy decisions, messaging, and how to foster collective dialogue about pressing challenges.
Related links
Abacus Data: https://abacusdata.ca/
David Coletto on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%93%8A-david-coletto-%F0%9F%8C%8E-b44a8622/
David Coletto on X: https://twitter.com/DavidColetto
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On this show, we often hear from energy experts, whether that's talking about a specific technology or up and coming solutions, or speaking with people that represent organizations who are playing a key role in the energy space. And while that's great, and we could obviously learn a lot from that. It's also important that as we're having those conversations we're doing so with a good understanding of the context around us. By now, I hope we are all very familiar with the concept of knowledge bubbles, because I'm passionate about decarbonisation about the energy transition. And especially because I work in the energy sector. I speak to and hear from a lot of like minded individuals, we share common drivers and use a lot of the same factors to make our decisions. For example, when my own personal heating system, you know, a standard gas furnace was nearing the end of its life about four years ago, switching to a less carbon intensive option was really important to me, and that factored heavily in my decision. Even when my furnace ended up dying in the middle of January, before I had a chance to do all my research and forcing me to make a really quick decision. But I know that not everyone thinks that way. And nor do they have the luxury to think that way. For most folks getting something affordable and quick that provides heat and as easy to use is the most important thing. fuel sources low on the list. And my first appearance on the show when our previous house, Dan asked me why I was interested in taking over his hosting duties. I noted that while I was encouraged that there does seem to be a general consensus around climate change being a real thing. Finally, at least for the majority of Canadians, we as a society are far from aligned on the exact strategies and tools that we need to deploy in order to do something about it. You know, nor is climate change, the only thing going on in the lives of everyday Canadians. There's an affordability problem, there's a housing crisis, we're worried about having an effective health care system. And seeing parts of that, you know, not work so well. The list of things that matter to Canadians is long. And we as a society are not homogeneous in our thinking. So that is why I think today's conversation is really important. David Coletto, holds a PhD in Political Science from the University of Calgary, and is the founder and chair and CEO of abacus data, a Canadian market and public opinion research agency. So David and Abacus have really made it their mission to help all of us better understand what Canadians are thinking and feeling about kind of everything. It's this insight that helps drive policy decisions, messaging, and ultimately how we can best have a collective conversation about our path forward. David, welcome to the show.
David Coletto 03:28
Hey, Trevor, thanks for having me. Great to be here.
Trevor Freeman 03:30
Great. Let's start with the basics. You've described yourself as infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic? First of all, that's a pretty fantastic start to a bio. But help me fill in the blanks here. How did you come to start abacus? How do you maintain that curiosity, passion and optimism?
David Coletto 03:48
So yeah, everyone asked this question like, when did you want to become a pollster? Like, was this something you always wanted to do? And it's funny because it is, I don't know the exact moment. I don't think there was like a light bulb that said, I want to do this. But I think over the course of high school, and then, you know, as I thought about what I wanted to do, after high school, I was really always interested in two things. One is politics. And then two was stats, I was that kid who like, I'm aging myself here a little bit, but I would be no, my parent, my parents, I grew up in Toronto would get the Toronto Star and I would, you know, every morning, open and up during the baseball season and look at the box scores and just be like devouring stats around baseball. And so I think as a pollster, I started in politics and an interest in politics. And, you know, a lot of what I do, looking at the political world, is basically the box scores for politics, you know, who's up who's down how Canadians feel about those political leaders. But that expanded beyond that, over the last 20 years, and I've come to just be someone who's just really interested in and curious about why people do what they do. Why do they think what they think? And I have this amazing job where I get to ask 1000s of Canadians hundreds of questions every week, from anything from politics, all the way to how they feel about work, how they make decisions, on, you know, where they eat out for dinner to stupid stuff that, you know, feels a little fluffy and not that important around, you know, what are they going to do on Valentine's Day? And that, I think, is what keeps me motivated. The optimist in me, I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if it's part genetic art, just, you know, outlook. But I'm always somebody that sometimes drives my team crazy, who will take a situation that's not always positive and say, okay, but what's the upside? And how do we? How do we get over that? And I think as somebody who is, especially over the last number of years, who has been kind of seeing people's reaction to the world around them in a very negative way, I think you almost have to be an optimist to be able to do that. Because it's been a really tough time. And most people's responses to questions these days are negative when it comes to pretty much everything that's going on in the world.
Trevor Freeman 06:15
That transition, I guess, or that following from politics to other issues. I'm curious how that is guided for you and for your organization? Do you follow where the conversations are going? Or do you have a bit of a strategy of, you know, we want to, we want to test this theory, or we want to test this hypothesis, talk us through how you decide what information you're going after?
David Coletto 06:36
I think we're always interested in just helping our clients. Anyone who is consuming our content was interested in why the world works, the way it does, is providing some insight into it. Right? Again, I think we have this, this really unique opportunity as a market research company to tell Canadians what other Canadians are thinking. And I think by understanding each other, I believe, we can find a way to get to whatever goal we want. For some, it's about putting yourself like research puts yourself into other people's shoes for a moment and understanding the world from their perspective, the perceptions that they have, which I think are so important to understanding why they do or think anything else. And being able to pinpoint the thing, or the perspective that comes to shape how other people see things. And so that's what I'm really fascinated by, like digging deeper, and trying to get at the why is the most fascinating and interesting part of my job. And the polls, you know, we always say we started, I started my career, looking at things from a political angle. But politics is only a very tiny portion of the things that we do. And I always like to remind, you know, every audience, whether it's a CEO, who is much more focused on like their profit and loss sheets and try to increase the revenue to the political leaders that I have the privilege of talking to, from time to time, is that every person, I think has three cells, they're at once a consumer, they're at once, especially if they're in the in the labor market, a worker but even if they're retired, or haven't yet entered that labor market, what the work that they did, is still important to who they are, or the work they want to do is important to who they are. And then lastly, they're also voters, or they can be voters. And so those three are interconnected. And that's why I think it's really valuable to see them as those three things and understanding how their views on politics informs the choices they make as consumers and and then how they are able to behave as consumers may also influence the choices they make for where they work, or the demand they have from their workplace, and and the political world as well.
Trevor Freeman 08:59
Yeah, totally. I think that's a great lens to put on things not just for you in the kind of let's call it data business, not for those in the sort of political business or political world, if you will, you know, we think about that and the energy side of things, obviously, our lens is through energy and how what people are doing with it and using it and the decisions are making, but that's not how people look at the decisions in their lives. They don't look at it through that lens. So being able to step outside your bubble, as I kind of mentioned, is really helpful and I think could help all of us no matter the sector we're in so great way to frame that.
David Coletto 09:33
Yeah, and I'm often that like, spark or stimulus that like a leader would bring in to a team and say, okay, David, give us the broad perspective on things because so often, when you like Trevor get to spend most of your time thinking about energy and, and and the policy and how do you deliver it and then all the shifts that might be happening, you're very much an expert, and you develop an expertise, but I am not really an expert. Hi kind of a mini expert on everything, but also bring this really broad perspective that I can, I can tie things together to say the other reason why people are resistant to buying, for example, if I'm an electric vehicle, it's not because they're fundamentally opposed to an energy transition, it's because they're just worried that they're not gonna able to charge it. So if the infrastructure is not there, how do we expect them to be comfortable doing that, or, you know, if you're talking to Albertans, who are the most resistant to moving away from oil and gas and embracing kind of an electrification of the world fundamental because most of their livelihoods are based on an industry that requires extracting oil from the ground and processing it? So when you start to understand the why, like, why do people get to these perspectives, or ultimately, their behaviors, it's often tied to something a little bit deeper. And that gives you, I think, a way to then figure out how to talk to them? How do you persuade them? And how do you most importantly, I think, relate to them? Totally.
Trevor Freeman 10:55
So on that note, you know, data, what you guys are doing, it's useful for decision making, it's useful for informing policy. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, where's that line between pushing a narrative versus understanding what narrative is out there? You know, obviously, you're hired to go get data to help inform different organizations or political entities making their decisions? Is there a line there between getting data and pushing data or pushing a narrative?
David Coletto 11:26
Yeah, I'm often, you know, either often criticized, if anything, because people believe that the polls that we put out in the public domain, for example, are actually influencing public opinion itself. And the evidence of that is minimal. I mean, I don't think there's millions of Canadians who could name abacus data? Or know what the heck we do? Or, or, or have you ever read one of our polls, but I don't, you know, deny that that research at any level of an organization or in the broader kind of conversation we have about society doesn't have an influence. And so when I say like, my vision for abacus is to be the most sought after influential polling firm in Canada. And what I mean by influential is not that we are at ourselves, influencing the direction of policy, but that we're that the quality of our research, and the insights we derive from that research, influences decisions in a positive way. Like, my fundamental goal is to help leaders make better decisions. And I think if your decisions are data driven, if they're evidence based, if they're rooted in understanding your audience, then you can make better, more confident decisions. And so that's what I mean, when I'd say I want to be influential, I don't care. You know, if everybody in the entire country knows who I am, and they want to hear what I have to say, my opinion matters very little. Now, my opinion about what I think the research I do matters, I think is useful. And every researcher brings a unique perspective to the research they do. And I like, I admit, I've got biases, I view the world a certain way. I'm an optimist. And so I'm constantly trying to find the upside of a lot of the stuff that we look at. But I don't believe that, you know, for research to be effective, it's not just, you know, let's go do a bunch of research and write it down on a piece of paper, and it was handed out. I think, and I think where Abacus has been really successful, is that being seen as an effective communicator of what that research means? And helping organizations leaders that whoever action it, do something with it that helps achieve their goals?
Trevor Freeman 13:43
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so obviously, one of the reasons I want you on here is to talk about energy, climate change, decarbonisation, et cetera. Before we dive too deep into some of the specific research you've done, let's talk kind of high level about some of the evolving trends that you may have seen over the last number of years when it comes to Canadians perspectives on those items, you know, help us understand where we've been going these last couple of years and where we are today?
David Coletto 14:12
Well, I think let's start with a step back and look at the broad kind of mindset that I think is important to understand then how people's views of these issues evolve over time. I think we have seen over the course of five years, a rapid shift in the mindset of the general public that has been informed and influenced by a whole ton of external events. Right. So pre pandemic, I think headed, you know, the end of 2019 going into 2020, the public in Canada, Ontario, and Ottawa was very much and I think I'm cautiously optimistic kind of friend, right? Things were okay. The economy was doing okay. Interest rates were very low relative to where they are today. And then the pandemic happened and you had this immediate flip in the mindset to one where most people at least in those first four months of the pandemic, the mindset was fear, didn't know what this meant, we were told to stay home, we didn't know how bad it was going to get, or whether we were gonna get infected, and what it meant for our family, our jobs, you name it. Soon after that, though, I think it became clear that okay, we can control it, we know a little bit more about this virus. And we entered into a kind of a roller coaster of fear and relief, fear and relief, as those case numbers went up and down. Coming out of the pandemic, though, and I think the defining mindset up today, which is really important to understand, to then understand why people will be resistant to certain public policy choices on climate or may not be ready to fully embrace the transition is that most Canadians right now, and I say most, I mean, like 80 to 90% of them, I believe, have a mindset that's very much tied to scarcity. And that is, that is a real shift. And what that means is that a lot of the things that people have come to expect that they can get in their lives are either more expensive, or harder to find or get, or they fear losing what they already have. And those are often tied to issues like housing, the general cost of living and health care. And so that mindset then causes us to view public policy decisions, broader economic forces, and our day to day lives through a very different lens than one where I described as there's plenty of everything, right. And having a good mindset means I can take risks, I can perhaps pay a little bit more, even if the perception is that I pay more, even if it's not true, in order to achieve other kinds of goals. But when I'm the perception of struggling everyday just to get the kind of life I want, or the one in three Canadians who feel like they've completely fallen behind, that is going to make it much harder for me to be persuaded to do things that feel like a big change or feel like they're going to disrupt my life more than it already is. Now, if we expand that, and then we say, okay, so how do we overlay that onto views around the broader issues around climate change, energy transition? I think what's clear in the long term trends is the vast majority, 90 plus percent of Canadians believe climate change is real and is caused by human behavior. overwhelming majorities believe that we, that's actually a crisis that we have to do something about. And in the shorter term, the last I would say, 12 to 18 months as a result of you and me, Trevor, I don't know about you I grew up in, you know, in Ontario, I never once in my entire life, stepped out on a June morning, and saw smoky skies, and you know, take my dog for a walk and bring her home and she smells like smoke. That was never part of my experience. My wife grew up in Alberta, much more likely to happen in Western Canada over time. So I think there's also become a realization that's firmed up that if we don't do something about this, that it's going to have not just theoretical consequences for the earth, but actual implications for my life, I won't be able to do certain things, my health might be compromised, the value of my property might be at risk, I may not be able to ensure, and so that I think has created far more desire or demand to see action. But what's muted it, at least in the short term, is that scarcity mindset where people have basically said, including young people, which is the most fascinating thing is, people often assume younger Canadians are more likely to, you know, say climate change is a priority for the first time in probably ever that I've tracked this, we now have younger Canadians, if you're under 30, you're the least likely to say climate change is one of your top three priorities. Interesting. And that's because other issues, like housing, like economic security, like the cost of living, have overtaken them. And so short term fear of short term scarcity, as at least for now push down fears about the longer term scarcity that climate change will create.
Trevor Freeman 19:07
As we see more of these, in a really defining event, it's interesting, you bring up you know, walking out your door and seeing that weird yellow hue of smoke that we've never experienced before. As we see more of these defining events, does that override that short term, kind of, I don't want to say short term thinking as a pejorative sense, but like override that, you know, looking to tomorrow and remind us that like there's something bigger here happening.
David Coletto 19:34
I think they could. I think every instance of it and you know, what's unfortunate, is that these events, whether they're wildfires or floods or other extreme weather events are now common. And they're happening everywhere and across the country. So from a purely like 'what's going to motivate and mobilize people to change their behavior and demand' action? Yeah, that's there's no doubt those are going to be a stimulant on that kind of behavior and action. But I still, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, depending on what you're asking about, or how you're framing it. These moments are not severe enough that they're, you know, that's not like the pandemic, which affected everybody, could affect everybody and forced us to all change everything about our lives. I don't think climate change has reached anywhere near that moment yet. And the other thing about it, and this is a defining feature of Canada right now, is that it's a politically divisive issue. There's no issue in Canada that divides the political spectrum, if you're on the conservative side, or the Liberals, the NDP side, is the issue of climate change. And it's not to say conservatives don't believe it's happening or don't fundamentally care about it. They're just not, they're just far, far less likely to put it as a priority. And so there's no consensus on what we do about it, what's the best policy choices, and how fast we need to go? And, and so we're still arguing about these things, which means, as a typical average person watching all of this happen, if the people in charge of making these decisions can't agree, well, then maybe it's not time for me to kind of line up and and do something about it, which I think is what part of the problem right now.
Trevor Freeman 21:23
Yeah, I think it's that divide between the number of people a percentage of the population that really firmly believes and sees this as a problem, like you said, and really knows we need to do something about it, compared to the various amps, which are probably evenly split on what that is, what do we do? It's hard to create policy, and it's hard to create ways forward, when we can agree on what we want to do. Something that I found really interesting, and this is going back a bit, I'm curious, in light of what we were just talking about, whether you see this as changed as there is this overwhelming idea that Canadians want to be seen as environmentally conscious, we want to be seen as leaders in that sustainability, renewable energy field. And I'm thinking about the findings you published back in 2020. So three and a half years ago, now, just the early days of the pandemic. And, you know, I can relate to the idea of Canadians wanting to be seen as virtuous leaders, I was, you know, fresh out of university and traveling the world and you want to put that shiny Canadian image forward. Tell us about that idea of how we want to be seen as, as the leaders and doing the right thing. Where does that come from? What drives that in, in our kind of national ethos? Or am I pulling something that's not there?
David Coletto 22:45
Yeah, no, I think it is there. And I think every country, by the way, there's a nationalism, a pride that, whether you were, you know, like, if you and I asked questions like that, in the UK, you know, Brits will want the UK to be seen as progressive on environmental issues are at least, you know, not seen as like, deeply polluting. And I think, part of the psyche of Canadians and I would say Canadians outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan, because I think those two provinces because of their reliance, and how important the oil and gas sector is, to those economies view this issue differently than, say, folks in Ontario, or Quebec, in particular, is that, you know, Canadians often have this like sense of superiority, certainly, compared to our American friends sound South totally. And the environment is one of those issues that we think we are better, or we should be better. And I shouldn't say we are better, but we believe we should be better. And I like that aspiration. Like, I think there's that desire for us, broadly speaking, to do our part, to be seen as leaders on this issue. But, I mean, I think there's limits to that perspective on then, okay, but are we all looking to, you know, change our behavior or, you know, adopt, you know, get rid of our furnace and put in a heat pump or, you know, change our gas powered vehicles to either a hybrid or an EV? No, we know, that's not happening as fast as it could happen. And so, it's one thing to believe it and want it and it's another thing to do it yourself. That being said, I do think from a public policy perspective, that we do want our leaders to be aspirational to, and to be, you know, looking to, to move the needle. But I think this is where your question about life was three and a half years ago, different from today, three and a half years ago, we didn't have the same mindset. So today if I ask people, What would you rather focus, reducing the cost of living making it easier for people to live their life day to day or relentlessly focusing on reducing emissions and moving to cars? I would say maybe two thirds would say, make my life easier first. And then I can get to the other thing. And so I think the more recent times have probably shifted that perception to some extent, but still want us to be leaders. But you know, they will want policymakers to coerce us into changing our behaviors.
Trevor Freeman 25:18
For sure. So with that in mind, with that context, moving a little bit forward in time, you're a little closer to today. Just last fall, September, you released findings that talked about Canadians' interest in energy efficient housing. So let's get a little bit more granular here. Talk about what Canadians feel about their own homes and what they're looking for.
David Coletto 25:40
Yeah, it was really my colleague, Edie Shepherd who did this research. And we were really interested in understanding particularly given all the conversations about housing affordability and the housing crisis. And you know, that some see as a real opportunity for us, as we build millions of new homes over the next number of years, we should probably be focused on making sure that they're as efficient as they can and, and, and help us tackle our need to reduce emissions and the climate crisis. And I would say that most Canadians 60% say that it's important that the home that they buy next is energy efficient. Very few say it's not important, there's a degree of difference, there's probably some we're gonna be like, I want to make sure it is and there'll be some that will likely say I wish it was but maybe if it costs me a few, you know, 10 grand more, I may not be able to afford it, but my intention is to see that it's there. And what's really interesting is when we asked people okay, you know, why would you want it? What are the upsides? Well, there is a perception that a more efficient owner will save the money. There is a broad understanding that it's going to future proof their home from future increases in the cost of energy. And there's the moral imperative that they think it's important to do it so that we can reduce our impact. Now, what are the barriers while they're the same? It's almost like the upside is the affordability. But the barrier is also affordability half who say, Okay, well, what would prevent you from doing it? Say, well, the upfront cost, the perception of the upfront cost is a big barrier to it. The fear that it may require more maintenance, like if you're putting solar panels on your roof, what does that mean? Do I have to maintain it? Is that going to be more costly? And then there's also a concern about just the availability of the actual energy efficient homes in the places that they live. So what it signals, though, to us is there's an intent, I think that almost everybody understands that it would be better if we all could live in a more energy efficient home. But there's these trade offs, these pushes and poles that I think are completely rational and natural for people to have, but are based on a lot of perceptions that may not be actually rooted into reality.
Trevor Freeman 28:03
Yeah. And it's great, great insight. I wonder, how do we take that? Or what impact does that have on decision making about future policy? And so I'm specifically thinking about, like the caning government's greener homes grant, which was a program to provide people with no interest loans, and in some cases, incentives to upgrade their home with clean technology, let's call it that which is oversubscribed, and they ran out of money. Does this inform policy of what comes next? Is it Is there something in there about helping people connect the dots between we'll lower that upfront cost for you, we'll have a program to lower the upfront cost, you get all those same benefits that you care about the affordability side that, you know, moral side of things to talk to us a little bit about how we connect the dots there.
David Coletto 28:52
Well I mean, the fact that was oversubscribed, as a proof that there's demand out there. That people are willing to do these things, if you lower the barriers to allow them to do it. And the cost is a big one. So and that's normal, and it's good public policy to try to incentivize the behavior you want to see and disincentivize the behavior you don't. So like, my advice to policymakers is, if you think this is important, and I'm no expert on what we have to do to achieve our emission targets and to get this issue under control. But home retrofits and increasing the efficiency of our homes, which I believe in what I've read is a big contributor. Right? Both commercial and residential properties are a big contributor to emissions, so if the incentive isn't an effective and efficient way of doing it, then we should continue to do it because it's clear people will do it. We also see for example, if I just take away from housing and residential energy use, and then I just use EVs as another example. And while there's some debate right now over whether EV demand is going to continue. But there's no doubt that provinces that have been more generous with their rebates for people who buy an electric vehicle, have seen a higher uptake in EVs go back to NBC, outright lead the country. And it's not like it's warmer in Quebec than it is in Ontario. There's a policy decision and choice that was made that has changed people's behavior. So I think we, you know, we, especially at a time when people are feeling that pinch and that squeeze, there's, there's benefit. Now, the problem also is, and this is bringing it back to the public policy lens a little bit as governments have been spending a ton of money. And so there's increased pressure on them to reduce their spending and try to manage their budget a little bit better. But, you know, priorities, I guess I'll say, and for many climate changes should be the, if not the most important thing, at least near the top.
Trevor Freeman 30:58
Yeah, and I guess, I mean, part of, we're kind of going back and forth between talking about climate change in the context of everything, and then, you know, dialing into specific things. If you focus in with people on, you know, within this issue of climate change, what's your barrier to getting a heat pump or an EV? And that affordability might be the upfront cost. But then if you zoom out and look at the more macro lens, you know, should the government be spending money on that, in particular, is that the most important thing for the government to spend money on? Maybe the answer changes, maybe, because then you're looking at it in the context of all those other issues that are also important to people.
David Coletto 31:34
Yeah. And just to drill down even further, in that study we did in September, we asked people in Canada, how interested they would be, and a very specific set of changes they could make to their home. Right things like, you know, high levels of insulation, to LED lighting, to even a geothermal heat pump, which I suspect most people don't really understand the science behind, or know how that would even work. But what we learned is that the vast majority of Canadians are at least open minded about making these changes to their home. So they're not like there's no like, deep, except for a small segment of the population's deep ideological or emotional negativity towards a sustainable behavior. It's just how do you get people over the barriers that exist? In them actually doing it. And cost is one simple understanding, accessibility of the service. And obviously, you know, an organization like hydro Ottawa has a role to play, and you do a big, important role in helping you know, consumers in the city. Think about their energy consumption as you try to help us conserve and be more energy efficient.
Trevor Freeman 32:45
Yeah, for sure, I kind of want to pull on that thread a little bit. So as you noted, like, you know, an organization like Hydro Ottawa, we're kind of on the front lines with our customers, we have that one to one relationship with them. Sometimes all that is just a bill in the mail, but they know that we are involved in energy. And, and we take it upon ourselves, we think it's important to help our customers understand energy, help them understand that, you know, part of the sector. We're going about that, and as we're talking about, especially the energy transition, what does your data mean? What can we learn from that in terms of how we engage and in the messages we bring to our customers? And I'm asking specifically thinking about an article you shared, just last week, which talked about whether carbon pricing as a policy is suffering from a failure to properly communicate. So, you know, that's kind of two pieces there, the Hydro Ottawa piece, as well as that, you know, maybe weaving all together for us.
David Coletto 33:47
Yeah, I mean, I could spend an hour talking to you about, you know, public understanding of, you know, science and climate change and carbon pricing, but the short version is, you have to assume that most people have little understanding of how things work. And I often use the analogy of, of a car and let's use an EV because that's on brand for this conversation, but like most people would know how to drive that EV but they have no understanding of how the energy is produced from the battery and it works to like turn the pistons I don't even know if there's distance in an EV. Right, there's probably not there's not that combustion engine, whatever. I don't need to know that. I just need to know how to drive it. Yeah. And so I think that the lesson there is, and the carbon tax or price is a good example of that. I don't believe that the federal government ever did the work it needed to do to explain to people why. And sometimes it's shocking how little people even understand basic principles like supply and demand that if you raise the price of something, people are going to be disincentivized from buying it or you doing that activity because it costs more. In the case of, you know, carbon price, that's the whole incentive activity that produces emissions, we want to make it more expensive, so people do less of it. But I've done focus groups, you know, years ago. But I don't think there's been a renaissance and understanding where people didn't basically understand why we raised the price of, of carbon or an emission like that. But then you've complicated it by giving that money back, which I think is a good goal, because it's really you're trying to signal a price and trying to get those who consume a lot of energy that produces emissions to reduce that as much as they can. That even in our research, most people who received a rebate, didn't know why they received it. And then when we asked them, okay, well, if this program was eliminated, and keep in mind, the fact is, most Canadians do receive at least close to or as much rebate as they would likely spend from the tax or the price. They thought they would still be better off if that just disappeared. Which tells me that that communication, and not assuming that people, you know, all watch the news or spend a lot of their own time actively looking at information. And even if they are, they may not get good information, because there's so much misinformation out there, that organizations actually have to spend a lot more time explaining and communicating. And look, I think one of the simplest and best things that Hydro Ottawa does as a consumer, as a customer of Hydro Ottawa is like when I can log on online, and you're giving me some insight into what is consuming the energy in my home, right? Like, you're like, you likely use your, you know, washing machine and your dishwasher. And, and that allows me at least to understand the implication of that choice. And if I want to reduce my energy consumption, I suspect most people want to do it because I just want to save money, then you're giving me the power through information to do it. So I think there's a lot of value in communication and just public education. It's really hard for me to say, but I think it is proven to be essential in getting people to change behaviors, away from things they've done for most of their lives.
Trevor Freeman 37:21
Yeah, it's great insight, it's something that we are constantly thinking of is, how do we relate this thing that's important and that everybody would agree is important to people's day to day lives, because they don't spend all the time thinking about it, they've got other things on their mind, other things that are important to focus on. So great insight. I want to zoom out one more time quickly here and talk about, you know, data that you published in 2022, about our energy system as a whole. So the federal government has said by 2035, all electricity production in Canada should be emissions free, on the whole Canadians completely agree. So you have data that says eight and 10 80% of Canadians believe a clean energy system would be more affordable and more secure than a fossil fuel system. I was pleasantly surprised to see that. I'll be honest. Tell us a little bit about that. And what else did you find in that study?
David Coletto 38:17
Well, I think this comes off of obviously, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia, which raised a lot of discussion, not just about the affordability of energy, because of how that conflict, you know, spiked natural gas prices and really hit Europe hard. But also a sense of energy or energy security. And so we wanted to understand, do people recognize and understand the risks actually involved, and the opportunities not just from a purely climate lens, but from an affordability security lens? And this is a really important conversation? Because I think it recognizes that not all people come at an issue with the same perspective, right? If you're somebody who doesn't believe that climate change is an absolute priority, well, then you've got to find another way to get them to behave or change their behavior, or at least agree on an outcome that might be for a different reason, but gets us to the same outcome either way. And I think what we learned from this research is that when you ask people, for example, you know, which do you think is more affordable, a clean energy system that would include hydro, wind, solar power and electric vehicles, or a fossil fuel energy system? So think oil, natural gas, coal, gas powered cars. Two of three, say I think that a clean energy system is going to be more affordable and an almost same number 68% Say, I also think it's going to be more secure. And now, that's not a consensus. I think it's getting close to one. There's still a third of people who say no, no, I think kind of those, those legacy fossil fuel driven systems are both more secure and more affordable. But I wish we had asked this question, you know, 10 years ago, but I suspect if I had, you would have probably seen a complete reversal. Right? Yeah, it would have been the opposite. And so we have seen, I think a change in people's perspective and global events have pushed us there. It just tells me that at this base level of people's understanding and belief that they think if we do everything right, these things will be better for me, and better for our country and better for the world. And that we just need to now deliver and execute on that, I think, as both policy and in the day to the lives that people are experiencing.
Trevor Freeman 40:38
Uh huh. So thinking about the change in technology and the changing landscape, we've talked about how the energy system is changing. We've talked about the impact of the pandemic, and the fact that you and I are, you know, sitting having this conversation over video chat, which is not that common, even four or five years ago. How is that progression and technology, changing the way that you gather data and understand where Canadians are at is disrupting your industry? Like it is other industries?
David Coletto 41:10
Yeah, in every way. I am too young to remember the golden years of market research and survey research. But there was a time when you know, and everybody has a phone, but not everybody answers that phone, when you could call households. And most people, almost everybody would pick up the phone. And then of those who picked up the phone, at least half or so would answer your survey. Now, you know, everybody has a phone, but almost nobody picks it up if they don't know who's calling. And that's forced the industry to respond. How people communicate, and how they don't communicate is tied to how then we can reach them and collect information from them. And so what we've seen in market research is almost an entire shift towards online research. I'll spare you the detailed nerd conversation about how we do that. But I would say most 90% of the research Abacus does, for example, is done online in some way. Whether it's recruiting, you know, the general population, when we do a poll of Canadians through a number of different panels that have recruited people, from time to time take surveys, or whether we're doing employee studies, or customer studies, using lists through email, or text messaging. But what's important is, despite all that change, I think our industry has been pretty good at being able to continue to engage people, response rates dropped, it's like people don't want to share their opinions as much as they used to. So that's a problem for us. And the most important thing as a researcher is to ensure that those who can take part in research are not fundamentally different from those who don't. And I don't think we're there yet. But it's something that- if there's anything that keeps me up at night about research, is that right? Is there going to be a moment when you know, Trevor, I don't know if you answer surveys when you're called or whatever. But if you do, and everybody who does shares the same kind of perspectives, socio economic backgrounds, demographics, and the people who don't answer surveys are completely different. And all those, then the surveys won't be representative, they won't represent the populations we're looking to understand. So yeah, technological change is changing everything. And the big, big thing I've been thinking about is what role does AI play in the market research industry? I think there's going to be a lot of benefits in terms of being able to synthesize large amounts of data, you know, being more efficient. But the impact that it has on how we collect information, I don't think is fully understood yet.
Trevor Freeman 43:42
Anything that's really surprised you and in your research, anything that's really jumped out that you've said, holy smokes, that's not what I expected.
David Coletto 43:49
I think it's - not really I am never I'm rarely surprised these days, because I'm, I'm so inundated and constantly kind of looking at data that you almost you're almost anticipate where things are going before they get there, though, what's interesting to me is that people aren't dumb. And then that's not to say that's surprising. Oh, my God, people aren't dumb. But I think sometimes there's an assumption that, you know, most people - I'm not saying most people are dumb, but they aren't paying attention. And there's a lot of people who don't pay attention to a lot of things. But I do think that most people are thinking about how they reconcile all of the things that are going on in the world and in their life. And I think climate change is now part of the conversation that's regularly there. And that to me is going to make it easier for us to achieve that thing you just said right, that that's the first step in getting people to change their behaviors and to embrace change is for them to recognize that a problem exists. And so step one has been there for a while. And I think that's going to accelerate step two, so I didn't answer your question. She does. I am rarely surprised by her about pretty much anything these days. But I am pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful some most people can be about things if you give them the chance to be.
Trevor Freeman 45:20
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's, I guess, aspirationally I like to think, you know, in my part of Hydro Ottawa, and what we do in engaging with customers, it's keeping that in mind and remembering we are trying to understand things in our customers lens, what matters to them. And like I said earlier. You know, my head is in this it's in, it's going through the lens of energy all the time. And that's not the case for everybody. So keeping in mind that yeah, people are diligent and paying attention and thinking about things that are important to them. And that just may be slightly different from the rest of us. So to kind of wrap it up here, we typically end with a series of questions that we asked most of our guests. So I'm going to fire the match here and see what you think. You're on the receiving end now of data gathering, I guess you can say. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
David Coletto 46:16
Oh, man, I read like eight books at once. And so remembering what I'm reading? Oh, that's a tough question for me.
Trevor Freeman 46:26
But what's a book that you've read in the last month that you think everyone should read down? I'll narrow it down for you?
David Coletto 46:31
I think, okay, it's not in the last month. I'll start by answering that, okay. So a book that I think helps explain so much of the world right now is called Prius or Pickup. It's by two American political scientists. But it's not like a nerdy academic thick book. And it basically argues that there are two primary worldviews, but they are fixed and fluid, and that so much of the political division in the United States, but so much of the consumer behavior we see, is affected by that worldview. So Prius and Pickup are like the choice between vehicles. And it changed my thinking around persuasion about communication, because it basically argues that most people, and I think it's true in Canada as it is in the US, or anywhere else around the world, start a journey with a particular base assumption about the world. And if you understand those assumptions, you then understand how to persuade them.
Trevor Freeman 47:36
Very cool. Is there a movie or a show that you've watched recently that you would recommend everyone take a look at?
David Coletto 47:43
Hmm well, I love Succession. It's been a while since it ended, but if you haven't seen it, it's brilliant TV. It makes you mad. You hate all the characters, but there's something really compelling about the writing. I really love that. And then my guilty pleasure is Curb Your Enthusiasm, which and it's in its final season right now, as we record this.
Trevor Freeman 48:09
Awesome. I can't agree more with both of those. If someone offered you a free round trip, anywhere in the world, where would you go?
David Coletto 48:18
I am a cyclist. And I usually travel with my bike. Road cyclist. So anywhere in the world, I would say, you know, I think because I have never been I would love to go to places like New Zealand or Australia and explore on two wheels, either of those places. And yeah, that's where I go.
Trevor Freeman 48:40
Cool. Who's someone that you admire?
David Coletto 48:43
Oh, man. Good question. Dude, why admire? So many? It's like, what do I - how do I frame this? These are hard questions. If you know what, recently I had someone who's like, actively involved in politics, in terms of like, public opinion, and being part of that conversation. I increasingly admire anybody, anybody, and I'm not going to pay any political support like partisan brushes or political parties, anyone who puts their name forward to run for political office these days. I admire that because it is a thankless and difficult job. And whether it's our Mayor or Premier or Prime Minister, you can disagree on the decisions they're making, you can dislike them as people if you want. But yeah, I think we should admire the fact that they have chosen to do something that is a pretty horrible job.
Trevor Freeman 49:38
Yeah, well said. And finally, is there anything kind of about the energy sector, its future that you're particularly excited about, or really keenly interested in?
David Coletto 49:50
I am an eternal optimist about human ingenuity. I'm not somebody who thinks like the end is coming and it's all going to go to hell. I actually think that we will find, and we have probably found the solutions that are going to help solve this problem. And so what excites me the most I think is, you know, I am excited for the day. I really am when I step on an airplane that is entirely powered by a non emitting fuel of some sort. I don't know when that's going to be, I don't know how long it's going to take. But I think if we achieve that, then I think we will have solved a lot of the other things and I I don't think it's that far away.
Trevor Freeman 50:29
I mean, as your bio says, infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic. I think that that sums it up pretty well. David Colletto, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I really appreciate the conversation too, Trevor. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com
The energy transition will define the sector for decades. And smart, passionate people are needed across the industry—leaders and innovative thinkers to chart the path forward. In his first episode hosting thinkenergy, Trevor Freeman gives the future workforce a voice, chatting with two engineering interns about what a career in energy means to them. Listen in as Alana Jones from Envari Energy Solutions and Priscilla Lacerda from Hydro Ottawa share their experiences.
Related links
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Alana Jones on LinkedIn: n/a
Priscilla Lacerda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/priscillalacerda/
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@ hydroottawa.com. Hi, everyone, this is Trevor Freeman here. This is my first official show without the training wheels. Just as a reminder, your regular host, Dan, is hanging up the lapel mic, actually, it's a big giant microphone - go bigger go home, I guess. And I'm stepping in to try and fill his shoes. The consistent thing though, is that the goal of the show continues to be to explore the fast changing world of energy through conversations with smart people doing cool things. Today on the show, we're going to talk about the energy workforce of the future. So this show is featured a number of conversations about the energy transition, which is arguably already underway. And this massive shift will really be the defining feature of this sector for at least the next couple of decades. Like any other massive project or societal change, in order to do it properly. We need great people. We need smart, passionate people in all areas of the sector to help us move forward into uncharted territory. A career in energy is really an exciting, dynamic pathway and a great way to contribute to meaningful change. But obviously, I'm a little biased, so I wanted to talk to two people who are earlier in their journey. It's great timing for this conversation because March is both National Engineering Month here in Canada, and we've just celebrated International Women's Day. Joining me today are two smart, young engineering interns working in the energy space. Alana Jones has had a number of roles with Hydro Ottawa, and currently works for Envari Energy Solutions, a Hydro Ottawa affiliate. Priscilla Lacerda joined Hydro Ottawa as an intern last year, Alana and Priscilla, welcome to the show.
Alana Jones 02:10
Hi, Trevor. Thanks for having us.
Priscilla Lacerda 02:12
Hi, Trevor. Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 02:14
Alright, let's get started by learning a little bit about you both. Priscilla, why don't we start with you? Could you tell us a little bit about where you went to school and what you studied and really how you ended up working in the energy sector?
Priscilla Lacerda 02:25
Sure. So I'm originally from Brazil and completed my studies there. I have a Bachelor in Electrical Engineering and an MBA Diploma in Business Management. While I was at the university, I tended to work in an affiliated company and spent around six and a half years there. Eventually, I decided to immigrate to Canada. And because I used to work in energy fields in my home country, I researched a lot about Hydro Ottawa and ended up being selected to work as an engineering intern last year.
Trevor Freeman 02:54
That's great. Well, I'm glad that we got you to join us from Brazil. And I think your experience in you know, both in Brazil's energy sector as well as here in Canada is going to be really beneficial both for you and for us. Alana, maybe the same question for you. Tell us a little bit about how you got started in the energy sector.
Alana Jones 03:12
Yeah, so I studied chemical engineering. I come from a large mining community. And that was the initial plan to work as a metallurgical engineer. However, once I graduated, I was a young 20 year old looking for a more exciting city than Sudbury Ontario had to offer. So I relocated to Ottawa. My brother was here, and I've always loved this city. I realized pretty quickly, however, that it was a lot harder to find a role in chemical engineering than it was in Sudbury. So I started working in restaurants and pubs to pay the bills. Plus, it was fun, the money was great. But fast forward five years, and I knew that I needed to actually use my degree and find a career. So I really liked Ottawa, I knew I wanted to stay here. I just didn't really know how to make that happen. So I contemplated Teachers College. And then one day on the radio, I heard about an exciting opportunity. It was a program that Algonquin College was running to get more women into the trades. They were calling on women with engineering science or math degrees to take their fast tracked electrical engineering technologists program. So the perks were wonderful. They offered free laptops, work boots, and what I found most appealing was an opportunity for a Co-Op with a local utility. So I ended up doing my four month Co-Op with Hydro One. And it was a great way to break into the industry and actually see the utility business and how it was run. And that same year I graduated from the program at Algonquin I got hired on as any it with Hydro Ottawa, so I feel like everything just worked out really well.
Trevor Freeman 04:41
Awesome. It's great to hear about the different kinds of unique pathways that people take to get to where they are on them. That's not unique to the energy sector but still interesting to hear. So let's dive a little bit deeper into what you guys do today. Alana will stick with you. Help us understand what it is you do in your role and you know, tie that back to how that relates to your engineering studies?
Alana Jones 05:02
Sure, my current role is with the Envari electrical team. My main focus is electric vehicle infrastructure projects and energy studies for buildings. As you know, there's a massive push for electrification of vehicles. And the government has mandated that all vehicles sold as of 2035 will be electric. So we see huge numbers of people wanting to get a head start on having that infrastructure available to support their future EV needs. We work with government agencies, many car dealerships, condo, apartment buildings, airports, even companies looking to convert their full fleets over. So my role is to perform the initial assessment on a building to determine if they have enough electric capacity to install any EV chargers at all, and what their options are as far as installation size and what that would look like with respect to their building layout. Our team helps provide guidance on the type of charger and system that would be most suitable for their needs. And there really are so many options, whether it's fast charging, or rapid charging, or if they want to allow public use or private so you get into a whole list of options that clients often need guidance on. And sometimes we actually see that buildings don't have enough capacity to support their electric vehicle infrastructure needs. And as one example, if the transformers are too small to support additional power loads, in that case, we can recommend a service upgrade to get them where they need to be for future electrification. Sometimes, that means designing a surface upgrade before charger installation to ensure that the building will have enough power to support the needs. And that means sizing the service accurately as well to reflect the current and projected needs. So these are expensive upgrades we're talking about. And they should last decades to come. The last thing you want to do as an engineer is install something too small, to find out 10 years down the road that the building needs more power, or if you oversize a service, it ends up just costing much more than it needs to. And I guess the last part of my role is the actual implementation of these chargers. So once any service upgrade is done if it's needed, the group can begin managing the installation, so sourcing the chargers and electrical contractor to do the work. And a big part of my role is making sure all parties are kept in the loop and the project remains on time and budget so that it can be as simple as possible for the client.
Trevor Freeman 07:09
Great. Thanks for that. We'll come back to that in a minute. But Priscilla, over to you, kind of the same question. Tell us about what you do specifically and kind of how that relates to your engineering experience.
Priscilla Lacerda 07:21
Yeah, so basically, I prepare and maintain a portfolio of business performance measures for our electricity distribution division. Alongside my supervisor, we identify opportunities to improve internal and external processes, and also analyze financial data. As you are well aware of, as a utility, we are regulated by the Ontario Energy Board. So it's imperative to keep our processes and analysis well documented. And that's the importance of my role and department and how it relates to my engineering studies.
Trevor Freeman 07:51
Great. I mean, those are just two examples that you guys both gave about, you know, the number of different roles within the utility sector. And it's a, you know, a pretty wide range of things that have to happen in order for us to deliver the service that we do and make sure that we're providing value for our customers. So thanks for that. Maybe kind of a follow up question on that. Anything that surprised you so far in your role here at Hydro Ottawa, and Envari, for you, Alana.
Alana Jones 08:20
Um, I would say the most surprising thing I've found is that everyone really wants you to succeed. I've been really, really lucky in my various roles, having managers and supervisors with a ton of experience to be able to coach me and support me in whatever ways they can. Our group at Envari is so diverse in their knowledge and backgrounds. So they offer, each person offers a specific skill set that they're willing to share with everyone. And anytime I need help or support, there's always someone willing to take that time out of their own busy schedule to support me. And I really love that. I mean, sometimes we spend more time with our co-workers than our own families. So I think it's important to have a nice working environment and to feel supported. And I've been lucky enough to have had that experience throughout my career.
Trevor Freeman 09:02
Great. That's awesome to hear. Priscilla, what about you?
Priscilla Lacerda 09:04
To be honest with you, in my specific case, because most of my experience was in my home country, one surprise that I had was that here in Canada, each province regulates its electrical system separately, and has their own model. While in Brazil, all the utilities are nationally regulated by one energy board.
Trevor Freeman 09:22
Yeah, it's certainly a complex landscape that I think, you know, folks outside of the sector don't always appreciate and you know, they don't need to worry about that, because we worry about it, but it is a complex regulatory sector. So Priscilla will stay with you. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into your role in what you do. You talked about your role in reporting on grid performance. So that's our outage and reliability reporting, as well as financial reporting related to grid operations. Tell us why that's important for a distribution company like Hydro Ottawa.
Priscilla Lacerda 09:55
As I mentioned before, Hydro Ottawa is regulated by the Ontario Energy Board, so it's crucial to maintain a reliable and cost effective grid. Our primary objective as a distribution company is with the customers. As we continually strive to improve performance for our customers, we need to maintain quality data to derive critical business insights and make informed business decisions.
Trevor Freeman 10:18
Great. So following up on that, do you see, you know, smart technology or AI or anything else coming in and, you know, changing the way that we report in the future?
Priscilla Lacerda 10:31
Yes, I see smart technologies and the blockchain is doing proof predictive analysis, and also anticipating potential issues and trends in the grid performance. Also, smart grids enable real time monitoring of various aspects of grid operations. And that's extremely beneficial as it will provide more up to date data.
Trevor Freeman 10:52
Great. Alana, we're gonna jump over to you here and kind of do the same thing, dig a little bit deeper into what your previous answer was. So you mentioned things like EV charging infrastructure for some of our customers that own large buildings. Are you seeing more of our customers look to what we might call, you know, emerging technologies to meet their own needs or the needs of their own customers or building occupants?
Alana Jones 11:15
Yeah, good question. We are seeing many, many people come to us to see what their options are for the implementation of EV chargers. If you are an EV driver looking to buy a condo in the city, having that infrastructure at home to charge is a must. And every year more and more people are driving EVs. So definitely, I would say building owners are looking to the future of electrification of vehicles and accommodating their building occupants. And we also see a huge push from dealerships to get chargers installed, whether they have requirements they need to meet, or whether they want to be the ones to get their hands on the latest EV models first. They are really interested in having that infrastructure already in place to accommodate current and future needs for it. There's also a goal, I think, not to be behind the eight ball when the time comes. And when everyone is rushing to get it done. So 2035 isn't that far away. And year after year, the increase in EV sales jumps, so getting your establishment ready for that, I think, is a must. And the last bit is funding. It's a huge early adoption incentive and government funding isn't going to be around forever. And as a company, we're able to secure a ton of funding for our clients. And it really drives down the cost of these easy installation projects.
Trevor Freeman 12:25
Geat. And you know, you can't really talk about EVs or electrification without you knowing, at least considering sustainability and climate goals. Do you find that your customers' goals when it comes to hitting a netzero target or just reducing emissions? Does that really impact the decisions they're making? And as a result, is that impacting your work?
Alana Jones 12:44
Yeah, absolutely. I believe the government mandate that all passenger vehicles being sold as of 2035, must be electric. And I think 20% by 2026, has had a huge impact on our clients, specifically dealerships. And some don't have any infrastructure in place at all, or even the capacity for the EV needs we're finding. So if service upgrades are required, that pushes the timeline of getting these EV chargers installed further and further away. We're also noticing municipalities looking to get fleets electrified, as well as looking to have larger service vehicles converted over to evey and everyone knows it's coming. And for some, it's been kept on the back burner. But like I said, 2035 really isn't that far away. So as a company, we are definitely growing to meet the demand of our customers. And so that's really a good sign of things moving in the right direction. And we know ultimately, it'll be better for the environment. Right? If all passenger vehicles and eventually working vehicles move to electric, that's not a secret. I think overcoming insecurities around electric vehicles is a big hurdle that many of us still have to get over. And I think that as battery technology improves, more affordable models are available. And the increase in public use chargers which we see happening rapidly, more and more people will get on board what I'll call the EV train.
Trevor Freeman 14:00
Right? Yeah, that's great to hear. Okay, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. So both of you are closer to the beginning of your career. I'm curious about how your experience so far has influenced how you see your own future path within the energy industry or elsewhere. Priscilla, why don't we start with you.
Priscilla Lacerda 14:18
Well, my current experience gives me a holistic view of the company, as it deals with different departments, which makes me think about pursuing a management career in the future.
Trevor Freeman 14:29
And do you see that - like, so you're in the distribution, part of the business now and specifically focused on reporting? Is that kind of where you have your eye or are you looking at other parts of the business?
Priscilla Lacerda 14:41
Well, working with distribution has always been rewarding for me. So I'd say I would like to continue to work with this. What makes me most fulfilled about the role that I'm currently playing is being able to help other departments identify possibilities for improvement in existing or new processes.
Trevor Freeman 14:59
Great, Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 15:02
Um, I believe it's a really exciting time to be an engineer working in the energy sector, there are new and emerging technologies. It's fast paced, and there is an abundance of work to be done. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Um, the industry isn't going anywhere. And like I said, it's growing rapidly. So having the experience to work alongside some really bright people on the bleeding edge of these technologies, is a really great opportunity. And hopefully, I'll have a career in this for years to come.
Trevor Freeman 15:30
Awesome. So I'm curious to hear from both of you. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing the energy industry right now? And Alana will let you kick that off?
Alana Jones 15:41
Yeah. I think one major challenge is having the infrastructure to support the electrification of buildings, homes, and all vehicles is a huge endeavor. And the grid needs to drastically increase in size and be ready to accommodate these future loads. And the pathway to net zero is a huge undertaking, and it will be challenging to achieve that, I believe. That's not to say it's not doable, but it's definitely a challenge and a massive investment. That being said, it's important to note that electrification changes are not happening all at once. Not everyone is switching to EV at the same time, or getting their buildings or homes all to net zero all at once. So I do believe that the Canadian grid is capable of growing gradually alongside those changes to be able to adapt.
Trevor Freeman 16:27
Great, Priscilla, what do you think?
Priscilla Lacerda 16:29
Well, one of the challenges the energy sector is facing right now is the urgency to meet the decarbonisation, and net zero targets. And this is driving significant electrification efforts across various sectors, as Alana just said, like transportation and construction, for example, because construction right now is changing, like the old heating and cooling gas systems for electric appliances. So being a key player in this scenario, Hydro Ottawa is working alongside partners, customers and suppliers to achieve our net zero goal for 2030. And also, we are committed to supporting our customers in their efforts to meet their own net zero targets amplifying our collective impact on sustainability.
Trevor Freeman 17:14
Yeah, great. I think you've both identified some pretty key challenges. And luckily, we've got great people like the two of you helping us get there. So I'm wondering if you guys have any advice that you would give to, you know, current students or people that are considering an engineering career or another career in the energy sector that you can pass on based on your experience? Priscilla, you can start us off.
Priscilla Lacerda 17:38
I would say seek opportunities, like internships or Co Op programs during your engineering studies. Because even though theoretical knowledge is essential. It's also important to know how to apply what you're learning in real life situations.
Trevor Freeman 17:54
Yeah, that's a great point, Alana, any great advice?
Alana Jones 17:57
Yeah, I agree, I would say absolutely get involved. It's a great opportunity to contribute to climate change solutions. I believe it's a stable industry with a ton of opportunities to learn about the latest and greatest technologies. As I mentioned before, I come from a mining community where it's not always stable. It's a very boom or bust industry. So when it's good, it's really good. But there are times the price of minerals drop and mines close, jobs are lost and communities become ghost towns. It's just not the same as it is in the energy sector. There is and will be for the foreseeable future and abundance of work and I believe in the need for skilled workers. So when choosing a path to take your career, I think the energy sector is one that I would highly recommend.
Trevor Freeman 18:40
Great, thanks for that. That's great to hear. Could you each talk about a misconception about the energy industry or your work that you think people might have that you'd like to, you know, let them know about?
Alana Jones 18:53
Sure. And a misconception around my work with electric vehicles and I see this a lot. I believe there's a lot of insecurities around EVs, so battery ranges, one especially in colder climates, like Ottawa. Battery technology, though, is constantly improving, and there are ways to mitigate the effects of the cold weather on your battery. Things like preconditioning your battery by turning it on, turning on the heat for even 10 minutes before driving. Some vehicles even offer a winter weather feature that helps keep the battery in an ideal temperature zone. Another aspect is that five years ago, the landscape looked much different when getting from point A to point B. Now public EV infrastructures are everywhere. When you look at the EV charging maps and cities. They're just covered and it's only getting better. The government just announced a $1.2 billion investment to build 84,000 chargers across the country by 2029. So it's likely you won't be able to go anywhere without seeing a charger. And I think as more and more chargers are put on the map people will be more accepting of the technology or realize that it's not going anywhere and realize that it is a huge opportunity for us individuals to reduce our carbon footprint. Lastly, I think it's difficult for people to commit to the initial investment into electric vehicles. I think for a lot of people, they see the price tag on an EV . And that prevents them from taking that leap, I guess. But initial investment and cost of ownership are two different things. My hope is that the government incentives continue, just to help the average Canadian consumer be able to afford an EV and make that initial shift, because studies show that operating costs are significantly lower than that of a gasoline fueled counterpart.
Trevor Freeman 20:32
Yeah, that's great. I think it's a really important kind of misconception to talk about. And I'm hopeful that we're starting to see a shift in that. And obviously, the, you know, great work that you guys are doing an inquiry is helping alleviate some of those concerns and challenges. Priscilla, what about you, what's a misconception that you want to address?
Priscilla Lacerda 20:51
So I would like to raise awareness to a common misconception that electrical engineering is only for men. I read on the internet that women represent less than 20% of the engineering professionals in Canada. And I think we need to encourage more women to be a part of the energy industry and let them know that they are capable of succeeding in this field.
Trevor Freeman 21:12
Yeah, that's a great one as well. And and I agree, having gone through kind of engineering school and obviously working in this industry, what I will say is, it's really refreshing and encouraging to have, you know, really smart, passionate people like the two of you, kind of coming up in our organizations and, you know, hopefully eventually taking on more and more roles and leadership roles. So great to have you guys here today and talk about it. So thanks very much for the conversation. So far, I really appreciate hearing more about your experiences, how you got to where you are and what you're kind of looking at moving forward. To wrap up our conversation, there's a bit of a tradition on the show to ask some rapid fire questions. For the regular listeners out there. Just be warned, I may have changed them up a little bit. So they might be a little bit different from what you're used to hearing. But it's fresh for the two of you. So why don't we dive right in you both ready for the rapid fire portion of the interview?
Alana Jones 22:10
Ready?
Priscilla Lacerda 22:11
Yes.
Trevor Freeman 22:12
Awesome. Okay, so we're gonna start with Alana. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Alana Jones 22:20
1984 by George Orwell. Have a read if you have not already. You'll see its relevance throughout history and even present day and I find that very fascinating.
Trevor Freeman 22:31
Yeah, that's a good one. Priscilla, what about you?
Priscilla Lacerda 22:34
Well, for me, it's The Little Prince, because it seems like a simple story at first, but then it's actually very philosophical. And every time that I read, it makes me reflect a lot.
Trevor Freeman 22:45
Yeah, those are I mean, I'm not really supposed to provide commentary on the rapid fire part, but I'm going to anyway, those are both great answers. And great books like ones you can read over and over again and kind of get a little bit more out of it each time you read. So awesome answers to that. So same question, but for a movie or a show. What's a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch, Priscilla?
Priscilla Lacerda 23:08
So, a movie that I like very much is The Pursuit of Happiness, because it's about perseverance in adverse life situations.
Trevor Freeman 23:18
Great Alana. What about you?
Alana Jones 23:20
The Shawshank Redemption, I love a good comeback story.
Trevor Freeman 23:24
Nice, awesome. If somebody offered you a free round trip - just for the record, I'm not offering you a free round trip - But if somebody offered you a free round trip flight to anywhere in the world, where would you go? Alana?
Alana Jones 23:37
I would love to go relax in the south of France with some wine, the warm weather and tour around on a big old boat.
Trevor Freeman 23:46
Perfect Priscilla, what but you
Priscilla Lacerda 23:49
Scotland seems like a magical place to visit.
Trevor Freeman 23:53
Yeah, it sure was a great answer. Who is someone that you admire? Priscilla?
Priscilla Lacerda 23:59
So for me, it's my husband because he was truly brave to leave everything behind in our home country to emigrate with me.
Trevor Freeman 24:07
Yeah, that can't have been easy for either of you. Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 24:11
I would also say my spouse, he's the hardest working person I know and a great provider. He's also the best dad, we have three young boys and they absolutely adore him. He can be out working all day and still come home with energy to wrestle and play with them. And he just teaches them so many useful life skills. And I really, really adore watching them learn from them.
Trevor Freeman 24:31
Awesome. That's great answer. Okay, so I mean, these are typically not topic relevant questions, but I'm going to slip one in here as part of our rapid fire section. What is an emerging technology or trend in the energy sector that you're most excited about and that you think will have a massive impact? Priscilla, why don't you start?
Priscilla Lacerda 24:51
So the trend of buying an electric vehicle in our daily lives is having a massive impact on how we need to prepare this system to absorb the growing demand for power in residential and commercial units. I think this will also have a huge impact on the environment too. Because electric cars batteries will need to be discarded or recycled once they reach their lifespan.
Trevor Freeman 25:15
Yeah, I think you're totally right EVs are kind of that first technology when we look at the energy transition, the one that's maybe the furthest along, there's others to come. But I think you're totally right. It's the one that really we're starting to see what some of the challenges and opportunities are for that. So great answer, Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 25:34
Yeah, so an emerging technology I was recently introduced to a company that produces wireless inductive charging for vehicles. So if you can imagine, there are these charging pads, basically, they're placed in the ground, and your vehicle gets equipped with a receiver that when you drive over these pads, charging is engaged, there's no need for wires or plugs or even to step out of your vehicle for that matter. It just seems like a really great technology. And I'm really anxious to see if it will be in Ottawa anytime soon. If we'll be seeing that around. Where do you see the applications for that? Is that like in parking garages? Or parking lots? Or is that something embedded in the road when you drive over it? Yeah, it is embedded in the road. So the company works with a few, they've already done these installations with a few other companies. One thing we're busing fleets. So they have these large buses that go in charge, instead of doing it at the depot, they can kind of go in their lane, and they're really fast charging, and things like that. So it's a good application for that for larger vehicles as well.
Trevor Freeman 26:33
It's definitely one of those sectors, or those areas that you know, some of the possibilities out there are pretty exciting to see about how we might, you know, envision our lives in the future. Makes you think of those, you know, articles or those magazines that say this is what life is going to be like in 2050. And imagine if we're all driving around charging our cars while we drive, I think that's pretty cool. Okay, well, thank you both for joining me today. It's been really great getting to know you and hearing a little bit more about what you do and how you got to where you are. I'm really excited for you both as you continue to chart your career paths and decide, you know, where your interests and your passions lie and kind of follow that. But really, I'm glad we've got smart folks like you who are going to be helping us shape the future of energy, maybe chasing down those roads that charge our cars. So thanks very much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Alana Jones 27:21
Thanks, Trevor. I appreciate you having us on the show.
Priscilla Lacerda 27:24
Yeah, thank you very much. It was awesome.
Trevor Freeman 27:26
Great. Thanks, guys. To everyone else out there. Thanks for listening, and we'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really help us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com
Thinkenergy launched May 2019, with host Dan Séguin leading the charge to demystify the fast-changing world of energy. From helping Canadians better understand the sector to sharing insights from industry leaders and experts, Dan is a key reason why thinkenergy is the podcast for conversations around the future of energy. In his last episode as host, Dan passes the mic to Trevor Freeman, Supervisor, Key Accounts at Hydro Ottawa. Listen in as they share favourite episodes, what’s to come and more.
Related links
Daniel Séguin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-s%C3%A9guin-a29b4130/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show is going to be a little different. This is a bittersweet episode of thick energy podcasts. Today marks the end of an era for me on this incredible journey through the world of energy. It's been an honor and a privilege to share stories, insights, and innovations with all of you these many years on the show. But as they say, all good things must come to an end. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to the new Captain steering this ship into the future, someone who is just as passionate and knowledgeable about the energy sector than I am, maybe a little more. So. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming your new host of the think energy podcast. Trevor Freeman. Trevor, welcome to the show.
Trevor Freeman 01:21
Thanks very much, Dan. And thanks for having me on and entrusting me with this project. I just want to start by recognizing all the hard work that you and your team have put into building thinkenergy into what it is today. It's a great community of listeners who are enthusiastic and curious about all things energy related. I've really enjoyed following along. And I'm thrilled to be joining the think energy team as we continue to explore this dynamic and ever changing world of energy at this really critical time in our industry.
Dan Seguin 01:50
Trevor, for our listeners, perhaps you can tell us about yourself, your expertise in the energy sector in short, what is your role now? And how did you get here?
Trevor Freeman 02:02
Sure. So I'm an environmental engineer who has been in the sustainability and energy field for about 14 years now. Right when I graduated out of university, I spent about four years working in international development and water and sanitation. But I'm coming back home to Canada I decided to explore this passion for sustainability and environmental improvement. And I made the shift to working in green building design and energy management. I worked in consulting and helping building owners primarily commercial real estate, improve their buildings, reduce energy consumption and costs, and incorporate sustainable thinking into their day to day business operations. I joined Hydro Ottawa about eight years ago now, first working on our conservation and demand management team, before making the jump over to our key accounts team, which I now lead. As the leader of the key accounts team, we support some of our largest commercial customers with all things related to energy, we're here to be their trusted advisors, whether that's routine questions or access to various services that Hydro Ottawa offers, or looking ahead, as more and more of our customers start to plan their own decarbonisation, or energy transition pathways. It's really a great role that helps my team and I really understand the needs and drivers of our customers, which are ultimately the end users of the energy that gets talked about on this podcast so often, that understanding helps Hydro Ottawa plan to meet the needs of those customers moving forward.
Dan Seguin 03:37
Okay, aside from fame and fortune, what drew you to take on this role of hosting the podcast?
Trevor Freeman 03:45
Well, I mean, since I can't talk about the first two, which are really the main drivers. In addition to being an engineer, I'm actually really passionate about communicating complex items. I know the term 'good communication' is not always associated with engineers, and I'm allowed to make that joke. But I really do enjoy having, you know, those tough conversations about complex and technical topics, whether that's how the grid works, to the changing landscape and technologies associated with energy to simply how does your electricity bill work? Or how does a building mechanical system work? I really enjoy having those conversations. And this seems like a great opportunity. So that plus seeing all the great conversations you've been able to have over the past years, with some really fantastic folks who are doing really great things, made it an easy decision to step into the role when the opportunity arose.
Dan Seguin 04:37
Very cool, Trevor, sorry, but I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you have any favorite episodes of rhe thinkenergy podcast that resonate with you?
Trevor Freeman 04:48
Sure. I'm actually going to cheat here, Dan, and give you three but I promise I'll be quick. So the first one is an episode that you did about residential heat pumps, with our mutual colleague Sean Carr. So I'm a little bit biased in this one because not only do I know Shawn story very well, but I actually went through my own heat pump journey about four years ago when I installed the hybrid heating system and my own house. And I think the more we talk about the benefits and the challenges of electrifying home heating, the easier we make that step for everyone else, who's going to be doing it as well. The second one I'm going to pick is your interview with Hydro Ottawa's CEO, Bryce Conrad, about our own netzero ambitions as an organization. So folks can go back and listen for themselves. But as a member of the Hydro Ottawa team, I was really inspired by the ambition and the drive to be a leader, and commit to something bold and lofty, even though we don't necessarily have all the answers about exactly how we're going to get there. And finally, I really loved your conversation with Dr. Monica Gettinger about the conversation we need to have around the future of energy, specifically her Positive Energy Program. As someone who is really passionate about taking action around climate change. I'm all too aware that as much as we finally seem to be getting some consensus that climate change is indeed a problem, there's still a lot of polarizing views about how to address the issue and how fast to move. Dr. Gettinger's work on building consensus and having a constructive dialogue was really refreshing to hear and made me really optimistic about where we can go with this.
Dan Seguin 06:22
Cool. Okay, now, what excites you about the future of energy?
Trevor Freeman 06:28
Yeah, I think this is a really great time to be in the energy fields, things feel like they're changing rapidly. And it seems like we're on the cusp of a real evolution of how we power our lives and our society. Whether it's what kind of energy we use - clean energy versus emissions producing energy, where that energy comes from, you know, centrally produced versus distributed, and how much control over that energy, the end users. So that's the homes and the businesses have through things like self generation and storage and smart technology. And that's not even talking about how that smart technology and AI is going to impact all of the above. So above all, I think I'm really excited to be working in an industry. That's really one of the major tools we have as a society to combat climate change. Electricity, while not the only answer is a major avenue for decarbonisation, and I really love being a part of that.
Dan Seguin 07:28
Okay, Trevor, are there any topics or themes from your experience that you'd like to explore further on show? What can our listeners expect?
Trevor Freeman 07:38
Honestly, Dan, I hope it's more of the same as what you've been doing over these past years. So that's talking to smart folks who are doing really cool things in the energy industry, especially around decarbonisation, and the energy transition that includes helping demystify some of those more complex topics for our listeners, you know, how does this big machine that we call the electricity grid in the energy industry? How does that all work? And what does it mean for our consumers, and then getting into the weeds on the energy transition, whether that's specific technologies or policy ideas, or more likely a mix of the both because you really can never have one without the other?
Dan Seguin 08:16
Very cool. Thanks, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 08:19
Thank you, Dan. So I think this is the part where I get to take over. Now your listeners will know that you've been sitting behind the microphone for a number of years now, but I don't think anybody has ever interviewed you. So let's take this opportunity to ask you a couple of questions. So first of all, I was thinking maybe you could take us back to the beginning and tell us what inspired you to start this podcast?
Dan Seguin 08:43
Well, our first podcast for those who don't remember, it was released in May of 2019. The topic was Microgeneration, wow! Ee explored the possibility, back then, of turning your home into your own virtual power plant. Now, the reason why we dove into podcasting was driven by the fact that we were looking for a product a platform that could help demystify maybe better understand the fast changing world of energy. We were looking for a product where we could maybe better shape the narrative, you know, by leveraging influencers and subject matter expert. It provided us with greater ability if you want to maximize the reach of the podcast, but also its amplification. Also, working with a captive audience like minded people, is much easier. Finally, another reason we gravitated to podcasting was to deal with info obesity, great term here, you know, cluster and noise on channels is constantly increasing and customer attention span is shrinking. So podcasts were convenient and very easy to consume. They're poor. audible. You can listen to them in a gym, drive to work or even on a plane. So it was a great choice for us to do and it worked very well. Now, if I look back five years, I think that podcasts have been extremely sticky. This long form content, basically had a great listen rate. And for us, I think we did good.
Trevor Freeman 10:24
Great. Thanks, Dan. I can tell already that I've got a lot to learn on the communication side of things and marketing what we do here. On the podcast, do you have a favorite moment or more than one from doing the show that you want to share a favorite episode or something that really stands out and encapsulates the essence of think energy?
Dan Seguin 10:45
So you're asking me to pick my favorite child? That's a tough one. Okay. Well, I think the one that comes into mind is the episode with a disaster volunteer from the Canadian Red Cross. As we all know, we've experienced a pandemic, a number of natural disasters in the last couple of years, devastating wind storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, freezing rain, forest fires and floods. And when disaster strikes, electricity supply is usually jeopardized. So during these large scale, emergencies, emergency response becomes critical. And in this interview, we explored what it's like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. It's a very cool episode.
Trevor Freeman 11:36
Over the past number of years of doing this, what has been the most significant change or changes and developments in the energy sector that you've seen?
Dan Seguin 11:44
I think it's the acknowledgement of reducing our environmental footprint, the commitment to provide innovative sustainable solutions, things like achieving net zero operations. Also, climate change, coupled with the push for electrification is now driving a lot of innovation and change in our sector. What comes to mind is that greater push towards renewable energy, expanding access to EV infrastructure, as zero emission with public transit, there's a lot going on. And let's not forget the evolution of customers. They are no longer passive consumers of electricity, some of them are now becoming prosumers, managing, generating and selling their energy. So the energy landscape is in a constant flux. And it's going to be an exciting ride.
Trevor Freeman 12:40
So as I sit here, behind the microphone on this side of the desk, what advice do you have for me taking on this podcasts around that ever evolving world of energy?
Dan Seguin 12:50
This is not going to be long winded. Always make sure the content provides value for the audience. You must be audience driven. Be curious, and have fun. That's it.
Trevor Freeman 13:04
Perfect. Sounds easy. So Dan, as you step away from hosting, what comes next? Are we going to be competing for podcast listeners or what's in your future?
Dan Seguin 13:12
Not at all. I'll be spending a lot more time with my wife. I'm going to continue my karate journey. I'm going to master pickleball my word. I want to do bike rail trails across Canada in the US. And I'm looking forward to joining the ever growing generation of snowbirds in Florida. While renovating my condo in Naples and enjoying the beach.
Trevor Freeman 13:40
As long as you put some solar on that condo, Dan, I think that sounds like an awesome plan. So finally, just to wrap it all up again, our regular listeners will know that you have subjected your guests to some on the spot rapid fire questions. And again, I don't think you've ever answered them yourselves. So I think it's time that we get to hear what your answers to those questions would be. So are you ready?
Dan Seguin 14:03
I am.
Trevor Freeman 14:04
Here we go. What are you reading right now?
Dan Seguin 14:07
Right now I'm reading Forever Young by Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It's a book on strategies for aging.
Trevor Freeman 14:13
Well, sounds appropriate given your coming retirement. So what would you name your boat if you had one? And do you have one?
Dan Seguin 14:21
I do not. I used to have a pontoon boat when I lived by the lake, but I would call it now, I think, Gilligan.
Trevor Freeman 14:29
Who is someone that you admire?
Dan Seguin 14:31
Hands down my life partner, my better half, France, my wife.
Trevor Freeman 14:35
I know that if I'd have asked you to name two people, I would have been number two.
Dan Seguin 14:38
Oh, absolutely.
Trevor Freeman 14:39
I know that like many of us, you are probably guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and streaming platforms over the last number of years. So what's your favorite movie or show?
Dan Seguin 14:49
Okay, well, the best Netflix series hands down is Peaky Blinders. And for me the best movies I'll go with three. The Godfather, Memento and Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.
15:03
Well Dan, I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for pulling me in and then trusting this with me. And thanks for sharing a little bit about your life with us today.
Dan Seguin 15:16
Very cool. Thank you very much.
Trevor Freeman 15:18
And finally, what excites you about the energy industry right now?
Dan Seguin 15:22
Well, I think I alluded to this earlier, I think what's exciting me is seeing how the electricity grid, how utilities across North America will cope with a millions of EVs should be interesting.
Trevor Freeman 15:36
You'll have to come back in Dan and check in on things in a year or two. And we've got it all figured out. No doubt. So Dan, I think that's it. I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for having me on for entrusting this with me, and for sharing a little bit about your insights and your life with us on this episode.
Dan Seguin 15:58
Thank you, Trevor. There you have it, folks, thank you all for being part of this amazing community. And I look forward to tuning in now as a listener. From now on. This is Dan Seguinsigning off and passing the microphone over to Mr. Trevor Freeman.
Trevor Freeman 16:17
Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.
Dan Seguin 16:20
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Rewind episode: The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing, as countries worldwide are eliminating greenhouse gases and moving away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future has a lot of moving parts, especially as it relates to cleaning Canada’s energy sector. Merran Smith, founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada, joins us to talk about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.
Related links
LinkedIn, Merran Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/
LinkedIn, Clean Energy Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clean-energy-canada/
Clean Energy Canada: https://cleanenergycanada.org/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Trancript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today, we're coming clean about what clean energy could look like in the near future. That's right. And with the help of our guests, we're going to define what clean energy means, specifically for Canada and the future of electricity. There is a rising pressure around the globe to transition away from fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gases, and challenge the status quo when it comes to pollution and tackling climate change. What does that mean for Canada and our place in a clean energy world? Obviously, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to cleaning Canada's energy sector, particularly when it comes to transportation, and heating of our buildings. But there's more to it than just that. There's renewable energy, revamping and expanding the electricity grid and conserving energy. Not to mention innovation and technology that doesn't exist yet. That will all play a role in getting us to Canada's Net Zero targets. So here's today's big question. Can Canada affordably and realistically accelerate its transition to clean energy in time? Our guest today is Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada is a leading Think Tank, advancing clean energy and climate solutions. Marren has won numerous awards for her work and also serves as co chair of the BC government's Climate Solutions Council. Okay, Marren, let's kick things off by telling our listeners about yourself, your work, and what Clean Energy Canada is.
Marren Smith 02:23
Yeah, so I'll start with Clean Energy Canada, we're a think tank based at Simon Fraser University's Center for dialogue. And we focus on solutions to accelerate the transition to a clean energy economy. And so what do we actually do? You know, we do think tank things like analysis and policy advice. But what makes us really different is that one, we focus on the solutions, not the problems, all about solutions to we really like to bring together business industry unions, get everybody in the room and see if we can get consensus around the advice to governments so that they can move solutions forward faster. And thirdly, what we do is we do a lot of talking to Canadians about the energy transition, how it links to jobs, to a nick strong economy and more affordability. And so we think of ourselves actually as a do tank and not a think tank. And myself, I'm a fellow at Simon Fraser University, I founded Clean Energy Canada, I'm now moved on, I'm no longer the Executive Director. I'm the Chief Innovation Officer. And I had been asked over the years, in the last 10 years doing this work, to co chair a number of Climate and Energy advisory bodies for both the federal and British Columbia governments. And I think that's because I have a pretty long track record of bringing together unusual allies around solutions to environmental energy and economy problems. So that's a bit about me.
Dan Seguin 04:09
Now, I'm somewhat curious, how does Clean Energy Canada define clean energy? Is it in relation to zero emissions? Or is there more to it than that?
Marren Smith 04:22
Yeah, so for us, we talk about clean energy spanning both energy supply. So renewable electricity, for example, solar, wind, thermal, but also demand. And so our definition of clean energy includes, like, as I said, renewable electricity generation, but also energy storage, energy transmission, energy efficiency, and any of the technologies or services that decarbonize transportation buildings in these and other polluting parts of our economy. So we have a fairly large definition of clean energy. And you know it really, when you look at it, that is what energy is all about. It's not just about making the energy. It's about how you use it and the technology so that you can use it more efficiently.
Dan Seguin 05:18
Clean Energy Canada has been advocating for climate action since 2010; 12 years in what are three positive changes that have made the biggest impact in Canada? And what is one that has hindered success?
Marren Smith 05:37
Yeah, this is a great question. So the three positive changes that I see is, one, the cost of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we've really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over those last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle have dropped about 90%, wind has dropped about 40%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this is coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the eccotemp economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. Um, the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible. And that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over this last six years, federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada's had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly, is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive, and especially the today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to ten dollars versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from, we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards netzero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies. And, you know, continue with a strong economy if we do at night, right if we act now. And I guess Lastly, about electric vehicles, it's for anybody who hasn't gotten in one yet, you really should, because they're pretty fun to drive. And that's what we want this energy transition to be. We want it to be make life better. And I think electric vehicles are just one way that people can see how, you know, once you get over the hurdle of purchasing one, it does make life better, cleaner air, more affordable to drive. Now, you asked the other question, what's hindered success? And I would say what's really hindered Canada's movement on all of this has been the debate and the governments that have really ripped up climate action or refused to move forward on climate action. And, you know, that's created uncertainty. So we've seen various governments in Ontario in Alberta, you know, federally across the country, I shouldn't just name those provinces, because across the country, governments who come in and who are not willing to take action on climate and really want to stick with the static quo. And that really creates a lot of uncertainty for business and doesn't drive the change. I'm really hopeful that we're not going to see that anymore. You know, now that we've seen this new inflation reduction act out of the United States, it is sending a clear signal that this is the biggest economic opportunity that there has been, you know, in this generation, absolutely. To drive and build this clean energy economy, they are investing heavily in it. And we're going to see in the United States, those kinds of investments happening all over the country, you know, in red states and blue states, blue collar workers are going to be you know, being employed in plants, white collar workers, rural urban, this, this is going to be a massive, massive growth for industries and the economy, in producing electricity producing batteries and producing all the component pieces towards them hydrogen, retrofitting buildings. So there is a huge boom coming. And I hope that in Canada, we actually see our government picking up on that as well and linking this decarbonisation with our economic strategy.
Dan Seguin 11:55
Marren, what do you mean when you state that the Clean Energy Transition is a once in a generation opportunity for Canada to build a resilient, growing and inclusive economy?
Marren Smith 12:10
Yeah, so we've just talked about how we're really seeing around the globe, you know, the United States, but we've been seeing this in the EU and the UK and China, this, you know, linking up their industrial strategy, their economic strategy, to their economic strategies. And so Canada really has what it takes to make this shift as well to, you know, take action on climate decarbonize and really shift from fossil fuels oriented economy to a clean energy or renewable energy economy. So we have the natural resources that are going to be needed, you know, those metals and minerals, for example, we're going to be needing that steel, that cobalt, that nickel to be building the transmission lines, the solar panels, and in particular, the batteries, which are really the heart of the clean energy system. So Canada has what it takes. And then secondly, we've got the clean electricity or grids about 83% clean or zero mission right now. We've got a skilled labor force. So that's what the opportunity is, it's going to be a massive effort for us to retool our existing industries and build some of these new industries. But we've got the potential to do it.
Dan Seguin 13:40
Next question. Now, what makes Canada well positioned to be a global clean energy leader?
Marren Smith 13:48
So Canada's got the natural resources that we talked about metals and minerals, forest products, agricultural products, we've got great solar and wind resources and a grid that's already at 3% zero emission. We have great potential for green hydrogen. And, you know, we've got great trading relationships with the US as well as Europe and Asia. So we are positioned to be creating clean energy and one of the things that we are uniquely positioned around our batteries. Batteries are going to be the heart of the energy system. So they're obviously the heart of the electric vehicle. But also, large scale batteries are going to be what backs up that intermittent or variable wind and solar and renewable energies, they're going to be a part of the system as well. And so Canada is the only country in the Western world. It's actually the only democratically elected country that has all the metals and minerals needed to produce batteries. So In addition, we've got the good clean electricity to actually manufacture those metals and minerals and turn them into, you know, refine them, turn them into cells and ultimately batteries. So we've got the key components there. And that one huge opportunity for Canada. And we're seeing you know, this federal government has been working with Ontario and Quebec and landing some significant battery company investments, you know, GM and Bay calm for this year, LG and still Lantus in Ontario. So that's I some of the key parts of why Canada is so well positioned to be a clean energy leader.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Next question for you. What are the strategies you employ to achieve your mission to accelerate Canada's transition to a renewably powered economy?
Marren Smith 15:56
Yeah, so one, I think that we work with businesses, industry unions, to understand what their needs are, you know, we're positioned at the Center for dialogue at Simon Fraser University. And so we use dialogue, bring people together, structure it so that we can have a deliberate conversation that gets us to advice for government. So that's one of the strategies we employ. A second one is, you know, we look around the world and we find out what policies are working elsewhere, what programs, what are other countries doing that's working? And what can we glean out of that, and use in the Canadian context, and feed that kind of information to governments and to industry about what they can do next? Because Kevin does not the only one doing this, and there's a lot of countries that are ahead of us on this. So let's learn from them, and Canadian eyes it. And then lastly, we really have an eye to bringing the public along with us in this conversation, ensuring that they understand the Clean Energy Transition exactly what does it mean, understand some of the policies when they get controversial? And understand what's in it for them? You know, and right now we're seeing a public that is got, you know, a lot of insecurity going on with the global state of affairs, the war in the Ukraine, you know, this energy prices escalating, there's a lot of misinformation going on. And so, actually having the public understand and see how they fit into the energy transition, and how it's going to make life better for them, is, I'd say, a very important part of the transition. And so we do what we can we actually study how to communicate with the public and study language, what works with them, what resonates and how to get the stories to them that are going to help them understand this energy transition, what they can do, and what they can support.
Dan Seguin 18:06
Marren wondering if you could unpack for our listeners, what are some of the ways clean energy Canada has contributed to our country's progress in the last year or two?
Marren Smith 18:19
Yeah, so we have been working hard over the last couple of years. And I'll tell you about some of the significant achievements that I think we've been part of making happen. So first is about electric vehicles, or zero emission vehicles, as they're called in some circles. We see these as a key part of the solution, and one that is getting ready for primetime. They're a key part of the solution, because one quarter of Canada's carbon pollution is from transportation. So we've got to tackle this and about half of it from passenger vehicles, half of it's from trucks and buses. And so we've been working on both sides of that equation. And one of the things that had become the barrier has been supply of cars. At this point, people want them and we're seeing the uptake of those cars, you know, double and triple year over year. And so how do you get the supply here and how you do that through a policy called the zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the automakers to sell them in, in Canada. And so that's one that we've been working on. We actually were successful in getting one in British Columbia. And you know, and I have to report to you that so far in 2022 17% of new car sales have been electric vehicles. So that just far outpaces what people predicted. I think we were trying to get to 10% by 2025. We've blown through that we've now increased our targets because clearly for Colombians are ready to buy them. And there's similar types of stats from Quebec, who also has a zero emission vehicle mandate. The challenge for the rest of the country, and you know, if you're in Ottawa, you're probably going and putting your name on the list. And it's multiple years, you might not even be able to get on the list anymore, because there just aren't any cars. And so we need a federal zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the companies to the automakers to sell electric vehicles in Canada, or they're penalized. So that's one thing that we've made good progress on and contributed to. One that I haven't talked much about, that I'll mention here is about the steel sector, the cement sector, these heavy industries that are also heavy polluters. And, you know, so that's another area we've been working on and looking for solutions. We're looking at, okay, much of this steel, cement, aluminum, it's all being used in the construction industry. So how do we get those who are building things and buying things to demand low carbon steel, low carbon cement, which will really help these industries put it'll push them to to decarbonize and so that program is called by clean. The biggest purchaser of steel and cement and, and these types of things in the country is the government and we've been working to get the government to commit to a bike clean policy. The really interesting thing is that the steel sector, the cement sector, the aluminum sector V, these sectors are really on board to decarbonizing, this is globally happening. We're seeing all of these industries recognize that they cannot be admitting the scale of pollution, they are right now they've got to reduce that carbon pollution get to net zero. And so, again, we're seeing progress on reducing emissions in that sector. And we're seeing, you know, the United States and Canada have actually said that they are going to work together on this bike lanes so that both countries are pushing that they will procure, they will only purchase low, lower carbon, steel, cement, etc, for building our hospital, roads, schools, and all those good things. So that's another one that I'd say we could say we've been involved with, and batteries, I've already talked about it. We've been involved in the batteries for the last few years, and bringing together that sector, from the mining sector, all the way up to battery producers and electric vehicle, you know, the automatic factoring companies like GM, and all the way to the recyclers, and working with government to get, you know, a battery strategy for Canada to really ensure that we lock in and land the most jobs and the most opportunities for Canadians across the country. And these would be jobs in different provinces and opportunities for different provinces, you know, rural urban jobs, etc. So it's a big opportunity, but Canada's got to act quickly if we really want to get the most benefits from it. And by the most benefits, I mean, we could be creating a quarter of a million jobs by 2030 in this sector, which would be good for the country and will help us as we're transitioning, you know, out of other job sectors.
Dan Seguin 23:36
Okay, Marren, are you able to expand on some of Clean Energy Canada's short term goals?
Marren Smith 23:44
Yeah. So I would say right now, our top short term goal is around public awareness and understanding how shifting to clean energy is going to help affordability for Canadians. I think this is critical and important, because you know, this electrification, people are very sensitive to the price of electricity and increasing costs of electricity. And so there's a piece of work to ship to understanding what your overall energy costs are. So as we move off of fossil fuels, that means you're not spending as much on gas anymore. You know, for your gas fired car, but your electricity bill is going to go up. As you shift off of the having gas to heat and cool your home and shifting to an electric heat pump, their electricity bills can go up. We did some research earlier this year. Report called the true cost looking at some of the top models of cars in Canada, what it costs to purchase one plus run it over eight years, and we'll probably talk a bit more about this letter later. So just to say having Canadians under stand that this shift, while it's gonna have some costs in the short term is a more affordable and a better option for Canadians.
Dan Seguin 25:11
You recently contributed to a white paper with Electric Mobility Canada, on how Canada can design an effective zero emission vehicle mandate. I'm curious, what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 25:27
Yeah. So, I'd say trying to do this in a nutshell. So first of all, is accountability. So we need to ensure that automakers are accountable and keeping pace with demand. And we need to do that with legally binding annual sales requirements so that they have to sell X percent of cars that are electric, and that there's serious financial penalties for non compliance. And that's, that's really the nuts and bolts of a good zero emission vehicle mandate. There's a whole bunch of details in there. Some provinces, like you mentioned, Quebec, and BC, they already have one, so we just need to use this in provinces that don't have them. And then our other key aspect of the recommendations was speed, we need to really finalize this regulation next year, so that it takes effect with model year 2024. There's really no time to wait on this. And we can see the demand for cars is there. We really need to be able to get them into the hands of people right now while they want them.
Dan Seguin 26:37
Now, for my first follow up question, we all know that the lack of supply is a big issue when it comes to zero emission vehicle sales. What's driving that? Are automakers prioritizing other markets? Where they're required to sell more EVs?
Marren Smith 27:00
Yeah, well, that's exactly what we're seeing here. In Canada, the majority of the electric vehicles are going to British Columbia and Quebec, because they're required to sell them there. And, you know, they're going to other states in the United States that have similar types of mandates California at one, but there's a button doesn't down there. And so they're sending them where they need to, you know, in the past, they have been making more money selling, you know, SUVs, for example, those bigger, heavier cars are where they've been making most of their profits. And so they're trying to get rid of those in Canada while they can. But this world is accelerating so quickly. You know, I think once we get the zero emission vehicle mandate, that rules so that the automakers have to sell the cars, we're going to start seeing them arrive in Canada, and we've seen, you know, the Detroit three have all been doubling and tripling their commitment for how fast they're going to start getting cars going and coming off the line. And I think we're going to only see that accelerate in the future. So I'm hoping that, you know, it looks like the automakers are more and more committing to be producing the cars. So the next obstacle is going to be the supply chain and whether they can get the batteries and get the other materials to make them.
Dan Seguin 28:34
Okay, another follow up question for you, Marren. Are there provinces in Canada that get prioritized for EV over others for example, Quebec, or maybe BC?
Marren Smith 28:46
Yeah, absolutely. That's why there's there certain car makes and models that you can only get in BC and Quebec, and that will be related to the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, they, they get, there's a stick and if they don't sell enough cars, they get penalized. So they make sure the cars are in BC and Quebec and that's really the best selling feature for why we need this to be a national program and have a federal zero emission vehicle mandate.
Dan Seguin 29:16
Now hand in hand with that, you convened a select group of industry stakeholders and other experts to develop a report on advancing the Canadian evey battery sector. What were some of the key takeaways from those consultations?
Marren Smith 29:34
Yeah, so the report we produced which you can find on our website at talks about this opportunity, and it is huge to produce batteries. We're talking upwards of 250,000 jobs by 2030 and $40 billion annually going to the Canadian revenues. So that's a great opportunity, but it's not going to happen without you. No creating a strategy to get there. And that is the top recommendation from this group of industry and other experts. The Canadian battery Task Force is what they're called, the top recommendation is we need to have a Canadian battery strategy, which is going to ensure that we target and focus the investment dollars in the right place, that we get the workforce setup. Because, you know, while we do have a great workforce in Canada, we're going to need more workers and with the right skills, and that we make sure that we get the infrastructure, we get the electricity, the clean electricity to the right places, and then we've got enough of it. You know, we've seen almost every battery Manor battery manufacturing plant, that set up so far, has mentioned the zero emission electricity that you can get in Canada. And that's one of the reasons why they chose to build in Canada. And these are big global companies that are choosing to land in Ontario and Quebec so far. And so we just, we need that kind of strategy to ensure that we can get the most out of this battery opportunity.
Dan Seguin 31:16
I like that. Okay. Let's move on. Can you tell us about your recent analysis that found electric vehicles are in fact cheaper, often by a lot than their gas counterpart? What models were you comparing and what factors were considered?
Marren Smith 31:38
Yeah, so we looked at some of the best selling cars in Canada. Things like the Chevy Bolt as the electric versus its gas counterpart, the Toyota Corolla, the Hyundai Kona versus the electric Kona, the Nissan LEAF versus the Honda Civic etcetera. So we did this for a number of the top selling cars, we looked at purchasing it, as well as operating it and maintaining it over an eight year period. And, you know, what we found is that in almost every case, you were saving money. And you know, we've had to update this because the price of gas has gone up so much. But the total costs savings are going electric range from 10 to $15,000, over eight years. That's significant savings. And, you know, as you talked about, you know, you notice that there's almost no maintenance costs for an electric vehicle. And that your cost of fueling is, you know, so much cheaper. And this was before gas was at $2, a leader. So roughly back the envelope, you know, those savings are going to jump in, for example, the Kona to about $18,000 or more, a lot of people don't understand how much more affordable an electric vehicle is. And they look at the sticker price of buying a new car. And that's what turns them away. At you know, so we're encouraging people to really understand, look at the long term. And we know that not everybody can go buy a new car, I didn't buy a new car ever in my life till I bought an electric vehicle. I always bought used cars. But the savings are significant. And of course, the added bonus is the you know, zero emissions, you're part of the solution and helping with climate change.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Okay, a follow up question here. Were there any expectations here?
Marren Smith 33:47
Yeah, so the Ford electric F-150. It was pretty close. Probably now if we did it with the the price or cost of gas now, you would actually be more affordable on the Ford F-150 We haven't gone back to it. The other thing to note on this is that electric vehicles are really holding their value. So if you're someone who likes to buy a new car and sell it in eight or so years, your electric vehicle used car sales are much higher than when you buy a new gas fire vehicle and then sell it off.
Dan Seguin 34:27
When it comes to the electricity grid Canada is 83% emission free and with lower electricity rates than many other countries. We seem to be in an enviable position. But in your report underneath it all. Your findings show that Canada may not be as prepared for a carbon neutral world, as we may think. Now, for the big question, why is that?
Marren Smith 34:55
Yeah, we are ahead. But it's not just about Getting from 83% zero emission to 100%. If that was the only challenge before us, you know, it would take some work, but that's extremely doable. But this energy transition is really the whole sale, reengineering of many of our supply chains, almost the entirety of the energy system that powers the economy, it's huge. And we are going to need to double the amount of electricity we produce by 2050, as we shift our cars or homes or businesses off of fossil fuels and onto the grid. So that's the main message of our report is, you know, we need we have great opportunity here. But we need to double the size of the grid so that we are able to plug our cars and our home heating and cooling and our industries into that zero emission grid.
Dan Seguin 35:53
Okay, follow up question here. What are four reasons Canada needs to achieve 100%? clean electricity supply? And what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 36:06
Yeah. So, you know, first off, it's so that we can effectively combat climate change. And that's, you know, top reason why we're doing this, it's also going to diversify and strengthen Canada's economy. You know, as I said, companies are looking to be powered by zero emission electricity. We've seen those battery plants coming here, one of the reasons cited, and there's more opportunities as more of the the world's industries really focus on how are they going to be net zero, for example, we see Walmart and Amazon, those companies are looking for supply chains that are zero emission, they're counting their carbon, and that includes their transportation. So it's, it's about making Canada competitive and ensuring that we are an attractive place because we can power our economy and our communities with clean electricity. The third reason is around the potential for indigenous reconciliation efforts in clean energy ownership. I think this is a very exciting opportunity. There's already a lot of indigenous communities that own or are partners in clean energy, and we can expand that as this moves forward. And then lastly, is we started talking about affordability on this podcast. And, you know, once you get over the purchasing of the new technologies, it's really more affordable to be plugged into a zero emission grid. And that's going to create more certainty, more security around energy supply.
Dan Seguin 37:51
Marren, what are some of the other benefits to increasing Canada's clean electricity supply?
Marren Smith 37:58
So you know, one, we need clean electricity to meet our climate targets. Secondly, it's around affordability. This is going to help make energy more affordable for communities. And then another benefit. It's clean air, of course, you know, once you shift off of diesel buses, for example, to electric buses out of diesel trucks to electric trucks, you're really cleaning up air quality in cities in particular, but in all communities. And then there's another potential benefit. You know, Canada, most people don't know this, we actually export 8%, for electricity right now to America, that brings in $2.6 billion. And you know, the US has the same commitments around getting to 100% clean electricity grid by 2035. There's a lot dirtier than ours, they've got a lot of catching up to do. And there's a potential for Canada that has an enormous wealth of potential for renewable electricity across the country. Places like you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan have incredible solar resources. We have wind opportunities, you know, offshore onshore. So there's potential for us to be investing in clean electricity, not just for our own needs, but as a immensely valuable export that's going to be in demand in the United States. And then link to that economic opportunity is green hydrogen. We're hearing more about hydrogen can something that Europe's looking at shifting off of natural gas onto green hydrogen, which is made you know, with water getting split with electricity and turned into hydrogen so that's a good clean energy source and something that candidate could also be a leader in.
Dan Seguin 39:56
Okay, tough part is over. We always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some for you. Are you ready?
Marren Smith 40:07
I am. I'm ready. Okay,
Dan Seguin 40:09
So for the first one, what are you reading right now?
Marren Smith 40:12
So I just read picked up a book that I read a number of years ago, The Hearts Invisible Theories by John Bowen. It takes place in Ireland in the starts in the 40s, and follows the life of the other boy, that a man as he's going through, really coming into his own and discovering himself, and it's just beautifully written really great book.
Dan Seguin 40:40
Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Marren Smith 40:45
Well, you know, I lived on one for 11 years. And that boat was called Potential, but I thought about this permanent name of boat. Right now. I might name it unplugged, you know, because it would be the the ticket to just taking off and, and having some fun.
Dan Seguin 41:03
Who is someone that you admire?
Marren Smith 41:06
Yeah, I don't know, if you've heard of Christiana Figueres she was, for a number of years, the United Nations UNFCCC, which was the framework on climate change in the UN, she was the executive secretary there, she is just a fantastic climate leader, she is always positive. She continues to be optimistic in spite of all the challenges in this world, and so it got a smile on her face while she continues to do this work.
Dan Seguin 41:43
Next question, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Marren Smith 41:50
Maybe 15 years ago, I used to work up in what's called the Great Bear Rainforest off the coast of British Columbia, we're taking our group of people out to go see the place and experience it the beautiful ancient rainforest, an area the size of Ireland. And we were whalewatching, watching humpback whales, and they go around in a circle, and they blow their bubbles and make a net out of it. And then they all go down, and they come up in the middle. So there was four of them doing this and they come up in the middle, they make that net around a little school of fish, and they open their mouths and come up and and scoop up all the fish. And we were watching them do that. And then suddenly, I looked off this side of the boat, and there was all these little fish leaping out of the water. And suddenly, the whales picked up our boat and lifted it out of the water. And so it was just amazing. And there they were, then they just kind of sit around at the top, we could have just reached over and pat them. And then I was like, oh my god, I just I wonder if they're hurt. And as we sat there, they all sort of swam away. And they completely breached came out of the water from nose from tip to tail, you could see them all, they hadn't done this before, one after the other all for them. So you could see that they were just fine. And then they swam away.
Dan Seguin 43:24
Okay, moving on to the next one here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Marren Smith 43:32
Yeah, it's been this plethora of Zoom meeting staring at a screen hours after hour. And I'll tell you that I zipped out and got myself a stationary bike. And so during those zoom calls, everybody at first was laughing at me because I'd be kind of wiggling back and forth as I rode the bike slowly, just to keep myself going. And now all kinds of colleagues have now purchased stationary bikes as well.
Dan Seguin 44:09
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?
Marren Smith 44:17
You know, a number of months ago, my family and I went to see The Last City with Sandra Bullock just like a ridiculous funny comedy and I was laughing out loud. And I was just like, you know, it was after the depths of COVID. It just felt great to laugh out loud at something that was just completely goofy and frivolous.
Dan Seguin 44:43
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Marren Smith 44:49
It's the potential for the speed of change. You know, things are moving quickly. And it's that things can move quickly now Technology is ready for primetime. public understands that we need to take climate action. And governments and business are really seeing that economic strategy is going, you know, is is so linked to climate action. They see them as one in the same decarbonisation is what the economic future looks like.
Dan Seguin 45:25
Well, Marren, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how could they connect?
Marren Smith 45:37
Yeah, you can find us at cleanenergycanada.org. And you can also sign up on that for the Clean Energy Review, which is an email we send out every Monday morning that I hear from people in all walks of life from CEOs and ministers to receptionists and friends who don't even work in this. It's got the top 10 upbeat, optimistic solution based stories of the week, you can scan it in two minutes, or you can click on things and dive into these things in more details.
Dan Seguin 46:11
Again, Marren, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Marren Smith 46:16
I do. Thanks a lot for having me.
Dan Seguin 46:19
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Small-scale technologies like solar panels and on-site battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become more energy independent. In this episode, we talk with Dick Bakker, Director of the Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative (OREC), about his personal switch to solar power, OREC’s role as an advocate for renewable energy, and more.
Related links
Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative: https://www.orec.ca/
Dick’s article: https://www.orec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Vistas-Jan-2024-2pages.pdf
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. In today's era, there is a growing desire among residents to take charge of their energy consumption not only to manage costs, but also to actively generate their own power. Traditionally, electricity has been generated at large power plants and transmitted over extensive distances to homes and businesses, leaving consumers with little influence over the source of their electricity. However, advancements in small scale technologies such as solar panels and onsite battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become energy self-sufficient. In addition to these technologies, the integration of smart thermostats, vehicle to grid charging stations and heat pumps is further reshaping the dialogue around energy generation, conservation, and being active participants in an emission free future. Today, Canadians have the opportunity to take control of virtually every aspect of their energy consumption and interaction. The landscape of energy is evolving, putting the power back into the hands of individuals and communities alike. So here's today's big question. What role will innovative technologies and decentralized energy solutions play in shaping the future energy independence for individuals and communities? Joining us today is Dick Bakker, an Ottawa area homeowner that recently published an article about his experience installing a solar panel system on his home. Dick is also the director of an auto renewable energy cooperative, so brings a unique perspective on other small scale renewable projects his organization has been involved in. Dick, welcome to the show.
Dick Bakker 02:34
Thank you very much.
Dan Seguin 02:36
Now, you recently published an article about the process of installing solar panels on your home. What inspired you and your family to make the switch to solar power? And why did you decide to share your experience in this article,
Dick Bakker 02:52
It was a long process, I actually had to go back to 98 when the ice storm hit Eastern, Northeastern the US and Canada. At that time, I was working in the internet equipment business. And I watched the world stop and became fascinated with how it happened. And that caused a restart and an interest in energy that I had from the 70s during the oil crisis. And I found the electricity grid to be very similar to the telecom industry, then in oh three. So in 98, we were out of power here for seven days. People across the road had power, so we're okay, but we just didn't have power in our house. We just live with them. Then in Oh, three the trees in Ohio shut down North America again. And I couldn't believe that that could happen again. But at that time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in North America to come back on stream fully. It took us almost four weeks for the whole province to come back. But Quebec was lit up okay. And they actually had bars on the hunt in the hall side looking at the lights going off in Ontario. But I asked myself why the heck is this. And I realized very quickly that it was because of our big nuclear plants. They're so big, and so rigid. The premier at the time couldn't get the citizens of Ontario to turn off their air conditioning units because of the heatwave we were in. And Quebec was unaffected. Well, why? And I learned it is the centralized nature of Ontario's power grid, and the lack of demand management that we have here. Because of that, anyway, I became fascinated with electricity regulations, and all of that. And that eventually led to me becoming part of the Ottawa renewable energy cooperative, where I learned through hard knocks the problems of the electricity system, the predatory protective regulations, and this new idea called distributed energy resources. Anyway, long and short, I finally realized that we needed to do something at home. And that came about eventually to us putting solar on the house when certain regulations changed. I wrote the article so that I could share my experiences of how the Ontario electricity system works, what we can do about it, and I wrote it for the local community newspaper, the VISTAs, I live in Alta Vista. And through my work at Oreck and my own interests in this house and making it more efficient and cheaper to run, I learned an awful lot and that information should be spread, I thought, okay, Dick,
Dan Seguin 05:24
In your article, you mentioned the challenges you and your neighbors face during the durational storm that hit Ottawa in 2022. And the tornado in 2018. How did these experiences influence your decision to invest in solar and other distributed energy resources specifically?
Dick Bakker 05:46
Well, specific? A lot. They were instrumental. So I've lived in this house for 30 years and Alta Vista, we've been out of power for longer than five days, four times. In the 98 ice storm, the 2003 trees in Ohio that fell over and shut down North America, 2018 Tornado, and the 2022 Derecho. And then there was also another big ice storm in the spring of 23. But we'll leave that aside, it didn't affect us too much. So after the 2022 Derecho, my neighbor and I were discussing what had happened, were both out for 10 days, and he was beside himself because he didn't have anywhere to go. They want to get off the grid completely. And he knew I was involved in the Ottawa, renewable energy cooperative, or Rec. And I told him, You can't go off grid because it's not worthwhile. It's not effective, you're getting a subsidized price of electricity, which didn't, he didn't like hearing that. But I said, you're just we're just not paying enough for our electricity. We're getting it so cheap, it doesn't make sense to put solar on your roof. Besides, we both had trees in our cell site. So that was then I explained to him the centralized nature of the grid. 60% of our power comes from three nuclear sites. Bruce Darlington and Pickering. Pickering being 14%. The pension funds like to invest in big centralized power plants, big shiny objects that the world can see. And the long lines that bring the power from way over there to our little corner is like a cash stream that the incumbents want to keep. They're not interested in distributed energy resources, or D are spread around. But that's where we should be going that time in 2022. Knowing what I knew of the regulations and the orientation of the provincial government, I couldn't see ever having the potential to put solar on your house. Sorry, I couldn't see the financial justification of putting solar on the house. And on top of that, the present government is subsidizing our electricity bills to the tune of 7 billion a year five and a half billion of that is going to general subsidies to the middle class and upper class not targeted to the poor. So at some point that's going to rise. The rating agencies will correct that by threatening to downgrade Ontario's credit rating but all that to say it's still subsidized, so it's not worth putting it on. Then in 2023, January, the Ontario government came out with some changes and started encouraging net metering and local generation.
Dan Seguin 08:28
Okay, now, did you also discuss the changing landscape of Ontario's electricity rules, specifically mentioning the Ontario Energy Boards directive in 2023? What changed that, in your opinion, helped to facilitate the adoption of solar power and what challenges still exist for homeowners today?
Dick Bakker 08:51
Thanks, Dan. That directive from the Ontario Energy Board and 23 was was a game changer for the province. I don't think they realize what potential they unleash them. So from 2018 When the Conservative government took power, they had a big grid only mentality. They wanted big power plants and long lines to deliver the power to the homes and the rules around net metering, which is the only way you can put solar on your house and stay connected to the grid. That's where you generate power, consume it yourself, and trade credits for your over summer for your summer overproduction for your winter consumption or purchases from the grid. So that pricing scheme was basically rigged against the homeowner because homeowners were forced to go to the tiered pricing scheme. So just on that situation, and up until 2023. Net metering wasn't very cost effective because of the pricing, but it could work. Technically, the grid acts as a battery so you're never out of power. So that rule kept me way from thinking of solar on my house. Also, I had trees to the south of the house. So the best place to put the solar panels wouldn't be productive. I don't want to cut the trees down, because that keeps my air conditioning costs low, and they're nice. But then in 23, the province changed the rules around net metering, and came up with an ultra low overnight rate. So the key thing about net metering, they said the local distribution companies would have to give the net metering customer the option to pick their rate class. So you go to a time of use rate if you wish. And then you get value for your time value of electricity. So if you're producing an high rate, you get the high rate in your credits. Okay, so that's good, then they came up with an ultra low overnight time of use rate, third rate class to encourage every user to charge at night, not during the evening dinnertime when everybody's turning on lights and eaters and all their devices. So they want to reduce consumption during the peak hour, and increase consumption at the low hour. And if you produce solar during the four to 9pm, period at 28 cents, that's what you pay, you get credits for 28 cents, that is much better economics for the homeowner, the end user and the solar producer. That's when I realized that my house was actually ideal because I've got a very low sloped roof. The South Side is full of trees, but the north side is clear. And the North side's going to produce more during the four to eight o'clock pm in the summertime at 28 cents. So one hour of that can offset 10 hours at the 2.8 cents for the low rate. So that was one thing. The other thing is I have an EV. We have heat pumps. We just installed a heat pump water heater, so I can time shift my consumption to the low overnight rate, I think it's pretty good. I still think the cost of electricity is going to rise more. So my return on investment is only going to improve because putting all of this in is an insurance policy against that rising cost of electricity. You also asked what are the continuing challenges? The challenges for solar? on the residential side are buildings and trees. How's the building built? Which way are the roofs pointing? Where are the trees? What kind of shading do they throw? But the good thing is that in the summertime, the sun is very high in Canada, so the sun will come straight down more or less. And in the wintertime when there's no snow on your roof. Or even if there's a little bit of snow on the roof. Solar production is marginally better because it's cold. So the physics is better. So there's still lots of opportunity for solar even in this cold northern climate. The challenges are of course buildings and trees to a certain point the supply chain there aren't enough installers, electricians to do all the work that should be done can be done hydro Ottawa, a staff just to get the installations done the upgrades for the grid. But hydro Ottawa needs Ottawa residents to spend this money on their own Diyar so that you can meet your new targets for the year. So I think people who do this on their own are doing it for themselves, but indirectly they're doing it for the betterment of the overall grid, driving down the cost of electricity. Solar does not drive up the cost of electricity when producing nuclear plants drives up the cost of electricity. Okay.
Dan Seguin 13:40
Could you maybe provide more details on the cost and capacity of your solar panel system? What were the economic aspects of your investment, including any government incentives or rebates that may have influenced your decision?
Dick Bakker 13:56
So in my specific installation, I have 37 panels in total. 24 of them are on the north slope and 13 panels on the south slope. So total DC kilowatt of 14.43. That's going through a nine kilowatt inverter. I have no panels on the south slope because there are three big trees there. If I had panels there, it would probably be a third smaller for the same generation. So over 12 months, I expect to generate about 10,246 kilowatt hours. That's 78% of 2020 two's consumption and my electricity consumption includes 90% of our driving because I have an Eevee and a plug in hybrid Evie 90% of our driving 100% of our cooling 40% of our heating a little more than 40% this year because it's a warm winter and 100% of our lights and appliances. So I've got a gas station on my roof and I've got a furnace on my roof effectively because of the ultra low overnight time of use rate. I am confident that with time shifting I can cover 100% of my electricity purchases, not my connection charges 100% of my electricity cost with something like 78% of my electricity kilowatts, because of the time shifting between ultra low and peak rate, the overall cost was $30,478 for the equipment, plus HST electricity upgrade to 200 amp service, some internal wiring changes, and I reached angled under the panels on the north and east, I didn't do the South because it doesn't quite need it effectively, I future proof my house for 30 plus years of electricity, I've given myself 30 years plus of electricity, price insurance and forced savings. And I predict that the credit rating agencies at some point will force the province to reduce the subsidies we're giving to the middle and the upper class and electricity costs. And that'll drive up the electricity rates a little bit, not massively, and I'll be protected from that. or whoever's living here because I'm getting old. So I think the house value of homes that have solar are going to hold their value better than a new kitchen cabinet or a new, new whatever that the new owner pulls out and replaces, you know, you're not going to be replacing solar on a roof if it's reducing your utility bills.
Dan Seguin 16:23
Okay, now our batteries, shifting your energy use away from daytime usage, or other distributed energy resources a consideration?
Dick Bakker 16:33
Well, that's a very good question, because the one thing I haven't done in the house yet is put a battery and a disconnect Island. And that's the next thing I'm going to look at during the summertime, I do these things one at a time to make sure they work and see how they operate. So the next thing will be a battery probably in the garage, if it's appropriate. And the not sure the proper technical term islanding device to allow me to operate separate from the grid. And if I ever buy another car, it'll be an Eevee with to a charging, so that I'll be able to charge my house and the battery over the course of the year, so the battery will be there for a disaster. But over the course of the year, I'll be able to draw power from the solar on the roof, and from the grid at the low rate stored and discharge it to the grid during the peak rate. So that makes my neighbor's grid a little more resilient. And in a crisis, I can be Island as opposed to the noisy gas generators that are sitting around my neighborhood.
Dan Seguin 17:37
Shifting gears a bit now as the director of the auto renewable energy cooperatives since its creation in 2009. Can you share how it works? And what are some of the projects that your coop has built?
Dick Bakker 17:54
Sure, certainly. So OREC is a for profit, renewable energy Co Op that enables residents of Ottawa to be restricted to Ontario by certain rules that I won't get into. So it allows residents of Ottawa and mostly Eastern Ontario but Ontario to benefit from distributed energy resources in their own region, we build our own renewable energy generation. Presently, solar and wind, energy conservation assets, commercial building, lighting installation, retrofit projects that keep the electrons jobs and profits local. So we have 22 solar systems in place now, most of them or the feed in tariff contracts. Three of them are net metering projects, one at the Museum of Science and Tech, two at the French Catholic High School Board, Mere Blue and Paul Desmarais. And then 18 other feed in tariff contracts where we have a contract to sell the power to the grid. At a net metering project. We sell the power to the building. Then we also have two wind projects down in southwestern Ontario and three energy retrofit projects. We had five but two of them have finished their contractor. So the solar projects are on housing coops, burns, schools, museums, factories, and two of them are I'd say medium sized ground mounts, 500 kilowatt ground mounts, the two wind projects. One is a 2.3 megawatt project at Tiverton, just outside of the Bruce nuclear plant and a little funny story I like to tell everyone is that the Bruce nuclear plant doesn't supply power to the neighborhood. All the electricity from Bruce nuclear goes to Toronto on the transmission lines because they connect it to the distribution grid and Temperton that blows all the light bulbs so they feed Toronto and then it trickles all the way back to Tim Burton. The wind project that we have outside of Tim Burton is a standalone turbine and it feeds the distribution grid. So should heaven forbid should Bruce nuclear go down? Some of the people will have electricity coming from our wind turbine. The people that are working at Bruce nuclear will have power at home, not because of the nuclear plant. The second wind turbine is an 800 kilowatt project in Zurich directly south of there. That's a wonderful area for wind. Most of the wind projects in that area are large projects owned by American pension funds, feeding Toronto, all of the power is going on the transmission lines. So getting back to Oh, Rick in general. So we have solar wind and lighting retrofits at the IRA center, condo, and housing coops. All of our projects are revenue generating with proven technologies and solid counterparties. So pretty comfortable with the security of those assets. The board is made up of pretty experienced people, engineers, lawyers, business development, accountants comms people. I'm a bit of a generalist. But I have worked in telecom and technical fields my whole life, not as an engineer, we have 980 members, 500 of them, about half of them have invested over $11 million in equity and debt in our project since we started. And we've paid dividends every year since 2013. When our first project came online, we had repaid to our members over 3.5 million in dividends, interest and capital repayment with very little outside debt, we'd rather pair members than banks, no offense banks, but we want to keep the money within the family within the community. Our main function is to act as an investment cooperative for our members. So we spend most of our time looking for projects to build and or buy, and then raise the community capital to build, operate, repeat, get more projects, raise more capital, pay out the dividends and capital. But we do have to spend an awful lot of money on advocacy work to change the regulations, or maintain whatever regulations are, to promote distributed energy resources of all types. But the second core function that we want to do more of is utilize the knowledge of our 1000 members and create them. It's happening already organically, but we want to have more regular information sessions between our members who are doing things like I just did. We have the largest concentration of any 1000 People in the Ottawa Valley in the province. I think of people who have D er installed in their homes. So we have a lot of end users, battery users, people with knowledge of heat pumps and stuff like that. So we are a group of friends with knowledge of the ER.
Dan Seguin 22:34
Okay now, Dick, when did things really take off with the co-op? And are members seeing dividends?
Dick Bakker 22:42
Well, that's a good question. Because the first offering that we raised was in 2012. And we didn't know how it was going to go, it actually went better than we expected, our minimum requirement was to raise half a million dollars. And in those nine weeks that we had, we raised $970,000, and more cash than we actually needed for what we had to do. And ever since then, we've we're now on our 10th Raise, each raise has gone better than expected. We've always raised more cash than we had projects at that time. So for a period there, we were building up too much cash and didn't have enough projects for them. So projects come more harder than the money or the members, the membership has grown very well. And the equity in the cooperative has been very good. And I'm also proud to say that we've paid dividends every year, since 2013. In the last couple of years, it's been 4%. We'd like it to be higher, but we've had to build everything from scratch without any outside cash. We've just started our latest raise, it's going to close on August 28, I believe. And we're looking for new members with new equity, and that equity can be RRSP or TFSA. It's an investment in the portfolio of 27 existing projects, and the new projects that we're going to be building in the coming year.
Dan Seguin 24:11
Now, let's talk about the changing relationship between electricity consumers and producers. How do you see this evolving in the coming years? And what role do you think individuals and communities will play in the broader energy transition?
Dick Bakker 24:32
This is going to be the biggest change in our society in the coming years. I think we're going to move from being ratepayers with very little agency beyond paying our bills and turning off lights to prosumers or producer consumers who have the ability to produce electricity for conservation, which is what I'm doing or for profit and or for profit when the regulations in Ontario Are you allow hydro Ottawa to buy excess power from homeowners? Right now you can't. So we'll be able to conserve and profit from our assets on our roof. And we'll also be able to actively manage our consumption, again for conservation and profit. So right now we're able to reduce our demand and shift our demand from peak load to low load. But in the future, I'm pretty sure that Ontario will follow California and New York and allow for aggressive demand response programs. And what we'd like to do at some point in the future, as OREC is allow our members to pool their batteries and solar panels and air conditioners, so that we can turn down consumption as the grid gets choked or or constrained. So we just saw what happened in Alberta, they had no demand management program, they turned down some gas plants for renovation in the peak of winter, and then they got hit with a big demand. During a cold period. The only way they got out of their problem was begging their customers to turn down their home heating systems. The citizens responded, but the downtown office towers left their lights on all night. That's absurd. So going forward, I think that the LDCs will be paying people to turn down their demand, because we need the grid to be balanced. We don't need excess generation or excess demand or under demand, we need everything balanced. So a megawatt is as good as a megawatt.
Dan Seguin 26:52
Okay, thank you for that, in your opinion now. What is the city or province doing well, and what improvements need to be made? Now you gotta behave?
Dick Bakker 27:04
I'll try to behave. How long do we have? I don't want to rant. But it's hard not to. On the city site. If there's a climate emergency act like there is one, people should not be buying coffee from an idling car. Housing is energy, stopping natural gas expansion. The Better Homes program is a wonderful program of the city. Because it addresses the upfront costs of retrofitting and DTR and solar and all those things. It ties that cost to a 20 year loan fixed to the House tax bill, not to the person. I'm 68. I may not be in this house for 10 years, I tend to be here longer, but my intention and reality may be different. So we need to have the cost of long term assets spread over years. The Better Homes program says that the city should be encouraging solar and small wind for resilience purposes. Every large group should have solar and there should be wind turbines scattered throughout Eastern Ontario, not just in rural areas in batches of 50. There should be a couple of wind turbines in urban Ottawa with the proper setbacks. That's the city in the province. Every month Ontario's paying out $1.3 billion in gasoline and diesel costs. There's lots of money for the energy transition. You just have to shift it around. Let the nuclear plants run their course, don't shut them down early, but don't pour money down a sinkhole. We just announced today Pickering expansion, well Pickering retrofit, it's the oldest nuclear plant in North America. The province is in a pickle because they know the nukes will be late. The small modular reactors aren't small modular. They are big reactors, they can only go on the transmission lines. That demand is all over the province at the end of the distribution lines where we live and work and EVs and heat pumps are so just let the nuclear plants slow down or wear out. The Donsky Report to the Independent Electricity systems operator said the lowest cost of new energy in the provinces D er of all types. It's just regulations that are stopping it and it makes the province more resilient. So the province can have every city have a similar program to Otto as the Better Homes program. Secondly, remove the Ontario electricity rebate that's putting $5.5 million dollars of taxpayer money into the pockets of people who leave their lights on and put that money instead in the distribution lines allow every kind of virtual net metering in the province especially community solar gardens so that citizens could own the solar on a swimming pool hockey rink. Any facility that is used for a disaster recovery facility should be generating power day to day and then have the ability to island in a crisis and resilience See should be the first order of the electricity grid, proper costs but resiliency and localized and generally liberalize the rules around generation and distribution. Okay,
Dan Seguin 30:10
Does the co-op or its members have an objective to promote or advocate for renewable energy and distributed energy resources in the community or with local governments? Yes,
Dick Bakker 30:23
In every way, as a co op, and with other coops for community scale projects, 100 kilowatt to one or two megawatt is the size of projects that is natural for us. That's the kind of thing that citizens are going to be interested in and seeing and owning, but we are going to work in the bigger projects on the transmission side, but we're advocating for that all the time, spend a lot more time helping our members to act as individuals with information and examples, the whole idea of friends with knowledge to get them to put in their own home systems. So yes, we spend way too much time advocating on behalf of the ER.
Dan Seguin 31:03
Okay, now, are you seeing your co-op's focus areas reflected in government policy, either municipally or provincially? How do you ensure your voices are heard?
Dick Bakker 31:17
We're starting to see a focus on D er, but I'm not yet seeing action, hard, hard action on the ER except for a few exceptions. Hydro Ottawa with the IESO is right now focused on solar DERs as a conservation measure, there's a bunch of regulations around it. I won't get into that right now. So that's good. And the dusky report and the ultra low time of use rate, those are all very good things. But today, they've just announced the massive expenditure on Pickering, which locks us further into the centralized focus of the province. The orientation of all electricity grids is to build big things far away that will break at some point. We're here in Ottawa, and we see all these federal buildings, there's only a few of them that have sold on them. The federal government doesn't do a good job of buying from small organizations like us. So we've had lots of discussions with the feds, but they want to do massive things that the reporters can write about. We're advocating as ourselves and with other coops nationally and provincially in every province, because that's where electricity and Co Op law resides. And we have formed a national association called the Community Energy cooperatives Canada, which is based in Saskatoon right now and has 25 coops from across the country. The fastest growing area of renewable energy coops in Canada is Alberta because they have the most liberalized power grid. So that'll be our national voice. But it'll be a voice at the federal and more importantly, at the provincial level, because that's where electricity lives. We work a lot with the European res Co Op, who have been very successful in Europe to get the EU to pass a directive that says every citizen of the EU has the right to own, operate, store, share, and save their own renewable electricity. So if we get the federal government to encourage that, all they can do is bribe, encourage and embarrass the provinces. If we could get the federal government to pass a directive like that. That's EU directive 2018 -201. If anybody's interested, we get that kind of directive from the federal government. That'll put pressure and embarrassment on the provinces to loosen up their grids. Alberta and Nova Scotia have moved the furthest along in this area, Ontario and Quebec and Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the big laggards but we have to move that way and oh wreck with our friends in the other coops can push that. We're all voters. We're all voting with our money and our ballots, and the last thing, banks will notice the difference.
Dan Seguin 34:03
Lastly, Dick, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?
Dick Bakker 34:12
Yes, sir.
Dan Seguin 34:13
Okay, what are you reading right now?
Dick Bakker 34:16
Well, two books, one is called treeing energy by Bill Nussey. It's all about the wonderful economics of Home DER technologies. And the other is by my favorite author Guy Vanderhaeghe, August Into Winter. And not a book but fascinating about Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan and Manitoba crime scene set in 39. With the Spanish Civil War in the coming world war two is the backdrop. It's great.
Dan Seguin 34:44
What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Dick Bakker 34:47
There ain't no easy road. Those are the words of a song I love called Jericho by Fred Eagle Smith. My wife gave me a paddle with this phrase on it a few years ago as a birthday present.
Dan Seguin 34:59
Next, who is someone that you admire?
Dick Bakker 35:01
Peggy my, my wife, mother of my children, business partner, best friend and a no BS problem solver.
Dan Seguin 35:09
Okay? What was the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed
Dick Bakker 35:15
Birth of a child who grows into an adult who has a child. Now,
Dan Seguin 35:19
Now, as a result of the pandemic? Many of us are guilty of watching a little too much TV or movies. What is your favorite movie or show? What are you watching right now?
Dick Bakker 35:31
I'd have to say the Danish movie Borgan. It's a Danish TV series on politics and the trade offs and the personalities that shows the human side of difficult decision making. It's great.
Dan Seguin 35:46
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Dick Bakker 35:51
Well, the electricity industry has got the possibility to democratize energy to revitalize communities and especially rural communities. So with renewables and DDR and cooperatives, we can keep the electrons' jobs and profits local. Okay,
Dan Seguin 36:10
Dick, our listeners, if they want to learn more about you, how do they connect?
Dick Bakker 36:15
Probably the best way is to go online and check. www.orec.ca or orec website.
Dan Seguin 36:24
This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Dick Bakker 36:33
I did. Thank you very much, Dan. It's wonderful.
Dan Seguin 36:37
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
We’ve spoken with many experts about electric vehicles (EVs) in Canada, covering everything from adoption trends to announcements, projects, and policies. This episode curates some of the most informative takeaways from these discussions. Envision Canada’s EV future with Daniel Breton of Electric Mobility Canada, Emma Jarratt of Electric Autonomy Canada, Cara Clairman of Plug’nDrive, and Loren McDonald of EVAdoption.
Related links
Daniel Breton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
Electric Mobility Canada: http://https://emc-mec.ca
Emma Jarratt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/
Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/
Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/
Plug’nDrive: http://www.plugndrive.ca
Loren McDonald on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/
EVAdoption: http://www.https://evadoption.com
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In today's podcast episode will focus on some of the most impactful conversations we had about electric vehicles EVs and Canada's mandate to make all light duty vehicles and passenger truck sales 100% zero emission by 2035. Interim electric vehicle targets include 20% of all vehicle sales by 2026 and 60% by 2030. If the stats are any indication, Canadians are getting on board according to s&p global, the share of the new registration of light duty zero emission vehicles in Canada in the third quarter of 2023 reached 13.3%, or one in eight new vehicles. This is up by 40% from the third quarter in 2022. There is no doubt that the federal government believes that zero emission vehicles are part of the solution to a stronger economy, cleaner air and healthier environment and good jobs. To facilitate this. We've all read about the factory announcements in 2023 that will develop a homegrown electric vehicle supply chain. There's Volkswagens 20 billion Ontario battery factory for turning its Oakville auto assembly plant into a 1.8 billion EV industrial park. There's the auto supplier Magna investing half a billion dollars into the EV supply chain right here in Ontario and Sweden's Northolt. Building a multimillion-dollar EV battery plant in Quebec. In today's episode, we're going to revisit some of the EV experts we've talked to on the show over the last couple of years and pull out the best nuggets of wisdom to share with you today. Our first highlight is with Daniel Breton from Electric Mobility Canada about what has spurred EV adoptions and the expected overall benefits to Canadians. What's been the most significant event innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption for the better?
Daniel Breton 02:55
Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that has made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 1015-20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 to 2020. Volume density of the battery has grown eight-fold. So, when you look at batteries today you can have a lot more capacity. And a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60-kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15-kilowatt hour battery from let's say 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that it has more capacity, and smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So, to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So, in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there were hardly any fast chargers on the road. So, for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug-in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger but between Montreal and Quebec, that's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50-kilowatt charger So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charging 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, you know, going from 50 kilowatt to 150-kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatts, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So, things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5-10-15-20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media.
Dan Seguin 06:03
I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100% EV passenger sales by 2030, and all other vehicles by 2040?
Daniel Breton 06:18
Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's huge emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%, because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And, Nova Scotia intends to go. I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by, electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 100 $20 billion from air pollution, and that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So, if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to significantly lower air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in debt note this morning. I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So, there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on, I have to salute Minister Chabang for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly, battery assembly, battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So, we are seeing a real shift. I mean, you have to keep in mind that between 2020 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from being the fourth biggest manufacturer in the world to not even be at the top 10 in 2020. Now because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry. We are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030 or 22. 35 So this is huge.
Dan Seguin 10:02
On this topic of investments. I had the pleasure of speaking with Emma Jarrett, the Executive Editor of Electric Autonomy Canada. She's extensively covered Canada's grown EV manufacturing, infrastructure and battery sectors. Here's what Emma had to say on the topic. There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe why?
Emma Jarrett 10:37
Sure. So, I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause, when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So, to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting for me, I learn a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment. And in our history, we're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So, it's great that we have factories that make batteries. But it would be better if they were all powered by non-emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks, and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals out of the ground. Were all electric. That to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.
Dan Seguin 12:06
Okay, Emma, at the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?
Emma Jarrett 12:26
Sure. So, the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill? And, you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So, when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if, if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will, that for the EV industry, and the clean tech, you know, you can, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter than what the US is, is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonization of Canada's grids $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage and better load prediction and understanding. I think that's really important.
Dan Seguin 14:00
Now your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?
Emma Jarrett 14:14
We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise. The steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big shift to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet. I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast, or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken, and I am was of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.
Dan Seguin 15:03
I couldn't agree more with Emma. Okay, moving on. In this next clip, I speak to Cara Clairman, President and CEO of Plug'n'Drive, who shared her perspective on the barriers that still exist to consumers, choosing EVs and the role municipalities play in moving this needle. Here's what Cara had to say when I asked what the main barriers are to EV ownership.
Cara Clairman 15:36
Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago. And I think the results probably would hold true today as well, asking people about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle. And actually, the number one barrier was price, which surprised us. We expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so, we know that the upfront sticker price is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So, I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called 'Find your EV match', which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so, this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and there still is some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves,
Dan Seguin 17:29
It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate, and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?
Cara Clairman 17:46
Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play and I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So, for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi-unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi-unit buildings being built in their in their territory and that will ensure that the you know roughing is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi-unit and we need to make it possible for these people to plug in there's other roles they can play for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know their own EV policies for their you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging. There's lots of ways that municipalities can help and there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Dan Seguin 19:10
No need to reinvent the wheel. I love this good pun. Now. Last, but certainly not least, is my interview with the EV evangelist himself, Loren McDonnell of EV Adoption. Loren has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology. He joined me on the show to share his thoughts and had some surprising and insightful things to say. What has been the most important or significant recent event in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles?
Loren McDonald 19:50
I would say there's sort of two things that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular and candidate as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck is actually and it's being delivered. Now the first deliveries are starting, like this week of the electric version is, I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons, right. But I think, to go mainstream, this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck, this is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which you know, we'll talk a bit about more later, I'm sure your the bi directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so, gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, may make people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine. And so EVs are kind of having their moment right now, because of that.
Dan Seguin 21:41
Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren gloves off, go for it.
Loren McDonald 21:59
Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like having to charge a smartphone than how you feel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, get most consumers there, their perception is that refueling and recharging an EV is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize, no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with your EV. Assuming you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plugin, wake up and it's charged. And, you know, the, the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers, when they drive a gas car, what do they do, they drive the car down to empty quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to fall. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So, if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third, and maybe actually even don't, maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down, and then you do it right, it sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time through refueling experience for an EV is analogous to a gas car is when you go on those road trips, right? And those either so you know, weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing. But otherwise, I think this is the single biggest educational hurdle that we have because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like the experience to then the light bulb goes, Oh, yeah, this is like my smartphone.
Dan Seguin 24:12
And there you have it. Wise words from our guest, Loren McDonnell, the EV evangelists. Sometimes changing our mindset can help make you see things in a new light. And that's our show for today. If you like what you heard, feel free to revisit the full episodes featuring our renowned EV experts. We'll include links in the show notes so you can find these episodes and guests you're most interested in. And of course, don't forget to subscribe. Again. Thank you for joining me today as this sector and topic continues to evolve and grow. I for one, as a longtime EV owner, I am excited to see what the near future holds for Canada and for consumers. Until next time, thank you for listening to thinkenergy podcast. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant renewable resource, providing 60 per cent of our electricity. But here’s the big question: as Canada looks to an emissions-free future, how can waterpower, one of the oldest power sources on the planet, help us get there? And what do we need to consider? To learn more about our hydroelectric future, we sat down with Gilbert Bennett, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada. Tune in.
Related links
Gilbert Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gilbert-bennett-86166529/
WaterPower Canada: https://waterpowercanada.ca/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So, join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back. Here's a fun fact. Canada's electricity sector is one of the cleanest in the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. Now today, we're going to focus on one of the oldest power sources on the planet. Hydropower generates power when flowing water spins a wheel or turbine. It was used by farmers as far back as ancient Greece for mechanical tasks like grinding grain. Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station that still is in operation today was commissioned right here in Canada's nation's capital in 1891. Generating Station Number 2 is located on Victoria Island in the heart of downtown Ottawa is a stone's throw away from Parliament Hill. It's been providing clean, renewable electricity for more than 130 years. While hydroelectricity first powered our great city and country, it was fossil fuels that quickly became the dominant energy source during the Industrial Age of the 20th century, until nuclear power arrived on the scene in the early 1960s. Now, because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that our water power is our most abundant renewable resource, providing 60% of our country's total electricity. That means six out of every 10 homes in Canada are powered by water. This makes Canada the third largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world, after China and Brazil. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gasses that cause climate change, we must continue to increase the amount of zero emissions electricity we produce and strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels in other sectors. So here is today's big question. Can one of the world's oldest renewable power sources play a major role in Canada's Net Zero future? So, joining us today on the podcast is Gilbert Bennett. He is the president and CEO of WaterPower Canada, founded in 1998. WaterPower Canada is the national nonprofit trade association dedicated to representing the water power industry. Gilbert, welcome to the show.
Gilbert Bennett 03:21
Good morning, Daniel. Great to be here.
Dan Seguin 03:23
Now, you've joined WaterPower Canada at a very interesting time where there's a lot of national and international conversations about developments in hydroelectricity, as countries strive to meet their net zero targets. What is your vision on how water power Canada can participate in Canada's energy transformation and decarbonization?
Gilbert Bennett 03:49
So, we at WaterPower Canada represent the Canadian hydro electric industry, so the owners and operators were the vast majority of the Canadian hydropower fleet. So all the major utilities are members of the association. And we also have our industry partners that design manufacturing constructs for the industry. So given the hydropower provided, over 60% of Canada's electricity supply is going to be the backbone of the electricity industry for decades to come. Our role is to make sure that industry, governments, and the federal government, in particular, understand the important role that we play in the electricity system, and why hydropower is a key advantage of building a renewable future for Canada. So we're going to be aware that we're the dominant renewable supply for the Canadian electricity system. We have important value that's provided in terms of reliability. And I guess the ability to integrate other renewables in the system. So, we're going to be here for decades. We're going to be playing a major role in that transformation and the decarbonization of our economy.
Dan Seguin 04:57
Now, what's the value proposition that hydroelectric power brings to a clean, affordable and NetZero future?
05:07
Right. So, most importantly, we have key attributes. And I sort of touched on that in our last question there, we're firm and reliable. So, think about hydropower, just firm generation, there's water in the reservoir, we're going to be producing power at the power plant. It's not a question of is the wind blowing, is the sun shining? It's long term, high capacity, firm generation. And when I think about high-capacity storage for hydropower, in larger, the larger hydro systems, we're talking about 1000s of megawatts of power generation, delivered for months on end with large reservoir storage. So that's an important attribute that contributes to the reliability of our Canadian electricity system. And secondly, is dispatchable. So, we can adjust output of the plant as necessary to meet needs as they change your day to day order in order to balance out the deliveries from other renewables. So, in the absence of a fossil fuel fleet, hydropower with those capabilities is really important for us to maintain reliability and deliveries on our electricity system.
Dan Seguin 06:18
Gilbert, some people still believe that investments in renewable energy translate to higher electricity costs. But I read on your website that provinces with the highest hydropower installed capacity have the lowest electricity costs, perhaps you can break down why that is and what you think the public should know about hydropower that they may not already know.
Gilbert Bennett 06:48
So, if we look at the provinces of Canada with the highest installed base hydropower, they have facilities that were built with large scale capacity and large-scale storage, and they were built in the 60s and 70s. And they still operate reliably today. So, we look back to sort of the major construction that happened in the Canadian hydropower sector. Several decades ago, those long-term reliable assets are now producing really low cost energy, a lot of financing has been addressed from those facilities, and they have low operating costs, the cost of maintaining those facilities is, is a lot lower than the cost of building new ones today. So those those legacy assets are really important contributors to the low rates, we see in the, what I'll call the hydro dependent jurisdictions.
Dan Seguin 07:37
Very insightful. Thanks, Gilbert. Now, I know water power, Canada has commissioned some research projects. Can you maybe talk about some of those, and what makes them important to your sector and your goals?
Gilbert Bennett 07:53
So those studies, and there were four of them that were completed through last year with important financial support from Natural Resources Canada, and fortunately, they address some important topics to discuss hydropower in general. So, the first one deals with this question that we just talked about, what's the role that hydropower facilities play in ensuring reliable service for customers. So now we're getting into some technical points, inertia load, following regulation, frequency and voltage control. So those are things that customers don't think about and don't have to worry about, because they're really important questions or system operators, the people who manage and operate electricity grids. So, it's important for policymakers who are drafting the rules through the electricity sector to understand that these capabilities are essential to delivering reliable service. And in the absence of fossil generation, delivering those capabilities to a large extent is going to fall to the hydro fleet. It's important to understand the services that are uniquely provided by hydro facilities, some of the variable renewables don't have these capabilities. And the services that are provided by the hydro fleet are going to be much more important in the future as we retire the fossil fuel fleet across Canada. So that's, that's the first one. The second study looked at the potential for pumped storage hydro in Canada. And that's a topic that we haven't talked about a lot. It's a mature technology that's used in many places in the world. But with our conventional hydropower fleet here in Canada, we haven't had to worry about too much, but it is becoming an issue as a way to store energy from variable renewables and make it available when needed factor projects under consideration in Ontario. Today, there are two major projects in Ontario, one led by OPG and Northland power, and the TC energy's project in Georgian Bay is another one that probably would be familiar to listeners in Ontario for sure. There are also projects in Alberta. They're looking at that technology. So potential for pump storage as a large-scale storage opportunity to firm up variable renewables. It's an important topic elsewhere in the world. And it's one that we thought would be useful to highlight attention here in Canada. Third study looks at the potential for updating our existing facilities to increase the output of those facilities. So, we've identified 1000s of megawatts of potential that can be realized by replacing the existing turbines and generators and existing plants. So, the point here is that we're using existing dams, reservoirs and structures, while updating the technology inside the plant. So that's a cost-effective way to increase the efficiency of the plant or to increase capacity on the grid. And then finally, the last report looks at the cost of energy from previous generation sources. And we introduced the point here that variable renewables are inexpensive energy sources, but there are additional costs that will be incurred in the electricity systems making them dispatchable and available. And those are, those are features that are built into hydro generation. So, we want to raise the point here that the grid services that I talked about a second ago, need to be factored in when we're comparing various generation sources. So these points are really important for policymakers to understand, well, they're drafting the rules for the industry, and ultimately, for the services that our customers are gonna be relying on. Lots and lots of detail there. And if anybody's interested in taking a look at those reports, are all posted on our website at waterpowercanada.ca.
Dan Seguin 11:28
Okay, I really like this next question here. What are some projects and innovations that you're seeing from your members that you feel may usher in a new era for waterpower?
Gilbert Bennett 11:42
I think we look back at our aspirational goal in Canada to be net zero by 2050. So, talk about that on a fairly regular basis. Various experts have said that we'll need to double our electricity supply to achieve that goal. So just think about that for a second 25 or 30 years, we're going to rebuild the industry that's taken 125 years to build the infrastructure Canada that we have today. So, you know, that's a daunting challenge. And I think it'd be the first sign of the scale of that effort is probably from Hydro Quebec, where they've indicated that they plan to spend somewhere between 155 and $185 billion dollars on their electricity system between now and 2035, in order to set the stage and Quebec to be net zero by 2050. That level of investment, that scale of development of their electricity system, I think is a huge one. And it's one that if we're going to achieve our or aspirational goal is going to be replicated in multiple jurisdictions when we look at significant investments required to set the stage to electrify our economy. So that in itself is a, you know, is a hugely important error for I see the electricity sector in general, feel comfortable saying that water power is going to be an important piece of that.
Dan Seguin 13:07
Now, if memory serves me right, your organization released a collection of success stories of partnerships between utilities, energy companies, indigenous businesses, and organizations affiliated with First Nations. Gilbert, what can you tell us about the path forward? And its intersection is clean energy and reconciliation?
Gilbert Bennett 13:34
Right. So that report, branding indigenous businesses is also on our website. And it's a collection of case studies from members from our member companies that provide concrete examples of how WaterPower Canada member companies are working with indigenous businesses, First Nations, both as partners and owners and developers of projects. So, I think in the context of reconciliation, it should be fairly clear that projects and activities that happen on traditional land should benefit people who you know, who own that land. And here we have some specific examples of how things can be done and are being done to benefit indigenous communities and businesses. So, it's the way we need to move forward with development. It's an opportunity to work together, it's an opportunity to jointly understand issues, opportunities, challenges with projects, and to really come to a common understanding of how to do business together, both between, you know, our member companies and indigenous communities, important step forward. And I think the way things are going to be done in the future.
Dan Seguin 14:43
Okay, moving on to some challenges. It seems that the International Energy Agency expects hydropower generation to increase 50% by 2040. Is the hydropower sector, like many, having difficulty attracting new talent? What are the ways your sector is working to entice youth to consider hydroelectricity to keep up with the growing demand?
Gilbert Bennett 15:14
So, this is a huge challenge for not just our industry, but the Canadian economy in general, we have a retiring workforce, as our population ages. And we're not replacing people across multiple sectors in our economy. Certainly, an issue in the trades for construction and operations. So, a concern in engineering is a concern in most professions, that we're not replacing our workforce. And for our industry, we have a couple of associations that are really focused on this question. So, shout out for electricity, Human Resources, Canada here, they are playing a key role in highlighting opportunities, and reasons why people who are entering the workforce, you know, should look at a career in our sector. It's a common theme from trade unions to say, look, you know, here are these unionized positions, and the trades and the construction trades. And then the operating trades are high paying jobs, they have great working conditions. And they're a great way to build people's career. And it's probably something that we haven't talked about for a long time. These are ways to highlight opportunities in the industry, apprentice programs on projects are another way to highlight opportunities to get people entering the workforce. And then finally, you can link back to our discussion on indigenous communities where training, education, employment opportunities associated with projects are available for residents in nearby communities. But that's as most project developers today would look at that as a key way to both build workforce, and to build economic capability in the, in the communities where they're doing work. It's a big challenge. And we certainly have to, you know, find ways to get people into the trains to get things done. We're going to be talking about this one a lot.
Dan Seguin 17:04
Now, I'm curious to find out what makes our hydropower unique, isn't our production generation water rich reserves, or our cold climate that sets Canada's hydropower apart from other countries?
Gilbert Bennett 17:20
So, first of all, we look at the resource that we have, we have 7% of the world's renewable freshwater. So, 7% of the water that falls on the face of the planet, lands in Canada, and we have 5% of the world's population. So those were important to have the raw resources in the first place. So that certainly we have that in spades, but also the large landmass, we have favorable topography for hydropower sites, so the right to the terrain and most of Canada is favorable to hydropower development. We're a large country with a small population, but lots of water. So, we have a great resource. And I think that that's probably the key reason why we've, you know, got to where we are.
Dan Seguin 18:08
Okay, that's good, Gilbert. Now, do you expect hydropower to remain Canada's largest source of reliable, renewable power for the foreseeable future? What is something you want the government to know right now about how investing in hydroelectricity can help it achieve its netzero goals?
Gilbert Bennett 18:32
Okay, so the first, the first most important point is that the attributes of your hydropower fleet, the technical capabilities are really important in continuing to ensure that electricity, services for customers are reliable, cost effective and renewable. Now, our future is going to be all in with every non emitting and renewable option. So hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, all of these alternatives to fossil fuels, and others are going to be critical for us to achieve our net zero, or near zero aspiration. Hydro today is the backbone of our fleet. It has important services, and it's important to glue the rest of the system together. So that's probably the most important point and then we would say that development of hydropower facilities are long term investments, they have long term development cycles. So we need to be able to find ways to move forward with project approvals with upgrades with expansions you know that deliver low cost service to customers. Now we also recommend with note that our generator members are either major utilities or their producers themselves. So, getting the maximum value from our assets is going to be really important as well and the industry is going to continue to look at existing assets to see how we can get more out of those. So that may be increasing the capacity of sites using, you know, improving efficiency, being strategic about where you know where projects get built. And then finally understanding where hydro fits compared to other technologies. And there's a given that there will be opportunities for those other technologies to play important roles in this electricity system as well. When we look at sort of doubling the electricity system, there's going to be a lot of investment all around. And I think what we would say is that, you know, back to the fundamental point, hydropower is the backbone of the generating fleet in Canada. And it provides, you know, key services that are going to be needed now, well into the future.
Dan Seguin 20:35
Finally, Gilbert, we always end our interviews with some rapid-fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?
Gilbert Bennett 20:44
Let's go. Okay.
Dan Seguin 20:46
What are you reading right now?
Gilbert Bennett 20:48
Nothing on the bookshelf today. So, I will say the last binge read I had was on vacation last summer, and it would have been one of Tom Clancy novels.
Dan Seguin 20:57
Okay, good. Now, Gilbert, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Gilbert Bennett 21:04
I don't. We don't have one. This one is a standing family joke. The name of the boat would be Ylime, which is my daughter Emily's name spelled backwards. That's a standing joke for a while with the family.
Dan Seguin 21:18
Here's another question, Gilbert. Who is someone that you truly admire?
Gilbert Bennett 21:23
All right, so let's look back in history to someone who dealt with challenges on a similar scale to what we're talking about now. And I think I'd have to look to maybe someone like General Leslie Groves, from the Manhattan Project. So those of you have seen Oppenheimer would have a pretty clear handle about how he got things moving to that project.
Dan Seguin 21:46
Okay, moving on here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Gilbert Bennett 21:52
Oh wow. Okay, so I'm an electrical engineer. So, some real things are more like magic to a lot of people. I would say for me, 15 years of effort of the Muskrat Falls project in Labrador, close to the breaker to put the first unit online, looks like magic after all that effort.
Dan Seguin 22:11
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Gilbert Bennett 22:18
Oh, well, I would say switching from a large office setting to a virtual team. And you know, of course, during my time on the Muskrat Project, we had, you know, 300 people on our team, and you're interacting with them on a daily basis. And now you go to a virtual team, and you're doing pretty well, everything like we're doing here today remotely. That was a major adjustment for me.
Dan Seguin 22:40
Okay. Now, we've all been watching a little more TV, a little more Netflix. What is your favorite show? Or series?
Gilbert Bennett 22:49
Oh, I just got through the last season of Slow Horses on Apple TV. So Misfits, that and MI five, who find a way to get things done. It was a pretty, pretty enjoyable series for me.
Dan Seguin 23:03
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Gilbert Bennett 23:08
Oh, wow. I would say in a nutshell, everything. Sort of the scope, the scale, the challenges, the opportunities that we've talked about, I think are all are all exciting, and helping to, you know, find a way to retool our, our entire society so that it runs on renewables, I think is a huge is a huge challenge. And it was definitely pretty exciting.
Dan Seguin 23:30
Well, Gilbert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Gilbert Bennett 23:42
Oh, two ways. Visit our website waterpowercanada.ca. And we're on LinkedIn as well. So follow the association. And keep up with what's going on in the industry.
Dan Seguin 23:54
Again, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.,
Gilbert Bennett 23:59
Oh this was great. It was great to be with you Daniel. Thanks so much.
Dan Seguin 24:06
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Ice storms, blizzards, and high winds can all lead to extended power outages, turning bad weather into a crisis for those affected. And Canada has had several intense cold weather events in recent years. In part 2 of mitigating the impacts of winter, experts Guy Lepage, Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Julie Lupinacci, Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, and Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, share how to prepare for a winter disaster.
Related links
● Guy Lepage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289
● Julie Lupinaccii on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci
● Jim Pegg on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
● Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/
● Envair Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
● Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness
● Canadian Red Cross emergency preparedness and recovery: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/be-ready-emergency-preparedness-and-recovery/
● Envari electric vehicles and infrastructure: https://envari.com/electric-vehicle-infrastructure/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
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To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Welcome back, everyone. And thank you for joining us for part two of our winter highlight reel, where we revisit clips from previous interviews discussing the unique impact our Canadian winters have on our energy sector. Although Canadians are accustomed to cold and snowy winters, Recent years have brought more intense weather events into the mix. From heavy snowfall to ice storms to bone chilling subzero temperatures, these factors are driving the need for emergency preparedness and protocols to ensure public safety. Whether you're snugged at home or navigating the elements during your commute, utility companies like hydro Ottawa are pushing for increased reliability of their system. The goal is to keep your power on and keep you informed before, during and after outages. This commitment also extends to supporting the growing presence of electric vehicles on the road, emphasizing reliability in electric transportation. In our first clip, I spoke to Guy Lepage, a volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross disaster management, he sheds light on how the Red Cross provides support for those who may face devastating experiences. Let's dive into this conversation. Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters. I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters. What is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?
Guy Lepage 02:17
House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times people leave stuff on the stove and it spreads. Fire starts to spread, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assess the family to make sure they have lodging, they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And we're an emergency service, so after three days, people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any kind of disaster and and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building gets evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter in a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.
Dan Seguin 04:29
Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes?
Guy Lepage 04:42
I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you leave something unattended and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where indeed, mom and dad and three kids living in an apartment, and one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out, get out. So we responded, they went to a friend's location, so we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has to sit on her face because of the fire. And she starts crying and teardrops are rolling down through her soot stained cheeks and I'll always remember that image, because she was crying because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches, cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis, we will of course, but if you can prevent it, that's even better.
Dan Seguin 06:21
Okay. so next up, speaking on the topic of extreme weather, and preparing for emergencies. I have a clip from my interview on what electricity customers want with Julie Lupinacci, Hydro Ottawa's Chief Customer Officer. Julie speaks to how Hydro Ottawa is actively working on leveraging advanced technologies in order to improve communications during crisis situations. When customers are out of power, she also shares some key things to focus on when preparing an emergency kit for your family. Here's what Julie had to say. We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major, major weather events these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?
Julie Lupinacci 07:19
Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the '98 ice storm and I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would say is Hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our Chief Electricity Distribution Officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology. So that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple minutes of the storm hitting but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out and we are looking to be working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out so similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers, either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts. that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll, you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid, and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system, again, through through whether it's an SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes, so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently, right. And if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out, make sure phones are charged, make sure that you've got blankets, make sure you know where your flashlights and your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydroottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted sorry, Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program, this was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on either to their house or to the community.
Dan Seguin 11:42
Now tell me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies and outages?
Julie Lupinacci 11:51
Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do. One, I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But where are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place. But you know where these flashlights are right. I know if anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't list them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you and your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like hydro is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for Worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power's out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it.
Dan Seguin 13:59
NExt up, I have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions. In my interview with Jim he shared all about electric vehicles, including the benefits and challenges of ownership in Canada. In this upcoming clip, he shares some strategies around optimizing electric vehicle usage in winter. Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?
Jim Pegg 14:41
So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there's different different weather patterns and so on, but cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called pre-conditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier, it was a driver training, you know, simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations, all those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with you know, with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, you know, and if, if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C, D, E, F, and G will get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing, you know, increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleet's needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.
Dan Seguin 16:26
Now, I may be biased but as a proud owner of an EV, who has been driving in all sorts of wintry conditions, I can say that the benefits of EV driving far outweigh the challenges around battery usage in the cold. So if you're considering purchasing an EV on your own, I can tell you that you won't regret it. And as Jim said, the technology is always improving. Finally, folks, thank you for joining me today for part two of our winter highlight reel. And thank you for another incredible year! Oh, and before I forget, I'd love to hear from you, our listeners. If you have any feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com. I'd love to hear from you. I can't wait to continue this journey with you, so we'll be back in two weeks. On Tuesday, January 2, to kickoff 2024 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. And, as always, there will be some surprises. Don't forget to subscribe to stay in the loop. Until next time, folks. Happy holidays. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Winter isn’t always a wonderland. In Canada, the season brings a flurry of unique challenges, heightened in recent years by extreme weather events. This episode, the first of two parts to close out the year, revisits thinkenergy’s coolest clips sharing energy considerations and solutions to help mitigate the impacts of winter on our homes, infrastructure, and safety. Hear from experts Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, and Nick Levac, FLM at Hydro One.
Related links
Shawn Carr on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
Nick Levac on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/
Hydro Ottawa:
Why everyone’s talking about heat pumps: https://hydroottawa.com/en/blog/why-everyones-talking-about-heat-pumps
Warming up to cold climate heat pumps: https://envari.com/stories/community-centre/
Hydro Ottawa Tree Trimming:
https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/community-safety/tree-trimming
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Are you prepared for a prolonged power outage? Extreme weather is more common due to climate change. Canada’s experienced disastrous tornadoes, wildfires, and wind and ice storms over the past few years alone, leading to massive disruption to utilities and public safety. Be prepared, stay informed. Dive into the urgent discussion on emergency preparedness in episode 125 of thinkenergy, featuring insights from Hydro Ottawa’s CEO, Bryce Conrad, and Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Guy Lepage.
Related links
Bryce Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety
Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. We're going to take a different direction for today's show. For the first time, I don't have a guest lined up. Instead, on today's show, I'm going to talk about a topic that is close to my heart as a communicator in the electricity sector. And it's something that affects us all. prolonged power outages caused by major weather events. More specifically, I want to talk about what each of us can do to take personal responsibility during a crisis, and how we can all take steps to plan for prolonged outages due to an ice storm, a tornado, heat waves or major wind storms. Now, most of the time, power outages are over shortly after they begin. But with a major storm outages can last much longer. We've all experienced being without power for an extended period of time. And we know that extreme weather events have become more frequent and intense due to climate change. And wow, Canada has certainly experienced his share of national disasters recently, something that we all felt for the first time was the effect of forest fires this past summer. According to the Canadian interagency Forest Fire Center, there were approximately 6623 fires recorded across Canada in 2023, burning a total of 18 million hectares. These fires wiped out entire forest communities, and all infrastructure that supports those that live in these areas including their electricity. Here in Ottawa, we only experienced poor air quality, unlike anything I have ever seen in my lifetime living in the nation's capital. Also in Ottawa this year, there was an Easter ice storm in April, tornadoes that touched down in the south end of the city in the summer, and a number of lightning strikes in June, July and August that broke records and caused a number of outages in the region. It reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss, Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa, back in February 2022. At that time, I asked him how concerned he was with climate change. Listen to his response. You'll think he just said this yesterday. Here's what he had to say then.
Bryce Conrad 03:03
So let's just state categorically that climate change is real. You know, as I sit here today, it's minus 27,000 degrees outside. People go "oh global warming, why is it so damn cold? And of course, you just want to smack people that say things like that. But God's honest truth is climate change is not about the day to day weather, it's about weather patterns. It's about how, you know, in the past, we've had wind storms and ice storms, we've had eight tornadoes, including one in downtown Nepean. You know, we've had a one in 100 year flood, followed by a one in 1000 year flood. We've had heat waves that have stretched and taxed our system. And all of this is just like, quite frankly, within the past five years. So that's what climate change means. It means unpredictable, changing, dramatically changing weather patterns. And if you run a utility, like I do, or like we do, you don't like that. You know, our infrastructure is built to withstand X. It's not well not built to withstand x plus 30%, or x plus 50%. So, you know, when a wind storm comes through, the infrastructure is ready to sustain winds up to 90 miles an hour or something like that. Well, you know, we all saw what happened when tornadoes came through, you know, 130 miles or 160 miles an hour, right? Those poles snapped like twigs. That's what climate change means. So, you know, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. And, you know, it's something that we have to start to build into our plans as to how we build better in the future. Sure, so are we building our infrastructure to withstand 90 mile an hour winds? Are we building them to withstand 150 mile an hour winds? While there's a cost difference to that, obviously, but the answer is, yeah, we've got to do a better job of building stronger, more resilient infrastructure. If you're building you know, if you saw during the floods, the Chaudiere Facility, which is our new generating asset down at Chaudiere Falls. You know, you were seeing for the first time in history, all 50 of the gates of the ring dam were open. And there was more, I think it was two Olympic swimming pools were passing through the gates every second. The waterfall, the water, the speed in the waterfall was faster than the Niagara Falls. Like I mean, these are things that shouldn't be happening in downtown Ottawa, but have happened three times since I've been here, and that's 10 years. So if anyone wants to have a debate about whether or not climate change is real, call me up. Let's have that conversation. Because it's very real, and it's going to dramatically impact our future. In terms of the energy transition, I think I talked a bit about it. But you know, when we bottle out, and look at what our future looks like, 50 years from now, our infrastructure looks fundamentally different than it does today. It's in fundamentally different places than it is today. You know, we're going to rely upon artificial intelligence, machine learning. You know, each and every one of those, like, everything will be censored up. So, you know, the idea is that, as opposed to us rolling a track to fix something that's broken or down, we can sort of simply reroute it from the control center. So yes, we still have to get out there and fix what's broken. But for you, the customer of Hydro Ottawa, you actually won't notice the impact because the power will have switched over to another source instantaneously. That's the goal.
Dan Seguin 07:09
Some powerful words from Bryce Conrad, President, CEO of Hydro Ottawa, about climate change, and its effects on the electricity grid. I found his comments about how the advancement of artificial intelligence could result in a self healing grid. And the customer wouldn't even know that there was an outage because the system would be smart enough to know to reroute the power from another source. Sounds futuristic indeed, but something worthy to work towards. Since this is likely a couple of decades off, I want to spend a little bit of time sharing how utilities tackled power outages and restoration today. It's important to understand how it all works. You may be surprised to learn that utilities observe and monitor weather conditions, staying on top of changing weather patterns, so they can alert customers about possible outages in advance. Weather warnings are issued and Hydro Ottawa crews are put on standby to respond to emergencies. During the Ottawa ice storm back in April 2023. More than 225 internal and external field resources were called up to repair damage across the city of Ottawa. This was the second highest use of resources in hydraulic was historic, and it proves the point that utilities are taking these weather events seriously. To provide some perspective, I think it helps understand how utilities assess and restore power after a storm. It's important for us to know this so we can manage our expectations. In today's world we want it all now on demand. It's good to know what happens behind the scenes and the rationale that determines why some customers get restored before others. After a major storm causes widespread outages. The first job of the utility is to investigate the extent of the damage and determine the resources required to restore the power. Here's a general breakdown of how many utilities prioritize restoration after they've performed an assessment of the damage. Priority One: respond to public safety issues and emergencies. Priority two: fix critical electrical system infrastructure like substations and main power lines. Priority three: restore power to critical infrastructure and emergency services like hospitals, airports, water and sewage treatment plants. Priority four: repair power lines that will restore power to the largest number of customers. Priority five: we store smaller clusters of neighborhoods. And finally, priority six: respond to individual homes and businesses that may have sustained damage to their own electrical equipment. Public and personal safety are top of mind for restoration crews who must also deal with the aftermath of any storm, including falling trees, branches, windy conditions, heavy fog, thunder, lightning, and icy roads, all of which make restoring power difficult. And while restoring power is their main purpose, it's important that these brave women and men do not put their lives at risk. conditions have to be safe for them to work. So now, let's get to the part where we find out what we can do as individuals before, during and after a major storm that has caused widespread damage and a power outage. To kick off this section, I'm going to first play a clip from an interview I did earlier this year with Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Guy has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada, and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. I asked Guy during our conversation how Canadians can better prepare for emergencies in general, and especially during prolonged outages, being self-sufficient for three days is still the golden rule. Here's what he had to say.
Guy Lepage 11:37
Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan to sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours (three days) from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire whatever the situation. Can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bathe, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water and we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and two liters. To wash and bathe. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener. Have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio so you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight. There was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, You know last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition. I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half. What am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication. Enough pet food and enough water enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.
Dan Seguin 14:17
That was Guy Lepgage, disaster management volunteer with Canadian Red Cross, talking about his experience as a person who has had his boots on the ground during numerous disasters here in Canada and abroad. He mentioned something very interesting, and I'm going to leave it with you today. As probably the most important takeaway from this show, come up with a three day plan. A great place to start and I'm a little biased here is to go to hydro ottawa.com and visit the emergency preparedness section. There. You will find resources and information about what to consider when building that plan. I hope this episode has helped you consider having those necessary conversations around emergency preparedness. I know this is a departure from our usual podcast programming, but it's an important topic as winter weather approaches. Now, I hope you found this episode worthwhile and informative. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The renewable revolution is here. Scientists, entrepreneurs, and policymakers—including Indigenous and industry leaders—are accelerating the transition to clean energy. But does Canada unanimously agree on the path to a more sustainable future? Philippe Dunsky, founder of Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors, joins thinkenergy to discuss. From climate counsels and regional challenges to greener business practices and how to positively impact the clean energy and climate sectors. Listen to Episode 124 today.
Related links
Philippe Dunsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philippedunsky/
Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors: https://www.dunsky.com/
Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dunsky-energy-climate-advisors/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Right now, there are scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, indigenous and industry leaders, helping to shape the direction that Canada will take to accelerate a transition to clean energy. Everywhere you look, whether it's academia, municipal, provincial, or federal governments, there's another council or committee being formed to address the most pressing issues of our time, climate change, from transitioning to sustainable energy sources, electrifying transportation, and improving energy efficiency to protecting our natural environment and reducing carbon emissions. One thing is for certain our country is embracing the renewable revolution, like never before. But those with seats at the decision table know that it must be done responsibly, and affordable. As we know, every region of Canada is unique and presents its own set of challenges and opportunities when it comes to tackling climate change, and ways to implement clean energy. So here is today's big question. How did we get such a vast and diverse country like Canada to agree on a pathway forward to a cleaner, greener and more sustainable energy future? Joining us today is Philippe Dunsky of Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors, a consultancy firm that Philippe founded. It supports government, utilities, corporations across North America to accelerate their transition to clean energy. Phillippe, is the co chair of Canada's new Canada electricity Advisory Council, the co chair of efficiency Canada, and the director of the greater Montreal Climate Fund. He also previously chaired the Quebec government electrification Working Group. Welcome to the show, Philippe. Let's start by asking you this. Having just gone over some of your accomplishments, where does this passion for clean energy and climate come from? Where did it start?
Philippe Dunsky 02:44
So, so great to be here. By the way, thank you so much for having me. It started, I guess, I guess very early on. I'm Jewish background and grew up with, you know, endless stories about the Holocaust. And somehow that kind of morphed into just a general interest for world affairs and for big challenges, big societal challenges. And then as I was growing up, those became really focused on environmental issues. So that was the genesis. I became very, very interested in environmental issues. And then through that, and climate change in particular, as probably the greatest challenge of my generation, and for my generation. And then, I guess the other thing is, I've come to discover that I'm a pretty analytical guy. So I'm not a no great protester, I'm not a great to great movement leader, I tend to see a lot of gray, not so much black and white. And so that's how I ended up deciding to get involved in these issues. But, you know, in my own way through more of an analytical lens,
Dan Seguin 03:55
Okay, you've served and are serving on numerous councils, committees and boards. Can you tell us what has been the biggest takeaway you've learned through each collaboration? And how has it changed you?
Philippe Dunsky 04:11
Yeah, because each one does change you and changes your perspectives. Because ultimately, the biggest takeaway is that no matter how much I think I know this stuff and know this stuff. Well, and I've been working on energy issues for over 30 years now. And so, you know, I always end up thinking that I know the answer. What we discover is that, you know, there's not a single answer, there are many perspectives. And if you can combine knowledge with multiple perspectives, then you can come up with something that's hopefully going to be closer to that, you know, to that truth, or whatever you want to call it. My big learning is that every time you go into something like this, you go in with an open mind and an open heart. And if you do that, and you're listening to others perspectives, then you're bound to land on something that's a hell of a lot smarter. And then what you initially thought coming into it?
Dan Seguin 05:02
Okay, cool. Now, you were appointed chair for a recently formed Canada electricity Advisory Council. Can you tell our listeners who's on it? What is the mandate? And just how big of an undertaking is this?
Philippe Dunsky 05:19
Sure, I can start with the last question, by the way, that the undertaking, it's a really big issue, it's a really big challenge. On the other hand, the undertaking itself is time limited, it's a 12 month thing. So I'm a pumpkin and I turned into a pumpkin in May. It's been five months now. So I got another seven to go. From that perspective, that's the timing that we're looking at. Okay, Council itself is a group of 18 Canadians from across the country, every single, every single province, no exception. It's, it's extraordinary mix of individuals with an extraordinary mix of experience and perspective. So I'd say roughly half of council members are either current or former utility executives. The other half is a bit more of an eclectic mix of former regulators, we have people involved in the power production side of things, we have first nations leaders, so indigenous leaders, and a couple of others with different perspectives to bring to the table. But the really important thing here, I think, is that you're looking at the leadership level from every single province across the country. And that makes for really, really enlightening and challenging conversations as well. And then I guess you asked about the purpose or the mandate of the council. So I'll put it at a very, very fundamental level as a country, we're trying to largely decarbonize electricity by sometime in the middle of the 2030s. And we're looking to grow electricity, very substantially to decarbonize the rest of the economy. By 2050. That's that dual set of goals is at the heart of our mandate. And our mandate is to figure out what the feds can and must do. And at the same time, what can and must be done by others in the country, to help make this an easier journey, a more affordable journey. And ultimately, a more successful journey on the way there.
Dan Seguin 07:22
Okay, great segue here. Now, with respect to Canada's goal to achieve a 100%, Net Zero electricity system by 2035, you stated, "Is it better to optimize than maximize? Can you maybe break that down for us? And can you give us some examples?
Philippe Dunsky 07:41
Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, what I mean by that is, if all we do is say we want to decarbonize, there are many, many paths to do that. And, you know, we can say, hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna build, build, build, build, build until there's no tomorrow. And we could probably get there, doing nothing but that, but we'll get there in a less affordable way, than if we really think through the intricacies of what needs to be done. Yes, on adding, also on subtracting, so actually becoming more efficient in the way we use energy, relying more on consumers' involvement in the marketplace to achieve some of those goals. I just think there are quick ways to get to the goal, that ultimately, are going to cost too much and or create reliability issues. And if that happens, there'll be a backlash. And we'll never get to the goal. Alternatively, there, they're thoughtful ways that maybe aren't exactly the way we've always done things in the past, but that involve a lot more complexity and being able to wrestle with complexity and stuff. But ways that are focused on keeping this as affordable as possible, ultimately, for everyone across Canada, making sure that we do this in a way that's reliable, so we can always count on electricity being there. And in doing it in a way that actually involves some cooperation, as well.
Dan Seguin 09:04
So the electricity Council fulfills the minister's mandate to establish a pan Canadian grid Council. How viable is a pan Canadian electricity grid? Or are you seeing your movement in regional interconnections?
Philippe Dunsky 09:22
Yeah, so it definitely looks regional. Let me be really clear about that. And I know the original Originally, the name for the council was supposed to be the pan Canadian grid Council, as you pointed out, you'll also notice it, it was not it does not have that name. And there's a reason for that. And, and I will say, you know, and I've said this publicly many times, I don't believe that that's the right answer. We definitely need a lot more cooperation. at the regional level. There are a lot of opportunities for provinces to exchange more to continue exchanging with the US by the way, and this isn't, you know, we're not caught within, within our borders. So we have to do more on the cooperation side to keep costs down again, as low as possible to make this as smart and thoughtful and as achievable as possible. But that doesn't involve, you know, I love the old Coast to Coast Railway analogy. It's nice, it's working for railways. We're not talking about a single grid that goes coast to coast that's just not in the cards.
Dan Seguin 10:28
Now, for those who are not aware, can you tell us about your firm, its purpose, and what makes your approach unique, and particularly effective?
Philippe Dunsky 10:40
Sure, I mean, I'm thrilled talking about my firm. So these days, I spend so much time talking about look Council, which is kind of like my evenings and nighttime job, or evenings and weekend job. But my day job is running my firm, my firm is a group of over 50 professionals. Now, I think we're about 55 now that are dedicated exclusively to supporting clients in their clean energy transitions. And our clients typically are utilities and governments, increasingly large corporate clients as well, across Canada and across the US. So ultimately we work with utilities and governments that are in the throes of this energy transition, that are trying to figure it out. They're trying to find a way to help their customers navigate through it and a way for themselves to navigate through it, to define what the business case is for them and what their proper role is in it. And, and then we also have helped them in some of the nitty gritty. So, you know do you get customers involved on the demand side management side to reduce the pressure on right on the big build out? And all the capital is involved there? You know, what do we need to do to electrify vehicles, for example. So we've developed for some places, charging, charging infrastructure plans and charging infrastructure, business, business plans, strategies, investment plans, we work with, with our, with our customers in helping helping to decarbonize buildings through whether it's direct electrification, or hybrid heating systems without just the natural gas, depending on the on the need, we work with to decarbonize industrial loads, as well. And oftentimes, we're working with our utility customers to help them help their industrial customers decarbonize. So all of those things, and more and of course, planning out the whole transformation of the electricity system on the supply side, is a big part of it. That's a lot of what we do. It's hard to put in a single sentence. But the interesting thing, I guess, for us is, you know, ultimately, we're a consulting shop that is exclusively focused on the clean energy transition, we do nothing other than that. And, and I think that makes us pretty darn good at it.
Dan Seguin 13:02
That's perfect. Phillippe, your company emphasizes support in four focus areas, buildings, mobility, Industry and Energy. How were those identified? And can you maybe provide some specific projects or initiatives that have made a significant difference in the sector's?
Philippe Dunsky 13:25
Yeah, sure. And those sectors are, you know, 80 to 90%, of the energy equation, right. So they've grown over time, in a very deliberate manner, we started out working on the building side of the equation. So you know, what we call DSM or in Ontario, you call it CDM. Just to be different. But so we started out working on that. And then over time, we added mobility, especially electric mobility to our portfolio of expertise, and then built out from there, including on the generation and TND side, in terms of some examples. I mean, I'll be honest with you, we do well over 100 projects a year now. So there are a lot of different ones with a pretty large variety. But for example, I actually just came back from meeting with one of our clients, a large, large electric utility, where we've helped them to revamp their whole CDM approach. So that's, you know, from top to bottom, on the strategy side, on the regulatory side, and then on what the programs actually look like and how they operate and who they involve. In Ontario, we actually completed something I think is absolutely fascinating. I really enjoyed reading it. And that was a study of the potential of Drs. So distributed energy resources in Ontario to essentially keep the lights on, you know, we found 1000s of megawatts of exploitable resources there that you don't need to build because they're already there on the customer side of the meter. So stuff like that. We've worked with a lot of states in the US including California and New York designing, designing measure is to help their customers finance, the transition on their side, we've done a lot of work with, with utility executives helping them think through the strategy side of this, how am I going to actually the change management? How may I change my own utility to go from what it was in that steady state environment of the past 75 years to something that is a completely different beast in a very much more dynamic world. And it's focused on customer service and, and focused on transitioning the energy system as a whole. So, again, a pretty broad array of, of projects, but all of them. Absolutely. Absolutely exciting. And, and fascinating for me to be involved in and learn from.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Okay, now, wondering if you can speak to the importance of responsible and sustainable practices in the clean energy sector? And how has your company prioritized these principles in his work?
Philippe Dunsky 16:00
Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, look, the world right now is looking to the energy sector to lead and to transform itself. And as we do that, you know, leaders have to have to walk the talk. So, you know, I'm, I'm very proud that most, if not all of my clients are doing that right now within their own operations. And my firm does that in our operations. I try to do that, in my own life, I've been driving nav for seven years. Now, it's a great way for me to, to, to lead by example, but also, quite frankly, to get a head and on the experience curve, and actually understand from personal experience, all right, what are the challenges of of EV ownership and what needs to happen to make it a more seamless process? So you know, that's on the personal side, my company, we're actually a B Corp. So we went through a process to be certified by an independent organization that looks at all of our practices, from soup to nuts. And in our score, our B Corp score has increased. Year over year, I think we started out somewhere about 80 Something points, and now we're at 119. So you know, it's just a process of continuous improvement, just like, just like all of our clients have to have to do.
Dan Seguin 17:12
Okay, cool. Now, we all know, there's always more every country can be doing to combat climate change. But it's complex. In your opinion, Philippe, how does Canada compare? Is it on the right track, and focusing its effort on the right initiatives?
Philippe Dunsky 17:34
Yeah, I think it's, I think Canada is, is definitely moving in the right direction. I think there have been a lot of very important policies brought forward over the past several years that I think, bring us forward. Are they all done exactly the way I would like them to be done? No, if I had a magic wand, would I do it a little bit differently? Probably, but directionally there. Actually, I think we're heading there. You know, that being said, it's a long and winding road. Right. And it will be for the next decade. So there will be setbacks, and there will be things that we're doing that are suboptimal. And that's a little bit part of life. So my job and the role I've kind of given myself and my firm is to help make that path as straight and narrow as it reasonably can be. But you know, recognizing that this is a big learning process and, and mistakes you're gonna make for sure.
Dan Seguin 18:31
Now, Philippe, what are some of the biggest challenges or even threats to achieving a clean energy future in the timeline set out by scientists and the government? How is your company positioned to address them?
Philippe Dunsky 18:46
The biggest challenges and threats and I'll decouple those questions, okay. Because I think that, from my perspective, there are enormous challenges. There's first and foremost, a challenge of time, right? Because what we're talking about if we're talking about, you know, getting to net zero or something like it by 2050. I mean, that's a single generation. So we're talking about literally transforming the backbone of modern economies in a single generation. That is, number one, because frankly, that's never been done before. We've done it within sectors, right, we've done we went from, from horse drawn carriages, to to you know, horseless horseless carriages. And you know, we've, we dumped manufacturer, gas and went, went to natural gas, and we've done individual changes like that before. We've never done all at the same time dealing with that and getting it done. The single generation is a race. And so I do think that time is probably the number one challenge number two challenge. And, you know, if you really take a take a step back here and think about what we're talking about it, it's largely from an economic standpoint, we're largely moving from optics to capex, and there's we're largely it moving from a context where whether it's utilities, or business owners or homeowners, today, we pay our bills, you know, we're buying fossil fuels, right, we're buying and burning the energy that we consume. And so that's an OP X thing. Now, what we're talking about is increasingly stuff, that's just all capital, if you think of, you know, going from a gas plant to, let's say, a wind farm, a wind farm is, you know, it's once and done all of the entire cost for next 20 years, or 95% of it goes in the ground on day one, that's moving objects to capex, it's a really big change. If you're thinking of it from a homeowner perspective, we're talking about, let's say, take my example, you know, I bought an Eevee, my Eevee cost a lot more than that my previous gas car did. On the other hand, I'm paying a hell of a lot less to keep it up to optics to capex. So there's a real challenge around getting enough capital for all this to happen, whether it's for large utilities or down to an individual homeowner or car owner, I think that's a real big challenge that we have a couple more, maybe I'll, maybe I'll stop there. And then the things that my firm is doing to address those, I mean, look, like I said before, on the timeline side, everything we're trying to do is just minimize errors, we're not gonna eliminate them, but minimize errors. So that that line between here and there can be as straight as possible, and as least painful as possible on the capital side, that's a very specific thing. But we actually do a lot of work developing innovative financing mechanisms that utilities and governments can offer to homeowners and business owners, to allow them to have access to the capital that they need, as they tried to save money on the operation side. So those are, those are a couple of them, anyhow.
Dan Seguin 21:57
Okay, Philippe, what do you want Canadians to know about the country's transition to clean energy that they might not already know or be aware of?
Philippe Dunsky 22:10
You know, I think, I think everyone is aware that this energy transition is really big, and it's gonna be really hard. Maybe the one thing I'll add on to it is, there's a lot of benefit on the other side of this. So a lot of benefit, you know, what we're talking about ultimately, is, is transformative in nature, it's the sort of thing that's happened. I'm thinking outside of the energy sector, but just holistically, these kinds of changes have happened a few times in the past 100 years or so. And they tend to always be ultimately about moral leadership to start. And so I think we need to think of this, first and foremost from the perspective of moral leadership, which is something that is one of the reasons why Canada has such a great, strong brand around the world, because we punch above our weight on the great moral issues of the times. And that was true when we went to help out Europe during World War Two, and that was that true. And we went Mulrooney led the boycott of South Africa under apartheid. I mean, we've stood up when we've needed to, that has positioned this country internationally in a way that I don't I'm not sure that we fully measure. This is one of those times. And so being at the forefront of this, I think is extraordinarily important for our country as a whole. That being said, there's also some really economic benefits at the end of this and flip it on its head to there's some real economic costs and risks if we don't do this, and if we don't get it right, well, one thing, one thing I'll point to, I remember about 10 years ago, being in conversations with some provincial governments about the possibility of governments eventually taxing imports of our products, if they're too carbon intensive, and the idea sounded a bit crazy back then we're recording this today on October 30 29 days ago, on October 1, Europe's carbon border adjustment mechanism came into effect for the first time. And that is effectively going to tax import of products from everywhere around the world based on their carbon content. So if we get ahead of this fast, if we succeed in this, if we lower our carbon content of what we produce, we've got a hell of a nice economic advantage at the end of it.
Dan Seguin 24:33
Now, what advice would you give to an aspiring entrepreneur or those looking to make a positive impact in the clean energy and climate sectors?
Philippe Dunsky 24:48
You know, my advice is it's gonna sound a little wishy washy, but it's just figuring out what you're great at. You know, everyone's great at something different so I have a hard time. I'm providing really concrete advice to people I don't know personally, but everyone's got their magic. Everyone's got their special exceptionalism. I think it's important to know who you are, know what you really like to do know where you excel, and then whatever that is, to the extent that you can bring that to service of a greater cause, whether it's climate, whether it's portability, whatever it is, I think that's just a beautiful thing. So I encourage everyone to ultimately lead a purpose driven life and, and lean on their own strengths wherever they may be.
Dan Seguin 25:35
Okay, that's fair. Lastly, Philippe, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Maybe. Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?
Philippe Dunsky 25:51
Right now I'm actually sounding nerdy but I'm actually reading the CIA's 2030. Outlook, the latest 2030 outlook by the International Energy Agency. Absolutely fascinating read. If you're a nerd, like I am about energy.
Dan Seguin 26:04
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Philippe Dunsky 26:10
My boat? My boat is a canoe. And what would I name my canoe? I'm not sure. Maybe I named it the Power Canoe. One of the reasons I love canoes, by the way, is they're probably the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B on water. So I'm a big fan of energy efficiency and, and a canoe is just that.
Dan Seguin 26:31
Who is someone that you truly admire Philippe?
Philippe Dunsky 26:35
Oh, goodness, I admire so many people, I couldn't come up with a single name there. You know, I work with a lot of leaders who dedicate their time and energy and excellence to, for public purposes. And every single one of those I'm in deep admiration of, I'll maybe add one other group, the folks I work with here in my firm. I've never known a group of people as dedicated and passionate and smart and curious. As they are, they do inspire me.
Dan Seguin 27:05
Good, good. Okay. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Philippe Dunsky 27:10
I'm from Quebec. So I'm a big fan of the circus, the modern circus, whether it's Cirque du Soleil, Cirque Éloize or les Sédois de la mayenne, they always amaze me and I'll always leave me spellbound.
Dan Seguin 27:24
Okay, next, as a result of the pandemic. Many of us are guilty of watching a lot of Netflix or other streaming platforms. What's your favorite movie or show?
Philippe Dunsky 27:38
You know what, I watched many different Netflix shows. These days. I'm just trying to think what's in bridgerton would be one of them right now. I'm really enjoying it.
Dan Seguin 27:52
Now, lastly, Philippe, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Philippe Dunsky 27:58
What's exciting is the same thing that's exhausting me. And that's the pace of change. It's just an extraordinary time right now. And I'll tell you what's really exciting me is that five years ago, because this is all I do. Right? I'm a one trick pony. So I think about this every day. Five years ago, I felt pretty alone in seeing and understanding the pace of change that we needed today. I feel like pretty much every leader I speak with is very clear eyed about how big this is, how fast it's gotta go, the challenge that it represents, and the near the you know, the knowledge that we need to get going and get going in a big way. So that excites me.
Dan Seguin 28:37
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Philippe Dunsky 28:44
Well, my organization's website is very simple. Dunsky.com. That's probably the easiest, easiest way. And if you want to connect with me, try info@dunsky.com or my own email. The simplest email in the world is philippe@dunsky.com.
Dan Seguin 29:05
Well, Philippe, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Philippe Dunsky 29:15
It was fun. Thank you. I love your questions.
Dan Seguin 29:18
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests from previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
More and more we seek brands and products to help us conserve energy, save money, and make a positive impact on the planet. Every purchase is powerful. ENERGY STAR Canada’s Director of Program Support and Modernization, Burt James, joins episode 123 of thinkenergy to chat ways we can harness that power. From energy-efficient products to how ENERGY STAR programs help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, save electricity, and even improve the quality of our lives. Listen to the conversation today.
Related links
ENERGY STAR Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/energy-star-canada/18953
ENERGY STAR Canada on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/energy-star-canada/
ENERGY STAR Canada on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/ENERGYSTAR_CAN
ENERGY STAR Canada on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ENERGYSTARCanada/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that your wallet can help you reduce your energy footprint? Energy efficient products have become powerful tools and conservation and energy reduction efforts as people around the world become more aware of the impact their purchasing choices have on the environment. Consumers increasingly want electronic devices and appliances that use less energy to help save money on their energy bills, create a more sustainable future for people and the planet and are less wasteful and subsequently reduce greenhouse gas emissions. More and more people want to do business with brands that are just as concerned about these things as they are and they're using their wallet to send that message. More than ever, we have come to realize the power our wallets hold, we are dictating what is manufactured and produced because of how we think about and use energy. Over the last few decades and perhaps this last decade in particular, more of us are concerned about our own impact and contribution towards climate change. Enter ENERGY STAR Canada, a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and industry to make high efficiency products readily available and visible to Canadians. Providing simple, credible and unbiased information so consumers like us can make well informed decisions in the US alone ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 4 billion metric tons since 1992. And save the equivalent of 5 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity. You likely know and recognize and have Energy Star products in your home already. Its logo has become a trusted symbol, particularly in the appliances space, but there's a lot more that they do then you may not be aware of. So here's today's big question. In what ways can we harness the power of our wallets to make a positive difference for our planet and what other opportunities exist through programs like ENERGY STAR to lessen our impact on the environment, and even human health? Joining us today is Bert James. He's the Director of Product Support and modernization at ENERGY STAR from the Office of Energy Efficiency. Hey, Bert, welcome to the podcast.
Bert James 03:10
Pleasure to be here.
Dan Seguin 03:11
Now. Maybe you can start by telling us how the ENERGY STAR brand came to be and why it's become such a trusted symbol.
Bert James 03:21
Thanks for the question, Dan. The Energy Star program was actually started in the early 1990s by the US Environmental Protection Agency, but was first brought to Canada in 2001. In an international partnership and our can through the Office of Energy Efficiency are the stewards of the program in Canada. It's a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and program participants to make high efficiency products, homes and buildings available and visible to consumers and businesses. The product program is probably the one that people are most familiar with. And it was the first member of the ENERGY STAR candidate family. There are more than 80 types of products available and 1000s and 1000s of products, we have over 1000 program participants in the product space alone. Later on in 2005. We brought in the ENERGY STAR for new homes program in 2017. ENERGY STAR for industry in 2018, Energy Star certification became available for commercial and institutional buildings. And how did it become such a trusted symbol, I think through consistent performance more than anything else, it's recognized by a strong majority, like more than 80% of Canadians know what that little blue star means whenever they see it. It's government backed, which I think gives it some credibility or at least I'd like to think so there are transparent and really strict efficiency specifications as well which makes the program reliable and the products themselves are subject to post market verification in that, you know, it's not just about what you say your product will do, but it's actually about how your product performs. So there are proven savings. The market is quite saturated I think with Energy Star products. In terms of a price comparison, there's no difference in Most product categories and by purchasing one provided that it fits your design style, you know, you're going to save money if you purchase an energy star product.
Dan Seguin 05:08
That's very cool. Now, how does your rating system and our guide fit into this equation?
Bert James 05:15
So the inner guide rating system does kind of dovetail with ENERGY STAR, but they are separate pieces. In the world of residential homes. There is an EnerGuide rating system that compares individual homes from an energy performance perspective against other homes and then issues a rating ENERGY STAR for new homes, by contrast, is actually a reflection of the energy performance as it relates to the building code. In the world of appliances. Energy Star has a certain technical specification or and I guess, to elaborate a little further on that each product must have a certain energy performance, whereas EnerGuide is more just a measure of that energy performance. It's not a standard per se. It's just a reading.
Dan Seguin 05:59
Thanks for the clarification. Okay, but we're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today aren't multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Now, does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?
Bert James 06:28
Well, I like to see everything as an opportunity then. So I would definitely put this into that category. I think the biggest challenge, if I may, is to kind of work within this situation where we find ourselves where we need to build more homes. I think there is a shortage of housing on the market. When we choose to build homes, we would like them to be as efficient as possible. And that's where ENERGY STAR can come in. From a certification standpoint. Many people live in multifamily homes now, or multi unit residential buildings or condo buildings. And of course, we encourage them all to use Energy Star products within their homes. But more broadly for whole buildings. We do have an Energy Star certification program for multifamily high rises in Ontario. It's a certification program for new construction that recognizes buildings that are at least 15% more efficient than those built to the provincial energy code and meet some other program requirements. But as we focus a lot on housing supply in this country, it is sometimes hard to talk about efficiency whenever we just need to get homes built. And so we you know, we see it as a challenge in terms of keeping energy efficiency in the spotlight whenever these homes get built, and also an excellent opportunity to promote the work that we do here within OEE.
Dan Seguin 07:46
Okay, the ENERGY STAR is mostly known for residential homes and appliances. But you're also in the industrial and commercial space. What programs exist to help these sectors reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
Bert James 08:02
This is a question where my answer might be long, I'm going to try and keep it as concise as I can. So there are a number of initiatives in both the commercial and industrial space. And I'll start with the commercial space energy star that has a tool called Portfolio Manager, which is a benchmarking tool. It's been with us this is actually the 10th anniversary this year is the 10th anniversary of the use of portfolio manager. And what Portfolio Manager allows you to do is measure your buildings performance as compared to other buildings that are in a similar class, it spits out a score and that score allows you to compare how your building will perform overall, in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a building that has a higher score consumes less energy and is more efficient in terms of keeping the heat in and so through the use of a portfolio manager a building owner can actually evaluate how their building performs as they construct it. But also if they were to do some retrofits to see how much better the building actually performs itself in the world of commercial residential or condo buildings. Portfolio Manager is obviously another tool that people could use but we also do have this pilot program in Ontario that does recognize buildings that are more energy efficient. So in the world of industrial players ENERGY STAR has two components. There is an energy star challenge and then a certification process. The challenge for industrial facilities is to reduce their energy consumption by 10%. Within five years, if you achieve this goal, you receive ENERGY STAR recognition and you can display the ENERGY STAR challenge for industry logo while 10% might not seem like a big achievement over the course of five years, the amount of electricity that some of the these facilities consumed is really quite substantial and a 10% drop in energy use can lead to some significant changes to the bottom line for these facilities. From a certification perspective, Natural Resources Canada recognizes the most energy efficient Canadian facilities with ENERGY STAR for industry certification. So industrial facilities located in Canada can earn the certification and display the energy star symbol. And it is done through an energy performance indicator that allows you to benchmark your facility's performance against those across Canada and the United States, it generates a score and those with the highest scores are eligible for certification.
Dan Seguin 10:28
Okay, what makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings unique?
Bert James 10:34
So ENERGY STAR certified buildings are, as I mentioned, in the residential space, the multi unit buildings they perform at least 15% better than the standard as described in the provincial energy code and ENERGY STAR certified buildings are just they are of higher energy performance. And you can feel it whenever you're in some of these buildings. And you can definitely see it through the control systems that are in place to manage energy within them. There are really some fantastic innovations happening in the building space with respect to heat and energy recovery. And these all help to improve the energy performance and ultimately improve the score through Portfolio Manager and that's what sets them apart is that they are higher performing buildings. You know, here in Ottawa, there are a couple of buildings that have recently been announced as net zero buildings whenever they are finally going to be built. That is the highest standard that we are looking at right now. But overall, you know, cut and dried, the difference between the ENERGY STAR certified building and one that is not ENERGY STAR certified is its energy performance.
Dan Seguin 11:34
Burt, are you able to unpack for listeners, what is the process to being certified?
Bert James 11:41
To be eligible for Energy Star certification, a building must earn a certain score through the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager access to Portfolio Manager is free. And I want to be clear that it does not require an engineering degree in order to operate it, it is something that a building manager can come in and use if it receives a certain score of 75. That means that it's operating better than at least 75% of similar buildings nationwide. So the entire process is done within the portfolio manager tool. Once you register for an account, you benchmark your building by using metered energy data. It's asking, you know, building operators for the data that they already have, which can be entered into the tool manually, or in some cases that can actually be automatically uploaded into the tool. Once you obtain your score. If it is 75 or higher, then you can submit an online certification application, have it verified by a licensed professional and then submit it to Natural Resources Canada, and then the last step for us is just to review that application. And if it is certified, the building receives an ENERGY STAR deckle to display on the building and also gets listed on in NRcan's online registry.
Dan Seguin 12:50
Now I'm curious about your signature program, the Canada Greener Homes Grant. What can you tell us about it, and how retrofit factors into your work?
Bert James 13:02
So the Canada Greener Homes Grant was launched in 2021. And I think in government time, that still makes it a relatively new program. It is obviously a program to incentivize home energy retrofits in the residential space across Canada. You know, the program itself was designed to improve the energy performance of home so there is a focus on improving the building envelope and also some of the equipment that exists within the home. When I say building envelope, I don't just mean you know the walls I also mean the windows and doors. And as it relates to energy star to be eligible for one of the grants, consumers or homeowners must install ENERGY STAR certified products into those spaces. There's also opportunities to add insulation to swap out furnaces for heat pumps and there are other aspects. So the retrofitting of homes is a very important factor for us as we work towards, you know, a net zero economy by 2050. The building sector accounts for a significant percentage of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions primarily related to space and water heating and retrofitting those buildings is an essential component of how we get to net zero energy star certainly plays a role in in supporting homeowners by putting high performing products in and ultimately can help us down the road of consuming less energy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in cases where if you are heating with a natural gas furnace, having high efficiency Windows keeps that he didn't and you will burn less gas overall and reduce your emissions associated with it.
Dan Seguin 14:40
Bert, more and more municipalities and communities are looking for ways to reduce costs and greenhouse gas emissions. What is the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager and who is the target audience?
Bert James 14:55
So the Portfolio Manager is a free tool you know, it's run by the United States Ba, they are the ones that the custodians of the tool can have certainly modified the tool, you know, for our own context, the target audience for Portfolio Manager are building operators. And so they are the people who have access to the water consumption, the energy consumption, waste generation, all of those things come into the portfolio manager tool, and we, you know, we target our work towards, towards the building operators and the building managers to get their information into it, it is really quite something but we have more than 40% of all commercial space across Canada is already found in the portfolio manager tool, and that date that is increasing all the time. And we have some good news stories from provinces, municipalities who are actually mandating the use of the tool in order to demonstrate energy performance in their jurisdictions. So like I said, the tool itself is free, it is quite easy to use, and but it is targeted towards the people who actually have access to that information about how a building currently performs and how it operates.
Dan Seguin 16:07
That's great, Bert. Now how does the federal budgets focus on energy and decarbonisation, the economy affects your work?
Bert James 16:09
Well, it is my work in many ways. I mean, energy efficiency is a central component of how we get to net zero by 2050. I like to think that there are three pillars to this : decarbonisation, which is the actual, you know, elimination of fossil fuel build burning devices. There is electrification, which is the conversion of certain things to electricity from a fossil fuel device, but then there's also energy efficiency. And so the less energy that we can use in order to operate, you know, a building an industrial facility or a product to the easier it is to to electrify that, and ultimately here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, that's, that's our goal, we want people to use high performing devices, we have many success stories around this, you know, we the efficiency of a refrigerator built in 2023 is, you know, many multiples ahead of of a refrigerator built, you know, 25 or 30 years ago. Similarly, incandescent light bulbs are actually getting harder and harder to find, and at some point in time, they will likely be regulated out of existence. So you know, the energy is the lifeblood of our economy, how we use that energy and the efficiency with which we use that energy is, I think, going to be a major indicator of our success as we move towards a full decarbonisation of the economy and reducing our emissions from coast to coast.
Dan Seguin 17:47
Now has the main social driver to buy Energy STAR shifted from energy saving, to, let's say, planet saving?
Bert James 17:56
That's a very good question. And I would say, our focus is still on saving energy, all energy has a cost. And if we can reduce the amount of energy that we consume, then ultimately we are going to save some money along the way. In Canada, we have a very clean electricity generation grid. And so but there are certain jurisdictions where even within this country where we still burn fossil fuels in order to generate electricity, if we can consume less energy, we will burn less fossil fuels in those jurisdictions. But I would say that the focus for the Energy Star program remains on remaining within energy performance and saving money and through the savings of energy, ultimately, are we going to be saving the planet along the way, I'd like to think that we are contributing positively in that way. But for us here, the focus has always been on just increasing the efficiency of the products that we are responsible for and helping Canadians make smart decisions with respect to where they live, work and play.
Dan Seguin 19:03
Got a follow up question for you, Bert. What trends are you seeing and what are you learning from consumers through their purchasing decisions?
Bert James 19:12
We are seeing I mean, I think greener homes are an excellent example. To go back to that question. We have seen nearly a doubling of program participation in energy star as a result of the incentives that are available through the greener homes grant. So people speak with their wallet sometimes, and by putting Energy Star products into greener homes, we've seen a significant uptick in the purchasing of fenestration products or windows and doors within the ENERGY STAR space. You know, we are are very proud of what we've done in the lighting space in particular, because we you know, ENERGY STAR lighting at one point in time was it was LED lighting and I think before that it might have there might have been some other model But we have largely moved away from incandescent lighting entirely. So, you know, we see people who are interested in purchasing a product, the concern that we tend to hear from Canadians is around cost differential. So they might not want to purchase a product, even if it's going to save them energy if it costs more money. And this is where I really love the Energy Star program. Because if you're buying a ceiling fan, there's no difference in cost between an ENERGY STAR ceiling fan and another ceiling fan. And this is the same thing across products like televisions, computer monitors. And so people don't need much of a push in order to buy a more efficient product. The concern that they have is obviously if there is a cost differential, this becomes a bit more of a pressing concern whenever we start to talk about housing, because obviously we want people to buy high performance housing. But there's a limit to how much more people are going to be willing to pay for a high performing house as compared to one that might not be an ENERGY STAR certified new home.
Dan Seguin 21:04
Okay, Burt, what role does ENERGY STAR have in achieving Canada's net zero emissions by 2050?
Bert James 21:15
Well, I can give you the most recent numbers that I have in 2022. Alone, ENERGY STAR certified products saved enough energy to power over 320,000 homes for a year or the equivalent of removing 680,000 cars from the road. Improving energy efficiency contributes firsthand to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is an important part of Canada's national approach to addressing climate change. The program supports Canadians in reducing energy consumption and improves efficiency across multiple sectors of the economy. The program assumes a multi pronged approach to advancing these environmental objectives from manufacturing, distribution and purchasing, obviously, as we have discussed residential housing both single family homes and multi unit homes promoting high efficiency and high efficiency performance in the commercial and institutional buildings and challenging industry to push efficiency even further. So I think ENERGY STAR absolutely has a role to play. It is an aspirational standard. But you know, through program participation, and through the work that we do with our various stakeholder groups, we have the power to leverage that brand to influence people to make good purchasing decisions that will ultimately lead them to, you know, reduce their energy consumption, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and and hopefully get us towards net zero by 2050.
Dan Seguin 22:37
Now, let's move on from role to goals. What are some of your own internal goals with respect to net zero?
Bert James 22:47
Well, you know, here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, Net Zero is sort of our shining star, it's the one that we're trying to work towards, we continue to push standards higher and hire on the regulatory side of things. To make products more and more efficient. Obviously, we can't push too far too fast. Because sometimes the products just don't exist to have an energy performance that we know where they need to be. And so we are constantly seeking opportunities to identify product types to improve the standards overall. I know we work in close and close contact with the US EPA who are developing new standards for ENERGY STAR for new products that are coming ahead. And so what we want to do is, is just, we want to do everything that we can to make sure that energy efficiency stays front of mind as we are making purchasing purchasing decisions that we're providing information to people about the importance of of energy efficiency, and really supporting what is a robust labor market for energy efficiency as well, you know, the greener homes, you know, to go back to that has really helped to incentivize the retrofit market with a focus on energy efficiency, I think we we should be very proud of jobs that are created the economic activity that gets created out of that because the environment and the economy are not distinct things, more and more they are becoming one of the same in terms of you know, addressing environmental challenges are is an excellent economic opportunity. And I think ENERGY STAR has a role to play in that space.
Dan Seguin 24:25
Okay, time for a little bragging bird. What are some of Energy STARS or the office of Energy's efficiencies greatest accomplishments?
Bert James 24:35
Well, I'll start with ENERGY STAR. Certainly, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out too. One is that we will be sunsetting the ENERGY STAR requirements for most lighting products. This is to pat ourselves on the back Mission Accomplished story we brought in the ENERGY STAR standard, which was led lights and that standard has what was originally aspirational has now become the industry standard. And we are going to be decommissioning the ENERGY STAR standard because most products are built to it anyways, the overwhelming majority of lighting products that you find meet that standard. And so that's a very good news story for us. Similarly, the EPA has indicated that we will be decommissioning standards related to the performance of fossil fuel devices and burning devices such as furnaces or hot water heaters, because the technology for electric electricity or electric heating and cooling as well as electric water heating have advanced to a point where, you know, our focus is going to become improving that energy performance and, and getting away from consideration around fossil fuels in the world of commercial buildings. Another great story for energy portfolio managers, as I mentioned, is that approximately 45% of commercial buildings by floor space are benchmarked through this through the Portfolio Manager tool, you know, the more that we can get into Portfolio Manager, it's a bit of a game, right? So for building operators, you know, whether you are operating a school or a hospital, you know, a medical clinic, you can compare your facilities, energy performance against other facilities. And the more that we can put into Portfolio Manager, the better we understand the performance of our building stock and look at ways to that we can ultimately improve if I look at the Office of Energy Efficiency, certainly, you know, we've launched a number of very successful programs over the course of the years greener Homes has issued hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants already, but something that I would like to to advocate for is that, you know, OEE also plays a key role of as regulator, so we have saved a lot of energy, and we've phased out some poor performing products such as light bulbs, but we use our regulatory role to support building operators to support industry to support manufacturers, and we have a couple of very well known products in enter guide, both the inner guide that shows up on your appliances and enter guide for houses. These are very well known and web and highly recognized programs. And nothing beats brand recognition whenever it comes to programs such as this.
Dan Seguin 27:13
Lastly, Burt, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Bert James 27:21
Okay, I guess I'm ready as ready as I'll ever be. Yes.
Dan Seguin 27:25
So what are you reading right now?
Bert James 27:28
So I have to confess, Dan, that outside of work, I'm not a big reader. I tend to listen to podcasts. I'm an auditory learner. And so I love the podcast medium, what I'm listening to on podcasts right now, and a couple of things. I love current affairs. And so I listened to Current Affairs podcast quite a bit. Most recently, I, you know, kind of dived into a couple of different topics related to the use of artificial intelligence. And one that is, you know, I would say more of a guilty pleasure than anything else, which is just listening to interminable amounts of sports podcasts. So I, so I read all day, every day for work. And whenever I get to the end of my work day, I tend to turn that skill in my brain off and I tend to listen more than read.
Dan Seguin 28:17
What would you name your boat if you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Bert James 28:21
I do have a boat. It is a canoe and the canoe’s name is Worth My While.
Dan Seguin 28:29
Who is someone that you truly admire, Bert?
Bert James 28:32
Well, the first person that comes to mind is my mother. Of course, I am a mama's boy, if you can't tell from that statement. My mother is 80 years old, and could write a book on how to fit 25 hours into your day. She is quite incredible. You know, Dan, just to just take a step back, I work with the smartest group of people I've ever known right now. And I look around me and, you know, not just within the management community that I'm part of, but people up and down throughout this organization, I really admire their commitment to the organization, their commitment to the work that they do, and the dedication that they show. So I feel very fortunate to be a public servant, and particularly in the role that I'm in right now just to be surrounded by experts in their fields, both technical experts, policy experts and just leaders in the truest sense of the word. And those are the so if I had to say pick anyone to admire would probably be them.
Dan Seguin 29:30
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Bert James 29:35
Well, I actually had - and you can tell me after the fact that this is something that I am not allowed to talk about on the podcast - but I had something truly amazing happen to me about a week and a half ago. I was in Algonquin Park, and I was fishing and I ended up catching a fish and he decided that we were going to have it for lunch. And so in the process of cleaning a fish, I opened it up and a live baby snapping turtle fell out of its belly. And it was the most amazing circumstance that I think I've ever been part of. And if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got lots of other experiences. But I cannot get over how magical it was that I happened to be on that beach at that time and to liberate it. So we named the turtle Lucky. And we put the turtle into a safe space for a little while, then we went back and checked on him for a day or so. And then the turtle had disappeared and had gone off. We assumed greener pastures, but that is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. You know, but if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got another example for you.
Dan Seguin 30:49
Okay, now, as a result of the pandemic, many of us are guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV. What is your favorite movie or show?
Bert James 31:01
So similar to my answer about what I am reading, I don't tend to watch a lot. I spend my day in front of screens and a good portion of my day on camera leading meetings, et cetera. The most recent Netflix show that I really got into was Ozark which was, which was a pretty, you know, dark and brooding show at times. But I found it quite compelling in terms of television. I tend to stick to sporting events, most of the time. That's where my interest lies. It's not that I don't enjoy television. It's just that for some reason, sitting in front of yet another screen, whenever I've spent a good portion of my day in front of screens, doesn't really resonate with me.
Dan Seguin 31:48
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now, Bert?
Bert James 31:53
Well, I think there is an increasing amount of media attention being paid to energy efficiency, you know, not just from a technological perspective, because there's quite a bit of information in the news right now about heat pumps and the possibilities that heat pumps bring to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. What I think is really exciting about it is that it feels somewhat like a coming of age moment in that the world of energy efficiency has been creating jobs for decades. But more and more, I think people are starting to recognize the potential that this sector has from a research and development angle, you know, the potential job opportunities that it creates, and both the public and social benefits that come with energy efficiency as well. And so there does seem to be a recognition of what energy efficiency can bring to the economy. And I love talking about my work, not just with you with anyone who will listen, and I really feel like we are at a turning point, just because of, you know, some of the environmental challenges. I think climate change being the challenge of our generation, and just looking at the enormous potential that exists within this sector to make life better, measurably better for Canadians and for people around the world.
Dan Seguin 33:18
If our listeners want to learn more about you or your organization, how can they connect?
Bert James 33:23
So if you're looking for information about ENERGY STAR, if you go search online for ENERGY STAR Canada will bring you directly to our web presence. If you're looking for more information about the Office of Energy Efficiency, I would counsel people to do the same. I don't often direct people to our website. It's not something that you know, is going to wow you but there is a great amount of information in there really quite relevant information. It can help people find incentive programs within their own jurisdictions. It can help people learn about the products that they want to buy or are considering buying. And it can help greatly from an education standpoint to help people learn about the benefits of energy efficiency in their home and at their office.
Dan Seguin 34:08
Well Burt, this is it, we've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.
Bert James 34:18
I did. I did. How should I say this? It's nice to be on the other side of the speaker. I listen to a lot of podcasts, yours included, and I love to inform myself in this way and whatever I can do to promote my work, which I am intensely proud of. I am happy to do so.
Dan Seguin 34:34
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow
What role do communicators play in motivating change? Specifically, how can they move their audiences to take action against climate change? In thinkenergy episode 122, we delve into the world of climate communication with Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re.Climate. Explore the driving forces, opportunities, and challenges of inspiring climate action—from bridging research to practise to empowering change. Listen in for an insightful conversation on shaping a sustainable future.
Related links
Amber Bennet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abennettyyc/
Re.Climate: https://reclimate.ca/
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you scroll through the news this morning? How many of those articles that you skim covered a topic related to climate change? I guess it was probably a few. It seems. Every couple of weeks there's a new story dominating the headlines about forest fires, hurricanes, floods, heatwaves, and more, both here in Canada and abroad. We are seeing firsthand the effects of climate change and As consumers, we are receiving information about it. Everywhere we look. Have you ever thought about how you are being communicated to? How is climate change presented? What wording was used? And why? And are their calls to action? How does it make you feel? think not only about news articles you read, but also about documentaries, podcasts, Hollywood movies, right down to your everyday life. Think about the newsletter you receive from your municipality. The assembly instruction on the last piece of furniture you purchase, or this section on your favorite clothing brand, website about their sustainable practice, communications surrounding climate change are pretty much everywhere and the need to be. In June of 2021, the Canadian government introduced the Canadian net zero emission Accountability Act, which puts into legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Different companies across the country are making their commitment, much like we did in 2022, when we committed to leading the way to a Smart Energy Future by becoming net zero by 2030. The push on to stop the damaging pollution emitted into the environment on a daily basis, namely caused by burning fossil fuels. Scientists are urging that this is crunch time. So if you haven't already, now is the time to hone in on how and what you are communicating to your customers. So here is today's big question. What role do communicators play in motivating change within their audiences to take action against climate change? Our guest today is Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re Climate, Canada's first climate communications and Engagement Center. This new organization launched in 2022 brings together Canada's leading climate communication academics and practitioners, and aims to help communicators create strategies that inspire the public to support climate action. Amber is one of Canada's top climate communication strategists and capacity builder who works with groups across the country bridging gaps between research and practice. She led the groundbreaking Alberta narrative project and supported much of the foundational work to pilot and build reclaim it. Amber, thank you for joining us today.
Amber Bennett 03:54
Thank you for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:56
Amber, maybe you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and Re Climate How did you get into climate communications? How did Re Climate come to be and what does it aim to achieve?
Amber Bennett 04:09
Okay, I'll try to hold all of those questions at once. Well, I am based in Calgary, Alberta, which may seem like an unlikely place for some for the executive director of a Canadian organization or Canadian center focused on climate communications and engagement at Carleton University. But that's where I live with my family. And what to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been circling around climate communications for a very, very long time. You know, the the mind has a funny way of making sense of things in retrospect, but I started with a Bachelor of Science and then I moved on to a public relations degree and then I worked with the mayor of Calgary on the one of the I forget which numbered cop, but it was a Copenhagen. And I think that was really the first time I began to think about what, what is climate change and had a certain kind of exposure to the, to the, you know what the challenge was and what not. And when I saw I kind of went on, and I did a master's degree. And it was when I had needed to choose a topic for my master's degree when there was the catastrophic flooding here in Calgary. And there is this, like, amazing paradox where the, you know, Calgary Stampede, which is the epitome, I would say, of the, you know, kind of old boys club. And when that happened, when the floods happened, their motto was come hell or high water come hell or high water, they were going to, you know, produce the show. And at the same time, one of the readings I was doing as a part of my master's program was also titled come hell or high water. And it was really about the science of climate change, and why it is making it so difficult. Why is it so difficult for humans to kind of wrap our heads around it. So fast forward, I completed a master's, and then did a series of really interesting projects. I did some work with a group out of the UK called Climate outreach, which is focused on climate communications and engagement as well. And then started working with a group of people here in Canada to set up a similar center or similar organization that would focus on supporting climate communicators, helping to kind of bring together the research that was happening, as well as the practice. And so that's really why Re Climate it is set up to do, we're really dedicated towards advancing the practice of climate communications and engagement through research, training, offering resources, pulling resources together, strategy, and developing strategy with other types of practitioners, as well as convening networks of both scholars, as well as those people who are kind of out there in the real world doing campaigning and advocacy work and trying to, you know, communicate with citizens and whatnot. So, that's kind of where we're at.
Dan Seguin 07:34
Now, Amber, it sounds like Re Climate, is a very diversified organization that brings together experts in social science, Public Affairs, and science. What kind of professionals work together in this environment? And what does it each bring to the table?
