Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

What Can My Husband Do To Make Help Me Trust Him Again? — **What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story** Mar 04, 2025
Women who have discovered their husband’s lies often wonder, “What if I can never trust my husband again?”

The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again

Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again

**Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly.

**Shelly:** Hi, thank you.

**Anne:** So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning.

**Shelly:** Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma.

And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child.

And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim.

Teenage Trauma & Abuse

**Shelly:** He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them.

He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else.

I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this.

**Anne:** Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online?

**Shelly:** I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now.

Grooming & Exploitation

**Shelly**: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive.

**Anne:** Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose.

**Shelly:** A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry.

**Shelly:** Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away.

**Anne:** He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle.

**Anne:** The exploitation business.

**Shelly:** Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them.

Finding Safety & New Relationships

**Shelly:** You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again.

**Anne:** I’m so sorry. That sounds awful.

**Shelly:** Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot.

He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past.

**Anne:** Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you?

**Shelly:** Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number.

My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew.

He Tells So Many Lies

**Shelly:** When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to.

He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together.

I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom.

He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that.

I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma. My whole world was falling apart.

My Friend Becomes My Partner

**Shelly:** That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker.

He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that.

Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story.

I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships.

Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal

**Shelly:** So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person.

**Anne:** I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it.

**Shelly:** Yes, exactly,

**Anne:** I found you.

**Shelly:** Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day.

https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ

I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own.

Realizing The Extent Of The Lies

**Shelly:** I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated.

So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it.

**Anne:** Yeah, you have a superpower.

**Shelly:** Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly.

**Anne:** Was that a relief to you in some ways?

**Shelly:** I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword.

**Anne:** At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work?

**Shelly:** It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate.

The Pain Of Gaslighting

**Shelly:** I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work.

**Anne:** What an amazing gift…

**Shelly:** Yeah,

**Anne:** …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy?

**Shelly:** Exactly.

Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me.

**Anne:** That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe.

**Shelly:** No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine.

**Anne:** And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level.

Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information

**Shelly:** Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again.

**Anne:** Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us.

**Shelly:** Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now.

**Anne:** So it’s been a year since he told you.

Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed.

Seeking The Truth

**Anne:** Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen?

**Shelly:** No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that.

The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it.

So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story.

And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again.

He Gives A Full Disclosure

**Shelly:** It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic.

**Anne:** Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that?

**Shelly:** I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse.

**Anne:** So how are you feeling now?

**Shelly:** Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking.

So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff.

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts

**Shelly:** So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore.

**Anne:** On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you.

But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on?

**Shelly:** Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in.

**Anne:** So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use?

**Shelly:** Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years.

**Anne:** Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that.

Why Disclose Now?

**Anne:** In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it.

When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. And then also just tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me.

And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now?

**Shelly:** So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go.

I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this?

Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change

**Shelly:** So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me.

Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine.

He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay.

And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again?

**Anne:** Yeah, that is good.

Challenges In Counseling

**Anne:** I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky.

**Shelly:** I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem?

**Anne:** You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah.

**Shelly:** Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.

I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again.

And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route.

Validation & Healing

**Shelly:** We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now.

But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together.

**Anne:** Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story?

**Shelly:** I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma, and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously.

It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard.

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community

**Anne:** As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again.

**Shelly:** And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do?

**Shelly:** I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice.

**Anne:** And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you.

Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again

**Shelly:** Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again.

**Anne:** I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive.

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him?

So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now.

Reflections On Change & Trust

**Anne:** Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year.

I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again.

**Shelly:** Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah.

**Anne:** Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch.

**Shelly:** Yeah, I will do, thank you.

**What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story** Mar 04, 2025
Women who have discovered their husband’s lies often wonder, “What if I can never trust my husband again?”

The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again

Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again

**Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly.

**Shelly:** Hi, thank you.

**Anne:** So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning.

**Shelly:** Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma.

And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child.

And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim.

Teenage Trauma & Abuse

**Shelly:** He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them.

He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else.

I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this.

**Anne:** Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online?

**Shelly:** I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now.

Grooming & Exploitation

**Shelly**: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive.

**Anne:** Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose.

**Shelly:** A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry.

**Shelly:** Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away.

**Anne:** He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle.

**Anne:** The exploitation business.

**Shelly:** Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them.

Finding Safety & New Relationships

**Shelly:** You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again.

**Anne:** I’m so sorry. That sounds awful.

**Shelly:** Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot.

He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past.

**Anne:** Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you?

**Shelly:** Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number.

My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew.

He Tells So Many Lies

**Shelly:** When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to.

He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together.

I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom.

He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that.

I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma. My whole world was falling apart.

My Friend Becomes My Partner

**Shelly:** That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker.

He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that.

Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story.

I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships.

Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal

**Shelly:** So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person.

**Anne:** I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it.

**Shelly:** Yes, exactly,

**Anne:** I found you.

**Shelly:** Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day.

https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ

I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own.

Realizing The Extent Of The Lies

**Shelly:** I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated.

So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it.

**Anne:** Yeah, you have a superpower.

**Shelly:** Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly.

**Anne:** Was that a relief to you in some ways?

**Shelly:** I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword.

**Anne:** At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work?

**Shelly:** It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate.

The Pain Of Gaslighting

**Shelly:** I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work.

**Anne:** What an amazing gift…

**Shelly:** Yeah,

**Anne:** …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy?

**Shelly:** Exactly.

Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me.

**Anne:** That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe.

**Shelly:** No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine.

**Anne:** And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level.

Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information

**Shelly:** Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again.

**Anne:** Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us.

**Shelly:** Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now.

**Anne:** So it’s been a year since he told you.

Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed.

Seeking The Truth

**Anne:** Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen?

**Shelly:** No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that.

The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it.

So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story.

And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again.

He Gives A Full Disclosure

**Shelly:** It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic.

**Anne:** Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that?

**Shelly:** I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse.

**Anne:** So how are you feeling now?

**Shelly:** Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking.

So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff.

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts

**Shelly:** So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore.

**Anne:** On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you.

But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on?

**Shelly:** Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in.

**Anne:** So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use?

**Shelly:** Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years.

**Anne:** Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that.

Why Disclose Now?

**Anne:** In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it.

When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. And then also just tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me.

And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now?

**Shelly:** So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go.

I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this?

Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change

**Shelly:** So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me.

Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine.

He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay.

And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again?

**Anne:** Yeah, that is good.

Challenges In Counseling

**Anne:** I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky.

**Shelly:** I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem?

**Anne:** You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah.

**Shelly:** Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.

I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again.

And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route.

Validation & Healing

**Shelly:** We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now.

But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together.

**Anne:** Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story?

**Shelly:** I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma, and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously.

It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard.

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community

**Anne:** As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again.

**Shelly:** And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do?

**Shelly:** I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice.

**Anne:** And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you.

Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again

**Shelly:** Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again.

**Anne:** I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive.

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him?

So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that.

**Shelly:** Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now.

Reflections On Change & Trust

**Anne:** Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year.

I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again.

**Shelly:** Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah.

**Anne:** Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch.

**Shelly:** Yeah, I will do, thank you.

Emotional Betrayal Trauma In Marriage - When I'm Not Feeling Better — **Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better – Nikki’s Story** Feb 25, 2025
Victims of betrayal trauma in marriage need a safe place to share their stories, ask questions, and receive support. Too many women spend months, years, even decades isolated in their trauma. Or get help from therapists who don’t understand this type of emotional and psychological abuse.

To discover if the betrayal trauma you’ve experienced includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When His Years of Betrayal In Marriage Harms You

For years, Nikki’s husband betrayed her with his infidelity and consistent emotional abuse. Like many abusers, Nikki’s husband conditioned her to feel ashamed for needing help with betrayal trauma in marriage.

An integral part of building a foundation of safety and peace is education about what betrayal trauma in marriage really means.

Attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session is essential, because victims can ask questions and get truthful and healthy answers. Victims can also process their betrayal without judgment, and learn to protect themselves from harm.

Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

**Nikki:** Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there.

And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess.

So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in my marrriage.

**Anne:** And try to protect your marriage, right?

**Nikki:** Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone.

Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education

**Anne:** Where do you live in Australia?

**Nikki:** I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania.

**Anne:** Okay, how do you feel like the support is there?

**Nikki:** None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage.

**Anne:** Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve?

**Nikki:** Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing.

**Anne:** So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too?

**Nikki:** I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage.

Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving?

**Nikki:** Probably about 20 years ago.

**Anne:** And how long have you been married?

**Nikki:** We’ve been married about 27 years.

**Anne:** Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that?

**Nikki:** I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me.

**Anne:** And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then.

**Nikki:** No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive.

**Anne:** Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion to understand the reality of their situation.

**Nikki:** Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it.

And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself. Sometimes it’s about time. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is.

Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery

**Anne:** There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma.

**Nikki:** I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time.

**Anne:** What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook?

**Nikki:** I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life.

**Anne:** So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, can you tell us about your experience?

Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Nikki:** Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing.

**Anne:** Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed.

Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion.

**Nikki:** Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world.

Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health

**Nikki:** And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating.

**Anne:** I can imagine. How old are you now?

**Nikki:** I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum.

**Anne:** He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus?

**Nikki:** I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation.

And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them.

**Anne:** That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him.

Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery

**Nikki:** I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work.

It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that.

And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense.

https://youtu.be/zvoACFsCOTE

**Anne:** It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry.

Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships

**Anne:** You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point?

**Nikki:** I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay?

**Anne:** We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately.

Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing.

And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making?

Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion

**Nikki:** Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need.

Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around.

So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision.

**Anne:** People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second.

**Nikki:** Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it?

**Anne:** It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem.

**Nikki:** You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him.

**Anne:** So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors.

Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life

**Anne:** How do you feel right now?

**Nikki:** Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse.

He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths.

Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life.

**Anne:** Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future?

**Nikki:** I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children.

There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma

**Nikki:** They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him.

**Anne:** Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right?

There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem.

What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time.

**Nikki:** Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you.

Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though.

Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma

**Nikki:** And don’t try and fix him.

**Anne:** Oh, we’ve all done that.

**Nikki:** Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore.

**Anne:** When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it.

**Nikki:** Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants?

It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family.

**Anne:** Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement.

**Nikki:** Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off.

**Anne:** Exactly.

When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group

**Anne:** Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful?

**Nikki:** For me, in the early stages and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at.

**Anne:** That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal.

**Nikki:** To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that.

It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all.

There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group.

**Nikki:** Thank you, Anne.

Overcoming The Betrayal Trauma In Marriage — **Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better – Nikki’s Story** Feb 25, 2025
Victims of betrayal trauma in marriage need a safe place to share their stories, ask questions, and receive support. Too many women spend months, years, even decades isolated in their trauma. Or get help from therapists who don’t understand this type of emotional and psychological abuse.

To discover if the betrayal trauma you’ve experienced includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When His Years of Betrayal In Marriage Harms You

For years, Nikki’s husband betrayed her with his infidelity and consistent emotional abuse. Like many abusers, Nikki’s husband conditioned her to feel ashamed for needing help with betrayal trauma in marriage.

An integral part of building a foundation of safety and peace is education about what betrayal trauma in marriage really means.

Attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session is essential, because victims can ask questions and get truthful and healthy answers. Victims can also process their betrayal without judgment, and learn to protect themselves from harm.

Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

**Nikki:** Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there.

And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess.

So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in my marrriage.

**Anne:** And try to protect your marriage, right?

**Nikki:** Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone.

Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education

**Anne:** Where do you live in Australia?

**Nikki:** I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania.

**Anne:** Okay, how do you feel like the support is there?

**Nikki:** None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage.

**Anne:** Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve?

**Nikki:** Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing.

**Anne:** So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too?

**Nikki:** I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage.

Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving?

**Nikki:** Probably about 20 years ago.

**Anne:** And how long have you been married?

**Nikki:** We’ve been married about 27 years.

**Anne:** Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that?

**Nikki:** I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me.

**Anne:** And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then.

**Nikki:** No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive.

**Anne:** Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion to understand the reality of their situation.

**Nikki:** Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it.

And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself. Sometimes it’s about time. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is.

Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery

**Anne:** There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma.

**Nikki:** I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time.

**Anne:** What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook?

**Nikki:** I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life.

**Anne:** So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, can you tell us about your experience?

Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Nikki:** Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing.

**Anne:** Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed.

Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion.

**Nikki:** Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world.

Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health

**Nikki:** And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating.

**Anne:** I can imagine. How old are you now?

**Nikki:** I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum.

**Anne:** He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus?

**Nikki:** I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation.

And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them.

**Anne:** That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him.

Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery

**Nikki:** I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work.

It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that.

And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense.

https://youtu.be/zvoACFsCOTE

**Anne:** It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry.

Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships

**Anne:** You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point?

**Nikki:** I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay?

**Anne:** We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately.

Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing.

And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making?

Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion

**Nikki:** Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need.

Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around.

So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision.

**Anne:** People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second.

**Nikki:** Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it?

**Anne:** It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem.

**Nikki:** You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him.

**Anne:** So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors.

Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life

**Anne:** How do you feel right now?

**Nikki:** Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse.

He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths.

Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life.

**Anne:** Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future?

**Nikki:** I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children.

There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma

**Nikki:** They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him.

**Anne:** Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right?

There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem.

What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time.

**Nikki:** Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you.

Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though.

Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma

**Nikki:** And don’t try and fix him.

**Anne:** Oh, we’ve all done that.

**Nikki:** Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore.

**Anne:** When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it.

**Nikki:** Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants?

It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family.

**Anne:** Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement.

**Nikki:** Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off.

**Anne:** Exactly.

When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group

**Anne:** Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful?

**Nikki:** For me, in the early stages and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at.

**Anne:** That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal.

**Nikki:** To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that.

It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all.

There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

**Anne:** Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group.

**Nikki:** Thank you, Anne.

Help For Victims Of Abuse — **Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? with Nicole Bedera** Feb 18, 2025
Many victims of emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse say they experienced even more trauma when they tried to get help. Where can someone who is being abused get help? Here’s what you need to know.

Author Nicole Bedera talks about what typically happens when abuse victims try to get help. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Transcript: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Anne:** I have Dr. Nicole Badera on today’s episode. She’s a sociologist and author of the book, *On the Wrong Side*, how universities protect perpetrators and betray survivors of sexual violence. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivors trauma and make this kind violence more likely to occur in the future. Nicole puts her work into practice as an affiliated educator at the Center for Institutional Courage. Welcome, Nicole.

**Nicole:** Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

**Anne:** I am so grateful to have you on. You do fascinating work. Especially because you focus on what happens after. And that is something that listeners to this podcast are all dealing with. Where can someone who is being abused get help? They’ve found they have been a victim of coercion. Husbands don’t tell my listeners all the information they need most of the time. Their husband actually purposefully kept it from them.

For example, they didn’t know that their husband solicited prostitutes, or was having an affair. Or something outside their boundaries, which is extremely traumatic. And people don’t view this as an actual act of emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t see it as coercion.

**Nicole:** I did my research a little differently than other people in the past. Many people focus on going to the police or workplace. I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report most of the time to a Title IX office. You might have heard about it in the news. It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years. New has quieted down quite a bit recently. And a Title IX office is a little different from those other places. We can get into that if you’re curious.

Inside The Title IX Office

**Nicole:** In terms of what I did, I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, the perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. I found participants trying to come forward after abuse for help in that setting that way.

All knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot.

Women have been especially made to feel a lot of this stuff is just normal. There’s this idea that this is exactly what you should expect when you go to college, or in a marriage. And so there were some who weren’t sure what was going on. But they knew that something had affected usually their education, or they felt unsafe and unsettled. They were looking for help after abuse? And they ended up in my study.

They went to their school for help for abuse either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus can help survivors with whatever they need. But many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. They’re trying to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that.

Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to seek some kind of safety or justice. So that’s who we’re talking about in the particular book.

Challenges In Reporting

**Nicole:** But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve tried to report or consider going to for help.

**Anne:** When a woman has a situation where she needs help from abuse, but she doesn’t quite know where to go. It’s so heartbreaking for me, as I see this with wives trying to figure it out. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery or something along those lines. Trying to figure out how to start to feel safe again in my marriage?

When you’re talking about on a college campus, they’re thinking how to feel safe again on campus. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? For institutions or organizations, they’re having a hard time figuring this out. What do you mean she feels unsafe? What should we do about it?

**Nicole:** There are a few issues that we encounter when victims are trying to decide where to report. One of them is that many systems that we think will help won’t help. Administrators tell students to go to the Title IX office for help. If they experience violence, harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with.

Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator? Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help, if the school would. Which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way.

Classroom Trauma: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Nicole:** And that’s the same issue that comes up if you go to the police, or to a couples therapist. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have experienced coming in for something tangible for yourself, right? So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you. And that the class will discuss violence as a topic.

So this just feels completely impossible for you to be able to be safe in this environment because it’s going to be reminding you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind are responding to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had.

**Anne:** And the trauma you continue to experience, because the likelihood of him gaslighting you, continuing to emotionally and psychologically abuse you through this whole thing is like off the charts.

**Nicole:** It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator, you and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class, right? So you’re right. Often this is a site of continued violence, where the perpetrator might disparage the victim. Might go and tell lies about what happened in their past to avoid accountability.

You’re right. This is a place where more violence can take place. And so a victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? Where can someone who is being abused get help?

Systemic Issues In Universities

**Nicole:** I just want this person out of my class. I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? I don’t want to be unsafe. Most people say that’s a reasonable set of requests. To say, you’ve already experienced a assault. That’s enough of a burden on its own. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too.

In our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim says, “This is what I need.” The entire system is focused on, but what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him? And is violence even involved? This is one of the stories I start the book with, because it’s so common. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it.

There is no version of a assault response in our society that can intervene on a perpetrator’s violence in two weeks. We don’t have a version of that right now. Victims experience so much harm by coming forward. Because at minimum, they tell you to wait. And at maximum, you will experience more trauma. They force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator.

Potentially violence could escalate. There could be retaliation. And our system doesn’t think about how to help abuse victims get help with that, because our systems primarily think about violence as something about the perpetrator. We have to decide what to do with the perpetrator.

Protective Orders & Legal Challenges

**Nicole:** They treat the victim as evidence, not as a person through these systems.

**Anne:** I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios, right? But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order. And he continues to violate the protective order, and she keeps calling it in. Then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. So he has like 27 protective order violations. But the prosecutor is like, Hmm, okay, should we like put them all together? I don’t want to prosecute him 27 times.

What will we do in the meantime? There’s no protection for her, as they’re trying to set the date for the hearing, and for a victim that in and of itself is triggering. I’m sure you’ll hear him talk about the date of the court hearing.