Amber Bennett 07:55
Love this question. So Re Climate brings together I think I've said it research and practice. And so you have those practitioners who may be doing public engagement campaigns, they may be working for utilities, they may be working in local governments or other kinds of government, they might also be working in advocacy organizations. And so they often don't have the time, or I would argue the luxury of going into, you know, latest academic journals, or even, you know, kind of other thought leaders who are publishing in the field. Why? Because they're busy, they're doing the work. And so, you know, that kind of takes a lot of time to kind of go in and look at the research, track it down, make sense of it? They're also, I would argue, very few who have the time to do an evaluation, like after they've done something, what did we learn from it? You know, What, did we make a difference? You know, what kind of impact are we having, and similarly, just getting together with other folks, right, and talking about it and sharing what they're learning. So that's kind of on the practitioner's side. And so, you know, when we say we bring or convene networks of people together, we're really trying to do that, you know, we're trying to provide resources, synthesize, you know, research, both, perhaps, you know, it's public polling, or maybe it's social science, you know, what's happening in in, that's relevant, but also bringing people together to share with each other and learn with each other. So that's kind of that practitioner side. And, you know, there's also, I would say, sometimes a culture where people feel like they're competing with each other, you know, certainly within the charitable sector. So kind of, I think, for those folks who are coming in, who are kind of in the field, having that support and someone who's doing In the work on their behalf to kind of make sense of synthesize, pull it in together like yours, your five tips here, the things you need to do. That's extremely helpful. And then on the flip side, I think for researchers, you know, they're, they're kind of passionate, there's a reason why they're there thinking or trying to understand, you know, how to better engage people, or what's the right framing, or what are the values or whatever it is, because they're passionate about it. So by being able to kind of bridge from the practitioner world into a more academic or into a research field, we're able to just give people real world challenges. It's like, here's why practitioners are actually struggling with, you're an expert in this, please talk to us about it, or please, you know, this is the kind of information that they need. So, you know, kind of the practitioners, I would say, Bring the complexity of the real world, right, that we're dealing with real people, resource constraints, you know, various kinds of issues and whatnot, whereas researchers bring the kind of precision of being able to look at something with a whole body of understanding behind them to be able to kind of see, well, here's what may be operating within this situation, here's what we know about it. And here are some other kinds of interventions or approaches that we might be able to take. I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Maybe the scientists part, I would say they bring the public trust. Right. So whenever we're polling, you know, consistently, scientists come up on top as having high levels of public trust on climate and energy transition. And so I think that they bring that kind of authenticity. And, you know, they're not there, they're often unpolitical, right? They're not seem to be benefiting, you know, personally from talking about it. So they're really effective messengers.
Dan Seguin 11:57
Wondering if you can share some insight into what the average Canadian's knowledge on climate change is? How much do they know about the main causes and the path forward?
Amber Bennett 12:14
Well, I would say that Canadians probably know a lot about climate change. But what we measure, it's a little bit different. So when, and I would encourage folks to take a look at some of the reports that we have published on ReClimate.ca The one that I'm, you know, I kind of go back to was published this year, or maybe it was last year. But within these reports, we basically look across 65, or more, either private or publicly available surveys, or public polls or whatnot, and we kind of do it a roll up of okay, so it's not just one survey that has said, this is multiple surveys that are showing kind of trends and themes in in where the Canadian beliefs or attitudes or or mindsets are. So when you do that, and when we looked across, you know, 65, or so what you can see is, is that, even though you have the majority of Canadians that would say yes, climate change is real, and it is happening, almost half of them attribute both natural and manmade causes, you know, attribute the cause of climate change due to natural causes as well as as manmade. And so why is that important, is because when we get into the conversations around solutions, then without the kind of foundational understanding that burning fossil fuels creates pollution, which creates a heat trapping blanket, which is heating our planet, and causing all of these extreme weather events and natural disasters that we're seeing. Without that kind of clear understanding that burning fossil fuels is the cause of climate change. And when you get into the solutions, and what people actually have to do about it, the conversations a bit more, there's a lot of confusion, or there's a lot of room for confusion, which is kind of what we're seeing and I can talk a little bit more about that. So you know, I spend a lot of time in focus groups, and this kind of conversation comes up. So when we talk about solutions in the path forward, you talk about climate change, and you start to have discussions around what you are doing, you know, recycling will often come up, plastics will often come up. There's a whole kind of suite of things that people are doing, but very few people are able to name a particular policy or real intervention that you know, that will address some of the root causes. And we people on this podcast may not be like, Hey, why really. But you know, there are a lot of different people and for many climate change, even though they may be living within the impacts are the, you know, experiencing in their daily lives, they have many other kinds of concerns and priorities that are happening at the same time. So what I would say is that Canadians believe that climate change is happening, there is at least half that are uncertain, or would attribute it to both natural causes, and manmade causes. This kind of understanding of burning fossil fuels, the trapping blanket, you know, that's not well understood by many. And so they're kind of subsequently stopping burning fossil fuels, as a path forward isn't clear, as it could be, or, or should be at this point in time. And maybe the other thing I if you, if you'll let me, the other thing I would say is, is that, you know, Canadians consistently report, when you ask them very high levels of concern about climate change, right? Most people can see forest fires, you know, that's how we are making sense of what climate changes. It is through these kinds of experiences, either directly, or our experiences of seeing, you know, extreme weather and natural disasters. So people are expressing very high levels of concern. But if you ask, unprompted, what are you know, what are the issues that you're most concerned about? It often will address climate change as mentioned Much, much farther down on the list. Right. So, affordability and access to health care, cost of living, housing, there are many other issues that people are faced with and dealing with in their day to day lives.
Dan Seguin 17:18
Okay, see the term movable middle mentioned in reports and on the reclaimed site, what is the movable middle? And why is it so important?
Amber Bennett 17:34
Great question. And I feel compelled to say that I think that term movable metal is used differently by different people. I think within the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided. Or they're conflicted about an issue. So they could move either one way or the other, but they're not at the moment. oppositional? Right. So if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians, whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change. They're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity is built around me. I'm a climate activist, and I'm a climate advocate. And you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others. But for the most part, people are concerned, right in the middle. They have they, you know, when they ask, yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that because they may not be well informed, or not thinking about this, they have many competing priorities. You're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue. Right? Because on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels, I just don't want them in my house, or we need lots of, you know, solar, renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So people, when we talk About the movable metal, really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned. They want when they support action, but they're undecided, potentially about one particular aspect or issue of it. Or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict. Or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know, why an example? Or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now, as we see more and more kinds of organized misinformation and disinformation. Right. So as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, a lot of certainty, what are some of the kinds of key narratives that are coming to the surface where people are kind of undecided? One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment than, you know, driving a car, or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support. Or it may be that solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kinds of things that are very dominant are kind of recurring pieces of information. And when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply, as much as maybe you were, I are people who are listening to this. So when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions? They really don't know what to think. Right? So like a third of us sit within that category, right? If I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it. Because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation, I know that I shouldn't be, you know, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they believe climate change is real and not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided, or just not, you know, as informed because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis.
Dan Seguin 22:32
Now Amber, why is it important for the average communicator, like those in the energy sector, for example, to better understand the strategy behind climate change communications?
Amber Bennett 22:45
Yeah, um, I think because climate change is a super wicked problem, and is really complicated. And maybe me rambling on for the past 20 minutes might give folks a sense of the things that, you know, we were trying to think about and grapple with all at the same time. And so I would say that, in other cases, although arguably, I would argue that information, probably doesn't work it in on any issue. But what we do know, is just giving people information, they're not, you know, people can't reason their way into kind of behavior change. So, you know, we live within systems. You know, we live within communities where, you know, we're surrounded by friends and family, we see ourselves as kind of certain types of people. There are all of these kinds of social needs and emotional needs that humans bring to the table, that climate change communications, and I would argue, probably any good communications needs to attend to. So this sense of belonging, right, so I belong to a community. Other people like me think and act this way, or I expect other people like me to think and act this way. Being able to understand even what the problem is can kind of create shared understanding so that people who are making decisions aren't making decisions that don't consider you that kind of shared understanding peace. People need a sense of efficacy, control in their lives, they need some agency, they just don't need someone making all these decisions on their behalf without any involvement. You know, people want to be good people. And to be able to ask questions and to challenge things that are going to impact their lives without being dismissed as a climate denier or shamed or whatnot. And people trust others for different reasons, right. So scientists are highly tuned lasts. politicians aren't big corporations aren't, right. But the ones who are often leading this conversation in public are big corporations and politicians. So all of those are the things that we need to attend to when we think about, you know, climate communications, and because it's such a complicated problem, and extends to so many aspects of our life. And to be fair, there's a lot of organized opposition and strategies to create polarization to create misinformation. There's a lot happening all at the same time.
Dan Seguin 25:43
Okay, let me ask you this, what effect does it have to all be on the same page?
Amber Bennett 25:51
I often give the analogy of an orchestra, right, where we all have the same song sheet, but we're all playing different instruments. And part of that is, you know, there is a role for the government in setting regulation. And there's a role for activists and advocates to be, you know, opening up new possibilities, holding governments and corporations to account. But actually, we also need businesses to be building out the products and the services and the and the things that we'll be using in our lives. And you need all of these different actors operating all at the same time. And, you know, to live, I guess, within an ecosystem, so I'm very skeptical of how one message is the efficacy of one message, I think that really what is helpful is if people are exposed to and have the ability to make meaning out of climate change, and out of energy transition through many different parts of their lives, and they actually have many different avenues to talk about it and to create, you know, a shared understanding of what they want for their future, or where we're going.
Dan Seguin 27:23
Let's move to electrification, and renewable energy. Cool? These are important pieces of the world's response to climate change. For those in the energy sector who have a direct relationship with electricity consumers, is there a certain messaging that we should be sharing with our audiences?
Amber Bennett 27:47
Such a great question. I might change, I might have a different thought while I'm making a cup of tea, you know, in a couple of hours from now. But I think that there is a very, goes back to the question that we talked about with literacy. And also goes back to some of the things I mentioned around people needing to have a sense of control in their lives. Right. So what we know from the research is that people's motivation to do something as a whole has a lot less to do with their perception of risk than it does there because their perception of their ability to act, and that that action will make a difference. What people really, I would say, based on all the things that I look at and read and whatnot, want is a place to act that makes sense. And that is relevant to their lives. So I think for folks who work in electrification, work in renewable energy, a part of what we need right now is both to fill in all of the pixels around, like, where are we going? What is this going to look like in my daily life? What are the things that make sense for me to do right now? And how are the things that I'm doing making a difference within, you know, the broader community that I know and love and want to make sure it's safe and prosperous? And all of those things? So I think what we're, what we need, in part, are those people who are responsible for infrastructure, for services, for that kind of daily life to start filling in the pixels of what is this going to mean? Because people get a little stuck on, like, blind faith. We're just going to hand it over and other people make decisions. People want to have a conversation. They want to have a space where they can kind of create a shared understanding, right, like a public imagination of like, where are we going? And what's it going to be like when we get there? And what is it going to need in my daily life? And so I think that there's that part, like, what is this going to look like? And then I think the other part is, what are you asking me to do? And how is it gonna make a difference? For me and for my community, Canadians are very generous, right? They're willing to do stuff, even if it doesn't benefit them, if they really believe that it'll, you know, benefit the broader community or collective good, they'll step up. But I would argue that we haven't done a really good job of giving people tangible, practical, relevant things that do make a difference. Neither have we done a great job of filling out the vision of what this is gonna look like, right? It's kind of a little bit like a cliff at the moment, right? We're all going to transition to renewables. And we haven't filled in, what is that actually going to look like? Right? Am I going to have a gas station at the end of my street? I don't know. What is it going to look like? That's what I would say is storytelling, right? What's the story of what this is? How is this going to happen? And what it will look like when we get there.
Dan Seguin 31:27
Okay, Amber. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Hydro Ottawa has committed to being net zero by 2030. Does this kind of messaging resonate with the general public? Are there best practices in how to communicate this type of message in order to influence and maybe even promote change in our community?
Amber Bennett 31:51
Well, I would say if we kind of got back to, you know, when we think about Canadians, right, so I think that you've got a little section of folks who sit on one end, who net zero by 2030 makes a lot of sense. They understand what Net Zero is, they understand why you've chosen 2030. They understand what getting to net zero, you know, even means, however, it's likely that a section of those people are kind of skeptical. Why? Because they've been hearing a lot of targets, and not a lot of action, you know, for many, many decades. And then, so that's, you know, that one group, right, we start to see kind of dropping, you know, belief that, you know, it's possible, or that's going to happen. And then you have that whole other group in the middle that I was talking about, where net zero means absolutely nothing. The word the language, net zero means, you know, I'm being a little bit brutal, but it's true, right, where net zero doesn't really mean a whole lot. And, and neither does 2030, or the importance of it. And I think, you know, I sitting in a boardroom or a meeting room the other day, and we're talking about targets, and it really struck me when the person on the other side said, we know that this is ambitious, and we know that it's impossible, but we have to say it, because it's actually what science requires of us. These are not a political target, it's actually a scientific target, that we need to reduce emissions by this amount by this period in time, even if we'll never get there. That's what science requires of us. So I think all that to say, targets, I think are very helpful for administrators, for policy makers, for business leaders, etc. To help, you know, turn the ship, and to help start getting the kind of resourcing and planning and whatnot in place. But for the general public, what they actually want is what we were just talking about, tell me where we're going and tell me what I have to do. And tell me why it makes a difference.
Dan Seguin 34:17
Cool, Amber. You were a co-author on an incredibly helpful document entitled, climate messaging that works, talking about energy transition and climate change in Canada, which outlines the concept of message triangle. For me, it was a simple takeaway that could be immediately implemented into any communications surrounding climate change. Could you share the coles note of the message triangle with our listeners?
Amber Bennett 34:50
I can, and I would love to. And I suspect that, you know, there'll be parts of what I'm about to say that begin to resonate with some of the past things that I've said or are connected to. So really in a triangle, the underlying principle is that we're trying to create a whole story or a whole narrative for people. And that has a lot to do with how human beings and how we have evolved and how we make sense of the world, we make sense of the world through narrative and through stories. And so when we just give people one piece of something, it doesn't satisfy the way that we have been trained. Since, you know, the, since the beginning to kind of make sense of the world. So what we want to do is we want to give people a challenge that has to either be overcome, or that we're at risk of losing something. So there's a challenge, there's a choice that we have right now that we need to make. And then there's an opportunity. And if we can hit each piece of that triangle, what we're doing is we're creating a whole story for people, which allows them to make sense of why are you taking my time? And why should I listen to you? So you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change. But also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing, that are related to climate change within our communities? You know, I was listening to a CBC program the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland, that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of Hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would, right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal individual problem. But if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like doing it all on their own. Similarly, a choice, right, as communicators, if we're talking specifically to communicators, we often leave out the choice at the moment, what is the call to action? What are you actually trying? What are you asking someone to do? Is it voted a certain way? Is it a conversation? If it takes a particular action, we need something, there's some sort of choice, and there's some sort of action that has to create tension within this story, right? All good stories have a choice that has to be made by the main, you know, character, and then the opportunity. And I think, you know, part of what I've been talking about around, where are we going? What's it going to look like when we get there is that opportunity. So if we're talking about the challenge, is, you know, we're seeing increasing extreme weather, that's because of burning fossil fuels and pollution, the trapping blanket, our choice right now is we need to electrify and that means building infrastructure, the opportunity that we have is at a community scale, both for you know, ourselves and and for others. This kind of, you know, whatever might be the relevance of it right, we'll have a more dependable electricity supply. You know, if we're all in EVs, and we have backup, you know, batteries in our cars, when the power goes out, you know, you've got a little mini generator that you can draw on that gives you electricity, you know, through the storm or something, whatever it might look like. But that's the point is that we're trying to create a full picture for people. We want to talk about, what's the challenge? What's the choice? And what's the opportunity on the other side?
Dan Seguin 39:22
Now, climate change has been a hot topic for oh, God, at least 20 years now. Are there any challenges with keeping an audience engaged and interested for so long?
Amber Bennett 39:36
Yeah, there's actually a woman out of the States who wrote an article. Her name is Suzanne Moser. And it's something I'm going to botch the title but it's something like, you know, Climate Communications 20 Years Later: What Have We Really Learned? And I think that in fairness, I think we've learned a lot, right? I think most people understand that it's more complicated than just giving people a brochure at this point. And I think that in 20 years, we've done a much better job of crystallizing, what is it that we need to do? However, there's also been 20 years of misinformation, 20 years of broken plans and not, you know, unachieved targets etc. And I was chatting with a woman the other day and, and she's like, because I kind of feel like forest fires and floods and hurricanes are doing the job that we used to do, you know, which is creating alarm and concern and demonstrating like, this is real. And it's a big problem. So I think in 20 years, we've had 20 years more of all of that. But we haven't, you know, but, but rather, I would say the job now in this moment, is the pathway, right? And giving people that kind of those choices, that control, and that sense of agency, that they can do something about it. And we need to get on with the action part, right. So we can't leave people in just concern. Because our minds can only hold so much anxiety and concern at one time, amongst all of the other things that we're concerned and anxious about, you know, climate change is just, you know, even more dreadful, particularly, I think, for younger people. So we can't, you know, people can only stay there for so long before they start to kind of check out because, as I go back, you know, I kind of mentioned it in the beginning. It's like our sense of whether or not we or our sense of motivation, or motivation to act has a lot more to do with our sense of being able to do something about it, rather than the risk that it that it proposes or that it is, so yeah. So, I would say the challenges of keeping people interested or if you can't give them something to do, then, you know, at a certain point, you kind of have to just check out of the conversation until, you know, you get clear about what are you asking me, and I think that this kind of anxiety is a real problem. And so the road for them, this moment really requires us to get much more clear about where we're going in the pathway forward.
Dan Seguin 42:52
Okay, Amber, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Amber Bennett 43:00
Ready to go? Okay,
Dan Seguin 43:03
What are you reading right now?
Amber Bennett 43:05
Wine Witch on Fire by Natalie Maclean, I think.
Dan Seguin 43:09
Okay, now, what would you name your boat? If you had one, maybe you do. Maybe you don't.
Amber Bennett 43:17
I don't have one. And it would be a miracle if I ever have one. So I'm going to name it a Miracle.
Dan Seguin 43:24
Who is someone that you truly admire?
Amber Bennett 43:28
This is kind of really out of left field, but I'm gonna go with it. So during COVID, there was a woman named Trinny Woodall who used to do What Not To Wear on the BBC. It was like one of the original kinds of reality programs, like one of those. And, you know, I'd love to be more philosophical than this. But I admire her because her whole... a) she works so hard, but also she just wants to make women of a certain age or any woman just feel good. And I really just admire someone whose life and business and purpose is really just trying to make other people see the goodness in themselves or to feel better about themselves. So she's, and she's also for any one who's interested. I mean, a social media magician, like she's, she's magic in terms of what she did. She started during COVID and kind of as a comms person, like, Yeah, amazing. Kind of how she has set herself up as an influencer.
Dan Seguin 44:42
Okay, Amber, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Amber Bennett 44:51
Magic? Yeah, this is hard. Okay, so just bear with me. Great start! This is not as rapid as you probably want. I'm moving houses. I bought a house. And there were two moments in like, one was do I put an offer in? Or do we put an offer in? And then there was another moment, kind of later on. And in both cases, I was about to say, I was going to pull back and say no, you know, I'm not going to go forward with it. And I kid you not, in that moment, the wind picked up. So in one case, I was outside and the wind picked up and got very, very strong where I was standing. So the first time you know, you can kind of blow it off. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. That was weird. But it happened twice. It happened a second time. And then the second time where I was, you know, kind of stuck. And, you know, wanting to retreat and I got a little, you know, scared about, you know, kind of taking the leap. And in that second time, the same thing happened, where the winds picked up, and they got a little bit stronger around me. And then they calmed down afterwards. And not in a like, oh, I kind of feel like no, it's kind of little, you know, it was very dramatic. And so anyways, I move houses tomorrow, so I'm gonna just put that out to magic. Not quite sure. It doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Why? Why did we do it? But we're there now.
Dan Seguin 46:26
Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Amber Bennett 46:32
Yeah, I'm, like so many parents. And I would argue women in particular, the double bind of having to take care of kids as though I don't work. And work even though I don't have kids. And I think for a lot of parents that was the impossible situation and I don't feel that that's really gone away.
Dan Seguin 47:02
This next one I always enjoy. What have you been watching a lot more of on Netflix or TV lately? What's your favorite? In other words, you know, what's your favorite movie or TV show?
Amber Bennett 47:17
I love the Peaky Blinders. And I've gone back and I've watched certain episodes again, just because they're so delicious with the costumes and the characters and the whole thing. I'm, yeah, totally enthralled. Yeah, love it. Okay.Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now. Um, I think that if anyone were to see my email inbox, they'd be very surprised at, you know, I think communion policy was the king for so long. And I think finally, we're at the point where we're beginning to understand that the public has to be on board, the public actually needs to have informed consent about so many of these choices. And we need a social mandate to ensure that climate action is the third rail, right? You know, if you're going to be a leader in this country, or business operating in this country, then you need to be a climate leader, and you need to be a climate business, it has to be fundamental to all of the decisions that you make, and how you and how you operate. Because science doesn't give us any other choice at this moment. So that's, so I think, the kind of realization that we can have all the technology and all the policy that we want, but if people aren't on board, then it's never going to happen. And so I get to work with very interesting people, unexpected from all walks of life, and you know, different sectors who are beginning to understand that, really, this is something we're going to work on until all of us and those beyond. For many generations, yeah.
Dan Seguin 49:12
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, Amber, or your organization, how can they connect?
Amber Bennett 49:18
Yeah, well, easiest is to go to our website, so Re.Climate, so that's reclimate.ca. And folks can sign up there if they want to, you know, make sure that they get more information on events, and we do lots of, you know, webinars and talks and we release reports and, and whatnot. So that's a great thing to do. And I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So Amber Bennett, and I also share lots of things there. that I find interesting.
Dan Seguin 49:59
Well, Amber. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Amber Bennett 50:08
Yeah. Great questions. Great chat. And thank you.
Dan Seguin 50:14
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Extreme weather, cyber attacks, and disruptive technology pose growing threats worldwide. And energy companies are at higher risk. In Episode 121 of thinkenergy, we discuss the urgent need for crisis readiness in Canada’s energy sector. Guest Melissa Agnes, CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute, is an authority in crisis preparedness, reputation management, and brand protection. With experience spanning NATO to global non-profits, tune in for her insight on how to fortify your brand for turbulent times.
Related links
Crisis Ready, by Melissa Agnes: https://melissaagnes.com/crisis-ready/
Melissa Agnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissaagnes/
Melissa Agnes on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/melissa_agnes
Crisis Ready Institute: https://crisisreadyinstitute.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the think energy podcast. Within the energy sector, we've seen numerous companies rise and fall in the eyes of the public when confronted by crises for which they were unprepared. As climate change, cyber attacks and other threats wreak havoc, energy companies from around the world are finding themselves more susceptible to dealing with crises on a regular basis. Here in Ottawa, we've seen our city hit with major weather events, including tornadoes, floods, freezing rain, major thunderstorms, and durational. windstorm in the last few years alone. So, take it from a company that knows - a crisis communication plan cannot be drafted and filed away on a shelf to collect dust. It's a living document that has to be integrated across the entire organization. However, emergencies and crises are unpredictable and rarely unfold as rehearsed. So our crisis program has to be flexible and practical. In a fast moving event, it is important to make sure processes are as smooth as butter. How a company communicates during a crisis has changed dramatically during my career. From the rise of the Internet, social media, smartphones and voice technology to name just a few. These new channels present opportunities to connect with your audiences, we are now able to communicate instantly directly to the public in the event of a crisis. In our space, Hydro Ottawa is seen as an authority which enables us to frame the conversation appropriately. At the same time, during a crises, all eyes are on us. And we better shine. As Warren Buffett said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. The Internet, and the communication channels that come with it also present challenges, namely, information overload. Everyone is now vying for your attention. Given all the information out there, you don't want to just be more noise, you need to stand out. So here is today's big question. If
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your phone rings tomorrow, and you're suddenly confronted with a major crises, are you and your business prepared to handle it? Do you know what steps to take to mitigate that damage? So joining me today, I have a leading authority on crisis preparedness, reputation management and brand protection. She is the founder and CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute and the author of Crisis Ready Building an Invincible Brand in an uncertain world. My very special guest today has worked with NATO Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Defense financial firms, technology companies, health care organizations, cities and municipalities, law enforcement agencies, the global nonprofit, and many others. She is a guest lecturer at universities around the world and also sits on the Global Advisory Council for the Institute for strategic risk management. Dear listeners, please welcome Melissa, Agnes. Melissa, maybe you could start by sharing with our listeners your journey into crisis management, what's a crisis management strategist? And how did you get where you are today? Lastly, what does it mean to be crisis ready?
Melissa Agnes 04:34
Okay, the three part question and I'm going to do my best to be as succinct as possible. So crisis management strategist- I view it that way. Crisis communication strategist, crisis leadership. Like I view the strategy part of it to say that it's not just reactive, right? You're not being simply reactive where you're being hit with something and you're reacting to something. You are- you need to be strategic in the way that you respond to crisis, as well as in the way that you prepare to respond to crisis. So that's the whole premise of being crisis ready, which was the third part of your question. So that's what a strategist comes in. And I'll add that it's not about, you know, PR people might look at or if people might associate it with PR and spin. It's not that at all. It's not about manipulation. It's about looking at the long term of what's happening, and essentially the relationships that matter to the organization, and looking at a crisis through a lens that says, 'What's the best way for us to respond now and over the long term", which I'm sure we'll dive more into intense conversation in a way that keeps us building strengthening trust. With your question in regards to what is does it mean to be crisis ready? The answer is right there. So crisis ready is a term that I coined well over a decade ago, because I was dissatisfied with the status quo of crisis preparedness, which is pretty much a through line throughout my entire career, as my career is based off of frustration and I don't like to complain, so I don't like complain about something and not provide a solution. So my career is always around, like what's happening in the world, what really, really doesn't just doesn't sit right with me. And then what can I do in my way to contribute right to make things better? So the crisis ready came from the frustration that crisis preparedness, quote, unquote, crisis preparedness, which the was the more common kind of terminology for it within our profession, or within the industry was about having a plan, checking that box off, that leadership could say, like, Okay, we've got a crisis management plan, or we've got a crisis communication plan, we're set. And I knew 15 years ago, 14 years ago, when I started this, that made no sense to me. So I turned the coin crisis ready to give it a specific definition, which is it's a cultural approach. It's not just about having a plan. It's about building out programs and ingraining them into the culture of the organization. So that every single member of every single team in every single department and every single division and every single region, has the skill set has the mindset and has the capabilities to identify risk and its onset, to then figure out what to do with it, like categorize it, know what to do with it. So is it an issue? Is it a crisis? What do I do? And then effectively responding to the
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incident or the situation in a way that, yes, it de escalates it quickly, yes you mitigate long term material impact, but more over that piece with crisis ready, that's very unique and very important, is you respond in a way that strengthens trust.
Dan Seguin 07:45
Okay. Sorry. Now, this is another two part question.
Melissa Agnes 07:50
Let's do it.
Dan Seguin 07:51
When a crisis hits, the last thing we want is for a company to bury their heads in the sand. Having said that, is there such a thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communications? Next, here's my other question. When might that framework help an organization deal with an actual event? communicate in real time and deal with stakeholders like elected officials, the media, employees and constituents?
Melissa Agnes 08:25
Okay, so the first part of that question is, is there such thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communication? Absolutely yes, because I teach it. That's what we do we help. So essentially, are Crisis Ready Institute exists, because there is a lack or there's a void of actually teaching the essentials for crisis communication and crisis leadership, in any aspect of our academic lives. We're not taught these things no matter what, you know, it's very, very, very rare. And if you have been taught, it was likely very recently, and probably not even to the level that I would really give it that stamp of approval, unfortunately. So yes, all of that to say that that is what Crisis Ready Institute does, that is a big part of what I do is I see complex subject matter and skills, and I'm able to kind of put them into formulas and frameworks and different things that make it make them just more comprehensible. Is that a word? That's a word, right? That's an English word. Easier to understand, easier to truly conceptualize and giving a formula for okay, it's like until that skill level is at the point that we want it to be, where its intrinsic, and it's reflexive and it's just like, something happens and you know how to respond. That you want to have those 1-2-3 steps that are actually applicable. So yes, and then this second part of your question was, I mean, the crisis ready framework is designed to be scalable from issue straight through to crisis. So obviously, we teach for the worst case scenarios. But if you can respond to the worst case scenarios in a way that, again, de escalates the situation quickly, mitigates long term material impact, and strengthens trust within the organization, both internally and externally. So essentially, strengthening brand equity, building brand equity as a result of the crisis management. Then if you can do that, in the worst times, you can do that - you can apply all of the same tactics, all of the same techniques, all of the same strategies, in issue management. And in doing that, so like the lesser degree type of situation, materially impactful type of situation. So taking that, and when you are able to do that, first of all, obviously, you nip issues in the bud, like really quickly. And secondly, the organizations that are really truly crisis ready they are less vulnerable, to crises and to risks and to, you know, the things happening because they know they have, again, it's the mindset, the skills and the
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capability to respond. And the frameworks that we have at Crisis Ready Institute are designed to be one scalable, but also building blocks. So you learn the fundamentals. And you learn how to apply them in different types of situations and scenarios with different types of mindsets and emotions and all of these different facets that play into crisis management.
Dan Seguin 11:32
Okay. How vital is it for an organization to maintain their social licence to operate? How does one safeguard its reputation?
Melissa Agnes 11:43
Okay, well, I think that you are the perfect person to answer that question. I mean, how vital is your social licence to operate, right? Like, that's reputation. That's trust. That social licence to operate, it's in the name, you can't really have a successful business in certain industries without it. And it's all about trust. It's all about - you and I were just talking about this right before we hit record, right? It's all about how much trust do you build prior to a crisis? And how well do you know how to respond to that trust remains and hopefully even strengthens as a result of effective crisis management? When it comes down to, for me, with the way that I see it to, like, simplify it as much as possible, is that strong business, solid business, successful business is built and developed on like, strong relationships. Right. So that's the social licence to operate, if you want to look at it that way. Crisis Management is about doing right by those very relationships. When it matters most when you're put to the test. It's all about trust.
Dan Seguin 12:53
If the communications plan is a living organism that helps you navigate through any disruption. Is it safe to say that it's not about dusting off that plan that just sits on that bookshelf?
Melissa Agnes 13:11
Absolutely. Things happen too fast. Things happen too fast things happen outside of the realm of what we planned for, or what we may have imagined it to be, or unfold as anybody who had a crisis management plan. And I'm saying plan, like, I'll use the words program and culture and skill set and mindset capabilities to talk about crisis ready, right. But if we're looking at it through the crisis, preparedness, going back to the start of our conversation, lens of like, let's check off that box. And let's just have that plan. Plans are linear, they're siloed. They're theoretical, more than they are practical, they become obsolete pretty much the second you put them on the shelf. And they're not ingrained. Things happen so quickly, they escalate so quickly, that to be looking around going like, oh, where's where's the plan that I think that one day, once upon a time we created, like, let's look at that and try to see. Already you're suffering Crisis Response penalty as a result of that, because you're not being effective with your time in terms of response. So anybody who had that type of plan prior to COVID, as an example, quickly, unfortunately realized and learned the hard way. How ineffective that mindset that approach is, so we really, really want to look at crisis ready as a program as a skill set as the mindset is capability that's ingrained into the culture of the organization.
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Dan Seguin 14:34
Okay, Melissa, now, let me ask you this. How can an organization transform crisis readiness into a competitive advantage?
Melissa Agnes 14:46
That's a really great question. This is one of those things that like it's really hard to sell what I do - Crisis Ready - because effectively what you're doing is you're trying to sell insurance to people who, who aren't obliged to pay purchase insurance right and human nature states that we don't want to look we want to avoid, we don't want to look at what's challenging or what's scary, or what makes us really uncomfortable, especially if we're not thrown into it and like being faced with it in the moment. So like, life is good, business is good, why would you want to look for it? Or look at what makes you uncomfortable? And the what if the downsides of the what ifs? That's really hard. And one of the ways that I've learned to do that to to sell it essentially, isn't answering that question is looking at what is the value of being crisis ready? What does it do to the team, to the culture to the morale internally, what does it do with regards to trust. And just having that culture that you know, something minor goes wrong, but you have this culture that sees that as an opportunity to strengthen relationships and to evolve as an organization as a service provider, or, you know, a product creator. So all of these different facets of like, what it means to be crisis ready with the core values assigned with crisis ready are and how they lay out day to day, not just to effectively manage crisis when it happens, or even mitigate crisis from happening. But what's the value that it brings internally and externally to increase? We'll go back to the word brand equity of your organization, there's a massive competitive advantage in those answers.
Dan Seguin 16:35
Okay, now, a little while back, I attended your amazing, it is truly amazing, a 10 week course on honing your crisis communication and leadership skills, where you stated, if I recall, that you cannot put emotion over logic. What is the role and power of emotion within issue and crisis management.
Melissa Agnes 17:00
So you can't let's let's let's flip it, you can't put logic over emotion. So the crisis ready rule is, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So just to make that clear. Emotion plays a major role in any type of crisis for every person involved, whether you're the leadership team, whether you're, you know, the members of the team who are doing different roles within managing the crisis, whether you're an outside impacted party by the crisis, you don't have a motion, you don't have crisis for that emotion. Meanwhile, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So you're speaking to as a leader, as a communicator, in times of crisis, you stand up, you rise up, and you communicate with your stakeholders who are being affected by the crisis in one way or another. Those people who are affected by the crisis in one way or another, are highly emotional, right? They have emotion and probably very deep, very real, very deep seated emotion running through them. What happens to us as human beings is emotion then comes to the forefront we're emotional beings, as human beings, no matter how logical or cerebral or rational we believe ourselves to be, we're still emotional beings, because we're human beings is the nature of how and who we are at what happens is when those high intensity, quote unquote, negative emotions kick
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into gear they come forefront, and they kind of they cloud judgment. I see it as the heart kind of coming up harping emotion coming up, and like putting this cloud around the brain, where you can't just speak or spew out logic, because the emotions are blocking it. It's clouding judgment, it's doing all kinds of things that a lot of leaders stand up and in those times, they just, they think that they just have to keep hammering out the truth and hammering out the facts that keep repeating the same things over in a very logical way. But they're missing the emotion, the emotional relatability, or the emotional, intelligent effect of it. And so in order to be able to communicate and lead effectively through crisis, you have to understand, know how to, first of all, understand emotion, the different types of emotions that that we have as an experience of being human. Understand how those like most emotions reside in our bodies, how they work, understand how to anticipate the emotions of your stakeholders, to the most extent possible. And then you have to be skilled in the ability to communicate in a way that puts the emotion first so that you can dissipate that cloud that is clouded like that's in front of the brain. I'm like doing this you can't see me when I'm like doing this visual in front of my face. But you want to dissipate that cloud that's blocking that's clouding judgment so that then you can speak to the rational, then you can speak to the logical. But trying to stand upon times of crisis when everybody is hyper emotional, and just spew out facts, you are going to miss the mark, you're not going to succeed the way that you can and should succeed.
Dan Seguin 20:11
Now Melissa, to ensure crisis readiness, how critical is it for companies to identify high risk scenarios? And pushing this further? Should we be looking at defining the different triggers and thresholds of impact?
Melissa Agnes 20:30
I would say so, first of all, identifying high risk scenarios is a part of the framework for crisis ready. So yes, so for anybody who may not understand that terminology, it's really what we're looking at is your most likely high impact types of events, situations that can put your organization into a crisis. We all have them as human beings, we all have them as organizations, as companies, as brands, whatever, however you want to word that. So yes, very, very, very important part of being crisis ready as you go through the motions. So let's say you identify just, you know, five high risk scenarios, the most likely high impact types of events to that you are susceptible or vulnerable to as an organization. Let's say you identify five. Go through the motions and part of being crisis ready is to go through the motions and becoming crisis ready for each of those five. Now, yes, absolutely. A sixth event can come out of nowhere and blindside you. But the whole going back to mindset skill set capability and culture is because you've gone through or asked. Once you've gone through the motions of truly becoming crisis ready for all of those five high risk scenarios. When the sixth one comes in, you know, turns around and hits you, or blindsides you and hitting you, you are so ready, your team is so skilled, you have everything that you need, and that it takes to be able to effectively respond to that sixth scenario, in the best timeframe as possible. So yes, identifying them doing the work to better understand them. And then in that answer the second part of that question, in that you will be looking at what would be indicators? So, so yes, triggers and indicators? And what are the thresholds of impact? So you're looking at a situation, say such a situation A, and you're saying 'At what point would situation crisis
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Scenario A be an issue for our organization? And at what point would it be a crisis?' You're really defining painting a picture of what those differences are? And then you're doing a deeper dive with the with the team and saying, Okay, what's the difference there? What are the criteria? What is the criteria that really made that customer past the threshold of issue to crisis? So you're trying to understand to the most extent possible, what are you know, what are the different aspects that make something a crisis for your organization, remembering that a crisis for one does not necessarily translate into a crisis for all.
Dan Seguin 23:07
Now, in times of major disruptions, like a power outage, or maybe even a cyber event, scanning your landscape is critical. Any recommendations on how companies should look at monitoring the social landscape and mainstream media?
Melissa Agnes 23:28
I think it should really go back to you, Dan. I think you guys do a phenomenal job at this. I mean, there's a lot to look at, and making sure that you have your baselines set up so that you know what a peak or valley looks like. You can detect it. I'd also say it's not just, you know, people go like, should we monitor every platform? Should we monitor, there's so many platforms, there's so many this, there's so many that, there's so many hashtags, so many, etc. It's really understanding your stakeholders and where you're where you have presence, right, and where that presence has impact because just because something - so one, just because something goes viral does not make it a crisis. That's not the criteria that makes it a crisis. That can be a viral issue, and not a viral crisis, right? Or a viral issue and not a crisis. And then too, just because something gets negative attention in one platform, if you don't have your course for stakeholder like the people who really mattered to the success and vitality of your business, on those platforms, and those people never hear about it, you might just have a whole bunch of haters that just aren't getting any traction. This is also about understanding what you're monitoring where, you're monitoring and why you're monitoring those, what in those squares. And then I think a third piece, I think that was two things. A third piece that I would add that is really understanding and I think this is a lot of where companies are getting it wrong right now - is understanding what is happening in the world that you transformations, the evolutions that are happening in the world and how they may or may not impact your relationship with your stakeholders, your relationship with your brand, the reputation of your organization, and to look at and be like, Oh, that's, you know, this conversation, this societal conversation or this Hot Topic doesn't apply to us to just look at something and be like, No, it doesn't apply to us without doing a deeper dive into how it might actually apply to you and how it might actually be important to the people who are important to your business is something that a lot of leaders, a lot of companies are missing the mark on right now.
Dan Seguin 25:39
Cool. Melissa, can you share with us some simple takeaways, for example, what are some of the biggest and most common mistakes an organization should avoid?
Melissa Agnes 25:52
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One of them is what we just said. Some other ones, I'll go to what we call at Crisis Ready Institute with call the CRP- the Crisis Response Penalty. So that term came out of my book, as I was writing my book, and what we're looking at there is, the longer you take to effectively respond, and I'll define what effective response is in a second. So the longer you take to effectively respond to a crisis, the more pressing credibility, you destroy the more ownership of the narrative you lose, and the more material impact you suffer. So that is the crisis response penalty, it is the penalties or the consequences of not responding properly. And effective response requires the right actions to be taken to actually fix remedy sold for you know, stop the bleeding, right the wrongs, etc, while you simultaneously communicate the way that you need to communicate and with whomever you need to be communicating with. And all of that has to happen. So actions and communications have to happen in the right timeline, and simultaneously. So if you falter on any one of those, then you're going to fail in your crisis management. And one of the biggest, most common mistakes to avoid so specifically to answer that it happened specifically to answer your question is the communication piece, because for the reasons that we've kind of already just highlighted, which are the vulnerability, the the fact that it's so uncomfortable, the fact that it's so vulnerable, the fact that people haven't been taught how to communicate with high EQ so that you can communicate through the emotions and actually resonate with the people you need to resonate with, so that they trust you and they follow your leadership? So yeah, I mean, we could go on and on and on, and on and on talking about the pitfalls to avoid. But even just looking at it as a framework of that crisis response penalty, what that means, what is involved in making sure you don't suffer a crisis response penalty, and making sure that your team has, again, the mindset, the skill set and the capability to not make those mistakes.
Dan Seguin 28:06
Cool. That's a great segue, Melissa. Before signing off here, I'm hoping you can maybe share what are some of the requirements for a strong and effective narrative during a crises, but also ways to ensure we maintain that consistent tone, and stay on message.
Melissa Agnes 28:29
I mean, we there's a formula that we use at Crisis Ready Institute, which is an it would take about, yeah, we could go into detail in it if we wanted to, but we teach it, it takes a while. But we really want to look at validate understanding emotions, validating those motions, relating to those emotions, and then coming in with your logic. And when you come in with your logic or your rationale, and you know, the directives and all the things that are very cerebral versus emotional, you want to make sure that you're having this balance of providing reassurance, providing hope, and having the courage to hold that space, that uncomfortable space, where the emotion sets. So as a framework, super high level, that's what you want to be making sure you're hitting, and I want to make sure that I answer your question properly. So strong narrative. So having that, having that framework will help to keep you addressing the things that are important to address that a lot of times leaders and communicators don't feel comfortable doing so they avoid them, which creates CRP Crisis Response penalty. And when you're doing that, you're doing that balance of risk providing reassurance, and hope and courage you're looking at. So just say, where you said I had to help maintain a consistent tone and stay on message. That's where you make sure that you're always checking in you're doing that you also want to make
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sure, so part of that is understanding what actually want what actually matters to people and making sure you're hitting those points, but also anticipating, anticipating the questions, anticipating the concerns, anticipating the fears and all of these, you know, things that we can anticipate if we take the time and put the attention to doing that, and making sure that you're getting ahead of the things that you can get ahead of, so that you're not always playing catch up.
Dan Seguin 30:27
Okay, very cool. Melissa, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Melissa Agnes 30:35
I'm ready. Let's do it.
Dan Seguin 30:37
Now, maybe you could start us off by sharing with our listeners. What are you reading right now?
Melissa Agnes 30:44
I actually just finished reading it. It's called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks and I highly, highly, highly recommend it.
Dan Seguin 30:50
Okay, next one, Melissa. Who is someone that you admire?
Melissa Agnes 30:55
I admire a lot of people. My significant other I admire him greatly. People on my team I admire greatly. There's a lot of people that I admire.
Dan Seguin 31:05
Okay. What is your favorite movie or show?
Melissa Agnes 31:09
On right now? Oh, man. I mean, I would say like Friends to me is like my all time favorite. What have we watched recently? We watched - I'm so bad with names and remembering this stuff. Silo was good. Shrinking was good. There was one recently there's one with Amanda Seyfried that I really enjoyed. I was sick last week and I like binged it over the weekend because I just got better. That one was called the Crowded Room. Yeah, I think there's a bunch of good things out right now. Oh, we just watched over the weekend we watched it's a movie about dogs, what's it called - Strays! With their like the voices of ...I don't know but strays, however, I will say that it looks like it's it's family friendly. But it is not. Don't let your kids watch it. It's very adult friendly. But it's hilarious.
Dan Seguin 32:03
Okay, next one, aside from necessities. What one thing could you not go without in a day?
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Melissa Agnes 32:12
Okay this sounds so corny but emotional connection with my significant other. We travel a lot so I think checking in with each other, like just tapping in and making sure that - he's different from me in that I kind of get my good mornings and my good nights and things like that. I don't think I could go without those.
Dan Seguin 32:30
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now.
Melissa Agnes 32:35
Oh, exciting, and that frustrated me. Um, the thing that I'm working on right now I'm working on, you know, I'm calling it my quote unquote, next big thing. That's really exciting to me. So new content, new things that are coming, that I think will, again, stemmed from a frustration in the world. And we touched a little bit on some of it during this conversation, but the, um, it'll be my next book. It'll be my next TEDx Talk. It'll be a whole bunch of things. And that's, that's kind of keeping me fired up. I'm very excited about that.
Dan Seguin 33:06
Well, Melissa, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, your organization, how can they connect?
Melissa Agnes 33:19
Melissa Agnes, I'm on social. I'm primarily on LinkedIn, definitely. IG definitely. That's pretty much it. Where I'm like, actually active and then crisisreadyinstitute.com Or just crisisready.com. You can find all kinds of stuff there as well as to connect with me.
Dan Seguin 33:36
Again, Melissa, thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Melissa Agnes 33:41
I did. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 33:44
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply is also on the rise. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future.
Related links
● Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/
● Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger
● IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/
● Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innovation-Fund/Overview
● Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth
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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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TRANSCRIPT:
Daniel Seguin:
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment.
Daniel Seguin:
At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system?
Lesley Gallinger:
The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes.
Daniel Seguin:
Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy?
Lesley Gallinger:
As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead.
Daniel Seguin:
Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities.
Daniel Seguin:
Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario,
Lesley Gallinger:
The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time, Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid? Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions.
Daniel Seguin:
Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis?
Lesley Gallinger:
So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario.
Daniel Seguin:
Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful
Daniel Seguin:
Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation. From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September.
Daniel Seguin:
Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.
Daniel Seguin:
Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Lesley Gallinger:
I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.
Daniel Seguin:
Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.
Daniel Seguin:
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.
Daniel Seguin:
Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Lesley Gallinger:
Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.
Daniel Seguin:
Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Lesley Gallinger:
I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO.
Daniel Seguin:
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
As Canadians depend more and more on an electrified grid, safety and reliability are at the core of the conversation. How are we improving the grid’s resilience to climate change and extreme weather? How are we accommodating increased capacity as more people electrify their lives? In episode 99 of thinkenergy, we discuss future proofing the grid and what exactly that means with Guillaume Paradis, Chief Electricity Distribution Officer at Hydro Ottawa.
Related links
Guillaume Paradis, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721/
Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety
Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:28
Hey, everyone, welcome back. There's a great analogy I read recently that compared future proofing the electricity grid to Wayne Gretzky. And since this is our 99th episode, woohoo, it just seems fitting that we make our reference to the great one. What made Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player of all time, was not his speed or the uncanny accuracy of his shots, but rather his ability to predict where the puck was going to be an instant before it arrived. utilities like Wayne Gretzky have the ability to anticipate events and predict patterns that can make them more prepared for extreme weather events as a utility, planning and predicting the future is part of our DNA. And as we all prepare to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the feds, provincial and municipal governments, we are seeing a lot of future planning happening to make the electricity system as clean and as resilient as possible. And part of that is predicting what the future will look like, from what energy sources will power our electricity supply, but also what kind of challenges like electrification and threats like extreme weather we will face? So here's today's big question. How can utilities earn customer confidence as they transition towards an electrified grid that can also withstand unpredictable weather to safely and reliably deliver energy. Today's guest is Guillaume packaging. As the chief electricity distribution officer at hydro Ottawa, Guillaume is responsible for planning, design, operations, constructions and maintenance of our nation's capitol electrical power distribution system. In his role, Guillaume leads a team directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to hydro Ottawa customers. Guillaume has over a decade of industry experience in progressive leadership roles ranging from research program management, to distribution planning, asset management, design, and construction. Thanks for joining us on the show today.
Guillaume Paradis 02:56
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 02:57
You've been in the industry for more than a decade now, what's been the biggest change or shift you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 03:05
So what I'd say has been the most significant change over that time period is that we've actually gone from talking about very exciting things and future focus opportunities. So we've gone from talking about them to actually getting to implement them. So some of the things that were on the horizon 10 years ago, and 15 years ago, in fact, were related to electric vehicles, the proliferation of battery storage technology, the development of the smart grid, and over that period of time, through those conversations, we've actually been able to shift the industry to a place where we're actually delivering on some of those promises. So that's very, very exciting. It's a massive challenge for everyone involved, but unlocks a whole series of possibilities, that when I started my career, we were only talking and thinking about,
Dan Seguin 04:08
Okay, what does future proofing the electricity grid really mean? What kind of plans and predictions are you making to help the grid withstand climate change?
Guillaume Paradis 04:20
So future proofing is an interesting one, because, you know, ultimately, all of your success depends on your ability to forecast and forecasting. Currently, with the changing landscape with the pace at which policy is being updated, refreshed, and modified, it is quite challenging. So we've gone from an environment where you could look at decade's worth of data, use a little bit of economic information, and forecasts and combine those things into what would turn out to be a pretty useful and fairly accurate prediction of what your system would be required to deliver. So we've gone from that to an environment where in a matter of, you know, sometimes months, you know, the underlying basis for your predictions as totally been changed. And you have, or you're having to revisit your assumptions from, frankly, a quarter to the next. So, future proofing right now, in my mind is about, you know, keeping an eye out for what's coming. So being able to anticipate what's ahead, being able to stay abreast of all the trends, making, what I would call incremental adjustments to our practices today that ensure that if, and when the future, you know, more specifically crystallizes, we can take advantage of the opportunities, and we're not having to redo too much work, but also without betting too much on one outcome, where we may not have the certainty of what's ahead. So, you know, that's true when you look at the full landscape. And specifically, when we're looking at the predictions around climate change, it's about at a minimum, being very responsive to the more recent events. So using that to update your predictions. And recently, unfortunately, with respect to climate, you know, we've seen what would have been deemed, you know, one in 1000, or one in 100 year events occur at a frequency that far exceeds, you know, what predictions would have called for. And we have to recognize that as being the new trend, despite not having the benefit of 100 years of events in that new paradigm that we find ourselves in. So, you know, from a climate standpoint, I think we have to be a little farther out, and expect that recent data points actually represent the new reality, as opposed to relying on the longer trend that we would like to count on, which is 50-100 years or beyond. So from a climate standpoint, at this point, our assumption is, you know, what's happened recently looks a lot more like what's expected to happen to us in the next few years. And in fact, you know, we're looking to build a little bit of contingency or buffer into our predictions, assuming that it might get a little worse.
Dan Seguin 07:40
Now, why does future proofing the grid go hand in hand with electrification, and clean energy,
Guillaume Paradis 07:48
So electrification and clean energy come down to, in my view, increasing our society's resilience, resilience and dependence on our electricity infrastructure. So, you know, for many years now, many decades, the electricity system has been the underpinning of our modern society. But even more so as we move more of our energy use to the electricity system, it becomes paramount ensure that the infrastructure we have is able to support and maintain with a high level of redundancy, you know, that modern lifestyle where more of what we do is electrified, clean energy, in its various forms, you know, supports our ability to electrify more of our activities, but also from a planning standpoint introduces a bit of a new challenge, in terms of intermittency. And so our ability to have an underlying asset base distribution system or transmission system that is highly redundant and highly secure, to enable and support the use of renewable energy is critical. And so that's where future proofing is really about, you know, ensuring that the bet we're making as a society, which is electrifying to improve the outlook on our climate change objectives, is actually possible going forward.
Dan Seguin 09:29
Don't I've got a follow up question here. What does a self healing grid mean?
Guillaume Paradis 09:35
You know, in a nutshell, self healing is about leveraging technology and automation to ensure that when an issue occurs, whether it be a failure, or an externality, like a tree, you know, impacting our infrastructure. We use that technology that automation to most rapidly re structure and rearrange our distribution system to minimize the impact of those events. So it's really about leveraging automation, you know, rapid communication, we now have access to using the computational power that is also available to us. And letting those tools make the preliminary decision on how best to restore power, before there's a human interaction that comes in to take care of the final steps. So really, if you think about it, and how far we've come in the last 20 years with computer power and communication tools, it's really bringing the latest and the best of those technologies to bear on how we restore power to our customers.
Dan Seguin 10:45
After the May Dereocho, a lot of people were asking why utilities don't bury all overhead lines? What's your answer to that Gil?
Guillaume Paradis 10:55
So yeah, it comes up every time there's a storm, and it's, it's perfectly understandable. And I think there's a couple things that come into play when we think about, you know, what is best to deliver power to our customers. Certainly, you know, we've been talking about redundancy in an underground system, when it comes to certain types of climate related events, like large storms, or wind storms, you know, introduce a certain level of security that exceeds what is possible with an overhead system. But the other very important element as we think about electrification going forward, is the element of cost, and affordability of power. And, you know, just from a comparison standpoint, the basic math, you know, when evaluating underground alternatives to overhead systems, is about a 10 to one cost ratio. So certainly when we look at, you know, where best to invest dollars, and how best to bring power to communities, that cost component is factored in and becomes a consideration, particularly when you look at lower density areas, or farther away areas from production centers, it becomes a costly proposition. Now, what we're looking to do going forward is we see undergrounding as a strategic tool in improving our climate resilience. And so we're going to look at certain corridors, perhaps, or certain targeted investments to underground infrastructure, to try to get the most value possible for our customers as we plan for, you know, an elevated climate challenge in the future. But that consideration around costs is significant. And finally, what I'd say as well is, you know, your ability to restore power when there's a problem with overhead infrastructure is far greater than it is when an underground system fails. And so in addition to that cost component, the ability to restore power quickly, when there is a problem is higher with an overhead infrastructure.
Dan Seguin 13:10
At the beginning of the last century, it was the Industrial Revolution. This century is shaping up to be an electrical revolution. How confident are you about the grid's capacity, as more and more people electrify their cars, and eventually, their homes?
Guillaume Paradis 13:32
So how confident I would say very confident. And that's not to minimize the scale of the challenge ahead of us. You're correct, we're now proposing to essentially, you know, completely shift the dynamics around electricity. In a matter of, you know, I would like to say decades, but it's essentially a decade at this point. And so it's a very complex challenge from an engineering standpoint and a planning standpoint. But I've seen how the conversation and the thinking has evolved over the last 1015 years in our industry, I've seen the technologies that are being brought forward as tools to be leveraged to enable that transition to a more electric future. And, you know, the significant load growth, I will come with that. So I think we have the tools, we need to maintain a high level of awareness and adaptability in, you know, facing what's ahead of us. We can't fall back on old habits or, you know, make excuses when we have solutions we want to implement and we know we need to implement to enable that electrified future, but I think We will get there. And I've seen all sorts of signs pointing to that possibility. And it's going to come down to once again making the most of all the tools we have. So we talked about technology earlier, we're going to have to leverage technology to manage how electric vehicles are charged, and when, and in what parts of the city and how best to leverage the existing infrastructure to do that, because we know, we can just build or double the size of our electric infrastructure to accommodate that growth. So we're going to have to be more refined, we're going to have to leverage all the tools available to us, including distributed energy resources, but I think we will get there and I like what I'm seeing from all the stakeholders across the industry, and thinking and adapting to that new reality.
Dan Seguin 15:50
Here's another follow up question. What would you say to those who are worried about reliability and power outages?
Guillaume Paradis 15:59
I would say that's our main focus. And so it's completely normal to have some concerns in a context where more of our lives become dependent on the electricity system. And but, you know, on our end, from an electricity industry standpoint, reliability has been forever, essentially, you know, the focus of our energy and our attention. And now we all understand that, we need to elevate the reliability standards that have been developed over the last decades. And so we have, once again, certain tools we can leverage to do that. So again, not to say it's not significant, we have to go from, you know, what has been a 99.998% availability to something even closer to 100%. Because we know our customers depend on our infrastructure more than ever. But we're working on that. And we're going to bring in some tools that will help us support that outcome. And certainly, you know, we talked about automation, but things like battery storage, becoming more prevalent, you know, within the landscape, including the batteries of electric vehicles, over time, will be one of those examples of new tools that we can try to leverage to deliver, deliver that elevated level of reliability that our customers will expect in our society will need.
Dan Seguin 17:33
Okay, thanks. Yeah, there will be power outages, we can't avoid that. Knowing that, what are some of the things customers could or should consider doing to be better prepared?
Guillaume Paradis 17:46
Yeah. So that's another interesting question with respect to what we've seen in the last few years. So even just through some of the climate related events that we've experienced, you know, longer duration outages related to tornadoes are due to Russia more recently, one of the basic things that everyone is encouraged to do and we try to promote is, you know, developing a plan for the household, right, or for, you know, your business if you're a commercial customer, but think about what things look like, from your perspective. In the event of an outage of various durations that like, you know, the basic exercise would be to think about something of short duration, say two hours of less or less than looking at something a bit more prolonged like six hours, and then going to the next step of saying, what happens if it's more than 24 hours. And you know, if you go to our website, and the website of, you know, many of our peer utilities, most offer a set of resources around how to build a toolkit to be able to remain safe and function through certain duration outages. And then, of course, if you want to go beyond that for certain critical customers, and that conversation is ongoing, and everyone's minds already been turned to that, but looking at other alternatives, like on site generation, energy storage, generators, of course, being the traditional option, but looking to secure some critical processes with on site generation where possible. So building resilience is something that we've worked on, you know, for decades, through our infrastructure investments, of course, but working with customers, and more so than ever again, as we electrify many more aspects of our lives. We need to ensure that everyone appreciates and recognizes what may be required if power was to for hopefully a very short amount of time not be available.
Dan Seguin 20:03
Now, what kind of planning and predictions are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to electrification?
Guillaume Paradis 20:13
So the short term is probably the most interesting element now, because it's been a little difficult to figure out exactly when things would land. So what we're seeing today, and that's ongoing now, is that, you know, certainly many customers are actively looking at reducing their impact in terms of carbon footprint. And they're looking at doing that through electrification. And so we're seeing a lot of activity where customers choose to switch to fuel, which would be essentially moving away from using carbon intensive energy resources for things like heating, and then leveraging our infrastructure to support that. So when that happens at a campus level, or for commercial customers, that can be a significant growth in the demand on the electricity system. So we're fairly able to project what that looks like. And it's been happening at a good pace. On the electric vehicle adoption side of things we've been monitoring for over a decade now, we've been, you know, doing some modeling, some predictions, we've worked with, you know, external stakeholders to put together studies that would help us understand the impact. The thing that has been challenging, certainly over the last two years is that there's now a clear gap between the market demand with or for electric vehicles, and what manufacturers and the supply chains are able to make available to that market. So figuring out the exact timing has become a little more challenging, where we would have expected to see, you know, a very steady growth, but a significant growth that would eventually turn into sort of a complete shift to electric vehicle purchases. Whereas it's taking a bit longer, I think, to occur than we would have, frankly, hoped for, but also expected, it's getting, it's gotten us or given us a bit more time as supposed to plan for it. But certainly from an electrification standpoint, and the predictions that we're making, we're seeing electric vehicles being sort of pervasive across our distribution system. It'll occur over a certain number of years, but we will have electric vehicle charging occur all over service territory. And certainly from a fleet standpoint, once again, as soon as some of the manufacturers manage to ramp up their capacity to produce vehicles, we're expecting to see more and more fleet operators move their entire operation to electric vehicles. And so we're preparing for that as well.
Dan Seguin 22:58
Now, Guillaume, tell me, what keeps you up at night, then, talk to me about what gives you hope.
Guillaume Paradis 23:06
So what still keeps me up at night. And I think that's just a virtue of the environment. And the industry that we're in is the safety of our team. And, frankly, anyone who interacts with our infrastructures, so that that's something that we easily forget in our society, considering how, you know, ubiquitous energy electricity is, it's just the sheer power that that electricity represents, and how close in proximity it comes to many people, certainly our workforce, you know, physically interacts with that infrastructure every day. And so ensuring that we remain safe at all times is critical. But it's the same for our customers and anyone who comes close to the electricity infrastructure. And so that's, that's first and foremost, I think it's just, you know, a reality of what we do, distributing electricity. But certainly just the general pace of change is interesting, I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, because I'm worried it keeps me up at night because it's exciting. And there's so much possibilities that come with what's ahead to a degree that we've frankly, never seen in our industry. And so it's just a completely exciting time to be part of the electricity industry. We just got to make sure that we do everything we can to leverage what's coming for the benefit of our customers and to power our community. But you know, there are much worse things to be kept up at night by and I think it's just a lot of energy. Literally, I suppose, coming to all of us, you know around the organization in the industry. Well, hope is So we have, you know, so many bright colleagues, so many people looking at what's, you know, ahead and what's upon us, that we're uniquely positioned to help, you know, our, all societies across the globe, deliver on, you know, what is, you know, the generational challenge of climate change. So we're, you know, it's, it's not often that you're part of an industry that can have such a significant impact on such a large problem. And so to be right in the middle of it, and having a key role in enabling the aspiration of our entire society, is really exciting. And, you know, having the chance to take tangible and real concrete actions to get us all there is fantastic. So the hope comes from the energy of everyone involved, and the talent of everyone in Walt involved, and the passion that they bring to solving this massive, massive challenge that we have ahead of us.
Dan Seguin 26:12
Moving on here, what role does hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
Guillaume Paradis 26:22
So that the, I think the unique perspective that we bring, so certainly, electrifying period, right, so we're, we're, you know, an alternative to dirtier sources, particularly here in Ontario, where we can still count on an electricity system that is very significantly, you know, supplied by renewable energy resources. So we're sort of a platform for greenhouse gas reduction, just by virtue of electrification. So that is a significant role. And even more importantly, we also have, you know, an opportunity to be direct partners with industries, stakeholders, businesses, commercial actors, who are actually trying to reduce their greenhouse gases, footprint and impact. And so we're, we're part of the conversation and what we do differently than other businesses is, we think and plan in decades, and, you know, in Windows of 25, and 50 years, and so we've been here 100 years, we're expecting to be here, you know, many 100 more. And so we have that long term perspective that we can bring to the table, when engaging with other stakeholders who maybe think more on a sort of business case level in terms of three and five year paybacks, we're actually able to bring in that long term perspective to inform their decision making. So it's pretty unique, frankly, and, and we're also in many, many cases, in a position where we're trusted advisors. So there has been that trust built over decades of being reliable and available. And so we're seen as or as almost impartial in the process of electrifying and reducing greenhouse gases. And so again, we can bring that perspective to bear when supporting our customers and making those decisions and enabling those objectives of more sustainable activities.
Dan Seguin 28:43
Sorry about this Guillaume, but I've got a follow up question, what are some of the initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help customers in this area?
Guillaume Paradis 28:51
So we have essentially the full inventory of initiatives. So from a customer standpoint, we work with them at the facility level, we have, you know, our key account representatives, we're sort of their energy advisors on demand. And so, you know, that is a direct line between customers and all the portfolios and all the options that are available in the industry. So that's, that's big, because it's, it's almost working with them from the inception of their plans to try to bring them to, you know, that future of a lower carbon footprint. And so, you know, we're very active in that space. You know, from an energy standpoint and an energy system standpoint, we see our responsibility as being the local enabler of local renewable energy resources, and a more efficient use of energy, you know, in our community and in the communities that we serve. And so we're working with industry stakeholders, particularly regulatory agencies, and better informing their approach to enabling those resources to make sure that when customers approach us with their solar generation project, or with their battery storage project, we find the best way to make that investment work for them financially, but also for our community from a greenhouse gas standpoint. And so we have a very important role in sort of acting as an interface between, you know, our constituents, and the regulatory agencies that govern what we do. And that's fundamental to making that green future possible. Because we're essentially, you know, ending an entire regulatory framework, and an entire industry paradigm on the fly, as people make those decisions, to invest differently. And so that advisor role is critical, that advocacy role is critical. And you know, more specifically, we have a wide variety of programs, all available in great detail on our website, to help customers think through the decisions that they're making with respect to energy.
Dan Seguin 31:21
Now, what are your thoughts on distributed energy resources, what kind of challenges or opportunities do they pose?
Guillaume Paradis 31:32
Not only a great opportunity, but a necessary piece of that puzzle coming together with respect to electrifying and proceeding with that energy transition that we've all embarked on. And that going forward with the combination of a growing demand for electricity, and some of the challenges brought about by climate change, will need to be able to leverage energy resources closer to where the demand actually exists. And distributed energy resources are sort of the elementary building blocks that will allow us to do that where by having a generation closer to our customers within our community here in Ottawa, for example, and in Castleman, we'll be able to ensure that we're not reliant on power coming from, you know, hundreds of kilometers away somewhere across the province. And that under more scenarios, contingency or otherwise, we're able to leverage what's here to ensure that our customers stay power through whatever may come and so the D ers bolt in meeting capacity requirements going forward and meeting resilience expectations will be essential. And so once again, they in terms of scaling up to, you know, many 1000s within Ottawa, Ottawa, they represent a pretty significant engineering challenge in rethinking our control systems, our, you know, engineering decisions, but they're a necessary and important building block, and therefore much larger of an opportunity than they are a threat. And we just need to spend the next few years continuing to evolve our ability to leverage those in real time to meet our future objectives.
Dan Seguin 33:30
Okay, yeah, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guillaume Paradis 33:38
Okay,we'll give it a shot.
Dan Seguin 33:40
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Guillaume Paradis 33:43
So, I'm not sure if the timing of this conversation will matter. But certainly leading up to Remembrance Day, I sort of tend to go back to at least one book, you know, related to war, and the impacts of war. And so I've gotten back into reading August by Barbara Tuchman. So that's sort of one of my favorite books about the start of the First World War. Just very well written. And every time I go back to it, I'm just inspired by the quality of the storytelling, but I have this bad habit of reading multiple books at the same time, which typically takes me forever to get through them. I've started Dawn of everything or the dawn of everything, which is a complicated but very interesting reevaluation of how modern enlightenment thinking has evolved in Europe through the influence of some of the North American First Nations. It is a very interesting topic there. And also reading An old classic and letters from a stoic by Seneca when I managed to not fall asleep at 1230 Each night, but those are the three books that are on my night table right now.
Dan Seguin 35:16
Now, what would you name your boat? If you have one? Or maybe do you have one?
Guillaume Paradis 35:22
I do not. And I would let my kids name it. And so I expect it would be called something related to Paw Patrol, or the latest show that they're on these days. But I would certainly not shoulder that responsibility. And I would ask my kids to decide what the name should be,
Dan Seguin 35:47
Who is someone that you admire, Guillaume?
Guillaume Paradis 35:50
I'm going to stay on the same theme with that one. And I think I have to say, I admire my wife. And I do because I get to watch her in action every single day. And I see how she tackles problems. And she multitasks and makes problems go away that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And so the relentless energy or determination that she applies to everything she does, is really a big inspiration for me. So, you know, surely there are others, you know, in our history or otherwise, that could be inspirations, but no one resonates in my life, quite to the degree that my wife does.
Dan Seguin 36:35
Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 36:42
Fair, that's, that's a tricky one. I think, not the engineering type talking about science here. But I think just there's two extremes that are either dead technologies that we've managed to develop. And one of the ones I think of occasionally, is them, computers and the chips and the microprocessors we've been to develop, able to develop and just the sheer scale, and the complexity that we've been able to create there. Otherwise, things like CRISPR, for genetic splicing, I just still can't quite wrap my head around how that's possible. But we're able to do things with DNA now that are just, you know, stuff of science fiction 20 years ago, anything to do with space exploration, and deploying, you know, telescopes in space or launching probes to Mars, I still don't understand how we managed to do that, without something failing more often than it does. And otherwise, the other extreme, I would say is, is just nature, right. And that's exactly what we're all working on today, across the globe, is recognizing that what we have, you know, around us, our planet is just beyond amazing, and, you know, almost incomprehensible in complexity. And we have a responsibility to take care of that. But I think, you know, whenever we have, I have the chance of stepping out of the city and just looking around at nature for a few minutes, you have to kind of be reminded of how unlikely it all seems that something so complex, so beautiful, would come together. And so I think, you know, in the real world, those things are as close as we can get to magic, really.
Dan Seguin 38:38
Okay, this is an interesting one, Guillaume. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guillaume Paradis 38:46
That's a tricky one to think through. Because there's been so much that seems to have happened over the last 24 months - and now 30 months of the pandemic, I would say just having to constantly adapt without what seemed for a while a real frame of reference, right. So if you take yourself back to the early days of the pandemic, in particular, it just seemed like every other week, we would, we would be learning new things about how the pandemic would work and how forecasts look as to how we might get out of that situation. And so, you know, I'm someone who loves change in general. But even for me, in those early days, it just seemed a little bit unsettling to feel like every other week, you had to rethink a lot of your decisions, a lot of your planning a lot of the ways in which you thought you could protect yourself, your colleagues in your family, and so just having to do that on an ongoing basis for an extended period of time. Like that was very, very challenging. And so I'd probably put that as the biggest challenge. But obviously, you know, everything else that flowed from there was back to our society or friends and family or colleagues. That was just a very, very unique situation to work through in general, right?
Dan Seguin 40:11
We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, what is your favorite movie or your favorite show?
Guillaume Paradis 40:19
So I watch just about anything that comes up, that I can sort of sit through for more than 15 minutes that sort of detest now. We've all watched so much TV over the last few years that if something can capture your attention for 15 minutes, that's probably a good sign. I always, and that might be a boring answer. But I always end up going back to, you know, one of the classics and Seinfeld. So, you know, you look at what's available. And, you know, sometimes you just don't have the energy to start something new. And I just go back to it, I found it's aged fairly well, some of the humor in there is quite timeless. And so it's sort of like a comforting blanket almost at this point, they just go back to a couple old Seinfeld episodes.
Dan Seguin 41:12
Lastly, sir, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Guillaume Paradis 41:18
I mean, I've said it a few times already. But just the opportunity to be in the middle of all that change. Like, it's such an important time in our societies evolution, I would not want to be on the sidelines of watching that unfold. And I think, you know, being so centrally positioned to help us all achieve those really big aspirations we have with respect to climate and the environment. I think that's great, right? And we have the tools, we have the energy we have, you know, everyone is willing, and so we just have to do it. So I think, you know, it's such a source of inspiration and energy. That, you know, I couldn't ask for more frankly, electricity was always important. And I was always something that made our industry very intriguing, and, you know, interesting, but that has been taken to a whole new level in the last little while. And for the foreseeable future, that, you know, there's going to be an endless supply of energy for all of us to solve those big problems.
Dan Seguin 42:31
Well, Guillaume, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and our organization, how could they connect?
Guillaume Paradis 42:45
So certainly, you know, go to our website, we've just launched a brand new website for a group of companies, I believe. It's under the name of power as one.com. Otherwise, our hydro auto website, of course, I wouldn't encourage you to find out more about me, I'm not that important. But check out the resources we have on our website. Our organization in particular is doing all sorts of novel and cool things, whether it be across Portage power, and vari Hebrew networks, or hydro Ottawa limited. So check out what we have there and reach out, you'll see all sorts of channels on there that you can use to engage with us. We're actively looking for everyone's input as we think about the future of energy. And so please come forward with whatever creative solutions you have. And I assure you, we'll consider them.
Dan Seguin 43:46
Again, Guillaume, merci beaucoup, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Guillaume Paradis 43:52
Cheers. And it was great. Thank you, Dan, for having me.
Dan Seguin 43:55
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Summer Rewind: The Canadian Climate Institute’s Big Switch
Reaching Canada’s net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada’s electricity sector in order to hit the country’s net zero goals.
Related links
Website: https://climateinstitute.ca/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadianclimateinstitute/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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Summer Rewind: The 2030 EV Action Plan with Electric Mobility Canada
Summer Rewind: The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada’s commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035. That’s a considerable investment to get Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there’s still a lot to be done.
Related links
LinkedIn, Daniel Breton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
LinkedIn, Electric Mobility Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-mobility-canada/
Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/
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Summer Rewind: Responding to emergencies and disasters with the Canadian Red Cross – thinkenergy Podcast Episode 103
When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organisation, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.
Related links
The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.
Guy Lepage 03:16
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:17
Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?
Guy Lepage 03:27
You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.
Dan Seguin 05:13
Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?
Guy Lepage 05:20
I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.
Dan Seguin 06:16
Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?
Guy Lepage 06:30
Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.
Dan Seguin 10:05
Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?
Guy Lepage 10:21
I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.
Dan Seguin 11:51
Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?
Guy Lepage 12:21
Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.
Dan Seguin 14:20
I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?
Guy Lepage 14:33
That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.
Dan Seguin 15:55
Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?
Guy Lepage 16:26
Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.
Dan Seguin 17:44
Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?
Guy Lepage 17:55
That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.
Dan Seguin 19:43
Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment
Guy Lepage 19:59
There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.
Dan Seguin 22:39
Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?
Guy Lepage 22:47
There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.
Dan Seguin 25:24
Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?
Guy Lepage 25:47
House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.
Guy Lepage 28:00
Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,
Guy Lepage 28:13
I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.
Dan Seguin 29:52
This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?
Guy Lepage 30:15
Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.
Dan Seguin 32:55
Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?
Guy Lepage 33:05
Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?
Guy Lepage 33:51
There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.
Dan Seguin 35:34
Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?
Guy Lepage 35:44
I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.
Dan Seguin 36:28
Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guy Lepage 36:35
K, I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 36:36
Okay, cool.
Dan Seguin 36:37
Now, what are you reading right now?
Guy Lepage 36:40
I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.
Dan Seguin 36:54
Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?
Guy Lepage 37:01
No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.
Dan Seguin 37:06
Now, who is someone that you admire?
Guy Lepage 37:09
My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.
Dan Seguin 37:26
Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guy Lepage 37:34
Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.
Dan Seguin 37:53
Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guy Lepage 38:01
I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.
Dan Seguin 38:27
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?
Guy Lepage 38:36
I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.
Dan Seguin 39:02
Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?
Guy Lepage 39:15
redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.
Dan Seguin 39:30
Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Guy Lepage 39:37
Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.
Dan Seguin 39:50
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together.
Related links
Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy
Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy
The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp
The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/
Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/
Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,
Dan Seguin 00:28
Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.
Dan Seguin 01:27
These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?
Monica Gattinger 02:55
Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.
Dan Seguin 04:11
Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?
Monica Gattinger 04:20
Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.
Dan Seguin 05:10
Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?
Monica Gattinger 05:32
That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.
Dan Seguin 07:17
Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?
Monica Gattinger 07:32
Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.
Dan Seguin 09:05
Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?
Monica Gattinger 09:19
That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.
Dan Seguin 10:50
Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?
Monica Gattinger 10:56
So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.
Dan Seguin 12:47
Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?
Monica Gattinger 13:11
Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.
Dan Seguin 16:27
Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?
Monica Gattinger 16:42
Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing
Dan Seguin 17:37
Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?
Monica Gattinger 17:49
Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?
Dan Seguin 21:40
Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?
Monica Gattinger 21:46
Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.
Dan Seguin 25:02
Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?
Monica Gattinger 25:09
Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.
Dan Seguin 26:15
Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?
Monica Gattinger 26:28
That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.
Dan Seguin 30:32
Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?
Monica Gattinger 30:44
Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.
Dan Seguin 34:12
Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.
Monica Gattinger 34:29
Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.
Dan Seguin 37:50
Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?
Monica Gattinger 38:07
Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.
Dan Seguin 41:07
I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?
Monica Gattinger 41:19
Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.
Dan Seguin 42:43
Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?
Monica Gattinger 42:47
So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.
Dan Seguin 44:25
Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.
Monica Gattinger 44:39
Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.
Dan Seguin 46:53
Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?
Monica Gattinger 47:06
Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.
Dan Seguin 49:24
Lastly, Monica, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.
Monica Gattinger 49:33
Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.
Monica Gattinger 49:36
Here we go.What are you reading right now?
Monica Gattinger 49:39
I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.
Dan Seguin 49:52
Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?
Monica Gattinger 49:58
I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.
Dan Seguin 50:05
Okay, who is someone that you really admire?
Monica Gattinger 50:09
Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,
Dan Seguin 50:26
Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness?
Monica Gattinger 50:33
That's a tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.
Dan Seguin 51:06
Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,
Monica Gattinger 51:13
My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.
Dan Seguin 51:58
Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie
Monica Gattinger 52:06
I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.
Dan Seguin 52:45
Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.
Monica Gattinger 52:50
I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.
Dan Seguin 53:20
Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?
Monica Gattinger 53:35
We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.
Dan Seguin 53:55
Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.
Monica Gattinger 53:59
This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Dan Seguin 54:03
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
What challenges and opportunities do Ottawa residents face as Canada moves towards net zero? In episode 114 of thinkenergy, host Dan Seguin chats with the former Mayor of Ottawa to find out. Jim Durrell is a distinguished personality, with an extensive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Listen as he shares his experience as Chair of Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. since 2012, including recent changes to the electricity sector and his vision for the future of energy in Ottawa.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Those rollers me and welcome back. Our guest today is a distinguished personality, with an extensive and impressive career in sports, politics, and the energy sector. Jim Durrell, Former Mayor of Ottawa and Chair of the Board at Hydro Ottawa. Attended Acadia University at the age of 17, where he was the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. He learned valuable lessons during this experience, which helped shape his future career. He has a passion for sports, and a commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa, including the 1988 Grey Cup game, and a triple A baseball franchise to the city. Jim served as the president of the Ottawa Senators, and has been inducted in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame as a builder. We will talk to Jim about how these achievements prepared him for his role as a mayor and the many board positions he has held, including his current role as Chair of Hydro Ottawa. Jim will share with us the biggest changes he has seen in the electricity sector since he joined the board in 2012. And his vision for Ottawas energy future. So, here is today's big question for Jim. What are the greatest challenges and opportunities that Ottawa residents face in moving towards Net Zero? Jim, welcome to the show. I understand you went to Acadia University in Nova Scotia at the tender age of 17. While there you were the quarterback and CO captain of the Acadia Axman football team. What are some of the valuable lessons that this experience taught you?
Jim Durrell 02:32
I'd have to say that, and it's a generalization about football. Unlike a lot of other sports and basketball, you can be an unbelievable player and carry your whole team and do something. In football. It's very much a team effort. If your offensive line is in playing well, you get massacred as a quarterback you can't pass your running backs are hit. So unlike other sports as well, you can't really talk to the referees, if you say so much as boo to them the wrong way, your entire team is penalized. So it was a wonderful lesson in teamwork, in understanding the value of teamwork. And at the same time recognizing that you couldn't -within the rules of the game - there's some leeway, but it's not just about you.
Dan Seguin 03:24
It's clear to say that you have a love for sports, and your commitment to bringing world class sporting events to Ottawa is unsurpassed. I mean, you served as president of the Ottawa Senators, you secure the 1988 Grey Cup game for Ottawa, you delivered a triple A baseball franchise to the city. On top of this, you have served as a governor for Canada Sports Hall of Fame and have been inducted as a builder in the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame. So I have to ask you this. How did these achievements prepare you for your role as a mayor, and for many board positions that you have held through the years, including serving as chair for hydro Ottawa?
Jim Durrell 04:14
I include sport in the entertainment world. So when I look at the four cornerstones of a great city, and I believe Ottawa is a great city, one is education. One is health care. One is your economy. And the fourth one is and - in no particular order- is sports and entertainment. And it's like a chair, and when you've got the four legs of the chair all sitting there then you've got the makings of a great chair. Okay. And the bottom line is that young people today, the world is far bigger than sitting in your office, working all day and I've done that for my entire life but the world- is people need to be entertained. There's a life of inside the office, there is a life that you can enjoy with friends and with family. And sport does that, and you know, as a young man growing up in Montreal, John Beliveau was my hero, the Canadians. And young people have to have these heroes. One of the issues that I always found was when you came to Ottawa, certainly before we brought the NHL here is that all our heroes were from other cities. Well, now, it's not the case. So you can have a CFL hero, you can have an NHL hero. And these things are very important to me, for young men and women that they have models to look up to and grow.
Dan Seguin 05:41
Okay, cool. Now, what were some of the key learnings as a mayor that you were able to transfer to your role at Hydro Ottawa? And what were some of the key differences?
Jim Durrell 05:56
You know, when you're mayor of the capital city of Canada, it's a job that no matter how many years you spend, training, it's a whole different world. And you recognize, I guess, I'll go back and just say, in our personal lives, we choose our friends, we choose what we want to do and when we want to do it. When you're mayor, you see the underbelly of a city, you see the great, you see the challenges, you see the toughness, and it all gets thrown on you on a daily basis. And, and I don't mean that negatively, I mean it from a learning perspective, because you walk out of that job, with a far bigger view and vision of, of how the world really, really works. And so when I came to Hydro, it was it's interesting, because we're very much a private company, but we're even more a public company, and the expectations of the public at large, and our shareholder, which is City Council. Now, I'm very fortunate, having spent all the years that I did at the city, I understand how Council works, and I understand what's important to the individual Councillors and, and the Mayor. And so that has been an asset for me to be able to move through those minefields and call them whatever you want. But the bigger picture is, I never forgot how important our customers were. And our customers were the citizens of Ottawa. And that's our regional debt. That's why we're here.
Dan Seguin 07:48
Jim, you have served on the Hydro Ottawa board since July 2012. What is the biggest change you've seen in Hydro Ottawa since?
Jim Durrell 08:01
That's a good question. And when I became chairman, Hydro, Ottawa was a very highly, highly regulated business. And by a regulated business, we just mailed out the bills, people paid the bills, and we provided energy to their homes. As time has gone on, and we see this all everywhere - fridges, stoves, air conditioners, everything is much, much more efficient. So when you look at the consumption level, per house, and per business, it's dropped substantially. Now, people would argue, and why are my hydro rates going up? Because it's a regulated business, and we're basically controlled by the province. It's really the reality of life. To succeed and grow, then we had to move into other fields. So in 2012 95% of our net income basically, came from the regulated business. Today, it's 67%. And that change, that movement away, has been largely through green energy. And then there are things that we can control in our future. We're the boss, and it allows us, and I look at Chaudiere, you know, the Falls and the energy. We're the largest municipally owned run-of-the-water in Ontario right now. That's the biggest change that we've really gravitated from a regulated business to an exciting, expanding, growing and financially successful business.
Dan Seguin 09:42
Okay, now, I know you love a challenge. So what project or moment during your tener as Board Chair for Hydro Ottawa, do you consider to have been the most challenging?
Jim Durrell 09:54
The biggest thing I would say is, it gets a little complicated, so I'll try and keep it at a high level. We pay every year a dividend to the city, they're our shareholder, they expect the dividend. We always borrowed money- I won't get into financial structures because it's a strange animal created by the province. But we were borrowing money to pay the city a dividend, which just drove us further and further in debt all the time. And our free cash flow, which is what you should pay dividends out was diminished, or non existent by changing to an unregulated business, which is what we're doing now. The unregulated business doesn't pay the dividend, we made that fundamental governance change. So we pay a dividend out of Hydro Ottawa Limited, but all our other Portege power in very all of our other businesses, we keep that cash and those profits. So basically, long term means that we won't be borrowing to pay dividends to the city, that it was the largest fundamental change that we made.
Dan Seguin 11:03
If you could take out your crystal ball and forecast the future. What do you see in Ottawa's energy future?
Jim Durrell 11:11
For all of the talk that goes on about climate change and efficiencies, very little, frankly, is ever done. I mean, solar has just barely scratched the surface here. Wind is, you know, even less so and only in certain areas. So we've got an enormous number of buildings, federal, and municipal, that are older buildings, very poorly constructed for today's modern energy desires. And there has to be a big infrastructure. You can talk all day long about cars and efficiencies there. The hidden energy that's used by all of these older infrastructures is staggering. And nobody talks about it. Like quite frankly, so they spend their time worrying about an electric vehicle. And those are largely highly visible. And it's not that they're not important. The fact of the matter is, there's an enormous other number of areas that have to be changed. And those changes cost money. I look at the amount of money they created first, Atlantis and for this plant and in St. Thomas, as well. And, you know, for Volkswagen. And those are all lovely things and but when I look at money that could really be reinvested properly, and, and have a profound impact in our city. It's fixing that infrastructure. It really is.
Dan Seguin 12:45
What, in your opinion, are some of the greatest challenges that we are facing as a community moving toward a net zero economy?
Jim Durrell 12:56
It's understanding what is net zero. It's now thrown around so casually, and, and everybody jumps right away and focuses on electric vehicles. Well, that's how we're going to do it. And they focus on, we're going to do more wind and solar. The counterbalance is a huge movement out there to cancel natural gas, which is, quite frankly, still highly energy efficient. And you have to, as you gravitate to net zero, it has to be financially affordable for people, it's fine for elites, and it's fine for people who've got lots of money to say we're all going to do this. There's a staggering number of people who live in this city that live hand to mouth, and they need energy, just like the elites need energy. And I use that word and I sounds in such a disparaging way, but they make most of the decisions. So as you move to net zero, you have to do it in an affordable, practical way. City Council passed a motion to cancel natural gas. Do you know what that would mean? Imagine trying to go to your house now. You have no natural gas and you're going to have electricity. Instead of paying a couple of 100 bucks a month, you're going to be paying 1000s What people can't afford that this is just you know, it's lovely, but it's quite frankly, nonsense. At some point in time. It's a nice thing to do. My granddaughter is your very typical 16 year old idealist. She is smart, engaged, a just adore and she's all on climate all the time, Grandpa, you're good in this net. And as I always said to her, Your grandpa totally agrees with you, dear. It's just that you have to move there in a responsible fashion and if you don't, you're going to hurt a tremendous number of people in the process. So the bottom line for me is most of these net zero goals are overly ambitious, there's no real plan to do them, you know whether it's federally provincially, everybody just is talking about it. And the goals are admirable, but it's got to be a goal that is achievable. I have for how many years now I watch the federal government say, you know, we're going to cut our carbon emissions, and every year they go up, what the hell's the use of all this planning, or whatever they call it? And nobody says anything about it.
Dan Seguin 15:29
You're gonna kill me, but I've got a follow up question here. Now, I'll flip that question. What, in your opinion, Jim, are the greatest opportunities that we have as a community in moving toward achieving net zero?
Jim Durrell 15:42
People understanding what Net Zero is. Really understanding and what they have to do themselves to try and get there. It's only a collective buying in, in my estimation, by the public at large. That's really ever going to move this. I'll go back to electric vehicles. There aren't enough charging stations around anywhere to handle it. Snd everybody is "Oh, yeah. And in five years, it'll be only electric vehicles." No, there won't. In 10 years, we'll know there won't. I'm not even sure in 15 years. Because the infrastructure isn't there to support it. So though, there's something that I think can really happen, and happen properly. We're trying to gravitate to all of our vehicles being electric, here at Hydro Ottawa, and we can't get the vehicles. Oh, that's such a lovely goal. But they're not building them. And so this is the reality and if people have to really understand, and it's not the Prime Minister going out with some dribble or gravel and saying these are all the things of the Minister of the Environment, I don't mean to be disrespectful. But the bottom line is, it's all window dressing, there's nothing really honestly substantive there that affects you and me on a daily basis. We pay more than a carbon tax, and I got a check the other day, I mean, what I got the check for, and I'd find it with some reimbursement. Well, that's all window dressing. There's more cars on the road today than there ever was. And all it does is hurt the little guy who can't afford this stuff, you know. So the opportunities are enormous. They're far reaching. But they can only be achieved when people understand it. In its simplest equation, it's I want to lose 30 pounds by next year. Okay, well, that's a wonderful thing. Well, how are you going to do it? Well, these are the things I'm going to do. Okay, so in next month, what will you have lost? Well, if I do all this, I should have lost four pounds and you move it through and there's your 30. I don't see any of that happening, frankly. So there's a real opportunities there. It's moving again, from window dressing to substantive action that's meaningful.
Dan Seguin 18:11
You've had a very storied and accomplished life, Jim. So which is singular achievement in this wonderful life so far, are you most proud of?
Jim Durrell 18:23
Well, without leaving your family out, because I think that's unnatural, I would have to say Receiving the Order of Canada, which is the highest honor a civilian or a citizen can get to be recognized by your country. And I still I have my snowflake on my jacket as we speak here today. That was something going to Rideau Hall and having the Governor General talk about your accomplishments. And it was something that has left a lasting impression. It keeps you enormously humble, and I hope it'll have a great impact on my grandchildren and how they know they can make this country a better place.
Dan Seguin 19:15
What is the one singular thing in your opinion that Ottawa residents most need to know about the work we do at Hydro Ottawa, that they may not already know?
Jim Durrell 19:30
Our reliability, and every every single month, we look at two things. The acronyms are sadie and safety, but it's the number of outages and the frequency of time. We are best in class and have been for a number of years compared to other comparable energy utilities. And we take hydro for granted. If you do just wake up and flick a light and you just go, and you start to open your fridge. And all of these things are just, we don't even give a second thought to them, except when they don't work all of a sudden. And then it's like, well, what the hell is going on here? Why is this off? And hydro is probably- not because I'm Chairman - that it won't be for long. It's the best value for money in all of the bills that we pay. It really is. I mean, when I think of the life style that it provides citizens on a day to day basis for what you pay. It's a great deal.
Dan Seguin 20:43
And finally, Sir, after your retirement as Board Chair in June, where are we next likely to see Jim Durrell? On the golf course at Augusta or celebrating with a Stanley Cup over your shoulders?
Jim Durrell 21:00
Boy, I'll tell you, I thought we were gonna win the cup. Had we had goaltending, we would have won it back in '08. But you know, I've always been active. It's keeps me young mentally. And so I have been very blessed. I have a great group of friends who are equally active. So we play tennis, we play golf. And I'll always care about the community, I mentor a number of young people, I'll continue to do that. I find that very personally fulfilling to pay it forward with young people. So it'll be a lot of that. You know, frankly, with the committees, and all of the boards I've chaired. I'm coming up to 77, the torch has been passed. My wife always says you're gonna go crazy. Oh, no, I won't cook because I've in my life built a tremendous group of friends and associates, most of whom have been very accomplished. And we have discussion groups, and we talk about things. So mentally, I stay challenged. Physically, I stay challenged. And I'm blessed to have a great family and I just love life.
Dan Seguin 22:20
Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Jim Durrell 22:27
Sure.
Dan Seguin 22:28
Okay, sir. What are you reading right now?
Jim Durrell 22:31
I just finished the book. It was the prequel to Pillars of the Earth. So it was very good. I'm also a big John Grissom fan, I have to say. Largely because he does really fascinating stories, but there's always history lessons. He's like Leon Uris used to be, you know, when he was writing that you have a lots of factual history. And around it, they put in the adventure in the story.
Dan Seguin 23:00
The next one is always interesting. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Jim Durrell 23:08
I have one and I call it "The First Lady."
Dan Seguin 23:10
Who is someone that you truly admire?
Jim Durrell 23:14
I admire so many people. I'm trying to move away out of out of family and oh, it's a rapid fire question. So I know so many accomplished people and I admire. I don't know if there's any one person in particular that I would pick out of, you know, other than within family, honestly.
Dan Seguin 23:32
Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Jim Durrell 23:38
The birth of a child.
Dan Seguin 23:40
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Jim Durrell 23:46
It was staying socially active. I'm a very social animal. And so I refused to have the pandemic control my life. I got all my shots when I should get them. I follow the rules, but I stayed fairly socially active.
Dan Seguin 24:06
Now. We've all been guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?
Jim Durrell 24:16
Yeah, I really enjoyed the Bridgerton I enjoyed Succession. I'm into Yellowstone now. But frankly, I I hardly, it's not a sporting event that I'm interested. I watch very little TV. I just find TV today is not very good. And I'm busy. I'll watch a movie every now and again but doesn't control my life.
Dan Seguin 24:42
Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about the energy sector right now?
Jim Durrell 24:48
Not a lot. I hate to say this, because I'm a glass half full guy. When I look at the competency of our Senior Management. I'm going to take that question internally. When I see the men and women that are running Hydro Ottawa today, that makes me excited. It gives me confidence. And it's not BS. Our executive team is a highly competent, a group of men and women who really give a damn. And I think do an extremely good job.
Dan Seguin 25:27
Well, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Jim Durrell 25:39
A pleasure, I enjoyed it.
Dan Seguin 25:41
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests are previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The electrification of vehicles has been top of mind for not only personal use, but also commercial. What does transitioning traditionally fossil fuel-powered engines—like delivery trucks, buses, and taxis—over to electric power look like, and why are cities pushing for this change? In today’s episode, we speak with Jim Pegg, Director of
Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions to discuss the environmental and economic benefits of fleet electrification.
Related links:
Jim Pegg, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17/
Envari, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envari/
Envari website: https://envari.com/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're moving into the fast lane and talking about converting vehicles that are used for commercial purposes, such as delivery trucks, buses, and taxis away from traditional fossil fuel powered engines to electric power. That's right. We're learning about fleet electrification. So start your electric engines, they're so quiet, and fasten your seat belt because we have a great guest to explore more about this topic. So why are cities greening their fleet. Not only does this shift help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but it also packs a punch in the fight against climate change. The transportation sector is one of the largest contributors of GHG emissions accounting for more than 20% of global emissions. The shift towards EVs, electric vehicles in commercial fleets can significantly reduce these emissions. In fact, the City of Ottawa finds to have an entirely zero emission bus fleet by 2036. While fleet electrification is still in its early stages, it has the potential to play a crucial role in helping Canada reach its 2050 netzero targets, especially as demand speeds up. So here's today's big question: In addition to producing fewer life cycle emissions than traditional vehicles, what are the economic benefits of fleet owners and operators? So buckle up friends today, we have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Product and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, here to talk to us about the new Star Fleet. Jim, it's a pleasure to have you on our show again. Now, we've been hearing a lot about electrification of vehicles. It's no secret that the government has set some ambitious goals, like the mandate for all new passenger vehicles and light duty trucks to be zero emissions by 2035. But here's what I'm curious about. Jim, what's the scoop when it comes to fleet? I'm talking about city buses, school buses, delivery vehicles and the likes are organizations who manage fleets making that transition as well. And most importantly, why is this shift in the fleet industry so crucial?
Jim Pegg 03:08
Well, it's a great question. So let's say more and more municipalities and large fleet operators are making the transition to electric vehicles, or at least starting to seriously plan out the change. Municipalities are definitely early adopters transitioning to electric vehicles, starting with their late duty fleets. And of course, the big buses. Buses are a big contributor to GHG emissions. So it has a big impact on their pathway. And that zero plans, converting them to zero emission vehicles. You know, it's just a big part of that whole journey. School buses are an important fleet to talk about as well, we can all agree less diesel fumes for our kids, less fumes they breathe in each day that better. There's actually a few studies out there that talk about health benefits for kids switching to electric buses. So you know, light duty fleets, such as delivery fleets are also starting to make the switch. There's definitely more vehicle options available for light duty fleets right now, making it a great place to start and get comfortable with electric vehicles. And importantly, the charging infrastructure that goes with them. And see, you know, the big driver there right now is GHG reduction. So as a result, you know, government grants are out there to accelerate the transition. So it's a good time for any fleet operator to start looking at the change and planning out when it will make the most sense for them. Not only from an environmental point of view, but also from a cost perspective. The grants aren't going to be around forever. And I think that's a big part of the business cases. Right now. There are their savings as well going to electric vehicles. We all see the price of the pumps going up. And there's also operational savings that can be seen with electric vehicles. Bottom line, I'd say fleets produce a huge amount of GHG emissions, converting them to zero emission vehicles will have a tremendously positive impact with lower total cost of ownership. So it's a win-win at the end of the day, the trick is making sure that EVs will meet your fleet's needs. And that's, that's a big part of the questions out there right now.
Dan Seguin 05:07
Now, with all of the benefits described, it sounds like a no brainer to make the transition to an electric fleet. So what's the catch? What are some of the actual challenges that municipalities and businesses are grappling with when it comes to electrifying their fleet vehicles?
Jim Pegg 05:27
Well, with any big change, there's always challenges. In this case, there are a few but with good planning, they are manageable. I'd say, you know, basic conversations we have typically there's seven or so key things that you need to consider. If I were to go through those, I'll try to be brief. But you know, let's start with cost. So electric vehicles, in most cases, do cost more initially. That is why understanding the total cost of ownership is important. Comparing things like maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle, energy cost, gas or diesel versus electricity. Understanding your current costs, versus what they will look like, is important to help justify that increased initial investment. Next up, I'd say vehicle availability. Is there an EV that is comparable to the vehicles that the fleets are using now that will provide the same or better operational functionality? At the end of the day, fleet operators need a solution that allows them to continue successful operation of their fleet, which takes us to the next point, EV charging with EVs. You need to think about how your charging infrastructures are going to work, work physically, do you have the capacity? What charging strategy will you use understanding when you can charge disrupting your operational needs, the cost of EV infrastructure is an important consideration. You know, many fleet operators will need to increase their electricity capacity from their utility. But this needs to be carefully planned, capacity upgrades evolve assets that last 40, 50 and sometimes 60 years. The last thing you want to do is make an investment only to find out you didn't install enough capacity for future projects like building GHG reduction projects, or that you oversize your new service and wasted money at the start. The good news is there are, you know, well thought out ways to approach these problems, proven steps to take you know, those were things to consider and strategies to allow for a phased approach to converting movies. The truth is I could go on for a while on this specific topic. But let's just say, you know, I'd highly recommend any fleet operator out there to talk to someone that does this every day that has an eye for the full picture, not just the EV power needs. But experience will be helpful on this topic. You will learn about things like preconditioning or vehicles in winter and to increase your range and winter for example. So from there, I'd say let's talk about range anxiety. It's another other piece that people think about, and this is a big one. The last thing fleet operators want us to have is vehicles stranded with no power. This is another good reason that the planning stage is so important. Looking at your fleets usage, dwell times, best case and worst case scenarios like winter operation when range is reduced. Modeling your fleet's usage is an important part of the planning process. Bus fleets are a great example of routes, or overall distance traveled in a day that can be somewhat managed and evaluated at the same time. Working to consider changes in fleet needs also important fleets and their usage patterns change every year. And they will, you know for many years to come. Some very good news is there are more and more chargers being installed around the country. This won't replace the need for fleets to have their own chargers, but it will help with some of the fleets that have more unpredictable usage patterns. You know, at the end of the day, let's face it, you have to get to where the work is. So there's lots of things to think about there. Next up, I'd say there's energy cost and reliability, you know, so switching from gas or diesel to electricity means you'll become dependent on your local utility providing electricity in a reliable way. That's why it's so important to connect with your local utility or have a partner that can do that on your behalf. Other strategies such as, you know, on site battery storage, which is great to support cost management, but it may not be the solution for you know, critical fleet reliability, because you know, batteries have very short duration output to them. So onsite power generation may come into play. Again, many things to consider that all work together and understanding your new electricity bill is what's going to look like and ways to reduce those costs will become an ongoing operational need. Having a good energy advisor will support this need and could save fleet operators a significant amount of money. And let's not forget the various grants and funding streams available. Two more that I'd want to touch on would be - maintenance and tooling. EVs require less overall maintenance. But some different expertise might be required. So training staff in a timely manner on how to maintain your fleet, if you do the maintenance in house is an important transition piece, right. Most importantly, how maintenance can be done safely. Electricity can be seen, but proper steps need to be taken to ensure safety. With any new technology or anything related to electricity, safety has always got to be top of mind. And that's a big piece of operators need to make sure they're thinking about depending on the size of their fleet and, and what's going to have to go in the planning around safety to make sure people go home safely at the end of the day. The last thing I think I've talked about I'd say is driver training. Driving an EV, and knowing how to manage your power usage can have a big impact on the success of your fleet. So knowing how to take advantage of regenerative braking, understanding the impacts, they have features such as heating, cooling of your battery, your battery life itself, hard accelerations versus smooth accelerations, I say simply put some of the simple lessons and training can have a really big impact on your fleet success. There's a lot of thought that goes into planning of fleet conversion to electric. But I say that is why experts you know, and maybe a little self plug here - such as Envari, can be relied upon to take on that transition and make that transition as smooth as possible. No two fleets are the same, but combining a fleet operator's knowledge of what they do with an organization that knows and understands electricity is a great way to start to change.
Dan Seguin 11:39
Jim, given these considerations, are there certain types of vehicles that are more suitable for electrification than others? And if so, why?
Jim Pegg 11:50
Well, I would say they're fleets that have vehicles ready now, for electrification. And I'd say there, there are fleets that are still a bit off in the future. You know, at the same time, converting a full fleet day one isn't always a great idea. Dipping a toe in the water sometimes works best. And parallel to that planning and working with a partner who understands the options out there listens to the fleet operators needs. And I can't stress that enough, you have to really take the time to understand the needs of the fleet and all their unique characteristics and understand how they use their fleets. That's a very important piece that needs to be a very collaborative approach. But you know, fleet operators are experts in how they run their fleet. And having someone that knows the electrical side of things is going to help them through those planning studies and implementations can make a really great recipe. Apart from that battery improvements are being developed, new Evie vehicles are on the way. And it won't be long before there are options out there for every fleet - big and small. But I'd say I'd say the vehicle selection, and that analysis is certainly a step that needs to be taken.
Dan Seguin 12:57
What is the current state of charging infrastructure for fleet vehicles? Is the technology there?
Jim Pegg 13:04
So yeah, so it's a charging technology has come a long way. You know, I can remember as far back as maybe 12 years ago installing so many chargers and and they've certainly come a long way since then. You know, the good news, too, is that they're constantly improving. I would say that the charging technology available today is in a good place to support fleet electrification. Options like parallel charging, AC charging DC charging, sequential charging, actually, for large overhead pantograph charging, which is often used on on bus fleets, there's a new standard that was just released that includes sequential charging for pantograph style chargers. And that's that's a big step in the right direction. And even talking about RFID tags, so I mean, the standards and so on are constantly evolving. And there are lots of different industry partners in that ecosystem, trying to make sure things get standardized because that benefits everyone at the end of the day. Bottom line, there are lots of charging options out there. The trick really is understanding which one will work best for your needs, and how to ensure it's flexible so that you can incorporate different chargers down the road. Being a technology agnostic organization, such as ourself [Envari] has really helped us find the best solution for specific applications. And to be clear, often there's a need for a mix of charger sizes and in a strategy behind you know, DC versus AC charging. Often with fleets, you want to rely a lot more on DC charging rather than relying on the rectification on the vehicle. DC does not have to mean big fast chargers people often think of level three, you know 100 kilowatt, 50 kilowatt chargers with DC chargers, you can get you know 24 kilowatt DC chargers there that are reliable and made by very reputable OEMs, so...
Dan Seguin 14:55
Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?
Jim Pegg 15:11
So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there are different weather patterns and so on. But cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries, and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called preconditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier was a driver training. Simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations.All those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, and if if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C to D to E to F, and G o get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleets needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.
Dan Seguin 16:56
We're all aware that electricity rates can vary based on the number of different factors such as time of day, the season, the customer class, etc. How can fleet operators effectively manage these fluctuations to optimize charging and minimize costs?
Jim Pegg 17:15
So you know, electricity rates are going to be a changing landscape over the coming years as, as I'd say, governments and regulators look for ways to encourage electrification, while at the same time managing infrastructure costs related to distributing power. So, you know, that said, we're also in a time of machine learning and in AI, meaning software is going to play a big part in optimizing charging schedules. There are some great organizations out there that specialize in this exact type of software, you know, pair that with the knowledge of the electricity rate structure in your area, and you can find some very effective ways to manage your electricity costs. The risk is also there, you know, if you do not plan for electricity costs and manage them on an ongoing basis, your cost could quickly increase versus an optimized scenario. You know, for example, in Ontario, there's something called global adjustment. And knowing how to manage your global adjustment costs will have a big impact on your electricity bill. Now, there's a balance. First, and most importantly, a fleet needs to operate as a fleet. So you know, a good partner will work with you to optimize your costs based on your fleet needs, and then work to educate and support fleet operators on what changes they could make to their fleet operations. That would result in some cost savings or significant cost savings. But with the changing landscape, it's something that has to be an ongoing effort for sure.
Dan Seguin 18:45
Okay, Jim, how do government policies and regulations impact the electrification of fleets?
Jim Pegg 18:53
Yeah, well, I guess I'd say there's a few ways one of the big ones is government noting that all vehicles sold as of a certain date and time will need to be zero emission vehicles, which means fleets will have to look at vehicles other than the gas and diesel options that they use now when as their fleets come to end of life. So as they're looking to replace their fleets, they're gonna have to think about what vehicles are actually going to be sold and available as they get to those different points in time. You know, the cost of electricity and distribution rates and rate design will have an impact on the total cost of ownership as we just talked about for EV fleets. You know, in other areas such as manufacturing, you know, different Import/Export policies, trade agreements with other countries, mining policies, all those different things can impact the production of EV vehicles. And, you know, right to its core, the availability of vehicles, which is obviously a big need.
Dan Seguin 19:50
Okay, sir, how about funding? Are there any incentive programs out there and how can they help those who might be considering like implication
Jim Pegg 20:01
There is funding out there right now for things such as charging infrastructure, and in some cases to support the cost delta between traditional vehicles and EVs. A couple of examples, I'd say we have the Zero Emission Transit Fund, which supports municipal bus fleet electrification, as well as school bus electrification. There's actually two parts to that one in particular, I believe it's up to 80% of the planning costs covered. And for your actual capital investments, I believe it's up to 50%, with some fairly high caps there. So there's quite a bit of funding available there. Another example would be the Canadian Infrastructure Bank is offering low interest loans to help with that initial upfront investment that's required. And we're seeing other various grant programs. There is NRCan, there's ZEVIP program which has had various phases to it as well to help support electric charging. So I mean, there's different programs coming out. And that is also a bit of an ongoing thing that we have to watch constantly and, and be ready for. And it can be a bit of a process to go through some of the applications. But once you understand the process, it becomes much simpler. And I mean, having someone to work with to do that with you, you can have a lot of success there. Each program has its own rules and requirements to apply. But I can say from firsthand experience, the funding is there. It is accessible, we've had great success, getting many of our customers some, some really great funding.
Dan Seguin 21:36
Okay, now, time to take out your crystal ball, Jim. What's the future of fleet electrification, and how do you see it evolving in the coming years?
Jim Pegg 21:49
Yeah, I mean, this is one that the engineering team and everyone loves to chat about while having the morning coffee. I think we'll see more and more advancement in battery technology. And I touched on that a bit earlier, and the charging technology along with that, and more creative ways to leverage the stored energy of multiple vehicles connected at multiple locations. I really think there's going to be some sort of an overlay where we're really able to leverage all of these different, essentially battery packs, all over the place. And then on top of that, I think as we touched on earlier, more and more vehicle options and innovation and vehicles. And in some cases, people may have to think about reframing how they use their vehicles. And hopefully, it's always for the positive, right? At the end of the day, fleet operators need to be able to run their businesses, and then continue moving forward in a profitable way. So the technology needs to be there to support that, ultimately, to help with that transition.
Dan Seguin 22:51
Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Jim, are you ready?
Jim Pegg 23:00
Let's go for it.
Dan Seguin 23:01
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Jim Pegg 23:04
Spare by Prince Harry.
Dan Seguin 23:06
Jim, what would you name your boat? If you had one?
Jim Pegg 23:11
The Tin Can.
Dan Seguin 23:13
Now, who is someone that you admire?
Jim Pegg 23:17
To give a shout out here to my wife. She's an incredible spouse. She's a mother. She's a business owner, and she does it all! She does it very well.
Dan Seguin 23:26
That's cool. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Jim Pegg 23:34
Oh, I think there's real magic that happens out there every day. But I'm going to fall right into the birth of my son, I think will always be at the top of my list. Seeing that happen. That's magic.
Dan Seguin 23:48
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Jim Pegg 23:54
So on a personal level, I think it's probably something a lot of people can relate to that have young kids, I think it was a tough couple of years and keeping my son on track with, you know, sort of the progression of education, missing a couple of really crucial years in there was it was difficult, but happy to say we've got some awesome teachers in the school system here and he's just getting back on track. And I think that though it was a big challenge.
Dan Seguin 24:26
Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Jim Pegg 24:35
Oh, anything Star Wars, anything Star Wars at all! I watch the whole series, you know, the Mandalorian? All of it. I love it all!
Dan Seguin 24:45
Lastly, Jim, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Jim Pegg 24:50
Yeah, this is where I would geek out a little bit and say "what's not exciting?" Right now, you know, we're going through some major transitions. I'd say with the technology that we have, and on all the changes happening, there's collaboration like never before, really. Seeing new technology coming out constantly. It's an exciting time, I'd say to be an engineer, and to work with a team of engineers. And I have to say, I have the pleasure of working with the greatest group of engineers there is. Everyone from building mechanical lighting, electrical engineers, all the drive and passion for their work like no other group I've seen. I think it's just an exciting time.
Dan Seguin 25:28
Jim, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or the organization, how can they connect?
Jim Pegg 25:42
Yeah, well, thank you for having me, I'd say check out our website: envari.com. And just reach out through there and we're happy to reach out and have conversations. Always happy to discuss this topic and many more.
Dan Seguin 25:57
Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Jim Pegg 26:03
Absolutely. Always a pleasure.
Dan Seguin 26:05
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkingenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Canada’s electric vehicle industry sparks interest, as the government aims at selling only zero-emission vehicles by 2035. It’s a chance to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve air quality, while also developing a sustainable electricity and transportation system. Canada has invested in EV manufacturing, infrastructure and batteries. But is it enough? Emma Jarratt, award-winning investigative journalist and the Executive Editor at Electric Autonomy Canada, weighs in on episode 112 of thinkenergy.
Related links
Emma Jarratt, Website: https://emmajarratt.wordpress.com/
Emma Jarratt, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/
Emma Jarratt, Twitter: https://twitter.com/Em_CRJ
Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/
Project Arrow: https://projectarrow.ca/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Canada is on the brink of a transportation revolution, as it transitions to electric. With the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving air quality, the Canadian government has set a target of selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035. This transition presents a number of challenges and opportunities. But there's one thing for certain it's an exciting time for Canada's electric vehicle industry. The demand for electric vehicles is growing exponentially in Canada, as more people are embracing the technology to reduce their carbon footprint and improve air quality. This has created a unique opportunity for automakers and entrepreneurs to bring new and innovative electric vehicle models and technology to market. Strides were made in 2022, which saw Canada's public charging installations grow by a whopping 30%. The government has committed to investing in public charging infrastructure, and private companies are also stepping up to meet the demand. The shift to electric mobility will no doubt transform Canada's energy sector, which will require a significant increase in electricity demand, and bring with it more renewable energy and innovation. Electric vehicles present an opportunity for Canada to develop a more resilient and sustainable electricity and transportation system, not to mention the untold economic benefits. So here's today's big question: There's been a lot of announcements in the past year about investments Canada is making in EV manufacturing, infrastructure, and critical minerals needed for batteries. Is it enough to make Canada a superpower in this space and meet its 2035 target? Joining us today is Emma Jarrett, an award winning investigative journalist with a focus on green energy, the electric transportation sector and politics. She worked for some of Canada's largest news outlets, including CTV, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail. Currently, she's the executive director of Electric Autonomy Canada, Emma, so great to have you join us today. Emma, how did you first become interested in electric vehicles and clean energy? And what led you to your current role as the executive editor of electric autonomy Canada?
Emma Jarrett 03:07
So, fun fact, I know very little about cars. If you ask me what the torque or the HP or like the drag on something is, I will give you a blank stare because I just don't know. It's never been a huge interest for me. But what I do care about and what my professional and personal background is is health, environment, resources, politics, the economy.You know, I have a little bit of power generation knowledge. So all to say that EV adoption touches all of that; it actually has very little to do with cars. So I fell into this job. Actually, I was freelancing, and I was approached to freelance for electric autonomy when it first started up, and it was a really nice partnership, and it became a full time gig.
Dan Seguin 04:01
Cool. Can you give us a bit of background on Electric Autonomy, Canada?
Emma Jarrett 04:07
Sure. So the company was founded in 2019, we actually just turned four. Our founder, Nino Dakara, started the news platform because he saw that Canada was just falling behind on EV adoption compared to other countries. You know, at that point, Norway would have been, you know, mid hockey stick up to very, very high levels of adoption, and Canada just wasn't doing much. And so he identified this issue and pinpointed that one of the big bottlenecks to adoption is lack of education. There was just this dearth of information for Canada and Canadian businesses making these decisions. So that was where Electric Autonomy came. And we exist to fill that knowledge gap.
Dan Seguin 04:49
Now, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing the electric vehicle industry in Canada today? And how do you see these challenges being addressed in the coming years?
Emma Jarrett 05:02
So the EV industry always exists I think with this, like an existential crisis happening, we're building, well I'm not part of it, but the industry is building itself from the ground up almost. And making a combustion vehicle is very different from making an electric vehicle. So yes, there is an existing auto sector in Canada with lots of tier one parts and manufacturers. But essentially, you're rebuilding something in the best case scenario, and most of the time, you're just building from the ground up, particularly when it comes to batteries and building that supply chain. So, that's just an ongoing challenge, you know, imagine building a house and then multiply that by like 2 billion. And that's what, you know, the scale of what this is. So the daily acute challenge, though, I think, at this moment is supply of vehicles, they're just not enough to match the demand and the interest from the public. And that's proving incredibly frustrating for everybody from manufacturers who, you know, know that they're not providing to scale what people are looking for, and to customers on the flip side who've been waiting very long times, in some cases to get their vehicles to address them. I mean, these are growing pains, my hope is that they will work out as things become more established as more pieces of the supply chain fall into place and come up and running. But no, I mean, there are going to be some really big troubleshooting events that have to happen before everyone feels like okay, we're, we're ticking along here.
Dan Seguin 06:31
How has the COVID 19 pandemic impacted the electric vehicle market in Canada? And what changes do you anticipate in the near future?
Emma Jarrett 06:40
I hate to say supply chains because everyone has been blaming supply chains. But it was a huge blow to the auto industry in general. I mean, the early days of the pandemic, like factories were shut down for weeks and months, no one was producing anything, whether it ran on a battery, or a combustion engine. That was a massive problem for the industry. So you know, that just had to be weather really, COVID. And obviously, the government's had to step in with subsidies to keep the industries as they were, you know, variously impacted afloat, man. And there was a psychological side too, for people when you think the world is ending, and that you don't know what's going to happen next. And you're so worried about everybody getting sick, and you can't go anywhere and see anybody! Do you care about buying a car? Probably not. So, you know, we know from the numbers that, you know, purchases of vehicles went down a lot during COVID, which I think is a pretty understandable and natural reaction to the bigger world events that we're playing out. Now, the retail industrial complex is rebounding. And perhaps what we will see in the near future is people taking stock of their ability to have an impact on their health and the health of their neighbors and those around them. I don't think any of us want to live or another COVID. Not to say that vehicles are in any way responsible or impactful on COVID. But it does speak to you know, we want to live in a healthy, sustainable clean planet, and EVs are this a bad pun. But they're a vehicle to do that. They're one piece of the puzzle to help achieve a way of living that is just better for everybody.
Dan Seguin 08:20
There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe, why?
Emma Jarrett 08:36
Sure. So I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting. For me, I learned a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment in our history. We're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So it's great that we have factories that make batteries, but it would be better if they were all powered by non emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals brought out of the ground were all electric That, to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.
Dan Seguin 10:06
Okay, Emma, the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?
Emma Jarrett 10:26
Sure. So the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill. And you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will. That for the EV industry and clean tech, you know, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter of what the US is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonisation of Canada's grids. $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage, and better load prediction and understanding, I think that's really important.
Dan Seguin 11:59
Now, your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?
Emma Jarrett 12:13
We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise, the steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big ship to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet, I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens. Who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me then what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken. And I am always of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.
Dan Seguin 13:03
Okay. How do you think Canada's clean energy and climate policies are impacting the development and adoption of electric vehicles? And what changes would you like to see in the policy landscape?
Emma Jarrett 13:17
I think the government is sending a very clear signal, whether they're saying it outright, or they're using funding and grants and incentives that they want to de-risk EV adoption and venture into the EV landscape, whether that comes in the form of manufacturing or charging. So I think that that's quite a powerful signal to the private commercial world, everyone is still nervous about how this will go. It's not small amounts of money that companies are talking about here, if it goes sideways, it could sink them. So I think that helps to have that sense of, you know, the government saying, we're not going to abandon you, we're going to try to help where we can, but that's sort of like ledger books and dollars and cents, people are much trickier. Openness to buying an Eevee is very subjective. And you know, times that by 38 million. like every Canadian will have their own reason for buying or not buying an EV. Investments in rebates and better EV education and charging infrastructure and just making it more visible and, and more widely available is really helpful. And that is what is being done, but there's still people who want to switch. So how do you reach them? I think that there are probably much smarter people than me, you know, consumer insights and into you know, strategies there. But, you know, we may be in a position in the future where we've seen a lot of carrots being given as of late very few sticks. And there might be policies that make it really unappealing and de incentivize people to own a combustion vehicle,it might come down to that, I don't know.
Dan Seguin 14:59
Okay, Emma, follow up question here. What are other countries doing right that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?
Emma Jarrett 15:09
Where we see the highest number of EVs being bought and adoption rates that are, you know, nearly at 100%: your Norway's, your Iceland's and Sweden's of the world. Those countries that they have in common, they're smaller than Canada, like 100%, they're way smaller. It is a different and perhaps easier task to switch a more compact size country over to EVs sooner. However, they also just have a different societal perspective than we have, like a different social conscience. Citizens of those countries tend to embrace moving in sync together for the greater good, rather than, you know, the haves doing really, really well. And the have-nots being left behind, which is what we tend and see more towards here. I think it's an age-old question. Every politician, every grassroots activist has wondered and asked themselves, you know, the question of how do we get everyone to buy into this thing that we want them to do? There is no easy answer. But I think that we've seen in history, countries that band together to do something because they just believe it's the right thing. And it will net benefit as most people tend to do better. And at the end of the day, if we don't do anything, or we don't do enough, everyone in Canada will suffer because of climate change. We already know that there are pockets of the country that are acutely suffering more than others right now. But at the end of the day, it will be a universal problem for everybody.
Dan Seguin 16:35
Now, what do you believe are the most important factors driving the transition to electric mobility in Canada?
Emma Jarrett 16:44
We always come back to a few pillars, which is, you know, education is right up there just understanding demystifying this technology. I mean, these are not like spaced hovercraft, that you need a special license to learn how to drive, they're just a car. So education is really key. Just getting people familiar with the technology, access to the vehicles to test drive is really important. Because this is technology on wheels, it's cars now or computers on wheels. So think of one of the most successful tech brands in the world, Apple, what does Apple do really well? They have stores everywhere, and you get to go in and there are tables and tables of all of their stuff. And you can hold it and feel it and play with it. And that's what needs to happen with vehicles, particularly EVs. They're new, and people are interested, but they need to test it out first, and we've seen rebates and then purchase incentives be effective as well. These vehicles are more expensive right now everyone hopes and is anticipating those costs will come down. But until they do that will make it more likely that you'll get more people into them. If you can help with the costs. Maybe not everybody needs a rate rebate, but certainly some people do.
Dan Seguin 17:54
What role do you see Canadian businesses and entrepreneurs playing in the development of electric vehicle technologies and infrastructure? And what opportunities do you see for Canadian companies in this space?
Emma Jarrett 18:11
Since I started reporting for electric autonomy, I've had the most wonderful education and what it is that's actually made in Canada. And coming into this four years ago, I had no idea that we have the auto sector that we do outside of, you know, Windsor, basically. We make cars in Windsor, but the parts and the tier one suppliers, and the tiny little bits of the vehicle that nobody ever cares about, or knows about unless they break, so many of them are made here. And then we have the IP side, which has just flourished in the last few years with excellent talent coming, you know, out of the universities or into Canada from around the world. And the ecosystem is incredibly robust. We have an example of what entirely made in Canada talent can do with the project arrow. I don't know if you're familiar with that. But the APMA the Auto Parts and Manufacturers Association spent, I think it was three years - Yeah, three years, building from the ground up, a concept vehicle that is entirely made in Canada IP. Every part, every piece of technology, every self driving - driver assist feature on it came from Canadian talent. They had hundreds and hundreds of bids from across the country for companies to participate in the car and it's an incredible body of work. And it's such a good example of what is possible coming out of Canada.
Dan Seguin 19:46
Very cool. Okay. Now, what advice do you have for individuals who are interested in transitioning to electric vehicles but are still hesitant or unsure about the technology?
Emma Jarrett 20:00
Well, I would say that there are a couple of things you can do. First is, do you know anybody with an EV? Well enough to ask them, Hey, can you take me for a drive in it or even better? Let me go around the block a few times. If you don't have anybody in your life who owns an EV then there are every society chapters all across the country, you should look one up in your community or close by our community. And they are incredibly generous. It's just a collection of people who are really passionate about EV education and one of their favorite things to do is to get people into EVs. So it's not an over asked to see if you can have a drive ins in someone's car, educate yourself on how the EV works to demystify, you know, the power train, understand the the battery that is in the vehicle is really just an extra extra large version of what's already in your phone or your computer. It's just done on a bigger scale. So I think, oh, and as well charging, definitely educate yourself on the charging of your vehicle, because that's, you know, routinely something that is a stumbling block for potential buyers is "How am I going to charge this thing." If you're, if you don't live in a detached home where you have, you know, room on your panel to put in a Level 2 charger, you're gonna have to do a bit of homework to understand how you'll navigate that, and there are lots of options and lots of resources available.
Dan Seguin 21:29
Okay Emma, how do we make electric mobility and electrification equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy in?
Emma Jarrett 21:42
Well, I don't know what's in it for all Canadians to buy in, in terms of what will sway someone to buy an EV or not, what is a convincing argument for me might not be for my neighbor. But to make it equitable, I hope that charging providers are really sensitive to and mindful of where they're rolling out charging, and not just concentrating it in specific pockets where adoption is really high. But instead making sure that there's an even spread so that everyone feels like they have access to the infrastructure, they need to power their vehicles, cost of the vehicles in and of themselves is always a recurring concern. I don't know what else there is to do at this point, with certainly a federal rebate in place available to all Canadians and most provinces and territories offering some form of a rebate to add on top of the federal one, rather than waiting for the cost to come down. And from conversations with manufacturers, that's something that everyone is quite mindful of. Carmakers want to sell cars, and the better the price, the more cars they'll sell. So it's not something they're oblivious to. It's just waiting for the supply chain to solidify so that it's not as costly to make the battery which remains the most expensive part of the vehicle. We do.
Dan Seguin 22:57
Okay, another follow up question for you. I'm looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach. Are you hopeful?
Emma Jarrett 23:05
I'm an impatient person by nature. So I would, I would always like to see it go faster. But I am hopeful that we are taking the right steps as a country. And I just hope that there are more to come that this isn't, you know, okay, we've done what we can and let the chips fall where they may, I hope that we continue to see just a rolling evolution as the temperature keeps being taken of what people need to make them comfortable switching over to a zero emission vehicle. So I am cautiously optimistic, I would say.
Dan Seguin 23:42
Okay, a personal question, Emma, if you don't mind. As an award winning journalist, given all of the stories, you've covered people you've met, and where you've been, what has been your most memorable and why?
Emma Jarrett 23:59
So in 20, what year would have been 2014, the war in Syria was really picking up steam. And I was already in Norway for a reporting stint. I was there for a few months. And at the end of it, I hopped on a flight and went to Turkey, traveled to the Turkish border of Syria, and stayed there for a week covering aspects of the conflict that I could from there. And I spoke with, you know, tons of, mostly children of varying ages, who had been evacuated from Syria to receive medical treatment in this small town called Rohanley. And that was a very formative experience for me. That was the closest I've ever been to a war, certainly very, very distressing to see people and kids lying in beds who are not much younger than me. I was, I was in my early 20s At the time, and also very inspiring to see that, you know, the doctors and the, you know, people who people who had never been in medicine before coming up with these incredible ideas to help these people who have been wounded, I ended up at a prosthetics clinic, a group of I mean, they were teenagers, they they had liked robotics when they were in school. And some of them might have had like one or two years of engineering behind them at university before the conflict broke out. And they started making prosthetics at this clinic for everybody who had lost limbs. And it was really incredible to see on many different levels, and it's always stayed with me.
Dan Seguin 25:46
Thank you for sharing this. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.
Emma Jarrett 25:56
Ready!
Dan Seguin 25:57
What are you reading right now Emma?
Emma Jarrett 25:59
I'm just about to start a new book by Tamara Cherry who is a journalist on trauma informed reporting. So it's telling the story in a way that's not re victimizing the people you're interviewing. Very excited about, I've heard great things.
Dan Seguin 26:15
Okay, um, what would you name your boa if you had one?
Emma Jarrett 26:19
I do not have a boat. I tend to get quite seasick. So I think I would have to go with like, the Hurley Girly or Hold the Waves, like something a bit tongue and cheek, but definitely I would much prefer that the boat either be on dry land, or very firmly tied to the dock.
Dan Seguin 26:37
Who is someone you admire?
Emma Jarrett 26:41
I don't have any public figures that jumped to mind. But I'm going to be very trite and say that I have so many wonderful people in my life that just bring me so much joy and challenge me and who have done amazing things in their own lives. And I just admire my friends, my family, my colleagues, that I'm just incredibly lucky that way.
Dan Seguin 27:04
Nice. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Emma Jarrett 27:10
Probably my pregnancies.
Dan Seguin 27:12
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Emma Jarrett 27:18
I was very lucky during the pandemic. I don't think a lot of people can say that they rode it out as well as I did in terms of, you know, getting to keep going with my everyday life. I've worked from home anyway, so it didn't hit me in the same way that it hit other people. But I think it was hard just being out and about and seeing the joylessness and the fear on everybody's faces all the time. You know, everyone is in masks, of course, and everyone's eyes had that same look of just really, really distressed - that was hard.
Dan Seguin 27:52
Okay, We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Emma Jarrett 28:00
I will usually always have Downton Abbey on in the background. I'm just a sucker for slow moving British TV with lots of horseback riding.
Dan Seguin 28:09
Now, lastly, what is exciting you Emma about your industry right now?
Emma Jarrett 28:16
It's exciting to watch history unfold in real time. I have this sense that, you know, in 20 years, we're all going to look back on this and think wow, that was a really cool thing to live through. And I'm fortunate because my job allows me basically to keep a diary - terrible diaries to my personal life but through reporting you know, I have story after story of my own and my colleagues just chronicling this massive societal transition, and I think it's going to be the neatest Time Capsule down the road.
Dan Seguin 28:49
Well, Emma this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?
Emma Jarrett 29:03
I am on most social medias that happened before 2020. I do not understand Tik Tok. So please don't look for me there. But Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Electric Autonomy website. I'm easy to reach on all those platforms.
Dan Seguin 29:22
Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Emma Jarrett 29:28
It did. Thank you.
Dan Seguin 29:30
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
We’re on the road to net zero by 2050, driven by multiple levels of government. But what about sustainable development of our natural resources, including clean energy? Is it possible to meet net-zero goals and secure a prosperous future? Natural Resources Canada thinks so, with initiatives to help provinces and territories reduce greenhouse gas emissions and support their economic priorities. Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada, joins thinkenergy episode 111 to share how.
Related links
Debbie Scharf, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiescharf/
Natural Resources Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/
Regional Energy and Resource Tables: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/climate-change/regional-energy-and-resource-tables/24356
Sustainable Jobs Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/jobs/training/initiatives/sustainable-jobs/plan.html
2030 Emissions Reduction Plan: https://www.canada.ca/en/services/environment/weather/climatechange/climate-plan/climate-plan-overview/emissions-reduction-2030.html
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Transcipt:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is the think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In Canada, the energy sector is going through a major transition. As a nation, Canada has set ambitious targets to reach net zero emissions by 2050, and has made a commitment to prioritize the environment and climate action. Multiple levels of government and government agencies play an integral role in Canada's Net Zero initiative. So who is developing policies and programs to promote the sustainable development of Canada's natural resources, including clean energy? Natural Resources Canada is at the forefront of Canada's movement, working on initiatives that empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities while reducing greenhouse gas emissions through regional priorities and projects that align with Canada's netzero goals. Recently, the Royal Bank of Canada stated that the electricity sector is netzero already, but notes that it will require doubling, maybe even tripling the electricity output that currently exists today. This requires not only addressing the technical and economic challenges of transitioning to clean energy, but also creating social and cultural change. So here is today's big question. Can Canada successfully achieve its netzero goals, while creating a sustainable and prosperous future for all Canadians? Joining me today is Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister at Natural Resources Canada. In her role, Debbie is responsible for spearheading one of the Government of Canada's signature Energy Initiative, the transformation of regional energy systems through the regional energy and resources tables. She also oversees the sector's electricity resources branch, and the Energy Policy and International branch, both of which are integral to the Government of Canada central energy initiatives to realize a netzero future. Debbie, so great to have you join us today. Perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Natural Resources Canada, better known as NRCan, and its objectives.
Debbie Scharf 02:54
Yeah. So Dan, thanks so much for inviting me here today, it's really great to talk a little bit about some of these issues with yourself and for your listeners. So NRCan is one of many federal departments. But our role specifically, is to work to improve the life of Canadians by ensuring our natural resources are developed sustainably, hence the name of our department. And we do this in ways for example, supporting climate change mitigation and advancing the net to zero transition using our natural resources to provide a source of jobs prosperity and opportunity for Canadians, of course, preserving our environment and those natural resources and respecting and engaging with indigenous peoples towards economic reconciliation. And so that really sums up very much the heart of what NRCan is about.
Dan Seguin 03:38
How is Natural Resources Canada integral to Canada's initiative to achieve a netzero future?
Debbie Scharf 03:46
Yeah, well, I'd say NRCan is pretty integral because 80% plus of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions comes from producing and using energy, and NRCan Canada's the department responsible for energy, at least federally. And so we play a very, very important role in the journey to get to net zero. And we try to use all of the tools that we have available as a department, which includes things like policies and regulations, funding programs, science partnerships, to help shape and accelerate that transition. And you know what, we're not just focused on emissions, we often talk about emissions when we talk about the net zero transition. But we also think a lot at NRCan, about how to create new economic opportunities that will create jobs for Canadians, good paying sustainable jobs, and to position Canadian businesses to be the supplier of choice for energy globally, and provide those energy services and security to the rest of the world. I just will say one thing and I said the point federally is because energy is a shared jurisdiction in this country, and that is pretty important. So as a department, part of an integral role of what we do is working collaboratively with our provincial and territorial counterparts and indigenous partners to do the work that we do and of course with a variety of stakeholders across the country.
Dan Seguin 04:58
Debbie now With respect to the environment and climate action, what is Canada already doing right?
Debbie Scharf 05:07
Well, I would say the one thing that is worth noting as a starting point is that over the past few decades, we've seen a decoupling of economic growth and GHG emissions. And I think that really speaks to the fact that there are things that are going right when it comes to energy and climate. There have been a number of technology improvements that we've seen regulations that have been implemented. And of course, although not under the purview of NRCan, a pollution carbon charge or tax that has been applied across the country, all of which have helped to tackle emissions and to help get them on a different trajectory. And so I do think that we're on the right track, I do, if you don't mind, highlight three kinds of sets of things that we're doing when we talk about, are we doing things right, and the first one is putting in place a plan. Now, the Government of Canada put in place a series of climate plans, but most recently, the emissions reductions plan in 2022. Because if you don't have a roadmap, to know where you want to go, and how you're going to get there, how are you going to know if you're achieving success, and you're doing the right things? So I think putting in place a really solid plan that gives us that roadmap has been something we're doing right. The other important thing is getting the right investment? How do you attract investment into the sorts of industries and technologies that we need to see Canada prosper as we move to net zero. And the most recent federal budget with a number of tax credits, which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our chat, is an area where we're sort of moving the bar around Investment Attraction and collaboration. As I said, before shared jurisdiction, we are not doing anything in this country, when it comes to climate and energy and less we are working in partnership with other jurisdictions and with a broad range of stakeholders, and of course, our indigenous partners.
Dan Seguin 06:41
Okay, now, you've taken a new and prominent role as the Assistant Deputy Minister for NRCan, can you tell us a bit more about your role?
Debbie Scharf 06:52
Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be in this role at NRCan and enjoying it very much. So in my particular role, I'm focused on transforming Canada's energy system, through policies, programs and regulatory solutions to try and get to that net zero economy, but very critically, while ensuring affordability, reliability, and security of energy. So it's a bit of a trifecta set of outcomes that we're driving towards, and how you bring all of that together is really at the heart of what my role is, and NRCan and I oversee a large variety of files. But just to highlight a few that may be interesting. First, I'm responsible for the electricity sector and nuclear fuel cycle issues. Within the federal family, we have our resource, regional energy and resource tables, which are new collaborative partnerships with provinces and territories. And I'm happy to talk a bit about that to advance economic opportunities. Of course, the recently launched sustainable jobs plan, very connected to how we transform our industries and create those jobs. And so we provide leadership around that we do some international work on equity, diversity and inclusion, because we want to build the right energy sector of the future. And we do things like just providing that core energy data to Canadians, like our energy Factbooks. So people can understand the energy sector in Canada. So those are all things that I do in my sector, amongst other things.
Dan Seguin 08:09
Great segue here. Okay. So you're spearheading the regional energy and resources table? What is their purpose specifically?
Debbie Scharf 08:18
So that's a great question. So the regional tables are a really different approach that the federal government is taking, and they're very focused on how do you drive economic benefit and economic prosperity in the context of transitioning to net zero? And when it comes to a country like Canada? And when it comes to energy? Where you live matters. A Quebecer is not facing the same type of issues as someone in Alberta, or British Columbia, or Prince Edward Island. And so energy is a very regional issue, the challenges that each region of the country will face in the transition is different. And frankly, the economic opportunities in each region of the country are also going to look a little bit different. And so the regional tables are really about how do we accelerate those economic opportunities on a jurisdiction or regional basis, understanding that these issues are going to be felt differently depending on where you live. And if I can quote Minister Wilkinson, just for one moment, although he's not subject to this podcast, it is, it is a very key comment. He talks about the need to be strategic, ambitious, and collaborative. And those are really the words that I would use to describe what underpins what we're trying to achieve with regional tables.
Dan Seguin 09:26
Can you help me better understand how the regional tables will empower provinces and territories to decide their economic priorities?
Debbie Scharf 09:36
Yeah, that's a great question. So the starting point for the regional tables, regardless of what jurisdiction we're talking to you, is to decide on a small number of priority areas where we think that as government's working with indigenous partners and stakeholders, we can accelerate and make demonstrable progress in the near term and into the future. So we can't do everything under the sun, but we find three or four priority sectors are priority areas where the province or the territory would like to partner with the federal government to accelerate progress. So that is really the starting point. And then the goal is as governments, how can we align our resources, our timelines, or decision making our regulatory processes to accelerate the development of those priority areas, i.e. those industries. And as governments, we have a tremendous ability to do that better, to be able to make that kind of progress. And so very tangibly, it's really about coming together and having discussions around, okay, if I'm British Columbia, and I want to build a hydrogen economy, what stands in the way of doing that? What would be our objectives around what we'd like to see happen in British Columbia? And what are the sorts of tangible actions we can take together to be able to accelerate that progress. And that is really step one, there's, there's more steps to the regional table, that there's very, that is very much step one, to be able to move these forward. And that's very much where we're focusing our efforts right now.
Dan Seguin 10:54
Okay, let's get just a bit in the weeds here. Debbie, can you tell our listeners more about who the participants are at the regional tables, besides the federal, provincial and territorial governments?
Debbie Scharf 11:06
Yeah. And so, you know, the theme of collaboration, I think, will be a thread throughout many of my answers, but collaboration isn't very there. And partnership, frankly, is a very important part of the regional tables. So, you know, you've heard me express that the starting point is this relationship between governments. The other incredibly important feature to the regional tables is a partnership with indigenous communities and partners in the jurisdiction. And you know, just like energy has a very different landscape across the country, the indigenous landscape is also very different depending on what part of the country you live in. And so we're designing very specific ways of partnering with indigenous organizations and communities in each province. So that, ultimately, we hope that we can have more of a trilateral type of discussion around how to accelerate these priorities. So that's another important feature of Who are these partners at the table. The other piece is, there's a number of stakeholder groups out there that have expertise, whether it be industry partnerships with Union and labor groups who are interested in understanding how we're going to build the jobs of the future, think tanks that are really considering so many long term challenges in this space. So universities, there's a large range of stakeholders that want to be able to participate in this process. And we're finding ways to do that as well. Because at the end of the day, we want to understand how to accelerate change. And we need to have all those perspectives brought to bear. And so we're designing that type of input and partnership into the process as well.
Dan Seguin 12:27
Okay, moving on here. Maybe you can tell us how federal funding from existing sources can be directed towards top regional priorities and projects?
Debbie Scharf 12:38
Yeah, so this is a really important piece. Because if the idea is that through these discussions you've identified, what are your priorities, what are your objectives? And therefore, what are the types of projects that we need to advance in those jurisdictions, you could start to develop a pretty clear priority list around where you want to catalyze investment, and how public and private sector dollars can be brought to bear. And that is exactly sort of when we talk about how do we align our programming, it's really about these tables, being able to provide a sense of what are those priorities that we need to invest in? And then how can we bring the programs and the federal family to bear to help facilitate those program investments. And there are a number of programs that we have that exists within the federal government, whether it be the Strategic Innovation Fund Netzero Accelerator, the soon to be brought to fruition Canada Growth Fund, the infrastructure Bank, the Critical Mineral Strategy that had quite a bit of funding attached to it. So these are all areas that we're looking at to say, how do we match, you know, where public funding can support priority investments and the tables are servicing where those priorities are?
Dan Seguin 13:41
Debbie, can you expand on how the approach to net zero emissions and in nature, a positive future will be different across the country?
Debbie Scharf 13:51
So it's really interesting, I have another thread that you'll hear throughout the discussion around regional tables as the no one size fits all approach, or where you live matters type of idea. And so what we're finding is that there's a lot of consistency in the priorities that different jurisdictions across the country are interested in, in pursuing, but they look very different depending on where you live, I'll give you a very obvious example, if you want to talk about carbon capture and storage and you live in Alberta. That's a very different conversation than if you're in Newfoundland, and you have an industry, like an oil and gas industry that exists offshore, the type of conversation you're going to have will be very different in terms of what types of actions you have to take to move that type of technology solution forward. And the same thing could be said around, you know, fuel sources like hydrogen, if you live in Alberta, or Saskatchewan, you may produce hydrogen a bit differently than if you were in Quebec, or in Manitoba. And so it's very interesting to see how common priorities can find their expression very different depending on where you live.
Dan Seguin 14:54
In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Since in nature, and where do you see the biggest opportunities in technology?
Debbie Scharf 15:05
Yeah. Um, so I would be remiss if I didn't talk about carbon capture, and storage or carbon capture utilization and storage, CCS or CCUS. As a great example, for Canada, we have an enormous amount of natural advantages in space. And it is going to be a very important technology for Canada to be able to reduce emissions and think about those hard to abate sectors not only oil and gas, but concrete, steel, other types of industrial activities that need to capture emissions. And in Canada, we have wonderful geology, and we wonder about sort of natural strengths. And we have an amazing industry and investments have been made in this technology in years past, that really put us in an excellent position to take advantage of a technology like that. And in the vein of CCUS carbon capture as a concept is a very important opportunity area. And another example where you can capture carbon, but not necessarily through a technology is, for example, through our 2 billion trees program, where using nature to capture carbon is another very interesting way to be able to tackle this wall restoring nature and biodiversity and having a number of other positive impacts. So I'd say there's a lot to say for carbon capture technologies and a lot of reasons why it's a unique opportunity area for Canada.
Dan Seguin 16:21
Now, staying on this topic of net zero, which sectors are most likely to achieve Net Zero first?
Debbie Scharf 16:30
That's a very hard question, because it's going to be a tricky path, I think, for all sectors, because each one is going to have its own unique challenges to get to net zero. Typically, when I think about it, we talk a lot about reducing emissions in different sectors. I like to start by talking about the energy mix that actually underpins all sectors, and how do you get that energy next to be clean, reliable and affordable, because without that, you're not going to get any sector to actually adopt those clean energy sources. So it is we're starting with electricity where we've made significant headway and is probably the front runner in Canada as a sector in terms of reducing emissions with the phase out of unabated coal fired electricity generation happening in 2030. We're Canada's international leader, that sectors 83% clean and growing. And we have a commitment to get to net zero emissions in that sector by 2035. But what I will say is that's enormous progress and enormous progress that will be made going forward. And now we have to look at getting clean electricity to more people and more industries. And that will be a challenge in and of itself. And the other part of the energy system that's definitely worth attention and will be so important, are clean fuels like hydrogen, because we know that some industries and applications will not be able to use electricity or are going to need to use clean fuels. So I like to think about how do we get the energy system in the right place, have it reliable, affordable and clean, and then you have to get to adoption, and get each of the sectors to be able to adopt that. And you know, then you get into another set of challenges around technology and industrial processes, which will be a challenge. But you know, I would say electricity probably is coming up at the top.
Dan Seguin 18:06
How is NRCan enabling a clean energy future through electrification?
Debbie Scharf 18:13
Yeah, and I think electricity has made its way into your podcasts in the past. It's a very, very important topic. And that's because there are experts that have estimated that the electricity system may need to double, maybe even triple by the time 2050 comes around. And that is going to be an enormous challenge for Canada and nation building, frankly, a challenge for Canada. Think about railroads, the transmission lines of today are the railroads of the past to be able to get electricity to where it needs to get to. And that's one of the reasons why we have the regional tables where we're talking about electricity, infrastructure and investments there. And we're soon to launch the Canadian electricity Advisory Council, which was previously called the pan Canadian grid council to help help us through some of these challenges are that maybe what I will say is perhaps not NRCan, but the Government of Canada in terms of advancing electrification, I think it is worth just reiterating what was in our federal budget that was just announced a number of weeks ago, because there's some real game changers in there. For example, the introduction of a clean electricity tax credit, which is applicable to tax and non tax entities. And to not use jargon, that means you're not a private sector company, it's still okay, which means utilities can actually get access to these tax credits, which is an enormous leap forward for the application of these tax credits, which will help with the investments required in the electricity sector. There's also new and enhanced low cost financing that's being brought to bear with commitments around how the Canada Infrastructure Bank will be spending its money and the Canada Growth Fund. And then of course, the top up to NRCan programming to the tune of about $3 billion to help ensure critical projects get built. And even more important than having tax credits and strategic financing and targeted programs is that they're all going to work together and really come together in an integrated way to support investment. And I think that is a major leap forward in terms of thinking about how to catalyze investment in this sector.
Dan Seguin 20:04
Now, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges and opportunities that you see?
Debbie Scharf 20:10
I almost feel like the challenge and the opportunity is the flip side of one another. Because huge challenge, we got to build out the system - a huge opportunity, we can build it out more flexibly, more reliably, we could bring more energy efficiency to bear which by the way, will be critical to not overbuilt the system, bring new technologies to bear - like smart grid technologies, and leverage new possibilities like vehicle to grid storage for electric vehicles. Talk about all those batteries that are going to be out there! All of those technologies are enormous opportunities. But the flip side is we need a lot of electricity. And we got to build that out. And what I would say is at the heart of the challenge, is how do you find the balance between having a clean system, an affordable system and a reliable system? And making decisions to build things out in a way that balances those three things, I think is the challenge on the opportunity
Dan Seguin 20:59
To accelerate success, what are the countries should Canada be looking to emulate or learn from?
Debbie Scharf 21:07
Yeah, that is a great point. Because we are not going to get to net zero without learning from partners and others around the world. And there are a few, I think, sort of really good models out there of other countries. And you really need to look to the ones that are tackling similar challenges that we have here in Canada to see what we can learn from them. For example, you know, there's an EU model around integrating regional electricity trade that can be really fascinating for Canada to learn from given that we have fragmented provincial jurisdictions with different market and regulatory structures. And we got to find a way to connect the system together for the collective good. And there are countries like Australia that have quite a similar type of structure to their economy, being the large energy producer, but also wanting to tackle climate and having sort of similar constitutional divisions of labour with their states. And in fact, believe it or not, Australia did something very similar to the regional energy and resource tables. It wasn't called that, but they were a model that we looked at before, before we landed the final design for that particular piece. So we do a lot of international engagement, bilaterally or multilaterally, because there's a lot to learn from others.
Dan Seguin 22:11
Debbie, is it possible to transition to a netzero future without economic hardships in a carbon heavy sector? Can you give an example on how to achieve this?
Debbie Scharf 22:23
Well, to quote another thing that someone wants once mentioned before is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I think we have to very consciously think about the future we want to create, and how to diversify the industries that we have into new product lines, new clean energy opportunities, in the way that we think about the activities we're going to take going forward. But you know, one example that I think is worth picking up on is the work that we're doing on sustainable jobs in particular. Because this is an area that you can really get wrong, and talking about hardship is an area that you absolutely don't want to get wrong. And so really looking at where we want to see economic growth, and how do you support workers to be able to be ready for the type of opportunities that are going to be available in the future. And I would be remiss if I did not mention that we did publish a first interim Sustainable Jobs Plan earlier this year in February, and it talked about 10 key areas where we can make some demonstrable progress, and we already are making demonstrable progress to get the workforce ready for the future. And frankly, it will be a differentiator because you can't have economic activity without people working. And if you don't have the right labor market, there won't be investment decisions made by companies. And so I think that that is one area that we have to get right.
Dan Seguin 23:38
Now, the Royal Bank of Canada released the thought leadership piece last October. That said, the electricity industry is netzero already, but that we would need to double the electricity output that currently exists today. What are your thoughts on Canada's electricity sector, its readiness, and that assessment.
Debbie Scharf 23:59
So I already mentioned that Canada's grid is about 83% non emitting. Having said that, though, there are five provinces where there's still a significant reliance on unabated fossil fuels, provinces like Alberta, Saskatchewan, some Atlantic provinces, Ontario. And so again, where you live matters when it comes to energy, because when it comes to being Net Zero ready, it's going to feel a bit different in those provinces than if you were Quebec or British Columbia. And so we have to really focus on how to support the jurisdictions that need to get there and will be faced with the greatest challenges. And I cannot emphasize enough like the scale of the challenge. We tend to use the word generational quite a bit, perhaps we use it a bit too much. But it is very generational in nature, just in terms of its size and scope. And so, you know, once again, to just mention that we know as a federal government, we need to be a constructive partner in the Federation around these particular issues and to help those jurisdictions that need help to get to where they need to be and the tax measures in the budget are very good exams. boasts of how we do that providing long term stable, predictable investment climate, and frankly, helping to reduce costs, which means reducing ratepayer impacts around these particular projects in the jurisdictions that are going to feel it the most. So do I think that we have the technology to get there? I do. Does that mean that it's going to be easy for those provinces and jurisdictions that have a long way to go? No, it will not be easy.
Dan Seguin 25:25
Interesting. Is there a myth or misunderstanding about the energy transition or netzero, that you wish more people understood?
Debbie Scharf 25:36
This is a great question. So I'm going to answer it a little bit more from the perspective of what I worry about the most, when I think about the work that I do. And what I worry about the most is that we don't always appreciate that Canada is an energy producing nation. So we generate an enormous amount of wealth, security, and cheap energy from our energy sectors. And in turn, we are providing the world with energy security, not every country can say that. In fact, there's a fairly small number of countries around the globe that can say that. But it puts us in a bit of a tricky position, because we're producing a lot of energy for other people. And when we think about getting to net zero, that creates an interesting dynamic for Canada about how we get there. And I look at other countries like Europe, and it makes you realize that energy affordability and energy security is actually our battle to lose, because those are things we have today. But another country, there are countries, they're not things that they have. And we definitely don't want to end up in that particular situation. So we just have to think a little, I worry that people don't appreciate the challenge unique to Canada as an energy producer. And when we're thinking about the energy transition. And when we design our policies, we have to think not just about emission reductions, but how do we continue to generate that wealth, that prosperity and that security from the energy system? And we have to solve all those complex outcomes for Canadians. Otherwise, we're not going to get it right. And we're going to lose the battle.
Dan Seguin 27:02
Finally, Debbie, how do you make the fight against climate change equitable, and accessible for everyone to participate in? What's needed for all Canadians to buy into the net zero plan?
Debbie Scharf 27:16
So a couple of things that I would say about this. The first thing is, all levels of government have to cooperate, right? Like we've got to get, we've got to get the collaborations and partnerships, right to be able to create the enabling conditions to get to where we want to go. I would say that for Canadians, and my sense is, I would feel this, and I do feel this personally. So it is a very personal experience, I need to have a job, I need to put food on the table, I need to feel like I'm making the right choices. I need to feel like the government and the country are making the right choices. And so we just have to make sure that in all the things that we're doing, we're being mindful that these are outcomes that we need to be able to deliver for Canadians, and not only for the Canadians that are employed in the workforce, but for marginalized people, underrepresented groups, like how can we create a very inclusive Canada on the path to net zero. And I think if we can develop the vision and implement a vision for an inclusive, secure, affordable, and prosperous Canada, then we're going to get the buy-in that we need. And the trick is to be able to solve all those things really well.
Dan Seguin 28:20
Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Debbie Scharf 28:27
I am scared but I am ready.
Dan Seguin 28:32
Now, what are you reading right now?
Debbie Scharf 28:34
A historical fiction about World War Two.
Dan Seguin 28:36
Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one?
Debbie Scharf 28:40
Well, I am the eternal optimist. So I would name it Possibility.
Dan Seguin 28:45
Now Debbie, who is someone you truly admire?
Debbie Scharf 28:49
Easiest answer, my mother?
Dan Seguin 28:51
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Debbie Scharf 28:56
And I would say watching my kids grow into adults.
Dan Seguin 29:01
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally since the pandemic began?
Debbie Scharf 29:08
Yeah, so the biggest challenge I would say is actually supporting my children who I think have borne the biggest brunt of pandemic choices in society. So I would say a real sort of personal experience around the pandemic.
Dan Seguin 29:22
Okay, we've been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or even show?
Debbie Scharf 29:29
Yeah, so right now, Firefly Lane and Night Agent, which shows my bizarre ability to move between romantic comedies and action options.
Dan Seguin 29:41
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Debbie Scharf 29:47
Oh, that's an easy question, because I am pretty excited about this industry right now. I think we are in the middle of the most difficult but exciting time in the energy transition. And I'm actually feeling pretty privileged to play a part of on behalf of all Canadians to try and get us there.
Dan Seguin 30:03
Well, Debbie, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect?
Debbie Scharf 30:16
Well, the easiest way to do that is to send an email Debbie Scharf, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Energy Systems Sector at Natural Resources Canada.
Dan Seguin 30:25
Thanks again for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Debbie Scharf 30:29
Thanks so much, Dan.
Dan Seguin 30:33
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Governments around the world are working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Consider Canada’s goal to be net zero by 2050. With targets in place, businesses and organizations are tasked with understanding their own emissions and finding ways to limit them. But where to begin? What’s the cost? On episode 110 of thinkenergy, Glenn Mooney, Manager of Energy Services for Envari Energy Solutions, shares the business case to operate a more sustainable (and competitive) business in the age of net zero targets.
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Dan Seguin 0:06
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The issue of climate change has resulted in a global mission by governments around the world to set targets in an effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In response, businesses and organizations have been tasked with understanding their own emissions, and finding ways to reduce them. But where do businesses begin? Identifying all sources of emissions a business produces can be a daunting task, especially for large organizations with complex operations. Furthermore, collecting, measuring and analyzing data can be time consuming and challenging, especially if the data is dispersed across various systems and departments. It requires specialized equipment, and expertise plus, government regulations can be complex and ever changing, making it difficult for businesses and organizations to stay up to date with the latest requirements. Finally, there is an issue of cost where many businesses and organizations may struggle to justify the expense, especially if they operate in a highly competitive industry with narrow profit margins. How do they navigate what funding and rebates are available? So here is today's big question. How can businesses be informed about their own emissions, and get on track to become a more competitive and sustainable business in the age of net zero targets? Joining us today is Glen Mooney, manager of energy services for inquiry. Glen is responsible for business development, and programs for a variety of energy management and energy advisory services. Glenn, so great to have you join us today. Now, Glenn, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners about Envari and the type of programs and services the organization provides.
Glenn Mooney 2:43
Sure. Envari has been around since 2001. So we just celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, kind of the year before during COVID, so it wasn't much of a celebration. We formed... we've grown out of what was called Energy Ottawa, we've rebranded to Envari a few years back. So that's kind of the history of the organization, we've broken it into three practices, we have a lighting practice, an electrical practice and a buildings practice. And we provide pretty much anything to do with buildings, energy, not just electricity, but electricity, gas, water, Steam, carbon, anything that is a resource or an energy based element. We do on the building side. So I'm responsible for the building side and kind of anything that happens inside them. So we do a lot of systems design for building systems. We do a lot of engineering and audits and assessments and feasibility studies, a lot of green building initiatives. But the one thing we're probably best at is we do a lot of projects, we've probably done well over 1000 energy and sustainability projects from end to end - concept to commissioning, we call it so HVAC, and building automation, ultra efficient heat pumps. We've done a lot of work in that space lately, building automation and controls and doing some really interesting things on the control side, anything data, energy data, carbon data, doing tracking for our customers, and helping to support them with analyzing data and giving them tangible results out of what we find - distributed energy resources. So we've tried to create a business that fits in an area that wasn't serviced well. And I think that served us very well over time.
Dan Seguin 4:12
Cool. So Glen, what are some of the common challenges businesses face when trying to achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets? And how can you help them overcome these challenges?
Glenn Mooney 4:27
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just where to start. This is a new world. It's a new world for all of us. It's a big shift, and they just need some help, some support. Where am I? How do I start? Where do I need to go? What kind of pathway probably an overused term but it fits for the purpose of chasing carbon. The big thing I guess we can help with is the expertise but just we've been through it, so end-to-end again, you need support right from the top. So you need support from your, your CEO level, your CFO level. That's the big challenge because the economics of this is a bit challenging. The asset management people, the operations people is just getting them engaged, get the stakeholders engaged because a lot of money is a big part of this. So it's it's managing that... managing it versus capital plans, those sorts of things. So like we as a company, or as a group of companies, we've kind of taken what our CEO calls a moonshot, we were trying to go to net zero by 2030. And it's going to be a challenge, but hey, we're going to do it.
Dan Seguin 5:23
Now. Glenn, can you help me better understand how you typically approach the analysis of the company's energy usage? And identify areas where improvements can be made?
Glenn Mooney 5:37
Yeah, we start with what we call it an energy balance, which kind of informs a carbon balance. So that's basically taking how much energy does the building use? How does it use it? How does that convert into carbon or your CO2 emissions, or your greenhouse gases, your footprint, whatever you want to call it, and then we start to break it down. There's a lot of intelligence we can get from information just being in some buildings, understanding how systems work and kind of break down that - how is natural gas used in a building? How is electricity used in the building? And then what can you do about the carbon sources like the natural gas? How do you kind of translate those into potential measures that can reduce that footprint, it's tough the grid, you'll never it's tough to get to a zero because the grid itself is not clean. So even just recently, the Ontario grid as they used to say it was 93% clean, it's now closer to 90, because we brought on a little bit more carbon generation for a while. There's some refurbishment is going on in the nuclear side of things. So it's a it's a bit of a challenge to get to zero, there are ways to do it. And that's the path that we try to find. It also kind of brings up as a whole hybrid one, do you still do want the gas meter off the building? Or are you willing to use gas in really tough times when it's an extremely cold day that maybe some of the other surfaces or sources can't totally get you all the heat that you need, say on a cold, cold winter day?
Dan Seguin 6:54
Okay, now, Glenn, maybe you can give an example of a successful energy efficiency project, Envari has implemented for a business that is helping them achieve their greenhouse gas emission targets?
Glenn Mooney 7:08
Sure. I guess the one that comes to mind is kind of a large campus multi use multifunction looking at everything from solar to tons of carbon reduction efforts, looking at their fleet and electric vehicle charging, and the infrastructure that goes with it, the biggest thing with a lot of this new shift to less carbon is the impact on the electrical capacity of the facilities or their own network. And then also, how does it impact the utility, the local distribution company like Hydro Ottawa, because we're now asking for more electricity to support this. A lot is done in building automation systems. So we spend a lot of space there and probably more retro commissioning. The best thing to do is lower your load as low as you can first and then look at other ways of delivering the heating and the cooling to the building. So retro commissioning is one just let's let's minimize the load first, and then start from there. And then the HVAC systems, look at what alternatives are there to existing carbon consuming gas devices in a building. So that's where that hybrid discussion comes in. And it I emphasize that because it is a bit of a mind shift for people, they may want to... let's just get that meter off the building. As I said before, we really need to think that decision through because that's got a lot of impact economically, when you try to go build your business case for it. I think the biggest thing for them sorry, Dan, is just to really match it with your capital plans, let's not throw out good equipment right away. And that's a tendency to kind of model things that way. But let's look at... is that boiler due for replacement in say in 2032, or 33? Let's plan on that, unless you've got a more aggressive target. But let's try to match it up with how you're actually going to do your lifecycle of your equipment.
Dan Seguin 8:47
Now, what role does technology and innovation play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions for businesses? And how does Envari stay up to date with all of those latest technologies?
Glenn Mooney 9:01
So we've mentioned it earlier, we've probably built over 1000 projects. So we know what equipment is out there. We're always engaged with the industry, the manufacturing side and the vendor side to understand what's out there. But we also go beyond that. We've done quite a few pilots. We did one recently, for Natural Resources Canada, where we looked at cold climate heat pumps in real situations, we installed them in actual people's houses, and we monitored them, assessed them and figured out what the advantages were and what the economics of it were. And one of the big things that came out of it is just the improvement that's happened just even in the last three, four or five years to heat pump technologies. For example. We're seeing it more on the industrial side where we were seeing heat pumps right now that we can get 180 and 190 degree water out of temperatures that were never before able to be brought out of heat pumps. So those are big advances as a lot of technology and a lot of R&D going into those areas for different products. And I think we have to be also mindful of the fact that it's going to keep going. So to my example earlier of maybe changing a boiler out in 2020, or sorry, 2033, hard to keep track of time these days, we have to know that there's going to be better technologies then as well. So let's keep some hope for the future.
Dan Seguin 10:15
Okay. How do you ensure that businesses stay compliant with government regulations regarding greenhouse gas emissions?
Glenn Mooney 10:25
So we have a separate to practice that we we call Advisor Plus or I guess, a service where we actually help customers track their energy, track their carbon, advise them, when there's changes, advise them on how markets are going... is there any changes are there regulation changes carbon and commodity pricing of electricity and gas, other elements basically of commodity pricing, and just try to give them some good forecasting, we find that there's a lot of lot of tools out there available to everybody, there's so many sources of information, and we try to kind of bring it down to a simple one. And we provide that to them, rather than them having to go look for it.
Dan Seguin 11:04
Okay, I've got a follow up question here for you, Glen. How do you measure and track progress towards greenhouse emission reduction targets? And what metrics do you use?
Glenn Mooney 11:18
Yeah, and that's the tools part of it. So we have a couple of really great tools. One of them is a dashboard. And I think it's industry leadin, It brings in anything you want to bring into it, electricity, gas, water, steam, carbon, and it's got some really good artificial intelligence in it to A - help you run a facility and get some good insights into how your facility is running. But it's also that record that shows you how you're doing progress wise year over year, month over month, those sorts of things, the metrics we use, we tend to standardize on the federal metrics, because this is across Canada effort that's happening. So I will say Ener-Can probably the, they have a product called red screen that they use for their own modeling. So we tend to know that that will be updated as regular and we've decided as a company that that will be kind of our first level of metric as far as how greenhouse gases are calculated.
Dan Seguin 12:12
Okay, now, let's talk about affordability. How does a company balance the financial costs of implementing energy efficient projects, with the potential cost savings and environmental benefits.
Glenn Mooney 12:28
So there's a lot of grants and incentives and programs and offerings out there, keeping track of it is a challenge where they fit, where they don't fit, and how long the windows are open for, they come onto the market, and then they may be close. So there's limited time to maybe make application to some of these. So that's what we help our customers with is, here's what's available for your project. If there's an urgency to it, we get them through that quickly and get them applied and get them hopefully funded for these because these are not great business cases in a lot of times so those grants are essential to actually driving this forward. It's tough sometimes to make business cases these are these are the realities is natural gas is cheaper than electricity right now, our job is to try to find a way to make it more economically feasible to move to a less carbon intensive source. So that's a challenge. And I mentioned it earlier, getting to that CFO level, educating them on this type of business case, because it's not the simple energy efficiency, simple payback business case, there used to be this longer term play here with longer term implications. So it's getting everybody involved, it's getting shareholders to make a commitment, and then educating people from the top to the bottom.
Dan Seguin 13:36
Now, Glen, how do you educate and train businesses on best practices for reducing greenhouse gas emissions? And what role do employee engagement and behavioral change play in this process?
Glenn Mooney 13:51
Yeah, so it is getting that buy in from the top the shareholders and quite often, that's where it'll come from. It'll come from a shareholder statement. And then the rest of the organization needs to walk the talk. And the people at the top, the executive organization needs to actually walk that talk and show that they're serious about doing this, the CFO has to understand the economics of it and be prepared to support it, it's a lens to this. It's a very, these are very precious resources, and it's how they look at it, you've got to kind of create that lens that everything you do in your business needs to be focused on something like this, our kids will figure it out for us because they're going to tell us when we're offsides, that's what a lot of us are going to bring this, and hear from our own families... what are you guys doing in your business? So I think that's one of the neat pressures that probably gonna hold your feet to the fire on this one. So it's a challenge to get everybody to buy in. But I think good examples, and as we move down this path, I think we're gonna see more and more successes that are going to make it easier for the next company to pick it up and go with it.
Dan Seguin 14:45
Okay. How do you ensure that energy efficiency measures are sustainable, and can be maintained over the long term?
Glenn Mooney 14:56
That's the data part of it is tracking. We do a lot of data acquisition and data analysis with insights. But then we also do a lot of measurement and verification, because this is one of the things that will happen as people make commitments to reducing carbon, there's always going to be watchdogs out there watching to make sure that you've lived up to what you said you're going to live up to. So having that measurement and verification by, kind of an unbiased or an independent group, which we perform a lot for clients, I think is a big part of that, because your going to need to some point, put a stamp on it and say, yes, we saved this much carbon.
Dan Seguin 15:30
Finally, Glen, what advice do you have for businesses that are just starting to address their greenhouse gas emissions? And what are some of the most important steps they can take to achieve their targets?
Glenn Mooney 15:45
I'd say find a friend with knowledge we all do that. There's a tendency because it's new to try to solve the solution in house yourself and try to educate yourself and bring yourself up to speed. But I always believe in surrounding yourself with smart people and just reach out to the people that have already done it, we do the same, like we're not all knowing nobody knows all of this, I think we know a really good share of it. But we have some really smart partners around us that we'll often lean on to provide different components of it that we may not have in house, but we try to have the best minds in the industry around us to support us when we're dealing with customers.
Dan Seguin 16:19
Okay, Glenn. Lastly, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, sir. Are you ready?
Glenn Mooney 16:30
I am ready.
Dan Seguin 16:31
Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?
Glenn Mooney 16:35
It's a book called bear town. It's about a fictitious hockey team. And I won't give it away. But in in another country, you don't really figure that out till halfway through the book. But I played a lot of hockey when I was younger. So I kind of relate to this. Good Book.
Dan Seguin 16:47
Glenn, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do.
Glenn Mooney 16:51
I do not have a boat. I spent a lot of time in my younger years around friends at race boats. I spent a lot of time in boat racing. And I guess the one that sticks in my head was a boat that was just physically a beautiful boat very fast. And it was called Color Me Gone and that's a name that always stuck with me is that was he lived up to his name?
Dan Seguin 17:09
Okay, who is someone that you admire?
Glenn Mooney 17:13
I'd have to go with my father - my parents are amazing people, but my father and my ex... or not my ex father in law. My father in law that just passed away a couple years ago, actually, during COVID. They were just very good people. And my father in law, the way he lived his life was just... be kind of people and that's one that I've always I saw the impact that it had around people. When he passed away there a couple years ago, he was just known as a very kind, gentle person.
Dan Seguin 17:40
Okay, next one here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Glenn Mooney 17:46
I saw David Copperfield live actually at the NAC. And I can remember walking, I was going, I have no idea. It was cool. It was entertaining. But... and the other magic I've had in my life personally, is I was behind the net for the golden goal in Vancouver at the Olympics. So that's a that was a pretty magical moment in another way.
Dan Seguin 18:05
Okay. Glen, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Glenn Mooney 18:14
So one of one of the things I did and I'm, I guess a little bit different, and COVID... I actually lost weight. Because I was working at home, I was very dedicated. I needed to lose weight. So I went and did it. The struggle part of that is keeping it off. So kind of changed lifestyle, you creep back, you kind of make adjustments to go back. So I'm not sure I'm winning yet. But I'm trying hard.
Dan Seguin 18:32
Okay, now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Glenn Mooney 18:41
So what I'm hooked on right now is called Loudermilk. I don't think it's Netflix. I think it's a it's a prime one. It's just funny, I just sorry. It's my type of humor. And I kind of relate to it. It's good. We just finished Daisy Jones in the six which I thought was good. Somebody said last week, I never clued into this, but it's kind of loosely based on the whole drama of Fleetwood Mac. So as so soon somebody said that, I was like okay, now I get it. So yeah, very good series.
Dan Seguin 19:05
Lastly, what's exciting you about the industry right now.
Glenn Mooney 19:10
So I've done this for... I did the math the other day, over 30 years that I've been in the energy type business. And I would say that this is just accelerated about 10 fold. We've done energy, this whole transition to climate change, carbon reduction, it's just foots all fully down on the on the accelerator for this. It's things are going to change so much in the next 20 years, probably far more than I've seen in 30 years before now. So I think that's pretty exciting. We have a lot of young engineers here that are just incredibly smart, but they've got a neat future ahead of them with this.
Dan Seguin 19:43
Well, Glenn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you. How can they connect?
Glenn Mooney 19:59
Envari.com, we have a bunch of video stories of the kind of work we've done. And I would say that just go go take a look at our website, and we've done a really nice job of it and our comms people have done a great job at just trying to frame the work that we've done. So check it out. Envari.com.
Dan Seguin 20:14
Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Glenn Mooney 20:20
It was great. Thanks, Dan.
Dan Seguin 20:21
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Each year, Canadian homes and buildings—and the electricity generated to power them—release 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions into the atmosphere. To limit the impact, the Government of Canada aims to reduce GHG emissions 40–45% by 2030, compared to levels in 2005. And heat pumps are emerging as a solution, increasing energy efficiency while cutting energy costs and lowering carbon emissions. Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, explains on thinkenergy episode 109.
Related links
Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/
Canada Greener Homes Initiative: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-initiative/24831
Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:28
Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that we spend more than 80% of our time indoors, whether it's at home, work, school, shopping, or doing recreational activities. Currently, Canadian homes and buildings combined with the electricity generated to power them, releases 111 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions into our atmosphere every year. To protect our environment and reduce the impact of climate change. The Government of Canada has committed to reducing Canada's total GHG emissions to 40 to 45, below 2005 levels by 2030 and to reaching net zero by 2050. The building sector is the third largest source of emissions in Canada.
Dan Seguin 01:27
As we look for ways to shape a more sustainable future Heat pumps are emerging as one of the climate solutions that can reduce energy costs, lower carbon emissions and increase energy efficiency. Now, I say they're emerging as a climate solution. But in fact, the concept of using heat pumps to transfer heat from one place to another has been around for centuries.
Dan Seguin 01:56
Since its early conception, heat pump technology continued to evolve throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Today, it is widely used for both heating and cooling buildings, as well as for various industrial and commercial applications. So here's today's big question. Are heat pumps the answer to reducing the carbon emissions of Canada's built environment? And are they being adopted at a pace necessary to achieve the 2030 and 2050 targets? Today my special guest is Shawn Carr. Shawn blends energy, sustainability, green building project management experience with business experience as a team leader, manager and developer. He is a strong advocate on climate action and serves on numerous committees with organizations such as Building Owners and Managers Association better known as BOMA, the Ontario Energy Association, and the electricity Distributors Association. He's also the manager of customer experience at Hydro Ottawa. Shawn, welcome to the show. Now, Shawn, this is pretty cool. I understand heat pump technology has been around since 1857. At a high level, what are heat pumps? And how do they work?
Shawn Carr 03:29
Well, you're absolutely right, Dan heat pumps have been around a long time. And they're actually a proven and reliable technology here in Canada and around the world. And they're capable of providing year round Comfort Control for your home by supplying heat in the winter, cooling in the summer, and in some cases heating hot water for your home as well. In fact, it's likely that most people have already interacted with this type of technology on a daily basis. For example, both refrigerators and air conditioners operate using the same principles and technology as heat pumps do. A heat pump is essentially just an electrical driven device that extracts heat from a low temperature place and delivers it to a high temperature place. So if you think of your home as a big refrigerator as energy is extracted from the air inside your home and transferred outside, it's going to cool the inside of your home. This is how pumps operate in essence In cooling mode. Similarly, if we were to talk about the heating mode, as heat is grabbed from outside from the air and moved inside your home the temperature is actually going to increase inside your home. And so essentially what that means is a heat pump is fully reversible. It can both heat and cool. And so in essence it has dual functionality. I think what makes heat pumps so different from other heating technologies such as gas furnaces and boilers is that those technologies provide space heating by adding heat to the air through a combustion process. So for example, combusting a fuel such as natural gas. And although their efficiencies have improved, they are still below 100%, meaning not all the available energy from combustion is used to treat the air, there are losses involved through incomplete combustion, and heat lost in the exhaust air. So, heat pumps work on a different principle, the electricity input into the heat pump is used to just transfer thermal energy between two locations, there is actually no combustion process at all. Heat pumps don't generate heat, they just redirect existing heat from one location to another. And so what that means is it allows them to operate much more efficiently. And so I thought it would be valuable just to explain kind of how efficiency is measured with a heat pump, it's actually expressed by something called the coefficient of performance, typically referred to as the COP . And what the COPis, is a ratio between the rate at which the heat pump actually transfers thermal energy, and the amount of electrical power it actually consumes. So, for example, if a heat pump used one unit of energy to transfer the heat equivalent of three units of energy, the COP would be three, and its efficiency would be 300%. So it actually delivers three times more energy than it consumes, in that example. Why does that matter? Well, knowing the COP of a heat pump allows you to judge how efficiently the unit is working. And so the higher the COP , the less electricity a heat pump consumes. So it's kind of like magic. And what I'll say is a COP of three or higher is actually pretty common with this new era of heat pumps, even in colder locations where there is less heat to transfer. And so it's also important to understand, though, as the outside air temperature drops, so does the COP. And so by point of comparison, if you were just using electric resistance heating, like baseboards, to heat your home, they actually have a COP of one. Okay, cool now, so why are heat pumps more popular than ever right now? Yeah, I mean, Heat pumps are certainly having a moment right now, in particular, this new era of heat pumps, and that's because they are a big lever for decarbonisation, and reaching net zero emissions by 2050. Technology and heat pumps have advanced dramatically, making them more efficient and more affordable even in cold climates. So in Canada, heating our homes accounts for about 16% of the carbon emissions in our country. And space and water heating specifically represent about 85% of residential greenhouse gas emissions. So replacing fossil fuel heating systems with electric options will significantly decrease household emissions. We could just use more traditional forms of electric heat like baseboards and electric furnaces, but the pumps are far more efficient options of beneficial electrification. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts, and we want to do it cost effectively for Canadians, switching to a heat pump is one of the most impactful ways of reducing your home's emissions. Heat pumps are becoming a pillar in a home electrification strategy.
Dan Seguin 09:21
Now, Shawn, answer this for me. Why is running our home with more electricity and choosing a heat pump a climate friendly choice?
Shawn Carr 09:31
Thanks for that Dan. It's a good question. I mean, first of all, there are lots of different fuels or energy types that can power our homes we you know, we've we commonly use natural gas propane furnace oil and electricity to heat our homes and all of these energy types have different carbon footprints and some are much more environmentally friendly than others. So if we talk about Canada, we have, as a country, one of the cleanest power grids in the world, and our government has committed to having a netzero energy grid by 2035. So even in regions where there may still be a significant portion of electricity generation that relies on fossil fuels, that electricity generation will steadily get cleaner and cleaner while burning, non renewable natural gas or propane in your home for heat is always going to produce emissions. And so there have actually been reports on the different ways for Canada to get to net zero. And the modeling consistently shows that electrification of heating as a necessary part of the transition to net zero and Canada's building sector. And so heat pumps specifically are critical to Canada's energy transition. In fact, probably critical to the world's energy transition, the technology is proven, they use up to 70% less energy than conventional home heating technologies, and they will probably become the default means of heating both indoor spaces and hot water systems in the near future. The other thing I'll point out is that air conditioning demand is rising. And by providing both heating and cooling heat pumps can help people manage climate impacts in regions where people may not have air conditioning today, but are starting to face hotter, and more frequent summer heat waves. We witnessed that with what happened with the fires and in British Columbia, and those are in regions where people traditionally may have not had air conditioning.
Dan Seguin 11:47
Now, what is a cold climate heat pump? And is that what Canadians should purchase?
Shawn Carr 11:56
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. And so advancements in air source heat pump technology now means that there are heat pump options that are, I would say, far better suited or adapted to operating in the cold Canadian climate. And those are referred to as cold climate heat pumps. What makes them different from a traditional air source heat pump is it's really just some of the equipment that's contained within the unit. So they use variable capacity compressors, inverters, improved heat exchanger designs and controls to maximize heating capacity at colder temperatures while maintaining high efficiencies during milder conditions. And so what that means is they can still redirect heat from outside to inside your home quite efficiently even in conditions down to minus 20 degrees Celsius or less. So to classify as a cold climate heat pump under the federal Canada greener homes grant, which we can talk more about later, heat pumps must have a coefficient of performance a COP of 1.8 or higher at minus 15 degrees Celsius. So that means that the heat pump must maintain an efficiency of at least 180% at minus 15 Celsius. And just again, as a reminder, the most efficient gas burning furnaces out there have an efficiency of like 96 or 97%.
Dan Seguin 13:37
Okay, I've got another follow up question here for you. Can cold climate heat pumps meet the heating demand on their own? Or are there circumstances where backup heat is required?
Shawn Carr 13:53
Yeah, so I guess the short answer is it depends. You know, whether or not you need a backup heat source for your heat pump is going to depend, you know, on a number of factors, you know, for example, the type of heat pump you purchase, the climate zone you live in, and the design and efficiency of of your home. So, in some parts of Canada that are milder, a heat pump might be all you need, but in other colder areas, you will most certainly need a backup system. And that's because, you know, as the temperature drops, heat pumps start to become less efficient at heating. And when the temperature gets to a certain point, you know, the unit will shut off altogether, or it'll work in tandem with your backup heat system. And that shut off point is going to depend on your unit, the unit that you chose, but typically, that shutoff point could be anywhere from minus 15 Celsius down to minus 25 Celsius or lower. So, you know, what I will also say is the heat pump system is not typically sized to deliver 100% of the peak heating load that your home is designed for, because that could lead to an oversize system that might cycle on and off. So it's really important, I would say that if you're considering a heat pump that you work with a mechanical contractor for selecting and specifying a heat pump, and a backup heat source that's going to be right for your home, you know, right for your budget and your needs. And there are many options for a backup heat system. Some heat pumps come with an integrated electric resistance heating system that functions as a backup system at very low temperature. So think of that as just like an electric resistance element like a hairdryer that's been installed inside your duck. However, there are also natural gas backup options such as traditional high efficiency furnaces that can be used as a backup source if your home happens to be centrally ducted. And these are often referred to as hybrid heating systems.
Dan Seguin 16:13
Now, Shawn, what are some factors to consider when deciding if a heat pump is the right choice for your home?
Shawn Carr 16:21
Yeah, I mean, I think like I mentioned a bit earlier, a heat pump is probably the biggest thing that a homeowner can do at home to help fight the climate crisis. On top of it, you know, if you were to do the math, and consider the upfront costs, the current incentives and the ongoing energy costs associated with operating that cold climate heat pump, you know, the choice to go with a heat pump, in most cases is going to be pretty clear. That said, picking the right heat pump for your home requires planning and requires a mechanical system contractor that can help you navigate the heat pump journey and kind of guide you through that process. And the reason I say that's important is because you know, there's a lot of different things that you need to consider in this decision. For example, do I want an air source heat pump or a ground source heat pump? You know, will it be ducted? Or a ductless? System? Can I get away with just getting a traditional air source heat pump? Or do I need a cold climate heat pump? What size of heat pump do I need? And should it be sized for the heating load or the cooling load in my home? What are the economics around purchasing and operating a heat pump in your area compared to another type of heating system? How long is it going to take to recover the added cost of a heat pump through energy cost savings? Is my jurisdiction planning to implement any restrictions on fossil fuel heating, you know? Will a heat pump even work in my home? You know, will there be any added disruption to actually install it kind of like buying a car? You know what, what brand of heat pump? Should I go with? You know what warranties are available? What maintenance is needed? So I think as you can see down, there's just you know, there's a lot to consider. And I think despite all of these considerations, my opinion is that a heat pump will almost always be the right technology choice for your home. But making the best overall choice requires advanced planning. And it really has more to do with finding a good contractor that can help you make an informed decision rather than a snap decision when something goes wrong with your current system. You know, this is a big purchase. And you're going to need to live with that decision for maybe 15 years or more. So it's important to get it right. And I would say that, you know, if you happen to be listening to this podcast, a podcast that already gives you a good start because you now know that a heat pump is another option.
Dan Seguin 19:12
How do you determine what size heat pump you need?
Dan Seguin 19:17
Well, Dan, I guess I guess in this case, I mean size does matter. I mean the size is one of the most important things to get right. You can't just walk into your basement, look at the size of your gas furnace, and assume you need an equivalent sized heat pump. It doesn't work that way. The general rules of thumb often used by the industry for sizing heating and cooling loads generally result in an oversized system which is more expensive to operate and harder to control for comfort. So this is why it's so important, in my opinion, just to work with an energy consultant or a mechanical systems contractor who understands heat pumps. And so natural resource Canada, for example, has actually developed a toolkit for Air Source Heat Pump sizing and selection. And it's to help the contractor community and the design community to determine optimal sizing needs for customers. And so the guide actually helps with defining the key Air Source Heat Pump requirements. So things like, you know, what configuration makes sense for my home ducted versus ductless? You know, what are the heating and cooling loads in my home? What are the target capacity requirements, and then what the tool does is it kind of matches up good heat pump candidates for your requirements. And the toolkit actually goes as far as providing guidelines that also help with, you know, defining the control strategy for your heat pump and the backup heating requirements. And so the federal and in fact, actually, the federal incentives that are available through the greeter homes initiative are also contingent on getting the heat distribution right. So the sizing is important. And Enercan is looking to verify that whoever worked on your project has looked at that through that lens.
Dan Seguin 21:19
Okay, something a little more technical here. Our air source and ground source heat pumps are the most common types for Canadians. And maybe you can talk to us about what are some of the differences?
Shawn Carr 21:34
Yeah, I would say that they're certainly the two most common types for Canadians. I mean, air source is by far the most common type for Canadians followed by ground source. Really, the main difference with a ground source heat pump is they actually use the ground as the source of heat in the winter, and as a reservoir to reject heat removed from the home in the summer. And so rather than the air being the heat transfer mechanism, it's actually the ground, the main advantage of ground source heat pumps is they are not subject to the extreme temperature fluctuations we get with air because the ground is a more constant temperature source throughout the year. And what that ends up ultimately doing is it actually can drive higher efficiencies. The downside to ground source heat pumps, typically is that they are more expensive to install, there's more labor involved, and they may also require landscape alterations, so they may not be suitable for for all property types, depending on whether you've got the space in the land to be able to accommodate the loops that need to get installed in the ground and so on. So, you know, that said they're, they're very efficient, which means greater energy savings and ground source, heat pumps tend to work well and in almost all climates because they're not impacted by big fluctuations in outdoor air temperature. Very interesting. Now, can heat pumps be combined with renewable energy sources like solar? For sure. I mean, absolutely. I, you know, combining a heat pump with a solar array that will, you know, reduce your electricity consumption and costs can further improve the business case over the lifecycle of the heat pump system compared to, you know, a fossil fuel energy system. And so, you know, if you're in a jurisdiction with clean electricity generation, combining that heat pump with a solar system, it will result in you not emitting any net operational greenhouse gasses. So yeah, I mean, pairing it up is, you know, is a great solution, if you can afford the capital to do it.
Dan Seguin 24:03
This is an important topic here. Now, what kind of incentives and rebates exist out there?
Shawn Carr 24:11
Yeah. Well, so this is becoming harder to keep up. But what I would say is, it really depends on where you live, as there are many different incentives, rebates, you know, grants and, and financing options that are offered by municipalities, provinces and utilities and and they vary across Canada as it relates to heat pumps. And so I'm just going to focus on our federal program because the federal government has created a national green energy program called the Canada greener homes initiative, and it actually provides grants from $125 to $5,000. For eligible home retrofits and up to six $100 towards the cost of a pre and post retrofit home energy audit, their program also offers up to $40,000 in interest free loans with a repayment term of 10 years to help you undertake home retrofits. And so with respect to heat pumps, specifically, rebates through this program range from $2,500 for ductless, air source heat pump system to $5,000 for a centrally ducted cold climate, air source, heat pump. So, you know, between the federal incentive and any additional provincial or regional incentives and the financing options that are available that are in this case, no no interest and spread over 10 years, it can make a lot of financial sense to invest in a heat pump, you know, depending on your circumstances. And so I'll also say for our local listeners here in Ottawa that the City of Ottawa is Better Homes program also offers low interest loans for home energy efficiency and carbon reducing retrofits including heat pumps.
Dan Seguin 26:13
Shawn, if memory serves me, right, you recently installed a cold climate heat pump in your home? Did you take advantage of any incentives? And did it make the project financially viable for you?
Shawn Carr 26:30
So yes, Dan, I did install a cold climate heat pump in November of last year 2022. And we did take advantage of the $5,000 federal incentive for the cold climate heat pump. In our case, there were two primary motivations for wanting a heat pump, our primary motivation was to reduce our households greenhouse gas emissions footprint, and I knew that electrifying most of our heating load using a heat pump would have the largest impact on our GHG footprint for the investment. The second motivator was the role of the federal incentive program and how that allowed us to plan the project so that I could get the system I wanted within a budget that we were comfortable with. And in our situation, what I'll say when you know, what I'll share with our listeners is like we elected to pay a bit more upfront, because we wanted a high efficiency cold climate heat pump that was backed by a good warranty, we also opted for electric backup heat rather than a high efficiency gas furnace. And I was able to do that. I had the advantage of my electrical service was able to accommodate that choice without any additional investment. And we went as far as to also investing in a more advanced control strategy, since I like data and I kind of you know, believe that they're kind of the proof is in the pudding with this stuff. And so yeah, so I'm paying close attention to you know, how much energy my heat pump compressors using the fan, the electric backup, heat, and so on. And so you know, I'll have more information to obviously share as we go through a few more heating and cooling seasons. But what I'll say is, so for our case, after applying for the federal incentive of $5,000, after we applied that to the total project cost, and actually comparing the final system costs to what it would have costed to just install another high efficiency gas furnace and a traditional air conditioning system, it only cost me about $3,000 more to get what I wanted. So I have been paying attention to my energy use over the last few months. And I would say that my energy costs are comparable to what they were before. In fact, they've actually gone down a little bit. But I've also elected to maintain my gas connection to my home, right because we have two gas fireplaces that I did not know we've elected to keep for now. And in our project case, like we, I've already noticed that my household GHG emissions have gone down by about 75%. And you know, we were able to finance the entire project over 10 years with a zero interest loan. So we're pretty happy with our decision. And what I'll say is that we've actually noticed some other intangible benefits, you know, our home is more comfortable, I would say than it was before we no longer have to worry about setting the temperature back at night and then having it ramp up before we get up. Our heat pump is designed to run at lower temperatures at lower speeds for much longer run times and they can ramp up to meet the demand in your home as it's required. So they're really kind of designed to run sort of low and slow. And for us what that meant is, you know less cold spots in different parts of our home. Warm it's kind of a constant temperature throughout. And we really noticed that difference. Also, since I completed my heat pump project, I will say that they've since announced enhanced incentives for heat pumps through our gas company. And so between the gas company and the federal program, there's actually up to $6,500 Available now. So, you know, I mean, being an early adopter cost me a bit more, but I hope others will follow.
Dan Seguin 30:29
Okay, what kind of energy savings, utility cost savings and greenhouse gas emissions reductions could be expected from the installation of a cold climate Air Source Heat Pump?
Shawn Carr 30:45
Yeah, you're probably getting tired of me saying this. But I guess again, it depends on a lot of different factors, some of which I touched on earlier. So you know, things like how old your home is, how well insulated it is, how airtight it is, you know, what type of cold climate heat pump you have, what climate zone you live in. That said, though, like getting back to, do you know, your question about what kind of energy savings and cost savings and emission reductions can you expect? What I will say is, last year natural resources Canada published a really good report that specifically assessed the cost effectiveness, energy savings in greenhouse gas emission reductions in a variety of different types of homes in different locations in Canada. And so the report, you know, sort of seeked out to answer the question that you put forward. And so what I'll do is I'll just share some of the high level findings from that report. So first of all, the report found that cold climate heat pumps generate less greenhouse gas emissions and are cheaper to operate than oil furnaces, or electric resistance heating in all parts of Canada across the board period. For the majority of Canadians, cold climate Heat pumps are going to generate less GHG emissions than gas furnaces, but it does depend on how clean the source of electricity is in your province. So that's an important consideration. But the trend is moving towards our grid getting cleaner in areas where they aren't currently clean. So I think at some point, we're going to reach a point where that statement is going to hold true right across, you know, right across Canada. The report also indicated that if you're in an all electric service scenario, meaning you're disconnected from the gas utility altogether, the results show that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate than a gas furnace in most regions of Canada. If you're like me, in a split Gas Electric scenario, meaning you've maintained the gas connection in the home for whatever reason, you know, you're you're like having a gas stove, or you're like having a gas barbecue, or you have a gas fireplace, the results showed that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate in some areas in some jurisdictions, but in other areas, overall utility costs actually increased marginally like roughly 100 to $500 a year. And I think that was the situation in provinces like Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta, and some colder regions in BC. So that's what the report found. It also highlighted that for a gas hybrid configuration, so people who opt to go for a cold climate heat pump with a gas backup furnace, that that option may be more attractive to homeowners who opt for that split gas electrical service due to the associated savings. And so all that to be said, the report lays out the expected savings from different scenarios. So I would encourage, you know, listeners to have a look if they want to understand kind of you know what the findings are in their jurisdiction for their particular use case.
Dan Seguin 33:57
Shawn, having just gone through the process, what are some of the other things people should know? If they want to consider a cold climate heat pump?
Shawn Carr 34:09
Yeah, well, I can't emphasize enough to plan early. You know, we started planning our own project at home a year in advance. And so in our case, to start the process, we had an energy audit done, which helped validate where our biggest carbon and energy impacts were and what measures we could implement to address those impacts. And the number one recommendation in the audit report we received was to consider a cold climate heat pump we did we then did some research on the incentive program requirements to understand the process for receiving the incentive and I actually got some help from one of our internal energy consultants and you know, they they have experience with heat pumps on the commercial side and they helped me model the performance of some different units and helped me with my backup heat strategy. They validated equipment sizing, you know, looked at my utility bills and really and then modeled that energy and carbon reduction savings over time based on changing energy rates. And so once we went through that process, we engaged a local contractor that had heat pump experience. And what I'll say is applying for the incentive itself is pretty straightforward. But there's a lot of demand for the program. So the process can actually take some time. The other thing I'll mention is you will also have to pay for all the project costs upfront, even if the incentives and loans are approved, so the cash isn't going to start flowing from the program until after the work is actually completed. The other piece of advice I'll provide is, don't wait until your furnace or air conditioner breaks down to think about a heat pump. You know, we had a perfectly functioning gas furnace and air conditioner that was about three quarters through its statistical life expectancy. When we started planning this project, the majority of people make H fac investment decisions at a time in crisis, such as in February, when you need heat, or in July, when you need air conditioning. And in those scenarios, you're going to be locked in to whatever system is available for another 15 years that won't deliver the benefits that a heat pump would. So I think those are just some of the things that you know, I would advise people to take into consideration.
Dan Seguin 36:29
Thanks, Shawn. Okay, let's move on. What is Canada's rate of adoption for heat pumps compared to other countries? And what would you say are the biggest barriers to adoption right now?
Shawn Carr 36:44
Yeah, good question. I mean, I've read some different statistics on adoption rates in Canada, but just ballpark what I'd say is, you know, what I've read is that there's about 750,000 air source heat pumps installed in Canada today. And by contrast, there are over 5 million homes currently heated by natural gas. And by 2030, we need more than 10% of home heating in Canada to come from heat pumps, just more than double the current levels in order to align with Canada's climate targets. And some jurisdictions will say that the percentages need to be even higher than that. I also recently read that in the US last year, annual heat pump sales rose above 4 million units for the first time, outpacing sales of gas powered furnaces. So policy incentives have certainly bolstered heat pump adoption in the US. And I think it's safe to say that the heat pump curve will take off even further. But we do need adoption to accelerate at a much faster pace if we want to meet our climate targets. To address the second part of your question, you know, barriers to adoption, I think it's a combination of things. There are barriers both on the demand side and on the supply side. So on the demand side, more education, I think, is needed. These new generation of heat pumps are far better than the versions of the past, not just in terms of efficiency, but in terms of the comfort they provide as well. I think more customer awareness is needed around the benefits of heat pumps. But the customer experience associated with adopting a heat pump can also be pretty messy. And so I think that's something that needs to be improved. And so for example, if you go to a contractor to ask about heat pumps, some don't know about heat pumps, or some don't want to sell them. And so that can result in a poor customer experience. In addition, often this engagement, as I said earlier, is done at a time of crisis, when something is broken, you need to make a quick impulsive decision. And so if a gas furnace or an air conditioner is all that's available in the shop, because that's what the supply chain and manufacturers are focused on, that's likely the only option you're going to have in that emergency situation. And so I think the thing that's frustrating about that is heat pumps are not that different from air conditioners, they have a few extra parts that make them a bit more expensive. So manufacturers are not prioritizing key pumps just yet. So they don't tend to be readily available. So you know, again, in an emergency repair situation, that's not the best time to make a logical long term decision that might lock you into 50 more years of higher carbon emissions. And so I talked earlier about the importance of sizing and selecting equipment properly and the inputs that contribute to that. I think that changes the sales and adoption cycle especially if you have to plan for pre and post home energy audits in order to be eligible for these rebates. So the price process is different. And it's important that it's well understood and that that the planning happened well in advance so that you can make the right choices along that journey without the recent availability of grants and, you know, low interest loans and tax rebates, heat pumps, in particular cold climate heat pumps, I'd say have been cost prohibitive for for most, but I think that's, that's starting to change now, with the new incentive programs that will make it easier for consumers to make the right sustainable long term decision. I think, you know, one of the other things is I also think we need to expand the workforce and build more capacity for trained installers, you know, while expanding manufacturing, which is all going to eventually further drive down the costs of heat pumps, we need to get to a point where every air conditioner that's being replaced is just automatically being substituted by a heat pump. Instead, I think that that would be the desired future, there are still manufacturing constraints and supply chain vulnerabilities. And in my case, I had to wait six months for my heat pump. And that happened to be during the pandemic when supply chains were even more constrained. But you know, whether it's six weeks or six months, that's not feasible in terms of the customer journey, when taking into consideration this technology. So I think that these are all barriers I don't have. There isn't a magic bullet. I think they all just need to be addressed simultaneously.
Dan Seguin 41:29
Now, I'm hoping you can add a bit of color here, Shawn, what would you say are some of the solutions to help overcome market constraints and accelerate adoption rates?
Shawn Carr 41:42
Yeah, good. Good question. And I think technology is always going to be an enabler, continuing to improve heat pump efficiency, and unlocking the supply chain will drive down the cost for that increased efficiency. And I think you know, that's going to be particularly important at cold temperatures, because higher efficiency at cold temperatures might mean that there is less of a need for backup heat options, or it might make those backup heat options more cost effective. And so for example, increasing the efficiency might mean not requiring as much electrical backup heat, which could alleviate having to upgrade an electrical service. Right. So that helps homeowners on the cost side, but it also helps utilities and grid planning and so on. As we add more load to the system. I think leveraging data and analytics, I think there's some opportunities there as well. If utilities can get better at predicting who will and who will not need a service upgrade. It could help with system planning. If you knew that ahead of time, we could save customers time, cost and hassle potentially, I talked earlier about just building and adopting the workforce. So thinking about how we incent H fac professionals to get additional training and educate homeowners on the benefits of heat pumps during routine service calls and make it more desirable to sell heat pumps than conventional air conditioners, we could never have enough customers. You know education. I think education drives demand and demand helps unlock supply chains. So if demand increases, or if manufacturers make heat pumps, the first option instead of an air conditioner may go a long way to help the manufacturer contractor model. And ultimately, consumers won't have to navigate all this complexity. So we have to make this an easy decision and a good customer experience for consumers. And one of the other ways to do that is to keep up with the incentives, the grants, the tax rebates, the long term low interest, no interest financing so that heat pumps just become the obvious choice and uptake continues to accelerate.
Dan Seguin 44:09
Okay. Now, what are the implications of the mass adoption of heat pumps on the electricity system?
Shawn Carr 44:18
Okay. Interesting. Well, what I'll say is that there are certainly implications particularly for heating today, we predominantly use fossil fuels, mainly natural gas to heat our homes. And so when heat pumps are installed to replace fossil fuel heat, those Heat pumps are going to increase the electricity demand in the heating season. Exactly how much demand really depends on how efficient each home is at retaining heat and the backup heat option. people happen to choose gas versus electric for example, if everyone went with electric backup heat, and we had a long, extremely cold spell a lot more peak load would be added to the system over that extreme cold period if everyone had electric backup heat. And so you know from a utility perspective, I think the approach we are taking here at hydro Ottawa is to investigate and model the implications of all types of beneficial electrification on the electricity system. So heat pumps and electric vehicles, for example, for different degrees of adoption so that we have a better understanding of the implications on grid infrastructure planning and the overall utilization of our grid. There are many factors that are going to determine what Hydro Ottawa will need to do to ensure its distribution system continues to be able to enable heat pumps for customers, such as understanding how customers use them, you know, planning our system to incorporate them and integrating other technologies like distributed energy resources and other non wire alternatives as solutions to any grid challenges.
Dan Seguin 46:10
What's the concern about heat pumps increasing demand during peak times? Are utilities preparing for this?
Shawn Carr 46:21
Yeah, so today's grid infrastructure planning is largely determined based on peak demand, you know, which currently occurs in the hottest periods of the summer months in most locations. That said, a heat pump draws a similar load to an air conditioner when it's operating in the cooling mode. So you know, if you were to replace your air conditioner with a heat pump, that's going to have a similar impact with respect to electricity use during the cooling season, like in the hot summer. On the cooling side, though, as I mentioned earlier, we're also seeing demand for air conditioning rise with more heat emergencies and extreme heat events due to climate change. So that's going to increase demand as people start installing air conditioning, or heat pumps where mechanical cooling didn't exist before in those homes. On the heating side, however, electrifying more of our heat with heat pumps might mean we could be moving towards more winter peaks in the future, as opposed to, you know, summer being a summer peaking province here in Ontario like we are today. The big question is, how much electrification? How quick. And what's it going to cost at this scale and marginal grid expansion is predictable. But when you're talking at the macro level, it's much more difficult, which is why we are planning for these different scenarios.
Dan Seguin 47:59
Now, Shawn, is it fair to say that heat pumps can contribute significantly to the electrification movement and Canada's net zero by 2050 goals?
Shawn Carr 48:12
If so, how? Dan without question, electrifying our heating and cooling systems with heat pumps, as I said earlier, are the most impactful way to reduce emissions in our homes space and water heating represents about 85% of residential GHG emissions. A heat pump for space heating alone can reduce your emissions by about 65%. And if you add a water heater in your home, you might then be 85% of the way there. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts as a country, a widespread switch to heat pumps could make a big difference. If uptake accelerates fast enough, this is going to require a team effort. We need stakeholders working together, not getting in the way, you know, governments, utilities, educational institutions, the workforce supply chains, manufacturers, contractors, we all need to work together to ensure that heat pumps are readily available, accessible and affordable for all Canadian households so that this becomes the default heating and cooling technology of choice in new and existing homes. So why not be proactive? Think ahead, take advantage of available incentives and consider upgrading to a GHG friendly heating technology.
Dan Seguin 49:40
Okay, now, Shawn, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Sir. Are you ready?
Shawn Carr 49:51
I'm ready, Dan.
Dan Seguin 49:52
Shawn, what are you reading right now?
Shawn Carr 49:56
I'm actually not reading a novel right now. I'm just listening to a lot of Podcasts on the energy transition Dan.
Dan Seguin 50:03
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.
Shawn Carr 50:08
I would name my electric boat, One Planet, because we only got one planet. But sometimes we forget about that.
Dan Seguin 50:16
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Shawn Carr 50:21
Well, geez, I mean it since Heat pumps are top of mind right now, I would say that this technology is pretty magical.
Dan Seguin 50:28
Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Shawn Carr 50:36
Wow, I probably would just say the social isolation we all had to experience and you know, just seeing the impact that that had on my two teenagers who were going through high school during the pandemic, which is such an important time in their development. I think that was something that was tough on them and tough on me as a parent.
Dan Seguin 51:00
Okay, a little fun here. We've all been watching a little more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Shawn Carr 51:10
There's been so many good TV shows lately, you know, YellowStone, House of Dragons, the Bear, White Lotus. And Your Honor, we're all great. But if I had to pick one show as the best of all time for me, it would be Seinfeld.
Dan Seguin 51:26
Lastly, Shawn, what is exciting you about our industry right now?
Shawn Carr 51:32
Well, I'd have to say it's the energy transition and everything that is happening to electrify our economy. It's complex, challenging, and a very exciting time to be at a utility. But this is really important that we get this right.
Dan Seguin 51:48
Well, Shawn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect? Well, the best way to get me is probably by email ShawnCarr@HydroOttawa.com.
52:09
Again, thank you so much for joining me today. Hope you had a lot of fun. I did, Dan. Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Canada is at the forefront of the global energy transition, leading with the goal to be net zero by 2050. To get there, the electricity sector must be decarbonized by 2035, from coast-to-coast, province-to-territory. So what does that transition look like close to home? How will customers be impacted in the near future? The Ontario Energy Board’s Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer, and Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Services Officer & General Counsel, share their insight on thinkenergy episode 108.
Related links
Carolyn Calwell, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-calwell-648318b0/
Harneet Panesar, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harneetp/
Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/
Engage with Us, OEB digital engagement platform: https://engagewithus.oeb.ca/
Energy Exchange: https://www.energy-exchange.net/
Adjudicative Modernization Committee: https://www.oeb.ca/stakeholder-engagement/stakeholder-engagement/adjudicative-modernization-committee
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnerfy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. The world is going through a major energy transition driven by a multitude of reasons. political policy, economic prosperity, environmental urgency, social change, Greta Thornburg, technological advancements and innovation to name just a few. Canada is at the forefront of the energy transition movement and certainly seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its aggressive target, to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Of course, the country's other closer Net Zero target is the decarbonisation of the electricity sector by 2035. emissions free electricity grids in every province, and territories across Canada in just under 12 years. For many provinces and utilities, the race to transition their energy sectors began years ago, in Ontario, where the electricity grid is already more than 90% emissions free. This was in part due to the provincial shutdown of all coal plants between 2005 and 2014. It's no longer business as usual for energy providers, how we've operated for more than 100 years is neither viable nor sustainable. It's becoming clearer and clearer that for the Net Zero future to be reality, we must go further, still eliminating and remaining emissions from our provincial grid to make wait for the electrification of our grid, our vehicles and yes, our houses and buildings. But with all of the unknowns in our evolving energy future, there needs to be a steady hand to help guide the way forward. Enter the provincial regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, energy utilities are more closely regulated than many other industries because of their unique characteristic surrounding energy supply, and delivery. So here is today's big question. Given that the electrical grid needs to be emission free by 2035, what does the energy transition look like here at home in Ontario? What can customers expect in the near future? Today, my special guests are Carolyn Calwell, Chief Corporate Service Officer and General Counsel, and Harneet Panesar, Chief Operating Officer of the Ontario Energy Board. Welcome to the show, Carolyn. And perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourselves, your background, and why you chose to join the Ontario Energy Board.
Carolyn Calwell 03:39
Thanks, Dan. I'm a lawyer by training. I started off in private practice at a big firm and then I moved into the public sector, first at the municipal level and later at the provincial level. Shortly after I began working for the Ontario Provincial Government, I got into energy when that ministry merged with the one I was hired to. And that gave me the opportunity to work on the energy file in progressively senior legal positions, while also serving some other ministries. I eventually became an assistant deputy minister at the Ministry of Energy with a broad portfolio that touched on things like distribution, transmission, agency oversight, indigenous energy policy issues, all kinds of things, lots of fun with a lot of challenging files, and always with great people to work with. So then, when the restructuring of the EOEB came along, I got excited about where the OEB was gonna go. On a personal level, I saw an opportunity to work on things from both policy and legal perspectives as the chief Corporate Services Officer and General Counsel. And I saw the chance to learn some new skills in the corporate services side of things. And I also saw an opportunity to learn the role of the regulator and get a new perspective on files I'd worked on. So most enticing though, was the opportunity to make some changes a lot like her nude, so I was thrilled by the opportunity to come over.
Harneet Panesar 04:54
Alright, thanks, Dan. So in terms of my background, maybe I'll open it up by saying you know, Today as we talk, I'm hoping to bring three different perspectives, and three different hats that I can wear. And the first one is that a utility, you know, I've spent about 14 years working for Hydro oOne, which is Ontario's largest transmission and distribution company. And I did nine different roles across the organization. And most recently, just before I left, I was Director of Strategy and Integrated Planning. My team looked after the investment plan, the overall capital that the utility was looking to spend, I had the strategy Research and Development Innovation team. And I also had a team that focused on reliability, which is a very important outcome for utility. So we focused on metrics benchmarking studies, and I had a really cool team. I'm an engineer by background. So I find this fascinating, I had a team that did post event investigations. So when equipment fields, we bring in massive cranes, pull them out, and dissect them to see what went wrong, and try and see if there's any systematic issues that we could look to solve across the system. I also had a team that looked after the modernization of the joint use portfolio, which is the use of the poles that are looking to attach other things aside from electricity, infrastructure, it could be things like fiber and telecommunication things or other things that, you know, cities and municipalities might want to attach to poles. And lastly, we also looked after secondary land use for hydro and corridors and pathways for things like parking, lots, parks, pathways, things like that. In June of 2021, I got a phone call about the opportunity at the Ontario Energy Board to join as Chief Operating Officer. And really, it was about modernizing the regulators. And the value proposition of that was huge. And it was just something I can see, it was exciting to know that that was taking place with someone who's in industry. And I saw some of the work that Susanna was doing. And so it was a no brainer. It was something that I wanted to do. And so I joined the Ontario Energy Board June of 2021. And so I'll bring the regulator perspective, obviously, in the conversation. And the third perspective is that of academia, I've been teaching energy, energy innovation, energy storage courses to Master's students, at the university level. And I think it's important when we talk about energy, we look across borders, we don't just get confined with current practices or policies or rules and regulations. Sometimes when we're trying to explore innovative ideas, we need to broaden that scope. And so I'll look to sometimes also bring in some of the academic view of what's happening in this space, too. So those are sort of three perspectives and from our background.
Dan Seguin 07:22
So, Carolyn, for those that don't know, what is the Ontario Energy Board, and what does your organization do?
Carolyn Calwell 07:33
the Ontario Energy Board, or the OE B is the independent regulator of Ontario's electricity and natural gas sectors. An important part of our mandate is to inform consumers and protect their interests with respect to prices, reliability, and quality of electricity and natural gas services. We have oversight over roughly 60% of the electricity bill, and we influence a large part of natural gas bills. We work closely with companies that work in the sector, distributors, transmitters, generators, and with associations like the Ontario Energy Association, the Electricity Distributors Association, CHEC. And of course, with the Independent Electricity System Operator and the Ministry of Energy, we're really just one piece of a much bigger puzzle.
Dan Seguin 08:13
Harneet, there's been a lot of discussion lately about the energy transition in our industry. What does that mean? Exactly? And how will the Ontario Energy Board support the transition?
Harneet Panesar 08:31
Sure, and maybe I can begin this one by even just focusing on the word energy transition, you know, it sounds nice and clear, cotton sounds like there's a linear glide path to this transition, that's going to happen. But you know, it's multifaceted. It's very complex, huge capital dollars are going to be required, it's gonna be a need for a lot of collaboration and how we move forward on it. So it's a very complex transition that's underway right now. And let me also talk to you about it. From what are some of the drivers, you know, a lot of times we talk about transition, we talk about the innovation behind it. And we also focus on what are the catalysts behind some of this change? And we often frame our conversation using four D's and I know in the industry, there's a debate whether there's three days or five, I think we've taken middle ground here, so let's go with our four D's. So the first one is Decarbonisation. You know, as you look globally, or you look federally you look even down to the consumer level, there are commitments being made and choices that are deliberately being made with regards to emissions and and a goal and targets that are being said with regards to decarbonisation. One of the sectors that I know that's going to be really impacted by this is transportation. They have the ability to make some significant changes in terms of the release of greenhouse gasses, and we're seeing a massive shift from combustion engines to EVs (electric vehicles). And so what does that mean? That means a huge need for electricity to also feed these. And maybe I'll also just take a pause and say that, you know, when I talk to other jurisdictions in Ontario, we're quite fortunate, a lot of our generation here is non-emitting, about over 90% of our generation is not emitting. And sometimes we take that for granted, you know, I talked to some of our colleagues down south, or even across the country, they can only dream to get to where we're at in the near future. We're pretty lucky to be where we are from that perspective. And so when we look at what we need to fuel these vehicles, we're going to need a grid that has the ability to supply this type of demand. So what is the EOB doing about it? There's a couple of things. The first one is we've got a couple of industry working groups that are really helping to lead the charge on making clear decisions on what is the process, you do some of this stuff. One of them is the DER connection review workgroup. And I'm excited to say that, you know, we've, we've broken up this work into tranches, and we've made some substantive releases already on changes that we've proposed to our distribution system code. These are really there to help reduce burdens, and, and really help bring on adoption of things like EVs. And I should also back up and just say, you know, when I talk about DER connections, DER stands for Distributed Energy Resources and EVs fall within that category, too. We also know that the grid will need to be able to supply this power, we have a working group called the Regional Planning Working Group that is focused on making sure that regions have what they need to be able to supply this type of energy. And that includes providing them guidance with what they need to look at when it comes to planning for that future. And how do we fill that all in? Well, we also updated our filing requirements. And so our filing requirements are really there to articulate to applicants that come forward to the Ontario Energy Board with their applications to say, look, this is what we need from you. And we've been pretty clear that we've updated our requirements to include things like electric vehicle integration, adoption, into their load forecasting and planning, we need to make sure that utilities are putting the building for the load that's required, based on the Evie adoption in the province. The next D is Digitalization. No, back in the day, our distribution system was just poles and wires, and maybe some fuses. But it's become a lot more complicated. We've deployed a lot more grid modernization in the system, a lot more innovation, and a lot more non-wires, alternatives, and different ways of investing in solving problems that the grid was having. And so what role does the Ontario Energy Board have in that? Well, number one, prudency is something that we expect utilities to take into account when they're building out their investment plans. So we're to check for prudency and make sure that the liability service quality and cost is all kept in mind. The other aspect is, you know, as we digitize the system, there are other risks that come with it, and we need to make sure we're managing them. There are new risk factors that get created from a cybersecurity perspective. And obviously, the Ontario Energy Board plays an important role. You know, we established the Cybersecurity Advisory Committee a number of years back that helped build Ontario's cybersecurity framework, which is something we expect utilities to look at, and also report annually on how they are ready and mature to respond to detect and deal with cybersecurity threats. The last two days, and maybe I'll just kind of shorten this by bringing them together. It's around decentralization and democratization. But the role of consumers is changing. And the investments and the choices that they're making are also changing. You know, the fact that you can go to a shopping mall and go pick up an Eevee, and maybe even a battery pack. These are, by definition, consumer products. Now, they're no longer utility grade investments, like Pull Top investments, switch gears, things like that, the role that they're playing is important. And so going back to our DER. Working Group, it's important that we make sure that we look at the integration of these types of consumer choices into our grid. So that's, that's maybe a roundabout way of looking at all of our structures and the innovation that's taking place and the catalysts that are fueling the energy transition there.
Dan Seguin 13:53
Carolyn, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you believe is driving the energy transition.
Carolyn Calwell 14:00
Thanks, Dan. I see this largely the same way Harneet sees it, but I would say it maybe a little bit differently. I agree that the four Ds are the catalyst for the energy transition decarbonisation and the move to net zero emissions, the need to deal with and respond to climate change. Digitalization in my mind reflects the growing internet of things and the need for new tools and technologies that allow us to use energy differently. We've talked about decentralization and Harneet mentioned the move away from grid scale, utility planning to decentralized resources, whatever technology or weather wherever they may sit on this system. And her need also mentioned democratization about the changing expectations of customers and their relationship with energy. And in my mind, that just leads to increasing customer choice. So, you know, I think there's tremendous opportunity in all of this, and of course, tremendous challenge. But I think what's exciting is that there's broad consensus that this is a time of extreme change, and there's an imperative to actually make that change. So at the end of the day, it's pretty exciting.
Dan Seguin 15:05
Okay, our need, what does the electric future look like from an industry perspective, and from a customer perspective?
Harneet Panesar 15:15
So let me first look at the customer perspective. And maybe even the term customer, I think, is looking to evolve. As we look at energy markets around the world, we know that consumer choices and how consumers interact with their energy is changing. And even the role of consumers is changing. You know, the term prosumer is also one that is often used in which consumers aren't just consuming power, but they're producing them. And so therefore, the Pro and the prosumer. You know, that's an important aspect of how the grid may evolve. And we're certainly seeing changes in perspective, talked about decarbonisation, just a few minutes ago, that will also create a higher dependency of reliable power while managing costs. So you know, going back to our discussion around EVs, you know, nowadays, if there are reliability issues, utilities will get phone calls. And you know, that hear about power, power off situations where the lights aren't working, or ice cream is melting, or the air conditioner just isn't going. But just imagine the dependency that gets created when you know, I've got to go to work the next morning, and I couldn't go because I couldn't charge my vehicle, you know, the dependency on the grid is gonna grow. But I think there are a lot of opportunities in this type of environment. Also, you know, if Carolyn, for example, is working from home and doesn't need her vehicle, well, maybe I can take 20% of her battery, and then perhaps you're on vacation, and maybe you don't need part of your vehicle, I could maybe take 30% of your battery, you know, I've got 50% of the charge. And now I've got an opportunity to actually use my vehicle. The shifting of how sort of load and suppliers is going to be looked at on the distribution side, I think is exciting. We're seeing a lot of these micro grids around the world interact on these sort of transactive markets. But at the end of the day, you know, the value proposition for consumers is shifting look, I've now got a vehicle that has charge and lets me get to where I need to go. And both you and Carolyn have now gotten some dollars in your pockets for helping me out by supplying some of the energy that you didn't need. This is a real shift. I think that's happening from the consumer perspective and multiple different facets. From the industry perspective, I think we're going to need a lot of help and dependencies on industry to help guide us through this energy transition, you know, there's a lot of capital that is going to need to be spent, there's going to be a lot of steel that's going to be required for Transformers or pole tops, and, and even steel towers and conductors, there's a lot that's going to be required from a supply chain perspective. But there's also growth, I mean, this is an opportunity, there's a lot of growth that's going to take place in the economy for jobs. And we also know that there's gonna be industry in terms of labor markets, to be able to help supply and build the infrastructure that we're going to need for the future. And that includes maybe in adapting some of the skill sets. And I've been speaking to colleges and universities over the last year, and they've been asking, you know: what does the energy industry need in terms of the skills or the shortages? Is there an evolution of the skills that are required, and with all the transition and change that are taking place? I think the labor markets are also important to us to make sure that they're up to speed with helping us get to where we need to be. I think the last aspect maybe I'll cover off in terms of the industry is, I think there's a lot of new players that are entering the energy market, which we haven't seen traditionally, in the past. I've talked about automotive manufacturers moving away from combustion engines to electric vehicles. I think they're going even further by opening up subsidiaries focusing on energy. It's a pretty bold move for the automotive industry to be forming these massive subsidiaries. But even on the technology side, you know, we're seeing companies like Microsoft take stronger and larger positions within energy. So I think we're seeing a shift. And even in industry, I think we're seeing a lot of new players that are joining in.
Dan Seguin 18:52
Okay, so what's the greatest risk to the electricity grid, Harneet?
Harneet Panesar 18:57
So when I think about risk, and you know, I often reflect on that word, because I think when you look at risk, it usually is a reason for why adoption of things like innovation just gets repeated. And even in the energy industry, we've got a wide variety of entities that have different risk appetites. And some of them, you know, stakeholders, shareholders, customers may not be looking to them to take the greatest risk. But what we do know is that there are entities that thrive on the risk reward model. And I think it's important that we look at risk blending, we talk about risk. And why do I bring this all up? The need for collaboration is so important when we talk about moving forward in this transition. You know, in Ontario, I'd say we've got the most complex energy market in North America. I've got 800 Almost licensed entities, and I've got 60 local distribution companies fairly complex that's on the electricity. And we've also got gas distributors. It's fairly complex. So in terms of what is the one of the greatest risks I think alignment and how we move forward. The risk in this would be misalignment. You know, there's no room to backpedal, we need to collaborate and work together and make sure that there's no room to backpedal, and that we move forward collaboratively. So misalignment, I think, could be a risk, but we're making sure we're doing whatever we can. And I know there's various entities within the energy sector that are trying to make sure we're working together, you know, we're holding hands and might be taking penguin steps to make sure we don't slip here. But I think when you hold hands, we'll get a bit more firmness. And we can take bigger, bigger steps forward.
Dan Seguin 20:33
Harneet, what kinds of major investments and other considerations need to be made to deliver the energy transition to the province?
Harneet Panesar 20:43
So when I look at some of the studies that have just recently passed, the IESO released their Pathway studies. And we know that when they looked at generation and transmission, it's gonna require hundreds of billions of dollars, some fairly substantial investments on that front, the other side to this whole thing, and going back to the sort of consumer side is, you know, the tail end of the delivery of power is also going to require a huge influx of dollars. So the distribution system is going to require a lot, I will say that, you know, within our province, you know, we've got a lot of aging infrastructure that we also need to deal with. So it's not just about the forward move around the energy transition, but we also need to look at the assets that we have, the age of them, the condition of them, and really make sure that as we're spending the money, we're still holding things up. While we're also moving forward. You know, there's a lot of advancements in the system, in terms of the dollars that we've spent on the distribution system, primarily, I'd say, on deployment of capital open fields. But we're also seeing a lot of shifts on how some of that technology is now being utilized out into distribution systems. I know that, you know, we talked about dependency on the system. The minister has also asked us as part of his letter of direction to us to help provide recommendations going forward on resiliency and responsiveness and cost efficiency. And I think that's an important consideration that we need to look at when we build out capital plans and look at how we're going to build out the future. Extreme weather events are impacting our grid and energy system, the infrastructure, so the energy systems are vulnerable to that. And we need to make sure that we're resilient and we're able to respond to things like that. And lastly, you know, the other aspect around a lot of the investments that we just talked about, again, is around cybersecurity and the importance of making sure that we're ready for any of those types of issues too.
Dan Seguin 22:28
Carolyn, I read that the Ontario Energy Board's new legislated mandate is to facilitate innovation in the energy sector. How will you do that?
Carolyn Calwell 22:41
A mandate to facilitate innovation with regard to electricity was added to our legislative objectives in 2020. And this put innovation squarely in the mix for us. I thought it signaled to the energy sector a need to take new approaches to doing business, and to think about the services they provide to customers. And it signaled to the OEB that we also need to think about new approaches and new ways to do business. And so we've tried to do that through programs like our innovation sandbox, where we've encouraged local distribution companies to come to us with ideas about how they want to make change, and to test those ideas out in a safe regulatory environment where we can talk through the barriers and hurdles that they face or that they perceive to see what what really stands in their way. We've tried to do this through work like ours in our framework for energy innovation, where we asked the sector to come together to talk about distributed energy resources and how we go about dealing with the questions that they pose. What does it mean for utilities to use them? What barriers are there? So we've tried to take new approaches to having conversations about different types of innovation, and to encourage others to come to us to talk about these things. The change to our objective occurred at the same time as a restructuring of the governance of the OEB. And I think that really underscored for us our change mandate. But when we talk about innovation, our Chief Commissioner would remind me, very wisely Anderson, that our objective has always existed in balance. So innovation is never our only driver. It's one of several others, which include informing consumers and protecting their interests, promoting economic efficiency and cost effectiveness across the sector, and promoting electricity conservation and demand management. So there's a lot going on for us and for everyone in the sector in addition to innovation.
Dan Seguin 24:36
Okay, now, let's talk about the Innovation Task Force. With the report now released, where does it all go from here? Can regulation and innovation coexist and even flourish?
Carolyn Calwell 24:53
I think regulation and innovation have to coexist. We've been talking about change a lot this afternoon. I I don't think we have any choice. But to innovate. Our innovation task force was about strategy and governance, and this was an initiative by our board of directors to ask about disruptive change in the sector and its implications. And to make sure that the OEB was positioned to prepare for that change. The work involved jurisdictional scanning, looking at broad disruptive technologies and trends across the globe, and to look at what other regulators were doing about it. And that certainly provided inspiration for us. And at the same time, we curated experts working at global national and provincial levels to help us understand disruption in the sector, what they were seeing and what they were working on. So all of that informed the strategy that our Innovation Task Force adopted. And what we're trying to do with that is now map out what the OEB is doing about the energy transition. We've got a lot of projects and go and a lot of things that touch the energy transition, but don't necessarily do that directly. People need to understand how those fit together, and how they actually get at the big policy question of the day. What are we doing about climate change and about the energy transition? So what we've tried to do through our engagement with our website is map out the different projects, how they come together, and what people can expect about where they're going. If listeners haven't checked it out, I really encourage you to look at the OED "Engage with us" web page and see all that we have going on and what the next steps are across these projects. There's no shortage of work here. And we're asking a lot of people to come together to meet with us and try to make it work.
Dan Seguin 26:33
Harneet, on the topic of electric vehicles (EVs), what about supporting mass EV adoption? What can you tell us about the proposed ultra low overnight price plan for electricity? And how will it help get more EVs on the road?
Harneet Panesar 26:52
Sure. Thanks, Dan. And when we look at things like ultra low overnight price plans, I think it's also important for us to reflect on the fact that I think I'm sure he's made some good choices in terms of deploying the right capital. Over the years, you know, we sometimes take for granted that we have what is known as AMI, which is Advanced Meter Infrastructure. The fact that we have smart meters deployed across the province, is huge, because it enables us to do things like these price plans. You know, I talked about other jurisdictions, not everyone has smart meters like we do, and therefore don't have the ability to actually even implement price plans. But let me tell you why it's important and why having some of these plans is helpful. Utilities often build to meet peak demand, whenever the demand is there, they're trying to make sure that they have the infrastructure required to meet it. And by introducing pricing plans, which create the right incentives and choices that can help leave to sort of behavioral changes from a consumer perspective, that will ultimately also help utilities manage how they build their system. And what that means is they'll be able to not just build the peak but better manage peaks. You know, if we're able to utilize the system when it's not at peak or it's not fully utilized, there's available capacity generation available. There's no bottlenecks in the system. That's when we want people to use power. And so generally, you know, overnight is when the system is a little bit quieter, and we're able to actually, you know, supply a lot more power. And so for folks like myself, who have an electric vehicle, you know, I have no problems charging overnight. In fact, it's fantastic. And having the right incentives to keep people charging overnight means that we take any additional peaks on the system during the day that might occur away. And ultimately, that also means that it helps keep rates lower, because utilities don't need to invest additional capacity, because they're better able to manage when people are consuming their power. So price plans like the ultra low overnight plan is one way of curbing the behavior and incentivizing sort of the right approach on when we want people to be using the grid to feed things like their electric vehicles.
Dan Seguin 29:03
Okay, now, how does natural gas fit into the energy transition to a carbon free future in the province? What strides are being made in the natural gas sector or Harneet?
Harneet Panesar 29:18
So I think it's an important question. And it's something that we think about quite often at the Ontario Energy Board. You know, natural gas has a lot of potential to replace some of the higher emitting fossil fuel energy sources that are still being used for mostly industrial processes here in Ontario. And to maybe give you an example, you know, one of our natural gas distributors is working with steel mills, to try and replace some of their coal usage with natural gas, which would also bring down some of their greenhouse gas emissions. But you know, when you talk about Net Zero and sort of the net zero future, it's obviously going to involve things like large reductions and even eventually eliminating the GHG emissions from the US to greenhouse gasses, and that's gonna require a couple of things. It's gonna require a combination of energy conservation, some electrification, carbon capture and storage, and even a shift to use things like orangey, which is renewable natural gas, and even other new fuels like hydrogen. There's already work that's underway. Enbridge has been investing about $120 million a year. And this is really around some of the conservation programs. And we also just had a recent decision that the will be rendered. And in that we're going to increase the amounts that are going to be spent. And this is also going to include a new home energy efficiency program that's going to be offered by Enbridge gas, and it's going to be in partnership with Enercon, which is Natural Resources Canada, you know, thinking about what are the next steps, the OEB has also convened a group of experts to help identify and evaluate future opportunities for natural gas conservation. And really, finally, I just want to make sure, I know, acknowledge that, you know, millions of residential, commercial industrial consumers, we've got three and a half million gas consumers who depend on natural gas to heat their homes and run their businesses. And the OEB is going to continue to support these consumers by ensuring natural gas is delivered to them safely, reliably and responsibly.
Dan Seguin 31:14
Okay, again, this one's for you Harneet. Ontario is Canada's most populated province, can you tell us a bit about how you ensure Ontarian voices are heard, and included in your decision making?
Harneet Panesar 31:30
Yeah, so we've got 5 million electricity consumers I just mentioned, we've got three and a half natural gas consumers. So we've got a fairly large consumer base. And it's really important that we hear what Ontarians have to say. And so we've done a couple of things. And let me run you through them. The first one Carolyn, alluded to earlier, which was around making sure people could engage with us, we actually opened up a new platform and launched it, and it's called engage with us. And if you ever wanted to join it, just Google, we'd be engaged with us. And it really lays out all the various initiatives and work streams and programs that the Ontario Energy Board is undertaking. It gives timelines, it has documents, it even has a friendly smile of some of our staff that are helping lead the work along with their emails, so you can contact and reach out to us, it's one way of us making sure that we're transparent about all the work we're doing. And we're engaging with tumors, and taking in any input that they may have. So that's one way the other, the other piece that I think is really important is listening to the customers themselves. About a year ago, just shortly after I joined the Ontario Energy Board, I started a program called voice of the customer. And it was an important program for me, because one of the one of the teams that I have within my shop is responsible for the call center, they take in the calls, the emails, and the chats. And it's one thing to see all that data on a dashboard, or you know, in a PowerPoint slide deck, it's another thing to actually get on the horn and actually hear the voices of consumers, understand their sentiment, hear the emotion, hear their voices. And it was really important for me to be able to do that. And so we set up this program, and it's a monthly occurrence in which myself and my peers, the executive team, we get on the call, and we hear the voice of the customers, we hear what they're saying to us. And so that's one other way that we connect with our consumers. The other thing I'll note is that, you know, our adjudication process is a public process. And, you know, we look forward to having Ontarians participate in that we do also have consumer interest groups, part of that. But we also look to utilities to make sure that as they're building out their plans, that they're engaging with consumers, they also have a role to engage with them and make sure that they're delivering what consumers want. I'll also just put in a bit of a plug that, you know, I talked a little bit about our call center that handles the calls and emails and chats, we get almost 10,000 interactions. And these are really important data points for us. And you know, I created a part of the organization about a year ago called Operation Decision Support, to really help us make data driven decisions. And so collecting information from our calls is very vital. But the point I want to make is that we also have a chat function, which also won an award about a year, year and a half ago. And it's not fed by robots. It's actually the same agents that would also pick up your calls and also respond to emails. So the message you get is very aligned and consistent. We're very proud of, you know, our ways of being able to communicate with our consumers.
Harneet Panesar 34:19
Okay, now it's your turn, Carolyn, let's talk about the OEB's two stakeholder committees. What are the energy exchange and adjudication of the modernization committee all about?
Carolyn Calwell 34:34
Our stakeholders are critical to us. And so we've made some deliberate efforts to create structures to engage them. Energy Exchange is a form of CEOs and senior leaders. And it's really a tremendous platform where we receive advice about our priorities and direction. We've tried to use that forum, not just to talk to people but to hear from and to engage them on questions. Is that we're struggling with? What should we focus on? How should we go about our work? What matters to them, because it's important that the regulator, not just tell everybody what to do, but also listen to the sector that we work in. So this advice has been really critical for us. And it's really helped us on work, for instance, around the letter of direction that we received from the minister, as we've tried to figure out how to unpack that letter, to figure out what the priorities are within it, and how to actually deliver against it. The adjudication modernization committee is made up of regulatory experts, and they give us advice and provide feedback on all things that you indicate from rules of practice and procedure and filing requirements, to advice about intervenors. This has a specific focus to consider best practices and approaches to adjudication. And what's particularly helpful I think about this group is that they have a direct line with the Chief Commissioner. So it's a way for her to talk to stakeholders, and hear about what matters to them on what happens in the hearing room, and everything that goes around. So these are just two examples of how we engage with our stakeholders. But we value tremendously the various working groups, forums, meetings that we call that people participate in, because we know we ask a lot of people we know we demand a lot of their time and a lot of their thinking. But this is all part of the communication that we need on the two way street, so to speak. And, and we really do value everything that people give us in these various forms.
Dan Seguin 36:31
SoI'll ask you both. What is Ontario doing right, right now, that gives you hope, either provincially, or from the energy sector itself?
Carolyn Calwell 36:47
I'll jump in on though, you know, we've spent the afternoon talking about some of the challenges that the energy sector faces and that, you know, that really society faces. And these are big, big challenges, daunting tasks ahead of us. But what gives me hope is that there are some tremendously smart people in our sector and a real commitment to work together. So we're all in this together, we all have a role to play. And I truly believe that we'll make progress.
Harneet Panesar 37:19
Well, I totally agree with Carolyn. I mean, you know, this notion of collaboration coming together and working together, I think we're doing a lot of things right. From that perspective, even this podcast, you know, being here and talking to you and connecting with your listeners, hopefully, that brings a bit of a circle back to us and people reaching back out to us, we need to, you know, no one can be operating in a black box, you need to collaborate and work together. The only other thing, maybe I'll say, in terms of what we're doing what we're doing, right, and I'm going to put on my proud Canadian engineering hat on here and say, look, we've been pioneers in the energy space for decades, you know, when it came to hydroelectric generation in southern Ontario, to even the CANDU nuclear reactors, I think Canadians have been doing a lot to pioneer push the energy sector forward. And you know, advancements and technologies even like SMRs, I think is, is a proud moment for Canadians and leading the charge and how energy is now sort of delivered, you know, bringing energy sources closer to where they're being consumed. And these are game changing types of investments and technologies that, you know, Ontario is making. So definitely a lot of things, things of pride. And I think a lot of things that we're doing right, Dan,
Dan Seguin 38:23
Carolyn, and Harneet, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?
Carolyn Calwell 38:33
Ready to go.
Dan Seguin 38:36
Harneet, maybe you could start us off by telling us what you're reading right now?
Harneet Panesar 38:42
Okay, well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that every night I read Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig for bedtime. That's not my bedtime at someone else's bedtime. But in terms of myself when I put my feet up. Now I just picked up a book. It's not new on the shelf. It's just new to me. I haven't had a chance to really go through it, but it's a book by Rupi Kaur or R-u-p-i, last names core K-A-u-R. And it's a political novel and the book is called The Sun and Her Flowers.
Dan Seguin 39:09
Okay,what about you, Carolyn?
Carolyn Calwell 39:11
I'm reading some essays from MFK. Fisher in the Art of Eating. It's fantastic. Very funny.
Dan Seguin 39:19
Okay, Carolyn, who is someone that you truly admire?
Carolyn Calwell 39:24
Retired Chief Justice Beverley McLaughlin has to top my list.
Dan Seguin 39:27
And what about you, Harneet? Who do you truly admire?
Harneet Panesar 39:32
I would say it would be my 99 year old grandfather, who was a retired Air Force engineer from the Royal Indian Air Force who lived a very colorful life full of incredible stories and journeys. And as always a source of inspiration for me.
Dan Seguin 39:51
Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite movies or shows?
40:01
For me, Madness is coming up. So my TV is dedicated to women's NCAA basketball.
40:08
I'm a bit of a foodie. And I have a bit of a travel bug. So I like traveling and eating. And so there's a series called Somebody Feed Phil, which brings sort of traveling and food together and a little bit of comedy. So it's a nice casual watch. So we've been watching a lot of that.
Dan Seguin 40:23
Lastly, Harneet, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Harneet Panesar 40:30
For me, it's changed. And, you know, maybe I'm a creature of change. It's sort of where I thrive. But it's exciting to see us move forward and in the directions we are in. So for me, change is really what's exciting. I'm proud to be part of it. I'm looking forward to what the future brings with it.
Dan Seguin 40:50
Okay, what about you, Carolyn, what's exciting you?
Carolyn Calwell 40:54
I couldn't agree with Harneet more, change is exciting. I think there's a tremendous opportunity ahead of us. I think we're gonna see the world shift, and I'm eager to be part of it.
Dan Seguin 41:04
Well, Carolyn, and Harneet. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The Think Energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Carolyn Calwell 41:20
They can find us on LinkedIn or at OEB.ca. And we're eager to hear from everybody.
Dan Seguin 41:28
Again, thank you both so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Carolyn Calwell 41:34
Thank you so much for having us.
Dan Seguin 41:38
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Trees play an important role in carbon sequestration, slowing the rise of greenhouse gas emissions as they grow. But during extreme weather, trees can bring down power lines, damage equipment, ignite fires, and cause power outages. They add a layer of complexity to maintaining a resilient power grid. In thinkenergy episode 107, Hydro Ottawa’s Nick Levac, Supervisor of Distribution Operations, and Greg Tipman, Forestry Inspector, discuss how to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban forest.
Related links
Nick Levac, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/
Greg Tipman, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-tipman-b5bb73a1/
Hydro Ottawa Tree Planting Advice [PDF]: https://static.hydroottawa.com/documents/publications/safety/tree_planting_advice-EN.pdf
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. While local and global efforts focus on achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 through the electrification, or transformation of certain industries, it is also important to consider the significant role natural climate solutions can play in greening communities. Warren Buffett famously said, someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Trees make our world a beautiful place and provide us with many lasting benefits, such as shade, privacy, shelter, and food, and they contribute to our mental well being. Aside from those benefits, trees play an important role in carbon reduction, slowing the rise of GHG emissions as they grow. But if you know anything about electricity, you know that electricity and trees seldom mix. That doesn't mean they can't be good neighbors though. Across the City of Ottawa, there are an estimated 185,000 trees in proximity to Hydro Ottawa was 2800 kilometers of overhead high voltage power lines. When trees are close enough to potentially contact overhead power lines, public safety and the uninterrupted supply of electricity can be compromised. Utilities have a responsibility to ensure its electricity distribution system is safe, and that it operates reliably. Because of that, they must also ensure that their equipment can withstand extreme weather events such as high winds, and heavy snow falls and ice. broken tree branches can bring down power lines and create serious public safety concerns like damaged equipment fires and power outages. All of which can be a frustrating and costly experience for both the utility company and customers. In an urban area, the presence of trees adds an additional layer of complexity to the challenge of maintaining reliable and resilient power grids. Finding a way to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban tree canopy is an important goal for urban planners and utility companies. Through a combination of strategic tree planting, pruning and maintenance, as well as the use of technology and innovative solutions. It's possible to strike a balance between these two important priorities, ensuring that the city remains livable, and sustainable for years to come. Responsible tree trimming and maintenance has resulted in reducing power outages by 40%. In Ottawa alone, with extreme weather events we've witnessed in the past few years, and as the climate continues to change, the outcome will create more problems for utilities to provide reliable power to customers without extended outages. So here is today's big question. In the age of climate change and environmental responsibility, how can utility companies strike a balance between maintaining reliable service, minimizing outages and maintaining a healthy and vibrant urban forest? To help us better understand this balancing act? I've invited Nick Novak, who's the supervisor of distribution operations, and a forestry inspector Greg Tipmann. Welcome both. Greg, I'll start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your work? And what the biggest misconceptions are about tree trimming and vegetation control programs when it comes to electricity?
Greg Tipman 04:49
For sure, Dan, and just just again, thanks for having us on your podcast this morning. Getting the kind of meat potatoes my daily job encompasses: speaking with customers, addressing the vegetation concerns around power lines, auditing the contractor we use, which is Aspen tree service. There's also coordinating our jobs, our time and material jobs. So it's stuff that I look at and deal with the customer then gets delegated directly to a secondary crew to do that specific work for the customer. There's also writing of prescriptions for any work for other jobs for the customers. So specific work they want hydro Ottawa to do that's outside of our regular trim program. Some of the biggest misconceptions that I've run into is that a lot of the public thinks that our tree work is just a hack and slash that there's no thought or science put into the tree trimming that's actually going on, when, in actuality, we have a whole set of standards for proper pruning, and tree trimming of the species around the Hydra wires. And that kicks back to our working procedures or our lifeline clearing techniques. And then there's another misconception that I've run into quite a bit is that a lot of people think that for us, or for our contractor to do the tree trimming, the power has to be shut off every single time. And that's, that's not the case. We like to keep it as a very rare scenario when we do have to shut the power off. And that's usually just for a safety issue for the tree trimmers.
Dan Seguin 06:38
Okay, cool, Nick. We often say that trees and electrical wires don't mix. What types of dangerous situations can occur if they come in contact with one another? Is there a recent example you can share with us?
Nick Levac 06:58
Yeah, so I mean, first first, and mine is obviously power outages. That's kind of the first thing that we hear about when a tree comes down on our conductors. But, you know, the power outages can vary from, you know, a whole circuit right back to a substation to just localized outages in your community or along your streets. The other thing, if the tree does come down on the line, and they're in our system doesn't doesn't experience an outage, oftentimes, trees can catch on fire. So we've had, we've had examples over the years where trees are resting on a line, nobody notices it, and then eventually it'll catch on fire, which obviously can cause other issues. And especially in the summertime with dry conditions. If that does come down to the ground, it could, you know, start forest fires, which, unfortunately, our neighbors in the south and us have experienced in California and stuff. So but there was there was one larger outage and I think it was a start in November November 2, whereas a spruce tree that was quite a bit away from the line did fail, and it came down and took down to two conductors out at the end of my road, I believe it was and it caused a large outage. We were in a sense, those are almost better to have, because it's easier to find that tree and where the problem is. And we can get crews out to fix it in a quick manner. But that's probably the most recent one that we've had that had a major outage and a big impact to our system.
Dan Seguin 08:32
So we're clear, Nick, what are the guidelines that determine if tree trimming or vegetation management near powerlines is required? What does sufficient clearance from an electrical equipment look like?
Nick Levac 08:46
Yeah, so like Greg mentioned in the first question there we have our rivers going through our system, and we're looking at at standards that we trim to the cities divided up into about 30 vegetation management zones. And they're divided into either a two or three year trim cycle, which means you'll see our versus your backyard, you're on the streets, trimming out to our guidelines, either every second year, third year. Our main goal, there's a couple of them. But our main goal when we're trimming to our standards that we have, is when we come back and either in two or three years, the vegetation that we trimmed out is still three feet away. There's different zones that we have from 10 feet back to the conductor or the live overhead wire, and from the wire out to three feet is called the restricted zone. And as I mentioned that that's where we do not want the vegetation to get into because if we if it does get in there creates a bunch of different problems for our for our tree arborist to go in there. And as Greg mentioned, outages is the last thing we want to do when we're trimming trees. And if that veg does get into that restricted zone, increased outages for trimming sometimes An option that we have to look at what we're trying to avoid. So that's, that's kind of our main goal. We look at the species a tree, and how much it would grow in a year. And as the arborist comes through, they're going to trim back that many feet. So if we have a fast growing species that grows a three or four feet a year, and we're going to be back in two years, we're going to trim that back three feet times two, plus the additional three feet. So we're looking at about a 10 foot trim on that.
Dan Seguin 10:29
Nick, pruning, and especially removal of interfering trees often caused controversy. In an age of climate change and environmental responsibility. What do you tell folks that object to or have concerns about the important work you do to help keep the lights on entry safe?
Nick Levac 10:53
Yeah, that's a great question. We, you know, our I think you hit the last word there, and your question kind of hits on our main goal of everything that we do here at Hydro is safety. So, not only are we looking out for the publics safety, ensuring that trees are coming down on the line and staying energized. But we're also looking out for worker safety. So as we're going through, we tried to do preventative maintenance, so to speak. So very much like you get your oil changed in a car, or you put your winter tires on this time of year, we're trying to trim trees away from the lines to make sure they don't come in contact that avoids outages, unplanned outages, especially because, you know, it's one thing to get a phone call to say, Hey, your power is going to be out because we're doing preventative maintenance, whether it's tree trimming, or upgrading the electrical system. It's another thing to wake up at two o'clock in the morning after like, so the heat off and everything and it's unexpected, and you're trying to get your kids ready, you're at home or whatever. So preventative maintenance is the big thing. And we try to educate our customers that what we're doing out there is really just to make sure that we can decrease outages and especially those unplanned outages. The other thing that we look at when we're pruning trees is the tree health. And I know Greg's gonna get into this, I think a little bit later on. But just looking at the species of a tree and how we trimmed them to make sure that the health of the tree is also a huge interest for our births that are up there. They're all certified trained arborists, with some extra training on the electrical side, because obviously, we're trimming around live electrical lines. But when they get up into a tree, they're looking at the health of the tree. There's a lot of stuff once they get up into the canopy of the tree that they noticed that you can't see from the ground. So they're taking into account and they're taking out any Deadwood or anything in there and and try to not only like I mentioned before getting those clearances that we need for the electrical side, but also trying to enhance the tree growth away from our lines and lucky that the health of the tree, but take any dead wood or anything out of it.
Dan Seguin 12:55
So back to you, Greg, I know you trim trees on public property that are within three meters of an overhead line. But what about on private property? trees near utility lines inherently carry serious risk to property owners who may be injured or even killed when working near powerlines? What are homeowners responsible for? And when should they call the utility to arrange for their help? Like a planned outage? Basically, what do homeowners need to know?
Greg Tipman 13:33
Yeah, Dan, so when you're speaking about the kind of responsibilities on vegetation maintenance, Hydro Ottawa is responsible for the pole the pole wire vegetation maintenance. The area around the high voltage wire that Hydro trims is part of our responsibility is 10 feet for the primary which is usually the very top wire running pole, as well as about a three foot clearance around our low voltage or secondary wires. And again, that's the pole, the pole wires. Just I want to make that bold statement. That's Hydros responsibility as part of our maintenance package. Kind of like Nick was touching up on and that that happens pending what grid what year, you know, two to three years Central, within kind of the city core versus the outer rural areas. If a customer is looking to have work done on their tree which is growing out of their private property, and it's near our overhead wires, hydro comes in free charge we get it clear 10 feet 10 feet back, debris would stay on site, and then it would be the homeowners responsibility to either cut the tree down themselves hire private tree contractor or if they wanted, they could also hire hydro Ottawa, do our work for others program and we would write them out a full And we'll treat quote, and they would, they would pay an additional cost for that work that's outside of our regular maintenance scope. Now in regards to the, the wires running pole to house service wire, or if you're in a rural area, and it's a private primary wire, there's a couple options that they have for having those what those wires that vegetation trimmed out, they can either hire a private tree contractor, and hydro Ottawa, our service department provides one free disconnect a year for any tree work a little bit more legwork for the customer or the contractor to do, but it's an entirely viable option. The second option is they can again hire hydro, to trim out their service wire, to whatever specs we normally recommend. It's a low voltage secondary wire, to have about a three foot clearance on it, they want us to go with that option. I myself would write them out a formal tree, quote, and have all the details. proof of payment forehand would be had. And then we would schedule the customer an exact date. And they would essentially have the work done to what the quote was that they're paying for the work to be done and, and go from there. It's quite effective. We've gotten a lot of feedback from the customers about having their service wire trimmed down and there's been a lot of good things to have come from having us on site. And just doing it all, not having to worry about them having to organize an outage on their house. So it's, it's been a good go.
Dan Seguin 16:39
Here's another question for you, Greg. When planting a young sapling, it's often difficult to imagine that in a few years, like 10 years, it could have a significant impact on the landscape with an expanding canopy. As a homeowner, or a landscaper, if you are planting a new tree, how important is it to contact your utility service provider to discuss your plans? Do you have any tree planting advice? Or some good resources on what to plant and where?
Greg Tipman 17:18
Yes, yes. So basically, Hydro Ottawa has a really good source on our internet page. Basically, just type in Google out "Hydro Ottawa tree planting advice," and it'll take you right to a pamphlet that's been put on the internet. And it has everything for suggestions of where the tree should be planted, what type of species is it? How tall will it grow? How wide will the canopy grow? How many feet back from an overhead wire should be planted? It has a breakdown of species names. What soils are their best to be planted in? You know, like I said, they're their typical growth structure in relation to overhead wires. And there's also advice given on planting around underground wires, which a lot of people you know, you don't see them, you don't really think they're there. But most people just see the green box, the ground transformer, if you will. But where are the wires going? What? Which way? Can I plant and whatnot. So it's a really great resource that has a lot of information, a lot of diagrams. Definitely check it out. And then another great option would be just put a call in have myself or Nick show up. And, you know, we can tell you, you know, basically where the what, what's the lay of the land? What is your yard showing you? You know, are there other trees in the neighborhood or in your yard? You can get a very good look just from seeing what's out there, what to expect. And then and then go from there.
Dan Seguin 19:08
Okay, Nick, this next question might be in your wheelhouse. A power outage occurs when there's direct contact between two conducting lines face to face, or by providing a path for electricity to travel to the ground. There are several other ways that vegetation trees in particular, can cause power outages, wondering if you could expand on the causes and how utilities and folks in your profession mitigate that.
Nick Levac 19:40
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's obviously something we look at all the time. And that's our biggest goal within our department is to mitigate those outages and I actually came from a background in the lines department as a power line maintainer for 10 years and then and swung over and got into working with the veg management program. And, you know, I'd say it's a really good partnership that we have right now, not only with Greg and our other utility forestry inspectors, but along with our contractor Aspen who's doing the work for us. And, you know, that's a constant conversation that we're having week in, week out. And not only are we reviewing any outages that might have occurred the week before and trying to follow up on those to see why those power outages occurred and how we can hopefully prevent them from reoccurring. But within the system itself, the electrical system, we have, it's very much like your house where it's set up where we have different circuits all the way through the city. And within each circuit, we have different fusing, the further you get away from the substation. So the fusion coordination can really help out if you have a tree that falls at the very end of that circuit. We have the fusion set up in a way that it's only going to go back to the next device downstream. And if everything is working properly, that fuse will open up and it'll really shrink the size of that outage rather than going all the way back to the substation. So if you can imagine if you have 1000 customers on a circuit, and you had 10, different fuses all the way down, and that last one blows, you're gonna only affect 100 people instead of 1000 people. Also, within our system, we have devices called reclosers. So I'm sure many, many, many listeners have had their lights flicker on and off two or three times. And then unfortunately, after that third flicker, the power does stay off permanently. That means that there's a bigger issue on the line and that reclosure could self clear. So those devices are there. For momentary outages, when they see a spike in amperage, they'll open up the circuit, and give time for that tree or whatever that foreign interference is to clear itself. And then close back in with the hopes that once it closes back in that that power will stay on. If it senses that it's still there, it'll open back up again. Hopefully allow it to clear a little bit longer closed back in again, and hopefully the second time's a charm. Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't work. And then you experienced that outage, the last kind of protection in the whole stream protection devices is that circuit breaker back at the station. That's kind of the worst case if we see a circuit open up. That means that there's a major problem. Usually, like you mentioned there, there's a face to face kind of issue where two conductors have slapped together. And that's kind of what causes the biggest outage, that's when we know we have a large problem. And the other issue with that is because our circuits are so long, some of them are you know, in the downtown core where we have more substations, it's a little bit easier to find because you know, the circuit might only be say a kilometer or two long, but if you get out into the rural Orleans, Kanata, down south though Manotick, Nepean you can have, you know, 10-15-20 kilometers a line. So if your circuit breaker and your station opens up, that means that somewhere between your station at the end of the line is your problem. So their fault indicators and stuff on your line that can help pinpoint it. But it definitely can make it more challenging when you're starting back at your substation now having to patrol 2020 kilometers a line versus if that fuse opens at the very end of your line you okay, it's the last section within that line. The other thing that can really help us out is the customers in the field. So a lot of times we'll get calls in and it's great to get that information and Hyderabad was very active on social media and that that definitely helps if, if a customer sees a problem if they see a line down if they see a bright blue flash if they hear alert, loud bang, you know, first and foremost, let us know don't ever approach down wire stay away even trees that could be leaning up against a wire. And I mentioned this before just because the trees against the wire if that wire still energizes that could potentially energize that tree. So we want to make sure we stay back, you know, stay back 10 meters from that tree, stay back 10 meters from that electrical line because you don't know if it's on or if it's still alive. So your safety is first and foremost, call 911. If there's any you know, immediate hazard fire police can come in and assist, they will get a hold of our system offers right away and direct us to that. Or if it's something that's, you know, a little bit less than you think that Hydros should know, we have lots of different social media channels you can reach out on and let us know. And that really does help because that information does find its way down to the crews in the fields and it helps us get to the outage and find that problem that's causing the outage that much quicker.
Dan Seguin 24:57
In addition to being a qualified arborist Greg, you also have extensive knowledge about electricity. Can you talk about this dual role and special qualifications that you have? How dangerous is your job? And do you work around live electricity at high voltage?
Greg Tipman 25:17
Yeah, Dan. So just a little background on my schooling and qualifications. So I did my forestry technologist diploma at Algonquin, which is a two year program. And then from there, I moved out to BC to work on some really big trees and wildlife out there. I morphed into the utility side of tree work. And that's where I went and did my apprenticeship program. From there, you need approximately 4000 hours just to qualify, the program is a two year program, you accumulate about about 6000 hours around of live line clearing, working around the wires, you learn how electricity all the bases, electricity, how it works, how to identify the equipment, that coupled with your actual tree work in the tree, the the tools, special tools you'll be using, so dielectrically tools, how to operate bucket trucks, so on and so forth, rigging big chunks of wood down and trees how to do it safely. All the while in close proximity to these overhead high voltage wires. It's very, very dangerous. I mean, you couple your, you know, 3040 5060 feet up hanging by ropes, you're using a chainsaw to cut wood. Plus you have a live line that's, you know, five, six feet away from you. So it's definitely very dangerous. But the schooling, the on the job training that you get just, you know, old hands, showing you the techniques, the up to date, safety standards, and whatnot, it makes your comfort level something that you would never, you know, come natural to you become second nature. So it's definitely a process, it's definitely building confidence over time. And then, you know, taking classes, learning, whether it's through the International Society of Arboriculture on the tree side of things for tree health, you know, what are the tree species? Biology pests? You know, a lot of times customers will ask, you know, why is my tree dying? Why is it declining? A lot of times people will think, oh, it's Hydro, you trimmed the tree incorrectly? Well, no, it's, you know, a pest infestation or you did some landscaping or whatnot, the roots have been killed and whatnot. So it's learning all that, that, you know, information and coupling it and pairing it with the electrical side of things that it really makes for a harmonious job and, you know, a great aspect to keep learning, there's always new information, new research coming out on on trees and the electrical side of things. You know, and then just just basically, you know, having the resources also at hydro Ottawa, it makes that partnership that much better for getting the work done and done safely.
Dan Seguin 28:41
Okay, so, Greg, I've seen some amazing footage of folks in your profession climbing pretty high in trees. So besides not having a fear of heights. What's that, like? And what's the favorite thing about your job? Have you ever surprised some birds or even squirrels? Or have surprised you?
Greg Tipman 29:06
Yeah, so kind of, like I was touching on there. I mean, the fear of heights is not was never really the big, big deal. It was more trusting your gear. Knowing that, you know, a 10-12 millimeter diameter rope is going to hold you and your gear. You know, it's going to hold, you know, wood swinging around and whatnot, it's not going to break off, you know that your knots have been tied correctly. They're not going to come undone, you're gonna fall to your death and get injured or whatnot. Those were kind of the first fears to really get over. But once you get that , it's practice. The more you do it, the more you get comfortable doing it, the more you feel safe and secure. I've definitely had some weird, interesting animal encounters while working in the trees. I've had birds land on my head and stay there. Are while working. I've had raccoons, you know, climb out hollows. I've had bats, you know, fly out from underneath bark. But probably the scariest wasn't in the tree yet, but we're doing some ground slash BC and probably 10-12 feet away, a black bear just goes running right by. And yeah, it was exhilarating, but it was done in a flash and yeah, nothing more. But you know, it definitely, you know, could have been a different interesting situation had the bear been a, you know, an angry bear, if you will or whatnot. But, you know, if we're, yeah, for the most part, it's the job. You get to see nature all the time. And there's always something great to see. Animal wise.
Dan Seguin 30:50
Okay, both. Are you ready to tag team and close us off with some rapid fire questions? Greg, I'm going to start with you. What's your favorite tree?
Greg Tipman 31:01
Can I give you four Dan? So Eastern White Pine, the monkey puzzle tree, Giant Sequoia, and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree.
Dan Seguin 31:12
Nick, let's move on to you. What is one thing you can't live without?
Nick Levac 31:17
That's an easy one. It's got to be my family. My two girls at home, my lovely wife, and probably a good cup of coffee or a nice americano in the morning just to get things going.
Dan Seguin 31:28
Greg, what habit or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?
Greg Tipman 31:37
Probably flying and crashing my drone, I need more practice.
Dan Seguin 31:48
Okay, next one is for you, Nick. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Nick Levac 31:56
You know what, I think never to age physically. Only in wisdom. The body's getting a little bit older. And every time I go out and try to play hockey or do something now I wake up a little bit sore in the morning so I would keep my physical health. Maybe back when I was in my 20s. That would be amazing.
Dan Seguin 32:16
What about you, Greg, what would your superpower be?
Greg Tipman 32:20
Maybe just unlimited superpowers.
Dan Seguin 32:25
Okay, back to you, Nick. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?
Nick Levac 32:33
You know, I probably try to let them in on a couple of neat world events that we're going to take place between then and then when they're my age now, and just tell him to go there and make sure he's present. And no matter what the cost is. Sometimes you only get what's a once in a lifetime chance to see things and make sure he gets there to experience that life.
Dan Seguin 32:58
And lastly, this one is for the both of you. What do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Greg?
Greg Tipman 33:08
It's really the day to day change, there's always a different challenge that's coming up, you're always in a different location dealing with different people. So it's never, you know, a month a monotonous job, it's always fluid, there's always something new.
Dan Seguin 33:26
What about you, Nick?
Nick Levac 33:28
What excites me the most coming down the pipe, I think it’s the technology that hopefully we're going to be exposed to. I mean, Greg mentioned crashing his drone, but you know, just even stuff like that, and us being able to fly over headlines and really take a good snapshot of what that vegetation looks like within our city. And and what we can do to kind of have a good mix between you know, maintaining that Urban Canopy in Ottawa, and then also at the same time keeping the electricity on and if we can use different types of technology that's coming down the pipe to find a balance between the two that we can get out and and proactively trim trees because we know exactly where they are. And also keep that Urban Canopy for the customers here in Ottawa. I think there's an interesting mix coming down, how we can leverage that technology to our advantage.
Dan Seguin 34:17
Nick, and Greg, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. And again, thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.
Greg Tipman 34:33
Thanks again for having us, Dan.
Nick Levac 34:35
Yes, thank you, Dan.
Dan Seguin 34:38
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
To address climate change, we must be united, working together towards a common goal. But differing perspectives have created a complex and polarized debate: renewable energy versus fossil fuel versus nuclear power. These discussions require an open mind and constructive dialogue to find solutions that work for all stakeholders. In thinkenergy episode 106, Dr. Monica Gattinger, li, unpacks how we can build a stronger way forward for Canada – together.
Related links
Positive Energy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/positive-energy
Positive Energy, Twitter: https://twitter.com/uOttawa_Energy
The Institute for Science, Society and Policy: https://www.uottawa.ca/research-innovation/issp
The Institute for Science, Society and Policy, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/institute-for-science-society-and-policy/
Monica Gattinger, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-gattinger-748a6a42/
Monica Gattinger, Twitter: https://twitter.com/MonicaGattinger
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16130 HYD: February thinkenergy Podcast – Ep 106: Positive Energy
Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,
Dan Seguin 00:28
Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.
Dan Seguin 01:27
These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?
Monica Gattinger 02:55
Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.
Dan Seguin 04:11
Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?
Monica Gattinger 04:20
Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.
Dan Seguin 05:10
Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?
Monica Gattinger 05:32
That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.
Dan Seguin 07:17
Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?
Monica Gattinger 07:32
Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.
Dan Seguin 09:05
Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?
Monica Gattinger 09:19
That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.
Dan Seguin 10:50
Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?
Monica Gattinger 10:56
So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.
Dan Seguin 12:47
Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?
Monica Gattinger 13:11
Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.
Dan Seguin 16:27
Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence?
Monica Gattinger 16:42
Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing
Dan Seguin 17:37
Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?
Monica Gattinger 17:49
Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?
Dan Seguin 21:40
Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?
Monica Gattinger 21:46
Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.
Dan Seguin 25:02
Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?
Monica Gattinger 25:09
Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.
Dan Seguin 26:15
Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?
Monica Gattinger 26:28
That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.
Dan Seguin 30:32
Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?
Monica Gattinger 30:44
Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.
Dan Seguin 34:12
Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.
Monica Gattinger 34:29
Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.
Dan Seguin 37:50
Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?
Monica Gattinger 38:07
Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.
Dan Seguin 41:07
I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?
Monica Gattinger 41:19
Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.
Dan Seguin 42:43
Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?
Monica Gattinger 42:47
So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.
Dan Seguin 44:25
Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.
Monica Gattinger 44:39
Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.
Dan Seguin 46:53
Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?
Monica Gattinger 47:06
Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.
Dan Seguin 49:24
Lastly, Monica, wemalways end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.
Monica Gattinger 49:33
Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best.
Monica Gattinger 49:36
Here we go.What are you reading right now?
Monica Gattinger 49:39
I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.
Dan Seguin 49:52
Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?
Monica Gattinger 49:58
I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat.
Dan Seguin 50:05
Okay, who is someone that you really admire?
Monica Gattinger 50:09
Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,
Dan Seguin 50:26
Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness? That's a
Monica Gattinger 50:33
tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.
Dan Seguin 51:06
Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,
Monica Gattinger 51:13
My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.
Dan Seguin 51:58
Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie
Monica Gattinger 52:06
I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.
Dan Seguin 52:45
Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.
Monica Gattinger 52:50
I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.
Dan Seguin 53:20
Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?
Monica Gattinger 53:35
We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.
Dan Seguin 53:55
Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.
Monica Gattinger 53:59
This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity.
Monica Gattinger 54:03
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
With goals like net zero by 2050, Canada is a leader in the energy transition movement. But another deadline looms – decarbonization of the electricity sector by 2035. It’s 82% emissions-free now, but big challenges remain. Multiple grids governed by individual provinces and territories, regional resources, politics and economics. In thinkenergy episode 105, Moe Kabbara, Vice President of The Transition Accelerator, unpacks the value of an integrated electricity grid and the Electrifying Canada initiative.
Related links
The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/
The Transition Accelerator, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/transition-accelerator/
The Transition Accelerator, Twitter: https://twitter.com/CanAccelerator
Electrifying Canada: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/electrifying-canada/
Moe Kabbara, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moekabbara/
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Meaning Canada's long term climate goals will require a profound transformation of contemporary systems in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. One of these major transitions we're seeing around the world is with the energy sector. Canada is certainly at the forefront of the energy transition movement, and seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its targets to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But there's another much closer interim deadline looming with respect to Canada's Net Zero targets. And that's the decarbonisation of Canada's entire electricity sector by 2035. If we don't achieve that, it's very unlikely we will meet our 2050 Climate goal. In fact, many experts believe there is no pathway to net zero without zero emission electricity. Although Canada's electricity sector is currently at 2% emission free today, removing the remaining fossil fuels from our system is still an ambitious goal to achieve in under 12 years, mainly because we don't have one national electricity grid, we have multiple electricity grids overseen by their respective province, or territory. To further complicate matters, different regions in Canada have different resources. Some are water rich, while others are rich in oil and gas. And of course, there is also reasonable politics and economics at play. As we move forward in the new world of electrification, from transportation to how we heat and cool our homes and businesses, it's believed that we will need a lot more electricity than currently produced. So here's today's big question. What is it going to take to achieve the federal government's target to have 100% emission free electricity by 2035? Today, my special guest is Mo Kibera, Vice President of the transition accelerator, a national not for profit organization that is working to advance Canada's 2050 climate targets in multiple sectors. Our guest oversees a new initiative called electrifying Canada. And we're going to talk about that and the need for an integrated electricity grid in Canada. Moe, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and how the transition accelerator came to be.
Moe Kibera 03:26
Yeah, so my name is Moe Kibera. I'm the Vice President at the transition accelerator. My background has been in clean energy and climate for you know, over a decade now started working in sort of applied research context on renewables and energy storage. I had a thermal energy storage startup in Atlantic Canada, and that I worked in energy efficiency consulting, I worked in Investment Attraction for automotive sector and batteries, specifically related to EVs, that I also I went back into consulting worked on various projects when it comes to like electricity, electric vehicles, battery supply chain. And, yeah, I've been with the accelerator, you know, for since last year, and, you know, the accelerator came to be around 2019, really, with the idea or the basic philosophy that, but it emphasizes that, you know, LinkedIn climate concerns, the broader efforts to really improve society and your disruptive and transformative changes that are going to be reshaping the world around us. So it's really based on the idea of transition. And the idea of transition is not necessarily just about the technology itself, but it's about all the different political, social, economic aspects that come with it. So really, the methodology that the Accelerator has established which is basically methodology or theory of pain of how do we actually get you know, We get to transition out of the systems that we need to bring, you know, new systems that we need to bring forward. And it really starts with examining the issue. So that's really starting with our first kind of approach is understanding. So understanding what are the current systems that we use? How did they come to be, and, and basically, understand the forces that are disrupting the way that we do things. The second approach is called developing or working with stakeholders to co develop the pathways for the future. The number three is analyzing those pathways, and assessing things like costs and benefits and trade offs and public accessibility barriers and bottlenecks. And then the fourth thing, which is how do we get things into the real world, which is advancing, and we've been working on kind of putting off consortia and alliances, that actually are supposed to be implementing the pathways. So it's not about we're not like we like to say we're not a think tank, we're a do tank. So that's kind of our approach and possibly overall.
Moe Kibera 06:13
Dan Seguin 06:13
Okay, how about we dive into your newly launched initiative, electrifying Canada? What is it all about?
Moe Kibera 06:22
Yeah, I mean, the idea is really going to be that electrifying Canada is an initiative that brings together stakeholders, from industry, labor, indigenous groups, civil society, all have a vested interest in accelerating and use electrification, and the build out of a netzero electricity system. And basically, our vision is that we see that widespread electrification can enable an affordable and resilient, clean energy system that powers Canada's economy and kind of gives us a competitive edge when it comes to industrial activities as well. So really, the idea there is that we know electrification is going to be a critical path to get to zero. We can talk about all the other solutions like hydrogen and r&g and the role that they can play, which is great, but what we really know right now is that if occasion is ready to go solution that we need to start on regardless. So it's really about trying to get different stakeholders together, the right voices, the key voices that are needed for action. And that includes, you know, the major TriCity users. So the we needed we needed voice, you know that companies that need electricity or or sectors like transportation and buildings that are going to be in need of electricity to decarbonize, but also includes the supply side of the compensation. So the utilities and the developers and the regulators, that's the we can build it voice. And then the finance community that is looking for investment opportunities in the face, you can finance this, for the bank, the pension fund is the financial institution. But then also bringing into overtime, NGOs, think tanks, the you know, that are working on advancing solutions in the space. So it's really, um, you can think of it as an umbrella initiative, trying to bring everybody that's working on this topic under its wings. And we've we've successfully done that we have 28 partners, that includes all the major players in this in the country working on electrification. And then the sort of activities that we're going to be looking at are research analysis, public outreach, engagement, developing policy frameworks. So we are going to be going across the country this month, starting next week, until April, we're going to be visiting eight cities. So we're going to actually meet people in person where they need them where they're at both physically and metaphorically speaking. And that's going to be the first step to establish the form, which is working as, you know, not just a one off conversation, but as an extended form, to have collaboration, ordination and partnerships. So we're very excited about this initiative. And, yeah, very quickly, we're at/
Dan Seguin 09:22
Mo, can you remind us what some of Canada's key target dates are?
Moe Kibera 09:27
Yeah, I mean, just the very, very big picture. Canada has committed to reaching that zero cross architecture by 2050. And then when we look at some of the sectoral target, we have a target to get to a net zero electricity grid by 2030 500%. New sales of vehicles being zero emissions by 2035 60% of new vehicles being zero emissions by 2030. building sector sector oil contribution Uh, you know, readmission reduction 40% reduction by 2030. So a lot of these different targets when it comes to decarbonisation in the building sector and transportation sector and electricity system, all going to require a huge effort today, and two, that we need to get, get get working on right away. So these are very, you know, ambitious target, and we definitely support them. But that means that we really need to understand the barriers and advanced solutions very quickly, because we're going to meet the target, we're going to be, you know, we need everybody to come on board, and to really have a concrete strategic strategic approach to the widespread electrification and the build out of electricity systems.
Dan Seguin 10:52
Okay, for a follow up question Mo. What does electrification mean? And are these targets driving it?
Moe Kibera 11:00
Yeah, so I mean, I think that really, if you think about it, electrification is basically moving away from technology, that use of your, that coal, oil or natural gas, with technology, they use electricity as a form of energy. So depending on, you know, how you generate electricity, electrification can be zero emission, right. So the idea is that, if I have electricity coming from solar, and I use that solar, they use electricity to write to charge my Eevee, then my Eevee is Eurovision both at the source and also in terms of the upstream emissions. But if I have gasoline in my vehicle, there's really no net zero compatible pathway to getting like I can continue on in improving the emission standards of the vehicle. But at the end of the day, I'm limited by laws of thermodynamics, that I'm always going to have emissions and, and low efficiency for internal combustion engines. So electrification is really using electricity as a source of energy, as opposed to fossil fuels or molecule fuels. And in basically the notion of like, well, we can get electrons that have molecules of fuel. And if we can get the electrons to be centralized in terms of production, and clean electricity, then we can use that to decarbonize our sectors. So a target that I mentioned, they're not necessarily prescriptive, exactly how to decarbonize. So zero emission vehicles include things like, like fuel cell vehicles, and it just, you know, like hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. But the clearest pathway right now, in terms of what are some of the ready to go solutions that we can implement today would be electrification. So that's why those targets are driving the need to electrify because it is something that we can get started right away and technology is available. So electric vehicles have ramped up significantly over the last two years, battery costs went down by 90%. In the last 10 years. Heat pumps are also available and ready to go. decarbonize our buildings. So I think that's really what's driving expectations, because it's a very clear path to get started on right now.
Dan Seguin 13:34
So will electrification mean that we will need more electricity? And if so, how much more?
Moe Kibera 13:43
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Definitely, it's going to mean that we're, we're going to need more electricity, because we're going to be, you know, displacing fossil fuel use without with with another source of energy, which is electricity. So that come from somewhere. debate. And it's not very clear that part of what we're doing now with electron now that we're doing a meta analysis of all the studies that have been published over the last 18 months to look at, what is the expected demand growth, you know, just a quick scan of literature and Canadian analysis, and I've been done, you know, we're looking at like, maybe doubling or activity grid, and some people say, we're going to triple it. I'm not too concerned about whether it's double or triple right now. I mean, obviously, a very big difference. But what's clear that we need to get started on the pathway over the next few years is going to be the same whether it's double or triple, that we need to really understand what are what are some of the near term opportunity, the near term challenges. So we're gonna need a lot more electricity, but also, some, some of the need for electricity is not going to materialize overnight, right. So people are like, well, we can't electrify a petition because we don't have enough electricity, but transcription transitioning our petition stuff T V doesn't happen overnight. It's something that is as follows sort of a technology diffusion theory of, you know, it's not every neighbor, every vehicle in one neighborhood is going to become a view overnight and plug in. So the idea is that we can actually plan for the certifications like electricity demand. And things like energy efficiency and demand side management and demand response and distributed energy refer to all of the all of these different measures, and be very, very critical to reduce our increased demand. So that, you know, we don't, we don't know, I think that that's the cheapest resource, we can avoid using electricity. That's going to be our first cheapest resource. And then we can build out the delta between what we can basically Well, we can reduce completely right. So the idea is that we're gonna need a lot more electricity. But although there are ways to basically mitigate, you know, the impact on the grid and make sure that it's not necessarily very possibly well, to the to the baseline scenario,
Dan Seguin 16:16
Who are some of the partners in the electrifying Canada initiative? And what does their involvement mean to achieve your overall mission?
Moe Kibera 16:26
Yeah, I mean, so brought together as I mentioned, on the demand side, companies like tech resources and Rio Tinto, on the supply side, you know, we have the electricity alliance of Canada, which includes the industry associations, that electricity Canada, the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, the Canadian Nuclear Association, Marina Renewables, Water Power Canada and Electricity HR. And you know, also we have individual companies like Energetic OPG, as well as organizations like OPG Hydro One. And then on the civil society front, we got Pembina Instituten Netzero Atlantic. On labor, we got maybe EW, that comes from Brotherhood's Electric Workers. Also, we have First Nation major project coalition. It's really a broad coalition, and in terms of their involvement, really, it's about bringing, bringing the different voices together that are needed for action. So understanding the barrier, prioritizing those barriers, understanding the solution, prioritizing the solution, and getting through to have a shared vision of what we need to be working on, you know, on a national level, but also at the regional level. So that's why we're doing a regional approach in terms of, you know, figuring out for each province, what is the framework that we need to be working on for it to get to net zero electricity? So we're very happy to bring together you know, as I mentioned, 28 organizations, that's been, you know, the whole supply chain of electricity, but also include civil society, indigenous people, labor, and also the finance community.
Dan Seguin 18:10
Now, in addition to affordable, resilient and clean, what are some of the other qualities you're looking to achieve in your mission to electrify Canada?
Moe Kibera 18:20
Well, I think that, you know, really thinking through accessibility, and, and, and making sure that the electricity is available to everybody, in terms of, you know, different regional perspectives and different regional representation. So I think that we can get an electricity system that is actually affordable. So we don't have, you know, we don't bankrupt people for energy, which is really critical for us. So that's kind of like a trilemma there. And I think valid, there is a balance there to be struck between affordable, resilient, so resilient and reliable, put them in a box, and they clean. So for me, really, the vision is quite simple. And you wanted to keep it simple, because it's simple, but it's not easy, right? So we know what we need to do. We know what kind of characteristics we want our future electricity system to look like and our future energy system to have. But getting there, it's going to be a challenge. So our philosophy of the accelerator is we're starting with the end state, knowing that we need an electricity system that is affordable Atlantic clean, and then working backwards from there.
Dan Seguin 19:35
Okay. Maybe you can unpack your plans for public outreach and what are you hoping to learn from these more regional conversations?
Moe Kibera 19:46
Yeah, so I mean, we're going to be going to Vancouver Regina, Winnipeg, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, St. John's and we're going to be doing also in northern communities and indigenous communities. Some online workshops, to start off, really what we want to do is establish a baseline. So one is we want to understand where each region is in terms of their understanding of the look, the challenge at the regional level. So we're sort of established something called the, we want to start with something called the real world overlay. And it's a framework to really ground everything that we know is a barrier or an issue that will stop us from getting electricity. So that, that includes things like rate increases that include things like lighting constraints, labor constraints, skill needed, the all of these different barriers, we talked about, they're around, people keep mentioning them, but they're not gonna floating in the air, like, like I imagine the the more like floating with the cloud, and part of our objective is to really round them somewhere, so we can actually keep track of them. So what we're hoping to establish is this framework that will be public or developed. So it's not just us doing it. It's the stakeholders, informing it through the sessions that we're hosting, and through the relationships that we're building and the partners that we brought into the initiative, and then having it be evergreen and public. So that, really, if you think of it, this can be the sort of centralized forum for tracking all the barriers and solutions that are being implemented to address those barriers of Quebec. or BC, wants to implement a trial rate structure for low income households. With this framework, we track that over time, so that others who are working on these issues can go in and learn from that in a very kind of centralized and consolidated framework.
Dan Seguin 21:48
Now, why are Canada's electricity systems central to the country's netzero 2050 goals? Do we have a clean energy advantage?
Dan Seguin 22:01
Yeah, I mean, more than 80% of our electricity is already non emitting, which is great. Like relatively to other countries. So that's really gonna, it's one of our biggest value propositions as well, like when thinking about attracting new supply chains like battery manufacturing, and critical minerals extraction, for example. And the idea there is we want to retain that advantage, as we, you know, potentially double or triple our grid, right. So the the core thesis there is that we want to basically build a future electricity system that build on the community connected to the event that we have retained that, and it's going to be as I mentioned, if we're going to use electrification as a key pathway to get to net zero, then that electricity has to be clean. So this is why it's critical,
Dan Seguin 22:54
Okay, well, what would you say, are some of the biggest challenges to the creation of a national strategy and a zero emission pan Canadian electricity grid?
Moe Kibera 23:07
Well, I think the idea there is that we don't have one grid. Right. So that's one of the challenges to start with is because we have sort of a decentralized Federation. So I think that to create a national strategy will require each province to understand where they're, where they're at, and where they want to get to. And right now, it's not a uniform. So we're not, we're not like in the uniform state in terms of every province, kind of understanding that the condition is so BC and Quebec, maybe maybe very different in Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. So we don't have any sort of clarity. So that common framework, so I would say, in terms of the biggest challenge of creating a national strategy is that we need to have each province kind of understand and get their ducks in a row. Before we can really put up, put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
Dan Seguin 24:10
Okay. And in your view, Mo, who leads this and is best positioned to address structural and regulatory obstacles?
Dan Seguin 24:19
Yeah, I mean, I think this is why we want to we wanted to bring and build this coalition, because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we want you need industry at the table, you need to digitize people to the table, you need to verify the labor, you know, so it can't be just government on its own. It can't be just an industry on its own. So what we're hoping that this initiative will do is provide the sort of good framework to start tackling these issues. And in terms of the regulatory changes, I think there's a role obviously for the provinces or the provincial governments. There's a key role for the federal government and, you know, we're seeing things like the development of clean electricity regulation and the Feds playing that role. So I think that it can't just be a government and it has to be sort of a broader coalition. And that's kind of why we're as part of our fourth step in the accelerator, which is advancing solutions. It's building these consortiums and these alliances that really make sure that we converge on the next steps, and we're not really talking past each other. So I think that provincial governments, Crown corps utilities, vertically integrated utilities in certain provinces, you know, understanding where they're at, and modernizing the sort of regulatory framework so that putting electricity is also part of the mandate of the utilities, which is not necessarily the case right now. And it's something that is going to be critical.
Dan Seguin 25:57
Now, time for the crystal ball, what kinds of major investments need to be made to reach the 2035 timeline?
Moe Kibera 26:08
Well, I think it's really a lot of investments in new infrastructure. So generation, renewables and other non emitting electricity and transmission distribution, it's really about a fully integrated investment strategy that looks at, you know, how much more generation do we need? Can we offset some of that initial duration needs with transmission? Okay, but then at the distribution level, you know, what's going on there, when it comes to substations and transformers, like, a lot, like if you look at, for example, electric vehicle and option, you know, the could the bottleneck is not going to be what we have electricity at the director level bottleneck is going to be, we have the infrastructure at neighborhood levels, right, like, our little over the Transformers in the substation be able to handle all the things that are materializing. And it's going to be more critical, more of an issue in certain areas and than others. So I would say, really, the major investment are not going to be we need to build solar and wind, it's going to be you know, looking at all the solutions on generation solar, wind, nuclear, hydro, potentially, in terms of increasing some competence, some hydro capacity, using more efficient turbines, for example. And then storage, making sure that we have energy storage that can help offset or, you know, some of the increased generation needs so that we can have a more reliable facility. And then on the transmission side, looking at opportunities for regional transmission possible and that can help be a more cost effective way to get electricity added to the capacity of the system. And then on the division side, really looking at the local distribution networks and how it's, you know, the modernization of the assets there, basically meet the demand side, that materializing from transportation and building electrification.
Dan Seguin 28:22
And Mo, are intermittent renewable sources, district energy resources and non wire alternatives being considered. And at what scale?
Moe Kibera 28:34
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think I think it's a great question. So I think that a lot of different jurisdictions, especially in the US, and even here at home, are considering things like non white alternatives and distributed energy resources as a way to mitigate some of the major investments required at the distribution level, potentially even the transmission level. So I think that, you know, we need to basically try to find as much cost savings as possible across the supply chain or across the ecosystem. So thinking through generation, we can't, we have to find sort of the most effective low cost electricity. But then thinking throughout the solution level of we can use things like demand response, non viable alternatives to build energy generation to mitigate some of the heavy, high costs of distribution RCEP, then I think that's something that is being considered and we're doing it I've been involved in sort of comparative analysis in the US to look at, you know, what would, what would it cost if we just kind of do traditional distribution and what would it cost if we did not write alternatives? And then what are the cost benefits there? So I think that is something it is one of the tools in the toolbox for sure.
Dan Seguin 29:56
Now, Canada is a major fossil fuel exporter. With the oil and gas sector generating substantial revenues and supporting 1000s of jobs, oil and gas also contribute 26% of Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions. How do we approach this issue thoughtfully to achieve our climate goals?
Moe Kibera 30:22
Yeah. So I mean, I think there are opportunities to really look at the upstream missions, from the oil and gas sector, and actually using electrification, to help decarbonize the oil and gas sector as well. So thinking through, you know, this, you have, you know, you have the actual emissions that come from burning gas, and then you have the actual emissions that come from producing it. So if we're thinking about the production emissions, you know, there's there are going to be a lot of opportunities to leverage new technologies like carbon capture electrification, but even thinking about the hydrogen that is currently using the oil and gas sector that maybe coming from what we call black hydrogen, turning that into blue or hydrogen. But there's a lot of actually low hanging fruits that can really help us reduce a lot of the oil and gas emissions from coming from production. And then I think about what we're interested in as well as understanding what are the opportunities coming up from an industrial strategy or industrial perspective that can help us, you know, grow sectors or the Canadian economy. So I'm the co-chair of the game battery Taskforce. So it's a taskforce that's focused on basically growing Canada's battery supply chain, and electric vehicle manufacturing. So in that sense, the auto sector contributes 500,000 jobs directly and indirectly, as a youth contributor to GDP. How do we make sure that we retain that advantage when retaining that contribution to the sectors but also grow it because, you know, we want to be able to diversify our economy and be part of an industrial green industrial future. At the accelerator, one things that we're very interested in is industrial policy that is focused on competitiveness, and understanding where that competitiveness comes from, in terms of the emerging sectors, so things like zero emission vehicles, biofuels, hydrogen, aviation, fuels, mass, timber, critical minerals, so we need to basically understand the opportunities that are emerging as part of this new world order of being industrial futures. And I understand how Canada can can play in that so that on the export table, you know, you know, that we're able to sort of elevate some of those protectors, to be able to cover the gap that, you know, will come into play as part of the natural world that is emerging in terms of decreasing reliance on fossil fuels.
Dan Seguin 32:53
Now, how does your initiative electrified Canada fit in the federal government's plan to create a pan Canadian grid Council?
Moe Kibera 33:04
Yeah, so we're, we're working very closely with natural resources, Canada, they're very supportive of this initiative. You know, and we're still kind of keeping our ear to the ground when it comes to the national grid Council. But we hope that basically, this initiative can be sort of a parallel process, in terms of really having INTEL RESEARCH, convening, that can feed into the group Council, because the idea of the good Council is not going to be able to bring together hundreds of people, right, it's going to be more, we don't know exactly what it will look like. But it will be a bit more stark, smaller scale. So the hope there is that the regional engagements that we're doing the sort of more granular analysis that we're doing, can help feed into some of the recommendations and feedback from the grid council. So it's kind of like a parallel process.
Dan Seguin 33:56
Okay. Now, let's go beyond the borders here. What can we learn from the EU or Denmark or other Nordic countries with respect to their cooperation, to expand the electricity grid and decarbonize it?
Moe Kibera 34:13
Yeah. So I mean, I think that for Denmark, and for the rest of Europe, really kind of showcasing the advantage they've had when it comes to renewable energy development. And focusing also on sort of the green electricity advantage. Some of the collaborations or integration that we've seen, even actually in Switzerland, you know, it's really about rent integration, and integrating different grids together. So, you know, in Switzerland, we had a little bit more of a decentralized structure and there was an initiative last few years to kind of bring it together into sort of digital using technology and digitize Vation and sort of modernization efforts to be able to, you know, integrate the math supply in Switzerland and make it a bit more of a national grid. So I think that the lessons there, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. The idea of electricity supply theory of supply is very big in Europe right now. And, and I think that there was a bit of a sort of force of hand, given the crisis in Ukraine, that kind of pushed or accelerated the need for integration. And I think that was a very critical aspect of what were some of the trends you're seeing in terms of good integration there.
Dan Seguin 35:48
Okay. Now, what about lessons from discussions happening with respect to the Atlantic loop? Do you have an update on that?
Moe Kibera 35:57
Well, I think the Atlantic loop, you know, it's gonna be, you know, it's very interesting to see, it really highlighted that there's a lot of challenges when it comes to actually building up a major project like that are still kind of waiting to see especially given you know, Nova Scotia Energy Board, basically put a cap on on a rate increases, which basically prompted Nova Scotia to say that, you know, they're they're going to be put in a position where they can't invest if they can't recover costs from ratepayers. So I think that it's still something that is very, it's going to be a very positive precedent for US and Canada that we can bring together these provinces, you know, multiple provinces together, people had Labrador, Nova Scotia, Quebec, both were New Brunswick. So I think it's going to be obviously a critical project to reach the net zero targets for those for Atlantic Canada, right. So especially for Nova Scotia. So I think that you know, some of it's gonna be interesting to do like a little bit of a post mortem, hopefully, after we're done to basically dissect some of the lessons learned in terms of the barrier of bringing together you know, the different provinces in independent electricity system and also the different structures of the utility right? Nova Scotia has a different structure and then New Brunswick Power and BC Hydro and Hydro Quebec.
Dan Seguin 37:42
What are the biggest obstacles with our provinces when it comes to cooperation, and successfully achieving an integrated grid? How can electrifying Canada play a role?
Moe Kibera 37:56
So I think we don't want to over promise. And I think part of what we're trying to do, and we're very genuine, is to really help kind of, like I mentioned before, round all these different issues and put them somewhere that we can actually understand. And be clear that we're all looking at the same thing, while having a sort of shared understanding of the baseline of where we're at. So I think provinces a big part of it is communication and integration. So a lot of provinces don't necessarily know what other provinces are doing. So when I worked as a consultant, a big part of what we did, or a lot of our clients with fictional scans, so you'd be talking to utility in BC or utility in Alberta. And they'd be like, Why would somebody do it? What are they doing in Quebec? And I think that kind of knowledge sharing is not necessarily there sometimes. And so I think it's something very simple but, but it's something that is going to be very critical, because it's a way for us to turn the challenges of the decentralized Federation into an advantage in terms of running different experiments in different places, because we are able to do that. So trying different rate structures in different provinces trying different programs in different provinces. So what we're trying to do with with overcoming the provincial barriers, is to really offer those lessons learned and best practices and consolidating them into a framework that we're developing, ensuring that ensuring that we are kind of that conduit for information sharing and for integration collaboration,
39:35
Okay. polar opposites now, what are the biggest opportunities that provinces and territories could benefit from with an integrated grid?
Moe Kibera 39:47
Well, I think the biggest opportunity would be to really take advantage of, you know, the differences in the provincial system. So you know, a province that has A lot of when versus a province that has a lot of solar versus a province that has a lot of hydro, you can basically look at the system and try to develop an integrated approach to that. It will be overall cheaper for them to basically work together and take advantage of the different technology that they have. Right. I think really, at the end of the day, if cost reduction, and being able to meet their targets, you know, in a way that it's that that ensures the affordable, resilient, reliable, and clean electricity system.
Dan Seguin 40:39
Okay, so, does reaching the 2035 targets hinge on a unified and integrated grid across Canada? Or can it be achieved without it?
Moe Kibera 40:51
Well, no, I don't think it hinges on a unified electricity grid, I think I think we need to realise that we do have multiple grids and multiple systems. And that we need to start from that position. We need to look at a national approach that can basically help us reduce costs, ensure more reliability, and a cleaner system. But I don't think necessarily, you know, it's either or, it's not like we either have a national grid, or we're never getting there, I think it's more about integrating as much as possible to reduce barriers and to reduce costs.
Dan Seguin 41:36
Now, looking forward to your response to this next question. Is there a huge communication challenge to overcome? I read in the transition accelerators report building path to a sustainable future, that this shouldn't be framed as just about electricity or technology, or even net zero emissions. How do you think electrification, and the climate conversation should be positioned?
Moe Kibera 42:07
I think the climate conversation really at the end of the day, for us, it kind of eats up with the world moving very quickly. So we have things like the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, and we have failed policies emerging in Europe. And all of that is leading us down a path of great green industrial growth and industrial future. So people are driving EVs. Yeah, sure, because of emissions, but really, because the more efficient, the more reliable in terms of, you can just come home and charge it, and you know, how you never have to go to a gas station? Yeah, sure, the issues range, but you know, 99% of the time, it's not really an issue. So we're thinking through a lot of technologies. And we kind of see the climate and that zero emission aspect is a sort of secondary or a, like a byproduct of, of the green industrial transition. And then the candidate position, you know, we want to be able to participate and get all of the economic benefits that come from this being an actual global leader in effectors. And we do have that opportunity, because they have access to critical minerals and metals, they have access to technology and intellectual property development that is happening here, boom, we have the electricity advantage. So for us, really, the framing is about, you know, how do we position Canada to be an economic powerhouse when it comes to green wind technology. Because we technology is obviously going to be needed for climate change. And that we're, you know, but but really, at the end of the day, it's about, you know, taking advantage of the economic benefits that come with that. And as well as the front of the same coin, and given how the world is shifting, and especially as I mentioned, Europe and Europe in the US the demand is there. And how do we basically position ourselves to be able to take advantage of that growing demand and, and be an exporter of different technologies? The world?
Dan Seguin 44:16
Okay, do you truly think we lack a shared vision as Canadians on the future? And how do we get there together? How do we fix it?
Moe Kibera 44:27
I think initiatives like the Canada initiative that we're doing as well, when it comes to the emission vehicle, light chain and building electrification and all these we were involved in several initiatives is the first step right. So I think it's really about understanding what the future could look like, where are the where, what are our strengths? What are what's our value proposition of the country, and then you're using the computations and forums and convening aspect to really sort of tool to create a shared vision. I think that also, you know, making sure that we have communication collaboration between provincial energy depictions is going to be critical. So, yeah, I mean, I think, for us, we really believe that advancing solutions means bringing in the actual people and the stakeholders that are involved in that and implementing the solutions together, and waiting, insistent for collaboration. So if you look at Europe, the Canadian battery, the European Battery Alliance, you know, they brought together hundreds of stakeholders, and they've successfully started to build out a very, you know, sophisticated battery supply chain in Europe. So this kind of private public partnership is, you know, through a third party intermediary, we see that as a very critical tool to actually reaching a shared vision.
Dan Seguin 46:04
Now, there is something I know that's on the top of the list of considerations, customer affordability. What are your thoughts on how we can achieve our goals, while maintaining costs for customers?
Moe Kibera 46:21
Yeah, I mean, I think part of it, part of the process that we're going through is to actually landlord solutions for that issue. And that those solutions can be different for different provinces and different regions. I think that I don't really have the answer. But there's a lot of different but a lot of smart people that we have brought together and part of this ultra pine Canada initiative, have ideas. And like I mentioned before, we need to basically consider those ideas, maybe do some trials. I'll give just one example. You know, one thing could be like a means tested rate structure for low low income households, right. So like, but also we're also thinking about and talking about how energy costs can be reduced because of efficiencies gained through electrification. So if you are somebody that drives a car, and has a baseboard heaters in Quebec, for example, you know, if you can, if you get an electric vehicle, and if you get heat pumps, your energy consumption will actually be reduced, or even a brace increase increased by a little bit, your overall energy costs could potentially be much lower than the existing energy costs. So there's a lot of nuance there. And I think that we need to be careful that nobody's left behind and design our structures to rate structures and how we manage energy costs, to make sure that affordability is top of mind, right? So I think this is something that there's no one answer for every single province or every single region in the country, there's going to be multiple solutions that we can try out multiple suites of solutions that are going to work hand in hand. And we're motivated that by bringing together the coalition that we brought together, we're basically going to be able to get to the answers and advanced solutions.
Dan Seguin 48:13
Now Mo, are you looking at opportunities to integrate our electricity grid with the US? What are the benefits that could help modernize and even optimize our grid with a US partnership?
Moe Kibera 48:28
I think that's a really great conversation. One of our partners, you know, was in the US recently had this exact conversation, I would say, at a high level, we should be exploring all opportunities when it comes to integration, whether it's regional within Canada or cross border, because at the end of the day, as I mentioned, it's about you know, it's very simple. If I have I have access, and you have demand. And then let's make sure that my access goes to your demand. If you have access, and I have demand, let's make sure that your access comes to my demand, and then as a way to reduce, you know, cost because then okay, well, I'm not going to overbuild my generation because there's there's sort of a pathway for me to meet my demand, knowing that there's excess electricity coming from across the border, or vice versa. So I think that the integration with the US is something that is critical for us to consider. But also it's going to be a lot easier once we have our ducks in a row within Canada. Right. So once we have our own strategy and our understanding of what is the delta between what we can do in house, what is the delta, between what we can export, what is our access? That's going to make the conversation we're going to be coming to the conversation from a position of strength and position an advantage right? So I think that it's something that is top of mind, but it seems a little bit a little bit down the road from today. I mean, we already have integration with us, obviously But, in terms of that broader integration, it seems like the conversation is a little bit in the early stages.
Dan Seguin 50:07
Lastly, what's exciting you and giving you hope about the possibility of an integrated and zero emission electricity grid?
Moe Kibera 50:18
Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting that we are going to be able to really decarbonize a huge amount of our sectors under carbon on buildings, reputation, industrial agriculture. And really the idea of having a fully netzero grid. I mean, for Canada, as I mentioned, we're largely not emitting which has been great, but to get to net zero. And what I'm really optimistic about is seeing all of the different efforts that are happening when it comes to electricity generation when it comes to developing some kind of policy certainty for investors. So as I mentioned, this is sort of a trend that is an industrial economic trend. I'm excited to see that coupling that's happening where it's like, it's not either or it's really, this is where the world is headed. This is where the where the money that is where the economy is going at a global level, we need to get there and hey, guess what, as part of this, we get to also get into zero and help, you know, address climate change, but I think that's really what's exciting for me at this point in time is that we reached the stage where there is that integration between, you know, economics and climate.
Dan Seguin 51:36
Okay, sir, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? For more? What are you reading right now?
51:48
I'm rereading a book called Electrification by Paul Griffith from Rewiring America.
Dan Seguin 51:56
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Moe Kibera 52:00
I don't. I guess Transatlantic.
Dan Seguin 52:03
Okay. Now, who is someone that you admire?
Moe Kibera 52:08
I really admire Bruce Laurie from the Foundation because I recently had an amazing conversation with him. And you know, the work that he's done, especially with the get Ontario off call,
Dan Seguin 52:17
this next one is always a challenging one. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Moe Kibera 52:26
I guess, diving underwater.
Dan Seguin 52:29
Now,what is the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,
Moe Kibera 52:35
I guess with live music went away. It was tough.
Dan Seguin 52:38
Okay, last one here. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Moe Kibera 52:47
I really love Succession, an HBO show?
Dan Seguin 52:50
Okay, MO. Lastly, what is exciting about your industry right now.
Moe Kibera 52:55
What's really excited me is the growth. It's really seeing how fast we're growing. You know that it's not necessarily mainstream now. It is the future, we've hit that point of inevitability. And it's really exciting to be that.
Dan Seguin 53:12
Okay, so this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today, Moe. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Moe Kibera 53:26
Yeah, we're at transition accelerator.ca. And you can go there and find our contact info. Also on social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, happy to connect with folks. And, yeah, really appreciate that opportunity to be here today, Dan.
Dan Seguin 53:43
Cool. Okay. Thanks. Now, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Moe Kibera 53:50
Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Dan Seguin 53:52
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Canadians lost $530M to scams in 2022, per the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. To take advantage of unsuspecting consumers, some fraudsters target the energy industry. In thinkenergy episode 104, Jared Lawrence, Founder & Executive Committee Chair of Utilities United Against Scams, discusses how to protect yourself from scams and what to do if you’ve been duped. Jared is also the Vice President of Revenue Services & Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the U.S.A.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Chances are you've either been a victim of a scam, or you know someone who has. According to the Canadian Anti Fraud Centre, there were more than 90,000 reports of fraud in 2022. This resulted in $530 million lost to scams in Canada last year alone. Of that 530 million, only 2.4 was recovered. That's how successful these criminals are. The most common method fraudsters are using to scam Canadians email and telemarketing. It may or may not be surprising, but the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make a quick money from unsuspecting energy customers. And we've seen an increase in their efforts to call, text, email and even show up in person at a customer's home and place of business to intimidate and threaten. Since the pandemic began in 2020, the Canadian RCMP have seen a significant increase in fraudulent activity with approximately 70% done through cyber attacks. And as we've seen firsthand in the energy industry, fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated, evolving with the times. Yep. According to a recent survey by Chartered Professional accountants, Canada 62% of Canadians are actively taking steps to protect themselves from scammers. But is it enough? So here's today's big question. How can we better protect ourselves from scams? And what are your options if you've been scammed by fraudster joining me on today's show is Jared Lorenz, Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the US. Duke Energy provides electricity to 7.7 million customers in Florida, the Carolinas and part of the Midwest. Jared is also the founder and Executive Committee Chair of an organization known as utility united against scams. Jared, welcome to the show. Now, scams are such a big problem in our industry that there's a utility scam Awareness Day and a National Scam Awareness Week. That's how big problems gotten. What can you tell us about the utility united against scams and your vision when you started it?
Jared Lawrence 03:28
That's an excellent question. And there's actually a Hydro Ottawa connection that I will get to in a second Dan. Really, utilities unite against scam started as a result of an internal investigation at my company. We were hosting our CEO, actually in our call center where both our customer care agents as well as the back office employees who report to me we're having a Q&A session with our CEO. And one of the Customer Care Specialists raised her hand and said, Miss Good, I'm really concerned. We have a lot of customers calling up about scammers, and they're convinced that these scammers actually have their information. What are we doing about this? And this was back in 2015. So, this was in the context of a number of high profile breaches with major retailers that were in the media. And so this was something we were definitely heightened, had a heightened sensitivity to. And she actually looked at me, as as one of the two leaders in the room and said, Yes, Jared, what are we doing about that? I said, Well, we're not doing anything right now. But we're going to start tomorrow. And so we actually commissioned a SWAT team internally to make sure that there were no data breaches, no breaches with our vendors, no inside, you know, bad actors who were sharing information with scammers, and it became apparent very quickly, that these scammers did not actually have customer information. They were just brilliant social engineers and in all of our net, our information networks were completely secure. So we got to the end of that effort. It took about, you know, three weeks to do that intensive investigation. And then I said to the team, well, now what? We're not going to leave these folks, you know, our customers out there to fend for themselves against these criminals. What did we learn from this? And what can we do about it? And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that this is a problem of international scale, but each utility was attacking it as an individual entity. And we would have so much more presence, so much more of a voice in the public policy space, if we joined together as the influential industry that serves the public, and use our cloud to basically push for change and better protect our customers. So that's not the concept of utilities, but scams were born. I made the pitch to a number of attendees at CS Week. And so far, you know, many folks in the utility industry are aware of CS Week, it is the Customer Service focused Conference for utility professionals. This was back in the spring of 2016, then, and immediately, the cars essentially sold themselves. There were 25 utility organizations represented in the room and every single one of them came up to me afterwards, and expressed interest in becoming part of this vision of this industry effort. But it was actually an A breakfast conversation later on during the conference with David McKendree, who's retired from Hydro Ottawa, who's become a friend of mine through our board work on CS Week. And he pulled me aside he said, Jared, I've been thinking a lot about your utilities united against scams effort. And I suggest maybe you consider a national campaign. And, and the fact that utilities across North America are coming together, to, to work together for this specific event, this specific campaign that's newsworthy in and of itself. And I think, Jared, that if you take that approach, you will be able to attract so much more interest in this cause, and, frankly, so much more membership and he was spot on. I thought it was a fantastic suggestion. We made that kind of the centerpiece of our first few months of existence back in 2016, culminating with our National Utility Scam Awareness Day and National Utility Scam Awareness Week in November of 2016. The US House of Representatives, of course, recognized us with a declaration of national utility scam Awareness Day. And we went from 25 utility organizations that expressed interest in that first conference to 89 members by the time we got to that campaign in November, and since then, we've grown to where we are today at exactly 150 across the US and Canada. So it's grown beyond what I honestly could have expected or hoped for, but certainly not beyond that vision of the industry coming together to protect our customers against us, against this very important surge.
Dan Seguin 08:01
Okay, Jared, what types of scams are appearing most often? Can you maybe provide some real life examples? And has the global pandemic altered scam activity? And its frequency?
Jared Lawrence 08:18
Excellent question. And so at the core, the scam that was the main focus of utilities back in 2015, when I started our investigation to Duke Energy and, and it remains today. It's that classic disconnection threat scam. So a customer gets a call out of the blue from somebody purporting to be a representative of the utility. And they state that due to some sort of problem with the account or some sort of problem with a payment being returned by a bank or some, you know, some fabricated excuse like that. The customer's account is now overdue, and there is a disconnection technician in route to turn off the customer's power. Usually it's power. Sometimes it's other utilities, but it's almost always powered within the next 30 to 45 minutes. And so the customer needs to act. They need to purchase a prepaid card and call the scammers back with that information within the next 30 to 45 minutes to prevent this connection. That was their bread and butter back in 2015. It's still their bread and butter today. What's interesting is that we've seen little variations in scammers. They are attuned to what's happening in their market, so to speak, and how utilities and law enforcement and others are reacting to their tactics. And so they've tried certain things. So for example, one of the things that we saw at Duke Energy was that when our smart meters were being deployed in each of our territories and in our six electric states. The scammers at various times would attempt to kind of change the tactic and focus on a meter deposit that the customer had failed to pay something that wouldn't typically show up on a bill and that kind of thing. Kind of trying to capitalize on that, on the headlines associated with utility. And with utility at that particular time, those didn't work very well. So we tend to see the attempt to collect that meter deposit, that scam fell off pretty quickly. We've seen the scammers attempt, text and email sporadically; those don't seem to work very well either, because they don't have the same level of immediacy that a phone call has. So those tend to flare up at times and then die out on their own. We've seen the scammers explore different payment channels. So we've had some customers report that the scammers have asked them to pay in Bitcoin, which, of course is absurd, because I don't know about. But Duke Energy certainly does not accept Bitcoin. We've seen them request Zell transfers, which are actually traceable. So that would work very well. For the banks. We've seen several skimmers recently try and use a cash app. But their bread and butter has historically been prepaid cards and you know, one or two prepaid cards in particular brands of which I won't mention on this podcast. But there are one or two that stand out above all the rest that are particularly susceptible to fraud. Oh, I'm sorry. Then you also asked me about the global pandemic, if you address that. So there was a fascinating cycle that we observed during 2020. So our utility, and utility is all across the world, probably we're announcing suspensions of the credit collections policies and suspensions of disconnections. We saw the scammers initially attempting to kind of plow through that and and continue to attempt their disconnection scams. But we just saw customers weren't falling for it. Customers were completely attuned to the fact that you had disconnected and suspended their disconnection practices. And so the scammers that after attempting for a little while, the volume really started to taper off. But immediately when we started talking about a reinstitution of some of our credit Collections Practices, even though we were working with customers still letting customers know that they were going to have to get onto a payment arrangement. In order to avoid this connection toward the end of the year, the scammers were clearly paying attention to the meeting around us and other utilities. And immediately they started ramping up as if they had gotten behind on their annual revenue goals. And they felt that they needed to ramp back up their activities. And so it turned out that 2020 as a whole ended up being one of the highest volume years in terms of scan since we created our database through energy. And where there were over 20,000 scan reports of the year the vast majority of them happened in late summer, throughout the remainder of the year when scan was new that we had started to in modified form reinstate some of our credit collections policies.
Dan Seguin 13:18
Okay, thanks, Jared. Are there any specific population groups who are frequently targeted? How can we as a community offer better support to these groups? What's the best line of defense?
Jared Lawrence 13:32
So, you know, again, as with everything that I've seen, in the six years that I've been heavily engaged in this topic, they tend to go in cycles. And so in the beginning, it seemed to be random, the victims, the target seemed to be random. And so since it was random, there was you know, statistically, the vast majority of utility customers are residential. And so there was a heavy focus on residential customers. What we started to see is obviously, I've never spoken with a scammer to validate this. But what we started to see was that the scammer started to use tools, probably online maps, you know, simple tools like Google Maps, etc. To determine what were the businesses in a particular area and How close were they to some of the retail outlets sold the prepaid cards that they like to use? And the reason they were focusing on businesses is if they caught up with a residential customer, and they and they would say to the residential customer, you're behind on your bill. Yeah, that was two months. Well, they really couldn't ask for more than, you know, a couple 100 bucks because a typical residential customer knows that they're your average utility bills, not going to be that much more than 100 bucks unless it's the heat of the summer or the or the depth of winter. But they recognize that they started calling restaurants, veterinary clinics and, and others that are fairly energy intensive that they could ask for 1000s of dollars. And it would work because at the same time they would they would get into a rhythm where they would come All these particular businesses during what they knew to be, for example, a restaurants busiest part of the day during the lunch hour, a veterinarians busiest type of day, right mid afternoon when they might have had dogs and cats under sedation, a dry cleaners, busiest time of the day, right around five o'clock in the, you know, post the rush hour period when people are dropping in to pick up their dry cleaning, things like that. The scammers became very intelligent about, again, the social engineering aspect of focusing on the times when their victims were most vulnerable. What we've seen, what we tend to see and I do think that these scammers are, are paying attention and noticing the impacts of YouTube from utilities united against scams, in that over the course of the last few years, we have forged a partnership with in with an organization called somos, which is the toll free administrator that toll free number administrator for basically all toll free phone lines across North America. And, what started happening was that we were getting there, you know, through this partnership, we were having the scammers when 100 numbers disconnected. And the scammer started to recognize this. And so they have migrated toward more of a robo calling model now, where they call up and they say instead of asking the customer to call back, they say press this number to speak to press one to speak to somebody about your delinquent bill, for example. And because they're using robocalls. Now, it's much more random again, and so we're seeing a shift back toward a higher preponderance of residential customers. Now all along, we have seen particularly with utility scam, that Spanish speaking populations and Spanish speaking businesses in particular have been more vulnerable. And I think there's two reasons for this. The first of which is that in my conversations with law enforcement and my direct conversations with the scammers, because I talk to them a lot when I'm calling up to validate that they're using fraud numbers, I call them up and try to play along and pretend I'm a victim. They tend to be they seem to be originating from Spanish speaking countries, most likely in Latin America, and law enforcement has corroborated that. And sometimes when I call them up, they're actually answering the line in Spanish, meaning that they are targeting Spanish businesses in particular, at that particular time, and they seem to be much more fluent in Spanish than they are in English at times as well. And, and so the reason that we think that this customer group is more vulnerable is because there is a, you know, there's a natural language barrier between the routine communications that they would receive from utility, versus the communications that they're receiving from these scammers. And therefore, that might cut through some of the awkwardness that a native English speaker might pick up on if they were being contacted by somebody who isn't an eight native English speaker, originally versus being a native Spanish speaker. And the second two is that there just seems to be a little bit less of a of a reflex of distrust amongst, amongst Spanish speaking businesses and Spanish speaking community a little bit and a little bit of a greater a greater trust in official communications, or official sounding communications rather than a reflex to immediately distrust something that is that hits them out of the blue. And so we have seen a disproportionate number of Spanish speaking businesses being targeted and showing up on our victims list.
Dan Seguin 18:52
So, in general, Jared, is there anything customers can do to proactively guard themselves and their loved ones? Against scams?
Jared Lawrence 19:03
Great question. So I am a big fan of these anti robocall services such as Nomorobo. It's the one that we use at our house. I'm not a paid spokesman. But I do actually have through the scam work come to know the founder and president of Nomorobo. And so that, and from the car registries that he shared with us, we are seeing that they're doing a good job of blocking a lot of these scam calls that are coming from, they're coming from these criminals. So I recommend that because that'll just reduce the likelihood that householder or businesses that these calls are making it through the searches in the first place. The second thing is really just to know the signs. So you know, the basic signs are that a utility, the first communication you get from a utility about a potential deal delinquent bill or a problem with a payment is not going to be 30 minutes before you're disconnected. And a true utility representative is not going to insist on one particular type of payment, they're not going to make you drive down the street to a local retail outlet, get a specific thing, tell you not to talk to the club clerk and then force you to come back to me that payment quickly. And if you express any doubts at all about the legitimacy of the call, a legitimate utility representative will be more than happy to have you contact the utility directly using the published number, the public contact channels on your actual bill versus what they give you. Whereas a scammer is going to resist all of those because they know what to do when the gig is up. So that's really the key there, you want to reduce your vulnerability or your exposure to scam communications in the first place. And then if they do get through just be highly educated on the signs.
Dan Seguin 21:05
This next one is important. What are some ways to identify a utility scammer over the phone via text message and the scariness of the mall at your door? What are the red flags to look out for the best way to deal with them?
Jared Lawrence 21:26
So again, Dan, I think that the number one thing to keep in mind is that it is very rare that you will get an urgent communication from your utility about a billing problem. That's it with disconnection being imminent. Out of the blue, within the next 45 minutes, that will be the first communication. So a utility scammer typically is somebody who contacts you with a sense of urgency, and there's a lot of pressure built into that communication. They will then resist, they will try and talk you out of seeking independent verification of identity. So whether it's a call or a call that you get, if you say Well Do you mind if I just hang up and call the number back on your official website just to validate this, a scammer will try and talk you out of that they'll say something like the driver is already on his way. Or if it's even worse, if they're at your door. And and you open the door and you are not expecting him, a utility representative will be more than happy to allow you to take the time to call the Customer Care Center to validate their legitimacy. Whereas a criminal will try and convince you that something is very urgent and you don't have the time to do so. Those are some of the some of the most obvious signs of a criminal who's trying to pressure you into taking action before you have time to think and get the facts straight. You know, again. The other thing to keep in mind, too, is and we've seen that we saw this from the very beginning when going back to that first customer care ever raised that concern because she felt that she was relaying the customers felt that their that their information had been compromised when in fact it wasn't just because a a somebody posing as utility rep seems to have your info, it does not make them legitimate. Unfortunately, most information about us as individuals, as consumers is available out there on the web. It's just one of the sad facts about modern life. Additionally, though, these scammers are brilliant social engineers, and they're very good at making you think that they have legitimate information. So even if a scammer calls up and they quote something that sounds like your legitimate balance, don't trust them. In fact, one of the early cases that we research that first month when we when we deployed that SWAT team I was talking about that really convinced me of the nature of this problem was we had one particular customer who had reported that the scammer had their balance their actual balance. And we looked at the account. And sure enough, the information that the customer had reported to us did align with what their most recent bill was. So we talked to the customer and we said well tell us how the conversation went. And they started to think about it. And what they finally recalled was that the scammer called them up and said there was a problem with your last payment. Your payment did not go through and the victim then said well wait a minute. Let me go. I happen to be on my online banking system right now. Let me look right here. And I see my payment for $271.30 or whatever it was. It went through on October 4 or whatever it was. And then the scammer says no, I see your payment for $271.30 and it actually got rejected the next day, October 5 by your bank. And so now the person who was caught off guard by this call in the first place is thinking, Oh, this person must be legitimate because he has a system right there and my payment is in it. And he knows all about my transaction. Well, now, you told them, they tricked you into giving them that information. And so that's the other key is to never ever volunteer account information or personal information. If somebody calls you up out of the blue, and they are legitimate, they will understand if you don't want to volunteer information, they will invite you the opportunity to call back their official customer Carolina. But if somebody calls you out of the blue and starts asking for some information about you, that is another clear sign that that scam is likely you're likely the victim of a scam.
Dan Seguin 25:48
Now, let's say I'm a customer who fell victim to a scam losing money and possibly personal information on the process. What are my options? Is there anyone or anywhere specific that customers can turn to for help?
Jared Lawrence 26:05
Well, so there's some good news, but a lot of not good news to share on that front down. So the first thing I would recommend is if you have fallen victim, and if you have made a payment using any sort of prepaid card or electronic payment channel, immediately call the fraud line associated with the payment method that you use and do it quickly. The reason is that, and I'm speaking about the prepaid cards in particular, the way these scammers work is that they're targeting multiple victims, you know, across the country at any given time across the continent at any one time. And what they do is they call you up, they trick you into making that payment. And, basically in doing that they transfer your money from the card number you provide to a destination card that they're using to collect, and I'll use in quotes launder the funds. And then every few minutes, they sweep the money off of those cards. So there's typically a small window, where if the scammers have not liquidated those funds into the ether, that if you happen to call back, you might be able to get your money back. But you've got to move quickly because a lot of these payment channels that they use are attractive to scammers, particularly because they're non reversible. And, and so your timing has to be very quick and very spot on with those. So that's the first thing to do. The second thing to do, is to file a police report. Now, sadly, because these criminals are typically perpetrating their crimes from offshore, they are not going to be reachable with local law enforcement. But nonetheless, it's important that you follow the police report so that it enters the law enforcement database that helps the various folks in law enforcement at the national level who are trying to create, you know, enough of a body of evidence to investigate these cases and investigate these syndicates that are running these scams. And, and also to mention that, for example, in the United Way to one one service here in North Carolina, and there are other organizations, they actually have resources that are available for victims of cybercrime and other fraud. So I would reach out to your local community assistance agency, if you have suffered any financial hardship as a result of being targeted to determine what resources they have. I'm not aware of any that can restore the funds that you've lost, but they can maybe help you cope with any financial hardship that you're suffering in the near term as a result of being targeted. And then finally, you know, report the attempt to your utility because the utility united against scams. We use this information to refine our strategies. We use this information for our engagement with our telecom partners, our engagement with law enforcement and government officials to support law enforcement efforts and to try and better shape public policy to protect customers against these types of scams.
Dan Seguin 29:16
Now, maybe we could look at prevention. What our utility companies and police force are doing to help deter and fight against scammers. Can you tell us any success stories of scammers being deterred or better yet caught?
Jared Lawrence 29:36
Okay, well, I can actually share with you a couple of instances. These weren't directly related to the utility imposter scam. But the larger using the Canadian revenue associations that would CRA stands for yes. So larger CRA scams we celebrated when we read articles back in the fall of 2018, and again in 2019, where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police executed successful stings of, of scam call centers, basically running those texts, those tax scams against Canadian citizens. And in those time frames. In one case, I believe they arrested 32 Indian nationals who were executing these scams out of a fraudulent call center. And another one, it was 28. criminals who were apprehended in those busts. And really the key there is again, you know, just countless reports of victims, each one a small victim of crime just building up to this very large case, there was also a recent case, in the US with the Internal Revenue Service scam, where I believe that the individual was arrested back into that I can't remember 2017 or 2018, but he was just convicted back in November of 2020, the ringleader, again another Indian call center operation that was running this IRS scam. And the ringleader there was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $9 million. So there are there are people in law enforcement at the national level, both in the Canada and the US, who are who are paying attention and are specifically focusing on these, you know, very lucrative scans these very lucrative criminal operations and building cases and seeking international partnerships to, to to bust these operations. I think that those two are an example of, of operations that were that were claiming hundreds of millions, if not more, dollars in ill gotten gains. And so they're probably slightly bigger fish in these utility scans. And I think these utility scammers are probably collecting millions of dollars a year but not hundreds of millions of dollars, which is why these other tax related scams are gaining or gaining more attention.
Dan Seguin 32:15
Jared, tell me what is at the heart or lack thereof of a scammer's intention? What are some behaviors that are evidence of this?
Jared Lawrence 32:26
So, you know, one of the things that we have spent a lot of time understanding is what is this is the utility imposter scammers Mo, are they spending a lot of time researching their victims to create a really, you know, compelling story that increases their hit rate, or are they really they're going for high volume, low yield, but making their money off of volume. And it's really the latter. And so what I noticed very quickly, in the various countless times that I've called these fraud numbers to validate their phone numbers to get them shut down, frankly, is that the scammer has very quickly tried to ascertain whether you are a likely victim. So if you want to talk with them about anything about address change, sometimes I make up that I'm calling about an outage. They will immediately try and turn it into a conversation about an outstanding debt that is supposedly going to trigger a disconnection. And if you don't, the signal is sort of gullible toward it at that particular time, they're going to end the call really quickly. They'll try and do it in a way that makes it seem polite enough that you'll still walk away from that thinking that it was legitimate utility interaction. But in reality, once you step back, you realize they didn't give me any customer service at all. They were just trying to figure out if I was, if I was unlikely to be marked for them or not. That's the biggest one. The second biggest one is that, you know, we see our customer care agents go through countless hours of training in order to maintain professionalism, and how to be attentive to customers to listen to their needs. The scammers, they get frustrated really quickly and if you attempt to call them out, they will very quickly turn on you and say some things that are very rude, things that can't even be repeated on a podcast. So that is another obvious giveaway is that if the person you're talking to starts to become rude or aggressive, or exerts pressure in any way, they're not utility representatives, okay?
Dan Seguin 34:40
Now, in contrast, tell us what's at the heart of any utility as they engage with customers. How can customers use these contrasting intentions as a legitimate test?
Jared Lawrence 34:53
So recognizing that these scammers might listen to this podcast I'm always a little bit careful to give away all The strategies I use to validate that when I'm calling them up that they're in the, in these cameras, however, the obvious signs of a of a, of a trained utility rep are number one, they're going to be attentive to your needs. Number two, they are not going to try and pressure you into anything. Because our goal is to make sure that you are a happy customer that you're getting the service that you need. And if you happen to be having facing financial hardship or difficulty paying, we're not going to threaten you with this connection, we're going to offer up payment arrangements, ways to structure your utility debt so that you can maintain service with us, the last thing that a utility professional is to do is to see your account, be disconnected for non payment, our goal is to try and work with you as much as we can, to keep you engaged and to work within your means with different payment arrangements and things like that. So. So if the person on the line is not really working with you, then that is a and they had called you first. And that is, you know, a pretty obvious sign right there that they're not a legitimate utility representative. Secondly, also, as I mentioned before, a scammer is not going to want to spend any time talking with you about anything other than you're making a payment to them quickly. So if you have questions about say value added products and services, or if you, you know, are having service, you had a service disruption due to a storm or something like that. You can always ask a question about that and see how they handle it. And if they handle it with knowledge, and they actually are able to show a willingness to take the time to understand your issue, then that's a more than likely legitimate utility. Utility representative. If, however, they constantly bring it back to your fictitious outstanding debt, then you know, you're dealing with a scammer.
Dan Seguin 36:53
Finally, Jared, what does success look like for utilities united against scams? What is your hope for the next 5-10 years?
Jared Lawrence 37:05
So, you know, I read my original instead of this dad kind of changes I thought about a little bit more, especially as we have our five year anniversary of Utah united against stamps coming up, but just in just next week, actually. And, you know, I was thinking the knee jerk reaction would be to say, well, I'd like, I'd like us to basically put these scammers out of business so that we don't, so we can disband so that there's no need for utilities united against stamps. I think that that is a you know, a little bit too rosy eyed. Of course, I think that I do like to make these utility imposter scams go away. And then just maintain kind of a, you know, maintain the collaborative, but maintain it in such a way where we're just touching base sharing information about anything that might be looking suspicious in our markets, and making sure that we are keeping scam activity at a minimum and keeping law enforcement and policymakers fully engaged so that scams don't flare back up to the problem that they are right now. So my goal really is to achieve that combination of policy solutions, as well as share operational tactics with partners in telecom and the prepaid card space and the other financial mechanism that the scammers use to shut down the loopholes so that this utility imposter scam goes away. And then utilities, unite against scams is an organization that just means periodically to keep tabs on the market and make sure that things aren't flaring up again.
Dan Seguin 38:44
Jared, this is it. Are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?
Jared Lawrence 38:52
Sure. Hit me Dan.
Dan Seguin 38:53
Okay, let's start with the first one. What is your favorite word?
Jared Lawrence 38:58
My favorite word this year is 'Yes." It's a nice say that is because we accomplished so many things on the fly, responding to the pandemic, and the important, things that we as utilities had to do to help take care of our communities last year, that previously the answer would have been either No, or it's going to take us a long time to figure that out. So I feel like I and the rest of the industry have been opened up to the power of possibility. And so this is the year of answering all those possibilities with 'Yes.'
Dan Seguin 39:35
Now tell me Jared, what is one thing you can't live without?
Jared Lawrence 39:40
My morning workout!
Dan Seguin 39:42
Okay, moving on. What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?
Jared Lawrence 39:49
Started making mead. I find it delicious. I'm not sure that those of my family or my wife have the same things.
Dan Seguin 40:01
If you could have one superpower, Jared, what would it be?
Jared Lawrence 40:07
The ability to sleep through the night without waking up for a variety of reasons.
Dan Seguin 40:11
Okay, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?
Jared Lawrence 40:18
I would tell them not to be so shy I was, I was fairly shy. In my pre professional life, and, and even the early years of being in the professional world, and I've come to learn that you miss out on a lot by being shy.
Dan Seguin 40:34
And lastly, what do you currently find interesting in your sector?
Jared Lawrence 40:41
So there are so many interesting things going on. But I think what is most interesting to me, and the reason why I'm excited to be in this industry for at least another 15 years before I'm ready to retire, is that societies have made it one of their central goals to achieve carbon neutrality. And utilities are at the center of that not only in terms of hitting our goals within our companies, but being the ones best positioned to offer solutions to help major industries that are our customers help achieve their carbon neutral goals. And so I think the amount of opportunity and the number of interesting challenges that we face in the utility industry on that front is very exciting to me, and one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to continue to be a utility leader.
Dan Seguin 41:30
Again, thank you for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Jared Lawrence 41:35
I did. This was fantastic. Dan, I hope as you can tell I am really passionate about fighting scammers fighting criminals to take advantage of utility customers and so I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic.
Dan Seguin 41:48
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organization, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.
Guy Lepage 03:16
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:17
Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?
Guy Lepage 03:27
You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.
Dan Seguin 05:13
Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?
Guy Lepage 05:20
I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.
Dan Seguin 06:16
Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?
guy 06:30
Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.
Dan Seguin 10:05
Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?
Guy Lepage 10:21
I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.
Dan Seguin 11:51
Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?
Guy Lepage 12:21
Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.
Dan Seguin 14:20
I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?
Guy Lepage 14:33
That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.
Dan Seguin 15:55
Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?
Guy Lepage 16:26
Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.
17:44
Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?
Guy Lepage 17:55
That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.
Dan Seguin 19:43
Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment
Guy Lepage 19:59
There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.
Dan Seguin 22:39
Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?
Guy Lepage 22:47
There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.
Dan Seguin 25:24
Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?
Guy Lepage 25:47
House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.
Guy Lepage 28:00
Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,
Guy Lepage 28:13
I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.
Dan Seguin 29:52
This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?
Guy Lepage 30:15
Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.
Dan Seguin 32:55
Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?
Guy Lepage 33:05
Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?
33:51
There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.
Dan Seguin 35:34
Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?
Guy Lepage 35:44
I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.
Dan Seguin 36:28
Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guy Lepage 36:35
K, I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 36:36
Okay, cool.
Dan Seguin 36:37
Now, what are you reading right now?
Guy Lepage 36:40
I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.
Dan Seguin 36:54
Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?
Guy Lepage 37:01
No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.
Dan Seguin 37:06
Now, who is someone that you admire?
Guy Lepage 37:09
My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.
Dan Seguin 37:26
Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guy Lepage 37:34
Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.
Dan Seguin 37:53
Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guy Lepage 38:01
I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.
Dan Seguin 38:27
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?
Guy Lepage 38:36
I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.
Dan Seguin 39:02
Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?
Guy Lepage 39:15
redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.
Dan Seguin 39:30
Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Guy Lepage 39:37
Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.
Dan Seguin 39:50
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The industrial revolution was yesterday. The electrical revolution is now. Businesses and consumers alike are working to achieve Canada’s net zero targets. We’re seeing bold leadership across the country, innovative solutions across industries. In episode 102 of thinkenergy, we kick off 2023 with some of our favourite guests from the past year. Picking up from our retrospective, Part 2 highlights insights from experts in the energy sector, including Hydro Ottawa’s President and CEO, Bryce Conrad.
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Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy - the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segui n, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:28
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. Thanks for joining part two of our special holiday podcast as we kick off 2023 with one of the hottest topics in the energy sector net zero. As Canada moves towards its net zero targets, we are seeing companies take bold leadership and adopt new innovations. As they say the Industrial Revolution was yesterday, the electric revolution is now more and more Canadians are working towards their own net zero goals, not only because they feel compelled to do the policy, but because they feel it's the right thing to do. One look at the extreme weather we experienced across Canada last year, may give us a glimpse of why that is. For part two of our special holiday podcast we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero, and how it will shape the future. I've gathered three of my favorite guests from the past year, and what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Justin Rangoon, the Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that can offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive emission heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean energy goals. Energy storage can help meet demand spikes and support wide scale deployment of renewable energy sources. Here's Justin to talk about some of the benefits.
Justin Rangooni 02:21
I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about a bold energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows the electricity grid to inhale. And then when wind stopped blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize what it does if it's part of the overall solution, in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country. And of every size and of all the various technologies available. There's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss army knife to make it work where it has to. So we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is that solution provider for the energy system. So where did you serve can play that critical role of storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or nurses or maybe importing it or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, energy storage can use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for future use. And that's why we're so excited about energy storage.
Dan Seguin 04:19
The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing as countries around the globe are eliminating greenhouse gases and transitioning away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future involves a lot of moving parts especially as it relates to cleaning Canada's energy sector. Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at clean energy Canada shared her thoughts about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.
Marren Smith 04:58
There are three positive changes that I see. One, the costs of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over the last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle, have dropped about 90%, and wind has dropped about 20%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. And the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible, and that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over these last six years, the federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive. And especially with today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to $10 versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards Net Zero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies and continue with a strong economy if we do it right if we act now.
Dan Seguin 08:35
And my last guest is Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa. Yep, my boss. Otherwise, the energy ecosystem is unique, with long standing localized and green generation. In fact, hydro Ottawa is the largest municipally owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Canada, with 131 megawatts of total green generation capacity, enough to power approximately 110,000 homes a year. Bryce joined us on the program early in 2022, to discuss the inspiration behind the company's decision to make its entire operation net zero by 2030. His answer was surprising.
Bryce Conrad 09:28
So YouTube, you can go back and view all these old speeches in March minute.But look, if you go back to JFK, in 1961, so he does this speech before for the joy of the House and Senate. And you know, it's not a long speech, I'd encourage everyone to go watch it. There's about a minute long clip that's irrelevant anyway.And in that speech, he says, we are going to go to the moon before the end of the decade, so he's doing this in 61. Obviously, they went to the moon in 69. So, as part of that he does something that people don't do enough of these days, right? He literally says, we're gonna go to the moon. So that's our objective, and I have no idea how we're gonna get there, I'm paraphrasing him. Obviously, I have no idea how we're gonna get there, the technology doesn't exist, the fuel doesn't exist, the booster rocket technology doesn't exist. And that kind of the capsule necessary to get someone to and from the moon doesn't exist today. So he's making this bold announcement, and then acknowledging that he doesn't know how they're going to do it. And I thought, that's just so quite frankly, refreshing in this day and age where everything is kind of prepackaged, right? Like, we know what we're going to do this next two years, but we already know that we've got it in the bag, and here's how it's going to be done. I like the idea of setting the big, hairy, audacious goal for the company and saying, I've said this to the management team, I have no clue how we're gonna get there. I know what we need to start doing. But I don't know what the answer is. But I work with some of the smartest people in the game. And I know that if, if they're empowered to do this, and we put our minds to this, we will do this, like, you know, and that's what Kennedy counted on 61. And that's lo and behold, but you know what happened? So, when I liken it to the moonshot, it's just that it's the big, hairy, audacious goal, without any real clear roadmap as to how to accomplish that goal. And I think quite frankly, that's what serves us best is when we don't necessarily have the answers we have to make up. We have to figure our way through this sort of stuff. And I see that every day at the company, right? If you look back at how we handled the tornadoes, if you look back at the way we handle the floods, if you look at the way we handle our system, yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive stuff. Yes, there's a lot of this is how we do things. But you know, there are a lot of days we throw out the rulebook, you throw out the manual, and you have to figure your way forward. And that's when this company is at its best. So that's the moonshot.
Dan Seguin 12:06
So thanks for joining me for part two of our advancing Net Zero Holiday special. We'll be back in two weeks on Monday, January 16, to be precise to kick off 2023 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. I'm sure there'll be a few surprises also. Thanks for listening, folks. Happy New Year, everyone. Cheers.
Dan Seguin 12:32
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
We are at the start of an electrical revolution. A spark of change is flaming across the country – renewable energy, electrification, the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. Conversations have become actions. Industries are united, working together to achieve Canada’s net-zero targets. In Episode 101 of the thinkenergy podcast, host Dan Séguin looks back at some of our favourite guests from 2022, sharing insights and ideas about the transition to net zero and how it’s shaping our future.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. With electrification, renewable energy, electric cars and policy to reduce our reliance on oil and gas. 2022 showed that we are at the start of an electrical revolution. 2022 marked a transformational year in numerous industries, the energy sector, the transportation sector, the building and construction sector and the technology sector. All of these industries became allies in the country's goal to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions and work towards achieving Canada's Net Zero targets. The Canadian Net Zero Emissions Accountability Act, which became law on June 29 2021, enshrined in legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But it was this year that we saw the momentum begin in a big way. For part one of our special holiday podcast, we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero and how it will shape the future. I've gathered some of my favorite guests from the past year, and thought I'd reshare what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Caroline Lee, mitigation research lead with the Canadian Climate Institute. According to the Canadian Climate Institute, the country's leading climate change policy research organization, all roads to net zero pass through electricity. I know we've mentioned this many times on the show, but it bears repeating how Canada produces some of the cleanest electricity in the world. 80% of the electricity generated across Canada comes from sources completely free of greenhouse gas emissions, Caroline does an excellent job at defining net zero. And the premise behind the Canadian Climate Institute report, The Big Switch,
Caroline Lee 02:44
Maybe I can start with this first explanation around what the net zero goal actually means, you know, Canada, just recently committed to achieving net zero emissions by 2050. And this is an ambitious goal. And what that means is that Canada has agreed to really zero out our emissions to get our emissions as close as we can to zero, and then whatever emissions are very expensive, or technically very difficult to get out of the economy than we offset in some way. So again, this is an ambitious goal, there's a lot that needs to be done, especially in electricity to support that goal. And the reason why we say all roads to net zero paths through electricity is that when we looked at all the studies that model a trajectory for Canada reaching net zero, there really was no credible path without this switch towards electricity. And without making the generation of electricity cleaner. So we really saw tackling electricity as being critical to the achievement of Canada's netzero goals. And maybe I can just say it and in simple terms, three key reasons why that switch is so important. So first of all, electricity itself when you use it, it doesn't burn fossil fuel, of course, so therefore, it doesn't release greenhouse gas emission. So we all know that if you're driving an Eevee, you're not generating greenhouse gas emissions directly. Now, of course, we also know that the production of electricity can generate emissions. So we can use fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to generate electricity. So that's where you can get some emissions. But what's really positive news in Canada and really around the world is that we're making quite significant progress, especially here in Canada, to reduce those emissions associated with producing electricity. And now that the federal government has a commitment to achieve Net Zero electricity by 2035. The country now has a clear mandate that we're going to be eliminating by and large those emissions associated with producing electricity. So that's a really big thing is that electricity in the future could really be this conduit. for using fully non emitting electricity from the beginning to the end. And then a third reason why electricity is so important is that it's just more efficient. So, driving an electric vehicle is actually three to four times more efficient than using fossil fuels to drive that vehicle. And that's because you lose so much more heat, there's a lot of energy that's wasted when you're combusting fossil fuel. So, because of those three reasons, electricity does seem to play a really critical role in achieving our climate goals.
Dan Seguin 05:31
My next guest is the renowned Catherine Ebru, Executive Director of Destination Zero. Catherine talks about the costs and the rising volatility that exists around the world when it comes to subsidizing fossil fuel sources. Catherine digs into how renewables are not only more reliable, but also more resilient than many people give them credit for.
Catherine Abreu 05:58
The concern over rising energy costs is a huge one. You know, we've actually seen that rear its head pretty substantially this year, in the late half of 2021, with rising energy costs across Europe, relating mostly to the rising costs of gas. And I think actually, a big lesson that we're learning from the energy cost crisis that many parts of Europe and other parts of the world are experiencing right now is that the fossil fuel market is actually quite volatile. And that volatility has impacted Canada quite a bit as a major oil and gas producer already. But it's starting to impact not only, you know, production and jobs related to that production of fossil fuels, it's starting to also now penetrate energy systems that rely on those fossil fuels. And so we need to be correcting for that volatility. And a part of how we do that actually, and this is maybe counterintuitive to a lot of folks, because there's a lot of misguiding rhetoric out there around renewable energy. But part of how we make energy systems more resilient is by incorporating more renewable energy and more distributed renewable energy generation into those systems. And then another important piece is energy efficiency. So you make those energy systems really lean as much as you can, by cutting energy waste, right? So we want to be making sure that we're not losing energy as it's transferred from where it's created to where it's used. We want to make sure that when it's used, it's used as efficiently as possible. And so those investments in energy efficiency help make the energy system more stable. And then when we make that energy system run on renewable energy, and when we're talking about renewable energy, we're talking about a mix here of water, when sun and storage, of course, then we see that there is a new kind of resilience put into that system. Because often those energy sources can help us lock in long term prices that are much more stable than the volatile energy prices associated with fossil fuels. So that is the kind of longer term solution that we're looking to hear about in the long run, that can really offer much lower and more stable energy prices for people. But unfortunately, we've heard a lot of misguided, or I think, intentionally misrepresented rhetoric around renewable energy and having a high cost. And the only reason that it appears to have a high cost is because fossil fuel energy has been subsidized so heavily for the last century by governments, that those fossil fuels tend to have an artificially lower cost. But we're paying for that artificially lower cost as taxpayers. And so part of the equation here is leveling out the playing field between fossil fuels and renewable energy by supporting the growth of renewable energy and stopping subsidies to fossil fuels.
Dan Seguin 09:03
My last guest on part one of our holiday retrospective episode is Robert Horning CEO of the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. Robert joined me back in February of 2022, and talked about why he believes when and solar are Canada's answer to decarbonizing the electricity system. He also details what it's really going to take to achieve Canada's netzero goals.
Robert Hornung 09:35
Well, I think first off, we have to sort of look at some of the research that's been done different studies that have looked at what are the pathways to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions? We've just said it's an enormous challenge. How do we get there? And those studies consistently show that to get to net zero, you have to first and foremost decarbonize electricity production so that you're not producing greenhouse gas emissions from electricity anymore. And then you have to expand that electricity production because you're going to want to use that electricity to substitute for fossil fuels in areas like transportation and in buildings and industries. Now another thing that those studies consistently show is that the majority of that new electricity that we're going to need is going to come from wind and solar. And why is that? The simple reason is because wind and solar are the lowest cost options for new electricity production in the world today. And our vision developed an illustrative scenario, which is consistent with the findings of these netzero studies, which sort of assumes we're going to need to double electricity production, we assume that two thirds of that new electricity production is going to come from wind and solar. And that leads us to the calculation that that means you have to expand wind and solar to be in Canada tenfold in the next 30 years. And that's why it's an urgent call to action. That's a mammoth task. It's achievable. But we have to get started now. I mean, I think we're already starting to see some real evidence of this transition occurring, although we're at an early stage. So in the transportation sector, everyone's aware, we're moving towards a world dominated by electric vehicles in the future, you see it in the choices made by auto manufacturers, consumers, etc. Going forward. But it's really more about electric mobility. You also see a growing number of e-bikes, for example, going forward, we see increasing investments in the electrification of public transportation. So there's a real drive there in terms of the transportation sector. In terms of buildings, heat pumps are going to be critical as a technology that allows us to reduce our reliance on natural gas for heating purposes going forward. And within industry, within heavy industry, we already see announcements being made from steel producers who are switching to electric arc furnaces, the aluminum smelters, but are starting to electrify and across all of those areas, electrification is not the answer for everything. There, there are applications where electricity is not going to be the solution. But for many of those applications, you can actually use clean electricity to produce hydrogen, green hydrogen if it's produced from renewable electricity. And that green hydrogen can then be used to support things like freight transportation, or long distance transportation, or other industrial processes. So electricity really will have a central role to play. And again, we're starting to see that transition occur. But again, we have to accelerate those efforts especially if we're going to achieve our targets.
Dan Seguin 12:37
Net zero is going to continue to be a hot topic of conversations and 2023. Thanks for joining me for part one of our advancing Net Zero holiday special. Tune in on January 2 For part two. And thanks for listening, folks. Have a happy and safe holiday everyone. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The energy sector is evolving at lightning speed, and customer expectations are at an all-time high. As are concerns about electricity itself – how it’s produced, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how efficiently it’s powering our lives. So, how are utilities planning to meet expectations and address these concerns? In episode 100 of the thinkenergy podcast, we sit down with Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Customer Officer, Julie Lupinacci, to discuss what electricity customers want and the solutions we’re delivering.
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Think_Energy_Podcast_EP100_V2
What Electricity Customers Want
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
customers, ottawa, working, hydro, people, electricity, programs, julie, city, planning, energy, pandemic, talk, utilities, component, industry, happening, community, cases, helping
SPEAKERS
Dan Seguin, Julie Lupinacci
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show marks the 100th podcast episode. Woohoo. It's hard to believe that we've already reached this milestone. I want to thank everyone that has worked behind the scenes on the show, our incredible guests who graciously share their time and expertise. And of course, dear listener, thank you for tuning into our program. It's truly been an honor for me to share information about the energy sector and all of the amazing people that work in this industry. So with that, let's get on with today's 100th podcast episode. As we discussed over many interviews, the energy landscape is evolving at lightning speed. Those innovations and changes are coming fast and furious. And there's a lot for customers to absorb. It's clear that perhaps more than at any other time in history, customers are thinking about their electricity, how it's made, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how they can be more in control of it to power their lives. What customers want and expect is changing the electricity sector. It's changing how utilities do business, how they communicate, and what service offerings they provide. customer expectations have never been higher, and utilities must evolve, innovate and provide exceptional expertise, programs and technology to give customers what they want and expect from a modern utility from smart home tech that can help customers manage their device and overall consumption to home generation technology like solar panels, batteries for energy storage, and incentives for installing goes renewables and even how to better prepare for a changing climate, more storms and an increase in frequent and prolonged power outages. So, here's today's big question. How are utilities planning to meet the expectations of today's customer and their needs? Today's guest is my boss, Julie Lupinacci. As the Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, Julie is responsible for developing and implementing the customer strategy, transforming the total customer experience and guiding the direction of the business in terms of customer needs. She provides oversight for customer service marketing, product development, external communications, Public Affairs, corporate reputation, and the overall branding strategies. With more than 15 years in Customer Care, sales and marketing, Julie has a wide background in business including project management, customer and vendor relations, international partner program management, procurement, sales, marketing, and program development. Wow. Julie, thanks for joining us today. Now, you've been in the electricity industry approximately five years now, maybe a little more in comparison to your experience with customers in other industries? How are electricity customers different? How are their needs unique?
Julie Lupinacci 04:11
Yeah, so it's been interesting. And when I when I got this question, I was thinking back on the last five years and how much I've learned about the industry and learn about our customers in particular and I would say the basis of what's different is is the industry we're in right like Hydro Ottawa is a this is essentially provides an essential service to our customers, which didn't happen in my previous in my previous world. So the fact that the customers rely on us for a product that is so essential in so many aspects of their lives. For some customers, it's a matter of life and death, right? That in itself changes how we work with our customers and what their needs are, and what we need to support. So that reality is something that we have to hold in the forefront of everything that we do. The very nature of what customers need from us makes that different, right? The timelines of what they need are tighter. And the criticality of our communications to customers becomes even more heightened. Whether it be a storm, or an outage, or an outage at one person's house, like that doesn't matter, the customer is out of what we need to provide. And the criticality of getting that back in a very condensed time frame, in order for that customer to continue moving forward, becomes essential. So everything becomes a lot tighter and more critical. And I would say the other component of what we provide, it's not a, in some cases, customers don't have a choice right on whether they need electricity or not, like I guess in fundamentally, they could figure that out. But if you've come to rely on electricity for your daily needs, and to run your households, the fact that electricity is now part of your requirements, you don't get to have a choice necessarily do I? Do I want electricity today or tomorrow to put my lights on? Affordability becomes a big component. And it's one that we need to think about for our customers: the choices on how we develop the grid, how we evolve as an organization, we need to keep affordability, sustainability, and the fact that energy needs to be attainable for our customers that has to guide what we do. And that's not true for every of every industry, and definitely not true for the previous ones I've worked for.
Dan Seguin 06:53
Julie, what are the three biggest issues for electricity customers right now?
Julie Lupinacci 07:01
Yeah, I think right now, in the November 2022, or December 2022, as this airs, affordability is probably front of mind, for most customers, the share of wallet is just not going as far with the cost of inflation. I think that's probably the primary issue for electricity customers right now. But I would say that a close second is, what the reliability of this electricity is. So the climate adaptation that we are doing as an entire city, as we're looking at what you know, more extreme weather events that are coming, the reliability of what we provide is probably a close second, right? So they want to be able to afford the commodity that is coming into their house. But they also want to be able to rely on it. And as they're making choices for what their energy future is going to be, as they're making choices about what car they're going to be purchasing next, as they're going to make choices for how they're going to heat and cool their home and making choices about fuel sources. You want to make sure that you're choosing what's reliable and that you know, reliability is there. So I think affordability and reliability are close one and two. And that is sustainable, right? We've got a lot of people that are thinking about their future, their carbon footprint, their net zero. So I think people are looking at how I conserve my energy usage? How am I smart about what I'm doing? And how am I making sure that I'm choosing things that are going to be there for the long haul, right and looking for something that's sustainable, that's good for our planet, but it's going to be around and something that they can count on. Okay,
Dan Seguin 08:53
Now I have a follow up question. What are some of the ways that hydro Ottawa is addressing those customer issues?
Julie Lupinacci 08:59
Yeah, so we're doing a number of different things. So one, I think how we put together plans for the growth of the grid, how we put plans to maintain the grid and evolve the grid is definitely something that we look at with those three things in mind. But also from a customer perspective, we are looking at bringing programs to them to help them have more access and more readily access to that information. So get a hold of their data so they can start making decisions. We're working with the Ministry of Energy on different pricing programs that might make sense according to the different behaviors, not everybody has the same lifestyle. Not everybody operates only you know, in the evenings in their house and people in especially during the pandemic like we have with we've seen very different lifestyle, and workdays come to be. So we're really well Looking at all of those things that are happening here in Ottawa, and marrying programs that make sense both from a pricing perspective, as well as energy choice. So looking at different Evie programs that we are bringing forward, looking at different energy efficiency programs that might be there and getting information into the hands of customers. In particular, there's been a lot of conversation over the last couple years, I'd say maybe a little bit more about netzero. And with the announcements the federal government, provincial, government and even municipal government have made customers are thinking about how they play in that. And there's a lot of questions and hydro Ottawa is providing information to those customers to be able to help them to be informed of what's possible, and then help give programs to get them on pathways to get there for themselves.
Dan Seguin 10:52
We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major major weather events, these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?
Julie Lupinacci 11:10
Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the 98’ Ice Storm. And I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would, what I would say is hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our chief electricity distribution officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof, the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology, so that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple of minutes of a storm hitting, but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out. And we are looking through and working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system again through through whether it's SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently right and if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out make sure phones are charged make sure that you've got blankets make sure you know where your your flashlights and your your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's you know, there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydro ottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted -Sorry Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program. This was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on, either to their house or to the community.
Dan Seguin 15:32
Now telling me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies? And outages?
Julie Lupinacci 15:42
Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do . I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days, when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our systems in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But what are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place, but you know where these flashlights are right? If anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights, and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would, I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't, I won't run them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database, or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you in your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like Hydro Ottawa is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power is out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it?
Dan Seguin 17:49
Okay, moving on. Hydro Ottawa released its 2021- 2025 strategic direction. Why is that five year plan important? And what are the highlights from a customer perspective that customers should be aware of? Yeah,
Julie Lupinacci 18:08
I think any organization that's not looking five years out, so it's going to be really awakened as you start to figure out what capital planning looks like. Like it doesn't take. You can't build a substation overnight. You cannot bring additional capacity into a city without some plans. And our strategic direction really helps us do that. And it helps put some guideposts in place with regards to keeping us focused, right. There's a lot of new technology that makes shiny things that people want. But really having a strategic direction that allows us to go back to what that Northstar is, what those guiding points are, what is that end goal that we're trying to get to is really important, because cities aren't planned on a dime. And neither is the grid that supports those cities. So that five year plan really looks and works with the city to say, Where are you going? How is growth happening? And then how do we support that? And then, in in line with this strategic direction, we've also taken a very, very big leadership role in in setting ourselves up for net zero and not just us as as as hydro Ottawa, but as a partner with the city of Ottawa as a integral component of the Ontario electricity grid, an integral component of the Canadian grid. And I think that comes with a responsibility to make sure that we're looking forward and making the decisions that have to happen today for some of those assets that are going to be around for that 2050 goal that Canada has. So we're really focused on maintaining the reliability that we've been seeing over the last decade. We've had great reliability here in Ottawa despite some of the storms that have happened. Our reliability numbers continue to Be strong. So making sure that we're continuing to evolve in a smart way. And making sure that we maintain that reliability in line with the growth that's happening in the city, right, where we're seeing not only expansion into some of the other, you know, we're seeing suburbs butting up against each other now, right. And, you know, I'm not even sure if there's a true delineation between Canada and Stittsville. Sometimes, because it's like a bridge, you just go over one, one street, and now you're in the different suburbs. So, that blurring that's happening is fine. So that's the growth that's happening and expanding of the city. But we're also densifying some of the downtown core areas, so we're going upwards. And that requires a different type of planning on the infrastructure that already exists. We need to grow that infrastructure, we need to change how we're adopting those arrows potentially, and then look at planning for vehicle switching from gas to EVs. Right? So the electric, the electric vehicles, how do we support that growth? How do we support some of the growth with buildings that are converting from gas to electricity, or some of the new buildings that are looking at different technology and making sure that as they're building, the capacity is there. So all of those things are aligned within that, that we have an eight point strategy that's there. And, and the customer continues to be the center of that strategy? So as we're making decisions, we're thinking of it through that customer lens? And how is the customer going to be impacted? How is the customer going to work with us, and let's make sure that we're spending money and time and focus energy on ensuring that the electricity grid is there for the needs of the future. And then the last piece that I would put is, we're really looking at streamlining processes for our customers, right, there's a lot of steps that are in place. And in some of those, those process flows, that in some cases, technology allows us to leapfrog for our customers. Many customers don't want to talk to us directly anymore. So they want to use chat functionality, or they want to just be able to go and search a Frequently Asked Questions area, or get a how to documents sent to them so that they can do it, in some cases themselves. And we are hearing that from our customers. And we are taking the steps to make sure that we streamline those processes for that,
Dan Seguin 22:25
Julie, what role does Hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions for customers to reduce their consumption and greenhouse gas emissions?
Julie Lupinacci 22:38
So, I think that we have a big responsibility there to keep people informed. I think awareness is pretty key when it comes to energy efficiency. And knowing where you're starting from, I think is a big component. So as utilities, I think we need to constantly ask ourselves, where is the customer in, in their knowledge of what we're trying to get them to do or what they're needing to do or what they're wanting to do. So I would hazard a guess that not many people have a true understanding of what their carbon footprint is, I would hazard a guess that we don't all know what our emission baseline is. So asking people to do something to reduce that. And they don't know what their baseline is, I think I think that's a misstep. So utilities, in general, I think have a responsibility to help customers understand how to do that calculation. And then identify pathways and programs that they can make choices that help enrich them towards what they're trying to do. So in some cases, it's painting the picture of what that future looks like, giving them choices of what the future can look like. And then once the customer chooses that, help them to make decisions to get them closer to that. So whether that be having a digital footprint with us, right reducing the need for us to mail a bill. So they're going off of paper and onto an email bill or coming to a website to get all of the details behind their bill. I think helping them understand what that impact is, is important. Making sure that we are doing sustainable business practices for our customers is important as well, right? Like we've made different choices in our building with regards to how we process waste, how we are moving around the city, what we do, when we have trucks that may not be Eevee. There may not be an Eevee model ready for the trucks that we need. But how are we planning for that to bring in those sustainable business practices? How are we leveraging tools to be able to take not necessarily like I'm unnecessary steps out of the process, whether it be a new material that a lot, that's a more sustainable material that doesn't have us cutting down trees or others. Like I think there's some things that we are looking at that to make choices about what that what that future is going to look like. And I think the other component that we have as utilities is we need to be leaders in the field, right, we need to look at what's happening, not just here in Canada, but there are other jurisdictions around this globe that have been doing conservation because they've needed to do conservation. And and so they've, they've, I don't want to say perfected it, but they've advanced it significantly. And in some cases, we can leapfrog what their program is to an even better program with potentially new technology or even a different focus. So we're looking at, we're looking into Europe, and what are they doing with regards to conservation? What are they doing with regards to energy efficiency? And how can we take what they're doing and adopt it here. And so I think utilities have a obligation to look outside of our own four walls, look outside of our province, even look inside of our country to see what are some of those things that are working elsewhere, that can be brought here for our customers.
Dan Seguin 26:21
Now, wondering if you could outline some initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help its customers in that area?
Julie Lupinacci 26:30
Sure, there's a whole load of ones that we can talk to, and I would encourage you to follow our blog, because we talk about a lot of those pieces and share some of those details in greater detail. And some of the case studies that we do share, may have a direct impact on some other customers. And you would see how that translates into your business or interior household. But we work very closely with the City of Ottawa on their energy evolution file. And taking a look at everything from where public EV chargers need to be set up, talking to them about how to retrofit their own buildings and be future proofed from and have a smart energy component to that, talking about how we build better communities. So we're there talking with them at the planning stages of that. So those are things that we do with the city, we are looking at distributed energy resources in a very thoughtful and deliberate way, and seeing how we can leverage some of the distributed energy resources that exist in our city today, how we align it to the grid, and how we use these distributed energy resources to bridge the evolution that's needed to be able to get to that future where the capacity need is, is maybe even three times what we're seeing today. So how are we planning for that with traditional assets? But also how can we bridge and leverage distributed energy resources that exist and will exist in our service territory? So we're doing that tons of education says, as I talked about, whether you look at our blogs, the newsletters that go out, read them, there's some really cool things and ideas that are in there for you as residential customers, and even commercial customers. We had an amazing symposium where we just started some of the conversation about what these different projects and initiatives are that we're doing with customers and can do with customers. You look at the Zibi Community, right downtown, like right behind shudder right beside sheer falls and behind the parliament. And that community itself is built completely differently, right, looking at using renewable energy, looking at using the steam off of Kruger that's just across the river, and how that heats the building and heats the community. And then looking at, you know, from an environmental footprint, what we did at a shelter falls with the eel ladder and helping with the eel migratory patterns is one element. We have a new substation in barre haven where we were very deliberate and kept a parcel of that land for a pollinator meadow. And really looking at how we promote the pollinators to be in the area that helped that particular growth. And then a number of conservation programs that we're working with with either the ISO which is our Independent Electricity System, distributor, or off operator and working with them and the Ministry of Energy on here are some programs that we see that can help bridge a defer capital investments because the capacity is here and we're sharing the capacity a little bit different, and even encouraged people to conserve energy, you know, not leaving their lights on not leaving motors running, generators, running, and all kinds of different programs that we can look at from that perspective. So lots of pilots, lots of different programs that are in flight and pilots to come.
Dan Seguin 29:59
What new and innovative plans are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to customers? And what hydro Ottawa offers?
Julie Lupinacci 30:12
Yeah, so I think I mentioned our, our battery loan program, you know that that was a one that we had thought would be a one and done type of thing during, during the early days of the pandemic. And the results that we saw on that program just made it one that we don't see going away anymore. So looking at continuing to evolve that program and scale it up. So I think that would be, you know, a short term. One. Another short term one is some of the Eevee programs that we're working on, that are coming to market with regards to being able to not only see where the EVs are coming up, but predict where the next EVs are going to be coming in. And even having a bit of a different relationship with those Eevee owners. So some type of a demand response program, you'll see that too short to mid term. With regards to helping customers understand that if they defer or delay charging their car until the evening, there might be a cost benefit, but also some benefit to us overall. So I think you'll see a lot of those kinds of demand response pilots to really see how and what we need to do, and engage our community and help us get there, right? We can't do this as single, single folks, we need to do this as a full community looking towards that future. And long term, I think you'll see some of those continuing to innovate. With regards to just building smarter communities, renewables within communities, you'll look at a different way of doing some substation work, and bringing that power here into the city of Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 31:51
Now, in 2021, hydro Ottawa announced that it will achieve Net Zero operations by 2030. How will this help or improve the lives of Ottawa residents?
Julie Lupinacci 32:04
It's a very philosophical question in some cases, because I think there's still a lot of misconception or confusion around what net zero means, right? And people think that going to net zero means there's no emissions. And that's not true. Net Zero means that we are becoming carbon neutral or emission neutral. So we may emit some emissions on one side of the business. But we're, we're offsetting in another area. So I think, I think it's a few different things. I think it gets us off thinking in a very different way. It helps to stimulate a conversation that is much needed to be able to advance. And I think we have a corporate responsibility to move that forward here within the City of Ottawa, especially being the capital of Ottawa, when you have your Prime Ministers sit up there and say, we're going to be net zero by 2050. And nobody moves until 2049. It's not going to work great. So people need to move early. And I think hydro Ottawa has demonstrated a lot of those advancements towards this net zero operations even in advance of, of when we announced it, right, like a lot of some of what we were doing a lot of what we were doing sorry, was really in play before that we had a very different way of building our our generation downtown Ottawa and we took the environment into account, we took a very accountable, measured approach to how we were doing our development and you're gonna see that continue in what we do. As we build substations, how do we do that to make sure that we have the least impact on the environment, and that we leave the space that we're in as good or better is really what we're trying to do than that have been when we got there, I look at the the Cambrian substation and bar Haven, and it is better than when we put our plant there because we have a pollinator meadow that's very deliberate, and what we're doing, we're taking care of the lands that are that are there, and you're gonna see that happen throughout. And it's all in for that larger view. With regards to Ottawa residents, I think it's important for them to know that they have a utility provider that cares about that as much as they do. And that are putting very thoughtful approach to how we go about doing things and we're not just doing it for the sake of doing it it means something this last spring, although small, in its in its in its infancy and I see it growing you know, we we planted trees, as part of our employees as part of their volunteer day that they get with the company went out into community and planted trees in an area that was where they were much needed. So I think you'll see a lot of those types of initiatives all happening within the city and with our company.
Dan Seguin 35:04
Julie, is this what customers expect from a modern utility? What other ways is hydro Ottawa innovating?
Julie Lupinacci 35:14
Yeah, I think expectations on on utilities as well as most organizations is changing significantly, customers are wanting organizations, corporations to not just be good corporate citizens, but to be accountable for the decisions and the activities that they do to be transparent, and why we're making those decisions, and how we're making those decisions. So when we talk about bringing in renewables, when we talk about being ready for electric vehicles, when we talk about bringing an energy management expertise into the area, it's it's really meant to make sure that customers have the information that they're already asking for, and that they're having information from a somewhat neutral party, right. In some cases, we're not looking at pushing one way or another, but making sure that people are informed to make the best decisions, and know what the outcomes are. And I think we're uniquely positioned to do that. There's a lot of people that might sell renewables, and they help install solar panels. And we're not looking to replace any of those, those people like it takes all kinds to make these things, all kinds of components in the supply chain to make this come to reality. But I think there is a natural space for hydro Ottawa to be there to help inform customers on how to do this effectively, what this means to them, like adding solar panels to your rooftop has complications. And it also has implications for you as a homeowner. And I think it's important that people be informed as they're making those decisions to put two and two together so that they don't, later on, find out that, you know, use this example, they bought an Eevee. And they bring it home, and they have nowhere to plug it in. Because their condo Corporation isn't set up effectively. There's nowhere for them to do public charging systems, I think that we need to make sure that we're helping customers make those informed decisions, and how we can do that together. So things around, like you mentioned, cybersecurity, and energy management, one of our conversations, and we're getting in, we're playing a big role in that, like, I think if we would be naive to think that customers don't expect us to have some of the best cybersecurity programs in place we are, are the custodians of the network that makes sure that they have energy to run their lives and electricity to run their lives. And I mentioned at the beginning of this, that some people count on that to stay alive. So that is of utmost importance, and a certainty that we need to play a space in that. And then energy management, like who you turn to other than somebody is really accountable to make sure that energy comes to your house, to be able to provide that expertise and help you through that and guide you through that process.
Dan Seguin 38:19
Now, what are some community carbon reduction projects that hydro Ottawa has been involved in, that customers might not be aware of?
Julie Lupinacci 38:29
Yeah, so hydro Ottawa has been working with the city and a lot of customers around the Ottawa area to be able to help them bring some of the carbon reduction projects that they have to life and to reality. So one of the big ones that I think maybe will touch everybody in the city of Ottawa is streetlight conversions. So we converted them all the street lights to LEDs, so that provided a significant cost savings to the City of Ottawa with regards to their energy bill, but in most cases provided better lighting, to the city streets, and has an element of controls in those lights to be able to allow the city to turn them up or down depending right so there's some technology that's built into those city lights, and all done through cost savings to the to the city overall. So I think that that was a big one that folks may not know about. We have been working with the city on their electric buses and bringing that vision to fruition. Electric buses, although we're not in the bus business, we are in the business now to support getting electricity to those buses and to where they need it and planning where those bus resting stations are to recharge, making sure there's enough in electricity capacity going into the main headquarters where the buses park at night, do their maintenance, make sure that they get charged up for the routes and working to make sure that they have everything there at To add a Edie, affordable process for the city, right, making sure that we're looking at, at this model that we worked on with the city to make sure that hydro water was working and supporting everything up to that charger. And the city's buses are running the routes, but we're, you know, we're staying in our lanes with regards to core competency, but making sure that we're bringing that vision to reality. And we're doing that same thing with the airport. No, we're not in the flight business. But we are in the business of making sure that as airports, specifically the airport here in Ottawa, are looking at electrifying everything under the wing, making sure doing fuel switching even in their passenger terminals. So you know, look at lighting solutions all across, whether it's, you know, the parking garage or in the building, you know, working with the report on helping them get to their net zero commitments, and making sure that we have the expertise brought in. Sometimes it comes with, you know, understanding what different programs are out there and marrying those up. And we do that. And then the last one, I think we've been working with some customers like the airport, so the airport's not a standalone, customer story. We've got a number of those stories that we're working with customers to do. We're working with Ottawa police services to be able to help look at their fleets and how do you support moving, moving their fleets to electric vehicles and other other customers that are like that? And then looking and working with the City of Ottawa on public charging stations? Where would these be, you know, our new mayor, as part of his campaign talked about public charging stations talked about ebike charging stations, and we're working hand in hand with them to help bring those visions and those plans to reality that is not just to talk, but it is bringing those projects to life.
Dan Seguin 41:59
Okay, Julie, let's rewind and go back to the strategic plan. What are the key change drivers that are influencing hydro Ottawa is future planning.
Julie Lupinacci 42:10
So we've used a five-d framework in our strategic direction, because these are the drivers that are not just impacting our industry, but they're impacting everybody. And they're, they're things that are happening, and you'd have to understand what it is and then look at your own business and then how you support customers. So the customers need to be aware as well. So we're really looking at these five days. So the first one is decarbonisation. You know, I think we've had a lot of that conversation so far. It needs to be part of our programs, it needs to be part of our future design, it needs to be part of our discussions with customers. The second one is digitization. And this one has been around for a while, right, like people have been migrating to, to using electronics, like E bills, emails versus you know, getting your your bill in the mail, paying through through some type of paper pay service versus sending in a check, or coming in to drop off money at hydro. We haven't done that for a while. But those are pathways to this digitization. And I would say it's going further than that. We're looking at how to make sure that customers have access to their data through a digital output? How can they connect their systems to that to make some decisions for them? So digitization is a big one for us. Not just on the customer front? I would say how we're developing our systems as well. Decentralization is one of those third G's that people are looking at. And I always laugh because industries go through centralization, decentralization. It's kind of a little bit of a flux piece that happens. But we are in a decentralization component because they think the reality of an Ottawa is in the ecosystem that we have. It's a pretty vast city, like, you know, from a miles long miles wide component. It's vast. It's not as big as some of the service territories that you know, like Hydro Quebec takes care of the entire province. But it's vast enough that you would think why are we decentralizing? But there's the reality of things like the storm that bring it to light that you need some loops within the system that are centered around where people are living and making sure that we can have some redundancy in different areas. So we are looking at that. And what we do is diversification diversifying. Like we talked about overhead underground a lot this year, especially after the storms. That's one form of diversification. But there's also looking at how do you incorporate renewables? It's a different type of energy production. How do you incorporate solar in a different way in a very thoughtful way and I can be stressed enough because you can't just put solar across the entire city and think that that's going to work right, you need to be able to integrate those pieces, right? If you want that energy future, you have to integrate solar into the existing grid, and look at how we do this as a community based component. So diversification is definitely leading a lot of discussions here. And what we do, and the last one is demographics that the city is changing. You know, we used to be English, French only, we have different languages that are coming to be so that, you know, like, that's the basics of it. But also taking a look at the changing demographics of the workplace, the changing demographics of where people are working, and how people are working, like demographics is a little bit different. Right? There's, you know, there's a socio graphic component to that, or a psycho psychographic component that comes into that as well, that we're looking at how we speak to customers? How do we make sure that they have information? What are we making sure that we're doing when we plan work, right? Like we have to do maintenance on our system? How do we do that support, support our customers, so all five of those DS, really our part of how we evaluate the work of the projects that we get involved in?
Dan Seguin 46:18
What has been the impact of the pandemic on electricity customers, and how has that influenced your role, and also hydro Auto has relationship with its customers,
Julie Lupinacci 46:30
The pandemic has, I think, thrown a very different work life reality here. Ottawa, for the most part, did not see the unemployment rates as some of the other cities across Canada. So in some cases, we've been fortunate, but the impacts are still there. So for the utility, and I talked about it in the previous question a little bit, but for the utility, how we go about doing our work matters more. Now, I would say, you know, coming through the pandemic, it matters more, because when we used to plan work on our grid, we used to plan it during the day. So we would go into a community. And we would know that the bulk of the customers in that community were at work between nine and five, let's say or nine and three. And we could get a lot of work done without really impacting customers. And now, it's not like those homes have become daycares, not just during the pandemic, but as a, as a perpetual thing. Now, right, we've got hybrid work components, so you can't decide that this or you can't even hazard an educated guess that this community is going to be predominantly out between these hours on this day, like that just doesn't, that doesn't happen anymore. So working with customers and giving them more advanced notice, in some cases, more, making sure that they get this information in a timely manner so that they can plan around it the same way that we're planning is super critical. And I would say that, ultimately, the biggest change that we've seen with our customers is making sure that we can continue to do the work with the least impact to our customers. And I think that's why we talked about the battery loan program. That's why it's become such an important piece of the future that our customers will not be able to give it to everybody. But you know, at least it's a program that will kind of look at how we can evolve and be able to support our customers through those types.
Dan Seguin 48:41
Okay, Julie, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some for you. Are you ready?
Julie Lupinacci 48:50
I am. Okay, Julie,
Dan Seguin 48:52
What are you reading right now?
Julie Lupinacci 48:53
I'm actually reading two books right now. One is called Ed Mylett The Power of One More, which is a pretty inspirational story that was based on his father just doing one more thing. One more minute talking to a customer reaching out to one more customer. It's kind of a really cool dynamic when you pull it into a workspace, and the other one is Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart. I'm reading that as part of our we had a lot of conversations about crisis, communication and emotion and Atlas of the heart was one of those recommendations. So I have taken her up on that.
Dan Seguin 49:27
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one?
Julie Lupinacci 49:32
Yeah, I don't know if I thought this one 100% through but I think I would say Unstoppable. Maybe Unsinkable Boat.
Dan Seguin 49:43
Okay, let's move on to the next one. Who is someone that you admire?
Julie Lupinacci 49:46
That so many people to choose from? But here I'd say my mom, she's a powerhouse. She's mastered the balance of staying calm, and keeping calm even in the craziness of the chaos. She has that ability to fight kind of to find a path forward for people and during insanely stressful situations, so she like, reaches down and likes to pick people up gently, sometimes sometimes not so gently, and gives you a good kick in the butt, you know, to get you into overdrive when needed. So if I could, if I could garner some of that into who I am, I think I think that would be amazing.
Dan Seguin 50:21
Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Julie Lupinacci 50:27
Yeah, this is, this is a hard one for me to put into words. But let me see if I can take, again, the chaos of some of these weather events that we've seen, like I've witnessed our team go from full throttle heads down, like almost militant robotic work mode, trying to get the power back on. And they can stop in those tracks and become this completely empathetic supportive, human being to some of the most vulnerable people that they they encounter, whether it be somebody who they see is needing help to shovel their driveway because they're struggling or, you know, a child comes up to them with a with a bunch of cards to give to hydro auto, because they're their classmates made them in in class, and they want to give them to them. And they're right, coming up right to a workstation, like I see this switch happen on a dime. And in my opinion, it's so magical. So I guess in my opinion, that would be pure via pure magic moment.
Dan Seguin 51:28
Okay, next one here, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Julie Lupinacci 51:35
Yeah, as a single parent, I think it's easy for me to say something like anytime the schools were doing virtual learning and trying to juggle, juggle all of you know, work. Being a teacher is the hardest job in the world. Especially in some of those, with with some of those kids that just can't sit still, which is, which is my son. But I would have to say the hardest part, for me, has been witnessing folks who are struggling, trying to get back on their feet, whether that be financially, but more so I would say struggling to get back on their feet mentally coming out of the pandemic. Okay,
Dan Seguin 52:13
moving on. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV. What are your favorite movies or shows?
Julie Lupinacci 52:23
It's funny because I saw this. And I would say, yes, that's a true statement. But I haven't been watching a lot of Netflix and TV, but my family Friday Night Movie go twos, these last few weeks has been the Home Alone series. And I don't know why. Coming up to Christmas. I guess that's what it is. But home alone has been the movie. I think we're up to the third one or fourth one now at our Friday movie nights.
Dan Seguin 52:47
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry, our industry right now?
Julie Lupinacci 52:53
Oh, geez, what's not exciting. We're I think we're in a pivotal moment and the energy industry, like a kind of table clearing moment when we're working across boundaries, like I'm talking about physical boundaries, cross fuel providers cross. The local distributor companies talking together across energy providers, you know, private, public energy providers have all kinds of different solutions out there. Everybody's at this table working to develop solutions. It's such an exciting time, because it's the egos in some cases get completely put outside and just really focused on the same goal on trying to get us to that smart, sustainable, affordable energy future. And to me, that is absolutely the most exciting part of our industry right now. Well, Julie,
Dan Seguin 53:41
we've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and our organization, how could they connect?
Julie Lupinacci 53:54
So I am on LinkedIn. So you can find me Julie Lupinacci at LinkedIn, or you can connect right through our website. So if you send something through there, saying you want to talk to me, it'll find its way to me directly.
Dan Seguin 54:08
Again, Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Julie Lupinacci 54:12
I did.
Dan Seguin 54:14
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
As Canadians depend more and more on an electrified grid, safety and reliability are at the core of the conversation. How are we improving the grid’s resilience to climate change and extreme weather? How are we accommodating increased capacity as more people electrify their lives? In episode 99 of thinkenergy, we discuss future proofing the grid and what exactly that means with Guillaume Paradis, Chief Electricity Distribution Officer at Hydro Ottawa.
Related links
Guillaume Paradis, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721/
Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety
Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:28
Hey, everyone, welcome back. There's a great analogy I read recently that compared future proofing the electricity grid to Wayne Gretzky. And since this is our 99th episode, woohoo, it just seems fitting that we make our reference to the great one. What made Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player of all time, was not his speed or the uncanny accuracy of his shots, but rather his ability to predict where the puck was going to be an instant before it arrived. utilities like Wayne Gretzky have the ability to anticipate events and predict patterns that can make them more prepared for extreme weather events as a utility, planning and predicting the future is part of our DNA. And as we all prepare to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the feds, provincial and municipal governments, we are seeing a lot of future planning happening to make the electricity system as clean and as resilient as possible. And part of that is predicting what the future will look like, from what energy sources will power our electricity supply, but also what kind of challenges like electrification and threats like extreme weather we will face? So here's today's big question. How can utilities earn customer confidence as they transition towards an electrified grid that can also withstand unpredictable weather to safely and reliably deliver energy. Today's guest is Guillaume packaging. As the chief electricity distribution officer at hydro Ottawa, Guillaume is responsible for planning, design, operations, constructions and maintenance of our nation's capitol electrical power distribution system. In his role, Guillaume leads a team directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to hydro Ottawa customers. Guillaume has over a decade of industry experience in progressive leadership roles ranging from research program management, to distribution planning, asset management, design, and construction. Thanks for joining us on the show today.
Guillaume Paradis 02:56
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 02:57
You've been in the industry for more than a decade now, what's been the biggest change or shift you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 03:05
So what I'd say has been the most significant change over that time period is that we've actually gone from talking about very exciting things and future focus opportunities. So we've gone from talking about them to actually getting to implement them. So some of the things that were on the horizon 10 years ago, and 15 years ago, in fact, were related to electric vehicles, the proliferation of battery storage technology, the development of the smart grid, and over that period of time, through those conversations, we've actually been able to shift the industry to a place where we're actually delivering on some of those promises. So that's very, very exciting. It's a massive challenge for everyone involved, but unlocks a whole series of possibilities, that when I started my career, we were only talking and thinking about,
Dan Seguin 04:08
Okay, what does future proofing the electricity grid really mean? What kind of plans and predictions are you making to help the grid withstand climate change?
Guillaume Paradis 04:20
So future proofing is an interesting one, because, you know, ultimately, all of your success depends on your ability to forecast and forecasting. Currently, with the changing landscape with the pace at which policy is being updated, refreshed, and modified, it is quite challenging. So we've gone from an environment where you could look at decade's worth of data, use a little bit of economic information, and forecasts and combine those things into what would turn out to be a pretty useful and fairly accurate prediction of what your system would be required to deliver. So we've gone from that to an environment where in a matter of, you know, sometimes months, you know, the underlying basis for your predictions as totally been changed. And you have, or you're having to revisit your assumptions from, frankly, a quarter to the next. So, future proofing right now, in my mind is about, you know, keeping an eye out for what's coming. So being able to anticipate what's ahead, being able to stay abreast of all the trends, making, what I would call incremental adjustments to our practices today that ensure that if, and when the future, you know, more specifically crystallizes, we can take advantage of the opportunities, and we're not having to redo too much work, but also without betting too much on one outcome, where we may not have the certainty of what's ahead. So, you know, that's true when you look at the full landscape. And specifically, when we're looking at the predictions around climate change, it's about at a minimum, being very responsive to the more recent events. So using that to update your predictions. And recently, unfortunately, with respect to climate, you know, we've seen what would have been deemed, you know, one in 1000, or one in 100 year events occur at a frequency that far exceeds, you know, what predictions would have called for. And we have to recognize that as being the new trend, despite not having the benefit of 100 years of events in that new paradigm that we find ourselves in. So, you know, from a climate standpoint, I think we have to be a little farther out, and expect that recent data points actually represent the new reality, as opposed to relying on the longer trend that we would like to count on, which is 50-100 years or beyond. So from a climate standpoint, at this point, our assumption is, you know, what's happened recently looks a lot more like what's expected to happen to us in the next few years. And in fact, you know, we're looking to build a little bit of contingency or buffer into our predictions, assuming that it might get a little worse.
Dan Seguin 07:40
Now, why does future proofing the grid go hand in hand with electrification, and clean energy,
Guillaume Paradis 07:48
So electrification and clean energy come down to, in my view, increasing our society's resilience, resilience and dependence on our electricity infrastructure. So, you know, for many years now, many decades, the electricity system has been the underpinning of our modern society. But even more so as we move more of our energy use to the electricity system, it becomes paramount ensure that the infrastructure we have is able to support and maintain with a high level of redundancy, you know, that modern lifestyle where more of what we do is electrified, clean energy, in its various forms, you know, supports our ability to electrify more of our activities, but also from a planning standpoint introduces a bit of a new challenge, in terms of intermittency. And so our ability to have an underlying asset base distribution system or transmission system that is highly redundant and highly secure, to enable and support the use of renewable energy is critical. And so that's where future proofing is really about, you know, ensuring that the bet we're making as a society, which is electrifying to improve the outlook on our climate change objectives, is actually possible going forward.
Dan Seguin 09:29
Don't I've got a follow up question here. What does a self healing grid mean?
Guillaume Paradis 09:35
You know, in a nutshell, self healing is about leveraging technology and automation to ensure that when an issue occurs, whether it be a failure, or an externality, like a tree, you know, impacting our infrastructure. We use that technology that automation to most rapidly re structure and rearrange our distribution system to minimize the impact of those events. So it's really about leveraging automation, you know, rapid communication, we now have access to using the computational power that is also available to us. And letting those tools make the preliminary decision on how best to restore power, before there's a human interaction that comes in to take care of the final steps. So really, if you think about it, and how far we've come in the last 20 years with computer power and communication tools, it's really bringing the latest and the best of those technologies to bear on how we restore power to our customers.
Dan Seguin 10:45
After the May Dereocho, a lot of people were asking why utilities don't bury all overhead lines? What's your answer to that Gil?
Guillaume Paradis 10:55
So yeah, it comes up every time there's a storm, and it's, it's perfectly understandable. And I think there's a couple things that come into play when we think about, you know, what is best to deliver power to our customers. Certainly, you know, we've been talking about redundancy in an underground system, when it comes to certain types of climate related events, like large storms, or wind storms, you know, introduce a certain level of security that exceeds what is possible with an overhead system. But the other very important element as we think about electrification going forward, is the element of cost, and affordability of power. And, you know, just from a comparison standpoint, the basic math, you know, when evaluating underground alternatives to overhead systems, is about a 10 to one cost ratio. So certainly when we look at, you know, where best to invest dollars, and how best to bring power to communities, that cost component is factored in and becomes a consideration, particularly when you look at lower density areas, or farther away areas from production centers, it becomes a costly proposition. Now, what we're looking to do going forward is we see undergrounding as a strategic tool in improving our climate resilience. And so we're going to look at certain corridors, perhaps, or certain targeted investments to underground infrastructure, to try to get the most value possible for our customers as we plan for, you know, an elevated climate challenge in the future. But that consideration around costs is significant. And finally, what I'd say as well is, you know, your ability to restore power when there's a problem with overhead infrastructure is far greater than it is when an underground system fails. And so in addition to that cost component, the ability to restore power quickly, when there is a problem is higher with an overhead infrastructure.
Dan Seguin 13:10
At the beginning of the last century, it was the Industrial Revolution. This century is shaping up to be an electrical revolution. How confident are you about the grid's capacity, as more and more people electrify their cars, and eventually, their homes?
Guillaume Paradis 13:32
So how confident I would say very confident. And that's not to minimize the scale of the challenge ahead of us. You're correct, we're now proposing to essentially, you know, completely shift the dynamics around electricity. In a matter of, you know, I would like to say decades, but it's essentially a decade at this point. And so it's a very complex challenge from an engineering standpoint and a planning standpoint. But I've seen how the conversation and the thinking has evolved over the last 1015 years in our industry, I've seen the technologies that are being brought forward as tools to be leveraged to enable that transition to a more electric future. And, you know, the significant load growth, I will come with that. So I think we have the tools, we need to maintain a high level of awareness and adaptability in, you know, facing what's ahead of us. We can't fall back on old habits or, you know, make excuses when we have solutions we want to implement and we know we need to implement to enable that electrified future, but I think We will get there. And I've seen all sorts of signs pointing to that possibility. And it's going to come down to once again making the most of all the tools we have. So we talked about technology earlier, we're going to have to leverage technology to manage how electric vehicles are charged, and when, and in what parts of the city and how best to leverage the existing infrastructure to do that, because we know, we can just build or double the size of our electric infrastructure to accommodate that growth. So we're going to have to be more refined, we're going to have to leverage all the tools available to us, including distributed energy resources, but I think we will get there and I like what I'm seeing from all the stakeholders across the industry, and thinking and adapting to that new reality.
Dan Seguin 15:50
Here's another follow up question. What would you say to those who are worried about reliability and power outages?
Guillaume Paradis 15:59
I would say that's our main focus. And so it's completely normal to have some concerns in a context where more of our lives become dependent on the electricity system. And but, you know, on our end, from an electricity industry standpoint, reliability has been forever, essentially, you know, the focus of our energy and our attention. And now we all understand that, we need to elevate the reliability standards that have been developed over the last decades. And so we have, once again, certain tools we can leverage to do that. So again, not to say it's not significant, we have to go from, you know, what has been a 99.998% availability to something even closer to 100%. Because we know our customers depend on our infrastructure more than ever. But we're working on that. And we're going to bring in some tools that will help us support that outcome. And certainly, you know, we talked about automation, but things like battery storage, becoming more prevalent, you know, within the landscape, including the batteries of electric vehicles, over time, will be one of those examples of new tools that we can try to leverage to deliver, deliver that elevated level of reliability that our customers will expect in our society will need.
Dan Seguin 17:33
Okay, thanks. Yeah, there will be power outages, we can't avoid that. Knowing that, what are some of the things customers could or should consider doing to be better prepared?
Guillaume Paradis 17:46
Yeah. So that's another interesting question with respect to what we've seen in the last few years. So even just through some of the climate related events that we've experienced, you know, longer duration outages related to tornadoes are due to Russia more recently, one of the basic things that everyone is encouraged to do and we try to promote is, you know, developing a plan for the household, right, or for, you know, your business if you're a commercial customer, but think about what things look like, from your perspective. In the event of an outage of various durations that like, you know, the basic exercise would be to think about something of short duration, say two hours of less or less than looking at something a bit more prolonged like six hours, and then going to the next step of saying, what happens if it's more than 24 hours. And you know, if you go to our website, and the website of, you know, many of our peer utilities, most offer a set of resources around how to build a toolkit to be able to remain safe and function through certain duration outages. And then, of course, if you want to go beyond that for certain critical customers, and that conversation is ongoing, and everyone's minds already been turned to that, but looking at other alternatives, like on site generation, energy storage, generators, of course, being the traditional option, but looking to secure some critical processes with on site generation where possible. So building resilience is something that we've worked on, you know, for decades, through our infrastructure investments, of course, but working with customers, and more so than ever again, as we electrify many more aspects of our lives. We need to ensure that everyone appreciates and recognizes what may be required if power was to for hopefully a very short amount of time not be available.
Dan Seguin 20:03
Now, what kind of planning and predictions are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to electrification?
Guillaume Paradis 20:13
So the short term is probably the most interesting element now, because it's been a little difficult to figure out exactly when things would land. So what we're seeing today, and that's ongoing now, is that, you know, certainly many customers are actively looking at reducing their impact in terms of carbon footprint. And they're looking at doing that through electrification. And so we're seeing a lot of activity where customers choose to switch to fuel, which would be essentially moving away from using carbon intensive energy resources for things like heating, and then leveraging our infrastructure to support that. So when that happens at a campus level, or for commercial customers, that can be a significant growth in the demand on the electricity system. So we're fairly able to project what that looks like. And it's been happening at a good pace. On the electric vehicle adoption side of things we've been monitoring for over a decade now, we've been, you know, doing some modeling, some predictions, we've worked with, you know, external stakeholders to put together studies that would help us understand the impact. The thing that has been challenging, certainly over the last two years is that there's now a clear gap between the market demand with or for electric vehicles, and what manufacturers and the supply chains are able to make available to that market. So figuring out the exact timing has become a little more challenging, where we would have expected to see, you know, a very steady growth, but a significant growth that would eventually turn into sort of a complete shift to electric vehicle purchases. Whereas it's taking a bit longer, I think, to occur than we would have, frankly, hoped for, but also expected, it's getting, it's gotten us or given us a bit more time as supposed to plan for it. But certainly from an electrification standpoint, and the predictions that we're making, we're seeing electric vehicles being sort of pervasive across our distribution system. It'll occur over a certain number of years, but we will have electric vehicle charging occur all over service territory. And certainly from a fleet standpoint, once again, as soon as some of the manufacturers manage to ramp up their capacity to produce vehicles, we're expecting to see more and more fleet operators move their entire operation to electric vehicles. And so we're preparing for that as well.
Dan Seguin 22:58
Now, Guillaume, tell me, what keeps you up at night, then, talk to me about what gives you hope.
Guillaume Paradis 23:06
So what still keeps me up at night. And I think that's just a virtue of the environment. And the industry that we're in is the safety of our team. And, frankly, anyone who interacts with our infrastructures, so that that's something that we easily forget in our society, considering how, you know, ubiquitous energy electricity is, it's just the sheer power that that electricity represents, and how close in proximity it comes to many people, certainly our workforce, you know, physically interacts with that infrastructure every day. And so ensuring that we remain safe at all times is critical. But it's the same for our customers and anyone who comes close to the electricity infrastructure. And so that's, that's first and foremost, I think it's just, you know, a reality of what we do, distributing electricity. But certainly just the general pace of change is interesting, I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, because I'm worried it keeps me up at night because it's exciting. And there's so much possibilities that come with what's ahead to a degree that we've frankly, never seen in our industry. And so it's just a completely exciting time to be part of the electricity industry. We just got to make sure that we do everything we can to leverage what's coming for the benefit of our customers and to power our community. But you know, there are much worse things to be kept up at night by and I think it's just a lot of energy. Literally, I suppose, coming to all of us, you know around the organization in the industry. Well, hope is So we have, you know, so many bright colleagues, so many people looking at what's, you know, ahead and what's upon us, that we're uniquely positioned to help, you know, our, all societies across the globe, deliver on, you know, what is, you know, the generational challenge of climate change. So we're, you know, it's, it's not often that you're part of an industry that can have such a significant impact on such a large problem. And so to be right in the middle of it, and having a key role in enabling the aspiration of our entire society, is really exciting. And, you know, having the chance to take tangible and real concrete actions to get us all there is fantastic. So the hope comes from the energy of everyone involved, and the talent of everyone in Walt involved, and the passion that they bring to solving this massive, massive challenge that we have ahead of us.
Dan Seguin 26:12
Moving on here, what role does hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
Guillaume Paradis 26:22
So that the, I think the unique perspective that we bring, so certainly, electrifying period, right, so we're, we're, you know, an alternative to dirtier sources, particularly here in Ontario, where we can still count on an electricity system that is very significantly, you know, supplied by renewable energy resources. So we're sort of a platform for greenhouse gas reduction, just by virtue of electrification. So that is a significant role. And even more importantly, we also have, you know, an opportunity to be direct partners with industries, stakeholders, businesses, commercial actors, who are actually trying to reduce their greenhouse gases, footprint and impact. And so we're, we're part of the conversation and what we do differently than other businesses is, we think and plan in decades, and, you know, in Windows of 25, and 50 years, and so we've been here 100 years, we're expecting to be here, you know, many 100 more. And so we have that long term perspective that we can bring to the table, when engaging with other stakeholders who maybe think more on a sort of business case level in terms of three and five year paybacks, we're actually able to bring in that long term perspective to inform their decision making. So it's pretty unique, frankly, and, and we're also in many, many cases, in a position where we're trusted advisors. So there has been that trust built over decades of being reliable and available. And so we're seen as or as almost impartial in the process of electrifying and reducing greenhouse gases. And so again, we can bring that perspective to bear when supporting our customers and making those decisions and enabling those objectives of more sustainable activities.
Dan Seguin 28:43
Sorry about this Guillaume, but I've got a follow up question, what are some of the initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help customers in this area?
Guillaume Paradis 28:51
So we have essentially the full inventory of initiatives. So from a customer standpoint, we work with them at the facility level, we have, you know, our key account representatives, we're sort of their energy advisors on demand. And so, you know, that is a direct line between customers and all the portfolios and all the options that are available in the industry. So that's, that's big, because it's, it's almost working with them from the inception of their plans to try to bring them to, you know, that future of a lower carbon footprint. And so, you know, we're very active in that space. You know, from an energy standpoint and an energy system standpoint, we see our responsibility as being the local enabler of local renewable energy resources, and a more efficient use of energy, you know, in our community and in the communities that we serve. And so we're working with industry stakeholders, particularly regulatory agencies, and better informing their approach to enabling those resources to make sure that when customers approach us with their solar generation project, or with their battery storage project, we find the best way to make that investment work for them financially, but also for our community from a greenhouse gas standpoint. And so we have a very important role in sort of acting as an interface between, you know, our constituents, and the regulatory agencies that govern what we do. And that's fundamental to making that green future possible. Because we're essentially, you know, ending an entire regulatory framework, and an entire industry paradigm on the fly, as people make those decisions, to invest differently. And so that advisor role is critical, that advocacy role is critical. And you know, more specifically, we have a wide variety of programs, all available in great detail on our website, to help customers think through the decisions that they're making with respect to energy.
Dan Seguin 31:21
Now, what are your thoughts on distributed energy resources, what kind of challenges or opportunities do they pose?
Guillaume Paradis 31:32
Not only a great opportunity, but a necessary piece of that puzzle coming together with respect to electrifying and proceeding with that energy transition that we've all embarked on. And that going forward with the combination of a growing demand for electricity, and some of the challenges brought about by climate change, will need to be able to leverage energy resources closer to where the demand actually exists. And distributed energy resources are sort of the elementary building blocks that will allow us to do that where by having a generation closer to our customers within our community here in Ottawa, for example, and in Castleman, we'll be able to ensure that we're not reliant on power coming from, you know, hundreds of kilometers away somewhere across the province. And that under more scenarios, contingency or otherwise, we're able to leverage what's here to ensure that our customers stay power through whatever may come and so the D ers bolt in meeting capacity requirements going forward and meeting resilience expectations will be essential. And so once again, they in terms of scaling up to, you know, many 1000s within Ottawa, Ottawa, they represent a pretty significant engineering challenge in rethinking our control systems, our, you know, engineering decisions, but they're a necessary and important building block, and therefore much larger of an opportunity than they are a threat. And we just need to spend the next few years continuing to evolve our ability to leverage those in real time to meet our future objectives.
Dan Seguin 33:30
Okay, yeah, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guillaume Paradis 33:38
Okay,we'll give it a shot.
Dan Seguin 33:40
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Guillaume Paradis 33:43
So, I'm not sure if the timing of this conversation will matter. But certainly leading up to Remembrance Day, I sort of tend to go back to at least one book, you know, related to war, and the impacts of war. And so I've gotten back into reading August by Barbara Tuchman. So that's sort of one of my favorite books about the start of the First World War. Just very well written. And every time I go back to it, I'm just inspired by the quality of the storytelling, but I have this bad habit of reading multiple books at the same time, which typically takes me forever to get through them. I've started Dawn of everything or the dawn of everything, which is a complicated but very interesting reevaluation of how modern enlightenment thinking has evolved in Europe through the influence of some of the North American First Nations. It is a very interesting topic there. And also reading An old classic and letters from a stoic by Seneca when I managed to not fall asleep at 1230 Each night, but those are the three books that are on my night table right now.
Dan Seguin 35:16
Now, what would you name your boat? If you have one? Or maybe do you have one?
Guillaume Paradis 35:22
I do not. And I would let my kids name it. And so I expect it would be called something related to Paw Patrol, or the latest show that they're on these days. But I would certainly not shoulder that responsibility. And I would ask my kids to decide what the name should be,
Dan Seguin 35:47
Who is someone that you admire, Guillaume?
Dan Seguin 35:50
I'm going to stay on the same theme with that one. And I think I have to say, I admire my wife. And I do because I get to watch her in action every single day. And I see how she tackles problems. And she multitasks and makes problems go away that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And so the relentless energy or determination that she applies to everything she does, is really a big inspiration for me. So, you know, surely there are others, you know, in our history or otherwise, that could be inspirations, but no one resonates in my life, quite to the degree that my wife does.
Dan Seguin 36:35
Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 36:42
Fair, that's, that's a tricky one. I think, not the engineering type talking about science here. But I think just there's two extremes that are either dead technologies that we've managed to develop. And one of the ones I think of occasionally, is them, computers and the chips and the microprocessors we've been to develop, able to develop and just the sheer scale, and the complexity that we've been able to create there. Otherwise, things like CRISPR, for genetic splicing, I just still can't quite wrap my head around how that's possible. But we're able to do things with DNA now that are just, you know, stuff of science fiction 20 years ago, anything to do with space exploration, and deploying, you know, telescopes in space or launching probes to Mars, I still don't understand how we managed to do that, without something failing more often than it does. And otherwise, the other extreme, I would say is, is just nature, right. And that's exactly what we're all working on today, across the globe, is recognizing that what we have, you know, around us, our planet is just beyond amazing, and, you know, almost incomprehensible in complexity. And we have a responsibility to take care of that. But I think, you know, whenever we have, I have the chance of stepping out of the city and just looking around at nature for a few minutes, you have to kind of be reminded of how unlikely it all seems that something so complex, so beautiful, would come together. And so I think, you know, in the real world, those things are as close as we can get to magic, really.
Dan Seguin 38:38
Okay, this is an interesting one, Guillaume. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guillaume Paradis 38:46
That's a tricky one to think through. Because there's been so much that seems to have happened over the last 24 months - and now 30 months of the pandemic, I would say just having to constantly adapt without what seemed for a while a real frame of reference, right. So if you take yourself back to the early days of the pandemic, in particular, it just seemed like every other week, we would, we would be learning new things about how the pandemic would work and how forecasts look as to how we might get out of that situation. And so, you know, I'm someone who loves change in general. But even for me, in those early days, it just seemed a little bit unsettling to feel like every other week, you had to rethink a lot of your decisions, a lot of your planning a lot of the ways in which you thought you could protect yourself, your colleagues in your family, and so just having to do that on an ongoing basis for an extended period of time. Like that was very, very challenging. And so I'd probably put that as the biggest challenge. But obviously, you know, everything else that flowed from there was back to our society or friends and family or colleagues. That was just a very, very unique situation to work through in general, right?
Dan Seguin 40:11
We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, what is your favorite movie or your favorite show?
Guillaume Paradis 40:19
So I watch just about anything that comes up, that I can sort of sit through for more than 15 minutes that sort of detest now. We've all watched so much TV over the last few years that if something can capture your attention for 15 minutes, that's probably a good sign. I always, and that might be a boring answer. But I always end up going back to, you know, one of the classics and Seinfeld. So, you know, you look at what's available. And, you know, sometimes you just don't have the energy to start something new. And I just go back to it, I found it's aged fairly well, some of the humor in there is quite timeless. And so it's sort of like a comforting blanket almost at this point, they just go back to a couple old Seinfeld episodes.
Dan Seguin 41:12
Lastly, sir, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Guillaume Paradis 41:18
I mean, I've said it a few times already. But just the opportunity to be in the middle of all that change. Like, it's such an important time in our societies evolution, I would not want to be on the sidelines of watching that unfold. And I think, you know, being so centrally positioned to help us all achieve those really big aspirations we have with respect to climate and the environment. I think that's great, right? And we have the tools, we have the energy we have, you know, everyone is willing, and so we just have to do it. So I think, you know, it's such a source of inspiration and energy. That, you know, I couldn't ask for more frankly, electricity was always important. And I was always something that made our industry very intriguing, and, you know, interesting, but that has been taken to a whole new level in the last little while. And for the foreseeable future, that, you know, there's going to be an endless supply of energy for all of us to solve those big problems.
Dan Seguin 42:31
Well, Guillaume, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and our organization, how could they connect?
Guillaume Paradis 42:45
So certainly, you know, go to our website, we've just launched a brand new website for a group of companies, I believe. It's under the name of power as one.com. Otherwise, our hydro auto website, of course, I wouldn't encourage you to find out more about me, I'm not that important. But check out the resources we have on our website. Our organization in particular is doing all sorts of novel and cool things, whether it be across Portage power, and vari Hebrew networks, or hydro Ottawa limited. So check out what we have there and reach out, you'll see all sorts of channels on there that you can use to engage with us. We're actively looking for everyone's input as we think about the future of energy. And so please come forward with whatever creative solutions you have. And I assure you, we'll consider them.
Dan Seguin 43:46
Again, Guillaume, merci beaucoup, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Guillaume Paradis 43:52
Cheers. And it was great. Thank you, Dan, for having me.
Dan Seguin 43:55
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Did you know only 22% of workers in all energy jobs are female? Recruiting women in STEM, specifically in the energy sector, is something the industry needs to do a better job with. It’s why Erin Twamley, an award-winning author and educator, focused on women working in the energy field. Her new book, Everyday Superheroes: Women in Energy Careers, features 34 real-life superheroes who are powering our planet today. Erin joined us to share how we can do a better job of championing women in STEM.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Sauinand my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:30
Hey, everyone, welcome back. Do you remember what you wanted to be when you grew up? I remember I wanted to be in the arts, a photographer or even a graphic designer. What about you, Rebecca?
Rebecca Schwartz 00:44
Well, when I was really little, I wanted to be an architect because I liked to draw. And then a little bit later on, I wanted to be an actress. But as I got older, I realized I didn't quite have the skills for either of those. But honestly, there were so many careers I wasn't aware of growing up - careers that I didn't even know were possible.
Dan Seguin 01:01
In hindsight, I know there were careers that were considered unacceptable for me to want to pursue. You look back now and realize your career choices were heavily influenced by society's expectations based solely on your gender.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:20
Gender is something that we've really only just begun to talk about and attempt to address in the last decade or so within the energy sector. And gender oppression, you know, brings up ideas about what's considered masculine and what's considered feminine, including the careers that we choose.
Dan Seguin 01:36
We've touched on this topic a few times in this podcast. But the energy sector is one of the least gender diverse industries, with women making up only 22% of workers,
Rebecca Schwartz 01:50
And within the energy industry, which is expected to increase capacity by 50% - by 2040 there is a huge demand for talented skilled workers. There's an untapped potential pool of young girls and young women who could consider careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, also commonly known as STEM.
Dan Seguin 02:11
So, here's today's big question. How do you reach 50% of the population that identifies as female to consider a career in the exciting energy sector? A sector that is going to shape and influence the future of our planet.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:30
Joining us on the podcast today is Erin Twamley, an award winning book author and educator. Erin is a former Energy Education Specialist at the Department of Energy where she led energy literacy efforts for teachers and students.
Dan Seguin 02:45
Erin has been creating stories of women working in STEM careers through her everyday superhero book series. Her second book in the series was published in July 2022, and is designed to get elementary school children excited about careers in the energy field,
Rebecca Schwartz 03:05
In her children's book 'Everyday Superheroes, Woman in Energy Careers- Erin represents 34 real life Superheroes and real life women who are powering our planet today. They install solar panels, they dig wells miles into the ground, connect zigzagging power lines that charge our electronics, and drive us into the future with battery powered cars.
Dan Seguin 03:27
The book series is smart, relatable and inspiring, demonstrating the limitless possibility for girls in the next generation of STEM superheroes. Erin, welcome to the show.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:41
Perhaps you could start us off Erin by telling us a little bit about your origin story. And what inspired you to pursue a superhero career in energy yourself?
Erin Twamley 03:51
Well, thank you so much for having me here. today. I'm very excited to talk a little bit about my career where I do kind of storytelling, right? I'm an educator. I'm a children's book author. And I really believe that the energy sector has lots of stories to tell. And there's lots of exciting things happening whether you're climbing on top of a wind turbine, or you're building a new kind of wind farm. There are so many opportunities for kids and even caregivers and adults out there to know about because we are really on the cusp of changing how we power our planet, how we power our communities, how we power our everyday household items, from our cars to our houses, to the airplanes that we fly on.
Dan Seguin 04:39
Erin, you mentioned that you were an Energy Education Specialist at the Department of Energy. I think that was back in 2012 or 2016. What were you seeing in your role there and how did it influence you in your career and your books?
Erin Twamley 04:58
So I worked at the Department of Energy and the United States from about 2012 to 2016. And I was focused on this whole concept of energy literacy. So what do people know about the role of energy in their lives? But what do they also know about energy within a system? Right? The way we consume energy, the way that energy is produced is not in a vacuum, right? There's economic systems, there's governmental policies that influence it. And so my time there was kind of spent really figuring out, how do we diversify the clean energy workforce? And how do we do that by starting with kids? So in that K through 12 space, we call it in the US? How do we talk to teachers and students. And I think what I really found there is that there were a ton of stories in the energy sector that weren't being shared with students and teachers. And so really, my work the Department of Energy focused on energy literacy drove me to then go into the private sector and just do that storytelling full time.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:02
Okay, so your previous book, you focused on women in STEM, and your recent work is specifically focused on women and energy careers. Curious as to what made you zero in on the energy sector?
Erin Twamley 06:16
So, I think energy is one of the topics that's really largely untouched in STEM. If you look at the education system, there's a lot of talk about coding, robotics and computer science. And there's not enough emphasis on something that we use every day, right, electricity and our energy. And so this idea to focus on energy was actually a dream of my co author. And I probably for the last seven years, it's been on our mind that we wanted to focus on who are the women and energy. And it just took us some time to figure out the right partners, the right sponsors, and also, I think, the right time globally to be able to talk about clean energy and tell stories of those who are working in the clean energy space.
Dan Seguin 07:03
Now, women represent only 22% of workers in all energy jobs. Why are they so underrepresented?
Erin Twamley 07:13
So that question, I think a lot of people in the field are trying to answer. People in industry are trying to answer, and women themselves are trying to answer- right. And I don't think that there's kind of one problem or one solution, if that makes sense. But from my perspective, as a storyteller, I think what's happening is that young girls and young women and professionals don't see themselves in these energy careers, because they don't see role models who look like them. They don't know how expansive these energy and career opportunities are. Right. If you look at the traditional oil and gas sector, there was this whole stigma that these jobs are dirty, right, that they're outdoors, that they require heavy lifting, right. And so that energy sector had to go through a movement itself right to reshare. What is happening in oil and gas. Same with clean energy, there are folks thinking that you need to be able to climb to the top of a wind turbine, for example, or that you need to be an engineer and have a PhD level type education. So I think for more women's participation, we need to share the stories about what those careers are, they need to see that women are working in these different energy careers. And that these careers are from the offices to laboratories, to industry and working in the fields, there's a wide variety of jobs within the energy sector.
Dan Seguin 08:38
Okay, here's a follow up question for you, Erin. What are some of the most influential data points that stood out for you in your work, or research?
Erin Twamley 08:50
So as a writer, I often focus on reading as a whole. And so I think there's three data points that I always love to share. The number one is until students reach the age of 12, one of the biggest influences on youth perspective, and their outcomes is their family and their reading. So that connection between reading and what they read actually makes a really big impact on not only their interest in school, but what they might do as an extracurricular activity. So whether they choose that robotics after school program or not, for example, I think the second piece that's important because I think we often underestimate this is that exposure to role models at an early age actually increases both the competence and interest, especially for young girls, and by a young age. I'm talking about elementary school students, so that by bringing in a wide variety of professionals for career day, for example, that are outside of just a veterinarian, utility provider or an engineer and expanding that that exposure actually has an influence, it has an impact. And that is researched and proven. And last but not least, if there's any educators that are listening to this, I think educators have an important role in this space. Because what you decorate your classroom with, literally the posters that are used, who's depicted in the classroom, and what books are sitting on your shelf, impact your students, and whether or not they see themselves in these types of careers, whether it be STEM careers, or energy careers. So something as simple as having everyday role models or women, on your posters in your classroom, again, can make such a big impact on kids feeling like they're included, and feeling like there's a future for them and opportunities for them in these different career paths.
Rebecca Schwartz 10:52
Now, Erin, with your beautiful new book, which you co authored, what's your goal by telling these real life stories to children? And did you find support for the project easily?
11:01
So we focus on what we call everyday superheroes. So these are real women that are working in industry and this particular book, they're working in the energy industry, and we wanted them to be everyday women, we wanted kids to think about their aunts, their uncles, their cousins, their moms, their dads, their teachers, and say, Oh, hey, actually, my aunt is a nuclear engineer. I never knew what she did before. But now I can actually have a conversation and ask a question, or, you know, Mom and Dad, I didn't know you could put solar panels on a house. How cool would it be to get solar panels on our house? Is that an option? So I think the goal of these real life stories is to really help kids make a connection right to the energy that's around them in their lives. And sometimes that's clearly visible to them, they just need help making that connection. And support for this project has been overwhelming. I'll be honest, we've been very excited to both have industry partners- to have two of the leading energy education organizations in the United States that provide training for both students and teachers - be our partners on this effort. And we have a new partnership, that we're going to be working with our after school programs across the United States to make sure that this education not only happens from a book and a reading perspective, but there's some actual hands on activities that can supplement students interests, and also help hopefully spark their interest in getting into energy.
Rebecca Schwartz 12:39
Okay, so though it's not a one size fits all, the book is aimed at children in grades three to six. Why that age group, specifically?
12:48
So I think what happens especially in energy is that we target Middle School and above, and I hate to say it, but by the time kids are in second grade, they're already making decisions about whether or not they like stem, whether or not they have interests, they're already talking about their competence levels, in STEM and energy careers. And so the research and the data just shows as I shared earlier, the earlier the exposure, the better the outcome. And so this is kind of a sweet target range, because elementary teachers sometimes get some more flexibility in the United States to talk about different topics or to expand on different topics. And we really believe that if we can reach kids at this age, we can hopefully build their competence when they make choices about what STEM electives they do after school, or what clubs they participate in, or what classes they take part in during school.
Dan Seguin 13:46
For our listeners, perhaps you can talk about what kind of career field you focus on in your latest book, or maybe share some cool stories about the women you spotlight.
Erin Twamley 13:59
So what's great about the book 'Everyday Superheroes, Women in Energy Careers', and that's the full name because I think we've we've danced around a little bit today - is that there are 34 superheroes and about 20 other women's stories we share. And these are women, from technicians, to installers to researchers at some of our US National Laboratories, to CEOs who are running companies like manufacturing companies that create pistons, we've got finance managers, we've got land managers, if you think about building a wind or a solar farm that takes a lot of land that takes a lot of investment and there's an entire teams helping these energy projects happen. There are two women in particular I thought I would highlight today. One is Mackenzie Dillon who works for Hydro One. She's actually an Apprentice Powerline Technician. She's part of Women Powerline Technicians in Canada and she is I think somebody that's important to know because this pathway is sometimes seen only from the perspective of you see someone climbing a power line, or you see someone digging, but you're not really sure what they're doing or how important they are until after a storm, for example, but the powerline technicians are the people who really keep our electricity flowing in our communities, right? They are the first ones when the power goes out, or there's a potential for a power outage. And Mackenzie, what's awesome about her is that not only can she, you know, string powerline wires, but she drives a digger, for example, when she was a student, she had ADHD. So she knew that she wanted something that could be hands on and where she could be outdoors. And that this job opportunity allows her to be successful and do that. Another woman I want to highlight is a civil engineer at Firstlight Power, which actually crosses a few states in New England of the United States. She works on dams. In fact, she oversees about 12 dams on five different rivers, and one of those dams is 115 years old. So imagine that you're an engineer responsible for not only kind of the safety of that dam, but making sure that it's an operation and it's being inspected. And her name is Becky Stebbins. And so sharing a little bit about what she does on a daily basis is important for kids so that they can understand, well, how do dams work? How are they operated and who operates them? So those are just two women that I wanted to share with you today.
Rebecca Schwartz 16:39
In your book, you talk about the STEM superpowers that kids can develop to become STEM and energy superheroes. Can you talk to these and why they were so important to include?
Erin Twamley 16:49
So there's a lot of discussion, I think, especially in workforce development initiatives and industry. What skills do students need? Right? How do we prepare them for the workforce? And I think oftentimes, there is a focus on technical skills, right? You know, what does a Powerline Technician specifically need to know? What does a civil engineer specifically need to know? But these super powers kind of touch a little bit more broadly on skills like observation, collaboration, communication, problem solving, and these are really superpowers that we believe any superhero should have, and a superpower can be developed can grow over time might be used, you know, in one area of the job versus another. So these superpowers are kind of just a way for kids to get to think about themselves, and what skills they already have, and what skills they want to grow or learn more about. And it's a great way I think, to engage kids and talking about skills because we as adults use that term. But what kid wouldn't love learning about superpowers and cultivating their own superpowers?
Dan Seguin 18:03
Now, Erin, there is clearly a strong educational component with this book. How are you getting it into the hands of educators? And are you supporting teachers in any other ways?
Erin Twamley 18:17
So I along with my co author, Josh, we're both teachers by training, right. And we have another co author, Katie Bainart. And so together with our partners, what we have really done is worked to get this book into teachers hands through two organizations. One called KidWind, and one called the need project. And both of these nonprofit organizations in the United States, they train teachers on how to teach about energy, so we're partnered with them. So make sure that we can get these books directly into teachers hands that are already teaching about energy. And then we've got some awesome industry partners. And these industry partners are also helping us to distribute books, to their local schools, to their local libraries, as well as these fabulous superheroes in the book, many of them are buying copies of the book for friends or family, for Girl Scout troops, for libraries, for schools. But it's important to note that teachers also work in after school programs. And so that's the other kind of group that we want to reach our teachers that might be providing some kind of supplemental or informal education. And so we have a partnership with the After School Alliance across the United States to reach those teachers. And I know I'm talking a lot about the US because that's primarily been our focus right now. But we do expect that we can go global and that we can provide this resource to other industry partners and teachers in other countries, especially we've seen a huge push to translate this book into Spanish so that is something we are working on with our publisher,
Dan Seguin 20:01
Here's a follow up question. Maybe you can expand on this a bit. I read that you have sponsors and partners helping to distribute your book to more than 10,000 kids. Can you talk a bit about this initiative and why it's important to you?
Erin Twamley 20:18
So as an educator, I think I knew and my co author knew, we're always looking for new resources, right? We're always looking for new role models, we're looking for things to kind of supplement curriculum, right? This book is not a curriculum, it's really meant to spark kids asking questions. It's meant to get them thinking about careers and just providing role models. So we knew we needed industry partners, because they're the leaders, right? They're the ones that are trying to hire the next workforce of the future. And we knew that industry wants to play a role in education. But sometimes they don't know how. And so a book was a great opportunity to engage industry partners, and say, here's how you can make an impact in your community. Let's share the stories of your workers locally, so that people know what you're building, what you're doing, what you're creating, what you're designing. And we also have had small affinity groups. So if you think about companies, many of them have women's groups, for example, or associations that are focused on a particular community and engaging them. And so many of those, like the women's energy network in Boston, women's energy network inPittsburgh, for example, or a group called WIRE, or Women in Tech Sustainability, also want to make an impact and share this book, so we've been able to partner with them as well, to get this book into more hands.
Erin Twamley 21:55
Now, is there a responsibility on behalf of employers and organizations in the energy sector to do more to attract, recruit and retain the next generation of women in energy. And if so, any recommendations on what they should do to support girls and young woman?
Erin Twamley 22:13
So yes, I think, you know, Dan mentioned it earlier that 22% of workers and all energy jobs are female. So clearly there's a problem. Right? And clearly, the energy industry plays a role in that problem, from the recruitment side to the retention side for women, right. So I think some of the things that they need to look at are not only just the kind of the safety standards of what what's available for women, but also just opportunities for women. Are they recruiting and looking for women? Are they actively connected with their local affinity groups and women oriented professional organizations? Are they touching schools and libraries and Girl Scout troops? So I think industry has a huge and important role to play in recruiting the next clean energy workforce. I think they know that based on a lot of my conversations with industry partners, they know the problem exists, and they're trying to tackle it. The problem is that it's not a one size fits all solution for everybody, right? How you recruit and retain folks in Massachusetts is going to look significantly different than Arizona or Georgia or other parts of the United States. And as an even compared to Canada, right, because energy doesn't happen in a vacuum. There are local policies and procedures and things in place. But I think the bottom line is that industry nosing they play a role. And I think they're working on it.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:47
What do you think, though, are some of the biggest challenges and barriers to entry for girls and young woman in the energy and renewable energy sector specifically?
Erin Twamley 23:55
I think we don't know what careers are available to them. I think that if you ask grown adults today, what are the fastest growing jobs in the energy sector? They don't know what they are right. And some of them are jobs like wind technicians, solar installers, or operations managers for some of these wind and solar farms. These jobs didn't exist, right? They didn't exist at the scale they do now 20 years ago, let alone 10 years ago, or even five years ago. So I think part of it is that you can't be what you can't see. Right? I think that's a common phrase that's out there. Women and girls need to know what these careers are, and what those salaries are and how they make a difference, right? How powering our planet addresses things like climate change, how it makes a difference for communities in terms of education and family life?
Dan Seguin 24:52
What would you like the short and long term impact of your work to be and where can people buy your books?
25:01
So I think the irony I always say is I would like to write myself out of a job. I would like to not actually have to write books that only feature women for example, right. And I would really like to be a point where women in energy or women in STEM careers would be so normalized that they would be in everyday children's books. Unfortunately, one sad stat I will share with you right now is that children's books depict men three times as often as they do women in particular, for those in science, technology, engineering and math. Which means the likelihood of a child picking up a book and seeing a woman working in science, technology, engineering, or math, whether that's a real woman, or just an illustrated woman is pretty low, right? And so until we change that media narrative, I'm gonna have a job to continue sharing these stories and telling these stories. What I think is so interesting is that there's so many media and ways to share these stories. Now I'm a traditional children's book author, and I like print books, right? But the world is changing with Instagram and videos. And the way to reach students and kids is much more vast. And there's a wide variety now, to reach students, where you can you buy my books, so if you go to stem superheroes.com stem superheroes.com is our website, you can find all the places to find the books, but anywhere you want to buy a book Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Amazon Bookshop.org. All of our books and collections are in those places.
Dan Seguin 26:21
Now, Erin, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. I hope you're ready.
Erin Twamley 26:55
I think so.
Dan Seguin 26:57
Okay, what are you reading right now?
Erin Twamley 27:00
I knew you're gonna ask that! I am reading Amanda Gorman's, Call Us What We Carry, which is her collection of poems.
Dan Seguin 27:07
Okay. What would you name your boat? If you had one? Do you have one?
Erin Twamley 27:14
I don't have a boat. But I think I would name it 'sun' like S-U-N, like the sunshine.
Dan Seguin 27:20
Who is someone that you admire Aaron?
27:24
I think right now it would be who is someone that you admire. I know this is supposed to be rapid fire but I think she's a historical woman. But I really admire her work. Her name is Eunice Foote 'f-o-o-t-e' if you want to Google her, she was actually one of the first climate scientists. She did the first experiments on greenhouse gases using jars just in her backyard. And I just really admire that she did that experimentation at home. And not only that, but she recorded all those experiments. And she attempted to share those experiments with Science Foundations and out in the world. So that's just somebody I've been reading about and kind of admire her dedication to doing that work.
Dan Seguin 28:09
Cool. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Erin Twamley 28:14
Well, I think plugging in an electric vehicle, and having it turned on, I mean, right. As a kid, I'm so used to gasoline and that smell. And I'll be honest, I'm in the process of trying to purchase an electric vehicle. But I feel like that's magic, right? Like that sparks my 10 year old self of what I'm going to plug in a car and what does that mean? And how does that work? And I want to know all the things right, and all those connection points. So that's probably the closest magic I've experienced lately.
Dan Seguin 28:43
Erin, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Erin Twamley 28:50
So I have two little kids. And I think in some ways, there was isolation that was probably really hard from a family perspective. But on the flip side of that, I got to connect with a lot of classrooms around the world that I would never get to connect with. I visited classrooms in Missouri, in New Jersey and Arizona, in Korea, in Japan, and I never would have been able to do that right? Because they're not flying me out to do those visits.
Dan Seguin 29:16
Okay, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and some of us TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Erin Twamley 29:26
I just finished? It's a docu series. It's called the Bad Vegan. So it's a real life story. It's about a woman who started one of the most successful vegan restaurants in the United States in the 90s. And then she was convicted of kind of, you know, fraud and not paying workers but it's a super interesting story and she actually was caught eating a pizza. And so it's a very interesting kind of, you know, like this whole persona and building a brand and she developed this brand and, and it got dismissed huddled. And so that's caught my attention recently.
Rebecca Schwartz 30:05
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Erin Twamley 30:08
I think what's exciting is that we're changing how we're going to power our planet. Right? And that impacts all of us whether you live on a tiny island somewhere to some of the huge industrialized nations in the United States. And I think we have so much opportunity to actually think about how we want to power our planet? What sources do we want to use to power our planet, and we have a huge opportunity to be a leader in how we change and address climate change.
Rebecca Schwartz 30:41
Well, Erin, that's it, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast! If our listeners want to learn more about you and your work, how could they connect?
Erin Twamley 30:50
The best place would be to go to the website, STEMsuperheroes.com. You'll find everything about the work that we do sharing the stories, careers and superpowers of women in STEM, you'll find my email address. We're also on all the social handles that stem superheroes. So you can find us on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram. We don't have a tick tock but maybe in the future, as you know, the modes in the media keep changing.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:20
All right. Thank you again, Erin, so much for joining us today. We hope you had a good time.
Erin Twamley 31:24
Yes, thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate you letting me share a little bit about energy superheroes and the women who are changing our planet.
Dan Seguin 31:35
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing as countries around the globe are eliminating greenhouse gases transitioning away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future involves a lot of moving parts, especially as it relates to cleaning Canada’s energy sector. Merran Smith, founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada, joins us to talk about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today, we're coming clean about what clean energy could look like in the near future. That's right. And with the help of our guests, we're going to define what clean energy means, specifically for Canada and the future of electricity. There is a rising pressure around the globe to transition away from fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gases, and challenge the status quo when it comes to pollution and tackling climate change. What does that mean for Canada and our place in a clean energy world? Obviously, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to cleaning Canada's energy sector, particularly when it comes to transportation, and heating of our buildings. But there's more to it than just that. There's renewable energy, revamping and expanding the electricity grid and conserving energy. Not to mention innovation and technology that doesn't exist yet. That will all play a role in getting us to Canada's Net Zero targets. So here's today's big question. Can Canada affordably and realistically accelerate its transition to clean energy in time? Our guest today is Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada is a leading Think Tank, advancing clean energy and climate solutions. Marren has won numerous awards for her work and also serves as co chair of the BC government's Climate Solutions Council. Okay, Marren, let's kick things off by telling our listeners about yourself, your work, and what Clean Energy Canada is.
Marren Smith 02:23
Yeah, so I'll start with Clean Energy Canada, we're a think tank based at Simon Fraser University's Center for dialogue. And we focus on solutions to accelerate the transition to a clean energy economy. And so what do we actually do? You know, we do think tank things like analysis and policy advice. But what makes us really different is that one, we focus on the solutions, not the problems, all about solutions to we really like to bring together business industry unions, get everybody in the room and see if we can get consensus around the advice to governments so that they can move solutions forward faster. And thirdly, what we do is we do a lot of talking to Canadians about the energy transition, how it links to jobs, to a nick strong economy and more affordability. And so we think of ourselves actually as a do tank and not a think tank. And myself, I'm a fellow at Simon Fraser University, I founded Clean Energy Canada, I'm now moved on, I'm no longer the Executive Director. I'm the Chief Innovation Officer. And I had been asked over the years, in the last 10 years doing this work, to co chair a number of Climate and Energy advisory bodies for both the federal and British Columbia governments. And I think that's because I have a pretty long track record of bringing together unusual allies around solutions to environmental energy and economy problems. So that's a bit about me.