Rather than hear somebody say, I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore. That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension.

**Nicole:** A metaphor at the end of the book when I’m talking about creating a better system, about how our current system looks at a victim. And if we think of trauma as something physical. If we make a version where it’s not something that can’t be seen, but something we could see. The example I like to use is putting your hand on a hot stove.

https://youtube.com/shorts/f42gMRWCYd8

Metaphor Of The Hot Stove: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Nicole:** Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. If it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. Take your hand off the stove. Maybe you should leave the kitchen while we figure out what we want to do about this stove that’s burning people, right?

And a better system would say, well, let’s just turn off the stove. Okay, let’s turn off the stove. Let’s do it in a way, you know, we’re not going to break the stove. We need to turn it off, and we will take a minute to figure out what to do next. But we won’t tell the person who’s burned to keep burning while we decide what to do.

**Anne:** You nailed it. But this happens in marriages all the time, because number one, a couple’s therapist in general doesn’t identify the psychological and emotional abuse. She’s going for help, and doesn’t know she’s being abused. No one identifies the abuse.

And the professional she’s going to for help, clergy or any number of people because they don’t identify the stove is on. To use your metaphor. They say, something’s wrong with you. You experience the burn for no reason.

**Nicole:** Right, or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in many of these systems to say, well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something? So that would be a can in the same metaphor to say, well, why don’t we have the stove turned down the heat? a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining?

Power Inequities & Abuse

**Nicole:** And that doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense. One of the things I talk about in the book is how we have gotten comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims. As long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse occurs when there is a power inequity.

And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator. That will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse.

**Anne:** My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to either reporting or not reporting. Is that for me and many women who have been through it. Reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. So I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. So in my personal case, I had a protective order.

He had a guilty plea for domestic violence, and the criminal court said, do not talk to him, you have a protective order. But the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. My ex abused me for eight years post divorce. I have a protective order against him. I do not want to talk to him. But the civil court is forcing me to talk to him, like where can I get help? Because of my kids.

I didn’t report his abuse to have him put in jail. I needed medical treatment, and the doctor reported it.

Victims Just Want To Be Safe

**Anne:** I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases. The judge is like, well, I can’t take away custody, because then I’d call him an abuser. And then he’d go to prison.

Victims want to be safe. The safe parent, the mother, isn’t trying to have her ex thrown in jail in many of these civil cases especially with kids. She’s just trying to get help to ensure that her kids are safe and they don’t have to go with an abuser. And the same thing with the college thing, right?

You’re just asking that he doesn’t go to this class or maybe he transfers schools or something. I don’t know. Maybe you can talk about options. But for some reason, the justice system sees this as like, we’ve got to give him due process before we, and then they equate it to prison.

**Nicole:** That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history around campus violence and campus sexual violence organizing. Legislatures passed a law in 1972. That law said discrimination is illegal on college campuses. That receive federal funding.

And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. The law itself is a single sentence. The law about what’s included is unclear. There were a series of court cases to try to figure that out.

Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Title IX History & Legal Context

**Nicole:** One of them was in 1980, Alexander vs. Yale, if you’re feeling industrious and want to look it up. And that was the first court case that said violence should be illegal on a college campus. That it should be something that schools should do something about. They should have their own internal proceedings to manage it. The focus here wasn’t on sending people to jail. That’s what you should call the police for, if that’s what you wanted.

It is specifically for scenarios where perpetrators impacted victims’ education by their assaults. Or intimate partner violence, or stalking, or whatever they were experiencing. The Department of Education argued that schools need to do something. To ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school.

Including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus, let’s say he’s a professor. Let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide favors. Which is what that 1980 court case was about. Title IX requires removal of the perpetrator from campus. Because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. And the issue was that schools just didn’t do it.

Every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention. Until the Obama administration.

**Anne:** Was part of their justification for not doing their job, well, if it was bad enough, she’d call the police?

Misconceptions About Campus Violence

**Nicole:** People said this in the past. Or they said this isn’t a problem on our campus. There was a similar thing, a study. It was just a survey by Inside Higher Ed in 2015. They asked university presidents at the time, do you think campus violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it.” Which isn’t true.

By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it. I’d just go somewhere else. We don’t want to handle this. This is a criminal act, not a civil act. But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized.

And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay. It said the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. They said exactly what you’re saying. Many of these Harvard Law professors don’t specialize in gender based violence, or even in criminal or civil law.

I mean, I guess that’s all the law. They were people who specialized in any type of law. Some of them probably did things like corporate law, who had absolutely no knowledge on this topic whatsoever.

Due Process Debate

**Nicole:** And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. And since then, we have started to see other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before.

If you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus before. You only had the right to know your accusations. And what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond. But there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it a hearing, some would, you know, they weren’t doing much of anything.

They would just give you a chance, and many people would say, you know what, I actually was plagiarizing, I don’t even need to participate in this, right? And so, this new idea that anything involving violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it. And we should, because the stakes are so different.

In the book, I call it Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster. Where when a victim says exactly like you’re describing. I need one thing. And sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people living in student housing on college campuses with children live in dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage where can I get help?

Where Can Abuse Victims Get Help For Their Kids

**Nicole:** My partner is sick, still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. There another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, saying exactly what you are. Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line. And some stories I heard during my time in the field were unreasonable.

I start the book with one of those stories. A guest speaker harassed a woman on campus. The guest speaker owns a company and is the CEO. He had been stalking and harassing her ever since he met her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again.

They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights. to this space. But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all these horrible things that could happen to him if they took into account the victim’s wishes. Which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again.

I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like he could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated. And it’s not true, because a lot of these proceedings are private.

Perpetrators’ Perspective

**Nicole:** And so any of the files that come from them, you can’t just hand them to the police, that’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They say, if you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person. We’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him? Himself? It doesn’t make sense. We should prioritize helping the abuse victim getting help.

**Anne:** Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist.

**Nicole:** I completely agree. I interviewed the perpetrators. That’s actually one of the strengths of my book. I think we can all see from examples in pop culture. You know, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example.

He made an entire comeback after struggling to find work in Hollywood. Because of his own behavior on set. Now all of a sudden, he gets this second chance. He’s a known perpetrator of domestic violence. He never refuted that, by the way, never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued she deserved it.

**Anne:** Which is insane.

**Nicole:** Right, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place of victim blaming first.

Results Of Perpetrator Interviews

**Nicole:** One of the things I found out for my book. There is all this concern about these accumulated fantasies of disaster. What can happen to perpetrators, and how bad it will be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings.

Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. That the victim’s behavior is constrained. The victim isn’t allowed to do X, Y, and Z. Or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, they’re forced to contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy.

**Anne:** Yeah, they like it.

**Nicole:** Yes!

**Anne:** Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a Strategy workshop. It’s called The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, and it helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves. We’re not enjoying it, the victims do not enjoy it, that’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, the perpetrators enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose.

**Nicole:** Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. One student was expelled for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. I want to say this is very standard. There’s been a lot of research about how schools handle violence in the past few years, and the average university expels one perpetrator every three years.

Expulsion & Perpetrator Protection: Helping Abuse Victims

**Nicole:** It is rare. I happened to be on campus that year, which is unusual. What that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator, this rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. By the time he was expelled, the Dean of Students helped facilitate his transfer to another university. It was close enough by, he didn’t even have to move apartments. They had slowed down the proceedings for two years.

Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable, but he didn’t graduate for many reasons I get into in the book. And instead, what that meant for the victim for those two years, she had to take a leave of absence. Because he was so violent and dangerous, she couldn’t safely be on campus.

And so they told her, the same thing we were talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. It’s the opposite of helping someone who is an abuse victim.

And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from the book and all these conversations. Is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator. Every time we say, I’m going to be fair to both people. I’m going to invite you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come. What you’re saying is the perpetrator will be here, and the victim won’t.

You’re not giving them anything possible. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair.

Perpetrator’s Continued Abuse

**Nicole:** It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. That’s actually what my literary agent called the book. Everything is backwards.

**Anne:** Yeah, the other issue people don’t recognize is that he will still be abusing her at that event. You know, I don’t care what it is. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, oh, she’s so crazy. That is abuse, and he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse, who is going to help. It’s not like this happened in the past. It’s happening right then.

**Nicole:** And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that is still a continuation of the abuse. I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. So instead, they say, he seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting. And that’s part of the plan too.

Grooming As Abuse

**Nicole:** One of the things I say about perpetrators is they don’t abuse everybody. And a big part of that abuse is showing that they can follow social norms and treat people appropriately outside of their victim. Ultimately, it still leads too often, in this case. To other people trying to control the victim, blaming them and questioning their legitimacy.

That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings, is they just come in and don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, Oh, he must be fine.

**Anne:** That is the abuse. That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that is the abuse. They don’t realize they’re being abused too, because he’s not being honest. He’s not doing anything overt, but he’s not coming in and saying, I did do this. This is the truth, right?

**Nicole:** That’s the only thing that would be not abusive, right? Would be if there was a shared reality that abuse occurred. That is the only thing that would be fair to a victim.

**Anne:** Yes, and it’s the only way abuse would not occur. You just said that, I just repeated you. Sorry, but yeah.

**Nicole:** That just makes me feel like it was a good point.

**Anne:** It was. It was worthy of repeating. It’s huge when you talk about institutional issues with this. The same thing happens with the courts with civil custody cases in the same way. And it’s so hard, because that’s just that part where you said she helped him transfer his stuff to the new school.

Institutional Betrayal: When They Refuse To Help Abuse Victims

**Anne:** No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping her.

**Nicole:** And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. There’s actually an academic concept that I introduced early in the book in the first few pages that I think would be helpful to your listeners. And it’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic.

One of the big focus points in the book. Is the victim’s experience of violence and trauma not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over?

Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. In studies, we find that survivors who experience institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a victim assaulted a second time.

It is an equal severity to that original act of violence, which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right. And for our friends and families to get this right too.

Hope For Better Support

**Nicole:** Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. I think it’s overwhelming to think. Wow, I thought the worst was over. I actually could encounter something just as bad when I seek help. This is overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims.

I come out hopeful, from the place where survivors who seek it get help. They have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. That’s got to be our goal here. It’s to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to.

And oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing, because the stakes are high. And we could help many people.

**Anne:** Just talking with the victims I talk with daily. My eye twitches when they are not helped by the police, the civil court system, their clergy or couple therapists. This is overwhelming and scary. We do have to speak out and take some action, which is what we don’t want to do, which is what this podcast is about. Like oh, why are we making victims do more, you know? It’s such a catch 22.

**Nicole:** I want to say one of the things about institutional betrayal too. And one of the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims. Is institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity, if we already have some distrust for the institution.

Anticipating Institutional Responses

**Nicole:** One of the key components is abuse victims going to get help and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to raise the bar actually,

**Anne:** Yeah, no, I get what you’re saying.

**Nicole:** Yeah, but to know what can happen.

**Anne:** That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. So instead of doing that, let’s do this other thing. If you are going to report this, this is likely what’s going to happen. And so instead of doing that, although you can report, but like know these things beforehand.

The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, everyone, there’s like: Call the national domestic violence hotline. And then call our state domestic violence hotline. And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that that’s not the solution at all.

In fact, one victim I know recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.

We’re going to interview you. So she told him, yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate. She told him the whole story. And she’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They like reviewed her case.

Abuse Victims Get Help From Confidential Community Support

**Anne:** They got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?

**Nicole:** Oh my.

**Anne:** So it was like a full circle. You know, the thing I think people think is to put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article. And the problem is solved. And if she doesn’t call that number, it’s her fault because she didn’t call the number.

**Nicole:** So I think one of the questions I get is, if many of these systems aren’t trustworthy. Where can they go to get help? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one or a rape crisis hotline. That is different than a domestic violence shelter. You want one that’s confidential, because a confidential service won’t call the police. They cannot be subpoenaed in a court of law.

So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. And so it’s step one. Obviously, that’s just a place to let you know what the options are and which ones other survivors think are the most trustworthy.

Things like that, but what I would say is make sure you’re going somewhere confidential, which will give you many options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. That’s a big part of why I wrote the book. I talk about campus violence. But I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose the trajectory of their cases. Victims lose their autonomy, and are re-traumatized.

Red Flags In Institutional Responses

**Nicole:** Things you can almost treat like red flags. So things like being told one thing will happen, but you didn’t get the full story. And actually now everything’s moving in a different direction. Things like seeing your case broken into a bunch of pieces, where people only want to focus on one tiny part of it. And then they ignore everything else. Lots of things like that, where you can see these institutional red flags.

And one of them is one of the ones we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when people conflate punishment and consequences, when people act as if there are natural consequences to violence. And when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences. I need help with consequences.” Victims are recast as punishing, and everything focuses on, but that could be bad for the perpetrator. That is one of the biggest red flags.

Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. You can’t just say, oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator. So it goes away. And that’s one of the ones to think about is that conflation between addressing the consequences that are unavoidable. That are just going to happen due to the action of violence, coercion, harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced.

And acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. That I would say is one of the biggest red flags and coming forward.

**Anne:** That’s really, really good.

Misogyny In Handling Cases

**Anne:** I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner, and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business. And the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court?” And then everyone around him told him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” And I’ve had people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, what I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.

**Nicole:** Yeah.

**Anne:** I think about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him. They can’t even talk about that, because they’re like, that would never happen.

**Nicole:** Right. It’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. And that’s, I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. One of the things I found in my work was that when the roles were on a title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents. That’s sort of the civil equivalent of like plaintiff. I guess there’s no version in a criminal trial where the victim is treated as a person and not evidence.

But you know, it’s the same as plaintiff and defendant, but in a Title IX context is complainant and respondent. So when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint, is where a real act of violence happened. The victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responds by filing a second complaint saying, actually, I’m the true victim.

Retaliatory Complaints: When You Go For Help And It Gets Worse

Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard. He doesn’t argue, no, there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is to muddle the narrative, confuse investigators, and intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint.

That’s what’s happening here. And then sometimes when we talk about cases like Depp vs. Heard, there is that benefit we already talked about. Which is that even if it is a second case, the perpetrator feels confident, nothing bad will happen to them. They can enjoy the forced contact with the victim. Who previously escaped him.

In cases of retaliatory complaints, I found the university didn’t care anymore about due process. That when women were in the role of the accused, they faced many consequences. A lot of, I would argue, punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them.

And it is a gender issue. It’s that when it’s a woman versus a man. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader. Because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little more shielded in something more, called empathy.

Empathy For Perpetrators

**Nicole:** So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. Men receive excessive empathy at the expense of women.

**Anne:** Hmm

**Nicole:** Yeah. It’s a great concept.

**Anne:** I’m liking this.

**Nicole:** It’s so good. That’s another book you should get. You should read *Entitled* by Cate Mann, it’s so good. But what this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, well, you know, abuse is horrible. The victim’s life is already ruined. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.

I want to make sure we do right by the perpetrator. People say it all the time. I have an entire chapter of the book about this. It’s truly unbelievable, if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. It’s treated as this righteous thing. If I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society, I must be a good person. There’s nothing worse than a perpetrator of abuse.

And so if I can empathize with that person, that means I’m the most empathetic person. And that means I’m the most moral person. That is what many people think, but it is totally backwards and it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Culture trains us to do that. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim, instead of treating the victim like evidence in the man’s story.

**Anne:** Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him.

Support For Survivors

**Anne:** And people are like, so offended.

**Nicole:** Yeah, people find it offensive.

**Anne:** And I’m like, why are you offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him?

**Nicole:** I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do. Something administrators would say is everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong.

So she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him. But the problem was everybody was doing that. And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way. To recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner.

Sometimes, her entire social group pushes the victim out. One of the things that’s so traumatic about violence is that a lot of people lose all their loved ones. They’re friends, many of their family, they might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator.

I put fair in big quotes here because none of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair.

**Anne:** There is no fairness.

**Nicole:** This makes me think of the next book I want to write.

Why Can’t Abuse Victims Ever Get Help?

**Nicole:** And so, you know, I’m putting the feelers out there if you know any publishers. The next book I want to write is something with a sort of working title of something like *The Responsibilities of Rapists*. Because I think when we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable. It’s really hard for people to imagine what that looks like for themselves. It’s hard to reinvent the wheel.

Most people are not experts on violence. But I do think at a bare minimum in our personal lives. When we know that we can’t trust many of these systems to help abuse victims. We have to handle this as individuals and communities. I think at the bare minimum, if we know that the main thing victims want is never to share space with their perpetrator again. That’s the number one thing victims say they want. At the bare minimum, I think we can ask that a perpetrator leaves a place where a victim is.

For the rest of their lives. That gives them the rest of the planet they can be in. And that one spot where the victim is should always be that space, because the trauma will leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we look at the perpetrator and say, well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?

That’s saying there’s a time limit for how long the victim can be traumatized. That’s not how it works.

Reasonable Consequences For Perpetrators

**Nicole:** And I think it’s reasonable to say, if you perpetrated a assault, the minimum of consequences is: If you see the victim in the grocery store, at your new job, you turn around, walk out, and go to a different grocery store. You get a different job. This is reasonable to ask for. If anything, it’s lenient. For an abuse victim looking, help seems impossible to find.

**Anne:** You are 100 percent well spoken and amazing. I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful that you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk to me today.

**Nicole:** Thank you so much for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today.

**Anne:** Thank you.

How To Get Help For Abuse — **Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? with Nicole Bedera** Feb 18, 2025
Many victims of emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse say they experienced even more trauma when they tried to get help. Where can someone who is being abused get help? Here’s what you need to know.

Author Nicole Bedera talks about what typically happens when abuse victims try to get help. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session.

If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Transcript: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Anne:** I have Dr. Nicole Badera on today’s episode. She’s a sociologist and author of the book, *On the Wrong Side*, how universities protect perpetrators and betray survivors of sexual violence. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivors trauma and make this kind violence more likely to occur in the future. Nicole puts her work into practice as an affiliated educator at the Center for Institutional Courage. Welcome, Nicole.

**Nicole:** Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

**Anne:** I am so grateful to have you on. You do fascinating work. Especially because you focus on what happens after. And that is something that listeners to this podcast are all dealing with. Where can someone who is being abused get help? They’ve found they have been a victim of coercion. Husbands don’t tell my listeners all the information they need most of the time. Their husband actually purposefully kept it from them.

For example, they didn’t know that their husband solicited prostitutes, or was having an affair. Or something outside their boundaries, which is extremely traumatic. And people don’t view this as an actual act of emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t see it as coercion.