Dan Seguin 04:09
Now, I'm somewhat curious, how does Clean Energy Canada define clean energy? Is it in relation to zero emissions? Or is there more to it than that?
Marren Smith 04:22
Yeah, so for us, we talk about clean energy spanning both energy supply. So renewable electricity, for example, solar, wind, thermal, but also demand. And so our definition of clean energy includes, like, as I said, renewable electricity generation, but also energy storage, energy transmission, energy efficiency, and any of the technologies or services that decarbonize transportation buildings in this Three and other polluting parts of our economy. So we have a fairly large definition of clean energy. And you know it really, when you look at it, that is what energy is all about. It's not just about making the energy. It's about how you use it and the technology so that you can use it more efficiently.
Dan Seguin 05:18
Clean Energy Canada has been advocating for climate action since 2010; 12 years in what are three positive changes that have made the biggest impact in Canada? And what is one that has hindered success?
Marren Smith 05:37
Yeah, this is a great question. So the three positive changes that I see is, one, the cost of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we've really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over those last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle have dropped about 90%, wind has dropped about 40%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this is coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the eccotemp economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. Um, the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible. And that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over this last six years, federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada's had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly, is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive, and especially the today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to ten dollars versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from, we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards netzero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies. And, you know, continue with a strong economy if we do at night, right if we act now. And I guess Lastly, about electric vehicles, it's for anybody who hasn't gotten in one yet, you really should, because they're pretty fun to drive. And that's what we want this energy transition to be we want it to be make life better. And I think electric vehicles are just one way that people can see how, you know, once you get over the hurdle of purchasing one, it does make life better, cleaner air, more affordable to drive. Now, you asked the other question, what's hindered success? And I would say what's really hindered Canada's movement on all of this has been the debate and the governments that have really ripped up climate action or refused to move forward on climate action. And, you know, that's created uncertainty. So we've seen various governments in Ontario in Alberta, you know, federally across the country, I shouldn't just name those provinces, because across the country, governments who come in and who are not willing to take action on climate and really want to stick with the static quo. And that really creates a lot of uncertainty for business and doesn't drive the change. I'm really hopeful that we're not going to see that anymore. You know, now that we've seen this new inflation reduction act out of the United States, it is sending a clear signal that this is the biggest economic opportunity that there has been, you know, in this generation, absolutely. To drive and build this clean energy economy, they are investing heavily in it. And we're going to see in the United States, those kinds of investments happening all over the country, you know, in red states and blue states, blue collar workers are going to be you know, being employed in plants, white collar workers, rural urban, this, this is going to be a massive, massive growth for industries and the economy, in producing electricity producing batteries and producing all the component pieces towards them hydrogen, retrofitting buildings. So there is a huge boom coming. And I hope that in Canada, we actually see our government picking up on that as well and linking this decarbonisation with our economic strategy.
Dan Seguin 11:55
Marren, what do you mean when you state that the Clean Energy Transition is a once in a generation opportunity for Canada to build a resilient, growing and inclusive economy?
Marren Smith 12:10
Yeah, so we've just talked about how we're really seeing around the globe, you know, the United States, but we've been seeing this in the EU and the UK and China, this, you know, linking up their industrial strategy, their economic strategy, to their economic strategies. And so Canada really has what it takes to make this shift as well to, you know, take action on climate decarbonize and really shift from fossil fuels oriented economy to a clean energy or renewable energy economy. So we have the natural resources that are going to be needed, you know, those metals and minerals, for example, we're going to be needing that steel, that cobalt, that nickel to be building the transmission lines, the solar panels, and in particular, the batteries, which are really the heart of the clean energy system. So Canada has what it takes. And then secondly, we've got the clean electricity or grids about 83% clean or zero mission right now. We've got a skilled labor force. So that's what the opportunity is, it's going to be a massive effort for us to retool our existing industries and build some of these new industries. But we've got the potential to do it.
Dan Seguin 13:40
Next question. Now, what makes Canada well positioned to be a global clean energy leader?
Marren Smith 13:48
So Canada's got the natural resources that we talked about metals and minerals, forest products, agricultural products, we've got great solar and wind resources and a grid that's already at 3% zero emission. We have great potential for green hydrogen. And, you know, we've got great trading relationships with the US as well as Europe and Asia. So we are positioned to be creating clean energy and one of the things that we are uniquely positioned around our batteries. Batteries are going to be the heart of the energy system. So they're obviously the heart of the electric vehicle. But also, large scale batteries are going to be what backs up that intermittent or variable wind and solar and renewable energies, they're going to be a part of the system as well. And so Canada is the only country in the Western world. It's actually the only democratically elected country that has all the metals and minerals needed to produce batteries. So In addition, we've got the good clean electricity to actually manufacture those metals and minerals and turn them into, you know, refine them, turn them into cells and ultimately batteries. So we've got the key components there. And that one huge opportunity for Canada. And we're seeing you know, this federal government has been working with Ontario and Quebec and landing some significant battery company investments, you know, GM and Bay calm for this year, LG and still Lantus in Ontario. So that's I some of the key parts of why Canada is so well positioned to be a clean energy leader.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Next question for you. What are the strategies you employ to achieve your mission to accelerate Canada's transition to a renewably powered economy?
Marren Smith 15:56
Yeah, so one, I think that we work with businesses, industry unions, to understand what their needs are, you know, we're positioned at the Center for dialogue at Simon Fraser University. And so we use dialogue, bring people together, structure it so that we can have a deliberate conversation that gets us to advice for government. So that's one of the strategies we employ. A second one is, you know, we look around the world and we find out what policies are working elsewhere, what programs, what are other countries doing that's working? And what can we glean out of that, and use in the Canadian context, and feed that kind of information to governments and to industry about what they can do next? Because Kevin does not the only one doing this, and there's a lot of countries that are ahead of us on this. So let's learn from them, and Canadian eyes it. And then lastly, we really have an eye to bringing the public along with us in this conversation, ensuring that they understand the Clean Energy Transition exactly what does it mean, understand some of the policies when they get controversial? And understand what's in it for them? You know, and right now we're seeing a public that is got, you know, a lot of insecurity going on with the global state of affairs, the war in the Ukraine, you know, this energy prices escalating, there's a lot of misinformation going on. And so, actually having the public understand and see how they fit into the energy transition, and how it's going to make life better for them, is, I'd say, a very important part of the transition. And so we do what we can we actually study how to communicate with the public and study language, what works with them, what resonates and how to get the stories to them that are going to help them understand this energy transition, what they can do, and what they can support.
Dan Seguin 18:06
Marren wondering if you could unpack for our listeners, what are some of the ways clean energy Canada has contributed to our country's progress in the last year or two?
Marren Smith 18:19
Yeah, so we have been working hard over the last couple of years. And I'll tell you about some of the significant achievements that I think we've been part of making happen. So first is about electric vehicles, or zero emission vehicles, as they're called in some circles. We see these as a key part of the solution, and one that is getting ready for primetime. They're a key part of the solution, because one quarter of Canada's carbon pollution is from transportation. So we've got to tackle this and about half of it from passenger vehicles, half of it's from trucks and buses. And so we've been working on both sides of that equation. And one of the things that had become the barrier has been supply of cars. At this point, people want them and we're seeing the uptake of those cars, you know, double and triple year over year. And so how do you get the supply here and how you do that through a policy called the zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the automakers to sell them in, in Canada. And so that's one that we've been working on. We actually were successful in getting one in British Columbia. And you know, and I have to report to you that so far in 2022 17% of new car sales have been electric vehicles. So that just far outpaces what people predicted. I think we were trying to get to 10% by 2025. We've blown through that we've now increased our targets because clearly for Colombians are ready to buy them. And there's similar types of stats from Quebec, who also has a zero emission vehicle mandate. The challenge for the rest of the country, and you know, if you're in Ottawa, you're probably going and putting your name on the list. And it's multiple years, you might not even be able to get on the list anymore, because there just aren't any cars. And so we need a federal zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the companies to the automakers to sell electric vehicles in Canada, or they're penalized. So that's one thing that we've made good progress on and contributed to. One that I haven't talked much about, that I'll mention here is about the steel sector, the cement sector, these heavy industries that are also heavy polluters. And, you know, so that's another area we've been working on and looking for solutions. We're looking at, okay, much of this steel, cement, aluminum, it's all being used in the construction industry. So how do we get those who are building things and buying things to demand low carbon steel, low carbon cement, which will really help these industries put it'll push them to to decarbonize and so that program is called by clean. The biggest purchaser of steel and cement and, and these types of things in the country is the government and we've been working to get the government to commit to a bike clean policy. The really interesting thing is that the steel sector, the cement sector, the aluminum sector V, these sectors are really on board to decarbonizing, this is globally happening. We're seeing all of these industries recognize that they cannot be admitting the scale of pollution, they are right now they've got to reduce that carbon pollution get to net zero. And so, again, we're seeing progress on reducing emissions in that sector. And we're seeing, you know, the United States and Canada have actually said that they are going to work together on this bike lanes so that both countries are pushing that they will procure, they will only purchase low, lower carbon, steel, cement, etc, for building our hospital, roads, schools, and all those good things. So that's another one that I'd say we could say we've been involved with, and batteries, I've already talked about it. We've been involved in the batteries for the last few years, and bringing together that sector, from the mining sector, all the way up to battery producers and electric vehicle, you know, the automatic factoring companies like GM, and all the way to the recyclers, and working with government to get, you know, a battery strategy for Canada to really ensure that we lock in and land the most jobs and the most opportunities for Canadians across the country. And these would be jobs in different provinces and opportunities for different provinces, you know, rural urban jobs, etc. So it's a big opportunity, but Canada's got to act quickly if we really want to get the most benefits from it. And by the most benefits, I mean, we could be creating a quarter of a million jobs by 2030 in this sector, which would be good for the country and will help us as we're transitioning, you know, out of other job sectors.
Dan Seguin 23:36
Okay, Marren, are you able to expand on some of Clean Energy Canada's short term goals?
Marren Smith 23:44
Yeah. So I would say right now, our top short term goal is around public awareness and understanding how shifting to clean energy is going to help affordability for Canadians. I think this is critical and important, because you know, this electrification, people are very sensitive to the price of electricity and increasing costs of electricity. And so there's a piece of work to ship to understanding what your overall energy costs are. So as we move off of fossil fuels, that means you're not spending as much on gas anymore. You know, for your gas fired car, but your electricity bill is going to go up. As you shift off of the having gas to heat and cool your home and shifting to an electric heat pump, their electricity bills can go up. We did some research earlier this year. Report called the true cost looking at some of the top models of cars in Canada, what it costs to purchase one plus run it over eight years, and we'll probably talk a bit more about this letter later. So just to say having Canadians under stand that this shift, while it's gonna have some costs in the short term is a more affordable and a better option for Canadians.
Dan Seguin 25:11
You recently contributed to a white paper with Electric Mobility Canada, on how Canada can design an effective zero emission vehicle mandate. I'm curious, what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 25:27
Yeah. So, I'd say trying to do this in a nutshell. So first of all, is accountability. So we need to ensure that automakers are accountable and keeping pace with demand. And we need to do that with legally binding annual sales requirements so that they have to sell X percent of cars that are electric, and that there's serious financial penalties for non compliance. And that's, that's really the nuts and bolts of a good zero emission vehicle mandate. There's a whole bunch of details in there. Some provinces, like you mentioned, Quebec, and BC, they already have one, so we just need to use this in provinces that don't have them. And then our other key aspect of the recommendations was speed, we need to really finalize this regulation next year, so that it takes effect with model year 2024. There's really no time to wait on this. And we can see the demand for cars is there. We really need to be able to get them into the hands of people right now while they want them.
Dan Seguin 26:37
Now, for my first follow up question, we all know that the lack of supply is a big issue when it comes to zero emission vehicle sales. What's driving that? Are automakers prioritizing other markets? Where they're required to sell more EVs?
Marren Smith 27:00
Yeah, well, that's exactly what we're seeing here. In Canada, the majority of the electric vehicles are going to British Columbia and Quebec, because they're required to sell them there. And, you know, they're going to other states in the United States that have similar types of mandates California at one, but there's a button doesn't down there. And so they're sending them where they need to, you know, in the past, they have been making more money selling, you know, SUVs, for example, those bigger, heavier cars are where they've been making most of their profits. And so they're trying to get rid of those in Canada while they can. But this world is accelerating so quickly. You know, I think once we get the zero emission vehicle mandate, that rules so that the automakers have to sell the cars, we're going to start seeing them arrive in Canada, and we've seen, you know, the Detroit three have all been doubling and tripling their commitment for how fast they're going to start getting cars going and coming off the line. And I think we're going to only see that accelerate in the future. So I'm hoping that, you know, it looks like the automakers are more and more committing to be producing the cars. So the next obstacle is going to be the supply chain and whether they can get the batteries and get the other materials to make them.
Dan Seguin 28:34
Okay, another follow up question for you, Marren. Are there provinces in Canada that get prioritized for EV over others for example, Quebec, or maybe BC?
Marren Smith 28:46
Yeah, absolutely. That's why there's there certain car makes and models that you can only get in BC and Quebec, and that will be related to the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, they, they get, there's a stick and if they don't sell enough cars, they get penalized. So they make sure the cars are in BC and Quebec and that's really the best selling feature for why we need this to be a national program and have a federal zero emission vehicle mandate.
Dan Seguin 29:16
Now hand in hand with that, you convened a select group of industry stakeholders and other experts to develop a report on advancing the Canadian evey battery sector. What were some of the key takeaways from those consultations?
Marren Smith 29:34
Yeah, so the report we produced which you can find on our website at talks about this opportunity, and it is huge to produce batteries. We're talking upwards of 250,000 jobs by 2030 and $40 billion annually going to the Canadian revenues. So that's a great opportunity, but it's not going to happen without you. No creating a strategy to get there. And that is the top recommendation from this group of industry and other experts. The Canadian battery Task Force is what they're called, the top recommendation is we need to have a Canadian battery strategy, which is going to ensure that we target and focus the investment dollars in the right place, that we get the workforce setup. Because, you know, while we do have a great workforce in Canada, we're going to need more workers and with the right skills, and that we make sure that we get the infrastructure, we get the electricity, the clean electricity to the right places, and then we've got enough of it. You know, we've seen almost every battery Manor battery manufacturing plant, that set up so far, has mentioned the zero emission electricity that you can get in Canada. And that's one of the reasons why they chose to build in Canada. And these are big global companies that are choosing to land in Ontario and Quebec so far. And so we just, we need that kind of strategy to ensure that we can get the most out of this battery opportunity.
Dan Seguin 31:16
I like that. Okay. Let's move on. Can you tell us about your recent analysis that found electric vehicles are in fact cheaper, often by a lot than their gas counterpart? What models were you comparing and what factors were considered?
Marren Smith 31:38
Yeah, so we looked at some of the best selling cars in Canada. Things like the Chevy Bolt as the electric versus its gas counterpart, the Toyota Corolla, the Hyundai Kona versus the electric Kona, the Nissan LEAF versus the Honda Civic etcetera. So we did this for a number of the top selling cars, we looked at purchasing it, as well as operating it and maintaining it over an eight year period. And, you know, what we found is that in almost every case, you were saving money. And you know, we've had to update this because the price of gas has gone up so much. But the total costs savings are going electric range from 10 to $15,000, over eight years. That's significant savings. And, you know, as you talked about, you know, you notice that there's almost no maintenance costs for an electric vehicle. And that your cost of fueling is, you know, so much cheaper. And this was before gas was at $2, a leader. So roughly back the envelope, you know, those savings are going to jump in, for example, the Kona to about $18,000 or more, a lot of people don't understand how much more affordable an electric vehicle is. And they look at the sticker price of buying a new car. And that's what turns them away. At you know, so we're encouraging people to really understand, look at the long term. And we know that not everybody can go buy a new car, I didn't buy a new car ever in my life till I bought an electric vehicle. I always bought used cars. But the savings are significant. And of course, the added bonus is the you know, zero emissions, you're part of the solution and helping with climate change.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Okay, a follow up question here. Were there any expectations here?
Marren Smith 33:47
Yeah, so the Ford electric F-150. It was pretty close. Probably now if we did it with the the price or cost of gas now, you would actually be more affordable on the Ford F-150 We haven't gone back to it. The other thing to note on this is that electric vehicles are really holding their value. So if you're someone who likes to buy a new car and sell it in eight or so years, your electric vehicle used car sales are much higher than when you buy a new gas fire vehicle and then sell it off.
Dan Seguin 34:27
When it comes to the electricity grid Canada is 83% emission free and with lower electricity rates than many other countries. We seem to be in an enviable position. But in your report underneath it all. Your findings show that Canada may not be as prepared for a carbon neutral world, as we may think. Now, for the big question, why is that?
Marren Smith 34:55
Yeah, we are ahead. But it's not just about Getting from 83% zero emission to 100%. If that was the only challenge before us, you know, it would take some work, but that's extremely doable. But this energy transition is really the whole sale, reengineering of many of our supply chains, almost the entirety of the energy system that powers the economy, it's huge. And we are going to need to double the amount of electricity we produce by 2050, as we shift our cars or homes or businesses off of fossil fuels and onto the grid. So that's the main message of our report is, you know, we need we have great opportunity here. But we need to double the size of the grid so that we are able to plug our cars and our home heating and cooling and our industries into that zero emission grid.
Dan Seguin 35:53
Okay, follow up question here. What are four reasons Canada needs to achieve 100%? clean electricity supply? And what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 36:06
Yeah. So, you know, first off, it's so that we can effectively combat climate change. And that's, you know, top reason why we're doing this, it's also going to diversify and strengthen Canada's economy. You know, as I said, companies are looking to be powered by zero emission electricity. We've seen those battery plants coming here, one of the reasons cited, and there's more opportunities as more of the the world's industries really focus on how are they going to be net zero, for example, we see Walmart and Amazon, those companies are looking for supply chains that are zero emission, they're counting their carbon, and that includes their transportation. So it's, it's about making Canada competitive and ensuring that we are an attractive place because we can power our economy and our communities with clean electricity. The third reason is around the potential for indigenous reconciliation efforts in clean energy ownership. I think this is a very exciting opportunity. There's already a lot of indigenous communities that own or are partners in clean energy, and we can expand that as this moves forward. And then lastly, is we started talking about affordability on this podcast. And, you know, once you get over the purchasing of the new technologies, it's really more affordable to be plugged into a zero emission grid. And that's going to create more certainty, more security around energy supply.
Dan Seguin 37:51
Marren, what are some of the other benefits to increasing Canada's clean electricity supply?
Marren Smith 37:58
So you know, one, we need clean electricity to meet our climate targets. Secondly, it's around affordability. This is going to help make energy more affordable for communities. And then another benefit. It's clean air, of course, you know, once you shift off of diesel buses, for example, to electric buses out of diesel trucks to electric trucks, you're really cleaning up air quality in cities in particular, but in all communities. And then there's another potential benefit. You know, Canada, most people don't know this, we actually export 8%, for electricity right now to America, that brings in $2.6 billion. And you know, the US has the same commitments around getting to 100% clean electricity grid by 2035. There's a lot dirtier than ours, they've got a lot of catching up to do. And there's a potential for Canada that has an enormous wealth of potential for renewable electricity across the country. Places like you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan have incredible solar resources. We have wind opportunities, you know, offshore onshore. So there's potential for us to be investing in clean electricity, not just for our own needs, but as a immensely valuable export that's going to be in demand in the United States. And then link to that economic opportunity is green hydrogen. We're hearing more about hydrogen can something that Europe's looking at shifting off of natural gas onto green hydrogen, which is made you know, with water getting split with electricity and turned into hydrogen so that's a good clean energy source and something that candidate could also be a leader in.
Dan Seguin 39:56
Okay, tough part is over. We always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some for you. Are you ready?
Marren Smith 40:07
I am. I'm ready. Okay,
Dan Seguin 40:09
So for the first one, what are you reading right now?
Marren Smith 40:12
So I just read picked up a book that I read a number of years ago, The Hearts Invisible Theories by John Bowen. It takes place in Ireland in the starts in the 40s, and follows the life of the other boy, that a man as he's going through, really coming into his own and discovering himself, and it's just beautifully written really great book.
Dan Seguin 40:40
Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Marren Smith 40:45
Well, you know, I lived on one for 11 years. And that boat was called Potential, but I thought about this permanent name of boat. Right now. I might name it unplugged, you know, because it would be the the ticket to just taking off and, and having some fun.
Dan Seguin 41:03
Who is someone that you admire?
Marren Smith 41:06
Yeah, I don't know, if you've heard of Christiana Figueres she was, for a number of years, the United Nations UNFCCC, which was the framework on climate change in the UN, she was the executive secretary there, she is just a fantastic climate leader, she is always positive. She continues to be optimistic in spite of all the challenges in this world, and so it got a smile on her face while she continues to do this work.
Dan Seguin 41:43
Next question, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed? Maybe 15 years ago, I used to work up in what's called the Great Bear Rainforest off the coast of British Columbia, we're taking our group of people out to go see the place and experience it the beautiful ancient rainforest, an area the size of Ireland. And we were whalewatching, watching humpback whales, and they go around in a circle, and they blow their bubbles and make a net out of it. And then they all go down, and they come up in the middle. So there was four of them doing this and they come up in the middle, they make that net around a little school of fish, and they open their mouths and come up and and scoop up all the fish. And we were watching them do that. And then suddenly, I looked off this side of the boat, and there was all these little fish leaping out of the water. And suddenly, the whales picked up our boat and lifted it out of the water. And so it was just amazing. And there they were, then they just kind of sit around at the top, we could have just reached over and pat them. And then I was like, oh my god, I just I wonder if they're hurt. And as we sat there, they all sort of swam away. And they completely breached came out of the water from nose from tip to tail, you could see them all, they hadn't done this before, one after the other all for them. So you could see that they were just fine. And then they swam away. Okay, moving on to the next one here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Marren Smith 43:32
Yeah, it's been this plethora of Zoom meeting staring at a screen hours after hour. And I'll tell you that I zipped out and got myself a stationary bike. And so during those zoom calls, everybody at first was laughing at me because I'd be kind of wiggling back and forth as I rode the bike slowly, just to keep myself going. And now all kinds of colleagues have now purchased stationary bikes as well.
Dan Seguin 44:09
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?
Marren Smith 44:17
You know, a number of months ago, my family and I went to see The Last City with Sandra Bullock just like a ridiculous funny comedy and I was laughing out loud. And I was just like, you know, it was after the depths of COVID. It just felt great to laugh out loud at something that was just completely goofy and frivolous.
Dan Seguin 44:43
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Marren Smith 44:49
It's the potential for the speed of change. You know, things are moving quickly. And it's that things can move quickly now Technology is ready for primetime. public understands that we need to take climate action. And governments and business are really seeing that economic strategy is going, you know, is is so linked to climate action. They see them as one in the same decarbonisation is what the economic future looks like.
Dan Seguin 45:25
Well, Marren, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how could they connect?
Marren Smith 45:37
Yeah, you can find us at cleanenergycanada.org. And you can also sign up on that for the Clean Energy Review, which is an email we send out every Monday morning that I hear from people in all walks of life from CEOs and ministers to receptionists and friends who don't even work in this. It's got the top 10 upbeat, optimistic solution based stories of the week, you can scan it in two minutes, or you can click on things and dive into these things in more details.
Dan Seguin 46:11
Again, Marren, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Marren Smith 46:16
I do. Thanks a lot for having me.
Dan Seguin 46:19
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The next decade is crucial when it comes to fighting climate change. Each one of us has a part to play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but it can be overwhelming to try and pinpoint where to begin. Melanie Johnston is the Director of Energy Programs at EnviroCentre in Ottawa, an environmental non-profit offering real solutions for reducing the environmental impact of not just individuals, but also communities. She joins this episode to share some tangible ways we can all lower our carbon emissions.
Related links
LinkedIn, Melanie Johnston: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-johnston-b3534956/
LinkedIn, EnviroCentre: https://www.linkedin.com/company/envirocentre-ottawa/
EnviroCentre: https://www.envirocentre.ca/
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Transcript:
Think_Energy_Podcast_EP97
Fri, Oct 07, 2022 12:37PM • 24:35
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
home, ottawa, energy, businesses, pandemic, people, climate change, mel, climate, city, audit, starting, transportation, programs, greenhouse gas emissions, bike, homeowners, reduce, achieve, program
SPEAKERS
Dan Seguin, Melanie Johnston, Rebecca Schwartz
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Sagan, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:29
Hey, everyone, welcome back. I'm Dan Seguin. And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, if the pandemic has shown us anything, it's how interconnected we all are. Even though our world became smaller and more insular, the actions needed to combat a worldwide health crisis required a global approach, highlighting that we're all in this together.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:57
This definitely holds true with respect to climate change. We've all heard how pivotal the next decade is to get things under control, it will take all of us -actions big and small -to help achieve the results necessary to make a difference.
Dan Seguin 01:10
That's right. We all have a part to play to prevent the planet from warming 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre industrial levels. For many residents, homeowners and businesses in the National Capital Region, who want to participate in this global call to action and do their part, it can be difficult to know where to begin and what steps to take to reduce our own carbon and environmental footprint.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:41
According to the Canadian Federation of Municipalities, about 50% of all greenhouse gas emissions or GHGs In Canada come from municipalities. That means that right here in Ottawa, we have the power to influence significant change over our individual and collective emissions.
Dan Seguin 01:58
The City of Ottawa has identified that approximately 90% of our city's GHG emissions are derived from buildings, and transportation, essentially, how we heat and cool our buildings, and how we move around the city.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:13
We know that being sustainable can seem a bit overwhelming, and maybe even a little bit abstract. We want practical solutions with real results that are also long lasting, and of course affordable.
Dan Seguin 02:25
In the case of climate change, it really will take a village, our village and every village. Luckily, we have a local organization in our very own village that is making a difference and leading the way by providing practical, actionable solutions from residents all the way to City Hall and the wider community here in Canada's capital city. So here's today's big question. What tangible actions can everyday citizens and businesses take the lower or eliminate their own carbon emissions?
Rebecca Schwartz 03:06
Today, we're going to talk to Melanie Johnston, Director of Energy Programs at Enviro Center, an Ottawa based environmental nonprofit that offers people organizations and communities real solutions to lighten their environmental impact. Hi, Melanie, welcome to the show. Perhaps you could start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and the four key areas of focus at EnviroCenter.
Melanie Johnston 03:30
Absolutely. So I'm Melanie Johnston. I'm the director of energy programs at Envira. Center. I've been with the group since December of 2009, where I thought I was just going to take sort of a part time job to get me over the Christmas hump, but I fell in love with and EnviroCenter and have been there ever since. So add at Enviro Center, our mission is to provide practical solutions to climate change that create positive environmental impact at scale. So right now our biggest focus is on helping people, businesses and communities reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. And we work in four core areas: green homes, green businesses, green transportation, and our green future for our city.
Dan Seguin 04:12
Thanks, Mel. Now, how can your programs and services help people make a practical link between their daily activities and their environmental impact?
Melanie Johnston 04:23
That's a great question and something we think about a lot here at EnviroCenter. One of the key messages underpinning all of our initiatives is that everything we do, from how we heat and cool our homes to how we get around town to the spending choices we make, has an impact on our city's carbon emissions. And that far from being powerless in the face of climate change, we can make everyday choices that will have a better outcome for the planet. All of the 22 sustainability programs we run an Envirocenter are aimed at helping make those everyday choices easier for folks.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:51
This next question is related to your work and data, in terms of what it showed you thus far of Ottawa's willingness to make change. Are there some success stories that you could share with us?
Melanie Johnston 05:02
Absolutely. So we know that the majority of Canadians believe in climate change, and that most who do acknowledge that global warming is caused by humans. Here in Ottawa, the city declared a climate emergency in 2019. And we have a robust climate change master plan outlining targets and a roadmap on how the city intends to get there. So I'd say there's definitely willingness to make change. In terms of success stories. Yes, I'm happy to say that there are many of those. Over this summer we've been running a program to facilitate the adoption of electric vehicles through educational events, and free test drives. And the response from the community has been phenomenal. The vast majority of folks we interact with understand that electrification is coming. And he's okay with the change. And we've seen a similar acceptance of home energy retrofits to and programs like the federal Greener Homes Grant has helped thousands of Canadians access energy audits and other opportunities for energy efficiency.
Dan Seguin 05:58
Okay. Now, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieve the zero emission targets?
Melanie Johnston 06:07
Oh, well, I think the biggest challenge we face is the sheer pace and scale at which we need to do the work that will get us to zero emissions by 2050. What a lot of folks don't realize is that in order to achieve the zero emissions by 2050 target, which is a widely recognized by scientists and policymakers, as what is needed to avoid the worst effects of climate change, most of the work to reduce our carbon emissions needs to happen in the next eight years. The problem is that while we know what that work is, and how to do it, so things like renewable energy sources, making everything we do more energy efficient and electrify everything- the level of funding it requires isn't there yet. The good news is that the more conversations we have like this, the more people who understand what is needed there are, the closer to get to where we need to be.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:54
Okay, let's talk about emissions from buildings. What's the first step homeowners should take when looking to reduce their climate impact? And why?
Melanie Johnston 07:03
Definitely a home energy audits. That's basically a comprehensive visit with Natural Resources Canada registered energy advisor, and they can provide recommendations on how to improve the energy efficiency of your home.
Dan Seguin 07:15
This next one, Mel probably comes up a lot. What does an energy audit cost? And what does it involve? So the initial audit cost somewhere between four and $600, depending on which service organization you go with, and virus Hunter is one, but there are lots of other great ones here in Ottawa. The visit itself takes about two hours and the advisor is going to do a thorough inspection of your of your home, they're going to look at your mechanicals, your heating your cooling systems, your ventilation, they're going to look at your insulation levels and measure those insulation levels in your home, check the state of your windows and doors. And then most importantly, we run a blower door test which essentially depressurizes your home and really gives us an idea of where you're getting air leakage. It's also a really importantly, I would say, the opportunity to engage with the energy adviser and the homeowner together to talk about the concerns that you might have in your house questions you might have about the performance and really just talk about what it is that you're looking to get out of this energy audit. And if you don't know anything about it, the energy advisor is there to provide you with lots and lots of recommendations for energy efficiency upgrades in the home. Now, mill, what comes after the energy audit?
Melanie Johnston 08:33
Once you've done the audit, and I should mention that there's always the first step. So before you start doing anything in your home, just always get an energy audit, because you're going to miss the boat on some funding and financing opportunities. But after the audit, essentially, you'll get a report that outlines everything that the energy advisor is found in the home, the current state, and then there's going to be those recommendations. So if you've got an old furnace, for instance, that's end of life, there's going to be a recommendation to put a heat pump in. You know, if your insulation levels are low, there'll be recommendations to improve the insulation levels in the home, you're also get a get an energy label. And that is a comparison of how your house performs against all the other houses in Canada. And it's really in it's informative for you, it tells you basically how your home is performing. Once you've got all that information, then it's time to actually do the retrofits. So you know, do you do the work on your home, follow those recommendations. One- all of the recommendations really up to you as an individual. And once that's all said and done, then we recommend the follow up audit. So basically, you have somebody come back in, they're going to verify all the work that you did. And again, more importantly, they're going to run that blower door test and hopefully we're going to see that the home is performing better than it was before you did all that work. And you get a new label which again would show a better better score against the houses in across the country.
Rebecca Schwartz 10:02
All right, we know that you're involved with the City of Ottawa as Better Home Loan Program. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what your role is?
Melanie Johnston 10:09
Sure. So, the city basically received some funding from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to develop this loan program. Lots of municipalities across the country are starting these, it's basically a low interest loan that is tied to your property, its value is basically 10% of your property value, up to $125,000, to go towards improving the efficiency of your home. So again, similar to what I was saying about the energy audit, you know, improving your mechanicals moving to electrification in your systems, improving the insulation, you're building envelope, and then it's got some other really cool things that it will cover, as well. So things like adding a secondary suite to your unit. There's some health and safety things that that it'll cover. And it's really interesting program that I think will benefit a ton of folks in Ottawa, our role is really just the administration of the program. So we're there to help homeowners with their application process, we provide energy coaching services. So if you're stuck in your journey, and you're not sure what to do next, we're there to provide that information. We also provide additional reports that are the aim of getting homes to net zero. So just a little bit more information on going above and beyond maybe what the energy audit would show you. The other thing is that we run the Better Homes audible website, which is designed to be a one stop shop for people who are starting their retrofit journey or even if they're already in the journey, tons of resources at Better Homes Ottawa on how to choose a contractor. Lots of technical information, if you're really curious about how a heat pump works. And then really, I think where a lot of people are looking at to get information on that website is access to rebates and incentives, like the loan program.
Dan Seguin 12:03
Okay, so hoping we can shift our focus now to your work with businesses. What services doesn't EnviroCenter provide to businesses?
Melanie Johnston 12:13
So we have a variety of services for businesses. We've got an online option that provides access to self guided worksheets and general information for businesses that want to start to take action towards reducing their carbon footprint, and becoming more sustainable. We have a membership based program called the Ottawa Green Business Hub, of which Hydro Ottawa is a member. And that service provides businesses with the tools and customized support to measure and manage their carbon footprint. And it also augments the business's capacity to set and achieve their sustainability goals. And then we also offer some consulting services that are really based on a business's individual needs, we've we've got four or five consulting contracts right now looking at a variety of things from waste to travel. And a good example is work that we've actually done with the city of the program called Travel Wise, where we're able to help businesses assess how employees get to work and make suggestions for sustainable options, basically trying to get you know, those single single occupancy vehicles off the road. And so yeah, there's a variety of things that we can do for businesses. I encourage folks just to reach out to us to see how we can get you started.
Dan Seguin 13:24
Proof points are always important. Are business cases or success stories shared among Ottawa businesses for greater learning, and adoption?
Melanie Johnston 13:35
Absolutely. Sharing success is a really important piece of our business program. And in fact, we organize an annual celebration of their achievements called the evening of recognition. And there we hand out awards to businesses that we've seen had the greatest progress in achieving their goals. We also talked to them in our annual green business report and share success stories throughout the year on our blog.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:57
Okay, we read in your report that there's approximately 20,000 businesses here in Ottawa. What programs do you offer? And what are some of the benefits that these businesses can see when they do set targets to reduce their environmental impact?
Melanie Johnston 14:11
Sure. So you know, sort of like I was saying before, we've got the variety of those business services, the suite of services, the online version being very affordable, and again, just a gateway to starting the conversation. And then the the further you are along in your sustainability journey is when you would start to get more involved in say our hub program, where you are accessing a little bit of a higher level of technical expertise in target setting, and helping folks choose what they want to do in their businesses to make them more sustainable. I would say that probably the the biggest outcome that businesses are interested in and actually see results in is saving money for their business.
Rebecca Schwartz 15:00
Okay, so how does the sustainable green economy benefit all of us?
Melanie Johnston 15:03
Um, well, I would say that the only economy going forward will be a green economy. And indeed, we are working to help build the workforce of tomorrow. One program we run is a training opportunity especially focused on upskilling folks from underrepresented communities to become registered energy advisors. As we scale the number of homes being retrofitted. We need more of those registered energy advisors, not just at Envira center, but in our city, in our province and in our country.
Dan Seguin 15:31
Okay, Mel. It seems that transportation causes more than 40% of autos, greenhouse gas emissions, what are some of the programs or initiatives that Envirocenter runs that residents should know about?
Melanie Johnston 15:47
Yes, that's right. Transportation is one of the biggest challenges we face here in Ottawa. Our most popular sustainable transportation program is less bike which runs every June. So of course, we encourage cycling all year round where possible. We also raise awareness of electric vehicles with our website, EVexperience.ca. And we work with the Ottawa Student Transportation Authority to promote active transportation to and from school. So that's actually one of my, my favorite programs. We've got a really cool app called the Hop App that kids can actually like, log their trips to and from school and it makes it super fun.
Dan Seguin 16:21
In terms of transportation, what are some initiatives that Ottawa is doing? That's exciting you?
Melanie Johnston 16:29
Whoo, I probably say the electrification efforts from evey vehicle charging stations to the fleet of 450 buses that will become part of OC transpose fleet by 2027.
Rebecca Schwartz 16:40
Okay, so Ottawa is a city of 1 million people. What would you like to see in terms of residents advocating for systematic change and greener lifestyles in our city?
Melanie Johnston 16:50
Um well, pushing for change is one of the most impactful ways we have of making a difference. Right now, the best way we can do it in Ottawa is by voting in the upcoming municipal elections. Not just voting, in fact, but also engaging with the candidates to learn more about their climate platforms and to push them to be more ambitious. I learned recently, that here in Canada, our local governments have influence over 50% of the country's greenhouse gas emissions. And that gives you an idea of how important it is that we elect local leaders who care about climate. There are other ways to push for change to you know, have conversations with your friends, family and co workers about climate, right to your MPs and MPs. Tell the businesses you shop at they expect them to do better.
Dan Seguin 17:34
Mel, what would you say to someone who asks, how can one person out of a million make a differenc when it comes to environmental change?
Melanie Johnston 17:44
It's really important to recognize that while our individual impact when it comes to something as big as climate change may seem small, our collective impact is massive. So to give you an example, our annual let's bike campaign in June is all about encouraging folks to bike. When they join last bike, they have access to an online app where they can log their bike trips and see how much greenhouse gas they've averted by choosing not to drive, each individual bike trip might not seem like much. But at the end of June, you see not just your personal tally, but also the collective tally of the 1500 participants. And those numbers can be quite impactful. This year, the results came in at 65,000 kilograms of greenhouse gas averted, which is the equivalent of burning 151 barrels of oil, or the energy use of nine homes for a year just by choosing the bike.
Dan Seguin 18:35
Big question here. Do you feel that we've entered a new level of consciousness with respect to the environment and climate change since a pandemic? What are some of the biggest examples of this lifestyle shift at a local level and globally?
Melanie Johnston 18:50
Well, I mean, certainly people being at home has made a big difference sort of, you know, in reductions in transportation. You know, we've we've seen a dramatic decrease in the number of daily commuters going to work. There's some research to suggest that the pandemic has affected people's attitude Toots towards the environment, making them more aware of the fragility of the environment and increasing their support of green policies. But of course, the truth is like climate change is happening regardless of what other crisis we are facing. I think it's fair to say that over the past few years, be it from the pandemic or other events like this summer's heat waves in the US and the Europe and forest fires out west of the storm right here in Ottawa a few months ago. There's just a wide, widespread sense of urgency and that many people are willing to make changes. They just don't always know which are the changes that are going to make the biggest difference.
Dan Seguin 19:46
Mel, are you seeing this translates into real policy change and green funding at levels of government?
Melanie Johnston 19:54
Yes and no. On paper here in Canada, we have sound policies and plans but when it comes to implementing them and actually getting a drop in the emissions reductions, we're still falling short. There is funding available but the kind of change and action that is needed right now requires a lot more funding than what we're seeing. Overall though, I am hopeful and positive that we will get there. The work that I do at EnviroCenter shows that change is possible. We just need to keep working together to achieve it.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:21
Okay, Melanie, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some for you ready?
Melanie Johnston 20:27
I am ready.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:28
What are you reading right now?
Melanie Johnston 20:30
I'm actually rereading The Handmaid's Tale, read it in high school and just got the bug to reread it and so little frightening actually.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:39
What would you name your boat if you had one?
Melanie Johnston 20:41
That's so funny. I actually just got a cute little electric fishing boat from a friend and we named it after him. His name is already vote. So we call it the SS or the boat.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:51
Who is someone that you admire?
Melanie Johnston 20:53
So I thought a lot. You know, I think about this a lot. It's nobody that you would know. But it's a former colleague of mine, Greg furlong, who unfortunately passed away this March. He was honestly just such a leader in the world of sustainability. He was an expert in building science taught me everything I know. He was a cycling advocate, and just an all around cool guy. And really, you know, somebody who lived and breathed sustainability, I learned so much from Greg and he literally has changed my life and how I approach you know, my day to day lifestyle.
Rebecca Schwartz 21:31
What's the closest thing to real magic that you may have witnessed?
Melanie Johnston 21:35
I'm gonna go ahead and say making a human having a baby. That's pretty magical.
Rebecca Schwartz 21:39
What's been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Melanie Johnston 21:44
Well, I broke my leg pretty seriously in February right before the lockdown. So you know, it's really tough. I had already been in lockdown before my whole family joined me. And I have to admit re entry back into the world was just surreal, because I didn't sort of see it happening in little pieces. It was just like, all of a sudden, I didn't know how the grocery stores worked anymore. I didn't understand, you know, different aisles and arrows. And so, yeah, I found it really challenging to sort of re enter the world. After after the lockdowns ended.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:16
Okay, so since we've all been watching a lot more TV and Netflix, we want to know what's your favorite show or movie?
Melanie Johnston 22:23
Well, I've gotten into all the new Star Wars series on Disney. So I'd have to say right now I'm just in the middle of the Obi Wan series, and I'm loving it.
Dan Seguin 22:33
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now.
Melanie Johnston 22:37
So I guess specific to the world that I work in, which is a lot on the residential retrofitting side is people are starting to look at embodied carbon in building materials, which I think is really cool, and really starting to understand sort of, you know, where our products are coming from and making smart choices about actually what we're putting in the buildings, as well as the idea of unbuilding. So instead of demolishing buildings, really taking them apart and and reducing the amount of construction waste that's out there. So those are two kind of cool things that are happening right now that people are starting to pay a little bit more attention to.
Dan Seguin 23:13
Well, Melanie, we've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Melanie Johnston 23:26
Envirocenter.ca best place to go. You can follow us on Twitter, you can follow us on Facebook, we've got Instagram, we're all over the social media. And so that's a good place to get to know all about and Envirocenter. And then we've got some other websites that are sort of linked to us. The one including the EV experience, which is a really cool spot, and our Better Homes Ottawa website as well.
Dan Seguin 23:50
Again, Melanie, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Melanie Johnston 23:56
I sure did. Thank you.
Dan Seguin 23:58
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada’s commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035, with a considerable amount of money allocated to getting Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there’s still a lot to be done.
Related links
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Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Are zero emission vehicles the answer to a stronger economy, cleaner air, a healthier environment and good jobs? The Government of Canada certainly thinks so. And they're not the only ones.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:50
EV enthusiast owners, experts and advocates have been mobilizing like never before. They're being driven on a renewed commitment and mandate by the Canadian government to make all light duty vehicle and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035.
Dan Seguin 01:05
A look at the 2022 Federal Budget shows that considerable money has been earmarked to get more Canadians into the driver's seats of an electric vehicle. According to the government's projections, at least 20% of all new passenger vehicles sold in Canada will be zero emissions by 2026. To give some perspective, last year in 2021, the percentage of zero emission vehicles sold in Canada was 5.2%. That gives five years for the government to reach its targets-doable?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:48
Well, since there's a rising trend in the demand of electric vehicles, many companies have actually gone out of stock. Automobile makers are experiencing a shortage in their EVs, and thus putting customers on waiting lists because of this high demand. Some manufacturers aren't even taking new orders for the foreseeable future because they just can't keep up.
Dan Seguin 02:08
So here's today's big question. Despite the momentum, are the real needs, issues and concerns by EV enthusiasts, owners, experts and advocates being addressed and setting the stage for success?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:25
Our guest today is Daniel Breton, the President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada, one of the oldest associations dedicated to the electrification of transportation in the world.
Dan Seguin 02:37
Electric Mobility Canada members include vehicle manufacturers, electricity suppliers, universities, tech companies, environmental NGOs, and many more.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:50
Daniel's background includes serving as the ex-Minister of the Environment, Sustainable Development, Wildlife and Parks. He was also the first elected official to oversee a government strategy for the electrification of transportation in Canada in 2012.
Dan Seguin 03:06
Daniel, thank you for joining us on the program today for what's a very busy week for you. To kick things off, can you tell us a bit about Electric Mobility Canada, its mandate, and what drove you to the organization?
Daniel Breton 03:25
Well, EMC's mandate, EMC being one of the oldest organizations in the world dedicated to electric mobility. Its mandate is basically to accelerate electric mobility of all sorts. So we're not just talking cars, but we're talking buses, we're talking trucks, we're talking off road, marine. So we have a growing diversified membership. So now we do have bolt makers and bus makers and truck makers and mining companies and research centers and tech companies. So So that's it. So our mission is really to accelerate electric mobility in all forms and shapes. I would say that electric mobility is growing really fast these days around the world. And we also want to make sure that while we want to accelerate electric mobility, to lower greenhouse gas emissions and air pollution, we also want to make sure that we create jobs in the process. So to me, we want to make sure that we have an EV supply chain that's made in Canada, and that we don't just end up extracting critical minerals in Canada to send elsewhere in the world like we have done so many times in the past. We want to develop our own industry. And this is happening right now. And, obviously, we do a lot of networking but amongst members, and we have our conference, you know, happening from September 27 to 29th. And we talk a lot to federal government, provincial governments, cities, some of which are members. And you're a member being City of Toronto [Ottawa]. So yeah, so that's what I do on a full time basis. That's what I've been doing for decades, actually. And we have a growing team; growing membership. So we're, it's really exciting, actually.
Dan Seguin 05:33
What's been the most significant event, innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption? For the better?
Daniel Breton 05:46
Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that may have made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 10, 15, 20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 and 2020- volume density of battery has grown eight fold. So when you look at batteries, today, you have, you can have a lot more capacity, and a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60 kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15 kilowatt hour battery from let's say, 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that is has more capacity, and the smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure, evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there was hardly any fast chargers on the road. So for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger petrol between Montreal and Quebec. That's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50 kilowatt charger. So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charge charging 120 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, weighing you know going from 50 kilowatt to 150 kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatt, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So so things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:55
On the other hand, what do you consider to be the most significant setback or barrier to the mass adoption of electric vehicles? Feel free to speak to Canada in general, and more specifically, right here in Ontario?
Daniel Breton 09:08
I would say it's education and training and supply. So that's the three the three things the three issues the roadblocks, first of all, supply. I mean, most EVs nowadays you have to wait between six months and three years to get your hands on one. So that's a real issue. We are supporting the federal government, and its will to adopt a federal ZEV (Zero-Emission Vehicle) mandate to make sure that we have more and more supply of electric cars across the country, but in Ontario in particular- I don't know if you remember this, but 11 years ago, the federal government and the Ontario government announced joint support for the assembly of the Toyota Rav4 EV. So both of them gave $70 million to assemble the Rav4 electric in Woodstock, Ontario, because there was no regulation no mandate in Ontario or in Canada for that matter, but because there was a mandat in California. And you have to keep in mind that back then there was a rebate of up to $8,500 in Ontario, even with the rebate 100% of these Toyota Rav4 EVs were sent to the US. So you could live two kilometers away from the plant, you could not buy one. So considering that now, the federal government and the Ontario government have invested billions of dollars into the assembly of either vehicles, or batteries, or cathodes or anodes across the country. We think that ZEV mandate is really, really super important for Ontario citizens. Because it would be a shame that we yet again, we would assemble electric vehicles and in Ontario, but because there are ZEV mandates, and 15 US states plus two Canadian provinces, while most if not all, of these electric vehicles assembled in Ontario would be sent elsewhere. So that's the first thing. The other thing is education, there's so much work that needs to be done. I mean, there's so there's so much disinformation or bad information, you know, going around in regular media, I mean, I read regular media on a daily basis about electric vehicles in English Canada, and I'm stunned to see how many bad articles written on electric vehicles. It's really bad. I mean, it used to be like that in Quebec, not so much anymore. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, and training, training for people to work in the auto industry. I did some training last year, for a car manufacturer, whose name I won't mention, but I was surprised to see how little they knew not only about the ecosystem, I mean, the chargers, the apps, the networks, but about their own product. I mean, I was teaching engineers at this manufacturer about their car. So to me, it shows how much work that there is still to do. Regarding the EV ecosystem- I often say when we're talking about electric vehicles, that when someone drives a gas car and wants to go to electric car, it's like saying, I've never owned a boat, I'm going to buy a boat. But there are a lot of different regulations when you are on the water because it's a different world. Well, it's a bit the same when you're talking about electric cars, because there are new things you need to learn about, in particular range, the way you use them on a daily basis. Winter driving, charging, obviously. So yeah, so education and training, I think is super important. And it's a roadblock right now.
Dan Seguin 13:12
Now, Daniel, what is your opinion of the adoption rates so far in Canada, which provinces or territories, or even companies are doing the best job at building an EV movement?
Daniel Breton 13:30
Well, I would say that provinces, obviously BC and Quebec are ahead of the curve. When you look at the Q1 EV sales number for Canada. While in Canada, we were at 7.7%. EV sales, according to Statscan. And BC, they were at 15.5%. So that's twice the national rate. And in Quebec, they were at 12.7%. At the meantime, Ontario was at 5.3%. So that shows that you need to have rebates. I think rebates are important, which you don't have anymore in Ontario, but you have to have mandates as well. Let me give you a perfect example of that. In BC, the rebate is up to $4,000 and Pei and New Brunswick it's $5,000. But because they have no mandate there, they have no supply so their their EV sales are below 5%. So I think it's very important to have both rebates and mandates regarding companies obviously Tesla is driving the charge. I mean, it's obvious. If you look at if if things keep rolling out like we are seeing today, the Tesla Model Y will be the best selling gas or electric vehicle in the world next year. I mean, this is no small feat. But so yeah, so Tesla is making a huge difference Tesla's a member of EMC, by the way, but we are seeing that some Korean manufacturers like Kia and Hyundai, are coming up with very interesting products. And I'm stunned to say this, but I think that the Japanese are being left in the dust, by even the Americans. And this is something I would have never predicted five or 10 years ago, we are seeing that there seems to be a lot of resistance on the part of Japanese manufacturers. And to me being old enough to remember, it looks to me a bit like what I saw in the 80s and the 90s, when the Japanese came really strong to the market, and they left the American manufacturers behind. So I think the Japanese manufacturers, not all of them, but most of them are going to have to wake up because right now they're really lagging behind.
Rebecca Schwartz 15:56
So we recently had Loren McDonald on the show, and he talked about how consumers need to shift the way that they think about EVs. He said that EVs are more like a smartphone that you charge every night and less like a traditional gas car that you head to the pumps for. Do you agree with that? And if you have a story or anecdote that you'd like to share, we'd love to hear it.
Daniel Breton 16:19
So well. I mean, obviously, EVs are becoming more and more like regular vehicles, because if you go back five or 10 years ago, as I mentioned, you know, a regular EV that was not $100,000, EVs had between 120 and 150 kilometers of range. So it was a very different story, then, my girlfriend still drives one of those EVs, I mean, she drives us a Smart Fourtwo electric, it has 100 kilometers of range, it doesn't even have fast charging. So so when she goes on the road, she she's aware of the way that this vehicle behaves, and the range that she can have winter or summer. But keep in mind that most Canadians, most families have more than one car nowadays. So I would say that the first EV, which would be like the family EV, which can be either a car or an SUV, or even a pickup truck is the one that you're going to use when you go traveling when you go on a trip when you go to see the family. And that one is the one that you drive every day because you use it every day. The second one, if you have a second car, it can be a smaller EV, or a plug in hybrid electric vehicle. And, and I always suggest to people not to buy two big cars with two big batteries. I think it's a waste from an economic point of view, and environmental point of view. So, so if you want to talk about anecdotes, I remember when my girlfriend first got her car. I mean, I remember the second or the third night we went to drive in movie. And the range were the range that she had left was about 25 kilometers. And you have to, to plug the vehicle you have to connect to the radio to hear the movie. And she was honestly she was freaking out because she said, I'm not gonna have enough range to go back. We can't watch all of the movie. So we did not we ended up going back home before the end of the movie. It took her was, say, a couple of weeks before she got used to the range of her vehicle. Keep in mind that it doesn't have a lot of range. Now that she knows how the car behaves, she's not stressed anymore. One thing that happens to all of us is at one point we forget to charge a car or to plug the car at night. You know, it happens to us once or twice, but most of the time, then you remember it's like your phone, you know one night you'll come back home, you're tired. You don't plug the phone the next morning say oh my god, I have no, I have no capacity. There's there's no range. So that's the type of thing that you learn from. It happens to you a couple of times and then you know, I would say. What do you think are the biggest social drivers for the recent uptick in EVs? Is it really the high price of gas? Or is it connected to something bigger? I think it's a few things I think first gas prices have made a huge difference. Because people are seeing that there's a really it's really interesting to buy an electric car with those gas prices. But more than that, the fact that there are more and more child choices of different models and shapes of EVs You know with the new F150 lightning coming to market, you know the Kia EV6, the Hyundai Ioniq 5. These are really appealing vehicles. So I think that choice and and price is making a big difference. I mean, I'm sure you saw that but a couple of weeks ago, GM announced that they were coming up with their new Equinox EV starting at $35,000. And I don't know if you know this, but I just saw the price for the base Honda CRV. It's $36,000. So now, if you look at small SUV, electric, small SUV gas. Without the rebate, the small SUV the CRV is even more expensive than the base version of the Equinox EV? So even though people say prices of EV keep going up and up and up. It's not necessarily true. It depends on the model. Yes, some people do want more expensive electric car. But let's be honest here. You know, many people who buy the base model of any vehicle, gas or electric, it doesn't happen. It just doesn't. So I would say that prices of vehicles have gone up way up actually gas or electric. But we are seeing at the same time. So I'm very competitive models in on the EV side, especially from GM and I have to salute them for that.
Dan Seguin 21:29
I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100%, EV passenger sales by 2030 and all other vehicles by 2040?
Daniel Breton 21:44
Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's GHG emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%. Because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And and Nova Scotia intends to go I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 120 billion from air pollution. And that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to lower significantly air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least- jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in Gatineau this morning. I've been I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on I have to salute Minister Champagne for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly battery assembly battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So we are seeing a real shift I mean you have to keep in mind that between 2000 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from fourth biggest manufacturer in the world, to not even be the top 10 in 2020. Now, because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry, we are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me, this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030, or 2035. So this is huge.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:33
Electric Mobility Canada recently launched a 2030 EV action plan with the goal of highlighting how we get to an EV future by 2030. So what is this and what was involved in its creation?
Daniel Breton 25:48
Well, most members of EMC were involved with the creation of the 2030 EV action plan. So it meant, you know, manufacturers, it meant infrastructure providers, utilities, research centers. So I mean, we have a large pool of very qualified experienced people, or either staff or on our board, or our GR Committee on our MHD working group, or battery working group, our utilities working group, so all of these minds come together to say, this is what we recommend for the future of Canada regarding e-mobility. So so yeah, so it was a broad consultation amongst ourselves to see what kind of policies we could put in place to accelerate EV adoption. And I would say that the result has been significant, because we have seen a lot of interest from the federal government, amongst others. Regarding our recommendation, whether it was for- I'll give you an example, at the end of July, I was invited by a Minister Alghabra's Cabinet to be at his announcement for their new medium and heavy duty vehicle incentive program. Because we basically wrote the program, we sent it to them, we had some exchanges, and they said, this does make sense. And we learn from other programs elsewhere in the world or elsewhere in Canada. So I mean, it is significant. We're talking about more than half a billion dollars to accelerate EV adoption regarding any medium and heavy duty vehicles. Obviously, the infrastructure deployment program, almost a billion dollars is something that's going to make a big difference to accelerate EV adoption. This was also part of our recommendation and 2030 action plan. And but we're not stopping there to us that 2030 Action Plan was was an important, I would say, moment and EMCs history. But we are coming up with newer updated revised recommendations, new documents being published. So this is a, you know, this is a work in progress.
Dan Seguin 28:15
Okay, great. We're going to discuss the six pillars of the plan today, which I think covers a lot of the issues and concerns raised by many Canadians. Let's dig into pillar number one, light duty EV; consumer adoption. Some of the highlights under this pillar include price parity, with gas cars, some clever incentive proposal and removing caps for taxis, and ride sharing companies to move fully electric. Can you talk to some of these and what your ultimate goal with this pillar is?
Daniel Breton 28:58
Well, this pillar is to not only encourage EV adoption, but discourage gas guzzler adoption, because we have what we call, you know, the fee based system that we recommend. I've been talking about this for more than 10 years. Because, while people are buying more and more EVs at the same time they're buying more and more light trucks, gas light trucks. And this is an issue because we see that, you know, what most manufacturers offer now is more and more SUVs, pickup trucks and crossovers. So cars are less and less bought by Canadians because there are less and less manufacturers by OEMs. You know, if you go to a Toyota dealer, there's no honda fit anymore. There's no Yaris anymore, but there's more and more of those SUVs. So so for us a fee based system, I think is a recommendation that's important, but it's not an easy one to adopt. We have not seen anyone in North America I'd love the feedback system yet. We it has shown to be very effective in Europe. But it's it's an issue. And you know, in North America and Canada and Canada in particular when one thing that I'm really focusing on is the fact that for us, it doesn't make sense that, you know, car sharing companies, car hauling companies would have a cap of 10 vehicles that can get the federal rebate. Because not only do we want to encourage the transition to EVs, but especially in downtown areas, we want to make sure that if people don't know don't need to buy a car, and they can use a car sharing service, well, they should be encouraged to do so. And the car sharing services should be encouraged to electrify their fleet. So for us, this cap has to go. This is something I've been discussing with people in the federal government. And we are coming up with more data and information, you know, explaining why we need this. Other than that, no, you're we're talking about evey rebate for for used vehicles. This is actually in one of the mandate letters. And it has been in the mandate letters for a number of years now at the federal level, the program has still not been put together. So we are anxiously waiting to see what's going to happen with this. And last but not least, I don't know if you know about this. But in California, there is a particular rebate on top of the regular rebate for low income individuals and families who want to buy an electric car. So we think that this is something important for people who have, you know, we're not as affluent to be able to buy an electric car.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:52
So Daniel in pillar two you discuss medium heavy duty and off road fleet electrification and a number of rebates, tax credits, and offsetting costs for electrical infrastructure. What are some of the key takeaways? And what about the tools and restrictions for large polluters? Can you speak to that a little bit?
Daniel Breton 32:13
Well, I would say that what we are seeing because of this very important announcement from Minister Alghabra, this summer, what we are seeing now is that the main issue or the main challenge is infrastructure. Let's say you are a transit agency, and you want to buy a whole fleet of electric buses, you have to charge them. And the garages that we have in Canada have not been planned this way. So we have to really either adapt them or build new garages. But this is something that can be done. I mean, right now, there's less than 1000 electric buses in Canada, closer to 600. and China, they have more than 600,000 electric buses. And I was I was told a few years ago by someone from a trade transit agency whose name I won't mention that, because in this particular city that this person worked in population density made it harder for them to electrify buses. So I couldn't help but reply that, yes, because China, as we all know, does have a lot of people. So so to me, that was it was not an argument. I mean, if you want to plan this, you'll find a way. I mean, this, you know, there's the saying, you know, if if you want to do it, you find a way if you don't want to do it, you find an excuse. So to me, this is really a challenge regarding, you know, transit fleets, we're talking about trucks. Well, depo charging is going to be very important. But right now, this is not something that's been planned or budgeted in the federal government's programs. So we are looking to try and recommend to the government that we put together a particular program for medium and heavy duty vehicle infrastructure, this is something that we that needs to be done. And regarding off road vehicles, so off road vehicles is a different issue because a lot of people seem to think that if you buy a snowmobile, or Sea-Doo or a side by side, that it's just for fun, but a lot of people work with these snowmobiles and see those and side by side because they work in a park that they work at a ski station, work on a construction site. So keep in mind that our regulars, modern snowmobiles, it pollutes as much talking about air pollution here as 40 modern cars, gas cars. So from an air pollution point of view, it's a big win for people to adopt electric off road vehicles. So that's why we are pushing for that as well. Not to mention the fact that some of the companies making those side by sides and snowmobiles are Canadian companies. So it's not only good for the air pollution, but it's also good for job creation as well. And expertise. I mean, after all, I mean, where else then in Canada, should we have electric snowmobiles to start with I mean, it should be starting here. And it is starting here.
Dan Seguin 35:47
Okay, at least 1/3 of Canadians live in multi unit residential buildings today. Under pillar number three, you go into some details about the national EV infrastructure deployment plan. What are the targets and recommendations you believe are needed when it comes to public charging and making condos and apartments EV ready?
Daniel Breton 36:15
Well, there needs to be some regulation put together either by provinces or cities to accelerate EV adoption and merge, you know, multi unit residential buildings. Actually, I learned just a few days ago that the city of Laval, Quebec has put together an EV ready regulation that says something we are seeing in BC. And this is something we should see across the board across the country. Because it's not just about, you know, incentives for people to install EV chargers in condominiums, because some, some condo owners and all their their syndicate. They simply don't want that they don't allow for that to but to be able to, you know, for people to install them. So we think that there needs to be regulation so that, you know, there should be a right to charge. And this is something very important. We are asking the federal government but other governments as well, to make sure that at least we have at least a million chargers by 2030 across the country. We think it's very important because yes, public charging is key. But let's face it 80 to 90% of charging happens where? At home or at work. So if we have both public chargers and verb chargers and home chargers, this is the only way we're going to be able to reach our targets regarding EV options.
Dan Seguin 37:50
Okay, here's a follow up question for you, Daniel. Where do you see utilities playing a role in the 2030 EV action plan?
Daniel Breton 38:01
They will play a big role. I mean, they have so much to win from EV transition, that it's really surprising that some utilities don't see the interest. I wouldn't say that Canadian utilities don't see the interest, I would say that most of them do. Most utilities in Canada are members of EMC, we have a utilities working group, they are looking at ways to help this transition it both from a technological point of view from a planning point of view, and from a regulatory point of view. So they do play a big role. But I was part of a discussion last year with people in the Ontario government. Because a lot of people in government were saying how much is this infrastructure deployment going to cost? You know, people in Ontario and utilities. And I said, I asked this question to a person from the Federal from the Ontario government. I said them, you know how much it costs you to import oil to make diesel and gas in Ontario on a monthly basis? And that person said no. So I looked at how much Ontario cars and trucks consume on a monthly basis. And I made a calculation that's $60 a barrel, which was lower a year ago, you know, and back then it added up to $1.2 billion a month. So if you take that $1.2 billion a month that just flies out of Ontario because Ontario is not a province that produces oil, and you bring it back in and you put that money into infrastructure and jobs and electricity production from Ontario utilities. It's a lot more money that stays in Ontario $1.2 billion a month is a lot of money. So that means that we, Ontario does have the means to electrify its fleet and to update and yeah, to update its grid.
Rebecca Schwartz 40:10
Next, what are the benefits to the government launching a national 2030, EV strategy and regulation? And why is this so important?
Daniel Breton 40:19
Well, that's something that we are seeing already, you know, with the very important announcement that have been made by Prime Minister Trudeau, Minister Champagne, Minister Wilkinson, because keep in mind that when we're talking about create job creation, and and the EV sector, it's not just about car assembly or truck assembly or bus assembly, it's also about infrastructure, manufacturing, you know, whether we're talking about level two chargers, you know, the main sponsor of our e 2022. Conference is Grizzly, which is a company based in Ontario, and they make residential chargers, but they're going to start making public chargers, and they're doing it in a way that's very efficient. So that's show creation as well, where we're talking about construction jobs for those infrastructures, where we're talking about mining jobs, and processing jobs. So there was a report released by the International Energy Agency a few days ago, that said, that stated that right now, in Canada, we are right now about at 50/50 when we're talking about the percentages of job, and fossil fuel versus renewables, and electric mobility, and that's 2022. But we all know that between now and 2030, the number of jobs created, and renewables and green mobility is going to be much higher than in fossil fuels. So this is very important. We're talking job creation, you know, from the whole spectrum. We're going from mining to mobility.
Rebecca Schwartz 42:06
Okay, so a quick follow up for you, though, a couple of items under the fourth pillar that we found to be interesting was the Green SCRAP-IT program and your recommendation to help rural northern First Nations and Inuit communities? Can you briefly talk about those and the rationale?
Daniel Breton 42:26
Well, the Green SCRAP-IT program is inspired by stuff that we are seeing that we have seen in Quebec and BC, because of what we're seeing is that for people who drive older vehicles, whether it's for individual cars, or old buses, for instance, because some of those buses have been on a roll for a long time, and their pollution levels are through the roof. So we want to help either it's companies, individuals, or transit authorities, school boards, to transition to electric vehicles, whether it's, you know, cars, trucks, buses, school buses. But it's a way for us to make sure that we do accelerate the transition, but it regarding individual vehicles, what we are saying is that we should accelerate scrappage program. But what some people are saying in the industry is that should people should, you know, just get rid of the old car and be able to buy a new car, and it could be a gas car. So we don't agree with that. But not only that, when people let's say somebody gets rid of his or her Honda Civic, and decides to buy a brand new Honda CRV, well, air pollution is going to be lower, but GHG emissions is going to be higher because it's a bigger car. And GHG emissions are directly linked to fuel consumption. So it's not because you buy a new car that necessarily it's that good for the environment. So that's why we're saying our SCRAP-IT program should be linked either to the purchase of electric vehicle, but it can also be a transit pass. It can be an electric bike, it can be car sharing service, carpooling service, because, yes, electric mobility is a key ingredient in the solution to lower GHG emissions, or we're talking about transportation, but it's not the only one. So that's why because I've been working at this for decades. I know that we have to also encourage, you know, collective transportation, active transportation, car sharing, carpooling, commute work. All of this is part of solution when we're trying to find not only ways to lower GHG emissions but to lower traffic congestion as well. Regarding First Nations and remote communities, I live in the country. I don't live downtown Montreal for though because we hear that very often, you know, oh yeah, electric cars are only good for those who live in the city and try, you know, a commute around the city. While actually when you look at the Cape, the Quebec data 75% of EV owners in Quebec live outside of Quebec and Montreal, why? For a very simple reason, because they have either a garage or a driveway, it's a lot easier to plug your car, when you have garage or driveway, than when you live in a suburb. I'm sure you know this as well as I do. But for those who live further down, you know, let's say you live in northern Saskatchewan, or in northern Ontario. And you say, well, it's going to be really hard for me to be able to have access to electric car, or to drive the long distances that we need to drive we live in, we live far away? Well, first of all, there seems to be some misconception about the fact that Canada is a big country, and therefore we drive a lot. We do a lot of mileage. That's just not true. Okay? The average driving from Canadians on a daily basis to go to work and back 80% of Canadians drive 60 kilometers or less to go to work and back. So what that means is that, no, it's actually 80 kilometers and back 80 kilometers to go to work and back. So. But this is very important, because most Canadians don't drive that much. I mean, the average driving habits of Canadians from the latest data, which is not new by any means, because the latest data that we found from the federal government was 2009. Believe it or not, this is so outdated, I can't believe it. But anyway, we were at 17,000 kilometers approximately. So 17,000 kilometers, is not that much driving. I mean, I because I travel a lot for my work, I drive more than 50,000 kilometers a year. So having an electric car and driving a lot is no issue. What we need is to make sure that remote communities have access to chargers, fast chargers, in particular, when you get out of the 401, the 417, the 15 the trans Canadian when you go more up north, it is an issue for many regions in Canada, especially when you live in the prairies. I've heard some people, you know, look for chargers didn't know where they were because no one explained to them, where to plug the vehicle, there were only level two chargers. So infrastructure is a real issue. For those who really live, you know, outside are most of the grid, you know, when you live in Nunavut, or Nunavik are, you know, you count the Northwest Territories. There are more and more chargers being deployed, then very often people who live there buy SUVs or pickup trucks. So now that we're seeing more and more SUVs and pickup trucks coming to market, it's becoming less of a challenge, but they do need to get them delivered over there. That's the first thing. The second thing for those who would be, I would say, more anxious about the fact that when it's minus 30 minus 40. You know, you lose up to 50%. And rage, worse comes to worse, you can always buy a plug in hybrid electric vehicle. Mean, meaning that you know, you're going to have some range, especially in the summer. In the winter, not so much. So, but but the truth of the matter is that, you know, I've been driving EVs for I've been driving partial and full EVs for 23 years now. So I know that even at minus 20, I've been going to Saguenay they actually were organized an EV day, and Saguenay in January at minus 25 minus, minus 30. We're 20 of us from Avec. I was with Avec back then we drove all the way up there. And no one had an issue. You just need to have the infrastructure and that's an issue. Right now. In Northern Ontario. It is an issue. And we are seeing that in northern provinces. We're in BC and Quebec I would say.
Dan Seguin 49:07
When it comes to federal leadership with respect to EVs in your sixth and last pillar, what is the government doing right? And what are your recommendations for improvement?
Daniel Breton 49:21
Well, I would say that what the government is doing right for EV adoption at the federal level, is that they are helping more and more departments by EVs. So to me, this is this is key, but we need to install a lot more chargers in federal buildings and federal parking that we have right now. As I mentioned, you know, I'm right across the river from the House of Commons. And I think that I see like less than 10 chargers at the House of Commons. To me this is far from being enough. When I was in Norway in June, we went to a city called Arendal, about 300 kilometers away from Oslo. And it's a small city 40,000 people. And there was an underground parking over there that could accommodate about 150 cars. There were 70 chargers. So, so we have a lot of catching up to do. Let's put it that way. And on that topic, I have to mention this. When I was in government, in in my government plan for the government of Quebec, 10 years ago, we had a plan to electrify ferries. So when we lost our election, you know, the the electrification of ferry fell, you know, in the cracks. When I was in Norway in June, I learned that there's 825 ferries in Norway, eight wto five 825 ferries in Norway. 400 of those 400 of those ferries are already electric. And the largest electric ferry in Norway can accommodate 600 people and 200 cars. So I think that if the Canadian government wanted to electrify its ferry lines, it would be a great opportunity for the marine industry in Canada to develop a new skill and create all you industry actually.
Rebecca Schwartz 51:33
So something that I thought was fascinating in this pillar was the zero emission zone in downtown Ottawa. Can you tell us what that is and why you recommended it or called out Ottawa specifically?
Daniel Breton 51:45
Well, I think it's because it's the symbol. I mean, Ottawa is the capital of Canada. So if we have a zero emission zone in Ottawa, I think it will send a strong signal that people could not drive gas or diesel vehicles in that particular area.
Dan Seguin 52:01
Okay, Daniel, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. And we have a few for you. Are you ready?
Daniel Breton 52:11
Go ahead.
Dan Seguin 52:12
Okay. Here's number one. What are you reading right now?
Daniel Breton 52:17
Oh, my God. That's funny, because, you know, I used to read a lot of novels when I was younger. Now all I read is sports. I need that I read battery reports and I need books and I read everything related to electric mobility. The oil industry energy transition. So basically, most of the reading that I do is scientific or economic. That's That's my bedtime reading. Yeah.
Dan Seguin 52:48
Okay. What would you name your boat? If you had one?
Daniel Breton 52:54
I don't have one because I'm an old time windsurfer. So I live, I mean, my house is by the St. Lawrence River. So I windsurf in my backyard. So and I don't intend to have a boat. But I I keep windsurfing. Even though I turned 60 this year. I want to die windsurfing. Want to wind surf until I die. So yeah.
Dan Seguin 53:18
Moving on to the next one who is someone that you admire?
Daniel Breton 53:23
I admire a lot of people. It's hard to tell. Because I mean, so many people that I admire, I mean, believe it or not my I said my girlfriend but my wife because I got to wait three weeks ago. Thanks. She met with the Dalai Lama a few years ago, because she used to be a member of parliament and she was the only Buddhist Member of Parliament. So she met with the Dalai Lama. So that's a person that I really admire. Nelson Mandela, I really admire obviously, being from Quebec and native and you have to keep in mind that there and Ivanka has done a lot. For those who are in Ontario. You know, a lot of people think about independence, but when I think about going to the bank, I think about metal she knew when he was natural resources minister, and, and they held the referendum election of the nationalization of electricity 1962 And that helped propel Hydro Quebec from a small company to one of the biggest forces in the world regarding electricity production, and cleaning, electricity production for that matters. There's not a size and a need Ivanka are really important in my mind, I would say and even though he is controversial, I would say Elon Musk, you know, I mean, he's done so much. And he is such a leader and and you ways of doing things, but I don't always agree with him. But I have to say that when you work in electric mobility, it was what if it was not for him? We will not be there today.
Dan Seguin 55:10
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Daniel Breton 55:15
That's a good question. Real closest thing to real magic, I would say is that it was the night that I saw an aurora borealis. It's very spectacular.
Dan Seguin 55:28
Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Daniel Breton 55:36
To me personally, I mean, a lot of people close to me, I've got COVID, my mother's got COVID, she's been very sick. So many people close to me, either, were really sick. A friend of mine, you know, fell in a coma for almost 20 days. So I thought he was going to die. Another friend of mine, 52 years old, died from COVID. So so this is at, you know, this hit home really hard. For me as see point of view, keep in mind that I started at EMC on March 9 2020. And, and the first thing that I did as CEO of EMC, was to cancel a conference. So my first decision was to cancel a very important event for EMC for its members. And I remember, I cancelled it like March 15, like a week after I had come in. So people were really not sure about what I was doing, because it was this new guy canceling the conference. Is he nuts, but I was just, you know, in front of the curve. So it was complicated for us. Because since I would say that I was pretty much the only one to cancel an event of any big event or conference in 2020. I had a lot of issues with hotels and people that we paid for, because they said, not gonna happen. What you're saying doesn't make sense, these events will happen. We don't want to reimburse you. So we had to fight for months and months to get our money back. Because at one point, everybody came to the conclusion that there was no other way around this. But it was a couple of months that were really very hard. I can tell you that.
Dan Seguin 57:27
We've all been watching a lot of Netflix or TV lately. What's your favorite movie, or show?
Daniel Breton 57:37
Right now? I watched a series called the Casa de Pepe. It's a Spanish TV series. It's super weird, but it's very interesting. And, and the other one that I've been watching recently, because keep in mind that my wife is Vietnamese. So it's a short call, I think career plan or something like that about an Asian woman who was a lawyer. And it's it's served career and it's her path in life. And my girlfriend is a career woman, she has been very successful. So this is something that we watch together.
Rebecca Schwartz 58:17
Okay, lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Daniel Breton 58:21
Oh, my God. I would say that it's just this- listen, I've been talking about EV and EV adoption and EV industry for decades now. So for for many years, I felt like I was, you know, this nut case, you know, that walks around, you know, the cities, you know, repent. The end is near, you know, I felt like because I was talking about I was talking about, you know, climate change, because I studied and climate change. That's what I studied in when I was in university. So to me at one point around 2005 or so, I said, we have to talk, we have to stop talking only about depressing stuff and start talking about solutions. And that's when in 2005 I said I have to make it a goal of mine to find ways to accelerate EV adoption. That was 17 years ago, I created MCN 21 back then; wrote books on the subject. I've written many books on the subject. But still until five years ago, I mean, there were only a few of us. Now that we are seeing car manufacturers, truck manufacturers, plane manufacturers. You know, jumping and jumping on the bandwagon of electric mobility. It's very exciting. And I mean, I didn't even take a vacation this summer because there was so much job so many consultations, so many reports. So much stuff to do. So at one point I said that to federal employee I said you know oh, well, I mean, I would be nuts to complain, because I have too much work because I've been asking for this for many years. But I would say the most exciting thing is just the vibe. You know, it's just, it's just that. I mean, it's a hot topic nowadays. I mean, just two years ago, because I've been, I've been, I'm well known in Quebec, a lot of people know me, people. I know, people, people know me. I'm all over the media. But in the rest of Canada, it was not such a hot topic to talk about electric mobility until maybe a year ago, two years ago, the most. But now every week, you know, I'm not the only one. But a lot of people now do interviews about electric mobility, electric cars, and the chargers. And some of those articles, as I mentioned, are really bad. But I mean, we are talking more and more about this. So the old excitement, you know about this transition, I think is is is very encouraging. And I know that all of us will have worked for decades to come, because this is only the beginning.
Rebecca Schwartz 1:01:07
All right, Daniel. Well, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. But before we go, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Daniel Breton 1:01:19
Well, they can go to our website you know and find a contact. We have a growing growing team now. So we have more and more people working at EMC so they can connect with us. They can send me an email info@emc-mec.ca. I'm always reachable.
Dan Seguin 1:01:39
Again, Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Daniel Breton 1:01:45
Oh, I did. I thanks a lot. Very, very interesting conversation. I really appreciated that.
Dan Seguin 1:01:53
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
When does an electricity issue become a crisis, and how important is communication from utilities to their customers during these times? Boyd Greene and Amanda Townsend, directors at Oncor Electric Delivery in Texas—which is the fifth largest utility in the United States serving 13 million people—are no stranger to facing large-scale power outages and emergencies. They shared their experience in managing these situations on this episode of thinkenergy.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. According to the Weather Network, we can expect an increase in extreme weather events as a result of rising global temperatures. While assessing risk is in the DNA of every utility company, there are some utilities that are predispositioned to more frequent crises and emergencies. Is it hereditary? Or is it environmental? We're going to go with environmental. Utilities across the world are storm hardening their equipment and systems in preparation for more violent storms caused by climate change. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had its share of extreme weather events, with multiple wind storms, ice storms, floods, heatwaves, tornadoes, and a derecho. There is an undeniable rising trend in frequency, and duration of power outages as a result of extreme weather. That because these natural events can cause extensive damage to electrical infrastructure, which means utilities are undertaking a number of initiatives to improve the resiliency of their systems, so that when storms do occur, they are as prepared as possible. So what do you do when you have extreme weather events often, and they're the size of Texas. According to NPR, Texas, like many southern states, has been ravaged by a number of natural disasters of late. Some view these events as regular occurrences for the disaster prone state. Everything from frequent storms, droughts, and floods, to multiple tornadoes, hurricanes, and wildfires. It is common for residents in Texas to be without power for days, even weeks at a time, depending on the weather event. Some view the increased frequency, and the extreme violent nature of these events as a sign of climate change, and possibly worse things come. So here's today's big question. How does an electric utility in an area prone to large scale natural disasters like Texas, approach large scale power outages and destruction to their infrastructure? And how do they fix them, so their customers can be restored in a timely manner? Today's guests are no strangers to facing emergencies head on in the electricity industry. Joining me on the show is Boyd Greene, and Amanda Townsend from Oncore Electric Delivery. Oncore is the largest transmission and distribution electric company in the state of Texas, and the fifth largest utility in the United States. It serves 13 million customers. Boyd and Amanda, welcome to the show. Okay, let's begin. Oncore has faced some major storms over the years. What are three of the biggest lessons you've learned from a people and communications perspective when handling in electricity crises?
Amanda Townsend 03:58
That's a great question. The three biggest ones, there's way more than three. But I think the first one is you really, in those times, you can never really over communicate. But you do have to make sure that your communication is clear and concise. You know, you really need to focus in and make sure that people are getting the information that they need on the channel that they need it. Same thing applies to blue sky, but it's even more pertinent when you're in a storm mode. I would also say in the absence of information, people make up their own reality. And you have to be prepared to work through that you've got to circumvent that you've got to prevent that. You've got to get with media, all these type of things that you really have to do to tell the story, tell the narrative, help people understand what the big picture is, because it's a very personal thing when whether your power is out or whatever is happening. It's personal, it's to you. And you have to recognize that but you also have to help them see it's not just you it's everybody; you're not singled out. And then last but not least, people will find you. So if you're not communicating, they will find you. I, you know, I've had people find me on Facebook on LinkedIn and send me messages. And, you know, they're just, they're, they're desperate for information. And so you know, you need to be out there, you need to be in front of it.
Boyd Greene 05:24
So if I can add to that, just from an operations perspective, it's extremely important that operations has a good relationship with the customer facing folks, because we rely on each other to get that message out, to help our customers.
Amanda Townsend 05:39
Okay, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what your communication strategy is, during the crises, who's in the room, and on your team? What are the vital roles? So it varies from storm to storm, but if we're talking large scale storm, you know, we're going through the full Incident Command Process, and you've got all leadership that's in the room together all trying to make decisions and give each other information, our communication strategy is really try to get ahead of weather that we can predict, right, start pushing out information on social, don't want to bother people. So we don't want to send like a ton of push alerts, because that's not really what they signed up for. They can check The Weather Channel, but really trying to make sure that people understand, hey, we're here we see it come in, we're ready to respond. That's the message we want to get out there. And then throughout the storm, you know, we're working closely with our operations folks getting information, trying to make sure that we're understanding the areas of impact, you know, if we're going to have to set up restoration areas are we going to have to bring in mutual assistance, what's really going on out there, so that we can turn around and tell the story. You know, in my role, I'm really focused on customer communications, we have another team that's really focused on media communications. And so we're all working together to make sure that we have the same narrative that we're giving the same information, so that there's no confusion. We also, you know, we will communicate through a lot of our other internal channels. So we have area managers that are responsible for working with city officials. And so if we know there's impacted areas, we can convey information out to them, we can develop social post anything that they need to communicate with their constituents, we do, we try to reach out each and every way that we can to capture everybody. Thanks for that. Let's dive into the technology channels or tactics you rely on most, during a crises to communicate with your customers and the public at large. Maybe you could expand on video, social maps, and so on. So we try to communicate across a lot of different channels, because you really want to meet the customer where they're at. So we do a lot of pushing things out on social we can do, you know, targeting by zip code, all those sorts of things. You know, that's somewhat effective. But that doesn't capture everybody. You know, during a crisis situation, when there's a large scale power outages, that's, you know, your storm map is the most valuable tool that you have in your belt, because that's where people are coming for information. That's where the media is hanging out. So anything you put out there is that's where your message is going to get cast from. So we really know that and we leverage that opportunity to provide as much information as we can. We'll also send out ad hoc text messages, we'll do outbound phone calls, especially as we get further into the storm. And maybe customers have been even longer without power, really making sure they understand, hey, we're in the area, you know, even little things like, "hey, you might see helicopters and drones, that's us doing damage evaluations, it's helping us restore your power". So they know we're there and we're working. Now, sometimes the crises or the event isn't the story. But the ones your customers tell you, how do you get ahead of the story before public opinion shapes it for you. So this goes back exactly to what I said and the absence of information, they make up their own reality. And you do have to get ahead of that. And a lot of that does come from our communications group. With media, we like to have a meteorologist on staff that can actually do live cast and talk about weather talk about what Oncore is doing, how we are preparing, give restoration updates, that has a really good strong following. So you do have to get out there in front of it. You know, you will have those times where things kind of spiral out of control. And in Texas, it's kind of unique, right? Because we're deregulated. So you've got a lot of parties, you know, on the same boat, trying to tell their own story. And so you, you also have to graciously kind of step aside sometimes and let ERCOT or the retailer's communicate with customers as well. So it's a, it's a shared communication space, which contributes to some confusion at times. So we really try to focus on making sure whatever we have to share is relevant to what we're doing. And it's very concise. Now. Okay. Given the wide spectrum of events you deal with, when it comes to power outages, what is the difference for you, between an issue and a crises? How are they defined? And what are the thresholds for Oncore?
Boyd Greene 10:45
With that question, I think I think we deal with issues every single day. That's just our bread and butter outages, right. But an issue can easily turn into a crisis if it's the right customer that's out. So a hospital being out- that can be a crisis. But in terms of storms, right, a crisis we define- there's several different levels. And it depends on what percentage of our customers are out. Does it affect just a district? Or is it an entire region that has problems? Is the- are the outages expected to be restored within less than 24 hours? If so, it's one level, if it's more than 48 hours, it's another level, eventually, we'll get to a point where we have so many customers out, affecting so much so many different regions, parts of regions, and we anticipate that it may be 72 hours or less that we're restoring customers, then we'll open up the SEC or System Emergency Center to provide that assistance.
Amanda Townsend 11:45
And I think to add on to that, you know, I think that the environmental conditions contribute to that too. So you can have a tornado come through and the next day, it's blue sky. Those customers being without power for three or four days is inconvenient, but it's not necessarily a crisis. But if you fast forward, and maybe you're in an ice storm, and you're in sub zero temperatures for three or four days without power, that changes the narrative. Okay, cool. Now, during a major crisis, when restoration times are nearly impossible to estimate, what is involved to maintain positive public sentiment, credibility, and trust?
Boyd Greene 12:25
So I think it's important to get the message out as quickly as possible. And to provide that ERT as quickly as possible, which is difficult in these crisis situations. Say it's a tornado, hurricane, or some other significant event, to get that ERT out there. Because you don't have the damage assessment done as fast as you would like, you may not have the crews available to go do the restoration work. So all of those things, you have to get done. But you've got to get the message out first.
Amanda Townsend 12:58
Yeah, and that's where Boyd and I have to work closely together as well as our colleagues because, you know, my job is to give him a little bit of buffer, they've got to get troubleshooting done, they've got to figure out what all has to happen to restore in a certain area, it can be pulled down, there could be access issues, we run into that quite a bit. Icy roads, we've had trucks sink, you know, we've had alligators. I mean, there's a lot of things you run into. But you do have to take those things in consideration. And so our job is really to work together to provide as much information as we can, especially in that first 24 to 48 hours. And then as we were able to hone in on on a restoration time being able to communicate that.
Dan Seguin 13:44
Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Just how important are ETRs- estimated time restorations? And does their importance depend on if it's an issue or a crises?
Boyd Greene 13:59
So the ETR or the estimated restoration time is important in both situations. Whether it's just an issue or it's a it's a crisis event, the customer needs to know exactly, well not exactly- but they need to know about when they can expect restoration to happen. They have to plan their lives around these events. And when you provide it as best we can, it gets much more difficult in a crisis situation. Because you have to get your damage assessment done first, you've got to get your troubleshooting done. You've got crews to coordinate, and it just gets exponentially much harder to do that in a crisis situation. So our restoration philosophy is and this holds true on a blue sky day. Or we're going to a crisis level event right? So our restoration priorities always get the maximum number of customers on first, which is generally your higher order devices like your feeder breakers. Reclosure. So Wisconsin things with a caveat that we have to keep in mind we have have some critical infrastructure that's that's for safety to the public, maybe it's a hospital, could be a fire station, police station, those kinds of things, we have to build that into the equation. So it's the higher order devices first, keeping in mind just what I said about the other critical customers, and then we'll work our way down, because reality is, our first responders generally average about an hour per event to resolve it, or make a work order on it, right. So if I can have an employee spend one hour on a event as 1000 customers on it, it's much more effective and quicker restoration than it is to put them on an event that has 10 customers. So our customer count drops significantly in those first few hours that way.
Dan Seguin 15:47
Okay. What are your biggest worries about the increase in extreme weather events we are seeing? How are you preparing? How is Oncore preparing?
Boyd Greene 15:59
So yes, it is worse. And I think, given that we're coming out of COVID. My biggest worry for the increased activity is our supply chain. So we're a big utility, we have lots of inventory set aside, we're prepared for just about anything. But if a significant event were hit anywhere in the States, and affect multiple utilities, that supply chain could possibly get disrupted. That's, that's one thing I worry about.
Dan Seguin 16:35
Okay, I want you to finish these sentences here. During a crises never blank.
Boyd Greene 16:43
Panic.
Dan Seguin 16:44
Okay. Why do you said that? And can you provide me with an example?
Boyd Greene 16:49
So, yes, so I've done this for quite a while. I've seen different folks in different roles. And those who panic are never effective at developing a good plan. And so it's hard not to get into panic mode, because things are happening so fast. But you have to remain calm. Trust your plan and build your plan around your folks.
Dan Seguin 17:14
Okay, next one, during a crises always blank.
Amanda Townsend 17:19
Think big.
Dan Seguin 17:21
Okay, now maybe expand? Why? Or can you provide me with an example?
Amanda Townsend 17:27
If you start getting too granular, you're not going to solve the big problem. And you're also going to stop working and communicating cross functionally.
Dan Seguin 17:37
Okay, wondering if you could unpack how you respond to large scale emergencies and disasters that exceed your capability to effectively respond and recover?
Boyd Greene 17:51
So our our system covers over 54,000 square miles. So the odds of any single event affecting our our whole service territorie is small. So, because we're so large, the areas that aren't impacted, we can move those resources into the area that is, so that that does help us. And so our territory, just for your listeners goes from the New Mexico border to the Louisiana border up to Oklahoma, and down to Central Texas. So it's pretty large. When, when the events exceed what we can do with that, then we'll call in mutual assistance, folks will have electric companies from other states come in, we'll call contractors from other states to come in. And so we've got a pretty robust system set up for that. And calls go out pretty quick, when we need them.
Amanda Townsend 18:47
And for customer communications, we also have our own search capabilities, where our contacts and our we can double our workforce within 24 hours. I also have internal resources that we tap into, you know, we've obviously encountered our fair share of large scale events. And, and winter storm Uri, we took more phone calls and one day than we did an entire year. And we also went from, you know, a norm of you know, 17 or 18,000 social media cases that you need to work per year to at our peak 35,000 an hour. And that's really where you have to, you can search but you can only search so far. And that's really where focusing on your digital communication platforms and focusing on those things like your store map, and really trying to get information out into the hands of the people is really critical. We're just about done here. When it comes to crises, what's the best advice you have ever received? And what's the best advice you've ever given?
Boyd Greene 19:58
So received was delegate. Good example. It wasn't long before I started working storms and really managing storms. My director kept asking me for information about every hour, same information. And after about the fourth or fifth time of asking me that, he pulled me aside. So we're walking back to a conference room so he can have a talk with me. And I know he was upset that I didn't get him the information, right. So as you're walking to the conference room, in my mind, I prepared my response. I'm busy, I've got this, all these other things are happening. And he said, You know, I've been watching you, you don't have the information that I needed, I had to go get it from somebody else. But you don't have it, because you're doing all your people's work. Let them do their jobs. Don't micromanage it, just follow up on. So you have to delegate to get things done.
Amanda Townsend 21:00
So I would say the best advice that I ever received is it's not about you. This is not your time to step up and try to be you know, the who's who of of the storm, you have a job to do and get it done. Work cross functionally support one another. And at the end of the day, it's all going to be okay.
Boyd Greene 21:22
And I think what you just said, is probably the best advice I've given to somebody. Stay calm. If you have to go to the room over there, turn your phone off and sit 15 minutes in the dark, but remain calm.
Dan Seguin 21:38
Well, Boyd, and Amanda, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Reaching Canada’s net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada’s electricity sector in order to hit the country’s net zero goals.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. According to the Canadian Climate Institute, the country's leading climate change policy research organization, all roads to net zero pass through electricity. I know we've mentioned this many times on the show, but it bears repeating how Canada produces some of the cleanest electricity in the world. 80% of the electricity generated across Canada comes from sources completely free of greenhouse gas emissions in Ontario's electricity sector is one of the cleanest producing 94% of its electricity from non emitting sources. So there's still work to be done to make Canada's electricity sector even cleaner. But in essence, the electricity sector isn't the problem when it comes to climate change. But according to the Canadian Climate Institute's recent report called The Big Switch, it is the solution. So what does contribute to Canada's emissions, refined petroleum, primarily used for transportation, natural gas, which is used primarily to heat our homes and buildings and the energy processes involved in industries particularly steel, cement, and chemical industries. According to the big switch report, our country needs to reduce its reliance on these fossil fuels, if we hope to achieve Canada's Net Zero targets by 2050. But that's only a piece of the national puzzle. The big switch report suggests that we must double or even triple the amount of zero emissions electricity that we currently produce to meet future demand for widespread electrification. The Canadian Climate Institute highlights three critical changes to Canada's electricity sector, make it bigger, cleaner, and smarter. So here's today's big question. What are the key ways that Canada's electricity system can evolve and improve in order to replace fossil fuels and better align with net zero targets? We're going to dig into all of that on today's show. Established by Environment and Climate Change Canada, the Canadian Climate Institute provides independent and expert driven analysis to help Canada move toward clean growth in all sectors and regions of the country. Today, our guest is Caroline Lee, Senior Research Associate at the Canadian Climate Institute. Caroline holds a Master's Degree in Resource Management from Simon Fraser University and has previously held positions with International Energy Agency, the government in New Brunswick and Navius Research. Caroline, welcome to the show. Now, the Big Switch summary report is based on two other detailed reports, bigger, cleaner, smarter, and electric federalism, which we're going to discuss on the show today. But in essence, what is the premise behind your report the big switch? What are you referring to? And what does the report aimed to outline or chief?
Caroline Lee 03:57
Well, in simple terms, you know, we call this report the Big Switch, because we wanted to refer to this switch away from using fossil fuel energy, which as we know, generates greenhouse gas emissions towards using clean electricity. So the technical term for this is electrification. And this Big Switch is really important we saw because it really underpins the reductions of emissions, really across Canada's economy, and ultimately, it underpins Canada's achievement of our climate goals. So that's really why we undertook this project because we saw the importance of moving towards electricity in meeting Canada's climate goals as so central. And we wanted to understand what needs to happen at the system's level to support those changes. So when I say systems, I'm talking about the supply, the transmission, the distribution, how do those systems need to be changing, so that they can be equipped to support the shift towards electricity as we use more EVs as we use more heat pumps and so on.
Dan Seguin 04:59
Here's a follow up question for you, Caroline. Your report references unabated fossil fuels, wondering if you could explain and elaborate.
Caroline Lee 05:07
Yeah, it is a technical term. So unabated simply means that it's not equipped with technology to reduce the associated emissions. So for us that technology is carbon capture, utilization and storage, the technical acronym is CCUS. So there are ways for example, to continue burning fossil fuels, while reducing significantly the emissions associated with them if we equip that type of generation with CCUS. But what we see in our analysis is that if you're not equipping fossil fuels with CCUS, ultimately, the fate of unabated fossil fuels is very clear that significant generation associated with unabated fossil fuels, fossil fuels that don't have CCS equipped is going to have to be largely phased out. So when we looked at all of the analysis, all the studies that model netzero transitions in electricity, what we found is that at most 1%, of all generation by 2050, is associated with unabated fossil fuels. So we have to largely phase out that kind of electricity generation.
Dan Seguin 06:17
That's very interesting. Now, Caroline, what do you mean, when you say that all roads to net zero passes through electricity? Why does electricity play a central role?
Caroline Lee 06:30
It's a good question. And it's a good basic question that I'm very happy to answer. So maybe I can start with this first. First explanation around what the net zero goal actually means, you know, Canada, just recently committed to achieving net zero emissions by 2050. And this is an ambitious goal. And what that means is that Canada, has agreed to really zero out our emissions to get our emissions as close as we can to zero. And then whatever emissions are very expensive, or technically very difficult to get out of the economy, then we offset in some way. So again, this is an ambitious goal, there's a lot that needs to be done, especially in electricity to support that goal. And the reason why we say all roads to netzero pass through electricity is that when we looked at all the studies that model, a trajectory for Canada reaching net zero, there really was no credible path, without this switch towards electricity. And without making the generation of electricity cleaner. So we really saw tackling electricity as being critical to the achievement of Canada's net zero goals. And maybe I can just say it and in simple terms, three key reasons why that switch is so important. So first of all, electricity itself it when you use it, it doesn't burn fossil fuel, of course, so therefore, it doesn't release greenhouse gas emission. So we all know that if you're driving an Eevee, you're not generating greenhouse gas emissions directly. Now, of course, we know also that the production of electricity can generate emissions. So we can use fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to generate electricity. So that's where you can get some emissions. But what's really positive news in Canada and really around the world is that we're making quite significant progress, especially here in Canada, to reducing those emissions associated with producing electricity. And now that the federal government has a commitment to achieve net zero electricity by 2035, the country now has a clear mandate that we're going to be eliminating, by and large those emissions associated with producing electricity. So that's a really big thing is that electricity in the future could really be this conduit for using fully non emitting electricity from the beginning to the end. And then a third reason why electricity is so important is that it's just more efficient. So driving an electric vehicle is actually three to four times more efficient than using fossil fuels to drive that vehicle. And that's because you lose so much more heat. There's a lot of energy that's wasted when you're combusting fossil fuels. So because of those three reasons, electricity does seem to play a really critical role in achieving our climate goals.
Dan Seguin 09:29
Now, I've got a follow up question again. Your report also refers to electricity systems plural. Was that intentional, and what are you capturing?
Caroline Lee 09:42
It was indeed intentional. And that's because we recognize that Canada doesn't actually have a national electricity grid. We have a whole bunch of provincial regional grids and that's in large part because electricity is managed by provinces and territories. It's not directly managed by the federal government. So we wanted to to recognize the kind of regional uniqueness of all of these systems and that there isn't a single kind of unified grid across the country.
Dan Seguin 10:12
So we're really talking about transforming Canada's electricity system, and how every Canadian will use energy in the future. What is Canada doing right now right now that you feel makes this achievable?
Caroline Lee 10:28
Well, I can talk about a couple of things. One thing on the demand side, so in terms of how we're using electricity, and then another thing on the supply side, so how we're generating electricity. Now in terms of how we're using electricity, we're seeing quite favorable policies now to support the use of more electricity using technologies things like EVs. We've seen now the ban of the sale of internal combustion engines, within just about a decade, in Canada. So this is going to really accelerate I think, the shift towards electric vehicles in Canada in at least passenger vehicle fleets. So that's really promising. There are lots of other things we need to be doing in terms of driving electrification in other types of uses. So not only in cars, but for example, in how we heat our homes, in industrial processes. So there's more work to be done there. But the progress on electric vehicles I think is promising on the supply side, so how we're generating electricity. Canada has now as I said earlier, committed to achieving net zero electricity by 2035. So that's just over one decade, we've committed to having basically clean electricity across the board across the country. And that is quite an ambitious target. And it aligns with a lot of these scenarios that we looked at, for achieving broader net zero goals across Canada. So government policy actually seems in that regard to be following what's actually necessary to get us to net zero in electricity.
Dan Seguin 12:06
The report says that the switch is going to make Canadians better off. Can you expand on that? And also, how inequity could be addressed?
Caroline Lee 12:18
There are so many ways that I can answer this question, I think, from one dimension, we can think about the move towards electricity, this Big Switch, as making energy more affordable for Canadians. So our analysis actually found that overall, as a share of income, energy costs will actually decline as a result of using more electricity. And that's in part because electricity is more efficient, we're also seeing so therefore, the the operating cost over the entire lifetime, for example of an EV is going to be lower than the lifetime cost of owning an internal combustion engine, a gasoline vehicle. And we see the initial costs of these technologies also going down over time. So we know even you know, you probably know this quite well, the cost of buying an Eevee, even five years ago was significantly higher than it is today. And we expect those costs to continue to drop. And so this big switch can actually make energy overall more affordable for Canadians. And that's good news for everybody, I would say. But beyond the costs themselves to individual consumers, we see also quite significant opportunities for economic development. So one example here is that as Canada develops more clean electricity supplies, so we're we're producing electricity in cleaner ways. That gives us the opportunity to supply that clean energy to industries that traditionally use quite a lot of electricity, we think of for example, steelmaking that can increase their carbon competitiveness where consumers are increasingly thinking, okay, I want to I prefer to purchase steel, from a steel company that has a lower carbon footprint than a higher carbon footprint steel company. So using clean electricity in Canada to produce some of our industrial goods can actually give us a competitive leg up internationally. So there are some real carbon competitiveness benefits that we see. And then, thirdly, in terms of opportunities for Indigenous Reconciliation, I mean, this speaks to your question around equity. We know that Indigenous Peoples are in many ways marginalized because of historic racism, oppression, by non settler Canadians, we know that. So one way in which we think this big switch can help with the reconciliation and self determination of Indigenous Peoples is by allowing we know this already, actually, that Indigenous Peoples are already owners and co-owners of a lot of clean energy projects and we only see that trend increasing. So that allows them to be very much a part of this transition, take advantage of the economic opportunities, and also determine their own paths in terms of how they want to pursue this. This next wave of, of energy transition.
Dan Seguin 15:16
Thanks, Caroline. There was a reference to defraying the cost of electricity system investments away from customers by using public funds. Can you explain a bit about that? And why that would be favorable?
Caroline Lee 15:31
Yeah, I think this is worth digging into a little bit. So currently, the costs of generating electricity are paid for by the ratepayers. So whoever uses electricity pays for those investments, at least indirectly. What we're proposing in our report is that it's not only the rate base of the people that are using electricity, that help share the cost of electricity system investments, but that those costs get shared more broadly to taxpayers at large. And the reason why we think that could be really critical is that I'll just say three reasons here. First of all, the benefits of electricity systems investments are actually shared more broadly than across ratepayers. And that's because electricity, as I said earlier, is so essential for Canada to meet its climate change net zero targets, that the benefits are shared more widely, as well. So if the benefits are shared widely, we think there's justification for having the cost shared more widely as well. We also think of electricity really, as something like, you know, it's critical infrastructure in this day and age, you can think of it like hospitals, we need electricity, to run our lives and to, and to support Canadians day to day. And because we see electricity as such critical infrastructure, we see also that there's justification to support the maintenance and the in the kind of enhancement of that infrastructure through the tax base. And then last reason is a little bit more wonky. But when we defray these costs of the electricity systems investments through taxes, instead of the rate payer base, that can be a more progressive way of distributing that costs. And by progressive, what I mean is that it doesn't hit low income households as much as it does when you distribute those costs through rates. So overall, I think there, we think there is justification for having those costs spread out more evenly across society at large and Canada.
Dan Seguin 17:40
Now, let's move to the next big report. Bigger, cleaner, smarter pathways. Now, Caroline, I really want to tackle your report, word by word. Let's start with the word bigger. What does your evidence and research say about meeting future demand due to widespread electrification? And when you say big, how big are we talking about?
Caroline Lee 18:10
The first report is titled bigger, cleaner and smarter. And that summarizes the three critical ways in which we see electricity systems having to change and transform in order to support net zero. So in terms of that first change bigger. Yes, we see electricity systems having to grow because there is going to be increasing demand for electricity as we move into net zero world as we use more EVs, more heat pumps, and so on. And so we expect that demand when we look across all the studies that try to project how much electricity is needed, what we see is that anywhere between 1.6 to 2.1 times more demand is going to be required by 2050 compared to today. So you can think of it as an about a doubling of electricity demand by 2050, compared to today, and what that means in terms of the capacity of the electricity system. So in essence, the physical infrastructure, the size of the system that's required to produce that amount of energy that has to grow even more. So we're seeing installed capacity of electricity, more than doubling if not more than tripling by 2050 compared to today.
Dan Seguin 19:24
Okay, so let's talk about 2050. Are we on track to meet? How can we accelerate to meet the goal?
Caroline Lee 19:33
In short, I don't believe we are on track today. One stat that we have from our analysis is that if we want to be meeting these capacity needs these supply needs for 2050. Canada broadly has to be building capacity three to six times faster to 2050 than it has in the last decade. So the pace that we've been building capacity is not is falling short of the pace that's required to support all of this electrification. What do we do to get there? I mean, there are lots of things we've identified really a range of barriers that are preventing us from building clean energy at the pace that we need. There are barriers in terms of local opposition. I think sometimes community members don't feel like they're, they're consulted enough. And they don't feel like they're a part of the project approval processes. So community members can oppose local projects. We're seeing supply chain blitz right now. I mean, that is one reason why we're seeing higher renewable energy prices, because the markets are having trouble kind of keeping up with the demand for clean energy projects. So there are an array of barriers that we had identified, that we think need to be addressed in order to pick up the pace on increasing clean energy supply.
Dan Seguin 20:54
Moving on to the next word cleaner. Okay, where will the majority of cleaner electricity capacity come? Your report actually says solar wind storage, what's involved in growing these cleaner electricity sources and phasing out those that are polluting or emitting greenhouse gases.
Caroline Lee 21:16
So maybe I can divide my answer in two in terms of what's involved in growing that cleaner component, and then what's involved in phasing out the polluting sources. In terms of the clean energy sources, the sources that we saw that grew by far the fastest in any net zero scenario, as you say, We're solar and wind, if you add storage into the mix, those comprise really the majority of all new capacity that has to be built in Canada. So what we saw is that in the next decade, so from now to 2030, anywhere between 63 and 96% of capacity that's added to Canadian grids has to be from those sources in order to be compatible with net zero. So generally, whatever we're putting onto the grids, it should be wind, solar, or storage, to support netzero goals. Now, there are lots of things that stand in the way as I said in my previous answer to this rapid building, and deployment of clean energy projects. So there are lots of things that we need to be doing from a technical perspective. But also from a social and institutional perspective. I think bringing people on board, making sure the markets that are in the systems that our electricity systems operate in, are aligned with those broader netzero goals. tackling some of these really sticky challenges around enhancing the integration of grids across regions, all of these things are going to have to be tackled in order to build solar and wind in particular, as quickly as we need to know in terms of your the second component of phasing out polluting sources, the federal government already has policy in place to phase out unabated coal generation, so coal generation that's not equipped with CCUS. But the next frontier now is tackling natural gas and natural gas is a fossil fuel, it burns cleaner than coal. But currently, we don't have at least a policy that's been implemented to address natural gas that's consistent with net zero. So the federal government has now committed to what's called a clean electricity standard. They've committed to finding a way to develop a policy, essentially to meet that 2035 netzero electricity goal. We'll see how the details of that are rolled out. But it's promising that that policy is already in development. So I'm actually seeing quite a lot of progress on that front in terms of phasing out polluting sources. And I think so long as the federal government policy is robust and applies, really across the country, I think we should be in good standing to meet the target of phasing out polluting sources.
Dan Seguin 24:13
Okay. Now, what about our existing renewable energy sources like hydro, and nuclear? Will they still be vital and play a major role? What's the plan or recommendations for them?
Caroline Lee 24:28
It's a great question. I mean, oftentimes, the story is about solar and wind. And we forget about Canada's strong existing base of non emitting power, which is hydro and nuclear. And so I would say that in terms of getting cleaner, we talked about growing clean energy, we talked about phasing out polluting sources, but there's a third element that's really critical, which is maintaining what we already have that's working quite well. So the studies that we looked at for the most part, they still see large hydro and large nuclear are playing a strong, continuing strong role in Canada's netzero future. There are some studies that want to test what happens if we phase those out. What happens if we let you know at the end of their useful life, we fail to refurbish them. In most cases, what that means is you have to simply rely even more on other non emitting sources like solar and wind to grow even faster. So it puts the pressure on other sources to grow even faster. So that's, of course, a decision that has to be made by Canadians by decision makers, what is the energy future that we want? But again, if we allow our strong base of hydro nuclear to decline, then we need to be really accelerating the deployment of other types of energy.
Dan Seguin 25:47
Now, how about we address the next word- smarter? What is the smartest way to make our electricity system more flexible and supportive of variable supply from renewable sources? Can you maybe talk more about what it means to make electricity systems smarter?
Caroline Lee 26:10
By a smarter what we actually mean is more flexible. So that's what you alluded to in your question. And there isn't a single way to enhance flexibility. I think that's actually the good news story. First of all, why don't I take this take a step back to say that flexibility is so important, it's not something that we talk about a lot, but it's going to become increasingly important as we move to integrate more shares of solar and wind onto our grids. Solar and wind, as we know, produce electricity in more variable and more intermittent ways. So flexibility in electricity system is something that can help accommodate higher shares of solar and wind onto our grid. So that's important for that reason, flexibility is also really important because we're also seeing, say increased demand for electricity and changing load patterns as a result of more EV uptake. If everybody comes home and charges their EVs at the same time, that's going to change the level and the timing of electricity demand. So the ability for the system to respond to those is also really useful. And let me just say a last reason why flexibility is so important is to respond to disruptions due to extreme weather events. I think we know this extremely well here in in Ottawa, I bet you know this better than most people, the cost, and the losses that can be associated with extreme weather events, and, and the and the terrible implications, essentially, of extreme weather on electricity systems. So flexibility is another thing that can help us better respond to those things. So broadly, we see kind of four groups of measures that can help us build more flexibility into our electricity systems. And the good news is, is that different regions are going to be relying on different types of measures. And there's no single bullet that there's really a toolkit, there's an array of measures that different regions can draw on. So things like for example, on the supply side, using more dispatchable types of generation generation that can be called upon on demand to generate like hydro, like natural gas with CCS. Also, things like enhancing the integration of grids across regions, those types of things help different provinces and territories better share resources across borders, things like hydropower, that can be really valuable in helping to balance variable sources like solar and wind, a third set of measures around storage, deploying storage, including short term storage, but more emerging long term storage solutions as well. And then a last basket of measures around making demand itself more flexible. So traditionally, we have seen demand is being fixed, you know, you consume demand when you consume it. But now we're seeing all kinds of possibilities, for example, to shift demand to times when it makes more sense. So for example, to defer the charging of EVs to the middle of the night when it puts puts less stress on the system.
Dan Seguin 29:19
You've just provided me with a great segue. Given climate change and extreme weather events becoming more commonplace, what does boosting resiliency of our electricity system look like for the future?
Caroline Lee 29:33
I think resiliency is only going to become more of a priority not only in electricity systems, but broader energy systems as we see the growing incidence and magnitude of extreme weather events. So you're exactly right that this is this is a an important thing to talk about. I think traditionally when we think about building resilience in our electricity systems, we think about hardening infrastructure. So we think about measures to Do, for example, strengthen transmission and distribution lines or maybe even underground lines and poles, to withstand extreme weather to avoid those things. But what I would say is that while those buckets have met that bucket of measures is really important. The concept of resilience is broader than that. So it's not only about avoiding or withstanding extreme weather events, for instance. But it's also to the extent that we can minimize our exposure to them, but also accepting that there will be inevitably, some disruptions along the way that we can't 100% avoid them, and then shifting also to learning how to manage them, and then recover very quickly from them. So they're not as disruptive. So from that perspective, and in addition to hardening infrastructure, I think we also need to be prioritizing emergency response and recovery. So thinking about as soon as we see some anticipate a disruption, how do we respond really quickly? And how do we make sure that we're deploying, that we have the resources to deploy emergency response when those things happen. And then, another thing I would highlight is that whole bucket of measures around flexibility that I was talking about. So flexibility is really great, because it helps us achieve our climate goals. It helps us accommodate more solar and wind onto our grids. But it also helps us better respond to extreme weather events. So there's an adaptation a climate change, adaptation benefit, too. And so flexibility, for example, you know, you think about storage, if you have a solar panel, and a battery in your house, that is good for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because solar panels are a clean source of energy. But also that storage can be really beneficial as a backup source of energy when your lights go out. So you can kind of think of some of these flexibility measures as killing two birds with one stone where there's a emissions reductions benefit as well as a resilience benefit.
Dan Seguin 32:00
Okay, now, it's time to move to the next report, the Electric Federalism, that's a policy report. Now, Caroline, one of the key takeaways from your bigger cleaner, smarter report, is that in order to successfully align Canada's electricity system for net zero, both orders of government must drive change through policy. This brings us to the next report, electric federalism, what is Electric Federalism? And why is it so important?
Caroline Lee 32:34
Great question. So we think of this report as the, the how report and the first report as the what so bigger, cleaner, smarter is like what needs to happen from a technical perspective and electricity system. And electric federalism is well, how do we accelerate and support those changes? So electric federalism is this concept? Based on the fact that yes, we all we live in Canada, Canada is a decentralized Federation, which means that, as I was saying earlier, provinces and territories carry significant power and jurisdiction over many issues, including energy and electricity. So the federal government, of course, has has some power to drive, electricity systems transformation, but a lot of those levers, a lot of those policy levers actually reside within provinces and territories. So electric federalism is a way of moving forward on transforming electricity within this context, where we see multiple orders of government having complementary roles to play, we're trying to figure out how can those different orders of government work together? How can we make the most of the respective policy levers that the different orders carry?
Dan Seguin 33:44
Something fascinating in the report, is the call for greater inter regional coordination, and the integration of Canada's provincial and territorial electricity systems. Those of us in the electricity industry know that there are a lot of regulatory roadblocks, but also that folks are very territorial about their electricity system. Can you walk our listeners through the vision? And what would be required for this to become a reality?
Caroline Lee 34:20
You know, you are so right in recognizing the long entrenched barriers that exist to enhancing the integration of grids across our regions. The current state of electricity systems, as I was saying earlier, is that we really operate mostly in siloed systems. There's a little bit of trade between provinces and territories, but it's actually quite modest, even especially in relation to the trade that we have with the US. So we can think of, of Canada's electricity system as largely balkanized and siloed right now, and the reason why we wanted to really tackle this issue is that we've always known the benefits of integrating with neighboring regions. But now that we have this net zero goal, this climate change agenda that's so much more ambitious than it was before the benefits of integration have increased. So significantly. So the barriers that we identified to, for example, enhancing inter ties between Ontario and Quebec, we've got a long laundry list of what's preventing that from happening. Things like even self sufficiency, mandates from utilities, utilities, in some cases are mandated to have enough electricity within their borders to take care of themselves to be completely self sufficient. And so having too much trade or too much integration with neighboring regions would actually be going directly against that mandate. So there are some formal barriers like that. But then exactly as you touched on, there are all kinds of informal barrier. So political, social barriers, we don't really consider as electricity in the same way as other goods that can be easily traded across borders, I mean, electricity is often thought of as something that that is closely ident, closely connected to a provinces identity. So we have a harder time, I think, thinking about the trade of electricity. And then a last barrier I would mention is that because Canada's systems are so balkanized. Even market barriers and institutional barriers can be really important. So the fact that for instance, in BC, there's one type of electricity system, right next to it, Alberta has a very different type of electricity market. The the misalignment between how different provinces manage and regulate electricity can also be a barrier. So what we're saying is that we have our eyes wide open in terms of a realistic goal on enhancing integration. It's not about instantaneous integration, and a national grid tomorrow, we think that is not realistic and pragmatic. But what we do think is that there are ways of kind of testing and advancing integration and incremental ways across willing regional partners. And I would highlight in this circumstance, the Atlantic provinces, who are now pursuing this project of the Atlantic loop, they're thinking about integrating all of themselves better with Quebec, to better exploit, essentially, Quebec hydropower. So those regions that region rather those provinces have said, we are interested in taking those steps forward, there might be other provinces that are different stages of readiness. So we recognize it is ultimately up to provinces to decide yes, I want to pursue more integration or not. We think there's a few things that provinces can do, though, we think there's a lot more work that can be done to simply quantify those benefits of integration. So in an integrated resource plan, so when an electricity utility is planning for the next few years of how it's going to meet demand, having knowing how much the benefit of integration would be, and if they decide not to pursue it, having a justification for why they left that off the table, I think could be really important. Even things like collaborating on the development of those integrated resource plans with neighboring jurisdictions, not doing them formally, necessarily together. But having a little bit more consultation with neighbors can be really important. Things like sharing reserved margins across borders, those kinds of things, province provinces can do together. But then I will also mention the federal government is not without power here, the federal government has significant spending powers, they have significant convening powers. So the federal government can use the financial spending power that it has to support, even the building of transmission infrastructure between provinces. In terms of convening, the federal government has recently announced this Grid Council in its last climate plan, to be able to pursue more integration across different provinces so they can bring people together, they can bring provinces together, share best practices help organize some of these integration projects.
Dan Seguin 39:33
That's great insight, Caroline, let's continue. In the Electric Federalism Report, it's recommended that the Federal Government work with provinces and territories to negotiate climate policies and electricity agreement. Has this been done before? And what are some of the advantages for Canadians with this approach? It's probably similar to health care and the recent childcare agreement that The Federal Government just introduced with the provinces.
Caroline Lee 40:03
So this idea is really trying to, as I was saying earlier, to leverage the respective powers and policy levers of different orders of government. So it's possible that we can transform electricity systems with the federal government moving in its direction with provinces and territories moving in their own direction, that's possible. But we think that we have a greater chance of success when people work together when different orders of government collaborate and coordinate. So that's why we have this proposal of the federal government essentially tying financial support to the fulfillment of high level conditions on the part of the provincial governments. So for example, I'll give you some examples of what we think those conditions could be. So we would ask, for example, that provinces could change the mandates of key institutions in their electricity systems to align with net zero. Currently, utilities, for instance, are pursuing climate change goals, but it's not necessarily explicitly in their mandate to make investments that are consistent with net zero. So making and formalizing the netzero mandate, we think could be really important. The federal government could also ask provinces and territories to develop comprehensive energy plans. So thinking about what is the future for electrification in that province? How might we meet that demand? What is the future for integration, thinking about energy in a more holistic way across different energy sources could provide some more consistency and more foresight, essentially, for utilities as they make investments and make decisions towards net zero. And then thirdly, the federal government can ask provinces to participate in working groups essentially like to propose grid council. So the idea of this of this proposal is not to be too prescriptive in terms of the federal government requiring provinces to do XYZ. implement policies that look like this, this this, but rather simply fulfill these high level principles, fulfill them in a way that they see fit based on their provincial circumstances. And that way that would give greater assurance that we would all provinces and territories and the federal government together would be moving in the same direction towards net zero. And so as you said in your question, we've already done similar negotiating systems like this on health care, recent childcare agreements, essentially, the federal government has said, we will provide financial report, financial support, rather to provinces, if you fulfill these certain high level principles, so we're proposing a similar thing with regards to electricity.
Dan Seguin 42:49
Now, Caroline, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?
Caroline Lee 42:58
I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 43:00
What are you reading right now?
Caroline Lee 43:02
It's a book called Crying in the H Mart. It's it's written by a, an American Korean pop star, and she writes about her mom struggle with cancer. So it's, it's really good so far.
Dan Seguin 43:16
Cool. Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one?
Caroline Lee 43:22
The Sweet Caroline?
Dan Seguin 43:23
Now a simple question here, Caroline. Who is someone that you really admire?
Caroline Lee 43:30
I admire my parents,
Dan Seguin 43:32
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Caroline Lee 43:37
This is so cheesy, but the birth of my two children is, is the most miraculous thing I've ever witnessed.
Dan Seguin 43:44
The next one- what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Caroline Lee 43:51
I think the social isolation has been particularly challenging, I think, not only for me, but for lots of people.
Dan Seguin 43:58
Okay, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What is your favorite show or movie? And why?
Caroline Lee 44:07
I think one show that I found that helped kind of buoy my mood was Ted Lasso. So I don't know if you've watched this show. But the positivity of the show, I really especially valued I think, during the pandemic.
Dan Seguin 44:21
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now,
Caroline Lee 44:27
I think in climate policy, in the climate policy world, it's so easy to feel depressed about our prospects for succeeding in tackling this most this huge climate challenge. But I think on the positive side, we're seeing progress, like we've never seen in history of Canada or really in the world. In terms of energy transition in terms of policy implementation. We're seeing renewable energy growing faster than we've ever seen it grow and we expect it to grow even faster. We're seeing the phase out of polluting fossil fuels faster than we've ever seen. So I think there's no question a long way to go in terms of meeting our climate targets. But the progress I think that we're seeing in energy transitions is a reason for hope.
Dan Seguin 45:14
Well, Caroline, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect? How can they learn more,
Caroline Lee 45:26
Feel free to reach out to me directly. My email is clee, C L E E@climateinstitute.ca. And you can go to our website directly climateinstitute.ca To learn more about us and get more contact information.
Dan Seguin 45:41
Again, Caroline, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Caroline Lee 45:46
It was great. Thanks so much for the invite.
Dan Seguin 45:49
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
While the rate of electrical fatalities is trending downwards, electrical injuries as a whole are not as rare as we’d hope. From the underground electrical economy to DIYers taking on home renovations, electrical safety accidents have increased over the last two years. Josie Erzetic, President and CEO of the Electrical Safety Authority, told us how her organization is working to combat these issues and protect consumers from dangerous acts. Listen to our chat during this thinkenergy Summer Recharge.
Do you work in a construction related industry? Call or email (ESA.communications@esasafe.com) the ESA to learn about their spring startup sessions. They are happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact.
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Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around green innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15th to kick off another exciting season. Cheers.
Dan Seguin 00:50
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. And in today's episode, we'll be talking about safety in this increasingly, electric world. I'm dancing.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:02
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz.
Dan Seguin 01:04
Electricity is everywhere. It has become a necessary part of our lives powering the way we live, work and play. Rebecca, how much of a headache is it when the power goes out?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:19
Hmm, it's a huge headache, Dan. And let me tell you, as a social media coordinator, I know firsthand that our customers feel the pain.
Dan Seguin 01:28
Yep, I'm the same way when the power goes out, we notice but apart from those moments, it's easy to take for granted. Likewise, with it being such a critical resource that already has many safeguards in place, it's easy to forget just how dangerous it is
Rebecca Schwartz 01:45
so true. And well, most of us have likely experienced an electric shock of some kind. Hopefully, for most people, just a small Static Shock, you know, from walking across your carpet with socks on and touching the closest victim in proximity to you. But I digress. static shocks like these are of little consequence. However, when it comes to the electric current running through our homes, businesses and communities via wires and powerlines incidents involving electric shock are anything but amusing.
Dan Seguin 02:15
Unfortunately, the sobering reality is that electrical injuries are not as rare as you and I or the Electrical Safety Authority would like. According to the Ontario electrical safety report, there have been a 135 electrical related fatalities in the past 10 years. 52 of those deaths were a result of electrocution, or the effects of an electrical burn, and 83 were a result of electrical fires. The silver lining is that the rate of electrical fatalities is actually trending down. fatalities have dropped 13% Compared to the previous 10 year period.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:59
And the organization behind this downwards trend is the Electrical Safety Authority. They serve to regulate and promote electrical safety in Ontario, improve safety for the well being of all Ontarians and ultimately to reduce electrical injuries and fatalities to zero.
Dan Seguin 03:16
So Rebecca, here's today's big question. How has the electrical safety authorities strategically evolved, its approach to safety in this modern and increasingly electric world? Special guest, Josie Erzetic, Chief regulatory officer and General Counsel for the Electrical Safety Authority is here with us today to help ground us with a greater understanding of the dangers behind electricity, and how we can protect ourselves, our loved ones, and our colleagues from injury. Hey Josie, Welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us more about your organization, your role as a regulator, and what fuels your passion for working there?
Josie Erzetic 04:12
Thanks so much, Daniel. I'm really happy to be on the show. So Thanks for inviting me. I guess what I'd start off with is just talking about ESA's mission, and that is to promote electrical safety across Ontario. So in fact, our vision is an Ontario where people can live work and play safe from electrical harm. So we're talking about electrical safety at home, as well as in the workplace. So how do you do that? We basically have carriage four regulations in the province. So the first one being the one people probably associate most which with us, which is the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. The second one is that we license all of the LEC's and ME's, that's master electricians and licensed electrical contractors in the province. Thirdly, we regulate electrical product safety. And finally, we regulate the safety of all licensed distribution companies in the province. And that would be, for example, Ottawa Hydro. So we regulate safety in that regard as well. And we're constantly just scanning the market for new areas that we perceive present an electrical safety risk to consumers to Ontarians. And we promote education, electrical safety education. So what what fuels my passion you asked? It's basically that safety and consumer protection mandate, I find it very, very meaningful work to do this. So that's what gets me up in the mornings. And I'm really fortunate to just work with a really, really great group of people.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:01
with safety and risk mitigation top of mind how the accidents increased or decreased in the last five to 10 years. And how do you measure this?
Josie Erzetic 06:10
it's a really good question. And I'm very happy to report that over the last 10 years, overall, the state of electrical safety in Ontario has improved. There's been a 42% reduction in critical injuries that result as a result of electrical incidents, and there's been a 30% reduction in electrical fires. Overall, as well over the past decade, there's been an 11% decrease in electrical related fatalities. When it comes to power lines, specifically, there has been an 8% decrease in the last 10 years in power line related fatalities. So how do we know this? we track all the data. So we look very carefully at electrical fatalities, as well as critical injuries. And we really sort of hone in on where they're coming from. So I'll give you an example. For example, dump truck drivers a number of years ago, we recognized that there were a lot of electrical contact with power lines as the result of dump truck drivers keeping the box on their truck in an elevated position. So as a result of that we really focused in on that problem and started to do a lot of work with that industry. So what did we do? we created a whole campaign around, look up, look out. So we posted these types of signs all around construction areas, we posted power line safety posters. We delivered safety talks to industry associations to students to construction workers. And we worked in partnership with the IHSA, which is the infrastructure Health and Safety Association. And we also translated some of our safety materials into other languages, including French, Portuguese, Punjabi, to make sure that people understood the message. And as a result of it, what's happened is that the number of powerline contacts from that industry has decreased by 28%, when you compare five year periods. So having said all that, there's still a lot of work to be done. And we're again tracking data to look at where we might see other risk areas so that we can really focus in on those.
Dan Seguin 08:53
Now let's move on from data to reports. I know you recently released an annual safety report. What is that telling you?
Josie Erzetic 09:01
So our annual safety report is called the Ontario electrical safety report or OESR. It's the only document of this kind in Canada. And what it really does is help us identify emerging risk areas. So this this last month, we released our 20th edition. And what it's telling us on the homeowner side certainly is we've seen an increase in power line contacts reported from the public. So this is not what I was referring to earlier in terms of fatalities per se, but it's just an increase in the numbers of contacts, which of course could lead to serious injury or fatality, so we want to really think about data like this and try to send our safety message to the public. So where are we seeing contact? we're seeing it in areas like tree trimming or cutting. We're seeing it in things like kite flying or home improvement. work. For example, if you think about it, you're working around your home, you're moving around a ladder, let's say, to clean your eavestroughs, anything like that. And we're potentially seeing power line contact as a result, yard renovations. So we noticed that, especially during this pandemic period, where people are doing a lot of their own renovation work, there's a potential there for power line contact. So what we've done is we're shifting a lot of our campaigns online, and we're sending out messages like stop, look and live, we find that people are going online, when they're thinking about doing renovations when they're hiring contractors to help with some of those renovations. So we want to send out those messages that make sure you're aware of powerlines, you're aware of what you're doing, and that you stay far enough away. Another example is pools and pool clearances or hot tubs. So in that sense, we've sent out messages saying make sure you keep yourself and your equipment, for example, pool skimmers, which can be quite long, far away from overhead power lines, and our recommendation is at least three meters away. So that's on the homeowner side. And if we want to switch it now to the work side, on the occupational side, I point to the fall of 2019. Were in the span of about 24 hours, we were notified tragically of two critical injuries and two deaths as a result of powerline contact. And those were four separate incidents. So one was a crane construction worker. The second one was arborists that were it was a team of two arborists that were involved in tree trimming. The third one involved a TTC worker. So that's the Toronto Transit Commission in Toronto. And, and the fourth one was a drill operator. So this was a really tragic day where you had a number of incidents just occurring in very close temporal proximity. But it was also a catalyst for us to think about redesigning our power line campaign. And so what we're doing as a result is we have campaigns twice annually so that we make sure it's at the start of construction season, as well as in the fall months. We're also working closely with the Ministry of Labor to understand all of the circumstances behind those incidents. And we also work with our industry partners to make sure that we educate workers who are at high risk, and I mentioned arborist as an example. So we want to again focus in on those occupations that we think are at high risk of powerline contact. We've also observed a rise in incidents involving young workers. And as a result, we have specialists who go to the colleges to ensure that students young workers involved in things like heavy machinery operation in the arborist industry, get the information about the potential hazard around power line contact, so to ensure that they're well educated on that. And we also encourage any companies. So anyone who is listening to this podcast, who you know works in a construction related area, if you want to give us a call about our spring startup sessions, we're happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact. And you can do this by just emailing us at ESA.communications@esasafe.com. And we'd be happy to do a spring startup session for folks.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:11
Thanks, Josie. We'll make sure to include that in our show notes. So we read that the Electrical Safety Authority is striving to be a modern risk based electrical safety regulator for Ontarians. What exactly does that mean?
Josie Erzetic 14:25
Yeah, it's a great question. And I often think about that, myself, what does it mean to be to be a modern regulator, so it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but I'll sort of give you the key elements of it for us. So it really, it means to us to use something that we call risk based oversight. It means leveraging technology and really fostering the capabilities of our people. So when we say risk based oversight, as you can imagine, trying to be a safety regulator. The complex world we live in today in a in a province, as populous as the province of Ontario is a difficult task, you can't be everywhere all at once. So we use risk base to really prioritize and focus on the highest risk electrical installations, we actually have an algorithm that helps us understand which installations are the high risk ones, and we prioritize those and have a whole system for prioritization. So we're basically putting the most time in the highest risk areas. Along those lines were also through. And we did this through the COVID period, we're really piloting the use of what we call remote inspections. So that in other words, rather than an inspector attending at each installation, there's the possibility for a licensed electrical contractor to send in photos or videos. And we put job aids around that and given instruction to the industry about what we're looking for. So again, so low risk installation, and in the inspectors discretion, they can accept photos or videos, which you can imagine, makes it more efficient for us doing our job. And it's also, you know, potentially an efficiency value to the contractor as well to submit photos rather than having somebody attend in person. So that's another thing where we're moving forward as a modern regulator, I'd say, in terms of leveraging technology, we've really moved digital, I think, as have a lot of companies at this time. So example, where we used to have all our master exams happening in person, they can now happen virtually. So we have a system where we can do virtual proctoring of exams, so you can do your exam online, we can do online training, which is either synchronous or asynchronous, which is which is terrific for folks. If it's synchronous, then you might have an instructor with you asynchronous, you're watching videos, or you're going through PowerPoint on on your own time. So it's, it's leveraging technology for us, but also for the folks that we service. And another big thing we've done is our plan review group, which looks at electrical drawings, for complex electrical installations. So say, for example, for a car manufacturer or a large industry, rather than having these clients submit hard copies of complicated electrical plans, they can now do so digitally through our electronic plan review portal. So that's something again, that's very good for clients and good for efficiency purposes. For us, we also have a new scheduling tool that provides customers better notice of when an inspector is going to arrive, which is again, a real win from a from an efficiency standpoint, and we're now launching a project that would allow master electricians and licensed electrical contractors to submit documents online, so time saving there. And the last area I'd say is focusing on fostering new skills. So where our employees need to augment skills or develop new skills, we're very supportive of continuing education and, and skills broadening. And we're also looking at where do we have gaps? Where is technology? Or is our sector evolving, and we need to ensure we're evolving with it. So an example I give you there is what we've just been talking about, which is around data analytics. So we've recognized that we need to improve our capability in that regard. And as a result, we've hired a couple of new people to help us in that regard. And we're also augmenting skills of folks that we already have working for us. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention diversity and inclusion. I think a lot of employers are thinking about that right now, as are we. And so we do have what we call an idea strategy, which is inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility. And I think that is a very important part of being a modern regulator. And I would say that, you know, I'm really happy to report that 80% of our executive team is now women. So I think we're making some real advances in that area, but you know, I'll be honest with you, I'd like to see more so We're continuing to work on that. So I guess that's in summary, what I really see is being a modern regulator.
Dan Seguin 20:08
That's very interesting. Thanks, Josie. Now, wondering if you could tell us about your organization's new corporate strategy at a high level? Can you walk us through the four strategic goals and why they're so important?
Josie Erzetic 20:23
Yeah. So it's, it's a very good question. And some of these goals we have maintained from previous years and others we've really expanded upon. So I would say the, the first of the four main goals is really safety. And that's one that's always been a focus of our organization. But having said that, we can all see the rapid evolution of technology in the sector. So we're really maintaining a close focus on that, and working with industry partners in that regard. So examples I give you there are things like the adoption of electric vehicles or energy storage technologies. So in the example I give you is that I'm currently sitting on a council that the Ministry of Transportation has set up around Evie adoption. So we want to participate on councils like that, that look at this one is on the electrification of the transportation sector. So that's an important part important pillar in the strategy, and an important part of what we're doing. So we do things like we anticipate new risk areas, we have something called the harm lifecycle, which really has a scanning the market, looking at potential for new technology, new harms that we should be monitoring and assessing. And then we decide, is this a high risk area that we would like to pilot a program in as an example? Is this something we should be partnering on? Like the example I just gave you with what MTO is doing? Is this something that we want to continue as a program, once we have achieved our goals in it? Is it something that we exit from so we have a whole lifecycle and how we look at risk. So I think that's an important part of the new strategy around safety. And then compliance, that's also something that we have carried over from our previous strategy. But I think, if anything, I would say we're almost amping up what we're doing in this area. So we work closely with our licensed communities, for example, the licensed electrical contractor community, and we educate the public in terms of ensuring that they hire a licensed electrical contractor, rather than, for example, going to unlicensed individuals. And we refer to that as the underground economy. So I would say that this new strategy really emphasizes the importance of getting at that underground economy or, you know, I'd like to put it as like, just let's take a bite out of that underground economy, let's reduce what's going on there. So we want to educate homeowners to not hire unlicensed individuals. And we will take enforcement action, where it's required against those people who are working illegally and not taking out licenses or permits because there are real safety and consumer protection risks around that type of work. And we've got some real active campaigns around that. For example, we have a Kijiji Blitz, where we are actively looking for people advertising services illegally on Kijiji and forcing those to come off Kijiji. Our third goal is operating with organizational agility. And I think, as a lot of companies are doing today, and as we talked about earlier, we're trying to leverage technology to make ourselves more efficient, and reduce, you know, burden for the licensees. So whether those are licensed electrical contractors, or LDCs, such as Hydro Ottawa, we're trying to reduce burden for our clients. And I think the last area is really around public accountability. We want to be seen as a publicly accountable transparent regulator So we do regular surveys of our customers to identify areas for improvement. You know, what are our strengths? But what are our weaknesses? And how can we do better? I think ESA has a culture of continuous improvement, which we're very proud of.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:18
Thanks for the reference to the underground economy, it seems like there's a black market for everything, even electrical services. Has there been a story that's stuck with you in regards to an electrical incident resulting in a serious injury that could have been prevented? Or is there a safety tip that you wish everybody knew?
Josie Erzetic 25:37
Yeah. So thank you for that question. And something that is real top of mind for me lately, is something called lichtenburg generators. So we've had a number of serious injuries and some deaths involving these devices. And my safety tip is stop using these devices. They are devices that they can either be made. So people were seeing people doing them as do it yourself projects, or they can be purchased. However, they're not a product that's either approved or certified by any certification body, and they're extremely dangerous. So we're aware of at least five fatalities and one critical injury that have taken place over the last three years. And a couple of those fatalities occurred earlier this year. And what these things are, I don't know if you've ever heard of them before, but they are used to create art. So they're like a wood burning type device. So you create it by burning designs into wood or acrylic. But they're a lot of them are homemade. And people take parts out of microwaves, for example, to put these things together. And they have a lot of accessible wiring components. So they're very unsafe to handle. And so and particularly on social media forums, we're seeing that individuals are posting videos, and they're instructing each other on how to build these devices. So right now we have a very comprehensive public safety awareness campaign to educate the public about the dangers of using Lichtenberg generators. And we're specifically targeting that sort of do it yourself, community and those who are interested in things like woodworking so what we're finding it's primarily men aged between 20 and 40, to not carry out this type of hobby and not use these types of devices. And if anyone is aware of advertising of this kind of advice, we would encourage them to call us at 1-877-esa-safe or visit us online. And and make us aware of this because we are asking, particularly YouTube to try to get these How To Videos removed. So the safety tip again, is don't use these devices. They're very dangerous.
Dan Seguin 28:20
Now your organization has a vision, a big vision to create an Ontario where people can live, work and play safe from electrical harm. During the pandemic, have there been any particular challenges or opportunities in achieving this?
Josie Erzetic 28:37
Yeah, it absolutely, because as I'm sure you both have found, people were at home. That means, among other things, a lot of on at home online shopping. So we want to make sure that people are very aware that electrical products that you're looking at, make sure they've been approved by a recognized certification body. So from both a safety awareness point of view, but also a consumer protection point of view, we want to make sure that people are buying approved products, as you both know. Online, it's so it's a global problem. You can buy products from anywhere in the world now and have them shipped directly to your house. So again, as a regulator, it's hard to be everywhere all at once. So the best thing is to have consumers aware themselves that when you're buying electrical products, you will want to ensure that it's either CSA certified UL certified, that you've got an approval mark on that product and you look for it when you're buying it on these online platforms. We share jurisdiction here with Health Canada, so I know Health Canada is all so concerned about this problem. So what we've done is we've set up a task force and we include ourselves on it, Health Canada, our own ministry, provincially, which is the ministry of government and Consumer Services. We've got manufacturers working with us distributors, consumer advocates, we've got bricks and mortar stores as part of the task force. But we also have online retailers. And we're all discussing the problem of consumer awareness, consumer protection and safety, because it's an all our interest to make sure people are safe. And we're putting resources into follow up on any reports we see, or we receive about unsafe consumer products. So we have been and we will follow up on 100% of reports we receive where somebody says, Look, I bought this thing it's unapproved, you know, I found that it sparked or there was a flash, when I tried to plug it in, we will follow up on all these things. We're also really enhancing consumer consumer awareness efforts, especially around this time of year, we're heading into holiday shopping season. And so we do have a holiday safety campaign. That's where we see a lot of people online, a lot of people looking at electrical products. So this campaign really focuses on consumer safety. And this year, in particular, we're encouraging folks who, you know, may be doing a lot of holiday decorating, they may be getting together to do this type of thing. So they're putting more emphasis on it this year, I don't know maybe more so than last year, when nobody came over. We're saying, you know, look closely at your your lights, right, your holiday lights that you're buying, make sure they're approved, make sure you use them correctly. Make sure if you have old ones that you're digging out of your basement, that there's no damage to cords, so just you know, be careful.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:04
Josie, you mentioned amateur DIY is like the dangerous Lichtenberg wood burning video on YouTube. Has there been other instances where the Electrical Safety Authority has seen an increase in electrical accidents? Or what about new areas of concern?
Josie Erzetic 32:20
Yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a good question. And again, particularly through this pandemic period, where people are looking for new hobbies, or, you know, they're at home, they're thinking about ways to renovate their house, maybe they cannot find a contractor or someone says to them, okay, it'll be months and months before somebody can get your house. So they just, they feel like, Oh, well, I could I want to do it myself. Right. So in that sense, we really remind homeowners consumers, that electricity is something that is dangerous, that you need to hire a professional to do it, there is the potential homeowners can do their own work. But in our view, it is better to hire a professional because there are safety risks inherent in the work. If homeowners are doing it themselves, then we certainly would remind them that they must take out the proper notifications with ESA, because that then has an inspector coming to their house to inspect the work. So at the very least, you want to ensure that happens. But we would say primarily, look, leave it to the professionals. So hire a licensed electrical contractor. And only a licensed electrical contracting business can be hired to do this. So when you're hiring people, we also remind folks to ask to see the accurate slash ESA license number. So that should be ever it should be on the estimates you get. It should be on their their trucks, their business cards, their ultimate invoice if you're not seeing that you could be hiring somebody that's in that underground economy that we talked about earlier. So be very careful about who you're hiring. And in this regard, obviously, ESA puts out a lot of its own information. But we also now are partnering with the Mike Holmes group. And you'll probably remember Mike Holmes He's done a lot of work on television. He does a lot of work also through social media. So he has a very large following. And so as a result, we're able to amplify the message by working with that group with Mike Holmes and his family to really get out that message that this is something maybe you don't want to take on on your own because of the safety risks. So certainly, both Mike his son, Mike Jr, and Sherry have posted both on YouTube as well as their other social channels about the importance when you're thinking about renovating to hire a licensed electrical contractor, and also the importance of ensuring you ensuring that you have ESA inspect the work. So you want to make sure at the end of the job, you get an ESA certificate of acceptance when the job's complete. So you know, it's done right. The other thing we've been noticing recently, and we've really made an effort to get the word out on this, so maybe I'll mention it here on this podcast as well, is the difference between a licensed electrical contractor, a master electrician, or what we call a C of Q, Certificate of Qualification holder, a certified electrician. Sometimes people think, oh, this person is an electrician, I'll just hire them directly know, who you need to hire is a licensed electrical contractor, because they are a business. And they were required by us to have $2 million in liability insurance, as well as the WSIB insurance coverage. So how this works is the licensed electrical contractor employs Master electricians who are responsible for overseeing the work of certified electricians, so you don't hire those folks directly. You hire the LEC, and it's important for consumer protection, because that way, if there's an injury, God forbid, or something happens in your home, then there is insurance that covers that. And the homeowner, him or herself is not responsible. So we're really working to increase awareness on the differences between the licensed electrical contracting businesses, which are who you hire, versus the master electricians or the certified electricians. I think that's very important.
Rebecca Schwartz 37:17
Great tips Josie and gotta love Mike Holmes, perhaps now a little bit more broadly, pandemic times or not what are some of the biggest challenges and opportunities that are facing the Electrical Safety Authority right now in general?
Josie Erzetic 37:32
I think I I go back to the underground economy and underground work that we we talked about earlier. So and I think we mentioned that it's just it's such a big problem, not just for our sector. But overall, I think, Rebecca, that you mentioned that you can, you know, almost buy anything in the underground market now. So you really, I think Statistics Canada estimates the underground economy is over $16 billion. That's with a B in Ontario alone. So it's just it's a big problem. And we as I said, I'd like to start a new slogan, like, let's take a bite out of the underground economy, like we really need to ensure with something like electricity, there are such safety and consumer protection issues, that this is not something you want to fool around with and leave to someone who's non licensed and not take out proper permits in this area. There's just too much at risk both with your personal safety and the safety of your home. There could be a fire that results from this. So what are we doing to really tackle this i and Daniel, I think you mentioned it earlier too. It's the Kijiji work so we're actually working a lot of people go online to find contractors. We are online and looking at those ads on Kijiji, and we will send notification to advertisers who we think are unlicensed businesses offering these types of services. If we don't get a voluntary response to take down that ad, Kijiji will forcibly remove it so big shout out to Kijiji for working with us and taking those ads down. And and if we still get repeat offenders, you wouldn't believe this people will come back and advertise again. We're prosecuting them. So we now have 20 charges pending before courts. So I would say that number one consumers do not hire unlicensed people. Be careful about who you're hiring online. We're out there we're working on it, but be careful as to see those licenses people who are doing this work illegally. I would say we are working hard to pull your ads off. Do not do this come into the licensed community. If you want to do this work, then get a license and do it properly. or we will also be looking to prosecute. So we this is important. The other thing we noticed with a high level of EV adoption, we undertook an EV charger Blitz. So we noticed that some EV charging systems that you put in your home in order to charge your vehicle were being done by unlicensed individuals and being done without permits. So we had our inspectors go out and inspect and alert both homeowners because sometimes homeowners don't know that was put in improperly and alert us to where we saw, charters being put in without permits are being put in by unlicensed contractors. And as a result, we've noticed this the period that we were looking at it this year, compared to last year, we've had almost a doubling of the amount of notifications that were taken out. So it makes a big difference when people know that we're out there. We're inspecting these things, and we expect them to be done properly and safety. And we also have an anonymous online reporting tool. So I would even say to your listeners, if you think there could be unlicensed activity going on somewhere, please let us know about it. So you can go online, you will, it's anonymous, but we do appreciate details. So we can do the follow up and investigate, you go to esasafe.com. And we found that this has been a very effective tool since we launched it in April 2020. To get reports, and I will tell people that we do follow up on 100% of the leads we get about unlicensed activity.
Dan Seguin 41:47
Okay, we've covered challenges and opportunities. What about the rise of digital communication? Has it changed your organization's ability to communicate safety messaging?
Josie Erzetic 41:59
Yeah, I'd say it, it really, really has. And we've shifted a lot of our educational campaigns on to social media, because as we alluded to earlier, we do find that is where people are looking, for example, to hire contractors, they're looking for ideas, say on renovation, you know, people will follow certain interior designers, they they will follow renovators on things like Instagram, or they'll follow them on Twitter. So we're leveraging platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Google, YouTube, all of those, because we find that that's where people are going now. But we also find there are potential dangers lurking there as well. And so we really have to monitor and be on top of those. So I'll give you an example of something that was a tic toc challenge that that we were made aware of in early 2020. And this was a challenge where that was issued over tick tock and it was basically about plugging in a phone charger. And then using either was a penny or a nickel or something to drag across the exposed prongs. And it results in in smoke and sparks and but it can also result in fire. So it this is obviously a really dangerous activity. So we became aware of it on social media. And then we use social as well as traditional media in order to educate, you know, basically parents and kids who were doing this, that this was unsafe, and they shouldn't be doing it. And we that was a very successful campaign. And we had more than 15 million views on that. And so we're very, very grateful. And, and we actually we won some awards for what we were able to do with with social media just in terms of identifying a risk and then educating people that they shouldn't be carrying engaging in this activity. And and I guess I should say to that we're also we're leveraging some new new opportunities, like a podcast like what you guys are doing here, which I applaud you for, by the way, we're trying to do the same thing.
Rebecca Schwartz 44:21
Now Josie, our listeners have made it this far. And now they want to know some ways that they can keep their electrical safety knowledge up to date. How can they do that?
Josie Erzetic 44:30
Yeah. So one way to do it is exactly what the two of you are doing with your podcast. We have our own podcast and it's really focused on electrical safety. So it's called Grounded in Ontario, and you can find it on our website at ESAsafe.com/podcast, but you can also go to typical platforms where you'd find podcasts like Apple podcasts or Spotify and located there. So we have new episodes coming out basically monthly. And we talk about things like what we've talked about here and more. So we've had an episode on pools and hot tubs and safety issues relating to that those EV supply equipment. So electrical vehicle chargers, which we also alluded to here, we also talk about arc fault and ground fault circuit interrupters. And we have a new episode that's just coming out on the underground economy, which we've also talked about. So that's a great place to get information. Also, our website has a lot of information and talks about things like do it yourself, renovations, talks about holiday safety talks about home and work safety. So I would, you know, recommend listeners go there. And I'd also always encourage people that if there are safety concerns, or you want to report activity, please go to our website, or please call us and I can give you the number, it's 1-877-372-7233. So we'd love to hear from people.
Dan Seguin 46:12
Okay, as it relates to your podcast Grounded in Ontario, I'll make sure that we post a link in our show notes, well Josie How about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready?
Josie Erzetic 46:26
I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 46:27
Okay. What is your favorite word?
Josie Erzetic 46:30
I have to say I, I you know, obviously top of mind for me. workwise is safety. But just one of my favorite things to think about is also chocolate.
Dan Seguin 46:40
Now, what is one thing you can't live without?
Josie Erzetic 46:45
Chocolate?
Dan Seguin 46:45
What is something that challenges you
Josie Erzetic 46:48
with Rebecca, my love of chocolate? Because then I have to make sure that I you know, keep exercising or something?
Dan Seguin 46:55
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Josie Erzetic 47:00
I think the superpower question is always a really is a really great one. And I always I like picking flying for this one. Because then I figure it makes the commuting easier. And it would just be would it be great to just zip to your cottage fast or you know, zip to Europe or something. Especially these times where you know, travel is so difficult.
Dan Seguin 47:22
Josie This is my favorite one here. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self. What would you tell her?
Josie Erzetic 47:29
Okay, this one, this one I am going to answer very seriously, I would say something that I say to my my kids now who are 19 and 16. And that is believe in yourself. Believe in yourself believe in what you can do. You know, trust, trust yourself. So that that I think is very important for young people to remember.
Dan Seguin 47:53
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in this sector?
Josie Erzetic 47:59
Um, so I would say it's it's the pace of change. I just think our sector the energy sector is just fascinating. Right now we've talked about things like electrification of transportation, and the speed of the adoption there. We think of things like energy storage, the growth of renewables, I think of distribute, you know, distributed energy resources. I think it's fascinating. We're all concerned about climate change. So we're thinking about how we can reduce our carbon footprint, what, what role does energy play in that? What What will it look like 2030 4050 years from now where we might have entire communities that are doing things like net metering, we might have, you know, renewable generation, within a smaller community, or just you'll have solar panels on your roof, you'll have an energy storage system in your basement, you'll have an Eevee charging outside. So I think that is fascinating. I think energy is so fundamental to how we live and maybe how we'll deal with fundamental global issues like the climate crisis. And so ESA is part of that. I think it's so exciting, because you need to have all of that working safely. So the role we play is fascinating. So that's what I just find hugely fascinating and challenging about our sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 49:25
Well, Josie, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thanks so much for joining Dan and I today. We hope you had fun.
Josie Erzetic 49:33
I had a great time with you guys. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
Rebecca Schwartz 49:38
I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review.
Dan Seguin 49:46
Now For show notes and bonus content visit hydroottawa.com/thinkenergy. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us. Thank you for listening.
Without pollinators like bees and butterflies, our food supply suffers drastically. It’s incredible to think these small insects play such a large role in our existence. With climate change, increased pesticide use, and other limiting factors, pollinator populations are declining drastically. It may seem unlikely, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are actually suited to help restore the environments these pollinators need to thrive. Relive our conversation on how this is possible with restoration ecologist Tracey Etwell of the Canadian Wildlife Federation and Meaghan McDonald, lake planning and shoreline stewardship coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around green innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15th to kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. On today's show, we're going to talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees literally. Did you know that across North America, the populations of monarch butterflies, bees and other pollinators are in a steep decline due to herbicides, pesticides, climate change, and a reduction in natural pollinator habitats. Pollinators are responsible for a third of the world's food supply, so they are extremely vital to our existence in Canada. There are more than 1000 species of pollinating animals that are responsible for billions of dollars worth of Canadian farm produce flowers, and ecosystems that rely on pollination. In short, without pollinators, food supply would suffer drastically. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are ideally suited to restore these environments, thanks to a number of utility corridors and properties in their service territories, not to mention their kilometers of power lines, and right aways along roadsides. Moreover, vegetation along utility corridors are compatible with these types of vegetation necessary to support pollinators. In 2019, Hydro Ottawa began civil construction of its largest ever municipal transformer station in the south end of Ottawa situated on 24 acres of land since the new transformer station requires only five acres of property, Hydro Ottawa partnered with the City of Ottawa, Rideau Valley Conservation Authority, and the Canadian Wildlife Federation to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario, adjacent to this future station. The agreement means that 15 acres will be dedicated to a pollinator meadow, which is scheduled for seeding. In the spring of 2021, a four acre tree reforestation area was reforested in 2020, with 2750 trees thanks to the Rideau River Conservation Authority. So here's today's big question. What goes into a successful pollinator meadow? And how can we as an industry, and as ordinary citizens help the movement by building more pollinator meadows? Maybe in our own backyards? I have two guests joining me today for this podcast. My first guest is Tracey Etwell, a Restoration Ecologist with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. Tracey supports the Right of Way program, which helps restore pollinator meadows for monarch butterflies and other pollinators in Eastern Ontario. My second guest is Meaghan McDonald, Lake Planning and Shoreline Stewardship Coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. There are 36 Conservation Authorities in Ontario responsible for furthering the restoration, development and management of watershed and they're now soil resources across the province. Thank you both for joining me today. So, Tracey, let's start with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. What are pollinators? What important role do pollinators play? And what does pollinator habitat look like?
Tracey Etwell 05:21
Great question, Dan. So as a group, there are many species that are pollinators. Many people aren't aware there's things like native bees, flies, moths, butterflies, beetles, and even our hummingbirds are pollinators. But when we talk about our pollinator habitat in our project, we're really focusing on the insects, such as our native bees, flies and butterflies, and pollinator habitat varies depending on each species. But all insect pollinators benefit from open meadows full of wildflowers and grasses. And these native flowers provide the pollen and the nectar and the vegetation in general for the species to hide and nest and over winter. And also, some of these flowers are very specific hosts for butterflies and moths, where they require that specific plant for their lifecycle.
Dan Seguin 06:04
Now, this question is for both- do habitats vary depending on where they're located in the province and country? If so, what's unique about Eastern Ontario? Wondering, Meaghan, if you can expand on this? And then what about you, Tracey?
Meaghan McDonald 06:21
Yeah, sure. So obviously, our country is massive. So there's a big variety of habitats, we've got mountains, prairies, plaines, forests, wetlands, all sorts of things. I think what's kind of unique about Eastern Ontario, maybe in comparison to our southern counterpart there is that we do have still quite a lot of natural areas available to us. The development pressures out here are are building just as they are in the southern region. But I think in Eastern Ontario, there's a really good opportunity to sort of preserve what we already have and protect the resources that we already have as that development occurs. So I think that's kind of a unique feature out here.
Tracey Etwell 07:02
So our focus on in Eastern Ontario is based on two things. One is that the threatened monarch butterfly range in Canada is heavily focused in Ontario and Quebec. So obviously, we're overlapping that region. And secondly, our funder, which is the Ontario Trillium Foundation has sponsored our work in the Eastern Ontario region. There are also tons and tons of rights of way here which we define as roadways, transmission lines and pipelines. And as Meaghan said, we do have habitat across Canada. And the management of this vegetationcalong with rights of way is compatible with meadow habitat, which benefits these pollinators. And we're hoping that rights of way meadow projects will catch on across Canada. And we're busy creating a national network of rights of way managers to encourage meadow habitat restoration across the country.
Dan Seguin 07:47
Okay, Tracey, I know that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline in pollinators and their habitats. Based on your experience, what are those reasons? And is there one in particular, that's been identified as the most destructive force?
Tracey Etwell 08:05
Yeah, so you're correct. There are many forces that contribute to this. The biggest one is thought to be the loss of habitat, which is consistent with a lot of species. When land is developed, that habitat is lost. Also, these insects need large quarters of habitat to travel around. So when these pieces get disconnected, it's harder for these pollinators to find that habitat. Also, in Eastern Ontario, the invasive plant species, while personal, which some people may be aware of is another threat. It's spread rapidly throughout the area and is out competing or native wildflowers. It's hard to control. In many places they spray and frequent mowing, or the ways that control it. Then, so when that's done controlled, then those native species that would have been there are now removed. So we're hoping once wild parsnip can be under control, better meadow habitat restoration can support these populations.
Dan Seguin 08:59
Back to you, Meaghan, can you tell us about the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority and what types of stewardship projects you're involved with?
Meaghan McDonald 09:10
Sure. So in partnership with our Foundation Branch, the Rideau Valley Conservation Foundation, we offer a number of stewardship programs that are really aimed at largely private landowners, but also municipalities and public landowners as well. Our main one would really be our forestation and tree planting program. We plant about 200,000 trees just in the Rideau watershed alone every year. We also have a shoreline naturalization program, which helps a lot of shoreline landowners create sort of a natural buffer along their waterways. We have a lot of lakes and rivers in our watershed that we're fortunate to have so we like to help help landowners protect what they have on their property. We also have a rural clean water grant program which is aimed at helping farmers do clean water projects on their property. And then, in addition to that, we also do some stream monitoring, wetland restoration, invasive species removal, and garbage cleanups, especially in the City of Ottawa with our city stream launch program
Dan Seguin 10:17
With respect to pollinator meadows, Meaghan, what can you tell us about your organization's role? Do you bring your regional expertise about Eastern Ontario's environment and its native plants?
Meaghan McDonald 10:29
Yeah, so we don't have a huge focus on pollinators in our organization; we've historically been a lot more focused on water quality protection projects, which is why it's so important for us to have partners like the Canadian Wildlife Federation to partner with on on projects like this. So we don't have a major role in the pollinator project realm. Where we do bring our regional expertise is more for tree planting, shoreline naturalization, so your trees and your shrubs and items like that through our stewardship programs, we also partner with our nursery or nurseries or suppliers, the Ferguson Tree Nursery, which is located down in Kemptville. And they've been working lately with us and a few other groups in the in the Ottawa Valley on expanding their product line, away from just trees so that they also can be a source of native pollinator species as well in Eastern Ontario. Right now, it's really aimed at potted plants for landowners if they want to, you know, create a little habitat pollinator habitat in their own property. But they are looking at expanding that so that they can be a local source source for native seed as well. It's very important that we kind of keep that local seed source in the area, because when you are bringing in plants from different regions they are sometimes not quite as adapted to our current climate conditions as as, say, Southern Ontario or other parts of the country. So yeah, really, The Canadian Wildlife Federation is is kind of the expert on this project that we're working with and we're very happy to have their their expertise onboard.
Dan Seguin 12:17
You both are playing integral parts in the 15 acre pollinator meadows that Hydro Ottawa is building in the south end of the city. I understand it's one of the largest in eastern Ontario. Tracy, why are utilities a key player in Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator recovery efforts?
Tracey Etwell 12:40
Oh, so CWF was very excited to be partnering with Hydro Ottawa and RVCA on this initiative, which is one of the largest projects as you mentioned. So utilities are a key player in our pollinator restoration efforts as they maintain over 160,000 kilometres of transmission lines; 1000s of generation stations across Canada, which has huge potential for pollinator habitat restoration, also their linear design are relatively easy for pollinators to find. Since utilities need to control the woody species over the long term along these facilities. It provides a great place for the wildflowers and grasses to grow. And it provides a great opportunity for you utilities to just demonstrate environmental leadership and provide the habitat. That's that's a win win for the utilities and the pollinators.
Dan Seguin 13:27
And now for you, Meaghan, what kind of follow up work does Rideau Valley Conservation Authority do for a project like Hydro's 15 acre pollinator meadow?
Meaghan McDonald 13:40
Yeah, so um, for this project, we're actually already going to be on site for a related tree planting project. So it's kind of why we are involved in the in the pollinator side, because it does take a little bit of work to establish native pollinators seed, many of the native seeds, for example, they might take one, two, maybe more years to germinate, and really a few years before they really establish and take over. So it's really important that we manage that area for invasive species so that they don't take over or that an opportunity- opportunistic species, like Tracey mentioned, poison parsnip, for example, or Manitoba Maple seedlings that they don't move in. So this will be done really through annual to semi-annual mowing of the site. So we wait till the until the right time to sort of do a mow so that we can remove some of the unwanted species, allowing the native ones to really come up. And we'll probably also do a little bit of spot removal of the undesirable plants as that as they as they come up as well. And we'll do some monitoring as well. Plots throughout the meadow that'll let us sort of measure how well the native plants are really coming along and at what rates which will be great because it will be a great learning experience for us. Since we don't personally have a lot of experience, it'll just kind of be a great way to see what works and what doesn't. And what goes into a project like this so that hopefully we can be involved with more in the future.
Dan Seguin 15:12
The Rideau Valley Conservation Authority has also planted 2750 trees on four acres at this site. Meaghan, is the reforestation connected to the meadow? Or is it a separate but complementary initiative?
Meaghan McDonald 15:30
Yeah, I think it's kind of it's kind of cool that it is on the same site. The trees were planted last spring. And they kind of form a little bit of a barrier around the outside area of the pollinator garden, or the prop line or inside the pollinator meadow. So it's, it does create a nice barrier between the meadow and the adjacent highway and adjacent farmer and farm field. So it's going to create a nice little windbreak. It will also help with some of the salt spray that's coming off the highway. And these trees were really planted as part as a compensation for the station that's being built there. And we found that having the combination of the trees as the compensation and also the opportunity for the pollinator habitat was just such a great opportunity at this particular site, just because we don't so we don't really want to get trees planted too close to the station, especially with the the tornado that came through a few years ago. So it's nice to have those trees at a distance, but also have that nice low growing easy to maintain pollinator meadow in the areas directly surrounding it. So it's a nice combination there.
Dan Seguin 16:45
Now understanding that without pollinators, Canada's food supply is threatened. Tracey, how is the Canadian Wildlife Federation building resources and support for these projects?
Tracey Etwell 16:58
Yes, so the Canadian Wildlife Federation is committed to supporting pollinators for both our diverse biodiversity and our food supply. As you mentioned, many of the nutritious plants we eat such as fruits and vegetables rely on insect pollination, and 90% of the world's flowering plants rely on insect pollination. So it's critical that as a global society, we support these insect pollinators. Now our project is focused on a variety of support such as technical expertise in building these meadows, increasing the native seed supply in Ontario, and providing case studies of the costs and benefits of restoring meadow habitat. We work with interested managers to develop their respective projects. And we've also only recently formed the Canadian branch of rights of way within the US rights of way habitat working group to enhance our network so that we have more access to resources, case studies and best practices.
Dan Seguin 17:48
I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this next question, Tracey. Road right aways are a major push for Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator initiative. Why build them there?
Tracey Etwell 18:02
Yeah, so like transmission lines, road rights of way are another area of great potential for habitat. If you think about the over 1 million kilometers of roads across Canada, that's a lot of space for pollinator habitat. There's also a lot of interest in maintaining and reducing the mowing and the herbicide use that goes into maintaining roads. And by using native plants that can allow for that reduction in those two aspects. And it may even save municipalities municipal maintenance costs by reducing these efforts. And also, it's a great opportunity to share the initiative with the public that are driving by and can see these beautiful displays.
Dan Seguin 18:40
Now for my last question for both of you. How can landowners improve pollinator habitats on their properties? And what could citizens do to support this work? Or our pollinator friends in general? Meaghan, let's start with you and the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.
Meaghan McDonald 19:00
Sure! So we always promote the use of native plants on properties for a number of reasons. They obviously have benefits to pollinators. But they also are often like low more low maintenance and typical ornamental plants. So we would encourage folks that that are gardening or are looking for something to plant on their property, then maybe consider some of our native plant species just because they do have that added benefit to the pollinators. We will also of course, promote the use of Cree native plants along natural areas like shorelines in addition to sort of the, the the wildflowers and the meadow species that we're using in this project, there's lots of native trees and shrubs as well that they can consider that are beneficial to pollinators. I was just gonna say and then supporting your local native nurseries. There's a there's a few in the Ottawa Valley that people can consider. And sometimes it just takes a little bit more searching and then digging to find those native native plants for your garden, but they're out there. And if we all support our local native nurseries, then they'll be able to continue supplying those plants for us.
Dan Seguin 20:24
And now, Tracey, what about from the Canadian Wildlife Federation perspective?
Tracey Etwell 20:28
Right, so we also support backyard gardens planted with native plants. It's a great start. We offer many webinars and guides online to help people get into this mode of planting. Some other things that people can do, that they might not have considered is leaving leaves on your lawn and garden in the fall. Many of these pollinators actually, overwinter and they'll use that that habitat to protect themselves from the winter conditions. Lastly, if you can resist mowing those dandelions until more spring flowers bloom. And that's one of the first floral resources that are available for pollinators. And the spring is actually one of the hardest seasons for them to get going because there's very little for them to feed on and they're very hungry, obviously. So something else you can also do is overseed. With clover in your garden, then clover is a great resource for pollinators. In terms of bigger things, you can contact your local councils and ask them to become a bee city, which is a specific designation, which means they support pollinators and you have projects that support that. And also contact your municipality and ask them if they can support meadow habitat restoration projects in their area.
Dan Seguin 21:40
Okay, Tracey, and Meaghan, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions? We'll start with Tracy and then we'll follow up with Meaghan.
Tracey Etwell 21:50
Sure
Meaghan McDonald 21:52
Sounds good.
Dan Seguin 21:53
What is your favorite pollinator?
Tracey Etwell 21:57
My favorite pollinator is the Gypsy Cuckoo Bumblebee, which is an endangered Bumblebee with a great name.
Meaghan McDonald 22:05
I was just gonna say our native bees, there's many species and I think they're all important. So I don't have quite a specific answer, but native bees.
Dan Seguin 22:15
Now, what is your favorite flower?
Tracey Etwell 22:18
My favorite is the Brown Eyed Susan, which is a native plant, of course, a powerhouse for pollinators and very easy to grow.
Meaghan McDonald 22:27
I like Wild Bergamot. It's again, easy to grow. And it's got a really cool kind of purple flower on it.
Dan Seguin 22:35
Moving on, what is one thing you can't live without?
Tracey Etwell 22:41
Chocolate? Always chocolate?
Meaghan McDonald 22:45
And I would say coffee.
Dan Seguin 22:49
What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?
Tracey Etwell 22:55
For me, it's been sourdough baking, making my own.
Meaghan McDonald 23:01
I've been starting a lot of craft projects and not finishing them. We also got a canoe last year and new cross country skis this winter.
Dan Seguin 23:09
Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Tracey Etwell 23:14
For me it would be to fly to travel and see the world.
Meaghan McDonald 23:18
Also to fly
Dan Seguin 23:22
This is an interesting one. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you be telling her?
Tracey Etwell 23:30
I would tell her to enjoy life more and not to be so serious.
Meaghan McDonald 23:36
I would say save and also travel and spend time with friends and family as much as you can while you can.
Dan Seguin 23:42
Okay, what excites you most about these pollinator projects?
Tracey Etwell 23:49
I get excited to see the new life emerge. So when new plants start to blow when the insects start to come in and use that habitat that just fills me with joy.
Meaghan McDonald 24:00
And I'm excited about kind of learning something new because these projects are new for us and being able to bring some of that knowledge to our landowners and then also to some of our conservation areas as well.
Dan Seguin 24:11
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Tracey Etwell 24:18
For me, I would say it's the new application of new technologies that are coming online that help us support the conservation projects and answering specific questions that we need help with.
Meaghan McDonald 24:29
And I really like working with landowners and sort of seeing them connect the dots on how what they do on their property really impacts nature and it's always fun to see.
Dan Seguin 24:40
Well, Tracey, Meaghan, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. I truly hope you had a lot of fun. And thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.
Tracey Etwell 24:54
It's been great. Thank you, Dan.
Meaghan McDonald 24:56
Yeah, thank you.
Dan Seguin 24:58
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The summer heat is in full swing, so let’s revisit why systems like district energy could be a sustainable way to heat and cool communities—ultimately working towards a zero carbon footprint. Jeff Westeinde, President of Zibi Canada and Founding Partner of Windmill Development Group joined thinkenergy to talk about how Zibi, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project, embraces district energy and One Planet Living. Relive this episode as part of thinkenergy’s Summer Recharge!
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers. I'm Dan Seguin from Hydro Ottawa, and I'll be hosting the thinkenergy podcast. So here's today's big question. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the thinkenergy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings - even whole communities, you get something called 'district energy'. And it's not a new concept. A quick search will reveal that its origins can be traced back to the second century BC to the invention of the hypocaust heating systems that powered the hot water bath of the ancient Roman Empire. Famously a hot water distribution system in Chaudes-Aigues, in France, is regarded as the first real district heating system. It used geothermal energy to provide heat for about 30 houses in the 14th century, and the US Naval Academy in Annapolis began steam district heating in 1853. If you're like me, maybe you're wondering why modern civilization did not continue to use this efficient and environmentally sustainable technology more. There are some European countries such as Denmark, where district energy is mandated, but for the most part, it is largely gone the way of ancient Rome and public bathing. The latter is not such a bad thing in my mind, with more and more socially conscious citizens around the globe, district energy is once again seeing a surge in popularity and becoming a preferred method, thanks to its lower and energy efficient operating costs, reduced supply disruptions, and environmentally sound methods of heating and cooling buildings, municipalities and property owners are intrigued by this ancient alternative energy technology. So, here's today's big question: Is the world ready to embrace district energy as a viable means to power our communities? Is the nation's capital ready to have the first one planet zero carbon community district energy system in the country? Well, my guest today is the founding partner of the Thea partnership. One of Canada's most sustainable real estate development companies, as well as the president of Zibi Canada, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project. He's also an active investor and entrepreneur in both environmental, clean tech and real estate sector with active investments in solar energy, site remediation, and the beneficial reuse of waste. Dear listeners, please welcome Jeff Westeinde. Jeff, can we start by you telling us a bit about your background, the Zibi project and what drives your passion to build sustainable communities?
Jeff Westeinde 05:24
Well, so I guess my background, I always say I'm an entrepreneur. I'm an engineer by training, but entrepreneur by practice. So I've, I've had one, what I call real job in my career, I worked for a company for a little over a year, it quickly became apparent that I was unemployable. So I had to start my own business. And I've always been in the environmental sector. So I started I started my career as an environmental contractor cleaning up industrial messes and some of the wastes of the past. And as part of that, I would watch our clients the way they were cleaning up properties, and then what they would do to redevelop them. And I was pursuing trying to, you know, clean up the environment, make the planet a better place. And yet, so the practices we were using, were actually making it worse. We're trucking contaminated soils. You know, the time I lived in BC, we're picking up soil, putting it in a dump truck and hauling it across the Rocky Mountains into a landfill in Alberta. And nobody can tell me that's good for the environment. So very good. quickly decided that we shouldn't say very quickly but decided while I continue to move up the food chain, and start to buy contaminated properties and start to develop places and communities. And because we were purchasing contaminated properties, the commitment that we had was, let's do better than we've done before. So let's push the envelope about how can we live in a sustainable way? How can we ensure that what we're building today doesn't cause the problems that we're cleaning up on the very site for developing so that's maybe a bit of a background as to you know, why how I got into this and in my passion around, you know, leaving, like, I don't know if you're ever in the wilderness, but there's a rule, leave the campsite better than you found it. And I think that rule, that should be a planet wide rule, and it's historically as you know, as not being so.
Dan Seguin 07:12
Okay, Jeff, you're on the record saying that the way we build communities does not support health, happiness or the environment. What do you mean by that? And how does Zibi differentiate?
Jeff Westeinde 07:28
So, I might even be so bold as to say that, I would argue that most of our planning, especially in North America, is actually shortening the lifespan of our own citizens. And that's because we're so car reliant. We're so socially isolated in the way that we build. So think about a typical suburb. In a typical suburb, if you want to get up and, you know, go get a coffee, buy some milk, bring your kids to school, the very first thing you do is go hop in your car and drive. And that that leads to, you know, the stats that can predict the rate of diabetes, the rate of obesity, the rate of all sorts of other chronic diseases by the postal code you live in, was shocking. So, this car centric suburban lifestyle is not good for you. So that's the health side of it. The happiness side of it, I'll just point to one stat. And that's that you can use, there are statistics that say you can determine the level of happiness of somebody by how many of their neighbors they know by first name. Well, when you live in the suburbs, you know, you might know 2, 3, 4 neighbors, or those people whose kids are your age, or those guys you play hockey with, but you don't have the unexpected collisions as you're walking to the coffee shop or as you're bringing your kids to school. So again, that urban sprawl arguably leads to a lot of source of social isolation. And if something happens to an older person, you fall, you break a leg, even as a young person and you're inside your house. Similarly, you're not looking out your window and seeing people and waving at them and those types of things. So how we build our communities, I think is really important for health, happiness and obviously for environmental sustainability. And what we're doing at Zibi is making sure that you will not be car centric, that you do have these collisions with your neighbors. As you're walking around the neighborhood. We actually have social programming that, you know, we have snowshoe nights and that when Cirque du Soleil comes, we have a night that is just for the residents of Zibi that come, you know those kinds of things to make sure you feel like a part of that community.
Dan Seguin 09:49
How did you discover the one planet system? What can you tell us about it and your goal to build the first one in Canada?
Jeff Westeinde 10:00
Well, so we'll talk about how we discovered it first, and that's good. Myself and my business partners were behind the very first LEED Platinum buildings in Canada. So we built the first LEED Platinum building in BC, Alberta, Ontario, and in the country as a whole and the LEED Platinum building we built in Alberta - I was visiting one day A couple years after we'd built it, and LEED Platinum is literally the Platinum standard, the most sustainable in the lead system. And I watched one of the residents of his LEED Platinum condominium building drive a Hummer SUV into the parking garage, and said, you know, it's great that our building is sustainable, but we really have an impact and how the users are using the building and how they're, how they're living their lives. So we started scouring the planet, literally to say, Well, is there a system that would really impact not only how we build our buildings and how they operate at a point in time, but how do we engage the people, the users that are using those places? So one planet, we get rated on things like health and happiness and social engagement, along with all the other architectural and engineering features of a community. And the way one planet works: very simple. The name says it all we have to live as if we only have one planet. Most people when I say that look at me and sort of go, but we only do have one planet. And we need to remind them that if you live like a typical Canadian, you're using four planets of resources to sustain your unsustainable lifestyle, and Americans using five planets, Europeans using three planets, and all we're doing is stealing from future generations, and the developing world to sustain our unsustainable lifestyles. So one planet really is all about both environmental sustainability, like technical sustainability and social sustainability, with one planet worth of resources, and it's a very holistic program. Very audacious goals, we're going to talk about zero carbon. So as you know, Zibi is in the nation’s capital in Ottawa and Gatineau. You know, we are we are today we're going to be at plus 34 degrees. Six months from now we'll be at minus 34 degrees Celsius and to be zero carbon in this environment. It's the Holy Grail. So achieving one planet is not an easy thing to do very audacious. But that's where we said, No, that's the bar we need to hit, we need to again, leave our campsite better than we came to it.
Dan Seguin 12:35
I was fascinated that this method, 'district energy' dates back, like I think is 3000 or 4000 years to the time of the Roman Empire. What are some of the key benefits of the energy system you're implementing in your community? And why has it taken this long for folks to embrace it with it's being around for so long?
Jeff Westeinde 13:01
Well, like most technological breakthroughs, it is not the technology itself or even the concept itself that gets in the way, its people. So regulators, you know, if you look at how our grid works, say in Ontario, you cannot run a district electrical system. I can't, I couldn't produce energy and give it to my neighbor. Because we have a regulatory body that says you can't do it. And there are good reasons for that it was around safety and security and all those types of things. But we've ended up with all of these barriers, that that would prohibit the transportation and sale of energy. And, you know, I talked about electricity. But what's very interesting at Zibi - our district energy system is just hot and cold water. And there are no regulations currently in Ontario and Quebec, around moving hot and cold water. So that allowed us to start a district energy system. Answer so yeah. Again, the reason I would say you don't see more of them is the regulatory hurdles to implement the district energy system are enormous. However, the benefits are huge. And I'll use a very, you know, high level example that if you were to have a, you know, a Shopify data center, a good Canadian company, unlike Amazon, as a for instance. That is in constant cooling. So it's rejecting heating all the time. Right? And beside it, you have the Nordic spa, another great company that always needs heating, but needs to therefore be rejecting cooling. When you put those two side by side, and they're swapping energy back and forth. So your load is so much less. That's the concept of District energy is that by sharing and you know, a commercial building has different loads than a residential building has different loads than a retail building. By sharing those loads, they have different peaks, either for peak shades, you'd be you have less capital expenditure and you're more efficient. Why is it taking so long? It drives me crazy, but I really do think it's regulation is the key item why.
Dan Seguin 15:13
Aside from regulation, what have been the challenges you encountered bringing this technology to market in Canada? The sight of your one planet community alone, straddling Ontario and Quebec, is really unique. Tell us about the challenges and how your passion has gotten you through.
Jeff Westeinde 15:34
Yeah, I'm not sure how long this podcast is, but I could talk for a week about the challenges. Yeah, as you talked about, we do span the provincial border between Ontario and Quebec. You know, we jokingly say, both sides have a different word for everything. Because one speaks French one speaks English. Even the rule of law is different to one side of the other the legal system. So, you know, we need to repeat everything twice when we do this, but what I'll tell you is, I would say that the way that we've overcome what are just an enormous amount of challenges, I won't even get into what they all are, but it was it was crazy. Boy, when we overcome it was we shared our vision. And actually, I would say was our community's vision of saying, this is where our region started. Arguably, this is where, you know, the roots of our country started was on this site. And when we when we purchased the property was a fenced off locked off contaminated former industrial site that nobody had seen unless you worked at domtar. For probably 100 years, people didn't realize there's a waterfall in the middle of the city. What the community talked about in the vision that we had was no, we need to do something truly world class like something that people would come to our region and say Quebecers Ontarians, Canadians, look at the communities and the places that they create. And with that vision of being world class, we were fortunate that that politicians in the region, federal, municipal and provincial, all endorsed out the community endorse it. So when we started to bump up against bureaucracy and regulations, we were able to remind everybody that our commitment or contract to all of our stakeholders was, we're going to do some world class. Now world class, meaning different, and bureaucracies and regulations exist to enforce the same. So we were able to say, listen, you've got to empower, talk to the politicians, you've got to empower the bureaucrats who are paid to make sure that everybody does everything the same, to say, No, we've got to look at this one differently. We're not looking to do anything unsafe or unreasonable. But there's a better way and we've got to find it. And it was really that vision of world class and the endorsement that we got from all of the public stakeholders who said, yeah, we want to be world class. We don't want to just build another suburb of the City of Ottawa or Gatineau.
Dan Seguin 18:08
Now through a marketing lens, how did you position this alternative energy system that provides heating and cooling to your communities' new housing projects? What was the value proposition for prospective buyers and investors.
Jeff Westeinde 18:25
I think the key one, one of the lessons we've learned about sustainability and building sustainable buildings and building sustainable communities, is, most consumers don't, you know, while it's a nice to have being sustainable, it's not something that they're making a purchasing decision around. That's changing. I think more and more people are starting to look at that, but historically hasn't been important. So the key to sustainability is, we need to, we're going to allow you to be much more environmentally sustainable, socially sustainable, without any impact to your lifestyle. So when it comes to district heating and cooling, we said, listen, we're going to deliver you zero carbon district heating and cooling at the same market cost as a carbon based system, and you won't know. If you know you're going to turn your heat on, it's going to get hot, you're going to turn up your cooling on it's going to get cool, and you're not going to pay any more of the market. So that was that batten marketing. I mean, that's a no brainer to everybody that Okay, hold on, I get the exact same as I would get in a carbon based system but I'm zero carbon or more sustainable. That's a pretty easy sell at that point.
Dan Seguin 19:33
Okay, now I'd like to explore design aspects. District energy equipment inside a building occupies about one fifth of the area of conventional systems that boilers and chillers take up. I'm assuming this provides more flexibility in designing your buildings and community. By eliminating traditional HVAC systems, what building design options did this enable you to expand on?
Jeff Westeinde 20:06
There's some easy ones like if you think about rooftop patios, as a for instance, you know, if you have a rooftop patio beside a big chiller that's making a bunch of noise is not a great rooftop. So by being able to eliminate that equipment. You know, our rooftop patios are much nicer. But really as a place maker, as a developer, the key aspect for us was if you know if you take all of that mechanical and electrical distribution space, and you end up with instead real estate that you can use, it's another added benefit to saying that that district energy makes financial sense or can make financial sense. It wasn't easy to unlock that but can make financial sense. So, so yeah, it obviously the less constraints you have on a building, the more flexibility you have and district is one tool for that for sure.
Dan Seguin 21:06
Now, wondering if you could zero in on the energy distribution system that harnesses excess heat from the Kruger paper mill on the Ottawa River and the temporary thermal plant that was or is built to serve residents businesses in your community.
Jeff Westeinde 21:24
Sure, yeah. So are, you know, like talking about the benefits, or sorry, the rationale behind district that if you have different energy cycles between neighboring buildings, you can share that energy. Our district energy system is actually based on that very same principle that Kruger operates a tissue mill, directly across from Parliament Hill. They, it's a very efficient, very successful mill. But as part of that process, they bring in millions of litres of water a day, heated up to over 40 degrees Celsius. Use it several times in their papermaking process, but then discharge it into the Ottawa River at about 30 degrees Celsius, anywhere from 25 to 30. So what we're doing is saying listen, you're discharging the millions of liters of hot water into the Ottawa River. Why don't we strip that heat so then what we're doing is we're taking it from 25 to 30 degrees down to seven to 10 degrees and discharging out into the Ottawa. River in our heating system or in the heating season. So that's the concept behind it's very rudimentary engineering, it's strictly heat transfer between water. So, so pretty straightforward from that point of view. What the temporary plane that you speak about is our district energy system. That backbone heating system at Kruger is not yet built that's getting built this season. However, we have users in our buildings right now. So, we have temporary plants that are providing that but the infrastructure for the district the pipes in the streets and hot and cold water system is there. So those temporary plants are going to operate for about another year, after which will be on our permanent system.
Dan Seguin 23:06
In addition to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving energy resilience. Is it fair to say that district energy deliver economies of scale in areas with high population? What are some of the short and long term benefits for the owner and end user alike? And how do these factor into the government carbon reduction targets?
Jeff Westeinde 23:33
Well, yeah, so the short term is if you can be more efficient, so if you have dense populations with different energy cycles, so different peaks and whatnot, as we talked about earlier, you need to spend less capital because you're peaking is at a lower level. And you're sharing energy between so that your overall initial energy utilization from the grid or from the gas system is lower because you're sharing more so overall that drives efficiency. And at the end of the day efficiency then drives lower greenhouse gas emissions and ideally, lower and more stable costs because your energy inputs are a lower percentage of the overall district. So say in our case, you if we're harnessing heat from Kruger, there are no escalation in the cost of that heat. It is waste industrial heat that otherwise wouldn't go anywhere. Whereas if we're connected to the Ontario grid, as you know, you know, costs have escalated very significantly. So that energy input if that is our key input, our energy costs are going to be higher. So we're fortunate that again, the combination of we sit in Ontario and in Quebec, so we have two different electrical and two different gas grids. We have waste heat and our cooling is going to come largely from the Ottawa River. So we have low cost inputs with waste heat and Ottawa River cooling. And we have four different grids we can tap into for alternative and for other energy if need be. So that then allows us to control our costs. So again, just an example of how you can drive efficiency and provide more price stability, while at the same time reducing emissions.
Dan Seguin 25:22
Okay. Do alternative energy sources like district energy reduce exposure to fluctuating energy prices? How are the rates/cost determined for residents? Are they comparable to current rates? And are they stable?
Jeff Westeinde 25:41
Yeah, so, yes, not all district energy systems are the same. Obviously, it depends on what those inputs are. But in the case of the Zibi community utility, our district energy system, but then our key inputs are that waste industrial heat and cooling base from the Ottawa River, both of which obviously have are stable. There's there is no Yeah, well, I shouldn't say we have some commercial transactions that go on without but not like the grid that allows us to decrease our reliance on the grid for other inputs. So to answer the question on rates, yes, our rates are comparable to market. And we've actually indexed them to the price of Quebec hydroelectricity. And for anyone that understands electrical grids, I would suggest that in North America, Quebec is likely the most stable grid in all of North America. I would say that it is a national utility for the province of Quebec. And I would say, you know, all Canadians are very proud of our healthcare and if they ever tried to take it away, there'd be riots in the streets. I would suggest that if anybody tried to raise electrical rates in Quebec, similar to what's happened Ontario, there would be even bigger riots in the streets. So, you know, we are expecting that will allow us to provide really stable pricing over the long term to our, to our customers.
Dan Seguin 27:09
Now, how important was it to find a strategic partner like hydro Ottawa, that had more than 100 years of experience and a strong track record to create safe and reliable utility infrastructure?
Jeff Westeinde 27:24
The partnership with Hydro Ottawa was critical. And again, consumer acceptance of that of the district energy system. You know, if you think about reliability if you're a consumer at Zibi, and you said, Okay, well what happens if my heating or cooling goes off? Who do I call if I see, well, you know, I am Jeff and here's my cell phone, you know, call me up at the cottage and I'll see if I can help you. That's not exactly reassuring. When you say 'Well, you call Hydro Ottawa" and they will is not who I would normally, you know, they, they're, they're, you know, the relative reliability stats of Hydro Ottawa better than me, but it's 99.999 something percent uptime, you know, 24 hour response, etc., etc. So, being able to bring that credibility of a utility operator to our district was absolutely critical for overall consumer acceptance and I would even say regulatory acceptance. You know, when we started talking about listen we're going to be moving hot and cold water in the you know energy in the form of hot and cold water around the around our community all municipal officials provincially "Okay, let you know if they did you have experience with this?" when we say well, Hydro Ottawa is our partner, it is an automatic acceptance of all know, okay, you guys are credible we understand let's carry on. So having Hydro Ottawa as a partner has been truly exceptional for us to be able to pioneer this.
Dan Seguin 28:50
Jeff, in addition to district energy, what else is he planning to feature in terms of other advanced technology and innovation to achieve zero carbon living for the residents and tenants on site?
Jeff Westeinde 29:08
Yeah, again, I know your podcast is not that long so I could talk forever about this, but I'll give you some key examples. So you know, again, trying to decrease reliance on carbon based transportation systems. So you know, the personal vehicle. You know, having car sharing, having excellent access to transit, when you're looking at other things that have a carbon footprint, how we build our buildings, the components that go into our buildings, the materials that go into our buildings, some are very carbon intensive. So again, we're targeting those that aren't carbon intensive. Even things like if you look at logistics, you know, when you buy a head of lettuce at the at the grocery store, the carbon it took to get that lettuce to the grocery store is embedded in that very product. So having urban agriculture, you'll see urban gardens, we've got a couple on site now. So all sorts of areas where anywhere where we can target things that are that use carbon to get delivered to or to, as part of the system that we're in. We're looking at incrementally changing all of those things. And those increments when they add up, turn into some big numbers. So that's really our focus.
Dan Seguin 30:27
Jeff, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready to go? What is your favorite word?
Jeff Westeinde 30:36
Serendipity. Yeah, I love serendipity. Because good things happen when you're not paying attention.
Dan Seguin 30:42
What is one thing you can't live without?
Jeff Westeinde 30:46
That was an easy one, my wife, I could be dead without that!
Dan Seguin 30:52
What is something that challenges you?
Jeff Westeinde 30:54
The word "No." I'm not good at taking the word 'No', it's how Zibi exists.
Dan Seguin 31:00
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Jeff Westeinde 31:03
I'd love to be a shapeshifter, be able to get inside different systems, different beings and understand how and why they work. I have endless curiosity. So I think being a shapeshifter would be amazing.
Dan Seguin 31:15
If you had to turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?
Jeff Westeinde 31:21
First, I would say smarten up and stop doing dumb things. But no, I think the one thing I would say is listen, relax. You know, something that has come to ring true with me, the Roman philosopher Seneca said, you know, "luck happens when opportunity meets preparedness". And I've been very fortunate to be lucky. But there's only one thing I can control in there. I can't control luck, I can't control opportunity. All I can do is control preparedness. So get prepared and just relax, pay attention, good things will happen.
Dan Seguin 31:52
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Jeff Westeinde 31:57
I love the fact that public health - so right now, you know, as you know, we're in the middle of a covid pandemic - public health is leading that across our country. But here in Ottawa, it's Vera Etches, I love the fact that our public health officials are starting to be included in our urban planning policies. So in Ottawa, Vera Etches participated in that. So remember I said earlier, you know, the way we plan is shortening the lifespan of our citizens. Public health starting to get involved in that. I'm really hoping that there will be an influence where they'll say, "if we planned communities this way, then here are the health benefits of it. If we do it that way, here's the health benefits." That's not currently happening. So I find that really exciting. So, you know, we've been talking mostly about the Zibi project, which is one of the many things I do you know, if you go to Zibi.ca, then you can find more about Zibi and if you look to hello@zibi.ca anybody that wants to connect they're very good at getting people to me. I'm not much of a social media person, I do have a LinkedIn profile. I don't use it very often. But you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm good at responding to messages there as well.
Dan Seguin 32:41
Well, Jeff, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you and Zibi? How can they better connect? Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Jeff Westeinde 33:35
Well, this was fun, Dan, and thank you for your interest in Zibi and One Planet. That's fantastic.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The thinkenergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
In order to achieve Canada’s goal of being net zero by 2050, the future of energy will need to look a lot different than it does today. Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association shared how controlling our emissions is a large part of the process, taking into account affordability and reliability of the energy supply, and six recommendations outlined by the Ontario Energy Association in a recent report. Relive this episode as part of thinkenergy’s Summer Recharge!
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers.
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:04
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 00:07
And we'll be hosting the ThinkEnergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations within the energy sector
Rebecca Schwartz 00:26
We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcome the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners.
Dan Seguin 00:37
So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:43
This is the ThinkEnergy podcast.
Dan Seguin 00:50
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast and I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:55
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. In November 2020, the Government of Canada introduced a bill setting the stage to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Dan, how old will you be in 2050?
Dan Seguin 01:08
I don't know, Rebecca, you have to ask me then, when I wake up from my cryogenically frozen state along with Walt Disney, that's the plan.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:17
Okay, good to know
Dan Seguin 01:19
When you try and wrap your head around what it will take to get Canada to net zero by 2050, do you wonder what kind of energy transformation that will entail?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:30
I'm still thinking about what you said about being cryogenically frozen. But yes, I think it's going to be a massive undertaking and necessary one. Ontario currently produces 163 megatons of greenhouse gas emissions. And 76% of that is from emissions stemming from energy use.
Dan Seguin 01:51
Right. But when we talk about energy, we're not talking about electricity. We're talking about refined petroleum, primarily used for transportation and natural gas to heat our homes and buildings.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:05
That's right. Those two sectors, transportation and buildings make up 76% of the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, however, the electricity sector makes up only 16%. So here's today's big question. What are the keys to net zero success?
Dan Seguin 02:23
It's interesting, because, as you know, despite what the electricity sector in Ontario has achieved in terms of renewable energy, and curbing its greenhouse gas emissions, the conversation almost always still revolves around the electricity sector when it comes to climate change. Which brings us to today's show.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:45
Recently, the Ontario Energy Association released a white paper that reviewed various elements of the provinces energy system and the options available to achieve zero emissions by 2050.
Dan Seguin 02:57
Our guest today is Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:07
Vince, welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what the Ontario Energy Association does.
Vince Brescia 03:15
Thanks, Rebecca, and thanks for having me on the show. I'm the president and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association. I've been active in public policy work and research since the late 1980s, I guess, inside the government and in various capacities outside of the government, then I've been here at the OEA for the last five years and really enjoying it. Here's of who the OEA is we represent the the breadth of Ontario's energy industry. We have power producers of all the different fuel types, you know, whether that's nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, etc. We have demand response and storage. We have the large electricity distributors representing 75% of Ontario's customer base. We also have the natural gas distributors representing over 99% of Ontario's customers in terms of what we do the OEA conducts Public Policy Research and advocates on behalf of its members. And we also provide forums for education on Energy and Environment issues. So that's a quick snapshot of me and the OEA
Dan Seguin 04:27
Now Vince with respect to the government of Canada's goal to reach net zero emissions by 2050. What is the role of the Ontario Energy Association in this initiative?
Vince Brescia 04:40
Thanks. Yeah, reaching net zero by 2050 will be a massive undertaking, perhaps the largest infrastructure projects in our country's history. So our role at the OEA is going to be to leverage the expertise of our members and advise governments at all levels about how we can make this transition happen. while still maintaining the affordability and reliability of our energy supply, it's going to be a big challenge. And we're all going to need to work together to achieve this goal.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:08
So what kinds of major transformation will it take to achieve the government's goals?
Vince Brescia 05:14
I'll break it down in a couple of different ways. In Ontario, 76% of our emissions come from the energy we use. So reaching our goals will require a major transformation of our energy system. 23% of those emissions come from industrial processes and product use 10% of agriculture, percent based so that gives you the full spectrum of the emissions in Ontario. But because we're an Energy Association, we've focused on the energy component and the transformation required in the energy system. Or there are some overlaps. For example, we're hopeful some of those waste emissions can be turned into energy just as an example. But then turning to energy. Currently in Ontario 80% of the energy we use comes from fossil fuel sources. 48% is from petroleum primarily for transportation uses. Another 28% is from natural gas primarily to heat our homes and buildings. 16% comes from electricity, which is now a clean energy source. So altogether, achieving our goal is going to require us to transform 80% of our energy system. That's a big project. And the three big sources of emissions in Ontario are transportation, buildings and industry. Altogether, those account for almost 80% of our emissions. So we're going to have to swap up the fuels that we use in transportation, we're going to need to decarbonize our building heating systems. And many of our industries and businesses are going to have to adapt to new fuel sources. This gives you a sense of the scale of the challenge. But also with comes that comes with that is a large opportunity of the to go to go hand in hand.
Dan Seguin 06:56
2015 is 30 years away. But it's fair to say that Ontario's emissions have changed a lot in the past 30 years. Vince, can you give us a snapshot of how our energy use has changed since 1990. What sectors and provinces have improved the most?
Vince Brescia 07:16
In 2019. Just to give you a sense of where we're at Canada emitted 730 mega tons of ghgs of that Ontario represented 163 mega tons or 22% of the national total. Over time since 1990, Ontario's emissions have declined from 180 megatons to 163, which is a reduction of about 17 megatons or 9%. We still have another 19 megatons to go to meet our 2030 target of 30% below 2005 levels. That's not factoring in the recent national commitment by our Prime Minister to reduce emissions by 40 to 45%. By 2030. In terms of you asked about how you know how the provinces have, have compared and fared nationally, Ontario has made the largest largest progress nationally. That came primarily from the elimination of coal fired generation in the province. That one policy change resulted in a 31 mega ton reduction reduction in emissions from its peak in 2005. However, a lot of those emissions reductions in Ontario have been offset by increases in emissions from our transportation sector since 1990. Nationally, to give you a sense of how other provinces have done, you know, to the east of Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec together, have reduced emissions by 19 megatons in total since 2005. However, west of Ontario, the emissions profile has been rising. So altogether, nationally, our emissions have been flat since 2005. And if you look back to 1991, they're up from the 600 megatons to the 730 we're at now.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:57
Vince, the Ontario Energy Association outlines six recommendations in the report, can you walk us through what those are at a high level and why you believe they're the keys to netzero success,
Vince Brescia 09:09
I'll do a quick walk through. Our first recommendation is that we need to move as quickly as we can on transportation fuel switching. And that's because we have almost all of the technologies we need to affordably transform the sector and because transportation is our largest source of emissions. So that's what we need to tackle first, and we can do it affordably. Second is we need to start reducing emissions in our natural gas system is our second largest source of emissions. And if we get time later, we can talk a bit about some of the things we can do in that area. The third thing we're going to need to do is to plan to expand our electricity system, all this fuel switching. I've been talking about like for example in transportation, and we're going to need it in industry as well. We're going to need a lot more electricity and we're going to need every type of resource. We're going to need nuclear, hydro, wind, solar storage demand response transmission, you name it, we're going to need the whole package to meet the amount of electricity that's needed. Some people talk about a doubling or tripling of our electricity. Some, we're gonna need a lot more electricity as we transform our economy. The fourth thing that we recommended is that we start to accelerate accelerate hydrogen programs and pilots, we're gonna need a lot of hydrogen in our future, because there's certain types of industrial processes and activities, where it's not so easy to swap out the fossil fuels that we use. And hydrogen seems like a highly likely candidate, or hydrogen based fuels. But we have a bit of work to do to develop those and make them affordable for customers. So we need governments to lean in and help with pilot projects, and put their thumb on the scale, so to speak, to accelerate this economy and help build the infrastructure that we need to service the economy. Fifth recommendation we made is that there be comprehensive energy planning, not just electricity policy. In Ontario, we have tended to have a history of focusing just on the electricity system. And you've heard me mentioned earlier, it currently only accounts for 16% of our total energy use. We now now need to think about our whole energy system holistically. And make a detailed plan about what it's going to cost, what the most likely pathways are. The final recommendation is that we're going to need federal, provincial and municipal coordination. All three levels of governments are active in the space, all are having an impact and can have an impact. But we're not going to be successful if they're not coordinating their efforts, or if they're working at cross purposes, or fighting each other's or turning issues into political wedges, you know, against each other. We need to all work together because you know, as I mentioned earlier, this is a massive undertaking. And if we're going to be successful, we all need to work together in coordination. So that's a quick summary of our recommendations.
Dan Seguin 12:11
You note that in order for the transition to be successful in Ontario, careful attention needs to be paid to three core pillars that are the underpinning of the energy system. What are those?
Vince Brescia 12:24
Yeah, thanks for asking. Now we know from from experience that are three critical pillars that underpin public support for our energy system. The first is sustainability, which encompasses the net zero discussion we are having today. our energy system must be sustainable over the long term, and that includes ensuring that we utilize energy in a way that ensures the environmental sustainability of our communities, and of our planet. Of course, the two other pillars, though, are affordability, and reliability. We have recent experience in Ontario that significant increases in energy costs lead to very negative customer and voter reactions. We must keep our customers informed and supportive of the transition, or they will rebel against the effort. Finally, our modern economy is also very dependent upon reliable energy. customers expect and depend on energy being available when they need it. If we go too long, without energy to heat our homes or power to run our economy, or God forbid, keep our cell phones charged. It causes major disruption for all of us. So our transition must ensure we continue to provide an energy in the reliable fashion that our consumers have grown accustomed to,
Rebecca Schwartz 13:36
In your opinion, Vince, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieve the 2015 zero emission targets? For instance, are there any activities that we can't fully eliminate?
Vince Brescia 13:47
Yes, some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieving our goals will come from what some call the hard to abate sectors. These sectors are characterized by high material volumes, and finding alternative processes that are affordable, it's going to be a challenge for us. These are also some of our largest sources of emissions globally. And the big three are cement, steel and chemicals. Cement is one of the largest sources of global emission each tonne of cement produces about a half a tonne of carbon dioxide. And this has two main components. One is from the chemical reaction of turning limestone, which is calcium carbonate, and to lime, which releases co2. The other is from the energy component that we use to cook the limestone to over 1000 degrees Celsius, which is typically fossil fuels. So you have two elements, you have both an energy element and a chemical element that leads to large emissions from that sector. And that's going to be a challenge to decarbonize that sector. Steel is another one steel is the highest emitting industry in the world. It produces 3.5 Giga tons of co2 globally. Like cement, they're both energy In process admissions, we make primary steel out of iron ore, which is iron oxide, we add coal to the iron ore for its heat energy to essentially boil the you're kind of like we did we do for the cement, and for its chemical properties that allow us to strip off the oxygen atoms. This results in a chemical process where you end up with pure iron and co2 emissions. We produce steel in Ontario. And we also produce a lot of cars, which use a lot of steel and steel and a lot of other processes. So we're Ontario is going to have to tackle this one head on and it's going to be a challenge. The third big challenging areas, chemicals, petrochemicals and plastic production are the other large area of emissions globally and Ontario. There's a more diverse range of products here, but the largest one is ammonia, which we use for fertilizer in agriculture. And the next are ethylene and propylene, which are the most important ingredients and plastics. Again, there's going to be some difficulties and challenges and a lot of technology required to decarbonize those sectors.
Rebecca Schwartz 16:07
Let's talk about opportunities and leveraging technology and innovation. What's exciting you or giving you hope for the future?
Vince Brescia 16:14
There are some activities, we're going to need a lot of Innovation and Learning before we'll be able to eliminate emissions. According to the International Energy Agency, almost half the emissions cuts necessary for us to achieve net zero will come from technologies that are not in the marketplace yet. Some of the more exciting areas that are important and looked like they have significant potential, I would say are the following three hydrogen and hydrogen based fuels. governments around the world are developing hydrogen strategies. It looks to be very competitive globally, every major western country is working on a hydrogen strategy. And Ontario in Canada have some leading companies in this area like we have Enbridge Cummins hydrogenics, new flyer Ballard loop energy, planetary hydrogen, hydro energy, it's going to be a very exciting area is watching the hydrogen economy develop. That's what I'm excited about. The other one is energy storage, particularly long duration energy storage. We store lots of energy, now we have the technology. The costs are coming down fast. But what's really going to help us transform our economy is the ability to store energy for a long period of times and learn to do that affordably. There's lots of people looking at that and working on it, it's going to be a significant growth area. And I'm very excited about it. The third big one is is carbon capture utilization and storage, we are absolutely going to need carbon capture and storage if we're going to meet our netzero goals. One of the examples is cement, which I talked about earlier, I talked about this process where we boil the limestone and the chemical reaction leads to a bunch of emissions. The only thing I'm really hearing about from experts who know a lot more about this stuff than I do is that we're gonna need carbon capture to capture the carbon dioxide that comes from that cement. And cement. You know, as I mentioned, it's a very large global emissions producers. And that's just one example. There are lots of places where we're going to need carbon capture in our future to meet our goals. So there's a there's there's three areas that I'm excited about where I think we're going to see a lot of growth.
Dan Seguin 18:21
How important is energy affordability for Ontarians?
Vince Brescia 18:26
It's critically important. History has shown us that Ontarians react negatively to energy cost increase. If the government's Transition Plans a significant negative impact on energy and affordability. Families and businesses will rebel against the plan and the plan will get derailed. Oh, it is critically important. We have to keep it in mind.
Dan Seguin 18:45
What lessons can be learned from when Ontario's electricity rates increase to pay for renewable investments? And how can these lessons be applied to Canada's goal for 2050?
Vince Brescia 18:59
It's a great question. I'll give you my perspective. I think one important lesson we can learn from that experience is that sudden large spikes in energy costs are very upsetting to people and they draw lots of attention. They draw lots of political attention, lots of media attention. I think you can socialize the idea that costs may have to arise incrementally over time and get people used to the idea. However, most households don't pay much attention to public policy discussions and debates. They just look at their bill. They compare their last bill to this one, or this month's bill compared to this month last year to see how it's doing. So whatever plan we develop, if we can avoid sudden spikes, I think you can invoke you can avoid the negative public reactions, like the one we saw. That's what we can learn from that previous experience.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:47
Ontario's electricity system is one of the cleanest in the world. What does removing natural gas from the provinces supply mean for the reliability of the grid?
Vince Brescia 19:58
It's a great question. It's one that's getting discussed more. In the current climate, Ontario's Nash natural gas plants were built only recently to replace the reliability service offered by the coal plants we were shutting down. Once we had the capabilities of these natural gas plants in place, we were able to add a large volume of renewables to our system, resulting Ontario having one of the cleanest electricity systems in the world. These gas plants are like a backup to our electricity system. Most of the time the plants are not utilized much while we power the system with you know, nuclear, hydro, wind and solar and other other sources. That's why our system is so clean currently, because the plants are set seldom run at full capacity, so we get fewer emissions from them. However, when we have a large spike in demand on a really cool day, or a really hot day, these plants kick in to help maintain system reliability. They can be deployed on relatively short notice to meet urgent needs. Like the coal plants that they replace, these plants have access to something that is critically important for grid reliability, vast amounts of energy storage, this capability is not easy or affordable to replace. So we're going to need the services of these plants for some time before we're going to be able to replace them,
Rebecca Schwartz 21:12
can we replace natural gas to heat our homes and buildings and what will it take to make it happen? Vince,
Vince Brescia 21:19
we are going to need to maintain our gases to heat our homes and buildings for some time, we can change what goes into the system to make it cleaner and we can reduce the amount of energy we need from the system. I'll try and put it into perspective for you. The natural gas system currently provides about three times the peak energy of our electricity system. In other words, we would need to quadruple our current electricity system to meet the current peak heat demand if we wanted to transition to electric heat across Ontario. To give you a sense of the scale of that, if we were going to replace all of the gas system with electricity that would require about 24 nuclear generating stations. Or it would take 30 to 50,000 wind turbines paired with long duration energy storage, acquiring about 1.3 million acres for siting, you get a sense that this would be a pretty massive undertaking, and would probably be very expensive for customers. At the same time, we are going to have to expand our electricity system to deal with significant electrification and transportation, which we've talked about, and an industry which we've also talked about. So if we were to add the electrification of the natural gas system on top of that, that would likely not be achievable. So this informs the view that we should be looking at ways to decarbonize the natural gas system. And we're doing that now. Firstly, we've begun to blend renewable natural gas into our system, which takes methane from waste that was otherwise go into the atmosphere. Methane is a very potent greenhouse gas, making this a carbon negative activity. We're also blending green emissions free hydrogen into our gas system. Going forward, we'll be continuously exploring technological advances that allow us to increase the amount of that blend of hydrogen and renewable natural gas into our system. In addition, if we were to pair our current heating system with heat pumps, we can make a significant reduction in the amount of natural gas needed to heat our homes and buildings. On top of all of that, you know, research has shown us that we can affordably achieve significant reductions in the amount of natural gas use through building energy efficiency measures. So when you put all of those things together, you know, our view is that we can deeply decarbonize the natural gas system, and do that relatively affordability which reduces the scale relatively affordably as well and it reduces the scale of the electricity expansion that is going to be required. In Ontario for all these other activities we've talked about.
Dan Seguin 23:52
As we know from your report, refined petroleum makes up 48% of Ontario's energy use mostly for transportation. Are electric vehicles the answer to the transportation sectors greenhouse gas emissions problem here in Ontario.
Vince Brescia 24:10
Yes, they are a large part of the answer. Transportation as you mentioned, it's Ontario's largest source of emissions. passenger vehicles currently make up 57% of our transportation emissions, electric electrification of these passenger vehicles and a smaller short haul trucks and transit uses this can be done affordably with current technology, very exciting. I expect this transition to really accelerate and the next while for heavier and long haul transportation, we may need other solutions to be part of the mix. Long Haul and heavy transportation is less amenable to electrification because the batteries get too big and heavy and refueling time, you know adds significantly to cost for these uses. You know, we could be looking at learning compressed natural gas and renewable natural gas to to get to net zero most analysts seem to think that hydrogen fuel cells will be an important part of the long term substitution for heavy transportation. exciting part, as I've mentioned, we have a number of leading hydrogen companies in Canada and Ontario that are, that are making these these fuel cells. So it's also an economic opportunity for our province. And also, you know, you think of the materials for batteries and some of the the steel and inputs to the these vehicles that we're talking about, there's another economic opportunity there for Ontario. For some other transportations like ships and planes, we're just going to need alternative fuels. And again, the batteries be too heavy, you need a high energy density of the fuel. And we have, we may be looking at variants on hydrogen fuels like ammonia, that are very, very dense in energy in order to the fuel all those activities. And what we're going to do to try and figure out as a way to develop those supply chains affordably to set out those users.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:04
Alright, then, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Vince Brescia 26:08
All right,
Rebecca Schwartz 26:09
what is your favorite word?