**Nicole:** I did my research a little differently than other people in the past. Many people focus on going to the police or workplace. I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report most of the time to a Title IX office. You might have heard about it in the news. It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years. New has quieted down quite a bit recently. And a Title IX office is a little different from those other places. We can get into that if you’re curious.

Inside The Title IX Office

**Nicole:** In terms of what I did, I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, the perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. I found participants trying to come forward after abuse for help in that setting that way.

All knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot.

Women have been especially made to feel a lot of this stuff is just normal. There’s this idea that this is exactly what you should expect when you go to college, or in a marriage. And so there were some who weren’t sure what was going on. But they knew that something had affected usually their education, or they felt unsafe and unsettled. They were looking for help after abuse? And they ended up in my study.

They went to their school for help for abuse either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus can help survivors with whatever they need. But many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. They’re trying to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that.

Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to seek some kind of safety or justice. So that’s who we’re talking about in the particular book.

Challenges In Reporting

**Nicole:** But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve tried to report or consider going to for help.

**Anne:** When a woman has a situation where she needs help from abuse, but she doesn’t quite know where to go. It’s so heartbreaking for me, as I see this with wives trying to figure it out. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery or something along those lines. Trying to figure out how to start to feel safe again in my marriage?

When you’re talking about on a college campus, they’re thinking how to feel safe again on campus. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? For institutions or organizations, they’re having a hard time figuring this out. What do you mean she feels unsafe? What should we do about it?

**Nicole:** There are a few issues that we encounter when victims are trying to decide where to report. One of them is that many systems that we think will help won’t help. Administrators tell students to go to the Title IX office for help. If they experience violence, harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with.

Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator? Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help, if the school would. Which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way.

Classroom Trauma: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Nicole:** And that’s the same issue that comes up if you go to the police, or to a couples therapist. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have experienced coming in for something tangible for yourself, right? So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you. And that the class will discuss violence as a topic.

So this just feels completely impossible for you to be able to be safe in this environment because it’s going to be reminding you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind are responding to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had.

**Anne:** And the trauma you continue to experience, because the likelihood of him gaslighting you, continuing to emotionally and psychologically abuse you through this whole thing is like off the charts.

**Nicole:** It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator, you and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class, right? So you’re right. Often this is a site of continued violence, where the perpetrator might disparage the victim. Might go and tell lies about what happened in their past to avoid accountability.

You’re right. This is a place where more violence can take place. And so a victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? Where can someone who is being abused get help?

Systemic Issues In Universities

**Nicole:** I just want this person out of my class. I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? I don’t want to be unsafe. Most people say that’s a reasonable set of requests. To say, you’ve already experienced a assault. That’s enough of a burden on its own. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too.

In our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim says, “This is what I need.” The entire system is focused on, but what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him? And is violence even involved? This is one of the stories I start the book with, because it’s so common. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it.

There is no version of a assault response in our society that can intervene on a perpetrator’s violence in two weeks. We don’t have a version of that right now. Victims experience so much harm by coming forward. Because at minimum, they tell you to wait. And at maximum, you will experience more trauma. They force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator.

Potentially violence could escalate. There could be retaliation. And our system doesn’t think about how to help abuse victims get help with that, because our systems primarily think about violence as something about the perpetrator. We have to decide what to do with the perpetrator.

Protective Orders & Legal Challenges

**Nicole:** They treat the victim as evidence, not as a person through these systems.

**Anne:** I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios, right? But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order. And he continues to violate the protective order, and she keeps calling it in. Then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. So he has like 27 protective order violations. But the prosecutor is like, Hmm, okay, should we like put them all together? I don’t want to prosecute him 27 times.

What will we do in the meantime? There’s no protection for her, as they’re trying to set the date for the hearing, and for a victim that in and of itself is triggering. I’m sure you’ll hear him talk about the date of the court hearing.

Rather than hear somebody say, I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore. That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension.

**Nicole:** A metaphor at the end of the book when I’m talking about creating a better system, about how our current system looks at a victim. And if we think of trauma as something physical. If we make a version where it’s not something that can’t be seen, but something we could see. The example I like to use is putting your hand on a hot stove.

https://youtube.com/shorts/f42gMRWCYd8

Metaphor Of The Hot Stove: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

**Nicole:** Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. If it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. Take your hand off the stove. Maybe you should leave the kitchen while we figure out what we want to do about this stove that’s burning people, right?

And a better system would say, well, let’s just turn off the stove. Okay, let’s turn off the stove. Let’s do it in a way, you know, we’re not going to break the stove. We need to turn it off, and we will take a minute to figure out what to do next. But we won’t tell the person who’s burned to keep burning while we decide what to do.

**Anne:** You nailed it. But this happens in marriages all the time, because number one, a couple’s therapist in general doesn’t identify the psychological and emotional abuse. She’s going for help, and doesn’t know she’s being abused. No one identifies the abuse.

And the professional she’s going to for help, clergy or any number of people because they don’t identify the stove is on. To use your metaphor. They say, something’s wrong with you. You experience the burn for no reason.

**Nicole:** Right, or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in many of these systems to say, well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something? So that would be a can in the same metaphor to say, well, why don’t we have the stove turned down the heat? a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining?

Power Inequities & Abuse

**Nicole:** And that doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense. One of the things I talk about in the book is how we have gotten comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims. As long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse occurs when there is a power inequity.

And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator. That will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse.

**Anne:** My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to either reporting or not reporting. Is that for me and many women who have been through it. Reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. So I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. So in my personal case, I had a protective order.

He had a guilty plea for domestic violence, and the criminal court said, do not talk to him, you have a protective order. But the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. My ex abused me for eight years post divorce. I have a protective order against him. I do not want to talk to him. But the civil court is forcing me to talk to him, like where can I get help? Because of my kids.

I didn’t report his abuse to have him put in jail. I needed medical treatment, and the doctor reported it.

Victims Just Want To Be Safe

**Anne:** I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases. The judge is like, well, I can’t take away custody, because then I’d call him an abuser. And then he’d go to prison.

Victims want to be safe. The safe parent, the mother, isn’t trying to have her ex thrown in jail in many of these civil cases especially with kids. She’s just trying to get help to ensure that her kids are safe and they don’t have to go with an abuser. And the same thing with the college thing, right?

You’re just asking that he doesn’t go to this class or maybe he transfers schools or something. I don’t know. Maybe you can talk about options. But for some reason, the justice system sees this as like, we’ve got to give him due process before we, and then they equate it to prison.

**Nicole:** That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history around campus violence and campus sexual violence organizing. Legislatures passed a law in 1972. That law said discrimination is illegal on college campuses. That receive federal funding.

And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. The law itself is a single sentence. The law about what’s included is unclear. There were a series of court cases to try to figure that out.

Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Title IX History & Legal Context

**Nicole:** One of them was in 1980, Alexander vs. Yale, if you’re feeling industrious and want to look it up. And that was the first court case that said violence should be illegal on a college campus. That it should be something that schools should do something about. They should have their own internal proceedings to manage it. The focus here wasn’t on sending people to jail. That’s what you should call the police for, if that’s what you wanted.

It is specifically for scenarios where perpetrators impacted victims’ education by their assaults. Or intimate partner violence, or stalking, or whatever they were experiencing. The Department of Education argued that schools need to do something. To ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school.

Including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus, let’s say he’s a professor. Let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide favors. Which is what that 1980 court case was about. Title IX requires removal of the perpetrator from campus. Because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. And the issue was that schools just didn’t do it.

Every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention. Until the Obama administration.

**Anne:** Was part of their justification for not doing their job, well, if it was bad enough, she’d call the police?

Misconceptions About Campus Violence

**Nicole:** People said this in the past. Or they said this isn’t a problem on our campus. There was a similar thing, a study. It was just a survey by Inside Higher Ed in 2015. They asked university presidents at the time, do you think campus violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it.” Which isn’t true.

By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it. I’d just go somewhere else. We don’t want to handle this. This is a criminal act, not a civil act. But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized.

And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay. It said the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. They said exactly what you’re saying. Many of these Harvard Law professors don’t specialize in gender based violence, or even in criminal or civil law.

I mean, I guess that’s all the law. They were people who specialized in any type of law. Some of them probably did things like corporate law, who had absolutely no knowledge on this topic whatsoever.

Due Process Debate

**Nicole:** And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. And since then, we have started to see other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before.

If you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus before. You only had the right to know your accusations. And what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond. But there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it a hearing, some would, you know, they weren’t doing much of anything.

They would just give you a chance, and many people would say, you know what, I actually was plagiarizing, I don’t even need to participate in this, right? And so, this new idea that anything involving violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it. And we should, because the stakes are so different.

In the book, I call it Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster. Where when a victim says exactly like you’re describing. I need one thing. And sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people living in student housing on college campuses with children live in dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage where can I get help?

Where Can Abuse Victims Get Help For Their Kids

**Nicole:** My partner is sick, still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. There another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, saying exactly what you are. Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line. And some stories I heard during my time in the field were unreasonable.

I start the book with one of those stories. A guest speaker harassed a woman on campus. The guest speaker owns a company and is the CEO. He had been stalking and harassing her ever since he met her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again.

They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights. to this space. But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all these horrible things that could happen to him if they took into account the victim’s wishes. Which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again.

I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like he could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated. And it’s not true, because a lot of these proceedings are private.

Perpetrators’ Perspective

**Nicole:** And so any of the files that come from them, you can’t just hand them to the police, that’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They say, if you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person. We’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him? Himself? It doesn’t make sense. We should prioritize helping the abuse victim getting help.

**Anne:** Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist.

**Nicole:** I completely agree. I interviewed the perpetrators. That’s actually one of the strengths of my book. I think we can all see from examples in pop culture. You know, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example.

He made an entire comeback after struggling to find work in Hollywood. Because of his own behavior on set. Now all of a sudden, he gets this second chance. He’s a known perpetrator of domestic violence. He never refuted that, by the way, never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued she deserved it.

**Anne:** Which is insane.

**Nicole:** Right, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place of victim blaming first.

Results Of Perpetrator Interviews

**Nicole:** One of the things I found out for my book. There is all this concern about these accumulated fantasies of disaster. What can happen to perpetrators, and how bad it will be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings.

Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. That the victim’s behavior is constrained. The victim isn’t allowed to do X, Y, and Z. Or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, they’re forced to contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy.

**Anne:** Yeah, they like it.

**Nicole:** Yes!

**Anne:** Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a Strategy workshop. It’s called The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, and it helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves. We’re not enjoying it, the victims do not enjoy it, that’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, the perpetrators enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose.

**Nicole:** Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. One student was expelled for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. I want to say this is very standard. There’s been a lot of research about how schools handle violence in the past few years, and the average university expels one perpetrator every three years.

Expulsion & Perpetrator Protection: Helping Abuse Victims

**Nicole:** It is rare. I happened to be on campus that year, which is unusual. What that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator, this rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. By the time he was expelled, the Dean of Students helped facilitate his transfer to another university. It was close enough by, he didn’t even have to move apartments. They had slowed down the proceedings for two years.

Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable, but he didn’t graduate for many reasons I get into in the book. And instead, what that meant for the victim for those two years, she had to take a leave of absence. Because he was so violent and dangerous, she couldn’t safely be on campus.

And so they told her, the same thing we were talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. It’s the opposite of helping someone who is an abuse victim.

And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from the book and all these conversations. Is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator. Every time we say, I’m going to be fair to both people. I’m going to invite you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come. What you’re saying is the perpetrator will be here, and the victim won’t.

You’re not giving them anything possible. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair.

Perpetrator’s Continued Abuse

**Nicole:** It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. That’s actually what my literary agent called the book. Everything is backwards.

**Anne:** Yeah, the other issue people don’t recognize is that he will still be abusing her at that event. You know, I don’t care what it is. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, oh, she’s so crazy. That is abuse, and he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse, who is going to help. It’s not like this happened in the past. It’s happening right then.

**Nicole:** And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that is still a continuation of the abuse. I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. So instead, they say, he seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting. And that’s part of the plan too.

Grooming As Abuse

**Nicole:** One of the things I say about perpetrators is they don’t abuse everybody. And a big part of that abuse is showing that they can follow social norms and treat people appropriately outside of their victim. Ultimately, it still leads too often, in this case. To other people trying to control the victim, blaming them and questioning their legitimacy.

That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings, is they just come in and don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, Oh, he must be fine.

**Anne:** That is the abuse. That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that is the abuse. They don’t realize they’re being abused too, because he’s not being honest. He’s not doing anything overt, but he’s not coming in and saying, I did do this. This is the truth, right?

**Nicole:** That’s the only thing that would be not abusive, right? Would be if there was a shared reality that abuse occurred. That is the only thing that would be fair to a victim.

**Anne:** Yes, and it’s the only way abuse would not occur. You just said that, I just repeated you. Sorry, but yeah.

**Nicole:** That just makes me feel like it was a good point.

**Anne:** It was. It was worthy of repeating. It’s huge when you talk about institutional issues with this. The same thing happens with the courts with civil custody cases in the same way. And it’s so hard, because that’s just that part where you said she helped him transfer his stuff to the new school.

Institutional Betrayal: When They Refuse To Help Abuse Victims

**Anne:** No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping her.

**Nicole:** And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. There’s actually an academic concept that I introduced early in the book in the first few pages that I think would be helpful to your listeners. And it’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic.

One of the big focus points in the book. Is the victim’s experience of violence and trauma not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over?

Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. In studies, we find that survivors who experience institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a victim assaulted a second time.

It is an equal severity to that original act of violence, which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right. And for our friends and families to get this right too.

Hope For Better Support

**Nicole:** Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. I think it’s overwhelming to think. Wow, I thought the worst was over. I actually could encounter something just as bad when I seek help. This is overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims.

I come out hopeful, from the place where survivors who seek it get help. They have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. That’s got to be our goal here. It’s to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to.

And oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing, because the stakes are high. And we could help many people.

**Anne:** Just talking with the victims I talk with daily. My eye twitches when they are not helped by the police, the civil court system, their clergy or couple therapists. This is overwhelming and scary. We do have to speak out and take some action, which is what we don’t want to do, which is what this podcast is about. Like oh, why are we making victims do more, you know? It’s such a catch 22.

**Nicole:** I want to say one of the things about institutional betrayal too. And one of the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims. Is institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity, if we already have some distrust for the institution.

Anticipating Institutional Responses

**Nicole:** One of the key components is abuse victims going to get help and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to raise the bar actually,

**Anne:** Yeah, no, I get what you’re saying.

**Nicole:** Yeah, but to know what can happen.

**Anne:** That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. So instead of doing that, let’s do this other thing. If you are going to report this, this is likely what’s going to happen. And so instead of doing that, although you can report, but like know these things beforehand.

The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, everyone, there’s like: Call the national domestic violence hotline. And then call our state domestic violence hotline. And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that that’s not the solution at all.

In fact, one victim I know recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.

We’re going to interview you. So she told him, yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate. She told him the whole story. And she’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They like reviewed her case.

Abuse Victims Get Help From Confidential Community Support

**Anne:** They got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?

**Nicole:** Oh my.

**Anne:** So it was like a full circle. You know, the thing I think people think is to put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article. And the problem is solved. And if she doesn’t call that number, it’s her fault because she didn’t call the number.

**Nicole:** So I think one of the questions I get is, if many of these systems aren’t trustworthy. Where can they go to get help? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one or a rape crisis hotline. That is different than a domestic violence shelter. You want one that’s confidential, because a confidential service won’t call the police. They cannot be subpoenaed in a court of law.

So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. And so it’s step one. Obviously, that’s just a place to let you know what the options are and which ones other survivors think are the most trustworthy.

Things like that, but what I would say is make sure you’re going somewhere confidential, which will give you many options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. That’s a big part of why I wrote the book. I talk about campus violence. But I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose the trajectory of their cases. Victims lose their autonomy, and are re-traumatized.

Red Flags In Institutional Responses

**Nicole:** Things you can almost treat like red flags. So things like being told one thing will happen, but you didn’t get the full story. And actually now everything’s moving in a different direction. Things like seeing your case broken into a bunch of pieces, where people only want to focus on one tiny part of it. And then they ignore everything else. Lots of things like that, where you can see these institutional red flags.

And one of them is one of the ones we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when people conflate punishment and consequences, when people act as if there are natural consequences to violence. And when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences. I need help with consequences.” Victims are recast as punishing, and everything focuses on, but that could be bad for the perpetrator. That is one of the biggest red flags.

Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. You can’t just say, oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator. So it goes away. And that’s one of the ones to think about is that conflation between addressing the consequences that are unavoidable. That are just going to happen due to the action of violence, coercion, harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced.

And acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. That I would say is one of the biggest red flags and coming forward.

**Anne:** That’s really, really good.

Misogyny In Handling Cases

**Anne:** I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner, and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business. And the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court?” And then everyone around him told him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” And I’ve had people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, what I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.

**Nicole:** Yeah.

**Anne:** I think about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him. They can’t even talk about that, because they’re like, that would never happen.

**Nicole:** Right. It’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. And that’s, I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. One of the things I found in my work was that when the roles were on a title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents. That’s sort of the civil equivalent of like plaintiff. I guess there’s no version in a criminal trial where the victim is treated as a person and not evidence.

But you know, it’s the same as plaintiff and defendant, but in a Title IX context is complainant and respondent. So when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint, is where a real act of violence happened. The victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responds by filing a second complaint saying, actually, I’m the true victim.

Retaliatory Complaints: When You Go For Help And It Gets Worse

Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard. He doesn’t argue, no, there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is to muddle the narrative, confuse investigators, and intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint.

That’s what’s happening here. And then sometimes when we talk about cases like Depp vs. Heard, there is that benefit we already talked about. Which is that even if it is a second case, the perpetrator feels confident, nothing bad will happen to them. They can enjoy the forced contact with the victim. Who previously escaped him.

In cases of retaliatory complaints, I found the university didn’t care anymore about due process. That when women were in the role of the accused, they faced many consequences. A lot of, I would argue, punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them.

And it is a gender issue. It’s that when it’s a woman versus a man. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader. Because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little more shielded in something more, called empathy.

Empathy For Perpetrators

**Nicole:** So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. Men receive excessive empathy at the expense of women.

**Anne:** Hmm

**Nicole:** Yeah. It’s a great concept.

**Anne:** I’m liking this.

**Nicole:** It’s so good. That’s another book you should get. You should read *Entitled* by Cate Mann, it’s so good. But what this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, well, you know, abuse is horrible. The victim’s life is already ruined. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.

I want to make sure we do right by the perpetrator. People say it all the time. I have an entire chapter of the book about this. It’s truly unbelievable, if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. It’s treated as this righteous thing. If I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society, I must be a good person. There’s nothing worse than a perpetrator of abuse.