Vince Brescia 26:11
Reason
Rebecca Schwartz 26:12
What is one thing you can't live without?
Vince Brescia 26:14
Air And Starbucks coffee.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:17
What is something that challenges you?
Vince Brescia 26:19
golf. I keep trying, but it keeps challenging me.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:22
If you could have one superpower events, what would it be?
Vince Brescia 26:26
Time Travel
Rebecca Schwartz 26:27
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?
Vince Brescia 26:32
Oh, with my new superpower, I'd say invest all your savings and Berkshire Hathaway and leave it there.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:38
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Vince Brescia 26:42
You know what I love the technological innovation that is taking place in our sector. I mean, we've been talking about it today. It's exciting. It's a very exciting time to be part of the sector. I'm learning every day about new technologies and processes. And I love it.
Dan Seguin 26:59
Well, Vince, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Vince Brescia 27:08
I did have a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me. This was great.
Dan Seguin 27:13
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
In our last episode, we spoke with Loren McDonald about the shift in social perception when it comes to adopting EVs across Canada. However, it’ll take more than just a social shift for this adoption to happen. This week we’re revisiting our conversation with Cara Clairman, President and CEO at Plug'nDrive—and a prominent leader in the EV space, who shared her unique perspective on Canada’s readiness to adopt EVs, barriers the country is facing, whether Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in EVolution, and more.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome to the summer rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy days of summer, we're bringing back some blasts from our podcast past. We'll be reintroducing some of our most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest. There's been a lot of talk about the future electrification of energy on the path to net zero. The episodes we've selected are very future focused with themes around Green Innovation, renewable energy, and our impact on the environment. So I hope you enjoy the summer rewind edition of today's episode. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back on August 15. To kick off another exciting season. Cheers. Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:30
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 01:33
And we'll be hosting the thinkenergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies and latest innovations within the energy sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:52
We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcomed the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners.
Dan Seguin 02:03
So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some coffee facets of this industry.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:09
This is the thinkenergy podcast.
Dan Seguin 02:12
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the thinkenergy podcast. And on today's episode, we'll tackle EV-lution of transportation. I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:28
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Hey, Dan, you have an electric vehicle,right?
Dan Seguin 02:32
I sure do.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:33
I'm curious. What's your experience been? Like? Would you recommend an EV for your one and only favorite co host?
Dan Seguin 02:39
Mm hmm. I would 100% Recommend one. I love my little EV. I've actually owned two. And now my wife has just ordered her very own. I have no regrets.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:54
That's good to know. Now, if I could just get a solid pay raise, I'll be able to afford one hint hint nudge nudge.
Dan Seguin 03:01
Hmm. I have some great news about that Rebecca. First. Both the Feds and some provinces have great incentive programs. With these rebates EVs are really much more affordable. In fact, as part of Canada's goal to help fight climate change, there are plans to make owning a zero emission vehicle more accessible than ever before, through addressing affordability and adequate infrastructure. Today's guests will have lots more to say about that.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:35
Oh, visions of having my very own EV are getting a little bit more clear. You have my attention go on.
Dan Seguin 03:41
In fact, the pressures on; the Government of Canada has mandated 100% of car and passenger truck Sales be zero emission by 2035. All kinds of measures will be required to support this transportation evolution. Everything from incentives for zero emission vehicles, to investments in infrastructure to partnerships with auto manufacturers are being pursued.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:06
Wow, that seems so soon. But that's exciting. There are so many more things I'd like to know when asked. So here's today's big questions. Are Canadians ready to embrace this relatively quick transition over to EVs? What are the barriers and do Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in the EV evolution?
Dan Seguin 04:26
Joining us today we have Cara Clairman, CEO and President at Plug'n Drive and a prominent leader in the EV space. She's here today to provide us with all of the answers. Cara, welcome to the show. Maybe you could start by telling us a bit about your organization and its mandate.
Cara Clairman 04:52
Well, thanks so much, Dan, for for inviting me to do this. Plug'n Drive is a not for profit. So we're out there trying to educate consumers on the environmental and economic benefits of switching to an electric car. And so most of our work revolves revolves around that outreach and education to help people make the switch.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:12
The Government of Canada has set what some might call an aggressive mandate for 100% of new light duty vehicle sales to be zero emissions by 2035. Why has Canada set this mandate? And how does it play into the larger picture of net zero by 2050.
Cara Clairman 05:27
So I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know that transportation is actually one of the largest emitting sectors not just here in Canada, but pretty much everywhere around the world. And in fact, in many provinces of Canada, transportation is the number one largest emitter larger than industry larger than buildings. And so we really can't achieve our climate goals if we don't tackle transportation. So of course, tackling transportation is a few, a few different things, not just EVs. But EV is a ready technology that's here that would really, really help in terms of reducing emissions from consumer vehicles, as well as now some medium and even heavy duty. And this opportunity is huge. Because if you just take Ontario, for example, you know, our number one emission source is transportation, and our electricity grid is already extremely clean. We're about 95% emission reduction if we switch to EVs, because our electricity grid here is already about 90 plus percent free of greenhouse gas emissions. And that's true in many provinces of Canada. So if you look at our electricity grid across the country, you have, you know, a number of provinces that are hydro only. So it's, you know, BC, Quebec, Manitoba. And so if you look across the country, we're already about 80% GHG, free pretty much. And so it's just such a perfect match with the with improving the emissions from transportation across Canada, we have an extremely clean energy grid. And if you think about our electricity, here in Ontario, it's mostly nuclear and hydro, a little bit of, of solar and wind, very small amount of natural gas. So we're already about only 5%, five to 8% fossil fuel on the grid. So plugging into our cars into that grid offers a huge emission reduction at about 90 to 95%. So as a long way of saying, you know, requiring new EV sales is a relatively easy way for the government to start making the transition for the transportation personal vehicle fleet, and would allow Canada actually to achieve the net zero by 2050, which it really can't do if it doesn't tackle transportation.
Dan Seguin 08:00
Now, Cara, are you able to expand on how Canada's zero emission vehicle mandates compare globally? Are we on par with other countries?
Cara Clairman 08:10
Well, I'll answer that question sort of in two parts. How we are now compared to the globe and other countries and how we will be right now I'd say we're a bit behind. Because we don't have an aggressive enough, EV set of EV policies, and we have quite a patchwork across the country in terms of provincial policies. And so our adoption rates are actually on the low side relative to a lot of other countries. I'd say we stand around 10th Right now, you know, in comparison to other countries that have, you know, better policies than we have. However, the policy of zero emission new sales, right, that's just new sales, we'll still have gas cars around for quite a while. zero emission, new sales by 2035. Is, is quite progressive. And I would say it's not the most aggressive policy, there are a few countries ahead of us, like Norway has, you know, a mandate for 2025. And there are a number of European countries that have set 2030. But 2035 is definitely in the pack, I would say in terms of of leadership in the top, you know, 10 or 15 countries. What we really need to do though, is make this a law. You know, right now, we just have a sort of a vague commitment to it and until it's legislated, it really doesn't have a lot of meaning.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:42
What are some of the main barriers to zero emission vehicle adoption?
Cara Clairman 09:47
Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago, and I think the results probably would hold true today as well. While asking people about about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle, and actually the number one barrier was price, which surprised us, we expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so we know that the upfront sticker price is is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called Find your EV match, which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and they're still in some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves.
Dan Seguin 11:40
Okay, Cara. How is your organization working to build consumer awareness and education to help remove consumer concerns around EVs?
Cara Clairman 11:50
Well, I mean, Dan, this is what we're doing every single day. You know, we've built our whole program around helping the consumer get over their concerns. And so we're quite accustomed to every single concern and question people have. And basically we do it in a couple of ways. We have our EV Discovery Center in Toronto, which is you know, a bricks and mortar facility, people can come learn all about EVs, no pressure to buy anything, and test drive the latest make some models. And we have found through our research that test drive is key to helping people get over their concerns. And that's been a bit of a challenge during COVID, although we are back to doing test drive. And then secondly, we have our mobile EV Discovery Center or our meet, which we take to smaller cities and towns all over to sort of bring the EV Discovery Center concept to them. And so that's a great opportunity for people to learn again, and a no pressure environment is fun. And then we have our roadshow, which you know, where we go out to even farther afield locations for a day or two days to give people that chance where they may not have any, for example, and EV dealers in their community. So we're really trying to reach everyone. And so that so those are the main things that we do. And I would just add the the other program that we have that we find is really helping consumers is our used TV program, which has a rebate attached to it and we're doing this online through webinars, but it's to help people understand who who had that idea. Oh, you know, I love TV, but I think it's just too expensive for me to help them understand that use these are a great opportunity affordable and available and in the webinar we run through a you know sort of everything you need to know to choose the used EV that's right for you. And then Plug'n Drive is offering $1,000 rebate to anyone who lives in Ontario. If you buy a used EV.
Dan Seguin 13:53
Wondering if you can tell us about Plug'n Drive's Electric Vehicle Discovery Center and what goes on there?
Cara Clairman 13:59
So the Discovery Center is as I said, at bricks and mortar facilities, a sort of imagined Science Center meets cars showroom, you want to see some photos of it, you could just check it out on plugndrive.ca. And the great thing there is it's you know, interactive fun, like I said, like a science center. People come just for fun to learn. And of course, we aren't selling cars. So people don't have that pressure that they feel they sometimes have when they go to a dealership. And then we have all the makes and models sitting right there for people to test drive. And that test drive is so key to helping someone get over their concerns. Because a lot of the times people have a preconceived notion about what an EV might be like, and they don't realize like how fun it is to drive and that these are really fantastic vehicles with great pickup. And it kinda just reminds people of the quality and the fun. And then we can run through with them how much money they're going to save and the emission reductions and our stats tell the story about 35% of the people after visiting the center, within six months have bought an electric car.
Rebecca Schwartz 15:07
How can Canadian businesses support the transition to electric vehicles? And how can they acquire access to the proper funding?
Cara Clairman 15:14
Yeah, we've started doing a lot of work with businesses. And what we find is, you know, number one, what they can do is look at workplace charging, we know that the home is the number one place, people want to charge about 80% of us plug in our cars at home at night, take advantage of low time of use prices. It's where it's convenient, all those reasons. But the second place people want to charge is that work. And actually, studies at UC California have shown that if someone sees a charger at work, and then talks to a colleague who has an EV at work, they're six times more likely to adopt an electric car. So one of the great things that a business can do is put in some workplace charging, and then also do some education around using that charging and help their employees get on board. And some businesses are even offering an incentive to their employees to consider an EV, especially companies that are looking at their own GHG reduction targets. And transportation might be one of the main emitters of their of their organization. So they can use those chargers for their own fleet. They can electrify their own fleet that way, and they can help their employees. So those are a couple of ways. Businesses can help support the transition. And then you've asked about access to funding there, there is some funding through enter can the program is called ZEVIP Zed E VIP where businesses can apply to get some funding for workplace type charging systems.
Dan Seguin 16:51
It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?
Cara Clairman 17:09
Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play. And I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi unit buildings being built in their in their territory, and that will ensure that the you know, rough in is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi unit. And we need to make it possible for these people to plug in. There's other roles they can play, for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know, their own EV policies for their, you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging, there's there's lots of ways that municipalities can help. And there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing, I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Rebecca Schwartz 18:32
All right, Cara, can you talk to us about Canada's electric highway? Can we actually drive our EVs coast to coast?
Cara Clairman 18:40
Yes, you can. It's still not that easy, I have to say. But the thing I always want to remind is that this is not a trip that many people are doing. You know, maybe some of us have done it once in our life, or, you know, it's the thing that happens very rarely. So it's not as critical. It's more of again, it's a nice to do. It's sort of a psychological thing. People think, oh, it's great if you can, it's still a challenge, but doable and getting easier. You know, it's something that I would say, no, it's not a trip I'm ever going to do and I mean, I drive my car just more locally. So I wouldn't want people to hesitate getting an EV because this isn't the easiest trip to make.
Dan Seguin 19:28
It seems that national sales of EVs are closing in on 4%. What are your recommendations to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles in Canada?
Cara Clairman 19:38
Well, there's just a whole bunch of things we need to do. So for example, right now in British Columbia, we're hovering around 10% of new sales, Quebec, close to 8%. Ontario, we're down at 2%. And so you can see that the variability in the different policies are leading to very different results. And so there's a couple of things, we need to make some consistency across Canada because what happens when you have certain provinces with really aggressive policies and certain policies, provinces without it, the vehicle supply goes to those provinces with the more aggressive policies. And then it's really hard for people, for example, in Ontario, to get vehicles, and so that ZEV mandate, or ZEV standard that the federal government is talking about is really important for making, you know, some more consistency across the whole country. So I'm very supportive of that. I'd also like to see some consistent building codes across the country, it seems ridiculous that in 2021, where we still have condos and apartment buildings being built with no potential for EV charging in the future, and it's so much more expensive to do a retrofit than to do it when you're building a building. So the building codes need to be updated, to make sure that the buildings are required to at least rough in for evey charging in the future. So that's another really, really important one. And then, you know, we, you know, I'd like to say that the time of needing incentives is over, it isn't over. We still do need incentives for the next couple of years. I think we're going to hit price parity in a few years time, and then we won't need them anymore. But but for now, I think we do. And because the environmental benefit is so large, I think it makes sense that governments continue to support it.
Dan Seguin 21:32
What about charging stations, is charging infrastructure rolling out at the pace to support the transition to 100%, zero emission vehicle sales by 2035.
Cara Clairman 21:44
Well, we do still have more work to do in the area of public charging, but again, I'm one of those people who doesn't think this is as critical to the rollout as some other things. You know, as an EV, driver, and Dan, you said, you're also an EV driver, we are charging at home, most of us are charging at home. And we are very occasionally using public charging. I only use public charging a few times a year. And I think I'm pretty typical on a road trip or work trip. And so you do need more infrastructure, we can't have single chargers out there. You know, we need to multiply those we need them to be in strategic locations. We need them to be in places where you can grab a bite to eat and use facilities and all that. So there's work to do, but I am not of the view that this is a primary barrier to evey adoption. Really, the infrastructure you need is at home and it's ready right now.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:44
Cara, can you tell us a bit about the sentiment among automotive manufacturers? Are they embracing the transition to EVs at all?
Cara Clairman 22:51
Well, we're certainly I mean, you really can't turn on your news or open your your apps, which is how most of us probably get our news these days without seeing a new announcements. So we certainly are seeing the commitment to EVs. In the future, where there's a bit of a struggle, I would say it's sort of right now. Right now in Canada supply is extremely low. It's quite difficult to get vehicles, all the manufacturers are ramping up. But that doesn't happen overnight. And so, you know, we need to do a bit more to get the vehicles in here right now. The exciting thing is, you know, here in Ontario, we're going to be making EVs in the next couple of years. And so the supply challenge will get fixed. And and then we're going to see, I think, you know, just massive changes, but for now the next year to two years, we definitely have a struggle to to bring in the vehicles. And we have to show to the automakers that Canada is a good place for evey adoption, because of course they send the vehicles where they think the best opportunity is to sell them.
Dan Seguin 23:55
Cara, just wondering what should consumers know about zero emissions vehicles today? How has technology evolved over the past few years? And are there funding opportunities for consumers looking to purchase one?
Cara Clairman 24:09
Well, of course, I want people to know that EVs are a fantastic option right now, what I hear from a lot of consumers, which which is helpful, is you know, yes EVs are the future, I'm sure that we're all going to be driving EVs. But what I think a lot of people don't realize is that they're totally ready for primetime right now. Fantastic quality, good range, everything you really need is already there. And of course, the fun and the super great pickup and all those things too. And so I think, you know, people shouldn't hesitate, that that when they're ready for a new car, this should be good. In terms of funding opportunities. I would say, you know, of course the federal government still has its $5,000 rebate available. And as we you know, in the election, we basically got the same government and they have committed to continue that. So we know that will continue. Some provinces have a provincial incentive that layers on top of that, unfortunately, we don't have that in Ontario right now, which is makes us a little bit of a laggard. Compared to other provinces, there are now six provinces with rebates, which makes it hard for Ontario to attract vehicle. So when people go looking for a vehicle, they're challenged to find one. What I would tell consumers that are looking for one and don't want to have to get on a waiting list is to look at the US market. There's a lot of great options in the US market right now. And of course, as I said, Plug'n Drive has $1,000 incentive to buy a used EV, and an extra $1,000 If you scrap an old gas car and buy a used EV so that's a great option. If you can't find the new vehicle that you're looking for.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:54
In your view, Cara, what does the future of Canada look like when it comes to zero emission vehicles?
Cara Clairman 26:00
Well, I think I think pretty much everyone has realized even the most Die Hard sort of auto analyst who really really hesitated on EVs. In terms of their reporting. I think even they have realized like this is coming, there's no stopping it. It's, it's the question mark is like how fast and I think groups like mine and other other EV sort of advocacy type groups are really it's all about how can we get this transition to happen faster, because if you agree that climate change is a crisis, we really can't wait for sort of a slow market transition, we need to do everything we can to speed it up. So that includes incentives, that includes building codes, that includes ZEV mandate policies, that includes all sorts of local initiatives to try to encourage people to speed it up. But I do feel very optimistic that you know, we are going to see a huge swing in the direction of EVs even by 2030.
Dan Seguin 27:03
Okay, Cara, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Cara Clairman 27:08
Okay, skip the skip the favorite word. I really didn't have one.
Dan Seguin 27:12
What is the one thing you can't live without?
Cara Clairman 27:16
Coffee!
Dan Seguin 27:17
What is something that challenges you?
Cara Clairman 27:19
Something that challenges me? Well, I mean, I guess the reality is in a nonprofit setting, you're always you're always having to raise money. And so that's always a challenge for anybody in the NGO sector. That's that's probably our biggest challenge.
Dan Seguin 27:35
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Cara Clairman 27:40
Well, I think I would love the teleportation oh my gosh, you know, I love EVs. But let's face it, there's still cars. And, you know, they still contribute to gridlock and traffic and all that. And it would just be so awesome to be able to just teleport to some other location.
Dan Seguin 27:58
Now, Cara, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?
Cara Clairman 28:05
I would tell her to do more public speaking. Who knew I would end up doing so much public speaking in my career, I really didn't get started in that till I was much older. And I feel like it's a useful skill for any job just to feel confident talking in front of other people, whether that's five people or 500 people. So I would definitely say get yourself in front of an audience and practice public speaking.
Dan Seguin 28:32
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Cara Clairman 28:38
Oh, my gosh, my sector is so fascinating. You know, it's funny because I come from the electricity sector as you do. And I think there's a lot of people with this idea. That's kind of an old, stodgy, boring sector. And so I find it so exciting that there's so many opportunities for innovation. And it's not just EV, it's storage, and renewables and there's just there's just so much of interest happening in the electricity sector. I hope young people are really looking at it for future career options.
Rebecca Schwartz 29:09
All right, Cara. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you had fun.
Cara Clairman 29:16
I did. Thank you so much for having me.
Dan Seguin 29:18
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The adoption of electric vehicles continues to rise in Canada, with many automakers reporting their EV stock is completely sold out. This shift in social perception from being EV-hesitant to embracing their benefits seems like a big win for society, but are we really ready for this boom in popularity? Loren McDonald of EVAdoption has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology, and he joins this episode of thinkenergy to share his thoughts.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Get ready to start your engines folks. We've got the EV evangelist on the program today to talk about the current state and future prospects of electric vehicles in North America. Lauren McDonald, known to his followers, as the EV evangelist, has been in the electric vehicle advocates since 1990.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:56
As our guest today, Loren will discuss why governments, businesses, the auto industry and the general public are or should be converting to this cleaner and more sustainable mode of transportation.
Dan Seguin 01:09
I think we can all foresee that the mass adoption of EVs is imminent, and something that is going to transform the auto industry, but also many, many other sectors including energy.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:24
Definitely. A lot has changed in the last few years when it comes to EVs. They were once viewed as an expensive novelty item and something you would buy and use only around the city as simply a secondary vehicle. But technology and attitudes have evolved.
Dan Seguin 01:41
You're so right, Rebecca. A few years ago, there weren't a lot of models to choose from, and there still seem to be uncertainty about their viability. But all that is changing fast. General Motors recently announced that by 2035, their entire fleet of vehicles will be entirely electric.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:05
And they're not the only ones. Nearly all major automotive companies are committing to electric vehicles, including legacy luxury brands. Jaguar is targeting 2030 to be fully electric. Bentley plans to only have electric and hybrid models by 2026, Mercedes Benz and Porsche also have 2030 in their strategic plans, and who knows, maybe by then I'll be able to afford one of them.
Dan Seguin 02:31
I love that you're such an optimist, Rebecca. Even more stunning is that many automakers are reporting that they are completely sold out of their existing EV stock and are now either taking orders or due to demand not taking orders for the next few years. So here is today's big question. Are we finally seeing a social change that will drive electric vehicles into the mainstream? If so, what is behind the gearshift? And are we really prepared to accelerate from zero to 60?
Rebecca Schwartz 03:15
Joining us from San Francisco Loren MacDonald of EVadoption.com is a lifelong advocate for the environment and has been analyzing EV and charging trends for decades. He's a thought leader, speaker and content marketer with a passion to help move the world to electric vehicles.
Dan Seguin 03:35
Welcome to the show, Loren. Let's start with you telling us a bit about EV adoption. When did you start it? And what was this goal?
Loren McDonald 03:46
Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much for having me. Excited to be on the thinkenergy podcast. So the derivation of EV adoption, so I was a lifelong marketer. I won't say how many but many, many decades as a as a marketing executive and marketing evangelist. And so I looked at sort of the EVs and where it was going with that kind of lens and context of it's really a marketing and behavioral economics question, right is of when will EVs cross the chasm into the mainstream if you're familiar with you know, the book and everything around crossing the chasm and so that's really what I saw was missing. You know, if you look at all of the the websites and everything like that, that were covering electric vehicles, it was all about the models and technical stuff. And most everybody was just pure EV advocates and sort of what I like to say sort of pejoratively fanboys right, and everything was going to be up into the right you know, on the on the chart and I'm like, actually, especially in America, you know, we have this thing called the middle of the country and pickups and you know, of late adopters and stuff. So I really wanted to solve and address that question of what are all going to be the hurdles, and the drivers of of sort of mass adoption of EVs. And so that was really sort of the point in goal of it. And it's, it's really taken off.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:21
In 2018, you published your three part series on the 24 factors that will affect the rate of EV adoption. Of course, a lot has happened in four years. So how does your list of factors stack up in 2022? Has the needle moved? Or are you still seeing the same issues?
05:40
Yeah, so I would say that, you know, pretty much all of the issues are still there, it's just a matter of scale, some of them have become sort of more or less critical or unimportant. And let's take a look at one, Rebecca is that if you look at range as an example, right, so, uh, you know, in 2011, sort of the first full year that the Nissan LEAF was available in America, the first version, it's 73 miles of range, you know, we'd sort of laugh at that today, you can now get a Nissan LEAF with 225 miles of range, I think it is in the lucid air, you know, it's 520 miles of range, so and then you sort of overlay that with almost every survey of consumers done in the last, you know, half dozen years around EVs, and will, you know, take them to consider an EV or buy an EV, that, you know, that typically around half or more people say 300 miles 300 US miles, right? Because there's a global audience, I'm always be clear on that. And we're actually by the end of this year, we're going to average probably around 285-290 miles of EVs. Right? So we're not quite at that 300 miles, and there's still several below it, and several above it that's, you know, skew that average. But, you know, the first thing is fundamentally, we're switching from range anxiety, to charger anxiety, right? What's what's happening is we're getting close to that magic 300 number. And so most people now are like, yeah, I can buy an EV and and, you know, driving to Grandma's or Disneyland or whatever it is. But can I charge? And how long is it going to take me to charge? And what are the charges work and those kinds of things? So I think that's sort of the sort of the first thing. The second thing I'd say that sort of new, if you will, is I don't know that we necessarily predicted sort of the supply chain issues. Right? And not just, you know, wiring harnesses that are critical to EVs and chips that are critical to EVs. But the latest one that's really been the hottest topic recently is battery, supply chain and minerals, is there going to be enough, you know, lithium and sort of the different minerals that go into it. So that's one that we didn't see. And, you know, both of you are probably familiar with a lot of those charts that showed the price parity, right, that that the price of batteries and EVS and as would come down and and get get close in the next few years with, with ice vehicles, as we like to call them. Internal Combustion Engine, this industry loves acronyms, as you guys know. And there's been some recent studies that are showing that actually, battery costs are going up, right. And so we may not hit price parity until, like, you know, late this decade and stuff. So I know that was a lot. So I'll sort of stop there. But those are some of the I think the key key differences that I'm seeing
Dan Seguin 08:49
What has been the most important or significant recent event, in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles.
09:00
The I would say there's sort of two things that are that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular in Canada as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so, the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck, is actually and it's being delivered now, the first deliveries they're starting, like this week of the electric version, is I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons right? But I think, to go mainstream this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck. This is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which, you know, we'll we'll talk a bit about about more later, I'm sure is, you know, the bi-directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, is making people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine, and so EVs are kind of having their moment right now because of that.
Loren McDonald 09:00
Okay, this next question is kind of fun, kind of Mad Libs style. I'm going to ask you to finish this sentence. You can't have electric vehicles without blank..?
11:03
Convenient access to reliable charging.
Dan Seguin 11:06
Loren, you were recently interviewed in USA Today about range anxiety due to the lack of EV charging infrastructure. What do you think is hindering a massive North American installation of EV stations? What's the biggest hurdle?
11:24
So I actually don't agree with that assumption. There is you know, as as you probably know, there's about seven and a half billion dollars from the federal government that's going into building out infrastructure there's a lot of publicly held EV charging networks. I literally talk to companies every day that are looking to get into the EV charging industry, I have never seen, you know, one of the my quotes in the USA Today articles was that it's the wild wild west right now, it's this is literally the modern version of 1849, right of the Gold Rush. And that there is so many companies and entrepreneurs and billions of dollars going in. Because this is probably the single biggest business opportunity in the last 100 years, the combination of EVs and EV charging infrastructure, we're fundamentally changing. The, you know, the not only the power train of transportation, but how they're refueled, right with moving from, you know, gas, liquid fuel to electric fuel, right. And so there is just an inordinate amount of energy and focus and money going to it. My concern is, is that we're spending it the wrong way, we're making a lot of a lot of decisions. And we'll talk about this when we talk about Canada in a little bit, but most of the money in the US is going to building out the DC fast charging highway corridor networks, right, which are needed to get the consumers comfortable that they can go from, you know, Seattle to you know, somewhere in Montana or whatever, and stop along the way. And we need that obviously, at some level because people like to take road trips, but the bigger challenges are, you know, how do people charge every day? Right. And you know, there's these you know, your you know, your EV drivers and owners and you know, this for most people, you know, 90 to 95% of your charging is done at home overnight while while you're asleep. Except for those like in America, my estimate is about 40% of US households do not have convenient access to charging overnight, they live in an apartment, they live in a condo, maybe they live in, you know, Manhattan, or Boston or downtown San Francisco and so they don't have a garage, they they're on street parking, right. So, you know, almost half of US households do not have what most of us have, which is you know, we we come home, we pull in the garage, plug in our car, close the garage door, wake up in the morning with a with a full tank, if you will, right. And so if you think about getting over that, you know getting crossing that chasm, getting people over their hurdle of understanding, charging and, and losing sort of fear around it. We have to we have to solve those problems at the same time, right. And so if you look at the money being spent, by the by the you know, the federal government and state government, not enough is going to workplace is going to you know, the multifamily issue, off street parking on street parking, those kinds of things. So I don't think I don't I think the biggest hurdle is that we're not actually solving some of the bigger problems where we tend to be overly focused on sort of those high the highway corridor DC fast charging challenge.
Dan Seguin 15:10
Pardon the pun, but who do you think should be leading the charge when it comes to charging infrastructures?
Loren McDonald 15:18
You know, that's the $7.5 billion question. I guess we might might say it's a tough one. And I don't I'll answer it several ways. The first is consumers, right. So the consumers and are sort of being left out of a lot of this, this discussion, right. And no offense to a lot of our elected officials, but and I'm just going to make up a number here. 99% of them don't own and drive EVs and they show up for the photo ops, but they actually don't know what they're talking about. Right. They literally don't, there was not going to pick on one, but I think it was our Secretary of Transportation or something. I forgot the secretary of I forget what her role. Anyway, she showed up for a photo op video. And, you know, she mentioned on mic, how do you plug this thing in? Right. Right. And so that's part of the challenge is, you know, going back to my earlier point is that, you know, what, will government, federal, state, local, have to play your role in this, right, because this is this massive transportation. And so we need government involvement for investment, for driving accountability and regulations and things like that, at the same time. You know, most governments are not known for getting things right, all the time. Right. And so I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the money is being spent on sort of the easy things and not solving sort of the the hard problems. So I think, you know, it's a collective thing we need, the automakers need to step up more, I mean, one of the things that, you know, is pretty common knowledge is that, you know, and I'm on my second Tesla, and, you know, if you drive a Tesla, charging is seamless, right? Because they designed the car, the charging, in for integration, the, the connector, they own, the networks and stuff. So it's that Apple seamless, closed loop. And so you don't even think about charging. If you own any other brand. It ain't exactly always the best experience, right. And so the automakers are not used to being part of the refueling process, right? Because they outsource it to the oil companies and the gas station operators and stuff. And so this idea that they need to be much more involved directly. In at least in the first couple of decades, right of building out the EV charging infrastructure in the grid, is, you know, they're sort of ret, many of them are reticent to doing it, but we're seeing it like Ford, as an example is getting very involved with Electrify America who they've partnered with, right. And so we are starting to see once they've seen a lot of the problems is that they are stepping up and investing more. GM has invested money, you know, with an EV to build out infrastructure and stuff, but it's, it's nowhere where it needs to be. And the last thing I would say is, I'll sort of throw something out of left field field here a little bit, is that none of the companies we've, we, you know, that are in this mix, including utilities and stuff, have any experience in the refueling business. The ones that do are convenience store chains, convenience stores. Most people don't know this, but like 99% of where people refuel their gas powered car is that convenience store chain, we used to call them gas stations, and then they started adding these little stores. And now they're convenience stores that also have gas pumps, right? They've sort of switched so now those those chains are in the business of selling coffee and cigarettes and beverages and sandwiches and hamburgers and you know, gourmet meals even and they understand that low margin business and so we're starting to see Circle K just announced today you know that they're they're launching their national network in the in the US and you know, 7/11 already announced it so I think we're gonna see and what I'm excited about is the companies that are actually consumer focused and understand how to sell refueling or are going to, you know, get get much more involved in this. And I think that'll help improve the customer experience.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:06
Curious to see if there's a wait and see game happening with customers and Evie technology in that tech is changing too quickly and they think a better model is coming and that they should wait. Is this thinking justified?
Loren McDonald 20:20
Yeah. I mean, that's sort of natural behavior. You know, you think about, you know, sort of other other technologies. I was one of those people back in March of 2010, that was down standing in line to pick up my Apple iPad. Right. And so, you know, I got it. Like I said, I immediately before even had one I got what the iPad was was all about, I understood it. And I talked to a lot of people that just like, I don't get it, you know, I've got a laptop, I've got a, you know, a smartphone, why? Why would I need this thing in the middle. And so I think kind of any new technologies like that, it's about the technology adoption curve, and it's about early adopters and the innovators. And so EVs are just the same, right? Like these, these early people that were like 12 years into the modern era of EVs, right? And the early people, they're okay, with only 200 miles of range. They're okay with not a great charging network and experience and things like that, right. But the main stream, so you know, the way I think about it, Rebecca, is, we can't worry about those late adopters, like we have this joke that we talked about in the industry that, like if you're on Twitter, and social media, there's always these these people are like, I'm not going to get an EV until an electric truck that can go 500 miles without stopping, and I'm pulling a boat uphill. Right. And, I mean, there literally are lots of people that say that they don't necessarily talk in that tone of voice. But you know, we can't worry about them, because they're not going to buy an EV until 2035 or 2040, or whatever. Anyway, what we have to worry about is, you know, is is like those suburban households, right, that are that are driving a Ford Explorer SUV taking their kids to soccer practice, and school and stuff, like there's no reason, there is literally no reason they shouldn't be driving an EV. Right. And so, but they're not right, so we have to focus on just convincing that sort of low hanging fruit that people that are of, you know, decent incomes, living in a suburban, you know, three, you know, suburban house with a three car garage have to 2.3 cars, like there is no excuse for them. So I think that just sort of the last thing, Rebecca is just that, you know, if you think about like, I don't know, if either of you have solar I you know, we actually went we did solar first before we got our electric car, right? And I've talked to a lot of neighbors, it's like, well, yeah, solar prices, they keep coming down, right? And it's sort of the same thing with with EVs, right? The costs, except for the you know, how we talked about earlier with the rising cost of batteries and stuff, but but EVs are definitely you know, they're the, the batteries are getting more efficient. So there's gonna be more range, there's greater, you know, things like bi directional charging that are coming out all of those things, but, you know, when do you when do you- how long do you wait, the same was solar, right, like, we could have waited another 10 years before we got solar. But, you know, at some point, you just, you know, you have to target the people that are that are ready. And so the other thing of last thing I would say on this is, is something that, you know, that we've done is we've leased our two Tesla's and and here's an interesting anecdote. So our first Tesla was the Model S 60. That had 210 miles of range. And three years later, we got a Tesla Model S 100 D that has 335 miles of range, and we lowered our lease payment and so I think one of the things Rebecca that we're gonna we're gonna see is is that a lot of people because of this sort of technology obsolescence so this idea that you know, every year there's going to be you know, greater autonomous driving technology in the car there's going to be better bi directional charging capability- the car will be able to charge faster, you know, more range, all that kind of stuff. So I think we're gonna probably see, not everyone but but some segment of the argument or some segment of the market you know, opting to lease because then they know every three years, I'll just get the latest and greatest thing. So I think that could be an interesting twist in the market.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:08
Now, what do you think customers are waiting for? Exactly? Does the technology already exist? And they're just holding on to some myth of EV from the past?
Loren McDonald 25:19
Yeah, I the latter is I think no, like, I don't think most consumers aren't aware of the really cool stuff that's coming, like the bidirectional you know charging and being able to do you know, vehicle to home and stuff like that. I mean, they're starting to hear about it with like, the F 150 and stuff. So and you know, we'll get into that in a few minutes. But I think it's really simple. You know, and not all consumers are the same, but I think what most of them want, is faster charging, right? Most consumers who don't own an EV assume that charging your EV should be sort of the same experience, as you know, refueling a gas car. And so most people are not necessarily expecting that five minutes of refueling time, but most are expecting to add, you know, two to 300 miles of range in, you know, 10 to 15 minutes and stuff. So I think that from a perception perspective, because as EV drivers, you know, and I know, you know, that Dan had said that's not necessarily what you need. But from a from a perception perspective, I think most consumers are waiting for that faster, superfast, high power charging.
Dan Seguin 26:38
Loren, are there more similarities or differences between Canada and their US, EV adoption? And their rollout? If so, what are they? Is either country getting it right?
Loren McDonald 26:54
Yeah, great, great question. So first, I'd say you know, California and California, US, and, and Canada are, are actually, you know, from a consumer, you know, mindset. And, you know, demographic, psychographic and things like that, I think, I think they're, they're fairly similar, right. And the automakers, I think, tend to look at both markets from, you know, the models, they design and focus on something pretty, pretty similar. So I think, you know, that the, which, which translates to sort of, they want the same things like we've been talking about, you know, more range, faster charging, and things like that. So I think that they're the similarities between sort of the consumers and the automakers and kind of ecosystem is pretty similar. And when you look at sort of where we at from adoption perspective, again, it's pretty similar. Canada was about 5%, in 2021, meaning, you know, one out of 20 new vehicles purchased were electric, and the US was just under 4.5%. So we're, you know, we're, we're pretty close. But if you took California out of that, you know, it drops down to like under 4%, and stuff like that. And so we're, you know, we're a little bit behind on that perspective. But I think, you know, if you think about, you know, and we touched on this, Dan, a few minutes ago, is that, that I think, you know, from the incentive perspective, I think the you know, sort of more of the sort of the point of sale rebate, and something is something that Canada got right. And we haven't gotten right here at the federal level. And the other thing is, and we touched on this is the the investment, the billions of dollars, we're investing in the EV charging infrastructure and how I talked about that a lot of it is focused on those highway corridors and DC fast charging, and the Canadian investment, I'll be it from a dollar perspective, much, much smaller, is is is much more focused on solving real problems. So there's components of it just to build an infrastructure workplace just to build out at apartment complexes and retail locations. And so I think it's a much more balanced approach. So I think Canada's really got those two things right, and that we haven't gotten right here in the US. But the other thing that I think that that both countries are probably getting wrong, or at least the US is there's this focus on EVs as as solving all the world's problems. And the reality is I've done the forecast in in 2030 by my latest forecast in the US 11% of the vehicles on the road will be either an EV or PHEV meaning you know, roughly 90% of the cars on the road are still going to be, you know, gas powered cars. And in fact, there will be more gas powered cars on the road in 2030 than there are today. And, you know, if our goal is to reduce greenhouse gases 50% by 2030, we actually have to look at a much more macro approach to this and BEVs -because I've done them just don't get us there. So we've we've got to look at everything from, I think, a bigger focus on plug in hybrids, because they have lower consumer adoption hurdles, right, you plug in overnight at 20-30 miles, and then you go on a road trip, you go on a road trip and fill up at the gas station, which which the infrastructure is already there, and you only do it a couple times a year, right. But most of the year, you're you're driving on electric, regular hybrids, right? Regular hybrids can actually reduce GHGs by half, right, because, you know, if you get the right, right hybrid, but the other thing that we're just not focused enough on is, is we have to reduce the what what we refer to as VMT, vehicle miles traveled literally by about half in order to stand a chance to get there. So we've got to focus on mass transit, we've got to get people out of cars, walking, biking, you know, ordering from e-commerce companies that use electric vans to deliver the products. So there's sort of less impact there and stuff. So you know, I think that's what probably both our governments are are missing is, is there's too much focus on BEVs as the silver bullet. And in fact, they are going to do nothing to reduce greenhouse gases in the next 10 years. That will slow the increase, but they won't actually reduce it.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:04
Are we finally seeing a social change that's driving electric vehicles into the mainstream? And what do you think is the main driver for people? Is it climate change, soaring gas prices? Maybe?
Loren McDonald 32:17
It's, you know, it's sort of, you know, Rebecca, it's a, it's a mix of depending on you know, the sort of the psychographic of the consumer, there's sort of get them motivated by different things, a lot of the early adopters have been motivated by, you know, I want to save the planet, I want to do, you know, I want to do something good, just like, you know, those of us that have gone solar, right. Although, actually I went solar, because that part of it was a side benefit, I actually wanted to reduce my utility bill, right. And so I think we're starting to see people motivated by that this idea of, you know, lower total cost of ownership, although I don't think most consumers actually get out their Excel spreadsheet, and do like a 10 year TCO analysis, like a fleet manager would. But I think increasingly, you know, especially with this correlation with gas prices, right now, that people more people are starting to go, oh, EVs aren't just faster, more fun. You know, help save the planet, for lack of a better term. But actually, I don't have to go to gas stations, and I can actually lower my my monthly fuel bill and stuff like that. So I think sort of the, you know, people are starting to get motivated by that. And that's why gas prices, I think, are so critical, especially in America, because they are forcing people to think about what they spend on fuel. And then they starting to understand Oh, you mean, I pay less with my electric car. And so I think I think that's going to start motivating people more and more, besides all the other sort of cool factors and then longer term, you know, which we'll get into as the whole bi directional charging aspect, but we're just not we're not there yet. For that to be a factor.
Dan Seguin 33:50
The trend towards beneficial electrification, getting rid of fossil fuels and replacing them with other forms of clean electricity to reduce emissions and energy costs includes the electrification of transportation, are local electric utility companies, the right partner, perhaps?
Loren McDonald 34:40
So, like a lot of my answers to that it's going to be a yes and a no. Utilities obviously have to play a critical role in the electrification of transportation since for most people, they are the provider of the electricity to charge your, your electric vehicle, unless you're, you know, completely off the grid. But that's, you know, a very tiny percentage of the population. So they're- the utilities are fundamentally critical to this. And, you know, the electrification of vehicles and electrification of everything, you know, we're moving away from gas stoves to, you know, electric stoves, we're moving away from gas powered leaf blowers to electric lawnmowers, and leaf blowers, etc. So this sort of broader electrification thing is actually the single biggest opportunity for growth for utilities, in probably, again, 100 years, right, because even though we have more devices, they've been getting more efficient, right? Every year, refrigerators, as an example, get more efficient and stuff. So even though we have more of these different, you know, the technology devices and stuff, they're actually using less less power and our lightbulbs, right. And so they're excited and onboard and are key to electrification. And, you know, they're excited because it is this growth opportunity. The problem with utilities is, is that they are utilities, they are in generally speaking, monopolies. And so they have, by and large, there are exceptions in certain states and markets. By and large, they don't have competition, and they are not customer focused, they don't know how to market they don't know how to build great customer experiences and educate and stuff. So they're, and they're also tend to be quasi government like slow moving entities, and they're risk averse, right? So they can be real challenges to this, right, and many of them, many of them, they're sort of scared, and they're scared about bi directional charging as an example, right. And many of them are scared about what this is going to do to their infrastructure costs, because now they're gonna have to beef up, you know, transformers and transmission and all this stuff to be able to, you know, reliably supply, you know, an entire block that all of a sudden has, you know, an EV, in every garage type of thing, right? So, they're, you know, I mean, I don't want to be overly negative towards utilities, they're some of my clients. But, you know, they just, there's this inertia of who they are their DNA. That is, is not ideal set up to be the fuel supplier to owners of EVs, if that makes sense. Loren, as a lifelong advocate for the environment, and in the last many decades for electric vehicles. What does success look like for you? What do you ultimately hoping will be achieved with your advocacy work? So this is easy, smarter decisions. I think, you know, and this is hopefully coming through so far and in the conversation, but I just think there's a lot of decisions and policies being made, that are flawed, and that this has become sort of what you know, what's exciting for me and one of the biggest opportunities is just to be data driven, right is to provide organizations with with data and hopefully accurate forecasts and stuff that help make better decisions about you know, how to scale EVs with consumers and and how to right size and get EV charging at the right, you know, right level and in the right use cases and stuff. So smarter decisions is really my hope and goal.
Dan Seguin 38:52
Now, Loren, I have a follow up question for you. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on the future of EVs? And do you feel more hopeful now than you did say in 2018?
Loren McDonald 39:08
So another one of these yes and no answer. So yes, I'm hopeful we might, you know, my my forecast is that so today in the end, I tend to focus just just on the US so today in the US, as I mentioned, in 2021, we had about a little under 4.5% EV sales share, meaning, you know, less than five out of 100 new vehicles purchased last year were either a BEV or a plug in hybrid. My forecast my sort of base level forecast is that we'll hit about 44% it by the end of 2030. Now a year ago, I was in I was at about 30%. And that's how fast things are changing, right because you know, a little over a year ago is an example, Ford was considered a non player in the EV space. And now they're considered perhaps the leader after Tesla, right? I mean, you could argue it's, you know, it's GM, or actually, we could, we could argue about that. But, you know, they're they've, they've gone from sort of and also ran to arguably headed towards being, you know, one of the leaders and definitely, you know, number two spot after Tesla, so a lot of things like that have just like overnight, changed things, and every automaker has, you know, got religion and is announcing, you know, dozens of, of, you know, new models and factories and stuff. So it's, it's, you know, so a year from now, I might be upping up and get again, but right now I'm at that 44%, which is, you know, think about it that's approaching half of the new vehicle sold in America at the end of 2030 would be electric. But as I mentioned, the sort of the downside of that is, is that with that would get us to only 11% of cars on the road being electric. Right? And, and, and if you're just looking if you remove PHEV's from that, you know, it's probably around 8%, or something like that. So, you know, the, the exciting part is, is that we're moving in the right direction direction, we're moving towards, you know, a large number and percentage of vehicles having no tailpipe emissions. On the other hand, gas cars are not going away for another 40 years. Right. And so it's just this, you know, you have, you know, almost 300 million gas powered car, you will have 300 million gas powered cars on the road in a few years. Right? Just look at the math, right? It takes decades to get get rid of all of them unless we did this massive, massive cash for for, you know, clunkers thing and just bought them all and crushed them all, which I don't think we're going to do.
Rebecca Schwartz 42:14
Okay, I asked this in another podcast, but we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think they'll become mainstream when regulatory or government barriers are lifted?
Loren McDonald 42:26
Yeah, so this is this is one of my my favorite questions and topics. This is to me, the game changer for electric vehicles versus, you know, ICE gas powered cars, right? We talked about you know, EVS being more fun to drive, faster, you know, less less maintenance, all those types of things, but but the one thing that EVs can do that gas powered cars cannot do is become what I call mobile storage, you know, energy devices, right? Energy vehicles, if you will, right and so this is where you know, we're years from this going mainstream Rebecca but but the fact is, like, I have this big Tesla sitting you know, 20 feet from me in the garage that's got 100 kilowatt hour battery, you know, and we drive the car to the supermarket it's a complete waste, right? I mean, it's just the only time we use that battery pack is when we go on a 500 mile road trip the rest of the time, you know, that capacity is is is actually in an inefficient and so the opportunity to leverage that you know, that power wall for you know, to use a brand name to use a battery storage device in your car to power your home to send it to the grid to reduce peak demand and help out the utility and when you know when it when it's hot and vehicle the building which you know, you specifically mentioned is one of my favorite areas because it provides a real ROI to companies so for the audiences not aware of and understands what vehicle the building is, it's where you as a company, incentivize your employees who drive electric vehicles to drive their EV to work park in the parking lot and then you have these bi directional chargers in the parking lot. They plug in and then they're gonna charge but let's say it's the summertime and it's really hot and it's the late afternoon. The employees agree to send extra power that they don't need, you know, they're gonna save enough to the to get back home. But but they send power from the EV basically, into the building. And so instead of that building, running that very expensive air conditioning in a hot summer afternoon to cool it down to 70 degrees or whatever. They're powering the air conditioners with, with with the power from the EVS and, you know, we refer to that as sort of flattening the, you know, the demand curve, right. And that can literally save that that company 10s of 1000s of dollars a year. You know, I was I was down at Lucid Motors a couple years ago, and talking to their CEO and about this, and he joked that he was going to buy a lot of his employees, the, you know, the $100,000, Lucid Air, just so that employees could could plug in and he could save what he thought was maybe a million dollars a year on their PGE, our local, you know, California utility bill a year, I think, you know, I'm not sure quite sure he'd saved a million dollars, but you but you get the idea is that, you know, you can actually use that, that power to cut costs. So I think that that ROI factor is is sort of a real game changer. And then the second thing from a consumer perspective, right, like the headlines right now are about like, you know, Texas again, right, of not having enough power, I was just listening to, you know, the radio this morning, and one of the top stories is about is are the utilities going to have enough power? You know, during during the hot summer, we have things like, you know, a lot of utilities that rely on hydropower, something probably close to your hearts there. The rivers are down, right? And so there's not as much electricity being generated from hydro right? And so you take all these sorts of trends, and, you know, consumers are looking at backup power. And so like one of the hottest things going right now, these backup natural gas generators, right? Well, better would be, you know, just when you need to tap into, you know, power in your EV if the power goes out for two hours or something like that, you can backup your house from the car. So I think that's, you know, Rebecca like the most exciting thing about EVs is that we will be rethinking them as just transportation devices as as becoming, you know, energy storage vehicles.
Dan Seguin 47:29
Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren, gloves off, go for it!
Loren McDonald 47:47
Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like how you charge a smartphone than how you fuel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, most consumers their perception is is that refueling recharging an EV should, is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with with your EV. So you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plug in, wake up, and it's charged. And, you know, the the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers when they drive a gas car, what do they do? They drive the car down to empty, quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to full. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third maybe actually even don't maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down and then you do it right. It sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time the refueling experience for an EV is is analogous to gas car is when you go on those road trips, right and those either so you know, a weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing but but otherwise, I think this is the single biggest education hurdle that we have is because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like experience to them. The light bulb goes oh yeah, this is like my Smartphone.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:01
Okay, Loren, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. And we've got some for you. Are you ready?
Loren McDonald 50:08
I am pumped if I can use that, that term and ready to go!
Rebecca Schwartz 50:14
What are you reading right now?
Loren McDonald 50:16
I'm reading a book called Hella Town by Michel sporter. And it's all about my hometown of Oakland, California.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:23
If you had a boat, what would you name it?
Loren McDonald 50:26
I'm gonna go by the Modest Mouse song title of Float On.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:31
Who is someone that you admire?
Loren McDonald 50:34
Benjamin Franklin. I love Ben Franklin.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:39
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Loren McDonald 50:43
The birth of my first daughter.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:46
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Loren McDonald 50:51
This is an easy one travel. I used to when I worked in the corporate world, I traveled around the world. And, you know, got to you know, see a lot of friends and make new ones. And although yes, I know that was not good for the planet being on on jets. But I really miss I really miss traveling the world and meeting people and seeing friends. That's been the biggest, biggest, the hardest part.
Rebecca Schwartz 51:21
Okay, what are you watching? Or rather binge watching on Netflix? And what's your favorite movie or TV show?
Loren McDonald 51:28
So I am actually not much of a TV guy. So a thing I'm binging on right now as I'm watching my Golden State Warriors in the NBA Playoffs. But I'll but I'll mention one show the one show that that I did watch. And I'm not sure if it was on Netflix or a different different network. That's how little I watch the things but I watched the series called Unbelievable. That was that was pretty amazing.
Dan Seguin 51:54
Lastly, Loren, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Loren McDonald 52:00
The most fascinating thing I think, right now is that when I got into this, the question was, you know, an if question. Right? It was, will EVs become the future, there was even you know, this idea that maybe fuel cell powered vehicles, were going to be the future. And we've really hit this point here in 2022, where there are very few people that are not convinced that EVs are the future. There's still some holdouts and stuff but but most everybody has transitioned from if, to now it's when and so and as a sort of somebody that's really focused on the, you know, the data behind that and behavioral economics I just love working with with clients and companies that are trying to understand how it's going to impact them from a negative perspective, but also more, more excitingly, what are the opportunities for them out of it?
Dan Seguin 53:01
Loren, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and your organization, how would they connect?
Loren McDonald 53:16
They can go to evadoption.com they can follow me on LinkedIn. I guess just just search on LinkedIn for Loren McDonald and look for the really handsome guy that has EV somewhere in his in his in his description or whatever. And I'm on Twitter, at Loren McDonald and also EVadoptiontweet.
Dan Seguin 53:43
And Loren, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers. I did it was it was a real honor. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that could offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive, emissions-heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean-energy goals. Justin Rangooni, Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how energy storage can help meet demand spikes, the importance of supporting wide-scale deployment of renewable energy sources, and much more.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today we're going to talk all things energy storage in Canada. We're welcoming back a guest we had on the show in 2020. To see what are some of the recent developments and insights in the energy storage industry that have occurred since our last discussion.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:51
Well, when I think of energy storage, I immediately think of batteries, you know, like Duracell, the Energizer Bunny, or even the battery pack in our cell phones- and mine that dies way too often. Honestly, it's pretty cool how we can just carry around these little capsules of energy anywhere we need or want.
Dan Seguin 01:09
It's actually a good comparison. But instead of charging your smartphone or powering your flashlight, energy storage is being leveraged on a whole other scale that could hold the key to many of our environmental and energy goals. According to urban insight, energy storage has been identified as the key to climate change mitigation. But globally, only 3 to 4% of electricity generated by utilities is being stored. They estimate that to limit global warming to below two celsius, energy storage capacity needs to triple overall by 2050.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:55
Recently, an article was published by Energy Storage Canada about our country's evolving electricity grid, and how energy storage and distributed energy resources are putting increasing expectations on our electricity grid to be more adaptable.
Dan Seguin 02:11
Power grids, by their very nature are designed for the fluctuation in electricy demand throughout the day by increasing and decreasing supply when necessary. Energy storage could offset peak electricity consumption periods like in the afternoon, and in early evening when people are returning from work or school. Not to mention our hot and humid summer days when everyone is running their air conditioning units.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:42
Storing energy and integrating it when it's needed into the system would prevent more expensive and potentially emission heavy infrastructure from being built.
Dan Seguin 02:52
So here's today's big question- what are ways countries like Canada can speed up its storage capacity to suit its demand? And are we on track to make it happen in time?
Rebecca Schwartz 03:09
Energy Storage Canada is the national voice for the energy storage industry. They are the only association that's dedicated to advancing energy storage in the country. Justin Rangooni, the Executive Director at Energy Storage Canada is here to talk about how Canada is and isn't charging up the energy storage revolution.
Dan Seguin 03:30
Nice to have you back, Justin. Let's dive in because I'm anxious to chat with you about what has changed within the energy storage industry here in Canada since we last spoke in back in November 2020. So let's kick this off with this question. What's been the most significant change in your industry since we last spoke in 2020?
Justin Rangooni 03:55
Thanks for the question. Great to be back in two years felt like not even that long ago. So it's really good. Good. Good. Good to chat again. So a lot has happened since we last chatted. So I think when we last spoke, it was all about talking about how at Energy Storage Canada we are trying to talk with decision makers in Ontario and the rest of Canada, about the benefits energy storage provide the system. Reliability, affordability, what have you and all the various services that energy storage can provide. So it's a matter of, of really educating decision makers. So flash fast forward, fast forward two years to today. It's more now, what's really changed is that the decision makers have now recognized that and now as they're doing their system planning and will focus in on Ontario specifically, is as they're talking about system planning and what is going to meet capacity needs and what's going to be used for any decarbonisation efforts. Energy storage is part of that conversation. It's part of that calculus. And this is exactly what we wanted to see and that's what- that's what's really changed. It's now part of that calculus in terms of what's going to happen next.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:03
How important is energy storage and supporting wide scale deployment of renewable energy resources so that Canada can meet its net-zero goals?
Justin Rangooni 05:11
I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about the old energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows electricity grid to inhale. And then when the sun's not blowing, or the winds, that winds not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and to charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:56
All right now, is there concern though, that energy storage will affect the grid? Like cause instability or create potential imbalances of supply? And is this maybe where energy storage and renewable energy intersect?
Justin Rangooni 06:09
Well, I think what energy storage does is solved some of those problems. What it does is, if it's part of the solution, the overall solution in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have, energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be it can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country, and of every size and of all the various technologies available, there's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss Army knife to make, make it work where it has to so we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is is that solution provider for the energy system.
Dan Seguin 06:47
Okay. In your opinion, Justin, what's impeding the wider adoption of energy storage across Canada's provinces and territories?
Justin Rangooni 06:57
So I think one of them, would it be just an- I think we talked about this two, almost two years ago. It's just a matter of for some systems, operators and governments in certain jurisdictions now, in terms of changing their mindset into away from traditional generation, traditional poles and wires, to see what energy storage and other DER types or non wire solutions can provide to the system. Credit to Ontario and Alberta. And we're seeing this a bit in Nova Scotia. And obviously, in Quebec, they're understanding the role now that energy storage and other non wires alternatives can provide. So they're developing roadmaps, they're reducing regulatory barriers, and they're creating the market mechanisms to really enable energy storage, I think other provinces across the country who are a little bit behind will start to follow suit, as well.
Dan Seguin 07:47
Okay, another question here. I think it's safe to say that the economics of storage is improving, and in some cases, has reached cost parity with conventional technology alternatives. Are the high upfront costs a factor that's discouraging more investors? Or is there something else?
Justin Rangooni 08:08
I wouldn't say it's- I think what's discouraging investors necessarily with would just be the certainty of where that, where the market mechanisms are going to be for energy storage. So in the US, you have, I think, almost a dozen states, who have a energy storage procurement or energy storage targets. So that's sending a signal to the to the sector and investors that we're looking for energy storage, we're looking for non wire alternatives to put on the grid. So what that's I think that's the biggest thing that others are looking for in Canada is, where's that certainty? Where's that? Where's the path forward for energy storage in the country? So I think in Ontario, we're starting to see that with their capacity needs that are coming up, people are looking at it and saying, okay, energy storage can definitely fill that role. So they're seeing the interest in that. So you're seeing a lot more interest in Ontario for the role of energy storage.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:03
All right, Justin, if you had to break it down super quick for someone, what would be your elevator pitch for why we should integrate energy storage into a broader system framework? So if you had one minute to convince them that energy storage is the missing link to accelerating our path, to net-zero, what would you say?
Justin Rangooni 09:20
So I won't do the analogy again. But if it was the first time of the elevator, that first I would use the inhaling/exhaling analogy. But what I would say quickly is simply that energy storage is a solution provider. It provides different solutions depending on what the need is. If you need it for reliability reasons to make sure that the lights are going to be on energy storage can play that role by saving that energy when it's needed. Storing the energy when it's when it's when it's needed, and then issuing it and then also for affordability reasons to defer investments and new generation or new poles and wires. There's a lot of different reasons for energy storage, but again, I think that analogy is the best one I've seen so far.
Dan Seguin 10:04
Some might not like me for this next one. But here goes Justin, how can energy storage help meet demand spikes, and also reduce or even eliminate the need to maintain or build new gas plants, which are among the dirtiest generators on the grid here in Ontario.
Justin Rangooni 10:27
So where energy storage can play that critical role is storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or unnecessary or maybe importing it, or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can step store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, and energy storage can, you know use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for a future use. And that's, that's why we're so excited about energy storage.
Dan Seguin 11:12
Now, in an article you wrote in 2021, you reference that the Independent Electricity System Operator was undertaking a study on the potential phase out of Canada's gas generation. You noted that energy storage Canada was keen to participate in the study. Has there been any movement? What are you hoping to achieve?
Justin Rangooni 11:39
So what happens is we last talked is the IESO did kind of, I would call it a preliminary report, on their decarbonisation efforts or the phase out of natural gas. And a lot of stakeholders took issue with it because of the some of the assumptions that were made. And even the Minister of Energy, looked at it and said, you know what, go back and develop the path. So we are eager to see what that path will be now coming out in November, I think the report is due from the IESO. And what we would like to see is a various, a long range of assumptions and scenarios that really get us to that proper path that is cost effective and reliable. The first path kind of just used one scenario. But I think there are very much very different paths to achiev net-Zero in Ontario and in Canada, and what energy storage can provide because there's different technologies because it could be short duration, or long duration, could be pumped storage or flywheels, or batteries, or what have you. And it can be in different locations, throughout the province or throughout the country. There are many different pathways to get there. So that's what we would really like to see in that report. Show us all the different scenarios; show us the cost effectiveness so you have a wide menu, a variety of a menu to choose from. And we think it can be done. In fact, energy storage, Canada will be issuing a report, working on a report right now, that will be done later this year, with regards to how much energy storage will be required in Canada to achieve net-zero by 2035, that the federal government targeted. Because we're hearing a lot of other numbers of saying how we're gonna get there. So we're trying to say as well how much energy storage is going to be required to make that happened. So we look forward to sharing that report with you in the next few months.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:22
All right, Justin, are you seeing policy or regulatory movement at the municipal, provincial or federal level, to help facilitate energy storage into future plans? And could you talk a bit to what's encouraging you and maybe touch a little on what's discouraging you?
Justin Rangooni 13:38
So I would say encouraging is the example set out in Ontario and Alberta. They they took a concerted effort credit to the Alberta System Operating and credit to the Ontario's IESO for developing a roadmap to say, okay, we know energy storage is coming. So what do we have to do to get our house in order with market rules with regulatory rules with system tool upgrades? So they've really set out a nice path? Obviously, maybe discouraging, we would say and Ontario is okay, you're not, maybe you can get a little faster in terms of really that opportunity of value stacking all the all the values that energy storage can provide, we probably want to see that timeline accelerated a little bit, but at least it's out there. We and we hope that this could serve as a good signpost for other provinces to follow. And we're seeing that hopefully in Nova Scotia, and hopefully maybe we'll see that in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, what have you trying to say? What is that roadmap to really enabling energy storage because we know it's coming.
Dan Seguin 13:38
Now, let's tackle a catchy subject. Cost. How does energy storage protect provinces, cities, utilities and customers against rising demand and energy costs?
Justin Rangooni 14:50
So I would probably hark back to our report that we did in the summer of 2020 by Power Advisory for Ontario. We looked at and said well, how if there were at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, what would be the impact for ratepayers. And what the power advisory report concluded was with with at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, it would save ratepayers approximately $2 billion over the over the next decade. And what they looked at was ways that it was saving ratepayers money. It was deferring invest poles, a traditional poles and wires investments, maybe they don't have to be made right now you can defer some of those. Avoidance or deferral of new power generation, which is costly. So it's, it's those mainly two and again, it's also price, perhaps arbitrage, too where we're seeing, with some larger commercial industrial customers, who have behind the meter storage installed, and are avoiding the high demand times by using the energy storage and it's stored behind the meter to save, save on cost as well. So that's where we're looking at the really the what, what energy storage can provide in terms of affordability issues. And as you mentioned before, the costs of energy storage are going down. And we're talking about batteries, we're seeing a continued decline, and forecasts are showing a decline continuing for the rest of the decade. But again, as with other technologies of energy storage technology, it's all a matter of when do you want to- where do you want to use it and what benefit it's providing?
Dan Seguin 16:19
Justin, is it fair to say that most renewable energy, like wind and solar, may require daily energy storage to maximize their benefits and secure against seasonal shortfalls in Canada, when the wind doesn't blow as much like in the summer, and the sun doesn't shine as much like in the winter?
Justin Rangooni 16:41
So yes, I think energy storage could definitely optimize that variable, renewable generation. And depending on what the technology you're looking at, it could even be done, you know, hourly too if you have a certain batteries are co-located, or are very close to those the wind and solar assets as well. And again, energy storage also provides that benefit to all forms of generation, it's a matter of storing what's on the grid and the system operators using the tool that energy storage provides to say, well, we don't need all this power that all our generation assets are producing. So we're going to utilize this battery, these energy storage resources, we have to store that excess energy, and then to release it when it's required. So again, if why we're so excited energy storage, because we're just talking about batteries, there's batteries, there's pump storage, there's flywheels, or compressed air, there's thermal storage, there's a lot of possibilities. And they all can play a critical role in optimizing wind and solar assets, and hydro and nuclear assets as well.
Dan Seguin 17:42
Now I have a follow up question for you, Justin. What's your prediction based on the current trajectory on how much of all energy use in Canada's 2050 future could be stored at any given time? And why is that important?
Justin Rangooni 18:00
So it's probably hard to forecast that number. Now, our report will put a number on what is the minimum to achieve net-zero by 2035. So we will have a number, a national number and broken down by the provinces as well, to see what that number is. But really, it all depends on what the system planner is using the energy storage for. Now, you could have big giant, big energy storage projects, that could be in the almost 1000 megawatts, all the way down to smaller energy storage projects with or in the single digit megawatts or less. So it really depends on what the system planner wants to utilize those energy storage projects for. So it's really tough to tell, I think an example would be right now in California, they have about 3000 megawatts of grid scale connected storage, their peak demand is almost 30,000. So 10% in California, right now, is energy storage, meeting that peak demand. And that's only growing. So again, I think it all depends on what the system planner is looking and the jurisdiction and a lot of factors. But as we're seeing in California, energy storage is playing an increasing critical role to meeting energy needs.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:07
Okay, so we've talked a lot about the many applications for energy storage beyond just cost reduction. And I'll go ahead to name a few just now. So we've talked about battery storage, increasing capacity, improving reliability, supporting renewable integration and deferring transmission upgrades. So because of its versatility, and its ability, battery storage, some might say it could be the true Swiss Army knife of grid solutions. What would you tell our audience is the best feature of battery storage? Or maybe what's most impressive secret feature that others aren't aware of?
Justin Rangooni 19:44
That's a great question. So I'm gonna do my little public service announcement. And I do this for a lot of decision makers to and others. Well, we alked about energy storage, we should talk about more than just batteries. I know it's easy just to say battery storage and a lot. A lot of a lot of people do that and it's understandable. But again, there's a lot A lot of different energy storage technologies, Energy Storage Canada, we're technology agnostic. So we represent batteries and all the different chemistries of battery, not just lithium there's zinc and there's other chemistries. We also talk about pumped storage and flywheels, thermal storage, mechanical storage, what name you there's, there's a lot of different energy storage technologies coming. So maybe that's part of the secret is that there's so when we talk about energy storage, is that there's so many different technologies there that can be used of different sizes, of different characteristics. And one thing I would say a bit of a secret, probably, that is a secret, but just something we should all remember is the portability of energy storage, this can be put anywhere, depending on the technology, it doesn't have to necessarily be in a certain part of the province or the country that has a good natural resource. It can be put anywhere that the system planner needs it. So as we're talking about even utilities, on the utility distribution side, they'll look at their distribution network and say well, where can energy storage work here? And then obviously, the IESO is looking at it from the grander scheme, the prvoincial scale, and saying well, where does it make sense? And so that's the, that's probably the best kept secret of energy storage, and it can be put anywhere.
Dan Seguin 21:10
Having gone through two years of pandemic, what has been the impact of this pandemic, on the energy storage industry? Have there been opportunities that perhaps you weren't aware of before?
Justin Rangooni 21:26
That's an interesting topic. I think, what, obviously, the pandemic has been tough on all sectors with supply chain issues, so that that energy storage is no different from what we're seeing in other jurisdictions as well. But what I think it has allowed system operators and governments to do is to think of other ways how to decarbonize how to provide reliability service, how to make the system more affordable, and has allowed them to start thinking a bit about more innovative solutions, like energy storage, and other non wires alternatives. So the pandemic has allowed that opportunity for more positive thinking, and we're starting to see that in other in Ontario, and and throughout Canada.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:06
All right, we would love to hear your thoughts on vehicle to grid and vehicle to building systems. And if you think that they'll become mainstream when regulatory barriers are lifted.
Justin Rangooni 22:14
So with that one, I think we've worked with some great partners like Plug'n Drive, and others, and there's a few of our members like Peak Power, who are very interested in the vehicle to grid initiative. And where we see a lot of potential obviously, is, with the increased electrification, they hope we'll have a lot more EVs on the road, is we look at that and say, well, your electric vehicle could be your battery for your home, it could be a battery for the local distribution company, if they wanted to utilize it. So in terms of your question of vehicle to grid and what it can do, I think sky's the limit in terms of the innovation, that this could be a real game changer in terms of providing needed electricity when it's required or properly optimizing it. So it's great that people are- utilities and and others are looking at electric vehicles more than just for transportation. It can also power your home, it could help power the distribution network. It's really exciting possibilities.
Dan Seguin 23:15
Okay, here's a bonus round question for customers. What's something you want the average electricity customer or homeowner to know about energy storage? Is there a place for them at the table for them to adopt this tech and help reduce climate change or their own emissions now? What are your recommendations?
Justin Rangooni 23:40
Great follow up to the last question. I think in the next- the short term answer to that one is to look to electric vehicles. That is your best way as the average homeowner in terms of your own decarbonisation efforts, really, is to get that electric vehicle. And again, with vehicle to grid, there could be a lot of possibilities that can even be more decarbonizing to the grid as well. So I would say to the average homeowner, the car battery electric vehicle can be a storage device for you to be a storage device for your utility, a lot of possibilities. So that I would say and then maybe further on in a few more years time, I think you could start seeing some residential energy storage of devices in the home as well. Again, playing with the the electric vehicle, you have in the car, maybe you have some solar panels on your roof, or again, the utility is seeing that the residential energy storage is a great tool for the utility to use. Again, there's a lot of possibilities down the road for the average homeowner but I'd say you know, electric vehicles are here. There's a lot more I would say go pop, go look at Plug'n Drive's website, go look at your local utility, talk to them, and go to your car dealership and see what electric vehicles are out there.
Rebecca Schwartz 24:53
All right, Justin, as you know, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?
Justin Rangooni 25:01
Okay, let's go.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:02
What are you reading right now?
Justin Rangooni 25:04
Oh, okay, so I am reading the fiery trial about Abraham Lincoln's evolution of his thinking on slavery, pre Civil War and during Civil War, and obviously afterwards a bit.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:18
If you had to name a boat, if you had one, what would you name it?
Justin Rangooni 25:21
That's a hard one. The only thing that comes to my mind is Boaty McBoatface. That's all like that's, that's it.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:27
Who is someone that you admire?
Justin Rangooni 25:30
So I should say my parents by now I'm talking to Hydro Ottawa. So my answer will be Bryce Conrad.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:35
What's the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Justin Rangooni 25:38
Oh, I would say the Toronto Raptors winning the NBA championship. I didn't, I didn't think that would have happened in my lifetime. So it was really magical to see and hopefully we can see it again.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:48
What's been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Justin Rangooni 25:52
Oh, thebandwidth with the kids were when they were home, with the spouse being home and working. Yeah, it was the bandwidth it was that was that was a challenge.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:02
Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie right now?
Justin Rangooni 26:07
Oh, I think we watched Superstore and The Fffice on Netflix on perpetual, perpetual loop. It's a nice comfort watch.
Dan Seguin 26:15
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Justin Rangooni 26:21
Well, that's a great, great question to wrap it up on because I think it's this is an exciting sector to be in. I think we're catching the wave right now on some really big possibilities and opportunities for the sector. Because we're energy storage we can provide that value on the utility scale. And through to the distribution side and behind the meter to the residential. I think energy storage is really starting to take off and really becoming seen as a mainstream resource and a tool in our- in Canada's electricity system. So that's what's really exciting and really excited to see what the rest of the decade is going to bring for energy storage.
Dan Seguin 26:57
Well, Justin, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If your listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Justin Rangooni 27:10
They can go on to energystoragecanada.org. We have a refreshed website, they can take a look and and find out some more information see all the work that we're doing see a page of our growing membership list, which includes Hydro Ottawa. Also they can attend our conference in October, it will be in person fingers crossed. Downtown Toronto is what we call it the only national conference focused on energy storage. So it's something if you're interested in storage. You don't want to miss it.
Dan Seguin 27:41
Again, Justin, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had lots of fun.
Justin Rangooni 27:46
I always do. This is fantastic. Thank you so much for having me back. Thank you, Daniel.
Dan Seguin 27:50
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On today's show, we're going to talk about buildings and the critical role they play in our country's transition to a lower carbon, and eventual net zero future. They're where we live, work and play. But buildings are responsible for 40% of global energy consumption, and about a third of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:00
That number is pretty significant. But becoming net zero is going to take money, and new technology, new infrastructure, and a complete overhaul of how we construct, heat, and cool our buildings.
Dan Seguin 01:11
As we talked about on the show, many times technology is evolving at an accelerated rate. So much so that even today's most highly evolved smart buildings may be considered just the norm or standard a decade from now. So when is the right time for property developers and owners to jump in and lower their emissions and environmental impact?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:37
The majority of commercial buildings we see now are more than 30 years old. So, there's a desperate need for energy efficient retrofits and upgrades. A lot goes into retrofitting an existing building to make it smart and attractive, comfortable, sustainable, and of course cost efficient. It involves much more than just updating your aging HVAC or stepping up the lighting by putting in a few fancy things you may have bought off Amazon.
Dan Seguin 02:03
So, here's today's big question. What kind of planning needs to take place today to help future proof or new and existing commercial buildings, so they can lower their carbon footprint and eventually achieve their net zero target later?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:21
Our special guest today is Terry young. He's the Vice President of Operations at KRP Properties. Terry manages a portfolio of more than 30 commercial properties in Ottawa's high tech hub in Kanata. Welcome to the show.
Dan Seguin 02:35
Hey, Terry, how are you? We know that buildings contribute 1/3 of greenhouse gas emissions globally. What are some of the steps that developers and property owners should consider or be aware of when it comes to future proofing their buildings and why?
Terry Young 02:52
So, I think one thing is understanding the current state of your building. Many of us, we've run pieces of real estate, but we really don't know how it's running or where it sits, or how efficient it is. So, I think the first thing you got to do is understand where your building is, in terms of your carbon burn, your energy burn, etc. And, you know, that's probably the first step to start with today. How much energy are we using? And can I be more efficient?
Dan Seguin 03:20
Now, how practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies?
Terry Young 03:27
So I think it's quite practical actually. And like we've been, we've been very fortunate to have a really good relationship with Hydro Ottawa, and we've actually been involved with Envari, and we monitor our utility burns in real time. So, with every 15 minutes, or whatever it is, I can tell you exactly how much energy we're burning- both utility wise, energy being electricity, gas and water. Now, you can't, if you don't monitor, you can't change. So basically, the first step is to start monitoring. And we've been very fortunate. Likewise, the software that they we've provided, they can, you know, there's some analytical data that we provide, to understand trends, to understand where your building is moving, etc. So, yeah, it's quite practical. Now, it's not cheap. And, but, you know, I think it's so worth it.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:18
Maybe a good place to start is what exactly is a smart building? And what are some examples of how technology can connect tenants and property managers in ways that matter?
Terry Young 04:29
So, I think there's a lot of definitions on smart buildings because- talk to five people, you have five different answers. But, I think, if I were to give you a definition of what a smart building is it is centralized control. Basically I can control pretty much anything in the building from one central area. We have the temperature, the humidity, the HVAC systems, the electrical systems, the lighting systems. And so, I think that's what I would call a smart building. That's such, Rebecca, this can be scaled as well. But you can have a really small amount of smart so you can have very large amount of smarts, but it's the same kind of linear path what you're trying to get to, right.
Dan Seguin 05:08
Terry, is it fair to say that we're not only talking about the health of the building, or its impact on the environment, but also the health and comfort of its occupants? What are some of the positive ways smart buildings impact the people who use them?
Terry Young 05:25
There's so many things that- the quality of the environment is you know, there's studies out there, and I've read 50 of them, if I've read 100, about, you know, you're going to increase your quality of work, your air quality, your ability to quickly get to the office, your ability to department quickly, all of these things actually adds directly to productivity lines. There are many companies out there that can actually monitor how much and what product can be looked like. And there's a direct correlation to building help. Absolutely, technology can easily assist you in that. Now, when I say assist, you still need to have a lot of background. And, yes, you're building has to be intelligent to do this. But, there's direct correlation; absolutely between, you know, how, how well you're running your building, how smart your building is, and productivity of the occupants inside that building. Right.
Dan Seguin 06:19
Okay, here's a follow up question. Do you think future proofing may now include reducing the spread of germs in buildings? Have you seen anything that might stick around after COVID-19? Like, temperature readings before employees enter the building, maybe even ventilation standards,
Terry Young 06:40
The ASHRAE Standard. So ASHRAE is an organization that sort of monitors, and regulates, I suppose, how air gets distributed within a facility, a very, very good organization. When COVID first hit, they actually put out a different way of running your buildings, and they set parameters on how to do that. I think that's going to be part of the course moving forward. For sure. I'm not sure heat or temperature, taking your temperature, anything, if that's going to continue. However, you know, we have- there's a lot of face recognition currently available right now, that actually are coinciding with your door passes, and your fob keys, as soon as they see your face, it opens your door. It's easily known. And it's already built into a lot of these platforms that it takes your temperature, whether that's going to be moving forward, I'm not sure. I do think that how people are running their buildings is going to be at or will continue to be at a really, really higher level than it was in the past, because our clients are demanding this. The unfortunate part is, you know, back 30-40 years ago, when we built a lot of these buildings that the systems that were there were built very much to code at the time, but they don't exceed or they aren't to code now. So what we're having to do is as the asset needs to be replaced, we do and we are able to put in that bigger, better system. But the ductwork and the existing spaces are only so big, so it can't do what a hospital does, for instance, and not to bore you or your audience here, but you know, a hospital can actually do a many, many air filtration changes any like they literally take all the air out of one space and take it out and put fresh air in much more effectively and efficiently than a normal commercial building would because that's the way it is. So, we, you know, we have some work to do for sure. We have put a number, when I say a number, it's probably 20 or 30 things that we've done to test and fine tune because we were always kind of doing them. And these are like special MERV rating filters through mechanical air filtration units, humidity control, all of this stuff, we fine tune. And now we monitor and are very aware, on a, you know, a real time basis on the quality of that air that gets pumped in there and how many times we can actually filter that air out. So we're very, very aware. And I think that's going to be something that you're going to see building owners and property owners really having a cognizant awareness of how that works.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:18
As climate change continues to evolve, the demand for space heating and cooling rises along with it. Many organizations are seeing their heating, ventilation and air conditioning system taking the most significant bite out of their bottom line. So my question to you is, what options exist? And what does the future of smart HVAC tech look like?
Terry Young 09:39
So I can speak for an hour here. I know we don't have an hour. But you know, in the last two or three years or maybe last five or six years now we've taken up three or four gigs off our grid out here, just by running. I shouldn't say that- in conjunction with asset replacement, but just by running our buildings better and faster, more efficiently. So you think about it, you know, three gigs is a lot of electricity, right? So, and this is through our analytical software, and this is all, and I should, I should say probably 60 or 70% of that savings, this has come from our ability to run things more efficiently. And basically, you know, to simplify it. We have a bunch of data that we get fed in and we have analytics that actually feed that data and understand it a million times a second kind of thing. No human could do it. But they create efficiencies in the system. So if you look at, you know, from a climate change perspective, and if you're not running these analytical platforms you're behind. Likewise, the minute you turn these things on, it's an instant 15 or 20% savings. So I think that's a huge thing. Likewise, your energy and carbon are very directly correlated. So the minute you save energy in our world, you're saving your carbon burn as well.
Dan Seguin 10:59
Great segue to this next question, Terry. Wondering if you could expand on how data from HVAC systems improves energy management through automation, and predictive analysis that forecasts adjustments based on historical data to enhance and manage overall energy consumption.
Terry Young 11:22
So your, your eyes are gonna glaze over now. So just pause. Because I'm gonna get tactical, or another thing go on. And I enjoy this kind of thing to love. So it's like, and I'll try to put it down to two words, everybody can understand. But in a building, there, there's a bunch of relationships, so there's a big HVAC unit on the roof, and then there's a box that's down there in the ductwork kind of thing that opens and closes and stuff. And then there's a thermostat right there on the wall. So, basically, that's one relationship. Okay. So, basically, if you turn up, you go to 70 degrees, that means the little baffle in the VAV box opens a little bit and pushes enough air in so you're comfortable. Okay, now the fan needs to work at I don't know, whatever percentage that is. So, what happens is with the analytical data, and the analytics, it creates an efficiency within that system. So that's one relationship. Now, if you're in an office with 30 offices, there's 30 different relationships. So the software sits on top there, and it's like an umbrella, and understands in real time, all of these demands on the system. So if you have a 60 horsepower motor, and you have reheat coils, and you have a whole pile of systems working in conjunction and simultaneously with one another, what this software does, it goes, how can I minimize the the use of all of this system to maintain its comfort. So instead of run at a 60 horsepower, so 15 years ago, I turn on that motor, I got 60 horses or 30 horses, whatever it is full bore. And basically, I fill the system full a static pressure, and I just opened it ever so slightly, but I've run the entire system for my office, which is 200 square feet. So now with these new systems, I don't need to do that anymore. There's variable speed drives, which basically means it's like a gas pedal now, so I only press the gas, the amount of kilometers and the speed that I want. So that relationship from the thermostat that's on the wall, says I only need to go five kilometers an hour, which is five horsepower. So also my office next door, if they need five horsepower or five kilometers an hour, that might be five simultaneously. So they'll take that same sort of static pressure, that same temp air and dump it in his or her office as well. So you see how efficient this is throughout the entire system. So, and again, this is, in theory, after I explain it, it's so simple, but we weren't running our real estate like that 15 years ago. But when you do that, two things happen. One is I save a massive amount of energy- actually 3- two, I maintain really, really comfortable spaces and three, and this is the big one here, from a cap x perspective and if you're a finance person, you're looking at this stuff and you saying well, "I don't need to replace that motor anymore". And usually lifespan these motors are pretty defined; definite, right? So it's 17 years. Now I can push that out to 22 years or 27 years, that kind of deal. So it's good. It's good every which way but loose right.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:40
A short time ago, the federal government introduced new funding and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector. They promised $3 billion to establishing a net zero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. What are some of the highlights and what should clients know?
Terry Young 14:59
So, I'm not the guy to be talking to about this, really. But I mean, there's three criteria- three pillars, I suppose. There's one for, they call it decarbonisation. And so this is like, for large emitters, these are big manufacturing plants there. And there's a, there's new technology called carbon capturing as well. So it's big machines look like big dishwashers. Not really, but they're giant, and it takes the bad thing. And they actually can make that into either a brick or something that can be utilized in a cement factory, or whatever. So it takes carbon out of the system, which is good. The second pillar is it's clean technology and industrial transformation. And I think third one is a huge push for battery ecosystem. One of the big things we have here, we have really cool technology, but our batteries, and the battery technology has not kept up. And I say that there's huge advancements, but we're still not there. You know, you look at the cars, for instance, you know, the Tesla gets 600 or 700 kilometers out of a tank, in a perfect condition world. That's still not good enough for Canada. It might be okay for California, but where we have a geographic issue, we need 1000 or more out of one charge, right? So we need a lot of technology pushing out deeper. So I think that's where they're in the short term, this is where the candidate, most of that money is gonna go. And there's a there's actually there's five or six funds that you can actually apply for as well.
Dan Seguin 16:28
We've tackled some of the pros, what are some of the barriers to the adoption of smart building solutions and reducing emissions? Are the fears or concerns you've heard valid?
Terry Young 16:42
So yeah, I, I think the barriers is twofold. One is financial. And this has to be tied to a financial place somewhere. And if it's not tied to costs, it just won't happen. And it's, it's very expensive. But number two is you need a corporate champion, you need somebody at the table at the C suite to really understand what that means to the company to the world to whatever. And so ultimately, that's where the issue is right now. We got a lot of guys at the at the C suite are a little older, they're they got more gray hair or less hair depends which side of the table you're on. But you know, so what's important to me is not what was important to my son who's 22. And so what you're seeing is, you know, with the cost of everything going up supply chain issues, the cost of labor going crazy, all this kind of stuff- this is going to be very expensive. This also, from a carbon costing perspective, with our new- with our federal government plans implemented, you know, in the in the ready, I suppose, are getting more expensive every day, you better have a plan in place, or you're going to get hit really, really quickly. And so I think that some of the biggest barriers are, or fears are, they don't really understand it. So there's a C suite kind of need to change from a championship and again, the financial component of this stuff.
Dan Seguin 18:14
Okay, now, care to expand on some of the biggest opportunities for return on investment in smart building solutions that folks either haven't thought of, or even considered- is there anything you would recommend?
Terry Young 18:31
So, two really is two of the things are energy savings- and we talked about that full stop real quick and easy. Turn, turn the page. Number two is tenant retention. And this is from a financial place. So the better you run your building, the more efficient you run your building, you've got a better chance of attracting and keeping the tenant. So if you look at what our world is looking like now, where is the new office going to be right? So you need to make sure that your space is as good or is better than any other of your competitors. And one of the ways of doing that is to for sure, making your operating costs lower- decreasing your energy. So in our portfolio, in most portfolios, it's probably 25% of your operating costs. It's quite chunky. So you got a 30,000 square foot building, and it's 25% of your costs. It's a lot of money. So if you can shave a point or in our case, 20 points, it, you know, that client can actually push that money to someplace else. So it's a very, very good thing. Likewise, if you're running your buildings very, very well, people want to be there. And the productivity again, is up and thus they make their more money as well.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:44
So what about your building? What are some of the advanced building technologies that you've implemented in your properties? And how did you get buy in from decision makers?
Terry Young 19:53
So we've we've probably played with a lot. Data analytics, we've done with artificial intelligence, a lot of IoT devices we played with, you know, data points, it comes back down to how can we run a better building? It's best practice. And we're very much trying to be leaders, we're trying to be industry leaders, not just in Ottawa, but in the world, on how better you can run a piece of real estate. So we've tried pretty well, if it's out there, and we could afford it, we've played with it. What the problem is, it's very easy to implement new technology in to new real estate. Anybody can do that. What's difficult is when you have an aging piece of real estate be it 30 years old, in our world that aging, by the way. How do you implement and how do you overlay with the backbone and the front end of a new piece of technology? It's very costly, and very impacting of the actual building and its tenants, as well. So this is what we've done, we've actually started taking four a year, for instance, so we've actually digitized four per year. If there's seven years, and we had seven floors, that sometimes happens when the building can't necessarily afford it. So you know, we've probably tried everything that's out there are pretty close to in our in our repertoire, and some of the cool stuff. And I'll get back to the analytics. I mean, you know, we have one of our facilities a few years ago did the AI to take over. And the certain department would go for pints on a Thursday, and that whole department would shut down, the lighting would shut down the building, HVAC, the air conditioning would shut down. So the bosses would walk by and wonder what's going on with the building had taken over knowing that there's a repetition. So every Thursday, if they went for pints with the boys, the building would actually understand that and decrease the lighting areas and decreased energy. So it's very, very cool technology. Not necessarily for the guys, but it's, yeah, so there's I mean, lots of huge energy savings as well. So, lots of cool stuff.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:01
In terms of ability to implement these solutions. Is there enough of a skilled workforce ready and available? What's your experience been like on the operational side?
Terry Young 22:11
Yeah, so quick answer is no. We're really, that's a struggle just like it. It's a trade, it's a skill, it's a skill, you have to be half an IT guy, you have to be half an HVAC mechanic, you have to be part electrician. So they're not, you know, we have one, two on staff maybe, and they're about 10 years older than I am. So they're not going to be here forever. So and we're not being able to back stop that very well. Our universities and colleges certainly are putting out good tradespeople. But this is a very unique kind of niche market. So people usually get into this by mistake. And so it's very rare. So that being said is there are some really cool companies out there that we work with, you know, and I'll shout out to Modern Niagara are very, very, they're a contractor they work for, they have a team dedicated to this stuff specifically, which is awesome for us. So we just call when we have an issue, we don't have to need in house expertise. So some contractors are leading the edge in that space. So we don't necessarily need an expert on staff, we can call somebody.
Dan Seguin 23:24
Now, Terry, what piece of advice will you give to large commercial property owners, and those in large industries about their emission reduction target dates for, let's say, 2030, even 2040 and 2050?
Terry Young 23:39
So I'm not sure I'm the guy to give advice on this stuff. There's certainly companies and people out there, you know, a lot further along in their journey than we are but you know, you have to have a plan. And, you know, I was at a conference on Thursday of last week and a really smart guy. He was telling me a story about a blog he read, he said, if you're not at the table today in carbon reduction strategy, tomorrow, you will be on the menu. Okay, put that on a bumper sticker, because I did. But that's very, very intuitive and smart. So again, if you're not at the table today, when it comes to carbon, and energy reductions, you will be on the menu tomorrow. Get and know what you're burning. Know what carbon where you stand and where you want to go. It's going to be so expensive to do business tomorrow and the next day, you know, carbon price is going to be, you know, most of our buildings and this is the other issue. And I won't get into too deep but we got lots of government agencies here and bless their heart and I love them all. They're sucking and blowing. Right? So we have one side- we have the people given us a rebate to take electricity out and put gas units in that same year. I'm getting double the bill for burning gas and they want me to turn back to electricity. This is the same bunch of guys. Nobody's seeing from the same song book. So it's like, what do you do? These, also, these programs, when you put in an HVAC unit, it's good for 20 years. So you can't you can't just tomorrow turn around and spend 300 grand to change an HVAC unit, it doesn't work that way, right? So now we have to bear that carbon pricing, or whatever that is for a long, long time. So the government needs to really get on the same page, both provincially, federally and municipality wise locally, to really- let's actually get a plan together. And although you know, Mr. Trudeau may be quite aggressive to what he's trying to do, it's going to be very detrimental to business too, as well. And this is where we don't know the net effect. We in Ontario has the highest energy prices in North America per capita, there's no other place to have more. The cost of electricity here is more than anywhere in North America. So we have to compete for talent we have to compete for, for anybody- clients, operating costs, manufacturing facilities, etc, etc. When they look at Ontario, we're not as aggressive in that area. Now, are there other ways of doing it? Absolutely. You know, I think we really are doing our part. And I think we're batting well above our weight class, when it comes to carbon emissions, because we only, you know, we're this much in the in the world of what, you know, we impact. So I think we're way, way above our weight class, for sure.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:30
Ultimately, what do you hope these emission targets will achieve for companies and municipalities? Will they be required to innovate and plan for a sustainable future? And control costs?
Terry Young 26:41
Yeah, the world? The answer is yes, they, you know, these carbon targets, good, bad or ugly- we will have to bring those into our business model. They're going to be very expensive. So somewhere the cost has to sort of balance itself, right? And at the end of the day, it's my son and my son's son, you know, it's my grandkids that we're trying to help out here. And, you know, we've not necessarily done an okay job. I think there's many, many companies, and you know, it wasn't something that anybody thought of 30 years ago. My dad's generation, it wasn't, it wasn't there. It was, you know, it's climate change is no such thing kind of deal, right? And but it really is. It's real, the data is real, science is real. And we don't nip this and control it or try to mitigate it, we're going to be in a lot more trouble than we are. And again, it comes back down to that corporate champion that I was talking about earlier. We really need some corporate champions at the C suites to make this something important. Balancing finance, balancing cost. This is where the government comes in, you know, you can't put all of this on the backs of industry, it's going to be impossible. Industry will fail. It's financially not doable in some circumstances. So there's going to have to be a give and take; there's gonna have to be relationship, there's going to have to be "how can we get there together"? And it's going to be, it's not going to be easy, it really is not going to be easy.
Dan Seguin 28:19
Now, let's fast forward to post pandemic. What is your prediction for commercial real estate? Will people return to their office towers like before? Or has there been a shift? What's your prediction?
Terry Young 28:36
I think- I think there will be a back to the office thing. I don't know what it's going to look like, I'll actually I'll even I'll even put five bucks on it. That's how confident I am. It's the right thing for a human being to be, okay? There's a number of studies and again, you know, I'm quite well read up on this research and development of patents, for instance, patents are down a decrease. There's a reason for that, you know, when a human gets involved with another human, there's magic, there's chemistry, when you're down in your basement, that doesn't happen. It needs to be closed quarters, you know, and I give the analogy, if you play golf, when you actually golf with a person who's a lot better than you, you may be, say a 15 handicap and you're, you're playing with sixes, your game instantly goes up. So everybody's game just goes a little bit sharper, a little bit faster. That's where the magic happens. You know, and there's a term that they pegged, I think is social malnutrition, where people need or lack the social interaction. And we're social creatures, right? And I'll tell you the water cooler banter that you know that whole social going hockey every Thursday night with the boys, that is magic. And that's what happens. You know, if you look at a de-stress, and you look at the, you know, the emotional intelligence and understanding how your office is working and stuff, you know, in the past how you would deescalate really hard week, if you're not in the office, and you can't have these normal rules or normal things that you do, the stress seems to build, you know, and that's where that's where, you know, that's what scares me the most, I think, when it comes to tomorrow, and the next day, so I really think people will be back in the office, I think there might be a hybrid model, but I think it's going to be the exception, not the rule. So I think you're going to have, you know, two days, three days in out, whatever. And, you know, if you need a day or two to get your paperwork done, and get out of and get a bunch of work done, absolutely. But you're going to come back to the office, and you will want that. And I think companies and you know will require that as well, because that's where the productivity and that's where magic happens.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:00
All right. You mentioned that feeling of stress. Can you elaborate a little bit on what keeps you up at night? And what makes you nervous?
Terry Young 31:09
So, I mean, I sleep like a baby. So I don't- I'm not a big stressful fella. But I think if I were to say one thing is knowing, you know, the pressures that are on our people and the stresses, I mean, the mental health tally and toll this has taken is going to be a generation to really comprehend. And that, you know, if I would look at one thing, that's probably the biggest thing that I worry about, I suppose when it comes to, you know, this whole post pandemic thing, it's a toll. It's a toll on a lot a lot of people and I only wish that that wasn't the case. But and you can feel it in your workplace. It's not it's not a good thing.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:59
And what about things like cybersecurity? Has that been a top priority for the commercial real estate industry?
Terry Young 32:04
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a big, big question for sure. And the answer is yes. Yes. And more. Yes. You know, because the more you know, we talked about smart buildings, we talked about IP, we talked about protocols and all of this smart technology, it speaks a language that language is on the internet. Likewise, when I said that describe what a smart building is, it's centrally controlled. How do you centrally control? It is centrally controlled by the on the internet, there's bad people, bad guys on the internet. So you know, most hits that have happened in modern day has either come usually comes from a building automation system back door somewhere. So we very much share on that space. There's a couple of really cool technologies out there local by the way, that that sort of they call it covalence is the type of cybersecurity and it understands the language and the pathways in which this data travels; very much analytical base as well and AI, and its local, local guy, local firm, really, really smart bunch of guys. And so they actually can take your building automation systems, and sort of give a level of protection that normally you wouldn't have. So we've created a bit of a lock and key process on how you enter and exit some of these networks and, yeah, so it's very, very top of mind. And it's every year. It's not when- it's not if it's when.
Dan Seguin 33:39
Okay, Terry, I know this isn't your first podcast rodeo. So, as a result, we came up with some new rapid fire questions. I hope you are ready, sir.
Terry Young 33:51
Not really,
Dan Seguin 33:52
Terry. What are you reading right now?
Terry Young 33:55
So this is funny. This is funny because it doesn't, I'm not a big reader, but I'm actually reading 21 Things That You May Not Know About the Indian Act. Funny enough, my son who's an avid reader on this the really good piece of literature and disturbing by the way it's a pretty good read. I'm about halfway through it's not it's not good. But anyway, it's good and bad. Whatever.
Dan Seguin 34:02
Now I'm looking forward to this answer. What would you name your boat if you had one? Do you have one?
Terry Young 34:28
"She'll do for now". Yeah, no, I'm a big boat person, buddy. I'm always able to boat and everybody’s got to put a date; every year you need extra, so to speak, so it's so my dad came up with this many years ago. Well she’ll do for now, boy and I'm from Newfoundland- so she'll do for now meaning that it's okay till I get my new one because the boat is like it's like it's not good because you got to 16 footer, you need 18. You got an 18, you need a 20. So yeah, she'll do for now.
Dan Seguin 35:03
Who is someone that you admire?
Terry Young 35:07
I just said him, my dad, he's a really, really good guy. Retired when he was 62 and went back to school and became a paramedic. And now, yeah, and now he's 74 and still active. Just one of those guys. He just loves life. And he, you know, I've never he's just the best human being that I know.
Dan Seguin 35:28
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Terry Young 35:33
Yeah, I, I'm not a big magic fan. I'm not sure. I thought about this one. I really don't know.
Dan Seguin 35:42
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?
Terry Young 35:47
So two things came to mind when this question came up, is, for me, the challenge isn't, I live in a cabin, by the way, and up on the water. And so this pandemic thing, I'm out in the bush, I'm an outdoorsy guy. So this pandemic, it meant nothing to me, like when it came to light, I was very fortunate to work for an amazing company, we didn't have to lay anybody off. So we're able to work from home. And yeah, so my world, it started off in the bush anyway. So I didn't, I'm not a big in the city person. So, you know, that didn't affect me, but come back to the mental health of our folks, you know that- the relationship stresses that I see the, you know, how can we, as a team make our company better? So if you look at the challenge here is this cause the big problem? And now how can we make it better? How can we create plans? How can we put in place you know, in our company, we're developing a very, a wellness strategy, it's called Care Plan Meets. And it's based on this new world. So we had, what I consider, a pretty good plan before, now we're making it better. And because of the new changing circumstances, you know, everybody, you know, their benefits are here, the company has been like this for 35 years, it's all the same, well, the world has changed. And the view as a company, or as the leader that runs a company, if you don't understand that what you had yesterday is not good for today, you're going to lose people you're going to there's going to be a shift. And you're not only going to lose people to other companies, you're gonna lose people to other issues. So we're really trying aggressively to put a plan in place, but that doesn't happen.
Dan Seguin 37:33
Okay, we've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie? Or show?
Terry Young 37:41
So, my- I don't know what this says about me. But my favorite movies Talladega Nights, Will Ferrell. That movie ever boy best movie ever. Shake and Bake. Yeah.
Dan Seguin 37:53
And lastly, Terry, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Terry Young 37:59
So, I think, it's a great question. The industry, what's exciting me is this new generation of people we got coming up. And it's, and I'm talking about my son's generation, he's 25. Actually he's 23 going on 24. He just got his first job. And he started to look at where he wanted to work, not where, what, who would accept him. But so he started looking at what is the company's culture, what is the company's sustainability practices, etc, etc. Now, he has a degree in International Business. He speaks three languages- this kid is, I mean, I'm partial too but we also have here, three or four of those young people who are articulate, they're extremely smart, they have a work ethic, they have balance, everything that I, you know, there's things that I sort of, if I wish I could have had back then. So I think there's a generation of young people that are brilliant. And that's what really, I see as exciting. You know, we were at a conference with Tony, last week, we had two young, younger staff members there. And, and I was proud to sit in the middle of them, that, you know, just they got up and they they walk the room, they can work the room. And they're passionate about sustainability. They're passionate about business. And then they also have this balance that we may as my generation, we may have went a little bit further on the one side, so they don't have that balance problem. So they know what's important and their families, they know how to do a good job. And you know, you hear them all the, you know, generations coming up. It's not it's not good. You've heard all these old timers and stuff. That's, that's true for every generation. There are bad apples everywhere. But I'll tell you, these young people that we got coming up, there's there's there's a really good vibe out there. And I'm really excited to see what they're going to do what the world is going to be looked like. So we look at and we can sum up here with the carbon sustainability and stuff, it's going to take that generation, that that's important to them. So when my son or your son gets at that C suite level, he's going to be his wallets already full. He knows exactly what and how he's going to run that company to make sure that for his kids sustainability and carbon and all of this stuff, that's the only saving grace, they're going to be able to reverse some of the damage that we've done, because that's how they operate. So that's what makes me excited about the industry. You know, the technology is, is great. And I mean, we can play with that, but, and it comes down to good people running the technology without the good people, that technology is relatively useless to a point, right? So that's what I'm excited about.
Rebecca Schwartz 40:46
Well, Terry, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Terry Young 40:56
So krpproperties.com. For sure, reach out and there's a there's an info page, and there's a connect page slot there on the website. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty simple stuff.
Dan Seguin 41:08
Again, my friend, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Terry Young 41:12
Hey, I did. Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate it.
Did you know buildings as a whole make up for 40% of global energy consumption? When you consider the majority of commercial buildings are more than 30 years old, it’s clear energy-efficient retrofits and upgrades are needed to help bring these buildings into the 21st century. Terry Young, Vice President of Operations at KRP Properties, joins this episode of thinkenergy to talk about the planning needed to future-proof commercial buildings to help reach net zero targets and reduce their carbon footprint.
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Dan Seguin 41:15
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
In part one of our conversation about microgrids, we spoke with Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology with Hydro Ottawa, about how these systems can help Canada reach its net zero goals. Charles joins us again for part two, this time focusing on how we can meet the demand for energy while maintaining safety and security—all in the name of decarbonizing our future.
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Dan Seguin 00:06This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone! Welcome back. We're back today with Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology at Hydro Ottawa to talk about micro grids on part two of our show. Last time, Charles went in depth about the benefits of micro grids and how they operate while connected to the electricity grid, but that they can also operate on their own using local energy generation in times of power outages caused by storms or grid failure. Today, he's going to discuss distributed energy resources, and how they are connected to the micro grid.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:08
Now more than ever, we know people care about the environment, climate change and sustainability, and are increasingly interested in things like renewable generation and electrification. All of that leads us to creating a smarter electricity grid.
Dan Seguin 01:23
Renewable energy generation is expected to play a major role in the further decarbonisation of Canada's electricity system, while relying on nature to assist us in generating cleaner electricity. Sometimes, it's not always the most reliable.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:42
As we know, Mother Nature is pretty fickle. So, that's where distributed energy resources like energy storage and distributed generation come into play.
Dan Seguin 01:52
Here's today's big question. While the time has come to decarbonize our grid even further with alternative energy sources, how can we ensure we can meet the growing demand for energy while also maintaining safety and security?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:09
Charles, it's nice to have you back.
Dan Seguin 02:11
Okay, Charles, let's dive into part two. What sets distributed energy resources, better known as DERs? Apart from micro grids? Both can generate or store energy and manage consumption depending on type, right? Can you unpack this for listeners?
Charles Berndt 02:30
Yeah, I've always considered DERs kind of the individual parts of a micro grid, right? The micro grid is a holistic thing and an area where it has both generation and storage and consumption. Whereas DERs are those individual pieces that could be solar, it could be battery storage, it could be you know, it could be a hot water tank, you know, you can think of that as a distributed energy resource and electric vehicle battery, solar on the roof, any of those could be could be DERs, and they could be a part of a micro grid. But but not a micro grid on its own. If that, if that makes sense.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:10
Okay, so what's driving the growth around distributed energy resources?
Charles Berndt 03:14
I think you're seeing kind of two big drivers. I mean, the first is obviously economics of the storage and generation we're seeing solar and battery storage getting cheaper every year, it's falling quite rapidly. And it's a significant reduction in costs per kilowatt hour, every year. And they're getting better. And the second one, I would say is that drive towards lower carbon, I think, you know, customers are looking to reduce their carbon footprint, and they're starting to get to the point where they're willing to spend their own money to do that. So you have that double effect, the technology is getting better and cheaper, and then more customers are willing to invest and then it kind of gets that momentum. So I think it's it's very much the two things hand in hand.
Dan Seguin 04:02
Okay. Now, Charles, talk to me about the rise of local energy. Is there a need for greater education to help customers understand that they can shift from being a consumer that's consuming energy to a prosumer- producing, even selling electricity back to the grid?
Charles Berndt 04:22
Yeah, I'd say yes, but not in the way you might expect. I think I've found customers to be fairly well informed that the technology and how it works, they seem, you know, they seem to know exactly what the options are available. Ontario in specific has had those programs for for quite a few years and people are getting, getting a firm understanding. They're reading that in the news and they understand it quite well, actually. And so I find, excuse me, that the education support where it's needed is more around the economic choices available to them. Um, what is the business case and the return on that investment, if they were to make that leap? And unfortunately, that answer is very local. You know that every jurisdiction, every province, every territory, every country has a different economic model for how they sell and compensate electricity. And so there's no universal answer for everyone, it really, it really is a localized answer. And that's, I think, where you know, where the education or the support is needed is how to build that, build that in for people to help them understand, you know, how a homeowner or a business owner can make that choice and where the economics play out, and they can make the choice and empower them to make the choice that they want to.
Dan Seguin 05:43
Okay, here's a follow up question. What's been the biggest barrier or challenge for more adoption? What's needed to overcome them?
Charles Berndt 05:53
I'm gonna say economics again. And I know it's, it may be boring, but I've met, like I said, I've met a lot of passionate customers who want to adopt, but the economic case is not there. So I think, you know, there's, there's no silver bullet here. We've seen incentives have an impact in the past, but then I think we can all recognize that the solution to the problem needs to be a little bit more holistic and needs to be sustainable for all the customers. So I think we're seeing, you know, market reform is what's needed and we're starting to embark, Ontario is embarking on that journey, and I'm happy to see it but yeah, not, not this attempted silver bullet here for that one specific problem. It needs that big system view and make sure that we're making the appropriate choices.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:40
We've touched on the what of micro grids, what about the ‘how’, how does it work connecting DERS and micro grids to the grid? Will utilities be required to digitally retrofit their aging infrastructure to make the grid more resilient and reliable in the face of increasing climate stress, rising electricity demand, and essentially greater overall dependence on electricity?
Charles Berndt 07:05
The short answer is yes. All of the above, really. You know, as I mentioned, last time, the need to become more interactive with our customers as they, as they become increasingly part of that generation mix as they adopt distributed energy resources, we need to have more intelligence at the edge of our system. So not just looking at the substation and sending electricity down the wire, so to speak, but we need to manage the assets and the grid differently. This different type of management will help our planning and investment programs. And to do this, we need to make significant investment in our systems and how we collect data, how we manage data, how we use that data to make choices and operating the system, both for sunny weather and during major storms or events. And, you know, that's not to say we won't have to invest in the traditional sense, we're still going to need more wires, we're still going to need substations because we're a growing Ottawa is a growing community and electric vehicles, for example and electrification of heating and cooling brings, brings a lot of load. And so you've got to continually balance, you know, how do we do the non wires and incentivize those, but then also make sure that we have that foundation in place? So will it require us to digitally retrofit? Absolutely. It's all going to be a technology solution primarily.
Dan Seguin 08:33
That's great. Thanks, Charles. Now, are there concerns about unpredictability of certain renewable energy resources and how that might impact the electricity grid and operations of micro grids? How do you mitigate that?
Charles Berndt 08:48
I mean, it can be a concern. And you can mitigate that in kind of two ways. So, for the energy, we need to store it somehow. And that can be local, by putting a little battery next to your generation or some other type of storage, but then also, you can leverage the grid for that storage, you know, we can, we can use things like large hydroelectric generator systems in the far north to be a large grid size battery. So that's one way to do it. And the other way is to mix, you know, it's not all solar, it's not all wind, it's not all hydroelectric. It's really the combination of many and making sure- I keep coming back to this because I'm, you know, I really believe in looking at a systems approach; a holistic approach look at what mixing those look like where the sun goes down, the wind picks up and overnight, the river keeps flowing. So that's, you know, that's how you do it, is you make sure that you're not over incentivizing over investing in one thing over the other. It's truly a mix.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:53
So, Charles, exactly how important is it for distributed energy resources, both in addressing climate change and energy security challenges? Can DERs help shield communities against the impact of extreme weather events, which are becoming more and more frequent?
Charles Berndt 10:10
In time, absolutely. I know, short term you can, you can improve resiliency with that local storage. You can potentially put together a micro grid on a campus or other critical location. But in the longer term, you obviously can, can lower the impact on the environment through that energy switching electrification, bringing more renewables into the mix means less carbon impact, and less carbon is always a, it's always a good thing. And it's going to, you know, it's not going to solve climate, the climate crisis on its own, but it's going to, it's going to help and it's going to reduce the problem. And it's the way to go.
Dan Seguin 10:47
Now, I'd love to hear your thoughts on where energy storage, and the battery in electric vehicles fits into this equation. As the majority of EV charging demand is expected to come from home charging.
Charles Berndt 11:02
Yeah, I think this is our probably our biggest opportunity in the short term. As transportation gets electrified, you know, how we integrate how we manage and optimize that load can have a massive benefit to everyone, the grid and our customers. Being able to manage that charging and being able to do that signaling, that dynamic conversation with the customer and their technology. And to help manage it so that it's, it's done at the right time, it's done at the economic time for them and, and they have the flexibility, but we empower, empower them to make the choice that makes sense for them economically, and then, and then try and use those signals also to help manage our system as that load grows. For that future vision of where electric vehicles could play, I admittedly was a huge doubter of that vehicle to grid technology, I, you know, I couldn't see a customer being willing to do that. But, you know, I look at advertisements for electric vehicles now. And you see that they're, they're really touting that feature of being able to have that emergency backup power, that, that local power. And so now, once the customer is comfortable with withdrawing that energy out of the battery, you know, I'm sure it's a small, it's a small leap to use that or being willing to use it in support of the grid. And then there's an economic, you know, solution there to figure out but, you know, I don't see it as as a such a red line, as I did before, when, you know, people were really worried about warranties on batteries. You know, that was a huge conversation early on in EVs, I'm hearing much, much less of that. And even range anxiety, you're hearing much, much less of that people, people are getting comfortable with these things and realizing their whole value.
Rebecca Schwartz 12:51
From my knowledge, distributed energy resources are somewhat invisible and can't be controlled by grid operators, correct? This means that it's difficult to integrate them into the overall operation of the grid. Are there any smart digital solutions in the future that could enable DER owners to monitor and manage the resources in real time? And could this help grid operators more closely monitor and influence DER owners?
Charles Berndt 13:18
Yeah, I think I think your right on both. Right now, it is pretty passive. We are, we have knowledge of certain size of generators from the larger generators we connect to and, and that the size of generator that we connect to with with the technology to make sure that we know what's going on- that's getting smaller every year, if that makes sense. We're now asking, you know, the smaller generators to give us insight and to connect to us on a communications platform. But going forward, it's you know, in order to really incentivize that huge adoption of DERs, we need that platform, we have to have that platform. And we have to evolve and adapt as a utility. So that our control room and our engineers and our staff and our customer service, folks, everybody has that platform to understand what's going on what's changing in the grid, and how do we manage it day to day and the more DERs we get, the more critical it becomes that we have that visibility and interaction with our customers. So we've been investing, you know, over the last few years, and we have a rather significant roadmap ahead of us. Over the next five years, we're going to be investing significantly in our platforms, not only our traditional control and outage management systems that we've always had, making sure those are modern, but then also adding those analytics modules on top. We've, we've started to add, you know, people with with a data science background to our utility, we're hiring different people. We're pulling in people from technology, from, you know, from the high tech sector, and we're leveraging modern ways of managing and manipulating data to understand insight and where is it going? Where is it going to be today? How do we optimize? And so, it's going to help us immensely in managing that going forward.
Dan Seguin 15:12
Now, Charles, we touched a bit on this earlier, but energy from the wind and sun is intermittent, and often unpredictable. Critics point to this as the fatal flaw of renewable energy and the reason electricity prices rose in places aggressively adopting it. Is this true?
Charles Berndt 15:31
Not really, I mean, like I said before, there's no silver bullet here. So, if we incentivize or over incentivize one thing over another, then yeah, you're gonna have an impact on cost, there's no doubt about that. But, you need to look at the big picture. And I'm gonna get back to this holistic vision of of the system, because, you know, if you look at what gains when we reduce carbon, and I'll point to an example, it's a bit of a touchy example, in Ontario, but the elimination of the coal fired generation in Ontario. You know, leaving the politics aside, there was a significant improvement in the air quality of the Greater Toronto Area, so that leads to better health outcomes. That leads to better, you know, better quality of living for the residents. Lower overall health care costs. So, somewhere that was, you know, that was not maybe not fully recouped. But, that has an impact on everyone's life, whether they're, they're personally paying the electric bill or not. So, it's that type of broader view that needs to be taken here. And we can debate the, you know, the implementation of it, and the, you know, whether it's a carbon tax or, you know, offsetting generation or incentivizing a different type of generation, I, you know, that's, I think, besides the point, I think, I think we can all, if we all just take a step back and recognize the holistic improvements to everything, then it's very much worth it.
Rebecca Schwartz 16:59
All right, sorry, not sorry, Charles, but I'm going to put you on the spot here. Cann microgrids, and DERs power our transition to net zero by 2050.
Charles Berndt 17:09
Absolutely. Without a doubt. Shortest answer I'm gonna have. Absolutely. There's no, I have no doubt. The technology is there. The software is there, you just, we just need to do it. And we just need to, you know, change, change our thinking and change our approach and be willing to question how we do it and challenge ourselves to do it better.
Dan Seguin 17:30
Okay, Charles, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Once again, I'd love if we could end with a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Charles Berndt 17:42
I'm ready. I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 17:43
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've ever witnessed?
Charles Berndt 17:51
I've got a whimsical answer for this one. I used to work at a place where we used a lot of liquid nitrogen. So, it's kind of weird, but we just had a lot of it on hand. And one lunchtime, we were having an employee celebration, and somebody came in with a bunch of cream and some, some vanilla extract and like a drill with one of those paint stirrers and a big pot. And I was like, "what are we doing with this"? Like, "what is this for"? And the director of engineering took a big cup of liquid nitrogen and put all the cream and the sugar and everything in a pot with a drill, stirring it like a can of paint and poured the nitrogen in. And literally 30 seconds later, we were all eating ice cream. And it was like, such a simple and obvious thing. I don't know why I still think of it to this day. It was like, it only took three minutes and we were all eating, all 70 of us were eating delicious, fresh ice cream. So yeah, it's kind of a ridiculous answer. But it was magic. I don't understand, it was magic.
Dan Seguin 18:45
That's so cool, Charles. Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?
Charles Berndt 18:52
So, I manage a few people, and for me, I'm a very personally interactive person, I'm very social, I thrive on social interaction. And, so it's been a little isolating, and I've had to, you know, change how I do things, how I interact with a group of people, co-workers and the team that I work with. And, so it's been a growth for me, but, you know, I have not had significant impacts on the pandemic. I've been personally quite lucky. So if that's the biggest thing I have to complain about, then I consider myself lucky. The benefit has been I've you know, spent so much time with my very young family and it's been it's been good that way. And they're young enough that I don't have to teach them anything, you know, according to a curriculum. I'm lucky that way. I'm not I'm not there yet.
Dan Seguin 19:42
Okay, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, right? What's your favorite movie or show?
Charles Berndt 19:52
Right now, it's it's Drive to Survive. I'm a huge Formula One fan. For those who can't see me I'm actually wearing a Formula One shirt and yeah, it's, it's awesome for me I get to see a show that's my favorite sport. So that's, yeah, it's great.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:08
Well, Charles, thanks again for joining us today. We hope you had a good time.
Charles Berndt 20:12
I did. Thank you so much for having me again.
Dan Seguin 20:15
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The term microgrid might make them sound small, but these systems could hold a big key to Canada’s low-carbon future. Microgrids are made up of energy users, distributed energy resources, and advanced controllers, all working together to form an energy grid for both renewable and non-renewable generators. They also have the potential to adopt cleaner technologies, which in turn could improve the way the utility industry is managed and operated. Charles Berndt, Manager of Grid Technology at Hydro Ottawa, joins Dan and Rebecca for a conversation on what microgrids are and how they can help Canada reach its net zero goals.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone. Welcome back. The electricity grid was built to deliver electricity to homes and businesses a little more than a century ago. It's hard to imagine with our obsession and dependency on technology today, how it really wasn't that long ago, we lived without electricity.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:51
The electricity grid is basically a large machine. Think of it almost as the world's largest machine, but built for the outdated 20th century power systems, which are very simple and flowing only in one direction. As we know, though, machines are complex, and they need things like maintenance, replacements, investments, and of course, innovation and upgrades.
Dan Seguin 01:14
Well, this large machine is already getting the biggest upgrade in history. So it can communicate with our homes, businesses, smartphones, our cars and watches. More than any time in history, people want to connect and interact with the grid. That would have been unimaginable 100 years ago.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:39
It's definitely an exciting time to be in our industry. There's lots of new incentives being introduced by our government to support things like energy management, cleaner tech, electric vehicles, and smart grid projects.
Dan Seguin 01:50
Yes, it was just in March 2022, the Government of Canada released its climate target of cutting emissions by 40% below 2005 levels by 2030. The plan includes $9.1 billion in new investments to cut pollution and accelerate the path to net zero by 2050. It also outlines funding to make it easier for Canadians to switch to electric vehicles, make Canada's electricity grid even cleaner, help industries adopt cleaner tech, empower communities to take climate action, embrace the power of nature to fight climate change, and reduce oil and gas emissions, amongst others.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:39
So Dan, let's talk about a relatively unknown technology that I'm told can play a large part in helping along some of these initiatives. They're called micro grids. Micro grids, as defined by the Conference Board of Canada are systems of interconnected energy users, distributed energy resources, and advanced controllers that form local electricity grids. These energy resources include renewable and non renewable generators, and increasingly battery energy storage systems. Which due to their potential for adapting cleaner technologies, micro grids are playing a pretty important role in contributing to our transition for that low carbon future.
Dan Seguin 03:21
So, here's today's big question. Are micro grids the answer to a faster path to net zero and Canada's clean energy future? Our guest today is Charles Berndt, the manager of grid technology here at Hydro Ottawa. Charles, welcome to the show and to part one of our discussion on all things micro grids. Charles, can you start by telling us a bit about yourself and your role at Hydro Ottawa as a manager of grid technology?
Charles Berndt 03:56
Yeah, loving husband, father of two young, wonderful boys, engineer, foodie, and complete energy geek. Yeah, my day job, Manager of Grid Technology; I look after technology that's used to help us control our grid. So, our system operations staff, any platform they use to to monitor and understand what's going on out in the grids, whether it's, you know, managing devices or looking at outages. That's what what my team does. And we also look at new and emerging technologies. I spend a lot of my time looking at new ventures and looking at, you know, how can we apply our systems and technology to different problems and how we can improve upon those platforms?
Rebecca Schwartz 04:41
In what instances or applications can micro grids be applied? Is there a minimum or maximum micro grid size?
Charles Berndt 04:49
I wouldn't say there's a minimum or maximum per se, I would say it has to be economically feasible, obviously, and it has to solve the problem you're out to solve. So, for the most part, I think you'll see larger institutions, larger campuses that start to look at this technology. At least that's what we're seeing now. But I wouldn't say that there's there's hard and fast rules as to how big it is, or how small it can be. But definitely, you know, the economics are gonna play into that.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:19
Okay, follow up for you, Charles, what is the return on investment for a microgrid? And what are some of the financial, operational, and environmental benefits?
Charles Berndt 05:28
I think it's, you know, the ROI question is obviously, the biggest one, and it's dependent on how you take a view upon the whole problem, and it really needs to depend on the larger view of things. So you're not looking purely at the cost of electricity. You need to look at those other aspects. Like reliability, you know, what does that reliability mean to your particular business or to your community, and if you have critical needs, or you have carbon objectives, or you want to get off of certain carbon sources, and then you can really make it work. But yeah, there, it's not on a pure electricity cost basis, so you're not going to compete with the grid. But the broader you look, the more holistic view you take it, the more it's gonna make sense.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:14
Okay, last follow up along this line of questioning, how long do microgrids last? And does it depend on how they're fueled?
Charles Berndt 06:22
You know, it depends on how much you're willing to spend, I guess, you know, your storage, your generation, your consumption, they all have to match up. And if they match up perfectly, if you're able to make storage, you know, have enough storage or have enough generation to make it work, then you could stay islanded indefinitely. But definitely, it's the economics of the situation and what your, what your objectives are, then you can make it as long lasting or as brief as you need it to be.
Dan Seguin 06:50
Now, Charles, what are the components of a successful micro grid project? What needs to come together?
Charles Berndt 06:58
It's those, it's those three things, it's the generation, the storage and the consumption need to be kind of imbalanced, in total, so you need to work together. And to do that you need technology. Technology is the basic, biggest aspect. Some people say the, the smart grid problem is a software problem. And they're, they're actually right. You just need to, to have the sources and think of that energy balance out and need to manage dynamically where you're, where you're taking the energy from, where you're putting it, and how you're managing those customers' expectations. So we you know, we kind of take it for granted today that we're connected to this unending source of electricity, this grid, right, but, you know, the closer you get to that, you need to have that more dynamic and technology that manages that.
Dan Seguin 07:50
Okay, now, in your opinion, who are the ideal customers to adopt this technology? Water treatment plants, hospitals, universities, large manufacturers?
Charles Berndt 08:02
I think, I think definitely the campus, the campus style approach is, is the ones who are looking at it now. We're starting to see, traditionally cogeneration projects are starting to expand. So those campuses that need to use, or hospitals or other major institutions that needs that already have significant needs for backup or other energy generation requirements. They're the ones that are starting to look at this. And I think those are the ideal, the ideal candidates to look at this technology.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:33
Can you give us some good examples of a micro grid project here in Ottawa, or elsewhere that really showcases the potential?
Charles Berndt 08:40
We're starting to see the educational campuses, they're really looking into that. I kind of mentioned earlier that those who have cogeneration, we're seeing both actually all three, or three of the three of the big ones, Carleton, U Ottawa, and Algonquin have some form of cogeneration and U Ottawa I know is looking at a micro grid for part of their campus. We're seeing a lot of district thermal starting to happen, a lot of a lot of investment in that front. So when you start looking at energy holistically, those are the ones who can really start to think about wow, if I take a broader look, use all the energy sources, all of the energy uses then those are the ones who could benefit from it. We also ran a project here at Hydro Ottawa, a technology project to look at how could we develop technology to make our customers more grid interactive, and it's those types of technologies that would help in the creation and management of a micro grid.
Dan Seguin 09:47
Charles, micro grids use renewable and non renewable energy sources. Correct? Can you expand on what that means?
Charles Berndt 09:57
Yeah, you can use traditional fossil fuel generation. Fossil fuel sources like natural gas, and again, coming back to that cogeneration that was the first step in the direction of micro grids that many, many institutions have taken. But also, you know, with storage, and solar and wind, these, these things are getting cheaper and more commoditized, especially on storage that the dollar per per kilowatt hour store is, is dropping significantly, and solar is dropping significantly. And so it's, you know, we're starting to see the economics start to make sense where you look at not just the traditional natural gas fired generation, but you're looking at both solar and natural gas.
Dan Seguin 10:45
Now, wondering if you can expand on what is a hybrid micro grid system?
Charles Berndt 10:53
It's all of the above scenario, right? I mean, you're looking at, you're looking at not only just generation in the traditional sense of burning natural gas, but you can you can get wind, you can get solar, and then you can be you can be grid connected, and you can think of the grid as a potential generation source or some some other source of energy that you can balance with. And, I know, that's almost contradictory, having a micro grid, grid tied, but you know, it could be seen as the best of both worlds where you're just out to solve the problem that you have in the most economical and technological way. That's feasible, you know, it's not a, it's never a purist game. It's about it's about solving what you need to solve for. And don't, you know, don't paint yourself into a corner. It doesn't make sense.
Rebecca Schwartz 11:42
Much like small modular nuclear reactors, are there applications whereby micro grids could be used in remote communities in Canada? And what are some of the environmental benefits for implementing micro grids in these areas?
Charles Berndt 11:56
You know, I think traditionally, the remote communities, small communities have been, you know, heavily, heavily reliant on that, on carbon based fuels like, so diesel generation, bunker oil generation, like really the old, old school type of heavy carbon intense generation sources. And they're the ideal, the ideal candidates for this type of technology, not only, you know, in the, in the ideal sense of getting them completely off carbon and getting them on to solar and wind, or even new technology, like small modular reactor technology, but even optimizing how you're burning the carbon, you know, with storage of carbon plus storage, I know it's, you know, some might see it as an unnecessary middle step, but, you know, operating any generation source in its, in its ideal efficiency window, could could see savings and can see efficiency gains. And that, you know, that, in turn, will reduce carbon emissions significantly.
Dan Seguin 13:01
That's great, Charles. Now, wondering if you could help us better understand why utility partnerships are so important to micro grid projects?
Charles Berndt 13:12
I mean, I'm gonna speak selfishly a little bit. You know, the utilities are your ideal partner. We've got, we've got a broad selection of very strong, technical individuals, but also people who, who have been focused on this problem for many years. And, and I, you know, I think the first, the first blush that a customer might look at it and say, "well, how does it make sense, I'm trying to get disconnected from the utility and the micro grid sense", but in actuality, you know, the technology that could be used here, benefits the utility and the customer could benefit by being connected to the utility. So, a partnership can make it economical, can make it feasible, and, you know, we have, we have the ability to to help you access government funding for, you know, climate change, but also for technology development. So, I think the utility is an ideal candidate to partner with. We have that we have that strength and those abilities and we're always willing to help.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:15
Can microgrids improve local management of power supply and demand and by ricochet defer costly investments by utilities and new power generation?
Charles Berndt 14:24
Absolutely. I mean, without a doubt, it could drastically improve our ability to manage load and to target our investment in a more efficient way. So today, we're designing you know, it's our design is driven by the worst case scenario. What could the customer consume? What could, in a worst case, does all of our customers need? And so you see things that, you know, we saw it in the broader Ontario context with the natural gas peaking plants, you know, they spend most of their time just just sitting around but waiting for that, you know, that four or five or six days a year where they need, they're desperately needed and they get spooled up and they use carbon and they cost a lot of money to maintain and operate. But with the technology that underpins these micro grids, you can, you can use it to not only create the micro grid and manage the micro grid, but you can also use it to change the relationship that your customer has with the utility or the micro grid has with its, you know, its host utility or partner utility. And being able to dynamically manage the load and sources and help to curtail those worst case scenarios where, where it allows the utility to say, "okay, I don't have to worry about this one day in 365, I can worry about all the other 364 days, and I can optimize for economics or carbon across the year and not just always worry about that that worst case scenario".
Dan Seguin 15:52
Charles, what role could microgrids have in accelerating the path to Canada's net zero targets? Where do you see their biggest potential?
Charles Berndt 16:04
I see it, you know, as a technology person, obviously, I look first to the technology and the development of that technology. And it comes back to that worst case scenario where, if we start deploying the technology to manage consumption, or to help the customer have that two way relationship with the utility, and not just for generation, you know, the customer wants to generate solar electricity, but having that dynamic conversation where we're sending each other signals of what we need, then that could help. You can just target- what do you want to change? Do you want to change the economics? Well, then you can set your set your signaling, on economics, if you want to manage carbon, well then just say, hey, carbon intensive time, why don't you, if you're interested in reducing carbon, then we can reduce your consumption or move to your stored electricity and you can you can target any problem that you want to solve. And one of the big ones could be carbon.
Dan Seguin 17:02
Okay. Now, the Government of Canada recently announced $9.1 billion in new investments to cut pollution. Do you see opportunities in those initiatives for microgrids? If so, which?
Charles Berndt 17:16
I mean, absolutely, you know, those technologies that would be leveraged to run a micro grid, again, could be used to manage that carbon. And so you could, you could work with technology development, you could work with deployment of that technology, and they'll all be eligible for for this government funding to help, you know, you can just say, look, how you manage the carbon with this technology will definitely be a significant driver for an attractor, for any government agency wanting to invest in carbon reduction, and it has the benefits of increasing reliability and making everything much more efficient.
Rebecca Schwartz 17:56
Okay, Charles, thank you for joining us today. But, you'll be back here for part two of our discussion on micro grids where you'll also talk about distributed energy resources, among other related topics.
Charles Berndt 18:07
I can't wait.
Dan Seguin 18:08
Now, it's that time again, Charles, let's end on a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready to go sir?
Charles Berndt 18:18
Shoot!
Dan Seguin 18:18
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Charles Berndt 18:21
This is embarrassing, but I'm reading The Three Musketeers by Alexander Dumas. I just finished the Count of Monte Cristo in the fall. And I was like, blown away. It was so good. So I had to go to the next one. So it's, it's the Three Musketeers. Yeah.
Dan Seguin 18:39
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one?
Charles Berndt 18:44
I don't have one. But obviously, you're talking to an engineering and a geek. So, obviously, enterprise is the only answer to this question.
Dan Seguin 18:53
Charles, who is someone that you admire?
Charles Berndt 18:57
I'm gonna say my wife on this one. Yeah, she's, she's brilliant. She's stronger than me. She's, wonderful and patient and intelligent. And, ya, no, I, I admire her so much.
Dan Seguin 19:09
And lastly, mon amis, what is exciting you about our industry right now.
Charles Berndt 19:16
Change. Change. It's getting faster. People are more interested in it's the carbon emission conversation, the environmental efficiency, everything. Electrification of transportation; it's all converging on the utility industry. And the utility industry is poised for not only regulatory change, but technology change, and we're starting to see that with the people who are coming to work for us who we're attracting. We're seeing that in the in the level of dialogue that's happening out in the world, people are talking about us more, and that brings pressure, but I think it's exciting. And I'm really, really excited about the future.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:59
Well, Charles, we'll talk to you again on our next episode. If our listeners want to learn more about you, how can I connect?
Charles Berndt 20:05
The emails always there. I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah. Look me up.
Dan Seguin 20:10
Again, Charles, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun and that you'll come back.
Charles Berndt 20:15
Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
Dan Seguin 20:17
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
According to a survey conducted by Electricity Human Resources Canada, 48% of employees believe they increased productivity when working remotely. With that in mind, it’s no surprise to see many industries adopting a hybrid model where employees have flexibility around where they work—and why prospective employees are looking beyond salary when determining what’s important to them in a job. Michelle Branigan, CEO of Electricity Human Resources Canada, joins us to discuss how remote working will affect the energy sector’s workplace and workforce future.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back, has COVID-19 forever changed the way we think, perform and show up for work? There's been a huge workplace culture shift with more employees working remotely. Commuting has been possible for many years. But I think it's fair to say that there was reluctance on the part of many employers to implement digital solutions, such as video conferencing, digital sharing tools, and expansion of cloud based computing to facilitate the shift away from the office. Rebecca, did you know that, according to McKinsey and Company, COVID-19 accelerated three trends that may well last after the pandemic is over?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:21
Yeah. So the first and probably the most talked about trend is the hybrid remote work. Now, there's about 20 to 25% of computer based workers who could foreseeably work from home something like two to three days a week. That's almost five times the number of workers who were doing remote work before the pandemic. Second, not only have we become accustomed to the comforts of work from home, but we've also become accustomed to the convenience of home delivery. And I say this only based on all those Amazon packages that arrive at my door. Myself and others like me have probably contributed significantly to the growth of E-commerce and the delivery economy during the pandemic. It's just become so easy. And finally, companies are enlisting automation and AI to cope with COVID-19, and any other future disruptions. This could mean putting robots in manufacturing plants and warehouses and adding self service customer kiosks and service robots in stores.
Dan Seguin 02:23
And we haven't even touched on the great resignation of 2021. According to NPR, 33 million Americans quit their jobs since the spring of 2021. Is it about better pay, treatment, flexibility or perks? Or is it about something more like reevaluating what success, happiness and work life balance means?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:53
One thing is for sure, Dan, the pandemic has ushered in a new era that's changing the workplace and the workforce for the future, and the electricity sector is not immune.
Dan Seguin 03:03
So, here's today's big question. Can the energy sector reimagine where and how work is done to increase rescaling efforts? And is the sector looking beyond the pandemic to reimagine how and where work is done?
Rebecca Schwartz 03:23
To answer these questions, we have Michelle Branigan, the CEO of Electricity Human Resources Canada joining us on the program, also known as EHRC. It is the leading source of HR information for Canada's electricity industry. Michelle, thank you for joining us again on the show.
Dan Seguin 03:41
Michelle, since the pandemic and this new hybrid world of work, what changes in the approach have you observed from energy HR leaders?
Michelle Branigan 03:53
Hi, Dan. Well, um, I would say that the work life balance discussion has been reignited, and research is showing us that many employees, current and or future will have expectations that they can work at home at least part of the week. So that has implications of course, not just on the business side; you know, think about real estate and office footprint, but on corporate culture, so employee engagement, productivity performance management. The HRC has actually conducted a number of pulse surveys over the last two years with both employers and employees. And we hold regional roundtables across the country on an ongoing basis. And I think the single biggest learning is the recognition that a hybrid work model can work without jeopardizing productivity, because that, of course, was a concern at the start of the pandemic. And that's a fair one, right? Safety is always going to be paramount for electricity; employers spread into the culture of the industry, but at the same time, the work actually has to get done. And so it's a balancing act for today's leaders. You need to make sure that you're achieving your organization's business objectives, while still taking care of employees physical and mental health. When we actually spoke to surveyed employees last year we heard that are over a little over 45% believe that they had the same level of productivity when working remotely; 48% actually said they had an increased level of productivity. And only 6% said they were less productive. But, employers who are concerned about productivity, need to make sure that their staff have the equipment, the processes, the supports, in place to do their job well, and then managers are going to need to take a more non traditional approach to understanding productivity and how you actually measure it. So that was probably the number one thing. And then I think secondly, the pandemic has really accelerated all discussion about the future of work right? Worldwide, and in our industry, of course. This is something that really is top of mind .Employees have been very vocal in expressing that they do not want to return to the same way of working as pre pandemic. It's actually the preference of many in the workforce to continue to work remotely. And that's going to pose challenges and opportunities for HR leaders over the coming years. And then just finally, very quickly, what I would say is that this is probably a little bit less about approach and more about recognition that human resources has become an essential voice, alongside, you know, operations, finance, and you know, the other core units and responding to the challenges of the pandemic and how we work as an organization going forward as a sector. All business units have had to adapt over the last couple of years. But the pandemic has shown that human resources, or HR really is a key function in every business. For years, HR professionals have reiterated the importance of managing and recognizing HR as a strategic business partner, not always with success. And I think that has drastically changed.
Dan Seguin 07:10
So true, Michelle. Now, has the pandemic, and remote working taught us anything about our workforce?
Michelle Branigan 07:20
Yes, just to pick up on that second point, people want more work life balance, it's incredibly important to them, right. Many have mentioned increased productivity as a positive result of working remotely, but even more spoke to having more time back in their life to do the things that they enjoy. They don't want to spend time in traffic that could be spent, you know, walking the dog or going to the gym, picking the kids up earlier from school is a huge thing. So even more than salary, time continues to be the most valued commodity if you want to think of it like that. But at the same time, not everyone wants to work from home all the time. So you know, there's a different side to that whole conversation. And there are other challenges. A number of people that we spoke to reported feelings of isolation, difficulty with communications with their colleagues; with their peers, and, or, an increased or extended workload. And I think a lot of us would recognize that, you know, it's very easy for a lot of people to continue working outside normal work hours, especially during those lockdowns that we had right? There wasn't much else to do. When your laptop was at the dining room table, there's a tendency to continue checking and responding to those emails. So those lines got blurred. And that's not necessarily a good thing. Now, that might change more as we come out of the pandemic, and people have, you know, get back to their lives and have different things to do. But a lot of people don't have the luxury of a separate office or a quiet space to work in. So, again, that isolation piece, people mentioned that to us and the mental health toll that comes with that. So, you know, as we move into this new world, this, I don't think there's going to be a one size fits all approach. I think collaboration, communication, productivity, they're all elements that are going to have to be considered by individual employees, as well as culture and employee morale. So, whatever work model you choose, as an employer, engaging all levels of employees and talking to them about why you're choosing one model over another- I think that's incredibly important because it will really help to increase buy in around that, you know, the opportunity to, you know, that could be things like the opportunity to collaborate knowledge sharing, mentorship, that type of thing, but just really make sure to communicate with your audience. And so they know why you're making that decision.
Rebecca Schwartz 10:03
Okay, so, you kind of touched on this, how my one sized approach does not work. So what are some of the challenges and opportunities that flexible working presents to the electricity sector?
Michelle Branigan 10:14
Well, many of our employers have committed to implementing a hybrid model for their office workforce in some shape, way or form, this is a huge change, because it's now becoming almost a de facto scenario, where many, many, not all, but many organizations are looking to do this on a go forward basis. And that was pretty unheard of pre pandemic. One of the more common scenarios I've heard today, this or that three days in the office, two days a whole model or two, three, but not everybody's going to find that that works for their business, there may be a challenge down the line from a recruitment and retention standpoint, as some individuals do not want to come back to the office at all. Again, there's no one size fits all, some companies want to go completely virtual. I've talked to a few, not very many who want everybody back in the office full time, I really think the sweet spot is in the model. It is the hybrid piece. Again, you know, we asked employees about the challenges when working remotely. Almost half of them 45% said there was no challenges at all to working remotely. But a quarter of our respondents said that their top challenge was the loss of collaboration with the colleagues, right? And then there was other challenges. Again, not having a defined workspace, not everybody has the office, IT challenges, internet, Wi Fi, those sorts of things, interruptions, and loneliness. I thought that was very, you know, that's very telling, when people are talking to you about some of those things that are on the list. Why do people like working remotely, why is a hybrid work model and that opportunity to be autonomous, important? 83% talks about commute, people do not like to spending time commuting. Better work life, balance, time flexibility, more time out of work. Some people actually even prefer working on their own right. So there's all these different things in the mix. And at the time, when this big experiment was actually going on, you have to remember that kids were doing school from home, people were trying to- everybody was in a house, either in a house with too many people or maybe isolated on their own. When people are actually working remotely without the pandemic, it's going to be a little bit different people may even prefer it a little bit more. And then one of the other things that I think is important in the electricity sector, and this gets lost sometimes is that a large percentage of our workforce doesn't work in an office. Right? They work in the field. So our PLT's, our arborists, excetera. So how do you work with that? Hybrid models can be possible for field staff, but it really depends on their specific work. And, you know, how you can accommodate that. During the pandemic, we did see some innovation; companies did make some changes. So for example, people who had their own individual work vehicles were allowed to take them home. So they didn't have to go to the office every day to pick up the work truck. They only had to come into the office now and again to pick up supplies instead of every day. New technologies allowed people to adjust field work. So they were doing safety rundowns over Zoom, for example, every morning. And they were doing remote installations directed by contractors or other team members over video who were connected to onsite staff. So that innovation there may continue once we emerge from the pandemic, depending on the circumstances. But there is a reality that it's not going to work the same way. And I think there could be perceived inequities between office and field staff, right? Regarding that continued flexibility. And I think that is a key concern for HR managers. You know, we could see resentment from those who cannot avail of those remote work benefits. So you think for an example, an office employee who's able to work from home, if they have cold or cough or they're sick, or maybe their child is sick, or there's child responsibilities, versus a field staff person who does not have that option, and is going through their sick days or their vacation days, etc. So I think there is a challenge there, and we're going to need to spend some time on that.
Dan Seguin 14:49
This is really interesting, Michelle. Let's continue the conversation on challenges. What are the potential challenges attached to leading remote teams? What skill sets do managers have dispersed workforce need to inspire innovation and drive engagement across remote teams?
Michelle Branigan 15:09
I actually think this is going to be a key area of learning for managers, and supervisors of remote teams, you know, when employees are dispersed, and sometimes it's not in the city, even in the same city, it might be even in a different province, now. That manager has less insight into what the employee is actually doing. This links back a little bit to the productivity piece, I have read about some bias existing with managers believing that those working in the office do more than those who work at home. So I think we need to guard against that, right? Especially when we have seen that productivity hasn't dropped in the Canadian electricity industry, from the employers that we've spoken with. But, there was a US survey just in the fall of 2020, Gartner survey, and they looked at and spoke to about 3000 managers and 64% of managers and executives believe that employees who are in office are higher performers than remote employees. And 76 believe that in office workers are more likely to be promoted. That's something that I want to pulse more with our industry and something to watch. I think there's a potential issue there. Obviously. Some employers are turning to software to monitor remote working employees so that the manager can verify if people are working productively from home or working at all. Now, I think that practice is pretty controversial as an employer response to remote working; it's not one that I would endorse. I think if you have to monitor your team, to that degree, you have an issue of culture and morale. And then what type of message does it send to your employees? Right? You're not trusting them from the outset, that's going to impact your ability to hire, certainly to retain. And that's not a good idea, in a tight labor market. So I think managers need to presume intent, right, presume that the majority of your teams want to go to work to do a good job to be productive, and then give them the tools to make sure that they understand and meet their deliverables. So that means that while they're doing that, there also needs to be very clear communications about an individual's role and expectations about what that role actually is, right? So that's what's really important that we don't lose that make it very clear as to what is critical. And what is important. At the end of the day, no matter what channel you're using, team communications is really important, it's too important to be an afterthought. And ensuring that you have the right tools in place for collaboration is going to make sure that your team meets the objectives, they're being productive, they're hitting their deliverables, and supporting the organization. And, from a skills perspective, very similar to what they needed to do before, you know, empathy, very strong communication skills, listening skills, I think there will be more training required on a few things. Because managers are not just going to be expected to make sure that the task gets done, but they're the main point of contact within the organization, right? Trying to make sure that the employee feels valued, feels listened to, is engaged, feels part of the company. You know, managers may need to be trained to learn to acknowledge and respond to what they hear, be that responding to topics such as work overload, illness, childcare. I do think they have a lot on their shoulders. And I would say that it's going to be really important that managers, supervisors, you know, anyone with that leadership commitment, they're all under more pressure now than ever to support their staff. And so we need to make sure that we're also looking after the managers, right? I think that is incredibly, incredibly important.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:15
Thanks, Michelle. So with the post COVID landscape coming into reality, what does it mean for office workers or field workers? Specifically with respect to maintaining that focus on employee happiness, health, and safety?
Michelle Branigan 19:29
Well, mental health was a growing concern among employers, even before the pandemic, right? So I would say, when you look at wellness, that really has become a core business priority as a result of this pandemic. You know, we've seen a major shift from an employer's responsibility for their employees physical and mental health while on the job, to looking out for their well being both on and off the clock. And I think that leaders who are mindful of employee well being really can go a long way in helping individuals balance, you know, the mental health needs by being productive at the same time, and able to contribute their best towards organizational goals. At the end of the day, most individuals want to be their best at work, right? And employers can support that through a range of different initiatives. Whether that is defining flexible work hours and flexible work, maybe focusing on effort and results rather than time spent. You know, you want to make sure managers are not micromanaging. Are you judging people's contributions to work by the fact that they are in their chair from nine to five? Or are you looking at deliverables? And I think encouraging teams to establish and respect boundaries. Because quite often, you know, a few small changes can make a really large impact in supporting employees, especially when it comes to mental health. You know, opening that discussion, and having those sort of open supportive environments where people feel comfortable communicating their needs, that's a great place to start. And really looking at your employee engagement strategy. And asking your employees, what they value most as an employee is absolutely critical. Don't presume that you know what they want or value from you as an employer, or in the workplace.
Dan Seguin 21:38
Now, Michelle, let's move from wellness to culture. How can utilities be intentional about creating a strong, positive, and inclusive company culture? What are some best practices?
Michelle Branigan 21:54
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, Dan, in using the word intentional. There's really increasingly more pressure for organizations to be more diverse and more inclusive. And, of course, that is driven by societal forces, clear messaging from this next generation, that is values driven. They care deeply about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and they are paying attention to it. They are looking at your annual reports, they are looking at your board of directors, they're looking at how your organization is represented in the media. And I speak to a lot of young people, and it still amazes me how many of them are really taking this into account, when they're actually out looking for a job. So, cultural inclusion for me, anyone knows, that knows me well, knows that I say this all the time, it starts from the top down, right? It takes commitment, it takes intention, and it has to be genuine at the end of the day. I think some of the best practices include, again, engagement and communication, you'll hear these things, we echo these words, these themes a lot. Asking employees for feedback on how to improve your company's diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Quite often, there can be a disconnect between management or leadership, and everyone else in the organization, whereas, you know, whereby the presumption is that everything is fine, there's no bias in the organization, no one feels alienated or excluded because of their, you know, their race or their gender, whatever it may be. And that's a dangerous assumption that can be easily made, just because the problems are not visible. And not just by leaders, but by anybody working in the company, right? Who may not realize that, you know, their colleague is facing any sort of difficulty or challenge based on, you know, cultural background or identity or gender. So, communication is really key. For me, another big one, setting goals and measuring results, best practice. Absolutely. If we are going to affect that cultural change and we're going to implement good practices, we need to measure and report on the progress that we've achieved and the benefits to the company and to the individual. And I would say, sometimes, you know, it can be easy for organizations to capture these good news stories or the things that they've done and report it up, report to the board, report to the C suite. Feed the information to your employees, so that they can see that there's actual genuine commitment to change there, to creating that inclusive environment, and that their feedback or input is actually being heard. And don't be afraid of the mistakes that are learned along the way because, again, this goes to the genuine commitment piece. If a company is truly responsive to the needs of the people that are working there and are making these attempts in good faith, you will get there eventually, right? So really, really important to look at that. I am going to put in a shameless plug, Dan, for the EHRC's Leadership Accord on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. So that, of course, is a framework to help companies do this; it's an actual framework that will help leaders commit to real progress and change; identify where the gaps are in their own organizations, and then put in an action plan to actually address it over a couple of years. So, it's a really good tool. And please check that out if you want to get started. And then for others who want best practices, and maybe don't know where to get started, another place is our illuminate now toolkit that's on our website. And that has tips and tools and videos to support managers to develop or enhance their best practice DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), how to strategies, right? Because there's all sorts of things that an organization can do, from diversity on hiring panels, changing the language of maternity or paternity leave, to parental leave instead, in your policies. There are so many things to do to be inclusive, to make people feel like they belong to an inclusive workplace. More than we could cover, we could cover today, but there's lots of resources there on our website to help people on that journey.
Dan Seguin 26:25
Okay, you've touched on communications earlier, let's look at it through a digital workplace lens. What are organizations discovering about effective communication and collaboration?
Michelle Branigan 26:37
It's possible, you know, IT infrastructure really is the backbone of all modern workplace communications, right? When it goes wrong, we all notice very quickly now. And with the pandemic, we actually talked to organizations about this last year, about 30% of our employers told us they had to fast forward plans for better networking and connectivity. Over half had to increase their IT functionalities by setting up VPN or buying phones and that type of thing. Most organizations were very quickly able to ensure that video conferencing applications, like Zoom, were embedded as part of that day to day work environment. We've all seen instant messaging platforms like Slack, they've grown immensely in popularity, you know, it cuts down on emails when people are working remotely. And it also provides a forum for employees to engage. It's become sort of the equivalent of the watercooler right people telling jokes or sharing. So, it becomes an engagement tool, as well as a communication tool. But regardless of all the tools that are out there, you know, there's lots of things that you can use to bring your teams together and allow them to work efficiently. But I think the key to success is actually just utilizing those, they're a means to an end, right? To encourage active communication and maintain your company culture. And that really is no easy task in a digital environment. You know, you want to make sure that folks don't feel disconnected. I personally think it will be important to try and bring people together to meet in person, at some stage, be that twice a year at a company retreat, maybe it's once a week, or once a month, at an all hands on deck day. I've heard of people doing different things; it's going to depend, of course, on the size of your company, and how geographically spread you are. But one thing, you know, that does come to mind is when people work remotely, they're less likely to have social ties at the offices with colleagues who, over time, become friends, right? And that in itself erodes the connection that they have with the company. And it makes it easier for them to quit, as well. So you know, that can impact company culture, of course, and your retention, your retention strategies. And I think of how difficult it is for that next generation of new talent, young people who are just starting on their career, maybe in the first or second job, and they're not getting all of the benefits that exist by working in the office and having the opportunity to have a mentor, to have somebody that they can connect with and to listen to some of the conversations that take place in a professional setting and to the degree that they do in the office. So, I think IT is great, but it's how we actually use it that is going to make a difference.
Dan Seguin 29:39
Thanks, Michelle. But, now, this leads me to the follow up question. How can the energy sector ensure all employees across the organization, both office workers and frontline workers, have access to digital workplace technologies and feel engaged?
Michelle Branigan 29:59
Yes. Regardless of what you do right with your office first or hybrid remote first. Getting that technology to your teams to make sure that whatever way they're doing it as a group spread out, is really important. So make sure that they have access to those tools. I think you also need to be very transparent about expectations and performance. I know I mentioned that a little bit earlier. But, I think from an engagement perspective, there's a there's a few things that can be done. You know, we've all heard the expression death by PowerPoint. I think we're all turning into- I read this yesterday, and I thought it was great. Instead of zombies, we're all turning into "Zoombies", where we're all, you know, we're all worn out by the end of the day, because we all have so many of these Zoom meetings or video conference meetings that are absolutely exhausting. So, I think there is, you know, we need to look at how many Zoom meetings that we're having, are they really necessary, sometimes the telephone is an OK way to communicate. That old fashioned way of picking up the phone and talking to each other. Do you want to have cameras on? So, for some organizations, it's very important. Maybe for small meetings, you want to make sure that cameras have to be on and that's a requirement. But, maybe if it's a bigger meeting, and you have 100 or 200 people, you don't need everybody to have their camera on. And that's okay. So, the idea is you're trying to use these tools to make and make sure that everybody is engaged, and that they're not multitasking, that they're actually paying attention to what's going on on the screen. So, taking that into account and thinking about it carefully is really important. You know, when you do have meetings, and it's a meet, you know, you have people both in the room and virtually engaged, making sure that you're calling upon those who are not physically present in the room to speak. I think that's really important; not forgetting that there's people on the screen and just gravitating towards those who are who are actually around the conference room table, for example. Have a look and see, you know, are the people in the room, do they absolutely need to be in the meeting? Looking at how many video conference meetings are necessary. You know, we're all tired of the glitchy WiFi, telling people that they're muted, all those sorts of things, right? And they can be just exhausting. And they cannot replicate real life interaction. So, just looking at your policy of how you use the tools is very important. You know, I had a mixed meeting the other day where I had people from a couple of different provinces, on my own team, and the rest of us in the boardroom, where we had to share visuals. Nothing worked; the audio was terrible and so we went away with some lessons learned from the tools that we had and how we look to set that up so that it is a more engaging meeting for everybody concerned and productive at the end of the day.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:59
I'm wondering if you have words of wisdom or lessons learned from the past two years, dealing with the pandemic, and about communicating to, I guess, such a dispersed workforce?
Michelle Branigan 33:11
I would say, and you'll both like this, in the field that you're in, you cannot over communicate. Communication, communication, communication. I think no matter what kind of work situation we're in these days, whether it's working from home, the field, the office, a mix of all three of those, one thing hasn't changed. And that's that teamwork and collaboration are as important as ever. And that teams that communicate well are going to see better business results. They're going to be more innovative, they're going to be more productive. And, really, at the end of the day, when you have teamwork that's done right, it makes everyone feel that their contributions are valued. So, providing ways and means from people to be able to communicate with each other. And as a leader, communication is extremely critical to ensure that people feel engaged. And, again, it goes back, it goes back to culture.
Dan Seguin 34:19
Very interested in your thoughts on this next question, Michelle. There's a new phenomenon taking place. It's "The Great Resignation". Has the electricity and energy sector been affected? And have we surveyed the reasons why?
Michelle Branigan 34:35
So anecdotally, we are hearing that yes, it has affected, the industry. It seems like every other week I'm hearing about retirements all throughout the industry, Dan. I actually need to do and want to do, it's on my wish list, is to do some more labor market intelligence to see how that's actually reflected in the data because it's one thing to hear about it anecdotally. I like to see the data right. So what are companies reporting on? What are their attrition rates? Where are their pain points? And what are they seeing? And is it reflected in, you know, one set of occupations more than the other, for example, are more trades people leaving because they're in the field and they've had to, you know, experience and deal with COVID implications from a safety perspective, much more than somebody that is in that office environment. Again, it goes right back to what we spoke about at the beginning and some of those differences. So, I do want to do more data on that. I would say anecdotally, yes, we're dealing with issues. I don't know we're dealing with it to the same level that we're seeing in the USA? I don't know that Canada is seeing it there. We know that there's a tight labor market out there right now. The last Statistics Canada data, just in December, reported that the National Unemployment Rate had dropped to 6%. So that was approaching pre-pandemic levels. But, at the same time, I'm talking to everybody who is struggling to find employees right now, right? In all different types of occupation. But we have actually been talking about this for years in Canada, right? Many electricity employers are seeing that with that increased turnover on that demographic time bomb that I've been talking about, you know, all the baby boomers deciding to retire even earlier than planned. Anecdotally, due to the pandemic, a lot of times. And at the same time, younger employers have different expectations as to what they want from a career in a post COVID world and the type of company that they want to work for. And so losing talent in such a competitive labor market, it's really costly. It's quite time consuming. When you factor in the cost of recruitment, interviewing, onboarding. And then there's a problem there that those who are planning to leave may check out long before they actually give in their notice, right? So you do get a loss of productivity there that can impact others in the organization and contribute to reduced morale. So I think this is something that we will definitely be looking at over the coming months and years. What does the data tell us? Why are people leaving? And if they are going, is it because of some of the things I've mentioned earlier, such as the ability to work remotely, autonomy, flexibility? Or is it because they've decided that they want a completely different career path outside of the electricity industry? And this, there's one thing that I want to talk to employers about, is their plans on workplace models and hiring. Because if you remove the requirement to live near where you work, you do open up access to a wider pool of qualified workers right across the country, right? And that's going to be attractive to some companies in a tight labor market.
Rebecca Schwartz 37:59
So, given this "Great resignation", Michelle, how can the energy sector address the work life balance? And what about promoting a healthy work culture?
Michelle Branigan 38:08
Um, it's funny, we asked employees what their managers or employers could be doing to help during the pandemic. And I think a lot of this will transition over into this new way of working, the future of work, which is not really long in the future. It's here. Flexible work hours. These are the top five things that they mentioned to us: flexible work hours, better communication, making sure that people have the equipment, or the tools for work from home needs, mental health supports, and then socialization opportunities, right? All of those opportunities to engage with their colleagues. So, I think leaders and managers can start with a few strategies to do that. First of all, just remind your teams of the many mental health resources that are available to them. If you have an employee system program, talk about it. It's amazing how many employees forget that you have one of those because it's mentioned when you are onboard, and that's about it. Again, with many employees working from home, that average workday can easily bleed into additional hours at the dining room table. So, setting boundaries for your team to ensure that they are, you know, they don't continue to work well past their usual hours just because they can. Ontario, here in Ontario, the government has just enacted the right to disconnect policy. So, setting boundaries and ensuring that your team knows they don't have to respond to emails day and night. And recognizing that people may have different work schedules, depending on what it is that they do or their home circumstances. I think it's important to communicate that. When you're looking at, you know, retaining people- simple things, this is so simple, but recognizing your staff. Saying thank you can go an awful long way, even if it's for a regular task well done, right? Employee recognition, you know, can be a note of appreciation, or just even highlighting people in your internal newsletters. Leaders really need to set an example that will build a culture of recognition throughout the organization and making sure that employees, at the end of the day, feel appreciated for the work that they do. I think those are the sorts of things that promote a healthy work culture.
Dan Seguin 40:37
Now, Michelle, what can employers and leaders do to retain and attract employees in this challenging environment?
Michelle Branigan 40:48
So, um, I would say, there's a few things here, um, again, communicate. So, to keep good employers, you want to meet their needs and their expectations, and you want to understand what keeps them inspired, right? Senior managers have to understand the dynamics of their current employee base, the drivers of turnover. And remember that the things that initially draw people to a company, which may be pay and benefits, they're not necessarily the same things that keep them there. So, think work life balance, career development, performance management, company culture, that all becomes part of the equation, when an employee starts thinking "should I stay, or should I go"? So, looking at those sorts of things from a retention perspective is really important. And at the same time, you know, there does need to be recognition that the work needs to get done. Business is business, and, so, organizations, especially when it comes to remote working, will need coverage, not everybody may be able to come from home. In some instances, employees will leave no matter what you do. And in that case, it's better to have them gone than stay and be disengaged. I think it's really important, though- and it surprises me- sometimes many people, when companies don't do this, conduct an exit interview. To gauge why they left. And then use that data to reflect on any issues that may need to be addressed. So, I think that's something important that companies need to remember. When you're looking to retain employees or attract employees, not everything is about salary, but if you're at least in the ballpark, with the industry average, or if you're not in the ballpark, that could be a reason for losing somebody to the competition. So make sure that you're competitive, highlight the non monetary benefits to address competition from other industries. So do you provide opportunities for career development, or flexible hours, or the opportunity to be mentored? For example, does your benefit plan actually benefit your employees or only a portion of those? You know, it might be time to take a look at how flexible and useful at those plans are. And then who has access to flexible work? We've seen organizations where some managers allow their employees flexibility, while others don't. So I think the principle of fairness is going to apply here. Companies need to be consistent in whatever approach that they take. Another item, this is going to be incredibly controversial over the next year, Dan, and we're watching it closely, but it's the idea of reducing pay for those who work remotely. What happens when employees move to locations with a lower cost of living? Should employers lower their compensation, even though the impact of the employee's work hasn't changed? I think that is something that I'm reading about more and more, it's coming up more and more in conversations. And I think this is going to be very impactful from a recruitment and retention perspective. You know, think about an individual who has been working remotely and you know, they're now asked to come back into the office one day a week, they have a long commute, if there's only one day a week in the office or one day a month, they're more likely to be willing to put up with that. But if suddenly that changes to three day weeks, three days a week, well, then the question is, is the job and the commute worth it? Or is it more important to me, my home base, where I live, is that more important? So these are all the scenarios that, and the conversations that we're going to be having, with employees over the coming year. And I think one of the more innovative things that people need to do, as well, is really try and look at progressive HR practices to stay on top of what's actually motivating employees. So, you know, not just talking about exit interviews, but doing stay interviews. Asking people what will make them stay? What do they enjoy about working at your organization? And then developing retention plans based on workforce demographics, you know, because your your 22 year old may have a very different perspective to your 45 year old or your 55 year old. And so these are some of the things that I think are really important to think about, as we have multi-generations working in workplaces right now that have different values, not all different values, but some different values as they move through their careers.
Rebecca Schwartz 45:36
With all these changes in the workplace, such as values and expectations, can we future proof learning and development? And how can the sector better prepare the employees for this new future of work?
Michelle Branigan 45:48
I would say that it is critical to acknowledge that we're now in a state of continuous learning, it's not enough just to get your Engineering degree or to get your Journeyperson Ticket and think "that's it. I'm set for the rest of my career". Most people will have a number of different roles in their careers now. And so, as the technology advances and the industry evolves, the skills and competencies required to remain relevant in your job are going to increase. I see that right throughout all occupations. So, I think there's personal responsibility there on the part of the employee to understand the impacts and to evaluate their skill sets and see what they need to do. From the employer's perspective, oh my gosh, it makes absolute sense to support the professional development of your employees for so many reasons, right? Offering training and development opportunities. It's a great strategy to keep engagement high. But make sure it's relevant to employee goals, ask employees what they think would benefit them in their, in their, in their aspirations. Challenge workers by giving them more interesting work and stretch assignments. And really, you know, continuous learning and managing talent should be one of the key tactics that are discussed by your HR teams, to give opportunities to your employees, just to continuously develop. Whether that's through in house training, or support for them to do something, you know, external education, but show your employees that you're interested in developing a career path along with them. I think that's really, really critical.
Dan Seguin 47:25
Okay, Michelle, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Michelle Branigan 47:33
I am.
Dan Seguin 47:34
Okay, let's go. What are you reading right now?
Michelle Branigan 47:38
Well, I'm hooked right now by a series of books called the enemy. It's a post-apocalyptic young adult horror series. It's written by Charlie Hickson. The books take place in London after a worldwide sickness has infected everyone 16 and older and has turned them into creatures similar to zombies. Basically, all the adults are eating the kids. It's extremely gory. And it makes the pandemic look like a walk in the park. And it's really noted for the fact that it kills off any possible character. So it really leaves you on edge all the time. So, that's what I am hooked into right now. And I run into my 13 year old's bedroom every now and again, very, very upset that they've killed off yet another one of my favorite characters.
Dan Seguin 48:32
Now, Michelle, what would you name your boat? If you had one?
Michelle Branigan 48:37
Oh, my gosh, "Let Me Off". I'm not one for boats, Dan, I'm too claustrophobic and I feel like I should be doing other things. So, I'm great for an hour. But then after that, yeah, get me out of here and onto dry land.
Dan Seguin 48:49
Now, who is someone that you admire?
Michelle Branigan 48:53
Oh, I don't know how anyone right now could say anything but Ukrainian people at this moment in time, right? The bravery and strength and staying there to fight for their country. The fear and the strength that those who must flee, that have children and babies in their arms; it's just heartbreaking to watch. And just the strength that we're seeing coming from everybody in that, from that country right now. I think that's top of mind. For all of us.
Dan Seguin 49:23
So true. Moving on to the next one. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Michelle Branigan 49:31
Oh my gosh, Dan and Rebecca, I really struggled with this one. I think I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to magic. I cannot think of anything for this except maybe that I suspend all cynicism when I go to Disneyland. And just get right into it. I love it. I would go again and again and again. So that's, I think, the closest to magic that for me,
Dan Seguin 49:54
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?
Michelle Branigan 50:01
For me, not being able to travel home to my family in Ireland. And then more generally, travel. I love to travel. Reading and travel; film. Those are my things. I get itchy feet really quickly. And so, like many people, I just think it's that sense of frustration when you can't just get up and go. Italy is my favourite country in the world. I can't wait to get back there. But, other than that, over the last couple of years, you know, I have to say that I have counted myself very lucky. We have a comfortable house, we've got a nice garden, food on the table. And I really do think that there's a big difference between want and need. And I think as a society, we have to, I think, start maybe being a little bit more grateful for what we have.
Dan Seguin 50:43
Okay. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Michelle Branigan 50:52
For me, "Ozarks". Great acting, great writing. Absolutely superb. Loving it. And I'm looking forward to diving into the last six or seven episodes of "The Walking Dead". You might have got that reference from my reading material.
Rebecca Schwartz 51:10
Lastly, Michelle, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Michelle Branigan 51:15
Oh my gosh, I would say the change. Change. Everything that's going on. It fascinates me. It drives me. it's exciting. You know, we're all talking about net-zero. We're talking about electrification, low carbon, climate change, you know, what kind of world are we going to live leave for our kids and our grandkids? And everything that's going on right now, it's probably very easy to become pessimistic, when we see some of the things and some of the challenges. And you know, you look at all the fires and the floods and everything like that. But, I think our industry is really motivated to address some of these challenges. And so, the change is what excites me and how we get there.
Rebecca Schwartz 51:58
Well, Michelle, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Michelle Branigan 52:08
Go to our website, electricityhr.ca, a wealth of information there for folks. And, of course, I'm on LinkedIn, and always happy to hear from people. That's our, one of our jobs here and roles here is to talk to people about all these challenges and issues. And so, I love hearing from our industry folks as to the ideas that they may have to help us as we move this industry forward.
Dan Seguin 52:35
Again, Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Michelle Branigan 52:40
I did have a lot of fun. Thank you both so much, Rebecca, Dan, always a pleasure to talk to you.
Dan Seguin 52:46
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Canada becoming net zero by 2050 is a commitment made by the federal government, but there’s a lot of action needed at a community level before this can happen. Municipalities make up 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada, so does that mean achieving net zero is actually a grassroots movement? Tonja Leach, Executive Director of QUEST Canada, joins Dan and Rebecca to talk about the importance of championing communities and how one of the biggest keys to a greener future is getting people to buy into the world we want to create.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. You know, we've talked a lot on the show about Canada's goal to be net zero by 2050. But I've been asking myself lately, if achieving net zero is really a grassroot movement. I mean, there's a lot of action that needs to happen at the local level before Canada can achieve its goals. And since 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are from municipalities, before we can talk about the big national picture, we need to look at every community across our country, and how they can affect change at their level, and what kind of coordination and effort will it take.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:15
That's right. Without a coordinated approach, communities with all of their different socio economic realities, different landscapes and different local perspectives may implement different measures that may not be compatible with their neighboring communities. Or they may fall short of achieving the necessary results.
Dan Seguin 01:34
Did you know that hydro Ottawa is going net zero by 2030. And the City of Ottawa has committed to achieving net zero of its operations by 2040. Both of these are great examples of grassroots initiatives. So here's today's big question. How important is it to empower community champions and influence decision makers to continue to create the conditions necessary for communities to contribute to Canada's Net Zero targets?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:07
On today's show, our special guest is Tonja Leach, Executive Director at Quest Canada. They're a nonprofit that supports communities in their quest to reach Net Zero. Tonja is a sought-after advisor working with Canada's energy sector, three levels of government, and community builders. And she helps them essentially to transition to a more sustainable energy future. Tonja is also active on a number of committees, like the Energy Futures Lab Partners council and steering committee, the Clean Resource Initiative Network, and the Positive Energy Advisory council, among others. And we're really happy she's here to talk to us today. Hey, Tonja, welcome to the show.
Tonja Leach 02:55
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Dan Seguin 02:57
Tonja, as the executive director, maybe you could start by sharing with our listeners, what the QUEST organization is all about, such as maybe talk about your vision, your mission for Canada?
Tonja Leach 03:10
We're in the middle of updating our vision. So I'll give you the old version and recognize it will change slightly soon. So, our vision is that Canada's a nation of Smart Energy communities. And I say that's going to be updated, just because we've done some updating, you know, kind of tying things more closely to the net zero agenda. So there'll be some language changes to that. But the concepts and the principles still are accurate and remains the same. So, QUEST is a national nonprofit organization, and we support communities in Canada, on their pathway to Net Zero. Since we've been doing this since about 2007. And we facilitate connections, empower community champions and influence decision makers to implement efficient and integrated energy systems that best meet the community needs and maximize local opportunities. We develop tools and resources can be in stakeholders, rights holders, and advise decision makers, all with the goal of encouraging and enabling communities to contribute to Canada's netzero goals.
Dan Seguin 04:09
Okay, cool. What Critical Role do communities have in achieving Net Zero? How important is strong support and buy in from these communities?
Tonja Leach 04:21
Well, as I indicated, we work very closely with them. So maybe I have a biased opinion on this. But I mean, if you just look at the numbers, you know, communities are responsible for 50% of our energy use and about 50% of our emission. So that in and of itself tells you how important they are in achieving the Net Zero objectives that we're striving to achieve. So, Canada is going to have to rely quite heavily on communities to get there, but they require support and resources and they're not being supported or resourced in a way yet that they need to be really be able to play the impactful role that they can and should be playing. Many municipalities have been putting together community energy plans, community energy and emissions plans, you know, declaring climate emergency, I think there's over 500 communities in Canada that have now done that, and all the plans that go along with that, while quite aspirational, and I think that's a good thing, has really put municipalities in the driver's seat on energy. And that really has kind of flipped energy planning around a little bit, right. We know energy planning traditionally has been top down from the provincial level. But because they are playing such an active role in kind of dictating what that energy, their energy future looks like, it's actually put them in the driver's seat. So this is an interesting conundrum that we're facing right now. And it has led to a number of misalignments, you know, disconnects between what the province thinks about how energy is going to look in 2050, compared to what local governments think it's going to look like in 2050. And, you know, I think there's a number of stakeholders that are kind of being caught in the crosshairs of that at this point in time, and we need to be building better alignment across them. So they have a very critical role to play coming back to your question. But there's still a lot of uncertainties about how we actually leverage the, you know, that the role that communities have to play and how we enable them to do that.
Dan Seguin 06:17
Tonja, I'm curious, what are the low hanging fruits municipalities can take advantage of?
Tonja Leach 06:24
Yeah, I think this is an interesting one, I think one of the things that part of the uncertainty comes from the fact of not knowing who has what role or responsibility to play and when to play that card. But municipalities, just by their very nature, have a number of, you know, cards in their hand to play. They're responsible for land use planning, and we know that one of the biggest impacts on our energy use is land use, right? How are we moving around in our communities? How effectively and efficiently can we do that, you know, places, creating communities where you can live work, and play makes a big difference on the amount of energy that we that we need. And also, you know, making sure that we're kind of balancing, supply and demand. And if you think about that, from a thermal context, where is heat, waste heat being generated from, say, an industrial process, that can actually be leveraged in the system itself. And if you build communities in a way and plan communities in a way that you can take advantage of those, you're obviously that much further ahead. They also have responsibility on transportation, you know, whether that is public transportation systems, and we see lots of kind of hybrid systems coming in now as well. You know, I mentioned low carbon thermal enabling Net Zero buildings and Net Zero infrastructure development, and supporting renewable energy deployment, distributed energy resources. There's lots of opportunity there, although lots of challenges in that regard as well. So, there's lots of low hanging fruit that they can take advantage of at this point in time and kind of start to contribute to the outcomes that we're all collectively striving for.
Rebecca Schwartz 07:57
Okay, now, what makes QUEST's approach to supporting community netzero objectives unique?
Tonja Leach 08:03
Yeah, thanks. I think what makes us unique is, well, a number of factors actually, at the highest level, I'd say that we take a systems approach to kind of the energy transition more broadly speaking, not to kind of belittle the need for a sectoral approach, but we need both. And if we don't, my analogy here is is you can't rehabilitate a forest, if you only focus on the trees, you need to be looking at the entire ecosystem. So that's the approach that we take is kind of looking at it from an ecosystem, and how do you kind of maximize the efficiency of the entire system or rehabilitate the entire system. So that's kind of the at the highest level our focus. We're also unique in that were across Canada, so we can actually see what's going on in different jurisdictions and kind of share best practices and lessons learned between jurisdictions, which is also really helpful. And we're also focused on what I call the less sexy stuff. So as far as we're not necessarily talking about specific technologies. We are, you know, there's a recognition, I think it was the International Energy Agency says, we have 80% of the technological solutions, we need to get to 2050. But the challenge is really getting them deployed. And that's where we focus. So this is on, you know, governance structures, business models, regulatory structures, legislation, policy, all of those, you know, there's no ribbon cutting ceremonies or any of those things, right. But those are the things that I think are increasingly being recognized as the inhibitors of or the pressure relief valve that we need to address the need for going to not just achieve net zero, but be sustainable and net zero.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:48
And a quick follow up for you, Tonja, you recently published a 2021 impact report. What are some of the highlights from this report that you're most proud of?
Tonja Leach 09:57
Well, I'm not sure if it's actually called out in the impact report, but I will say that I'm most proud of my team. I think that the team here at QUEST, we're often told that we punch well above our weight. And I do believe that that's true. And they're just an incredible group of people to work with. So just want to call that out first and foremost. In the 2021, impact report, that was also the first year that we saw that kind of major first successes from a project that we have going on in New Brunswick, called the Smart Energy Community Accelerator. And coming back to my first comment I made here about our vision that's in its next iteration to be reframed as the Net Zero Community Accelerator. And it really is focused on building that local capacity and the results of that project were greater than we had anticipated that they would be. So there's, there's a lot of positive momentum there. And, you know, kind of we are taking that as where do we go next with that? How do we expand that to be a national program that supports both building local capacity that's needed. So the tools, the resources, the knowledge, etc., but also kind of adding another stream to that, which is focused on getting projects to the point of implementation. So project initiation, we'll call it. So we're really proud of the work that we've been doing there with communities directly. The other piece that I think I really want to call out, as well as the Innovation Sandbox projects that we've had on the go, and was referenced in that report, as well. And this is really addressing that issue, again, around the regulatory structure, you know, the regulatory structure that we have is not really designed for innovation. So how do you kind of build innovation into that, and the Innovation Sandbox work that we've been doing, which is a concept, the Innovation Sandbox concept, was actually first started in the financial sector, and has been in other jurisdictions around the world brought into the energy space. And so we're doing that here in Canada. I'm really proud of that work as well.
Dan Seguin 11:56
Now, with over 5000 plus communities with different political infrastructures, local concerns, and socioeconomic composition. Tonja, how can local perspective be captured and aligned?
Tonja Leach 12:12
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges we're actually facing today. I think there's many people know kind of what they and their own organization can possibly can contribute. But the alignment of all of these things is really the nugget that we need to crack. So I hate to say that we need deeper engagement, because we hear that so often right, and we're beyond just wanting to talk about things, we want to be doing things. But we do need to be engaging much more deeply and across multiple sectors more effectively. Because we need clarity on costs on trade offs on who's taking on what role, who has, what responsibility, what the timelines are, all of these things are unknown. And I think people are making assumptions about them at this point in time, and that's leading to the misalignment. So in order to get to the alignment, we have to be much more engaged with each other and working much more collaboratively. A great comment that I heard the other day, which was, we must stop the energy solution Hunger Games, right? This is not about anybody, you know, taking over somebody else's space, as in this is an end scenario, right? We need all hands on deck if we're going to get there and we have to work collaboratively to get there. And we have to be understanding and respectful of who's got what role and responsibility in the transition.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:45
So we hear you're helping municipalities reach reduction targets by enabling investments of local renewable energy projects and infrastructure. I'm wondering if you could just unpack this for me a little bit, and maybe give us some examples?
Tonja Leach 13:59
Yeah, so I would say that we enable investment by helping to streamline processes. So I'll give you an example of that. This is a few years ago now. But there was an energy utility in Alberta that was looking to or wanting to kind of build out solar. And they spent, you know, two years of their time in regulatory hearings, you know, trying to figure out the regulatory construct for this. And then it came time to kind of made it through all of that process. And it was time to actually kind of engage with the community to deploy their vision for the solar system. And because they hadn't engaged the community at the front end of this, the community was not very happy about where they had sited on the riverbed, the solar system. So that really stalled the process. So a lot of what our role and kind of my comment about streamlining the process itself is kind of making sure you've got all of the right stakeholders engaged at the right part of the process. And so that you don't run into these hiccups at the back end, that is just going to slow you down or stall the process. So it seems a bit backwards that you want to take the time the front end, but by taking the time at the front end, you've actually kind of relieved the issue that you may run into at the backend. So a lot of our work is really about kind of playing that coordinator and streamlining the process.
Dan Seguin 15:27
Thanks, Tonja. Great example. Now, from what I'm hearing, there's an incredible amount of momentum, around Net Zero pledges in the public sector, from governments around the world and from private sector as well. What are your thoughts around these Net Zero commitments from organizations? How do they differentiate spin from substance?
Tonja Leach 15:50
Well, I guess on the one hand, I would say that it's great that we're seeing the environment, climate change, climate action, sticking through what I would say, as a number of serious challenges. COVID, Black Lives Matter, Indigenous reconciliation, what's going on in Ukraine right now, the fact that this is still kind of remaining on the radar, I think it's a really positive sign, because I think it's been derailed many times over the past 30 plus years. So I think that's a very positive sign from my perspective on the momentum that we've got, we must maintain that momentum. And many pledges are ambitious. With a lot of like, you know, this is what we're going to do, but we don't know how we're going to do it, yet. And I think actually, in a previous podcast of yours, Bryce Conrad mentioned his moon shot. And, and I think that this is good to right, I think this is really important that we're putting a stake in the ground and saying "this is what we are going to achieve". Understanding we don't yet know how but we are smart people will figure it out. I think those are essentially what Bryce said. And this is good. But we've, I think what takes it from a spin to substance is action. And we also need to start to kind of define. So we need to start to define the how, of what you know how we're going to achieve that moon shot. But we also need to accept that it's not going to be perfect. And that's okay. We're going to make mistakes, we need to learn from those mistakes, we need to move on from those mistakes. We need to share the lessons that we've learned so that other people don't follow in our footsteps. And we kind of help everybody leapfrog down the road as it were. But yeah, we have to start to take action to take it from spin to substance.
Rebecca Schwartz 17:38
All right, Tonja, in your report, All Net Zero Pathways Begin with a Local Step, you speak of how we need to account for behavioral changes, and social acceptability to scale up net zero solutions. What do you mean by that, exactly?
Tonja Leach 17:53
Yeah. And what I mean is that we don't get to Net Zero without people. So we talk about Net Zero in terms of, you know, a federal objective, and we talk about it in terms of, you know, introducing electric vehicles into our grid and Net Zero buildings. But actually, you know, to maintain the momentum that we were talking about earlier, we need buy in from people. So people play a huge role. We also need people to want to live in a world that we're trying to create. So you know, bringing people along in that process is so critically important. They need to be under, you know, have understanding of the trade off, that will, no matter what we do come out of this, right? There's likely trade offs on costs, there's possibly trade offs on reliability, but we can accept those for the environmental benefit that we're going to, you know, achieve. But if we're not clear about what those trade offs are and people aren't accepting of them, then it becomes much more difficult to accomplish the outcome of net zero that we're trying to achieve. I think that, you know, people are instrumental in insisting on equity and Indigenous reconciliation as part of this transition. So this is not just about transitioning our energy systems, we have to deal with these social issues as part of that. And that actually is an opportunity. And we should be leveraging that as an opportunity. And we need to see I mean, at the most basic level, people need to be willing to walk or ride a bike or take public transit in order to reduce the emissions that each of us contribute to our society and globally. So, have a big role to play. And if we are, you know, forging down this path without engaging them and building the buy in along the way, eventually we're going to fall off our stool. So we need them, we need many people involved.
Dan Seguin 19:46
Now, Tonja, what do you think are the most promising and impressive carbon reduction and removal technologies from the perspective of maximizing the ability to achieve Net Zero by 2050?
Tonja Leach 20:01
Yeah, so actually I did, you gave me this question in advance. And I thank you for doing that. So I did a little bit of research because I do sit on the Clean Resource Innovation Network steering committee, and they've been, you know, using some federal government funding to support some really interesting technological projects. And one of the things that is often called out as you know, one of the bigger challenges we face is methane. And, you know, methane is obviously a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. And so it's one of those things that, you know, if we don't find a solution to that, then we're, you know, it's a harder process that we're trying to get through to get to Net Zero. So, there's a company called Econ Power, that has pioneered a technology called pulse methane pyrolysis. Don't ask me about the details of how it works, but it converts methane into hydrogen, and solid carbon, and it virtually eliminates CO2 emissions from the process. So I think it's those I'm just using that as an example. I think it's like those types of technologies that kind of can enable us to use and maximize the infrastructure that we've already developed. But, you know, helps to decarbonize those systems, because there's industries that are really challenging to decarbonize, right. And so, you know, we often reference like steel and cement and agriculture. And so if, you know, we need to be able to provide solutions that decarbonize those sectors as well. So I'll just I'll point to kind of those that decarbonize methane as a useful technology that I think, is maybe just on the early days of, you know, really being scalable and successful.
Dan Seguin 21:55
Cool. Okay. What are you most excited about when it comes to the vision and opportunities of Net Zero?
Tonja Leach 22:05
You know, to be honest, I think it's about collaboration, and what will come from that. I mean, as a society, I think we've all been pretty good about collaborating so far. But and there's more of that happening. But I think that, that for me is the exciting part. I think this is where, you know, really great ideas are born out of, you know, good collaboration. I'm really excited about, you know, much deeper energy system integration than we've seen so far. And there's many ways that that can happen through low carbon thermal solutions, distributed energy, resources, etc. So, anyway, yeah, I'm really excited about the collaboration component of this and how we, you know, collectively, bring ourselves together to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:56
Okay, so how are different levels of government develop synergies across sectors to create opportunities that will enable innovation?
Tonja Leach 23:05
I'm gonna come back to a comment I said earlier about the energy solution Hunger Games. That just needs to stop. Right. We've been pointing fingers for so long and saying, "my solution is better than your solution". So for me, it's it's really about shifting from, I would say, an overemphasis, I think, on kind of sectoral solutions versus looking at things from a systematic perspective. But I think that is a big piece. And then, because nothing actually works in isolation of other things. Right. And so it's how do we take that more systematic approach to it? So it is a recognition that this is an 'and" conversation, not an "or" conversation. I think that is one of the, yeah, so I'm not I don't know if I'm directly answering your question, Rebecca. But I feel like this is kind of the nugget that we have to solve.
Dan Seguin 23:58
This one, our listeners always enjoy. What are some of the biggest barriers and challenges you've identified in your roadmap to zero emissions?
Tonja Leach 24:12
Yeah, as I said before, I think that it's not technology. So you know, I think it is not technology and that new technology, it's being able to deploy the technology that we have at scale. And that comes back to you know, those soft things that I was talking about earlier, around policy alignment. How is the policy structure between the province and you know, the energy utilities, energy service providers, regions and municipalities? How is that aligning? How is that mutually reinforcing? Because right now, it's not, I would argue.You know, governance structures, more broadly speaking, clarity of roles and responsibilities. You know, we need all the various actors to bring their solutions to the table and coordinate them. If we're going to achieve the outcomes that we're looking for. So the biggest challenge is that coordination and really, you know, getting to the clarity that we need on cost, on trade offs, on roles, responsibilities, and making sure that we then have the governance structures in place that enable those outcomes.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:17
Thanks, Tonja. Now, what do you think is the biggest myth or misunderstanding about Net Zero?
Tonja Leach 25:22
That's a hard one. Lots of misunderstanding. I gotta throw out cost. I don't think there's, you know, I would say the industry as a whole doesn't really have a good understanding of what this is going to cost to get us there. And not that I think that it could, we could actually put a real number on it. But we don't know how much it's gonna cost. We don't know who's expected to pay. This energy transition is very different than some of the transitions that we've seen before this, because they were always adding a new resource base, I would call it, into the mix. Right? This isn't about that. This is about how do we decarbonize the one that we've got? And that is a very different, it's a different challenge. Yeah, so I think the biggest myth or, you know, misunderstanding is that perhaps that this is simple. And that it's not going to cost us. Because it is going to cost us and it's very complicated.
Dan Seguin 26:23
Okay, Tonja, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Tonja Leach 26:30
I'm ready! Yes.
Dan Seguin 26:31
Okay. Let's go for it. What are you reading right now?
Tonja Leach 26:36
I'm just cracking open Mark Carney's "Values". As I said, I'm just cracking it open. But this is what interested me in it. The title is "Values: Building a Better World for All" and I'm reading this, sorry, "Mark Carney examines the shortcomings and challenges of the market in the past decade, which he argues has led to rampant public distrust, and the need for radical change. The book touts tangible solutions for leaders, companies and countries". So very timely, I would say with everything that's going on globally right now. And I'm hoping to get some useful insights from that book.
Dan Seguin 27:10
Cool. What would you name your boat? If you had one?
Tonja Leach 27:15
I don't have one. But my grandfather had one and his name was "Pipit", and I would have to choose that same name. The name is actually a seabird and the class of boat was a Seabird. So that's the correlation.
Dan Seguin 27:30
Okay. Moving on. Who is someone that you admire?
Tonja Leach 27:35
Oh, gosh, I think that's changed for me in the last week and a half. The President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, how could we not say that I admire I mean, just the way he has conducted himself throughout the last week and a half; stood up for his citizens, you know, kind of rallied the world around them and their challenges. Yeah, I truly admire what he's doing right now.
Dan Seguin 28:01
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Tonja Leach 28:08
Okay, this is a funny story. We were driving in a snowstorm at night, maybe a month ago or so on a dark road, sounds terrible. And a car went flying by us and in the cloud, of, you know, snow that kicked up off the road. And then when it settled back down, the car was gone. And we were on a dead straight road, there was no tail lights. It was just gone. And I have, you know, both my husband and I looked at each other, like, where did it go? Is it in the ditch, it's just gone. And still, to this day, it has just gone no idea where it went. So that's a disappearing act.
Dan Seguin 28:46
Okay, Tonja, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?
Tonja Leach 28:53
Oh, gosh, okay, um, well, I will start to say that I come from a place of privilege, and that I own my own home, I have my family. We've all been safe through all of this. So I'll start with all of that. But I would say, and I will also say that QUEST was a virtual organization before this, so that certainly helped as well. But I would say the hardest thing is transitions. Transitioning from work to home is literally the length of time it takes me to walk down a hallway. So you know, being able to shift gears from your work mind to mom mind, in that very short period of time. And obviously, when my kids were learning virtually at home, there was zero transition there at all right, it's kind of like double, you know, kind of playing multiple roles all at once. So I would say that's been the hardest thing, but by no means is that hard compared to what a lot of people have been through.
Dan Seguin 29:51
Now. This next one is pretty cool. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?
Tonja Leach 30:03
I think I'm playing catch up on this. So we at QUEST, we often like to share some of the great stuff that is on Netflix or other streaming channels. But I'm catching up right now on "The Witcher", and I'm quite enjoying "The Witcher".
Dan Seguin 30:16
And lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now, Tonja?
Tonja Leach 30:21
Well, I would say that despite the challenges that we face on, you know, figuring out who's got what role and what responsibility; never has it ever been as exciting time in the energy space as it is now. I mean, it's challenging. But that brings excitement to that, you know, to the mix. So yeah, I would just have to say that, like everything, really everything about what's going on right now, but yeah, I'm, you know, yeah, this is this collective objective of achieving a sustainable Net Zero future is just, it's inspiring. And, yeah, it's really exciting to see how everybody's trying to figure out how we come together to achieve that outcome.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:12
All right, Tonja, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Tonja Leach 31:23
Yeah, great. So you can connect with us through our website, www.questcanada.org. That's probably the fastest and easiest way; you can reach out to QUEST at info@questcanada.org. And I will even throw it out there, you can reach out to me directly TLeach@questcanada.org.
Dan Seguin 31:41
Again, thank you so much for joining us, Tonja. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Tonja Leach 31:46
I certainly did. This was a lot of great questions. And thank you for the opportunity to be here and share my thoughts with you.
Dan Seguin 31:53
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
The push to “electrify'' everything as a way to meet Canada’s net-zero goals is strong, but is it really the answer to everything? Should we start looking towards energy efficiency ahead of electrification? Robert Hornung, President and CEO of Canadian Renewable Energy Association, joins this episode of thinkenergy to discuss the benefits of using solar and wind energy to help decarbonize the electricity grid. He also enlightens us on how investing in renewable energy has the potential for significant job creation across Canada, and what a national clean electricity standard could look like.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co-host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:32
On today's show, we're going to talk about renewables and the role that they play in reaching Canada's Net Zero targets.
Dan Seguin 00:39
The journey to net zero is one that will take us down a long and winding road with plenty of bumps, potholes, twists, and turns. But what about the scale and speed at which we should go? A recent report says that Canada is currently not on track to meet its targets.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:01
But the most pressing target is the one that Canada has set to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40 to 45%, below 2005 levels all by 2030. But what's needed to accelerate electricity, decarbonisation and increase production for a cleaner national electricity grid? Is it renewables like wind, solar and energy storage?
Dan Seguin 01:25
Now, Canada's electricity system, like most systems around the world, was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to consumers. That's it. But as technology evolved, so has the expectations of Canadians and the demand to update our electricity grid to be two way interactive system. This includes supporting electric vehicles, energy storage, smart grid technologies, smart home technologies, home generation, and a host of other innovations. Rebecca, did you know that there is now a push to electrify everything? Virtually the entire auto industry has moved its investments in research and development to electric vehicles. Climate plans in cities, provinces, and countries are calling for radically improved energy-efficiency in buildings and the use of electric heat pumps to heat them. That could mean that we'll need twice as much electricity by 2050 as we do today. To get there, we need to expand our renewable fleet - tenfold.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:44
Via its report entitled Powering Canada's Journey to Net Zero. The Canadian Renewable Energy Association has issued a wake up call - a call to action for governments, utilities, regulators, electricity system operators and industry. To get Canada started on the path to meeting its commitment to net zero by 2015. Canada's electricity grid is the root directory of the Canadian economy, it will be very hard for other sectors to reach net zero if the electricity they use produces carbon emissions.
Dan Seguin 03:19
So here'stoday's big question: Is solar, wind and energy storage, the most economical way to decarbonize the electricity grid, and help Canada reach its netzero goals. And to help steer this conversation and a clear path. We've invited Robert Hornung, the president and CEO at Canadian Renewable Energy Association. His association engages Canadians to enable the responsible and sustainable deployment of wind energy, solar energy, and energy storage solutions to power Canada's energy future. According to Robert, there is no greater threat to our planet than climate change. Renewable energy is part of the solution. And it is also a great growth opportunity for Canada's green economy future.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:18
Robert, thank you so much for joining us today. I guess we'll just jump right in with our first question about your vision document Powering Canada's Journey to Net Zero, which talks about a wake up call - an urgent call to action for governments, utilities, regulators and the electricity industry? Wondering if you can unpack this for me and for our listeners?
Robert Hornung 04:41
Certainly. I mean, we produce this vision document because of, frankly the threat that we all face because of climate change and trying to identify and quantify the role of wind energy, solar energy and energy storage and helping us to address that challenge. And I mean, the challenges is a significant one. I meam, Canada has made a commitment now to move to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. So essentially 100% reduction in emissions from today. And between 2005 and 2019, emissions only fell by 1%. So our vision speak about an urgent call to action. Because it's clear, we need to dramatically accelerate the scale and the speed of our efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, if we're going to have any hope at all of meeting those targets. And from our perspective, it's well understood that we're going to need a significant increase in the use of wind, solar and energy storage if those targets are to be achieved.
Dan Seguin 05:41
Okay, Robert. You've said that wind energy, solar energy and energy storage will be at the core of Canada's energy transition, but needs to expand tenfold? What makes renewables at scalable solutions to meet the electricity production required by 2050?
Robert Hornung 06:06
Well, I think first off, we have to sort of look to some of the research that's been done different studies that looked at what are the pathways to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions? We just said it's an enormous challenge, how do we get there. And those studies consistently show that to get to net zero, you have to first and foremost decarbonize electricity production, so that you're not producing greenhouse gas emissions from electricity anymore. And then you have to expand that electricity production, because you're gonna want to use that electricity to substitute for fossil fuels in areas like transportation and, and buildings and an industry. Now, another thing that those studies consistently show is that the majority of that new electricity that we're going to need is going to come from wind and solar. And why is that? The simple reason is because wind and solar are the lowest cost options for new electricity production in our world today. And our vision developed an illustrative scenario, which is consistent with the findings of these netzero studies, which sort of assumes we're going to need to double electricity production, we assume that two thirds of that new electricity production is going to come from wind and solar. And that leads us to the calculation then. That that means you have to expand wind and solar has to be in Canada tenfold in the next 30 years. And that's why it's an urgent call to action. That's a mammoth task. It's achievable. But we have to get started now.
Rebecca Schwartz 07:31
Now at the top of your to do list for Canada, you start with the decarbonisation of our country's electricity production by the year 2035. Could you expand on why you feel this is critical to the 2015 zero timeline?
Robert Hornung 07:45
Yeah, sure. And I should start by noting that Canada has actually made a commitment to move to a netzero electricity grid by 2035. And that's consistent with guidance that's been provided by the International Energy Agency, which in looking at pathways to netzero concluded that if industrialized countries are going to get there by 2050, they need to decarbonize grids by 2035. And why is that? Well, it's because at the end of the day, when we're talking about climate change, we're worried about getting to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Yes. But we're also worried about the cumulative emissions that are going to be produced between now and 2050. It makes a big difference if we're steadily reducing, as opposed to just dropping off at the very end. And in that context, if you recognize the importance of electrification, in terms of moving to net zero, the sooner we have a clean decarbonized electricity grid, the sooner we can benefit from the actions taken to electrify transportation or to electrify buildings, and we can maximize the emission reductions associated with that. So that's really what the driver is to say, do that now because it pays off in multiple ways, because we also ended up being able to reduce emissions and other sectors more quickly as a result.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:02
Now, just a quick follow up - you know, in the report that Canada is not on track yet, and that there's little discussion about scale and speed. What needs to happen ASAP, so we don't fall behind.
Robert Hornung 09:15
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll just be first maybe a little bit about that scale, speed and scale. You know, we talked earlier about needing to grow wind and solar tenfold in the next 30 years. What does that mean? So we've looked at that, and we said, well, that means that for the next 30 years, every year, we would have to build wind and solar out at a rate that's eight times faster than the average rate we've been building it out over the last five years. And the later we get started, the more we have to build after that, and it becomes even more challenging going forward. So there's a real driver and a real need to move quickly and get started on this process. And so as we mentioned earlier, so we've identified a to do list terms of work we need to do to enable that. And it has a number of different factors. We need to look at putting in place foundational policies that sends signals to investors about the direction we're going in and provides them with confidence that they can proceed with investments. We need to reform electricity market structures and regulatory frameworks to adapt for the introduction of significantly more renewables in the grid. We need to build new electricity infrastructure, if we're doubling the size of the electricity grid, we need new infrastructure. We also need to accelerate our efforts towards electrification so that there's demand for this renewable electricity when you're putting it out into the grid. And finally, we need to put in place processes that actually allow us to procure that new renewable electricity going forward. In Canada, we have massive, untapped wind and solar energy resources. So it's not a question of do we have the resource we do? It's, can we capitalize on it and mobilize quickly enough to be able to take advantage of it?
Dan Seguin 11:03
That's a great segue. In your view, how can we decarbonize electricity to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in Canada's transportation, buildings, and industry sector?
Robert Hornung 11:16
I mean, I think we're already starting to see some real evidence of this transition occurring, although we're at an early stage. So in the transportation sector, everyone's aware we're moving towards a world dominated by electric vehicles in the future, so you see it in the choices made by auto manufacturers, consumers, etc. Going forward. But it's really more about electric mobility. You also see a growing number of e-bikes, for example, going forward. We see increasing investments in the electrification of public transportation. So, there's a real drive there in terms of the transportation sector. In terms of buildings, heat pumps, are going to be critical as a technology that allows us to reduce our reliance on natural gas for heating purposes going forward. And within industry, within heavy industry, we already see announcements being made from steel producers who are switching to electric arc furnaces, the aluminum smelters, that are starting to electrify. And across all of those areas, electrification is not the answer for everything. There are applications where electricity is not going to be the solution. But for many of those applications, you can actually use clean electricity to produce hydrogen, green hydrogen, if it's produced from renewable electricity. And that green hydrogen can then be used to support things like freight transportation, or long distance transportation, or other industrial processes. So, electricity really will have a central role to play. And again, we're starting to see that transition occur. But again, we have to accelerate those efforts, extremely if we're if we're going to achieve our targets.
Dan Seguin 12:53
Okay. Now, Robert, can you expand as to why it's so critical to rethink Canada's electricity infrastructure investments, and work to minimize the cost to expand electricity production? What is the low cost advantage that renewables have?
Robert Hornung 13:13
Well, I think, you know, I think we have to start from a recognition that when we're talking about doubling electricity supply, we're going to need more infrastructure to move that electricity around. But we also know that electricity infrastructure, like transmission is expensive. It takes a long time to build. It's complicated in terms of getting all the approvals you're going to need and stuff to do that. And so our first priority actually has to be to try and use our existing infrastructure more efficiently. And in that sense, right now we design our transmission system so that it's able to serve us when we have our highest electricity demand. So, at peak times that it can do that. We're only at peak times for a small amount of time, which means most of the time our transmission system is actually underutilized. So, how do we increase the efficiency with which we use that? That's where we can use a whole range of technologies, distributed energy resources, energy storage, that can help us to shift that peak time, such that we're able to use that transmission resource more fully and more consistently going forward. And we call that non-wires alternatives, in terms of looking at options instead of building up and transmission. And that's going to be really important going forward simply because as we look at the scale of the transformation we need to move towards netzero. We want to do everything we can to reduce costs to go forward and do that. And those distributed energy resources can play a really important role in helping us to reduce those infrastructure costs.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:51
So Robert, how can Canada modernize its electricity, markets and regulatory structures to enable the lowest cost pathway to grid decarbonisation and expansion?
Robert Hornung 15:02
So I think the first thing we have to recognize is that our electricity markets and our and the regulatory structures in the electricity system and regulatory frameworks are really designed for the electricity system of today and of the past. And the electricity system of the future is going to be different than the one of today. And it's going to be different because we have a whole range of disruptive technologies entering the electricity sector, just as we've seen in many other sectors across the economy. And those disruptive technologies are fundamentally transforming our electricity system. We're shifting away from a system which used to be a one-way system where you had a big generators and power over transmission line to a user to a system now where it's a two way system, where users also generate electricity. And so electricity is flowing back and forth across the system. And our regulatory frameworks weren't designed with that in mind. And what we find now is that although these the introduction of these new disruptive technologies, whether it's solar energy storage, or smart grid technologies. The introduction of these different technologies introduces more complexity into the system, but it also increases our options and gives us a much broader range of tools, which we can use to provide the services that we need to have to ensure an efficient and reliable grid. And so when we look forward at how we need to reform electricity markets,and regulatory frameworks in the future, we want to do is we want to capitalize on that, on those new disruptive technologies. And want to remove barriers to their introduction, we want to ensure that they have the opportunity to participate in the electricity system. And then we also want to ensure that we're setting up the system so that there is competition to provide services, and that at the end of the day, you know, if we have five different kinds of technologies from provider liability service, that's great! Let's choose the lowest cost one and move forward. And so it's really a tremendous benefit that we're seeing here. And again, a lot of disruptive technologies we've seen in other sectors are doing the same sort of thing, right. They're providing an opportunity to reduce costs and be more efficient going forward. Same things happening with electricity. And in fact, I would argue that in the electricity sector, you know, our biggest challenge, in some ways is not the technology challenge, in terms of how we can decarbonize the grid and move forward. It's the regulatory challenge and the market framework. And that, in that we have technologies that we can't fully implement, deploy and utilize at this point in time, and that's what we need to adjust.
Dan Seguin 17:43
Now, Robert, you've mentioned that Canada's wind, solar and energy storage industries are up for the challenge, and are eager to start building and delivering significant new capacity required to enable Canada to achieve its netzero goals. What's the next step to kick start this?
Robert Hornung 18:04
Well, I mean, the true answer is there's no single next step. There's a whole series of next steps, right. In terms of moving forward as we outlined in order to do this, but I think a key fundamental one, is putting in place the sort of cornerstone policies, I would call them. The ones that send signals into the marketplace and to investors that say, this is the direction we're moving, you can count on the fact that we're moving in this direction, and therefore you can make investment decisions based on that. And two examples of that: So one is the concept of the clean electricity standard, decarbonizing the grid by 2035. If there's a requirement in place, a legal requirement that the electricity grid is gonna have to be decarbonized by 2035, that sends a very clear signal to investors, we better find the lowest cost way to do that, and you start exploring those options. Carbon pricing is another one. And we have in Canada, we do have a carbon price in place, we've got a direction sort of outlined in terms of where that price is going to 2030. It would be useful to have a longer term perspective on that for investors. And the other thing that's critical is we need to make sure that that carbon price is actually having an impact on decision. So in the electricity sector, specifically, the way the carbon price framework is designed federally, existing natural gas facilities are essentially fully sheltered from the carbon price. So they really have no incentive from the carbon price to actually go and seek greater efficiencies or to consider alternatives. And so we need to ensure I think, within the electricity sector, that if we have a carbon price that everything is exposed to it, and you're getting that signal and that we have clarity as to how that signal is changing over time. I think if we have those fundamental policies in place, then that provides an incentive for people to start thinking about building infrastructure people to start thinking about how we reform regulartory frameworks, those foundational policies sort of get the ball rolling.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:04
Okay, great. So what does a national clean electricity standard even look like? And why is it so important? And can you talk a little bit to some of the biggest barriers for collaboration?
Robert Hornung 20:16
Yeah, I mean it's fundamentally, I guess, at its heart, it's a simple tool. It's setting a standard for electricity generators as to how much greenhouse gas emissions they can emit. And I'm sure that standard will be set in terms of how many, you know how many greenhouse gas emissions you emit per kilowatt hour, megawatt hour of electricity produced, and presumably, it will be designed so that number declines steadily and approaches zero by the time we get to 2035. So, you know, that's the federal government can put in place a standard like that, and it's going to apply across the country. How that's actually implemented, will vary everywhere. Every province has a unique electricity grid, unique set of electricity generation today, a unique set of options for future electricity generation. So the pathway to get to net zero in the electricity grid is going to differ from province to province. We do know that if provinces do more to collaborate, if provinces do more to interconnect their electricity grids, it will provide each of them with more options in terms of trying to move towards net zero. And generally more options means more flexibility and ways to reduce cost. So collaboration in that sense, is quite important in terms of, again, trying to seek out the lowest cost opportunities to meet the objectives that we're setting.
Dan Seguin 21:47
Okay, you touched on this earlier growth. Let's now look at the potential for growth. And are distributed energy resources poised to provide increased opportunities for homeowners and small businesses to demand on site, renewable energy generation. Any examples you could share with us?
22:10
Yeah, well, I mean, to start, I would say that, yes, there's significant potential. I would say actually enormous potential for growth in terms of the distributed energy resources going forward. And I think we see that in terms of the growing number of,businesses and industries that are looking at self generation as an option for electricity going forward. And that's being driven by multiple drivers, it could be driven by environmental commitments, in terms of, you know, corporate commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions going forward. It can be driven by economic factors, people looking to avoid a grid electricity costs by sort of producing their own electricity going forward. It could be driven by a desire to increase resiliency, in the event of sort of issues with the grid, that you're still have power and are able to move forward. So I think we see a growing number of companies sort of exploring and seeking out those options. And I think you'll also see a growing number of jurisdictions actually trying to facilitate that going forward. For example, Alberta, earlier this year, issued a program to provide some incentives for businesses to adopt sort of on site solar. They were fully utilized within, I think ,the first three months. There was tremendous demand for them going forward. So I don't think it's a question of if we're going to see distributed energy resources play a significant role. I think it's a question of when we're going to see. And I think the when comes back to these other questions that we talked about. When are we able to remove some of the regulatory barriers that prevent either the deployment of these technologies or the ability to sort of receive economic value for the services those technologies provide to the grid? I think it's also going to require, however, before we can expand and in a large way. For electricity system operators, it's going to be critical that they have a clear understanding and a sense of what is happening with those distributed energy resources. So, you know, the electricity grid operator has one of the toughest challenges of all trying to ensure that supply and demand is matched all the time and supply and demand are both changing all the time. And if there's a set of generation out there that you don't actually have a vision of and you don't know if it's going up and up, or anything like that, that's a problem. And we need to do some significant infrastructure investment to ensure that electricity system operators have insight into what's actually happening at the distribution level. And also the ability, potentially, to manage what's happening at the at the distribution level. I mean, smart grid technologies, again, are giving us a tremendous capability to say, you know, examples, let's reduce electricity demand by turning everybody's thermostat down by half a degree, or something like that. Those sorts of things. So there's, there's, again, ensuring we've got that infrastructure in place that allows that to take place is going to be critical. But I think if we remove those sorts of barriers and put in place those enablers, you'll see fantastic growth, I think in the sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:27
Now, as solar storage and wind power come closest to meeting three key energy, consumer priorities - those being:cost, effectiveness, decarbonisation and reliability- What role will they play with micro grids and self sufficiency? And what's the ultimate renewable energy future that you envision?
Robert Hornung 26:01
I think we're going to see significant growth in these technologies at both the utility scale. So large wind farms, solar farms, and also on the distributed side. And that also includes then within microgrids, and things like that as well. But even though these technologies are going to be core and central, in terms of enabling us to move to net zero, it is part of a broader package. You know, when we're talking about moving to net zero, frankly, the first thing we should be talking about is energy efficiency. And we should be working to ensure that we minimize the amount of energy that we actually need in the first place. Then once we've done that, we think okay, well, then let's use the lowest cost, non emitting energy we can. And that's where wind and solar are going to come in and play a significant role in that regard. But then, again, you're going to say, 'okay, well, how are we going to manage that?' Well, we'll need other technologies like the smart grid technologies that allow us to effectively integrate wind and solar and ensure reliability of the grid going forward, because wind and solar are variable sources of generation. They add, again, some more complexity for system operators in terms of how we do this. And we need technologies in place that can help to facilitate that. So you know, we've talked already about the fact that the future electricity system is going to look pretty different from the electricity system of today. But at the end of the day, I guess in terms of a vision of it, I think renewables will be at the heart of that system for for two reasons. One is the scalability of the technologies themselves. You can actually have a single wind turbine, or a single solar panel, or a giant wind farm or solar farm, so they can be applied in all of these different applications. Their cost - So we've seen a 90% decline in the cost of solar. In the last decade, we've seen a 70% decline in the cost of wind in the last decade. It's not going to continue down at that rate going forward, we do expect to see some more cost declines. But there's absolutely no one out there who will say there's going to be something cheaper that comes along as we move towards 2050. And that's why it's going to again, play a pretty central role in terms of us moving forward. So, I as I said before, I think these technologies will be the core and the heart of the new electricity system going forward. But they aren't the whole story. We still need those technologies to partner with other technologies to enable and ensure that we're providing an electricity system that's reliable, and affordable and clean.
Dan Seguin 28:37
Okay, now, let's tackle something we haven't covered yet. How about we take a look at job creation? Robert, with these investments in wind, energy, solar energy and energy storage, create significant employment opportunities in Canada? Where do you foresee the biggest gains?
Robert Hornung 28:59
Yeah, when we did our mini vision document, or sorry, our vision document, vision 2050 document, we determined that if you were to increase wind and solar energy production tenfold over the next 30 years, that would create about 28,000 direct and indirect person years of employment annually. So, it's over 800,000 over the over the 30 year period. Now, many of those jobs are in the construction of facilities. So they're not permanent jobs, their jobs that are associated in construction. You do also create a significant number of jobs in operation of those facilities going forward. And again, you know, the job creation potential of the technology space differs a little bit by application as well. Where you're going to see the most jobs created, at least on a per megawatt basis, we'll be with distributed solar. And some studies done recently that have argued that for every megawatt of distributed solar generation that you put in place, you create about 35% person years of employment, so there is significant job creation potential associated with these technologies. We also have, as a country, some significant opportunities associated with these technologies as well. We're starting from pretty strong place globally, more than 80% of Canada's electricity is already non emitting. So we've got a good head start on much of the rest of the world, if we can move quickly to get to 100%. Non emitting, we'll have gained knowledge and expertise that will be sought around the world, because everybody's gonna have to move in this direction. The other thing is that our nearest neighbor, the United States, is going to be challenged to move to net zero, their electricity grid is much more carbon intensive than ours. And the export of clean Canadian electricity could also play a very significant role in helping the United States to meet its goals and objectives. So there are economic opportunities associated with that as well. So really, we've got a tremendous resource that's untapped for the most part across the country. One of the great things about wind and solar is that it's actually available in every part of the country. So not restricted to a certain province. So there are opportunities really across the country for economic growth and development. And because these are decentralized technologies, these opportunities will also play out at the level of communities across the country. And, you know, we've see a growing number of municipalities and communities with an interest in being partners in renewable energy projects going forward in seeing these projects, built to meet their own objectives, but also to secure the economic benefits associated with those projects. So it's a really tremendous opportunity.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:42
All right, Robert, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready? All right. Now, Robert, what's your favorite word?
Rebecca Schwartz 31:54
Chocolate? Because it's a word that always makes me smile.
Rebecca Schwartz 31:57
What is one thing you can't live without?
Robert Hornung 31:59
My family. It's actually the most important thing in my life, ao I would say that.
Robert Hornung 32:03
What's something that challenges you?
Robert Hornung 32:04
I would say something, which I guess probably most people would say is that it's finding the balance between competing priorities, it's a challenge everyday.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:15
Okay, now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Robert Hornung 32:19
The ability to heal people.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:21
And if you could turn back time, talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell them?
Robert Hornung 32:26
Don't be stressed about what you're doing when you're 30. Because you're inevitably going to get it wrong, and have faith that you're going to find your path. And that it's going to be informed by a bunch of things you haven't even thought of yet.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:42
Okay, this is the last one. What is exciting you about the renewable energy industry right now?
Robert Hornung 32:48
The potential! I mean, its potential is enormous. And, but, you know, it's, it really does require us to get started now, to sort of capitalize on that. And so, you know, one of the things in our in our vision document, you know, we sort of conclude by saying that the time to act is now and we need to act together. And that's true, whether it's between federal and provincial governments, provincial and municipal governments, different technologies. We've got a massive challenge in front of us. We've got all the reasons in the world to succeed and meeting that challenge. And we need to get started yesterday.
Dan Seguin 33:29
Well, Robert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thick energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and your organization, how can they connect.
Robert Hornung 33:41
So you can visit our website, which is renewablesassociation.ca. And on that website, you'll also be able to download a copy of our vision document and see, you know, sort of what our thoughts are on on the role that wind, solar and energy storage are going to play in helping Canada to move to net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.
Dan Seguin 34:05
Cool. Again, thank you for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Robert Hornung 34:10
That was fun. Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity.
Dan Seguin 34:14
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review whereever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Ottawa’s energy ecosystem is unique, with long-standing localized and green generation. In fact, did you know Hydro Ottawa is the largest municipally-owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Canada? Bryce Conrad, Hydro Ottawa President and CEO, joins Dan and Rebecca to discuss the company’s commitment to making its entire operations net zero by 2030.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is the energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host, Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:30
Hey, everyone, welcome back.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:32
To refresh our listeners, or in case they missed it in December, our organization Hydro Ottawa announced that it will make its entire operations net zero by the time 2030 rolls around. And by my calculations, that's only eight years away. In order to achieve net zero, you have to remove as much greenhouse gas emissions or more than you're currently putting into the atmosphere.
Dan Seguin 00:54
Now, to put it into further perspective, Ottawa's electricity grid stretches 1100 square kilometers. It's essentially Ottawa's largest machine. Add to that our fleet of bucket trucks and other vehicles, various work centers across the city and more than 700 employees, you start to realize that this is no small endeavor.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:23
Our President and CEO likes to call it our moonshot after the Apollo 11 mission where we sent a man to the moon in the 1960s.
Dan Seguin 01:31
Actually, the timeline to achieve both is pretty similar. President Kennedy announced his ambitious goal to Congress in 1961. By 1969, a man was on the surface of the moon. In those short, eight years, it must have seemed impossible to many.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:54
While Canada's putting as much pollution into the atmosphere, unfortunately, as it did a generation ago- 730 million tons to be exact. Canada's electricity industry is one of the cleanest in the world. In fact, 80% of the electricity in Canada comes from non emitting resources.
Dan Seguin 02:11
And Ontario's electricity sector is even more impressive. With 94% of its electricity we produce completely free of greenhouse gas emissions, some experts say that fully decarbonizing the electricity industry will be the key climate change solution for Canada.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:31
Here's today's big question. What will it take to get Hydro Ottawa to net zero by 2030? And what inspired the decision to be the first municipally owned utility in Canada to do it? We've been building an impressive resume here at Hydro Ottawa when it comes to environmental sustainability. Most recently, we even won the Canadian Electricity Association's Sustainability Electricity Company Designation in 2021. But we'll get into all of that with our special guest later today.
Dan Seguin 02:59
Bryce Conrad has been the President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa since 2011. Under his leadership, Hydro Ottawa has become one of the most innovative utilities in Canada, regularly winning awards and accolades for its customer oriented services and its commitment to environmental sustainability. It is the largest municipally owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Ontario. He's also my boss, Bryce, welcome to the show. Now Hydro Ottawa recently made a net zero by 2030 commitment, and there's a lot of momentum in that direction in corporate Canada. Generally, what's your view on its importance? What makes for truly credible and meaningful net zero commitment?
Bryce Conrad 03:53
Collectively, we, as a society, have been talking about this for, quite frankly, too long. I mean, when I did this presentation to the board, any reference back to Kyoto and the Kyoto protocols, and then Paris, Montreal, I mean, every four or five years, they get around to having another meeting and collectively agreed to do something, but never do anything. So there's a whole lot of talk and nothing else much. So, from our perspective, as a company, it's time to start taking responsibility for our own house, and the impact that we have collectively on our own environments. That we can and will do better, that we can be part of the solution. And, I'd say this, as someone who spent time in the federal government, who's worked 15 years working in federal provincial relations. I mean, the answer to climate change is not going to come from some magical central government telling us what to do or what not to do. It's not going to come from a provincial government. The solutions are going to be local, they're going to come from the ground up, and they're going to be you and me doing the right thing each and every day. Changing our own behavior, recognizing that the behavior, that the path that we're on today is unsustainable, and being willing to make those changes. I love the idea that there's still some expectation that there is going to be some sort of savior that's going to come in and fix everything for us. And if you look at Jeff Bezos, you look at Elon Musk, I mean, the two wealthiest men in the world and they're trying to get off the planet faster than they can stay on the planet. So, by building rocket ships and stuff, so the answer is not there. What I do like about this time, what I do think is different this time, is, for the first time, at least from my perception, the first time is that it's not simply going to be the government's making commitments. You're actually starting to see the private sector come to the table with money and solutions. When you see people like Larry Fink, and you see OMERS, in the big pension funds, and the big banks, the big insurance companies - When you start seeing these massive multibillion dollar business, stepping up to the table and saying, we're gonna put our money where our mouth is, and we're gonna start to change behavior. That's kind of special. That's the secret sauce, it's necessary to solve this problem. And the perfect example, and I've used this before, and I'll use it again, is the largest public sector pension fund in the world, is a Norwegian pension fund, which effectively is the Canada Pension Fund for Norwegians. And they've got 1.6 $1.8 trillion under management. And the source of that funds, the genesis of that fund was essentially selling the offshore oil rights for Norwegian oil development in the North Sea. And now they're saying we no longer will invest in companies that produce fossil fuel. So, isn't it ironic that a company that a pension fund, the largest in the world, that's sourced began via fossil fuel money is now turning their attention to green technologies? That's new. That's different. That's something we haven't seen before.
Dan Seguin 07:49
Okay, here's a follow up question. Can you maybe expand on what you mean, when you say net zero is our 'moonshot'? What is behind the comparison of the Apollo 11 mission that inspired you? So on YouTube, you can go back and dial up all these old speeches and watch them and watch them anew. But look, if you go back to JFK in 1961, so he does this speech before for the joint House and Senate. And, it's not a long speech. So I'd encourage everyone to go watch it. There's, it's about a minute long, the clip that that's relevant anyway. And in that speech, he says, we are going to go to the moon before the end of the decade. So he's doing this in '61. Obviously, they went to the moon 69. So as part of that, he does something that people don't do enough of these days, right, he literally says - We're going to go to the moon. So that's our objective. And I have no idea how we're going to get there. I'm paraphrasing, obviously, I have no idea how we're going to get there, the technology doesn't exist, the fuel doesn't exist, the booster rocket technology doesn't exist. And that kind of the capsule necessary to get someone to and from the moon doesn't exist today. So he's making this bold announcement without having, and then acknowledging that he doesn't know how they're going to do it. And, and I thought that's just so, quite frankly, refreshing in this day and age where everything is kind of pre packaged, right. Like, we know what we're going to do this next two years, but we already know that we've got it in the bag, and here's how it's going to be done. I like the idea of setting the big, hairy, audacious goal for the company and saying, I've said this to the management team. I have no clue how we're gonna get there. I don't know. Like, I I know what we need to start doing. But I don't know what the answer is. But I work with some of the smartest people in the game and I know that if they're empowered to do this, and we put our minds to this, we will do this. Like, that's what Kennedy counted on '61. And that's lo and behold what happened. So, when I liken it to the moonshot, it's just that- it's the it's the big, hairy, audacious goal, without any real clear roadmap as to how to accomplish that goal. And I think quite frankly, that's what served us best is when we don't necessarily have the answers, we have to make up. We have to figure our way through this stuff. And I see that every day of the company, right? If you look back at what we how we handle the tornadoes, if you look back at the way we handle the floods, if you look at the way we handle our system. Yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive stuff. Yes, there's a lot of this is how we do things. But there are a lot of days we throw out the rulebook, you throw out the manual, and you have to figure your way forward. And that's when this company is at its best. So, that's the that's the moonshot.
Rebecca Schwartz 10:53
Now, how concerned are you about climate change and environmental damage? What does the energy transition mean for Hydro Ottawa as it exists today, and for you personally, as we look to the future?
Bryce Conrad 11:05
So let's just state categorically that climate change is real. As I sit here, today, it's like minus 27,000 degrees outside. People go 'oh if it is global warming why is it so damn cold', and of course, you just want to smack people that say things like that. But, God's honest truth is climate change is not about the day to day weather, it's about weather patterns. It's about how, in the past, we've had wind storms and ice storms, we've had eight tornadoes, including one in downtown to Nepean. We've had a one in 100 year flood, followed by a one in 1000 year flood. We've had heat waves that have stretched and taxed our system. And all of this is just like, quite frankly, within the past five years. So that's what climate change means. It means unpredictable, changing, dramatically changing weather patterns. And if you run a utility, like I do, or like we do,you don't like that. You know, our infrastructure is built to withstand X. It's not built to withstand x plus 30%, or x plus 50%. So, you know, when a windstorm comes through, you know, the infrastructure is ready to sustain winds up to 90 miles an hour or something like that? Well, you know, we all saw what happened when tornadoes came through, you know, 130 miles, or 160 miles an hour, right? Those poles snap like twigs. That's what climate change means. So, you know, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. And you know, it's something that we have to start to build into our plans as to how do we build better in the future? So are we building our infrastructure to withstand 90 mile an hour winds? Are we building them to withstand 150 mile an hour winds? Well, there's a cost difference to that. Obviously, the answer is, yeah, we've got to do a better job of building stronger, more resilient infrastructure. If you saw during the floods, our Chaudiere facility, our generating asset, Chaudiere Falls. You know, you were seeing for the first time in history, all 50 of the gates of the ring dam were open. I mean, and there was more, I think it was two Olympic swimming pools passing through the gates every second. The waterfall, the water, the speed, and the waterfall was faster than the Niagara Falls, like, I mean, these are things that shouldn't be happening in downtown Ottawa, but have happened, you know, three times since I've been here. And that's 10 years. So if anyone wants to have a debate about whether or not climate change is real, call me up. Let's have that conversation. Because it's, it's very real, and it's going to dramatically impact our future. In terms of the energy transition, I think I talked a bit about it. But, you know, when we bottomed out, and look at what our future looks like, 50 years from now, our infrastructure looks fundamentally different than it does today. It's in fundamentally different places than it is today. You know, we're gonna rely upon artificial intelligence, machine learning. You know, each and every one of those, like, everything will be censored up. So, you know, the idea is that, as opposed to us rolling a truck to fix something that's broken or down, we can sort of simply reroute it from the control center. So yes, we still have to get out there and fix what's broken but for you, the customer of Hydro Ottawa, you actually won't notice the impact because the power will have switched over to another source instantaneously. That's the goal. I think, you know, you'll see more and more people, and I've been telling people this for 10 years, right? The day in and the age of, you know, my grandmother who used to sort of wait patiently in the mailbox for the bill to come in so she could open it up that day, write a check, and put it back in the mailbox the next day. Those days are gone. And those people are gone. The people that are our customers today, they want to interact, they want more, they want to understand how they can measure utility, they want to understand how they can manage their energy consumption. Particularly if you start to put the onus on them with respect to climate change and what they're doing. So they're going to want to know, like, you know, do I plug my electric car in? If I plug it in? Now? You know, do I wait and charge it between two and 4am? Or do I charge it now? You know, can I charge my house with my car, you know, they're going to be part of this and will be part of the solution. But they're also gonna have expectations of us as a provider to be transparent, authentic, reliable, managing the costs. So that energy transition is going to be huge for us. And it's only going to get more complicated. And I haven't even talked about the downside, right? I mean, the more you open the kimono, and you allow the customers to sort of engage with you directly, the more opportunity you're giving for nefarious actors to sort of engage in the things that we don't want to be happening, things like cybersecurity.
Dan Seguin 16:54
Okay, let's talk energy now, Bryce. We've got an interesting energy ecosystem here in Ottawa with long standing localized and green generation. We had distributed energy resources before it was a thing. Is there a model here that can be applied more broadly?
Bryce Conrad 17:13
Yeah, you know what, so I always like to think that Hydro Ottawa was at the cutting edge of these sorts of things. So, we were doing distributed energy resources before for the term for it. We were cool before we knew it was cool. So short answer, yeah, we've got massive generating assets in our backyard, which theoretically, can be used as distributed energy resources. As we go forward, my expectation is that. And I'd be the first to admit that having Chaudiere and the big generating assets is a massive advantage for the company. But, where we haven't done so well with our customers is with respect to some of the other DER activity. Like, the local homeowner that wants to put up solar, solar panels and stuff like that. And the God's honest truth is, those little installations are a real pain. They're a pain to manage. They're all kind of one-offs. Every one of them is individualized, everyone requires a lot of time and attention. But that's not the right answer. The right answer is we should be treating these things as gifts. We should be doing everything in our power to support them and roll them out even further. So, my expectation is over the course of the next 5-10 years, you're going to see us serve as a catalyst role for further DERs in the community. So that's the first one I would say is if you're waiting to install solar panels, or you need to - you want t- - give us a call, we're here to help you support it. But one of the projects that I think stands out is kind of unique, certainly in Canada, and one that we're particularly proud of, just given the role we played, is down at the Zibi community. Which is, for those who don't know, sort of, well, it's on an island. No man's land between the two provinces. So half of it is in Quebec, the other half is in Ontario. Andthe developer down there, kudos to them. They are partners in dream properties, I guess, four or five years ago, six years ago with the idea of using these developments, which is 34 acres on the waterfront and turning it into a one planet, one world kind of community where it's zero carbon. You know, they could have just asked us to run pipe or run power lines, but we thought, here's an opportunity for us to get in on the ground and see how this actually works. So it's up, it's running, condos are being built for people living there today. There's the heat and cooling - the heat coming from effluent discharge under the Kruger paper plant over on the Gatineau side. So. essentially this is a waste product that's being pumped back into the pipes so we can heat the homes. Conversely, in the summer they're using the Ottawa River to sort of cool it. And again, it's it's a real, full scale model of what a zero carbon energy system would look like. And there's no reason you can't take that same model and apply it on a broader scale and even broader scale. Which is something that we're keen to replicate where, if and when we get the opportunity, but it's truly unique and we're quite proud of it. Again, we got in on the ground floor and said, this is something that we're interested in, so how can we help you. And full credit to the development team, they saw the opportunity to work with us and gave us an opportunity.
Dan Seguin 21:22
Now, a lot of focus is on national targets. But here in Ottawa, we see a central role for ourselves in working with the city, customers, and other stakeholders to help drive down emissions. How much of climate action needs to be local? How important do you see Hydro Ottawa's role being to affect change?
Bryce Conrad 21:46
Yeah, well, like I said earlier, I think if we're going to stand around waiting for the Federal government or the province, or some other larger national entity, to sort of tell us how to solve this problem, I think we'll still be standing around waiting for a few years. So, my perception is that all politics is local. And that the solution to this problem is local. And I just gave you an example of the Zibi community, where that is a local project that has been done. It's been done locally, not because someone said at the Government of Canada," thou shalt build a zero carbon community". They did it because it was the right thing to do. And they felt they could do it in that environment. Again, no direction from the feds of the province. It was purely local. So the answer, as I said, is local. It's going to be local, it's going to be you and me and Rebecca, and everybody else coming up and making decisions on our own, that we want to leave this place in a better place for our kids. It's that little expression, ou Chair reminds me a lot on a daily basis. You know, leave the campsite in a better place than you found it kind of thing, right! So, that's our goal. That's, that's my goal coming to Hydro Ottawa was to leave the company in a better place that I found it. That should be our collective goals. So, the City of Ottawa has declared a climate emergency, they have announced their targets, they're ramping up a series of climate change initiatives to meet those targets. Our job is to support them, they're our shareholders. So, if we can bring our money, our expertise, to help support them deploying carbon free energy solutions, or just things that can help curb carbon, then that's what we'll do. I think we've got a pretty good track record, quite frankly, the fact that we've announced that we're going to be carbon neutral by 2030 is one thing to say, but we're doing it and we're on our way. And that garnered the attention of other organizations in town who were saying, well, if Hydro Ottawa was going to do this, maybe they can help us do the same thing. Now, is 2030 an audacious goal for some of them? Yeah, it's probably unrealistic for some but, the point is, at least we're doing it and obviously it would be inconceivable for the City of Ottawa model to get there by 2030. But isn't it nice to know that they can count on a partner that is going to be carbon neutral by 2030 to help them achieve their objectives going forward? So look, we're an innovative company. We're the largest producer of green renewable energy in Canada. We've got a first rate utility, and we've got an energy solutions company that's there to support our customers, our businesses, and our shareholders. And we will deploy all three to that benefit. So, I think my expectation is that as we go into this next municipal election, climate change will be -if it's not going to be number one or number two, on the agenda, I'll be shocked. Like, I honestly think it's risen to that level of importance for the citizens of Ottawa. So yeah, taxes are always there, but I think climate change is going to be right up there with it.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:33
So Bryce, as you know, we're in the distinctive position at Hydro Ottawa of having cross border assets in Ontario, Quebec and New York. How important is it that Canada's electricity system, as a whole, becomes more integrated across provincial boundaries? And what key steps can we expect will be taken in that direction?
Rebecca Schwartz 25:53
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a great question, Rebecca. And I think what people don't really appreciate is just how, how amazing the electricity grid actually is. It is a fully integrated machine that works from one side of the continent to the other side. I mean, it's just truly magical that you can sort of walk into your room and turn on a light 99.999% of the time and that lights are gonna come on. And that's a credit to the people that built the system in the first place. So, the good news is that it is a fully integrated grid, Canada - US. Unfortunately, it's a little too north-south for my liking at the moment. Most of the grid runs north-south. So, power gets bought and transferred between Quebec and Manitoba. But, if you look at sort of the large clean energy supplies coming out of Quebec, most of them are directed south, into the US for export markets. Going forward, that's obviously going to have to change. Canada is capable. If you look at the Ontario grid, we're 90%, clean and green. When you look at something like Saskatchewan, or Nova Scotia or Alberta, which still heavily reliant on coal or natural gas or other fossil fuels, the answer is we have to share amongst our brotherhood, so that we have to get that clean power from Quebec and Ontario and British Columbia going east- west. And I should say, Yukon, Northwest Territories the same way- but access to more difficult but still access to sort of clean, green renewable. The point, that system has to sort of be brought to bear on a national level, so that the inter ties between Ontario and Quebec are more plentiful. The power gets shifted into Nova Scotia, so that we can, so that our energy system can be truly clean and green. And it shouldn't take that long. Unfortunately, what's gonna get in the middle of that is your classic nimbyism, right. Where no one wants to build or have these transmission lines running through their backyard kind of thing, for obvious reasons. But we built the railroad and the railboard built the country, St. Lawrence Seaway. We've done some,incredibly impressive things from an infrastructure perspective, and I just think that's the answer going forward. We need to sort of build that infrastructure at a national level. So that, again, the power from Churchill Falls is flowing to Regina. And in Edmonton and Calgary and, yeah, that's my answer.
Dan Seguin 28:49
Okay, let's talk capacity. Getting to net zero by 2050 will mean roughly doubling clean electricity production in Canada. By one estimate, that's clean energy Canada. What do we need to be doing today to make that achievable?
Bryce Conrad 29:08
Well, again, the first step in the 12 step program is admitting that you have a problem. So, we have a problem. If you just step back and look at the politics, we can't build a pipeline in this country to save our lives. Now, whether you think that's the right thing or not, it's, it's a proxy for what's necessary. So okay, we're not going to build a pipeline, but you need to build big transmission lines east to west or west east or vice versa. So yeah, if you're gonna double the electricity, the clean electrical energy, which is eminently doable. We've got plenty of sources and we've got lots of supply, we've got more thatwe can tap. You just need to sort of start to work together, collectively. Province to province, federal government with the provinces, to sort of make this happen. And again, I have hopes, because at the end of the day we're one country, we built some amazing infrastructure - the St. Lawrence Seaway is a perfect example. And, you know, the rail lines, we've done this stuff before. There's no reason we can't do it again. Faced with a face of the future where the costs of climate change are real. And they're only getting higher on an annual basis. It's only a matter of time before the politicians wake up and realize that this is the solution, and they have to do something, and they have to act. And it's in our best interest to do so as a nation. So, I'm hopeful.
Dan Seguin 30:55
Now, Bryce, I'm curious, what are the three most innovative sustainability projects that you're most proud of right now? That maybe people don't know Hydro Ottawa is doing or involved with?
Bryce Conrad 31:10
Sure. I can probably give you four. And I know, yes, you asked for three. But I'll give you four! The first, that I don't think people fully appreciate, is how significant our generating assets actually are. We're not talking about small run of the mill, solar facilities, we're talking about large, 150 megawatts of clean green, renewable energy - on both sides of the border, capable of powering well over 100,000 homes. We've grown that production by 500% since 2012. So we are a real player in this business. And these are assets that are carbon free. So, talking about future proofing your generating fleet, right, these are the things that everybody's gonna want when they realize that there is no such thing as clean coal. Or when they realize that fossil fuels are not the answer going forward. So, we have these assets and they're spectacular. And I'd encourage anybody in Ottawa, if you want to see some of them in action, to go check out the ones at Chaudiere Falls, which are a dam. Rebecca, I'm not sure if you've seen it but Dan sure has. I mean, just breathtaking to watch, particularly in the summer -wouldn't go there today when it's minus 12,000 degrees because the wind coming off would be horrifying -but lovely in the sun. If you wait for Bluesfest, there's no better place to listen to the music than Chaudiere Falls! You get all the benefits of Bluesfest without paying or dealing with crowds. Anyway, so that's number one, our generating fleet. Number two is the thing I spoke about earlier, the Zibi community funding. Again, 34 acres of prime development down there, carbon free, and we were part of that solution to make it happen. And hoping to replicate it making bigger, better elsewhere. But just taking something which was otherwise a science project or a concept and sort of bringing it to reality, something that we're immensely proud of. And I think Ottawans will be as well. The third, just because my kids love it, is we've got this, this new substation going out, or transformer station going out in south Ottawa in the Barrhaven area, which is growing like a weed, obviously. With 10 or 12% growth every year. So, we had to build the new station out there. And we bought the necessary land for the station. It's called Cambrian station. It's going online sometime between now and June, I think. In fact, it's being tested as I speak. But the point is, we bought enough land up there that we've been able to donate 15 acres for a pollinator meadow to bring back the butterflies and plant some trees. So again, no real cost to us other than the land that was used that we bought for the transformer station itself. But here's another opportunity for us to do the right thing. And last but not least, the fourth one, which I'm very proud of is the role that we played in the conversion of the streetlights. So, Ottawa had high pressure sodium street lights, like every other municipality. And over the course of four years, we were able to convert all 56,000 lights to LEDs, saving the city a massive amount of money somewhere in the range of $6 million a year. And those are continuous savings, right? So, that's right to the bottom line. So these are street lights that are better, they're all IP addressable so, if the Sens win the Stanley Cup, we can flash red and white, whatever we want. The point is, they're good for a long time. And those energy savings will pay for them. Well, they already paid for the project once over already! Now, all the savings go right through to the taxpayer, so I am very proud of us.
Rebecca Schwartz 35:42
Another thing we're doing is targeting an entirely non emitting grid by 2035. What sort of changes will that mean for electricity, utilities and customers?
Rebecca Schwartz 35:52
Yeah, this is going back to the moonshot, Rebecca. In the sense that we're talking about it. And obviously, we're committing to do these sorts of things, but we don't necessarily have a clear cut perspective on how it's going to be done. So look, as I said earlier, in Ontario, the grids 92%, clean and green right now. The other 8% is natural gas. So yeah, we need to turn the grid into an automated grid by 2035. utilities like ourselves are going to have to invest in trying to find ways of managing line losses and just transmission. You know, the transmission of electricity from point A to point B emits ghgs, and that needs to be curtailed. So how do you do that? Well, I mean, there's technology that hopefully we brought to bear. I mean, today's minds are better than the lions 10-15 years ago. So I mean, I think the answer there is going to be technological change. The good news is we have a lot of smart, smart, smart people. Both academically within utilities, within the association's working on trying to solve this problem. But yeah, it' a challenge for us. And I don't necessarily have the right answer. I don't have an answer for you right now. As I explained to my Board, the iPhone is 12 years old this year. So, imagine what life -think back to where we were in 2008. I can't even imagine what my life, what our lives would be like if we didn't have an iPhone in our pocket, right? So, that's a technological change. That's made a fundamental difference in our life and in our society. Some good, some bad. But surely, the hope is that technological change will help us get to an automated grid by 2035 in an affordable way.
Dan Seguin 38:05
Now back in 2019, Hydro Ottawa opened its new office building, centralizing your operations, while ensuring a new building with a greener footprint. Can you tell us about this decision to move and how you've incorporated sustainability into your building operations?
Bryce Conrad 38:24
I joined Hydro Ottawa on August 15 2011. On August 16th 2011, we had a Board meeting, where they authorized the company to move forward with what is called ubiquitously The Real Estate Strategy. Which was effectively: Look, you know, as a result of amalgamation we had buildings all over the place. We inherited Gloucester Hydro, Ottawa Hydro, Nepean Hydro and Kanata Hydro. So, we had all these buildings all over the place that we inherited. Some of them were in pretty good shape, others were absolute pig. Thinking of the one at Albion road would be the prime example. The point was there, they were in all the wrong places from an operational perspective. They were just in the wrong place. So we developed a plan and a strategy to sort of recapitalize our buildings, and we knew that, quite frankly, for every dollar I spent on Albion road, it was $1. I lost, because the value is not in the building, the value is in the land. I use the term value loosely. We made that decision and the Board exported it, the Ontario Energy Board, as part of our applications, endorsed the idea that we needed new facilities.So we launched the plan in 2014 with a couple of stutter steps along the way, trying to find the right lands. Finally we landed on the right places for us as a company. If you look at our headquarters we built, we opened in 2019. All the new buildings are built to LEED Gold standards. Both facilities have significant on site renewable energy, they have solar facilities on sites. We didn't want them to be ostentatious or flashy, we wanted them to be functional. We want them to be low maintenance to the extent that we possibly could. We wanted to do what we could on our GHGs and also environmentalism. And that came directly from our employees. As we're doing the builds and designing, we're constantly reaching into our workforce to see what was important to them, what they want to see. One of the things everybody obviously wants to light. So, if you've been to the facilities, you know they're wide open, everybody has access to fresh, good quality air. Everyone has access to daylight for the most part. So they actually turned out fantastic. It's exactly what we want. So, we installed a whole bunch of different environmental things. Solar solar charging stations at our headquarters, we've got electrical charging stations at the headquarters, we've got a lot of reduction facilities in place. So I think we're using 55 or 60% less water than we otherwise used to. We use the gray water return that gets used back into the gardens and stuff like that. I think we're diverting 90-95% of our non hazardous waste. Our kitchen supplier has access to a dehydrator which allows them to dehydrate the food waste, reduce, and to use it as compost. From the design perspective, health and wellness was factored into it from day one. So we've got a, I wouldn't say world class gym facility, but it's pretty damn good. Got lots of ergonomically designed workspaces, the meeting rooms are flexible, we've got collaboration spaces everywhere. So the whole point was, I think Steve Jobs used to refer to them as collision points, where an employee could walk would bump into another employee and an idea would germinate. That's kind of the way we built the place. So throughout the building, there's collaboration spaces, both inside and outside. We've even got a walking path on our property. So, all of those have been done because we're the right things to do. They were the right things to do now. Post pandemic, or in the middle of a pandemic, I will tell you, all these open spaces are not our friends. There are points where you'd like to put up some walls again and close the doors, but it is what it is. And we'll get past this and get back to normal. And we'll be happy with what we got.But, facilities are great! We love them. I honestly haven't heard anybody complain about facilities which if you work in the utility industry is shocking.
Rebecca Schwartz 43:47
It seems every couple of months, we're hearing about an innovative new example of electrification of other economic sectors. Here in Ottawa, we're seeing multiple modes of public transportation transitioning to electric, for example: e scooters - Which I have to say, I use a lot in our super fun - to everything else, such as chainsaws and lawn mowers seem to be up for grabs when it comes to electrification. What's the coolest example of electrification that you've come across Bryce?
Bryce Conrad 44:18
I got like 15 answers to this one. So I love those electric scooters. I used them for the first time when I was in San Diego, whipping along the waterfront in San Diego on an electric scooter was one of the coolest things in the world. Of course I didn't look so graceful I fell, but so be it. So those are really cool. I've seen electric surfboards, which I think are really cool, too. I'm terrified to even conceive of how to get on one, but it's this kind of a wakeboard that you get elevated up in the air. So, you're you're surfing on top of the water, and it's purely electric powered, but that looks pretty cool. My neighbor here has one. I'm jealous when I see him out there on it. But honestly, the coolest one, quite frankly, is still the cars. There used to be a car that came out of the US military, it was called a Hummer. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, when he was governor of California, had a Hummer and he made his electric. A great personal expense to him, I'm sure. But these are cars that have a massive big V 12 engine. When you turn on the gas, and you turn the car on, you could literally see the ozone layer deplete behind you, that's how much these things were. And they were just pigs on gas. I don't even know whether they would get up to a gallon, probably like three kilometers to a gallon of gas back in the day. But they were just enormous. And so much like everything else, they went the way in the dodo bird, they got sold off and then shut down. Well, then lo and behold, they're coming back. So 2022, is the first year of the electric Hummer. And it is 1000 horsepower, it weighs 10,000 pounds, or close to 10,000 pounds. Tt goes zero to 60 in 2.8 seconds. And again, it weighs 10,000 pounds! Like it's amazing what they're capable of doing. It's going to have a range of 580 kilometers or whatever, whatever it will be. But just the sheer improvements in these electric vehicles is - I mean, Dan knows he's got two of them! - But we're a long way from when these first electric cars came out. Hydro Ottawa I had one of the very first electric cars and I would tell you, you know, cuz I used to park next to it in the garage. There would be weeks that go by where I wouldn't see that car because it was in the garage being fixed or something was wrong. I drove it one day and my teenage daughter who's probably 13 at the time, was in the backseat thinking she's really cramped in the backseat, because the whole damn thing is a big battery. So you just think about where that car was relative to the cars that we're seeing out there today. And I'm not even talking about the Tesla's, I'm talking about, you know, the Hyundai's and sort of the traditional car makers, and the efforts that they're making in the space. Like, it's truly exceptional what they're doing and full credit to them. Dan referenced the Audi electric e tron, I mean, it's the coolest car in the world! And all these cars are just incredible. So my answer is yeah, as I was saying with the e-scooters, at least I don't fall out of my car!
Dan Seguin 48:01
With Hydro Ottawa customers, making it very clear that climate change is important to them and they want you to continue being part of the solution and pushing the organization to do more. How are you planning to assist customers in reducing their carbon footprint?
Bryce Conrad 48:21
It's a great question. And it'spart of the moonshot, right. I don't actually know what they need until, until we start dialing this in and getting a workout. But what I know is that they want to interact with this differently. They want information, they want access to information in a way that nobody else has ever asked us, right? They are interactive. It used to be that the average Canadian thought of their electrical company, nine minutes a year, when they're paying the bills. That's not the case anymore. When they're making decisions with respect to appliances, they're thinking about their consumption, and they're making decisions with respect to their cars and they're calling us. One of our affiliates, Envari, one of the services we offer is electric vehicle readiness assessments for small commercial and condo buildings. Because for example for Dan to live in his house and install car chargers, no problem. But if you're living in a condo corporation with 400 units, how do you build out the electric car charging asset? Is a bill to the house to the person that owns the electric car? Or are they sort of shared resources? So I mean, these are some of the challenges that we're dealing with and our customers are dealing with firsthand. So, our job is to help. Our job is to try to help navigate those issues and concerns and provide them with the information. And sometimes they'll make the right decision. Sometimes they'll make the wrong decision, but at least they're making an informed decision if nothing else. So that's an example. The electric bus initiative here in Ottawa, is another one that we're quite proud of. We're gonna partner with the City of Ottawa to sort of deploy and roll out 400+ electric vehicle buses. So if you've ever seen these buses, I mean, they are sleek, they are noiseless. They are, quite frankly, enjoyable to ride. You don't have that diesel smell, that's everywhere. You're not on Slater street looking down a canyon of diesel spewing buses anymore. So, those are all the things that we're going to do to help our community and our customers. And quite frankly, they're probably 15,000 other things that we're going to be doing as we get into this fight. As we get into this and start climbing this challenge or responding to this challenge, we're going to find other things that they're going to want. And what I do know is that we've got a good brand, we've got social license within our community. If they are going to turn to anybody, they are going to turn to us for solutions, and it's our job to help them.
Rebecca Schwartz 50:58
So Bryce, as a community asset, will Hydro Ottawa pursue netzero, outside the confines of its own operations? And if so, what's your plan in terms of playing such an instrumental role in the broader progress of Ottawa towards becoming netzero? And or any other sorts of electrification programs?
Bryce Conrad 51:20
Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's be clear, that's one of the reasons we're doing a netzero commitment. We made a commitment and the Board was very clear, we're not just doing this so that we can feather our own cap, we're not doing the sit here and put a banner that says mission accomplished in 2030. We're going to do this because we want to support our community in our city in moving to being netzero, whether that by 2040, or 2050, we want to get there. Hydro Ottawa actually becomes a catalyst to helping them achieve these things. And that means, you know, partnering with the city on their energy evolution file, working with the city on the electric bus stuff I talked about. Helping them look at their municipal buildings and say, okay, you know, the Nepean sportsplex - is it time for this thing to go through a deep retrofit so that we can sort of make it more energy efficient? I mean, the city's got massive real estate holdings, and a lot of buildings that predate me and predate you and predate us, which are in dire need of retrofitting. It's the low hanging fruit, isn't it. We've swapped out the light bulbs already. Like for us to make a difference and to sort of hit those targets that the city has set for itself we got to start doing some real meaningful stuff. Like, we got to start doing some deep retrofits to buildings we got to start doing with the city on the bus, you gotta start doing some big bold things. And we're there to help them do that. So the true answer to your question, Rebecca, is yeah, we're there. We're there. We'll be there. We'll be partnering with them. We'll use our technology. We'll use our budget if necessary.
Bryce Conrad 53:04
Okay mon ami. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Since you've already been a guest on our program? We've come up with some special new ones for you, Bryce, are you ready?
Bryce Conrad 53:17
I'm good.
Dan Seguin 53:19
What are you reading right now? Bryce?
Bryce Conrad 53:21
It's a book by Congressman Jamie Raskin. It's called Unthinkable but January 6, last year, I guess. So Jamie Raskin is a Congressman from Maryland whose son tragically committed suicidelike days before January six. And then he, Jamie Raskin, went on to serve as the the head of the impeachment proceedings against former President Trump as a result January 6, so it's a book about that. So that's really depressing, but it's a fantastic book and terrifying at the same time. But I just finished reading the book by Mark Carney which I recommend to anybody and everybody I thought was really really well done. So if you haven't read that should read that too. Little more cheery.
Dan Seguin 54:13
Now, what would you name your boat if you had one?
Bryce Conrad 54:18
So, the short answer is I think all boats should be called the Enterprise. But I actually saw a boat on the and the Rideau, it was parked in front of the convention center this year. It was just a massive boat. And the boat's name was Size Matters, which was pretty funny. I'll stick with Enterprise!
Dan Seguin 54:43
Wondering if you could share with us who is someone that you truly admire?
Bryce Conrad 54:49
I mean, look, how can you not admire somebody like Nelson Mandela or you know, I think Winston Churchill is probably the greatest leader the world has ever seen. So out I'll go with Winston Churchill on Nelson Mandela and leave it there.
Dan Seguin 55:03
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Bryce Conrad 55:09
I haven't a clue, pass.
Dan Seguin 55:12
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic?
Bryce Conrad 55:17
Before the pandemic, I probably logged, I don't know, 75,000 miles a year on the plane flying from one place to another. A lot of it out of it for meetings and stuff, but the lack of travel, the lack of contact, from a professional perspective, Whether it was going to CS Week or Distribute Tech, or any of these other meetings, you go to them and you'd come back kind of rejuvenated on the one hand, but also kind of inspired by the things that we were doing relative to our peers. And then you'd always pick up one or two little things that you thought the answer was cool. I wish we could do something like that. And quite frankly, it's been two years since I've been able to do that. And, you know, Zoom calls are great, but they just don't capture the same, you don't get the same benefit. Right. So I would say that, obviously, and just just day to day social interaction, it'd be nice to actually be able to have people over without worrying about whether they've been vaccinated and boostered. And all that nonsense, but I'm hopeful.
Dan Seguin 56:30
We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?
Bryce Conrad 56:39
Well, the greatest movie of all time is the Godfather. So that's the one that no matter what time of day or night it's on, if I, if I flipped by and said it's on, I will watch whatever's left of it. So that's just it. And then my favorite TV show - sounds stereotypical - I love the Sopranos. I re-watched every Sopranos over the holidays, because David Chase came out with that new movie, The Saints of Newark, which I want to refresh my memory on all things Tony Soprano before I watch that.
Dan Seguin 57:10
And lastly, Bryce. What's really exciting you about the electricity sector right now?
Bryce Conrad 57:16
What’s not exciting, right? The biggest challenge facing our country are the people, this generation, this climate change and how we respond to climate change. And where else do you want to be in the middle of a fight then right in the middle of it, right? So climate change is the challenge and electricity as the answer. And the electrical sector is going to be front and center in that fight. So, I can't think of a better place to be. I, like lots of people, have had other opportunities presented to me over the last few years, but there's no place I'd rather be than at the head of Hydro Ottawa as we go into this climate change. In fact, I just think the opportunities are fantastic. I think the impact is fantastic if we can get it right. And I'm just bullish on the sector. I think our sector is the answer. Whether it be electric, transportation, or heating and cooling. It's going to be electricity. That's the answer. And it's just a question trying to find how do you fit it all together in a formal way that people can understand?
Rebecca Schwartz 58:35
Well, Bryce, that's it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again, Boss for joining us today. We hope you had a good time!
Bryce Conrad 58:44
Had a great time thanks, guys.
Dan Seguin 58:46
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Technology has evolved so rapidly to make our lives easier, but many would argue these advancements have been a leading cause in the current state of climate change. Knowing we need to find cleaner energy methods, is it possible technology could help solve the problem it may have helped create?
Join host Dan Séguin as he sits down with accomplished entrepreneur, best-selling author, and award-winning podcaster Amber Mac to discuss the potential impact technology could have on a greener future. They also explore how Millennials and Generation Z are likely to be leaders in creating purpose-first technology, the rise in popularity of the work from home movement, and why infrastructure is hindering access to electric vehicles.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. I think it's fair to say that within the last decade or two, technology has evolved and innovated at an accelerated pace, unlike any other time in human history, like the fact that Apple releases a new generation of its iPhones every single year, it seems like society has created a demand for faster and better technology. As britannia.com says, social need does drive technological innovation. We're also living in a time where the resources are available for us to achieve these advancements, unlike, say, in 1490, where Leonardo da Vinci had sketches for helicopters, airplanes, and believe it or not submarines, he had the vision, but not the resources at that time to make his inventions a reality. And perhaps, at the time, society didn't have a need for such things. Okay, let's fast forward to today. And when it comes to a major world problem, like climate change, you could argue that there is a real social need for faster and better technology for cleaner sources of energy. And while not all technology exists to achieve net zero, at the very least, some might get us closer. It's hard not to feel that innovation and technology are what's going to help us solve the current climate crisis, even if some would argue that innovation and technology may have caused the predicament that we are currently in in the first place. Now, here is today's big question. So we know that as a society, we need to change how we use energy, find cleaner methods and develop technologies to make this happen. But is that enough? And can technology really curb the impact of climate change? Our special guest today is recognized internationally as an innovation and technology leader. Her professional accomplishments include a best selling author, award winning podcaster, a sought after keynote speaker and accomplished entrepreneur, and she joins us today. So very cool. Amber McArthur is what many call a multi hyphenate. She is a regular business host and experts on Fast Company, CNN, Bloomberg, CBS CTV, the Marilyn Denis show, and Sirius XM, where she co hosts another podcast the fi, better known as Amber Mac, she started her career in San Francisco and Boston, during the .com. Boom, she left the startup world to join Microsoft to build one of the first female focused lifestyle portals. And in 2006, she started her own digital agency. Welcome, Amber, thank you very much for taking the time to join us on this show. Let's kick things off by asking what comes to mind when you hear the word technology and innovation?
Amber Mac 04:04
Well, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the words technology and innovation is that we need more of it in Canada today. So I think one of the most interesting things that we're seeing when it comes to technology and innovation is when technology can solve a certain problem. And we have many problems in our world today that do need solving. And that's why there has to be such a focus on technology for the future, especially when it comes to the next generation.
Dan Seguin 04:32
Okay, Amber. Now, what do you think are the biggest causes or drivers of technological advancements and innovation today?
Amber Mac 04:42
Well, I think what we've seen historically, especially over the past few decades, is that money is a big driver when it comes to technology and innovation. In 1999. I moved out to San Francisco to work in the startup scene because there was so much money being invested in that community at that time. Now that hasn't really shifted, there's still a lot of money in Silicon Valley. But we're seeing that there are pockets of places across Canada, where there is more investment when it comes to the technology sector. So the truth is, if you're in a community and you're developing technology, it's very difficult if you aren't in one of those core hubs across the country.
Dan Seguin 05:21
Okay. What do you think was the biggest tech innovation that changed the world in 2021?
Amber Mac 05:29
That is a really good question. So I'm thinking you've been thinking about all types of technology innovations. And of course, if I think if you asked me this question in 2020, I would have said, the mRNA technology that has allowed so many of us to get vaccinated, I think, in 2021, when we look at the different types of innovations in our society, I would still stick with the Health Tech theme. Because what I've seen more and more is that this is probably one of the most exciting sectors when we think about the future of technology. And the place where I think I would say deserves the most attention is perhaps within wearables. Right now I'm wearing a band called The whip band that allows me to know if my respiratory rate is off, my HRV rates, all of those details, my sleep, my activity. And I think when we think about an individual, harnessing the power of being able to have data at their fingertips 24/7 In terms of being able to understand their health, I think we've kind of underestimated how critical and important that is, especially during pandemic times.
Dan Seguin 06:37
Now, I know you recently had a conversation with Minister Gibo, the new Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, technologically speaking, what are your thoughts on Canada's plan to be net zero by 2050?
Amber Mac 06:52
I think technologically speaking, when we look at the year 2050, I think most people will agree that seems like a long way away. And I understand the importance of having deadlines. But I think for a lot of Canadians, I think individuals are still kind of unsure about how they can contribute to achieving this goal in Canada. And I think at the end of the day, that's the piece that is missing. You know, we have questions many times in our society, does this mean that I should eat less meat? Does this mean that I should no longer drive a gas powered vehicle? Does this mean that I should think about heat pumps in my home and we have so many questions, but I think at the individual level, Canadians are still kind of unsure about how they can be partners in this goal. And I do think it's up to the federal government to do a better job of communicating that I think businesses are starting to get up to speed in terms of their responsibility. But I do believe that each Canadian can also play a role. But we need a clear definition in terms of what that role is going to be, and how we can help things along the way. So maybe that deadline could be even sooner.
Dan Seguin 08:01
Okay. How does that goal to curb climate change impact technology, as well as us and our everyday lives?
Amber Mac 08:11
Well, I think what we're seeing with this goal in mind is that when we talk about technology, there's a huge opportunity in this country, for those organizations that focus on climate tech. And I think when we say the term of climate tech, the truth is that all technology should have our climate in mind. So I hope at some point, that that is just technology for the future. So I think at the end of the day, I think we're gonna see some incredible opportunities for organizations, including startups in this country, to really start to focus on solutions in terms of getting to that goal. And I think there'll be plenty of opportunities for both investors as well as inventors and researchers along the way, but we really have to learn how to nurture those communities. Because Canada is really great at research. But we're not so great at the commercialization of some of that research. And that's where we can definitely do a better job.
Dan Seguin 09:08
In your opinion, Amber, what innovations in the energy sector or by society at large, with respect to energy use have been the most impactful?
09:20
Well, I've been reading a number of reports, you know, every year in the tech sector, we constantly have these reports that talk about the top technology of 2021. And there are always these really compelling lists on that list. We see technology like heat pumps, you know, it's not exactly the sexiest of technology, but I think there are some places across Canada that are doing a really good job of providing incentives for individual homeowners to actually put heat pumps into their home. We have a home in Charlottetown Prince Edward Island and everybody on PEI Believe it or not, is always talking about heat pumps. Seems like a weird conversation, but they understand their energy efficient that they can get rebates from the government. We don't hear as many of those conversations in other places like where I live now in Ontario. So when it comes to the future of the climate, I think having more of these conversations more incentive for individuals to change their habits, that is definitely critical. We also see headlines on a regular basis, I was just looking on CTV News. And I saw this headline a few days ago, Ontario, researchers create chemical compounds that can neutralize COVID-19. This is amazing research that's being done here in Toronto. However, if you get a little bit further down in the article, you see that it's going to take a couple of years for this technology to come to market. So perhaps a little too late. But we again, we do a great job in this country in terms of research in the space of technology. And we're always innovating. It's just that extra step to get it out there into the public. Okay,
Dan Seguin 10:55
that being said, what does the future of technology look like as we embark on a journey to evolve our energy resources to a netzero future by 2050?
Amber Mac 11:07
Well, I think that 2021 has actually been a pretty ugly year in the world of technology, in some ways, probably not specific to the energy sector. But if we look at some of the big tech companies of today, I think what we've seen is that many of the leaders in that space perhaps lack the vision or the commitment to put things like climate, front and center. And so what I'm hoping for, and I hope this isn't just wishful thinking, is that we see more technology companies, but more specifically leaders who focus on being responsible when it comes to the evolution of technology to help people and and help out a larger population of people. It can't always be about profit, we have to also be focusing on purpose first. Now, if I want to say there's a silver lining there, I think maybe it's the next generation of leaders in the sense that I do believe that they are much more savvy about the future of the planet, and they have energy concerns already, even my 12 year old. And so I believe that next generation has a better possibility of being the leaders of tomorrow that we need to develop technology to make this planet a healthier place.
Dan Seguin 12:20
Now, Amber, based on your knowledge of technology and societal change. What are people looking for in tech? Like, what do they need?
Amber Mac 12:31
Well, how long do you have because I would say one of the things I've learned after almost 20 years in this industry, is that there aren't really that many of us who are out there and have made careers of demystifying technology. I've been fortunate to be able to do that. And I assumed by this point in my career, that there would be, you know, dozens of people who would flock to this job, so to speak in Canada, but there really aren't that many people. And I think what we see today is that Canadians, as individuals have more and more questions all the time about how technology can improve their lives. And I always believe that individuals are hungry and excited about doing the right thing when it comes to technology choices for themselves for the planet. But I do think that a lot of people are confused about what technology to choose. And I do think some technology companies haven't done a great job of demystifying technology to explain how it works, you know, heat pumps, again, if we can go back to that. I mean, that's a great example, a lot of people don't understand exactly how heat pumps actually work to both potentially cool and warm your house. So we have to do a better job. And maybe it's the responsibility of the technology companies. But there probably also is a role for our governments at all three levels to play when it comes to communicating the technology that can make our lives better, and again, can help us in this climate fight.
Dan Seguin 13:55
Now, where do you think the direction of smart technology and devices are going? Is it AI? Autonomous or something unexpected?
Amber Mac 14:07
Well, I think one of the most exciting trends that we're seeing in this space in terms of the future of technology is around the topic of automation. That, of course includes many AI systems. And so when we think about automation at large, I know people worry that this could potentially impact jobs, which it likely will to some extent, but there is a role in the future for automation to be able to play via a significant player in healthcare is one example. You know, just think about all of the research we've seen over the past few years with AI technology that can help to diagnose things like breast cancer more efficiently even then, the human eye. And so I think if we look at the potential of the future AI and automation is probably going to have the biggest impact on our society, it will be beneficial, but we also have to be prepared as a society in terms of having the skills to be able to thrive in the age of automation, knowing again, that some jobs may be at risk.
Dan Seguin 15:07
Are there any Canadian innovations or technologies that have captured your attention?
Amber Mac 15:15
Well, over the years, I've been lucky enough to keep an eye on to some of the top technology companies in the country and even interview some of those founders in the early days. And I would say that there are some bright stars when it comes to categories like fin tech, in the software and E commerce space. I mean, it's hard to have a conversation about technology changing the world without mentioning Ottawa based Shopify. So these are the type of companies that I've kept an eye on. But I do believe that we should be talking about having dozens of Shopifys in our society in terms of what Canadians have the potential to do in the future. So for me, there are sort of glimmers of hope, as far as the innovation that's happening in the tech sector. But I do think we can have to do a better job of the commercialization of some of that technology. And I don't think you have to move to the states anymore, like I did in 1999, to be able to succeed, I think you can have a global technology company that is built and successful right here at home.
Dan Seguin 16:18
Okay, Amber, what do you think the next generation, millennials, or Gen Z's can teach us about technology, or the environment?
Amber Mac 16:31
Well, you know, I think that I would probably look further to Gen Z. I'm not giving up on Millennials just yet. But you know, millennials are getting older. And I think Gen Z tends to be this more exciting category of young people that have grown up with idols out there like Greta Thunberg, and who have said that, hey, this is a fight that we are prepared to fight, we want our parents to fight it, we want our government to fight it, we want our teachers to fight it. And there are activists like us going out there and fighting it. So I am probably most excited about Generation Z in terms of their potential to be able to actually make changes in the world in the future when they come into positions of power. At the same time, I'm hesitant to put the weight of climate on this young generation of kids who maybe haven't had a chance to really be kids, because they've had both the reality of dealing with the COVID 19 pandemic and the realities of dealing with a burning planet that have been basically sitting on their doorstep for so long. So it concerns me a little bit in terms of the pressure we put on them. But I do believe that we're going to see some exciting leaders come out of that generation.
Dan Seguin 17:43
Now thinking of your best selling book, is it still possible to outsmart your kids online, or when it comes to technology in general?
Amber Mac 17:54
I probably am one of those authors. I've written two best selling books and and I always tell people don't buy my books, because they're outdated after a year. We'll be honest about these conversations in terms of what is possible, you know, I wrote power friending, a best seller in 2010. And that was all about the potential of the internet to be this magical place to bring people together. And then all of a sudden, I see algorithms dividing us and being a threat to democracy. And I think wow, you know, I really was kind of naive, with outsmarting your kids online, I think it is possible for adults in the room to be able to have a good handle on what's happening in the technology space. But I probably am less optimistic than when I wrote that book in terms of adults being able to outsmart their kids because they're growing up again with this technology at their fingertips. And they're not naive about the impacts of that technology as well.
Dan Seguin 18:50
Now, I know you've done some research on EVs, electric vehicles, what are the biggest challenges for mass adoption? Does the social need exist finally, to make them a success?
Amber Mac 19:05
I certainly know that there are many people in Canada who are EV specialists whose knowledge is well beyond where I'm at. But the question I constantly have over and over again, is the infrastructure question, I had a chance to listen to some past episodes of your podcast. And I know that you have talked about this a number of times as far as what infrastructure is in place, and even what roles do governments especially municipal governments play as far as that infrastructure and the construction industry and beyond? So, from my perspective, one of the issues that I see is that there's an assumption from some people that every Canadian has a driveway and a garage where they can put these EVs. Now I live in downtown Toronto right off Queen Street. In a detached home. I don't have a driveway. We don't have a parking spot. I am the perfect EV buyer. And yet I cannot actually legitimately have an EV because I don't have a place to plug it in. And I think we're very slowly rolling out the infrastructure even in on the highways in Ontario, I know there have have been some movement to be able to have EV chargers, and some of the on route stops, and we're doing more and more, but it just feels like we're kind of trickling out these solutions is not happening fast enough. So my biggest complaint would be from an infrastructure standpoint, we at some point have to make it possible in the next few years for every single person who needs to plug in an electric vehicle to be able to plug it in, or else we're never gonna meet the goals that we want to meet. And it won't be realistic, that people have that choice that we think that they have right now.
Dan Seguin 20:44
Okay, so on a personal note, are you looking for an EV? And if so, what is your criteria to take the plunge?
Amber Mac 20:53
I would have bought an electric vehicle years ago, if I had some place to plug it in. The reality of my situation is that I just don't have the infrastructure to be able to do that. Now, on a street, one street over from us in downtown Toronto, there now is, I believe one or two chargers that have been put up as a test pilot in the city where people can charge their cars. It's just that's just not enough. You know, we have dozens and dozens of houses on on my street alone. And most people aren't going to walk over a street and then fight for two charging spots. So my desire to own an electric vehicle, unfortunately, is hindered by the reality of a total infrastructure failure. And I'm not sure how we're going to be able to do better if we don't react quickly in the near future.
Dan Seguin 21:43
What sort of smart tech do you have in your home? Does energy efficiency factor into your buying decision when it comes to your home?
Amber Mac 21:53
Well, one of the things that I've really been focused on in 2021, and as part of my company, Amber Mac media, we've committed to this in 2022, is that we're going to be focused more and more on sustainable tech. And even in 2020, and 2019. We actually bought this house I mentioned before, in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, and we did an entire makeover of 140 year old historic home and turn it into a smart home. And it was a really fun project to be able to do this because we were able to focus on sustainable tech. So we have everything in the home from heat pumps, to smart thermostats to energy efficient faucets. And so at almost every level and every point of purchase in the home, we made a decision based on the sustainability factor. Now most Canadians are not going to have maybe the luxury to do it at that level. But let's face it, there's lots of sustainable tech out there. And I do believe more and more, especially as people spend more time at home, that that is going to be something that is driving their decision making. And that's why I am pushing and committing more to this in the next year and years ahead.
Dan Seguin 23:06
Next step up aren't Net Zero homes or renewable home generation are those on your radar?
Amber Mac 23:13
They absolutely are. And I think when we think about the term net zero homes, I mean, all of it is so exciting. And there's so many incredible innovations in this space. At the same time, we have an affordability crisis when it comes to homes in this country. And one of the things that I just don't want to see in the future. And I have to also try to avoid this as someone who covers the sector is to push for solutions that aren't equitable. And so when we think about the future of say, a net zero home, we want that to be something that could be a possibility for every Canadian. And yet right now we have so many issues in terms of that affordability piece that make that almost an impossibility. So we have a long way to go on that front. And it will be exciting when we see the possibility for every homeowner to be able to afford to buy sustainable tech, whether it's because of government rebates, or companies developing technology that just isn't as expensive as what we're seeing today.
Dan Seguin 24:15
Now, this is top of mind for a lot of people. What's your take on remote work? Is it here to stay?
Amber Mac 24:24
Oh, boy. Okay, so I am just fascinated on a daily basis about this topic. Because I'm looking at the research I'm reading what people are saying, in cities and in rural areas all over the world. And all signs points pretty much in the same direction that even if people can safely go back to work a lot of people especially parents, and families, they do not want to go back into an office five days a week. And yet at the same time, I do often talk to people who were who are leaders in the business community Who are so convinced and maybe blinded by, you know what they're hearing that people want to be in the office, it's important for collaboration. You know, we have a small team here, but I have one woman who's worked for us for a couple of years, who I've only seen twice, probably face to face during pandemic times, a woman who works for us in Cape Breton, who I really have maybe only met once in person. I mean, remote work for so many of us in the tech sector has been a reality for decades. And so I think this is an exciting trend that we need to embrace, especially when we think about the future of the planet and commute times and, and the habit that reeks on the world. And I think people are naive to think that most people want to go into a little cubicle with fluorescent lights and spend their days there.
Dan Seguin 25:47
Okay, aside from a cubicle, what are the barriers for it to become the norm after this pandemic?
Amber Mac 25:55
Well, I think one of the most important things that we need to be able to tackle when it comes to the future of remote work is that we need leaders who believe that this is important to the future of their company, or important to the future of recruiting people or the planet, we need leaders who are able to understand one key thing and that key thing is trust. And you have to believe that you can build trust in a virtual environment, I am the first person to say I do think that that is possible. It does take some effort. And it does take some work to do just that. But I think we're naive, again, to think that it is only face to face relationships that can be effective and help to grow a business. I think there are many benefits of remote work that leaders need to embrace. But those leaders who tend to often not embrace remote work, I find they tend to be the leaders who are a little more power hungry. And I like the idea of everybody under one roof. So that can keep an eye on what people are doing. But that is not the way to rule, especially if you're trying to recruit young millennials, or generation Z.
Dan Seguin 27:01
Okay, I'm curious, what tech can't You Live Without when you work remotely?
Amber Mac 27:06
I love that question. So I have this theory that has not been tested. But I have a theory that your virtual work setup. So kind of what we're doing right now is much more important than people think when it comes to things like virtual video, whether it's a zoom call, or a team's call, or you're doing a television interview, whatever that might be. The technology that I can't live without is really that technology that allows me to create a frictionless experience when I'm talking to someone through video, that means I don't have audio issues, or no lighting issues. I'm not you know, in a dark corner of my room where you can't see me and you think I look sketchy and you don't trust me, all of those things that we can do with technology to be able to build trust in this virtual environment. I think we underestimate the potential of those. So the technology that I can't live without, whether it's here in my studio or at home, it's just some basic tech, like a ring light for my desk, USB microphone, those things that help again, with this virtual environment and have made the pandemic a little bit easier because we've been able to build those relationships more efficiently.
Dan Seguin 28:17
Going through your list of accomplishments, Amber, and there are many, what is something you want to accomplish that you haven't yet?
Amber Mac 28:27
Well, I have a lot of things that I want to do in the future. And, you know, I've been in the tech sector for a while now. And I'm excited to continue to demystify technology for Canadians and people around the world. But there are things that I do want to focus on beyond the technology sector. One of those things, perhaps has nothing to do at all with technology. But I've just celebrated my 20th Sober anniversary where I haven't had a drink of alcohol and 20 years. And I do believe that there's this movement that's happening right now with people who have chosen to abstain from alcohol for one reason or another. I'm kind of excited to eventually to create a community around those people. Because I grew up in a place in rural Prince Edward Island where not drinking wasn't a choice. And I do want to show that next generation that there are plenty of people who've chosen sobriety who have been successful, and that we do exist out there. So it's not the right choice for everyone to choose to drink.
Dan Seguin 29:22
Now the energy sector is looking to attract more women in STEM science, tech, engineering and mathematics. What advice would you give companies and or decision makers?
Amber Mac 29:34
Well, it's interesting. I've been doing a little bit of work with actual which is based in Ottawa. Their CEO Jennifer Flanagan is an incredible resource in terms of understanding how we can get the next generation especially young girls interested in STEM and and through our conversations. I've learned many things that perhaps I wasn't aware about in the past and one of those things is often retaining women in the technology sector. If there's a big hurdle to do that, because often they feel as though they're not really accepted, or they don't feel comfortable, you know, they're in an environment where there aren't a lot of other women. So I think it's important for leaders to understand how important it is to create a culture in your organization that really embraces this idea of having a diverse workforce. And that includes, of course, gender diversity. And I think especially in the tech sector, we haven't done a really great job of that within most organizations. So that's kind of a first step. And there, there's some really great work happening right now to teach young girls about embracing technology and careers in technology. But we still have a long way to go. One of the things that Jennifer had said to me recently, is that oftentimes, boys actually choose technology as extra curricular activity. So they may do after school robotics classes, and they tend to sort of have an edge when they get out of school when it comes to having embraced technology. So there are things that we can do to encourage that next generation to get interested. And that means having more and more programs that expose young girls to technology as an option, even just as a hobby so that they develop interest in that space.
Dan Seguin 31:15
Now, how about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready?
Amber Mac 31:21
I am ready. Let's do it.
Dan Seguin 31:23
Okay, Amber, what is your favorite word? What's my favorite word?
Amber Mac 31:28
Yes.
Dan Seguin 31:29
What is the one thing you can't live without Amber?
Amber Mac 31:33
One thing that I can't live with out, I don't want to say obvious things like my family. But I will say my whip band. I love my whip. And I love seeing my daily stats and data around my health.
Dan Seguin 31:44
What is something that challenges you?
Amber Mac 31:48
Twitter? Not that it's hard for me to use Twitter. It's just hard not to reply to some people.
Dan Seguin 31:55
Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Amber Mac 32:00
Invisibility?
Dan Seguin 32:04
If you could turn back time now and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?
Amber Mac 32:10
I would probably tell my 18 year old self that all was going to be okay. And the lessons I learned as a young child growing up in rural Prince Edward Island, were going to come in very, very handy in the real world.
Dan Seguin 32:27
And lastly, Amber, what do you currently find most interesting in the technology sector.
Amber Mac 32:35
I am a very curious person. And so there are so many things that I find interesting in the technology sector. But the thing I probably find the most interesting right now in terms of what's happening in this the future is the push for businesses to be more socially responsible. And it's going to be fascinating in 2022, to see how that pans out, you know, some people believe who are in the business world, that a company's only purpose is to actually create profit for individuals and the company at large. But I think what we're going to see in the future is that businesses in the tech space are going to have more responsibility than simply creating profits. So there's going to be some who struggle with this, but there are some that will embrace this and see it as almost a superpower for success.
Dan Seguin 33:25
Now, Amber, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. I'd like to thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Amber Mac 33:34
I had so much fun. Thanks so much for having me.
Dan Seguin 33:37
Until next time, I'm Dan Seguin. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Canada has been vocal about reaching a net zero future, but in order for the country to get there, it’s going to require a combination of new technology and social behaviours. Catherine Abreu, Executive Director of Destination Zero and former Executive Director of Climate Action Network-Canada, joins thinkenergy this episode to discuss how we can build more resilient energy systems, how Indigenous communities are leading the charge on renewable energy development, and what it will take for Canada to reach its proposed net zero future. Listen to Catherine’s in-depth conversation with Dan Séguin and hear why she believes the antidote to despair is not hope, it’s action.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On today's show, we're going to talk about what's on everyone's mind. Net Zero. Today's show is going to be a great one, Canada's Amazing Race to net zero emissions by 2050. The topic of climate change is something all generations Baby Boomers, Gen X, millennials and Gen Z's acknowledge as urgent and critical for the future of our planet. Now, imagine in the not too distant future where Canada is 100% powered by clean, renewable energy, and all vehicles on the roads are electric, producing zero greenhouse gas emissions. So to be clear, net zero will be reached when we remove as much or more greenhouse gas emissions from the atmosphere than we put into it. And this utopia is not science fiction, but rather an ambitious action plan that Canada aims to achieve by the year 2050. In fact, with less than three decades to go, the race is on to achievable targets and solve the greatest challenge of our lifetime. On another piece of information, the road Bank of Canada just released a report in October 2021, stating that this transition to net zero emissions could have a price tag of, get this, $2 trillion that 60 billion a year. Wow. Right now, we're putting as much pollution into the atmosphere as we did a generation ago emitting 730 million tons of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases each year. To get back on track, the federal government has committed to getting Canada back to around 500 million tons by 2030. And some of our listeners may not be aware of our very own organization, hydro auto holding, just announced its commitment to reach Net Zero operations by 2030. At first for any municipally owned utility company in Canada. That's pretty amazing. So here's today's big question. Say Canada reduces emissions by 500 million tons by 2030. What is it going to take to eliminate all greenhouse gas emissions between 2030 and 2050? Now joining us today is Catherine Abreu, the executive director of destination zero, and former executive director of Climate Action Network Canada. Catherine, I'm hoping you can shed some light on how the general public can sort spend from substance as it relates to net zero conversations that seem to be gaining enormous momentum. Now, Catherine, are you ready to dive into today's questions?
Catherine Abreu 03:42
Of course
Dan Seguin 03:43
The term Net Zero gets thrown around a lot, but is often misunderstood. Arguably, there's historically been a lot of attention and understanding around one half of the net zero equation, which is lowering our emissions profile. But there's another side to net zero as well, which involves removing or absorbing emissions from the atmosphere. Now, I'm wondering if you can speak to the second part in more details. What does it involve? And how important is carbon removal and absorption to Net zero efforts, Catherine?
Catherine Abreu 04:25
Hey, Daniel. Yeah, thanks for this question. It's a really, really important one. I think often when people hear the phrase net zero by 2050, and we've been hearing it a lot in the last couple of years, especially, you know, it's easy to get really distracted by those phrases, net and 2050. And for me, the operating word in that phrase is zero. And so what net zero means is that we are getting as close to zero emissions as possible. That being said, there will be remaining sources of emissions that were not able to mitigate in time by by mid century. And, and so we use that term net to talk about building up our capacity to sequester those emissions, either through natural means, which is the preferred choice by improving our agricultural lands, you know, turning our farms into places that can help capture some of that carbon by reforming some agricultural practices, restoring natural ecosystems in particular forests, which, of course, you know, requires number one for us to protect those forests, make sure they're not being chopped down. And as much as possible, protect them from the growing forest fires, that we're seeing rage across Canada, restoring other natural ecosystems, like wetlands, which are actually really huge carbon sinks, they store a lot of carbon. And so that's, that's, you know, the primary focus for that part of the net, is let's restore those natural ecosystems. So that we can sequester more of that carbon in the future, if we're not able to actually bring it down to zero, because, you know, some of that carbon is going to be coming from buildings, that will, we'll still be putting out some of that carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the future. And we won't be, you know, we may not necessarily be able to get every single building to zero emissions by 2050. So that's one potential source. Of course, industrial sources are another example. And restoring those natural ecosystems has a whole bunch of other benefits, right, like, improves our health and well being to be able to access those natural species, or those natural spaces, I should say. And it helps with species restoration, because of course, the the twin crises to climate changes the biodiversity crisis. And the other side of the of the net of the net equation is technology. So technology that will actually capture carbon from an industrial process or from the air and turn it into something else, ideally. So carbon capture, utilization and storage is the phrase that's often used on that front. CCUS is the acronym. And we have some of those technologies in operation right now. Generally, they're operating in extremely small scale in a very niche pilot project area. And they're being helped along by huge government subsidies, these carbon capture technologies are right now quite expensive. And so that's why we often say when we're talking about Net Zero that, while those technologies will likely be a part of our future, particularly in industrial applications, we probably right now need to be focusing on those solutions that we know are going to work, and that don't require such huge government subsidies. And those solutions are really in those those ecosystem restoration solutions that I was talking about at the outset.
Dan Seguin 07:58
Okay, in your view, Catherine, what are the most promising and impressive carbon reduction and removal technologies from the perspective of maximizing the ability to achieve net zero by 2050? What are you most excited about when it comes to the vision and opportunity of net zero?
Catherine Abreu 08:20
So yeah, I'm going to give you an answer that's maybe a bit unexpected, because I think when we imagine technology, we often think about it in very like mechanical terms, right? We think about, oh, what's the new, flashy, shiny piece of technology that we're going to apply, and that will save us from ourselves? I think, also, as humans, we tend to be very preoccupied with silver bullet solutions. So we're saying what's the new cool technology that we can invent that's just going to solve climate change for us in the future, and we don't have to worry about it. And so often get worried in the in the carbon capture conversation, that that's where people's minds go. And when in reality, we're looking at a huge mix of solutions. And the technologies that we're going to be working with some of them will be those, you know, mechanical technologies that we imagine that many of them will actually be social adaptations, right? So kind of healing based technologies, new ways of doing thing, things. And so to link it back to our earlier conversation about what net zero by 2050 really means, you know, we can think about a different way of approaching agriculture. So that farmland is turned from a carbon source, which it really is right now. It's the third largest source of carbon and greenhouse gas emissions in the world. So we can think about how to turn it from a carbon source into a carbon sink. So how do we, you know, how do we innovate in the agricultural sector to improve the Have those those agricultural lands capacity to sequester carbon. And I would say that that's actually the thing that I feel most excited about, because I think we have huge, largely untapped potential in that arena. And that conversation around agricultural transformation and the role that farmers can play in a netzero future is just picking up steam here in Canada. And I think it's going to be a really, really important one for us in the next decade. Because making farmers a part of the solution is also a big a big and exciting possibility. In terms of the those hard Technologies, a lot of room, as I was saying earlier, it's still relatively undeveloped. And so it's hard to say which one is going to win the day, right, which when we might be seeing used in some of those industrial applications more often in the future, that's likely to come kind of post 2030. So over the course of the next decade, will be really, really focusing on the things that we have at our fingertips right now. But there will be this kind of technological evolution that happens in parallel. And, you know, perhaps by the 2040s, and the 2050s, there will be some carbon capture technologies that are widely used, or more widely used. And so really, I think what we have to be focusing on is striking this balance between investing in the solutions that we know we have now that we have right at our fingertips, and that we just need to scale up. And then also, taking a look at some of the innovation and the evolution that's happening and carbon capture technologies, mostly in the private sector. There are there are private sector proponents that are thinking through that problem right now. And perhaps, you know, in the next decade, that's a little bit where where we'll be pivoting and thinking about how we're using some of those existing solutions at the scale we need to while also bringing in some of these newer technologies.
Dan Seguin 11:55
Okay. There, there seems to be a lot of excitement around the GHG reduction potential associated with electrification. What's your vision of the role of clean electricity and electrification of other sectors when it comes to helping to fulfill our country's GHG reduction requirements?
Catherine Abreu 12:20
I love this question. I spent the early part of my career regularly attending utility review board meetings and thinking through integrated resource planning processes for utilities. And so I I'm a dedicated electricity nerd. And I think, you know, we often don't talk about that as much as we need to in Canada, because we have an electricity, we have electricity systems across Canada that are already over 80% non emitting. And so for us electricity is is maybe a little bit less a part of the climate action conversation than it is in other places that have much more greenhouse gas intensive electricity systems. But of course, that that really differs across the country. So you know, we have pretty GHG intensive electricity systems on the East Coast in Canada, you know, through the prairies. But why we focus in on that is because clean electricity is where it all starts, that's the foundation that we have to build a decarbonized society from a clean electricity system is what we need to power electric vehicles. Whether those are personal vehicles or public transportation vehicles, clean electricity is what we need to depend on to build our net zero homes. Right, you can't have a netzero home if if that home is, in part using electricity that's being generated from greenhouse gas emitting sources like coal. And so all of these other sectors that we want to decarbonize even industry, right, huge potential for electrification in industry. But the only point of electrifying industry is if that electricity is cleaner than the sources of energy that they're using right now. So all of those other sectors need to decarbonize. And the way they're going to decarbonize is by using a clean electricity system. And I think also part of why that conversation is big here in Canada is because we are at the starting point of having a relatively clean electricity system when compared to other jurisdictions. And so here in Canada, we have the potential to, you know, scale up the renewable the clean, renewable energy that's in our energy mix already. So moved from over 80% clean electricity across Canada to closer to 100% clean electricity in Canada and their government commitments that put us on that track. And we also have the potential to think about scaling up our exports of clean electricity. And I think that's actually an important conversation because Canada has a very greenhouse gas intensive export economy right now, a lot of our exports, you know, they are fossil fuel intensive. And so they have a really high carbon footprint. And we need to be thinking about how to substitute those high carbon exports with low carbon exports, as our economy decarbonize is, and clean electricity is a big part potential there. So yeah, so that's really the foundation of of the social and economic transformation that we're talking about it from as we shift from fossil fuel based energy sources, to clean renewable energy based sources.
Dan Seguin 15:32
When folks hear about plans for reaching net zero by 2050, their immediate reaction is to be concerned about potential increase of in energy costs, or perhaps about losing their jobs, depending on the sector they work in. What would you say to these folks, Catherine?
Catherine Abreu 15:53
the concern of a rising energy costs is a huge one. You know, we've actually seen that rear its head pretty substantially this year, in the late half of 2021, with rising energy costs across Europe, relating mostly to the rising costs of gas. And I think actually, a big lesson that we're learning from the energy cost crisis that many parts of Europe and other parts of the world are experiencing right now is that the fossil fuel market is actually quite volatile. And that volatility has impacted Canada quite a bit as a major oil and gas producer already. But it's starting to impact not only, you know, production, and jobs related to that production of fossil fuels, it's starting to also know penetrate energy systems that rely on those fossil fuels. And, and so we need to be correcting for that volatility. And a part of how we do that actually, and this is maybe counterintuitive to a lot of folks, because there's a lot of misguiding rhetoric out there around renewable energy. But part of how we make energy systems more resilient, is by incorporating more renewable energy more distributed renewable energy generation into those systems. And then another important piece is energy efficiency. So you make those energy systems really lean as much as you can, by cutting energy waste, right? So we want to me making sure that we're not losing energy as it's transferred from where it's created to where it's used, we want to make sure that when it's used, it's used as efficiently as possible. And so those investments in energy efficiency help make the energy system more stable. And then when we make that energy system run on renewable energy, and when we're talking renewable energy, we're talking about a mix here of water when sun and storage, of course, and then we see that, that there is a new kind of resilience put into that system. Because often those energy sources can help us lock in long term prices that are much more stable than the volatile energy prices associated with fossil fuels. So so that is the kind of longer term solution that we're looking to hear. And I said the word distributed earlier. And distributed. So here in Canada, and in most parts of North America, we're used to energy generation happening kind of far away from where we live, right? It's like big coal plants, big natural gas plants that are far away from where we live. And we don't really see them operate very often. And there's huge long transmission lines that get it to our neighborhoods, and then big distribution networks that get it to our homes. With renewable energy, we have the we have the potential to to bring that generation closer to where we need it, where we actually need the end product of the energy. And that can really help build more resilient energy systems as well, because the energy doesn't have as far to go. It's closer to where the demand is. And we maybe have, you know, instead of relying on this one source of energy, we have several sources of energy kind of in the neighborhood that we can be turning to. So So I think that's the Yeah, that's the really like, that's the crux of this kind of transition that we that we need to be going through and in the long run in the long run, that can really offer much lower and more stable energy prices for people. But unfortunately, we've heard a lot of misguided or I think, intentionally misrepresented rhetoric around renewable energy and it having a high cost. And the only reason that that it appears to have a high cost is because fossil fuel energy has been subsidized so heavily for the last century by governments that those fossil fuels tend to have an artist officially lower cost, but we are paying for that artificially lower cost as taxpayers. And so part of the equation here is is leveling out the playing field between fossil fuels and renewable energy by supporting the growth of renewable energy and stopping subsidies to fossil fuels.
Dan Seguin 20:20
Okay, as a customer focus company, Hydro Ottawa understands price and affordability sensitivities. What's your view on how we can meet the massive challenge of decarbonisation of our energy system without creating hardships for some?
Catherine Abreu 20:37
Yeah, there are a lot of models that I think we can learn from around the world. And actually, right here in Canada, there are some really precedent setting models in provinces across this country, to address the concerns around energy affordability, while also carrying on with this very necessary energy system training and session that we have. So a part of how you do that, number one, I mentioned energy efficiency earlier, you can turn energy efficiency into a tool to save people money, and you can target that tool to the people who need it the most. So I a large part of my background, and all my Canadian family is in Nova Scotia. And there is this amazing energy efficiency utility in that province called efficiency, Nova Scotia that are efficiency, why now? but previously efficiency, Nova Scotia, and where they have dedicated programs that go into low income communities that go into renter communities, and help those households reduce their energy consumption, and save money on their energy bills. So that's one. And the other one we can think about is how we allow communities that are currently marginalized in our economic system to profit from the renewable energy revolution, whether that profit is in like hard financial terms, so they're actually going to make some money from it, or in reducing embedded energy costs in those communities. At so here in Canada, we actually already see that about 20% of renewable energy projects are owned by and operating in indigenous communities. And that's huge and exciting, because those communities have often run on, you know, their energy systems are often run on very expensive energy sources like diesel that are very polluting and unhealthy for those communities. And, and often those communities don't have access to economic, the same kinds of economic opportunities as others. And so seeing indigenous communities really lead the charge on renewable energy development in Canada is exciting, because it's bringing prosperity into those communities, it's bringing energy autonomy to those communities, it's giving them something that they can be training community members to do, you know, so it's job creating. So that's another one. And then I'll give one other example. In California, we have this really interesting model where when they introduced their cap and trade system, their carbon pricing system, they said, We're gonna take a portion of the money that we get from this carbon pricing system. And we are going to make sure that lower income households throughout California, have solar panels on their roofs. And we're going to pay for that to happen. And those households in those communities, instead of now getting a check, you know, so here in Canada, our carbon pricing system sends a check to everyone across the country. And that's useful. But in California, we see this model where it's like, instead of getting a check, I have an energy source embedded into my house at no cost, to me, that's substantially lowers my household energy costs. And so I maybe I'm not getting a check every month, but my energy costs every month are eliminated. And so I have much more income at my disposal, because I'm not spending that income on energy. And that I think, is a really powerful model that it would be interesting to think through applying here in Canada. How do we use some of this revenue that we're getting from carbon pricing to make sure that we're addressing energy affordability and the communities that need that?
Dan Seguin 24:26
I'm sure you're aware, there's an incredible amount of momentum around netzero pledges in the public sector governments from around the world and private sector as well. What are your thoughts around these Net Zero commitments from organizations? Is it spin or substance?
Catherine Abreu 24:45
Net-zero by 2050 isn't putting action off until three decades from now? net-zero by 2050 requires concerted action planning activity that starts right now ideally, that started a decade ago and continues on every day between now and 2050.
Dan Seguin 25:05
Canada comes in for criticism for its weak follow up so far on carbon targets. What do you say to Canadians who are skeptical about sufficient action not being taken fast enough?
Catherine Abreu 25:20
Your skepticism is warranted, first of all. Yeah, I mean, it's so unfortunate, right, Canada's really never met a carb climate target, it couldn't miss. We've been setting climate targets since the early 1990s. We haven't met a single one at this point. And I'm really hoping that we can correct for that trend, by using tools that we now have at our disposal, through things like Bill C 12, the netzero Accountability Act, which is a relatively new piece of legislation, just about a year old in Canada. That brings some consistency and some transparency to the climate planning process in Canada. Because this is part of the problem in this country. Our climate planning has been totally ad hoc, so far, right. So we get a government that maybe cares about climate change, maybe they make a commitment on climate emissions reductions, maybe they follow through with that commitment, maybe we hear about how they're doing. Instead, we need this piece of legislation that tells us, okay, every five years, you're going to set a target. By the time you set a target, you have to produce a plan to meet that target within six months. Here's the external expert group that's going to review your plans, going to review your progress, make sure you're on track, make recommendations for how to course correct if you're not make recommendations for how to improve policy, find new opportunities to address emissions while continuing to grow the economy. And this is the model that we've seen employed in other jurisdictions that have been more successful in meeting their climate targets like the UK. So I feel buoyed by the fact and I was I was a big part of the fight to get Bill C 12. passed, it's not perfect, but I think it's a it's a really huge improvement in Canada's climate planning process. So I think we can feel buoyed by that. And that being said, governments across the board have been failing us have been failing their populations, on delivering the scale of ambition that's required to meet this crisis. And I think the thing that we have to do as individuals, if we are feeling concern and despair about that, is we have to activate as political citizens and demand from our political decision makers that they deliver on that scale of action. And I think that's maybe something that we're just coming to here in Canada, unfortunately, climate change has been a rather a rather politically polarized conversation in this country so far. But we're finally getting to a place where every party, regardless of of their of their political identity, understands the climate crisis is a serious issue, and they have to address it. And they need to be hearing from their voters, that their vote is going to be cast according to whether that party is doing what it takes to address this crisis. So So I would say that's it, like, let's have those legislative frameworks in place, let's make sure they're working. Let's make sure you know, we're engaging the independent expertise that we need to assess that. And let's, as a constituency as concerned citizens in this country, let us demand from our political decision makers, that they take the action that's required.
Dan Seguin 28:34
Okay, Catherine, to accelerate success, what are the countries that should Canada be looking to emulate or to learn from?
Catherine Abreu 28:43
There are lessons that I think we can learn from so many places, and, and likewise, there are a lot of other places I think can learn from us, right? We have we also have some good expertise to be sharing at this point. But I mentioned the UK earlier, I think we've really turned to the UK a lot to help us think through this new piece of legislation because the UK was the first to pass climate accountability legislation way back in 2008. And so they've really helped to model that, that system for the rest of the world. And there are now close to 30 jurisdictions around the world that have very similar systems, actually. So we just saw at COP 26, in Glasgow in November, that a consortium like now a global consortium of independent climate expert bodies has been created to to help continue this dialogue around how we actually hold countries accountable for their climate commitments. So that's, I think, a good one and we can also keep looking to the UK for how we detach our our economic growth, our GDP from greenhouse gas emissions because they have been incredibly successful in doing that in the UK. And that has been a big part of how they have been able to their climate commitments they they successfully decoupled their GDP from GHGs. And we are kind of approaching that point in Canada. But we need to kind of surpass it and make sure that our economic prosperity is not tied to increasing emissions. And that I think, has maybe been a bit of a challenge for a country like Canada that is traditionally very natural resource based, and and very oriented toward exploiting and exporting those natural resources, which is, which tends to be very carbon intensive. So so that economic transformation piece, how are we diversifying our economy? How are we investing in those sectors that are going to deliver prosperity, and we often think about those sectors as like, renewable energy. So we do this, like, we're moving from fossil fuel energy to renewable energy. So all the new prosperity and all the new jobs are going to be in renewable energy. But we can also think about sectors like the care economy, hospitals, nurses, long term care facilities, those are generally low carbon industries, right. And so and we know that we need to invest in them on the heels of the COVID-19 crisis. So we can be investing there. And of course, what that all comes along with is this question of just transition, how are we taking care of people and communities as we engage in this economic transformation, and they're really cool lessons that we can learn from other jurisdictions, they're like Scotland, they have done some really amazing work with just transition as they move away from coal. Similarly, in South Africa, we actually again at COP 26, in Glasgow saw this $8.5 billion deal struck with South Africa between a number of other countries, the US, EU, Germany, to support their just transition away from coal dependence. So I think we can also be looking to these other examples of economic diversification and just transition in parts of the world to inform the really necessary economic transition that we that we need to undertake here in Canada and the planning for that.
Dan Seguin 32:12
In Canada, where do you see the biggest opportunity to reduce greenhouse emissions in nature? And where do you see the biggest opportunity in technology?
Catherine Abreu 32:24
Yeah, so we have talked about this a little bit already. And I think those agricultural opportunities are really huge here in Canada, what we haven't really talked about is, is the devastation that we are seeing wrecked in our natural ecosystems, particularly in forests across Canada. And it's actually hard for me not to get really emotional when I think about it. And, and we have really seen, I think, I think many Canadians, if they, if they think about climate change, if they think about carbon sources and sinks in Canada, they assume that our forests are carbon sinks. And in fact, that has not been the case for several years now, our forests in Canada have really turned from carbon sinks, places that can store greenhouse gas emissions to carbon sources. And that is largely because of ongoing deforestation. And the devastating impacts of climate change that, that bring forest fires that bring, you know, more extreme weather events and also bring pests like the pine beetle. So I think a big part of where we need to be focusing our energy right now in Canada is, is figuring out how to reverse that trend, how to protect our forests, how to restore them, and unnecessary deforestation, deforestation. And, you know, I think a really groundbreaking report that came out this year was on indigenous stewardship of lands and how much lands that are stewarded by indigenous peoples around the world. They really outperform lands that are stewarded by by settler populations in terms of carbon sink potential and biodiversity protection. And so I think actually, a big part of the solution on the forest front here in Canada, is increasing the amount of forests that are stewarded by indigenous communities. So that's on the on the nature front, in terms of carbon reduction potential in technologies, or in the industrial sector, you know, the big elephant in the room and Canada's oil and gas sector. It's the largest and fastest growing source of emissions in the country, it's responsible for over a quarter of emissions in Canada outweighs any other sector in the country. And while we have been actually seeing significant emissions reductions in other sectors, you know, the Canadian electricity sector has reduced its emissions over 30% in the in the last couple of decades, right. So, you know, we've been seeing decarbonisation happen, it hasn't been happening as fast as it needs to, but it has been happening in electricity and buildings and transportation, well, not so much in transportation. I'll take that again, we have been seeing decarbonizing, it hasn't happening as fast as it needs to, but it has been happening and the electricity system and the building system. Meanwhile, we really haven't seen that happening in the oil and gas sector. In fact, emissions from the oil and gas sector have increased exponentially in the last 15 years. And so there's a huge potential for emissions reductions in that sector. And a lot of it involves methane reduction, by applying technologies that we have that we know work right now, that can actually create jobs well, while we apply them, and thinking through how we address our production trends to reduce those emissions. And we actually have now a promise from the federal government to cap emissions in the oil and gas sector and set reduction targets every five years. So I think that's a really good move in the right direction.
Dan Seguin 36:10
Now, in your opinion, Catherine, what can government's learn from environmental advocacy and activism?
Catherine Abreu 36:17
What can the government learn? I mean, obviously, there's so I think, like, what is it that you picture when you picture environmental advocacy and activism? Probably you picture people on the streets, right, the huge demonstrations that characterize the fall of 2019, when, you know, half a million people were on the streets of Montreal, and Greta Thunberg, spoke to the crowd there. You know, protests against fossil fuel infrastructure, the, you know, struggles that we're seeing in communities like what su attend right now against the coastal gaslink. That community really trying to protect their traditional territory and say no to more fossil fuel infrastructure. So I think that's really what comes to mind a lot of the time. But in fact, environmental advocacy and activism has a huge diversity of tactics associated with it, right. So there are a lot of really brilliant people who are also thinking through some of these creative solutions that we need to these tricky problems that we have to solve to address the climate crisis. So a lot of what governments can learn from environmental advocacy and activism is actually like really practical hands on ideas for how we tackle this crisis. And but maybe I'll maybe I'll take this answer in a different direction, and say that part of what we can learn is, is action, in the midst of despair. And I think we often ask ourselves, like, how do we have hope, when we're seeing the escalating impacts of the climate crisis, when we're watching the people we love and the places that we cherish, be so hurt by climate change? How do we in the face of that kind of despair? Respond? How do we have hope people talk about hope all the time. But what I often say is, you know, the, the antidote to despair is not hope, it's action. And the environmental community is all about action. That's, that's really what causes a lot of us to this work is the desire to stand in the face of despair, sand in the face of these devastating climate impacts, and do everything we can to mitigate some of the worst impacts of the climate crisis and figure out how we can build resilience and communities against those impacts. So I think maybe that's the that's the thing that I hand to governments is to say, we all need to be in this together that is the spirit of the environmental movement. And we need to be taking action despite the the challenge despite the scale of the crisis, despite the despair we might be feeling. And in fact that action is is what helps us pull ourselves out of that feeling of despair.
Dan Seguin 39:02
Is there an organization activist or movement that is inspiring you?
Catherine Abreu 39:07
This has been my entire career working in this space and I wouldn't have been able to make it my career if I didn't feel inspired every day by my colleagues and amazing community that I get to be a part of, so it's hard to name any one organization or any one movement. I will say that I am so continuously blown away and touched by the fierce and unrelenting advocacy we see from young people and you know, so we've seen the school strike groups fighting for future and young people mobilizing in various configurations to demand a livable future for themselves and their children. And, and that is I think something that gives a lot of us that lifts up a lot of us and gives us a lot have energy to continue our work. Because really, I was reading this Twitter thread the other day, and the author said, we are fighting because our future is shrinking. And it was, it was so read, it resonated so much to hear that it's true, right? I think for a lot of young people, the possibilities that they envision for themselves in the future, are getting smaller and smaller. And we, as a society, as a species, we need to be thinking about how we expand that future. Again, how we, how we invest right now to make sure that the people who are alive after after you and I are gone. Have all of the options all of the rich life that we have been able to, to explore. So So yeah, maybe I'll say that is that I feel inspired by so many organizations by so much of the movement and the passion, the intelligence is coming from young people right now it's giving I think a lot of us a lot of strength.
Dan Seguin 41:06
Okay, Catherine, how about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready?
Catherine Abreu 41:13
I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 41:15
No, Catherine, what is your favorite word?
Catherine Abreu 41:18
'Why?' it's my favorite word, my favorite question. And I'm happy that I really hope I never stop asking it.
Dan Seguin 41:25
Now, what is one thing you can't live without?
Catherine Abreu 41:29
Maybe I'll say my friend, my dog, Fred Pico. He's my nice constant companion and I wouldn't want to live without.
Dan Seguin 41:37
What is something that challenges you?
Catherine Abreu 41:39
I feel challenged by the reluctance that we see from governments to take action. And I feel challenged by that all the time. And we are constantly being told we have the solutions we need, we have the technologies. And the one thing standing in our way is political will. So I feel challenged by that. And that challenge is what brings me to work every day.
Dan Seguin 42:03
Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Catherine Abreu 42:06
This is a really important question. I have often said that my superpower would be to find the finest party wherever I am always. But I think I'm actually pretty good at that already. So maybe I would, say that I would love to have the power to aperate. So I would love to be able to just appear wherever I wanted to whenever I wanted to.
Dan Seguin 42:30
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her,
Catherine Abreu 42:35
I would tell her that she's on the right track, and that her future is not going to look maybe exactly as she pictured it. But that her instinct to really give back to her community and invest in the people around her is going to lead her in the right direction.
Dan Seguin 42:51
And lastly, Catherine, what do you currently find most interesting in your world in your sector?
Catherine Abreu 42:58
That's a really good one. Um, so here's the thing. I actually think a lot of the time are my world that my sector is characterized by kind of like cynicism. And, and certainly a lot of us bring some cynicism to the mix. It's hard not to give in the state of the world. But I would say there's actually this interesting renewed optimism in my world right now, particularly on the heels of COP 26. And that's because it really does seem like the conversation is shifting. And we're starting to talk about the real things right now we're getting down to it. And a big part of that is actually that we're talking seriously about the energy transition. Finally, because this energy transition is the thing that's going to unlock our ability to address the climate crisis, and we need to accelerate that global energy transition. The final plenary at COP 26 All the countries of the world together in a room. It was about it was a debate. It was an hour's long debate about the energy transition. And that's huge, because we actually haven't seen as much direct talk about energy at cops in the past. So that's an interesting thing that's going on. I think a lot of us are actually feeling a little more hopeful that we're finally having these this real talk. So let's let's make sure it gets us to where we need to go.
Dan Seguin 44:18
Well, Catherine, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast I truly loved and enjoyed our conversation today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Catherine Abreu 44:33
I've just started a pretty new organization called Destination Zero. And you can find us as destinationzero.Earth, that website is in development but you'll have a landing page right there that gives you my contact information and on Twitter, I'm @catabreu_
Dan Seguin 44:50
Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Catherine Abreu 44:55
I really don't think so much Daniel.
Dan Seguin 44:58
Thanks for tuning in for anotherepisode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
Cost, inventory, and access to charging stations are major barriers when making the jump to an electric vehicle. In fact, 71% of Uber drivers across Canada said they’re interested in making the switch, but these factors are holding them back. Uber’s Matthew Price joins Dan Séguin and Rebecca Schwartz for an in-depth look at what the company is doing to help make electric vehicles more accessible to their drivers—and Canadians.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, and my co host Rebecca Schwartz, as we explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. In this episode, we'll do a deep dive with Uber and discover how they plan to reduce their carbon footprint. I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:39
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Hey, Dan, have you ever noticed how quickly language changes seemingly overnight? In 2021 words, like Doom-scrolling and adulting were added to the dictionary? While, words like salty were updated with new definitions.
Dan Seguin 00:55
Wait, what salty? What the blank does salty mean now?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:00
Well, it's a term for being bitter, angry or resentful. Like, Dan, don't be salty!
Dan Seguin 01:07
I don't think so. I'm in a great mood. Cool. Anyways, what about popular phrases? The perfect example: It wasn't that long ago, we used to say, let's call a cab. Now it's, let's order an Uber. Between 2017 and 2019, nearly 4 billion rides were taken using Uber in the US and Canada alone. In fact, Uber is the largest mobility platform in the world.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:41
Well, as an avid user myself, there is no question that ride sharing companies like Uber have disrupted the transportation space, providing convenience, accessibility and affordability to riders in nearly every major city around the world. Collectively, ride sharing companies have transformed how we move and commute in our cities, to the point that some critics believe people are foregoing lower carbon forms of transportation, like public transit, biking and walking, resulting in 69% more climate pollution. And that's according to the Union of Concerned Scientists.
Dan Seguin 02:18
With the Canadian government's promise to be zero carbon by 2050. And transportation currently accounted for 28% of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions, there's another disruption and culture shift coming. Recently, Uber released its climate assessment and performance report to address how it plans to aggressively tackle climate change and the missions its business produces,
Rebecca Schwartz 02:44
adopting the mantra that with great power comes great responsibility. Uber is aiming to be an environmental leader and game changer in the mobility and ride sharing space. So here's today's big question: stating that it will be a zero emissions platform by 2040, what are some of the innovative strategies and incentives Uber is introducing to address its carbon footprint?
Dan Seguin 03:07
I'm really interested to talk about what those are in today's show with our very special guest, Matthew Price. Matthew is the general manager of Uber Canada. During Matthew's time at Uber, he helped lead its transformation in Europe, across 15 countries for some of Uber's most strategic cross functional programs. Bonjour Matthew, welcome to the show, perhaps you could start us off by telling us a bit more about yourself and your role at Uber,
Matthew Price 03:38
well, Bonjour and thank you for having me on today. So I'm Matthew price, proud Canadian sustainability enthusiast, and also the general manager of Uber Canada. I joined Uber back in 2015, based in Europe, so a front row seat to how this topic has evolved across that continent helping to implement many of Ubers early policies in terms of driving the green resolution there. And then the privilege then to come back to Canada in 2019. To take on this role, and you know, help Uber start its journey to Mission Zero in Canada. So in my role, I'm responsible for our vision and strategy, the overall performance of our business health of our team and you know, importantly, the customer experience both both riders and drivers.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:22
Thanks, Matthew. Now, can you tell us more about Uber green, and the uptake thus far by customers?
Matthew Price 04:28
Absolutely. So Uber green is our low emissions, right option, electric or hybrid. It is in 16 cities across Canada today. And as an Uber user, you can effectively select Uber green in your app. To request that hybrid or electric ride. It's $1 more than than your Uber X ride, but you're getting to experience something very different. We made a commitment at Uber to be fully emissions zero by 2030. And cities that have supportive policies and 2040 everywhere, globally. In this uber Green was one of our first actions to actually make the commitment a reality. And I will say, I do think, you know, we in ride sharing are really at the next frontier, and can have a real impact here in catalyzing this change. And let me just quickly tell you why. You know, as you might know, gas powered vehicles account for about three quarters of greenhouse gas emissions to transportation and cities today. But not all of those cars are created equal ride sharing drivers use their vehicles much more than your average car owner. And in fact, if, if a driver makes a switch to electric vehicle, you see three to four times greater emission savings compared to your average car. So if you think of the millions of drivers that we as Uber have on the streets across the world, if even a small portion of those drivers make the switch to Go Electric, that's a huge push to getting zero emission transportation off the ground. And importantly, contributing to the scale, that's going to be required to bring down the cost of vehicles and increase the availability of charging, which will we'll talk a lot more about here today.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:01
Alright, so has this resulted in an uptake for drivers to transition to electric vehicles?
Matthew Price 06:07
so drivers that come to our platform with electric vehicle, they have an opportunity to earn $1 more on any trip they take. And if it's an Uber green trip $1.50 More, which at scale is a significant increase in earnings, which, as we know, is really important when it comes to electric vehicles. Because these cars, these vehicles are still, you know, more expensive today than your your internal combustion vehicle. But at the same time, as I mentioned, there are real barriers here in terms of the cost and access to the vehicle and the availability of charging, which is why it's going to take partnership across the ecosystem to drive the uptake that we all want to see. And and I'll give you example of one of the things that we're doing there to make that happen. And I'm really proud to say we just announced yesterday, the following, which is we did a survey of drivers in Canada, 71% of them are interested in switching to electric vehicle, which is big, but you also hear from them that charging is a significant barrier. So we announced a partnership yesterday with Green Lots, which is a member of the shell group to actually create three new charging stations in Vancouver. That's one of the leading EV markets in North America for Uber. And effectively this is Ubers first exclusive partnership across North America to give drivers and delivery people access to fast charging, and access to fast charging at a discounted rate that will make it cheaper than charging at their home. So it's a pilot. It's a blueprint, but it is the type of thing that we need to replicate across Canada and globally to drive that uptake in terms of drivers transitioning to electric vehicles.
Dan Seguin 07:38
That's really interesting, Matthew. Now, Uber recently published its climate assessment and performance report. What were the biggest takeaways from the report? And was there anything that surprised you from the data?
Matthew Price 07:53
Yeah, let me let me talk you through a couple of the key insights in that report. So the first one is that the efficiency of trips with Uber actually improve as ridership grows, let me let me explain what that means, which is from 2017 to the end of 2019. Our average active much monthly ridership, it grew by 36%. But carbon intensity declined by 6%. If you look at that, that three year period, the efficiency improvement results in about a half million metric tons of avoided CO2 and 56 million gallons of gasoline conserved. Interestingly, though, the performance is even more efficient in cities. So you know, again, if you look at the 2019, the carbon intensity of rides in our top 10 metros across North America was about five and a half percent lower than Uber average. And even lower if you look at the the largest cities. But the last thing I'll say there is that we found and reported there that Uber drivers, on average, use hybrid vehicles about five and a half times more than your average car. And that speaks to what I mentioned before in terms of, you know, transitioning one Uber driver into an electric or in this case, a hybrid vehicle has an outsized impact in terms of taking, taking dirty miles and putting clean miles on our streets. I will say the other thing in there is we've referenced a number of policies that we think are going to be important to to kind of accelerate the, the revolution here towards green. Things like increasing the quality and availability of local transit, micro mobility infrastructure, we should talk a bit about that road pricing that includes all vehicles, increasing drivers access to cleaner and electric vehicles, as well as charging availability. And that all really helped inform the actions that we've taken as an organization to work towards the 2030/2040 goal.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:54
Okay, so as a global company with a global impact. I've read that you're developing some innovative strategies to be a zero emission platform by 2040. Can you tell us what are some of those strategies and how you guys plan to get there?
Matthew Price 10:10
Would love to and I touched on a few but but let me let me elaborate. So the way we think about it is, you know, commitments, one thing has to be coupled with action. And there's four key actions that that we're taking. So, you know, the first I've already spoken about, which is expanding ubergreen, you know, and that's gonna give consumers those of us that don't own electric vehicle today an opportunity to experience what it's like, which I think is going to be really important to letting people experience the magic that is an electric vehicle and kind of have that motivate their own choices moving forward. The second one is helping drivers then transition to electric vehicles, we definitely don't have as many on the streets as we need today to service the demand that's there for green. I mentioned green lights already as one way we're doing this. Another instance here, for example, is we have a partnership with General Motors to offer all eligible Uber drivers, effectively the employee discount on a Chevy bolt, which is important to bring down the upfront cost, which which we know is high. And you know, this is important, in addition to federal funding that is that is currently available. We are also investing in our multimodal network. So I mentioned this a moment ago, what that means is, it's going to take more than just offering electric vehicles to fully get to our sustainability goals, we also need to drive mode shifting, which means we need to integrate lime into our app, we've actually done this in Ottawa, where you can now get E bikes and scooters through the Uber app. And we need more partnerships with local transit authorities to give you information and help you figure out how to combine Uber with transit to get to where you need to go. And the last thing I'll say here is we need to be accountable. The Climate report we just talked about is one step in that direction. But it's really just the start, we want to bring our data to the public to the table to discuss how we do this because this is a team sport, we cannot do this alone, it is going to take private and public industry coming together and working towards what I think we all think is a common goal.
Dan Seguin 12:11
Now, Matthew, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges you've identified in your roadmap to zero emissions?
Matthew Price 12:19
So I've touched on a couple, let me quickly reiterate those and I'll add a couple more. So I mean, when when we talk to drivers, again, 70% of what you're interested, it is the cost and the access to the vehicle, keeping in mind that the inventory is not there today for people who want the vehicles. And then it's the the access to charging. In fact, there's a study that came out of California not long ago, that shows unfortunately, one in four electric vehicle drivers switch back to a gas car because of how painful it is to charge which is a problem. So So you know, against those I mentioned earlier that, you know, part of evergreen is about people getting to experience what an electric vehicle is, today electric vehicle is is often, you know, a luxury for more wealthy households, often people kind of buying their second or third vehicle and having it be electric. But the data shows that, you know, every electric vehicle on our platform, on average touches 100 different riders. So you know, that gives a lot of people the opportunity to experience an electric ride. And the reason that's important is that scale is going to help kind of catalyze the shift, which means the scale will lead to more demand for vehicles and over time lower battery costs that bring down the cost. The scale off also offers the demand, that's going to be required to get the charging infrastructure to be installed and have the utilization required to make the economics work for those for those asset owners. So think that's really important. I mentioned earlier that it's going to take more than just private cars. So we need multimodal, we need the regulatory framework in place to roll out multimodal. And the one of the things I'll add to this, it's also about education. There's a lot of people, you know, who don't fully understand what an electric vehicle is what it's like to drive, one of the things we recently did was was rolled out an EV calculator, which means you can now go on and compare as an Uber driver, the cost of a current internal combustion versus electric vehicle through the lens of a driver, including all the subsidies and local benefits available to get a sense for what your total cost of ownership is and what it takes to get it on par. So as I've as I said here a couple times, early days on this journey, I think we know what the barriers are. We don't know how to address all of them, but we also know we're not gonna be able to do this alone.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:40
So Matthew, the integration of multimodal network is innovative, including the incorporation of public transit tickets, lime scooters, and bike rentals and even carpooling to help commuters get from point A to point B. So can you touch on these and tell us why this was the right step in Ubers evolution?
Matthew Price 15:00
Absolutely. And let me let me first talk a little bit more about transit. And I think about it like this today. Most people when they leave their house, they grab their keys, and I hop into their car. And we need to give Canadians something that for the first time is sufficiently convenient that they might consider doing something different, which needs to be more than just offering Uber X and Uber green. But it also needs to be offering new transit options, electric bike and scooter options to effectively help create, you know, a suite of solutions, that makes it more likely you're going to forego the car. And that's important because that car sits idle 95% of the time. And the other 5% is often in meeting carbon emissions with only one person in the vehicle. So the new thing we've done, just in the last few weeks, is rolled out for now just in the GTA, a product called Uber plus transit. And it's a combination of two of our existing products. Uber X and journey planning and how it works is when it convenient routes available, we will actually now help you find an Uber X to the closest transit stop, and then give you the information about how to get to your final destination using public transit. So it's you know, we find that unique ways to combine the two to get you where you want to go, sometimes faster, oftentimes cheaper. And we've integrated this with public transit across the GTA, we're watching the data very closely to see see how it performs. And definitely something we want to roll out across this country to continue to deepen the integration with with public transit, I think it's really, really important as part of the solution. And I think every everyone's you know, everyone, when going from point A to point B, you know, they're they're solving for a slightly different set of things. For some people, it's about what's the green assumption for some people, that's what's the fastest option for some people, it's what's the cheapest option. And you know, I want to I want to offer Canadians ways to solve for all of that, and ways to do it in the most environmentally conscious way.
Dan Seguin 17:00
Okay, Matthew, wondering if you could expand on key takeaways from your operations and the overall impact from this past year during shelter in place, and the golden age of food delivery?
Matthew Price 17:14
Yeah, I mean, we often get this question in terms of, you know, look, you made this, this this commitment to be zero emissions in late 2020. You know, why then? you know, when and, you know, for us COVID-19 was not a barrier, a challenge, it was actually the catalyst to do this. And the reason and we all saw this was for a period of time there, when we looked at our window, we saw our cities breathing again, for the first time, and if you look at the data, carbon emissions, were actually down for a period of time, as we were all sheltering in place. You know, as the industry leader in Canada, we knew we had an obligation, we have responsibility to take advantage of a moment like that, and figuring out how we can build back better, very much aligned to, you know, the leadership, our Canadian government, shown, very much aligned to the Paris Climate Agreement. And that really spawned the commitment around sustainability. And, and the beginning of that, of course, very focused throughout the pandemic, on helping Canadians in need move safely. In terms of helping, you know, drivers find a flexible earning opportunity that for many people was was necessary during, you know, a really big economic crisis. But, you know, we kept the sustainability aspirations front and center. And I'm really pleased, this is one of the ways that we are building back better. And, you know, in some sense of silver lining for what's been a really, really difficult time for all of us over the last 18 months.
Rebecca Schwartz 18:44
Okay, let's talk about government and industry partnerships, including Ubers advocacy for key policy reform, what are some of the changes you'd like to see in these new collaborations for the transportation sector?
Matthew Price 18:57
There's no silver bullet here. And, you know, it's going to take all parties coming together, you know, solving for our common goal as, as Canadians and what is the biggest challenge of our generation, in terms of how to make this this kind of low carbon future a reality. There's a long list of things here at the federal level, at the provincial level, at the municipal level. I'll say to that, I think are particularly important to, you know, how we catalyze a lot of what we've talked about here from using ride sharing as a way to share this. You know, one, we've talked about it, we think Uber green is really important in terms of, you know, helping people experience electric, which will help people upgrade to their own electric vehicle will help create some of the the demand required to bring down the cost to make this happen. There's ways that cities can incentivize the use of Uber green. You know, what we've seen in a number of cities, Vancouver's done it. In fact, Pearson airports done it, is they've actually reduced the per trip fee on zero emission vehicles, which makes it for you as a rider cheaper to take to take a green truck. And I do think, you know, there's there's an opportunity to do more of that, to help to to, to, you know, enable that part of what's going to be a key part of the the transition. I think the other thing is, you know, there's real opportunities for us to work as a, you know, ride sharing and taxi industry to think about how to do this in the right way. And you know, very much encouraging cities across the country to create a vehicle for higher working group, bring the right stakeholders to the table, that's going to be all levels of government, it's going to be the private transport companies, taxi companies, utilities, others, and let's talk about things like what are the barriers? And really specific barriers in that specific city? what are best practices we can bring from other jurisdictions? What's the roadmap to get there? There's no silver bullet, as I said, off the top. But, you know, it's these types of things, often with government leading, supported by organizations like ours that will get us to where we need to be.
Dan Seguin 21:10
And Matthew, does Canada's commitment to zero carbon by 2050 make collaboration easier compared to other countries?
Matthew Price 21:18
I think the answer to that is absolutely. We need that constructive relationship we talked about with local government, there's no other way to do it. And very much seen that and I'm just really pleased and proud as a Canadian to see our government leading in the space. You know, partnerships, like what I've talked about here with Greenlaw are going to be key. The way we kind of take that blueprint and expanded across the country is in part with government helping to pave the way.
Dan Seguin 21:45
Now in Canada, more than 3 million people use Uber regularly across 18 cities. I'm curious about Ottawa, what is your data telling you about our mobility habits?
Matthew Price 21:58
happy to share some data on on Ottawa, one of our early Canadian cities that we that we brought Uber to, I'll tell you the following. So most most trips in Ottawa happened during commuting times. 8am 4pm To be specific, and of course, on weekends. I can tell you that the people of Ottawa had a lot of fun on Halloween, a really big spike over Halloween weekend. And some of the top destinations in Ottawa are the Rideau center ByWard Market area, Elgin street downtown, via rail station and TD place stadium. Ottawa is a really, really important city for us. And one, you know, in particular, where we are excited to partner with all levels of government and, you know, organizations such as hydro Ottawa, to to make this green future reality.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:51
Okay, Matthew, we're coming to the end. So how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready? What is your favorite word?
Matthew Price 23:01
Oh, hello. Maybe that's my most frequent word. If nothing else,
Rebecca Schwartz 23:08
tell us one thing you absolutely cannot live without?
Matthew Price 23:11
music.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:13
What is something that challenges you?
Matthew Price 23:15
I would say how to integrate work and life. I love both sides of that equation so much. There's only so much time in a day and how you balance the two continues to be a real challenge for me.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:26
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Matthew Price 23:29
I would love the ability to pause time and lengthen those kinds of special moments are busy workdays to get a bit more.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:39
Now let's say you were talking to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?
Matthew Price 23:44
Life is short. And there's no substitute for passion and doing things that you love.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:49
And lastly, what do you find most interesting in your sector right now.
Matthew Price 23:54
This one probably won't be a surprise given the conversation we just had. But I think ride sharing it's fundamentally changed how people move around our cities. I think the next frontier is for ride sharing to fundamentally catalyze this electric revolution.
Dan Seguin 24:07
Well, Matthew, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Matthew Price 24:17
I did indeed. It was great to meet you both. Thank you for having me on and all the good work you're doing to to help make Ottawa a green city.
Dan Seguin 24:28
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review whereever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
This week, we have a special holiday episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Inspired by one of our favourite Christmas movies, A Christmas Carol, we’re here to present some podcast “ghosts” of past, present and future. Get ready to buckle up because we’re going on an adventure to recap three of our top episodes from 2021.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:53
Ho, ho, ho, everyone. Welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast and I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:00
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz.
Dan Seguin 01:02
This week, we have a very special holiday episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, inspired by one of my favorite Christmas movies, A Christmas Carol. We're here to present some podcast ghosts of the past, the present, and future.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:23
Ooh, podcast ghost - sounds spooky. Should we be worried? What do you have in store for us, Dan?
Dan Seguin 01:30
That just building some suspense for you. But get ready to buckle up? Because we're going on an adventure to recap three of the top episodes from this year.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:42
I'm ready. Dan, where should we start?
Dan Seguin 01:44
Let's start with the Ghost of Christmas Past. In the movie, the ghost represents memory. So let's take a trip down memory lane to our episode on how Ontario used to burn coal as an energy source: A reminder of how far we've come in the energy industry to clean up our energy supply mix. Back in 2003 25% of electricity in Ontario came from coal plants. Did you know cold emissions were a major source of air pollution that contributed to 53 smog days in Ontario alone in 2005. That same year, my great City of Ottawa had 25. For those that may not know smog days would be declared in the province on days when the air wasn't as safe to breathe. Due to the amount of toxins in the air in 2014. Ontario was the first jurisdiction in North America to completely eliminate coal as a source of electricity production. According to air quality, Ontario, the province phased out of coal has been considered to have achieved the most significant results of any climate change initiative in North America to date. Now, today 94% of electricity generated in Ontario is emission free, and those smog advisories are all but a thing of the past. There's no doubt that Ontario has been a leader in fighting climate change and investing in cleaner energy sources. By 2030. Canada will phase out traditional coal fired electricity in the country altogether, striving to have 90% of electricity from non emitting sources, and simultaneously cutting carbon pollution from the electricity sector by 12 point 8 million tons.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:48
This is a great reminder. What did our guest or should I say ghost have to say about this transition away from coal in this episode?
Dan Seguin 03:56
I'm glad you asked Rebecca. Here's what Gideon Foreman had to say:
Gideon Forman 04:02
In terms of the impacts. The biggest impact that we talked about now is the climate impact. The coal plants at their height were the equivalent of millions of cars on our roads. When we took the coal plants out it was like removing 6 million cars from Ontario's roads. So they were a very, very significant source of greenhouse gases. And they also produced other things that were toxic things like mercury, for example, and arsenic. So they were also a significant source of human health problems. They made asthma worse, what they call the particulate matter in smog. Some of that came from coal plants and particulate matter is a factor in lung cancer. So a number of different ailments were connected to the coal plants.
Dan Seguin 04:47
And here's what he said about the case for eliminating coal fired electricity in Ontario.
Gideon Forman 04:53
The Case for closing the coal plants was that they were just a massive, massive source of greenhouse gas emissions and other contributors to pollution, things like nitrous oxides and sulfur oxide, sulfur dioxide. So they were contributing to climate change, they were contributing to acid rain, and they were contributing to human illness on a very big scale. And the other reason that it made sense to close them was it was something doable. In Ontario, because they were publicly owned, there was an opportunity to do it in quite a rapid and efficient manner. You know, in many places, coal plants are privately owned, in the United States, for example. And so if they're privately owned, it's very difficult to close them quickly. There's all sorts of issues around compensation and government has to step in. And it can be very complicated legally. But in Ontario, all the coal plants are owned by the government of Ontario. So the government of Ontario could close them basically through the stroke of a pen. And that's what happened, it was over a number of years. But that's what happened, the Ontario government decided that by 2014, they would no longer be coal used to produce electricity in the province. And that's what happened. So it was a matter of something that would have huge impact. And that was doable. That was kind of the thinking behind it. In terms of backlash, there wasn't a lot of backlash. There were some who raised concerns about the transition, loss of jobs for workers in the coal plants. There were some questions about electricity supply. But for the most part, I think there was a lot of public acceptance that we had to get off coal, this was something really good to do from an air quality point of view. And increasingly, from a climate change point of view. In terms of who drove the coal phase out, a lot of it was pushed by health professionals, the Ontario Medical Association, doctors, including some of the doctors that I work with, in physicians for the environment, nurses, Ontario, public health officials, medical officers of health, these sorts of people and family physicians, these sorts of people saw firsthand the effect of smog of bad air on people's lives. And they talked openly about it. And so was very much driven, I think, by the health professionals. I remember one time, Dan, when I was working with the physicians for environment, we we arranged a meeting to meet with the Minister of Environment for the province of Ontario and I brought in doctors I brought in nurses and we had an opportunity to talk across the table with the minister. And it was just fascinating for the Minister to see firsthand the effect of coal on people's lives in a very direct way. I remember one of our doctors from Kingston. She said, you know, Minister, there are times when the weather when the air quality is so poor, that my patients can't go outside, and I really worry for them. And if you close the coal plants, this would make a huge difference in the lives of my patients. And you could see the minister really connecting with that at a very human level. So it wasn't just an abstraction for our doctors. And so I think that was one of the driving forces behind the coal plant phase out.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:03
Boy, am I ever glad that smog warnings are now vague and distant memory. I'm so grateful for everyone who stood up for eliminating coal. It makes me excited for how much more we can do for a cleaner energy.
Dan Seguin 08:16
Now, are you ready for us to dive into the next one? This time, I have a podcast ghosts of Christmas present for you. Now this ghost represents generosity and goodwill. So the episode we'll be revisiting is The Birds and the Bees about Pollinator Meadows, where we chat about a sustainable approach to building out electrical infrastructure, one that supports the vegetation and wildlife. Did you know that across North America, the populations of Monarch butterflies, bees and other pollinators are in a steep decline due to herbicides, pesticides, climate change, and a reduction in natural pollinator habitats. pollinators are responsible for a third of the world's food supply, so they are extremely vital to our existence in Canada. There are more than 1000 species of pollinating animals that are responsible for billions of dollars worth of Canadian farm produce flowers, and ecosystems that rely on pollination. In short, without pollinators, food supply would suffer drastically. It may seem like an unlikely Union, but utilities like hydro Ottawa are ideally suited to restore these environments, thanks to a number of utility corridors and properties in their service territories, not to mention the kilometers of power lines and right aways along roadsides. Moreover, vegetation along utility corridors are compatible with these types of vegetation necessary to support pollinators. In 2019, hydro Ottawa began civil construction of its largest ever municipal transformer station in the south end of Ottawa, situated on 24 acres of land since the new transformer station requires only five acres of property, hydro Ottawa partnered with the city of Ottawa Rito Valley Conservation Authority and the Canadian Wildlife Federation to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario, adjacent to this future station. The agreement means that 15 acres will be dedicated to a pollinator meadow, which is scheduled for seeding. In the spring of 2021, a four acre tree reforestation area was reforested in 2020, with 2750 trees, thanks to the Rita River Conservation Authority. Tracy Etwell, a restoration ecologist with the Canadian Wildlife Federation, and Megan McDonald, Lake planning and shoreline stewardship coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. Join me for this episode to share what goes into a successful pollinator meadow and how we can as an industry, and as ordinary citizens generously help the movement by building more pollinator Meadows.
Tracy Etwell 11:39
Utilities are a key player in our pollinator restoration efforts as they maintain over 160,000 kilometers of transmission lines 1000s of generation stations across Canada, which has huge potential for pollinator habitat restoration, also their linear design are relatively easy for pollinators to find. Since utilities need to control the woody species over the long term along these facilities. It provides a great place for the wildflowers and grasses to grow. And it provides a great opportunity for utilities to demonstrate environmental leadership and provide the habitat. That's that's a win win for the utilities and the pollinators. So the Canadian Wildlife Federation is committed to supporting pollinators for both our diverse biodiversity and our food supply. As you mentioned, many of the nutritious plants eat such as fruits and vegetables rely on insect pollination, and 90% of the world's flowering plants rely on insect pollination. So it's critical that as a global society, we support these insect pollinators. Now our project is focused on a variety of support such as technical expertise in building these meadows, increasing the native seed supply in Ontario, and providing case studies of the costs and benefits of restoring meadow habitat. We work with interested managers to develop their respective projects. And we've also only recently formed the Canadian branch of rights of way within the US rights of way habitat working group to enhance our network so that we have more access to resources, case studies and best practices.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:04
I love that utilities are working together with ecologists and stewardship coordinators to think outside the box and to discover new approaches that are environmentally sustainable. Birds and bees, while they may be small creatures, make our world a better place in so many ways. And I'm so glad that we're looking out for them. Thanks for another great recap, Dan. Tell us where are you leaving us for the podcast Ghost of Christmas Future.
Dan Seguin 13:31
So in the movie, The Ghost of Christmas Future represents something pretty grim. The fear of death.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:39
I forgot about that. I'm not sure I'm prepared for this now.
Dan Seguin 13:43
Nah, don't worry. The closest we've come to that theme on our podcast is probably our crisis communications episode. But I'd like to take a more uplifting approach and share the final recap that looks to the future through a positive lens. For this reason, my next and last podcast Ghost of Christmas Future is unlocking a sustainable energy future with today's youth. Much like the podcast Ghost of Christmas Present., we celebrate environmental stewardship in this episode, but also the exciting possibilities for upcoming generations to unlock.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:24
Ah, now we're talking let's go.
Dan Seguin 14:27
With every new generation that comes of age, there's a fresh perspective introduced to the table. Young people offer incredible opportunities for change with their new ideas and verve. However, part of the challenge for young people around the world is finding a platform from which their voice can be heard and valued. Without well established networks and resources. Young people can easily be stifled or forgotten. Thankfully, when it comes to the energy sector, climate change, and what's in store for the future, an organization by the name of student energy seeks to bridge that gap. Student energy is a global youth led non for profit organization that strives to empower young people to accelerate their sustainable energy transition. They connect young people to global changemakers and provide them access to decision making spaces, so that they have opportunities to play a part in their energy future. They started with three driven students who, in 2009, is set out to organize the first international student energy summit. Since then, it has expanded into a global organization, with programs engaging over 50,000 students from over 120 countries, alumni are going on to develop and implement renewable energy technologies, advise the United Nations and advocate for a clean energy future while working with some of the largest energy companies. In this episode Shakti Ramkumar, Director of Communications and policy for student energy shares about how the energy industry utilities, and we, as individuals can support youth in establishing a sustainable energy future.
Shakti Ramkumar 16:34
I think there are two main things that we've recognized are distinct about young people's values when it comes to the energy transition that kind of makes this era of the environment and climate movement a little bit different than the previous era. One is the timeline in which young people expect action. We're seeing commitments now, finally, from companies and governments about aiming for net zero emissions by 2050. And young people who are climate activists are saying, Okay, that's good, but we need to see action right now. And that's why our Global Youth Energy Outlook actually works on a timeline leading up to 2030, not 2050, as we will have to take drastic climate action by then if we want to act in accordance with climate science. So as the years pass, and our global climate commitments are still not strong enough to meet the 1.5 degree target that we've set as a collective, the sense of urgency among young people, I think, is something that is really distinct. The second big value that we've seen from young people is that we're not siloed in our thinking, and that young people won't consider it a success, if we successfully decarbonize our energy system, are the harms that the current energy system has inflicted on people and communities, and haven't made sure that the benefits of the Clean Energy Transition are equitably distributed. So an emphasis on seeing energy as a mechanism through which we can build a more just and equitable society is something that is a really strong value for young people that I think it's something new, to the energy transition. And on the question of what can older generations do at student energy, we really value intergenerational collaboration, we have a lot to learn from people who have set up the energy system as it is now about the complexities and the nuances of producing distributing supplying energy. So we really value intergenerational collaboration. And there's three main things that I think older generations can do, particularly those with resources or power to make decisions. One very simple invest in young people that can look like financially supporting youth led organizations, youth led projects, or investing time through mentorship and guidance to is understand the value of youth, a lot of organizations, we want them to really think, are we meaningfully engaging with young people? What can we do to meaningfully and equitably engage with young people, not just on a tokenistic basis, but on a really kind of equal relationship. And this is something student energy often works with organizations to help them figure out especially if they're navigating youth engagement for the very first time. And the third thing, I would say is to create space for young people, older generations who have access to a large platform or an influential position. Think actively about how you can make young space for young people using that privilege. Whether this looks like asking an event organizer, why there are no young people on the panel and recommending some young people showing that panel, whether it looks like bringing up in a meeting, why we're not funding youth led organizations, or taking into consideration the youth voice when making that next strategy, that next plan. These are some tangible ways that older generations can really support young people.
Dan Seguin 19:48
How's that for inspiration? Feeling empowered Rebecca?
Rebecca Schwartz 19:52
Not gonna lie. I definitely feel fired up by all that Shakti had to say there. So how are you going to support me Dan? Fresh, hip, young mind that I am
Dan Seguin 20:02
Funny you should say that because I'm about to put you on the hot seat. You know how we always end off with some rapid fire questions? Well today, it's your turn to answer them. So, over to you. Now, Rebecca, what is your favorite word?
Rebecca Schwartz 20:23
My favorite word is Pomplamoose...like grapefruit just has a roll off the tongue type of thing.
Dan Seguin 20:33
Sure. What is the one thing you can't live without?
Rebecca Schwartz 20:37
My cats.
Dan Seguin 20:38
Now, what is something that challenges you?
Rebecca Schwartz 20:42
waking up in the morning
Dan Seguin 20:44
You're not a morning person?
Rebecca Schwartz 20:47
It eems not.
Dan Seguin 20:49
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Rebecca Schwartz 20:53
Definitely teleportation.
Dan Seguin 20:55
Now this one should be interesting. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?
Rebecca Schwartz 21:04
I would tell her to keep saying yes to opportunities and that you'll go way further that way.
Dan Seguin 21:10
And lastly, Rebecca, what's on your wish list this holiday season?
Rebecca Schwartz 21:15
Okay, so there's a little bit not so much a rapid fire question. But I'm really passionate about food security and reducing waste. So my wish would be that those who can give choose to give this holiday season and a really good place to start is an organization that I'm really fond of. It's called Second Harvest. And they're a Food Rescue charity with a dual mission of providing hunger relief and environmental protection. And they redistribute overstock surplus food across Canada and all provinces and territories. And they feed things like school programs, senior centers, food banks, and the like. So if you have an appetite to donate this holiday season, we'll include a link in our show notes.
Dan Seguin 21:57
Very cool. Well, dear listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you had a lot of fun and happy holidays.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:11
Happy holidays Dan, and to you our listeners. I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review.
Dan Seguin 22:24
Now For show notes and bonus content visit thinkenergypodcast.ca. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:33
Thank you for listening
The energy sector, specifically electricity, is evolving at a rapid pace. But some folks may not realize that 94 per cent of Ontario’s electricity is generated without producing any greenhouse gas emissions. That’s pretty remarkable. So, what can customers expect from their local hydro utility today and in the future? How are they influenced by the government and its regulators? Teresa Sarkesian, the President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association, is here with us today to fill us in.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:33
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. And in today's episode, we'll explore the need for our sector to have a collective voice. I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:03
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Dan, I don't know if you knew this, but before starting at Hydro Ottawa, I never really gave electricity much thought it was just kind of something that was always there. I didn't really know before starting here, just how much a local utility company did, how they are really on the frontlines every day keeping our complex electricity grid working and the lights on for all of us.
Dan Seguin 01:26
Or probably what a regulated industry is in Ontario, or that utilities don't even make the profit from selling energy.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:36
Definitely. And with Hydro Ottawa being a private company, it seems a little counterintuitive.
Dan Seguin 01:42
Yeah. Local hydro utilities, also known as local distribution companies distribute power from high voltage transmission lines: those big metal towers you see, to lower voltage hydro poles, so that it can be safe enough for more than 5 million residential, business, industrial and institutional customers across our province.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:07
Yep. And that includes the installation and maintenance of power lines, pools, underground cables, metering, implementing electrical vehicle infrastructure, and in some cases, even generating electricity themselves through renewable energy sources.
Dan Seguin 02:23
The energy sector specifically electricity is evolving at a rapid pace. But some folks may not realize that 94% of Ontario's electricity is generated without producing any greenhouse gas emissions. That's pretty remarkable. So here's today's big question: What can customers expect from their local hydro utility today? And in the future? How are they influenced by the government and its regulators?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:55
Our guest today is Teresa Sarkesian, and the President and CEO of Electricity Distributors Association. Teresa, welcome to the show. Perhaps you could start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what the electricity Distributors Association does.
Teresa Sarkesian 03:15
Well, thank you so much, Rebecca, and Dan, and I'm delighted to be here today. So a little bit about myself. I joined the EDA 12 years ago, after successive positions working in the public policy and advocacy space in the provincial government with a lobby firm and another industry association in the manufacturing sector. I've been president and CEO for over five years now, which I can't believe it really has flown by quickly. As for the association, the Electricity Distributors Association is the voice of Ontario's electricity distribution sector to decision makers at Queen's Park. We are the trusted and vital source for advocacy insight information for Ontario's LDCs. The municipally owned privately owned companies that safely and reliably deliver electricity to over 5 million Ontario homes, businesses and public institutions. Our mission is to provide our local distribution companies with a valued industry knowledge, networking opportunities and collective action vital to the business success of each member. And our vision is to shape the future for LDCs to be the premier service providers to Ontarians in the evolving energy system.
Dan Seguin 04:20
As the voice for more than 60 local distribution companies. Maybe you can talk about the power of local hydro campaign, its purpose, and what you're trying to convey to residents of Ontario,
Teresa Sarkesian 04:34
Of course, so in 2018, the EDA launched its innovative and award winning power of local hydro campaign, which is a public relations program designed to position and promote the local hydro utilities to government and the public. The goal of the campaign was to raise awareness and visibility of the sector and the value they provide to customers and communities. That value includes providing safe and reliable electricity service support to customers on innovative programs and solutions and providing economic support through dividends. So communities can invest in roads, hospitals, and recreation centers. One of the most important aspects of the campaign is that customers count on and trust the local utility to keep the lights on and help them manage their energy use. We have the trust because we work with our customers one on one in the communities where they live, work and play LDCs have a customer first mindset, which is communicated through the campaign with the tagline being on the frontlines of power,
Dan Seguin 05:34
Being in public affairs. I'm looking forward to your response for the next question. Does the campaign have more significance in any election year like 2022? And if so, why?
Teresa Sarkesian 05:47
Yes, Dan, I think the power of local hydro campaign has more significance during an election year. As distributors, we continue to have our fingers on the pulse of what Ontarians want from their electricity system. And we want to help customers better understand the evolving electricity system now that electricity is being seen as the answer to many climate change and netzero challenges. Customers will turn to their local utility to ask questions and seek advice on a wide range of electricity matters. And similarly, candidates and politicians will monitor what EDA has to say around electricity issues, as they understand that LDCs are on the frontlines with customers and know what is important to them.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:29
So, Teresa, your organization has communicated that Ontario's power system is changing and that local utilities are on the front lines. What exactly do you mean by that?
Teresa Sarkesian 06:39
customer demands and expectations are changing both in terms of interest in using new technologies, as well as service oriented expectations. Many households and businesses are embracing new ways to manage their power use while exploring electric vehicles, solar panel installation, battery storage switching from gas to electric heating, through ground source heat pumps, and other cost saving technologies that help reduce energy waste. Customers are looking for information and advice to connect to the distribution grid and possibly sell their surplus generation or storage back to the grid. The relationship with the customer is now developing into a two way street much more dynamic and integrated than in the past, when the flow of energy was one way only, and LDCs are well positioned to facilitate electrification of the economy, such as supporting the development of electric vehicle charging infrastructure, and to capitalize on the opportunities related to energy storage from electric vehicles connecting to the grid LDCs are ready and able to assist, operate and own charging infrastructure services to plug in the growing demand for private and public electrify transportation. We want to work with government and third parties to help customers explore these options safely and cost effectively while ensuring that we deliver on our responsibility to maintain the reliability of the distribution grid.
Dan Seguin 08:00
Okay, Teresa, I understand that the Electricity Distributors Association relies on input and guidance from dedicated subject matter experts who serve on the diverse councils and committees. Could you impact or provide examples of how these groups guide the development of your policies and how that impacts utilities and electricity customers?
Teresa Sarkesian 08:24
Thanks for that question, Dan. We have over if you can believe this 150 volunteers from the LDC members that serve on one or more of our eight standing councils and committees. They are an extraordinarily committed group of subject matter experts from all corners of the province, representing utilities and communities of all sizes. These EDA councils and committees come together in response to government agency and regulatory consultations and some are very, very technical. The EDA is the platform that brings the industry together and we build consensus based industry positions to present to government agencies and regulators in the province. Over the past couple of years, we have prepared 50 policy submissions annually, and we are on track to do the same in 2021. Examples are far reaching from building changes to enable a customer choice model to supporting the implementation of broadband expansion to shaping ISO market renewal design. Our elected board also provides additional policy guidance on longer term issues. Our power to connect vision papers which set out a 15 year vision to explore new business models for LDCs in enabling distributed energy resources, were some recent strategic thought leadership from our board. And we are exploring more policy work in the area of net zero impacts on the distribution sector. So stay tuned for further insights on that issue. Our volunteers are highly engaged, and I would like to thank them for their time and expertise to the industry.
Rebecca Schwartz 09:55
Can you provide us with examples where collectively with utilities you proposed and advanced policy solutions at Queen's Park, which ones are you most proud of?
Teresa Sarkesian 10:05
Well, we have so many examples, Rebecca. So it was hard for me to choose. But I'm going to pick a couple from the last couple of years because I think during the pandemic, I'm particularly proud of our advocacy when things are so chaotic, down with decision makers at Queen's Park. So one way we demonstrated our customer first mandate was related to the COVID Energy Assistance Program. At the beginning of COVID. Last year, the EDA raised concerns with government that customers were struggling with electricity costs. Because of the lockdown associated with the pandemic. The EDA in its members developed and tabled ideas to provide financial support to residential and small business customers, and to provide partial relief from the global adjustment for larger customers. From there, we work closely with the Ministry of Energy to develop and implement the guidelines for the COVID-19 energy assistance program called CEAP and later the CEAP Small Business Initiative, with government providing 17 million in funding through the first phase of the pandemic. After a subsequent advocacy push from EDA and 2021. An additional 23 million was approved for the CEAP programs. CEAP has assisted more than 62,000 Ontario households and more than 13,000 small businesses. And the CEAP program is a great example of how utilities put customers first. And we're particularly proud of that because it was such a trying time, and it feels good to know that customers were supported by the utilities. The second example is our long standing advocacy efforts on the Ontario Energy boards modernization. We were very pleased this past year to see many of the EDA's modernization recommendations incorporated into the Minister of Energy's mandate letter to the OB chair. This issue has been and continues to be a multi year priority for our sector, we are confident that there will be constructive change ahead to reduce regulatory burden for LDCs. So utilities can focus more on meeting customer needs as the energy sector transforms.
Dan Seguin 12:01
Okay. Now, in your vision paper the power to connect advancing customer driven electricity solutions for Ontario, what are you proposing as a new way forward for Ontario's electricity system?
Teresa Sarkesian 12:16
As you know the electricity sector is transforming rapidly, we are moving towards a two way electricity flow. With more customers generating and storing energy behind the meter, LDCs have a unique opportunity to be at the forefront of grid transformation by deploying these enabling technologies and developing a service platform that provides new innovative offerings to customers and DER providers. We recognize consumers as drivers of change and local distribution utilities are really at the center of that change with them. We can leverage new technologies to deliver high quality electricity services, and help customers connecting to the grid. We envision local utilities owning operating and integrating small scale clean energy and storage systems, also known as distributed energy resources right into the local grid to better meet consumer needs while augmenting the bulk power grid. We think LDCs should have a greater role as we move forward in areas such as digitalization of utilities in the grid planning locally, regionally and for the bulk system, and to provide alternatives where possible, that are lower cost than traditional capital investments.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:27
Okay, great. So now how can utilities best serve the interests of its customers in today's evolving industry?
Teresa Sarkesian 13:34
Well, I think Rebecca, we can best serve the interests of our customers by doing what LDCs do best. That's by continuing to build connections and trust with Ontarians through our customer centric approach to service by staying close and by providing knowledge and guidance to our customers on what matters to them most. Whether that's managing bills, conservation programs, ensuring reliability, supporting EV charging connections, whatever it may be. LDCs are trusted by customers and expected to have the answers and solutions to help them engage in a customized way with the evolving energy grid.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:08
Alright, so our utilities aligned with Ontario's long term energy plan as it relates to cost effective electricity and greenhouse gas emission reduction targets?
Teresa Sarkesian 14:18
Well, that's a great question because Ontario has a relatively clean grid compared to many other jurisdictions. While there is still room to improve, we need to focus efforts on reducing greenhouse gas emissions, where we will achieve the greatest reduction. therefore reducing emissions in the transportation sector and in the building sector are expected to play a bigger role in meeting broader climate change targets given that emissions from those two sectors comprise approximately 60% of all greenhouse gas emissions in Ontario. And utilities are very keen to support the fuel switching from gas to electric vehicles as a critical part of reducing greenhouse gases in Ontario. It poses an interesting challenge that as we decarbonize our economy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, electricity use is expected to actually grow, we need to ensure that low or no emitting resources are pursued, such as renewables, energy storage and energy efficiency, along with other emerging technologies, such as hydrogen and small modular reactors. Presently, Ontario does not have a comprehensive public policy framework on these matters. We are looking forward to new direction coming out of the province on a multitude of initiatives including a new long term energy plan, and electrification strategy potentially from the Ministry of Transportation, and a new environmental plan from the Ministry of the Environment. I do want to speak to the electricity system because we would like to see a renewed emphasis on conservation and energy efficiency, with LDCs being at the forefront of these initiatives. For every kilowatt hour saved, one less kilowatt hour needs to be generated. Ontario has an unusual arrangement where conservation is centrally run, and not led by the local distribution companies, which is the more common practice in other jurisdictions across North America. LDCs are keen to provide conservation programs as part of a broader, more comprehensive package of solutions to help customers manage energy use and costs. LDCs were very successful in delivering conservation in Ontario the past few years LDCs deliver conservation at a cost of 1.5 cents a kilowatt hour, which was unparalleled in North America. It would be great to bring back that cost efficient and effective approach to the province and put LDCs back in the driver's seat on designing and delivering conservation for customers.
Dan Seguin 16:48
Same line of questioning here Teresa, can you share with our listeners the views of your association on the long term strategy for EVs and electrification in Ontario?
Teresa Sarkesian 17:02
So LDCs are at the forefront and have the expertise and relationships that will be crucial to expanding electrification. LDCs need to be central to supporting an electrification strategy in Ontario given the challenges utilities will face with increased load and capacity issues. And there is an opportunity to also harness the storage capacity of electric vehicle batteries to assist with grid reliability, particularly in emergency situations. But for LDCs to fully seize this opportunity ahead and effectively manage the challenges associated with large scale electrification, regulatory frameworks need to be better aligned with these fast emerging trends. Incorporating electrify transportation infrastructure should be viewed with the same regulatory lens as investing in poles, wires and transformers. There is a broader societal benefit. And while many LDCs are eager to build EV infrastructure, they face barriers today and getting in included in their rate base. That in turn is a crucial factor in enabling them to justify it amortize a significant upfront investment required to ensure system reliability with growing EV charging. And the same challenge applies to investments needed to support transit and fleet electrification as well. The current rate classes are not well suited to fast charging requirements and this is a disincentive to strategic infrastructure investment in the context of transit and fleet charging in particular, overnight or other rate classes designed to accommodate and equitably price fleet EV charging has already been implemented elsewhere and are needed in Ontario.
Dan Seguin 18:38
Thanks. Now, what is your organization's role in the electrification of transportation?
Teresa Sarkesian 18:45
So it's an exciting time for the sector to be part of this and electrification will play a significant part in Ontario's netzero future and LDCs need to play a key role in enabling the full potential of EVs in Ontario. So what is the EDA doing? so the EDA continues to participate in multi stakeholder discussions with a range of parties and government officials. Currently, we are participating on the transportation electrification Council, which is a working groups set up by the Ministry of Transportation. And that's going to go on for the next few more months, but recurring themes today include the need for rate basing of charging infrastructure to help stimulate expansion of public charging networks and for the longer term benefit of ratepayers and also discussion of challenges relating to household EV charging, such as the potential need for major electrical upgrades. But we have ongoing advocacy related to electrification, not only with the Ministry of Transportation, but across government and with the agencies and the regulator.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:45
Teresa, in one of your policy papers, Roadmap to a brighter Ontario, you identified current barriers to the evolution of local distribution companies for the future. Can you expand on what those are and perhaps what are some solutions?
Teresa Sarkesian 19:59
Absolutely. At least so currently we are as a sector lacking a comprehensive regulatory framework on distributed energy resources. There are some consultation and review processes in play at both the Ontario Energy Board and at the Independent Electricity System Operator, but they are both at the fairly early development stage, there needs to be the ability to have remuneration and more certainty and clarity, going forward to establish the role of LDCs in supporting and optimizing the electricity grid. So I want to talk about a few barriers that we have identified. So one of the challenges we have is that we must improve the distribution system plans through investments in grid visibility, we need to ensure that LDCs are permitted to make investments in grid visibility to benefit fully from the value of DERs. And by improving visibility, it will ensure that the distribution system plans are developed with greater certainty and prudence. Greater visibility also increases the ability of LDCs to coordinate with the ISO to further optimize broader electricity system benefits. Another area of concern we have is we need to remove restrictions on LDC ownership of DER resources. Currently, LDCs are restricted to owning DERs of 10 megawatts or less, there should be more flexibility in owning the large DERs and the LDC sector also needs more clarity on behind the meter ownership of the DERs. There is some light guidance by the OEB right now that will allow the ownership of behind the meter non wires alternatives, as they call them, if it can be demonstrated to be more cost effective than traditional capital investments, but we still need more certainty to ensure that is the case going forward. Another area of concern for our sector is we need to allow LDCs to control and operate DER assets for two primary purposes. And these are often DER assets that are owned by customers behind the meter. But we need to have ability to control and operate these for two main reasons. One is to allow for coordination and aggregation of DERs to respond to ISO led procurements pertaining to province wide system reliability. And also to coordinate and aggregate DERs to address local reliability within the distribution network. So these are just a few of I think we have about 15 solutions, but I thought I would just target three for the audience today.
Dan Seguin 22:27
This next one is very interesting - for me. How will distributed energy resources change the relationship between utilities and customers.
Teresa Sarkesian 22:38
While many utilities are interested in optimizing DERs that reside behind the meter and may be underutilized by customer owners and operators. Currently, there is over 4000 megawatts of DERs behind the meters of utilities across Ontario. Better digitalization of utility will provide visibility of where all those resources sit on the distribution grid. With that knowledge and the ability of LDCs to be permitted to offer price signals, owners and operators of these DERs could choose to sell back some of the generation or storage to assist the utility in supporting grid reliability. And in order to dispatch the DERs utilities will need to invest in advanced control systems to achieve this level of grid sophistication. This integration of customer assets on the distribution grid will potentially create more efficiencies in the system by delaying or avoiding other generation or transmission investments. It will be a much more dynamic relationship with customers than in the past.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:37
Wow, I can't believe that 2022 is already upon us. So what are the top two issues that could impact utilities, their shareholders and the more than 5 million customers across the province?
Teresa Sarkesian 23:51
Well, that's a great question, Rebecca. So one of the issues that we see that could be important for our sector and customers will be the post pandemic economic recovery and the upcoming provincial election in Ontario. So with regard to the post pandemic economic recovery, there has been a lot of discussion about the opportunities related to electrification. So depending on how fast government would like to move, or to incent electrification in Ontario, this could be really quite challenging for LDCs to be at the ready, because as I mentioned before, we need to make sure that we have the proper capital investments, remuneration and visibility tools to make sure that we can effectively electrify Ontario's economy. And with regard to the Ontario election, depending on the election results, there is always a possibility that there may be a change in focus for the energy sector. So if there might be a shift in government, perhaps they might want to go harder or faster on net zero or electrification targets. So we'll have to wait and see what happens. I guess the election is only about seven months away now.
Dan Seguin 24:58
Okay, Teresa Now for the fun part. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Okay, first one, what is your favorite word?
Teresa Sarkesian 25:11
Compassion
Dan Seguin 25:13
What is the one thing you can't live without
Teresa Sarkesian 25:17
my sense of humor
Dan Seguin 25:18
What is something that challenges you?
Teresa Sarkesian 25:21
Working in the ever changing electricity sector is both challenging and rewarding.
Dan Seguin 25:27
Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Teresa Sarkesian 25:32
Not needing to sleep.
Dan Seguin 25:35
Okay, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?
Teresa Sarkesian 25:43
Well, that would be going back a very long time ago at this stage, Dan. But what I would say to her is be brave and take a year to travel, because you won't have the time to do it again for a very, very long time for a whole year, perhaps not until retirement.
Dan Seguin 25:58
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Teresa Sarkesian 26:05
I think it's the energy transformation journey we are all on right now. We are part of a global transformation on electrifying society. It's not just happening in Ontario. It is happening all across the world. It is so exciting to be part of global change. And I can't say I've really ever had that before in my career.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:24
Alright, Theresa, we reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you had fun.
Teresa Sarkesian 26:32
I did. Thank you so much. It was great to chat with you today.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:36
I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review.
Dan Seguin 26:44
Now For show notes and bonus content visit thinkenergypodcast.ca. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us. Thank you for listening
Unfortunately, electrical injuries are not as rare as one would hope. But the rate of electrical fatalities is actually trending down thanks to the efforts of the Electrical Safety Authority. Today’s big question: How has the Electrical Safety Authority strategically evolved its approach to safety in this modern, and increasingly electric world? Special guest, Josie Erzetic, Chief Regulatory Officer & General Counsel for the Electrical Safety Authority, is here with us today to help ground us with a greater understanding of the dangers behind electricity and how we can protect ourselves, our loved ones, and our colleagues from injury.
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Do you work in a construction related industry? Call or email (ESA.communications@esasafe.com) the ESA to learn about their spring startup sessions. They are happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:50
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. And in today's episode, we'll be talking about safety in this increasingly, electric world. I'm dancing.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:02
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz.
Dan Seguin 01:04
Electricity is everywhere. It has become a necessary part of our lives powering the way we live, work and play. Rebecca, how much of a headache is it when the power goes out?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:19
Hmm, it's a huge headache, Dan. And let me tell you, as a social media coordinator, I know firsthand that our customers feel the pain.
Dan Seguin 01:28
Yep, I'm the same way when the power goes out, we notice but apart from those moments, it's easy to take for granted. Likewise, with it being such a critical resource that already has many safeguards in place, it's easy to forget just how dangerous it is
Rebecca Schwartz 01:45
so true. And well, most of us have likely experienced an electric shock of some kind. Hopefully, for most people, just a small Static Shock, you know, from walking across your carpet with socks on and touching the closest victim in proximity to you. But I digress. static shocks like these are of little consequence. However, when it comes to the electric current running through our homes, businesses and communities via wires and powerlines incidents involving electric shock are anything but amusing.
Dan Seguin 02:15
Unfortunately, the sobering reality is that electrical injuries are not as rare as you and I or the Electrical Safety Authority would like. According to the Ontario electrical safety report, there have been a 135 electrical related fatalities in the past 10 years. 52 of those deaths were a result of electrocution, or the effects of an electrical burn, and 83 were a result of electrical fires. The silver lining is that the rate of electrical fatalities is actually trending down. fatalities have dropped 13% Compared to the previous 10 year period.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:59
And the organization behind this downwards trend is the Electrical Safety Authority. They serve to regulate and promote electrical safety in Ontario, improve safety for the well being of all Ontarians and ultimately to reduce electrical injuries and fatalities to zero.
Dan Seguin 03:16
So Rebecca, here's today's big question. How has the electrical safety authorities strategically evolved, its approach to safety in this modern and increasingly electric world? Special guest, Josie Erzetic, Chief regulatory officer and General Counsel for the Electrical Safety Authority is here with us today to help ground us with a greater understanding of the dangers behind electricity, and how we can protect ourselves, our loved ones, and our colleagues from injury. Hey Josie, Welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us more about your organization, your role as a regulator, and what fuels your passion for working there?
Josie Erzetic 04:12
Thanks so much, Daniel. I'm really happy to be on the show. So Thanks for inviting me. I guess what I'd start off with is just talking about ESA's mission, and that is to promote electrical safety across Ontario. So in fact, our vision is an Ontario where people can live work and play safe from electrical harm. So we're talking about electrical safety at home, as well as in the workplace. So how do you do that? We basically have carriage four regulations in the province. So the first one being the one people probably associate most which with us, which is the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. The second one is that we license all of the LEC's and ME's, that's master electricians and licensed electrical contractors in the province. Thirdly, we regulate electrical product safety. And finally, we regulate the safety of all licensed distribution companies in the province. And that would be, for example, Ottawa Hydro. So we regulate safety in that regard as well. And we're constantly just scanning the market for new areas that we perceive present an electrical safety risk to consumers to Ontarians. And we promote education, electrical safety education. So what what fuels my passion you asked? It's basically that safety and consumer protection mandate, I find it very, very meaningful work to do this. So that's what gets me up in the mornings. And I'm really fortunate to just work with a really, really great group of people.
Rebecca Schwartz 06:01
with safety and risk mitigation top of mind how the accidents increased or decreased in the last five to 10 years. And how do you measure this?
Josie Erzetic 06:10
it's a really good question. And I'm very happy to report that over the last 10 years, overall, the state of electrical safety in Ontario has improved. There's been a 42% reduction in critical injuries that result as a result of electrical incidents, and there's been a 30% reduction in electrical fires. Overall, as well over the past decade, there's been an 11% decrease in electrical related fatalities. When it comes to power lines, specifically, there has been an 8% decrease in the last 10 years in power line related fatalities. So how do we know this? we track all the data. So we look very carefully at electrical fatalities, as well as critical injuries. And we really sort of hone in on where they're coming from. So I'll give you an example. For example, dump truck drivers a number of years ago, we recognized that there were a lot of electrical contact with power lines as the result of dump truck drivers keeping the box on their truck in an elevated position. So as a result of that we really focused in on that problem and started to do a lot of work with that industry. So what did we do? we created a whole campaign around, look up, look out. So we posted these types of signs all around construction areas, we posted power line safety posters. We delivered safety talks to industry associations to students to construction workers. And we worked in partnership with the IHSA, which is the infrastructure Health and Safety Association. And we also translated some of our safety materials into other languages, including French, Portuguese, Punjabi, to make sure that people understood the message. And as a result of it, what's happened is that the number of powerline contacts from that industry has decreased by 28%, when you compare five year periods. So having said all that, there's still a lot of work to be done. And we're again tracking data to look at where we might see other risk areas so that we can really focus in on those.
Dan Seguin 08:53
Now let's move on from data to reports. I know you recently released an annual safety report. What is that telling you?
Josie Erzetic 09:01
So our annual safety report is called the Ontario electrical safety report or OESR. It's the only document of this kind in Canada. And what it really does is help us identify emerging risk areas. So this this last month, we released our 20th edition. And what it's telling us on the homeowner side certainly is we've seen an increase in power line contacts reported from the public. So this is not what I was referring to earlier in terms of fatalities per se, but it's just an increase in the numbers of contacts, which of course could lead to serious injury or fatality, so we want to really think about data like this and try to send our safety message to the public. So where are we seeing contact? we're seeing it in areas like tree trimming or cutting. We're seeing it in things like kite flying or home improvement. work. For example, if you think about it, you're working around your home, you're moving around a ladder, let's say, to clean your eavestroughs, anything like that. And we're potentially seeing power line contact as a result, yard renovations. So we noticed that, especially during this pandemic period, where people are doing a lot of their own renovation work, there's a potential there for power line contact. So what we've done is we're shifting a lot of our campaigns online, and we're sending out messages like stop, look and live, we find that people are going online, when they're thinking about doing renovations when they're hiring contractors to help with some of those renovations. So we want to send out those messages that make sure you're aware of powerlines, you're aware of what you're doing, and that you stay far enough away. Another example is pools and pool clearances or hot tubs. So in that sense, we've sent out messages saying make sure you keep yourself and your equipment, for example, pool skimmers, which can be quite long, far away from overhead power lines, and our recommendation is at least three meters away. So that's on the homeowner side. And if we want to switch it now to the work side, on the occupational side, I point to the fall of 2019. Were in the span of about 24 hours, we were notified tragically of two critical injuries and two deaths as a result of powerline contact. And those were four separate incidents. So one was a crane construction worker. The second one was arborists that were it was a team of two arborists that were involved in tree trimming. The third one involved a TTC worker. So that's the Toronto Transit Commission in Toronto. And, and the fourth one was a drill operator. So this was a really tragic day where you had a number of incidents just occurring in very close temporal proximity. But it was also a catalyst for us to think about redesigning our power line campaign. And so what we're doing as a result is we have campaigns twice annually so that we make sure it's at the start of construction season, as well as in the fall months. We're also working closely with the Ministry of Labor to understand all of the circumstances behind those incidents. And we also work with our industry partners to make sure that we educate workers who are at high risk, and I mentioned arborist as an example. So we want to again focus in on those occupations that we think are at high risk of powerline contact. We've also observed a rise in incidents involving young workers. And as a result, we have specialists who go to the colleges to ensure that students young workers involved in things like heavy machinery operation in the arborist industry, get the information about the potential hazard around power line contact, so to ensure that they're well educated on that. And we also encourage any companies. So anyone who is listening to this podcast, who you know works in a construction related area, if you want to give us a call about our spring startup sessions, we're happy to send somebody out to educate your workers about the potential hazards around powerline contact. And you can do this by just emailing us at ESA.communications@esasafe.com. And we'd be happy to do a spring startup session for folks.
Rebecca Schwartz 14:11
Thanks, Josie. We'll make sure to include that in our show notes. So we read that the Electrical Safety Authority is striving to be a modern risk based electrical safety regulator for Ontarians. What exactly does that mean?
Josie Erzetic 14:25
Yeah, it's a great question. And I often think about that, myself, what does it mean to be to be a modern regulator, so it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but I'll sort of give you the key elements of it for us. So it really, it means to us to use something that we call risk based oversight. It means leveraging technology and really fostering the capabilities of our people. So when we say risk based oversight, as you can imagine, trying to be a safety regulator. The complex world we live in today in a in a province, as populous as the province of Ontario is a difficult task, you can't be everywhere all at once. So we use risk base to really prioritize and focus on the highest risk electrical installations, we actually have an algorithm that helps us understand which installations are the high risk ones, and we prioritize those and have a whole system for prioritization. So we're basically putting the most time in the highest risk areas. Along those lines were also through. And we did this through the COVID period, we're really piloting the use of what we call remote inspections. So that in other words, rather than an inspector attending at each installation, there's the possibility for a licensed electrical contractor to send in photos or videos. And we put job aids around that and given instruction to the industry about what we're looking for. So again, so low risk installation, and in the inspectors discretion, they can accept photos or videos, which you can imagine, makes it more efficient for us doing our job. And it's also, you know, potentially an efficiency value to the contractor as well to submit photos rather than having somebody attend in person. So that's another thing where we're moving forward as a modern regulator, I'd say, in terms of leveraging technology, we've really moved digital, I think, as have a lot of companies at this time. So example, where we used to have all our master exams happening in person, they can now happen virtually. So we have a system where we can do virtual proctoring of exams, so you can do your exam online, we can do online training, which is either synchronous or asynchronous, which is which is terrific for folks. If it's synchronous, then you might have an instructor with you asynchronous, you're watching videos, or you're going through PowerPoint on on your own time. So it's, it's leveraging technology for us, but also for the folks that we service. And another big thing we've done is our plan review group, which looks at electrical drawings, for complex electrical installations. So say, for example, for a car manufacturer or a large industry, rather than having these clients submit hard copies of complicated electrical plans, they can now do so digitally through our electronic plan review portal. So that's something again, that's very good for clients and good for efficiency purposes. For us, we also have a new scheduling tool that provides customers better notice of when an inspector is going to arrive, which is again, a real win from a from an efficiency standpoint, and we're now launching a project that would allow master electricians and licensed electrical contractors to submit documents online, so time saving there. And the last area I'd say is focusing on fostering new skills. So where our employees need to augment skills or develop new skills, we're very supportive of continuing education and, and skills broadening. And we're also looking at where do we have gaps? Where is technology? Or is our sector evolving, and we need to ensure we're evolving with it. So an example I give you there is what we've just been talking about, which is around data analytics. So we've recognized that we need to improve our capability in that regard. And as a result, we've hired a couple of new people to help us in that regard. And we're also augmenting skills of folks that we already have working for us. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention diversity and inclusion. I think a lot of employers are thinking about that right now, as are we. And so we do have what we call an idea strategy, which is inclusion, diversity, equity and accessibility. And I think that is a very important part of being a modern regulator. And I would say that, you know, I'm really happy to report that 80% of our executive team is now women. So I think we're making some real advances in that area, but you know, I'll be honest with you, I'd like to see more so We're continuing to work on that. So I guess that's in summary, what I really see is being a modern regulator.
Dan Seguin 20:08
That's very interesting. Thanks, Josie. Now, wondering if you could tell us about your organization's new corporate strategy at a high level? Can you walk us through the four strategic goals and why they're so important?
Josie Erzetic 20:23
Yeah. So it's, it's a very good question. And some of these goals we have maintained from previous years and others we've really expanded upon. So I would say the, the first of the four main goals is really safety. And that's one that's always been a focus of our organization. But having said that, we can all see the rapid evolution of technology in the sector. So we're really maintaining a close focus on that, and working with industry partners in that regard. So examples I give you there are things like the adoption of electric vehicles or energy storage technologies. So in the example I give you is that I'm currently sitting on a council that the Ministry of Transportation has set up around Evie adoption. So we want to participate on councils like that, that look at this one is on the electrification of the transportation sector. So that's an important part important pillar in the strategy, and an important part of what we're doing. So we do things like we anticipate new risk areas, we have something called the harm lifecycle, which really has a scanning the market, looking at potential for new technology, new harms that we should be monitoring and assessing. And then we decide, is this a high risk area that we would like to pilot a program in as an example? Is this something we should be partnering on? Like the example I just gave you with what MTO is doing? Is this something that we want to continue as a program, once we have achieved our goals in it? Is it something that we exit from so we have a whole lifecycle and how we look at risk. So I think that's an important part of the new strategy around safety. And then compliance, that's also something that we have carried over from our previous strategy. But I think, if anything, I would say we're almost amping up what we're doing in this area. So we work closely with our licensed communities, for example, the licensed electrical contractor community, and we educate the public in terms of ensuring that they hire a licensed electrical contractor, rather than, for example, going to unlicensed individuals. And we refer to that as the underground economy. So I would say that this new strategy really emphasizes the importance of getting at that underground economy or, you know, I'd like to put it as like, just let's take a bite out of that underground economy, let's reduce what's going on there. So we want to educate homeowners to not hire unlicensed individuals. And we will take enforcement action, where it's required against those people who are working illegally and not taking out licenses or permits because there are real safety and consumer protection risks around that type of work. And we've got some real active campaigns around that. For example, we have a Kijiji Blitz, where we are actively looking for people advertising services illegally on Kijiji and forcing those to come off Kijiji. Our third goal is operating with organizational agility. And I think, as a lot of companies are doing today, and as we talked about earlier, we're trying to leverage technology to make ourselves more efficient, and reduce, you know, burden for the licensees. So whether those are licensed electrical contractors, or LDCs, such as Hydro Ottawa, we're trying to reduce burden for our clients. And I think the last area is really around public accountability. We want to be seen as a publicly accountable transparent regulator So we do regular surveys of our customers to identify areas for improvement. You know, what are our strengths? But what are our weaknesses? And how can we do better? I think ESA has a culture of continuous improvement, which we're very proud of.
Rebecca Schwartz 25:18
Thanks for the reference to the underground economy, it seems like there's a black market for everything, even electrical services. Has there been a story that's stuck with you in regards to an electrical incident resulting in a serious injury that could have been prevented? Or is there a safety tip that you wish everybody knew?
Josie Erzetic 25:37
Yeah. So thank you for that question. And something that is real top of mind for me lately, is something called lichtenburg generators. So we've had a number of serious injuries and some deaths involving these devices. And my safety tip is stop using these devices. They are devices that they can either be made. So people were seeing people doing them as do it yourself projects, or they can be purchased. However, they're not a product that's either approved or certified by any certification body, and they're extremely dangerous. So we're aware of at least five fatalities and one critical injury that have taken place over the last three years. And a couple of those fatalities occurred earlier this year. And what these things are, I don't know if you've ever heard of them before, but they are used to create art. So they're like a wood burning type device. So you create it by burning designs into wood or acrylic. But they're a lot of them are homemade. And people take parts out of microwaves, for example, to put these things together. And they have a lot of accessible wiring components. So they're very unsafe to handle. And so and particularly on social media forums, we're seeing that individuals are posting videos, and they're instructing each other on how to build these devices. So right now we have a very comprehensive public safety awareness campaign to educate the public about the dangers of using Lichtenberg generators. And we're specifically targeting that sort of do it yourself, community and those who are interested in things like woodworking so what we're finding it's primarily men aged between 20 and 40, to not carry out this type of hobby and not use these types of devices. And if anyone is aware of advertising of this kind of advice, we would encourage them to call us at 1-877-esa-safe or visit us online. And and make us aware of this because we are asking, particularly YouTube to try to get these How To Videos removed. So the safety tip again, is don't use these devices. They're very dangerous.
Dan Seguin 28:20
Now your organization has a vision, a big vision to create an Ontario where people can live, work and play safe from electrical harm. During the pandemic, have there been any particular challenges or opportunities in achieving this?
Josie Erzetic 28:37
Yeah, it absolutely, because as I'm sure you both have found, people were at home. That means, among other things, a lot of on at home online shopping. So we want to make sure that people are very aware that electrical products that you're looking at, make sure they've been approved by a recognized certification body. So from both a safety awareness point of view, but also a consumer protection point of view, we want to make sure that people are buying approved products, as you both know. Online, it's so it's a global problem. You can buy products from anywhere in the world now and have them shipped directly to your house. So again, as a regulator, it's hard to be everywhere all at once. So the best thing is to have consumers aware themselves that when you're buying electrical products, you will want to ensure that it's either CSA certified UL certified, that you've got an approval mark on that product and you look for it when you're buying it on these online platforms. We share jurisdiction here with Health Canada, so I know Health Canada is all so concerned about this problem. So what we've done is we've set up a task force and we include ourselves on it, Health Canada, our own ministry, provincially, which is the ministry of government and Consumer Services. We've got manufacturers working with us distributors, consumer advocates, we've got bricks and mortar stores as part of the task force. But we also have online retailers. And we're all discussing the problem of consumer awareness, consumer protection and safety, because it's an all our interest to make sure people are safe. And we're putting resources into follow up on any reports we see, or we receive about unsafe consumer products. So we have been and we will follow up on 100% of reports we receive where somebody says, Look, I bought this thing it's unapproved, you know, I found that it sparked or there was a flash, when I tried to plug it in, we will follow up on all these things. We're also really enhancing consumer consumer awareness efforts, especially around this time of year, we're heading into holiday shopping season. And so we do have a holiday safety campaign. That's where we see a lot of people online, a lot of people looking at electrical products. So this campaign really focuses on consumer safety. And this year, in particular, we're encouraging folks who, you know, may be doing a lot of holiday decorating, they may be getting together to do this type of thing. So they're putting more emphasis on it this year, I don't know maybe more so than last year, when nobody came over. We're saying, you know, look closely at your your lights, right, your holiday lights that you're buying, make sure they're approved, make sure you use them correctly. Make sure if you have old ones that you're digging out of your basement, that there's no damage to cords, so just you know, be careful.
Rebecca Schwartz 32:04
Josie, you mentioned amateur DIY is like the dangerous Lichtenberg wood burning video on YouTube. Has there been other instances where the Electrical Safety Authority has seen an increase in electrical accidents? Or what about new areas of concern?
Josie Erzetic 32:20
Yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a good question. And again, particularly through this pandemic period, where people are looking for new hobbies, or, you know, they're at home, they're thinking about ways to renovate their house, maybe they cannot find a contractor or someone says to them, okay, it'll be months and months before somebody can get your house. So they just, they feel like, Oh, well, I could I want to do it myself. Right. So in that sense, we really remind homeowners consumers, that electricity is something that is dangerous, that you need to hire a professional to do it, there is the potential homeowners can do their own work. But in our view, it is better to hire a professional because there are safety risks inherent in the work. If homeowners are doing it themselves, then we certainly would remind them that they must take out the proper notifications with ESA, because that then has an inspector coming to their house to inspect the work. So at the very least, you want to ensure that happens. But we would say primarily, look, leave it to the professionals. So hire a licensed electrical contractor. And only a licensed electrical contracting business can be hired to do this. So when you're hiring people, we also remind folks to ask to see the accurate slash ESA license number. So that should be ever it should be on the estimates you get. It should be on their their trucks, their business cards, their ultimate invoice if you're not seeing that you could be hiring somebody that's in that underground economy that we talked about earlier. So be very careful about who you're hiring. And in this regard, obviously, ESA puts out a lot of its own information. But we also now are partnering with the Mike Holmes group. And you'll probably remember Mike Holmes He's done a lot of work on television. He does a lot of work also through social media. So he has a very large following. And so as a result, we're able to amplify the message by working with that group with Mike Holmes and his family to really get out that message that this is something maybe you don't want to take on on your own because of the safety risks. So certainly, both Mike his son, Mike Jr, and Sherry have posted both on YouTube as well as their other social channels about the importance when you're thinking about renovating to hire a licensed electrical contractor, and also the importance of ensuring you ensuring that you have ESA inspect the work. So you want to make sure at the end of the job, you get an ESA certificate of acceptance when the job's complete. So you know, it's done right. The other thing we've been noticing recently, and we've really made an effort to get the word out on this, so maybe I'll mention it here on this podcast as well, is the difference between a licensed electrical contractor, a master electrician, or what we call a C of Q, Certificate of Qualification holder, a certified electrician. Sometimes people think, oh, this person is an electrician, I'll just hire them directly know, who you need to hire is a licensed electrical contractor, because they are a business. And they were required by us to have $2 million in liability insurance, as well as the WSIB insurance coverage. So how this works is the licensed electrical contractor employs Master electricians who are responsible for overseeing the work of certified electricians, so you don't hire those folks directly. You hire the LEC, and it's important for consumer protection, because that way, if there's an injury, God forbid, or something happens in your home, then there is insurance that covers that. And the homeowner, him or herself is not responsible. So we're really working to increase awareness on the differences between the licensed electrical contracting businesses, which are who you hire, versus the master electricians or the certified electricians. I think that's very important.
Rebecca Schwartz 37:17
Great tips Josie and gotta love Mike Holmes, perhaps now a little bit more broadly, pandemic times or not what are some of the biggest challenges and opportunities that are facing the Electrical Safety Authority right now in general?
Josie Erzetic 37:32
I think I I go back to the underground economy and underground work that we we talked about earlier. So and I think we mentioned that it's just it's such a big problem, not just for our sector. But overall, I think, Rebecca, that you mentioned that you can, you know, almost buy anything in the underground market now. So you really, I think Statistics Canada estimates the underground economy is over $16 billion. That's with a B in Ontario alone. So it's just it's a big problem. And we as I said, I'd like to start a new slogan, like, let's take a bite out of the underground economy, like we really need to ensure with something like electricity, there are such safety and consumer protection issues, that this is not something you want to fool around with and leave to someone who's non licensed and not take out proper permits in this area. There's just too much at risk both with your personal safety and the safety of your home. There could be a fire that results from this. So what are we doing to really tackle this i and Daniel, I think you mentioned it earlier too. It's the Kijiji work so we're actually working a lot of people go online to find contractors. We are online and looking at those ads on Kijiji, and we will send notification to advertisers who we think are unlicensed businesses offering these types of services. If we don't get a voluntary response to take down that ad, Kijiji will forcibly remove it so big shout out to Kijiji for working with us and taking those ads down. And and if we still get repeat offenders, you wouldn't believe this people will come back and advertise again. We're prosecuting them. So we now have 20 charges pending before courts. So I would say that number one consumers do not hire unlicensed people. Be careful about who you're hiring online. We're out there we're working on it, but be careful as to see those licenses people who are doing this work illegally. I would say we are working hard to pull your ads off. Do not do this come into the licensed community. If you want to do this work, then get a license and do it properly. or we will also be looking to prosecute. So we this is important. The other thing we noticed with a high level of EV adoption, we undertook an EV charger Blitz. So we noticed that some EV charging systems that you put in your home in order to charge your vehicle were being done by unlicensed individuals and being done without permits. So we had our inspectors go out and inspect and alert both homeowners because sometimes homeowners don't know that was put in improperly and alert us to where we saw, charters being put in without permits are being put in by unlicensed contractors. And as a result, we've noticed this the period that we were looking at it this year, compared to last year, we've had almost a doubling of the amount of notifications that were taken out. So it makes a big difference when people know that we're out there. We're inspecting these things, and we expect them to be done properly and safety. And we also have an anonymous online reporting tool. So I would even say to your listeners, if you think there could be unlicensed activity going on somewhere, please let us know about it. So you can go online, you will, it's anonymous, but we do appreciate details. So we can do the follow up and investigate, you go to esasafe.com. And we found that this has been a very effective tool since we launched it in April 2020. To get reports, and I will tell people that we do follow up on 100% of the leads we get about unlicensed activity.
Dan Seguin 41:47
Okay, we've covered challenges and opportunities. What about the rise of digital communication? Has it changed your organization's ability to communicate safety messaging?
Josie Erzetic 41:59
Yeah, I'd say it, it really, really has. And we've shifted a lot of our educational campaigns on to social media, because as we alluded to earlier, we do find that is where people are looking, for example, to hire contractors, they're looking for ideas, say on renovation, you know, people will follow certain interior designers, they they will follow renovators on things like Instagram, or they'll follow them on Twitter. So we're leveraging platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Google, YouTube, all of those, because we find that that's where people are going now. But we also find there are potential dangers lurking there as well. And so we really have to monitor and be on top of those. So I'll give you an example of something that was a tic toc challenge that that we were made aware of in early 2020. And this was a challenge where that was issued over tick tock and it was basically about plugging in a phone charger. And then using either was a penny or a nickel or something to drag across the exposed prongs. And it results in in smoke and sparks and but it can also result in fire. So it this is obviously a really dangerous activity. So we became aware of it on social media. And then we use social as well as traditional media in order to educate, you know, basically parents and kids who were doing this, that this was unsafe, and they shouldn't be doing it. And we that was a very successful campaign. And we had more than 15 million views on that. And so we're very, very grateful. And, and we actually we won some awards for what we were able to do with with social media just in terms of identifying a risk and then educating people that they shouldn't be carrying engaging in this activity. And and I guess I should say to that we're also we're leveraging some new new opportunities, like a podcast like what you guys are doing here, which I applaud you for, by the way, we're trying to do the same thing.
Rebecca Schwartz 44:21
Now Josie, our listeners have made it this far. And now they want to know some ways that they can keep their electrical safety knowledge up to date. How can they do that?
Josie Erzetic 44:30
Yeah. So one way to do it is exactly what the two of you are doing with your podcast. We have our own podcast and it's really focused on electrical safety. So it's called Grounded in Ontario, and you can find it on our website at ESAsafe.com/podcast, but you can also go to typical platforms where you'd find podcasts like Apple podcasts or Spotify and located there. So we have new episodes coming out basically monthly. And we talk about things like what we've talked about here and more. So we've had an episode on pools and hot tubs and safety issues relating to that those EV supply equipment. So electrical vehicle chargers, which we also alluded to here, we also talk about arc fault and ground fault circuit interrupters. And we have a new episode that's just coming out on the underground economy, which we've also talked about. So that's a great place to get information. Also, our website has a lot of information and talks about things like do it yourself, renovations, talks about holiday safety talks about home and work safety. So I would, you know, recommend listeners go there. And I'd also always encourage people that if there are safety concerns, or you want to report activity, please go to our website, or please call us and I can give you the number, it's 1-877-372-7233. So we'd love to hear from people.
Dan Seguin 46:12
Okay, as it relates to your podcast Grounded in Ontario, I'll make sure that we post a link in our show notes, well Josie How about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready?
Josie Erzetic 46:26
I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 46:27
Okay. What is your favorite word?
Josie Erzetic 46:30
I have to say I, I you know, obviously top of mind for me. workwise is safety. But just one of my favorite things to think about is also chocolate.
Dan Seguin 46:40
Now, what is one thing you can't live without?
Josie Erzetic 46:45
Chocolate?
Dan Seguin 46:45
What is something that challenges you
Josie Erzetic 46:48
with Rebecca, my love of chocolate? Because then I have to make sure that I you know, keep exercising or something?
Dan Seguin 46:55
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Josie Erzetic 47:00
I think the superpower question is always a really is a really great one. And I always I like picking flying for this one. Because then I figure it makes the commuting easier. And it would just be would it be great to just zip to your cottage fast or you know, zip to Europe or something. Especially these times where you know, travel is so difficult.
Dan Seguin 47:22
Josie This is my favorite one here. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self. What would you tell her?
Josie Erzetic 47:29
Okay, this one, this one I am going to answer very seriously, I would say something that I say to my my kids now who are 19 and 16. And that is believe in yourself. Believe in yourself believe in what you can do. You know, trust, trust yourself. So that that I think is very important for young people to remember.
Dan Seguin 47:53
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in this sector?
Josie Erzetic 47:59
Um, so I would say it's it's the pace of change. I just think our sector the energy sector is just fascinating. Right now we've talked about things like electrification of transportation, and the speed of the adoption there. We think of things like energy storage, the growth of renewables, I think of distribute, you know, distributed energy resources. I think it's fascinating. We're all concerned about climate change. So we're thinking about how we can reduce our carbon footprint, what, what role does energy play in that? What What will it look like 2030 4050 years from now where we might have entire communities that are doing things like net metering, we might have, you know, renewable generation, within a smaller community, or just you'll have solar panels on your roof, you'll have an energy storage system in your basement, you'll have an Eevee charging outside. So I think that is fascinating. I think energy is so fundamental to how we live and maybe how we'll deal with fundamental global issues like the climate crisis. And so ESA is part of that. I think it's so exciting, because you need to have all of that working safely. So the role we play is fascinating. So that's what I just find hugely fascinating and challenging about our sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 49:25
Well, Josie, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thanks so much for joining Dan and I today. We hope you had fun.
Josie Erzetic 49:33
I had a great time with you guys. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
Rebecca Schwartz 49:38
I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review.
Dan Seguin 49:46
Now For show notes and bonus content visit hydroottawa.com/thinkenergy. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us. Thank you for listening
New considerations for innovating how electricity is generated, distributed, and stored are being made every day. This includes the development and implementation of distributed energy resources - a promising solution for increasing the integration of clean energy. How will distributed energy resources help us reach our climate change targets, and what changes will be needed in order for the grid to support them? Vice President of the Alectra Green Energy & Technology Centre, Neetika Sathe, is here with us today to give us the scoop.
Related Content & Links:
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:51
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast and today we'll explore and unpack distributed energy. I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:00
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. You know, Dan, I've been thinking a lot about climate change.
Dan Seguin 01:04
Oh, boy, here comes another millennial rant.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:07
No, no, no, don't worry, I'm actually feeling grateful. Because when it comes to innovating, how we live and operate in order to stop and reverse climate change. Of course, Canada's goal is pretty ambitious and admirable. Canada's plans to be a netzero nation by 2050. I think it's pretty cool.
Dan Seguin 01:23
Absolutely very cool. And the City of Ottawa has also announced plans to be a zero emission city by 2050.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:31
To be honest, it feels like that's a lifetime away, since it's quite literally as many years away as I've been alive. But it's incredible news and evidence that our governments are committed to a decarbonized future.
Dan Seguin 01:42
and utilities! They're also gearing up at the front lines to align with these goals, especially in the electricity sector. New considerations for innovating how electricity is generated, distributed, and store are being made every day. This includes the development and implementation of distributed energy resources, a promising solution for increasing the integration of clean energy. Unlike the typical electricity journey, where it's supplied to customers from a centralized source, distributed energy resources are a means for customers to store their own generated electricity, which they can then choose to redirect the access back into the grid. Because this concept is quite different from how the grid was originally designed, a great deal of innovation and testing is required to ensure its continued reliability and safety.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:42
The people behind the Alectra green energy and technology center strongly believe in building a clean energy future and embracing new technologies. Now putting this belief into action, they have been leading the way for the development of emerging clean and customer friendly energy solutions, like distributed energy resources across their 1800 square kilometer service territory that serves approximately 1 million homes and businesses within 17 communities like Mississauga, St. Catharines and Hamilton.
Dan Seguin 03:11
So, Rebecca, here's today's big question: How will distributed energy resources help us reach our climate change targets, and what changes will be needed in order for the grid to support them? Vice President of Alectra green energy and technology center, the Neetika Sathe is here with us today to give us the scoop. Hey Neetika, welcome to the think energy podcast. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us a bit more about your role with electric Green Energy Technology Center.
Neetika Sathe 03:50
Hey, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me I can't tell you how excited I am to be here and for the opportunity to share my perspective and and the journey within the GRE&T Center. So for those of you who don't know, electric is the second largest municipally owned utility in all of North America, we serve over a million customers in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. within Alectra we launched the green energy and technology center in 2019 with a mandate to identify, evaluate and develop and accelerate emerging clean and customer friendly energy solutions. So think of us as the ground floor for innovation within Alectra, where clean energy ideas come to life.
Rebecca Schwartz 04:39
Thanks, Neetika. Now can you tell our listeners a bit about distributed energy resources, such as how they work and also provide a couple examples?
Neetika Sathe 04:48
Sure. So distributed energy resources, which we fondly call DERs are usually referred to smaller, clean generation units that are usually located within the customer's premises, the customer could be residential, or commercial or institutional. But typically those distributed energy resources are on the customer side on the other side of the meter, and interconnected with the grid. So to give you some examples, could be rooftop solar panels, wind generating units, wind turbines, battery storage, could be your lithium ion battery storage, smart heat pumps and even electric vehicles, basically, essentially any device that can be integrated and connected to the local distribution, system or grid that is within the proximity of the customer, and possibly owned, possibly operated by the customer.
Dan Seguin 05:58
Could you tell our listeners what makes distributed energy resources an attractive option? As we strive towards our net zero goals? Are they enough to help us get there.
Neetika Sathe 06:10
So netzero goals are rather lofty and extremely aspirational. So now the whole world is looking around trying to find those low hanging fruits that can get us to our netzero goals. The beauty of DERs is that they are largely clean, dispatchable, scalable, easy to integrate into the grid provided, we work on it upfront, if we catch the DERs. As an aftereffect, it's going to cause a lot of issues for the grid. So we have a generational opportunity to ensure that the ER is integrated properly into the grid. Because these are clean and sustainable, they hold a great promise in helping us reduce GHG emissions. And that would contribute towards net zero goals. So rather than talk at high level, let's take an example, solar panels on the roof to help meet the needs of a home, the same home could have a battery storage unit and electric vehicles. And going further, when when both is distributed energy resources are used to feed the local grid. So when there is a time of high GHG Emission emissions from the grid, we could switch over to these local DERs, we could ask the customers for their support to switch over to these clean local DERs and not need to switch on or power on the natural gas or any other fossil fuel large generation. And as a result, by the use of these DERs, we could eliminate GHG emissions from the energy systems.
Rebecca Schwartz 07:57
So what does having distributed energy resources look like from the customer's perspective? Do they necessitate any lifestyle changes? And what are some of the benefits.
Neetika Sathe 08:08
So traditionally, our customers have had a passive engagement. Typically, as customers, even when we go home, we flip the switch and we don't think about it what all is happening in the background to get those electrons into our home, to give us light or to power the TV or any other appliances. But as we are moving more towards a decentralized grid, as the technology options are coming up, as energy solutions are coming up with the DERs, the customer expectations are also changing. So they're literally being able to put the customer in the driver's seat, no pun intended as they drive electric. So they can now make the choice of when they want to use their own distributed energy resources. And when they want to purchase from the grid. So think of it as the customer becoming from a passive customer to a prosumer. Whereby they can be a producer of energy or a consumer of energy. And the choice is theirs. They make the call. So it's and the DERs of the customers could have they could have smart appliances, electric vehicle storage, solar roof or ground roof solar and and really being able to integrate all of this now does it mean any lifestyle change for the customer? I guess the trick is that all of this needs to be technology enabled. So think of it as a very high tech, yet high touch. In other words, the technology needs to do what the customers want. So the customer needs to continue having the lifestyle that they choose their choice. But the difference now is there is technology set in forget technology that enables them to have more choice than just the traditional electricity grid. So this is in stark contrast of the past, our electricity generation over centuries has been better customer has strictly been a passive receiver of energy,
Dan Seguin 10:25
Alectra's green energy and technology center has a number of pilot projects, such as this is a mouthful, folks, the York Region Non-wires, alternative demonstration project, and the powerhouse hybrid project. Can you tell us about the main intent behind these projects, and what your findings have been so far?
Neetika Sathe 10:49
So at the GRE&T Center, we always want to innovate with intention. And the intention behind the pilots is always look for Win Win Win solution, we're never satisfied with one win, it needs to be the first win has got to be for the customer. It's got to work for the customer, customer friendly, meaningful, purposeful, relevant, otherwise, it's not going to stick it'll just be a science experiment. The second win has to be for the grid, especially when you're talking with respect to DERs, the proliferation of the DERs, there needs to be a thoughtful and planned integration into the grid. And only then can you get a huge benefit out of the DERs for the customer and the grid. The third win is for all of society, and we're at times where climate change is no longer an 'if', and we're all looking for solutions that that we can that can make a difference within our generation, otherwise, the future generations won't have a planet to depend on. So our intention with all of the GRE&T center pilots, whether it's the IESO non buyers, alternative pilot, or the powerhouse of powerhouse hybrid grid exchange be working on multiple platforms and and solutions. It's got to be it's got to be a win across board.
Rebecca Schwartz 12:31
Okay. Now, can you tell us how projects like these are influencing and innovating the grid?
Neetika Sathe 12:37
The conversation is focused on the need for reform, transformation and regulatory change. But until you don't roll up your sleeves and actually work on it, you got to be able to get into the trenches. It's really difficult to forecast what all roadblocks and hot points you're going to gather along the way. So the whole idea is that when we're talking about the need for policy change, the need for regulatory change that we bring real time experience from our pilots into our discussion so that those discussions can be grounded in reality, otherwise, there is a lot of vaporware in the industry right now.
Dan Seguin 13:21
What are some of the biggest modernizations you foresee being made to the grid by 2050? How is digitisation influencing these processes?
Neetika Sathe 13:33
So the grid is going to get much smarter, wiser, more intelligent, and more connected. If anything, or industry is a little bit late to the party, and we've and we have the good fortune, or the luxury of learning from other industries where this disruption has already happened. Be in the taxi industry, the banking industry, retail industry, hotel industry, they're all being transformed by digitalization. And they're all banking on one basic fundamental shift in demographics - the openness for sharing economy. So whether it's an Airbnb or you look at Uber, you have democratization of their solutions, whereby a common citizen is willing to share their assets, or their comfort or their lifestyle, as long as they're getting rewarded and incentivized in a way that works for them. So in other words, you've got a car that's sitting around, you're only driving around 4% utilization of that asset, but then you've got a little extra time. You don't mind becoming an Uber driver. And you're you're gregarious, you like hanging around people. So it works for you and you make some money. Think of those kinds of concepts now coming into our energy world, whereby that's where, that's how the birth of the concept of transactive energy takes place, whereby I talked earlier about the customer becoming a prosumer. But now those prosumers with their own distributed energy resources, should be able to play in an energy market and give some and get some. So you may be able to give some of your comfort or your or your battery storage, because the grid needs it, but then the LDC may reward you back with some dollars or some loyalty points. In fact, we are teasing this very concept out with our grid exchange transactive energy platform,
Rebecca Schwartz 15:53
Supposing everyone suddenly started putting their hands up to have distributed energy resources, would it even be possible? What are the challenges that we'll need to overcome to start seeing their mainstream adoption all across Canada?
Neetika Sathe 16:07
So the answer to this question is very similar to a Facebook status update, it's complicated. The devil truly is in the details at the distribution feeder, or transformer level, or even at a green transformer at a street level, it is impossible to generalize across Ontario or across Canada. So it really depends on the state of the grid infrastructure. If the grid infrastructure has room, it's easy to add the DERs. But if the infrastructure is already at its limit, be a thermal limit, voltage, capacity, then you're going to run out of you're going to need to think out of the box solution. So I'll give you an example. On your street, if you've got, let's say 12 homes, if one of those neighbors buys electric and starts driving electric starts charging the car, when they come home at five o'clock, no big deal, your green transformer on your street will be able to take that additional 10-12 Whatever that kilo kilowatt load turns out to be. Now, but out of 12 of those homes, let's say five electric vehicles come along. Now that green transformer at five o'clock is going to go toast, it will burn down because we would have taken it beyond its capacity limits. So how do you ensure that you can add these DERs on the existing grid keep in mind the existing grid was never designed for this kind of additional load, right. But there is a need whether it is because of democratization or decentralization, people want those energy choices, then as the utilities, it's our job to ensure that we are able to onboard these distributed energy resources. And the way to do it is start thinking outside the box. For example, perhaps we stagger, we work closely with the customer, we engage the customer, we take their permission, so the customer needs to remain in the driver's seat, we take their permission, maybe some customers say I really don't care if I start charging at five o'clock, or you want to start charging me at nine o'clock, as long as my car is fully charged for my trip tomorrow morning to work. Yet some other customer may say my wife's expecting and I may need to rush to the hospital, so I want to override and I want my car charged right now no matter what the consequences are. So the beauty with DERs is the fragmented. Think of them, like these hundreds of 1000s of minions out there that you could literally you could you know, like you could run a virtual power plant, if you were only able to talk to all of them, If only you were able to monitor control and engage with the customer one on one with these. And that's where the power comes from. It's really the power of shared economy and put intelligence on top of it to be able to really engage on a two way conversation with the customer and harness the value from these DERs. So hence the need from a smart grid so that these DERs don't exert demand all at the same time. So you can stagger them, you can queue them up, you can toggle them, you can throttle them. There are so many different options. intelligent ways to work around the problem rather than just go to the basic let's just upgrade all the infrastructure which will be tremendously expensive.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:10
Do you perceive maintenance becoming an issue as the system becomes more decentralized?
Neetika Sathe 20:16
So there are there are pros and cons to decentralization. Definitely grid modernization will require some infrastructure cost and some maintenance cost - it's going to be a new regime, different from your traditional way of running the grid. And keep in mind right now our systems rest at night. And the peak usually happens within Ontario. It happens during summer, during sunny days, because our peak is mainly coming from air conditioning loads. However, if we go into deep decarbonisation, and we want to run in heating on electricity, we are quickly going to turn from a summer day peaking province to a winter night peaking province. So that's going to look very different. And I don't have the answer, what the repercussion will be on on the system maintenance, but it is going to be a very different kind of a grid to operate.
Dan Seguin 21:22
I'm wondering if you could expand on some of the features that make the home or business a better candidate for distributed energy resources? What are some of the determining factors.
Neetika Sathe 21:34
So it all depends on the needs of the individual home or business. So in some cases, it's very simple. If you want to put solar panels on your roof, you probably if you have a 15 year old roof, or 20 year old roof, you probably want to change your roof before you put the panels up. And if you've got a large tree that is shading your roof and you don't want to cut that trim that tree down your roof is probably not the optimum optimal place to put that solar. So it's some of it is very intuitive. When it comes to electric vehicles, for example, it really depends on how you what your driving patterns are. 60% of Canadian drivers are driving less than 60 kilometers a day. But law of averages does not work when you're looking at a specific person's needs. So if you are traveling across cities every day, you've got you're putting a lot of clicks on your car, and you only have one car within the family. Probably the current EVs are not a good fit for you. But having said that, models are coming up where the batteries battery sizes are increasing. And the infrastructure for charging on the road on route is also increasing. But if you are a household of two cars, and you you're you drive 50-60 to 100-150 kilometers a day, you actually are a fantastic candidate to drive electric and enjoy the benefits of a cleaner drive and a much more fun to drive experience. So it really depends on the specific DER and how it matches up with your lifestyle.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:22
Alright, so how might someone who was interested in adopting distributed energy resources for their homes or business get the ball rolling?
Neetika Sathe 23:30
Do your research. Learn whichever best way you learn for me I love hanging around people I learned best by talking to people. If you if you're looking for EVs talk to someone who's driving an EV if you learn better by you know going for test drives and going for demonstrations like go to, for example plug and drive has an experiential center in Toronto or go to any of the dealers and ask for a test drive. There are so many websites including Aletra we have a website where we put a ton of resources on EVs. Alectra.com/e-mobility, so there's a lot of information out there. You do you Whatever floats your boat, but do your research and start whetting your appetite to figure out how what kind of DERS will fit your lifestyle.
Dan Seguin 24:25
Hey Nitika we're just about done. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? What is your favorite word?
Neetika Sathe 24:35
It's got to be collaborate.
Dan Seguin 24:38
What is the one thing you can't live without
Neetika Sathe 24:42
Probably oxygen.
Dan Seguin 24:43
What is something that challenges you?
Neetika Sathe 24:47
purposeful innovation - how to innovate with intention
Dan Seguin 24:51
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Neetika Sathe 24:54
The ability to travel across time.
Dan Seguin 24:57
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old What would you tell her?
Neetika Sathe 25:01
I would say don't over analyze. It's, it's not the destination that's important. The journey is important, not the destination. And the most important thing is the people that you meet and go along at on the journey.
Dan Seguin 25:19
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector,
Neetika Sathe 25:24
I came into the utility sector because I sniffed a generational opportunity. I was, I was at Nissan, launching the Nissan LEAF, the first all electric 100% electric car from Nissan. And that's when my eyes opened up to this huge possibility of, of the automotive sector making a difference actual make actually making a difference in, in our sustainability. And really, it's the it's the power of discovering the possibilities. I know it's, it's a cliched line, this is Alectra's slugline, but I so totally believe in it, collaborating and discovering the possibilities, we actually have a generational opportunity to make a difference. And for once our electricity sector, for the most part in Canada, at least definitely in Ontario. And as you mentioned in Quebec, we are the part of the solution. We are not the problem, we bring the solution. So that's what really really excites me about our sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:33
Well latika, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. We hope you had fun. I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. If so please head over to our iTunes SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review.
Dan Seguin 26:51
Now For show notes and bonus content visit ThinkEnergy.com. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:59
Thank you for listening
The Government of Canada has mandated that 100 per cent of car and passenger truck sales be zero-emission by 2035. All kinds of measures will be required to support this transportation evolution. Are Canadians ready to embrace this relatively quick transition over to EVs? What are all the barriers? And, do Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in the EV evolution? Cara Clairman, President and CEO at Plug'nDrive (and a prominent leader in the EV space) joins us to share her unique perspective.
Related Content & Links:
Find your EV match (total cost of ownership tool): https://ev.plugndrive.ca/
Book a test drive with Plug'n Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/electric-vehicle-discovery-centre/
Used EV rebate program: https://www.plugndrive.ca/used-electric-vehicles/
ZEVIP (NRCan funding program for infrastructure): https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/transportation-alternative-fuels/zero-emission-vehicle-infrastructure-program/21876
Federal EV incentive program: https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-technologies/zero-emission-vehicles
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:04
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 00:07
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And on today's episode, we'll tackle EV-olution of transportation. I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:02
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Hey, Dan, you have an electric vehicle, right?
Dan Seguin 01:06
I sure do.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:07
I'm curious. What's your experience been? Like? Would you recommend an EV for your one and only favorite co host?
Dan Seguin 01:13
Huh? Haha. I would 100% recommend one. I love my little EV. I've actually owned two. And now my wife has just ordered her very own. I have no regrets.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:28
That's good to know. Now, if I could just get a solid pay raise, I'll be able to afford one. Hint hint nudge nudge.
Dan Seguin 01:35
Hmm. I have some great news about that, Rebecca. First. Both the feds and some provinces have great incentive programs. With these rebates, EVs are really much more affordable. In fact, as part of Canada's goal to help fight climate change, there are plans to make owning these zero emission vehicle more accessible than ever before, through addressing affordability and adequate infrastructure. Today's guest will have lots more to say about that.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:09
Whoo visions of having my very own EV are getting a little bit more clear. You have my attention go on.
Dan Seguin 02:15
In fact, the pressures on the Government of Canada has mandated 100% of car and passenger truck sales be zero emission by 2035. All kinds of measures will be required to support this transportation evolution. Everything from incentives for zero emission vehicles, to investments in infrastructure to partnerships with auto manufacturers are being pursued.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:40
Wow, that seems so soon. But that's exciting. There are so many more things I'd like to know and ask. So here's today's big questions. Are Canadians ready to embrace this relatively quick transition over to EV's? What are the barriers and do Canadian businesses and municipalities have a role to play in the EV evolution?
Dan Seguin 03:00
Joining us today we have Cara Clairman, CEO and President at Plug'n Drive, and a prominent leader in the EV space. She's here today to provide us with all of the answers. Cara, welcome to the show. Maybe you could start by telling us a bit about your organization and its mandate.
Cara Clairman 03:26
thanks so much, Dan, for for inviting me to do this. Plugn' Drive is a not for profit. So we're out there trying to educate consumers on the environmental and economic benefits of switching to an electric car. And so most of our work revolves revolves around that outreach and education to help people make the switch.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:46
The Government of Canada has set what some might call an aggressive mandate for 100% of new light duty vehicle sales to be zero emissions by 2035. Why has Canada set this mandate? And how does it play into the larger picture of net zero by 2050.
Cara Clairman 04:01
So I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know that. Transportation is actually one of the largest emitting sectors not just here in Canada, but pretty much everywhere around the world. And in fact, in many provinces of Canada, transportation is the number one largest emitter larger than industry larger than buildings. And so we really can't achieve our climate goals if we don't tackle transportation. So of course, tackling transportation is a few a few different things, not just EV but EV is a ready technology that's here that would really really help in terms of reducing emissions from consumer vehicles, as well as now some medium and even heavy duty. And this opportunity is huge because if you just take Ontario for example. You know, our number one emission source is transportation and our electricity grid is already extremely clean. We're about 95% emission reduction if we switch to EVs, because our electricity grid here is already about 90 plus percent free of greenhouse gas emissions. And that's true in many provinces of Canada. So if you look at our electricity grid across the country, you have, you know, a number of provinces that are hydro only. So it's, you know, BC, Quebec, Manitoba. And so if you look across the country, we're already about 80% GHG free pretty much. And so it's just such a perfect match with the with improving the emissions from transportation. Across Canada, we have an extremely clean energy grid. And if you think about our electricity here in Ontario, it's mostly nuclear and hydro, a little bit of solar and wind, a very small amount of natural gas. So we're already about only 5%, five to 8% fossil fuel on the grid. So plugging into our cars into that grid offers a huge emission reduction at about 90 to 95%. So as a long way of saying, you know, requiring new EV sales is a relatively easy way for the government to start making the transition for the transportation personal vehicle fleet, and would allow Canada actually to achieve the net zero by 2050, which it really can't do if it doesn't tackle transportation.
Dan Seguin 06:34
Now, Cara, are you able to expand on how Canada's zero emission vehicle mandates compare globally? Are we on par with other countries?
Cara Clairman 06:44
Well, I'll answer that question sort of in two parts. How we are now compared to the globe and other countries and how we will be right now I'd say we're a bit behind. Because we don't have an aggressive enough, set of EV policies, and we have quite a patchwork across the country in terms of provincial policies. And so our adoption rates are actually on the low side relative to a lot of other countries, I'd say we stand around 10th right now, you know, in comparison to other countries that have, you know, better policies than we have. However, the policy of zero emission new sales, right, that's just new sales, we'll still have gas cars around for quite a while. zero emission, new sales by 2035 is, is quite progressive. And I would say it's not the most aggressive policy, there are a few countries ahead of us, like Norway has, you know, a mandate for 2025. And there are a number of European countries that have set 2030. But 2035 is definitely in the pack, I would say in terms of leadership in the top, you know, 10 or 15 countries. What we really need to do though, is make this a law, you know, right now, we just have a sort of a vague commitment to it. And until it's legislated, it really doesn't have a lot of meaning.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:16
What are some of the main barriers to zero emission vehicle adoption?
Cara Clairman 08:20
Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago. And I think the results probably would hold true today as well, asking people about about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle. And actually, the number one barrier was price, which surprised us we expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EV's were too expensive. And so we know that the upfront sticker price is is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So I would say you know cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called find your EV match, which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for for electric vehicles income and you can even compare an Eevee to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so this is a really, really important point. I would also say of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure. And there still is some range hesitancy concern. But I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves,
Dan Seguin 10:14
okay, Cara - How is your organization working to build consumer awareness and education to help remove consumer concerns around EVs?
Cara Clairman 10:24
Well, I mean, Dan, this is what we're doing every single day. You know, we've built our whole program around helping the consumer get over their concerns. And so we're quite accustomed to every single concern and question people have. And basically we do it in a couple of ways. We have our EV Discovery Center in Toronto, which is, you know, a bricks and mortar facility, people can come learn all about EVs, no pressure to buy anything, and test drive the latest make some models. And we have found through our research that the test drive is key to helping people get over their concerns. And that's been a bit of a challenge during COVID, although we are back to doing test drive. And then secondly, we have our mobile EV Discovery Center or our MEET, which we take two smaller cities and towns all over to sort of bring the EV Discovery Center concept to them. And so that's a great opportunity for people to learn again, and a no pressure environment is fun. And then we have our roadshow, which you know, where we go out to even further afield a locations for a day or two days to give people the chance where they may not have any, for example, and EV dealers in their community. So we're really trying to reach everyone. And so that so those are the main things that we do. And I would just add the the other program that we have that we find is really helping consumers is our used EV program, which has a rebate attached to it. And we're doing this online through webinars. But it's to help people understand who who had that idea. Oh, you know, I love TV, but I think it's just too expensive for me, to help them understand that use TVs are a great opportunity affordable and available. And in the webinar we run through a you know sort of everything you need to know to choose the use EV that's right for you. And then plug and drive is offering $1,000 rebate to anyone who lives in Ontario if you buy a used EV
Dan Seguin 12:27
Eondering if you can tell us about plugging drives electric vehicle Discovery Center, and what goes on there?
Cara Clairman 12:33
So the Discovery Center is as I said, at bricks and mortar facilities, sort of imagined Science Center meets car showroom, you want to see some photos of it, you can just check it out on plugndrive.ca. And the great thing there is it's you know, interactive fun, like I said, like a science center, people come just for fun to learn. And of course, we aren't selling cars. So people don't have that pressure that they feel they sometimes have when they go to a dealership. And then we have all the makes and models sitting right there for people to test drive. And that test drive is so key to helping someone get over their concerns. Because a lot of the times people have a preconceived notion about what an EV might be like. And they don't realize like how fun it is to drive and that these are really fantastic vehicles with great pickup. And it kind of just reminds people of the quality and the fun. And then we can run through with them how much money they're going to save then the emission reductions. And our stats tell the story. About 35% of the people after visiting the center, within six months have bought an electric car.
Rebecca Schwartz 13:41
How can Canadian businesses support the transition to electric vehicles? And how can they acquire access to the proper funding?
Cara Clairman 13:48
Yeah, we've started doing a lot of work with businesses. And what we find is, you know, number one, what they can do is look at workplace charging, we know that the home is the number one place people want to charge about 80% of us plug in our cars at home at night, take advantage of low time of use prices. It's where it's convenient, all those reasons. But the second place people want to charge is that work. And actually studies out of California have shown that if someone sees a charger at work, and then talks to a colleague who has an EV at work, they're six times more likely to adopt an electric car. So one of the great things that business can do is put in some workplace charging and then also do some education around using that charging and help their employees get on board. And some businesses are even offering an incentive to their employees to consider an EV especially companies that are looking at their own GHG reduction targets and transportation might be one of the main emitters of their organizations. So they can use those charges for their own fleet. They can electrify their own fleet that way, and they can help their employees. So those are a couple of ways businesses can help support the transition. And then you've asked about access to funding there, there is some funding through NRCan the program is called ZEVIP where businesses can apply to get some funding for workplace tight charging systems,
Dan Seguin 15:25
it would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?
Cara Clairman 15:43
Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play and I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi unit buildings being built in their territory and that will ensure that the you know Ruffin is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi unit and we need to make it possible for these people to plug in. There's other roles they can play for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know their own EV policies for their you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for, for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging, there's there's lots of ways that municipalities can help. And there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing, I know of EV policies across municipalities, they don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Rebecca Schwartz 17:06
All right, Cara, can you talk to us about Canada's electric highway? Can we actually drive our east coast to coast?
Cara Clairman 17:14
Yes, you can. It's still not that easy, I have to say. But the thing I always want to remind is that this is not a trip that many people are doing. You know, maybe some of us have done it once in our life or, you know, it's the thing that happens very rarely. So it's not as critical. It's more of again, it's it's a nice to do, it's sort of a psychological thing. People think, Oh, it's great if you can, it's still a challenge, but doable and getting easier. You know, it's something that I would say, you know, it's not a trip I'm ever going to do. And I mean, I drive my car just more locally. So I wouldn't want people to hesitate getting an EV because this isn't the easiest trip to bake.
Dan Seguin 18:02
It seems that national sales of V's are closing in on 4%. What are your recommendations to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles in Canada?
Cara Clairman 18:12
Well, there's just a whole bunch of things we need to do. So for example, right now in British Columbia, we're hovering around 10% of new sales, Quebec close to 8%. Ontario, we're down at 2%. And so you can see that the variability in the different policies are leading to very different results. And so there's a couple of things we need to make some consistency across Canada, because what happens when you have certain provinces with really aggressive policies and certain policies, provinces without it, the vehicle supply goes to those provinces with the more aggressive policies, and then it's really hard for people, for example, in Ontario, to get vehicles, and so that ZEV mandate or ZED standard that the federal government is talking about is really important for making, you know, some more consistency across the whole country. So I'm very supportive of that. I'd also like to see some consistent building codes across the country. It seems ridiculous that in 2021, where we still have condos and apartment buildings being built with no potential for EV charging in the future, and it's so much more expensive to do a retrofit than to do it when you're building a building. So the building codes need to be updated to make sure that the buildings are required to at least rough in for EV charging in the future. So that's another really, really important one. And then, you know, we, you know, I'd like to say that the time of needing incentives is over, it isn't over. We still do need incentives for the next couple of years. I think we're going to hit price parity in a few years time and then we won't need them anymore. But for now, I think we do it Because the environmental benefit is so large, I think it makes sense that governments continue to support it.
Dan Seguin 20:06
What about charging stations is charging infrastructure rolling out at the pace to support the transition to 100% zero emission vehicle sales by 2035?
Cara Clairman 20:18
Well, we do still have more work to do in the area of public charging. But again, I'm one of those people who doesn't think this is as critical to the rollout as some other things. You know, as an EV, driver, and Dan, you said, you're also an EV driver, we're charging at home, most of us are charging at home. And we are very occasionally using public charging. I only use public charging a few times a year. And I think I'm pretty typical on a road trip or work trip. And so you do need more infrastructure. We can't have single chargers out there. You know, we need to multiply those we need them to be in strategic locations. We need them to be in places where you can grab a bite to eat and use facilities and all that. So there's work to do, but I'm not of the view that this is a primary barrier to EV adoption. Really, the infrastructure you need is at home and it's ready right now.
Rebecca Schwartz 21:18
Cara, can you tell us a bit about the sentiment among automotive manufacturers? Are they embracing the transition to a EV's at all?
Cara Clairman 21:25
Well, we're certainly I mean, you really can't turn on your news or open your your apps, which is how most of us probably get our news these days without seeing a new announcement. So we certainly are seeing the commitment to EVs. In the future, where there's a bit of a struggle, I would say as sort of right now. Right now in Canada supply extremely low, it's quite difficult to get vehicles, all the manufacturers are ramping up. But that doesn't happen overnight. And so, you know, we need to do a bit more to get the vehicles in here right now. The exciting thing is, you know, here in Ontario, we're going to be making EV's in the next couple of years. And so the supply challenge will get fixed. And and then we're going to see, I think, you know, just massive changes, but for now the next year to two years, we definitely have a struggle to to bring in the vehicles. And we have to show to the automakers that Canada is a good place for EV adoption, because of course they send the vehicles where they think the best opportunity is to sell them.
Dan Seguin 22:29
Cara - Just wondering what should consumers know about zero emissions vehicles today? How has technology evolved over the past few years? And are there funding opportunities for consumers looking to purchase one?
Cara Clairman 22:43
Well, of course, I want people to know that. EVs are a fantastic option right now what I hear from a lot of consumers, which which is helpful is you know, yes, EVs are the future, I'm sure that we're all going to be driving EVs, but what I think a lot of people don't realize is that they're totally ready for primetime right now. Fantastic quality, good range, everything you really need is already there. And of course, the fun and the super great pickup and all those things too. And so I think, you know, people shouldn't hesitate, that that when they're ready for new car, this should be it in terms of funding opportunities. I would say, you know, of course, the federal government still has its $5,000 rebate available. And as we you know, in the election, we basically got the same government and they have committed to continue that so we know that will continue. Some provinces have a provincial incentive that layers on top of that. Unfortunately, we don't have that in Ontario right now, which is makes us a little bit of a laggard. Compared to other provinces, there are now six provinces with rebates, which makes it hard for Ontario to attract vehicles. So when people go looking for a vehicle, they're challenged to find one. What I would tell consumers that are looking for one and don't want to have to get on a waiting list is to look at the used market. There's a lot of great options in the used market right now. And of course, as I said, plugin drive has $1,000 incentive to buy a used EV and an extra $1,000 if you scrap an old gas car and buy used EV so so that's a great option if you can't find the new vehicle that you're looking for.