And so if I can empathize with that person, that means I’m the most empathetic person. And that means I’m the most moral person. That is what many people think, but it is totally backwards and it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Culture trains us to do that. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim, instead of treating the victim like evidence in the man’s story.

**Anne:** Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him.

Support For Survivors

**Anne:** And people are like, so offended.

**Nicole:** Yeah, people find it offensive.

**Anne:** And I’m like, why are you offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him?

**Nicole:** I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do. Something administrators would say is everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong.

So she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him. But the problem was everybody was doing that. And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way. To recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner.

Sometimes, her entire social group pushes the victim out. One of the things that’s so traumatic about violence is that a lot of people lose all their loved ones. They’re friends, many of their family, they might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator.

I put fair in big quotes here because none of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair.

**Anne:** There is no fairness.

**Nicole:** This makes me think of the next book I want to write.

Why Can’t Abuse Victims Ever Get Help?

**Nicole:** And so, you know, I’m putting the feelers out there if you know any publishers. The next book I want to write is something with a sort of working title of something like *The Responsibilities of Rapists*. Because I think when we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable. It’s really hard for people to imagine what that looks like for themselves. It’s hard to reinvent the wheel.

Most people are not experts on violence. But I do think at a bare minimum in our personal lives. When we know that we can’t trust many of these systems to help abuse victims. We have to handle this as individuals and communities. I think at the bare minimum, if we know that the main thing victims want is never to share space with their perpetrator again. That’s the number one thing victims say they want. At the bare minimum, I think we can ask that a perpetrator leaves a place where a victim is.

For the rest of their lives. That gives them the rest of the planet they can be in. And that one spot where the victim is should always be that space, because the trauma will leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we look at the perpetrator and say, well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?

That’s saying there’s a time limit for how long the victim can be traumatized. That’s not how it works.

Reasonable Consequences For Perpetrators

**Nicole:** And I think it’s reasonable to say, if you perpetrated a assault, the minimum of consequences is: If you see the victim in the grocery store, at your new job, you turn around, walk out, and go to a different grocery store. You get a different job. This is reasonable to ask for. If anything, it’s lenient. For an abuse victim looking, help seems impossible to find.

**Anne:** You are 100 percent well spoken and amazing. I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful that you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk to me today.

**Nicole:** Thank you so much for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today.

**Anne:** Thank you.

Ex Is Continually Trying to Use Our Kids To Hurt Me — **When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos** Feb 11, 2025
There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or simply creating chaos out of everyday situations, abusers know that one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children.

If you’re going through this and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You In The Courtroom

Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. They want chaos and enjoy the fight.

To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and live by boundaries.

Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Use Your Own Anger

Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger.

They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy

If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress.

It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. Learn strategies to protect yourself from post separation abuse in The Living Free Workshop.

Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something I recorded years ago. When I got divorced, I started with a pretty good custody situation. However, my ex was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me almost daily. He’s an attorney.

And he neglected the kids, undermining their medical care. He cancelled medical appointments. He refused to support any of their extracurricular activities. Every day was chaos. I went to court six years post divorce to try to get him even less custody. He got more as a result of that case.

I was devastated, you’ll hear that in my voice. At the time, I recorded this. I didn’t know what would happen. But after I recorded it, I began studying deliverance and praying for deliverance. I asked God to show me strategies that I could use to enable Christ to deliver me and my children. That study led me on a journey, and a year later, I actually got absolute, full custody of my children, with my ex having extremely minimal time.

And these strategies I employed out of court. So this was not a result of a court case. He basically signed his rights away. He gave me full deciding power, and they only needed to go with him one weekend a month. Two holidays a year and one week in the summer, which is incredible.

Because that worked, I mentored other women with these same strategies to ensure it wasn’t just a fluke. Like, was this only gonna work for me? Or could it work when your ex uses the kids to hurt you, or for any woman in any situation? Whether she was still married, separated or divorced. Would these living free strategies work for anyone? And we found they did.

Writing The Living Free & Message Workshops

**Anne:** To make sure that every woman had access to these strategies, I wrote the BTR Living Free Workshop. As you listen, you’ll hear how much I wanted to protect my children from this awful custody situation. I want you to know that we were delivered.

I believe my Savior, Jesus Christ showed me these strategies through my study. Now that’s in Living Free. So if you want to learn more about The Living Free Workshop. Part of the strategy I used is in the BTR.ORG Message Workshop. You can enroll in The Message Workshop after you finished the Living Free lessons. The Message Workshop builds on the foundation of Living Free.

So start with Living Free. All right, are you ready to hear this recording from years ago, before I found the living free strategies?

Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ.

For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world.

Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares

**Anne:** I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t.

They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. Meanwhile, your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments.

They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore?

And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries.

Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches.

Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win.

I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense.

We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. The boundaries separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety.

Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children.

Scriptural Helps & Safety

**Anne:** There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields.

And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left.

Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance

**Anne:** Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace?

Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them.

Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you.

Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right.

Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule.

Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the *Our Family Wizard* app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me.

So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through *Our Family Wizard*. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes.

Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe

**Anne:** If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess.

I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God.

Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children.

So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and i’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice.

I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with.

Hope & Faith In God

**Anne:** One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that.

Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them.

Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children.

It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again.

When your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Pray For Deliverance

**Anne:** So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than praying your husband will change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out.

I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts do not understand this, that therapists don’t understand this, the clergy doesn’t. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow.

That deliverance would be a miracle. Now, I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do. And I think we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else.

Praying For Custody Case & My Situation Got Worse

**Anne:** I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now.

It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work.

It’s not going to work for kids, but in the meantime, we’re not being delivered, it’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce.

She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it.

I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day.

Your Comments Help Others Find Us

**Anne:** By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy.

“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.”

“I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.”

I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Accept & Embrace Your Own Anger

**Anne:** The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this.

I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it is, it is It is not normal to not be angry in this situation. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter.

The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because the abuse hasn’t stopped, because she’s not safe. She hasn’t figured out how to set boundaries. She hasn’t figured out how to separate herself from the harm.

Permission Given To Be Angry & Bitter

**Anne:** Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to gaslight women into not taking steps to safety.

I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. There aren’t these three options. It’s not like you become bitter, you go mad or you grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety.

That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time.

And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us.

The Character Of Abusers

**Anne:** Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate you, how do you know what it is? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action? When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It is to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I have had many conversations about the term entitlement.

We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word.

Exploitative Privilege, When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me. You owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that.

These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege to exploit their spouse, which is an abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable.

https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY

But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great.

This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege. That is always an abusive situation. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal.

Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal?

My Current Reflections

**Anne:** So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live.

That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain.

Miracles Come Through Hard Work

**Anne:** My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen?

And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner.

And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest.

No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know.

Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you.

It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it.

If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.

What if The Ex Uses Your Kids To Hurt You Even More? — **When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos** Feb 11, 2025
There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or simply creating chaos out of everyday situations, abusers know that one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children.

If you’re going through this and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You In The Courtroom

Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. They want chaos and enjoy the fight.

To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and live by boundaries.

Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Use Your Own Anger

Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger.

They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy

If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress.

It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. Learn strategies to protect yourself from post separation abuse in The Living Free Workshop.

Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something I recorded years ago. When I got divorced, I started with a pretty good custody situation. However, my ex was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me almost daily. He’s an attorney.

And he neglected the kids, undermining their medical care. He cancelled medical appointments. He refused to support any of their extracurricular activities. Every day was chaos. I went to court six years post divorce to try to get him even less custody. He got more as a result of that case.

I was devastated, you’ll hear that in my voice. At the time, I recorded this. I didn’t know what would happen. But after I recorded it, I began studying deliverance and praying for deliverance. I asked God to show me strategies that I could use to enable Christ to deliver me and my children. That study led me on a journey, and a year later, I actually got absolute, full custody of my children, with my ex having extremely minimal time.

And these strategies I employed out of court. So this was not a result of a court case. He basically signed his rights away. He gave me full deciding power, and they only needed to go with him one weekend a month. Two holidays a year and one week in the summer, which is incredible.

Because that worked, I mentored other women with these same strategies to ensure it wasn’t just a fluke. Like, was this only gonna work for me? Or could it work when your ex uses the kids to hurt you, or for any woman in any situation? Whether she was still married, separated or divorced. Would these living free strategies work for anyone? And we found they did.

Writing The Living Free & Message Workshops

**Anne:** To make sure that every woman had access to these strategies, I wrote the BTR Living Free Workshop. As you listen, you’ll hear how much I wanted to protect my children from this awful custody situation. I want you to know that we were delivered.

I believe my Savior, Jesus Christ showed me these strategies through my study. Now that’s in Living Free. So if you want to learn more about The Living Free Workshop. Part of the strategy I used is in the BTR.ORG Message Workshop. You can enroll in The Message Workshop after you finished the Living Free lessons. The Message Workshop builds on the foundation of Living Free.

So start with Living Free. All right, are you ready to hear this recording from years ago, before I found the living free strategies?

Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ.

For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world.

Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares

**Anne:** I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t.

They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. Meanwhile, your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments.

They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore?

And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries.

Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches.

Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win.

I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense.

We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. The boundaries separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety.

Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children.

Scriptural Helps & Safety

**Anne:** There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields.

And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left.

Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance

**Anne:** Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace?

Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them.

Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you.

Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right.

Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule.

Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the *Our Family Wizard* app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me.

So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through *Our Family Wizard*. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes.

Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe

**Anne:** If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess.

I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God.

Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children.

So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and i’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice.

I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with.

Hope & Faith In God

**Anne:** One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that.

Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them.

Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children.

It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again.

When your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Pray For Deliverance

**Anne:** So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than praying your husband will change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out.

I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts do not understand this, that therapists don’t understand this, the clergy doesn’t. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow.

That deliverance would be a miracle. Now, I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do. And I think we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else.

Praying For Custody Case & My Situation Got Worse

**Anne:** I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now.

It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work.

It’s not going to work for kids, but in the meantime, we’re not being delivered, it’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce.

She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it.

I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day.

Your Comments Help Others Find Us

**Anne:** By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy.

“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.”

“I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.”

I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Accept & Embrace Your Own Anger

**Anne:** The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this.

I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it is, it is It is not normal to not be angry in this situation. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter.

The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because the abuse hasn’t stopped, because she’s not safe. She hasn’t figured out how to set boundaries. She hasn’t figured out how to separate herself from the harm.

Permission Given To Be Angry & Bitter

**Anne:** Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to gaslight women into not taking steps to safety.

I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. There aren’t these three options. It’s not like you become bitter, you go mad or you grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety.

That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time.

And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us.

The Character Of Abusers

**Anne:** Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate you, how do you know what it is? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action? When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It is to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I have had many conversations about the term entitlement.

We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, *Trauma Mama Husband Drama*. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word.

Exploitative Privilege, When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

**Anne:** I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me. You owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that.

These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege to exploit their spouse, which is an abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable.

https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY

But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great.

This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege. That is always an abusive situation. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal.

Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal?

My Current Reflections

**Anne:** So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live.

That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain.

Miracles Come Through Hard Work

**Anne:** My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen?

And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner.

And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest.

No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know.

Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you.

It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it.

If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.

Why Would My Husband Lie To Me? — **I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me – Stacey’s Story** Feb 04, 2025
When something just feels off. Do I think, “My husband is lying to me.” How do you know what to do next?

When he gives you that strange, blank look before answering a simple question, it’s likely that he was taking time to formulate a story he thought you’d believe.

Stacey is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast sharing her own story of seeking safety after learning that her husband was living a double life, rife with lies and manipulation.

To discover if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse (lying), take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.

The Abuser Puts On A Facade

Many victims struggle to accept that the abuser is manipulating them because of the incredibly believable facade they put on. The abuser may wear a mask that makes him seem:

Devoutly religious

Like an honorable leader (many abusers hold public leadership roles)

Incredibly smart (doctors, attorneys, professors, etc)

Gentle (others may say things like, “He wouldn’t hurt a fly!”

Altruistic and woke (some abusers may be very involved in human rights activism, civil rights, or other causes to seem like a good person)

Grounded and at peace (they may wear this mask by getting involved in new-age practices like yoga, meditation, secular Buddhism, becoming a life coach, etc).

The Abuser Gaslights You To Avoid Getting Caught

Abusers will keep victims spiraling in every direction, so that catching your husband lying is a nearly impossible feat. They keep victims especially fixated on their own “flaws” so that victims feel they’re not allowed or worthy to address the abuser’s dishonesty.

If Something Feels Off, Trust Yourself

Ultimately, you can’t outsmart an abuser – they’ll deny, gaslight, and project until they’re blue in the face. Even if they admit they’re lying, they will never give you the closure and validation that you deserve. Instead, trust yourself that something is off, and instead of seeking definitive proof and a confession, seek safety. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process your trauma and work toward safety. Attend a session today.

Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me

**Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy.

**Stacey:** Thank you. It’s great to be here.

**Anne:** Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him?

**Stacey:** No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind

**Anne:** Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?”

**Stacey:** Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on.

**Anne:** Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time?

**Stacey:** For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck.

Manipulation & Lies

**Anne:** So what persona had he crafted to manipulate you?

**Stacey:** Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.

**Anne:** So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something?

**Stacey:** Yeah, 10 years.

**Anne:** Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair?

**Stacey:** Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state.

And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me.

Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair.

Uncovering The Affair

**Stacey:** He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and ying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that.

So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad.

Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later.

**Anne:** It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face?

**Stacey:** Yeah, absolutely.

**Anne:** Had you seen that ever in your marriage before?

**Stacey:** I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was.

Is My Husband Lying To Me? The Narcissistic Stare

**Stacey:** To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change.

**Anne:** I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.”

You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.”

And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that.

**Stacey:** Right.

**Anne:** And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right?

Seeking Help & Finding BTR.ORG

**Anne:** I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you.

That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar.

**Stacey:** Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look.

**Anne:** Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

**Stacey:** I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either.

The Role Of Pornography

**Anne:** After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that.

**Stacey:** He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me.

And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week.

And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: It’s Either Too Much Or Not Enough With A User

**Anne:** Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person.

Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn.

**Stacey:** Oh.

**Anne:** And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while?

**Stacey:** Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair.

Programs As A Grooming Tool

**Anne:** Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you?

**Stacey:** A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot.

**Anne:** And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t.

**Stacey:** Yes, totally.

**Anne:** We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy.

And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate.

Weaponizing Therapy Language

**Anne:** They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy.

**Stacey:** Right.

**Anne:** I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me.

**Stacey:** Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me.

Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff.

They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows.

My Husband Was Lying to Clergy And Therapists Too

**Anne:** So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working?

**Stacey:** Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like …

https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc

**Anne:** What?

**Stacey:** … leave me. This is a counselor.

**Anne:** He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy.

**Stacey:** It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven.

Family & Spiritual Pressure

**Stacey:** He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader.

So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides?

**Stacey:** Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this.

**Anne:** What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence.

**Stacey:** Yeah.

**Anne:** So, I need to get myself hence from this.

Finding Validation In BTR.ORG

**Anne:** When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation?

**Stacey:** I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on.

Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big.

**Anne:** I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you.

So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Power Of Community

**Anne:** And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time.

Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here.

So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse?

**Stacey:** It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave.

But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years.

**Anne:** Seven years since the affair?

**Stacey:** Yeah.

**Anne:** Okay.

Impact On Children

**Stacey:** And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested.

And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go.

**Anne:** It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions.

But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no.

If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what.

The Impact Of Abuse On Decision Making

**Anne:** I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea.

**Stacey:** I don’t either.

**Anne:** I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety.

And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you.

So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like.

Using The Living Free Workshop To Tell If He’s Lying

**Anne:** And that’s why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. The Living Free Workshop helps women realize what type of character their husband has. And thought, boundary, and communication strategies to keep you safe.

These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary.

**Stacey:** Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time.

**Anne:** Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?

**Stacey:** No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view.

My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions.

The Blame Game In Relationships

The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise.

**Anne:** Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job.

**Stacey:** Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed.

**Anne:** Did he get remarried?

**Stacey:** No, neither of them did.

**Anne:** Your brother’s an abuser.

**Stacey:** Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely.

**Anne:** Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy?

**Stacey:** Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think.

**Anne:** That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men.

The Reality of Abuse Statistics

**Anne:** Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it.

**Stacey:** Wow.

**Anne:** So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.

**Stacey:** Scary statistics.

**Anne:** If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?

**Stacey:** I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad.

When Your Husband Lies: The Value Of Women In Faith

**Anne:** In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times.

I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us?

**Stacey:** Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.

**Anne:** I also think it’s how we were treated.

**Stacey:** Oh yeah, absolutely.

**Anne:** So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry.

Dealing With Stereotypical Gender Roles & Self Worth

**Anne:** And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life?

**Stacey:** No.

**Anne:** Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies.

So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp.

**Stacey:** It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me.

The Struggle With Misogyny

**Anne:** They don’t cherish us.

**Stacey:** Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly?

**Anne:** That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us.

**Stacey:** Right, exactly.

**Anne:** When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her.

**Stacey:** How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you?

Personal Scriptures & Divine Deliverance

**Anne:** In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me.

And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures.

So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance.

So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil.

The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance

**Anne:** You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together.

It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea.

You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that.

And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse.

God Delivers Us From Evil

**Anne:** God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil.

They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them.

The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius.

**Stacey:** Yeah, that’s big.

**Anne:** The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time.

**Stacey:** Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff.

Reconciling Faith & Abuse

**Anne:** I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?

**Stacey:** Yes, she did, yeah.

**Anne:** So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation.

Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that.

Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do.

Exposure Of Abuse & Lies

**Anne:** I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined.

**Stacey:** Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit.

**Anne:** I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right?

No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.

The Power Of Truth & Self-Worth

**Stacey:** Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth.

Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true.

**Anne:** Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him.

Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever.

Strength In Numbers

**Stacey:** Yeah, right.

**Anne:** The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time.

**Stacey:** It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and express myself. I really appreciate it.

**I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me – Stacey’s Story** Feb 04, 2025
When something just feels off. Do I think, “My husband is lying to me.” How do you know what to do next?

When he gives you that strange, blank look before answering a simple question, it’s likely that he was taking time to formulate a story he thought you’d believe.

Stacey is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast sharing her own story of seeking safety after learning that her husband was living a double life, rife with lies and manipulation.

To discover if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse (lying), take ourfree emotional abuse quiz.

The Abuser Puts On A Facade

Many victims struggle to accept that the abuser is manipulating them because of the incredibly believable facade they put on. The abuser may wear a mask that makes him seem:

Devoutly religious

Like an honorable leader (many abusers hold public leadership roles)

Incredibly smart (doctors, attorneys, professors, etc)

Gentle (others may say things like, “He wouldn’t hurt a fly!”

Altruistic and woke (some abusers may be very involved in human rights activism, civil rights, or other causes to seem like a good person)

Grounded and at peace (they may wear this mask by getting involved in new-age practices like yoga, meditation, secular Buddhism, becoming a life coach, etc).

The Abuser Gaslights You To Avoid Getting Caught

Abusers will keep victims spiraling in every direction, so that catching your husband lying is a nearly impossible feat. They keep victims especially fixated on their own “flaws” so that victims feel they’re not allowed or worthy to address the abuser’s dishonesty.

If Something Feels Off, Trust Yourself

Ultimately, you can’t outsmart an abuser – they’ll deny, gaslight, and project until they’re blue in the face. Even if they admit they’re lying, they will never give you the closure and validation that you deserve. Instead, trust yourself that something is off, and instead of seeking definitive proof and a confession, seek safety. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process your trauma and work toward safety. Attend a session today.

Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me

**Anne:** I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy.

**Stacey:** Thank you. It’s great to be here.

**Anne:** Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him?

**Stacey:** No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind

**Anne:** Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?”

**Stacey:** Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on.

**Anne:** Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time?

**Stacey:** For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck.

Manipulation & Lies

**Anne:** So what persona had he crafted to manipulate you?

**Stacey:** Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.

**Anne:** So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something?

**Stacey:** Yeah, 10 years.

**Anne:** Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair?

**Stacey:** Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state.

And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me.

Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair.

Uncovering The Affair

**Stacey:** He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and ying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that.

So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad.

Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later.

**Anne:** It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face?

**Stacey:** Yeah, absolutely.

**Anne:** Had you seen that ever in your marriage before?

**Stacey:** I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was.

Is My Husband Lying To Me? The Narcissistic Stare

**Stacey:** To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change.

**Anne:** I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.”

You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.”

And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that.

**Stacey:** Right.

**Anne:** And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right?

Seeking Help & Finding BTR.ORG

**Anne:** I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you.

That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar.

**Stacey:** Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look.

**Anne:** Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

**Stacey:** I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either.

The Role Of Pornography

**Anne:** After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that.

**Stacey:** He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me.

And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week.

And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: It’s Either Too Much Or Not Enough With A User

**Anne:** Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person.

Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn.

**Stacey:** Oh.

**Anne:** And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while?

**Stacey:** Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair.

Programs As A Grooming Tool

**Anne:** Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you?

**Stacey:** A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot.

**Anne:** And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t.

**Stacey:** Yes, totally.

**Anne:** We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy.

And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate.

Weaponizing Therapy Language

**Anne:** They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy.

**Stacey:** Right.

**Anne:** I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me.

**Stacey:** Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me.

Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff.

They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows.

My Husband Was Lying to Clergy And Therapists Too

**Anne:** So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working?

**Stacey:** Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like …

https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc

**Anne:** What?

**Stacey:** … leave me. This is a counselor.

**Anne:** He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy.

**Stacey:** It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven.

Family & Spiritual Pressure

**Stacey:** He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging.

**Anne:** Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader.

So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides?

**Stacey:** Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this.

**Anne:** What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence.

**Stacey:** Yeah.

**Anne:** So, I need to get myself hence from this.

Finding Validation In BTR.ORG

**Anne:** When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation?

**Stacey:** I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on.

Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big.

**Anne:** I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you.

So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Power Of Community

**Anne:** And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time.

Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here.

So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse?

**Stacey:** It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave.

But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years.

**Anne:** Seven years since the affair?

**Stacey:** Yeah.

**Anne:** Okay.

Impact On Children

**Stacey:** And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested.

And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go.

**Anne:** It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions.

But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no.

If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what.

The Impact Of Abuse On Decision Making

**Anne:** I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea.

**Stacey:** I don’t either.

**Anne:** I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety.

And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you.

So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like.

Using The Living Free Workshop To Tell If He’s Lying

**Anne:** And that’s why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. The Living Free Workshop helps women realize what type of character their husband has. And thought, boundary, and communication strategies to keep you safe.

These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary.

**Stacey:** Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time.

**Anne:** Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?

**Stacey:** No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view.

My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions.

The Blame Game In Relationships

The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise.

**Anne:** Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job.

**Stacey:** Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed.

**Anne:** Did he get remarried?

**Stacey:** No, neither of them did.

**Anne:** Your brother’s an abuser.

**Stacey:** Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely.

**Anne:** Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy?

**Stacey:** Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think.

**Anne:** That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men.

The Reality of Abuse Statistics

**Anne:** Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it.

**Stacey:** Wow.

**Anne:** So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.

**Stacey:** Scary statistics.

**Anne:** If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?

**Stacey:** I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad.

When Your Husband Lies: The Value Of Women In Faith

**Anne:** In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times.

I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us?

**Stacey:** Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.

**Anne:** I also think it’s how we were treated.

**Stacey:** Oh yeah, absolutely.

**Anne:** So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry.

Dealing With Stereotypical Gender Roles & Self Worth

**Anne:** And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life?

**Stacey:** No.

**Anne:** Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies.

So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp.

**Stacey:** It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me.

The Struggle With Misogyny

**Anne:** They don’t cherish us.

**Stacey:** Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly?

**Anne:** That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us.

**Stacey:** Right, exactly.

**Anne:** When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.

**Stacey:** Absolutely.

**Anne:** That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her.

**Stacey:** How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you?

Personal Scriptures & Divine Deliverance

**Anne:** In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me.

And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures.

So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance.

So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil.

The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance

**Anne:** You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together.

It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea.

You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that.

And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse.

God Delivers Us From Evil

**Anne:** God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil.

They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them.

The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius.

**Stacey:** Yeah, that’s big.

**Anne:** The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time.

**Stacey:** Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff.

Reconciling Faith & Abuse

**Anne:** I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?

**Stacey:** Yes, she did, yeah.

**Anne:** So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation.

Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that.

Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do.

Exposure Of Abuse & Lies

**Anne:** I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined.

**Stacey:** Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit.

**Anne:** I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right?

No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.

The Power Of Truth & Self-Worth

**Stacey:** Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth.

Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true.

**Anne:** Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him.

Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever.

Strength In Numbers

**Stacey:** Yeah, right.

**Anne:** The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time.

**Stacey:** It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and express myself. I really appreciate it.

Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict? How To Heal No Matter What — **Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict – Natalie’s Story** Jan 21, 2025
Even when clergy counsels you to forgive. Even when family sides with an emotionally abusive husband. Rather than focus on emotional abuse vs normal conflict, focus on emotional safety.

Emotional safety IS the “treatment”.

If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict

**Emotional Abuse:** Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self.

**Normal Conflict:** Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other.

When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause Infidelty, it’s emotional abuse.

How To Seek Safety

Many women in the BTR.ORG community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on.

In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life:

**Physical Safety**: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats.

**Emotional and Psychological Safety**: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation.

**Spiritual Safety**: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you.

**Financial Safety**: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions.

**Sexual Safety**: Having autonomy over your own body and choices.

Steps To Begin Your Journey:

**Separate Yourself from Harm**:

Enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe.

**Surround Yourself with Support**:

Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery where you can share your story without judgment. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY.

**Practice Self-Care**:

Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health.

**Educate Yourself About Abuse**:

Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

Transcript: Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict?

**Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie Hoffman on today’s episode. She’s the host of the Flying Free Now podcast. Which is a podcast dedicated to teaching women about emotional and spiritual abuse. She’s also the author of *All the Scary Little Gods*, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie.

**Natalie:** Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

**Anne:** You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here.

Let’s start by talking about your new book, *All the Scary Little Gods*.

**Natalie:** I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it.

So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell.

**Anne:** I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things.

Discussing *All the Scary Little Gods*

**Natalie:** Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. And it can be kind of humorous, because as adults read it, we can see what’s going on, but the child is clueless.

And then there’s a lot of arguing and disagreement inside of me throughout part two. As to what is the best course of action in any given situation. I was in a very religious environment that was oppressive. But I had bought into it hook, line and sinker because I grew up in an environment like that.

Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns?

I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life.

**Anne:** Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming and also figuring out for yourself if faith is right for you.

Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith

**Natalie:** I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you.

And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist.

So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems.

I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith.

The Concept Of Love In Faith

**Natalie:** I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people.

And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person.

**Anne:** Or God, right? Absolutely agreed.

https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg

**Natalie:** And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain.

Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.

The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse

**Natalie:** When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus.

If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. We are interconnected with our creator, and are whole, complete, and resourced as we are. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us.

We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus.

Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion.

From all kinds of things that happen in our lives, being bullied at school, to getting lost in the shopping mall as a child. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain.

Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts

**Natalie:** Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey.

I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me.

So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with.

These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness.

Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On

**Natalie:** Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us.

**Anne:** That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is.

**Natalie:** Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around.

**Anne:** Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself.

**Natalie:** And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety.

Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse?

**Natalie:** We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people.

I started connecting some dots for myself in my own life when I was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder. The first dot I connected was my understanding of what CPTSD was, and then how I ended up having it. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic.

Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident.

It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one.

The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness

**Natalie:** The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me.

So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies.

Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men.

**Anne:** Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes.

**Natalie:** So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world.

There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective.

Determining Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict: Listen To The Spirit Within

**Natalie:** So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself.

**Anne:** It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice.

The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you.

Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse.

**Natalie:** You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important.

When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them.

Partnering With God In Decision Making

**Natalie:** So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal.

And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes.

I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out.

If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock.

Learning & Growing Through Mistakes

**Natalie:** As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken.

That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian.

You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense.

And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?”

God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time.

How To Heal From Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict

**Natalie:** And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay.

That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt.

It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that.

**Anne:** Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow.

**Natalie:** Exactly.

**Anne:** just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it.

**Natalie:** That’s exactly right.

**Anne:** Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at.

Understanding Reactions To Abuse

**Anne:** How do our bodies react when faced with spiritual or emotional abuse, maybe in both those scenarios ?

**Natalie:** I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story.

One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking.

So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus.

**Anne:** Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing.

**Natalie:** I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad.

**Anne:** I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus.

**Natalie:** They have that badge and…

**Anne:** Yeah.

The Role of “Rude” In Self-Liberation

**Natalie:** Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened.

All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways.

So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me.

My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad.

Living With Anxiety & Overperformance When It’s Emotional Abuse

**Natalie:** But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean.

I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body.

After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory.

The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband.

So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle.

Rooted Beliefs & Programming

**Natalie:** It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me.

**Anne:** I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe?

**Natalie:** Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do.

The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program.

**Anne:** Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against.

**Natalie:** That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things.

Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. You rely and depend on them for your world.

Childhood Programming & Survival

**Natalie:** And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is.

And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse.

We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children.

A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity.

Knowing If It’s Emotional Abuse: Loosening Up Beliefs

**Natalie:** And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you.

**Anne:** It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that.

**Natalie:** Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out.

I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs.

Excommunication & Loss

**Natalie:** And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me.

Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse.

But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out.

That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years.

Isolation From Family

**Natalie:** So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me.

I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful?

**Anne:** I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better?

**Natalie:** Oh yeah.

**Anne:** One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too.

You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free.

Would you mind talking about that for a little bit?

Finding Freedom Outside The Sandbox

**Natalie:** Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how…

How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church.

I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox.

And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had.

The Gift Of Being Disliked

**Natalie:** And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play.

The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there.

It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict.

**Anne:** I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this.

**Natalie:** Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me.

**Anne:** Yeah!

**Natalie:** It’s a free world.

**Anne:** Great. Problem solved, right?

Aligning Meditation With Christian Faith

**Anne:** I created The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop, which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral.

And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral.

How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused.

**Natalie:** The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace.

He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us.

Healing Emotional Abuse Through Compassionate Identification

**Natalie:** And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their woundedness or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ.

Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love?

Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey?

That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes.

**Anne:** In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression.

Christ’s Mission Against Oppression

Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on.

**Natalie:** If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion.

**Anne:** I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out.

**Natalie:** I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers.

And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out.

**Anne:** If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it.

**Natalie:** Yes.

**Anne:** But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them.

**Natalie:** No.

How To Heal From Emotional Abuse The Growing Movement For Change

**Anne:** And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us.

**Natalie:** Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing.

**Natalie:** I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict.

It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done.

**Anne:** I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding.

**Natalie:** I’ll think about that.

**Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today.

What If I Can't Heal After This Emotional Abuse? — **Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict – Natalie’s Story** Jan 21, 2025
Even when clergy counsels you to forgive. Even when family sides with an emotionally abusive husband. Rather than focus on emotional abuse vs normal conflict, focus on emotional safety.

Emotional safety IS the “treatment”.

If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict

**Emotional Abuse:** Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self.

**Normal Conflict:** Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other.

When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause Infidelty, it’s emotional abuse.

How To Seek Safety

Many women in the BTR.ORG community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on.

In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life:

**Physical Safety**: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats.

**Emotional and Psychological Safety**: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation.

**Spiritual Safety**: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you.

**Financial Safety**: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions.

**Sexual Safety**: Having autonomy over your own body and choices.

Steps To Begin Your Journey:

**Separate Yourself from Harm**:

Enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe.

**Surround Yourself with Support**:

Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery where you can share your story without judgment. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY.

**Practice Self-Care**:

Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health.

**Educate Yourself About Abuse**:

Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

Transcript: Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict?

**Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie Hoffman on today’s episode. She’s the host of the Flying Free Now podcast. Which is a podcast dedicated to teaching women about emotional and spiritual abuse. She’s also the author of *All the Scary Little Gods*, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie.

**Natalie:** Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

**Anne:** You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here.

Let’s start by talking about your new book, *All the Scary Little Gods*.

**Natalie:** I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it.

So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell.

**Anne:** I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things.

Discussing *All the Scary Little Gods*

**Natalie:** Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. And it can be kind of humorous, because as adults read it, we can see what’s going on, but the child is clueless.

And then there’s a lot of arguing and disagreement inside of me throughout part two. As to what is the best course of action in any given situation. I was in a very religious environment that was oppressive. But I had bought into it hook, line and sinker because I grew up in an environment like that.

Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns?

I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life.

**Anne:** Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming and also figuring out for yourself if faith is right for you.

Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith

**Natalie:** I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you.

And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist.

So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems.

I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith.

The Concept Of Love In Faith

**Natalie:** I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people.

And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person.

**Anne:** Or God, right? Absolutely agreed.

https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg

**Natalie:** And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain.

Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.

The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse

**Natalie:** When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus.

If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. We are interconnected with our creator, and are whole, complete, and resourced as we are. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us.

We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus.

Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion.

From all kinds of things that happen in our lives, being bullied at school, to getting lost in the shopping mall as a child. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain.

Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts

**Natalie:** Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey.

I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me.

So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with.

These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness.

Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On

**Natalie:** Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us.

**Anne:** That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is.

**Natalie:** Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around.

**Anne:** Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself.

**Natalie:** And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety.

Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse?

**Natalie:** We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people.

I started connecting some dots for myself in my own life when I was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder. The first dot I connected was my understanding of what CPTSD was, and then how I ended up having it. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic.

Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident.

It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one.

The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness

**Natalie:** The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me.

So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies.

Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men.

**Anne:** Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes.

**Natalie:** So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world.

There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective.

Determining Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict: Listen To The Spirit Within

**Natalie:** So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself.

**Anne:** It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice.

The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you.

Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse.

**Natalie:** You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important.

When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them.

Partnering With God In Decision Making

**Natalie:** So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal.

And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes.

I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out.

If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock.

Learning & Growing Through Mistakes

**Natalie:** As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken.

That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian.

You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense.

And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?”

God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time.

How To Heal From Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict

**Natalie:** And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay.

That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt.

It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that.

**Anne:** Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow.

**Natalie:** Exactly.

**Anne:** just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it.

**Natalie:** That’s exactly right.

**Anne:** Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at.

Understanding Reactions To Abuse

**Anne:** How do our bodies react when faced with spiritual or emotional abuse, maybe in both those scenarios ?

**Natalie:** I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story.

One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking.

So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus.

**Anne:** Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing.

**Natalie:** I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad.

**Anne:** I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus.

**Natalie:** They have that badge and…

**Anne:** Yeah.

The Role of “Rude” In Self-Liberation

**Natalie:** Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened.

All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways.

So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me.

My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad.

Living With Anxiety & Overperformance When It’s Emotional Abuse

**Natalie:** But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean.

I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body.

After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory.

The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband.

So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle.

Rooted Beliefs & Programming

**Natalie:** It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me.

**Anne:** I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe?

**Natalie:** Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do.

The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program.

**Anne:** Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against.

**Natalie:** That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things.

Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. You rely and depend on them for your world.

Childhood Programming & Survival

**Natalie:** And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is.

And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse.

We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children.

A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity.

Knowing If It’s Emotional Abuse: Loosening Up Beliefs

**Natalie:** And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you.

**Anne:** It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that.

**Natalie:** Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out.

I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs.

Excommunication & Loss

**Natalie:** And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me.

Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse.

But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out.

That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years.

Isolation From Family

**Natalie:** So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me.

I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful?

**Anne:** I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better?

**Natalie:** Oh yeah.

**Anne:** One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too.

You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free.

Would you mind talking about that for a little bit?

Finding Freedom Outside The Sandbox

**Natalie:** Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how…

How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church.

I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox.

And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had.

The Gift Of Being Disliked

**Natalie:** And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play.

The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there.

It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict.

**Anne:** I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this.

**Natalie:** Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me.

**Anne:** Yeah!

**Natalie:** It’s a free world.

**Anne:** Great. Problem solved, right?

Aligning Meditation With Christian Faith

**Anne:** I created The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop, which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral.

And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral.

How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused.

**Natalie:** The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace.

He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us.

Healing Emotional Abuse Through Compassionate Identification

**Natalie:** And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their woundedness or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ.

Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love?

Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey?

That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes.

**Anne:** In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression.

Christ’s Mission Against Oppression

Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on.

**Natalie:** If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion.

**Anne:** I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out.

**Natalie:** I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers.

And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out.

**Anne:** If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it.

**Natalie:** Yes.

**Anne:** But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them.

**Natalie:** No.

How To Heal From Emotional Abuse The Growing Movement For Change

**Anne:** And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us.

**Natalie:** Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing.

**Natalie:** I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict.

It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done.

**Anne:** I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding.

**Natalie:** I’ll think about that.

**Anne:** Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today.

Symptoms That Can Point To Betrayal Trauma — **The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help** Jan 14, 2025
Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did *any* professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse?