Rebecca Schwartz 24:28
In your view, Cara, what does the future of Canada look like when it comes to zero emission vehicles?
Cara Clairman 24:34
Well, I think I think pretty much everyone has realized even the most Die Hard sort of auto analysts who really really hesitated on EVs in terms of their reporting. I think even they have realized like this is coming there's no stopping it. The question mark is like how fast and I think groups like mine and other other EV sort of Advocacy type groups are really it's all about how can we get this transition to happen faster because if you agree that climate change is a crisis, we really can't wait for sort of a slow market transition, we need to do everything we can to speed it up. So if that includes incentives, that includes building codes, that includes ZEV mandate policies, that includes all sorts of local initiatives to try to encourage people to speed it up. But I do feel very optimistic that you know, we are going to see a huge swaying in the direction of EVs even by 2030.
Dan Seguin 25:37
Okay, Cara, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Cara Clairman 25:42
Okay, skip the skip the favorite word. I really didn't have one.
Dan Seguin 25:46
What is the one thing you can't live without?
Cara Clairman 25:50
Coffee
Dan Seguin 25:50
What is something that challenges you?
Cara Clairman 25:53
Something that challenges me? Well, I mean, I guess the reality is in a nonprofit setting, you're always you're always having to raise money. And so that's always a challenge for anybody in the NGO sector. That's that's probably our biggest challenge.
Dan Seguin 26:09
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Cara Clairman 26:14
Well, I think I would love the teleportation oh my gosh, you know, I love EVs. But let's face it, there's still cars. And, you know, they still contribute to gridlock and traffic and all that and would just be so awesome to be able to just teleport to some other location.
Dan Seguin 26:32
Now, Cara, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?
Cara Clairman 26:39
I would tell her to do more public speaking. Who knew I would end up you know, doing so much public speaking in my career, I really didn't get started until I was much older. And I feel like it's a useful skill for any job just to feel confident talking in front of other people, whether that's five people or 500 people. So I would definitely say get yourself in front of an audience and practice public speaking.
Dan Seguin 27:06
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Cara Clairman 27:12
Oh, my gosh, my sector is so fascinating. You know, it's funny because I come from the electricity sector as you do. And I think there's a lot of people with this idea. That's kind of an old, stodgy, boring sector. And so I find it so exciting that there's so many opportunities for innovation. And it's not just EV, it's storage, and renewables, and there's just there's just so much of interest happening in the electricity sector. I hope young people are really looking at it for future career options.
Rebecca Schwartz 27:43
Alright, Cara, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you had fun.
Cara Clairman 27:50
I did. Thank you so much for having me.
Dan Seguin 27:53
We reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Again, thank you for joining us today. And Rebecca. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Rebecca Schwartz 28:03
I did. Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 28:04
Rebecca and I will be co hosting going forward in 2021. Thanks for joining us. See you folks.
In Canada, women represent approximately one to two percent of active powerline technicians working in the electricity industry. What are the barriers that these women face? And what improvements can be made for future generations of women? Lana Norton - Executive Director and Founder at Women of Powerline Technicians as well as the Supervisor of Field Metering Services at Hydro Ottawa joins us to share her experience since graduating as one of two women from a powerline tech program in 2010.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:04
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 00:07
And we'll be hosting the ThinkEnergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations within the energy sector.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:26
We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcome the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners.
Dan Seguin 00:37
So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:43
This is the think energy podcast.
Dan Seguin 00:50
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. And this episode is titled, The Wonder Woman of powerline technicians, folks, I'm Dan Seguin,
Rebecca Schwartz 01:01
and I'm Rebecca Schwartz. Hey, Dan, did you know that there are still industries that use gender job titles, and the default is always men? I'm thinking jobs like firemen, policemen, mailman,
Dan Seguin 01:14
Batman, Iron Man, Superman?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:16
Hmm, kind of like that, but not exactly. I'm also thinking about our own industry, and how within the energy sector line men is still very commonly used. You're
Dan Seguin 01:26
absolutely right, Rebecca. I think these gender job titles are an artifact from a bygone era, when women were forbidden to work, and later had very limited career options, the jobs you mentioned, and many more were deemed men's work. And so their title reflected that,
Rebecca Schwartz 01:47
right. And because it's taken so long for women to achieve any sort of equality in the workforce, and side note, we still have a very long way to go. A lot of these gender biases and male dominated fields still very much exist. And as a woman, I can say that it's kind of frustrating.
Dan Seguin 02:02
I know it's overly simplistic, but it makes you wonder if these gender bias job titles dissuaded lots of women from considering these careers,
Rebecca Schwartz 02:12
probably and I think the energy sector remains one of the least gendered diverse industries, with women making up only 22% of workers. And in the renewable energy space. It's just slightly better with 32%. But most of these are admin positions.
Dan Seguin 02:28
Hmm, I guess you're right. We do have a long way to go. Let's move on to today's big question. In Canada, women represent approximately one to 2% of active powerline technicians working in the electricity industry. What are the barriers these women face? And what improvements can be made for future generations of women?
Rebecca Schwartz 02:52
Well, I'm excited about our guest today Dan. Lana Norton is the executive director and founder at women of powerline technicians, a not for profit whose mission is to have women as equal participants in trade and technical roles in the energy sector. With a decade of field experience in Canada's electricity sector, she has held progressive roles and distribution operations. Now she's a colleague of ours here at hydro Ottawa as the supervisor of field metering services. Welcome, Lana. Maybe you can start by telling our listeners a bit about what drew you to the powerline Technician program.
Lana Norton 03:29
And thank you very much, Rebecca again for having me. Yeah, so I first attended the powerline Technician program just over 10 years ago, the journey that led me to the pursuing a career in the trades and as a powerline technician, was that it kind of it happened unexpectedly that I ended up in the trades and what kind of prompt and that was, I was a young mom. And so I became a mom at 20 and by the time I was 21, I was a single mom. In the next two years, I spent my time getting established and creating a life for my daughter and I and I was really on the path of you know, financial stability and what was that going to look like in creating a life for her and me. So to me, that was a career in the trades. And so, you know, I spent two years looking all over the province for you know, an opportunity within the powerline technician and I had one employer reach out to me and let me know of new school in Sudbury that was now offering a two year college diploma and powerline technician and from their employers where we're hiring out of that program because it would give apprentices a jumpstart on their apprenticeship and the knowledge and what we kind of brought into the trade,
Rebecca Schwartz 05:06
I understand you were the second woman to graduate from the powerline tech program back in 2010, at the first college in Ontario to offer the training, what was that experience like?
Lana Norton 05:16
I worked for it. When few people that have that have been like you that have come before you and gone through that you really do show up every day, and you're showing other people that you can do it. And at the same time, you're also building that skill and that resiliency within yourself. I was very fortunate. And, you know, I met a lot of amazing people along the way. When I was up in that power line program, you know, something that comes to mind is the, you know, I mentioned that I was a mom. And so my daughter had relocated to attend school with me. And yeah, in the time that I was up there, if she was safe, or if a daycare was closed, there were definitely instances where I had to bring her to class with me to write a test. And so, you know, me being the only woman there. When we parent and a group of 24 young men, they were like a bunch of brothers. And, you know, if I was still writing my test, and they'd finished my daughter, who was three at the time, you know, they would watch over her, so I could finish my test. So there was definitely a lot of really great things that came out of that program.
Dan Seguin 06:42
Lana, can you tell us more about the roles you've had, and what you love most about your job,
Lana Norton 06:48
Sure. So I was hired as an apprentice powerline technician. And from there, I took on a role as a field operator. And as a field operator, I worked as an intern, the system works in a 24 hour, seven days a week capacity if you're on rotating shifts. And you know, what I really enjoyed was, so as an apprentice powerline technician, you've got a view of the city, one job one specific geographical area, the time you're working on building this pole line. And and when I took on the role of the field operator, I became city wide, meaning that through like an outage that happened in the east end of the city, I was going there. And I was just as comfortable in the East operating equipment as it was in the west. And so I really enjoyed the overall view of the grid, and how the power moves throughout the city. And from there, I took on a field technician role. And so as the field technician, I was a member of distribution engineering, and asset management. And so what we did there was we did the overall planning and preparing the work to hand over to the crews to execute in the field. So there were a lot of large pull lines that we had to get built. And I was in charge of preparing that for the crew. In my current role, I'm a supervisor of metering Field Services, and I oversee a team of meter technicians. So with that, every morning, I'm preparing the team for the you know the day's jobs and revealing jobs, and timelines and the resources available to complete the work. My favorite part of the day is meeting with my team in the morning. And I get to hear their challenges and what they see in the field. And then how we can go ahead and problem solve that.
Dan Seguin 08:39
Maybe you could tell us about your nonprofit organization, women of powerline technicians and what motivated you to create it? And lastly, what are some of the benefits of joining your organization?
Lana Norton 08:52
Women of powerline technicians was first established in 2016. And we are the voice from the field committed to increasing women in trade and technical roles in Canada's electricity sector and beyond. As a national not for profit. Our mission is to have women as equal participants in the trade and the technical roles in the electricity sector. So our approach consists of two streams. We advise leaders through a gender equity lens on how to advance their diversity and inclusion goals. And women as PLT also offers programming. Our programming is open to men and women with a focus of supporting women in early mid and late careers in the trade and technical roles in our programming includes mentoring 24 seven peer group, career postings, networking events, we have a student bursary and the illuminate blog. What motivated me to create women's PLT was I'd mentioned earlier Dan, when you know when I first came through the program at cambrin I was the second one To do so, and up until that point in, in early 2010, I had heard, I'd heard rumors that there are other women doing this job in the province, but I couldn't specifically find find them and connect with them. And so after I graduated, many of the men that I made friends with in the program as they went on, and we all became employed in the province, could reach back out to me to say, Lana, like, I saw another woman working today. And so it was over that time that I was able to connect with those women and be able to, you know, like tie in the network. And it's the overall ability, knowing that you might be alone, where you are geographically, every day, because there are so few of us. But at the end of the night, you get to go home, you can log on online, and you can connect with those women. That was really the motivation, because we're not alone in this,
Dan Seguin 11:11
with skilled trade shortages across Canada. What would you tell women considering a career in this line of work? What advice would you give them, Lana?
Rebecca Schwartz 11:20
And what do you wish someone might have told you when you first started?
Lana Norton 11:24
women are able to do this. And when we look broadly, and especially in the recovery of the pandemic, we see we hear, it's out there that women are overrepresented in sectors that have been most vulnerable during recessions. And during the Coronavirus rate. So we see that women are over represented in service and hospitality and tourism. And these have all been slower to recover, when you put that in context. And you will also consider beginning of this month on October 1, there was a 10 cent an hour increase to the rate of minimum wage, bringing it up to $14.35. And you pair that with the Ontario government has has such a push on right now to support people in coming out of the pandemic, and upskilling and being able to train and, you know, take on jobs within the skilled trades, because there is a labor shortage there. But I would say that for women that this is the time that that you do need to plan your life backwards sometimes. And that. While it may not have been, you know, initially, most people I would say don't wake up in the morning thinking that the skilled trades are absolutely for me. But at any point during your life, you're you know, you're able to re evaluate that and where you want to be. And, and having, you know, a career in the trades provides that stability that that lifestyle, but maybe what you're seeking.
Dan Seguin 12:58
Now moving on, why do you think women are underrepresented in the energy sector, Lana?
Lana Norton 13:05
I think that the energy sector has been doing a great job in communicating ours and their value to customers. And through the different medium, and media platforms, we've been able to demonstrate that women are here, and that we're successful. As an industry, the expectations of our customers, I feel has shifted over time, right. And like, we see that here today with the podcast as well, that our customers are now expecting something different of energy companies and are expecting communications on the touch points of their lives. Historically, that line of communication hasn't always been open and available to our customers. And one of the effects of not having that open ended communication is that the customers don't necessarily see who's here, right. He's here, and he's keeping the light on and on the different jobs that are currently available within, you know, a local distribution company. So that visibility always hasn't been there. But it's through, you know, podcasts, that we're able to create that new line of vision into what it is we do. Right, so really speaks to you creating visibility for the sector. And so I would also say that there's always been a push to have women, you know, join the workforce, right. And I think over time that what people believe is that women were just going to start trickling in and that the numbers would just continue to grow and grow and grow with the times. And and we just haven't seen that to the effect that I think everybody thought that we would and so creating further visibility for what it is we do, really helps but when it also speaks to some of the historical underrepresentation meaning that you know, the career has been harder to find. And so if you didn't necessarily have a parent working within the energy sector, you may be yourself you weren't sure how to how to get that started.
Dan Seguin 15:13
Now I just learned from a recent interview you gave that in Canada, only one to 2% of powerline technicians are women, how can we close the gap in advancing the role of women in this sector?
Lana Norton 15:25
We're still sitting at the one to 2% as powerline technicians. And so how we can work in advance that number, quicken the pace of change. We've seen some brilliant initiatives and programs happen as of lately. So one of the ones I'll speak about is a Algonquin College, they put together a program called "We saved you a seat". And what that program does, it saves 30% of the seats for women in the top five STEM programs. powerline technician being one of them. And so you know, the research is there on the tipping point. At which point, you know, a class balance shifts, and that, you know, you no longer feel like you're one of the few but the conversation the dynamics in the class have started to shift. So 30% really starts mixing the gender balance. So we're seeing progressive movements in programs like that come forward, I also think that we need to set goals, and that we need to target the talent. You know, without setting a goal becomes very difficult to achieve. And we need to be intentional about who we're targeting. And you know, the talent that we want to come come work for us. It's also time that we change the conversation. Since the 80s, this conversation has been like more women in skilled trades, we're looking for more women in skilled trades. But the conversation I believe that you know, would be valuable and having is start explaining to, to the to the talents of the people that we want to come work for us what it is we exactly do like that we are building energy systems to power our future. we're advancing smart grid technology for netzero communities. And we're investing in energy storage. I think that would be a thing that you know, the new talent like they want to connect with, right? And then we're finding people that align with the goals that we're looking to achieve.
Rebecca Schwartz 17:38
So as the chair of the program Advisory Committee for the electrical engineering and the powerline Technician program for Algonquin College, what are you learning from new students and graduates,
Lana Norton 17:50
the new students are informed and they're prepared. And they have access to more data, more podcasts, more blogs, and more social media than we've ever seen before. And with that comes a lot of insight to to how things are evolving and changing in the trade and what those expectations are. And as leaders, we need to remain mindful of the knowledge that they're able to bring to the job. And you know, when we look at the electricity sector, there's been such an emphasis placed on tradition, right? Like, we are very traditional and how we do things and for the last 120 years, we've always set poles and, and the wires and that's our business and, and this new generation, they have a lot of insight and ideas. How to transform things and being able to take that information and and keep them engaged is something that, you know, I'm continually learning from that program.
Dan Seguin 19:00
In your opinion, how should employers in the energy sector be attracting, recruiting and retaining the next generation of women in trades?
Rebecca Schwartz 19:12
Basically, Dan is asking, what do women want?
Lana Norton 19:15
if we're looking at what women want, and they're looking for equal pay equal leadership and equal opportunities and electricity sector does a good job of this. You know, like when we look at equal pay, for example, that's a given based on the fact that we have a union in here and whether you like all level one apprentices are paid the same, all level two apprentices are paid the same. You know, and we have that and I may not be clear to somebody on the outside looking in, but that is something that is already there and given when you come to the table. So I think we're partway there. And when we look at equal leadership, although women are underrepresented within the electricity sector, the Equal Opportunities are here. Right? that women are given, you know, being given a chance to, to work their way into leadership, to take on different roles. And so in time, we will see that leadership comes, but, you know, like, equal leadership. But for now, you know, the pay and the opportunities are here, and inviting more women to, you know, come into the organization and join that just means that there's more of us among the ranks in order to move into leadership positions.
Rebecca Schwartz 20:51
As we talk about inclusivity and making sure that everyone belongs at work. Can you speak to some of the biggest challenges for women, it is clearly still a male dominated field. But is that changing? And is it fast enough
Lana Norton 21:05
for people living at the forefront of change? And speaking about the women, sometimes it can feel like it's simply just not fast enough. And then there are some that when reflecting on the history of providing an electrical service over the last 120 years, when all of the gains and diversity has been hiring a handful of women in the last decade, they can simply feel like the transition is too fast, only look at our energy systems and climate change. The reality is that it's simply not fast enough. It's a conversation about being better than we are today. And better includes diverse voices, and perspectives.
Dan Seguin 21:50
What excites you about the energy field of the future? What would you like to see or maybe even lead, we exist
Lana Norton 21:58
in a place where power has become a necessity and time without it is measured in minutes. And this speaks to the astounding reliability of our electrical systems and the people who are accountable to our customers. As we look to the future, I'm really excited by distributed energy resources and what they bring to our grid capabilities, and the ways that we will continue to evolve to meet our customer expectations. In the future, I would like to contribute in a larger way to the multilateral grid sustainability, and energy policy. For now though, I'm enjoying my time the metering team.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:40
Alright, Lana, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Lana Norton 22:44
I'm ready.
Rebecca Schwartz 22:45
What is your favorite word?
Lana Norton 22:46
eliminate?
Rebecca Schwartz 22:48
What is one thing that you can't live without? My family? What is something that challenges you?
Lana Norton 22:53
Time
Rebecca Schwartz 22:54
And if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Lana Norton 22:58
That I was good at telling jokes?
Rebecca Schwartz 23:00
And if you could turn back time to talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?
Lana Norton 23:06
That you're going to enjoy the person that you become and you're going to be fiercely independent? Alright, Lana,
Rebecca Schwartz 23:12
lastly, what do you currently find the most interesting in your sector,
Lana Norton 23:17
the willpower of others, in recognising the need for change to transform our electricity sector to meet future climate targets, and energies
Dan Seguin 23:27
Well, I know, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Lana Norton 23:36
I did. Thank you very much for having me.
Dan Seguin 23:40
We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Again, thank you for joining us today. And Rebecca. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Rebecca Schwartz 23:49
I did. Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 23:51
Rebecca and I will be co hosting going forward in 2021. Thanks for joining us. See you folks.
When you try and wrap your head around what it will take to get Canada to net-zero by 2050, do you wonder what kind of energy transformation that will entail? With less than 30 years to hit net-zero greenhouse gas emissions, today’s topic for discussion is what it will take to revolutionize the way we consume and use all forms of energy. Here with us is Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association, to share how we can achieve this goal.
Related Content & Links:
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:04
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from Hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 00:07
And we'll be hosting the ThinkEnergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations within the energy sector
Rebecca Schwartz 00:26
We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcome the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners.
Dan Seguin 00:37
So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:43
This is the ThinkEnergy podcast.
Dan Seguin 00:50
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast and I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:55
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz. In November 2020, the Government of Canada introduced a bill setting the stage to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Dan, how old will you be in 2050?
Dan Seguin 01:08
I don't know, Rebecca, you have to ask me then, when I wake up from my cryogenically frozen state along with Walt Disney, that's the plan.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:17
Okay, good to know
Dan Seguin 01:19
When you try and wrap your head around what it will take to get Canada to net zero by 2050, do you wonder what kind of energy transformation that will entail?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:30
I'm still thinking about what you said about being cryogenically frozen. But yes, I think it's going to be a massive undertaking and necessary one. Ontario currently produces 163 megatons of greenhouse gas emissions. And 76% of that is from emissions stemming from energy use.
Dan Seguin 01:51
Right. But when we talk about energy, we're not talking about electricity. We're talking about refined petroleum, primarily used for transportation and natural gas to heat our homes and buildings.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:05
That's right. Those two sectors, transportation and buildings make up 76% of the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, however, the electricity sector makes up only 16%. So here's today's big question. What are the keys to net zero success?
Dan Seguin 02:23
It's interesting, because, as you know, despite what the electricity sector in Ontario has achieved in terms of renewable energy, and curbing its greenhouse gas emissions, the conversation almost always still revolves around the electricity sector when it comes to climate change. Which brings us to today's show.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:45
Recently, the Ontario Energy Association released a white paper that reviewed various elements of the provinces energy system and the options available to achieve zero emissions by 2050.
Dan Seguin 02:57
Our guest today is Vince Brescia, President and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:07
Vince, welcome to the show. Perhaps you can start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what the Ontario Energy Association does.
Vince Brescia 03:15
Thanks, Rebecca, and thanks for having me on the show. I'm the president and CEO of the Ontario Energy Association. I've been active in public policy work and research since the late 1980s, I guess, inside the government and in various capacities outside of the government, then I've been here at the OEA for the last five years and really enjoying it. Here's of who the OEA is we represent the the breadth of Ontario's energy industry. We have power producers of all the different fuel types, you know, whether that's nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, etc. We have demand response and storage. We have the large electricity distributors representing 75% of Ontario's customer base. We also have the natural gas distributors representing over 99% of Ontario's customers in terms of what we do the OEA conducts Public Policy Research and advocates on behalf of its members. And we also provide forums for education on Energy and Environment issues. So that's a quick snapshot of me and the OEA
Dan Seguin 04:27
Now Vince with respect to the government of Canada's goal to reach net zero emissions by 2050. What is the role of the Ontario Energy Association in this initiative?
Vince Brescia 04:40
Thanks. Yeah, reaching net zero by 2050 will be a massive undertaking, perhaps the largest infrastructure projects in our country's history. So our role at the OEA is going to be to leverage the expertise of our members and advise governments at all levels about how we can make this transition happen. while still maintaining the affordability and reliability of our energy supply, it's going to be a big challenge. And we're all going to need to work together to achieve this goal.
Rebecca Schwartz 05:08
So what kinds of major transformation will it take to achieve the government's goals?
Vince Brescia 05:14
I'll break it down in a couple of different ways. In Ontario, 76% of our emissions come from the energy we use. So reaching our goals will require a major transformation of our energy system. 23% of those emissions come from industrial processes and product use 10% of agriculture, percent based so that gives you the full spectrum of the emissions in Ontario. But because we're an Energy Association, we've focused on the energy component and the transformation required in the energy system. Or there are some overlaps. For example, we're hopeful some of those waste emissions can be turned into energy just as an example. But then turning to energy. Currently in Ontario 80% of the energy we use comes from fossil fuel sources. 48% is from petroleum primarily for transportation uses. Another 28% is from natural gas primarily to heat our homes and buildings. 16% comes from electricity, which is now a clean energy source. So altogether, achieving our goal is going to require us to transform 80% of our energy system. That's a big project. And the three big sources of emissions in Ontario are transportation, buildings and industry. Altogether, those account for almost 80% of our emissions. So we're going to have to swap up the fuels that we use in transportation, we're going to need to decarbonize our building heating systems. And many of our industries and businesses are going to have to adapt to new fuel sources. This gives you a sense of the scale of the challenge. But also with comes that comes with that is a large opportunity of the to go to go hand in hand.
Dan Seguin 06:56
2015 is 30 years away. But it's fair to say that Ontario's emissions have changed a lot in the past 30 years. Vince, can you give us a snapshot of how our energy use has changed since 1990. What sectors and provinces have improved the most?
Vince Brescia 07:16
In 2019. Just to give you a sense of where we're at Canada emitted 730 mega tons of ghgs of that Ontario represented 163 mega tons or 22% of the national total. Over time since 1990, Ontario's emissions have declined from 180 megatons to 163, which is a reduction of about 17 megatons or 9%. We still have another 19 megatons to go to meet our 2030 target of 30% below 2005 levels. That's not factoring in the recent national commitment by our Prime Minister to reduce emissions by 40 to 45%. By 2030. In terms of you asked about how you know how the provinces have, have compared and fared nationally, Ontario has made the largest largest progress nationally. That came primarily from the elimination of coal fired generation in the province. That one policy change resulted in a 31 mega ton reduction reduction in emissions from its peak in 2005. However, a lot of those emissions reductions in Ontario have been offset by increases in emissions from our transportation sector since 1990. Nationally, to give you a sense of how other provinces have done, you know, to the east of Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec together, have reduced emissions by 19 megatons in total since 2005. However, west of Ontario, the emissions profile has been rising. So altogether, nationally, our emissions have been flat since 2005. And if you look back to 1991, they're up from the 600 megatons to the 730 we're at now.
Rebecca Schwartz 08:57
Vince, the Ontario Energy Association outlines six recommendations in the report, can you walk us through what those are at a high level and why you believe they're the keys to netzero success,
Vince Brescia 09:09
I'll do a quick walk through. Our first recommendation is that we need to move as quickly as we can on transportation fuel switching. And that's because we have almost all of the technologies we need to affordably transform the sector and because transportation is our largest source of emissions. So that's what we need to tackle first, and we can do it affordably. Second is we need to start reducing emissions in our natural gas system is our second largest source of emissions. And if we get time later, we can talk a bit about some of the things we can do in that area. The third thing we're going to need to do is to plan to expand our electricity system, all this fuel switching. I've been talking about like for example in transportation, and we're going to need it in industry as well. We're going to need a lot more electricity and we're going to need every type of resource. We're going to need nuclear, hydro, wind, solar storage demand response transmission, you name it, we're going to need the whole package to meet the amount of electricity that's needed. Some people talk about a doubling or tripling of our electricity. Some, we're gonna need a lot more electricity as we transform our economy. The fourth thing that we recommended is that we start to accelerate accelerate hydrogen programs and pilots, we're gonna need a lot of hydrogen in our future, because there's certain types of industrial processes and activities, where it's not so easy to swap out the fossil fuels that we use. And hydrogen seems like a highly likely candidate, or hydrogen based fuels. But we have a bit of work to do to develop those and make them affordable for customers. So we need governments to lean in and help with pilot projects, and put their thumb on the scale, so to speak, to accelerate this economy and help build the infrastructure that we need to service the economy. Fifth recommendation we made is that there be comprehensive energy planning, not just electricity policy. In Ontario, we have tended to have a history of focusing just on the electricity system. And you've heard me mentioned earlier, it currently only accounts for 16% of our total energy use. We now now need to think about our whole energy system holistically. And make a detailed plan about what it's going to cost, what the most likely pathways are. The final recommendation is that we're going to need federal, provincial and municipal coordination. All three levels of governments are active in the space, all are having an impact and can have an impact. But we're not going to be successful if they're not coordinating their efforts, or if they're working at cross purposes, or fighting each other's or turning issues into political wedges, you know, against each other. We need to all work together because you know, as I mentioned earlier, this is a massive undertaking. And if we're going to be successful, we all need to work together in coordination. So that's a quick summary of our recommendations.
Dan Seguin 12:11
You note that in order for the transition to be successful in Ontario, careful attention needs to be paid to three core pillars that are the underpinning of the energy system. What are those?
Vince Brescia 12:24
Yeah, thanks for asking. Now we know from from experience that are three critical pillars that underpin public support for our energy system. The first is sustainability, which encompasses the net zero discussion we are having today. our energy system must be sustainable over the long term, and that includes ensuring that we utilize energy in a way that ensures the environmental sustainability of our communities, and of our planet. Of course, the two other pillars, though, are affordability, and reliability. We have recent experience in Ontario that significant increases in energy costs lead to very negative customer and voter reactions. We must keep our customers informed and supportive of the transition, or they will rebel against the effort. Finally, our modern economy is also very dependent upon reliable energy. customers expect and depend on energy being available when they need it. If we go too long, without energy to heat our homes or power to run our economy, or God forbid, keep our cell phones charged. It causes major disruption for all of us. So our transition must ensure we continue to provide an energy in the reliable fashion that our consumers have grown accustomed to,
Rebecca Schwartz 13:36
In your opinion, Vince, what are some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieve the 2015 zero emission targets? For instance, are there any activities that we can't fully eliminate?
Vince Brescia 13:47
Yes, some of the biggest barriers and challenges to achieving our goals will come from what some call the hard to abate sectors. These sectors are characterized by high material volumes, and finding alternative processes that are affordable, it's going to be a challenge for us. These are also some of our largest sources of emissions globally. And the big three are cement, steel and chemicals. Cement is one of the largest sources of global emission each tonne of cement produces about a half a tonne of carbon dioxide. And this has two main components. One is from the chemical reaction of turning limestone, which is calcium carbonate, and to lime, which releases co2. The other is from the energy component that we use to cook the limestone to over 1000 degrees Celsius, which is typically fossil fuels. So you have two elements, you have both an energy element and a chemical element that leads to large emissions from that sector. And that's going to be a challenge to decarbonize that sector. Steel is another one steel is the highest emitting industry in the world. It produces 3.5 Giga tons of co2 globally. Like cement, they're both energy In process admissions, we make primary steel out of iron ore, which is iron oxide, we add coal to the iron ore for its heat energy to essentially boil the you're kind of like we did we do for the cement, and for its chemical properties that allow us to strip off the oxygen atoms. This results in a chemical process where you end up with pure iron and co2 emissions. We produce steel in Ontario. And we also produce a lot of cars, which use a lot of steel and steel and a lot of other processes. So we're Ontario is going to have to tackle this one head on and it's going to be a challenge. The third big challenging areas, chemicals, petrochemicals and plastic production are the other large area of emissions globally and Ontario. There's a more diverse range of products here, but the largest one is ammonia, which we use for fertilizer in agriculture. And the next are ethylene and propylene, which are the most important ingredients and plastics. Again, there's going to be some difficulties and challenges and a lot of technology required to decarbonize those sectors.
Rebecca Schwartz 16:07
Let's talk about opportunities and leveraging technology and innovation. What's exciting you or giving you hope for the future?
Vince Brescia 16:14
There are some activities, we're going to need a lot of Innovation and Learning before we'll be able to eliminate emissions. According to the International Energy Agency, almost half the emissions cuts necessary for us to achieve net zero will come from technologies that are not in the marketplace yet. Some of the more exciting areas that are important and looked like they have significant potential, I would say are the following three hydrogen and hydrogen based fuels. governments around the world are developing hydrogen strategies. It looks to be very competitive globally, every major western country is working on a hydrogen strategy. And Ontario in Canada have some leading companies in this area like we have Enbridge Cummins hydrogenics, new flyer Ballard loop energy, planetary hydrogen, hydro energy, it's going to be a very exciting area is watching the hydrogen economy develop. That's what I'm excited about. The other one is energy storage, particularly long duration energy storage. We store lots of energy, now we have the technology. The costs are coming down fast. But what's really going to help us transform our economy is the ability to store energy for a long period of times and learn to do that affordably. There's lots of people looking at that and working on it, it's going to be a significant growth area. And I'm very excited about it. The third big one is is carbon capture utilization and storage, we are absolutely going to need carbon capture and storage if we're going to meet our netzero goals. One of the examples is cement, which I talked about earlier, I talked about this process where we boil the limestone and the chemical reaction leads to a bunch of emissions. The only thing I'm really hearing about from experts who know a lot more about this stuff than I do is that we're gonna need carbon capture to capture the carbon dioxide that comes from that cement. And cement. You know, as I mentioned, it's a very large global emissions producers. And that's just one example. There are lots of places where we're going to need carbon capture in our future to meet our goals. So there's a there's there's three areas that I'm excited about where I think we're going to see a lot of growth.
Dan Seguin 18:21
How important is energy affordability for Ontarians?
Vince Brescia 18:26
It's critically important. History has shown us that Ontarians react negatively to energy cost increase. If the government's Transition Plans a significant negative impact on energy and affordability. Families and businesses will rebel against the plan and the plan will get derailed. Oh, it is critically important. We have to keep it in mind.
Dan Seguin 18:45
What lessons can be learned from when Ontario's electricity rates increase to pay for renewable investments? And how can these lessons be applied to Canada's goal for 2050?
Vince Brescia 18:59
It's a great question. I'll give you my perspective. I think one important lesson we can learn from that experience is that sudden large spikes in energy costs are very upsetting to people and they draw lots of attention. They draw lots of political attention, lots of media attention. I think you can socialize the idea that costs may have to arise incrementally over time and get people used to the idea. However, most households don't pay much attention to public policy discussions and debates. They just look at their bill. They compare their last bill to this one, or this month's bill compared to this month last year to see how it's doing. So whatever plan we develop, if we can avoid sudden spikes, I think you can invoke you can avoid the negative public reactions, like the one we saw. That's what we can learn from that previous experience.
Rebecca Schwartz 19:47
Ontario's electricity system is one of the cleanest in the world. What does removing natural gas from the provinces supply mean for the reliability of the grid?
Vince Brescia 19:58
It's a great question. It's one that's getting discussed more. In the current climate, Ontario's Nash natural gas plants were built only recently to replace the reliability service offered by the coal plants we were shutting down. Once we had the capabilities of these natural gas plants in place, we were able to add a large volume of renewables to our system, resulting Ontario having one of the cleanest electricity systems in the world. These gas plants are like a backup to our electricity system. Most of the time the plants are not utilized much while we power the system with you know, nuclear, hydro, wind and solar and other other sources. That's why our system is so clean currently, because the plants are set seldom run at full capacity, so we get fewer emissions from them. However, when we have a large spike in demand on a really cool day, or a really hot day, these plants kick in to help maintain system reliability. They can be deployed on relatively short notice to meet urgent needs. Like the coal plants that they replace, these plants have access to something that is critically important for grid reliability, vast amounts of energy storage, this capability is not easy or affordable to replace. So we're going to need the services of these plants for some time before we're going to be able to replace them,
Rebecca Schwartz 21:12
can we replace natural gas to heat our homes and buildings and what will it take to make it happen? Vince,
Vince Brescia 21:19
we are going to need to maintain our gases to heat our homes and buildings for some time, we can change what goes into the system to make it cleaner and we can reduce the amount of energy we need from the system. I'll try and put it into perspective for you. The natural gas system currently provides about three times the peak energy of our electricity system. In other words, we would need to quadruple our current electricity system to meet the current peak heat demand if we wanted to transition to electric heat across Ontario. To give you a sense of the scale of that, if we were going to replace all of the gas system with electricity that would require about 24 nuclear generating stations. Or it would take 30 to 50,000 wind turbines paired with long duration energy storage, acquiring about 1.3 million acres for siting, you get a sense that this would be a pretty massive undertaking, and would probably be very expensive for customers. At the same time, we are going to have to expand our electricity system to deal with significant electrification and transportation, which we've talked about, and an industry which we've also talked about. So if we were to add the electrification of the natural gas system on top of that, that would likely not be achievable. So this informs the view that we should be looking at ways to decarbonize the natural gas system. And we're doing that now. Firstly, we've begun to blend renewable natural gas into our system, which takes methane from waste that was otherwise go into the atmosphere. Methane is a very potent greenhouse gas, making this a carbon negative activity. We're also blending green emissions free hydrogen into our gas system. Going forward, we'll be continuously exploring technological advances that allow us to increase the amount of that blend of hydrogen and renewable natural gas into our system. In addition, if we were to pair our current heating system with heat pumps, we can make a significant reduction in the amount of natural gas needed to heat our homes and buildings. On top of all of that, you know, research has shown us that we can affordably achieve significant reductions in the amount of natural gas use through building energy efficiency measures. So when you put all of those things together, you know, our view is that we can deeply decarbonize the natural gas system, and do that relatively affordability which reduces the scale relatively affordably as well and it reduces the scale of the electricity expansion that is going to be required. In Ontario for all these other activities we've talked about.
Dan Seguin 23:52
As we know from your report, refined petroleum makes up 48% of Ontario's energy use mostly for transportation. Are electric vehicles the answer to the transportation sectors greenhouse gas emissions problem here in Ontario.
Vince Brescia 24:10
Yes, they are a large part of the answer. Transportation as you mentioned, it's Ontario's largest source of emissions. passenger vehicles currently make up 57% of our transportation emissions, electric electrification of these passenger vehicles and a smaller short haul trucks and transit uses this can be done affordably with current technology, very exciting. I expect this transition to really accelerate and the next while for heavier and long haul transportation, we may need other solutions to be part of the mix. Long Haul and heavy transportation is less amenable to electrification because the batteries get too big and heavy and refueling time, you know adds significantly to cost for these uses. You know, we could be looking at learning compressed natural gas and renewable natural gas to to get to net zero most analysts seem to think that hydrogen fuel cells will be an important part of the long term substitution for heavy transportation. exciting part, as I've mentioned, we have a number of leading hydrogen companies in Canada and Ontario that are, that are making these these fuel cells. So it's also an economic opportunity for our province. And also, you know, you think of the materials for batteries and some of the the steel and inputs to the these vehicles that we're talking about, there's another economic opportunity there for Ontario. For some other transportations like ships and planes, we're just going to need alternative fuels. And again, the batteries be too heavy, you need a high energy density of the fuel. And we have, we may be looking at variants on hydrogen fuels like ammonia, that are very, very dense in energy in order to the fuel all those activities. And what we're going to do to try and figure out as a way to develop those supply chains affordably to set out those users.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:04
Alright, then, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Vince Brescia 26:08
All right,
Rebecca Schwartz 26:09
what is your favorite word?
Vince Brescia 26:11
Reason
Rebecca Schwartz 26:12
What is one thing you can't live without?
Vince Brescia 26:14
Air And Starbucks coffee.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:17
What is something that challenges you?
Vince Brescia 26:19
golf. I keep trying, but it keeps challenging me.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:22
If you could have one superpower events, what would it be?
Vince Brescia 26:26
Time Travel
Rebecca Schwartz 26:27
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?
Vince Brescia 26:32
Oh, with my new superpower, I'd say invest all your savings and Berkshire Hathaway and leave it there.
Rebecca Schwartz 26:38
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Vince Brescia 26:42
You know what I love the technological innovation that is taking place in our sector. I mean, we've been talking about it today. It's exciting. It's a very exciting time to be part of the sector. I'm learning every day about new technologies and processes. And I love it.
Dan Seguin 26:59
Well, Vince, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Vince Brescia 27:08
I did have a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me. This was great.
Rebecca Schwartz 27:13
I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of ThinkEnergy podcast. If so, please head over to iTunes and give us a review and subscribe.
Dan Seguin 27:21
And for show notes and bonus content visit ThinkEnergy.ca. Also, be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about us.
Rebecca Schwartz 27:30
Thank you for listening.
Storm season is truly any season. And during a global pandemic, as we've become more dependent on an uninterrupted supply of electricity (so we can work and learn from home), the consequences of storm-related power outages have been heightened. So here's today's big question: How are utilities facing the eye of the storm? What's involved during these critical times to keep the system and people protected from outages? To answer these questions today, we have the Director of System Operations & Grid Automation, who leads all restoration efforts for Hydro Ottawa: Joseph Muglia.
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Related Content & Links:
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey everyone, I'm Dan Seguin.
Rebecca Schwartz 00:04
And I'm Rebecca Schwartz, both from hydro Ottawa.
Dan Seguin 00:07
And we'll be hosting the ThinkEnergy podcast. So are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Every two weeks, Rebecca and I will be taking you on a tour and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations within the energy sector
Rebecca Schwartz 00:26
We'll be engaging in great conversations with game changers, thought leaders and industry leaders who welcome the opportunity to share their expertise and views with you, our listeners.
Dan Seguin 00:37
So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. I'm Dan Seguin. We're going to do things a bit differently today. Instead of our regularly scheduled program, I'd like to introduce my new co-host, hydro Ottawa's very own social media guru, and content and communications planning officer. Rebecca Schwartz.
Rebecca Schwartz 01:12
Hi, Dan. Hi, everyone.
Dan Seguin 01:14
Rebecca, welcome to your first episode. As a co host of the think energy podcast. Maybe you can introduce yourself to our audience, and what drew you to the energy sector?
Rebecca Schwartz 01:26
Thanks, Dan. I'm super excited to be joining the ThinkEnergy podcast for my first podcast ever. as Dan said, I manage hydro Ottawa as social media platforms. But what a nice change to be able to talk to you all in a little bit more of a personal way today. What drew me to the energy sector has to be the fact that everyone uses energy. It's meaningful to work in a sector that influences everyone in such a powerful way. Pun intended. When the lights go out, I'm reminded of just how connected we all are sharing the same grid and enduring outages together. It makes me feel like I'm part of something big, especially when I can communicate important updates to customers during these times. In general, though, with increasing environmental concerns and plenty of innovative technologies being developed, it's an exciting time for the energy sector. It keeps my job interesting and challenging.
Dan Seguin 02:18
Rebecca and I are going to co host episodes going forward. Think of dynamic duos like Laurel and Hardy. Fred and ginger Mulder and Scully.
Rebecca Schwartz 02:31
Ummm I don't know any of those people.
Dan Seguin 02:33
Okay, how about Jay Z and Beyonce, Mary Kate and Ashley, Brock and Michelle? Ah,
Rebecca Schwartz 02:40
yes. Okay. I promise to brush up on my Dynamic Duo history.
Dan Seguin 02:45
The title of this week's episode is "the eye of the storm", Rebecca. I don't know if it's just me. But it seems like every season is storm season. Nowadays, in Ottawa, we've had more than our fair share of winter ice storms, spring floods, and in the fall of 2018 tornadoes.
Rebecca Schwartz 03:04
Well, warm weather and summer sunshine tend to give us a false sense of security from power outages. But the truth is summer storms are a consistent threat, thanks to extreme heat and humidity, particularly when that combination manifests into dangerous heat waves, lightning, strong winds, hail and thunderstorms. Mother Nature doesn't seem to differentiate anymore between when storm season begins and ends anymore. It's like she's thrown up her hands justifiably annoyed with us about climate change, which means utilities must always be prepared for any extreme weather event no matter the time of year.
Dan Seguin 03:43
storm season is truly any season. And during a global pandemic, as we've become more dependent on an uninterrupted supply of electricity so we can work and learn from home, the consequences of storm related power outages has been heightened. So here's today's big question. How are utilities facing the eye of the storm? What's involved during these critical times to keep the system and people protected from outages?
Rebecca Schwartz 04:15
To answer these questions today, I have director of system operations and grid automation, who leads all restoration efforts for the capitals utility. Hydro Ottawa's Joseph Muglia.
Dan Seguin 04:29
Hey, welcome, Joseph. It's great to speak to you again. I think a lot of people want to know what it takes to keep the lights on for a city like Ottawa. Given your role, I'm assuming you've been in the office and in the field throughout the pandemic. Can you tell us a bit about what the director of systems operations and grid automation does?
Joseph Muglia 04:53
Thanks for having me, Dan. So first of all, my role is really comprised of three different groups within the within the company with, I would say four areas of responsibility. So starting off, like, in my team, I've got the substation group, which takes power from our provincial supplier and basically helps to distribute that power across the city through the wires and things but, but the substations are the main points where the power is coming from into our different communities. The second very important group within my team is system operations and system office. So system office really is, I would say, the control group. So they're taking the power that comes from the substations and, and distributing it properly across the city through the lines. So basically, they have the control of like limiting power, they can shut power off in certain areas, if we have to work on wires, they're doing that control of the flow of electrons throughout the system. So in an emergency, they can do isolation so that our crews can work safely. If there's any sort of power outage that's required, like a planned power outage, they can do that, so that we can work safely and upgrade our equipment. So that's really the role of system office, system office and system operations. They're also part of system operations is also our 24/7, and emergency response as well as our field ops. So they're really monitoring the system on a 24 hour, seven day a week basis. So if there's any issues that go on at nighttime, while people are sleeping, if there's a storm that hits during the day, or at night, or on the weekends, it's our 24/7, and our field operators that are responding to those calls. Initially, especially now if the call gets more involved, we we usually bring in additional forces, but it's really the 24/7 folks that are out responding. And finally, the third part of of my team is the metering group. So really, they're they're the folks that are distributing the power to our individual customers, every single customer in the in our service territory is involved with the metering group. So whether it's commercial, industrial, institutional, doesn't matter. Our metering group are the ones that that interface with our customers.
Rebecca Schwartz 07:25
So Joseph, let's talk about the pandemic that shall not be named, shall we? Sorry, huge Harry Potter fan here. So what kinds of things have you and your team been doing to keep power flowing through homes and businesses during the pandemic? Was there more stress knowing just how much more people relied on it to stay connected?
Joseph Muglia 07:45
So that's a good question. So, you know, typically, pre pandemic, we know where work centers are, we know where the offices are, throughout the city. And, and so we can sort of focus our efforts to make sure that those areas that are, you know, largely populated with folks that are working, that power is not interrupted as much as possible. The problem with the pandemic was that the entire city became work centers. So all of the homes became work centers, in addition to a lot of the work centers that already existed. So now what happened was, the emphasis went to keeping everybody connected as much as possible all the time. Because now you're not just affecting the offices of Hydro Ottawa, but you're affecting the offices of Hydro Ottawa, throughout the entire city, where everybody is basically living. And that's true for all the businesses so, so this caused us to put more emphasis on our infrastructure, make sure that our infrastructure is kept up, you know, maintenance wise to make sure that we're limiting our outages, for instance, to I think we limited them to two hours maximum. And that creates like a cost and a logistics issue for sure for us, right? Because we're not taking advantage of a full day anymore, or like in a residential area where we would be doing upgrades for instance, where we could take the power out through system office, as I mentioned earlier, we can take that power out for six or eight hours now. It was you know, truncated down to just a couple of hours. So, that becomes very difficult to to make sure that our crews are working as efficiently as they can. But it was it was very limiting for us from a from a construction perspective. So, yeah, definitely more pressure again on the focus of our assets and the focus of our our construction crews may Making sure that they're staying busy and doingas effective work as possible throughout the day,
Dan Seguin 10:05
It seems like storm season is every season now, what kind of emergency preparedness planning or training goes on, in order to be crisis ready for any storm?
Joseph Muglia 10:17
At hydro Ottawa, we regularly keep our folks up to date with all of the training required on a day to day basis for their jobs. In addition, storm preparation involves more like training on, I guess, tabletop exercises and mocking different disasters that could potentially happen. So we've introduced that into our training as well, which we're putting a lot more of our folks through that training now. Because some things that were that have been identified to us was that we've got this core group of people that are well trained in that, but we need to expand that team so that we've got additional resources in you know, that can that can respond to different emergencies. So we're working on a training schedule now thatwill encompass the entire year, that will, at regular intervals, train different folks across the organization to be able to respond to these types of things. In addition to that, also at the contractor and the supplier level, we have to maintain good relationships with them, and relationships that we wouldn't normally have in the past, or we may not have had in the past. So we've got better, I think, better relationships, working relationships with folks that can deliver us materials or provide assistance, whether it's mutual aid assistance, or contracted forces that can come in and help us in the event that we need the help. Like if we've been hit with a big emergency or a big incident across the city where we've got more work to do than our crews can handle. For instance,
Rebecca Schwartz 12:06
Working for Hydro Ottawa's social media team, I know just how important communication is, from sharing our storm readiness to providing information when an outage happens, it's caused status and Restoration Times. So Joseph, what goes into establishing accurate Restoration Times? Is it based on historical data?
Joseph Muglia 12:27
So Restoration Times are a very difficult thing. And I don't care what utility you're involved with. But restoration time is really one of those things that continues to be a challenge year after year. Initially, when we see an issue on a feeder or a conductor somewhere, the initial restoration time is generated through historical data that we would have. And that data is based on what we think the issue might be. And again, it's from our system office folks that will see you know, a particular type of issue that they're seeing on the system and the historical data will give an approximate time of restoration. Now, nothing beats a field visit, right? So that initial restoration time will be generated automatically. And then, in the meantime, we've got crews that are dispatched and are on the way to whatever the issue is in the field, once they get there, they're able to better assess what's involved. So when they get there, it might be completely different than what you know, our historical data was telling us or what system office was seeing in the field. And so the field crews are then able to better approximate what the restoration time will be. And then as the restoration is proceeding, there could be other factors that are that come into it and affect restoration time again, and which is sometimes why you see a restoration time getting shorter or longer because it you know, there might be other equipment in the field that we didn't initially know was going to be included. And ends up being included in the restoration as well. So it's a very tricky art, I would say not much of a science. It's more of an art.
Dan Seguin 14:24
Joseph, you've done some videos for us. And most recently you did one about our outage map. How is the map valuable and what other service offerings might be coming down the wire?
Joseph Muglia 14:37
Yeah, so first of all the outage map is is definitely an excellent tool. I think it keeps our our customers and our communities up to speed on what's going on when there is an outage. And so it's it's an extremely valuable tool for people to use to to make sure that you know they're they're being kept up to date. with what's happening with a particular outage going on in their area. In addition, now, you mentioned the battery programs. So this is something new that we started just in the past year, where if there's an extended planned outage that we're looking at it for a certain neighborhood, we're able to actually lend out some chargeable batteries. It's sort of a unit that has a number of different plugs that are involved in receptacles, and things where people can, for a period of time have some power available to them, you know, while their power is out, and while we're working on the equipment that supplies their home, so I think it's a great opportunity for folks to take advantage of that. We're still working some of the details behind it. But it's been it's been a great success. So far, we've had nothing but fantastic feedback on that program. So basically, if we know there's an outage in your area, we will offer you a battery. And people can keep their electronics and certain other things charged while their power is out. So I think that's, that's very innovative and very forward thinking. SMS. So we've got, we've got text to your phone right now, during a planned outage, we can let you know, through text messaging that there will be a plan power outage, you know, in your in your neighborhood. So that's also been working well. And we're also working toward, although we're not there yet, but more text messaging and notifications in the event of an unplanned outage as well. So I think that's probably something that people are dying to have. And I know there's a lot of work in the background, believe it or not to get it there. But we are working on that that's on our roadmap. And we're looking at having that available to our customers soon. So stay tuned for that.
Rebecca Schwartz 17:02
When an outage happens, can you tell us how and why people should report it and what happens after they do?
Joseph Muglia 17:10
So reporting an outage is extremely important, not just for the individual to let us know that we know there's a power outage. So like sometimes the power, if someone experiences a power outage, it could be their own equipment, it could be a broader issue, you know, on their street, or it could be their their whole subdivision, for instance, or the area. So it's important to let us know as soon as possible, I would say 80 or 90% of the time, we know when people are calling in that there's a power outage. But again, if it's a localized thing, and it's just their particular address, or just their street, it may take us a bit more time. before we're aware of that. So any call that comes in, we begin to build like a grid to so that we know like okay, we've got a call here we've got a call in that area. And it starts to build a bigger picture. And it helps us to determine what's going on. Right. So very important that people are calling in. It's important again, for the customer, it's important for their neighbors as well, right. And it's important for us, because it helps us get on the situation as quickly as possible. People can call through the website, hydroottawa.com they can go through Facebook, they can call our outage hotline at 613-738-0188. Certainly any of those avenues, the information will get to us and we can start processing and figuring out what the issue is so that we can look to restoration.
Dan Seguin 18:49
I'm going to knock on wood right now. But say a major summer storm hits the city, causing mass blackouts. How do you decide who gets restored first and why?
Joseph Muglia 19:02
So from an institutional perspective, like it's great to get the hospitals on the big government offices on as quickly as possible. After that, and I mean, the hospitals generally have generator backups. So that's been less of a concern than perhaps in the past. But I know there are some big grocery chains also that have battery have generation of backup generation. So that's awesome as well. But really, what we look at is trying to determine, you know, where we can get the biggest bang for our buck. So what what can we do from a system office perspective in conjunction with what's going on in the field to bring up as as many customers as possible, as long as it's being done safely. Right. So so we'll look to to see across the board, what makes the most sense to get As many customers as possible up, then from there, once we get the bigger pockets resolved and their backup, then we start working our way to the smaller and smaller areas. There are times when we have to actually increase the size of an outage in order to resolve it. That happens once in a while as well. And sometimes people will experience their power come back, and then they'll lose power for a period of time again, because we've had to isolate different areas in order to do a fix so that we can bring up the entire area. So that's, you know, that's often what happens. And I know people probably don't understand that. But I think it's an important point to bring up because sometimes you may experience another shorter outage after your power has been restored. And that's because we've had to do that in order to bring up the you know, the, the bigger section that might have been out.
Rebecca Schwartz 21:03
So Joseph, tell us what's been the biggest crisis or emergency that you've experienced in your role? And what did you learn from it?
Joseph Muglia 21:12
There's really been two in my career, I think, while it's been more than that, but two that stick out in my head. And that is, prior to having this role. I was in Alberta. And in 2013, we had flooding in Alberta, that was that blew my mind, to the point where the South Saskatchewan River was flowing through the city I was living in, and the water level was about a foot or two away from the banks of the bridge, that would have basically separate the city in two halves for a number of months. So that was that blew my mind. The second one was in 2018, the tornadoes here in Ottawa, which was I know, like we talked about it, probably less now, but that's still, you know, very, very much burned in my, in my mind, what we went through through those tornadoes. I may sound a bit cliche here, but I think that teamwork perspective, is probably the thing that I learned the most out of both of those issues, and not just teamwork for the folks on the ground that were actually doing the work that needed to be done the restoration. And I think, you know, largely about the restoration that went on here in the city during the tornadoes, but really like from from the perspective of our crisis communication team, our communication, you know, the basically the team that you folks are are involved with, that was hugely important to get the messaging out properly and clearly and efficiently. All of the management staff that went into the coordination and the logistics of getting materials to us of keeping you know, the the crews busy the fleet perspective of that restoration, just keeping the vehicles running, all while we had like power outages going on all over the place. We also had dips in our communication, like, we started to lose cell phones, I remember early on in the tornadoes as well. So for our IT department that posed challenges for them, but we were able to, through crisis, I think come together quickly. And and really focus on what needed to be focused on and leave sort of, you know, the the external stuff out of it. I think the most important thing is preparation ahead of time before something like that to hit again. And that's why I talked earlier about tabletop exercises and and mock disasters and going through like what the logistics look like because it's true, like as soon as you have a plan, the first casualty is the plan. Right? So if you don't know it, intuitively, you're gonna forget what the plan is. And then people scramble, right? They just naturally scramble. So the more and I know we were doing it in Alberta, too, is like the more of that training you can do up front to get people thinking about it and what's involved, the cleaner the restoration becomes. So that's probably been my biggest takeaway.
Dan Seguin 24:44
I've been learning that it takes a village to tackle major storms. Can you talk about the human side of your work? Who are the people and what are their roles in a crisis?
Joseph Muglia 24:56
There's so so many people like if I if I think about it, the frontlines, it's our 24/7 folks, it's our field operators that are the first response. Moving moving away from that, then we've got our on call, folks. So there are daily crews that go through a rotational process where if we're met with an incident during the night or on a weekend or something, there are crews that we have standing by so that they can assist with 24/7 and a bigger restoration. They are our biggest frontline defense, I think between, you know, acts of nature and keeping our folks connected. Right. So, but, and and those folks are extremely important. And, you know, God bless them, because they are there for us when we need them. And it doesn't matter the weather, it doesn't matter, you know what going on out there. They're, they're there, and they do it. But I think we also need to mention the folks that are in the office and are in our like directing stuff from the office, right. So there's our field supervisors and, and like our folks that are involved, again, with fleet, with procurement, with so many different things with finance, even our engineering and our tech folks, our GIS folks like all of them. So incredibly important when we're faced with an issue, because we need just about all of the, you know, the expertise and all of those different groups to help us sort out how we restore, particularly if we've got infrastructure that's on the ground. We need our design, folks, we need our engineering folks and our standards folks to help us, like figure out how we can best restore this in the quickest amount of time safely, so that our folks can experience you know, what they experience every day. And that's almost completely uninterrupted power, right. So, the entire team, I can't really chunk it down any more than that. And I can't say that any group is probably more important than the other because, like you said, it takes a village, right. And it really does during an incident,
Rebecca Schwartz 27:25
What new developments or innovations are exciting you about your job, or the industry in general right now?
Joseph Muglia 27:32
Early on, I mentioned my group, it can comprise of three different areas, the stations, the system operations and metering. But I didn't mention early on and I didn't get into it. The fourth piece of the fourth piece of my existence really is the automation. And so we're going through a really exciting time, as far as I'm concerned, in the electric industry, where we're we're looking at more automation in our system, building automation into the system so that we can restore power a lot faster, we can restore power remotely, rather than have, you know a crew being dispatched and going into the field. So a lot more automation within our system operations groups and groups so that more switches and more devices can be controlled within the system office rather than in the field. With automation, we can also reroute power automatically. So the system can sense a conductor or a piece of like a piece of a feeder that's out. And it can reroute power in a different area so that that restoration can happen instead of hours, it can happen in seconds. Now we're quite a ways away from that. But that's some of the stuff that we're we're moving toward. More devices in the field that will give us data that that we'll be able to use that data to make better investment choices, for instance, or, or better decisions for our customers, or having that data so that we can give that data to our customers and they can make the decisions that they want to make right. With a more automated grid, we can also introduce a lot more DERS or distributed electric resources. So more solar more wind, different ways of introducing electricity into the grid so that it helps us It helps us with reliability with with just you know volume of electricity in the future that's going to be required, right for EVs, like the introduction of EVs and the sustainment of more EV's in our system. An automated grid will help us do all of that and more right, including battery storage and things like that. So it really brings us to the next level. And the problem is that traditionally, an electric utility has been a bit more conservative like, we don't necessarily introduce a lot of technology early on, because we're needed as a very reliable source of energy. Right. And so we can't play around with too much technology until it's proven out. But we're getting to a point now where we see so much on the horizon that's available that the electric grid can can offer our customers and even other other LDCs other electric distributors, you know, there's so much that we can be doing with what we've got already. And with the introduction of a little bit more technology in the field. So I think that's by far in this industry, probably the most exciting.
Dan Seguin 30:57
Okay, now, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Joseph Muglia 31:03
Okay
Dan Seguin 31:04
Joseph, what is your favorite word?
Joseph Muglia 31:08
My favorite word? I probably say, passion.
Dan Seguin 31:13
What is the one thing you can't live without?
Joseph Muglia 31:17
Probably my espresso machine.
Dan Seguin 31:20
Okay. What is something that challenges you?
Joseph Muglia 31:24
Probably the ongoing fight for my focus, right? So with like, an ever changing world there, there is like so much coming at us. And it seems like there's so many distractions to what you want to focus on. And I think that's, that's probably the biggest challenge for me is trying to stay focused on certain things when you're being bombarded.
Dan Seguin 31:47
Here's a good one. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Joseph Muglia 31:52
I would say, if I could look into the future by about 15 minutes or so that would be the power, right? That would be awesome.
Dan Seguin 32:01
Okay, you've got word of a massive thunderstorm approaching Ottawa in the next few minutes. What's the first thing you do?
Joseph Muglia 32:09
So the first call would be to our field supervisors to hold crews back to make sure that people are not leaving too early at the end of the day and out of the parking lot too quickly because we're probably going to need them. I would say that's probably my first phone call my first thing that I'm going to do.
Dan Seguin 32:29
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector,
Joseph Muglia 32:35
most interesting in my sector, I would say the human element of it all, is probably the most, the most challenging and the most rewarding. And I saw that a lot, particularly through the pandemic and all of the changes that the pandemic brought. My team was, was largely, you know, they continued to work. They weren't put on any, any sort of rotation or anything. And, and so some of the challenges that that created was, I think it was it was very interesting that again, the human element of work is, I think, the most rewarding and the most challenging.
Dan Seguin 33:21
Well, Joseph, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Again, thank you for joining us today. And Rebecca, I hope you had a lot of fun.
Rebecca Schwartz 33:32
I did. Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 33:33
Rebecca, and I will be co-hosting going forward in 2021. Thanks for joining us. And Rebecca, Do you really not know who Mulder and Scully are?
Rebecca Schwartz 33:44
Are they superheroes?
Dan Seguin 33:46
Oh god. See ya folks!
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #41:
Does energy storage hold great potential for a Canada in which wind and solar power could dominate new power plant additions and gradually overtake other sources of electricity? How can energy storage make up for the current limitations of renewables? Find out if energy storage, particularly electricity storage, is the missing piece in the renewables jigsaw as Justin Rangooni, Executive director of Energy Storage Canada, shares his perspective.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:42
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. If you're following energy trends around the world, you've likely heard about energy storage. It's a big topic, and there's a lot to unpack. While there are many types of systems to store energy, I think it's easiest to think of energy storage as the battery that you use to capture energy when it's produced, so you can use it at another time, perhaps when energy isn't available, like during a power outage. With renewable energy continuing to grow in Canada, where does energy storage fit? You have to wonder if energy storage will become the new power plants of the future. One thing is certain energy storage will play an important role in the future supply mix for electricity, most obviously, in creating a more flexible and reliable grid system. For example, when there is more supply than demand, such as during the night when energy costs are lower and power plants continue to operate, the surplus electricity generation can be sent to power energy storage systems, instead of being sold at a loss or going to waste. While wind and solar are great. They can only produce energy at a certain time. This reality has been a barrier for mass integration into modern electricity grids. Since the constant availability of reliable power is paramount to the country and our economy, a complimentary technology like energy storage could help fill the gap for managing today's renewables. Synergies between wind energy, solar energy and energy storage also mean that these technologies can provide a broader range of services to the grid when used in a coordinated manner that reduce overall electricity systems costs, such as building new and expensive generating plants. But at what scale are we at for energy storage today? And where is it headed in the near future? Is there a strategy and evidence that energy storage is a solution we're looking for? In short, where is Canada at on the energy storage journey to adoption? This leads me to today's big question: is energy storage the missing piece in the renewables jigsaw puzzle? And the solution for Canada's energy needs? Joining me today is a very special guest. Justin Rangooni, the executive director at energy storage Canada, who's here to help us unbox the energy storage mystery. Justin, welcome to the ThinkEnergy podcast. Justin, can you tell us a bit about yourself? What energy storage is and what your organization Energy Storage Canada does what it's all about?
Justin Rangooni 04:04
Of course, Daniel, and thanks for having me on the chat. Always glad to chat with you and see our friends at Hydro Ottawa. Again, well, Energy Storage Canada is the National voice for energy storage. We are the only Association dedicated to advancing energy storage in the country. We have over 60 members from across the energy storage value chain from the biggest global companies to the most innovative startups. And we develop policy positions, advocate and educate decision makers and host educational and networking opportunities through webinars and our annual conference. We're basically energy storage 24 / 7, 365 days a year.
Dan Seguin 04:43
Cool. Okay, at a high level, what are we talking about in terms of large scale or grid scale energy storage? What sizes are available? How long can the energy be stored for and is the goal to power cities for days or weeks?
Justin Rangooni 05:02
Not a good question again, what makes energy storage so unique is the varying degrees of sizes, capabilities and technologies. In terms of larger grid scale, you know, we're talking about projects in the hundreds up to 1000 megawatts. But energy storage projects can be in the kilowatts as well, it all depends on the project and where it's located. And depending on the discharge rate of how much energy is injected back into the grid, it could be a couple hours or even more, again, all depends on the technology and the capabilities. And the goal for the sector is really to optimize generation, optimize distribution and transmission assets, provide the grid with reliable service and support the goal of affordability for all ratepayers.
Dan Seguin 05:45
Okay, Tesla made a splash back in 2015, with its announcement of the power wall system, essentially small scale energy storage for homes, has there been any movement in this area?
Justin Rangooni 06:00
So that is definitely the wave of the future as customers demand more choice and control of their energy needs. So small scale energy storage for homes will be getting there, especially as you see increased prevalence of electric vehicles and rooftop solar systems, residential storage systems, you know, as using the EV battery itself, and in hibernating with the source solar system would be in lockstep. What you're seeing a lot now in Ontario is behind the meter storage devices for large industrial customers, which are helping manage their consumption. So it's getting there. But right now, it's not quite but we are getting there into the small scale.
Dan Seguin 06:41
Okay. Justin, can you explain what the clean energy goals are for the energy storage sector? What types of policies at the municipal provincial federal level need to be in place to succeed?
Justin Rangooni 06:57
Sure, so our clean energy goals are to optimize cleaner sources of generation and to help with the energy transition are such talking really, a lot of other provinces are still relying on coal especially, and planning the transition away. So what we say is that we can optimize your existing cleaner assets, variable generation or otherwise, by having storage within the system. So you may you do not necessarily need to build new, dirtier forms of generation, you can use energy storage, to twin with your cleaner sources actually have. And in terms to do that, we're talking about removal of barriers, market opportunities, and just the general sense that energy storage resources are a mainstream tool for system operators to use.
Dan Seguin 07:44
Moving on to the question, Justin, on how can Canada unlock the potential of the energy storage?
Justin Rangooni 07:54
And that is the key question. And it was the focus of our annual conference recently. And in fact, it was the title of a valuation study we did for Ontario that we released this summer, which concluded that if the province had at least 1000 megawatts of energy storage enabled in the province, over the next decade, ratepayers would enjoy a net savings of over $2 billion. And to unlock that potential, again, it comes down to the removal of regulatory barriers, to fully enable energy storage, and its value offerings, and the creation of market opportunities. And again, for system operators to start to see things a little differently, see energy storage as a tool to be used. And that can be applied to the distribution side as well, that instead of traditional poles and wires, or traditional generation sources that you look at energy storage, which is a bit of a jack of all trades, or a Swiss Army knife to provide various service offerings for you. And so it's starting to see things a little differently with energy storage index.
Dan Seguin 08:56
Now, the Canadian government recently announced a $10 billion infrastructure investment plan and specifically mentioned it would support both renewable and energy storage. What are your thoughts on the government plans?
Justin Rangooni 09:16
So we were very supportive of that we're supportive of anything that comes from the federal government in terms of helping with the economics of energy storage projects or helping facilitate energy storage projects across the country. So with the announcement from the Canada's infrastructure bank, which is about a $2.5 billion funding initiative, we are very supportive and we look forward to working with the CIV on details. And we're looking forward to an upcoming federal budget which we hope will include even more funding opportunities, grants, and other types of programs for our energy storage going forward.
Dan Seguin 09:51
Okay, what has been the impact of the pandemic on energy on the energy storage industry?
Justin Rangooni 10:00
Well as with everything in every sector, it's the uncertainty that it has caused with what decisions can be made by the government decision makers that could have unintended consequences. For instance, in Ontario, their decision earlier this year to place a hiatus on the ICI program, the industrial conservation initiative, we have what it calls an unintended consequence of the decision because I put a lot of projects that were about to be built behind the meter on hold. So we understand what, you know, the challenges the government is facing to make decisions around the pandemic. We just hope that I think it's just it's stressed the importance of communication to understand how everybody could be affected by those decisions. So we are working with the government to ensure that no, we're here talk to us, we're here to help. Let's try to find a nice path forward to help with the economic recovery coming out of this pandemic, hopefully, in a not so distant future.
Dan Seguin 10:57
Okay. Do you see the development and scaling of energy storage solution being imperative to successful transformation of the energy sector and the electricity grid? If so, how do you see energy storage accelerating in the years to come?
Justin Rangooni 11:19
I think it's the latter question that is really key. Because we're seeing energy storage accelerating throughout the energy system across Canada. And we're talking about from residential use electric vehicles use as a battery to the continued use of behind the meter for large for large customers, more hybrid projects to better optimize current assets to transmission and distribution, deferral. So we're really looking at the entire gamut for energy storage is role to be played. And it really again depends on those market opportunities and removing barriers to really unlock energy storage's potential.
Dan Seguin 11:52
Given the grid expertise of utilities, what role will they play in the energy storage field?
Justin Rangooni 12:00
So we see that as the role being absolutely critical, as utility or utility members that we have ourselves we view they view energy storage as an essential tool as part of their system planning. And we believe all distributors and all utilities across the country will do as well. And we expect to see the only enhancement of energy storage resources as a tool as an alternative to traditional poles and wires for utilities, which can better optimize utilities, investments in their poles and wires, and help with ratepayers affordability issues as well, by using storage, which is a cheaper alternative, in many cases to just building the status quo.
Dan Seguin 12:40
Okay, Justin, it's now time to pull up your crystal ball with plans to further electrify public transportation and promote urban intensification, do you think that utilities are likely to account for a large share of battery energy storage in Canada?
Justin Rangooni 12:58
So I'll get the crystal ball. I think the use of energy storage resources and the distribution level is inevitable. And that's a good thing. So I think we'll be seeing utilities utilizing energy storage resources in front and behind the meter in much greater share than they are doing now. I think with the removal of regulatory barriers, and just a more general sense that seeing energy storage as a tool for utilities to use, I think we're going to see a lot greater share. And that's a really good thing for the utilities, ratepayers and the system as a whole.
Dan Seguin 13:32
Now, the next question is a mouthful, the economic value of energy storage is closely tied to other major trends impacting today's Power System, most notably the increasing penetration of wind and solar generation. How does battery storage help make better use of electricity system assets? Can it defer or even eliminate unnecessary investments in capital intensive assets, like building new and expensive generating plants to meet our country's forecasted energy needs?
Justin Rangooni 14:08
So yeah, that was a mouthful. And I think the response is really short. I think, yes, it can. And it's one of the major value propositions of energy storage. Depending on the business case, and again, the technology you're using beyond just batteries, because energy storage could be compressed air facilities could be flywheels, pumped storage, and thermal storage. There are many different technologies available. And depending on the business case being used, you could see it as a deferment, or in place of building traditional generation, or, the deferment of just building traditional poles and wires, for instance, it all depends on the business case, but again, because it's a tool, that's what we're trying to say is have that as a tool so you can see if it is the better alternative.
Dan Seguin 14:56
Now, are you ready to close us off with some rest rapid fire questions.
Justin Rangooni 15:01
Of course! Those are my favorite.
Dan Seguin 15:04
Okay, well, what is your favorite word?
Justin Rangooni 15:08
Cookies
Dan Seguin 15:10
Okay, what is the one thing you can't live without?
Justin Rangooni 15:15
Cookies?
Dan Seguin 15:18
Okay, what habit or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter-in-place?
Justin Rangooni 15:25
Well, it would be cutting my own hair and cutting my son's hair. Okay, I thought you were going to say baking cookies. Oh, baking cookies. There you go. Okay.
Dan Seguin 15:36
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Justin Rangooni 15:40
Oh, I would say flying, we can skip the airport lines. That would be the best.
Dan Seguin 15:45
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self. What would you tell him?
Justin Rangooni 15:52
Well, I would say get your sleep in now. Because with three kids that is definitely in short supply.
Dan Seguin 16:00
Good, good one. And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Justin Rangooni 16:08
Well, I think the most interesting thing is the endless opportunities for innovation and creativity. Energy Storage being a tool that can be used by utilities like customers by the system operators. The possibilities are endless with energy storage. That's what makes the sector so exciting.
Dan Seguin 16:28
Well, Justin, we've reached the end of another episode, I think energy podcasts. Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you and energy storage Canada? How can they connect?
Justin Rangooni 16:43
That is the best question of the day. They can look at our website at energystoragecanada.org all the information is there of who we are what we do. Joining up for memberships Of course, you can see our all our publications and our submissions. All the and there's a lot of great information up there. So check out energystoragecanada.org.
Dan Seguin 17:05
Cool. Again, thank you for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Justin Rangooni 17:09
Sure did, Daniel. Thanks so much for the opportunity.
Dan Seguin 17:14
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #38:
Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant source of clean and renewable electricity. In fact, because of this, Canada is the second largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world. So, what’s next for Canada’s waterpower industry? Is there untapped potential? What are the plans for growth nationally and what influence does it have on the world stage? Our special guest, Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada, helps us demystify the water industry.
Related Content & Links:
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast, one of Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station was commissioned right here in the nation's capital in 1891. Located in the heart of downtown Ottawa, is a stone throws away from the parliament building. Chaudière Falls is still providing clean and renewable electricity today, nearly 130 years after it went into service. While hydroelectricity first powered our great country, it was fossil fuel that became the dominant energy source of the 20th century. But it seems that what was old is new again. And cleaner electricity is making a comeback in a big way. I'm convinced it will be the energy source that powers the 21st century. Because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that water power is Canada's most abundant source of clean, and renewable electricity. It provides more than 60% of our country's total electricity, with an installed capacity soon exceeding 85,000 megawatts. As such, Canada is the second largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world after China. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gases that cause climate change, we must strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and increase the amount of electricity we produce from non-emitting and renewable energy resources. Hydroelectricity produces no air pollution, and has ultra-low greenhouse gas emissions, especially for those stations that are run of the river. From a full lifecycle assessment basis, Canada's hydro power is amongst the lowest emitting resources available and like Chaudière falls proves hydro power assets can last well over 100 years if properly maintained, making them very cost effective long term investments. Canada is already a leader in hydro power generation, but it has a potential to more than double its current capacity, thanks to its abundant, untapped water power resource. Contrary to popular opinion, Canadian hydro power is cost competitive, which helps keep rates low for customers. In fact, provinces with the highest hydro power installed capacity tend to have the lowest electricity costs. So here's today's big question: What's next for Canada's water power industry? What are the plans for growth nationally? And what influence does it have on the world stage? Our special guest today will help demystify the water industry: Waterpower Canada's president and CEO, Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, what drew you to your current role, and how you became an advocate for renewable energy, particularly waterpower.
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 04:04
I think what really brought me to waterpower is a mixed bag of training and experiences. I specialized in environmental law at school. So my passion has always been sustainability and environmental protection. And after graduating, I had the opportunity to work for justice for a bit mostly focusing on mining projects. But that kind of took me to the next you know, job which was to work for Hatch, an international engineering firm, where I worked on international project projects across the world as an environmental and social impact management specialist. So that's where I got my hands dirty in terms of really seeing how projects are done from start to finish the whole pre-feasibility to commissioning. So that was very, very good, a great experience over about four years. And then I kind of switched a little bit - wanting to have a broader approach to sustainability. So not just look at projects, but also look at corporate sustainability. How do you integrate that thinking into your processes, the way you work with your employees? And also how do you continue to obviously implement the best procedures on projects. And so I looked at other opportunities. And I was then hired by what was then called the Canadian Hydropower Association, which we rebranded about two years ago as Waterpower Canada. So that was my first real exposure to the water power industry. Now, about seven years ago, I'd say, which, you know, time flies, as they say, but it's been a great experience, because it really allowed me to bring my legal experience and my passion for sustainability in my role as an advocate for renewable energy.
Dan Seguin 06:01
What is the mission of Waterpower Canada? And what kind of initiatives is it pursuing to advance and support hydro power, nationally, and even internationally,
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 06:13
So we are a national trade association. So our mission as an organization is really to promote and actively advocate for hydropower. That means, you know, promoting the existing assets, the existing fleet, promoting the attributes, what it does for Canadians what it does for the country in general, and also promoting future developments, be it sometimes reinvestment in the fleet through refurbishment redevelopments, or, of course, as well, Greenfield, Greenfield projects. So nationally that's really our focus is to bring awareness, I always say my job is 50%, government relations, 50% communications, and they tend to marry in the sense that you're always communicating in this field, right, you're always trying to bring more knowledge and more awareness about your sector, no matter who you're talking to. But you aim it a different way, depending on kind of where you focus, what you focus on. And then internationally, we definitely focus more and more on, on working with the US in terms of leveraging the clean exports of hydro power to the US. It's not a new thing. You know, it's been ongoing for decades. And it's been a huge source of wealth for Canada and for certain provinces in particular. But it is something that we see as an opportunity in the future because the US has a pretty emission intensive electricity sector. And they're looking at decarbonizing similar to us, right, but they don't have necessarily all the attributes ready to go that that we can offer in Canada, and we are very connected north-south. So it is it is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in the sense of being able to send us clean electrons across the border, without too many too many hurdles. So we were also kind of deploying that kind of efforts internationally.
Dan Seguin 08:15
In Canada, we know about the environmental benefits of hydro power, in terms of renewable energy, cleaner air, and less pollution, overall, perhaps less known lies under the surface, and the impact of these facilities, particularly turbines can have on fish and other water species. Can you talk a bit about what the industry is doing to contribute to the recovery of endangered, threatened and other species at risk?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 08:47
The first thing I'll say is that our sector has been around for more than a century. So any impact that we have is very well understood, and has been very well studied. And there's been a lot of research going into avoidance or when you cannot avoid an impact, mitigation, right, which is the rule for sure. So in terms of fish habitats, in particular, I'll give you an example which is something I've learned through my career working within the water power sector. And it's quite interesting and it happens across the nation right from coast to coast to coast, but you have requirements that are set by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and also of course, by your local regulating bodies, that you know, operate at different levels. And those you know, dictate kind of the measures that you have to put in place and in many cases when you have a hydro site, runoff river or reservoir, you tend to have offsets and you know protocols or fish habitat banking is what we call and without getting into the you know the terminology of you know, that we use with an industry, but through those techniques, you actually have a great opportunity to operate a site that now has a greater fish population that what you found when you actually started with your Greenfield project, and that has been seen and studied. And there's been a lot of, you know, case studies presented on this, where, you know, different fish species actually respond very well to habitat banking. And, they're thriving, more than, you know, maybe the conditions that they were having before the hydro site was developed. So it's that that's just an example. And of course, it's a great success story, but it's not to overshadow the fact that, yes, we operate in water, we do have impacts, and there's always, and they will always be room for improvements. And so a lot of research above and beyond this protocols and, and systems that we implement. A lot of research is actually invested in making sure that the first rule is to avoid impacts, and you don't turn to mitigation right away.
Dan Seguin 11:10
When you envision the future of hydro power, what do you see? And what are some of the most exciting things that the industry is doing? Or that Waterpower Canada is spearheading?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 11:23
So, you know, with COVID-19, of course, the landscape is different now. But I'm going to put that aside, and for the only reason that we don't know what's going to happen, right, we don't know what's going to happen post COVID the ramifications how long it's going to last. So kind of crystal balling the future on this is a bit of a risky exercise. But if I if I said that crisis aside, what was really exciting, just you know, over the past few years, and what we were lining up and gearing up to, to work on was the huge wave of refurbishment and redevelopment. The average age of a hydropower facility in Canada is 50 years. And that's about the same in the US, right? Our assets are what we call generational assets. Which is great, because you can refurbish them, you know, throughout generations, and it's yours to keep for decades and decades and decades. But what it also means is that every once in a while you have to invest, and inject those capital reinvestments so that you can continue to operate your fleet. And also, you know, modernize the fleet. So that's very exciting. Because no matter what happens with the global pandemic situation, this is going to happen, I don't know if it's going to happen within the next year, or now within the next five years. But what it means is that it's going to inject billions in the Canadian economy, it's going to sustain a lot of jobs. And it's going to help us decarbonize, you know, further, we already have about an 80%, non-emitting electricity grid, thanks to Hydro and other renewables, and thanks to nuclear, but of course, there's more room for improvement. And so anything you can do to leverage your existing fleet and just pull out those clean electrons is good news in a very exciting.
Dan Seguin 13:15
What do you think is the biggest myth or misunderstanding about water power?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 13:20
You know, I, there are quite a few. So but it raises my blood pressure when I think about all of them, so I'll just focus on one. But what I what I hear often and above and beyond the lack of knowledge, generally speaking, I think it's always mind boggling to hear that people don't necessarily know or understand the role that waterpark plays in our in our generation mix. But above and beyond that, I think that the biggest misunderstanding is the fact that people really assume that hydro is an old, dusty, non-innovative technology, because we've been around for so long. And it is actually really, really incorrect because we've been around for so long because we are extremely innovative because we are extremely fine tuning research. Every corner that we take, right, and if we weren't innovative, and if we weren't investing in digitalization and new systems, we wouldn't have survived. And so I always say that the original clean tech in Canada is water power, and is the most enduring one, which is a pretty impressive fact.
Dan Seguin 14:33
The hydro power sector contributes more than $30 billion to the Canadian economy and supports a labor force 130,000 strong. What kind of growth does waterpower Canada foresee in the future?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 14:47
So just through the refurbishments and redevelopments that was talking about earlier. This is going to trigger a huge growth in the fleet because with no major new and harmful impacts with, you know, a pretty reasonable injection of funds into your fleet, you can actually get a lot more generation out of an existing site. So that's very exciting. And, it's going to trickle down in terms of economic ramifications. But what we will always kind of try and advocate for is to not let go of Greenfield hydro. And, and the exciting thing about hydro is it comes in many shapes and forms. So you don't have to just focus on large hydro reservoir, you also have run of the river of all sizes , by the way, because a lot of people assume that run off river is small hydro, but you can have 1000 megawatt, run of the river facilities, right, which is pretty big. But what's really exciting too, and we hear about more and more these days is pump storage. So we, you know, we didn't focus too much on pump storage, I think as a nation in the past, because we didn't really have to, we had so many easily developable sites run of the river, reservoir and reservoir is embedded storage, right. So it's a great way to have on demand clean electricity. But now more and more, we're looking at exciting projects that are investing in pumped storage, and its across Canada, as well, there's a project in Ontario, another one in Alberta, but pump storage is basically a closed loop hydro system where you have elevation, and you take advantage of that elevation to bring water down, and then back up depending on cost of electricity and low demand. So that you can meet peak load requirements, and also reduce your expenditure by managing that curve, in a very smart way. So it is it is very innovative. It is it is something that again has existed for many, many years. It's nothing new. But we had we haven't really invested a lot in this technology in Canada. So far, it's much more common in the US. But I see this coming more and more top of mind.
Dan Seguin 17:19
Hydro power infrastructure is designed to withstand floods, and often plays an important role in flood mitigation and management. We've learned that in Ottawa the hard way in 2017, and 2019. Has climate resilience and adapting to the impacts of climate change been front of mind, for Canada's electricity producers? Where do you see making the biggest impacts?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 17:46
So yeah, we are investing a lot in climate change research. And I'd say it should be a priority for any sector, probably in the world. So there's a lot of research going on, we are partnering with modeling agencies, like , who helped us, you know, understand, not just the impacts on the hydropower fleet, but kind of bring in external factors as well that are going to affect climate change. The difficulty and the challenge in the country that's as big as Canada is the fact that your impacts are not going to be one general, one size fits all for the sector. So you won't be able to use general categorization for your industry, you're going to have to get regions, of course. And I remember actually a few years ago, during the floods that were happening in Ontario and Quebec, my members in BC, were saying that they were actually observing low levels in their reservoirs. And so that just speaks to the fact that it's not just a small difference, you have an extreme event happening in one side of the country, and another extreme event as a drought on the other side of the country. So what that means is you have to be extremely flexible. And people have to design especially when they refurbish and when they build new sites with climate change in mind every step of the way.
Dan Seguin 19:08
You've touched on this earlier Anne-Raphaëlle, hydro power has been around for more than 100 years. What does the untapped potential in Canada look like? And what are some of the innovations within the sector that makes it even more attractive?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 19:27
Yeah. So that's one of the other misconceptions that I was alluding to earlier on a previous question. When that when I talk to Canadians and also to policymakers, sometimes they tell me Well, you know, yes, we've got a lot of hydro power in Canada, it's more than 60% of our generation. But surely, because it's so big, we must be tapped out. There must not be any more hydro to develop. And it couldn't be further from the truth. We actually have a lot of water In Canada, we've got good innovation, great sights still to develop. So our untapped potential is actually more than double our existing installed capacity. So we've got about 85,000 megawatts of current installed capacity. So you can, you can only imagine what we could do if we were to just develop a portion of the untapped technical potential. And, and the great news about that now, I always emphasize that when I when I speak at conferences, or when I have discussions with government, and stakeholders in general is to say that, that potential is not just a reality in in one province, it's a reality across the country. So when we look at decarbonizing, electrifying, all of those great things that you know are happening are going to happen, you know, over the next few years, it's just a must to look at what you could do with your hydro resources in your province or in your territory, because it's there, it exists.
Dan Seguin 21:01
Technology is enhancing digitization, and automation of hydro power plants to realize their full potential. What are some of the digital solutions around monitoring, maintenance, and service that you see the industry benefiting from either now or the near future?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 21:22
So I hear a lot about virtual reality, and also artificial intelligence in my sector. And of course, they're two different things, but they tap into that new world of technologies that can help you operate your site in a different way. I think anything that's going to allow us to have remote access to our sites, and that means from a controlling operation. Also, from a supply chain perspective - actually COVID-19 brought one positive from my perspective, which is the fact that we're leveraging tools, more and more that allow us to do remote inspection, for example, because of course, during the pandemic, we couldn't actually go to two warehouses and inspect equipment as it was coming in from China, wherever across the world, right? You had to just wait until it arrived on site. And sometimes we're talking big pieces of furniture, now just a screw and a hammer. So just having tools that really allow you to get in and take a full scope, engineering, look at your equipment, as it comes in before it is delivered is a huge progress, and those tools exists. And that was a huge discovery, I think for me, because I wasn't aware that technology was that far ahead, already ready to respond. Another example, which is always interesting, because I've toured quite a few hydro sites. And I remember at one of the oldest sites in Canada, you know, we were looking at the control room: tons of switches, you know, probably a room that could probably accommodate eight to 10 people at one time. And, and the operator was saying, well, we refurbished and now the person can actually control everything from his living room at home, and is that his laptop, because it's all integrated, and the system is talking to that control room here on site. And that's all it takes. So automation is definitely going to be needed in the future. But it doesn't mean that we won't need, you know, physical, you know, staff and people to manage, because, of course, it's still going to be a huge requirement, but it is more efficient. And that is every day that that kind of innovation happens.
Dan Seguin 23:44
You indicated earlier that waterpower in Canada provides more than 90% of our renewable power and 60% of our overall electricity supply. Canada is blessed with an abundance of untapped potential, residing both in existing sites and new developments. Any thoughts on the pros and cons of refurbishment and redevelopment opportunities versus the development of new projects?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 24:15
Yes. So I mean, it's all case specific: that's the obvious answer. And so what makes sense for a site may not make sense for another one, meaning that, you know, we've got a lot of members that are actually assessing a specific site and considering everything like from decommissioning, which is, you know, turning off the lights basically and saying, Okay, this asset has played its role and that we're going to return the site back to nature. When the economy, you know, just circumstances or environmental or just the general circumstances surrounding a specific site dictate certain decisions. So I think it's not very common that, you know, people would decide to decommission a hydro site because most of the time, even if it's just a little bit of generation, when you've had a site for 80-90 years, and you've refurbished it and maintained it over the years, it's still it's still a great provider of clean electricity. It's still a money-maker for the utility or for the independent power producer. So it's still definitely a great benefit to have within your fleet. But so I don't see any downside to refurbishment, or redevelopment. I think it's a low hanging fruit for electrification, it's something that's going to happen. It's just a question of when, and Greenfield hydro is not going anywhere. I think it's just, let's focus on what we can do first, which is refurbishment. It's the obvious thing to do and it's needed. And in a decade or two, we'll probably see another wave of investment in Greenfield hydro.
Dan Seguin 25:55
Before I forget, are you able to demystify for our listeners what Greenfield hydro is?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 26:03
Greenfield hydro means you take a site that is completely natural. So an untouched site, and you develop a hydro site. And it's a terminology that can be used for any industry, not just hydro. So you can say Greenfield mining Greenfield wind, it just means that you start with a site that hasn't been touched.
Dan Seguin 26:24
Hydro power can provide abundant low carbon energy, with its storage from reservoir and pump storage. As the only renewable form of baseload electricity, how essential is hydro power to leading Canada's transition away from fossil fuels, while maximizing environmental benefits.
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 26:46
It's not only essential, it's critical. We always say that if we didn't have what a power within our generation mix, we would be in in a terrible situation as a country, because again, 60% of our overall electricity generation is coming from that big renewable giant, which is water power. So you know, if we take a step back and consider for one second the world we live in, in Canada, without water power, it would be quite different, and it would probably be much dirtier in terms of emissions. So we start with a huge asset, and a huge advantage compared to some countries and you know, people from across the world come to Canada to actually learn about our mostly non-emitting electricity grid. How did you do it? What are the systems you put in place? What is your regulatory environment? How did you get to where you are now? But of course, it's not to say that we are perfect because we're not we've got high emission, or emission intensive sectors. Some provinces are doing better than others for historical reasons, you know, different decisions. And I think we've been blessed with an abundance of natural resources across the nation. And so we shouldn't point fingers. It's really not about that. It's just about Okay, how do we get better? How do we clean up our system? So that we move away from, you know, negative emissions and move toward electrification, which is the priority? Right, the easiest thing to do is to turn to electrifying our transportation, of course, and then buildings, and hydropower is there, you know, we just need the right, you know, economic environment, the right signals from governments, in terms of regulatory streamlining, for example, in terms of regulations that incentivize investment in hydro, and the sector will respond because we've got the resources to develop and do more to decarbonize Canada.
Dan Seguin 28:46
You've touched on this earlier, but wondering if we can explore further. Both Canada and the United States are looking for ways to reduce carbon emissions to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets. With 60% of US electricity still being generated from coal and gas powered thermal plants, is Canada's clean, renewable hydro power becoming an attractive option for Border States? How are those partnerships negotiated? Has it been an easy sell? Are those states coming to you?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 29:22
So it's as we discussed, yes, it's been something that has been done for years. So it's nothing new under the sun. But I think it's becoming more top of mind because big players like the mayor of New York, you know, for the past year has been saying, you know, we want to import a lot of clean and renewable hydro from Quebec. And he's right you know, it's a few hours north of his of his state. It's available there. There are big surpluses in Quebec it's the cheapest electricity you can buy not just in Canada - in North America. And it's a source of wealth for this province. And it's the same story in Manitoba. You know, who sends electricity to Minnesota and other states and neighboring that border on that side of the country, with new transmission lines going through the approval process in each of those jurisdictions. So I think this is definitely going to be more talked about in the future. I think it's probably rising to news headlines more and more because of politics. And depending on the political environment on either side of the border, it can be framed as a positive story, or it can be framed as a negative story, but for all intents and purposes for Canadians and for Americans, it is a great, great thing to do, because you decarbonize the system, you have a low electricity cost, and on top of everything, it's clean and renewable, so why wouldn't you do it?
Dan Seguin 30:51
How about we close off with rapid fire questions? Are you ready?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 30:55
Okay.
Dan Seguin 30:57
What is your favorite word?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 31:01
Um,you know, I'm a Francophone. But there's a word that I really like in English, not necessarily for its meaning, but for the sound it has on the tongue. It's serendipity. I just find it funny. It rolls well.
Dan Seguin 31:14
What is the one thing you can't live without?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 31:17
Probably in equal measures: my family and coffee. Is that an acceptable answer?
Dan Seguin 31:24
What is something that challenges you?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 31:29
As a mom, with a young family, I'm not a big fan of the terminology, you know, work life balance, but just trying to set some time for what's important, and not being consumed by work or other things. So just knowing your limits, I think is going to be a lifelong exercise for me.
Dan Seguin 31:51
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 31:55
Oh, that's a good one. Probably traveling through time.
Dan Seguin 32:00
Okay. If you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 32:08
That you're on the right path, you know, continue to travel as much as you can. And, and learn from people who want to mentor you, you know, on your path to whatever you want to achieve. Because you know, people want to help each other. That's what I've learned. They're always happy to share insights. And most the time you just have to ask and people will be there to help you.
Dan Seguin 32:33
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 32:40
I think all the excitement around the electrification, the fact that we know this is probably the next Industrial Revolution. It's hard to really tangibly feel what this is going to look like. But it's going to affect everybody in a good way. And there's not going to be one sector that's going to be left to the side because we're all going to need to collaborate. And so just that aspect of working together and being able to find new ways to revolutionize a system that has been implemented for years and years is very exciting.
Dan Seguin 33:13
Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about your organization? How can they connect?
Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin 33:20
So website is always the first stop: waterpowercanada.ca We're very active on social media too, so they can find us on YouTube. They can find us on Twitter and on LinkedIn. And don't be a stranger because we love hearing from people.
Dan Seguin 33:39
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #37:
Roughly 50 per cent of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions in Canada are from municipalities. This means that cities have the opportunity to make a huge impact when it comes to shifting and improving energy habits. In this episode, Andrea Flowers – the Senior Project Manager for Environmental Programs, Planning, Infrastructure & Economic Development for the City of Ottawa – tells us all about the steps that Ottawa is taking, through an action plan called Energy Evolution, to reduce GHG emissions from the community by 100 per cent by 2050 and from City operations by 100 per cent by 2040.
Related Content & Links:
Visit ottawa.ca/climatechange to learn more about what Ottawa is doing to reduce GHG emissions and to build a more resilient city in the face of climate change.
Visit ottawa.ca/energyevolution or the Energy Evolution page on Engage Ottawa to learn more about Energy Evolution. Complete a survey to help Energy Ottawa understand the barriers you face to acting on climate change and subscribe to Engage Ottawa to be notified when new content is added.
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:41
Well, everyone, welcome back. This is another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. In April 2019, the City of Ottawa, the nation's capital, declared a climate emergency. It was this declaration that signaled to the community at large that the municipal government was taking climate action very, very seriously. And that is why ramping up with its climate change master plan, its climate resiliency strategy, and a special project called Energy Evolution. It's clear the city recognize that municipalities can influence significant change over their own emissions. In fact, roughly 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are from municipalities. That means every town and every city in Canada can make a huge impact. By tackling climate change at the municipal level, on the ground sort of speak, municipalities can not only improve the quality of life for their residents, but also reduce greenhouse gas emissions and save money in operations and energy costs. Today, we're going to focus on Energy Evolution. This is the action plan for how the City of Ottawa will meet 100% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from its operations of the municipal government by 2040, and from the community, the entire city by 2015. In short, its vision is clear to transform Ottawa into a thriving city of the future powered by clean, renewable energy. Realizing Energy Evolution's vision will require concerted efforts and collaboration across all sectors of the community like never before. The strategy is guided by three components: reduce energy use through conservation and efficiency, increase the supply renewable energy through local and regional production, and prioritize the procurement of clean and renewable energy. Here is today's big question. How will Ottawa the nation's Capital go about to set its emission reduction targets. And what was the process to creating a climate action plan? Joining me today is a very special guest, Andrea Flowers, who is leading the development of the city of Ottawa's renewable energy strategy. Andrea, can you tell us a bit about you, the work that you do, and why global warming, climate change and clean energy means so much to you?
Andrea Flowers 03:37
Well, I have more than 15 years strategic climate change planning, policy development, project management, stakeholder engagement and public education. I've worked in the nonprofit private and public sector at the municipal, provincial and federal level. And over the last year and a half or so I've had the privilege of leading the City of Ottawa's as climate change and resiliency team. I think that climate change is the political and moral challenge of our time, and I think we all have a responsibility to learn about it and take action on it.
Dan Seguin 04:07
Can you tell us a bit about why Ottawa declared a climate emergency in 2019 and why the city needs a community energy transition strategy, like energy evolution?
Andrea Flowers 04:20
Ottawa declared a climate emergency to name, frame and deepen our commitment to protecting the economy or ecosystem in our community from climate change. Worldwide, climate scientists agree that fast rising global temperatures have created a climate emergency, and that we need to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius in order to avoid catastrophic climate change. At this point, there's hardly a week that goes by without hearing about climate change in the news. And so, cities across the country and around the world have declared climate change in order to take action on this issue and raise the profile of it. Since cities have an influence over about half the emissions in Canada, I think Ottawa like all other cities needs a strategy like energy evolution to respond to climate change. I also think that cities like all other levels of government have a responsibility to play in the leadership role of catalyzing the broader community, and helping us all collectively rise to the challenge. In Ottawa Energy Evolution is our strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the community 100% by 2050. In line with that global science and energy evolution hopes to transform Ottawa into a thriving city powered by clean renewable energy. But realizing Energy Evolution's vision will require concerted efforts and collaboration across all sectors of the community.
Dan Seguin 05:48
Andrea, wondering if you can expand on the scope and scale of changes required for Ottawa to reduce GHG emissions below the 2020 levels by 2050. And what are the short, mid and long term targets?
Andrea Flowers 06:07
I'll start with the second part of the question for context. So as part of Council's approval of the new climate change master plan in Ottawa, short, mid and long term targets for greenhouse gas emissions were set, and they align with those inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change targets. So the IPCC targets to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. So community wide, the short term target is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 43% by 2025 and 68% by 2040 and 100% by 2050. And then the scope scale and the short timelines associated with those are really difficult to meet. I would say that meeting those targets will require both unprecedented action and Investment across the community and around the world. So to give you a sense of what that scope and scale means, we're going to have to phase out almost all fossil fuels. That means gas, natural gas and diesel, we're going to nearly fully electrify our heating and cooling systems are going to have to nearly fully electrify or go to zero emission transportation systems. For our personal vehicles or commercial fleets and our transit systems, we're going to have to start using more waste heat and renewable natural gas to meet our heating demands. And we're going to have to generate and store enough renewable energy, particularly electricity mostly from wind and solar to meet the demand and offset emissions that we currently have from Ontario's provincial grid.
Dan Seguin 07:51
based on your analysis, what are the biggest contributors to Ottawa's greenhouse gas emissions and how challenging will it be to shift away from those,
Andrea Flowers 08:03
let me be a bit of background. So Ottawa undertakes greenhouse gas emissions inventories every year so that we know where our emissions come from. And in 2018, the most recent year that we have right now, roughly 90% of the emissions in Ottawa came from the building and transportation sectors, basically how we heat and cool our homes and how we get around the city. And if we look at those emissions, and the contributing sources of emissions, then natural gas is by far the largest contributor in the community, followed by gasoline and diesel. Of course, given the scope and scale of the transportation system in our building sector, it's going to be really difficult to shift away from these emission sources. governments don't have control direct control over emissions, although of course they can influence them between policy and regulation or incentives and disincentives, but success is going to depend to a large extent on private action. It's going to take billions of dollars of public and private capital to make community wide investments over the next 30 years. And to meet those targets that we set, the upfront investments over the next 10 years will be the highest. But the good news is that our financial analysis shows there'll be a net financial benefit to society at large starting in early 2030, probably around 2032 when the net annual savings start to outpace the revenues generated and the savings generated compared to the annual investments required. And beyond the financial challenges. There's lots of federal and provincial governmental, regulatory barriers that prevent us from doing some of the actions required in the model. And then even beyond this, of course, there's risk that the public won't make or accept the types of changes required. And I'm cognizant of the fact that there's a huge Equity and Inclusion risk for this transition. We need to find ways that everybody can participate in climate solutions, and not just the people who can afford it.
Dan Seguin 10:14
In your view, do you feel that public acceptance is a challenge? Can anyone participate in climate solutions? Are there any barriers?
Andrea Flowers 10:23
I'm a champion in this sector. I also own an EV. And I cycle almost everywhere. I've done deep retrofits on my home, and they're all really challenging choices to make for all kinds of reasons: where to start, how to prioritize how to actually do it. You're highlighting some of the other challenges in public acceptance and just our ability to make these changes.
Dan Seguin 10:50
The intergovernmental panel on climate change has said that limiting global warming to 1.5 Celsius is possible. But will require far reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects of society. In order to achieve this at the local level, what type of changes can we expect from the city and even from ourselves
Andrea Flowers 11:14
Well, when we look at Energy Evolution, we've broken it down in a total of five sectors on to figure out how we can achieve a 100% reduction by 2050. The five sectors are land use buildings, transportation, waste, and renewable natural gas and electricity. And four out of the five sectors really rely on land use as sort of a base element to the whole model. If we look at the model itself, the building and transportation sectors account for roughly 75% of all the cumulative emission reductions from now until 2050. And the remaining 25% will have to come from waste and renewable natural gas and electricity sectors. The model itself then takes those five sectors and it breaks it down into 39 actions. And those 39 actions tell us sort of the scale of change required in each of the actions. If we think about what the top five emissions are, I said 75% of the reductions will come from the buildings and transportation sector. So it's no surprise that four of these five come from those areas includes by far the largest action, which is to electrify personal electric vehicles. So about 20% of the 100% of emissions that we need to achieve will come from the electrification of personal vehicles. The second most important action is to divert organics and create renewable natural gas so we need to divert our our kitchen waste our yard and leaf waste away from landfills where we create very a powerful GHG emission called methane. And we need to divert both methane that's produced out landfills and methane, which we could capture through anaerobic digesters and create renewable natural gas. So luckily the city is right now doing a new solid waste master plan. And there they are seeking input on what to do with our organics. The third most important action is to retrofit existing residential buildings and the fourth is to retrofit existing commercial buildings. Now, we're not talking about just air sealing and new windows or insulation in the attic. We're talking about deep retrofits, we're talking about retrofits which will reduce natural gas consumption by about 60%, or at least our thermal or heating demand by about 60%. And we're talking about reducing our electrical demand by about 50%. So deep deep retrofits throughout the residential and commercial and institutional sectors, and then the fifth, like the top five action is to transition to zero emission commercial fleets. And, again, this will likely be electrification of commercial fleets. But we haven't ruled out fuel cells either.
Dan Seguin 14:23
Ottawa has defined its greenhouse gas emission targets and states that one of the ways it will meet them is by increasing the supply of renewable energy through local and regional production and prioritizing the procurement of clean renewable energy. Can you walk us through the targets and how the city will increase the supply of renewable energy?
Andrea Flowers 14:48
Well, achieving the 100% scenario will definitely put an increasing demand on electricity production and the delivery of electricity. So right now renewable energy projects are required to contribute about 8.5% towards the 100% scenario by 2050. Now, the targets are aggressive. So to meet our 2030 targets under the 100% scenario, collectively, we'll have to install a significant amount of clean, renewable energy. We're talking 631 megawatts of solar in the residential, commercial and utility sectors, but 100 megawatts in wind, 18 megawatts in hydro power, and three megawatts in biogas. And by 2030, we would also have to increase our storage to about 73 megawatts to reduce curtailment of renewable generation from 90% to 85%. And those, those are all our 2030 targets, they become even more aggressive in 2050. So how are we going to do it? What kind of things are we thinking about? Well, sort of more broadly in the community. We love to ramp up solar generation at a faster pace for at least the next five years, initially through a rooftop strategy, because on site net metering is the only available opportunity to connect with renewable energy generation to the grid. And then also because of the relative scarcity of renewable fuels, fuel based cogeneration can't be installed unless there is a rationale for doing so, to reduce the redundancy requirement or to support specific electricity system requirements. Existing co-gen plants that don't meet these criteria should retire as opportunities arise. And we'll be looking for a sizable amount of battery or other powered storage capacity to ensure that variable renewable generation can be shifted as we as periods of surplus, you know, vary between high demand and the relative curl curtailment of renewable generation.
Dan Seguin 16:59
What are some of the best benefits that your project Energy Evolution will bring to the city and its residents. Does it include economic development and maybe...what else?
Andrea Flowers 17:10
There's lots of benefits associated with Energy Evolution beyond the obvious reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. Certainly economic development is a key one. From that perspective, supporting Ottawa's local businesses in the transition towards a low carbon economy will help companies reduce their operating costs. And it represents an opportunity to create good quality local jobs and attract investment. Right now. ottawans spend about $3 billion a year on energy costs and most of that leaves the city so if we can generate more energy locally, we can keep a greater share of the energy dollars within our local economy. Canada's clean energy sector is growing faster than almost any other sector and it's attracting 10s of billions of dollars in investment every year. Already are clean energy sector accounts for about 300,000 jobs in Canada. And as part of the financial analysis, and part of the energy and emissions modeling we did for energy pollution. We looked at job creation and we predict for for building retrofits alone, we could generate as many as 38,000 jobs here in Ottawa. And then to your other part of your question beyond economic development, there's there's also other benefits. From a public health perspective, we expect that air quality could improve as we move away from fossil fuels causing a reduction in health related effects like heart disease and breathing problems. We hope that physical and mental health would improve as we get out and cycle and walk more instead of using personal vehicles. We may see an improvement in sleep patterns as the reduced noise levels from vehicles as we transition from fuels to electric vehicles which are much quieter. And as we insulate buildings to improve our heating. And then finally, there's also benefits associated with energy security and resiliency. With an increasing number of extreme events like ice storms and tornadoes. increasing our local renewable generation and supply provides affordable energy to residents and businesses and could help with uninterrupted levels of service during those extreme weather events.
Dan Seguin 19:28
Through an energy lens, what role will conservation and efficiency play in lowering greenhouse gas emissions for Ottawa? Where is that low hanging fruit?
Andrea Flowers 19:42
Well, Energy Evolution's model is built on a conservation first scenario. It uses an integrated model approach. So if conservation doesn't happen first, we will effectively just run out of zero emission energy. The model looks at conservation and efficiencies across all sectors including Buildings transportation, electricity and natural gas. And really the low hanging fruit in that list is the electrification of private vehicles. So a gas power train has a fuel to wheels efficiency in the 20-30% range, whereas, a battery electric is more like a 90% efficiency range. So in our modeling, there's no other single measure which conserves as much primary energy as the conversion from gas or diesel to electric vehicles.
Dan Seguin 20:30
Not to brag, but Hydro Ottawa has been in the renewable energy business for more than 130 years, and currently has built in clean generation to power a third of the city. Andrea, how important was it to engage with strategic partners like Hydro Ottawa, and Envari energy solutions?
Andrea Flowers 20:52
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. It's, it's amazing that hydro Ottawa and their subsidiaries have become such a leader. In green energy and it is critical for us to work with partners like Hydro Ottawa. Throughout the development of energy evolution, we've worked with more than 200 strategic partners and technical experts and we know that the city alone can't achieve the scale of emission reductions required and that everybody has a role to play. Fortunately, Hydro Ottawa and its subsidiaries and Envari and Portage Power have been there. Since the beginning of the energy evolution process. They've provided input technical expertise, and you've been very generous about creating platforms like this one to amplify the messaging and engage broader audiences. Without Hydro Ottawa, it is highly unlikely that energy evolution could succeed. The 100% GHG reduction scenario foresees electrical demand more than doubling by 2050. So we need to work together to align our planning and forecasting identify opportunities and advocate together for policy changes at the provincial level. It's wonderful that hydro Ottawa has a long history of renewable energy generation and we need to keep expanding it. As I said earlier, local generation is key to meeting our targets since the province doesn't currently have plans to generate electricity with zero emissions grid. And because there's so many opportunities for economic development here locally.
Dan Seguin 22:25
The transport sector accounts for approximately a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions and is one of the major sectors where emissions are still rising. Electrification is widely considered an attractive solution for reducing the dependency and environmental impact of road transportation. Where does the city stand with electrification of fleets like buses, EV charging stations, and maybe ebikes.
Andrea Flowers 22:55
Now well, I'll go back to the beginning of the question for a minute because if transportation sector accounts for a quarter of global emissions. It's actually quite a bit higher in Ottawa. So community wide, by in 2018. Ottawa's transportation sector accounted for about 44% of Ottawa's GHG emissions. And partly that's because we don't have a large industrial base here in Ottawa, whereas globally, that would play a more significant role. But 44% of emissions in Ottawa are coming from the transportation sector. And in order to meet our 100% scenario target, transportation, we'll need to account for about 37% of our GHG reduction targets emissions. And the city's corporate target is to reduce GHG emissions 100% by 2040. And you'll notice that that's about 10 years earlier than the community. So in the model for our city operations, the model calls for fleets including our own transit and municipal fleets like by-law police ambulance calls for our fleet. To be zero emission by 2030. And then our commercial fleets to be up to can take a bit longer up to 2040. But the transition to zero emission must be a steady and incremental progress. You can't hit the target by backloading the model because then the the emissions are compounding. And although we expect that electrification will be key for the electrification of fleets, we haven't totally ruled out fuel cells. We have however, rolled out internal combustion power trains, even if they use a carbon neutral fuel, because they simply aren't as efficient. In terms of where does the city stand with electrification of our fleets and buses. The city has a corporate policy to include EV chargers at all new facilities and we're considering revising the policy to include EV chargers when we do major renovations or retrofits at City facilities. We continue to grow our own Electric fleet just in the last couple of weeks, the City of Ottawa has purchased four new hyundai konas for bylaw services, and there's some great information on energyevolution@ottawa.ca about that. And then in terms of public chargers or general stances that we don't want to, we don't want to have any additional barriers to purchasing private electric vehicles. So we want to do what we can to ensure that there is sufficient public charging in municipal facilities and on municipal lands to support that. So the city is installing a new fast charger at Bob McCrory and it'll be a 150 kilowatt fast charger. And then we've partnered with Eydro Ottawa and Envari to install 13 new doubleheader chargers on city right away throughout the city. So those We'll be going in hopefully by the end of 2020. Back to the question around ebikes. We're encouraged by developments in E bikes and E scooters. And they certainly fit broadly under active transportation in the energy evolution strategy. But we haven't yet given them any detailed focus. So there is increasing interest amongst the public and it's a gap that we know we haven't addressed yet.
Dan Seguin 26:28
As an example of conservation efficiency, are you able to talk about the city's LED streetlight conversion project and what the results have been?
Andrea Flowers 26:38
Well, overall, it's been a resounding success. We've already met our energy and maintenance targets. Maintenance savings have given a knock off reduction in GHG emissions from a reduction in the deployment of service vehicles. And I would say, generally, the project seems to have helped with general widespread acceptance of conservation. And that helps us sell the concept of conservation in other areas across the city and the community as well. By the end of the project, I think that we will have changed more than 58,000 light fixtures to LEDs. And we will have reduced our energy by 60%, reduced GHG emissions by thousand tons per year and our operating costs by close to $5 million. So it's a resounding success. We've also seen co-benefits like reduced light pollution and although I've yet to confirm it with a biologist, I've heard anecdotally that the conversion of LED lights is starting to bring back fireflies into the city because the different color of light makes it easier for the fireflies to communicate amongst themselves. So on my to do list is to confirm that with a biologist but I think it is an interesting little tidbit and I choose to think that it may be true.
Dan Seguin 27:54
Okay, you alluded to this earlier, so wondering if you could expand on what role will energy storage have in lowering the city's carbon future.
Andrea Flowers 28:06
Thermal storage, renewable natural gas and battery storage all have a role to play in meeting Ottawa's GHG reduction targets. Thermal storage will likely be the most important kind of storage both seasonally and on a shorter term basis. So, seasonally or longer term storage will be important for how we operate geothermal systems and shorter term storage will be more buildings specific and could help us shave peak demands. Although we call exclusively for renewable natural gas in the model, the gas grid will provide less energy than it does today and it will continue to be a large source of storage likely able to meet all demand without any supply for several weeks. And then finally, we need battery storage and the 100% model for electrical grid stability to manage variable generation. battery storage is required to reduce the curtailment renewable generation during periods of low demand, and although it's not modeled, we see the potential for storage to help with the economic competitiveness of electricity. And this ultimately will be important in helping Ottawa achieve our targets.
Dan Seguin 29:15
Okay, Andrea, let's close this off with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.
Andrea Flowers 29:23
Ready
Dan Seguin 29:24
What is your favorite word?
Andrea Flowers 29:27
Zither - such a fun word to say it's a quirky instrument like a harp. You play on your lap and I've had one since a child and it's it's a fun word to say. I played the zither.
Dan Seguin 29:41
What is the one thing you can't live without?
Andrea Flowers 29:44
My man.
Dan Seguin 29:46
What is something that challenges you
Andrea Flowers 29:49
the status quo
Dan Seguin 29:51
If you had one superpower, just one, what would it be?
Andrea Flowers 29:55
Ah the ability to show people the future so that we can really see what the consequences of our actions and our decisions are.
Dan Seguin 30:05
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?
Andrea Flowers 30:10
Ah, I would say just follow a path of love. And you will find love in all aspects of your life. Trust that the things that you're interested in, will lead you interesting places and that the path might not always be clear, but there will always be something interesting along the way.
Dan Seguin 30:34
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Andrea Flowers 30:39
The intersection between science and politics. It's complex and interconnected and evolving quickly, so it is ever changing.
Dan Seguin 30:51
Well, Andrea, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you, your organization, how can they connect?
Andrea Flowers 31:05
Well, to be honest, I think that they need to learn less about me and more about the important work that the City is doing and this project in particular Energy Evolution. If you want to learn more about climate change in Ottawa, then you can visit ottawa.ca/climatechange. And there you'll find links to both the mitigation work we do on how to reduce greenhouse gas emissions like Energy Evolution, as well as our adaptation work and how we will build a more resilient future for Ottawa in the face of a changing climate. So, lots of ways and lots of other ways to connect on there, you can go to ottawa.ca/climatechange or ottawa.ca/energyevolution. There you have a chance to sign up for our E newsletter, which focuses on climate change. You can learn more about the projects and how to get involved and You can take a survey on that tells us what kind of barriers you face on implementing climate action.
Dan Seguin 32:09
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast Be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #35:
When we talk about the electrification of transportation, we tend to think about electric vehicles or light rail transit. But there’s another sub-genre of electric transportation that is rapidly growing in popularity: e-bikes. In this episode, Seth Weintraub, an award-winning tech journalist and blogger, helps us tackle some of the myths surrounding e-bikes and helps us understand why they’re becoming one of the greenest transportation options when it comes to urban traffic and environmental impact.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. When we talk about electrification of transportation, we tend to think about electric vehicles, buses, or light rail transit. But there's another subset of electric trains Transportation that is rapidly growing in popularity. With improvements to battery storage, we may just be entering a new golden age of transportation and mobility, driven by a range of factors from climate change technology, economics, in general consumer preference, the evolution of electric transportation is changing the landscape faster than we've seen in our history. Certainly the awareness of our own responsibility to reduce our own overall impact on the environment is a significant factor. The accounting firm Deloitte says that 300 million electric bikes will be out worldwide by 2023, which is 50% more than today, urban dwellers in particular are seeking convenient, eco healthy and affordable ways to move around congested cities. A criticism has been that e-bikes don't contribute to exercise since the motor does most of the work for you. But a new university of Boulder Colorado study shows that using an electrically powered bicycle on a regular basis can actually provide riders with an effective workout while improving some aspects of cardiovascular health, especially for riders who were previously inactive. The researchers noticed improvement in the rider’s cardiovascular health, including increased aerobic capacity and improved blood sugar control. E-bikes and scooters are affordable now. They are efficient to operate, reduce congestion and ease commute times. They do increase physical activity and simply put - a lot of fun. Yes, e-bikes have a higher emission than a regular bicycle but they far outperform cars, including electric ones, similar to EV's e-bikes can help communities achieve their GHG emission reduction targets. What's interesting is that half of all e-bikes driving trips are shorter than 16 kilometers, with some averaging single trips of just nine kilometers. That's a no brainer distance to cover by e-bikes. Studies show that e-bike owners are replacing 46% of their car commutes, and 30% of their driving errands with a bike rides. Of course, like other electric forms of transportation. This takes support, buy in, and infrastructure investments from municipalities. With supportive cycling infrastructure in place e-bikes have the potential to substitute or completely replace almost all trips taken by a gasoline powered car -which could address congestion and pollution issues and mitigate parking challenges within urban areas, especially for downtown dwellers. So here's today's big question: Are two wheels better than four? In addition to tackling some of the myths surrounding e-bikes are the greenest transportation option when it comes to urban traffic, and environmental impact. Joining me today is a very special guest, Seth Weintraub, an award winning journalist and blogger. In 2003, Seth bought one of Tesla's first model S EVs off the assembly line. This began his love affair with electric vehicles and green energy, which he turned into electrek.co. Seth, I only scratched the surface of your bio in my introduction. Can you tell us a bit more about you, your work, and why electric transportation technology and the environment mean so much to you?
Seth Weintraub 05:14
Alright, so my background is in engineering, I went to school for engineering got my post grad engineering. But I started about 10 years after I began my career in writing about technology. And that started with Apple and started 9to5Mac, about 12 years ago. And then that expanded to Google covering Google and covering, you know, the wider technology range. My interest in clean energy kind of began, when I got a Prius, but really kind of everything came together when I bought my first fully electric car, which was a 2013 Tesla. Model S, you know, I got it at the time, I started reading around about, you know, this product, which I thought was pretty incredible. And nobody was really talking intelligently about it, in my opinion, obviously. So I was like, Hey, I know how to do a blog, I know how to, you know, write about technology. I'm going to start up electrek. So that, you know, I didn't want to just say like, start up another 9to5 Tesla kind of site. I wanted to kind of hit the wider spectrum. At the time, I was super interested in solar, we were putting solar on your house, so we get the full, you know, the driving and electric car powered by the sun. At the time, Tesla wasn't a solar provider, they had Solar City which is, you know, kind of a preferred vendor at the time because you own both companies. But eventually they Tesla integrated Solar City into the company. And there are a lot of other solar platforms out there. So it's just a super interesting thing. And it's kind of scary if we don't kind of figure out the getting fossil fuels out of our energy matrix. And so it's not just solar and electric cars, we like to talk about electric bikes in a big way. We talked about boats and trains, and you know, every other form of transportation and energy usage. And super interesting because it's changing so much right now. It's such a big part of, you know, the transformation that's going on around the globe. And obviously, it's super important.
Dan Seguin 07:42
Now, I'd like to talk about electric bikes, which are gaining in popularity across the world. I'd be interested to hear about the technology behind e-bikes and break down any myth or misunderstanding about what they are and what they are not.
Seth Weintraub 08:00
That's great - electric bikes, in my opinion are one of the big technology transformations happening right now. So you know as a background love to bikes used to be lead acid batteries and kind of the change in cars from lead acid and nickel cadmium batteries to lithium batteries kind of worked its way down to electric bikes. So, you know, 10 years ago, any electric bike you would find would probably be a lead acid battery so big and heavy and kind of not able to use the full potential of the battery. And that's gone down to these like bricks that are, you know, pretty small and sometimes even fit into the frame of the bike. So, um, but, you know, it just there's so much to talk about electric bikes. You know, they started kind of in earnest about five or six years ago becoming something that you know, everybody can jump on to you know, why are they great? So for me, you know, I, I live in an extremely hilly area, but even if I didn't, the extra speed for me makes my commute more like a car commute. So I can go to my coffee shop or you know to do run my errands on regular roads that cars occupy and I travel around 25 miles per hour. So even on big hills, a car doesn't overtake me very quickly, if at all. So, for me, it's a safety issue like I travel more like a car, cars aren't trying to pass me they're not stressed out. They can't overtake me very quickly. But it also opens up biking to a much broader swath of the population. So you know, if you have a five or 10 mile commute to work on a regular bike, you have to be quite fit and you're probably going to expect to arrive at your destination pretty sweaty in a regular bike. But with a an electric bike, you can kind of control how much assist you have, you know, some electric bikes have throttles and there's a whole litany of, you know, what's legal, where. But a throttle is it almost turns it into like a moped, where you don't even have to pedal if you don't want to. And obviously, the breeze in the air keeps you cool. Like, you know, it's 95 degrees. What is that? Like? 30 something Celsius out today, and everybody's like, I can't believe you're riding your bike. I'm like, when you're going 25 miles per hour, like it's pretty cool. Like there's a lot of wind hitting you and it's, it's really not that bad of a commute. So there are just so many components to it. And you know, I'm probably going off on all different directions, but it just enables a much broader swath of the population can go much further, much faster, much safer.
Dan Seguin 10:57
Okay, Seth, who is the main consumer of e-bikes. Is it the adventurer or the urban city resident looking for a quick commute? Are there different classes of e-bikes and levels of motor systems? Can you maybe help me better understand the categories and the consumers?
Seth Weintraub 11:18
Sure. So there are a lot of different consumers of E bikes. You have younger folks who just want to go really fast. You have older folks who may be their, you know, their legs and hips aren't what they were at one point and the bike makes it easier to go, city people there's, there's people who like high performance. There's the bikes that are pretty much motorcycles with pedals, and they can go 30-40 miles per hour. So I don't want to there's not just one group of e-bike owners there's they kind of cross the swath of the population. So, you know, you alluded to urban city residents man, like, you know, I live in the suburbs, but every time I go to New York City, I love having an E bike, I can get around much faster than anybody. I mean, I can beat an ambulance across town quite easily. So, for the urban people, like, you're just flying by traffic, there's no, you know, obviously, you don't want to blow any traffic lights and you want to obey everything. But like, for the most part, you're going to be the fastest vehicle on the road. And but for suburbanites like me, like, you know, going to the store, for instance, one thing people don't think about is like, you probably have to park pretty far away and you have to, you know, walk out to your car and do all this other stuff. And by the time you eliminate it, because when you write an E-bike, you pull it out of your garage and drive right up to the store. By the time you do all those things that you have to deal with, you know, find a parking spot, and drive around, whatever. By the time you do all that you're pretty much getting to your destination at this same amount of time with any bike that then when you are with a car, so you know it for me like, when I go somewhere in a car, I kind of just space out and forget about it. But when you're on a bike, it's like a ton of fun you're, you know, hitting the turns and flying and sees how fast you can pedal. So it's just better in just about every other way. Obviously. When there's a lot of snow when it's raining, that presents some issues, but it's just, you know, as a human being, I think the experience is so much better. You're way more in touch with your environment, you're way more in touch with the people around you. It's just, it's just better in every single way. So there are three official categories of e-bikes in the US and then there's a kind of a fourth category that's unofficial. A category one is a pedal assist up to 20 miles per hour, category two is pedal assist up to 20 miles per hour with a throttle, category three is pedal assist up to 28 miles per hour. And then there's kind of an unofficial category for which is the throttle for 28 miles per hour. And then, you know, in the EU they have a kind of a different kind of motorcycle-ish electric motorcycles category up to around 35 miles per hour.
Dan Seguin 14:23
Thanks, Seth. What is the biggest obstacle and/or opportunity for the mass adoption of E-bikes? Does it take him in this capacity to build an E bike movement? Or where does it begin? Do e-bikes offer a transit solution that can be seamlessly integrated into sustainable city features?
Seth Weintraub 14:44
I'm gonna say like, the roads, like safety, is kind of like the number one thing I think keeps people off of bikes in general. But you know, e-bikes are certainly a part of that. That when bike-specific lanes get put into cities, biking goes way up, safety goes way up. There are even bike lanes. Like if you're on a street with a bike lane. There are still quite a few accidents that happen there. It's better than no bike lane at all. But, having a dedicated, walled-off avenue for bikes is kind of the way to go. And that's one way of jump-starting bikes. My personal belief is biking is going to start with people like getting the word out, getting people educated, getting people on bikes, like, you know, I'm kind of an evangelist, so to speak. So, you know, I drive my bike to the coffee shop every day, which is about three or four miles or five kilometers. So they, you know, people see the bike and they want to ask questions, I'm like, Hey, get on, go ride around. See what you think and I probably sold, I don't know, 10 or 15 bikes, and just by putting somebody's butt on the seat. So I think you know, if a city is looking for a way to get more people on bikes, they should probably just say, you know, have events like, hey, come grab the bike, or, hey, we're going to do e-bikes, you can rent a bike for give it a try free for day, that kind of thing. You know, obviously Uber's jump and line bike and all those are, are good ways for cities to kind of get into E-biking, although I would say those bikes aren't a great experience. They're certainly better than the equivalent non electric versions.
Dan Seguin 16:44
Now. e-bikes give us another device to charge. Are batteries getting better. How long can they last before recharging?
Seth Weintraub 16:54
Great question. So e-bikes are certainly getting better as batteries get better. technology gets better. One thing I would like to see is e-bikes to adopt USBC. So that's kind of the standard that your MacBook and your PC or laptops are using - goes up to 100 watts would be nice if not only could they charge via USBC, but they could, you know, maybe, you know, in the wintertime when you're not using your bike, you can use the battery as a backup for your home. So if your power goes out, you can use your laptop or power your phone, you know, it adds more utility to the battery on your bike. So that's one thing I think that could make batteries better beyond the more charge. As far as how long do they last before charging, that's, you know, there's big batteries and small batteries and powerful batteries and non-powerful batteries. A typical battery for any bike on a typical e-bike would probably take you around 10 or 20 miles with you know, some pedaling involved. There are bikes that go hundred miles and there are bikes that probably, you know, you have trouble making it five miles. So you're going to want to check that out probably check out our review maybe on a lab check to see you know what real world range bikes get but you know the least expensive bikes out there, you know, a bike that costs like $700 on Amazon will take you 10 or 20 miles.
Dan Seguin 18:24
Here are two things that I usually avoid talking about on the show: finances and weight. But I have to know, what is the cost range of any bike and how heavy are they? Now, having had to get one on a bike rack to a car, I can attest, they're fairly heavy...
Seth Weintraub 18:43
Yeah. So they're heavier. I think a typical one will weigh around 50 pounds. And you know that's off, probably about double what a typical non electric bike weighs. The good news there is you can kind of just pull off the battery in a lot of cases. So like, if you're putting it on the rack, you can pull off the battery, which is, you know, it'll bring it down to 35 pounds, you still have a heavy motor and some more heavy components that are going to make it a little heavier. But you can put the battery in your car while you're taking it out. So, the cost range is another really tricky one. I mean, you can get very inexpensive ones down, you know four or $500 but those are the smaller tired ones maybe the foldables, very low power very small batteries. You know, there's like four major North American, maybe five brands, just off the top of my head - There's like Saunders evelo Luna juice, and probably the biggest one is Rad. Yeah, so they those are typically cost, like I just bought my father-in-law a Rad runner for I think around 1100 dollars US and you know that's kind of a base model bike it's got fat tires and then you know we got ourselves a Juice Scorpion, which is kind of a more like a more petty looking one and that's that goes for around 1500 dollars you know that's going to be your range of like solid bikes you know 1000 to 1500 is good and then if you're looking for like bike store quality bikes, you know track specialized, you're looking at $2-3,000 I'm currently my daily driver right now is a Gazelle T-10, which is a fantastic bike. You know, all the power I need but still is a biking type of experience. And that that I think runs retails around $3-4,000 depending on the configuration, so pretty wide range.
Dan Seguin 21:06
Okay, let's move on, with the growing concern around preservation and sustainability for future generations, are electric bikes, one of the most environmentally sound means of motorized transportation in the world today?
Seth Weintraub 21:23
Absolutely. And, you know, I didn't allude to it earlier but when you think about how much power you actually need to get, you know, the 5-10 mile commute that you do every day compared to even an electric car - it's a small fraction. So for instance, for my an entire week of going, you know, I do a lot of my work at the coffee shop in town for an entire week, I can go off of one 500 watt hour battery. So, you know, in comparison that would drive my Tesla probably about a mile. So, you know, I'm going, I don't know, 20 times as far as you can go on a car on the same amount of energy. So, you know, if everybody rode a bike instead of, I mean even an electric car and then you know, obviously, gasoline cars are much worse on the environment than that. But I mean, just even compared to an electric car, an electric bike is so much more fuel efficient. You know, obviously 20 people could ride bikes for one person riding a car in terms of energy usage.
Dan Seguin 22:38
Thanks to our green space, and dedicated bike lanes our great city, Ottawa, has a thriving cycling community. What cities in the world are leading the e-bike movement through Policy and Planning? Where are the success stories that Canada can learn from?
Seth Weintraub 22:58
You know, I think the world leader and in biking at least in the Western world would probably be Amsterdam. They kind of took a look way back in the 50s and 60s at their car culture city and kind of reinvented their city around biking and pedestrian traffic and you know obviously the city is much better for it. You know, each city is different. I've been to some places like even Berlin. It had a great way to get around on bikes, there's like dedicated bike lanes and every area. I lived in Paris for a year. They had a couple years they had something called the belly there where this was way early, maybe 10-15 years ago before you know all the bikes and Uber jumps and you just rent a bike from Any spot, you know, within a few blocks and you can go to any other spot within a few blocks, their roads weren't as bike friendly, but they had, you know, at least a system to get on the bike and get off the bike really easily. So, you know, that's my experience. You know, unfortunately, the US doesn't have too much to offer there. You know, we're very car-culture type of place. I'm trying to think. I don't remember Toronto being a very bike centric area, although I did enjoy a long bike ride in Vancouver. So maybe that's, that's somewhere else to look.
Dan Seguin 24:44
And Seth, what about E-scooters? What are your thoughts?
Seth Weintraub 24:48
Well, I would argue so I've used e-scooters, I would argue that bikes are way safer. You're just standing versus sitting. You're actually getting some exercise on bike scooters are with their smaller wheels not as adept at hitting potholes and stuff like that. I mean, I like scooters, they're energy efficient compared to cars, they're not picking up nearly as much space. But for me, personally, my experience on the bike was much better than a scooter.
Dan Seguin 25:24
Other than the demand for environmentally friendly products, what are the major factors that have contributed to the widespread adoption of electric bike growth in recent years? Do geography and culture play a part?
Seth Weintraub 25:42
Geography definitely plays a part. Certainly, you know, hills make electric bikes more appealing, culture in the sense that you know, if you see somebody riding an e-bike, you become more open to riding with yourself, if your friends and family pick one up and you're going to probably give, give one a try. Other factors that contribute, I think, you know, as I mentioned, for more out there, kind of breeds more, more adoption. And certainly like the technology getting better. The prices of really good batteries are coming down because of all the electric cars and other innovations happening. So it's a combination of things. I'm trying to think of other stuff, you know, hopefully, websites like ours are bringing electric bikes to the forefront, you know, maybe you're a Tesla person and you're like, Hey, you know, I like reading electric for the Tesla coverage, but there's all these really awesome e-bikes we see, maybe pick one of those up too and throw it in my trunk.
Dan Seguin 27:05
Now, what's it like to ride an e-bike in traffic? Numerous studies identify the issues of safety as the key barrier to e-bike adoption. The two primary safety issues are one: the actual safety of the e-bike itself, including its higher operating range relative to a regular bicycle, and two: safely writing an e-bike on the road, Seth, how can these concerns be addressed? And what should beginners know?
Seth Weintraub 27:36
So I agree with that, I think we talked about it earlier about safety being the probably the biggest barrier to e-bike adoption. If you are going to ride on roads. Obviously speed kills the faster you go - when you have an accident, they're more likely you're going to get hurt. But the flip side of that is that if you're driving, if you're riding your bike and you're behaving more like a car, you'll get treated more like a car. So instead of riding, you know, on the white line on the right side of the road, you ride in the middle of the road, and you're and you're riding the speed limit. So, you know, if you're in that 25 mile per hour zone, or 30-35 mile per hour zone, and you're actually going close to the speed limit, cars aren't going to feel the need to overtake you. So you can kind of become one, you know, one of them on the road, just that you know, kind of like a motorcycle would kind of think of itself as a, you know, a road citizen. So that for me is the big difference. When I ride around town or people don't try to overtake me because I'm, I'm riding the same speed as cars. Obviously, when somebody sees somebody on a bike, though, they're in the car, their first thought is Oh crap, I got to you know, figure out a way to get around this guy, but, you know, if I'm riding in the middle of the road and I'm going the speed limit, there's really no reason to try to get around me. And they just kind of settle in behind me. Hopefully.
Dan Seguin 29:10
Okay, Seth, how about we close off this podcast with rapid fire questions? I hope you are ready.
Seth Weintraub 29:18
Oh, God. Yeah.
Dan Seguin 29:20
What is your favorite word?
Seth Weintraub 29:23
Electrification.
Dan Seguin 29:24
What is one of the things you can't live without?
Seth Weintraub 29:27
I'm going to get sappy and say: family.
Dan Seguin 29:29
What is something that challenges you?
Seth Weintraub 29:35
Well, you know, my day to day is publishing. So I'm going to probably go with Google's publishing world.
Dan Seguin 29:44
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Seth Weintraub 29:48
Just flying would be fine.
Dan Seguin 29:50
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?
Seth Weintraub 29:56
Relax, maybe like things are going to come together. Pretty good. I don't know. I kind of feel like there's a lot of anxiety around 18. So one of those, you know, don't, don't get too discouraged.
Dan Seguin 30:15
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Seth Weintraub 30:21
So for us, what's super interesting is that we are, you know, at a crossroads. So it's, what's interesting to us is like, we know where we're going to be in a few years where we know that, you know, Norway is a good example. They're kind of ahead of the curve 60% of the cars they buy, and obviously, a lot of their bikes are electrified. We know we're going to get there but it's always interesting to see how we're going to get there. It's interesting watching people's minds change. I was at a socially distant dinner party last night, and somebody who I had no idea was interested in electric vehicles was like, Yeah, I got to get an electric bike. And I know my next car is going to be electric. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of going mainstream now. So that's kind of like, what's super interesting for me.
Dan Seguin 31:21
While Seth, we reached the end of another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you? How can they connect?
Seth Weintraub 31:31
So visit Electrek.co We, um, there. We have a podcast every Friday. And I'm @llsethj on Twitter. That's kind of my outlet of choice for non-story items.
Dan Seguin 31:52
Again, Seth, thank you so much for joining me today. It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed it. Cheers.
Seth Weintraub 32:00
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Dan Seguin 32:04
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #34:
What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground, and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings – or even whole communities? You get something called district energy. In this episode, Jeff Westeinde, President of Zibi Canada and Founding partner of Windmill Development Group, shares his passion for environmental sustainability, designing communities to support One Planet Living, and leveraging age-old systems like district energy as a means of achieving a zero carbon footprint.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings - even whole communities, you get something called 'district energy'. And it's not a new concept. A quick search will reveal that its origins can be traced back to the second century BC to the invention of the hypocaust heating systems that powered the hot water bath of the ancient Roman Empire. Famously a hot water distribution system in Chaudes-Aigues, in France, is regarded as the first real district heating system. It used geothermal energy to provide heat for about 30 houses in the 14th century, and the US Naval Academy in Annapolis began steam district heating in 1853. If you're like me, maybe you're wondering why modern civilization did not continue to use this efficient and environmentally sustainable technology more. There are some European countries such as Denmark, where district energy is mandated, but for the most part, it is largely gone the way of ancient Rome and public bathing. The latter is not such a bad thing in my mind, with more and more socially conscious citizens around the globe, district energy is once again seeing a surge in popularity and becoming a preferred method, thanks to its lower and energy efficient operating costs, reduced supply disruptions, and environmentally sound methods of heating and cooling buildings, municipalities and property owners are intrigued by this ancient alternative energy technology. So, here's today's big question: Is the world ready to embrace district energy as a viable means to power our communities? Is the nation's capital ready to have the first one planet zero carbon community district energy system in the country? Well, my guest today is the founding partner of the THEIA partnership. One of Canada's most sustainable real estate development companies, as well as the president of Zibi Canada, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project. He's also an active investor and entrepreneur in both environmental, clean tech and real estate sector with active investments in solar energy, site remediation, and the beneficial reuse of waste. Dear listeners, please welcome Jeff Westeinde. Jeff, can we start by you telling us a bit about your background, the Zibi project and what drives your passion to build sustainable communities?
Jeff Westeinde 04:02
Well, so I guess my background, I always say I'm an entrepreneur. I'm an engineer by training, but entrepreneur by practice. So I've, I've had one, what I call real job in my career, I worked for a company for a little over a year, it quickly became apparent that I was unemployable. So I had to start my own business. And I've always been in the environmental sector. So I started I started my career as an environmental contractor cleaning up industrial messes and some of the wastes of the past. And as part of that, I would watch our clients the way they were cleaning up properties, and then what they would do to redevelop them. And I was pursuing trying to, you know, clean up the environment, make the planet a better place. And yet, so the practices we were using, were actually making it worse. We're trucking contaminated soils. You know, the time I lived in BC, we're picking up soil, putting it in a dump truck and hauling it across the Rocky Mountains into a landfill in Alberta. And nobody can tell me that's good for the environment. So very good. quickly decided that we shouldn't say very quickly but decided while I continue to move up the food chain, and start to buy contaminated properties and start to develop places and communities. And because we were purchasing contaminated properties, the commitment that we had was, let's do better than we've done before. So let's push the envelope about how can we live in a sustainable way? How can we ensure that what we're building today doesn't cause the problems that we're cleaning up on the very site for developing so that's maybe a bit of a background as to you know, why how I got into this and in my passion around, you know, leaving, like, I don't know if you're ever in the wilderness, but there's a rule, leave the campsite better than you found it. And I think that rule, that should be a planet wide rule, and it's historically as you know, as not being so.
Dan Seguin 05:51
Okay, Jeff, you're on the record saying that the way we build communities does not support health, happiness or the environment. What do you mean by that? And how does Zibi differentiate?
Jeff Westeinde 06:07
So, I might even be so bold as to say that, I would argue that most of our planning, especially in North America, is actually shortening the lifespan of our own citizens. And that's because we're so car reliant. We're so socially isolated in the way that we build. So think about a typical suburb. In a typical suburb, if you want to get up and, you know, go get a coffee, buy some milk, bring your kids to school, the very first thing you do is go hop in your car and drive. And that that leads to, you know, the stats that can predict the rate of diabetes, the rate of obesity, the rate of all sorts of other chronic diseases by the postal code you live in, was shocking. So, this car centric suburban lifestyle is not good for you. So that's the health side of it. The happiness side of it, I'll just point to one stat. And that's that you can use, there are statistics that say you can determine the level of happiness of somebody by how many of their neighbors they know by first name. Well, when you live in the suburbs, you know, you might know 2, 3, 4 neighbors, or those people whose kids are your age, or those guys you play hockey with, but you don't have the unexpected collisions as you're walking to the coffee shop or as you're bringing your kids to school. So again, that urban sprawl arguably leads to a lot of source of social isolation. And if something happens to an older person, you fall, you break a leg, even as a young person and you're inside your house. Similarly, you're not looking out your window and seeing people and waving at them and those types of things. So how we build our communities, I think is really important for health, happiness and obviously for environmental sustainability. And what we're doing at Zibi is making sure that you will not be car centric, that you do have these collisions with your neighbors. As you're walking around the neighborhood. We actually have social programming that, you know, we have snowshoe nights and that when Cirque du Soleil comes, we have a night that is just for the residents of Zibi that come, you know those kinds of things to make sure you feel like a part of that community.
Dan Seguin 08:28
How did you discover the one planet system? What can you tell us about it and your goal to build the first one in Canada?
Jeff Westeinde 08:38
Well, so we'll talk about how we discovered it first, and that's good. Myself and my business partners were behind the very first LEED Platinum buildings in Canada. So we built the first LEED Platinum building in BC, Alberta, Ontario, and in the country as a whole and the LEED Platinum building we built in Alberta - I was visiting one day A couple years after we'd built it, and LEED Platinum is literally the Platinum standard, the most sustainable in the lead system. And I watched one of the residents of his LEED Platinum condominium building drive a Hummer SUV into the parking garage, and said, you know, it's great that our building is sustainable, but we really have an impact and how the users are using the building and how they're, how they're living their lives. So we started scouring the planet, literally to say, Well, is there a system that would really impact not only how we build our buildings and how they operate at a point in time, but how do we engage the people, the users that are using those places? So one planet, we get rated on things like health and happiness and social engagement, along with all the other architectural and engineering features of a community. And the way one planet works: very simple. The name says it all we have to live as if we only have one planet. Most people when I say that look at me and sort of go, but we only do have one planet. And we need to remind them that if you live like a typical Canadian, you're using four planets of resources to sustain your unsustainable lifestyle, and Americans using five planets, Europeans using three planets, and all we're doing is stealing from future generations, and the developing world to sustain our unsustainable lifestyles. So one planet really is all about both environmental sustainability, like technical sustainability and social sustainability, with one planet worth of resources, and it's a very holistic program. Very audacious goals, we're going to talk about zero carbon. So as you know, Zibi is in the nation’s capital in Ottawa and Gatineau. You know, we are we are today we're going to be at plus 34 degrees. Six months from now we'll be at minus 34 degrees Celsius and to be zero carbon in this environment. It's the Holy Grail. So achieving one planet is not an easy thing to do very audacious. But that's where we said, No, that's the bar we need to hit, we need to again, leave our campsite better than we came to it.
Dan Seguin 11:13
I was fascinated that this method, 'district energy' dates back, like I think is 3000 or 4000 years to the time of the Roman Empire. What are some of the key benefits of the energy system you're implementing in your community? And why has it taken this long for folks to embrace it with it's being around for so long?
Jeff Westeinde 11:40
Well, like most technological breakthroughs, it is not the technology itself or even the concept itself that gets in the way, its people. So regulators, you know, if you look at how our grid works, say in Ontario, you cannot run a district electrical system. I can't, I couldn't produce energy and give it to my neighbor. Because we have a regulatory body that says you can't do it. And there are good reasons for that it was around safety and security and all those types of things. But we've ended up with all of these barriers, that that would prohibit the transportation and sale of energy. And, you know, I talked about electricity. But what's very interesting at Zibi - our district energy system is just hot and cold water. And there are no regulations currently in Ontario and Quebec, around moving hot and cold water. So that allowed us to start a district energy system. Answer so yeah. Again, the reason I would say you don't see more of them is the regulatory hurdles to implement the district energy system are enormous. However, the benefits are huge. And I'll use a very, you know, high level example that if you were to have a, you know, a Shopify data center, a good Canadian company, unlike Amazon, as a for instance. That is in constant cooling. So it's rejecting heating all the time. Right? And beside it, you have the Nordic spa, another great company that always needs heating, but needs to therefore be rejecting cooling. When you put those two side by side, and they're swapping energy back and forth. So your load is so much less. That's the concept of District energy is that by sharing and you know, a commercial building has different loads than a residential building has different loads than a retail building. By sharing those loads, they have different peaks, either for peak shades, you'd be you have less capital expenditure and you're more efficient. Why is it taking so long? It drives me crazy, but I really do think it's regulation is the key item why.
Dan Seguin 13:52
Aside from regulation, what have been the challenges you encountered bringing this technology to market in Canada? The sight of your one planet community alone, straddling Ontario and Quebec, is really unique. Tell us about the challenges and how your passion has gotten you through.
Jeff Westeinde 14:12
Yeah, I'm not sure how long this podcast is, but I could talk for a week about the challenges. Yeah, as you talked about, we do span the provincial border between Ontario and Quebec. You know, we jokingly say, both sides have a different word for everything. Because one speaks French one speaks English. Even the rule of law is different to one side of the other the legal system. So, you know, we need to repeat everything twice when we do this, but what I'll tell you is, I would say that the way that we've overcome what are just an enormous amount of challenges, I won't even get into what they all are, but it was it was crazy. Boy, when we overcome it was we shared our vision. And actually, I would say was our community's vision of saying, this is where our region started. Arguably, this is where, you know, the roots of our country started was on this site. And when we when we purchased the property was a fenced off locked off contaminated former industrial site that nobody had seen unless you worked at domtar. For probably 100 years, people didn't realize there's a waterfall in the middle of the city. What the community talked about in the vision that we had was no, we need to do something truly world class like something that people would come to our region and say Quebecers Ontarians, Canadians, look at the communities and the places that they create. And with that vision of being world class, we were fortunate that that politicians in the region, federal, municipal and provincial, all endorsed out the community endorse it. So when we started to bump up against bureaucracy and regulations, we were able to remind everybody that our commitment or contract to all of our stakeholders was, we're going to do some world class. Now world class, meaning different, and bureaucracies and regulations exist to enforce the same. So we were able to say, listen, you've got to empower, talk to the politicians, you've got to empower the bureaucrats who are paid to make sure that everybody does everything the same, to say, No, we've got to look at this one differently. We're not looking to do anything unsafe or unreasonable. But there's a better way and we've got to find it. And it was really that vision of world class and the endorsement that we got from all of the public stakeholders who said, yeah, we want to be world class. We don't want to just build another suburb of the City of Ottawa or Gatineau.
Dan Seguin 16:47
Now through a marketing lens, how did you position this alternative energy system that provides heating and cooling to your communities' new housing projects? What was the value proposition for prospective buyers and investors.
Jeff Westeinde 17:03
I think the key one, one of the lessons we've learned about sustainability and building sustainable buildings and building sustainable communities, is, most consumers don't, you know, while it's a nice to have being sustainable, it's not something that they're making a purchasing decision around. That's changing. I think more and more people are starting to look at that, but historically hasn't been important. So the key to sustainability is, we need to, we're going to allow you to be much more environmentally sustainable, socially sustainable, without any impact to your lifestyle. So when it comes to district heating and cooling, we said, listen, we're going to deliver you zero carbon district heating and cooling at the same market cost as a carbon based system, and you won't know. If you know you're going to turn your heat on, it's going to get hot, you're going to turn up your cooling on it's going to get cool, and you're not going to pay any more of the market. So that was that batten marketing. I mean, that's a no brainer to everybody that Okay, hold on, I get the exact same as I would get in a carbon based system but I'm zero carbon or more sustainable. That's a pretty easy sell at that point.
Dan Seguin 18:11
Okay, now I'd like to explore design aspects. District energy equipment inside a building occupies about one fifth of the area of conventional systems that boilers and chillers take up. I'm assuming this provides more flexibility in designing your buildings and community. By eliminating traditional HVAC systems, what building design options did this enable you to expand on?
Jeff Westeinde 18:44
There's some easy ones like if you think about rooftop patios, as a for instance, you know, if you have a rooftop patio beside a big chiller that's making a bunch of noise is not a great rooftop. So by being able to eliminate that equipment. You know, our rooftop patios are much nicer. But really as a place maker, as a developer, the key aspect for us was if you know if you take all of that mechanical and electrical distribution space, and you end up with instead real estate that you can use, it's another added benefit to saying that that district energy makes financial sense or can make financial sense. It wasn't easy to unlock that but can make financial sense. So, so yeah, it obviously the less constraints you have on a building, the more flexibility you have and district is one tool for that for sure.
Dan Seguin 19:45
Now, wondering if you could zero in on the energy distribution system that harnesses excess heat from the Kruger paper mill on the Ottawa River and the temporary thermal plant that was or is built to serve residents businesses in your community.
Jeff Westeinde 20:02
Sure, yeah. So are, you know, like talking about the benefits, or sorry, the rationale behind district that if you have different energy cycles between neighboring buildings, you can share that energy. Our district energy system is actually based on that very same principle that Kruger operates a tissue mill, directly across from Parliament Hill. They, it's a very efficient, very successful mill. But as part of that process, they bring in millions of litres of water a day, heated up to over 40 degrees Celsius. Use it several times in their papermaking process, but then discharge it into the Ottawa River at about 30 degrees Celsius, anywhere from 25 to 30. So what we're doing is saying listen, you're discharging the millions of liters of hot water into the Ottawa River. Why don't we strip that heat so then what we're doing is we're taking it from 25 to 30 degrees down to seven to 10 degrees and discharging out into the Ottawa. River in our heating system or in the heating season. So that's the concept behind it's very rudimentary engineering, it's strictly heat transfer between water. So, so pretty straightforward from that point of view. What the temporary plane that you speak about is our district energy system. That backbone heating system at Kruger is not yet built that's getting built this season. However, we have users in our buildings right now. So, we have temporary plants that are providing that but the infrastructure for the district the pipes in the streets and hot and cold water system is there. So those temporary plants are going to operate for about another year, after which will be on our permanent system.
Dan Seguin 21:44
In addition to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving energy resilience. Is it fair to say that district energy deliver economies of scale in areas with high population? What are some of the short and long term benefits for the owner and end user alike? And how do these factor into the government carbon reduction targets?
Jeff Westeinde 22:12
Well, yeah, so the short term is if you can be more efficient, so if you have dense populations with different energy cycles, so different peaks and whatnot, as we talked about earlier, you need to spend less capital because you're peaking is at a lower level. And you're sharing energy between so that your overall initial energy utilization from the grid or from the gas system is lower because you're sharing more so overall that drives efficiency. And at the end of the day efficiency then drives lower greenhouse gas emissions and ideally, lower and more stable costs because your energy inputs are a lower percentage of the overall district. So say in our case, you if we're harnessing heat from Kruger, there are no escalation in the cost of that heat. It is waste industrial heat that otherwise wouldn't go anywhere. Whereas if we're connected to the Ontario grid, as you know, you know, costs have escalated very significantly. So that energy input if that is our key input, our energy costs are going to be higher. So we're fortunate that again, the combination of we sit in Ontario and in Quebec, so we have two different electrical and two different gas grids. We have waste heat and our cooling is going to come largely from the Ottawa River. So we have low cost inputs with waste heat and Ottawa River cooling. And we have four different grids we can tap into for alternative and for other energy if need be. So that then allows us to control our costs. So again, just an example of how you can drive efficiency and provide more price stability, while at the same time reducing emissions.
Dan Seguin 24:00
Okay. Do alternative energy sources like district energy reduce exposure to fluctuating energy prices? How are the rates/cost determined for residents? Are they comparable to current rates? And are they stable?
Jeff Westeinde 24:19
Yeah, so, yes, not all district energy systems are the same. Obviously, it depends on what those inputs are. But in the case of the Zibi community utility, our district energy system, but then our key inputs are that waste industrial heat and cooling base from the Ottawa River, both of which obviously have are stable. There's there is no Yeah, well, I shouldn't say we have some commercial transactions that go on without but not like the grid that allows us to decrease our reliance on the grid for other inputs. So to answer the question on rates, yes, our rates are comparable to market. And we've actually indexed them to the price of Quebec hydroelectricity. And for anyone that understands electrical grids, I would suggest that in North America, Quebec is likely the most stable grid in all of North America. I would say that it is a national utility for the province of Quebec. And I would say, you know, all Canadians are very proud of our healthcare and if they ever tried to take it away, there'd be riots in the streets. I would suggest that if anybody tried to raise electrical rates in Quebec, similar to what's happened Ontario, there would be even bigger riots in the streets. So, you know, we are expecting that will allow us to provide really stable pricing over the long term to our, to our customers.
Dan Seguin 25:47
Now, how important was it to find a strategic partner like Hydro Ottawa that had more than 100 years of experience and a strong track record to create safe and reliable utility infrastructure,
Jeff Westeinde 26:03
The partnership with hydro auto was critical. And again, consumer acceptance of that of the district energy system. You know, if you think about reliability if you're a consumer at Zibi, and you said, Okay, well what happens if my heating or cooling goes off? Who do I call if I see, well, you know, I am Jeff and here's my cell phone, you know, call me up at the cottage and I'll see if I can help you. That's not exactly reassuring. When you say 'Well, you call Hydro Ottawa" and they will is not who I would normally, you know, they, they're, they're, you know, the relative reliability stats of Hydro Ottawa better than me, but it's 99.999 something percent uptime, you know, 24 hour response, etc., etc. So, being able to bring that credibility of a utility operator to our district was absolutely critical for overall consumer acceptance and I would even say regulatory acceptance. You know, when we started talking about listen we're going to be moving hot and cold water in the you know energy in the form of hot and cold water around the around our community all municipal officials provincially "Okay, let you know if they did you have experience with this?" when we say well, Hydro Ottawa is our partner, it is an automatic acceptance of all know, okay, you guys are credible we understand let's carry on. So don't having Hydro Ottawa as a partner has been truly exceptional for us to be able to pioneer this,
Dan Seguin 27:29
Jeff, in addition to district energy, what else is he planning to feature in terms of other advanced technology and innovation to achieve zero carbon living for the residents and tenants on site?
Jeff Westeinde 27:46
Yeah, again, I know your podcast is not that long so I could talk forever about this, but I'll give you some key examples. So you know, again, trying to decrease reliance on carbon based transportation systems. So you know, the personal vehicle. You know, having car sharing, having excellent access to transit, when you're looking at other things that have a carbon footprint, how we build our buildings, the components that go into our buildings, the materials that go into our buildings, some are very carbon intensive. So again, we're targeting those that aren't carbon intensive. Even things like if you look at logistics, you know, when you buy a head of lettuce at the at the grocery store, the carbon it took to get that lettuce to the grocery store is embedded in that very product. So having urban agriculture, you'll see urban gardens, we've got a couple on site now. So all sorts of areas where anywhere where we can target things that are that use carbon to get delivered to or to, as part of the system that we're in. We're looking at incrementally changing all of those things. And those increments when they add up, turn into some big numbers. So that's really our focus.
Dan Seguin 29:06
Jeff, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready to go? What is your favorite word?
Jeff Westeinde 29:15
Serendipity. Yeah, I love serendipity. Because good things happen when you're not paying attention.
Dan Seguin 29:20
What is one thing you can't live without?
Jeff Westeinde 29:24
That's an easy one. My wife. I could be dead without that woman!
Dan Seguin 29:30
What is something that challenges you?
Jeff Westeinde 29:33
The word "No." I'm not good at taking the word 'No', it's how Zibi exists.
Dan Seguin 29:38
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Jeff Westeinde 29:41
I'd love to be a shapeshifter, be able to get inside different systems, different beings and understand how and why they work. I have endless curiosity. So I think being a shapeshifter would be amazing.
Dan Seguin 29:53
If you had to turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?
Jeff Westeinde 29:59
First, I would say smarten up and stop doing dumb things. But no, I think the one thing I would say is listen, relax. You know, something that has come to ring true with me, the Roman philosopher Seneca said, you know, "luck happens when opportunity meets preparedness". And I've been very fortunate to be lucky. But there's only one thing I can control in there. I can't control luck, I can't control opportunity. All I can do is control preparedness. So get prepared and just relax, pay attention, good things will happen.
Dan Seguin 30:31
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Jeff Westeinde 30:36
I love the fact that public health - so right now, you know, as you know, we're in the middle of a covid pandemic - public health is leading that across our country. But here in Ottawa, it's Vera Etches, I love the fact that our public health officials are starting to be included in our urban planning policies. So in Ottawa, Vera Etches participated in that. So remember I said earlier, you know, the way we plan is shortening the lifespan of our citizens. Public health starting to get involved in that. I'm really hoping that there will be an influence where they'll say, "if we planned communities this way, then here are the health benefits of it. If we do it that way, here's the health benefits." That's not currently happening. So I find that really exciting. Well, Jeff, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you and Zibi? How can they better connect? So, you know, we've been talking mostly about the Zibi project, which is one of the many things I do you know, if you go to Zibi.ca, then you can find more about Zibi and if you look to hello@zibi.ca anybody that wants to connect they're very good at getting people to me. I'm not much of a social media person, I do have a LinkedIn profile. I don't use it very often. But you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm good at responding to messages there as well.
Dan Seguin 32:09
Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.
Jeff Westeinde 32:13
Well, this was fun, Dan, and thank you for your interest in Zibi and one planet. That's fantastic.
Dan Seguin 32:20
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #24:
With a nation-wide commitment to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050 as well as an increase in climate change awareness, has eco-purchasing in Canada increased? In other words, are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health? Dianna Miller, Chief of ENERGY STAR shares about the ENERGY STAR program and how it works to not only motivate the production of energy-conscious products, but also to help homeowners and businesses make energy-conscious buying decisions.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:00
Hey everyone. Welcome to the summer rewind edition of the think energy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy Days of Summer, we're bringing back some blast from our podcast past, we'll be reintroducing some of the most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest, perhaps not a coincidence. But they're all focused on the future of the energy sector with themes like renewable energy, green innovation, and being eco conscious. So I hope you truly enjoy our summer rewind edition. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back September 6 to kick off another exciting season of the think energy podcast. I'm Dan Sega from hydro Ottawa, and I'll be hosting the think energy podcast. So here's today's big question. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders, as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned. as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the think energy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The think energy podcast. The demand for green buildings, electric vehicles, and renewable generation is changing the way we think about and use energy. So much, so it influences what we purchase. The demand is a result of the rising concern for climate change, which is creating a new reality for our planet, but also a new reality for brands and consumers. Consumers want clean technology solutions, sustainability, less pollution. And they want brands that are just as concerned about the environment as they are. More and more consumers want to do business with companies that are environmentally conscious. And they're using their wallet to send that message loud and clear. Now, chances are you likely know the ENERGY STAR brand, its logo has become the trusted symbol for energy efficiency products, particularly in the home appliance space. But did you know the ENERGY STAR certification extends to homes, buildings and industrial plants in the US alone, ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 3 billion metric tons since 1992. That's equivalent to an annual emission of over 600 million cars. And talk about brand recognition. In its recent survey, more than 90% of US households recognize the ENERGY STAR logo. So let's begin with today's big question. With an increase in climate change awareness. Has environmental purchasing increased meaning are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health. Joining us today I have from the Office of Energy efficiency. Diana Miller, Chief of Energy Star. Welcome, Diana. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Maybe you can start by providing our listeners with a quick overview of what it is that you do. And what is the Energy Star program.
Dianna Miller 03:49
So ENERGY STAR is a program that was created by the United States Environmental Protection Agency in Canada actually has administered it since 2001, via an agreement at its core ENERGY STAR is a binary label. So the presence of an ENERGY STAR label on a product or a new home an existing building or an industrial facility just designates that entity as energy efficient. So ENERGY STAR is basically a program where we do all of the work, we do the research and the homework and we kind of crunch all the numbers and come up with a really good way to show that a product is efficient. And then our stakeholders, our partners go out and certify those things products, homes, buildings and industrial facilities to those standards. And then they slap a label on it and it makes it really, really easy then for consumers and citizens to go and find the most energy efficient thing really quickly and reliably. So that's what the program is. And what I do, I have actually two functions. So I'm the brand manager for energy star in Canada so I just kind of help promote the brand and protect brand integrity. On behalf of the Government of Canada, I also administer the Energy Star program for products. So like I said before, we certify a lot of different things, including products, there's about 80 different product types that we certify. And so I also manage the products program element.
Dan Seguin 05:15
Very cool. That's where we connect is my job here is to preserve, protect and promote the brands. Right, so Okay. What is the role of the Energy Star program to achieve Canada's net zero emission future by 2050? And to build a net zero emissions economy? How important is it to expand the numbers of retrofits in a year? Last part of it? Lastly, how does the program help the environment?
Dianna Miller 05:45
Well, to start with the role of Energy Star, and achieving a net zero economy is, again, I'm going to go back to the simplicity of the Energy Star program. So ENERGY STAR is something that I think every Canadian has seen 80% of Canadians recognize and understand it. So ENERGY STAR is a really easy, accessible way for Canadians to take action on a day to day basis. And every tiny incremental action, whether it's buying a light bulb, a fridge, a heating system, a certified home or leasing space, in a certified office building, all of those tiny incremental actions add up to really, really big energy savings. So I want to talk about how the Energy Star program helps the environment, one of the key things that ENERGY STAR achieves is just doing the same amount of work, or performing the same functions using less energy. And whether you're looking at energy that's, you know, generated by coal, whether you're looking at Burning gas, or fossil fuels, or even clean energy like hydro energy, using less energy just means that that energy that you're not using can be used for other things. In Canada, while we do have a lot of very, very clean hydro energy, using too much of it during peak hours means that then all of a sudden, you've got not clean energy that has to kick in. And so if you use less of it, then you're not having to switch over to the not clean energy.
Dan Seguin 07:22
Yeah, I think we're gonna have to set ourselves up, though. Because on that storage will come into play. When we're talking about solar, when we're talking about wind, those will be two big players. And but to make those more efficient, you'll need the storage component to work with that also.
Dianna Miller 07:40
Oh, absolutely. You know, the other thing that I just like to point out is that ENERGY STAR isn't just about using less energy, I mean, it's definitely the key element of the program. So it's an Energy Efficiency Program. And using less energy potentially has has the role of less fossil fuel emissions. However, I think the other thing that we have to look at is ENERGY STAR wades into water territory. So the United States government administers a WaterSense program. And so when you're taking a look at the amount of water that a washer uses, or a dishwasher, ENERGY STAR really tries to cut back on those as well. You can also look at electronics and how they're trying to use less rare earth metals and trying to look at recyclability and things like that. So ENERGY STAR is about more than just energy use. It's definitely the primary function of the program. But definitely, we're looking at other things, even in terms of the controllability of a product. So if a product is connectable to, to the internet, then you know, you can control the product so that it's using less energy at a time where maybe there's dirty energy generation. So being able to connect to a product as a consumer or even as a utility, you know, you can reduce the amount of energy that a product is using when you're using fossil fuel generation.
Dan Seguin 08:59
Well, I just actually subscribed to Hydro Quebec through Hilo program, which is basically them setting up sensors all around the house, where they can actually go on a day where there's a bitter cold, and they will actually just via an email, send me send me a notification that they will bring down the temperature at home and am I okay with that? And then they incentivize you to do more.
Dianna Miller 09:26
That's right. And ENERGY STAR has built in principles of connectivity into a lot of their different product categories. They're moving in that direction with what they call the Smart Home Energy Management System, where they're, you know, working with service providers and utilities as well as manufacturers to kind of come up with an ideal scenario where a home can be more easily controlled and use less energy, especially at marginal periods where you know, you're worried about that fossil fuel energy generation,
Dan Seguin 09:53
what level of influence does the Energy Star label have on the purchasing decision of consumers
Dianna Miller 10:00
Over the last few years, ENERGY STAR Canada has. We do Public Opinion Research. I'll say that so every couple of years we put out a national survey, we try to figure out, you know, how aware Canadians are of the ENERGY STAR symbol of the program, if they understand what it means and that kind of thing. And one of the things that we started asking is, for people who have actually purchased an ENERGY STAR certified product or home, did that symbol affect that purchase decision? And overwhelmingly, the answer is, yes. So out of people that have purchased ENERGY STAR certified things in Canada in 2018, I think there was about 75% said it's because, or maybe not uniquely, because but definitely the symbol played a role that certification work.
Dan Seguin 10:45
Absolutely. Like you just look at Windows as an example.
Dianna Miller 10:48
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a really big one, especially in a lot of the country. Now, ENERGY STAR certified windows are incented by different provincial or utility incentive programs. Because we know that they perform better. And, you know, people go into a store, that's not even the symbol influences them. It's, you know, just the knowledge that they're better people go into a store and ask for them by name. So yeah,
Dan Seguin 11:15
how does the energuide program fit into this equation?
Dianna Miller 11:20
inner guide and ENERGY STAR complimentary programs. So now, just as a caveat, energuide is a symbol that or a rating program that exists also for vehicle labels, Soviet vehicle fuel consumption, as well as home energy consumption. So I'm speaking specifically about the integrated label on products. But the great thing about the Energuide label is, like I said, it complements the Energy Star label in that it's not a binary label. So where ENERGY STAR either is there or isn't there on major appliances in room air conditioners in Canada, it's required by law, so it's always there. And what it does is it tells you how that product that you're looking at performs among all of the products that exist in Canada. So you know that that there's a scale on it. And it's going to say the best performing product and the worst performing product, and there's an arrow that's going to tell you where the product that you're looking at right now, is in terms of everything else. Now, if it's an ENERGY STAR certified product, what's cool is that you're going to see an ENERGY STAR symbol on that label. So that you know that okay, the product is ENERGY STAR certified. Okay, and it performs here, I could perhaps be getting something even better than this. So I mean, if you're looking for the absolute best efficiency, you know, that energuide label is going to help push you even further than, you know, basic ENERGY STAR levels. So it's kind of cool. It's also going to kind of give you an idea of like I said, were in a product in a product class that product performs so that you know, you know how much room you have to move, you have a general idea of maybe the energy savings that could be achieved, and therefore your bills savings that could be achieved by moving to a more efficient product.
Dan Seguin 13:05
We're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today are multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?
Dianna Miller 13:31
I think for those of us that work in energy efficiency, everything is an opportunity. So absolutely, I mean, I see it as an as an opportunity for the Energy Star program. In fact, ENERGY STAR launched a pilot program a couple of years ago in Canada, to address this very phenomenon that, you know, multifamily buildings are really where we're moving. I mean, high density housing is good for everybody. But that's going to require much better construction practices. And that's where ENERGY STAR comes in, you know, ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings means that the that structure is going to perform 15% better in terms of efficiency than a building built to code. And again, you know, as code moves, that level moves as well. So, I mean, for a consumer again, quick and easy, right, you're looking at a building that's got that symbol on it, you know that you're going to be moving into unit in a building where your bills are going to be lower. So it's a no brainer for consumers. So we're really hoping that this this program takes off and and shows, you know, successful numbers. I think it's super great program for builders, and I'm really hoping that builders kind of catch the energy star bug and start signing on to this program, because it's consumers are looking for that right now. Consumers are looking for better options and they don't have it in that area right now. That's why ENERGY STAR has moved into that field. So a successful pilot means that we can move that program out into the rest of the country. And so that right now, like I said, it's localized in Ontario, and we really want to see it everywhere.
Dan Seguin 15:09
Is that something along the lines of what I think it was Quebec had no Volk, novo Kima is along that line.
Dianna Miller 15:16
So I think the Quebec program was more associated with I don't know that it was for new construction. So the thing with energy stars were we've created a, like a specification, I guess. So we're creating a standard that builders can use. And so it's kind of like a blueprint in a way. And that's why it's, I mean, I like to emphasize ENERGY STAR for new homes ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings, it's a program that's just as much for for builders as it is for consumers. Because it's giving builders an affordable, easy way, a reliable way to build energy efficient structures, things that consumers want, and there's a huge demand for it. So and then, not only that, but ENERGY STAR sells, right, everybody knows what it means.
Dan Seguin 16:05
Okay, now, we are seeing more and more cities or municipalities looking for ways to reduce costs and emissions. What makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings special?
Dianna Miller 16:18
Well, I want to go back to the foundation for Energy Star certified buildings. First, if I may, the idea of certifying a building as ENERGY STAR comes first from being able to measure the energy consumption of that building reliably. And so we have the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager building benchmarking tool. And that's a mouthful. In Canada, I'll try not to say it, I'm going to shorten to the term Portfolio Manager
Dan Seguin 16:46
At least you didn't use an acronym.
Dianna Miller 16:48
That's true. Yeah, that's government, people tend to do that a lot. But Portfolio Manager really rocks, like, I have to say, you know, we brought it into Canada, we created unique Canadian archetypes, for different building types. So you can right now I'll use school boards as an example. Because I mean, seriously, it's, it's just, it's great. So you've got like 600 schools or something like that, and, and between your best performing school and your worst performing school, if you're not really benchmarking the energy consumption of those schools, and they could all be built exactly at the same time by exactly the same builder and they're all performing differently, you're not going to know that unless you're actually measuring the energy use. So I have to say, that's the first step. And and governments are just as interested with Portfolio Manager as they are with ENERGY STAR certification. And in fact, all across Canada and the US, Portfolio Manager ratings are becoming mandatory. So that's a very, very important first step. And then of course, the next step is once you've started measuring your energy consumption, you can start making reliable improvements, you can start understanding how changing this or that or improving this or that it's going to affect your bottom line affect your score. And, of course, yes, shoot for the moon, you know, ENERGY STAR certified buildings are the top 25% in their class. And so, you know, you've got those 600 schools, and you've got a couple that are really performing well. Yeah, you know, making a few improvements can push them up into the top 25 percentile. And then the next thing you know, you've got a certified building. And that's, that's awesome. When you're looking at office space, particularly commercial buildings, those actually sell better, you know, and they're worth more. And so for property owners and managers, it's a really big deal. But for governments, I have to say I go back to portfolio manager and you know, just having a reliable rating, a reliable score, where you can compare one building to another is good for just about everybody.
Dan Seguin 18:52
Okay, Energy Star is a trusted brand that requires staying top of mind. We also know that brand health is increasingly being dictated through social media and digital channels. How do you manage brand consistency in an increasingly digital world that includes the influence of public sentiment and opinion? What can companies learn from ENERGY STAR?
Dianna Miller 19:20
Well, I'll start with brand health and and for me, that equates to brand integrity. I'm really lucky and that ENERGY STAR Canada is one country in a kind of an international network of Energy Star programs owned and managed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. So we're one element that said, you know, we are I am in charge of the integrity of the brand in in Canada. One thing that we do is we're very strict with how ENERGY STAR symbols can be used. So the US government has trademarked the symbol and all of the terms here in Canada. So right They're I think that's a huge, huge deal. And then we have, for example, a brand book, we have rules associated with how you can use those symbols in those terms. And as you know, Energy Star is a program where we sign partners onto the program and those partners when they're signing as partners in the program, can you define a partner? Sure. So an ENERGY STAR partner in Canada, we call them participants. It can be a manufacturer of a product that's certified as ENERGY STAR, it could be retailers of products that are certified, it could be home builders that build ENERGY STAR certified homes. Most utilities in Canada are ENERGY STAR participants. There are social housing organizations that are ENERGY STAR participants in Canada. And we're looking to the future where we can also sign on commercial building owners and operators, perhaps is ENERGY STAR partners. So an ENERGY STAR participant in Canada is someone who signs an agreement to promote the ENERGY STAR brand, and adhere to brand rules. And there's a number of other things that they do. But it's basically a collaborative agreement where, you know, we do a little bit and they do a little bit, and we all agree that the brand is first and foremost, the most important. So like I said, we have a brand book, we have the participant agreements. The other thing that we'd like to do is provide ready made promotional material that partners and participants can use to promote the brand. So that, you know, the brand is already used appropriately.
Dan Seguin 21:35
So common look and feel
Dianna Miller 21:36
exactly. And then we have you know, I mean, from, from my perspective, we also have a lot of product related brand integrity action. So you know, I'm going to go and I'm going to surf websites to see whether or not somebody is marketing ENERGY STAR certified lawn mowers, right. Because just so you know, we don't certify those. And, you know, I'm gonna go and take a look at whether or not our partners are using the symbols appropriately. So brand integrity is really, really important when you're talking about social media. The other thing is, like I said, you know, we, because we have partners, we depend on our partners to promote the brand just as much as we do. And again, that's providing you know, basic material, like the brand book, to help them understand how they can and can't use the brand, ready made promotional material that they can use so they can engage with us. So I think that goes a long way, and just being consistent. And I think that that's what really helps with consumer awareness and understanding, you know, we haven't changed a lot over the years, the symbol has been the symbol for just about ever.
Dan Seguin 22:38
How do you leverage technologies like video chat bots, to secure that stakeholder engagement?
Dianna Miller 22:47
Not well, yet. Okay, um, you know, we're government, we, we managed to get our energy star, unique ENERGY STAR accounts, about five years ago. So since then, we've been learning, you know, it's been a learning curve. For us, we're now at the point where I think we're pretty mature in our use of Facebook and Twitter, we're learning how to do a few cooler things, you know, we like to throw in animated GIFs. And we like to see what kind of healthy memes we can use to kind of shake things up a little bit. We also know our audience. Um, I think, you know, looking to the future, were trying to find ways to integrate better video, more video, more engaging video, you know, not just the same old, same old, we do shake up our content a little bit. And so that does help. But in terms of onboarding new things, and new technologies, I think the best thing that we can do right now is optimize what we have and and gradually move towards that. But right now, the again, we're government, so we can't really be the first early adopters. But we try not to stay too far behind the pack.
Dan Seguin 24:01
You're on Twitter, what platforms are you on?
Dianna Miller 24:03
so right now we have a French and English, Facebook, French and English Twitter. And in the very near future, we're going to be launching a LinkedIn showcase page under the Natural Resources Canada LinkedIn page. We do use occasionally Instagram, but it's via the Natural Resources Canada Instagram accounts. So energystar Canada doesn't have its own account yet. And we don't have a whole lot of video. So we don't, we don't really do anything via YouTube. But we do have a blog. And it's not an ENERGY STAR candidate blog. It's actually an energy efficiency blog, but I'd say majority of the content has a lot to do with Energy Star.
Dan Seguin 24:43
Okay, now we're going old school with rapid fire questions. Are you ready, sir? Okay. What's your biggest challenge?
Dianna Miller 24:53
professionally, HR. It's hard to it's hard to quickly hire qualified people.
Dan Seguin 24:59
Okay. What makes your brand unique? big sigh?
Dianna Miller 25:08
Um, well, there's a lot of unique things. I mean, you know, energy store is a consumer focused brand. So we're really, really targeting people who are consumers, but it's owned by the government. That's kind of weird in and of itself, I find that that's a very unique aspect. And when that makes it challenging to manage,
Dan Seguin 25:23
what's your department's greatest accomplishment?
Dianna Miller 25:25
Okay, I'm gonna go old school on this one. Okay. I think the greatest accomplishment was back in the 1800s, when we were the geological survey of Canada. I think it's absolutely amazing that the people that worked for the department, then were able to, without satellites, map the topography of what was then Canada, I think it's super cool, what, you know, what they were able to accomplish. And in fact, my younger son was named after Sir William Logan. Okay. And not the x men? No, no, although, you know, he likes to think he was and I just let him. Okay. How do you measure success for your programs? So, um, when I first came to the Office of Energy efficiency, what drew me to it was the fact that at the time, we were running a building retrofit program, and account managers were measured on the petajoules. So pedajoule, being a fuel agnostic measure of energy consumption. So if you were to, you know, sign on, you know, a series of buildings to undertake energy efficiency retrofits, you know, and they could achieve X number of pedajoules of energy savings, that was a pretty big deal. And I still go back to that, I have to say, you know, Energy Star is responsible ENERGY STAR for products is responsible for, you know, between four and a half and five pedajoules of energy savings in Canada per year. I, that's pretty amazing. You know, and I still go back to that.
Dan Seguin 26:57
Okay, very good. Thanks. How do you balance traditional versus social media? What are some of the successful techniques, you guys developed to boost engagement on social media and increase organic, non paid engagement.
Dianna Miller 27:13
So we still do a lot of old school. Partly because ENERGY STAR has a couple of very different audiences, like I said, we're a consumer program. But you know, one of our biggest audiences is our partners, right? Okay. without, without the manufacturers that make these products and design these products without the retailers that sell them, and the utilities that help us push them, you know, we're nothing, they're the ones that actually do the bulk of the work. And so that means that I want to make sure that I'm reaching them. And so we do a lot of traditional work with, you know, just email blasts, picking up the phone and calling them, you know, webinars like, we really do try to work with our partners to make sure that they've got what they need to do great promotions and to push the brand. And then when I look at my consumer focus, absolutely, you know, that's where we try to move into the social media space and be a little bit more innovative. And I think, depending on the audience, our techniques are a little bit different. So one of the techniques that we like when it comes to and just so you know, all of our advertising or all of our engagement is non paid. advertising, advertising is kind of not really possible for us. So you know, everything is organic, one of the things that we'd like to do is, like I said, work with our partners, so our partners get a heads up every week as to what kind of social media activity we're anticipating. We give them heads up well in advance if we're doing major promotions. To give you a great example, we have a promotion that we've done in the last couple of years, called the 12 days of Energy Star. And so leading up to Christmas, probably two or three months away from Christmas, we reach out to our partners and say, Hey, you got anything you want to give away? You know, we'll facilitate that for you. If you want to give something away to consumers. We've got this great, you know, promotion, where consumers can just kind of follow us and like and share, you already have all the eyeballs. That's right. And then and then it's just drawing more attention to our partners, ENERGY STAR certified products. It's a great win for consumers, they're learning something about those products, and then you have an opportunity to win them. So I mean, our followership really increases during that time period. I mean, in terms of our engagement, it's, it blasts just about every record out of the water, in terms of engagement with government, social media, I mean, you know, you got to put the bar where it belongs. But that said, you know, it's it, I think, little tiny things like that, that are that are innovative, kind of get attention of consumers, they kind of keep them on their toes a little bit. And it also is a really great one for our partners because they like to engage with us. It really it Kind of leverages what they're already doing. And so they can amplify our message and vice versa.
Dan Seguin 30:09
How about sharing some simple tips or strategies for our listeners, so they can maybe foster greater I'll say online awareness, but also to keep their audiences engaged? if it's it could be digital, but how do you how do you make that? How would what would you share?
Dianna Miller 30:26
So one of the things that we like to do? First of all, we were super realistic about what we can and can't do, right? So we know what our limits are. And we also know who our audiences are. So I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not probably going to try and reach the 15 year olds, right, or I know who is already going to be interested in Energy Star. I also know that, you know, the greenies the people that are super, super sold on Energy Star, they might be more likely to amplify what we're doing. But I don't know that I'm going to change their behavior, because it's kind of already what we want. So really being serious about who our audience is, and isn't, is also helpful, because I'm not trying to cast a really, really wide net. And staying true to the brand. So, you know, we know what ENERGY STAR is and what it means we know what the look and feel of energy star is, we know that it has to be accessible, we know that it has to be wholesome, it has to be helpful. So just kind of really sticking to that type of look and feel for the brand. But then shaking things up a little bit. So because we know who our audience is, you know, we're happy to throw in a few cat memes, or great or, you know, dogs in a dishwasher or whatever, like I, you know, it's we do want to be a little bit fun, we can't really be edgy, but that doesn't, that doesn't keep us from, you know, making people smile, being a little bit silly sometimes. So, you know, throwing a wrench in the gears as we can being government. But the other thing, like I said, and I and I keep going back to this, because it's so so, so important. We really do rely on partners and partnerships and engagement with like minded organizations and individuals. We're looking at a pilot right now where we're going to start working with influencers. So like minded individuals that you know, feel that energy efficiency is important for Canada and are willing to amplify our message. Because it means something to them. And so, you know, we're looking to maybe be a little bit more innovative and a little bit more creative. But our bread and butter is really knowing who our audiences and what they want from us. Energy Star sells itself in that it already puts money back into people's pockets. It's already recognized by governments and utilities. And so it's, it's, you know, the subject of a lot of incentive programs and rebates. So that in and of itself draws a lot of eyeballs. And then what we do is just okay, we know that people are there to save money. Great. So here's some more tips. Here's other things you can do.
Dan Seguin 32:59
Good. I I'm assuming that you travel a lot within within your job, sometimes. Yeah. If you had to book some, some time on a plane, and you would be in a position to select your dream seatmate. who would it be and why?
Dianna Miller 33:19
Okay, this is gonna be a really boring answer. It would be somebody who falls asleep just like I do. I mean, seriously, like, if my flight is over three hours. I like to have a window seat. I stick my head on the bulkhead, and I and I literally, I just, I put in earplugs. I do, like, I'm so boring. I was
Dan Seguin 33:37
not expecting this. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I hope you enjoyed the old school rapid fire we had a few seconds ago. I'll give it a shot again. All right, with a few more Beatles or Drake, Drake. Cats or dogs? Definitely dogs, scotch or wine? Neither. Okay. Yoga, or CrossFit. I don't exercise.
Dianna Miller 33:58
Okay.
Dan Seguin 34:01
I'm allergic. Okay, Diana, we've reached the end of the podcast. So thank you so much for joining us today. If someone wanted to reach out and connect, how would they do it?
Dianna Miller 34:12
My best advice is to go and I'm not just saying this to brush people off either. It's to go to to go to one of our social media accounts and inbox us or to go to energy startup dc.ca and contact us that way. And the reason being because there's somebody on my case to answer them because somebody actually manages the cap, and they can make sure that I get back to people.
Dan Seguin 34:34
Okay, okay, good. That's fair. And in closing, folks, from homeowners to small businesses, right through industrial buildings, programs are available to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and to help protect our planet tomorrow. And for the future. Check out the ENERGY STAR website. I will have the link on the show notes. Again, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The thinkenergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast Be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #33:
Compared to conventional methods of energy generation, like fossil fuels, greenhouse gases emitted from renewables are little-to-none; making them the cleanest, most viable solution to prevent environmental degradation. In this episode, we invite Brandy Giannetta, Senior Director at Canadian Renewable Energy Association, to discuss renewable energy and the realistic strategies for increasing its supply to permanently replace the remaining carbon-intensive energy sources in Canada.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone. I'm Dan Seguin from hydro Ottawa. And I'll be hosting the think energy podcast. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. We've all heard the saying 'it's not easy being green'. But when it comes through renewable generation, is that true? With all the scientific evidence out there, being a climate change denier is becoming more and more synonymous with being a flat-earther. It's clear that humans have been polluting our atmosphere with carbon dioxide and other global warming emissions. NASA, the World Health Organization and the United Nations say we have to change the way we live, work and play. As we face our own extinction, what is the answer? Do we have the courage to be green? Are we okay with it not being easy. That brings us to renewable energy. How easy or difficult is it? How does it improve our health, environment and economy? Where is Canada at? And are we on track to becoming a global climate leader? Are we leveraging renewable energy within the electricity system. And do we have enough new renewable capacity to power our energy needs compared to conventional methods of generation like fossil fuels, greenhouse gases emitted from renewables our little to none, making them the cleanest, most viable solution to prevent environmental degradation. Renewable sources of electricity have powered Canada for more than a century. According to Natural Resources Canada, renewable energy sources currently provide about 17% of Canada's total primary energy supply, with wind and solar as the fastest growing in the country. So here's today's big question. What is a realistic strategy to increasing the supply of renewable energy so that we can permanently replace the remaining carbon intensive energy sources in Canada. And what would the global impact be? Joining me today is Brandy Giannetta. From the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, Brandy is a regional director responsible for promoting, communicating and advocating for adoption of the associations policies, with political representatives, members of government, media, and other key stakeholders and decision makers. Brandy, welcome to the show. Maybe start us off by talking about the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. its mandate and why it's important for Canada.
Brandy Giannetta 03:46
Sure thing! Well the Canadian Renewable Energy Association: We are a national Industry Association is we we see ourselves as the voice for wind energy, solar energy and energy storage solutions, here in Canada with the goal of powering Canada's energy future. So our association really works to create the conditions for modern energy solutions vis-à-vis stakeholder advocacy, public engagement at several different levels. So we are a multi Technology Industry Association and we are new. We are looking again to provide that unified voice for renewable energy as well as energy storage across Canada. So we're the product of uniting what was the Canadian Wind Energy Association with what was the Canadian solar industry association so CANWEA and CANSIA our well-known names as having had decades of advocacy in Canada on behalf of the wind sector in the solar sector in Canada. And now we're one new expanded Industry Association, so very exciting, which also now includes, of course, energy storage. So that's in recognition of that pivotal role that energy storage is going to play alongside those renewable technologies as we look to transform Canada's energy mix.
Dan Seguin 04:59
What is the Canadian Renewable Energy Association's role in transforming Canada's energy mix?
Brandy Giannetta 05:08
Right? So Well, our new joint venture as one's association is really going to enable our members as well as the association itself to secure what we think is going to be a larger piece of the fat future energy pie that could normally have been achieved as single technologies or single entities. So our technologies having common interests in common characteristics will with respect to that policy, energy policy, you know, climate policy, different markets and regulatory frameworks throughout Canada, and really advocating within those commonalities to support the deployment of all of the technologies or solutions. So I didn't mention in the front that we have over 300 members within our association that represent that full scope of the sector. So we're really uniquely positioned to do that as an industry association, but I see some really sort of specific aspects of how we will do that. In what our strategy will entail. And I alluded to a little bit around the advocacy side, providing access to credible and timely information, and industry engagement. So that's an internal process, as well as an F front facing sort of public facing engagement role that will play. So as a national Industry Association, as I mentioned, we will be active at the federal level from an advocacy perspective, but will we're also present in multiple jurisdictions across Canada. So we advocate for policies that focus on that transition to a clean economy, but it's powered by renewable energy solutions. So that's really the key there. What are what are one of the things we'll be working toward is to create new opportunities, but also to remove the existing barriers that are stopping us from realizing those, those solutions and ultimately, that will enhance the deployment of our technologies throughout the country, and what we really consider to be safe and sustainable, environmentally friendly manner, but also a big part of that advocacy side and credible information and front facing side of what we do will be to increase public awareness of our technologies as they stand. But also, most importantly, the benefits that they provide that they're already providing to communities throughout Canada. And across the future, the potential to do even more. So federally, we have, you know, number one priority is to make sure that we're well positioned to contribute to economic recovery, particularly in a COVID situation that we're in right now. But also as a unified voice for the renewable side and energy storage, we're going to really try to help navigate Canada to an emissions reduction targets, we're going to create good jobs, we're going to stimulate the economy, you know, we're going to be present in urban centers and rural centers and indigenous communities. So we have so much value to offer. And as a collective effort, we're really going to try to influence those public policies that are really energy focused and economic stimulus focus to be able to do that. And we can do it because they'll probably say this a lot. We're a really scalable set of resources and when you put us all together, we're really well suited to power that transition.
Dan Seguin 08:03
How is your association positioned to deliver clean, low cost, reliable, flexible, and scalable solutions for Canada's energy needs?
Brandy Giannetta 08:14
Well, I'm glad you said it first, because I think I'll be repeating myself a lot, because that's the key. We're low cost, we're reliable. You know, we offer flexible, scalable solutions. So we have a headquarters in Ottawa, we're nationally, you know, present. But we also have people in the key regions across Canada from east to west and centrally and connect in Toronto. And we definitely look to influence regionally regional policies as well as national policies. And we definitely have a public facing communication side where we're advocating for energy solutions that will leverage the value proposition that renewables and energy storage provide together. So we're going to have what I talked about a little earlier with that internal forum for dialogue for our members that enables us to really collaborate provided opportunities for the stewardship of our technologies but also the growth of the industry across Canada and Canadian economies. So renewable energy and energy storage, as I noted, have a really important and central role to play as we transform our Canadian energy mix. And we see electricity markets adapting to these transformational demands to not only decarbonize, but as a result, electrify new sectors with clean electricity resources. So that reality has really been a huge driver in that tremendous new market opportunity for renewable energy and energy storage together. As we sort of get more comfortable with what that transition looks like and what it entails, our electricity system here in Canada is really going to need increased, actually, I would say significantly increased amounts of renewable energy, energy storage and at the utility scale. So our grids need to be powered by clean supply of renewables backed up by energy storage, and we need to make sure that they remain affordable, reliable, flexible, and scalable, as you noted, so that's going to mean, you know, large utility scale deployment of renewables and energy storage, but also a significant uptake and sort of mobilization of those behind the meter application. So distributed energy resources, for example. And putting that new collaborative framework in place like we've done at our association, is going to fully be able to allow us to fully leverage that opportunity.
Dan Seguin 10:23
Let me ask you this. Is the renewable energy industry primed to enter a new phase of growth driven largely by increasing customer demand and cost competitiveness? Are you seeing a culture shift?
Brandy Giannetta 10:38
Definitely, yes, there has been and it's, it's, I would say, Now more than ever, that we are realizing that culture shift and we're starting to see things materialize as a result of that shift. So ultimately, the needs and the wants of Canadian consumers have evolved but they're continuing to evolve. So you know, energy technologies: these aren't the only thing. It's markets that are innovating. The costs are coming down, as we all know, to a significantly affordable level. Business models as a result are also changing, not just here in Canada, but globally. So it's a global trend. It's not unique to Canada, we are well poised to follow those global trends and capitalize on the learnings and advancements of technology as well as the market and business structures that have evolved as well. So renewable energy and energy storage as solutions. Focused approaches are really increasingly contributing to those electricity grids and energy systems at a large scale, which in that what that means is that we're enhancing the reliability aspect and offerings, the flexibility of the technologies. And because we're super scalable, as I told you, I'll talk about that a lot, because it's certainly an attractive aspect of the advocacy side. The scalability of our energy production and use in Canada and abroad is really a factor there because we can do it at whatever scale needed for whatever system You know, is being sought. So a consciousness about the environment continues to grow alongside that. So we got energy policy and economic stimulus, but we also have environmental policy and the drivers for decarbonisation, and electrification of the sectors that aren't traditionally powered by electricity, like cars and transportation like but a large scale as well as buildings are really increasing the demand for energy solutions that are non-emitting affordable, scalable, flexible, and all of those great things. And that's something that obviously our industries can provide. So our vision really, ultimately is to ensure that renewable energy being solar and wind and energy storage on top of that are playing that central role as we transform the mix so that we can continue to provide those solutions across the board.
Dan Seguin 12:43
Randy, do you believe that renewables like wind and solar can help deliver the Clean Power jobs needed for sustainable economic delivery?
Brandy Giannetta 12:55
For sure, I mean, the calls for an economic recovery right now that are grind Clean Energy and Climate Action are increasingly growing and becoming more prevalent across the across the globe. We've got the International Energy Agency, for example, who called this a historic opportunity, you know, despite the fact that we're in a global pandemic, and there are many crises to manage. We're taking our cues from the International Energy Agency as a proper agency seeking, you know, recognition that we have an opportunity upon us that is historic and in its nature, the International Monetary Fund as well has its leadership has come out to say that we must do everything within our power to make it a green recovery. So right here in Canada, we in particular, are signatories to a public letter, which has asked Canadian governments to pursue a resilient recovery to the COVID situation in particular. So we've got hundreds of signatories representing over a you know, I think over 2000 now, Canadian companies that are right here, you know, headquarters here in Canada that have signed that letter seeking campaign. In order to pursue federal and provincial governments to commit to a clean recovery and resilience plan, so the the renewable energy sector as well as energy storage industries, we're making a case for those policies, energy policies, economic stimulus, packaging, recovery policies that are, you know, threefold, we need to make sure that they're economically timely and long lasting, so right time, right place, and that they are sustainable, making sure that they're environmentally sound. So there needs to be that environmental sustainability attached to those policies. And then eminently feasible, they have to be practical, realistic and actually implementable with a proven success here in Canada or elsewhere. So that we can capitalize on that and truly, you know, make that history that the International Energy Agency has referred to. So our federal government stimulus and recovery efforts in particular, I think our focus right now for us because we think that those efforts can create jobs, they can spur clean tech innovation. They will encourage economic diversification across many sectors, not just the energy sector, but also ultimately we're going to cut carbon pollution while doing that and why not because that illness causing you know, air pollution is something that we can tackle at the same time while we grow our economy. And really what we're looking to do is make Canada more resilient country, and we want to do it on the back of our energy sector. So we really believe that's important. And we do believe that those initiatives taken in support of economic recovery also allow us to address all those significant other challenges like climate change. So it's really important that we invest in wind energy and solar energy and in energy storage at appropriate scales and in appropriate locations, so that we can deliver the jobs, the economic benefits, making sure that today we're realizing those benefits, and then building out that longer term infrastructure that's sustainable, it's going to provide a really strong foundation for a lot more investment down the road. And again, jobs economic activities going to all spur as we as we build out those little as of tomorrow,
Dan Seguin 16:01
so climate adaptation and resilience stand out as rapidly emerging areas of employment as a result of climate change impacts, what types of careers are in demand? And at what rate are jobs in clean energy sector growing?
Brandy Giannetta 16:20
That's a great question because you know, the numbers are there. So we know the stats, and we can say it all those figures. And I'll talk a little bit about that. But the jobs are exciting. And there's no limit to the types of jobs one of the greatest stats that I love. And I check it out every year as the annual numbers come out of the US in particular is the wind turbine technicians and solar technicians that has continuously year over year over the past several years, ranked as one of the fastest growing occupations in the United States. So that's really exciting because that resonates here in Canada as well as we build out our industry. In fact, we did a wind energy supply chain study in Alberta, a few years back and it really detailed the breakdown of the jobs required just for a wind farm in particular And it was varied from the very, you know, technical and professional engineering requirements, geotechnical type requirements siting and negotiation of land agreements, and the regulatory advocacy work as well as environmental side of that. There's also, you know, the broader procurement construction side and you know, transportation logistics, you know, setting up a crane and having that that broader service industry attached to the evolution of the sector. So it's really a significant cross section of very technical and professional quality career type positions, research driven things from environmental sustainability, and then the, you know, the heavy lifting of the transportation and construction side of things. So there's a lot of, we're seeing offshoots of service jobs as well. And one of the large one of the aspects of the solar side, especially behind the meter, and that large uptake of solar installations behind the meter has created a lot of opportunities is very labor intensive. And we're seeing from the solar industry, significant numbers on manufacturing, sales, distribution and wholesale careers. We've got the installation community as well across Canada growing at an exponential rate, operations and maintenance will remain a significant portion of a sophisticated workforce. And then as I said, that offshoot service industry that supplies the services to those things. So as you can see, it's not a shortlist of jobs. It is, is a varied and like I said, extensive list of job opportunities that will continue to evolve and grow. Now, if you want to talk about statistics, the rate that it's growing at, we have already over 300,000 people employed in the clean energy sector in Canada. So that number has continued to grow by close to 5% every year, and it's slated to continue to do so which just to give you some perspective is about a third faster than Canada's economy as a whole and its growth rate, which is just under 4%. So by 2030, the projections that we're relying on today show us that there will be over a half a million Canadians employed and gainful full time lucrative careers in the clean energy sector, across the country. And that's going to be, you know, thanks in part to continued commitment to climate policies, to programs that are supporting robust clean economy type stimulus, and that growth rate will continue to evolve as a result. So it's very good news,
Dan Seguin 19:21
Brandy, in a world where distributed energy resources are increasingly valued. I'd love to hear your views on both the wind and solar value proposition as compelling options and how customers can more actively manage their demand.
Brandy Giannetta 19:39
Right? Well, I have to go back to the old you know, the the reference to scalability, wind energy, solar energy, even energy storage - extremely scalable. What that means, as I as I noted earlier, is that these technologies, you know, they're well positioned to transform our energy system, but they can provide solutions at a micro level or a macro level. So at the micro level, distributed energy resources can be deployed in a number of ways to empower the customers that are seeking those technologies. And then of course, then scaled according to a very unique set of needs as defined by the customers themselves. And they're affordable. So more and more energy customers of all types, as I think I said this already, or they're seeking, you know, clean, affordable, safe, all of those all of those buzzwords and properties and principled approaches to pursuing these technologies as solutions. And ultimately, they're less and less focused on a single technology to provide it. Is it smart? Does it make sense does it fit all those boxes being checked, you know, whether that's wind, solar or storage at the scale that's required. That's really that's the value of that as a solution of these technologies as a solution option, and they're multifaceted. So I think that really there's definitely clear public desire, obviously for clean and affordable as we've noted many times, but those solutions behind the meter, so smaller scale applications, Like rooftop solar panels, personalized home energy storage systems, things like that are going to continue to evolve and provide those solutions at other larger rate. And the innovation behind those distributed energy resources is really what's, you know, allowing us to be poised to meet the demands of today's customers, but we evolve those offerings for the future needs and wants as well. So that transition again, clean, renewable sources, is very important. And the impact for the consumer and ultimately, our economy and environment are what's really driving the value proposition there.
Dan Seguin 21:33
As solar and wind power come closest to meeting three key energy consumer priorities—cost-effectiveness, decarbonization, and reliability—what role will they play with microgrids and self-sufficiency?
Brandy Giannetta 21:50
Oh, great question. Again, all those buzzwords but important ones right. They're really principled realities and, you know, criteria that we're aiming towards So the successful and enhanced uptake of micro grids and self-sufficiency will be motivated as long as we continue to meet those principles and those criteria. So remember flexible, scalable, and portable. So we've got a micro level, you know, distributed energy resource, and we can deploy it in a number of ways. So I talked a little bit about in the previous question about, you know, based on what the customer's needs and wants are. So, you know, some really, you know, tangible examples of that are converting remote communities that aren't grid connected, so they have no wires and no transmission access. And they've been running on diesel generators for decades for generations really. And we're going to convert those to sustainable micro grids, we're going to use solar panels, we're going to use industrial size storage, whether that's batteries or otherwise, and maybe even a wind turbine or two, if it makes sense. You do it to scale. And now you've got a remote community that's self-generating, you know, non-emitting, and it's quite independent. And that's, that's a success story in and of itself. Distributed energy resources, can really promote increased energy self-sufficiency. And through other examples that are a little simpler even like deployment of rooftop solar in neighborhoods, you know, we're going to use it to heat your house your water instead of the electrical or gas hot water heater, maybe you're using it to heat your pool. So you're not running you know, another gas line or gas system in your urban areas, but also providing electricity more broadly like bigger installations on hospitals and colleges and universities and schools like that municipal buildings, all of those are all you know, fall into the bucket of distributed energy resources which promote self-sufficiency and ultimately, renewable energy powered things like charging stations for electrical vehicles is enhanced. You know, I would say ultimately, self-sufficiency, proper and enhanced reliability go hand in hand because you can couple that with energy efficiency, electric vehicles, charging as well as discharging and smart grids and even certain demand response measures. So the list goes on and on. You know, we can unpack them but though it's quite, I would say quite lucrative. And again, it all comes back to the fact that scales scalability.
Dan Seguin 24:09
Brandy, can you help me understand what the role of storage plays in the deployment and advancement of renewable energy?
Brandy Giannetta 24:17
Oh, sure. Well, on a larger scale like utility side, the technologies renewables can be deployed in complimentary ways to supply and support our broader electricity grids. Or they can be used as a co-located or hybrid resource with facilities like wind projects, wind farms and solar projects. Adding energy storage in order to firm that utility scale offering of energy to the grid, so firm power, or capacity, if you will, but by working together, the renewables and energy storage present a broader and more diverse range of not just firm energy offerings, but for customer seeking other things that diversity in tech technology provides scale grid services and other products for lack of a better word to the grid operator. And then ultimately, if you're looking at a smaller scale to the customer, as standalone efforts to enhance the needs that they have identified, sometimes that's offsetting their peak demand use and other aspects and applicability of the energy storage component can be used that way. So, the scale varies large scale utility grid offering to smaller scale behind the meter solutions is a really energy storage in particular, as a technology has a central role to play in that in that transformation to be able to make those solutions tangible and affordable and implementable.
Dan Seguin 25:48
Now for the million dollar question, how is Canada faring as a global climate leader? In your opinion, what is the low hanging fruit and what has the potential to have the biggest impact to the industry and maybe the world?
Brandy Giannetta 26:06
Well, sure, Canada is in a great position already, because we are starting from a spot of having strong renewable and non-emitting electricity base. So there remains also a massive untapped potential for wind, solar and hydro resources to continue to be developed. And so I would say that we're as one of the best countries or countries best position to eliminate our fossil fuel use any electricity generation in particular. And then the abundance of our resources means that we're then also well positioned to support significant increase in non-emitting or renewable electricity supply to power those other fossil fuel intensive industries, like I mentioned earlier transportation and buildings. So we do need to move away from fossil fuels for those other industries as well. And we can do it on the back of the electricity sector in Canada, as it currently stands, but we can also evolve that significantly because we already have the resources. And I think the number is associated with deep decarbonisation and vision that we need to increase our electricity production by two or three times to reach our sort of net zero GHG emission targets. And we already, like I said, have all of those resources available to us to do that. So it's a matter of the will and, you know, transitioning to that, as a global leader, we can really, I think, step ahead of the crowd and shine.
Dan Seguin 27:26
What is exciting you about the renewable energy industry right now?
Brandy Giannetta 27:33
Well, we're on the right side of history, we always have been but now more than ever, I think the stars are really aligning, you know, we've got decreasing costs, our customer demand and knowledge is growing at a rate. I don't know that any of us could have predicted a few you know, a decade ago, that emissions free zero marginal cost fuel, it's never going to go away. It’s here to stay. It’s scalable, it's flexible, and it’s decentralized. All of those buzzwords, which we can unpack any single one of them. That's exciting. But really put them all together. And I don't know, how exciting is that? Like, I don't know if I'm if I'm making the assumption, but I think it speaks for itself, like we are in a really good place right now, for all those reasons, and we need to be excited about it.
Dan Seguin 28:15
Here's my last question, Brandy. What keeps you up at night?
Brandy Giannetta 28:21
Well, you know, I think governments across Canada, you know, they need to take the politics out of the energy sector. And the decision making processes really need to be based on fair and transparent competition. You know, we've all, you know, leveling that playing field for us all and taking the politics out of it, because that decision making process really needs to be aimed at providing the best solution to clearly define problems without the politics and that's not to say there's not a role for governments and energy policy. There certainly is, but sound policy, stable investment signals, those things need to outweigh the politics in order to realize that, you know, progress and innovation it’s so ripe for the picking. And I think our good friend Geddy Lee, a Canadian icon, says it best when he said "progress has no patience, but something's got to give." So those are the things that I stay up at night thinking about.
Dan Seguin 29:11
Brandy, we've reached the end of another episode of the thick energy podcast. How can our listeners learn more about you and your association? How can they connect?
Brandy Giannetta 29:23
Well, like I said, we are new. So we've got a brand new shiny website up and running. It's renewablesassociation.ca. We're active on Twitter and LinkedIn, mostly, we've got Facebook and maybe a couple of other social channels. But we're going to continue to be evolving those sites over the summer in both English and French, which is very exciting and very important to us as a national Industry Association to be fully bilingual. So I would say that your best efforts reach out vis-à-vis our website. We're a small but mighty team, and so we're listed there and you can contact us centrally through the website is probably your best bet.
Dan Seguin 29:57
Again. Thank you so much for joining me today, I hope you had a lot of fun.
Brandy Giannetta 30:02
I sure did. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.
Dan Seguin 30:07
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #22:
Canada’s Electric Highway is now a reality. Petro-Canada recently made a bold move to equip 50 of its retail outlets along the Trans-Canada Highway with electric vehicle fast chargers. This is a great start, but EV owners need a consistent, convenient, reliable and fast means of recharging their vehicles - wherever they travel. Al Cormier, CEO & President of Electric Mobility Canada, shares his take on the future of electric vehicle adoption.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:00
Hey everyone. Welcome to the summer rewind edition of the think energy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy Days of Summer, we're bringing back some blast from our podcast past, we'll be reintroducing some of the most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest, perhaps not a coincidence. But they're all focused on the future of the energy sector with themes like renewable energy, green innovation, and being eco conscious. So I hope you truly enjoy our summer rewind edition. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back September 6 to kick off another exciting season of the think energy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to the think energy podcast. Canada's electric highway is now reality. Petrol Canada recently made a bold move to equip 50 of its retail outlets along the Trans Canada highway with electric vehicle fast chargers. EV owners can now drive from the Rockies to the Maritimes. It's nothing short of monumental for Canadian Evie owners. Cities are also investing in infrastructure to facilitate their citizens transition towards electric vehicles. More and more drivers are choosing EV's or electric vehicles, leaving fossil fuel behind and turning to electricity to power their vehicles. EV owners need a convenient, reliable and fast turnaround in recharging their vehicles. So here's today's big question. Canada's electric highway is a great start. But how do we create a favorable environment for Evie adoption? My guest today on the think energy podcast is Al Cormier, CEO and president of electric mobility Canada, here to talk about barriers and opportunities that exist for the future electrification of our cities. Welcome out. Al, please tell us a bit about your organization. And its mandate.
Al Cormier 02:57
Hey, electric mobility Canada is unique. And that is the only Canadian Industry Association dedicated fully to the promotion of electricity and transportation. I founded it in 2005. And I retired from it in 2011. And I'm back at it again. Because the CEO just retired, they're looking for another person. And so it's a fast growing association of about 200 members coast to coast. We represent people from the industry side that build and electric vehicles, product services, software, etc. People on the electrical utility side like hydro hydro, people are the government side, we have several government agencies, federal, provincial, municipal fleet managers, not for profit organizations, EV societies, these are individuals that support EV. So it's a great group. And everybody in the same tent will be addressed all kinds of issues,
Dan Seguin 04:13
National sales of EV's sit at around 3.5%. What are your recommendations to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles in Canada?
Al Cormier 04:25
Yeah, 3.5% is the percentage of new light duty vehicles sales that are electric. So there's over 20 million light duty vehicles in Canada. And at the end of the third quarter of 2019. We had about 150,000 electric vehicles in Canada. So it's a long way to go to replace those fee but that's not impossible down the road. So The market shares two and a half percent. But the percentage of sales was great greater in Quebec and British Columbia, which are very supportive programs for electric vehicles. The three and a half percent is a national number. British Columbia was 10%, Quebec was 7%. So you have to look up but those provinces are doing to promote electric vehicle sales. But they both have a federal financial incentive program. For the buyers of EVs, they have programs to install all kinds of EV charging stations or infrastructure, a lot of public awareness programs. They have bylaws at the local level that require homes to be built rarely for EVs provincial regulations mandating the auto sector to sell a percentage of the sales being newbies, so a host of actions that can help the set of market to be in a good condition for the sale of EVs. Now, last March, a federal budget announced a national incentive program for EV buyers that took place in May, was implemented in May last year, at a bump the sales nationally expect the results final results for 2019. And the next week or so. And I expect that the three and a half percent may well be closer to four and a half 5%.
Dan Seguin 06:42
Quick question now. You alluded to light duty vehicles, the category what are the categories are there
Al Cormier 06:51
light duty vehicles, passenger vehicles, pickup trucks, that kind of stuff. Then, of course, we get into commercial trucks, you know, bigger vehicles, different classes of trucks, there's eight classes of trucks. We get into transit buses. We're going into school buses, we get into charter buses. And we get into off road electrification. We have electrification in the Marine side and pleasure boats, and snowmobiles. We have electrification in the farming level agricultural machinery as well. The mining sector particularly helpful in the underground, where the ventilation problems are an issue. So there's electric mobility is spreading out into many, many sectors. We even have an electric airplane in British Columbia.
Dan Seguin 07:47
when can we anticipate to see a shift from major automakers to enhance their EV product lines? Is it starting now?
Al Cormier 07:56
Well, I think it's fair to say that all of them are in the business are setting themselves up for EVs. We have some that are committing to producing only EVs after a few years time. And right now there's over 40 different models available, not always available in every part of Canada. But the auto industry is a complicated business, to introduce a new model is about four or five years cycle time is designed and tested and whatever marketed and so that they line up their productions this year for next year. So if there's a demand for TVs in any part of Canada, it sort of has to wait till the industry is ready. And of course, some people are not patient enough to wait for that. They've been enacting what they call zero emission vehicle mandates. California, Quebec, and British Columbia are saying that we have a supply side problem. And they're requiring the auto industry to produce as electric a certain percentage of the production over time that that percentage increases to 100% by 2040, in some jurisdiction. So they're being pressured by regulators to produce more of these. They're being pressured by the public the water by worries for economic or environmental reasons. And they have a hard job to do to transition their industry so to speak, to meet that demand, but hopefully, they'll catch up the public demand soon. And supplies should not be an issue.