If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you.

Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

“That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” *Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG*

Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse

Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.

To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms?

Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms:

Grief

Numbness

Rage

Depression

Insomnia and other sleep issues

Difficulty eating or overeating

Anxiety

Terror

Paranoia

Headaches

Body aches and pains

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms.

Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine your husband’s true character.

Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Anne:** I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth about betrayal trauma symptoms is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals.

They’re not identifying the betrayal trauma symptoms as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today.

Welcome Kathy.

**Kathy:** Thank you for having me.

**Anne:** Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved.

When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things?

**Kathy:** Yes, certainly.

The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse

**Kathy:** I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive.

It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim.

**Anne:** From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more.

**Kathy:** So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me.

And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence.

Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse

**Kathy:** So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified.

**Anne:** That’s very typical, or even less than that.

**Kathy:** Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident.

I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands.

And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their counselor actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer.

**Anne:** Communicate a little better.

**Kathy:** Yeah, communicate a little better.

**Anne:** Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect.

The Danger Of Couples Therapy With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Kathy:** What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me. They, in fact, contributed to my betrayal trauma symptoms.

**Anne:** I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy.

**Kathy:** Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.”

**Anne:** Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger.

**Kathy:** Absolutely, yep.

**Anne:** It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves.

And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused.

**Kathy:** Well, again, I can share another story.

When Therapy Makes Things Worse

**Kathy:** This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy.

And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness.

And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims.

**Anne:** Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue.

Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse

**Anne:** It’s emotionally and psychologically violent.

**Kathy:** Yep.

**Anne:** In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence.

Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways.

**Kathy:** Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do.

Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling.

**Anne:** Even just standing over them.

**Kathy:** Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence.

The Role Of Mental Health Professionals With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Kathy:** Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why.

But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone.

**Anne:** And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse.

**Kathy:** I’m really sorry.

**Anne:** For seven years, I’m suffering betrayal trauma symptoms under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful.

**Kathy:** I’m really sorry that happened to you.

**Anne:** Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape.

The Danger Of Misguided Therapy

**Anne:** But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that.

**Kathy:** And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah,

**Anne:** I don’t know.

**Kathy:** But it’s very few and far between.

**Anne:** It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because…

**Kathy:** She’s not a victim.

**Anne:** Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation.

**Kathy:** It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me?

Listening Without Blame Or Judgment

**Kathy:** This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app?

**Anne:** The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right?

Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it.

It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better?

**Kathy:** I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it.

Betrayal Trauma Symptoms & Power Dynamics In Abuse

**Kathy:** There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic.

And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form.

With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance.

**Anne:** Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse.

**Kathy:** You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing.

**Anne:** Hmm.

**Kathy:** That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy.

**Anne:** Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it?

**Kathy:** Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that.

The Intentionality Of Abusers

**Kathy:** People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing.

https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4

So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z?

Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse.

**Anne:** One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. Even though she suffers betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality?

Reframing Victim Blame

**Kathy:** And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously.

Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment.

**Anne:** We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing.

Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse?

**Kathy:** One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault.

**Anne:** That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained.

Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure

**Kathy:** It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom.

**Anne:** I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great.

**Kathy:** Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse.

**Anne:** So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior.

Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right?

Emotional and psychological abuse, and betrayal trauma symptoms, but she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter.

The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse

**Anne:** So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help. So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population.

**Kathy:** Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.”

Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways.

But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response.

The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure

**Kathy:** So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made.

**Anne:** Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior.

So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak.

**Kathy:** That’s really a thing?

**Anne:** This is really a thing, yeah.

**Kathy:** I’m horrified by what you just said.

**Anne:** Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it.

So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse.

The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse

**Anne:** And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering betrayal trauma symptoms.

**Kathy:** That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now.

**Anne:** Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure.

And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on.

**Kathy:** Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like?

**Anne:** Sure, yeah.

**Kathy:** This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me.

How To Identify Safe Helpers

**Kathy:** First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you.

There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim.

So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?”

**Anne:** Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe.

**Kathy:** Not a safe person, yeah.

**Anne:** That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides.

**Kathy:** It takes two to tango! Yeah.

**Anne:** It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse.

The Burden Of Proving Victimization

**Anne:** Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma symptoms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them?

**Kathy:** And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving.

Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault.

That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault.

So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator.

Reframing & Educating About Abuse

**Kathy:** It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her.

Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it.

If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive.

**Anne:** I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors.

**Kathy:** Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet?

The Right To Edit Your Story

**Kathy:** As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible.

But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might.

And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence.

Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks

**Anne:** Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children.

And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you.

**Kathy:** Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.

Recognizing The Betrayal Trauma Symptoms — **The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help** Jan 14, 2025
Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did *any* professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse?

If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you.

Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

“That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” *Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG*

Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse

Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.

To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms?

Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms:

Grief

Numbness

Rage

Depression

Insomnia and other sleep issues

Difficulty eating or overeating

Anxiety

Terror

Paranoia

Headaches

Body aches and pains

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms.

Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine your husband’s true character.

Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Anne:** I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth about betrayal trauma symptoms is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals.

They’re not identifying the betrayal trauma symptoms as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today.

Welcome Kathy.

**Kathy:** Thank you for having me.

**Anne:** Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved.

When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things?

**Kathy:** Yes, certainly.

The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse

**Kathy:** I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive.

It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim.

**Anne:** From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more.

**Kathy:** So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me.

And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence.

Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse

**Kathy:** So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified.

**Anne:** That’s very typical, or even less than that.

**Kathy:** Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident.

I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands.

And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their counselor actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer.

**Anne:** Communicate a little better.

**Kathy:** Yeah, communicate a little better.

**Anne:** Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect.

The Danger Of Couples Therapy With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Kathy:** What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me. They, in fact, contributed to my betrayal trauma symptoms.

**Anne:** I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy.

**Kathy:** Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.”

**Anne:** Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger.

**Kathy:** Absolutely, yep.

**Anne:** It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves.

And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused.

**Kathy:** Well, again, I can share another story.

When Therapy Makes Things Worse

**Kathy:** This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy.

And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness.

And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims.

**Anne:** Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue.

Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse

**Anne:** It’s emotionally and psychologically violent.

**Kathy:** Yep.

**Anne:** In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence.

Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways.

**Kathy:** Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do.

Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling.

**Anne:** Even just standing over them.

**Kathy:** Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence.

The Role Of Mental Health Professionals With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms

**Kathy:** Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why.

But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone.

**Anne:** And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse.

**Kathy:** I’m really sorry.

**Anne:** For seven years, I’m suffering betrayal trauma symptoms under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful.

**Kathy:** I’m really sorry that happened to you.

**Anne:** Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape.

The Danger Of Misguided Therapy

**Anne:** But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that.

**Kathy:** And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah,

**Anne:** I don’t know.

**Kathy:** But it’s very few and far between.

**Anne:** It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because…

**Kathy:** She’s not a victim.

**Anne:** Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation.

**Kathy:** It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me?

Listening Without Blame Or Judgment

**Kathy:** This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app?

**Anne:** The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right?

Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it.

It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better?

**Kathy:** I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it.

Betrayal Trauma Symptoms & Power Dynamics In Abuse

**Kathy:** There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic.

And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form.

With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance.

**Anne:** Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse.

**Kathy:** You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing.

**Anne:** Hmm.

**Kathy:** That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy.

**Anne:** Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it?

**Kathy:** Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that.

The Intentionality Of Abusers

**Kathy:** People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing.

https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4

So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z?

Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse.

**Anne:** One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. Even though she suffers betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality?

Reframing Victim Blame

**Kathy:** And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously.

Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment.

**Anne:** We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing.

Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse?

**Kathy:** One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault.

**Anne:** That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained.

Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure

**Kathy:** It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom.

**Anne:** I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great.

**Kathy:** Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse.

**Anne:** So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior.

Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right?

Emotional and psychological abuse, and betrayal trauma symptoms, but she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter.

The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse

**Anne:** So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help. So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population.

**Kathy:** Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.”

Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways.

But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response.

The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure

**Kathy:** So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made.

**Anne:** Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior.

So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak.

**Kathy:** That’s really a thing?

**Anne:** This is really a thing, yeah.

**Kathy:** I’m horrified by what you just said.

**Anne:** Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it.

So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse.

The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse

**Anne:** And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering betrayal trauma symptoms.

**Kathy:** That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now.

**Anne:** Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure.

And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on.

**Kathy:** Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like?

**Anne:** Sure, yeah.

**Kathy:** This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me.

How To Identify Safe Helpers

**Kathy:** First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you.

There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim.

So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?”

**Anne:** Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe.

**Kathy:** Not a safe person, yeah.

**Anne:** That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides.

**Kathy:** It takes two to tango! Yeah.

**Anne:** It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse.

The Burden Of Proving Victimization

**Anne:** Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma symptoms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them?

**Kathy:** And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving.

Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault.

That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault.

So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator.

Reframing & Educating About Abuse

**Kathy:** It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her.

Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it.

If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive.

**Anne:** I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors.

**Kathy:** Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet?

The Right To Edit Your Story

**Kathy:** As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible.

But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might.

And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence.

Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks

**Anne:** Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children.

And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you.

**Kathy:** Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.

Here's How To Tell If Your Husband Will Change — **Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change – Cece’s Story** Jan 07, 2025
One of the most frequent questions women ask is, *“How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change?” Whether* from secret pornography use, infidelity, emotional abuse, or other devastating forms of relational abuse, women want to know if there’s a reason to keep holding out.

The answer is yes, your husband can change. Will he? *That is up to him.* To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.

Do you have to wait around and be abused while he figures out if he wants to join you and your children? *No. And you shouldn’t.* Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t advocate divorce or staying in the marriage: **we advocate for safety.**

Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce the abuser, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further abuse. Boundaries are not statements, requests, or ultimatums. They are courageous actions that women take to separate themselves and their children from abusive behavior.

BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands

For women who choose to stay married, but courageously separate themselves from abusive behavior, the question remains: How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change? Anne Blythe has outlined 9 Signs of Change that can help victims gauge whether their husband is safe or becoming safe.

We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about emotional abuse and how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change.

Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone. Join women all over the world for validation, community, and support as you process your trauma and begin healing.

Transcript: Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change

**Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Cece is here to share her story about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Welcome Cece.

**Cece:** Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.

**Anne:** I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. I’m so honored to talk to you about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning when you met your husband. Can you talk about how you felt at first?

**Cece:** So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.

Was He Abused By His Girlfriend? Or Was She Just Protecting Herself?

**Cece:** And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.

**Anne:** Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?

**Cece:** I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…

**Anne:** The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.

**Cece:** Right.

**Anne:** A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.

**Cece:** That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.

Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.

Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.

Cece’s Early Relationship & Red Flags

**Cece:** I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”

I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”

And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”

“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.

**Anne:** It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive.

**CeCe:** right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.

And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match.

Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring

**Anne:** Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.

But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.

**Cece:** Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.

**Anne:** So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something is wrong. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not?

**Cece:** We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.

Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Chang? Marriage & Abuse Escalated

**Cece:** And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.

**Anne:** Not like, gently.

**Cece:** No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.

So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”

**Anne:** You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh.

**Cece:** Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents.

Seeking Help With Anger Management

Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.

And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.

Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.

And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.

And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors.

Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Discovery Day & Realizations

**Anne:** Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material.

**Cece:** So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed.

And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.

But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.

**Anne:** Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?

Wondering What He Is Doing?

**Cece:** Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work, because he was home during the day. And I walked in and I thought, this is weird. And I was like, what the heck is going on?

He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.” And at that point I was like, who, who did I even marry? Who is my husband right now? And I drove back to the school in tears and was totally checked out the rest of the day. I don’t even know how I got through it. That was a big turning point for me, thinking he’s got a serious problem.

**Anne:** Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors.

**CeCe:** It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I think being married to somebody, I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.

**Anne:** And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.

**Cece:** Yeah, that’s true.

Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hopes

**Anne:** Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why didn’t she get out? Be like, she was trying to get help, but she went to a therapist, and the therapist told her to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your emotionally abusive husband will change? What are you telling yourself?

**Cece:** I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.

There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.

But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.

Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change

**Cece:** Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.

**Anne:** We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.

Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.

That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.

Victims Of Emotional Abuse Must Get to Safety First Before Worring About If Their Husband Will Change

**Anne:** How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.

**Cece:** Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die some days so that I could get out of this misery.”

**Anne:** Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?

**Cece:** She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”

https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE

**Anne:** Did she say, you are abused?

**Cece:** Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.

And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change.

More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning

**Cece:** I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.

There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.

I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. He doesn’t like it. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally, of course.

**Anne:** You were resisting.

**Cece:** Yeah.

**Anne:** That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.

Changing Churches & New Hopes

**Cece:** For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I also just. started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.

Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.

Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.

Keeping Busy Waiting To See If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change

**Anne:** So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.

**Cece:** Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.

**Anne:** You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.

**Cece:** Yeah, if I live my life largely separate from him, maybe I can survive. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.

**Anne:** You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.

And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.

Effective Boundaries Protect Women & Children From Emotional Abuse

**Cece:** Yes, this was in combination with when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave, basically. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.

It was like he would say he wanted to, and then he would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.

**Anne:** Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you. Because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. So he actually didn’t want to with you, but he wanted to make that your fault. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change.

**Cece:** Yes, and I figured that out after I got out, looking back. Like, oh wow, that was why he did that. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy, because my first two were girls. It was a time of hope in my life that I’d get to have a son.

It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I was like, you need to do this, because if anything’s a spiritual stronghold.

Another D-Day & Numbness

**Cece:** He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.

So it was this new level of having to accept it. Even though it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.

And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.

Will He Change: Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories

**Cece:** I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.

And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.

**Anne:** Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change.

**Cece:** I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, but some of them might want to change.

**Anne:** So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.

**Cece:** Right.

**Anne:** That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.

A Chandelier Falls: Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR

**Cece:** Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.

**Anne:** Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.

**Cece:** Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it.

This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.

**Anne:** This is with a CSAT, a Certified Addiction Therapist.

**Cece:** Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.

**Anne:** This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest.

Will My Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Disclosure & Accountability

**Cece:** I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.

We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.

**Anne:** Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.

**Cece:** That’s possible.

**Anne:** Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?

**CeCe:** I don’t know.

**Anne:** That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change.

I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed, Can My Abusive Husband Change?

**Anne:** But instead, he has to lie again, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material.

So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.

**Cece:** That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.

So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.

**Anne:** Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.

**Cece:** It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he had a relapse. He did like a drip disclosure, which means he told me part of the truth. And then he said, uh, actually, I lied to you. There was more and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic for me.

Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s

**Cece:** I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.

**Anne:** It sounded as if he could change.

**Cece:** Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, no, I’m not doing this. And kicked him out of our room. I told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.

I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”

He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.

Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out

**Cece:** I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I had left my body at that point. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.

My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with a CSAT, and he went to an individual counselor.

When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”

**Anne:** If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t

**Cece:** It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change.

The Church’s Role Turns To Blame

**Cece:** But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.

And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”

I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.

It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.

**Anne:** What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

**Cece:** I was thinking I am all ears at this point.

**Anne:** If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The coaches at BTR.ORG are incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety

**Anne:** How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?

I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”

I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.

And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Letting Go of Hoping My Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change and Finding My Way Back to Church

**Cece:** It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. But it was an easy decision to say they are not trauma informed. They’re not giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well. Look at Job and how he suffered, and you need to be like him. And I was just done at that point.

I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.

But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.

I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.

My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him”

**Cece:** Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.

**Anne:** What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not.

**Cece:** Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.

**Anne:** How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.

**Cece:** Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.

I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.

Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke

**Cece:** I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”

I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.

That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary.

After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.

Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles

**Cece:** And I started using the time to refresh myself, listen to helpful resources, and meditate on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.

And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.

And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.

So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.

Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation

**Cece:** It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.

**Anne:** My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change.

**Cece:** Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”

It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”

My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.

Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation

**Cece:** He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.

**Anne:** We teach how to tell if your husband will change in the Living Free Workshop and the Message Workshop.

**Cece:** Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.

I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”

He would guilt me like, you’re breaking up our family. I would just go and cry before. But I just had sudden clarity, like he’s breaking up our family. And I would tell him that, I would say, “You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re the one breaking up our family, and you know it.” And he just stopped after that. It was crazy what happened when I actually stepped into my power and started calling a spade a spade.

Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries By Letting Him Change or Not

**Cece:** We got to Christmas. It was peaceful. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He actually bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. But God provided, my mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.

But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. My kids, I can just send them outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there.

I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.

**Anne:** Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will.

Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse

**Cece:** You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.

**Anne:** If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

**Cece:** I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.

**Anne:** I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change.

**CeCe:** Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.

**Anne:** Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.

**Cece:** Thank you so much.

How To Tell If Your Husband Is Going To Change and Stop Emotionally Abusing You — **Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change – Cece’s Story** Jan 07, 2025
One of the most frequent questions women ask is, *“How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change?” Whether* from secret pornography use, infidelity, emotional abuse, or other devastating forms of relational abuse, women want to know if there’s a reason to keep holding out.

The answer is yes, your husband can change. Will he? *That is up to him.* To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take thisfree emotional abuse quiz.

Do you have to wait around and be abused while he figures out if he wants to join you and your children? *No. And you shouldn’t.* Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t advocate divorce or staying in the marriage: **we advocate for safety.**

Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce the abuser, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further abuse. Boundaries are not statements, requests, or ultimatums. They are courageous actions that women take to separate themselves and their children from abusive behavior.

BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands

For women who choose to stay married, but courageously separate themselves from abusive behavior, the question remains: How to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change? Anne Blythe has outlined 9 Signs of Change that can help victims gauge whether their husband is safe or becoming safe.

We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about emotional abuse and how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change.

Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone. Join women all over the world for validation, community, and support as you process your trauma and begin healing.

Transcript: Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change

**Anne:** Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Cece is here to share her story about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Welcome Cece.

**Cece:** Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.

**Anne:** I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. I’m so honored to talk to you about how to tell if your emotionally abusive husband can change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning when you met your husband. Can you talk about how you felt at first?

**Cece:** So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.

Was He Abused By His Girlfriend? Or Was She Just Protecting Herself?

**Cece:** And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.

**Anne:** Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?

**Cece:** I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…

**Anne:** The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.

**Cece:** Right.

**Anne:** A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.

**Cece:** That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.

Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.

Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.

Cece’s Early Relationship & Red Flags

**Cece:** I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”

I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”

And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”

“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.

**Anne:** It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive.

**CeCe:** right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.

And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match.

Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring

**Anne:** Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.

But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.

**Cece:** Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.

**Anne:** So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something is wrong. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not?