Dan Seguin 09:53
Is there a typical persona to an EV owner in your experience? What Do EV owners care about,
Al Cormier 10:02
I've been watching this now for over 10 years. And I think the early people, early buyers are people that are what we call the early adopters. They like new technologies that want to try it out. And everything else, they'll go to great lengths to make it work. And the next phase of buyers have been those who have been buying it for environmental reasons, because they're getting more and more committed to reducing emissions and transportation, which is not unimportant. At the national level. Transportation contributes about 25% of greenhouse gas emission. And in major cities, it's as high as 40%. So it's a big problem. So then we have the environmentalists have been sort of the next phase, where we're now seeing people buying these for economic reasons, because they save the average user about $2,000 a year in fuel costs. And of course, servicing costs are a lot less because there's a lot less moving parts and ease and require less servicing. So that's attractive as well. So that's sort of the transition. And of course, in the last year, we've seen a lot of public demand for action or climate change a lot of awareness. And I've started to see some TV commercials from auto companies are awarding their electric big. That's good.
Dan Seguin 11:34
I would love to have your thoughts on the following. Getting more EV's on the road is a practical and effective way for Canadians to reduce pollution and fight climate change. But how are we offsetting EV drain on the power grid?
Al Cormier 11:53
That's a frequently asked question. I have participated in evaluation of this topic. In several cities, including yours and Ottawa. whether an organization called pollution probe and Natural Resources Canada, we examine the current capacity of several major cities in Canada. And basically, they can adopt EV growth, you know, with minor adjustments. Obviously, if everybody the same street buys at the same time, they have adjust a transformer at the end of the street and that kind of stuff. But if you look back, I've been around a few decades. You know, we went from clotheslines to house dryers, clothes dryers in the house that it most EVs will be charged at home at the same power level as the clothes dryer. So the utilities survive the transition cost like clothes dryers. Because it didn't happen all at one time. You know, it's a slow period over a few years. And utilities have also survived the demand for air conditioning. Most homes years ago, were not air conditioning. Now they are. So we've adjusted. And I'm confident that utilities will adjust for electric vehicles as well. And I don't see any major technical challenges. It's as minor system upgrade to the
Dan Seguin 13:27
Home charging. Is it a barrier for the first time buyers is mandatory residential Evie chargers for new buildings a potential game changer. In Canada, only cities, towns and municipalities in British Columbia appear to be instituting rules regarding residential chargers.
Al Cormier 13:48
It's a complex arrangement of rules and regulations. We have the National Building Code that recommends that buildings adopt be ready for EVs. And then in most provinces, we have a provincial building code that regulates everything provincially and illicitly. But in BC they have local building codes as well. So what we're saying in British Columbia is that these municipalities again, because of promotion by the government and EV groups and so on have adopted bylaw changes, and amend their code so that a new home being built should be pre wired not pre wired but preset for EVs. That means running the conduit from the electrical panel in the basement to the garage. So it's very inexpensive to do at the time of construction. Go back and do it later. It could be in the 1000s of dollars. Now we propose that for instance to the Ontario government, and it was well on the way to being legislated the change in the internal code last year, the current government listened to the construction industry, who maintained that there was an expensive thing to do, they would add hundreds of dollars to the cost of new home and should not do it. So the Ford government says, okay, we won't require it. So we hope that that will change in time in Ontario, I believe it's required in Quebec. In other provinces, we'll review that as well. Now, the big issue, of course, are condos, multi urban residential buildings. And we're fortunate that as we do a lot of work and research into that, and the solutions have been identified for condos. In Ontario, we have a law that requires condo boards to cooperate if a resident wants to have an EV charger in the garage, and because prior to that, we had some condo boards that said, we can't be bothered or say no. So a lot of residents of citizens live in condos and a lot more will come in the future. So it's important for them to accommodate that. Our conference coming here at the end of April, we have an all day workshop on that how to do EV charging in condos, the role for utilities, condos and municipalities and so on. So that's sort of the next round of challenges to make it easier for on charging.
Dan Seguin 16:34
Hydro Quebec has for a number of years invested significant amounts of work, effort and money into building a network of fast charging stations in the province, including in areas where they don't necessarily expect that those charging stations would be getting a high adoption on their own. The result. A more even distribution of EV ownership between urban and rural areas. Is a better city charging infrastructure the key to increasing Evie ownership. What are your thoughts on that?
Al Cormier 17:11
I think the main key is quite a lot of public high speed charging stations. Most EVs have ranges now that go all the way up to nearly 500 kilometers per charge. So at most people probably just drive 30-40 kilometers a day. So they might charge once a week. And most charging is done at home. I imagine you have any recharge at home yourself for your car. So but if you want to venture out of Ottawa, you need to assurance that on your trip to Cornwall, or Montreal or Toronto that you'll have these charges on the way. So those have to be public charging station, they have to be level three, the high speed charging, so you can charge most of your batteries within within 15-20 minutes. So and of course we're seeing that being adopted now by canadian tire and selling it at their stores, Petro Canada's doing it cut back on the lot in their province. And you bought two activists closer to that a BC. So it's becoming an accepted practice. And the federal government is looking for another 5000 such stations on major highways in Canada. So I think that the the best strategy to promote EV growth is an extensive network of EV fast charging stations across the line. Because private static charging be largely done at home or at work. And so it's when you mentioned the longer trips that you need that assurance.
Dan Seguin 18:57
At least 1/3 of Canadians live in a multi unit residential building today. And that number is not likely to decline. Increasingly, the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today are multifamily. In Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Are there solutions for Canadians discouraged from buying electric vehicles because they have no easy means of charging them either in condominiums in apartment buildings or homes that lack a driveway or even a garage.
Al Cormier 19:41
Yeah, yeah, all of these things are being looked at. And as I mentioned for condominiums, there are technical solutions out there. A lot of companies will come in and set up a charging system in the condo manager and so on so forth. And electric utilities are good on how to deal with condos, assess the condo electrical system capacity and come up with an easy process for the EV owner, the condo to buy and use and charge and EV. It gets complicated because when you buy a condo in the building, you're assigned a parking spot, typically underground or on this side parking lot. And that parking spot is tied by law to your suite. So you can't say move your car to a parking spot near the electrical panel. So you have to run power to the car parking spot. But it's not insurmountable, not all that expensive. So the condo solutions are there. There are companies promoting and assisting condos to do that. They are legislation in some provinces encouraging or requiring condo boards to collaborate and help out. And then we have the other issues and older parts of cities we have people that have cars that park on the street, no driveways, no garages, Some out of Montreal, some out of vancouver, even parts of Toronto, and probably even parts of downtown Ottawa as well. And in those areas they are technology where a charger can be placed on the sidewalk or next to the sidewalk on the street side of the sidewalk so to speak. And people can charge then pay for their electricity depends on the parking arrangement on the street.
Dan Seguin 21:36
Do you believe that EV adoption is directly tied to provincial or federal financial incentives for EV buyers?
Al Cormier 21:44
very strongly tied? Yeah, we saw that in Ontario when they stop incentives. In 2018, the sales dropped by about 40%. So because EVs at this point in time costs more than regular car. These incentives help offset the cost difference. And that's the same with any new technology. As the sales volume go up and production levels increase, the per unit cost will go down. And there are strong predictions that perhaps in five years or less electric cars will charge costs the same as an ordinary car as a gasoline engine car. So these incentives are important in the meantime, to help offset the cost difference. And we clearly see the evidence of where they exist. sales go up where they don't sell. So then
Dan Seguin 22:44
do you think the electric highway will move the needle?
Al Cormier 22:49
Very much so like the electric highway? I guess the term really means highways, we're charging stations along the road so people can travel with the worries of running short of electricity. Yes, it's that's why the major companies like Suncor, Canadian tire and others are investing the government's investing in those facilities along the highways. And that is we'll remove the constraint from the viewers the range anxiety, they're afraid that they'll very rarely choose they get out of town. So the electric highway is very much important. And it is moving the needle already.
Dan Seguin 23:39
Here's a good one for you out. What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit
Al Cormier 23:49
well transit across Canada are a municipal responsibility. And of course the municipalities buys the buses or light rail or whatever, or all the rail systems in Canada are already electric, so there's no worries there. And new ones being planned are also coming electric. But on the bus side. The emissions from diesel engine buses is not insignificant. And then major transit hubs like Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal, you have a lot of densities of buses, the city centers that are contributing significantly to pollution. So it's incumbent upon all municipalities to look at alternative technologies. They are hydrogen buses being developed. But that's a little bit down the road. We already have the electric buses we have to two companies, three companies making electric buses and Canada. One making electric school buses as well. So we have a lot transit system buying electric buses and trying it out. And the success rate so far has been quite good. The federal government is hoping to see the end of diesel engine buses in the near future. And a total switch to electric buses, that we encourage that so municipalities obviously have to go along with this thing and plan accordingly. And the funding levels from provinces in federal government, or the purchase of transit buses have to change to accommodate electric buses as well.
Dan Seguin 25:39
Can you talk to me about the EV 2020 conference coming up?
Al Cormier 25:43
Yeah, that would be our 11th annual National Conference taking place in Mississauga at the end of April. And we're already very actively involved in developing the program for the conference. And it's the place to be if you want to talk about automotive learn what's happening is electric mobility technologies, policies, etc. Or what's coming down the road. We have about 500 people from across the country that attend these things, marvelous exchange of information, strategies and policies, particularly among the municipalities and utilities that don't compete with each other. We even have exchange within industry members, some are competing with each other, but they collaborate. And we have speakers coming from universities, research centers, industry members be talking about I would say 1520 major project types dealing with policies, dealing with technology, dealing with trends, and we'll have 15 technical sessions, but about 45 to 50 speakers, seven or eight major plenary sessions, a trade show, where you see the latest and the greatest. So it's the place to be out.
Dan Seguin 27:16
Thank you for joining me today. If someone wanted to reach out to you and connect, what should they be doing?
Al Cormier 27:23
Well then go to our website, www.emc-mec.ca or just click Electric Mobility Canada and they'll take us to our website, lots of information there. Or anyone can call me 416-970-9242.
Dan Seguin 27:41
Again, thank you very much. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. You're welcome that thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydro ottawa.com backslash podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #36:
If the Wizard of Oz was remade for the 21st century, Dorothy might now declare: there’s no place like a net-zero home. And she’d be right. But would she need the Wizard to grant her wish for a net-zero home or would Dorothy be able to afford one on her own? In this episode, Kevin Lee – CEO of the Canadian Home Builders Association (CHBA) - tells us what it means for a home or building to be “net-zero,” the pros and cons, and what the CHBA is doing to make net zero homes an affordable reality for all current and aspiring homeowners.
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Transcript
Dan Seguin 00:42
Hey, everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. Dorothy said it best: "There's no place like home." Now... If the Wizard of Oz was remade for the 21st century, Dorothy might now declare there's no place like a net zero home and she'd be right. But would she need the wizard to grant her wish for a net zero home, or would Dorothy be able to afford one on her own? On today's podcast, we're going to talk about the 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions that Canadian homes and buildings release into the atmosphere every year. And we're also going to talk about how net zero homes and buildings are combating climate change from foundations to rooftops with each new build. Designed and constructed to produce at least as much energy as they consume, net zero home buildings are up to 80% more energy efficient than typical new homes. The key difference is that a net zero home uses renewable energy to produce the energy it consumes With a growing demand from energy conscious House Hunters looking to make their environmentally responsible choice for one of their biggest life purchases. What do they need to know about purchasing in net zero home? Who are the builders? What impact will net zero home have on the purchase price on their future energy bills? What renewable energy system is the best option? Or are there government subsidies or incentives? In short, how can more and more Canadians take advantage of living greener and more energy efficient? So let's get going with today's big question. Is there any real movement whereby net zero homes will become the new standard in the next decade and what will it take for the industry to get there joining us to shed some light on net zero Homes is the chief executive officer of the Canadian Home Builders Association. Mr. Kevin Lee. Kevin, would you mind giving us a brief description of your background, what the Canadian Home Builders Association does, and why do you think net zero homes and buildings are the future?
Kevin Lee 03:25
Well, my background is that I am an engineer with a master's in architecture. And I've worked in the housing fields my entire career, I ran my own consulting business for about 11 years and energy efficient housing, construction and research and development. I also worked for the federal government for several years running housing buildings and community research and development programs, as well as doing running programming like the R-2000 program. The energuide rating system for homes program the eagle energy retrofit homes program. So big background anon and I've been the Chief Executive Officer at the Canadian Home Builders Association for the past seven years at CHBA, as we call it. We represent builders and renovators and developers all across Canada as well as the suppliers and trades and services that support residential construction. And we work together to improve the performance of houses, improve the relations with governments to help. One of the big things we really pushed is housing affordability and making sure people can afford to buy new homes as well as afford to rent homes and there are obviously lots of challenges these days with the cost of housing. So we spent a lot of time on that. And we do have a net zero energy housing council that does work on net zero energy homes and advancing that we have a labelling programmer we have had to label close to 400 houses across the country now over the past couple of few years. And in terms of the future, with respect to net zero, we've always as an industry and as an association been leaders in energy efficiency we do incredibly well in balancing the performance - Houses today are, you know, more than 50% better than they were 25 years ago. Sometimes I hear people say, Oh, they sure don't build houses like they used to do, which I would always respond.: "Well, thank goodness!" We continue to do better and nowhere is that more true than in terms of energy efficiency. How far we're able to go with respect to net zero and under what kind of timeline I would suggest is very much a function of costing and affordability because investing in a net zero home is a great way to invest your money and in your home and there's a lot of benefits, but it's still not cheap. Definitely costs a little bit more and when it comes to regulations, we're always trying to think about affordability. So from the association perspective, or I was trying to say: Okay, well, yes, we want to make homes better, but we also want to make sure people can still afford to buy them. So let's find like most cost effective ways and cost efficient ways. And let's try not especially this day and age, and when we build such good new houses, how do we make sure that we don't increase the cost of houses with every code change that we make?
Dan Seguin 06:25
Okay, Kevin, what's the difference between a green home and a net zero home?
Kevin Lee 06:31
Well, when we talk about net zero energy homes, you're talking about a house that produces as much energy as it needs over the course of the year to sort of net out at zero, and certainly in Canada with our cold climate, you can expect that in the winter, you're probably going to be using some energy, more solar than you're able to generate, but on other times when you don't need as much energy - Typically in art programs as through solar energy, you're able to create surplus energy that you're able to feed back into the grid and net zero. So that's a net zero energy home. A green home tends to encompass many other things that will almost always encapsulate energy efficiency. But it'll also look at things like green environmental products, especially in different roofing materials, that kind of thing. So green tends to encompass a little bit more than net zero. And while many of so in our, in our case, in our program, we really focus on the energy efficiency piece. So, you know, builders do add a lot of other special features to homes that would be green, but the big differences the green is more about the broader environmental, whereas our net zero work is very focused on the energy efficiency.
Dan Seguin 07:45
When building or renovating to net zero standards, what are the key considerations you should start with? Are we talking everything from walls, ventilation, foundation, windows, and more?
Kevin Lee 07:59
Oh, absolutely. I mean, certainly when you're driving to get down to basically using close to zero energy, you have to look at everything that uses energy and that can, you know, save energy and be efficient with energy. So every element of the home, as you said, walls, ceilings, foundations, windows, mechanical systems: hugely important. So you have to look at all of it and where do you start? Well, frankly, if you're a homebuyer, you start by looking for a builder with the experience and know how to do this and even through our programs. And we follow, we use the energuide rating system, which is a government of Canada system and label for measuring the energy performance of homes. And there are energy advisories that are certified by the Government of Canada to do that. And we provide those energy advisors additional training, to work with our builders to be experts and getting all the way to net zero. So they're sort of recognized through our program through additional training and education. So really, as a homebuyer or a homeowner, because we now have a retrofit program as well for renovating houses to get to this level. Really it's finding the right finding the right contractor homebuilder, you know, you can look at CHBA.ca. And you can find a list of our rent renovators and our home builders that are certified, they know what they're doing. And they're working very closely with an energy advisor who works on the design because like I said, when you're trying to get to net zero, you're talking about squeezing every ounce of energy you can out of that house. And it's every element. So it's not so much that you start one place. You look at everything.
Dan Seguin 09:36
You touched on this earlier, but wondering if you could further demystify for me, how does a net zero home produce as much energy - clean renewable energy - as it consumes?
Kevin Lee 09:48
Yeah, well, and I did touch on that earlier. So I'll go back to that. And the idea is that again, especially in Canada, it's a little bit tricky, you know, when it's very cold, you know, you're going to have to use some energy. Typically in our program, the renewal Bull energy that is used is photovoltaics or, you know solar panels, on the roof generating electricity. But when it's when it's really cold, you're probably not going to be able to generate enough energy to meet the entire heating load of the home. As well as all the other loads that are going on: ventilation. We plug a lot of things in too, we're charging a lot of cell phones and all these other things. There's a pretty heavy what we call base load these days as well. So what you're trying to do is make sure that as you look at the course of the whole year, you're producing as much energy as you need. Sometimes you might be producing surplus energy. Sometimes you may be using a little bit more energy than your system can produce, but overall, you net out at zero through the course of the year.
Dan Seguin 10:48
Okay, Kevin, I'm wondering if you could dispel any myths around the cost associated to building a standard home compared to a net zero home. Is it significantly more to be net zero?
Kevin Lee 11:02
I think probably the biggest myth would be if somebody said it doesn't cost anything because it definitely you know, we're talking about you know, different technologies you're talking about things like moving from standard double pane windows to triple pane windows, you're talking about being more insulation walls, sometimes building you know, fatter walls and using you know, more lumber or whatever your material is to build more, so there's definitely an additional cost. Some of that clause is defrayed by your energy savings, which is great over time. And so it really varies it depends on your climate, it depends on the size of your home, it depends on the design of your home and those design features. You know, some people like to have lots of windows probably we all love having lots of windows are actually one of the more expensive things though, and they also are tend to be a bit of a heat loss. If you have lots of windows, you might have to spend money in other places. So is it more expensive? Yeah, absolutely it is. It's part of the reason why we say before we get this into regulation, we want to make sure we continue with a research and innovation and costing to bring those prices down. And then when it comes to how much more is it going to be, it also depends on what's the baseline construction standard of your builder. Some builders build the code, which is adding their energy efficiency measures in the building code, and that's still a very good home. Others build the levels like the Energy Star program, which is a little bit higher. So your jump from ENERGY STAR to net zero or net zero ready is a little bit less. So that's not a very direct answer, because it really varies and you can't say it's 5% 10%, etc. It really depends. But it's definitely a great investment. And for people who are looking to stay in their home a long time looking are conscious about climate change and the environment, want a more comfortable home because the nice thing about a triple glazed window just as an example as you sit beside there's practically no condensation. You're right comfortable sitting there. And it's like in the winter. So a lot of good reasons to choose to invest your money that way. And it really comes down to working with your builders to figure out, you know what those costs are going to be.
Dan Seguin 11:58
Is there a net zero movement in Canada? Is it in the response to climate change science now showing that in order to have a real impact on carbon emissions, reducing isn't enough, we essentially have to neutralize our environmental footprint.
Kevin Lee 13:29
I think that the energy efficiency movement has been going on in Canada for a long time. And you know, we developed the R-2000 program back in the 1980s, in response to the oil crisis prior to that, and then as climate change and environmental concerns have grown and grown, there's been a constant movement of improved energy efficiency, and energy performance of houses and net zero is really that ultimate goal. And as concerns about climate change, continue to escalate, obviously, every sector of the economy needs to do its part to get there. And homes are a big part of that. I will say that, you know, we can definitely get to net zero from every house in Canada built that way, at some point. As I said, it's really about at what point are we able to do that where it's not making it too expensive for homeowners. And the other really critical thing when you're talking about climate change and GHG emissions from housing, it's the very much the existing housing stock that's really critical. The new houses are very efficient, we can make them more efficient, the returns are diminishing a little bit though, and the more energy efficient, you make it the less you get in terms of savings over time. But the existing housing stock and especially the older housing stock is so critically important and that's why we've added renovation to our program and we always recommend to governments things like there should be a home renovation tax credit for energy efficiency, so that people in their existing homes can improve them and we can help defray the costs that,
Dan Seguin 15:04
Kevin, we've covered renovations and new builds. What about apartments and condos? Are they a challenge or an opportunity?
Kevin Lee 15:14
Well, you know, as with every challenge, of course, there is an opportunity. So a little bit of both, for sure. We can, again, you know, the technology is there, it's a little trickier, with big buildings because you tend to have more units in them and not as much surface areas. Actually, for renewables, you know, you need a certain amount of surface area on the roof for photovoltaics and the solar systems that would go on them. They also tend to have a lot of glazing, windows, people like to have, you know, their exposed walls to be all glass if they could have it in many cases, and that glazing is often the weak spot in in energy efficiency. It looks great, but it tends to be not as efficient as a nice thick wall with lots of installation, but the technology exists, it really comes down to the cost and also potential and those types of systems, you might have to have your renewables off site, or you might be looking at your company draw renewable energy from another place rather than trying to be generating it all with the building itself. And frankly, we also think that that's a big part of, as, you know, we look down the road to the future for net zero homes, you know, should every house be generating its own? Or will it make more sense and will it be more effective for there to be more community systems that generate the renewables and you don't have to have it on your individual unit, I'm going to do a home it could be nearby. So the power generation or renewable power generation is also going to be a big part we think of the future as we move towards sort of net zero economy at large.
Dan Seguin 16:53
You’ve alluded to this earlier. There's a variety of home energy performance standards to make homes more energy efficient, are you able to expand on the Canadian Home Builders Association net zero home labeling program? How are those standards baselined?
Kevin Lee 17:12
Well, when we set out to develop our program, we wanted to go with sort of tried tested and true rating system. And so, as I mentioned, we base our program on the government of Canada's energuide rating system. That system has labeled over a million homes in Canada. It's backed by the Government of Canada, there are energy advisors trained and certified by the Government of Canada. So that we feel like that is the system to use. The Energy Star program uses that as well. The R-2000 program uses it as well. So the energuide rating system is sort of the point system that grades how much energy you use, and then programs like energy star and our net zero label are points on that scale, if you will, that you're trying To achieve to show a certain level of energy efficiency. And this is the kind of thing that was also used through the equal energy retrofit homes program, a grant program run by the government that through that program, over 600,000 homes are renovated and each one of those dots and energuide label as well as the nice thing about the existing home side of things. And that renovation path is the energuide. Label also provides the homeowner full report on where they can go with their house to make it energy efficient. So you kind of get this pathway, which we think is really important because you can't always afford to do everything on a renovation at the same time. But the energuide system allows you to plan over a few years to do maybe not maybe you can do your windows this year, you're doing insulation in the basement and sealing the next you're going to replace your furnace and three years, whatever the case may be, but you can sort of see that pathway laid out so we really feel like the inner guide rating system is super important. We also think that it should be the rating system for every home in Canada and every program, I often use the analogy, boy, if we have all different rating systems for nutrition labels, it would be very difficult to imagine if you if you went to buy mushrooms off the shelf at the grocery store and you pick up two cans, and it's two different energy labels and you can't compare you wouldn't know which one to buy. And so we're big proponents of saying let's use the energuide rating system, it's the Government of Canada. Let's get that on for all programs, so that everybody can compare and we can what we need to improve in Canada is energy literacy for consumers. It's hard sometimes - it's an invisible thing, energy efficiency. So good labeling and information would help everybody make the decisions.
Dan Seguin 19:39
Okay, time to dust off your crystal ball. What are some of the emerging technologies, innovations that hold much promise for the future of an energy efficient and a net zero home? What's exciting you right now in the industry?
Kevin Lee 20:00
Well, I think you know, what's exciting is that we have within our membership, leaders in the industry all across the country that are working together to find the solutions. And the interesting thing about a home is its builders putting together all of these different technologies and making choices and using energy advisors to help them and make those choices. So I think what's exciting is that everybody's working together. And we're also working together to innovate, and also identify to manufacturers, what are the next things we need, especially to make the energy efficiency componentry even less expensive, so it can be more readily available to everyone. And so whether you're looking at there's some very one of the most important things in energy efficiency is air tightness and air sealing to avoid air leakage. And there's some great new technologies coming in to help make that easier because it's one of the most important things and also one of the most complicated things. Think about every penetration if you own the house, whether it's your, your cable guy or your, you know venting for gas appliances, or there's always lots of things popping in and out of what we call the building envelope, as well as it's hard at floor-wall intersections and wall to ceiling intersections. Anyway, there's some very interesting technology coming out for air sealing. Another thing that's very interesting is net zero energy homes. Sometimes joke, you can eat them with a candle. So you need very little energy. And interestingly, our heating systems and even our cooling systems are built for bigger loads are built for bigger houses or even a house with things that uses more energy. So optimizing our mechanical systems for really small loads becomes very important, as does then the distribution of that air around the home to make sure that the temperatures are always balanced. And then there's also the opportunity to integrate ventilation smartly into those sorts of combination systems. Things that we still need to do you know, and would be great to find solutions for in research and development. You know, if we want to pack more insulation in the walls, we really need to have more effective R-values, those are called like, basically we've sort of hit a limit right now on how much how much insulation we can put in a wall, and then you have to build a fatter wall. But building a better fatter wall becomes more expensive, it'd be really great if let's say within the standard two by six wall, you can put insulation in still what ends up being five and a half inches, but it had what we call greater, much higher R-values. So you'd have to build a thicker wall, you just put better insulation inside. So those are some of the directions that we're headed, I'm looking for a very good technology to build the stuff right now, but we're constantly innovating and we know we need more research and development to work together with and the government's always been a big supporter of that and housing because our industry is made a lot of small organizations, we don't have the Fords and the Mercedes and none of the world that have been r&d shops themselves. So collaborating with government to find these solutions that are more affordable is going to be really important as we move to do more and more of these over time.
Dan Seguin 23:14
And let's take this from R&D to behaviors, what kinds of lifestyle changes are required within net zero home?
Kevin Lee 23:23
Well, I think the great thing about energy efficient homes is they tend to not require any lifestyle change. Energy Efficiency is about being more efficient using technology and construction techniques so that you can live in your home and enjoy it. I always draw the distinction between energy efficiency and energy conservation. Energy conservation is taking a shorter shower, turn down the thermostat, and wear a sweater that's conserving energy. Energy Efficiency is about using technology to make sure that you can still do the things that you like to do, but the houses energy efficient in the first place. Now, lots of people who buy a net zero home are very energy conscious and environmentally conscious as well. So they'll probably elect to do lots of other things. They're probably very avid recyclers and composters and maybe they will turn down the thermostat just because they want to save even more energy. But the nice thing about energy efficiency and net zero homes is sometimes you can't even tell that it's an energy efficient home other than maybe, wow, this is a lot more comfortable than the other house. There's no draft. I can sit beside my windows and I feel really great. There are a lot of benefits and lifestyle benefits, but you typically don't require lifestyle changes.
Dan Seguin 24:41
Despite demand for greener homes. The majority of homes built in Canada continue to be built to a minimum standard. Why is there a disconnect between housing desires and what is actually constructed? Will we see a time where building codes could force all new housing to meet the net zero standard. What does the future look like?
Kevin Lee 25:07
Well, I think we need to be a little bit careful when we say there's a disconnect between code and what people want, because you also have to add in what people are willing to pay for. So there are a lot - So for example, we already have in our net zero program, and the Energy Star program has existed for a long time, known as quite successful. But as we've talked about all through this, it's a little bit more expensive to build to these standards. And so people have a choice and they often choose and I've spent my whole career working in energy efficiency, and sometimes it's been frustrating because homeowners rightly have the choice. What do they want? Do they want to have a hot tub? Do they want granite countertops? Do they want more space? Do they want to pay more to live closer to town or, or do they want to live a little further away from town where it might be cheaper, and then on top of that, you've got to save If you want a more energy efficient house, it'll cost more. And you're sort of doing these trade-offs within your budget is why we're so keen on making sure that energy efficiency standards are also married to technology that makes it not more expensive, so that people don't have to make that choice, and in terms of today's minimum requirements through the building code, they're actually very good. And they continue to improve and they're much higher than they were years ago. So when will the code end up being net zero? Well, we would suggest that that should be at a time when you're not causing affordability challenges for Canadians especially for first time homebuyers. That of course you have to build the code, social housing, and even social housing, ask a social housing provider why they're not building to ENERGY STAR net zero standards. And the reason is because it's very expensive for them, and they're more important for them. It's just to put roofs over people's houses and so it's that that trade as it's happening right now, and it's why we're really pushing for advancements in technology so that it's not more expensive. So we can, when the regulation comes, we're not causing affordability challenges so we can get there. It's just a question of when.
Dan Seguin 27:15
So until net zero homes become the standard, what are some simple things that people can do to improve on to make their existing home more energy efficient?
Kevin Lee 27:26
Well, the first thing I would say is, you know, think of it holistically. And there are various programs that will supplement the cost of having an energy advisor come by, but really that the best thing is to have an energuide rating system evaluation of your home, and that'll give you the big picture. Sometimes people think for example, that, uh, you know, I just, I should replace my windows and usually you're replacing windows because the seals shot at that point and they're starting to get milky and there's some condensation or whatever, and it's time or maybe wood windows and there's been condensation And the paint is chipping, you know, I want to I need to get the window. Turns out that if you ask an energy advisor to come in and do an energy analysis, he or she'll probably tell you that you can do that and you'll get good enjoyment out of that. But for a fraction of the cost, you can actually just go and blow a bunch of cellulose insulation in your attic and you'll save twice as much energy and so you know, looking at the insulation is a big thing but I would start with an energy assessment to have somebody come in and tell you all the things you can do but through the you know, air sealing is really important. Insulation in the attic is tends to be cheap. Go up through the attic hatch, blow insulation, you're good. Obviously insulating your basement is a good one to do. It's usually accessible if you have an unfinished basement and does have the benefit of all that improved comfort. Obviously if you have old mechanical systems and old furnace and old water heater, replacing those tends to be a really good move as well. So there's lots we can do lots we need to do over time to help us. We're hoping through the economic recovery that hopefully we're going to get into very well over the next little while that the government steps forward and helps a little bit with what we're recommending would be a tax credit that really incentivizes people to do this. And the other thing I have to say is, when you go to do this stuff, hire a reputable contractor. It’s not worth getting the cash guy to do a side job ladder off the back of the truck, save a few bucks, there are so many risks. So we have a whole get it in writing program that we promote. If you go on our CHP website, it just talks about the pitfalls of not getting a contract, not getting receipts, not getting warranty, all the things that we should all do with your house is probably the biggest investment you'll ever make in your in your lifetime. Let's make sure we take care of that and protect ourselves. So just hire a reputable contractor. And if you're looking for that list, you can go on our website at chba.ca and we list our members all across the country.
Dan Seguin 29:57
So Kevin, I really think this is worth repeating where can folks learn more about net zero homes and find a list of builders in their region?
Kevin Lee 30:06
Yeah, absolutely well, so we are the Canadian Home Builders Association, and our acronym is CHBA. So if you go to CHBA.ca, or frankly, if you just Google net zero in Canada will pop up on your Google Search pretty much at the top. And on our website, there's all the information there's information about buying a new home, there's information about renovating, renovating the home and making smart choices. And there's information about our net zero program and a full list of all of the builders that we recognize through our program across Canada. So you can find a builder in your region that would be more than happy to work with you and more and more so renovators as well I could help you get on your pathway to getting to net zero.
Dan Seguin 30:51
How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? What is the one thing you can't live without?
Kevin Lee 30:59
I think it's music, I love music. I'm a bit of a musician. So let's go with that.
Dan Seguin 31:03
What is something that challenges you?
Kevin Lee 31:06
To try to change the world in positive ways, and it's fun to work on that every day. It's a never ending challenge for all of us. But trying to make good, solid contributions. We have a better world and a better Canada is a big challenge and something I love doing.
Dan Seguin 31:22
If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Kevin Lee 31:26
It would be too slow time. I don't have enough time to get everything done. So I would be able to just freeze time, get a bunch of things done, and then turn time moving forward. Again, that would be that would be great. Even for doing hobbies. I don't have enough time to read. I'd love to stop time and read a couple of chapters every once in a while.
Dan Seguin 31:47
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?
Kevin Lee 31:52
Well, I would tell them the same thing that I'm telling my kids - which is, you know, do the best at everything that you do this work put in the hard work. It will always pay off even if you think it won't. If you're working on something that you don't enjoy, get it done, do a good job on it. And you'll be surprised down the road when, even if it's 'Wow, I hated doing that. I never want to do that again'. Well, you learned it, you did a good job. Yeah, work hard and put in the effort and have fun while you're doing it. Find the fun and everything.
Dan Seguin 32:24
What do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Kevin Lee 32:28
The most interesting thing in our sector right now, I think is the challenges that we're facing with affordability and trying to make sure young Canadians and new Canadians can afford their homes. We have a lot of things that are driving up the prices of new homes and, and mortgages and mortgage rules have been tightening, making it even more challenging. So finding that right solution that will really help people become homeowners and get into it. While we also are continuing to try and improve all homes. We've spent this whole time talking about energy efficiency, but we want to make sure it doesn't cost more so people can afford owns that. That whole affordability challenge, which our members are working on all the time, I think is the most interesting and the most challenging, but a huge opportunity because we know, almost every Canadian either owns their home, but two thirds of Canadians own their home and most renters wish they could and hope they will one day you know, so helping to achieve Canadians dreams, I think is a huge opportunity and a huge challenge that we're all working on.
Dan Seguin 33:28
Well, Kevin, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about your association? How can they connect?
Kevin Lee 33:43
Yeah, definitely check out our website at chba.ca. All the information is there. We are also structured as an association with provincial and local associations as part of our organization. So we have local associations all across Canada. And pretty much every urban center and so that's another place that you can connect very locally with the members of our organization that can help you with your housing dreams.
Dan Seguin 34:12
Again, Kevin, thank you very much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcasts. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.
---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #15: Smart buildings have the potential to consume less energy, generate less waste, and provide better quality spaces for their occupants. But just how practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies and can they actually improve the bottom line? Terry Young, Vice president of operations at KRP Properties sits down to talk to us about the rise of smart buildings and the importance of training his employees on the ever-changing technology.
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:44
Greetings everyone and welcome back. This is Episode 15 of the ThinkEnergy podcast. We spend our lives in buildings at home at the office, community centers, shopping malls, movie theaters, and the list goes on. We're also surrounded by smart technology and gadgets, smartphones that can turn on the heating in your home before you get there smartwatches that track how many steps you take each day. Now that smart technology has made a remarkable entry into commercial office building space. Enabled by technology smart buildings have the potential to consume less energy, generate less waste, and provide better quality spaces for their occupants. Did you know buildings produce 17% of Canada's greenhouse gases, including emissions from generating electricity that buildings use. modern buildings are equipped with 1000s of sensors recording air quality, humidity, motion, temperature and the presence of noxious gas, light carbon monoxide, formaldehyde. These sensors continuously record energy consumption and waste. Smart algorithms running on network computers, analyze sensor generated data in real time to keep the building systems running at peak efficiency while the air is clean and fresh. So here's today's big question: Smart buildings lead smart cities. How practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies? And can they actually improve the bottom line? Our guest today is Terry Young, Vice President of Operations at KRP properties. He manages a portfolio of over 30 commercial properties in Ottawa's high tech hub in Kanata. Welcome to the ThinkEnergy podcast,Terry. So what's your take on this smart building trend? What are some of the technologies you've adopted in your own buildings?
Terry Young 03:02
So I don't even know if I'd call it a trend it is a "must-have" moving forward. Basically, what we've tried to do is try to understand how our buildings, use the utilities, be a gas, be it utilities, gas, electric, and or water, and try to understand how that from an energy perspective is being used. But how do I make my clients comfortable. So we've sort of broken it down into three things. safety, comfort and energy. That's how we kind of run our buildings. So some of the technologies that we've put in place is anywhere from, you know, low voltage, DC lighting, LED lights. We've put in, state of the art building automation systems, we run artificial intelligence, the IoT devices, there's millions of them. We've tried probably millions, and we don't have millions, but we've you know, we play a lot in the space to try to make you more comfortable burning less energy.
Dan Seguin 04:07
Quick question, how does AI fit into that? You just talked about artificial intelligence.
Terry Young 04:12
Yeah. So I could I could talk here for like five hours on this. This is my thing. I love this. So what we found is we get data coming in from the sensors and the IoT thing. So we talked about earlier on, how do you maximize the efficiency of how you're running a building? You say, Well, I can turn off the lights at four o'clock when people are going absolutely. But how can holistically you look at how the building's burning its energy and how you're maximizing the comfort to the fourth or fifth decimal place. And this is where AI comes in. So we feed all of the data that we get in from the sensors in our buildings, and we feed it into a data analytics platform. And what that does, it understands how the building is really being used by the people in the building. Okay, and I'll give you a quick example. So if you've got an r&d department who meet every second Thursday, for instance, and what the building will do, it'll start understanding the trends of how that room in that section of the buildings being used. So if it's not being used, the building's going to say, Well, I don't need to light it, and I don't need the air condition it properly. So if I'm only going to do that, if indeed, they use the building, so over time, trending will actually start to occur and the analytics takes over to automatically lower the temperature, turn off the lights, etc. Likewise, these guys are going for pints and they're trying to bugger off every Friday, not that never ever happens, where the building sort of starts understanding that he'll start shutting the lights down three o'clock. Yeah. So So basically, we've been very forced in some of our buildings, you know, putting this AI stuff in, we can save 27, even up to 30% of energy just by turning this stuff off.
Dan Seguin 05:59
Okay, well, that actually flows nicely into the next one. And maybe you have something to add. So the question was around, how does it work? And how does it help make your building minimize energy costs, support the electricity grid and mitigate environmental impacts?
Terry Young 06:18
Yeah, again, great question. And it's quite loaded, and has many levels of answers. So I'll try to simplify it. Minimize the use of every electrical device in your building. Basically, if you have another example, if you got a 60 horsepower motor on the roof drive and a fan, for instance, what that does is now this technology will say I don't need the full 60 horsepower. So at three o'clock in the afternoon, maybe we need 22 horsepower, or six horsepower. So we put variable speed drives in variable stuff. And again, remember, this technology is understanding holistically how that fan works. So you only will use the minimum amount to maintain your comfort. So ultimately, what will happen is twofold. One, you're going to burn less energy full stop. Among other things, and this is where the math is, is sort of very hard to quantify. I don't replace it normally. So if you have a useful motor, you have a useful life and say 18 to 20 years on electric motor, for instance, that's under normal conditions, I've minimized those normal conditions now with the software. So what happens is, I don't need to spend $300,000, or whatever that huge amount of investment from a capital perspective, to buy a new motor 18 years, I maybe want to push that to 22 to 25, you expand your life expectancy, here's the thing, the amount of energy and the amount of everything carbon and everything to build the motor, I don't I'm not throwing it out. I'm not building a new one, I'm actually trying to save and extend the lifespan of what I have already.
Dan Seguin 08:01
The only thing is maintenance.
Terry Young 08:03
Exactly. And again, again, they come back to the artificial intelligence, predictive maintenance. So this is the artificial intelligence gives us the ability to predict based on trending analytics now, so we actually be able to maintain and operate even when I say 100 times better, literally 100 times better than we did before.
Dan Seguin 08:21
So these improving these system efficiencies, like event, venting and lighting you're talking about does actually affect the bottom line, and I would assume in a positive way. And also with regard to your your carbon footprint.
Terry Young 08:37
Yeah, well, so so not to get too technical. But the more efficient, you can run a building, obviously, the less money that you have to spend to run it. So right, that's the bottom line number. Likewise, you create a brand when you run a building like this, that people want to be there, and they're willing to pay a premium sometimes to lease this space in a building like that, because their operating costs are lower, and they're more comfortable. So it's good business, very good business.
Dan Seguin 09:07
Okay. What are some of the potential barriers, though, to the adoption of smart building solutions? Like I mean, are there any talk to me maybe about return on investment? Maybe the inconvenience factor downtimes to get that set up?
Terry Young 09:22
Yeah. So not too much downtime, return on investment, certainly. What probably the biggest, if not, it's not anything, it's usually about the money to do this, how when, where all that kind of stuff we can play with, but coming up with the million dollars or the 350,000, or whatever it is. That's the biggest problem have. Some of this technology, the payback is not even quantifiable. For years, 10 years, 12 years. I'm a finance guy. And that doesn't make any sense. So, you know, after seven years, there's not really a return. So we try to, you know, put if, if it's any less than three years, it's a pretty good business. Sort of decision, the biggest besides the money is, and again, before I continue to number two, there are specific financial institutions that were specialize in this too, by the way. So if you gotta if you've got a building, or you're in the space where you don't know exactly what to do, and you don't think you have the money, most of our lending institutions, now they do have specific people who understand the technology and are willing to loan you money to buy the technology, because that's what they're really specifically, their expertise there. So there's divisions of these and the big all the big banks have divisions now. And we often get third party financing from these guys. Okay, so that's one, the financing check. Number two is we're having a big issue with HR. So it's one thing to put in a great system, and it's amazing, who's gonna run it. So at the end of the day, you still need a smart human behind everything. So you know, we often say, Well, you know, working ourselves out of a job, never, you will always always need somebody to understand the number and how to run it. So, you know, most of our workforce is probably like, in everybody's outfit. You know, they're 55. And over. Yeah. And so we're bringing a lot of this technology in, and we were struggling trying to find the expertise to run it.
Dan Seguin 11:27
Yeah, that was that was one of the questions actually, that I had, now that you have this advanced technology in your buildings? How do you convince the operators that you have in hand, to join that smart workforce? And how do you recruit, are they are they there yet? Do you have that workforce available?
Terry Young 11:47
No, I don't have a fully, you know, our workforce is is again, probably 60% is over 55 years old, we have adopted a lot. What we've done is we've had to change the way we do business a little bit. So when we purchase something, we don't purchase just the thing, I purchased training for the thing. Okay, you see how that changed a little bit. Now, he come back to the economics now. So the ROI, because I've just increased my bill a little bit. But in order to maximize like golf lessons, and I use this example, 1000 times, so I buy a brand new set of ping golf clubs. And if I give that to a person who doesn't know how to play golf, the ball is still gonna be in the woods. Yeah, it's best to buy the big golf clubs and get a golf lesson or two. Yeah, it's worth the 1200 bucks, it really is. And this is where we are right now. So we've done in all of our building automation systems, or AI, I bring the guy in, bring the boys in, and we have, here's how I can make my client because we're very, you know, we're, it's almost a personal thing for us. And so it's our clients, it's my clients, if I can make you more comfortable by sitting in some training and doing a little better job, that's what I'm going to do. And most of our guys are very, very dedicated like that. So you know, training, training, training is the key. And at the end result, when we look and we and I obviously bring numbers to all this and benchmark this. We're doing better. So we make our clients more comfortable. And by burning less energy, life is good. That's basically our job. Cool, you know?
Dan Seguin 13:17
Yeah, will optimization of these systems provide data that can translate into actionable asset repairs or replacement?
Terry Young 13:26
Oh, absolutely. Oh, I did. Yeah. Yeah, no, we're a lot. I wouldn't say all, but a lot of our capital investment that was based on analytics. And basically we break these numbers in. And we can cross reference that now from a financial perspective, see, understand how much from an operational perspective we've been spending on a certain asset class, be it a fan or a motor, something like that. And then the analytics have come in and say you've repaired this 66 times you have 88 service calls, heat and cold calls. There's an issue, there's a and you know, you there's a red point here, you should look at replacing this, because there's a couple of parameters that aren't looking good. Now, if you didn't have some piece of software, looking at this, there's no way that you could, you know, we have 10s of 1000s of devices, you'd never be able to do that. But this AI stuff, when you open the screen, it actually comes up with a green, red and yellow. So if it's red, we got to look at it. If it's green, we're good. And it sort of categorizes in a hierarchy perspective, what I need to look at exactly and remember every point is being looked at so I know right down to the thermostat if there's an issue.
Dan Seguin 14:39
We're talking a lot about the technology but you have these providers also they're closely linked to that the building automation systems of this world if you want, are you able to expand on your partnership model to execute on your smart building strategy?
Terry Young 14:54
Oh, absolutely. The reason the only reason why are successful is because We have great partners. And shout out to you guys as well. The Hydro Ottawa guys, we budget and we look at what we're going to do based on your recommendations and your expertise. You have teams of really smart people, get them around the table, they're more than happy. They're some of the smartest guys in our business. Ask him for advice. What a concept. You know, so we literally get partners, and that's exactly we don't have vendors and clients and we got partners sit around a table, and we got lots of smart people. We got building automation, guys, we got cybersecurity guys, i t guys, utility guys. And they're all wanting to try to make a difference. So you sit around a table, you put a sort of a pathway, and you can It's amazing. What what can be achieved with smart people around the table. And then so you layer then the finance piece, you layer, the analytics piece, you layer the smarts, there's no way you can make you the right decision has to float to the top. Okay? So you never you don't second guess yourself anymore. So if you have to spend a million dollars or 5 million, whatever it is, you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, you've made a really good decision because everybody around the table is in the same direction as you are.
Dan Seguin 16:20
Let's look at the other side of the spectrum. All those good decisions. But is there something that keeps you up at night? What makes you nervous?
Terry Young 16:31
Cybersecurity? You know, I sit on a pile of boards, and we have a conference every year with real calm, which specifically understands how the operational side of the building operates. We're all online now. Okay. And it's vulnerable, in certain circumstances, how you are online from a building perspective. So there's, there's bad guys in the world, unfortunately. And, you know, for whatever reason, they're trying to be destructive. And how you can sort of solve that, or how to barricade those bad guys to come. You know, because you don't want your clients, you just want to keep lights on, keep them warm. And some bad guy wants to stop that, unfortunately. So we put up a pile of sort of cybersecurity and firewalls and a whole pile of IT things that some, again, one of our IT experts, sort of helps us out with, but at the end of the day, I'm worried that as we get further and further down the line, everything is online, everything, you know, there, there's a cybersecurity issue, and that there's a cost to that. And so we got all this data is out there, we have our buildings are our clients, sorry, rely on us as landlords to ensure that, that they're safe, and their lights are on and their their heat and cold. So, you know, as we get more and more technologically advanced, we have to combat that every single day. The building of yesteryear was, don't let the guy in by the electrical switch in the electrical room, lights are still going to be on. That's not the case anymore. You know, you're going even this bill is probably no light switches. Most of our buildings don't so if you you know, so that that's that's probably what keeps me up the most.
Dan Seguin 18:32
that was very informational. I appreciate this. Listen, thank you very much for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed it. I did. If someone wanted to connect with you, what's the best way?
Terry Young 18:42
Hey, my phone for sure. call my office KRP properties or tyoung@krpproperties.com? Absolutely. I have a LinkedIn profile as well. And I enjoy speaking on this topic. very passionate. Yeah, I Well, I like it, it's better. The buildings that we run are better because of it. And I think as a society, and as a community, we're very fortunate to have very tight knit community. If we all chat, which we do our carbon footprint as a whole as our industry can drop, because we're just doing things a little better, a little cleaner, so I can learn from somebody they can learn from us how to do a little bit better. I think we can you know how to eat an elephant one bite at a time. So I think we're going to do really good things here.
Dan Seguin 19:25
Thanks again. Tori. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Hey, folks, thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, we'd appreciate a rating on iTunes, or maybe even tell a friend or a colleague. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Peace, everyone.
The race is on to reach Canada’s target - net-zero emissions by 2050. This is a relatively aggressive timeline, so what should businesses be thinking about now? How do we future proof commercial properties and other industries that are large-emitters for the net-zero future? Glenn Mooney - Manager of Energy Services at Envari, joins us to share his knowledge on sustainable energy solutions and the practical steps that businesses should start with.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. Canada's climate plan has put the country on track to not only meet but exceed its 2030 Paris Agreement emissions reduction goals. What's more, Canada is moving entirely to net zero emissions by 2050. A lot of Canadians embrace this approach citing the environment and climate change as major factors. But there are some that will require a heavier lift than others to achieve these future net zero targets. For some, that means planning now. The Paris Agreement target is less than 10 years away, and 2050 isn't so far into the future as it sounds. With only three decades to go. The finish line is closer than we think. The International Energy Agency released a report stating that these goals will require rapid scaling of energy efficiency, renewable energy, and electrification. The Government of Canada has introduced new funding and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector promising 3 billion to establish a netzero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. The pandemic has given all of us the opportunity to rethink our energy habits, lifestyles, our impacts on the environment, and of course, how we work. Think of all these office towers that have sat empty for more than a year. And the discussions that are being had about the viability of remote work versus returning to the office. A lot of companies and industries are in uncharted territory. Will tenants return to those office towers? Add to this the expectation to meet emission targets by making investments in their properties. And there's a lot of uncertainty, but perhaps also opportunity. So here's today's big question: How do we future proof commercial properties and other industries that are large emitters for the net zero future? Our guest today is the manager of energy services for Envari, a subsidiary of Hydro Ottawa, which offers large scale sustainable energy solutions for businesses, governments and other utilities. Dear listeners, please welcome my friend Glenn Mooney. Glenn, this race to reach net zero emissions by 2050 seems like a mission tailor made for the expertise and services of your organization. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, what drew you to your current role? And what does Envari do?
Glenn Mooney 04:00
Sure Dan, thanks. I'm kind of the old guy. So I've been around the energy business for a long, long time I started way back in, in the nuclear world. So I actually worked in the Bruce at one point and then I moved into energy efficiency, Sustainability. I worked for the old Ontario hydro, I worked in performance contracting for a while. So energy management's always been a path that I followed. And it's kind of brought us here so I was actually here at the start of Envari or what used to be Energy Ottawa energy services. So we got to kind of build a business around just needs in the business world with supporting customers in areas that they didn't have support. And so I like to call it concept to commissioning so we do anything that's energy or sustainability related, we do from the analyzation side two studies. We really love to build projects. So that's kind of where we go we commissioned projects we do work in a lot of fields, energy, electric vehicles, battery storage, lots of lighting, tons of lighting, HVAC, building automation, anything sustainability or energy or greenhouse gas, data analytics and presentation, we build generation projects. So we touch pretty much anything that is energy resources: electricity, natural gas, water, steam. We've been involved in that.
Dan Seguin 05:22
Now, Glenn, what's the first piece of advice you would give to municipalities, large commercial property owners, and those in large industries about these emission reduction target dates of 2030 and 2050.
Glenn Mooney 05:38
That's something I think a lot about these days and as a person that's been doing this for a little bit longer than some, 2030 is not that far away, that's nine years away. So if somebody is giving you some targets for nine years from now, you better be thinking about it now. And 2050, that's not that far away, either. If we think back to y2k, or 9/11, that wasn't that long ago. So it doesn't take long to cover 20 years. So when we're making our decisions, we need to be thinking about that.
Dan Seguin 06:04
We know the final goal is net zero by 2050. That can seem like a huge hurdle for some, but with three decades to get there, it's more of a journey. Where do they begin? Let's look at this through maybe a strategy lens, planning, forecasting and investments.
Glenn Mooney 06:27
Yeah, and I guess if this thing is just think it through make it part of the new vocabulary, because it's something that we haven't thought about. And I'll be honest, we've all kind of pushed it off a bit. We know what's been coming, we've talked about it coming for quite a while, but we don't want to overreact on it, but we need to make it part of our thought process. So any decisions that we have to do in our buildings that involve, I'll say something mechanical things that building equipment, if you're making decisions on it factor in these target dates of 2030, or 40, or 50, or whatever it is in your world, or your owners world or your shareholders world, and make a part of your planning process. Every time you take a look at something and you have to make a business decision on it. Think about it, stay in tune, get informed, get some help if you need it, but help make wise decisions. Because these you only get one chance to do it right now.
Dan Seguin 07:17
What's a good game plan to adopt now, that will get results, but also save them money in the long run? Is it benchmarking and setting actionable, achievable goals that can be done along the way?
Glenn Mooney 07:34
Absolutely, just have a game plan, set yourself out a roadmap doesn't all have to be done this year. But a lot of times the goals are getting set for us. So our owners or pension funds that own buildings, or shareholders or governments or whatever institution, whoever we work for whoever's setting our marching orders, they're setting our goals for us, we don't want to get behind that ball, we want to be up in front of it. So yeah, find out where we are, let's get some get some help qualifying the impact of the options that you have before you, if you've got something, as I said earlier, you've got a piece of equipment that needs to be changed for whatever reason, figure out what the impact of it is. And it may not, it's a different business model right now, it may not always be that best cost solution or best payback solution. But we need to take a look at it, plan it out and avoid what they call lock in, don't if you replace something today, like for like and it doesn't fit into your carbon plan for the future, you've probably made a 20 year decision. So that piece of equipments gonna last 20 or 25 years, you don't get to make that decision again. So you've kind of locked in that missed opportunity for 20 or 25 years. So if you do the math on that now we're talking 2040/2045. So if people are putting pressure on you to reduce your greenhouse impact, and you're putting in equipment that is just like for like and not moving sticks, then those are things we need to think about. A big part of the carbon world is just it's reducing greenhouse gases. So a lot of times natural gas is great fuel. It's not as great for climate as maybe electricity is because we live in a very low carbon electricity, world and material here. So it's finding ways to maybe do better. And I'm not suggesting replacing gas boilers with electric boilers, because you probably can't make the business case for it. But you may want to look at things: We can talk about them heat pumps, things like that, that use electricity more efficiently, or use less gas. So that's one of the things too is always the less you use it but the less you pay for it, the less impact you have on the climate world.
Dan Seguin 09:45
Okay, Glenn, what types of investments would you recommend from the owners of Canada's largest commercial real estate properties and from municipalities? What should they invest in now versus later?
Glenn Mooney 09:59
Well, that's actually the heat pump is a good example. They don't fit everywhere. I'm not there's no one solution for this. It's just think about it. What are my options? So what are not but the other side of that equation are what are natural gas price is going to be? So the federal government's been pretty clear that they're moving up the carbon price on natural gas to $170 a tonne by 2030. That's not that far out. So what impact is that going to have on the natural gas impact? Because you're probably basing your decisions right now on what natural gas prices are today, you need to look at what they might be in the future. There is a focus on electrification. So what can I do to use electricity more efficiently in my building, and maybe less carbon negative products if you want to use that term. So things like the heat pumps, envelope opportunities, making your envelope using again, like using less, sealing things up better automation, controlling your building more, so that you're only using the energy you need to do the purpose it's intended to new age factor approaches. So again, those might be challenging business cases, but get some help making those decisions.
Dan Seguin 11:07
Now, looking for some tips, Glenn, what are some untapped or low hanging fruit options that folks either haven't thought about or considered that you would recommend?
Glenn Mooney 11:19
I always go to my, if you don't need to use it, use less of it. So that's the number one thing, the cheapest option is the pure conservation. Take a really good look at how you use energy in all forms. And find out ways that you can reduce the amount of energy use things like lighting, still a good option, like LED more efficient lighting, turning lights off when people aren't in spaces, HVAC, managing your automation system so that you're not using energy in hours that the building's unoccupied, we still need HVAC, we need to provide air and there's a lot of focus on that these days with little COVID situation but use it wise. Other technologies are coming along, I keep kind of going back to heat pumps, they they may be a more expensive option right now. But we're seeing a lot of movement in costing and we're seeing a lot of movement in performance. So there may be as a good business case to look at some of the newer technologies like that.
Dan Seguin 12:16
Great segue here. Certainly, technology changes quickly. But there's a lot of tech that exists today that can help building owners and municipalities prepare for the future. What are some out of the box ways that today's technology can help?
Glenn Mooney 12:36
I keep harping on cold climate heat pumps, we've we've done a lot of work with them lately. And just the the performance levels and even the last three, four or five years they've improved and they're being built for Canadian environment, we're not your typical environment globally, where minus 30 minus 40 some days in the wintertime. And what we're finding is we're getting these, these heat pumps are starting to perform well at minus 20, even minus 30, some of them even at minus 25. So we're we're getting a lot more efficiency out of these products. And I think with adoption, we're going to start to see the pricing come down. They already have quite a bit right now. And there's some really good technologies out there right now,
Dan Seguin 13:18
Glenn, the Government of Canada has just introduced new funding, and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector, promising $3 billion to establish a netzero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. What are some of the highlights? And what should clients know?
Glenn Mooney 13:40
So great programs in this, there's quite a few out I've just even in the last month, I've seen the three or four announcements of different programs for different applications. So great programs, a lot of money on the table, those are billions, not millions. So that 'b' is a big factor. So I think it's going to drive a lot of change. I think they'll be more programs coming as well. And they tend to be more sector specific or industry specific or building types. So you're gonna start to see more tailored programs, I think coming out. Bottom line, know what you want to do have your roadmap in place, plan for it, get a little bit of help, the one thing we are finding with a lot of these incentive programs is there needs to be a really good justification built at the start of it, which may take a little bit of energy modeling, creating a benchmark that they can actually assign the performance part of the incentive to. So that's quite often a little intimidating for customers. So that's one thing that we spent a lot of time doing. They are usually post project incentives. So you do need to put the capital aside. It's a call it a rebate or an incentive after the fact. So you want to make sure that you've done everything properly. You don't want to jeopardize the incentive. So read closely. They are there's some pretty good programs out there.
Dan Seguin 14:56
Now can you give us some examples of work Envari is doing and how you've helped clients reduce their energy usage and save money?
Glenn Mooney 15:06
Yeah, sure. The we're spending a lot of time right now doing deep retrofits. So a deep retrofit is to go into a building. Look at every way that it uses energy, find out how to reduce A) the amount of energy. So you need to, in lots of cases get at least a 25% reduction, which is a challenge, it's not easy. Also looking at what can I do with fuels to get more climate friendly, reduce the footprint and then reduce the GHG. So the deep retrofit, it starts with a study, it has to be integrated, everybody has to be involved, because it does affect operations in a lot of cases, too. So you need everybody at the table to, to work through it. It is a big process. And it looks at things like the envelope. Things like heating and cooling. So we've done a lot of work with electric boilers. And again, not not the need to replace everything on electric boiler. But there may be places where a smaller electric boiler serves a purpose. And it can be maybe dispatched on price signals when it's when it's cheaper to run electric boiler and make sense to run it then run it. Things like that, again, the heat pumps everywhere he comes through, they're kind of a unique thing because they provide you heat, but they also provide you cooling. So the air conditioning is part of that. But they also allow you to move heat around. So in commercial spaces or institutional spaces, heat pumps quite often can take heat from one area, put it somewhere else or take cool and put it somewhere. So it can be a whole ecosystem in and of itself in a building. We're doing three schools right now where it's driven by ventilation improvements based on COVID. But the heat pumps are there, we're offsetting baseboard heat with the heat pumps, we're adding cooling to a lot of spaces that didn't have room which is ideal in schools, we're putting in a lot of energy recovery ventilators or heat recovery ventilator, so let's not waste that heat. Let's not dump it outside. We need the fresh air. But let's use the heat that's in that air, not let it leave the building so that we're maximizing as much as we can. And that's all underpinned by a building automation system. So a lot of emphasis on good building automation, proper schedules, proper strategies, do everything you can to use as little as you can. And then lighting, we do a ton of lighting, indoor lighting, outdoor lighting, it's a big part.
Dan Seguin 17:22
Okay, let's now fast forward to post pandemic. What is your prediction for commercial real estate? Will people return to the office towers downtown like before? Ultimately, what do you hope these emission targets will achieve for companies and municipalities? Will they be required to innovate plan for a sustainable future and control costs?
Glenn Mooney 17:49
All of the above, it's going to be a challenge. It's it's we're in such a strange time right now. It's obviously it starts with a lot more awareness of ventilation in your buildings, people we didn't talk that much about it before, we just assumed that we had lots of fresh air, but COVID has really highlighted that and put a spotlight on it. So I think building owners have a lot of they need to pay a lot of attention to that because I think their tenants or their users or the community, whoever's in their buildings are demanding that and it's gonna be a struggle to balance those dollars because we've we've lost opportunities over the last year, we've incurred a lot of costs over the last year. Now you're asking what society is asking for us to spend more and more money to green our fleet of buildings and more value to our shareholders, our shareholder want to see us reduce our carbon footprints, as well. So it's going to be a lot of planning. And that's the thing is, everybody needs some help. There's a lot out there. I don't think anybody has all of the answers. I certainly don't. But I think it's going to take a little bit more thinking than we've kind of riden through in the last few decades with just in general with energy management. And again, I can't stress enough be careful with your decisions do not lock in equipment for 20 or 25 years and lose an opportunity to meet your long term goals.
Dan Seguin 19:08
Okay, Glenn, what's exciting you right now about the energy management and energy solutions industry
Glenn Mooney 19:17
it's it's just really disruptive right now it's it's a challenge to balance energy efficiency with electrification it's counterintuitive at times like it opposes each other you've got you know, you use less, use cheapest use, you know, reduce greenhouse gas is just so many variables out there now that we're all trying to manage. It's not an easy task. And the landscape, it's changing, it's going to change for the next few decades like this is I've done energy management for 30 years I've kind of seen progression from you know, I started in the days they were you know, they said go electric, which is, you know what is old is new again, but what they meant there is get your oil furnace out and go to an electric furnace will go electric Now has a totally different meaning to it. So the other thing is 2030. A lot of goals are set for 2030. That's only nine years out. And if anybody's been working for a few years, nine years flies by very quickly.
Dan Seguin 20:13
Okay, we're just about done here. Glenn. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions?
Glenn Mooney 20:21
Ready to go?
Dan Seguin 20:22
Glenn, what is your favorite word?
Glenn Mooney 20:29
I don't know if I have that. I know a lot of words through COVID. I haven't been crazy about like, pivot and something to do with COVID. I guess just optimism. I just, yeah, I like people that are optimistic. I like when people use that word. And that's the driving force behind what they're trying to do.
Dan Seguin 20:47
Now, what is the one thing you can't live without?
Glenn Mooney 20:52
Early on in COVID are working from home, I bought noise cancelling headphones. And I can't believe how valuable they have become in so many different aspects of my life, not just sitting in front of my computer for work, but going for a walk and just listening to music and just drowning out street noise.
Dan Seguin 21:09
I like that. What is something that challenges you?
Glenn Mooney 21:13
Oh, I'll make it recent COVID I find with COVID not just me, I think everybody, there's just so many balls up in the air. And I think the biggest thing is just try not to drop too many of them, you know, you're gonna drop some of them, pick them up as quick as you can and get it repaired.
Dan Seguin 21:28
Now, Glenn, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Glenn Mooney 21:35
Probably not to bore people. I find, you know, listening, listening teachers is a lot more than talking. And I guess I'm always trying to be cognizant of that. I'd rather I'd rather listen to what people say than to always found my opinion on them.
Dan Seguin 21:49
And if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?
Glenn Mooney 21:56
People that you always think that don't get it? People like I am right now. They've actually seen a lot. They've learned a lot. They've tried a lot of things. They're not as dumb as you may think they are. But the other side of that is don't grow old and cynical, because that's the one thing I've really tried to avoid. Keep learning. Like I have 18 great nieces and nephews and I learned more from them than I learned from most people in my life. So stay young. Have fun.
Dan Seguin 22:21
Okay. And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting about your sector
Glenn Mooney 22:29
Change. I've, done energy management for over 30 years, I have never seen a rate of change like there is right now. And right behind is a rate of technology development for energy storage, electric vehicles are coming we're all seeing that come quick - discussions like we've just had, we now have to rethink how we do things in our buildings. And in our life, just it's things are changing very quickly. It's gonna be a fun next decade.
Dan Seguin 22:54
Well, Glenn, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast if somebody wanted to connect what is the best way
Glenn Mooney 23:02
our website Envari.com please reach out, reach out. Always happy to chat.
Dan Seguin 23:11
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
From policy to infrastructure to new and old buildings, how can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reductions, creating co-benefits for people and the planet? Thomas Mueller, President & CEO at Canada Green Building Council, joins us to share why this is a ‘critical decade’ for the green building market and why green buildings are an actionable solution for helping Canada meet its goals for economic development, job creation, and GHG reductions.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. As cities struggle with the pressure to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, better support green jobs, and hyper competitive real estate markets, they must find new and creative solutions that address short and long term issues. This includes creating a low or zero carbon future, which requires a step by step process to retrofit our existing communities and ensure all future builds are net zero carbon operations by 2050. From policy to infrastructure to new and old buildings. How can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reductions, creating co benefits for people and the planet. As of 2018, the green building industry added over 164,000 jobs, which is 55% greater than 2014. Over the same period, Canada's oil and gas extraction, mining and forestry industries stagnated in terms of job growth, they contracted by 2.8% and shed 7580 positions. Canadians have grown conscious of a broader range of social and environmental challenges. This shift and resulting public pressure have in turn spurred policymakers and industry leaders to raise the bar on sustainability, leading to increased government activity and higher standards for both building codes and industry certifications. As a result, green building certification programs are not only growing increasingly stringent, but also broadening in scope. Over the past decade, they have raised the bar on energy efficiency, renewable energy and sustainability practices. By extension, they have changed the way Canadians design, construct, maintain and operate buildings. A large percentage of Canada's buildings continue to be constructed without green building practices, or third party certification. building codes and municipal bylaws in provinces such as British Columbia are driving market transformation via new construction. So here's today's big question: is the existing building market really the most significant untapped opportunity for economic development, job creation, and GHG reduction in Canada? Our guest today leads the Canada Green Building Council national green building strategy, programs and standards, along with advocacy and policy initiatives. He's also the founding director of the Canada Green Building Council, and became president and CEO of the council in 2005. Dear listeners, please welcome Thomas Meuller. Thomas, you're a well known advocate for green buildings and sustainable community developments. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, What drew you to your current role? And what the Canada Green Building Council does?
Thomas Mueller 04:09
Thank you for inviting me. My name is Thomas Mueller. I'm the president and CEO of an organization called the Canada Green Building Council. And we've been advocating for green building practices since 2005. And, and we are really focusing on changing the practices in the billing industry ever since what really drew me to this to this work was that I, you know, I was inspired at the time and this is a long time ago by our common future, which was the Frampton report, as it was referred to the first mention of sustainable development and didn't take me long to realize that the building sectors, one of the sectors that have there's no other sector in the world has more impact, not just on climate change, but also how we live and our economy than the building sector. So that in the late 1990s, I was drawn to that sector to make changes, the other would help us reduce the environmental impact from that sector.
Dan Seguin 05:26
Now, how can we create cities that improve lives through deep carbon reduction, creating cool benefits for people and the planet? Why should we strive to make every building greener?
Thomas Mueller 05:43
So when you look at the building sector, or in cities, when we and it's getting better now, but when we use to cover climate change in this country, usually, if you watch CBC or CTV, it was always the one standing in front of big chimneys that would kind of admit, what I guess, was carbon emissions was big factories or it was transportation was standard on hot in front of a highway and just, you know, talk about how these two sectors transportation, and factories would just be the main culprit in climate change. The fact is, they're very high emitters. But actually, a building sector in Canada and globally is about 30%. And that includes both the operation of the building, so the heating, cooling, light lighting, but it also includes the embodied materials, so the body carbon materials, so that includes the energy used to make steel, the energy to use make any parts of the building. So it's a significant footprint that a building sector has. And the building sector also employs a lot of people. And we live in those buildings. So it's about the opportunity about carbon reduction. But it's also the opportunity that buildings are made for people. And we want to make sure that we balancing our environmental aspirations that we have a building in the in Canada green building, kind of context, that would help us to also look at how can buildings be good for people, because at the end of the day, that's what we build buildings for, to live, to learn to work. It's this combination of in the building sector, the impact, and the also the impact that buildings have on our lives. And on the environment. It's a combination of that. And so it's a great opportunity to combine those in green buildings, and also the green building sectors, the only one, we talked about climate change, and the other things is that actually has return on investment. And not just from the energy, but you have people in buildings that are more productive, that are healthier, that has a direct impact on his employer, for government, people are healthier, happier, more productive, that has a positive impact all around.
Dan Seguin 08:12
Okay, Thomas, wondering how important is it to balance our carbon reduction ambitions with health considerations, particularly during and after COVID-19? Do we have a clear path to show carbon leadership with healthier indoor environments, that future proof buildings, encourage innovation and drive job growth?
Thomas Mueller 08:36
Yes, we do. So I think we need to there are several questions here there Can we need to pick apart a little bit. One is that we absolutely need to balance our ambitions around carbon reduction, energy efficiency with human health and well being. Because we don't want to go back to the 1970s, where we can over insulate buildings and people get existing in those buildings, right. And just as a human being, I think we want to have access to to light when we work on those buildings to daylighting those buildings, we want to have access to fresh air, we want to have access to an environment that makes us feel healthy and relaxed, because then that's when we do our best, let's say in the working environment, or in a learning environment at school for children. Or when you're at home, you just want to make sure that the air and the light in your building are healthy. And so we want to make sure that how we design our buildings are on carbon because there's one trend where you want to have you know super insulated buildings and don't get me wrong. Energy Efficiency is very important when we get to low carbon non zero carbon buildings. But at the same time, we have to make sure that not only basic human needs are met that we want to enhance those needs in buildings. So we need to design them accordingly. So we need to balance those two. Now COVID has provided an extra kind of layer around how people think about buildings. Because before then I think most people didn't really think too much about, you know, ventilation, when you went to work ventilation or air flow, or those types of things, with COVID has come really into focus. Now that buildings need to be not only safe, but also be healthy. I think it's a great opportunity to rethink how buildings can be, not just from an environmental point of view, but also from a health point of view. The, I think the the final solution, on what, how buildings will operate after the pandemic is over I, after updating has kind of retreated, because I think it will be busy with us for a while, is still out. But definitely what we know is that more fresh air in buildings will be very important. And then there's filtration of that air and there will be humidification of the air and so on. So what the final solution is really depends also, you know, where you are, what kind of building it is, that solution is still out. But it's a great opportunity to look at and say what can buildings be from a health point of view, and not even just because of COVID. But beyond COVID, because we want healthier buildings, but we also want them to be low carbon, we want them to be water efficient, we want them to be materially efficient, we want to recycle. And that's something as the council we have been advocating for the last 20 years through our LEED building rating system is called Leadership in Energy, Environmental Design. We have advocated for that. So what we call that is holistic buildings that are good for the environment, they're good for people, and they're good for the economy, right? And buildings, only sector we can actually materialize that we can actually realize that you can invest in environmental solutions, you can invest in human based solutions, and you can have a return on investment. So in a way, you can eat, you can have your cake. And you can eat it too, when it comes to buildings and and, you know, environment in business in green buildings is the epitome of that where this comes together in a very meaningful and very outcome based way.
Dan Seguin 12:26
How do we accelerate to a netzero economy? How can we create efficiencies to reduce environment at risks?
Thomas Mueller 12:36
Do you think there's the several, I think several factors playing into that and how we can accelerate that is one. First of all, I think we need good government policy. And we see that with the current federal government, they have actually done more on on climate change policy than all the previous governments taken together as far as I'm concerned. And it's finally good to see that we have made not only policy, but there's also investment issues seen in that in the budget, the last budgets come out and announcements before that. There's been a real investment or investments being made in in helping the economy and the Environment and Climate to move towards low and zero carbon. Because I think that the goals are clear, right that the goals are ambitious. But they're not ambitious in Canada, they're ambitious globally. But this government has really made an effort. And that starts with trust before the budget, where minister McKenna announced the I don't know how much money was but it wasn't one point, I think $1.6 billion for underserved communities, smaller and underserved communities in terms of retrofit and new buildings and buildings supposed to be, you know, low or zero carbon was an announcement by the Canada infrastructure bank financing program of $2 billion to finance retrofits in the commercial sector, like large building retrofits. There was announcements in the budget around the workforce development because we can't forget we also need to invest in the workforce so that people are skilled. And we have enough people that actually can kind of renovate or rent retrofit and build those buildings. And then also that investment in Canadian economy, in producers to decarbonize, right. So it's nice to say, you know, you need products that have a lower carbon footprint. But, you know, you've been talking from extraction, to manufacturing, to installation to us to disposal, that's a long lifecycle, and you need to decarbonize the whole product, product supply chain, in order to get there. So we so we have that part. So practice, government, and we also see replicated provincial level and you see it replicated at the local level. Many municipalities as you know, I've announced a climate emergency - great. But now, it's always the challenges. It's not just that you plan and you announce, but what about the implementation? How can you make that happen now, in buildings, again, is a natural go-to. Because government is the biggest owner of buildings in our country, collectively, the federal government owns a lot of buildings, municipalities and provinces all around the building. Federal government has announced for its own building that they want to build the buildings to zero carbon by 2030, or their own buildings, that they want to retrofit the existing buildings to low carbon performance. They're the only one to lease office space on leased buildings that is zero carbon buildings by 2030. So they take a lot of steps also, as an owner as a procurer of products and services, to go that route. But the second part, then is the private sector, we have to get the private sector on board. Because remember that you cannot, you cannot regulate your way out of this. We actually need the private sector needs to be at the table and actually invest in the low current economy. And for us, on the building side, we really see that happen. Many of our largest members in the council, large commercial real estate owners have invested in green buildings in a massive way, in their portfolio of buildings. We see governments across the country have federal government, provincial governments, local governments using LEED and other standards that we that we provide for their own buildings. So but the private sector mezzanine is really important. And this whole aspect of and I'm sure you've been following that is around sustainable finance, that all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but companies across North America and abroad have realized that climate is a risk. And that if it's left unchecked, it will actually detrimental to their business. And they have started to shift their investment patterns into into the direction that mitigates carbon emissions, but also investments into resiliency, building up the resiliency of the building stock of the building stock. So you see a real shift that's happening now on a financial side as well. And that's very much business driven. So those two really have to come together. Because if business beliefs, and I see it happen, our business believes that climate risk is real, which they do. And they believe that they can actually get a return on the investment by investing in climate solutions, then this can move actually fought their way quickly, supported by good policy and good regulation, to raise the whole ship.
Dan Seguin 17:55
For this question, Thomas, could you share with our listeners examples of how does your council make inroads towards reducing the environmental impact of the build environment.
Thomas Mueller 18:09
So we as the council for just so everybody understands that. So we, we continue to be an environmental organization. But we very much industry led, so our board and our members represent a cross section of the of the green building or the building industry, from designers, to owners, to manufacturers, to investors, to developers, and so on. And that's by design. Because we need all the different professional, the different expertise and knowledge to different sectors and sub sectors at the table. What we do is and how we started off, and what we still do is we actually set advanced standards for buildings. So LEED is an example of that. That another one is the zero carbon standard that we launched, our over three years ago, we set advanced standards for buildings that go well beyond the building code. And these standards are set in a way with the industry. So we working with the leaders in the industry, the set of standards, because we want to have standards that work in industry. And that work well in industry. So the industry feels they can build those buildings to that level, they can invest on those buildings, and it's actually possible, but there is depending on how far you want to go. There's considerable amount of stretching there. So it's not being you're not satisfied with the status quo. So one way is we setting standards and then we also those those building owners and developers that use our standards, we actually certify these projects, so we make sure that the meeting of standards, so we have a verification, quality assurance process to make sure it's being met and depending on what they achieve. We recognize them publicly for that achievement. In Canada After the US, Canada is the largest use of LEED in the world. LEED exists nine in 200 countries, Canada was the first adopter of LEED. We're currently about 1.5 billion square feet in our LEED program alone, across the country coast to coast to coast. Any climate, any billing time, you can imagine in our program, we have certified close to 5000 of those buildings now. setting a new standard for buildings, but in a holistic way. So energy, carbon water waste, sites, how we treat the site habitat. And then also, of course, as we talked about human health and transportation as well. So this is one way and then Mr. Pointing is that this standard through education, we are credit professionals. We organize events, like our national conference every year, and also very specific industry events. And then we also convene leaders in the industry. And we do a considerable amount of effort activity, advocating with all levels of government, and also with the private sector as well, all with the focus to moving the needle forward. So it's really it's a we have a very comprehensive approach on how to move the industry forward and education in that we trained professionals. But we also have the workforce development, as I mentioned before, that we need to train, from the trades to the architects in sufficient numbers, so we can deliver green building at scale. Scale matters a great deal.
Dan Seguin 21:40
Okay, you've alluded to this a little earlier, with buildings generating almost 30% of Canada's GHG emissions. When construction materials, processes and operations are considered. Why are green buildings an actionable solution for helping Canada meet its global change commitments.
Thomas Mueller 22:01
Going back to what I said earlier, no initiative focuses very much on transportation. And I'm all for transit systems. I take transit every day, and I never drive to work. And so and obviously, the large emitters need also be targeted. But the fact is that we cannot reach our climate change goals without addressing the building sector is not just in Canada, I think it's recognized globally, particularly over the last five years, did buildings play a huge role in not just new buildings, again, we can build our way out of the climate crisis, we need to actually really focus on retrofit, and that includes a large building retrofit. So it counts as a substantial program around large building retrofits of those buildings, over 25,000 square feet, that they need to be retrofitted at scale in the 1000s. Actually, and that's actually miracle other jurisdictions, if you go into in the European Union, they dedicate is something like a thing was 230 billion euros to retrofitting buildings across the member states. So it's called as part of the new green deal that they have in, in Europe. And that's significant. So it just shows you that without the building sector, we will not achieve our climate change goals. It's impossible. So there's a realization now there is now investment in terms of policy and grant and funding programs and regulations. But we still have a half a ways to go. Because in Canada, we have like last time, we have about 250,000 buildings, and millions of millions and millions of homes that need to operate a lot better than they are right now.
Dan Seguin 23:49
Now, Thomas wondering if you can expand on these next questions. Can green buildings become an economic driver? Can green buildings stimulate growth in the green building sector? And lastly, how can a green recovery that prioritizes green buildings accelerate the post COVID-19 economic rebound?
Thomas Mueller 24:17
It's all great. Good questions. Very good questions that I can answer. And I have actually some figures for you because we did just that we actually did a last year, we released a green building report that we did it was for the second time and it's called the Canada's green building engine. And it talks about the critical decade ahead leading up to 2013. But it also talks about the economic recovery. Just to give you a sense then is that in 2014 we had close to 300,000 full time employees in the green building industry. So these were individuals that worked on green buildings in Canada in the two years and four years after that, so by 2018, this has had increased by 55%. And it was with very little, just a bit of government intervention. So 55, those numbers of jobs actually exceed the jobs that you have in forestry and logging in oil and gas mining, and some of the support activities to support the oil and gas industry. Because they had by 2018, to about 260 to 263,000 jobs, versus the 460,000 shops in the green building industry, I just wanted to point it out, because people always get the the idea that these are this is one of our biggest employers, when in fact, the green buildings team employs a lot of people. Now, we estimated that if we continue with business as usual, by 2030, so without intervention, you just, you know, leave it by own devices. The by 2030, will have about 940,000, direct green building jobs, and close to 95 billion indirect GDP from green for green building industry. And we will eliminate 22.5 million tonnes of co2 in Canada. If the government were to invest in we have seen some of the investment this can be aggregated up quite significantly. If the government were to invest significant amount of money, which we're seeing now, these green building jobs grew up to about 1.41 million jobs. And the carbon reduction could more than double close tomorrow, just about 50 million tons. Now, that's significant in terms of just economic growth. And what plays into that is also that you create not just jobs, but he also creates skilled jobs. And he also jobs as an opportunity to skill chops, across the board in particular trades can kind of go spilling industries actually using a jobs even before a pandemic to the retirement. And this is real opportunity to bring new people into the industry, young professionals in the industry in skilled jobs. Because constructing and building low carbon fuel carbon buildings requires an enhanced skill set we currently don't have across the board. It also provides an opportunity to be more inclusive, and more diverse now workforce bring parts of our society into this workforce that currently does not participate in active way. Women construction industry is notorious for not having broad employment of women or underrepresented communities. So it's a real opportunity. But it's really opportunity to grow the economy because I think, post pandemic, I think it would be unfortunate that we go back to the business as usual. I think it's a real opportunity to pivot and to be ambitious and say, What is the Canada that we actually want? What do we want our buildings what we want our neighborhoods? What What, what do we want our cities to look like in terms of carbon in terms of livability, in terms of environmental footprint terms of our economy, and this is the real opportunity for government to invest because we know now that when money is needed, it can be made available to invest in something we have learned from a pandemic, when there's the climate crisis, if you and I'm you know, I'm an optimist, but you often hear the climate crisis, it will be way worse than anything that happened on the COVID-19. And the likelihood is very high, that that will be the case. But we have an opportunity to change course. And if we change because we have to do it now. We can't wait another 10 years, if we don't get to our 2030 goals, we certainly will not get to our 2015 goals. So we really have to have all hands on deck and move that keep the move the needle forward and I think, in the course of that grew our economy and develop new jobs, that drops and low carbon economy. Now,
Dan Seguin 29:33
let's bring out your crystal ball and set the dial to 2030. And the question is as follows. How much difference will building be making to our progress to net zero goals?
Thomas Mueller 29:49
Well, I think that if I look to 2030, what would I want to have accomplished? I would think by 2030 I would want all new buildings over a certain size, they say 25,000 square feet to build zero carbon performance, we can already do that now, we already have 25 buildings in Canada that are zero carbon certified and another 50 plus in the pipeline. So we really can do that now. So that's one. The other one is I would want a large building retrofit. at scale, we estimated and don't say that that's a prime number. And you know, we talk to economists, and everybody has their own numbers, but they're all relatively close. But you have to look at it that over the next 10 years, we probably have to retrofit anywhere between 50 and 60,000 buildings, over 25,000 square feet to be 20 to 40% more carbon efficient after the retrofit than now. So that's a big number. It's, it's a big number, but it's not insurmountable. And then the third one is where we'd really like to see is have to work for us build up have a more diverse and more workers in the building industry, that is more representative of Canada. And, and I think that would be really something really a very desirable goal. And also to expand buildings, not just to the Green buildings is a little bit the perception, and I think it's not deserved, but it's mainly into urban centers, and so on. I think, with the announcement of the primary federal government also present small and under underserved communities, I would like to see green buildings all over the country, I like to see green buildings in neighborhoods that are considered to be on the low income side. Because I think my in my books, I think the people that are the least able financially, should actually have the greenest buildings, they should be demands, the buildings are the healthiest. And they should have buildings that cost less to operate or to rent or to live in than any other demographic in Canada. So I think that you're expanding that concept. And you know what, the already plenty of affordable housing projects that have been built to LEED. They've been schools and built to zero carbon. It's not like that. But I think it's goes back to scale. So in 10 years from now, I think I would just like green buildings everywhere, not just in a big urban regions in Canada, but everywhere. And this is really the challenge. And then it becomes not just, oh, it's a green building something different. It's just becomes a part of fabric of our lives that yes, you know, we have high expectations from our buildings, when it comes to environmental and health performance.
Dan Seguin 32:58
Interesting. Now, let's keep on looking into the future here. What are some of the emerging technologies, innovations that hold much promise for the future of energy efficient, and net zero homes? What's exciting new right now about this industry?
Thomas Mueller 33:18
What is excited me about my the industry is that there continues to be a movement for it, because the building sector is always considered to be very traditional and slow moving. But it's actually the green building sector that is moving forward very, very quickly, with big companies being at the table making decisions around the quality, and just the scale of what they want to do with their buildings that they own or control. So I think very excited about that, and just the technology innovation, in terms of new technology. I think that overall, for carbon emission reduction, we do see a lot of technology coming up now around, you know, that are connected to electrification of buildings, the buildings need to be electrified. And that within that context, you'll see you know, more highly insulated buildings. You see a buildings that either have at least part of the renewable energy on site. But also in Canada, we have the advantage to take advantage of our green electricity in many parts of the country. And in that regard, you know, heat pumps often come you know, to the forefront is a technology that is having its day now and in the future. Of course, it's still more expensive than traditional way of heating and cooling buildings. But there's that opportunity and I'm also a big fan of geothermal. Generally to exchange system, your thermal systems as a way to maybe not on a single family home, but on community development. So I think the district aspect of what we're doing, I think is really important to that, how we look into that because there's all despite the pandemic there's a lot of building going on in Canada and the big projects that are being planned in you know, in Ottawa, you have Zibi, you have the, the National Capital Commission is developing this piece of land law pipe in France, where they're very ambitious targets in Toronto and Mississauga and all over the country depicted here in Vancouver, we have big developments going in south of the Broad Street Bridge. One on native land, indigenous land, the very ambitious and how they think about what these communities could be and housing 1000s and 1000s of people. So, these are district systems, I think we need to, it's good to think about building by building, but we also need to think about what neighborhood and community scale and how do you transform entire communities to be low carbon performance, right. And so district systems definitely come into play here and district system that of course are on renewable energy, or connected to a clean energy, clean energy grid, and BC 95%, carbon free, Ontario as a cleaner Quebec, and Alberta has plans to, to get off, you know, coal based electricity. So it's all going in the right direction,
Dan Seguin 36:37
Acting as a voice of the green building industry, your organization has been advocating for green building policy with all levels of government and the private sector across Canada. Have your efforts impacted green building standards?
Thomas Mueller 36:53
Yes, it absolutely has. Because when, when we did the rating systems in Canada, they be using a voluntary, so they're not they're not in code, per se. They're done by the owners voluntarily, in our rating systems reference best available standards. So they're not just, you know, written the base of a napkin, this is a very solid, very credible, based on very credible standards. But the way they often many instances, go beyond the code. And what that does is in the past, I mean, continue to do that with a zero carbon buildings, it actually shows those that are in charge of developing the code, that these buildings can be built now at a reasonable cost. And that's very important, because in bringing it down to reasonable cost is necessary so that the code officials can say, you know, we can take that step now. Because everybody in the industry can do it now at a reasonable costs, because the no power is available, the products are available, technology is available. So they can probably and we have been told that in the past, they were able to take the code further, based on the voluntary action that the industry has taken that we could have done otherwise. And that's a really important role for the counselor as well to continue to push the envelope to push it forward to what's doable. And we've been very successful at that over the last since 2004. And so that's a very important role. But the regulations at the same time, also have become more ambitious. So we look for ticket cities like city of Toronto, City of Vancouver, they are probably more ambitious codes on what they would like how to like regulate new buildings. And now they are also particularly have started to also look at existing buildings. And the federal government is planning also to develop a retrofit code, which will be the first of its kind in Canada to really start addressing building retrofit. So again, through our work, we hope to continue to inform codes and what's possible from a kind of a market perspective. And then also what's possible from from a technical and technology perspective as well. So we see that as our role, we are kind of your breaking new paths when it comes to buildings. And we have members and stakeholders that are very committed to this idea to this mission, and to use their skills to make that happen. So that's one of the core roles that we have and we kind of quantify that then through our own standards. They make sure it's done right. And and it's it's it's measurable and you can report out on it. Let's try As parents, it's very important to us. Now,
Dan Seguin 40:03
let's deep dive, and maybe even explore some of the key market trends and drivers that are enabling and accelerating Canada's shift to high efficiency, zero emission buildings, and how could these impact Canada's green building industry.
Thomas Mueller 40:23
Now, the big shifts are clearly the recognition of climate risk by the private sector, which is also addressed in what they call ESG - environmental, social and governance frameworks. And also expressed as we talked earlier, about sustainable investment, sustainable finance. You know, Mark Carney is one of the big players in this globally when it comes to financial disclosures, addressing climate risk, but also sustainable finance. So this is a big trend, that means the private sector stepping up and coming to the table, investing in things that actually mitigate carbon or eliminate carbon or reduce climate risk altogether. The second one is, of course, that the policy around carbon, we heard a couple of weeks ago that our targets are moving up now to more 40-45% by 2030, being consistent with the United States, and being consistent with the global emergence of what the current target should be. And you know, timing matters, right? It's climate change. But in Canada, and particularly North accelerating faster than we thought. So acceleration requires more focused and more targeted action. The third piece of that is, of course, a carbon pricing. carbon pricing, as it leaves it up to the business sector, and everyone else to decide how they want to reduce the carbon is a very effective mechanism to achieve corporate action across the economy. It's even though the carbon price of $50 it's a step in the right direction, but we need to actually be moving up $150-$170, or potentially even higher over the next 1015 years, is a, it's a very important aspect of driving the economy forward when it comes to carbon reduction. Because let's face it, there is a price on carbon that we already paying, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of human health, there's all kinds of impacts, and there needs to be a price on carbon to achieve that reduction. So it's the sustainable finance. It's the policy, it's the the price on carbon. And, and then the other one, the big market trends to that claim to carbon, how we started off our conversation today is this balance with health and wellness, health and wellness has risen very much to the top. And Canadians, like most people will care about the health and well being may very well be a high quality of life in Canada. And they care about health and well being and I think the green building agenda, the green buildings can actually help to enhance the health and well being of Canadians. By meeting the environmental aspects of the that that lie before us. Now, when it comes to in mind, we always focus on carbon, but there's so many biodiversity there is, you know, air pollution, there is water pollution, there is toxic substances in the environment. I mean, the list goes on and on.
Dan Seguin 43:55
I'd like to visit or let's say revisit, what is the role of certifications and building codes? And do you feel they've raised the bar on energy efficiency, renewable energy, and sustainability practices?
Thomas Mueller 44:12
Oh, Green Building Standards certainly have done that they have raised that considerably. And it's really up to the project owner to the developer to decide how far they want to go. But we have raised considerably the codes now doing that as well. A probably one of the best examples being used right off now is the BC step code, where they actually give some predictability in British Columbia, when the codes requirement will increase so the steps one to five currently, it's step one, and then insert meeting goal step two and sign up so that the industry has a good line of sight what the expectations are with regards to increasing the the building performance, environmental performance, and so on. So I think that's a really good tool. And generally, the code, particularly the local level getting more ambitious for those municipalities that can actually go beyond the provincial code. And federally, like I said, the codes are moving towards near net zero. And also there's also be a retrofit code. So there's movement there, they the the international code is always a bit challenging because it can be developed naturally with together with the provinces, but then the provinces still have to adopt it. And that sometimes can take time. In some ways can take years, provinces can make modifications to the code. So if I can give one message with the code, the codes are moving up and being more ambitious. But at the same time, I think the pace of adoption means a great deal. Because the code is on a five year cycle. It takes you five years to update the code. And then you put it into the industry and the provinces have to adopt it, you can lose a lot of time, till actually the first building is built to the code so that the code development cycle and the implementation cycle, the adoption cycle has to speed up. Because it can be like sometimes can be a decade before the first building is built to a new code. And we don't have that time. And I think it's 2030. So I think that's something that really needs to speed up across the country.
Dan Seguin 46:37
Okay, let's have a bit of fun here. Thomas. How about you close us off with some rapid fire questions? Okay, here's the first one What is your favorite word?
Thomas Mueller 46:50
responsibility
Dan Seguin 46:52
What is one thing you can't live without?
Thomas Mueller 46:58
trees
Dan Seguin 46:59
Okay, that's cool. Okay. What is something that challenges you?
Thomas Mueller 47:05
status quo
Dan Seguin 47:07
Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Thomas Mueller 47:12
I would restore ecosystems globally.
Dan Seguin 47:18
Great response here. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him, Thomas?
Thomas Mueller 47:29
I would tell him that it probably comes easier that he would tell him to be non conforming. And that you can actually create a different future.
Dan Seguin 47:39
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Thomas Mueller 47:44
I find it interesting that the billing industry tends to be viewed as a traditional. But there's a whole segment and a growing segment of the industry that's driving innovation now. So I think that's a big shift in an industry that's been changed very, very passively change very, very slowly.
Dan Seguin 48:07
Thomas, I hope you had fun. I had a blast. I'm sure our listeners will truly enjoy this interview. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast, and for past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
According to a recent survey by chartered professional accountants Canada 34% of Canadians have fallen victim to scams and frauds. Sadly, the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make quick money from unsuspecting energy consumers. Here with us to discuss the criminal minds behind utility scams is Jared Lawrence, Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy. He is also the founder and executive committee chair of an organization known as Utilities United Against Scams - a sort of Justice League for the energy industry. Tune in to learn how to protect yourself and your loved ones.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Catch me if you can. Fyre festival, the greatest party that never happened. The Wolf of Wall Street and catfish. We love to watch movies about scammers, grifters and con artists, but we never want to be on the receiving end of their schemes. Yet, according to a recent survey by chartered professional accountants Canada 34% of Canadians have fallen victim to scams and frauds. And the Canadian anti fraud centre reports that in 2019, nearly 45,000 Canadians lost $96 million to scammers. It may or may not be surprising. But the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make quick money from unsuspecting energy consumers like you and me. A scam is reported to the Better Business Bureau every 15 minutes. of the 30 different types of scams tracked and reported, the average financial loss to a utility customer is a whopping $500. And as we've seen firsthand in the energy industry, fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated. evolving with time. Scammers like to take advantage of opportunities throughout the covid 19 pandemic. We've seen an increase in their efforts through a call, text, email, and even show up in person at a customer's home and place of business to intimidate and threaten. A popular tactic includes posing as a representative of a local utility like Hydro Ottawa and demanding immediate payment for a supposedly overdue account. To add stress and pressure, they threatened to disconnect power within the hour if they do not get payment. Frantic customers already reeling from the pandemic and possibly economic hardships fall victim to these convincing criminals and their pressure tactics by purchasing prepaid debit cards, gift cards, any form of cryptocurrency, or third party digital payments mobile applications, utility companies have ramped up efforts to educate customers so they can be aware of the dangers of utility scams and avoid them. Hydro Ottawa for instance, has partnered with other large distributors in the province like Hydro One, Toronto hydro, and Alectra utilities over the last couple of years to help spread the word far and wide when a scam happens. So that as many regions as possible are notified. So here is today's big question: How can utility companies protect their customers from increasingly sophisticated schemes and fraud? Is the answer a united front? And on a personal note? Is this my first true crime podcast? We shall see. Joining me on today's show is Jared Lawrence, Vice President of revenue services and metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the US. Duke Energy provides electricity to 7.7 million customers in Florida, the Carolinas and parts of the Midwest. Jared is also the founder and executive committee chair of an organization known as utilities united against scams - a sort of Justice League for the energy industry if you will. Batman. I mean Jared, welcome to the show. Now Jared, scams are such a big problem in our industry that there's a utility Scam Awareness Day. And National Scam Awareness Week. That's how big the problems gotten. What can you tell us about utilities united against scams and your vision when you started it?
Jared Lawrence 05:25
Well, that's an excellent question. And there's actually a Hydro Ottawa connection that I will, I'll get to in a second, Dan. Really, utilities unite against scams started as a result of an internal investigation at my company, we were hosting our CEO, actually, in our call center where both our customer care agents as well as the back office employees report to me, we're having a q&a session with our CEO. And one of the customer care specialists raised her hand and said, Ms. Good, I'm, I'm really concerned, we have a lot of customers calling up about scammers. And they're convinced that these scammers actually have their information. What are we doing about this? and this was back in 2015. So this was on this was in the context of a number of high profile breaches with major retailers that were in the media. And so this was something we were definitely heightened, had a heightened sensitivity to. And she actually looked at me as as one of the two leaders in the room and said, "Yes, Jared, what are we doing about that?" I said, "Well, we're not doing anything, right now. But we're going to start tomorrow." And so we had actually, we commissioned a SWAT team internally to make sure that there were no data breaches, no breaches with our vendors, no, inside bad actors who were sharing information with scammers. And it became apparent very quickly, that these scammers did not actually have customer information. They were just brilliant social engineers, and all of our information networks were completely secure. So we got to the end of that effort, it took about, you know, three weeks to do that intensive investigation. And then I said to the team "Well now what?" we're not going to leave these folks, you know, our customers out there to fend for themselves against these criminals. What do we learn from this? And what can we do about it. And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that, that this is a problem of international scale, but each utility was attacking it as an individual entity. And we would have so much more presence, so much more of a voice in the public policy space, if we joined together as the as the influential industry that serves the public, and use our clout to basically push for change and better protect our customers. So that's not the concept of utilities in order to get scams was born. I made the pitch to a number of attendees at CS week. And so for many folks in the utility industry are aware that this week is the the customer service focus conference for utility professionals. This was back in in the spring of 2016, then, and immediately the cause essentially sold itself there were 25 utility organizations represented in the room and every single one of them came up to me afterwards, and expressed interest in becoming part of this vision of this industry effort. But it was actually in a breakfast conversation, later on during the conference with Dave McKendry, who's retired from Hydro Ottawa, who's become a friend of mine through our board work on CS week. And he pulled me aside he said, Jared, I've been thinking a lot about your utilities united against scams effort. And I suggest maybe you consider a national campaign. And, and the fact that utilities across North America are coming together, to work together for this specific event, this specific campaign that's newsworthy in and of itself. And I think, Jared that if you if you take that approach, you you will be able to attract so much more interest in this cause, and, frankly, so much more membership, and he was spot on. I thought it was a fantastic suggestion. We made that kind of the centerpiece of our first few months of existence back in 2016, culminating with our national utility Scam Awareness Day and actually utility Scam Awareness Week in November of 2016. The US House of Representatives of course, recognized us with the declaration of national utility Scam Awareness Day. And we went from 25 utility organizations that expressed interest at that first conference to 89 members by the time we get to that campaign in November, and since then, we've grown to where we are today at exactly 150 across the US and Canada. So it's grown beyond what I honestly could have expected or hoped for, but certainly not beyond that vision of the industry coming together to protect our customers against us against this very important Scourge.
Dan Seguin 09:58
Very interesting, Jared. What types of scams are appearing most often? Can you provide some real life examples? And has the global pandemic altered scam activity and its frequency?
Jared Lawrence 10:14
Excellent question. And so at the core, the scam that was the main focus of utilities back in 2015, when I started our investigation at Duke Energy and, and it remains today, it's that classic disconnection threat scam. So a customer gets a call from out of the blue from somebody purporting to be a representative of the utility. And they state that due to some sort of problem with the account or some sort of problem with a payment being returned by a bank or some, you know, some fabricated excuse like that, the customer's account is now overdue, and there is a disconnection technician in route to turn off the customer's power. Usually it's power. Sometimes it's other utilities, but almost, it's almost always power within the next 30 to 45 minutes. And so the customer needs to act they need to go purchase typically a prepaid card and call the scammers back with that information within the next 30 to 45 minutes to prevent disconnection. That was their bread and butter back in 2015. It's still our bread and butter today. What's interesting is that we've seen little variations in scammers. They're attuned to what's happening in in their market, so to speak, and how utilities and law enforcement and others are reacting to their tactics. And so they've tried certain things. So for example, they're one of the things that we saw at Duke Energy was that when our smart meters were being deployed in each of our territories, and in our, in our six electric states, the scammers at various times would attempt to kind of take they change the tactic and focus on a meter deposit that the customer had failed to pay something that wouldn't typically show up on a bill and that kind of thing. Kind of trying to capitalize on that on the headlines associated with the utility. And with utility at that particular time, those didn't work very well. So we tend to see the attempt to collect that meter deposit, that scam fell off pretty quickly. We've seen the scammers attempt text and email. sporadically, those don't seem to work very well either, because they don't have the same level of immediacy that a phone call has. So those those tend to flare up at times and then die out on their own. We've seen the scammers explore different payment channels. So we've had some customers report that the scammers have asked them to pay in Bitcoin, which, of course is absurd, because I don't know about Hydro Ottawa, but The Duke Energy certainly does not accept Bitcoin. We've seen them requests zelle transfers, which are actually traceable. So that would work very well for the banks. We've seen a several scammers recently try and use cash app. But their bread and butter has historically been prepaid cards and you know, one or two prepaid cards in particular brands of which I won't mention on on this podcast. But there there are one or two that stand out above all the rest is being particularly susceptible to fraud.
Dan Seguin 13:25
Are there any specific population groups who are frequently targeted? How can we, as a community offer better support to these groups? What's the best line of defense?
Jared Lawrence 13:40
So, you know, again, as with everything that I've seen in the six years that I've been heavily engaged in this topic, they tend to go in cycles. And so in the beginning, it seemed to be random, the victims, the targets seemed to be random. And so since it was random, there was you know, statistically the vast majority of utility customers are residential. And so there was a heavy focus on residential customers. What we started to see is and obviously, I've never spoken with a scammer to validate this. But what we started to see was that the scammers started to use tools, probably online maps, you know, simple tools like Google Maps, etc. to determine what were the businesses in a particular area and how close were they to some of the retail outlets that sold the prepaid cards that they like to use. And the reason they were focusing on businesses is if if they caught up a residential customer, and they would say to a residential customer, you're behind on your bill, you I was two months Well, they really couldn't ask for more than you know, a couple 100 bucks because a typical residential customer knows that they're your average utility bills not going to be that much more than 100 bucks unless it's the heat of the summer that are the depths of winter, but they recognize that they started calling restaurants, veterinary clinics and and others that are fairly energy intensive that they could ask for 1000s of dollars, and it would work because at the same time they would they would get into a rhythm where they would call these particular businesses during what they knew to be, for example, a restaurants busiest part of the day during the lunch hour, a veterinarians busiest type of day, right mid afternoon when they might have had dogs and cats under sedation, a drycleaners busiest time of the day, right around five o'clock in the you know, post the rush hour period when people are dropping in to pick up their dry cleaning, things like that. The scammers became very intelligent about, again on that social engineering aspect of focusing in on the times when their victims were most vulnerable. What we've seen what we've tended to see and I do think that these scammers are paying attention and noticing the impacts from utilities united against scams, in that over the course of the last few years, we have forged a partnership with an organization called Somos, which is the toll free administrator, the toll free number administrator for basically all toll free phone lines across North America. And, and what started happening was that we were getting there, you know, through this partnership, we were having the scammers when 1-800 numbers disconnected. And the scammer started to recognize this and so they have migrated toward more of a robo calling model now, where they call up and they say instead of asking a customer to call back, they say press this number to speak to you know, press one to speak to somebody about your about your delinquent bill, for example. And, and because they're using robo calls now, it's much more random again. And so we're seeing a shift back toward a higher purpose preponderance of residential customers. Now all along we have seen particularly with utility scam, that Spanish speaking populations and Spanish speaking businesses in particular have been more vulnerable. And I think there's two reasons for this: The first of which is that in my conversations with law enforcement in my direct conversations with these scammers, because I talk to them a lot when I'm calling up to validate that they're using fraud numbers, I call them up and try and play along and pretend I'm a victim. They tend to be they seem to be originating from Spanish speaking countries, most likely in Latin America, and law enforcement has corroborated that. And sometimes when I call them up, they're actually answering the line in Spanish, meaning that they are targeting Spanish businesses in particular, at that particular time, and they seem to be much more fluent in Spanish than they are in English at times as well. So and so the reason that we think that these, this customer group is more vulnerable is because there is a, there's a natural language barrier between the routine communications that they would receive from utility versus the communications that they're receiving from these scammers. And therefore, that might cut through some of the awkwardness that a that a native English speaker might pick up on if they were being contacted by somebody who isn't an eight native English speaker, originally versus being a native Spanish speaker. And the second two is that there just seems to be a little bit of less of a reflex of distrust amongst, amongst Spanish speaking businesses and Spanish speaking community and a little bit of a greater trust in official communications, or official sounding communications rather than a reflex to immediately distrust something that is, hits them out of the blue. And so we have seen a disproportionate number of Spanish speaking businesses being targeted and showing up on our victims list.
Dan Seguin 19:00
So in general, Jared, is there anything customers can do to pro actively guard themselves or their loved ones against scams?
Jared Lawrence 19:10
Great question. So I am a big fan of these anti robo call services such as no Robo, it's the one that we use in our house. I'm not a paid spokesman for no robo. But I do actually I have through the scammer come to know the founder and president of No Robo. And, and so that, and from the car registries that he shared with us, we are seeing that they're doing a good job of blocking a lot of these scam calls that are coming from, they're coming from these criminals. So I recommend that because that'll just reduce the likelihood that households or businesses that these calls are making it through the filters in the first place. The second thing is really just to know the signs so you know the basics signs are that a utility. The first communication you get from a utility about a potential delinquent bill or a problem with a payment is not going to be 30 minutes before you're disconnected. And a true utility representative is not going to insist on one particular type of payment, they're not going to make you drive down the street to a local retail outlet, get a specific thing tell you not to talk to the clerk and then force you to come back and make that payment quickly. And if you express any doubts at all about the legitimacy of the call, a legitimate utility representative will be more than happy to have you contact the utility directly using the published number, the public contact channels on your actual bill versus what they give you. Whereas a scammer is going to resist all of those because they know once you do that the gig is up. So that's really those are the key there, you want to want to reduce your vulnerability or your your exposure to scam communications in the first place. And then if they do get through, just be highly educated on the signs.
Dan Seguin 21:12
Okay, great segue to this next important question. What are some ways to identify a utility scammer over the phone? Maybe via text message? And the scariest of them all at your door? What are the red flags to look out for and the best way to deal with them?
Jared Lawrence 21:36
So again, I did I think that the number one thing to keep in mind is that it is very rare that you will get an urgent communication from your utility, about a billing problem. That's it with disconnection being imminent, out of the blue, within the next 45 minutes, that that will be the first communication. So a utility scammer typically is is somebody who contacts you with a sense of urgency, and there's a lot of pressure built into that communication, they will then resist, they will try and give you talk you out of seeking independent verification of identity. So whether it's a call that you get, if you say well Do you mind if I just hang up and call the number back on your official website just to validate this, a scammer will try and talk you out of that they'll say something like the drivers already on his way. Or if it's even worse, if they're at your door. And you and you open the door and you are not expecting them, a utility representative will be more than happy to allow you to take the time to call the Customer Care Center to to validate their legitimacy. Whereas a criminal will try and convince you that something is very urgent and you don't have the time to do so. Those are some of the some of the most obvious signs of a criminal who's trying to pressure you into taking action before you have time to think and get the facts straight. The other thing to keep in mind, too, is and we've seen that we saw this from the very beginning when going back to that first customer care app or raising that concern because she felt that she was relaying the customers felt that their that their information had been compromised when in fact it wasn't just because a a somebody posing as utility rep seems to have your info, it does not make them legitimate. Unfortunately, most information about us as individuals as consumers is available out there on the web. That's just one of the sad facts about about, about modern life. Additionally, though, these scammers are are brilliant social engineers, and they're very good at making you think that they have legitimate information. So even if they a scammer calls up and they quote something that sounds like your legitimate balance, don't trust them. In fact, one of the one of the early cases that got that we researched that first month when we when we deployed that SWAT team I was talking about that really convinced me of the nature of this problem was we had one particular customer who had reported that the scammer had their balance their actual balance. And we looked at the account. And sure enough, the the information that the customer had reported to us did align with what their most recent bill was. And so we talked to the customer and we said well tell us how the conversation went. And they started to think about it. And what they what they finally recalled was that the scammer called them up and said there was a problem with your last payment your payment did not go through the the victim and said well wait a minute. Let me go I happen to be on my online banking system right now. Let me look right here. And I see my payment for $271.30 or whatever it was. It went through on October, October 4 or whatever it was. And then the scammer says no, I see your payment for 200 $71.30 it actually got rejected the next day, October 5 by your bank. And so now the person who was caught off guard by this call in the first place is thinking, Oh, this person's must be legitimate because he has a system right there and my payment is in it. And he knows all about my transaction? Well, no, you told them, you know, they tricked you into giving them that information. And so that's the other key is to never ever volunteer account information or personal information. If they, if somebody calls you up out of the blue, and they are legitimate, they will understand if you don't want to volunteer information, they will invite give you the opportunity to call back their official customer care line. But if if somebody calls you have a blue and starts asking for information about you, that is another clear sign that scam is is likely on, you're likely the victim of a scam.
Dan Seguin 25:51
Okay, worst case scenario. Now, let's say I'm a customer who fell victim to a scam, losing money and possibly personal information in process. What are my options? Is there anyone or anywhere specific that customers can turn to for help?
Jared Lawrence 26:12
There's some good news, but a lot of not good news to share on that front Dan. So the first thing I would recommend is if you have fallen victim, and if you have made a payment using any sort of you know, prepaid card or electronic payment channel, immediately call the fraud line associated with the payment method that you use to do it quickly. The reason is that, and I'm speaking about the prepaid cards in particular, the way these scammers work is that they're they're targeting multiple victims, you know, across the country at any given one time across the continent at any one time. And what they do is they they call you up, they trick you into making that payment. And, and basically in doing that they transfer your money from the card number you provide to a destination card that they're using to collect and use in quotes "launder" the funds. And then every few minutes, they sweep the money off of those cards. So there is typically a small window, where if the scammers have not liquidated those funds into the ether, that if you happen to call back, you might be able to get your money back. But you've got to move quickly because a lot of these payment channels that they use are attractive to scammers, particularly because they're non reversible. And, and so your timing has to be has to be very quick and very spot on with this. So that's that's the first thing to do. The second thing to do is to file a police report. Now, sadly, because these these criminals are typically perpetrating their crimes from offshore, they are not going to be reachable with local law enforcement. But nonetheless, it's important that you file a police report so that it enters the law enforcement database, it helps the various folks in law enforcement at the national level who are trying to create, you know, enough of a body of evidence to investigate these cases investigate these syndicates that are running these scams. And, and I'll also to mention that, for example, in the United Way to one one service here in North Carolina, and there are other organizations, they actually have resources that are available for victims of cybercrime and other frauds. So I would reach out to your local community assistance agency, if you have suffered any financial hardship as a result of being targeted, to determine what resources they have. I'm not aware of any that can restore the funds that you've lost, but they can maybe help you cope with any financial hardship that you're suffering in the near term as a result of being targeted. And then finally, you know, report the attempt to your utility because utility united against scams. We use this information to refine our strategies. We use this information for our engagement with our telecom partners, our engagement with law enforcement and government officials to him to support law enforcement efforts and to try and better shape public policy to protect customers against against these types of scams.
Dan Seguin 29:20
Now, maybe we can look at prevention. What are utility companies and police forces doing to help deter and fight against scammers? Can you tell us any success stories of scammers being deterred or better yet caught?
Jared Lawrence 29:37
Okay, well, I can actually share with you a couple of instances. These weren't directly related to the utility imposter scam. But the larger is the Canadian revenue associations that when CRA stands for Yes. So larger CRA scams, we celebrated when we read articles back in the fall of 2018, and again in 2019, where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police executed successful stings of scam call centers, basically running those texts, those tech scams against Canadian citizens. And in those timeframes. In one case, I believe they arrested 32 Indian nationals who were executing these scams out of a fraudulent call center. And another one, it was 28 criminals who were apprehended in those busts. And really the key there is again, you know, just countless reports of victims, each one a small victim of crime just building up to this very large case. There was also a recent case, in the US with the Internal Revenue Service scam, where I believe that the individual was arrested back in 2017 or 2018, but he was just convicted back in November of 2020, the ringleader, again another Indian call center operation that was running this IRS scam. And the ringleader there was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $9 million. So there are there are people in law enforcement at the national level, both in Canada and the US, who are who are paying attention and are specifically focusing on these, you know, very lucrative scams, these very lucrative criminal operations and building cases and seeking international partnerships to bust these operations. I think that those two are an example of of operations that were that were claiming hundreds of millions, if not more, dollars in ill gotten gains. And so they're probably slightly bigger fish in these utility scans. I don't I think these utility scammers are probably collecting millions of dollars a year but not hundreds of billions of dollars a year which is why these other tax related scams are gaining or gaining more attention.
Dan Seguin 32:16
Okay, thanks for sharing. Maybe Jared, tell us what is at the heart or lack thereof, of a scammers intention? What are some of the behaviors that are evidence of this?
Jared Lawrence 32:32
So, you know, one of the things that we have spent a lot of time understanding is what is this is utility imposter scammers M.O., Are they spending a lot of time researching their victims to create a really, you know, compelling story that increases their hit rate, or are they really they're going for high volume, low yield, but making their money off of volume. And it's really the latter. And so what I noticed very quickly, in the various countless times that I've called these fraud numbers to validate the phone numbers to get them shut down, frankly, is that the scammers very quickly try to ascertain whether you are a likely victim. So if you want to talk with them about anything about address change, sometimes I make up that I'm calling about an outage. They will immediately try and turn it into a conversation about an outstanding debt that would that is supposedly going to trigger a disconnection. And if you don't, signal any sort of gullibility toward it at that particular time, they're going to end the call really quickly. They'll try and do it in a way that makes it seem polite enough that you'll still walk away from that thinking that it was legitimate utility interaction. But in reality, you once you step back, you realize they didn't give me any customer service at all. They were they were just trying to figure out if I was, if I was likely mark for them or not. That's the biggest one. The second biggest one is that, you know, we, our customer care agents go through countless hours of training in order to how to maintain professionalism, how to be attentive to customers to listen to their needs. The scammers, they get frustrated really quickly and and if you attempt to call them out, they will very quickly turn on you and say some things that are very rude things that can't even be repeated on podcast. So that is another obvious giveaway is that if the if the person you're talking to starts to become rude, aggressive, or exerts pressure in any way, they're not utility representative.
Dan Seguin 34:44
Okay. Now, in contrast, tell us what's at the heart of any utility as they engage with customers. How can customers use these contracting intentions as a litmus test?
Jared Lawrence 34:58
So recognizing that these scammers might listen to this podcast, I've always a little bit careful to give away all of the strategies I use to validate that when I'm calling them up that they're indeed scammers. However, the obvious signs of a trained utility rep are number one, they're going to be attentive to your needs. Number two, they are not going to try and pressure you in anything, because our goal is to make sure that you are a happy customer that you're getting the service that you need. And if you happen to be facing financial hardship or difficulty paying, we're not going to threaten you with this connection, we're going to offer up payment arrangements, ways to structure your utility debt so that you can maintain service with us, the last thing that a utility professional has to do is to see your account be disconnected for non payment, our goal is to try and work with you as much as we can to keep you engaged in to work within your means with deferred payment arrangements and things like that. So if they if the person on the line is not really working with you, then that is a and they had called you first and that is you know, a pretty obvious sign right there that they're not a not a legitimate utility representative. Secondly, also, as I mentioned before, a scammer is not going to want want to spend any time talking with you about anything other than you are making a payment to them quickly. So if you have questions about say value added products and services, or if you, you know, are having service, you had a service disruption due to a storm or something like that. You can always ask a question about that and see how they handle it. And if they handle it with knowledge, and they actually are able to are showing a willingness to take the time to understand your issue, then that's a more than likely a legitimate utility. Utility representative. If, however, they constantly bring it back to your outstanding your fictitious outstanding debt, then you know, you're dealing with a scammer.
Dan Seguin 36:59
Finally, Jared, what does success look like for utilities united against scams? What is your hope for the next 5 or 10 years?
Jared Lawrence 37:12
So, you know, I read my originally instead of this Dan kind of changes I thought about a little bit more, especially as we have our five year anniversary of utility united against scams coming up just in just next week, actually. And, you know, I was thinking the knee jerk reaction reaction would be to say, Well, I'd like I'd like us to basically put these scammers out of business so that we don't, so we can disband so that there's no need for utilities united against scams. I think that that is a you know, a little bit too rosy of course, I think that I do like to make these utility imposter scams go away. And then just maintain kind of maintain the collaborative, but maintain it in such a way where we're just touching base sharing for information about anything that might be looking suspicious in our markets, and making sure that we are keeping scam activity at a minimum and keeping law enforcement policymakers fully engaged so that scams don't flare back up to the problem that they are right now. So my goal really is to is to achieve that combination of policy, solutions, as well as sheer operational tactics with partners in telecom and the prepaid card space in the other financial mechanism that the scammers use to shut down the loopholes so that this utility imposter scam goes away. And then utilities united against scams is a organization that just meets periodically to keep tabs on the market and make sure that things aren't flaring up again.
Dan Seguin 38:51
Okay. This is it. Jared, are you ready to close us off with some rapid fire questions?
Jared Lawrence 38:59
Sure. Hit me, Dan.
Dan Seguin 39:01
Let me start with this first one. What is your favorite word?
Jared Lawrence 39:06
My favorite word this year is "yes". And I say that is because we did we accomplish so many things on the fly, responding to the pandemic, and the important things that we as utilities had to do to help take care of our communities last year, that previously the answer would have been either No, or it's going to take us a long time to figure that out. So I feel like I and the rest of the industry have been opened up to the power of possibility and so this is the year of of answering all those possibilities with Yes.
Dan Seguin 39:44
Great answer. What is the one thing you can't live without?
Jared Lawrence 39:50
My morning workout.
Dan Seguin 39:51
Moving on. What habit or hobby Have you picked up during shelter in place?
Jared Lawrence 39:58
I started making mead. It is, I find it delicious. I'm not sure that those of my family or my wife have the same opinion. But I would.
Dan Seguin 40:11
Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Jared Lawrence 40:16
The ability to sleep through the night without waking up for a variety of reasons.
Dan Seguin 40:21
If you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?
Jared Lawrence 40:27
I would tell him not to be so shy I was, I was fairly shy. In my pre professional life, and even the early years of being in the professional world, and I've come to learn that you missed out on a lot by being shy.
Dan Seguin 40:43
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Jared Lawrence 40:51
Wow. So there are so many interesting things going on. But I think what is most interesting to me, and the reason why I'm excited to be in this industry for at least another 15 years before I'm ready to retire, is that societies are have made it one of their central goals to achieve carbon neutrality. And utilities are at the center of that not only in terms of hitting our goals within our companies, but being the ones best positioned to offer solutions to help major industries that are our customers help achieve their carbon neutral goals. And so I think the amount of opportunity and the number of interesting challenges that we face in the utility industry on that front is very exciting to me, and one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to continue to be utility leader.
Dan Seguin 41:44
So true, and well said, Jared. Okay, well, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I really hope you had a lot of fun.
Jared Lawrence 41:58
I did. This was fantastic. Dan, I hope you can tell I am really passionate about fighting scammers, fighting criminals who take advantage of utility customers and so I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic.
Dan Seguin 42:13
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes. Make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast blog. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
Young people offer incredible opportunities for change with their new ideas and verve. However, part of the challenge for young people around the world is finding a platform from which their voice can be heard and valued. Thankfully, when it comes to the energy sector, climate change, and what's in store for the future, an organization by the name of Student Energy seeks to bridge that gap. Here with us to discuss the keys to unlocking a sustainable energy future and how we can work together with today's youth to get there is Shakti Ramkumar, Director of Communications & Policy at Student Energy.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast, youth climate change, clean energy, the future. These are all pretty loaded topics. But believe it or not, we're here to discuss all of these today, and how they're connected. With every new generation that comes of age, there's a fresh perspective introduced to the table. Young people offer incredible opportunities for change with their new ideas, and verve. However, part of the challenge for young people around the world is finding a platform from which their voice can be heard and valued. Without well established networks and resources, young people can easily be stifled or forgotten. Thankfully, when it comes to the energy sector, climate change, and what's in store for the future, an organization by the name of Student Energy seeks to bridge that gap. Student energy is a Global Youth led nonprofit organization that strives to empower young people to accelerate their sustainable energy transition. They connect young people to global changemakers and provide them access to decision making spaces, so that they have opportunities to play a part in their energy future. They started with three driven students who, in 2009, set out to organize the first international student energy summit. Since then, it has expanded into a global organization, with programs engaging over 50,000 students from over 120 countries, alumni are going on to develop and implement renewable energy technologies, advise the United Nations and advocate for a clean energy future while working with some of the largest energy companies. So here's today's big question. What are the keys to unlocking a sustainable energy future? And how can we work together with today's youth to get there? So joining me on today's program is Shakti Ramkumar, Director of Communications and policy. Shakti oversees a strategy and operations of the organization as it continues to build the movement of students across the world committed to a sustainable energy future. Shakti, thanks for joining us today. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, your background, and what led you to becoming the Director of Communications and policy for Student Energy.
Shakti Ramkumar 03:47
Hi, Dan, thank you for having me today. So I'm currently the Director of Communications and policy at Student Energy, and it was a bit of a winding path for me to get here. I've been deeply concerned about climate change since I was really young. My very first science fair project when I was in third grade was actually on public transportation, and how it could reduce emissions for my city if we replaced a lot of car traffic with rapid transit like sky trains and buses. And after that, I did a whole bunch of projects on ecological footprint on using phase change materials to heat homes. And this initial experience of trying to find solutions and explore solutions is what led me to Student Energy. When I was in university at UBC, I was actually a participant in one of student energies programs called Generation energy, where I hosted a dialogue focused on what you'd want to see for the future of BC. And the reason I want to bring this project up is all of the youth champions from across Canada gathered in Winnipeg to put together a vision for Canada's energy future. And we were able to come up with this in about half a day. We were able to work through our differences and figure out the common values that we share. And what we want to see in Canada in about half a day, and that really demonstrated that young people just have a lot in common regardless of where they're from, and what situations they're living in. So that initial experience with Student Energy as a participant is what started my journey here.
Dan Seguin 05:17
Are you able to unpack for me? What's a sustainable energy future for us? And why is it so important that we work towards it? And what might it look like once we've achieved it?
Shakti Ramkumar 05:31
A sustainable energy future, for me is one where our global energy system is designed to support people and communities to thrive. And doing that through clean, affordable and reliable energy. To limit global heating to 1.5 degrees, which we know is necessary for the safety and survival of so many people and ecosystems, we will have to shift away from fossil fuels and drastically reduce our carbon emissions within the next really critical few years. And what would a sustainable energy future look like once we've achieved it? For that, I really want to emphasize that part about energy being a means for people and communities to thrive. Because I think sometimes there's a tendency to say, well, this renewable energy technology isn't capable of meeting this high level of energy demand. So we can't possibly shift away from the current system. And take, for example, one of the arguments that we often hear at Student Energy is, well, we couldn't possibly electrify every single car and truck on the road. Because we'll need a lot of minerals, it's going to cost a lot, it will have so many adverse impacts. And that's where we have to take a step back. And remember, the goal is not to replace every single car and truck on the road with a different cleaner version, the goal is mobility for people to get to where they need to go to meet their basic needs, and just enjoy their lives. And if we keep that end goal in mind, we won't have to reduce the energy transition to just swapping out one energy source for another. But really zeroing in on what makes a community livable and supports people to thrive and building an energy system around that. And we can do that with a combination of things from walkable communities, lifestyle shifts to reducing energy demand, ensuring people's basic needs are met through public transit, and then where we need them the odd electric car. So my point there is that a sustainable energy future is really not just about swapping energy, one energy source for another, but focusing on the end goal, which is we want a good standard of life for everyone. Now, this year,
Dan Seguin 07:32
I see that Student Energy launched a very unique research project designed for millennials to share their perspective on the energy transition. Student energy has named it the Global Youth Energy Outlook, the first project of its kind made by youth for youth around the world. What was the inspiration behind the development of this project?
Shakti Ramkumar 08:00
So yes, the Global Youth Energy Outlook is a report that we're developing. And it's completely led by young people for young people. And we're gathering perspectives from 1000s, 10s of 1000s of youth from all over the world on what they want to see for the energy future of their region. And the first phase of that research is a 10 minute questionnaire that but that we're inviting all young people who are between 18 to 30, to take, and there are a few things that inspired us to create this report. And to start developing it. The main reason is that we will be the ones building the infrastructure, implementing the policy changes, changing our communities, and as we work to address the climate crisis, and therefore we should be considered important stakeholders in that process. And for a long time, young people were either left entirely out of the energy sector or tokenized, without being given a real voice, and student energy was founded to create to change both of those things. And now we're doing that on a global scale with the Global Youth Energy Outlook. Another reason we were inspired to create this report is to show that young people are not a monolith. The outlook is led by 12 young regional coordinators in 10 regions around the world. And they're actively building that works in their own communities that kind of highlight the unique energy challenges that face each region, and to demonstrate that young people are engaging on that community level, and solving the kind of nuanced complex energy issues in their region and that we can't be treated at a global monolith.
Dan Seguin 09:33
And now, what are the key issues addressed in this questionnaire? How did Student Energy narrowed down the questions to ask what do you hope to achieve with the data collected from the Global Youth outlook?
Shakti Ramkumar 09:51
So the questionnaire covers quite a wide range of topics. We the big question we're asking is what young people want the energy mix in their region to look like in 2030. And we're also asking who young people believe is most responsible for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, whether they believe their governments are investing enough and fighting climate change. And we're also asking which policy options but young people prioritize over others in order to achieve net zero emissions. And these are really important questions for both young people to know how other youth around the world see the future of energy in their region, and also for decision makers in the energy industry to see where their future voters, consumers and workers are heading. So these are the big areas that we're covering in the questionnaire. And narrowing down the questions to ask was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I think we started with 160 questions and realized well, no one's gonna take the survey, he asked 160 questions. So we cut it down to about 40. And then cut it down to even further to just 10 questions covering the most important things with the option for people to take the 40 question one if they if they're particularly interested. So now it just takes 10 minutes, covers the the most important pressing questions that we had from our very long version. And we are quite excited about what this report could mean and what impact it could have once it's completed. For young people, we want this to be a powerful data backed tool that they can use to lobby their city governments, their state governments, their federal governments, the energy companies in their region to take action showing that here's what 1000s of young people around the world, your most important constituents and stakeholders want to see for the future of energy. And here's what what we want to do to help make the future happen. So we hope it's an advocacy tool for young people. And on the flip side, we also think it will provide some really important insights for people in government, people in the energy industry. And we've already heard from a number of our partners that they really need this kind of report in their own decision making to have kind of numbers and evidence behind what young people want to see. And using that to push their own climate action plans forward. So we hope it'll be a tool on both fronts for both young people and for decision makers to understand how best to work together.
Dan Seguin 12:19
By the way, folks, there will be a copy of the questionnaire within the show notes. Okay. Why is it so important that millennial voices on energy and sustainability be heard? What do you think are the most important distinguishing beliefs and/or values of this generation compared to other generations? And finally, what can older generations like mine be doing to better support this group?
Shakti Ramkumar 12:55
I think there are two main things that we have recognized are distinct about young people's values when it comes to the energy transition that kind of makes this era of the environment and climate movement a little bit different than the previous era. One is the timeline in which young people expect action. We're seeing commitments now, finally, from companies and governments about aiming for net zero emissions by 2050. And young people who are climate activists are saying, Okay, that's good, but we need to see action right now. And that's why our Global Youth Energy Outlook actually works on a timeline leading up to 2030, not 2050. As we will have to take drastic climate action by then if we want to act in accordance with climate science. So as the years pass, and our global climate commitments are still not strong enough to meet the 1.5 degree target that we've set as a collective the sense of urgency among young people, I think, is something that is really distinct. The second big value that we've seen from young people is that we are not siloed in our thinking, and that young people won't consider it a success. If we successfully decarbonize our energy system. The harms that the current energy system has inflicted on people and communities, and haven't made sure that the benefits of the clean energy transition are equitably distributed. So an emphasis on seeing energy as a mechanism through which we can build a more just and equitable society is something that is a really strong value for young people that I think is something new to the energy transition. And on the question of what can older generations do, at Student Energy, we really value intergenerational collaboration. We have a lot to learn from people who have set up the energy system as it is now about the complexities and the nuances of producing distributing supplying energy, so we really value intergenerational collaboration. And there's three main things that I think older generations can do, particularly those with resources. power to make decisions. One very simple invest in young people. That can look like financially supporting youth led organizations, youth led projects, or investing time through mentorship and guidance. Two is understand the value of youth, a lot of work organizations, we want them to really think, are we meaningfully engaging with young people? What can we do to meaningfully and equitably engage with young people, not just on a tokenistic basis, but on a really kind of equal relationship. And this is something Student Energy often works with organizations to help them figure out especially if they're navigating youth engagement for the very first time. And the third thing I would say is to create space for young people, older generations who have access to a large platform, or an influential position, think actively about how you can make space for young people are using that privilege. Whether this looks like asking an event organizer why there are no young people on the panel and recommending some young people join that panel, whether it looks like bringing up in a meeting, why we're not funding youth led organizations, or taking into consideration the youth voice when making that next strategy, that next plan. These are some tangible ways that older generations can really support young people.
Dan Seguin 16:20
I read that you served as the director of common energy at the University of British Columbia, one of the university's largest student sustainability organization. Can you tell us about that experience? I'm curious, what did you work on? What did you learn? And did anything surprise you?
Shakti Ramkumar 16:43
So at Common energy, our goal was to build community first and foremost, and invite people into the climate movement, many of them for the very first time as they entered university, and to help people understand the links between themselves as an individual and the changes they can contribute to as a collective. So we were all about tangible action. We recognized early on that one of the best ways to get people involved was to do something real physical and hands on. So we conducted waste audits on campus, we hosted student friendly plant based cooking workshops, things you can do in your dorm, we launched a reusable mug share program at our campus cafe. And while doing these hands on projects, we also held workshops on climate justice, on food justice, on transforming our cities. And these would regularly draw a packed crowd, because I think there's a real desire from young people to see what they can do to contribute to larger systems change. So we kind of brought both perspectives like here's what you can do on a day to day basis, using your time and your skills and your expertise. And here are the bigger issues that we need to always keep in mind on justice and equity that we're collectively working towards. So that was my big goal as director of common energy. I learned a lot during this time. And the most important thing, I think, is that collaboration and sustaining a movement is not easy, and it actually takes work. It takes intention and consistency. And isn't just something to say you're going to do and then it just happens. While I was co director of climate energy, I also collaborated with all the other climate and sustainability related groups on campus. And together, we worked to launch the UBC climate hub, which is now a fully fledged student driven initiative at UBC entering its third year. And what made us successful at the time was, yes, we were very concerned and passionate about climate action. But we also took meeting minutes, we helped each other stay accountable. We encouraged people to rest when they were burnt out. We chased every staff and professor who seemed even remotely likely to support us, we built a network of supporters and engaged every single day to working towards this vision. And I think these day to day things are what will make the climate movement successful. So a lot of people might see, you know, big climate strikes on TV or big speeches. But it takes a lot of coordination behind the scenes to to make that an impactful experience. And it takes a lot of just hard work and working with people's personalities and working in big groups and making sure everyone feels supported. And that those minute details I think are what I took away most from my experience at UBC.
Dan Seguin 19:27
Well done, Shakti, based on your learnings from working with UBC and student energy. What do you think are the most important energy transition steps to be taken now by governments, businesses, and individuals in order to have a significant impact by 2030 and by 2050?
Shakti Ramkumar 19:51
I think number one has to be to actually set emissions reductions targets that meet the scale of the climate crisis. All countries are still behind when it comes to their nationally determined contributions for the Paris Agreement. And I think the most important action now would be to be honest about the magnitude of the climate crisis and not hide behind far off targets, while leaving it hazy how exactly we're going to get there. So recognizing the carbon budget that we have, and setting real targets that will get us to our 1.5 degree target, I think it's the first step. The second one is, of course, our mission at student energy is to get people to recognize the importance of young people and to invest in youth, young people will be the ones to work in the energy system of the future. And right now, many renewable energy companies and even other energy companies that are trying to transition to clean energy, are looking at a major skills shortage. So if they want innovative ideas, fresh voices, building a dynamic workforce of the future, we need to bring in more young people. And we need to bring in young people who have historically been excluded from the energy space. This includes women, young people of color, indigenous youth youth from the global south, and ensure that whatever energy system we're building is actively mentoring and training young people to be a part of it. And this is a major gap that we're seeing in both renewable energy companies, and just the energy sector overall.
Dan Seguin 21:26
Now, I'm looking forward to hearing how you'll be tackling this next question. What do you think, are the greatest challenges ahead for sustainable energy transition? What will be essential to overcome them? What are the consequences if we don't?
Shakti Ramkumar 21:49
This is a great question. I mean, I've talked a lot about how we're failing to invest in young people. And I do think that's one of the greatest challenges. And the consequence, of course, is that we will not have people to to transform the energy system if we're not investing in training up young people. But another challenge in for the sustainable energy transition that's always on my mind is just the fact that a lot of the solutions we need do exist, they already exist. For example, improving energy efficiency could enable I think, 40% of the emissions reductions, we need to meet our climate goals without new technology. But despite that global improvements in energy efficiency have been declining. They're extremely slow, just 1.2% a year. And even as of last year, over 2.6 billion people around the world don't have access to clean cooking facilities. And this number has shifted so slowly over the past 20 years, and these kinds of things make it clear that many of the technologies and solutions we do need already do exist. And what we need is for people and companies and governments to broaden their definition of what innovation means, not just focus on novelty on emerging technologies, but to actually create incentives to implement and scale the solutions that we know that they work to, to accelerate the energy transition. So that's a big challenge that I see. A final challenge is not seeing the importance of nature and land in the energy system. And kind of seeing that as a separate environmental issue, which I think is sometimes the case in the energy sector. And I think this will have major consequences. First of all, we can't meet our climate goals, if we're not thinking about the natural ecosystems that we depend on about our unsustainable food system. If we're not supporting indigenous leaders who are on the front line of climate action, whether that is fighting against extractive industries, deforestation and land grabs, if we don't see that as part of the energy transition, there's no way we'll successfully meet our climate goals. And I think this is the responsibility of everyone working on an energy to also think about nature and land and in the work that they do.
Dan Seguin 24:05
Now Shakti, what makes you tick? How has your own lifestyle changed as a result of your studies and work on achieving sustainable energy? Was there a turning point for you? And how has the goal of a sustainable energy future challenged you personally?
Shakti Ramkumar 24:27
Since I was young, my parents have always encouraged me to think about fairness. And so I do take my own lifestyle choices pretty seriously as a type of climate action, especially living here in Canada. I think there's sometimes tends to be some binary thinking about whether we should focus on individual action or whether we should fight for systems change. And to me, those have always seemed like parts of the same whole. To me making the choices that are within my reach, whether that's going vegan, not buying too many things that I don't need. These are things that align with my values and something I've taken on as a result of my work. And they also fuel my commitment to systems change work. And I think the choices we make as individuals, as families of households, they lay the foundations for the kind of society that we're working to build as a collective. So I do try to think about, okay, if the policies and changes that I'm fighting for through my work become a reality, how would that trickle down to me as an individual? How would that change my life, and then I just try to do some of those things already, while we're still fighting for them. And what makes me tick, honestly, it's just community and having friends who are doing this together, I think the magnitude of the climate crisis and the barriers we face to climate action are so overwhelming, and honestly, sometimes really discouraging that we have to fight so hard to shift the needle so little, so slowly. So it's really necessary to find some joy within all of this and find people who you can laugh with. And this is why, you know, climate memes are a really big thing on the internet, because we need this laughter and these moments of joy to keep this movement going.
Dan Seguin 26:09
What do you think, is the most important thing that today's youth should hear right now, as it relates to sustainable energy? What call to action would you give them
Shakti Ramkumar 26:24
so for young people who are passionate about climate action, my message is to really consider the role that you can have in changing the energy system and in shaping the energy future, energy has often been a space that seems really inaccessible to a lot of young people. You know, there's the sense that you need an engineering degree, you need connections, you need a lot of money, to work in energy. And groups, like student energy are actively trying to change that. To help all youth understand that no matter what background, you're from, what career you're trying to have, understanding the complexities of the energy system, and seeing yourselves as part of the energy transition, are just a really important part of the future that we're all working towards. And there's also a lot of exciting opportunities on the horizon, in energy, and in all kinds of fields. So my message to young people is really kind of engage with energy and consider it as a possibility if you if you've never thought about it, to consider as a possibility. And to not shy away from the hard questions on energy. So what will it take to produce enough clean energy to meet the world's needs? What do we need to do to make sure everyone has access to energy, which utilities and regulators and power companies need to step up their game on climate action? What infrastructure needs to be upgraded? getting into the details and considering energy as a space for major systems change as well as a fulfilling career? I would say as my main call to action on the long term for young people, and student energy is here to make that happen for you. And on the immediate scale, I would say, you know, check out our Global Youth Energy Outlook questionnaire, because we really want to hear from young people from all backgrounds. And this is how we'll make kind of global policy change in the energy system.
Dan Seguin 28:17
Okay, now for the fun part. Shakti. Are you ready to close us off with our rapid fire questions?
Shakti Ramkumar 28:25
Yes, I sure am.
Dan Seguin 28:27
What is your favorite word?
Shakti Ramkumar 28:30
Since it's spring: metamorphosis.
Dan Seguin 28:34
What is one thing you can't live without?
Shakti Ramkumar 28:38
Oh, honestly, it's just time to be silly with friends.
Dan Seguin 28:42
What habit? Or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?
Shakti Ramkumar 28:48
This was unexpected for me, but painting.
Dan Seguin 28:52
Cool. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Shakti Ramkumar 28:59
I'm gonna cheat and say I would love to teleport. And wherever I land, I would like to speak the language that is spoken there.
Dan Seguin 29:05
Now moving on, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?
Shakti Ramkumar 29:12
I would say, go to more parties, because soon you'll have to sit in your bedroom for a whole year and not hang out with people.
Dan Seguin 29:20
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Shakti Ramkumar 29:26
I mean, there's a lot going on. But I'm really excited about the possibilities around distributed energy.
Dan Seguin 29:31
Well, Shakti we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I truly hope you enjoyed this interview. And I hope you had a lot of fun.
Shakti Ramkumar 29:41
Definitely. I had a great time.
Dan Seguin 29:44
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes. Make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
Let’s talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees. Did you know that across North America, pollinators are in a steep decline. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities are ideally suited to restore these environments. Here with us to discuss Hydro Ottawa’s latest partner project to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario is Tracey Etwell from Canadian Wildlife Federation & Meaghan McDonald from Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. On today's show, we're going to talk about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees - literally. Did you know that across North America, the populations of monarch butterflies, bees and other pollinators are in a steep decline due to herbicides, pesticides, climate change, and a reduction in natural pollinator habitats. Pollinators are responsible for a third of the world's food supply, so they are extremely vital to our existence. In Canada, there are more than 1000 species of pollinating animals that are responsible for billions of dollars worth of Canadian farm produce, flowers, and ecosystems that rely on pollination. In short, without pollinators, food supply would suffer drastically. It may seem like an unlikely union, but utilities like Hydro Ottawa are ideally suited to restore these environments, thanks to a number of utility corridors and properties in their service territories, not to mention the kilometers of power lines, and right of ways along roadsides. Moreover, vegetation along utility corridors are compatible with these types of vegetation necessary to support pollinators. In 2019, Hydro Ottawa began civil construction of its largest ever municipal transformer station in the south end of Ottawa situated on 24 acres of land. Since the new transformer station requires only five acres of property, Hydro Ottawa partnered with the City of Ottawa, Rideau Valley Conservation Authority, and the Canadian Wildlife Federation to create one of the largest pollinator meadows of its kind in Eastern Ontario, adjacent to this future station. The agreement means that 15 acres will be dedicated to a pollinator meadow, which is scheduled for seeding in the spring of 2021 A four acre tree reforestation area was reforested in 2020, with 2750 trees, thanks to the Rideau River Conservation Authority. So here is today's big question. What goes into a successful pollinator meadow? And how can we as an industry, and as ordinary citizens help the movement by building more pollinator meadows? Maybe in our own backyards? I have two guests joining me today for this podcast. My first guest is Tracy Etwell, a restoration ecologist with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. Tracy supports the right of way program, which helps restore pollinator metals for monarch butterflies and other pollinators in Eastern Ontario. My second guest is Meaghan McDonald, Lake planning and shoreline stewardship coordinator for the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority. There are 36 conservation authorities in Ontario responsible for furthering the restoration, development and management of watershed and their natural resources across the province. Thank you both for joining me today. So, Tracy, let's start with the Canadian Wildlife Federation. What are pollinators? What important role do pollinators play? And what does pollinator habitat look like?
Tracy Etwell 04:37
Great question, Dan. So as a group, there are many species that are pollinators. And if people aren't aware, there's things like native bees, flies, moths, butterflies, beetles and even our hummingbirds are pollinators. But when we talk about our pollinator habitat in our project, we're really focusing on the insects such as our native bees, flies and butterflies. And pollinator habitat varies depending on each species, but all insect pollinators benefit from open meadows full of wildflowers and grasses. And these native flowers provide the pollen and the nectar and the vegetation in general for the species to hide nest and overwinter. And also some of these flowers are very specific hosts for butterflies and moths, where they require that specific plant for their lifecycle.
Dan Seguin 05:21
Now, this question is for both, do habitats vary depending on where they're located in the province and country? If so, what's unique about Eastern Ontario? Wondering, Meaghan, if you can expand on this? And then what about you, Tracy?
Meaghan McDonald 05:37
Yeah, sure. So obviously, our country is massive. So there's a big variety of habitats that mountains, prairies, plains, forests, wetlands, all sorts of things. I think what's kind of unique about Eastern Ontario, maybe in comparison to our southern counterpart there is that we do have still quite a lot of natural areas available to us. The development pressures out here are building just as they are in the southern region. But I think in Eastern Ontario, there's a really good opportunity to sort of preserve what we already have and protect the resources that we already have as that development occurs. So I think that's kind of a unique feature out here.
Tracy Etwell 06:18
So our focus on Eastern Ontario is based on two things. One is that the threatened monarch butterfly range in Canada is heavily focused in Ontario and Quebec. So obviously, we're overlapping that region. And secondly, our funder, which is the Ontario Trillium Foundation has sponsored our work in the Eastern Ontario region. There are also tons and tons of rights of way here which we define as roadways, transmission lines, and pipelines. And as Meaghan said, we do have habitat across Canada. And the management of this vegetation along rights of way is compatible with Meadow habitat, which benefits these pollinators. And we're hoping that rights of way meadow projects will catch on across Canada. And we're busy creating a national network of right of way managers to encourage meadow habitat restoration across the country.
Dan Seguin 07:03
Okay, Tracy, I know that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline in pollinators and their habitats. Based on your experience, what are those reasons? And is there one in particular, that's been identified as the most destructive force?
Tracy Etwell 07:21
Yeah, so you're correct. There are many forces that contribute to this. The biggest one is thought to be the loss of habitat, which is consistent with a lot of species. When land is developed, the habitat is lost. Also, these insects need large corridors of habitat to travel around. So when these pieces get disconnected, it's harder for these pollinators to find that habitat. Also, in Eastern Ontario, the invasive plant species wild parsnip, which means some people may be aware of is another threat. It's spread rapidly throughout the area and is out-competing or native wildflowers. It's hard to control in many places they spray and frequent mowing are the ways to control it. Then, so when it's then controlled, then those native species that would have been there are now removed. So we're hoping once wild parsnip can be under control, better meadow habitat restoration can support these populations.
Dan Seguin 08:16
Back to you. Meaghan, can you tell us about the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority and what types of stewardship projects you're involved with?
Meaghan McDonald 08:26
Or so in partnership with our foundation branch, the Rideau Valley Conservation Foundation, we offer a number of stewardship programs that are really aimed at largely private landowners, but also municipalities and public land owners as well. Our main one would really be our forestation and tree planting program. We plant about 200,000 trees just in the Rideau watershed alone, every year. We also have a shoreline naturalization program, which helps a lot of shoreline land owners create sort of a natural buffer along their waterways. We have a lot of lakes and rivers in our watershed that we're fortunate to have. So we like to help landowners protect what they have on their property. We also have a rural clean water grant program, which is aimed at helping farmers do clean water projects on their property. And then in addition to that, we also do some stream monitoring, wetland restoration, invasive species removal and garbage cleanups, especially in the city of Ottawa with our city's free launch program
Dan Seguin 09:33
With respect to pollinator meadows. Meaghan, what can you tell us about your organization's role? Do you bring your regional expertise about Eastern Ontario's environment and its native plants?
Meaghan McDonald 09:46
Yeah, so we don't have a huge focus on pollinators and our organization we've historically been a lot more focused on water quality protection projects, which is why it's so important for us to have partners like the Canadian Wildlife Federation to partner with on on projects like this. So we don't have a major role in the pollinator project realm. Where we do bring our regional expertise is more for tree planting, shoreline naturalization, so your trees and your shrubs and items like that through our stewardship programs. We also partner with our nursery suppliers, the Ferguson tree nursery, which is located down in Kemptville. And they've been working lately with us and a few other groups in the Ottawa Valley on expanding their product line away from just trees so that they also can be a source of native pollinator species as well in Eastern Ontario. Right now, it's really aimed at potted plants for landowners if they want to, you know, create a little habitat pollinator habitat in their own property. But they are looking at expanding that so that they can be a local source for native seed as well. It's very important that we kind of keep that local seed source in the area because when you're bringing in plants from different regions are sometimes not quite as adapted to our current climate conditions as, say, Southern Ontario or other parts of the country. So we're really the Canadian Wildlife Federation is kind of the expert on this project that we're working with and we're very happy to have their their expertise onboard.
Dan Seguin 11:34
You both are playing integral parts in the 15 acre pollinator meadows that hydro ottawa was building in the south end of the city. I understand it's one of the largest in Eastern Ontario. Tracy, why are utilities a key player in Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator recovery efforts.
Tracy Etwell 11:58
So CWF is very excited to be partnering with hydro, Ottawa and RVCA on this initiative, which is one of the largest projects as you mentioned. Utilities are a key player in our pollinator restoration efforts, and they maintain over 660,000 kilometers of transmission lines 1000s of generation stations across Canada, which has huge potential for pollinator habitat restoration, also their linear design are relatively easy for pollinators to find. Since utilities need to control the weedy species over the long term along these facilities. It provides a great place for the wildflowers and grasses to grow. And it provides a great opportunity for you utilities to demonstrate Environmental Leadership and provide the habitat. That's a win win for the utilities and the pollinators.
Dan Seguin 12:43
And now for you, Meaghan, what kind of follow up work does Rideau Valley Conservation Authority do for a project like Hydro's 15 acre pollinator Meadow?
Meaghan McDonald 12:56
Yeah, so for this project, we're actually already going to be on site for a related tree planting project. So it's kind of why we are involved in the in the pollinator side, because it does take a little bit of work to establish native pollinator seed, many of the native seeds, for example, they might take one, two, maybe more years to germinate, and really a few years before they really establish and take over. So it's really important that we manage that area for invasive species so that they don't take over. Or that an opportunistic species like Tracy mentioned, poisoned parsnip, for example, or Manitoban Maple seedlings that they don't move in. So this will be done really through annual to semi annual mowing of the site. So we waited till the end till the right time to sort of do a mow so that we can remove some of the unwanted species, allowing the native ones to really come up. And we'll probably also do a little bit of Spot Removal of the undesirable plants as they come up as well. And we'll do some monitoring as well plots throughout the meadow that I'll let us sort of measure how well the native plants are really coming along and at what rates which will be great because it's will be a great learning experience for us. Since we don't personally have a lot of experience. It'll just kind of be a great way to see what works and what doesn't and what goes into a project like this so that hopefully we can be involved with more in the future.
Dan Seguin 14:28
The Rideau Valley Conservation Authority has also planted 2750 trees on four acres at this site. Meaghan, is the reforestation connected to the meadow, or is it a separate but complementary initiative?
Meaghan McDonald 14:47
Yeah, I think it's kind of bolted is on the same site. The trees were planted last spring, and they kind of form a little bit of a barrier around the outside area of the pollinator garden. department started the pollinator meadow. So it's, it does create a nice barrier between the meadow and the adjacent highway and adjacent farm field. So it's going to create a nice of a windbreak. It'll also help with some of the salt spray that's coming off the highway. And these trees were really planted as part as a compensation for the station that's being built there. And we found that having the combination of the trees as the compensation and also the opportunity for the pollinator habitat was just such a great opportunity at this particular site. Just because we don't really want to get trees planted too close to the station, especially with the tornado that came through a few years ago. So it's nice to have those trees at a distance but also have that nice low growing, easy to maintain pollinator Meadow in the areas directly surrounding it. So it's a it's a nice combination there.
Dan Seguin 16:01
Now understanding that without pollinators Canada's food supply is threatened. Tracy, how is the Canadian Wildlife Federation building resources and support for these projects.
Tracy Etwell 16:14
So the Canadian Wildlife Federation is committed to supporting pollinators for both our diverse biodiversity and our food supply. As you mentioned, many of the nutritious plants we eat such as fruits and vegetables rely on insect pollination, and 90% of the world's flowering plants rely on insect pollination. So it's critical that as a global society, we support these insect pollinators. Now our project is focused on a variety of support such as technical expertise in building these meadows, increasing the native seed supply in Ontario, and providing case studies of the costs and benefits of restoring Meadow habitat. We work with interested managers to develop their respective projects. And we've also only recently formed the Canadian branch of rights of way within the US rights of way habitat working group to enhance our network so that we have more access to resources, case studies and best practices.
Dan Seguin 16:28
I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this next question, Tracy - road right of ways are a major push for Canadian Wildlife Federation's pollinator initiative. Why build them there?
Tracy Etwell 17:19
Yeah, so like transmission lines, road rights of way or another area of great potential for Habitat. If you think about the over 1 million kilometers of roads across Canada, that's a lot of space for pollinator habitat. There's also a lot of interest in reducing the mowing and the herbicide use that goes into maintaining roads. And by using native plants that can allow for that reduction in those two aspects. And it may even save municipalities maintenance costs by reducing these efforts. And also, it's a great opportunity to share the initiative with the public that are driving by and can see these beautiful displays.
Dan Seguin 17:56
Now for my last question - for both of you. How can landowners improve pollinator habitats on their properties? And what could citizens do to support this work? Or our pollinator friends in general? Meaghan, let's start with you and the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority.
Meaghan McDonald 18:17
So we always promote the use of native plants on properties for a number of reasons, they obviously have benefits to pollinators. But they also are often more low maintenance and typical ornamental plants. So we would encourage folks that that are gardening or are looking for something to plant on their property, then maybe consider some of our native plant species just because they do have that added benefit to the pollinators. And we're also of course, promote the use of native plants along natural areas like shorelines. In addition to sort of the, the, the wildflowers and the meadow species that we're using in this project, there's lots of native trees and shrubs as well that they can consider that are beneficial to pollinators. I was just gonna say and then supporting your local native nurseries, there's a few in the Ottawa Valley that people can consider. And sometimes it just takes a little bit more searching and then digging to find those native native plants for your garden, but they're out there. And if we all support our local native nurseries, then they'll be able to continue supplying those plants for us.
Dan Seguin 19:40
And now Tracy, what about from a Canadian Wildlife Federation perspective?
Tracy Etwell 19:45
Right, so we also support backyard gardens planting native plants. That's a great start. We offer many webinars and guides online to help people get into this mode of planting and some other things that people can do that they might not have considered it is leaving leaves on your lawn and garden in the fall. Many of these pollinators actually over winter. And they'll use that that habitat to protect themselves from the winter conditions. Lastly, if you can resist mowing those dandelions until more spring flowers bloom, that's one of the first floor resources that are available for pollinators. And the spring is actually one of the hardest seasons for them to get going, because there's very little for them to feed on and they're very hungry, obviously. So something else you can also do is overseed. With clover in your garden and clover is a great resource for pollinators. In terms of bigger things, you can contact your local councils and ask them to become a bee city, which is a specific designation, which means they support pollinators and you have projects that support that. And also contact your municipality and ask them if they can support Meadow habitat restoration projects in their area.
Dan Seguin 20:57
Okay, Tracy, and Meaghan, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions? We'll start with Tracy and then we'll follow up with Meaghan.
Meaghan McDonald 21:06
Sure.
Dan Seguin 21:09
What is your favorite pollinator?
Tracy Etwell 21:13
My favorite pollinator is the Gypsy cuckoo Bumblebee, which is an endangered Bumblebee with a great name.
Meaghan McDonald 21:22
I was just gonna say our native bees, there's many species and they're all they're all important. So I don't have quite a specific answer, but native bees.
Dan Seguin 21:31
Now, what is your favorite flower?
Tracy Etwell 21:35
My favorite is the brown eyed Susan, which is a native plant, of course, a powerhouse for pollinators and very easy to grow.
Meaghan McDonald 21:44
I like wild bergamot. It's again, easy to grow. And it's got a really cool kind of purple flower on it.
Dan Seguin 21:52
Moving on, what is one thing you can't live without?
Tracy Etwell 21:57
Chocolate! Always chocolate!
Meaghan McDonald 22:01
And I would say coffee.
Dan Seguin 22:05
What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?
Tracy Etwell 22:11
For me, it's been sourdough baking - making my own.
Meaghan McDonald 22:17
I've been starting a lot of craft projects and not finishing them. And we also got to canoe last year and new cross country skis this winter.
Dan Seguin 22:26
Okay, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
Tracy Etwell 22:31
For me it would be to fly to travel and see the world.
Meaghan McDonald 22:36
Also to fly.
Dan Seguin 22:37
That this is an interesting one. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, would you be telling her?
Tracy Etwell 22:46
I would tell her to enjoy life more and not to be so serious.
Meaghan McDonald 22:52
I would say same and also travel and spend time with friends and family as much as you can, while you can.
Dan Seguin 22:59
Okay, what excites you most about these pollinator projects?
Tracy Etwell 23:05
I get excited to see the new life emerge. So when new plants start to bloom when the insects start to come in and use that habitat that just fills me with joy.
Meaghan McDonald 23:16
And I'm excited about kind of learning something new because these projects are new for us and being able to bring some of that knowledge to our landowners and then also to some of our conservation areas as well.
Dan Seguin 23:28
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Tracy Etwell 23:35
For me, I would say it's the application of new technologies that are coming online that help us support the conservation projects, answering specific questions that we need help with.
Meaghan McDonald 23:45
And I really like working with landowners and sort of seeing them connect the dots on how what they do on their property really impacts nature and it's always fun to see.
Dan Seguin 23:56
Well, Tracy, Meaghan, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I truly hope you had a lot of fun. And thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.
Tracy Etwell 24:11
It's been great. Thank you, Dan.
Meaghan McDonald 24:12
Yeah, thank you. It has been.
Dan Seguin 24:17
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, ake sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
Did you know that it wasn’t too long ago that coal represented 25% of Ontario’s energy supply mix? This toxic energy source caused a host of damaging environmental and public health problems. Thankfully, in 2014, Ontario was the first jurisdiction in North America to eliminate coal as a source of electricity production. Climate change and transportation policy analyst at David Suzuki Foundation, Gideon Forman joins us to chat about coal, how Ontario transitioned away from it, and what’s next for Canada on the road to cleaner energy.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:02
Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Today I'd like to talk to you about smog warnings, acid rain, air pollution. In other words, the early 2000s in Ontario, coal fired power plants have been linked to a host of damaging environmental problems. But coal also causes a lot of public health issues with links to asthma, cancer, neurological problems, and other hearts and lung illnesses. Back in 2003, 25% of electricity in Ontario came from coal plants. Did you know coal emissions were a major source of air pollution that contributed to 53 smog days in Ontario alone in 2005. That same year, my great city of Ottawa had 25. For those that may not know, smog days would be declared in the province on days when the air wasn't as safe to breathe due to the amount of toxins in the air. In 2014, Ontario was the first jurisdiction in North America to completely eliminate coal as a source of electricity production. According to Air Quality Ontario, the province phase out of coal has been considered to have achieved the most significant results of any climate change initiative in North America to date. Now, today 94% of electricity generated in Ontario is emission free, and those smog advisories are all but a thing of the past. There's no doubt that Ontario has been a leader in fighting climate change and investing in cleaner energy sources. By 2030, Canada will phase out traditional coal fired electricity in the country altogether, striving to have 90% of electricity from non emitting sources, and simultaneously cutting carbon pollution from the electricity sector by 12.8 million tons. So here's today's big question: Although it wasn't that long ago that coal made up a quarter of Ontario's electricity supply, I feel the story of how it was achieved has been lost somehow. So how did Ontario break ahead of the pack in North America to decommission coal plants? And what does that mean for our future in the renewable energy space? joining me on today's show is Gideon Forman on climate change and transportation policy analyst from the David Suzuki foundation. Gideon has a Master's of art and philosophy from McGill University and a certificate in renewable energy from the University of Toronto. He has been awarded the Queen Elizabeth to Diamond Jubilee Medal and is a former executive director for the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment. Hey, Gideon, thanks so much for joining us today. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, your background, and what keeps you passionate about your work.
Gideon Forman 04:05
Thanks, Dan. Yes, I've worked in the environmental movement for I guess about 20 years now. Gosh, I guess that's right. But it's been a long time. I work with the David Suzuki Foundation, now. For the last five years I've worked with David Suzuki, which has been wonderful. But before that for 10 years, 11 years actually, I was with a group called Physicians for the Environment, a group of wonderful doctors across Canada using their credibility and their scientific smarts as doctors to push for stronger environmental legislation. And with the Physicians for the Environment Group. We worked on issues like pesticides trying to ban lawn and garden pesticides primarily to protect kids health. And we did a lot of work on the coal phase out in Ontario and ramping up renewable energy. So I have some familiarity with that I'm not a doctor myself, but I loved working with doctors and it was wonderful to see the the influence that doctors had on the environmental debate. For the last five years since june 2015 almost six years now i've been with the david suzuki foundation worked on a number of different things but my major work now is around transportation - trying primarily to give people alternatives to the car really that's what my work is in a nutshell: walking, cycling, public transit these sorts of things so they can leave the car at home and move around in a more sustainable way.
Dan Seguin 05:24
i have a question for you what is coal exactly can you give us some background around why it was used as an energy source and why it made up such a large portion of our provincial supply mix until recent decades
Gideon Forman 05:41
Coal, at its most basic is decayed plant matter ancient ancient decayed plant matter that's been under pressure and is formed into a mass of hard typically black or brown mass it's mostly carbon and it's been used until relatively recently because it's cheap and often quite accessible. Unfortunately it's still used in many parts of the world it was used in ontario to produce electricity till 2014 we'll have more chance to talk about that but the short answer is that it was cheap you could throw it into the furnace and burn it and it created a lot of heat and drove generators there were lots of terrible problems with it but it was accessible and cheap.
Dan Seguin 06:25
Gideon some of us folks remember the days when acid rain and smog or irregular occurrence were these weather advisories a primary consequence of our coal usage and if so, how? Also what other impacts was it having on the environment and the health impacts on residents of ontario?
Gideon Forman 06:51
Yeah so certainly the coal plants were a big factor in smog and acid rain. They weren't the only factor cars and trucks and other sources of fossil fuel combustion were also a problem but the coal plants were a big problem. The coal plants in Ontario contributed of course and coal plants from other parts of north america primarily the midwestern us they were big contributors to our acid rain and our smog so that's that was very much an issue. In terms of the impacts the biggest impact that we talked about now is the climate impact the coal plants at their height were the equivalent of millions of cars on our roads when we took the coal plants out it was like removing 6 million cars from ontario's roads so they were a very very significant source of greenhouse gases and they also produced other things that were toxic things like mercury for example and arsenic so they were also a significant source of human health problems they made asthma worse, what they call the particulate matter in smog some of that came from coal plants and particulate matter is a factor in lung cancer so a number of different ailments were connected to the coal plants
Dan Seguin 08:10
Now in a nutshell what was the case for eliminating coal fired electricity in ontario and who led it? Also was there backlash in 2003 when ontario announced it was closing the provinces for remaining coal fired plant if so what kind of backlash was there?
Gideon Forman 08:33
okay that's a number of questions so the case for closing the coal plants was that they were just a massive massive source of greenhouse gas emissions and other contributors to pollution things like nitrous oxides and sulfur oxide sulfur dioxide so they were contributing to climate change they were contributing to acid rain and they were contributing to human illness on a very big scale and the other reason that it made sense to close them was it was something doable. In ontario because they were publicly owned, there was an opportunity to do it in quite a a rapid and efficient manner you know in many places coal plants are privately owned - in the united states for example and so if they're privately owned it's very difficult to close them quickly there's all sorts of issues around compensation and government has to step in it can be very complicated legally but, in ontario, all the coal plants were owned by the government of ontario so the government of ontario could close them basically through the stroke of a pen and that's what happened it was over a number of years but that's what happened the Ontario government decided that, by 2014, they would no longer be coal used to produce electricity in the province and that's what happened so it was a matter of something that would have huge impact and that was doable that was kind of the thinking behind it. In terms of backlash, there wasn't a lot of backlash. There were some who raised concerns about the transition, loss of jobs for workers in the coal plants. There were some questions about electricity supply. But for the most part, I think there was a lot of public acceptance that we had to get off coal, this was something really good to do from an air quality point of view. And increasingly, from a climate change point of view. In terms of who drove the coal phase out, a lot of it was pushed by health professionals: the Ontario Medical Association, doctors, including some of the doctors that I worked with, in physicians for the environment, nurses, Ontario public health officials, medical officers of health, these sorts of people and family physicians, these sorts of people saw firsthand the effect of smog, of bad air on people's lives. And they talked openly about it. And so was very much driven, I think, by the health professionals. I remember one time, Dan, when I was working with the physicians for environment, we we arranged a meeting to meet with the Minister of Environment for the province of Ontario, and I brought in doctors, I brought in nurses, and we had an opportunity to talk across the table with the minister. And it was just fascinating for the minister to see firsthand the effect of coal on people's lives in a very direct way. I remember one of our doctors from Kingston, she said, you know, Minister, there are times when the weather when the air quality is so poor, that my patients can't go outside, and I really worry for them. And if you're close the coal plants, this would make a huge difference in the lives of my patients. And you could see the minister really connecting with that at a very human level. So it wasn't just an abstraction for our doctors. And so I think that was one of the driving forces behind the coal plant phase out.
Dan Seguin 11:54
I understand coal was reduced in stages between 2003 and 2014. To ensure system reliability, get in, do you know, what were some of the challenges? And where did they make up the shortfall in generation? Has it been renewable energy? Was it a smooth transition? What investments or strategies were put in place to make sure it succeeded?
Gideon Forman 12:24
Yes, I think the short answer is that it was a smooth transition. I mean, it was over 11 years. So it wasn't like someone, you know, flipped a switch. And it ended overnight, it was carefully done thoughtfully done over more than a decade. I think that the the ability of the province to move off coal was a fact was it was a function of a couple of things. So first of all, the doctors and the nurses, as I mentioned, I think prepared the public explained the case for going off coal. So I think you had a public that was very supportive of the phase out of coal. I think that was one factor. The other factor is that while coal represented 25% of the electricity grid, it wasn't so massive, an amount that it was impossible to do. I think it was, it was a stretch. But it was something that was technically possible to do. It wasn't like we were having it's not like our grid was 100% coal, and we were trying to get off for 100% coal. It was 25%, Dan. And that's a very significant amount, but it was also doable. So I think that's important to say. The the other pieces that they brought in the entire government brought in some of the other parts of our electricity grid, and ramp them up. So they refurbish the Bruce Nuclear plants so that a couple of those units came back. And that was helpful in in the transition. They put in some natural gas. And that's problematic. We can talk about that in a little while, but but they did ramp up natural gas, what they call peaker plants for the peak use of electricity. They did bring in a little bit more hydro power. And the biggest. And the biggest are in terms of in my view, the most exciting part of the transition was renewable energy. And so that was quite an effort in those years from 2003 to 2014. To ramp up renewable energy, particularly wind and solar power, wind and solar are still relatively small amounts of the of the grid. In 2014, it was about 7% came from wind and solar. But that was also one of the things that allowed us to get off coal. So it was a combination of those things, some more nuclear, some some renewables and some natural gas, and also more of an emphasis on conservation so that we reduce demand.
Dan Seguin 14:53
Let's move on to the next question. decommissioning coal plants and investing in renewable energy comes at a cost. What kind of impact did this have on Ontario's electricity rates? According to the most recent comparison stats, I have Ontario's electricity rates are the fourth lowest in the country. In your mind, were fears justified or just overblown?
Gideon Forman 15:20
Oh, yes, there was quite a bit of nonsense about how expensive and I put that in quotation marks, renewables are, first of all, then the cost of renewables has dropped dramatically. Between 2012 and 2016, in Ontario, the cost of solar, for example, went down by about 50%. And this is part of a worldwide trend. And it's not just for me, I mean, don't take our word for it. If you look at the OECD statistics, just in general, the cost of wind and solar have dropped very, very precipitously, very sharp drop in the cost of wind, and solar in particular. And it's not surprising, once you put wind and solar in once you put in the solar panels or build the windmills, the fuel, if you will, which is wind and sunlight are free. So it's not so surprising that you know, hello, renewables are not expensive. The other reason why we had such confidence in renewables in terms of cost, was it some of the strongest economies in the world, were embracing renewables. And I'm thinking, for example of Germany. Germany's gone into renewables, much of it wind and solar in a very big way, very powerful industrial economy. And yet, they've been able to make very significant advances in wind and solar to the point where a very significant amount of their whole grid is now renewable. So we never had any concerns about the cost. There's always some initial costs when you're moving to something new. But those would be more than compensated for by just the fact that renewables were so inexpensive to run. So we were never concerned about that. The other side of the equation is that as we got off coal, we were also saving money. Don't forget, there's a lot of costs, dollar costs, in acid rain in destroying lakes, destroying our natural world, there's a lot of costs in harming people's health, right? If you've got 1000s of people who have asthma that's gotten worse or other illnesses connected with bad air, that's a cost as well. And of course, climate change is the perhaps the ultimate cost. So by phasing out coal fired power, we were saving money. And by ramping up renewables, we were also saving money. So in terms of just dollars, yes, it made a lot of sense.
Dan Seguin 17:34
Now, with the removal of coal from Ontario supply mix, is gas next? what are some easy wins or long term solutions that will take Ontario's or Canada's energy transformation to the next level?
Gideon Forman 17:51
So one of the things, no question, that allowed us to get off coal was natural gas. And at the time, people saw natural gas as what we call kind of a transition fuel. You know, many in the environmental movement said it was a bridge, you know, we want to get to 100% renewables, we can't do that right away. So we need to move off coal, ramp up natural gas, at least in the short term. I think unfortunately, now that that was probably a mistake to think that natural gas was a bridge. Natural gas is a fossil fuel. And although in some ways it's better than coal, it's still very problematic. The production of natural gas, we have what are called fugitive emissions where methane leaks, when you extract the natural gas, that's a big problem. And then, of course, when you burn the natural gas, in a home or when you burn it into an electricity plant, you're producing greenhouse gases. So we have some real concerns about natural gas, and electricity production. Where we need to be over time is renewables. I think the good news is that there's a lot of solar resource in Ontario, there's a lot of wind in Ontario, we can probably get some more from a little bit more from hydro, and that has to be done properly. But we can probably get a little bit more from Ontario, on terms of hydro. But I think one of the biggest things that we can draw on Dan, to get to 100% renewables is getting water power from other provinces. One of the things that we've talked about is buying more hydro power, water power from Quebec, Quebec has a huge hydro resource, as you know, and a lot of it's sold to American customers. That's understandable. But we could also buy much more of it here in Ontario. And so we think that between a combination of more wind and solar and buying hydro from Quebec, combined with more conservation, we really need to drive down our demand. We think between those factors over time, we could have a 100% renewable grid. That's when we think we need to be
Dan Seguin 19:56
Gideon wondering if you could share with us what our The biggest challenges or obstacles we are facing now, in order to improve how we source energy in a post coal energy world, what is needed to overcome these?
Gideon Forman 20:15
I think we probably have to stop calling natural gas, natural gas, you know, the word natural gas makes it sound like it's all just delightful, right? It's like organic, organic fruits and vegetables, natural gas is a fossil fuel. And we have to remember that. And I think we have to put the climate crisis front and center. And one of the things that's getting in the way of that is this belief that, you know, that natural gas is, is reasonable, both for producing electricity and for heating our homes, we do overtime have to move away from those things. Those are big challenges. We also have concerns with nuclear. I mean, there's concerns about cost of nuclear, it's getting increasingly expensive. There's concerns about what we do with the nuclear waste. I mean, I don't know what community in Canada that particularly wants to house nuclear waste in its community. And I understand that, you know, we don't have a really long term, solid solution for nuclear waste anywhere on the planet that I'm aware of. So that's a very big concern. communities don't want that waste. And even if we're able to store it for, say, 500 years or 1000 years, some of that nuclear waste is radioactive for hundreds of 1000s of years. So that's a big problem. So I don't think nuclear is a long term solution as well, that's that's our view. But there are some that think that and so I think that that's another obstacle that we have to that we have to confront as well, those who think that nuclear is a climate solution, I my own view is that it's not a long term solution. The other piece that we have to remember around nuclear is that you have to mine for the uranium, the uranium that is used to fire the nuclear plant comes out of the earth, and you have to mined for it and the mining of uranium is itself very carbon intensive, you have to use very heavy machinery that burns diesel fuel to get it that uranium. And so the claims that are made about nuclear being, you know, completely clean and green, we believe are not accurate. So, but there is this belief that nuclear is emissions free. And so I think that's one of the obstacles as well.
Dan Seguin 22:25
Well, you've given us a picture of success and how we've managed to overcome these challenges of removing coal from our provincial supply mix. Ontario's electricity supply is expected to evolve over the next few decades as industry and consumers needs change. Gideon, what do you think the future holds? And what would you like to see?
Gideon Forman 22:52
Well, I think the future really doesforesee much more in the way of renewables. I mean, what's really exciting about renewable energy is twofold. In my view, first of all, we're seeing major economies I mentioned Germany, but it's also places like Britain, Scandinavia, China, these large economies are increasingly powering themselves with renewables, much of it wind and solar. I'm not saying that they're at 100% yet, but it is astounding just how much of it is now powered by renewable energy. So that suggests to me that it's really practical for a country like ours, which has a relatively small population, and a huge wind and solar resource to be able to power ourselves 100% renewable. I mean, I think for example, on the prairies, southern Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan. It's just a world class solar and wind resource. I mean, in Saskatchewan, for example, Regina is the is the sunniest capital in Canada. saskatoons motto is Saskatoon shines? Well, that's because there's an enormous amount of solar power on those Southern prairie regions. And so that suggests to me that if we wanted to, we really could power most, if not all of our electricity needs with renewables. So that's one thing that's very encouraging to me, and I'd like to see in the future, and the other piece is just the cost that I mentioned, but I think it really is important to to reiterate it is that the cost is so favorable with renewable energy, so it's practical, and it's something we can afford to do. Okay, Gideon,
Dan Seguin 24:25
are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?
24:29
Okay.
Dan Seguin 24:30
What is your favorite word?
Gideon Forman 24:34
My favorite word is imagination and creativity. Sorry, two words creativity and imagination.
Dan Seguin 24:39
Now, what is the one thing you can't live without?
Gideon Forman 24:43
I don't think I could live without my kids.
Dan Seguin 24:45
What habit or hobby. Have you picked up during shelter in place?
Gideon Forman 24:51
I do a lot more bike riding now. Actually. Yeah, yeah, I used to be much more of a walker. But now I'm a big cyclist.
Dan Seguin 24:58
If you could have one superpower. Would it be
Gideon Forman 25:02
just to be more chill just to be a bit more calm? I'd love to have the superpower just to be able to call myself immediately.
Dan Seguin 25:10
If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?
Gideon Forman 25:16
Well, I think I'd probably say, Excuse me, I think I'd probably say to my 18 year old self experiment a bit more, you know, try a few more things that are a bit out of your comfort zone. Yeah, I think I was a bit too cautious as a teenager.
Dan Seguin 25:30
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?
Gideon Forman 25:36
Well, the thing I find most interesting and also most exciting is the youth climate movement. The the young people under Greta tunberg. And other young people, not just Greta, the sweetest young woman but the the the worldwide youth climate movement, young people saying we have to take action on climate change and getting out in the streets. I found that really impressive and really moving.
Dan Seguin 26:01
Well, Gideon, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcasts. Again, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Gideon Forman 26:12
Yeah, thank you so much. It was great chance to relive those days of the coal phase out. Thank you.
Dan Seguin 26:20
Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydro ottawa.com backslash podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
Québec produces 32% of Canada’s total power generated from all sources, but is only responsible for 1% of the country’s GHG emissions linked to electric utilities. What lessons can we learn from Hydro Québec’s strategic approach to innovation, climate change, expansion and technology - and how they fit together to create one of the world’s leaders in a decarbonized future? To help guide us, we’ve invited the individual responsible for developing Hydro Quebec’s overall innovation vision, strategy and R&D efforts, David Murray, Chief Innovation Officer of Hydro‑Québec.
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Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:42
Everyone welcome back to another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Today, we're going to talk about LaBelle province, Quebec, more specifically Hydro Quebec, one of the largest electric utilities in Canada, and how their innovation and clean energy practices are also helping to make the world a beautiful place. Hydro Quebec has 62 hydro power generating stations and 28 reservoirs, making it the largest hydroelectric power generator in the country. In 2019, the province generated almost 200 terawatt hours of electricity, with hydro power alone, and with 500,000 Lakes and 4500 rivers, Quebec has more hydroelectric potential, Quebec produces 32% of Canada's total power generated from all sources, but is only responsible for 1% of the country's GHG emissions link to electric utilities. What's more, Quebec residents have the lowest residential rates in North America. electricity prices are nearly twice as high in other provinces, and four times higher in places like New York and Boston. And Quebec is doing it all with 99% clean and renewable energy. What is Hydro Quebec's secret sauce? Some chalk it up to hydro Quebec's commitment to innovation, research and development. Hydro Quebec has two state of the art research centers known as Institut de recherche d’Hydro-Québec (IREQ). That's driving breakthroughs in the field of energy, particularly the provinces electrification of transportation, energy storage, and energy efficiency. More than any electric utility, Hydro Quebec is setting its sights on growth opportunities within and beyond borders, including an agreement to supply Massachusetts with 9.45 terawatts of power per year starting in 2022. So here's today's big question. What lessons can we learn about Hydro Quebec strategic approach to innovation, climate change, expansion and technology and how they fit together to create one of the world's leaders in a decarbonized future. To help us navigate the hallways of this behemoth. We've invited the individual responsible for developing Hydro Quebec overall innovation vision, strategy, and overseeing the company's r&d efforts. He is no stranger to large corporations, as he held senior positions in companies like Bilbao, GE Flextronics, Nortel networks, and Rolls Royce. Dear listeners, please welcome David Murray, Chief Innovation Officer of Hydro Quebec and the executive vice president of generation. Welcome, David. Let's dive into Hydro Quebec transition towards a greener and more efficient power system. What have been the biggest drivers for change and innovation that has led the organization to where it's at today?
David Murray 04:21
Oh, that's a great question. So obviously, we are privileged at Hydro Quebec. I think the first thing that we need to say is that we're privileged because we carry on what has been done over 75 years ago. So some of our predecessors actually decided to go in green energy hydro power. And actually it was a debate at the time because nuclear nuclear electricity was was probably the alternative. And we're looking after to have these decisions who were lucky to have this already. But not because we have this is that we have you know to stay put and not do anything so innovation is key for different aspects not number one is actually specially today with the environment environment that needs it more than ever, so for us to push the boundaries and in greener Quebec, because yes, we are privileged, but there's still room for opportunities if we think about transportation, for example, second aspect is obviously, sometimes a bit sensitive of profitability. So we're privileged to have, you know, very, very low rates. And obviously, not only to export our electricity, but also for having more of the electrification and in Quebec province. So profitability would say, is the second aspect that we need to push, push the boundaries and in terms of innovation, and and i would say, the last aspect is actually the social aspect. So we have to be there in terms of keeping the rates as low as possible for the Quebecers. So for us, it brings us to a position where we need to innovate, we need to think differently. And actually, we need to push ourselves in defining the energetic Quebec of tomorrow, and this is what the team is doing. And obviously, we're privileged because we have our research institute, where we have about 500, you know, scientists working day in and day out on pushing the envelope. So we're we're actually probably in good position. And it is quite exciting to see what's going on right now at their research institute.
Dan Seguin 06:23
Let's move on to the next question. the profitability of Hydro Quebec's operations allow you to pay a significant dividend to your shareholder, the Quebec government. Can you outline for us how this benefits constituents and contributes to the Quebec economy?
David Murray 06:41
Yeah, so, roughly every year we do contribute you know, if I include taxes, if I include the rights on water, we contribute about 3.5-3.6 billion to the to the Quebec government. So which which is not, you know, quite quite important for for obviously, for the government specially in those times where, you know, our different governments are getting some inventions helping out into the pandemic situation. So, so this is this is what number two is what's important to understand also is that we do invest quite large amount of money into the Quebec province. So for example, we give roughly $3.4-3.5 billion of contracts into Quebec economy, year over year, so you're talking, you know, roughly seven plus billion dollars of return that we're, we're generating either tax or we're generating work into the Quebec province. So we are certainly an important aspect of the Quebec government.
Dan Seguin 07:43
David. Last year, the federal government released a report stating that hydrogen will play a key part in Canada's plan for net zero emissions by 2050. What role will green hydrogen play in Quebec and its future energy mix?
David Murray 08:02
So Hydrogen, you know, it's certainly something that's gonna, that is on the rise in terms of visibility, major investments going on through the world, if you think about Japan, you know, the Olympics are supposed to be, you know, based on hydrogen. Germany is also very, very focused in terms of investments and more and more now in North America. So obviously, it's going to be the same in Quebec. So and we already moved on a couple of projects of we've announced lately a projects in the petrol chemical area 88 or 90 megawatt electrolyzer that we've we've put in place, so you can, you can imagine the the size of the project, which is key, and there's another 20 megawatts, that we're also pushing in big on coal for another company. So we're roughly already involved with 100 megawatts and in terms of hydrogen. So for sure, that's going to be key. The other aspect of the Hydro Quebec is looking into and questioning itself is about transportation, so transportation for larger vehicles, I would say so smaller vehicles is going to be more most probably electric. Meanwhile, there's a lot of debate on this. But I mean, the momentum is there with the the the technology right now. So but hydrogen, I think is going to be a use for larger vehicles. And we're looking into this. We have different projects that they were looking into, but at the same time, we need to do it in the right time. Because you need the ecosystem to be there. So but at the same time, if you don't do it, either ecosystem is not going to be there. So it's kind of a vicious circle, but definitely and we believe that the hydrogen is going to play a role into reducing the GHG emission and our belief is that transportation is certainly going to be key into that aspect.
Dan Seguin 09:50
Now since 1970 hydro Quebec's Research Institute IREQ has been developing advanced technologies and applications tailored to the energy sector to help improve the performance of its power systems and better serve customers. How and why was IREQ founded? What is its purpose? And what are the pillars that drive its vision.
David Murray 10:19
So I'm on a research center, celebrated 50 years last year. So we've been, we've been existing since the 70s, early 70s, late 60s, so the idea actually was created the based on bringing large amounts of electricity from up north to the south, because typically, if you look at history, so you're gonna have your your dams are producing, you're producing center, close to, you know, where it's going to be used. But Quebec was built in a different way of the large amount of water is up north. So we had to, you know, be creative. And this is where Mr. Shambo with Research Center was put in place in order to find ways to bring the electricity from up north to south. And we needed large, large ways to transportation line. So this is where the 735 kV line created. So it really changed the way of doing business. You know, and instead of passing, like, multiple lines, you had one line that could do it, do it all, so that that was actually critical, and in the energy transition for Hydro Quebec. But now the research institute keeps pushing it. So we, we want to, again, we want to keep the boundaries, higher and push the limit in terms of electrification. And, you know, if you think that the system and the energy sector has been pretty stable, the way it's been doing business year over year, and now we are we're part of energy transition. So our IREQ, our research center is going to become key in in a couple of aspects. Number one, resilience over network. So obviously, with the climate changes, and everything that's happening, I mean, you have to, you know, think differently about how you're going to be building your network. Second is efficiency, obviously, we're privileged because we have one of the lowest rates, you know, in on the planet. But that doesn't mean that we have to take it for granted. So the team is working on on finding ways to do our lines better: different materials, for example, with bush lien, also into Hydro Quebec, in order to, you know, build some processes they'll be keeping rates as low as possible. Number three, is going to be the energy transition, I was talking about it earlier, this is crazy, you know, we're living something that's as big as the telco changes, I would say, with the energy transition, you know, just go back 5 years, you know, the world is completely different. And we're probably just at the beginning of it, where, you know, we're going to bring IoT devices and a new technology, new ways of producing decentralization behind the meter. So, I mean, there's so many things happening now. So there's so many variables. So it's important for researchers to think about this, and what's the best for the Quebecers with the best in the network to accommodate all these, these changes. And last but not least, is really working, you know, with data with software computing, in terms of focusing and giving an amazing customer experience. So customer services is key. So now we're going more and more about the experience, I would say, and we had lost that I would say, if I go back five years ago with Hydro Quebec now we've done a lot of progress. So there's still still some ways where we could we could improve, but our research center is working on software and in artificial intelligence in order to push the boundaries and bring us to the next level.
Dan Seguin 13:58
Okay, let's keep on going here with with technology and innovation. I'm fascinated about your robotics department, and in particular, how you're leveraging drones that have the capability to land on energized conductors. Can you tell us about your robotics program and how these drones you developed are helping you with some very dangerous jobs?
David Murray 14:26
Oh, you're touching a very important subject because I am a drone pilot. So I'm fascinated by drones. So I have my license. And I fly them once in a while. And a couple years ago, two - three years ago, I was at the Research Institute and I was walking by robotic department, the guys were playing with the drone, I could see them on the table. And I was like, Okay, I'm going there. I gotta go and see. And so I meet the team over there and telling them you know, bragging a little bit saying I'm a drone pilot, and everything says, Oh, that's cool. So, and I said, so Okay, so come here, come here and try that, you know, if you want to fly the drone, you know, I'm like, oh, okay, that could be interesting. And then I asked the price of the drone, and said, forget about it. So we're going to keep the experts doing what they do, and I'll stay on this side of the table. So drones, obviously, you know, these are new technologies, we have developed our robotic team different different tools. Now, I would say to help us out so we have line rangers for example, you know, as a spy that goes on the lines and can spec miles and miles of lines, which is great, because it's safer, we don't have to put people into this, you don't have to, you know, hijack these are employees and to make sure that the lines are okay, so these devices now can can make analysis on you know, online, and you can take, you know, recording pictures, whatever you want x rays, so this is crazy. Now, next step is really to bring your own drones. So, drones can can land on 735 kV lines, do inspections, and you can imagine the speed of doing things. So it goes back to what I was saying earlier. So you know, your health and safety is improved your efficiency and resilience of the network is there and you're doing it efficiently. So let's say that's helping us on reducing the rates and keeping rates low. So we're looking at different aspect now. So we're using it also on on dam inspection. So we're up north going so before use this trap the guy you know and go and inspect the the side of the dam and everything. So now you just buy the drone that takes you know, a fraction of the time, it's safer. And you get the you can do more at a certain level at the same time. So this is this is this is key. And the next thing that we're looking into is actually a fighter dome over stations, power stations and look at thermographic images to be able to detect if there are any weaknesses or pre defects so we can we can be more effective. So again, you can imagine, you know, the speed that you can do versus you know, having having people stop people working, you know, disconnect the power into this, and it's very inefficient. So now we got to use these technologies, so quite exciting. But I'm not going to fly these drones. I'm going to let the experts do it.
Dan Seguin 17:10
For many years, David hydro Quebec's pursuit to electrify transportation has revolutionized the electric vehicle sector in the province while supporting provincial decarbonisation. It's safe to say that the electrification of transportation is a major growth driver for Hydro Quebec. What are some of the examples of synergies you develop to help drive the mobility sector?
David Murray 17:39
Yeah, so I would say just, it's a major contributor on the growth, I would say, it's an important contributor, it's not that big for us. I mean, if you think about you know, having all the electricity, if you have 1 million vehicles, if you have multiple vehicles for let's say, 4 million, it'll be like whatever 12 with our so when you think that, you know, we can we can produce over 200 years. So that's, that's important, but it's not huge in terms of in terms of volumes. But quite, we're still pushing it, and we're pushing it, because it's gonna help reducing the a GHG emissions so. So for us, it's key that we're, we stay a leader and in Canada and in the Americas in terms of EV. So we have partnership with our governments, obviously, that giving you know subventions in order for getting the cars. We actually, in terms of working out and making it easy for customers, we actually acquired a company called the Axso. So we've launched a new software in last June, and actually you just enter the spec of your cars, and we'll tell you where to go with it and what's the best route? Where are the stations? And we actually, it was interesting, because once one, when we launched that, on Apple, actually, Apple called us to say what's going on with this software. So because we hit like number seven on the day or something. So pretty happy about this. So this is this is going to be key. And the next step is working. Obviously, we're you know, partnering is working with the Quebec government. So we're looking at next steps now to increase the number of recharge stations that we have throughout Quebec. So 2500 fast charging stations that we've announced by 2030. And we want to add on top of that, so we want to make sure that people feel secure about, about taking electric cars and going wherever they want. So that's, that's quite exciting. And obviously, the environment needs it. So as fast as we can do it, the better it will be.
Dan Seguin 19:52
Let's move to renewables. It's clear that Hydro Quebec has become a world benchmark in the generation of clean, renewable energy. It also plays a key role in the development of battery technologies for electric vehicles, as well as electric power trains, Hydro Quebec saw EV's as an important source of revenue growth for its organization. And as early as 2012, you've been very active in deploying the country's first public charging network. Can you maybe talk to us about electric circuit? And what's next for it?
David Murray 20:32
Yeah, so electric circuit, like I was saying, we're going to push a higher number of recharge stations and and increase, increase the confidence. What we're doing also, in terms of the, all the electricity, electrification of Quebec, we're pushing the boundaries also, where we believe that there are some roadblocks and for example, if you think about electrification of larger vehicles, like school buses, for example. And one thing that we're looking into is trying to remove the roadblock of infrastructure investments. It's all nice, because all you know, sometimes you go in the news, and oh, someone bought so many buses, electric, which is great. It's great stuff. But behind it, I mean, there's all the infrastructure, and this is this is a roadblock because it's major, major investments that these companies have to do today. It's very simple school buses, they just put deisel in, and they just go. But now if you go electric, the game is changing. So the stations needing to understand, you know, when do they recharge, what's the cycle, what's the best timing of it, not, you know, overkill, all the capex that you need in order to make it make it work. And this is somewhere that we're working on something that we're working on. So we want to put Hydro Quebec in the middle of that, working with different partners. And to ease all the capex that's required for these, these school buses, throughout the the Quebec province. And this is going to be good also, for public transportation. So you know, it's same thing for them. I mean, it's major, now they have these big garages. So when you think you know, the number of school buses you have in Ottawa, for example. I mean, imagine when you have to convert all this to electricity, I mean, the guys upstairs, they're going to look at this as demand, that's going to take a lot of capex, right how we're going to do this and in buying you the bus, you have to you have to have all the investment that's going to be done behind itself. So that's key. And this is something that we want to tackle, and we're working now, and we're working with the Quebec government, but we want to be an enabler into this. And that's what we that's where we're focused on which is, which is quite interesting. And last point, I would say is, we can't forget that I took it back as develop electric motors. So we had the subdivision company called Tmfour, which is in boucherville, right here, near Montreal on South Shore. And we've developed amazing electric motors and we actually sold a portion of the company. So we still own like 45% of the company, but we made a partnership with Dana and in the US. And Dana is like, you know, a large company that's been there for over 100 years. So they selected our motor and now we're deploying these borders around around the globe. So that's, that's really something that's actually pretty cool. So to have Hydro Quebec, participating around the globe, and electrifying, the large, it's for larger vehicles, but it's actually quite interesting. And I had the I had the pleasure to try one of the vehicles actually. So on in Shawenigen, we have, we have this place where we built two houses, where we wanted to push the boundaries about the energy transition. And we had our scientists from Research Institute and the guys go crazy, have fun, and we have one whole house that's decoys that can you know, do the comparison with the house that's fully equipped and, and it was interesting to see all they've done. So we have solar panels on the roof, we have battery in the basement. We have you know, all the technology, then IoT, and thermostat lights and everything that came you can imagine. And it's exciting to see. And in the living room, you have this major screen like TV screen, but you take a tablet just by opening up and then you have your whole network. And in the garage. You also have a device that can take your car electricity. So the we had the we have the Jeep Cherokee that we converted and we put our motor, a tm four engine in there. And I had the luxury to drive it around and park it in the garage and connect the car to the house. And then now the car was actually a provider for the house. So you can imagine now if there's an outage your car can become your battery. So it's quite interesting and then the scientists done you know all kinds of simulation as we were there with their CEO at the time, and all the management team, and we showed what we what we had, which led today to our first microgrid. So when Lac Megantic in Quebec had a big tragedy and a lot of people that died when the oil train derailed and so we had meetings with the mayor, fine. And we decided to spin that and having Lac Megantic like a futuristic city. And now we have, we are connecting. As we speak, we are connecting all these devices and all these houses that we've done. So we had to ensure when again, and now we have a copy paste version that are being built in Lac Megantic, of which we're going to be using all this technology. So quite exciting to see how we're turning it in now this is going to help in terms of electrification of the grid, actually,
Dan Seguin 25:52
it's very interesting. Okay, now, hoping you can shed light here. With electrification comes more demand on capex electricity grid, particularly during peak periods. What is your outlook telling you about forecasted demand? And what kind of infrastructure will be required, if any, to support the electric future?
David Murray 26:16
Yeah, so obviously, we've been looking at the possibilities, if we want to go and have Quebec at achieving the GHG emission, there's going to be a need for reducing for increasing the level of electricity consumption. So our distributor is looking into this on a yearly basis to see how that growth is coming. And we've seen that growth over the past couple of years. So definitely if we want to achieve all the possibilities, not only for Quebec, but also for the different provinces, as we are large exporter of our energy, so I think there's going to be a great opportunities for us. So we're looking at different aspects. But before we go, actually in saying, we're going to produce and add capacity, the number one priority is actually to find ways to reduce the consumption. So energy efficiency is key. And this is something that we're looking into. So we started, we launched a sub company that's called Hilo which is going behind the meter is actually erasing the demand on peak timings, so And actually it's rewards. So we're asking people to participate, and they have the options to participate or not, but actually, if they got the equipment, it's because they want to use it. And it gives us you know, opportunities when there's high demand an opportunity to reduce our consumption and not use for example, buy electricity from external means, or start fossil peakers in order to supply the demand because there are a couple of hours during peak times that we have, we have challenges so that it's only a few hours. And we've launched that. And it's been very, very successful, actually. So now we can erase. So you can imagine that it's all it's a winner because it prevents you to invest. So push investments. And obviously, if if you do invest, there's going to be an impact on your rates. So there's got to this thing gonna pay off. So good for good for the rates, because we're, we're pushing investments. Second is good for the environment, because we're not building lines through forests. And it's never popular. I mean, he prayed everybody wants electricity, but nobody wants it in their yard. So it's, it's always, you know, a catch 22 trying to explain that to people. So that's key number three is actually it's good for the customer base. Because imagine that the end the consumer is reducing his bill at the end. So you're gonna say, Well, yeah, of course, he's reducing his power. But there's ways that we're programming this where you can pre-heat your house couple of hours before the peak dining, and then it goes through the peak, and it helps up everything. And that peak is very expensive, like for all the reasons we were saying earlier, so this is win win win. And this is something that we want to push towards, in terms of investment. Going forward, obviously, we have we've built our first solar park, so we have two solar parks that we started, Wind is becoming also very competitive. So but wind and solar is for energy, not for power, then people don't always make the difference between the energy and power. So energy is the consumption you have every every second that you're going but the power is when everybody gets home at five o'clock and puts everything on that then put all the breakers on then the consuming everything spikes. So this we have the sustain not only the energy that goes with the power that goes in, and that's that's where HILO is gonna is going to be a key into making making the future and we have very interesting projects coming with HILO and so now we started With thermostat for example, we're but we're coming with, with other stuff that we've built in our house. And Sherwinagan, that's going to change the way of the building. And if we can change the way of consuming the electricity.
Dan Seguin 30:11
Let's move on to the next question. hydro Quebec's road towards reconciliation has involved economic inclusion of the First Nations, and the creation of opportunities for current and future generations. wondering if you could talk to us about the importance of that relationship. And the 200 megawatt wind farm to be built in Quebec, Cote Nord region.
David Murray 30:39
Yeah, so obviously, working together with the communities is key. And we've been doing so for for many, many years. So we've done many projects throughout the Quebec province. So this is not new we have, you know, over 40 programe, that we over the last decades that we've signed up with the, with the different communities. So this is not new for us, and is the same thing for the 200 megawatts on Cote Nord all up with project. So obviously, as we see, there's going to be a need for energy and power going forward. So these are very important projects that we we are pushing, pushing through and working with the communities on a day to day basis is certainly a key aspect to make it work. And we've done so on this projects. And you can see that the now we're we're we're ready to install the then the wind farm and to have the energy produced for us. So this is key for us.
Dan Seguin 31:40
As stated earlier, David, we are in the midst of an energy transition. It encompasses transformation in power generation, transmission and distribution, as well as energy consumption habits worldwide. How is Hydro Quebec planning to seize growth opportunities in the province and beyond Canada's borders, like the power agreement in Massachusetts? What is again, the ultimate goal and vision?
David Murray 32:10
So when we started the plan a couple years ago, we had surpluses, you know, in the, in all the dams that we had, and we had the Romaine, the four dams in the Romaine river that was being built, and which was 1500 megawatts, obviously, when when we started if you go back couple years ago, we were seeing a huge growth in Quebec. This is why we had to build Romaine and that growth income as as timely as as we're expecting. So it gave us an opportunity to use that electricity and to share it with with our neighbors, which was we've done year over year, we're exporting about roughly 30 kilowatt hour of electricity, which is quite significant. And this is something that we're doing to you know, New Brunswick, Ontario, obviously, all the different states around us and north northeast. So this is this is key. So for us, it's great opportunity, it brings back money, you know, in the Quebec province obviously, but it also helps the different states and provinces to reduce their GHG emissions. So for us, this is quite an important deal for us as it It reduces our surplus brings back money, so it's good for the balance, commercial balance and the Quebec province and contributes to helping the government in terms of profitability, and this is money that goes back into the Quebec province. So these are projects that are key and in in making the GHG emission and bringing good profitability for the Quebec province. So very, very important for us.
Dan Seguin 33:49
Moving on, what role does energy storage play in your deployment and supply of renewable energy?
David Murray 33:58
Yeah, energy storage is is also very exciting. So we're talking about the Innovation Development so we've been working on a battery for the past couple years, I would say a mega watt hour battery so large size battery I would say if you can have an image it's like a container size that goes on a truck or so and these batteries are going to become so important. Because again, when you place these batteries at the right place in network, reduce congestion and it pushes the same logic, it pushes some investments that you need to do second aspect it's sometimes you have reserves on mine and you can remove that reserve also with with the battery, so batteries will become an important tool I would say as much as a transformer, for example, our power line so become the base into the grid of the future or the design grid of the future and So we have our own battery, which is as it's a, its own recipe, which we believe is safer than any battery that can exist, where it's so safe in our mind that we will actually put it on the roof of Hydro Quebec, in early 2022 you know, with solar panels and capture electricity, and you're never going to see this, if you go on the field, and you see these batteries that are existing, they're huge with, like, 4 backup systems, and so many protections, and you know, it's very heavy and very costly. So for us, we believe that our technology is going to become more and more present, because of its particularity of being safe. So it will be key. And you can see now, you know, all the vendors going out on the market. I mean, there's a there are a lot now asking for storage applications of which we've launched this is why we've launched another sub company. So we have a few but it's called EVLO. And this is a, this is actually a sub company that we want to use for our own network. So we've already deployed some in the on the Quebec network. But we've also won our first contract outside now. So we were installing as we speak in France right now, I would interject as a partner, so this is going to become bigger and bigger for us.
Dan Seguin 36:29
Okay, I'm wondering if you could now expand on opportunities and or challenges the pandemic brought to the forefront for Hydro Quebec? Has there been an impact on export and growth or any other surprises?
David Murray 36:47
Yeah, obviously, we had, like, everybody, it was a tough year. And we, we've, we've faced some reductions of volume, because obviously, when companies, you know, are stopping their production and everything, there is an impact. So we've seen a slight reduction on the company side and industrial side, they would say, residential will ramp up, obviously, because everybody's working from home so it transferred, but it's not the same so, they had an impact on, you know, bad credit, like any company, so we've done, it's roughly $90 million of impact that we had. So you know, people are having a hard time to pay their bills and everything. So we were present to try to help on that aspect. So we had to look at payment terms, also, we help them, you know, helping out payment terms, and we will also reduce our payment terms on our side. So, you know, to bring cash faster to the other company. So with the cash to cash cycle is a bit longer, but it was good for everybody. So we've done it for the community and different companies, and the different people in the Quebec province. The opportunities? Well, we've looked at the you know, resilience and be more independent with with more and more important on the greenhouse production, I would say. So this is where when we launched an initiative to reduce the rates on on greenhouse production in Quebec province, so the which is great. So we give a big, big reduction for people to produce, you know, local vegetables and fruits, which was, which was actually key. This is an example of, you know, decision that we've looked at to help out. And the other aspect, I would say, is for different projects that we're having, so for example, we've announced a major revamp of our dams, for example, and we re-questioned the bids that we had, and we have some other major suppliers to say, give it to give us different options, and what would be the cost if they would do for example, engineering in Quebec, instead of instead of being done outside outside the country. And we've made some changes in some some of the plans that we have based on that, either it was, you know, some engineering was done in Quebec or in Canada, then it was it was a better deal for us at the time to stimulate and give more work and towards the Quebec and Canada. And in terms of selection. So this is like the stuff that we've done. And now it creates a, you know, different mindset internally. And obviously we have we still have the same tendency to look into the different projects as we speak.
Dan Seguin 39:30
In addition to seizing growth opportunities in Quebec and beyond, increasing exports and introducing energy efficiency initiatives like HILO, Hydro Quebec, residential rates are the lowest in North America. And business rates are always ranking among the most competitive on the continent. How have you successfully struck this balance?
David Murray 39:55
Well, the balance obviously we've looked, again, the base that was done In the last couple of years was asked to carry. So finding the ways to keep the rates as low as possible is, is something internally that we're making a large focus has been a lot of changes that happened in Hydro Quebec and the last couple of years. So sometimes, I mean, I always say that there's two major transition at Hydro Quebec that we live right now. The first one is the energy transition, the second one is within Hydro Quebec's wall. So all the synergy that has been done in the efficiency that has been done, bringing lean thinking in the way we're doing business. So, you know, we have over 2600 cells of lean right now a cell would be, you know, employing employees, with their, with their managers and up in the office. So, where we have stand up meetings, and we have six pillars, and we're looking at, you know, health and safety and productivity and employee in ward issues and raising issues to the next level, if it's not done and bring it back in the next day. So a lot of work that has been done, and we can't keep take that for granted. And, but it's been, it's been a huge transformation that happened. And this, this has made the significant changes and helping out in keeping our rates down. So year over year, you know, you're facing up salary increase, you're facing up, you know, material buy purchasing increase. So you have to balance this out. And this is our way to to do to do differently. And the second thing is innovation, obviously, still trying new ways, you know, where we were talking about drones and all these technologies, obviously, they're they're helping out in making that bounce. And for us, it's, it's very important that we keep these rates down, we're happy. We're proud, and we want to, we want to keep it this way. So it's good for people in Quebec, it's bringing opportunities for businesses to come and install themselves in Quebec for not only the rate but also because it's green. So we have more and more demand, for example, data centers, for example. So these are great opportunities for Quebec, and it creates at the same time, important, you know, very good job in technology. So this is something that we, we push and we want to keep going.
Dan Seguin 42:15
Okay. Finally, the rise in digital technologies has brought sweeping changes in how we all live. As we know, Millennials are now North America's largest cohort. They have now overtaken boomers as the largest population group in North America. These digital natives grew up with chatbots, smart speakers and smartphones. With that in mind, how has Hydro Quebec engaged with this generation? Where do you see the greatest opportunities for Hydro Quebec?
David Murray 42:50
Yeah, it's a major shift. And I live it at home to, so I have a millennials and I have a younger generation pushing. So she calls me that the boomer, I keep telling, I'm not a boomer, but I guess I'm acting like a boomer, I don't know. But I guess it is important to, to think differently, and to bring them on board, without forgetting the base without forgetting what the boomer, our generation is done fast, I think, you know, it's an evolution. And there's nothing good or bad, it's always the mixture of things that makes it better. But obviously, we have to think differently, because it's a different, you know, technology is all over the place, whether the younger generation, so there's been a lot of changes in to our communication team. This team is quite amazing. Keeping connection, through media, web, you name it, Facebook, and all these new software that see that that's where my daughter's gonna say, I'm an old generation, because I named Facebook and Facebook is not for us, but it is what it is Snapchat and all this stuff. But so we've done a lot to keep the connections. Our social media team is actually amazing. So we've done quite an impression, sometimes answering some of the questions answering some of the tough questions were sometimes being criticized, but bringing a twist, which is attracting the younger generation and we're getting more and more popular and in some of these tweaks that's happening on the web. So we've had it also added two youtubers into our company. So two guys trying to explain to the younger generation, you know, how electricity works and I was saying about connecting the old and the future. It is important because nobody really understands how electricity is produced. They just put the switch on and you know, they believe it's happening from from the sky, I guess. So, you know, to make them remember that the how This was built in the past sort of pioneers has provided us that luxury that we have here in Quebec. So this is, this is actually very, very interesting to see and having these young guys through YouTube, explain to them, you know, how it works and how electricity is produced so to bring the connection between the the old world and the New World, I would say that. And the rest, like I was saying, bringing them together with the social, we have over 20 social media accounts that the team is working on, and trying to connect the new generation and we have them in-house as they're coming in house in DC, what's going on there, they're helping out the old, older generation like me to connect with the younger generation and obviously, pushes the boundaries. And it's great, because they're also pushing us into different direction, which is, which is key because at the end, you know, they want to come and work for a company that's innovative. And that's, you know, to the level of what they're expecting this we have to we have to adapt.
Dan Seguin 46:00
Okay, David, are you ready to close us off with some rapid fire questions?
David Murray 46:07
Anything - That's good.
Dan Seguin 46:09
What is your favorite word?
David Murray 46:12
efficiency.
Dan Seguin 46:13
What is your ideal electric vision for Hydro Quebec's future?
David Murray 46:20
Electric vision is also is everything that's energy transition. IoT, behind the meters efficient energy efficiency, I would say,
Dan Seguin 46:30
what is the one thing you can't live without?
David Murray 46:34
My phone
Dan Seguin 46:35
What habit or hobby? Have you picked up during a shelter in place?
David Murray 46:41
You know, this is quite interesting. I guess the older generation. Two things. Number one is vinyl record. So I don't know for reasons I started to go back on vinyl. And so and once in a while a good old way of going too easy. Now, you know, it just click and it comes from the cloud. But just to get up and and put the vinyl and you know, after like five minutes, it's done. You got to stand up and go, but I guess it's my old age can kick in. So that's number one. And number two is actually, you know, tastes from the past. So my, my spouse was asking me what I wanted for Christmas. And I said I want a Atari 2600. And she said what? You mean? You mean the PlayStation five? Right? I said no, no, I want Atari 2600. She's where the hell do I buy this? Five? No, it just was just fine. And she did. So now just going back in time. And so I don't know. I guess pandemic has brought us back to our roots and to the some of the basics so I don't know, must make me feel comfortable to play pitfall I guess during Christmas, I'll have never played since but it's okay. I have it if I want to play it. And it's mine told everybody Don't touch it. Don't break it.
Dan Seguin 48:03
Now, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
David Murray 48:10
Fly? I guess it goes faster. The typical, you know, I've asked that question. Everybody breaks, it breaks, it breaks the mold. And by saying I want to cure all illness. And then nobody else can speak after that. So that would be probably the political answer. But fly is my answer.
Dan Seguin 48:24
And David, if you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?
David Murray 48:32
Don't change anything. Just don't change anything.
Dan Seguin 48:38
And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting about public life?
David Murray 48:46
Most Interesting? I'll be honest, like and public life is actually sometimes the difficulty of media I would say. So. You know, I took it back is like 13 times in the papers every day, and sometimes not the way for for for other reasons than good reasons. I would say not all the time. But it's a I would say that's probably the thing that's after five years in the industry when you coming from a private company. You're coming public, obviously, you know what, well, I didn't know what to expect. Everybody told me, but it is what it is. And it's, it's okay. I mean, it's part of it's part of the business.
Dan Seguin 49:26
Well, David, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today and I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers, my friend. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.
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