**Cece:** We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.

Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Chang? Marriage & Abuse Escalated

**Cece:** And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.

**Anne:** Not like, gently.

**Cece:** No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.

So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”

**Anne:** You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh.

**Cece:** Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents.

Seeking Help With Anger Management

Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.

And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.

Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.

And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.

And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors.

Can Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Discovery Day & Realizations

**Anne:** Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material.

**Cece:** So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed.

And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.

But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.

**Anne:** Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?

Wondering What He Is Doing?

**Cece:** Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work, because he was home during the day. And I walked in and I thought, this is weird. And I was like, what the heck is going on?

He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.” And at that point I was like, who, who did I even marry? Who is my husband right now? And I drove back to the school in tears and was totally checked out the rest of the day. I don’t even know how I got through it. That was a big turning point for me, thinking he’s got a serious problem.

**Anne:** Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors.

**CeCe:** It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I think being married to somebody, I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.

**Anne:** And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.

**Cece:** Yeah, that’s true.

Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hopes

**Anne:** Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why didn’t she get out? Be like, she was trying to get help, but she went to a therapist, and the therapist told her to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your emotionally abusive husband will change? What are you telling yourself?

**Cece:** I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.

There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.

But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.

Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change

**Cece:** Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.

**Anne:** We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.

Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.

That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.

Victims Of Emotional Abuse Must Get to Safety First Before Worring About If Their Husband Will Change

**Anne:** How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.

**Cece:** Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die some days so that I could get out of this misery.”

**Anne:** Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?

**Cece:** She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”

https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE

**Anne:** Did she say, you are abused?

**Cece:** Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.

And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change.

More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning

**Cece:** I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.

There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.

I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. He doesn’t like it. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally, of course.

**Anne:** You were resisting.

**Cece:** Yeah.

**Anne:** That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.

Changing Churches & New Hopes

**Cece:** For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I also just. started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.

Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.

Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.

Keeping Busy Waiting To See If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change

**Anne:** So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.

**Cece:** Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.

**Anne:** You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.

**Cece:** Yeah, if I live my life largely separate from him, maybe I can survive. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.

**Anne:** You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.

And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.

Effective Boundaries Protect Women & Children From Emotional Abuse

**Cece:** Yes, this was in combination with when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave, basically. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.

It was like he would say he wanted to, and then he would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.

**Anne:** Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you. Because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. So he actually didn’t want to with you, but he wanted to make that your fault. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change.

**Cece:** Yes, and I figured that out after I got out, looking back. Like, oh wow, that was why he did that. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy, because my first two were girls. It was a time of hope in my life that I’d get to have a son.

It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I was like, you need to do this, because if anything’s a spiritual stronghold.

Another D-Day & Numbness

**Cece:** He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.

So it was this new level of having to accept it. Even though it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.

And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.

Will He Change: Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories

**Cece:** I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.

And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.

**Anne:** Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change.

**Cece:** I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, but some of them might want to change.

**Anne:** So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.

**Cece:** Right.

**Anne:** That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.

A Chandelier Falls: Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR

**Cece:** Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.

**Anne:** Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.

**Cece:** Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it.

This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.

**Anne:** This is with a CSAT, a Certified Addiction Therapist.

**Cece:** Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.

**Anne:** This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest.

Will My Emotionally Abusive Husband Change? Disclosure & Accountability

**Cece:** I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.

We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.

**Anne:** Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.

**Cece:** That’s possible.

**Anne:** Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?

**CeCe:** I don’t know.

**Anne:** That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change.

I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed, Can My Abusive Husband Change?

**Anne:** But instead, he has to lie again, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material.

So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.

**Cece:** That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.

So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.

**Anne:** Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.

**Cece:** It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he had a relapse. He did like a drip disclosure, which means he told me part of the truth. And then he said, uh, actually, I lied to you. There was more and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic for me.

Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s

**Cece:** I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.

**Anne:** It sounded as if he could change.

**Cece:** Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, no, I’m not doing this. And kicked him out of our room. I told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.

I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”

He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.

Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out

**Cece:** I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I had left my body at that point. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.

My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with a CSAT, and he went to an individual counselor.

When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”

**Anne:** If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t

**Cece:** It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change.

The Church’s Role Turns To Blame

**Cece:** But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.

And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”

I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.

It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.

**Anne:** What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

**Cece:** I was thinking I am all ears at this point.

**Anne:** If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The coaches at BTR.ORG are incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety

**Anne:** How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?

I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”

I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.

And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Letting Go of Hoping My Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change and Finding My Way Back to Church

**Cece:** It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. But it was an easy decision to say they are not trauma informed. They’re not giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well. Look at Job and how he suffered, and you need to be like him. And I was just done at that point.

I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.

But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.

I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.

My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him”

**Cece:** Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.

**Anne:** What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not.

**Cece:** Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.

**Anne:** How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.

**Cece:** Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.

I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.

Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke

**Cece:** I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”

I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.

That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary.

After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.

Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles

**Cece:** And I started using the time to refresh myself, listen to helpful resources, and meditate on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.

And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.

And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.

So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.

Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation

**Cece:** It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.

**Anne:** My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change.

**Cece:** Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”

It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”

My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.

Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation

**Cece:** He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.

**Anne:** We teach how to tell if your husband will change in the Living Free Workshop and the Message Workshop.

**Cece:** Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.

I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”

He would guilt me like, you’re breaking up our family. I would just go and cry before. But I just had sudden clarity, like he’s breaking up our family. And I would tell him that, I would say, “You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re the one breaking up our family, and you know it.” And he just stopped after that. It was crazy what happened when I actually stepped into my power and started calling a spade a spade.

Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries By Letting Him Change or Not

**Cece:** We got to Christmas. It was peaceful. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He actually bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. But God provided, my mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.

But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. My kids, I can just send them outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there.

I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.

**Anne:** Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will.

Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse

**Cece:** You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.

**Anne:** If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

**Cece:** I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.

**Anne:** I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change.

**CeCe:** Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.

**Anne:** Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.

**Cece:** Thank you so much.

When My Husband Apologizes, How Do I Tell If It's Genuine? — **When Your Husband Apologizes – How To Know If It’s Genuine** Dec 31, 2024
If your husband betrayed you, and your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine?

Do you need support? Check out our Group Session Schedule.

I received a letter from my ex claiming he wanted to make restitution. But instead of acknowledging the years and years of lies, betrayal, and emotional abuse, he only wanted to make restitution for one week. If your husband apologizes, but you doubt his sincerity, this will help you figure out if his apology is sincere.

Transcript: When Your Husband Apologizes, How Do You Know If It’s Genuine?

**Anne:** So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologizes. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.

It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.

Escalating Abuse When Your Husband Apologizes And Tries to Make Restitution

**Anne:** He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.

Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.

Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day he tries to make restitution for. When my husband apologizes. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.

He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.

The Turning Point: Legoland Incident

**Anne:** That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.

I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.

The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.

I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.

I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.

Understanding Restitution vs. Forgiveness When Your Husband Apologizes

Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.

My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.

He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.

And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.

Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.

It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.

The Reality of Separation and Evil

**Anne:** There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.

One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.

Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this letter, where my husband apologizes.

Analogies to Understand Abuse

**Anne:** The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.

I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?

I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.

The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.

When Your Husband Apologizes: Analyzing Its Meaning

**Anne:** So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.

There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.

If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.

Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.

Your Husband Apologizes With A $300 Check: A Token Gesture

**Anne:** I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.

I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.

https://youtu.be/joi92r4w93k

So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though my husband apologizes. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.

So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.

Abusiveness at Betrayal Trauma Recovery includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.

When Your Husband Apologizes, Observe His Character

**Anne:** At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. With BTR over the years, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.

What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.

Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.

He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?

The Illusion of Change: Performative Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.

This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything, even though my husband apologized. It doesn’t talk about abuse, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right?

It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.

He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.

So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

When Husband Apologizes As A Weapon

**Anne:** Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.

One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologizes in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”

So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.

Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.

They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.

The True Nature of Abusive Character

**Anne:** Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.

We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.

I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. He performs a performance, so my husband apologizes. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.

Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.

What True Repentance Looks Like When Your Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because your husband apologizes. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.

Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. As that tree grows and grows. Until it is the size it once was, which would literally take 30 years. That is what restitution looks like. When I receive this letter, I have peace in my heart that I knew I was doing the right thing.

The Alternate Reality Of The Abuser

**Anne:** I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.

I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.

And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.

Validating Boundaries and Moving Forward When Your Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.

It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.

In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else?

I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

Is His Apology Really Genuine? — **When Your Husband Apologizes – How To Know If It’s Genuine** Dec 31, 2024
If your husband betrayed you, and your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine?

Do you need support? Check out our Group Session Schedule.

I received a letter from my ex claiming he wanted to make restitution. But instead of acknowledging the years and years of lies, betrayal, and emotional abuse, he only wanted to make restitution for one week. If your husband apologizes, but you doubt his sincerity, this will help you figure out if his apology is sincere.

Transcript: When Your Husband Apologizes, How Do You Know If It’s Genuine?

**Anne:** So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologizes. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.

It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.

Escalating Abuse When Your Husband Apologizes And Tries to Make Restitution

**Anne:** He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.

Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.

Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day he tries to make restitution for. When my husband apologizes. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.

He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.

The Turning Point: Legoland Incident

**Anne:** That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.

I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.

The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.

I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.

I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.

Understanding Restitution vs. Forgiveness When Your Husband Apologizes

Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.

My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.

He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.

And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.

Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.

It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.

The Reality of Separation and Evil

**Anne:** There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.

One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.

Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this letter, where my husband apologizes.

Analogies to Understand Abuse

**Anne:** The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.

I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?

I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.

The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.

When Your Husband Apologizes: Analyzing Its Meaning

**Anne:** So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.

There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.

If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.

Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.

Your Husband Apologizes With A $300 Check: A Token Gesture

**Anne:** I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.

I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.

https://youtu.be/joi92r4w93k

So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though my husband apologizes. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.

So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.

Abusiveness at Betrayal Trauma Recovery includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.

When Your Husband Apologizes, Observe His Character

**Anne:** At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. With BTR over the years, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.

What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.

Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.

He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?

The Illusion of Change: Performative Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.

This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything, even though my husband apologized. It doesn’t talk about abuse, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right?

It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.

He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.

So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

When Husband Apologizes As A Weapon

**Anne:** Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.

One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologizes in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”

So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.

Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.

They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.

The True Nature of Abusive Character

**Anne:** Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.

We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.

I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. He performs a performance, so my husband apologizes. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.

Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.

What True Repentance Looks Like When Your Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because your husband apologizes. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.

Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. As that tree grows and grows. Until it is the size it once was, which would literally take 30 years. That is what restitution looks like. When I receive this letter, I have peace in my heart that I knew I was doing the right thing.

The Alternate Reality Of The Abuser

**Anne:** I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.

I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.

And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.

Validating Boundaries and Moving Forward When Your Husband Apologizes

**Anne:** I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.

It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.

In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else?

I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

Red Flags Of An Abusive Therapist — **Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Amy’s Story** Dec 24, 2024
Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of.

Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of *Prayed Upon*, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For

**Anne:** Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology.

Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, *Prayed Upon*, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy.

We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy.

**Amy:** Hi, it’s so good to be here.

**Anne:** We have comedy in common.

When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening.

**Amy:** Oh, interesting.

**Anne:** I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma.

**Amy:** Yes.

**Anne:** So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today.

**Amy:** Yeah.

**Anne:** Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims.

The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist

**Anne:** So let’s start with your story.

**Amy:** Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist.

He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa.

Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags.

**Anne:** At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process?

**Amy:** In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs

**Amy:** I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off.

But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward.

So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet.

**Anne:** Because we reject victim blaming here at BTR.ORG, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed?

**Amy:** Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice.

**Anne:** Right, so that’s coercion, right?

**Amy:** Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it.

**Anne:** Right, and it’s coercion.

**Amy:** It is coercion.

**Anne:** This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. These were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair.

I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.”

**Anne:** He was married at the time?

**Amy:** Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old.

**Anne:** Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yes.

**Anne:** And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then.

**Amy:** After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam.

**Anne:** The pastor’s wife?

https://youtu.be/jUZiLsuSFNU

Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior

**Amy:** Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions.

**Anne:** What?

**Amy:** Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy.

**Anne:** Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means.

**Anne:** There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.”

Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time.

**Amy:**Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it.

**Anne:** Absolutely.

Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist.

I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.”

And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim.

**Anne:** Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness.

**Amy:** Oh yeah.

**Anne:** When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward.

**Amy:** I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude.

Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With”: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again.

**Anne:** I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse.

So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you.

Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave

**Amy:** That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.”

And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen.

And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me.

**Anne:** Exactly.

**Amy:** And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you.

**Anne:** You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically?

Wanting To Escape But Manipulated

**Amy:** Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape.

**Anne:** I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this.

**Amy:** Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior.

Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation.

**Anne:** And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation.

Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me

**Amy:** Yes, it’s like who else is there?

**Anne:** Mm hmm.

**Amy:** He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and …

**Anne:** Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically?

**Amy:** Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel.

**Anne:** Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong.

**Amy:** Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say.

**Anne:** Also very creepy.

**Amy:** Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse.

I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient.

Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it.

**Anne:** When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one.

**Amy:** No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body.

**Anne:** And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath.

And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister.

So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be.

Intentional Abuse & Isolation From Husband, Are Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Anne:** I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused.

That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly.

**Amy:** Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another warning sign of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him.

He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right.

Not Charging Is A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him.

**Anne:** With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. It is a warning sign if they stop charging them. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client.

**Amy:** Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person.

**Anne:** I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them.

The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign.

**Amy:** Right.

**Anne:** defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted.

**Amy:** An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you.

Therapist’s Physical Advances A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end.

He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate.

Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed.

I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process that is something to look for if you think you have an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all.

Resistance & Confusion Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Anne:** And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time.

**Amy:** Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.”

And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. Feeling like you can’t go to a different therapist is a warning sign. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave.

So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me.

**Anne:** Oh, that’s awesome.

**Amy:** Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours.

**Anne:** See, that is another warning sign of an abusive therapist. They go over time.

**Amy:** Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.”

And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.”

Emotional Attachment & Voicemails Trying To Get Me Back

**Amy:** Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time.

Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return.

That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun.

It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep.

Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Evil Intentions

**Amy:** I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end.

**Anne:** I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on.

We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Anne:** I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.”

**Amy:** Right, I say rationalizing.

Surviving & Seeking The Support To Leave

**Amy:** That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it.

**Anne:** Yes.

**Amy:** The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs.

But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license.

**Anne:** Hmm.

**Amy:** I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away.

Civil Malpractice Lawsuit Was Successful, But Not Really Justice

**Amy:** Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs earlier. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges.

But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that.

**Anne:** That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news.

Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming.

Common Patterns of Abusive Therapists

**Anne:** Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see?

**Amy:** Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see that I’m dealing with an abusive therapist.

So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed by an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one.

There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive.

**Anne:** That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her.

**Amy:** Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over.

You Are Not Alone & It’s Not Your Fault

**Amy:** You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you.

It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion.

**Anne:** That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making it seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on.

Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t.

**Amy:** Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened.

Watch Out For These Abusive Therapist Red Flags

**Amy:** It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself.

**Anne:** Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time.

The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for abusive therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time.

**Amy:** There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple.

**Anne:** A hundred percent, and almost every addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know.

Finding The Right Therapist Can Be Difficult

**Amy:** When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart.

**Amy:** If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to.

**Anne:** Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why.

**Amy:** Yeah, you don’t owe them anything.

**Anne:** Yes, you owe them zero things.

**Amy:** It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words.

**Anne:** But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close.

At BTR.ORG The Coaches Understand

**Anne:** And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them.

Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag.

**Amy:** I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you.

You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it.

**Anne:** Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them.

Having Hope & Yet Realistic Expectations

**Amy:** Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave.

**Anne:** It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. Here at BTR.ORG, we’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm.

And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy.

Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope.

**Amy:** That’s very important, yes.

**Anne:** At BTR.ORG, we might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve.

Therapists & Re-Traumatization Challenges

**Amy:** Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible.

Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it.

**Anne:** I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it.

Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself.

That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you.

Finding Someone To Talk To That Understands Abuse

**Anne:** Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways.

**Amy:** I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial.

The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it.

They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand.

**Anne:** Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer.

Challenges In Getting Help After Being Abused By A Therapist

**Anne:** It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session.

Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand.

**Amy:** I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing,

**Anne:** And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation.

**Amy:** Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone.

Needing To Reach Out For Help & Finding Safety

**Amy:** For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help.

However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether.

**Anne:** I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating.

Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you.

Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing.

**Amy:** Yes, thank you for having me.

What Do I Need To Know About The Signs of An Abusive Therapist? — **Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Amy’s Story** Dec 24, 2024
Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of.

Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of *Prayed Upon*, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For

**Anne:** Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology.

Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, *Prayed Upon*, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy.

We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy.

**Amy:** Hi, it’s so good to be here.

**Anne:** We have comedy in common.

When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening.

**Amy:** Oh, interesting.

**Anne:** I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma.

**Amy:** Yes.

**Anne:** So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today.

**Amy:** Yeah.

**Anne:** Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims.

The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist

**Anne:** So let’s start with your story.

**Amy:** Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist.

He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa.

Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags.

**Anne:** At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process?

**Amy:** In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs

**Amy:** I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off.

But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward.

So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet.

**Anne:** Because we reject victim blaming here at BTR.ORG, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed?

**Amy:** Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice.

**Anne:** Right, so that’s coercion, right?

**Amy:** Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it.

**Anne:** Right, and it’s coercion.

**Amy:** It is coercion.

**Anne:** This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. These were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist.

The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair.

I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.”

**Anne:** He was married at the time?

**Amy:** Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old.

**Anne:** Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yes.

**Anne:** And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then.

**Amy:** After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam.

**Anne:** The pastor’s wife?

https://youtu.be/jUZiLsuSFNU

Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior

**Amy:** Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions.

**Anne:** What?

**Amy:** Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy.

**Anne:** Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means.

**Anne:** There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.”

Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time.

**Amy:**Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it.

**Anne:** Absolutely.

Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist.

I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.”

And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim.

**Anne:** Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness.

**Amy:** Oh yeah.

**Anne:** When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward.

**Amy:** I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude.

Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With”: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again.

**Anne:** I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse.

So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you.

Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave

**Amy:** That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.”

And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen.

And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me.

**Anne:** Exactly.

**Amy:** And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you.

**Anne:** You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically?

Wanting To Escape But Manipulated

**Amy:** Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape.

**Anne:** I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this.

**Amy:** Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior.

Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation.

**Anne:** And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation.

Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me

**Amy:** Yes, it’s like who else is there?

**Anne:** Mm hmm.

**Amy:** He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and …

**Anne:** Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically?

**Amy:** Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel.

**Anne:** Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong.

**Amy:** Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say.

**Anne:** Also very creepy.

**Amy:** Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse.

I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient.

Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it.

**Anne:** When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one.

**Amy:** No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body.

**Anne:** And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath.

And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister.

So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be.

Intentional Abuse & Isolation From Husband, Are Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Anne:** I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused.

That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly.

**Amy:** Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another warning sign of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him.

He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right.

Not Charging Is A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him.

**Anne:** With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. It is a warning sign if they stop charging them. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client.

**Amy:** Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person.

**Anne:** I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them.

The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign.

**Amy:** Right.

**Anne:** defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted.

**Amy:** An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you.

Therapist’s Physical Advances A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist

**Amy:** I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end.

He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate.

Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed.

I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process that is something to look for if you think you have an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all.

Resistance & Confusion Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist

**Anne:** And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time.

**Amy:** Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.”

And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. Feeling like you can’t go to a different therapist is a warning sign. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave.

So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me.

**Anne:** Oh, that’s awesome.

**Amy:** Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours.

**Anne:** See, that is another warning sign of an abusive therapist. They go over time.

**Amy:** Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.”

And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.”

Emotional Attachment & Voicemails Trying To Get Me Back

**Amy:** Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time.

Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return.

That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun.

It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep.

Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Evil Intentions

**Amy:** I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end.

**Anne:** I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Amy:** Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on.

We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist.

**Anne:** I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.”

**Amy:** Right, I say rationalizing.

Surviving & Seeking The Support To Leave

**Amy:** That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it.

**Anne:** Yes.

**Amy:** The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs.

But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license.

**Anne:** Hmm.

**Amy:** I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away.

Civil Malpractice Lawsuit Was Successful, But Not Really Justice

**Amy:** Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs earlier. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges.

But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that.

**Anne:** That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news.

Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming.

Common Patterns of Abusive Therapists

**Anne:** Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see?

**Amy:** Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see that I’m dealing with an abusive therapist.

So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed by an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one.

There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive.

**Anne:** That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her.

**Amy:** Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over.

You Are Not Alone & It’s Not Your Fault

**Amy:** You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you.

It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion.

**Anne:** That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making it seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on.

Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t.

**Amy:** Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened.

Watch Out For These Abusive Therapist Red Flags

**Amy:** It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself.

**Anne:** Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time.

The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for abusive therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time.

**Amy:** There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple.

**Anne:** A hundred percent, and almost every addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know.

Finding The Right Therapist Can Be Difficult

**Amy:** When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart.

**Amy:** If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to.

**Anne:** Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why.

**Amy:** Yeah, you don’t owe them anything.

**Anne:** Yes, you owe them zero things.

**Amy:** It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words.

**Anne:** But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close.

At BTR.ORG The Coaches Understand

**Anne:** And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them.

Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag.

**Amy:** I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you.

You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it.

**Anne:** Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them.

Having Hope & Yet Realistic Expectations

**Amy:** Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave.

**Anne:** It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. Here at BTR.ORG, we’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm.

And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy.

Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope.

**Amy:** That’s very important, yes.

**Anne:** At BTR.ORG, we might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve.

Therapists & Re-Traumatization Challenges

**Amy:** Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible.

Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it.

**Anne:** I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it.

Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself.

That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you.

Finding Someone To Talk To That Understands Abuse

**Anne:** Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways.

**Amy:** I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial.

The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it.

They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand.

**Anne:** Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer.

Challenges In Getting Help After Being Abused By A Therapist

**Anne:** It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session.

Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand.

**Amy:** I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing,

**Anne:** And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation.

**Amy:** Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone.

Needing To Reach Out For Help & Finding Safety

**Amy:** For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help.

However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether.

**Anne:** I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating.

Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you.

Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing.

**Amy:** Yes, thank you for having me.

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Recognizing that our marriage ended not because of divorce, but because of abuse and betrayal, can help.

What Is A Sex Addict Called? What You Need To Know Nov 01, 2022

Two wives share the label they gave their husbands. Listen now.

What Happens When Churches Don’t Believe Abuse Victims? – Janice’s Story Oct 25, 2022

Your faith community should be supportive. Too many victims find clergy ignorant, and tragically, abusive.

If Your Husband Filmed You With A Hidden Camera, You’re Not Alone Oct 18, 2022

If your husband filmed you with a hidden camera, you could be a victim of trafficking.

The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson Oct 11, 2022

Have you been told to forgive an emotionally abusive husband? Here's what you need to know.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse? – Lorelai’s Story Oct 04, 2022

Abusers aim to confuse us. Almost all abuse victims don't recognize it at first.

Distribution of Intimate Images Without Consent With Laila Mickelwait Sep 27, 2022

Laila MIckelwait exposes PornHub for what it really is - a cesspool of abuse videos. Learn how you can help take it down today.

How To Set Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Sep 20, 2022

If you've been asking your husband to stop but he keeps doing it, this will help.

What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse? Sep 13, 2022

If you're a woman of faith, here's a list of scriptures that will help you know what to do next.

Strategies For Divorcing An Abusive Husband With Wendy Hernandez Sep 06, 2022

Are you feel overwhelmed at the thought of hiring a lawyer or fighting for custody?

What You Need To Know Before You Order Christian Intimacy Books Aug 30, 2022

Here's how to deconstruct some of the toxic information in mainstream Christian intimacy books.

Can You Emancipate Yourself From One Parent? – Tiffany’s Story Aug 23, 2022

"Can you emancipate yourself from one parent?" Tiffany shares how she emancipated herself. Here's what you can learn from her story.

The Truth About Clergy Misconduct Aug 16, 2022

When clergy use their position of authority to take advantage of trust, they may be committing clergy misconduct. Learn more.

This Is Why Emotional Abuse Is So Hard To See – Macie’s Story Aug 09, 2022

Emotional abuse is invisible, especially when the abusive man never yells, screams or says "mean" things. This is why emotional abuse is so hard to see.

How Can We Protect Children Online? Important Steps To Take Aug 02, 2022

Accidental exposure to inappropriate online material can traumatize children, learn how you can help.

Is Emotional Abuse Considered Domestic Violence? Evie’s Story Jul 26, 2022

Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes. Here's why sharing your emotional abuse story can help you heal. Especially when others don't understand.

How To Overcome The Long Term Effects of Emotional Abuse In Marriage – 3 Steps Jul 19, 2022

During a crisis, domestic abuse escalates. Women can minimize the effects of the abuse; BTR can help.

What Is Covert Emotional Abuse? Jul 12, 2022

He may not hit you, yell at you, or seem like a mean, angry bully - but covert emotional abuse still leaves invisible scars.

How To Cope With Betrayal Trauma – 4 Self Care Strategies Jul 05, 2022

When a woman discovers her husband's infidelity, learning how to cope with betrayal trauma is a daily struggle. Here are 4 self care strategies.

3 Signs of Spiritual Abuse To Look Out For – Liz’s Story Jun 28, 2022

Spiritual abuse victims may feel crazy, forgotten by deity, and alone. Spot 3 signs of spiritual abuse.

The Best Books About Emotional Abuse In Marriage Jun 21, 2022

If you're wondering if your husband is emotionally abusive and you're looking for the best books about emotional abuse, here's what you need to know.

The BEST Resource For Partners of Sex Addicts Jun 14, 2022

Partners of sex addicts often wonder where to turn for help. In this episode of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, women share which resources helped them.

The Truth About The Causes of Sexual Addiction – Cindy’s Story Jun 07, 2022

Tragically, the sex addiction therapy community is focused on the causes of sexual addiction, but here's what they get wrong. Here's the truth you need to know.

What Does The Bible Say About Boundaries In Marriage May 31, 2022

Are you wondering, "What does the bible say about boundaries in marriage?" Anne Blythe, M.Ed, takes victims through bible scriptures that support victim safety.

What To Do When Your Child Watches Inappropriate Things May 24, 2022

Victims of betrayal and abuse can teach their children the truth about pornography.

Self Care After Emotional Abuse: Here’s How To Heal May 17, 2022

Self care after emotional abuse is challenging. As you learn to live your life again, here are some important things to consider.

The Truth About Institutional Abuse – Haley’s Story May 10, 2022

If you’re a woman who has experienced something that would fit the definition of institutional abuse, you're not alone. Here's what other women share about it.

Is My Husband Addicted to…? Here’s How To Tell May 03, 2022

If you're wondering, "Is my husband addicted to..." here's how to determine the truth. AND what to do about it.

If You’ve Just Discovered Your Christian Husband’s Sexual Addiction, It’s Not Your Fault Apr 26, 2022

If you've just discovered your Christian husband's sexual addiction, before you do counseling or sexual addiction recovery. Here's what you need to know.

How To Know If Your Husband Has A Sex Addiction Apr 19, 2022

If your divorce was caused by his emotional abuse, it's important to take it slow when dating our ex. Here's what you need to know.

Does Your Husband Have An Anger Problem? 10 Questions To Know If It’s Abuse Apr 12, 2022

Does your husband's anger scare you? Determine if your husband's anger is actually an abuse issue.

The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources For Women Apr 05, 2022

You deserve the BEST betrayal trauma resources on your journey to emotional safety.

When My Husband Weaponized Codependency To Hide The Truth – Melinda’s Story Mar 29, 2022

Has your husband (or his therapist) weaponized codependency language to harm you? If so, here's what you need to know about how codependency harms victims.

Here’s Why Pornography Is A Human Rights Issue With Dr. Gail Dines Mar 22, 2022

Wonder why your husband's pornography use is so damaging? Here's why.

Teen Dating Violence: How To Help Your Daughter Avoid An Abusive Boyfriend Mar 15, 2022

Are you hoping to help your daughter avoid teen dating violence, even if it's "just" in the form of emotional and psychological abuse? What you need to know.

How Fundamentalism and Patriarchy Fuel Abuse – Emily’s Story Mar 08, 2022

If you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, you may be all-too familiar with how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse.

Recovery After Betrayal: What You Need To Know Mar 01, 2022

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Escaping The Fog Of Marital Rape – Isabelle’s Story Feb 22, 2022

Isabelle is a survivor of marital rape, highlights the challenge of recognizing abuse and the crucial need to get the right type of support.

Why Does My Stomach Hurt During Sex? 5 Possible Reasons Feb 15, 2022

Sexual abuse causes pelvic and sexual pain. Learn how to identify sexual abuse in your marriage and begin healing today.

How to Use Art Therapy For Trauma – Corrine’s Story Feb 08, 2022

When it's too hard to find the words to express your trauma and pain, art therapy is a powerful tool to process the betrayal and emotional abuse.

My Husband Is Always Angry: Here’s How I Feel About That Feb 01, 2022

Anger helps victims of betrayal and abuse identify abusive behavior and set boundaries.

Me Too Examples – Jasmine’s Story Jan 25, 2022

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How To Help Your Daughter In An Abusive Relationship Jan 18, 2022

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What Does The Bible Say About Cheating Husbands? – Lisa’s Story Jan 11, 2022

If you're wondering, what does the Bible say about cheating husbands? Here's what you need to know.

Should I Prepare For Divorce? 3 Things To Consider Jan 04, 2022

Betrayal and abuse make preparing for divorce a necessity for victims. Even when you are hoping that he decides to change, educating yourself is key.

Cleanbrowsing DNS – How One Mom Protected Her Children Online Dec 28, 2021

Creating a porn-free environment is an absolute necessity for every family.

Can In-Home Separation Help Me? – Lindsay’s Story Dec 21, 2021

Women looking for emotional safety you may choose an in-home separation. If you’ve been considering this, listen to Lindsay’s experience.

Is Sex Addiction Marriage Counseling Right For Us? What You Need To Know Dec 14, 2021

You've discovered your husband's secret infidelity. What to know BEFORE you go to couple therapy.

Dating After Narcissistic Abuse – 9 Things To Look For Dec 07, 2021

Here's your guide to dating after narcissistic abuse, shared by Kate*, a survivor.

Why Do I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating On Me? – Laurie’s Story Nov 30, 2021

You have an uncomfortable, nagging dread, thinking, "I feel like my husband is cheating on me." If you're thinking this, here's what you need to know.

How To Rebuild Confidence To Reenter The Workforce – Brittany’s Story Nov 23, 2021

Many betrayed women find themselves forced to enter the workforce, sometimes for the first time. Here's how to rebuild confidence and reenter the workforce.

Is Infidelity Abuse? What Most Therapists Won’t Tell You Nov 16, 2021

Is infidelity abuse? Has he lied to you? Emotionally manipulated you? Here's how to know.

How to Deal with Bad Body Image Days After Betrayal – Katherine’s Story Nov 09, 2021

After you discover your husband's infidelity, here are 3 things to get you through a rough body image day.

Does Shame Cause My Husband To Be Unfaithful Online? The Truth Nov 02, 2021

Does shame cause your husband's infidelity? No, learn the real reasons he's hurting you.

Find Your Voice – How To Heal After Emotional Abuse Oct 26, 2021

Emotional abuse makes us feel small. You CAN find your voice and heal from emotional abuse.

How to Begin Healing Trauma From Childhood Sexual Abuse – Reagan’s Story Oct 19, 2021

Women often try to heal trauma from childhood sexual abuse while also dealing with their husband's emotional abuse. What you need to know.

Stages of Anger After Infidelity – How Anger Protects You Oct 12, 2021

I went through so many stages of anger after infidelity. Here's what I learned over the years.

Finding Out My Husband Betrayed Me With Men Was Devastating – Savannah’s Story Oct 05, 2021

Discovering my husband betrayed me with men, when I thought he was straight, was so painful. Here's what I learned.

What Does The Bible REALLY Say About Divorce? Sep 28, 2021

When emotional abuse leaves you feeling lost in the darkness, where do you turn for comfort and peace?

Here’s What Makes The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups Online Sep 21, 2021

Looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online? Here are 4 things to help you find the best support for facing your husband's emotional abuse.

Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenn’s Experience Sep 14, 2021

Victims of abuse and betrayal seek safety in many ways: focusing on her own boundaries is the best way to find safety and healing.

How To Teach Your Kids About Healthy Sexuality Sep 07, 2021

Here's one way to equip your children with the tools to understand sexuality in a healthy way.

Signs Of An Abusive Therapist – Dee’s Story Aug 31, 2021

Have you felt uncomfortable, exploited, or abused by your therapist?

Traumatic Bra Shopping Experience? You’re Not Alone Aug 24, 2021

Have you had a traumatic bra shopping experience? Women who've discovered their husband's infidelity often feel traumatized by the idea of shopping for a bra.

Am I Over My Ex? The Best Way To Know Aug 17, 2021

If you're wondering, "Am I over my ex?" The question itself may tell you all you need to know.

Infidelity Counseling Online – Here’s What You Need To Know About Your Husband Aug 10, 2021

Victims of infidelity may think their husbands sexual habits are easy to work out in infidelity counseling. Here's what to know.

Long-Term Effects of Emotional Abuse in Relationships – Florence’s Story Aug 03, 2021

You’re not alone. Women often suffer from the long-term effects of emotional abuse in relationships, especially from their husband. Here’s what to know.

What Does Jesus Say About Abuse? Points From The Bible Jul 27, 2021

If Jesus said, "Agree with Thine adversary quickly, does that mean I should agree with my emotionally abusive husband?"

Is There Hope After Infidelity? – Luna’s Story Jul 20, 2021

Infidelity is one of the most devastating forms of betrayal, leaving women grappling with the question, "Is there hope after infidelity?" Yes. Here's why.

What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? What You Need To Know If Your Husband Is Addicted To Sex Jul 13, 2021

Disclosures do not give victims the safety they deserve - even though it may seem like a good idea, usually victims are just more harmed. Learn why.

Is Healthy Sex After Betrayal Possible? – Maria’s Story Jul 06, 2021

Is healthy sex after betrayal possible? Here's what you need to know.

How To Protect Children From Sexual Abuse with Kimberly Perry Jun 29, 2021

Here's one effective way to protect children from sexual abuse.

Rethinking The Betrayal Trauma Process with Barbara Steffens Jun 22, 2021

If you're wondering how long the betrayal trauma process takes to heal, here's what you need to know.

50 Things You Need To Know About Betrayal Trauma In A Relationship Jun 15, 2021

If you're experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship, here are 50 things to know.

My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story Jun 08, 2021

If your husband won't stop lying, he's likely emotionally or psychologically abusive.

The Best Way to Leave a Narcissist Husband Jun 01, 2021

Here are 4 things to know when you're looking for the best way to leave a narcissist husband.

Unintentional Gaslighting Husband? – Charlotte’s Story May 25, 2021

Here are 5 examples of how he'll use "unintentional" gaslighting to manipulate you.

What Are The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma? May 18, 2021

Listen to the heartbreaking recording of one woman sharing her pain.

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery – BTR.ORG

Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again

Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again

Teenage Trauma & Abuse

Grooming & Exploitation

Finding Safety & New Relationships

He Tells So Many Lies

My Friend Becomes My Partner

Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal

Realizing The Extent Of The Lies

The Pain Of Gaslighting

Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information

Seeking The Truth

He Gives A Full Disclosure

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts

Why Disclose Now?

Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change

Challenges In Counseling

Validation & Healing

What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community

Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again

Reflections On Change & Trust

When His Years of Betrayal In Marriage Harms You

Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education

Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health

Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships

Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion

Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life

There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma

Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma

When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group

There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage

Transcript: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

Inside The Title IX Office

Challenges In Reporting

Classroom Trauma: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

Systemic Issues In Universities

Protective Orders & Legal Challenges

Metaphor Of The Hot Stove: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help?

Power Inequities & Abuse

Victims Just Want To Be Safe

Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Title IX History & Legal Context

Misconceptions About Campus Violence

Due Process Debate

Where Can Abuse Victims Get Help For Their Kids

Perpetrators’ Perspective

Results Of Perpetrator Interviews

Expulsion & Perpetrator Protection: Helping Abuse Victims

Perpetrator’s Continued Abuse

Grooming As Abuse

Institutional Betrayal: When They Refuse To Help Abuse Victims

Hope For Better Support

Anticipating Institutional Responses

Abuse Victims Get Help From Confidential Community Support

Red Flags In Institutional Responses

Misogyny In Handling Cases

Retaliatory Complaints: When You Go For Help And It Gets Worse

Empathy For Perpetrators

Support For Survivors

Why Can’t Abuse Victims Ever Get Help?

Reasonable Consequences For Perpetrators

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You In The Courtroom

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Use Your Own Anger

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy

Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Writing The Living Free & Message Workshops

Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares

Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Scriptural Helps & Safety

Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance

Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe