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Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (One Year Later)
Jul 16, 2024
Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. continues her heartfelt conversation with June from the BTR Community one year after she shared the first part of her story. Here the next chapter of her journey divorcing a narcissist.
If you need support while experiencing narcissistic abuse, learn about BTR Group Sessions here.
This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with June:
Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (THIS EPISODE)
TRANSCRIPT:
June’s One-Year Follow-Up: Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: I checked in with June one year later to see how she was doing. This interview happened one year after the episode you heard last week, but still a long time ago. You’ll hear my today voice popping in from time to time talking about The Living Free Workshop and Message Workshops that I developed years after this time. I actually use these strategies and tools to completely deliver me and my kids from abuse without going to court.
If you didn’t hear the beginning of June’s story last week, listen to that first. It’s called He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one. Then come back and listen to this interview, which we did one year later. Welcome June. It’s been a year since we spoke. How are things going for you one year later?
June: We left off last time going through the court process of the custody issues and the divorce proceedings. We have since concluded at least custody for now because my husband appealed the custody from the family court and he appealed it to the circuit court, which in my state is the next higher court. It took us six to nine months to get into the circuit court to have that case heard.
That was an eye opening experience for me. I feel like we’ve had all of these issues, divorcing a narcissist is horrible. All of this bad behavior, all of this conflict between us and it really hasn’t been between us. It’s been him finding the gray areas in the order and exploiting those in ways that might be small and minor, but when you add them all up, it takes its toll.
Experiences With Her Ex’s Divorce Demands
There shouldn’t be any changes or at least any big changes and get this part over with and we can move on. In the circuit court it was just a different experience. The judge had a lot less patience. The judge labeled the conflict as marital fighting and just conflict between my husband and I rather than abuse. That is very, very problematic. I brought two witnesses.
The judge really didn’t want to hear from them, so he didn’t hear from them at all, which was a problem. I can say that I’m happy with the outcome. For the most part, the custody didn’t change too much. A lot more freedom, discretion and leeway is in the order. In The BTR Community that translates to a lack of boundaries in our new order. I know that is going to be a problem.
It already has been a problem. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. Currently it is just an order for custody. I’m still the primary parent. I have the kids 75% of the time, which is great. I feel that my influence on the kids and having a safe and stable home environment for them and a connected parenting relationship with them is super important.
When they’re going through this, their dad does get a certain amount of days each month and it’s when he wants to see them. He can get a certain amount of days. That creates a bit of a problem.
Husband’s Narcissistic Behavior
Anne: We’re personal friends, so we talk a lot about this. One of the things that surprises me, and I’d like to know how you feel about it, is that so many of the things that your soon to be ex does are just not smart. He doesn’t seem smart at all. He just seems narcissistic, clueless and way more confident in his own abilities than he actually is.
At the same time, he’s able to exploit all these little areas of the law and he actually is really smart at the same time. He is a doctor, he’s not a dummy. How do you reconcile this crazy, nonsensical, irrational behavior and all of the bad choices that he makes with this ability to exploit the law in a way that works for him? This is a huge part of divorcing a narcissist. He’s sort of like this evil genius kind of thing. How do you feel about that?
June: I definitely feel that is such an accurate representation of reality of what is going on. There are times that I feel his chaos and disorganization is really, really to his detriment. Obviously it is to the detriment of the kids. It affects them. It’s chaotic. He can’t show up for appointments on time, he can’t get the kids to where they need to be on time. He won’t return things that they need, important things.
For instance, when has the kids on vacation, the court order says that the kids call me on the middle day at a certain time. Up to this date, I have never received that phone call at a certain time.
Concerns Children’s Safety
He does not let me talk to them. Honestly, as a mother, as a person who he assaulted, as a person that is very well aware of the effects of trauma, abuse, narcissism and how those things all go together and create really the perfect storm. That could be disastrous.
I worry about my kids during those times, I worry that he’s snapped, they are not okay and they’re not safe. I almost feel like it’s happened so much at this point it’s purposeful. He must know that I worry and that’s why he does it, the control. He’s definitely spiraling.
I’ve had several people in the community come and tell me that they have seen problematic behavior from him. People tell me that they have heard things that have happened at his previous workplace. I’ve had two people tell me that they’ve heard that he assaulted a female in his previous workplace. He has since lost his job because he missed several days of work, missed shifts and didn’t show up on time.
There were several other people that complained of his treatment of patients, how he was medically treating them. Some of that is also really an indication of his unhealthiness
Anne: Because with a lot of abusive men, they pick and choose. They’re very together at their job at church, they look really good. At home is when they lose their temper, they don’t lose it anywhere else. It’s a display of control at home. You’re saying his dysfunction is starting to leak out into his public persona?
Narcissistic Dysfunction
June: Yes, the dysfunction definitely is. Now that is something different than the anger and abuse. I even feel like sometimes he uses the dysfunction as a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him. He’s this broken down dad that just wants his kids so much and he’s just floundering without them
Anne: He’s a single dad and it’s so hard for him because he is a victim.
June: Yes, and I feel like that’s very much what’s going on now. On dating sites, for example, He’s on all the dating sites. He clearly says, I’m a single dad. Here’s a bunch of pictures of my kids, and by the way, I have my kids 50/50. Somehow that’s supposed to mean that he is a better dad or people can trust him more,
Anne: But that’s a lie. He doesn’t have them 50/50.
June: That is a lie. He does not have them 50/50.
Anne: Mine says the same thing. He’s got these pictures of him as a dad and he’s also got this Christian for life, I love Jesus stuff going on on his dating profiles. Okay, but he doesn’t obey the commandments, whatever. I think that’s really interesting because if he did start dating someone, they would soon see that he didn’t have them 50/50. He’s really not setting himself up for a good relationship.
June: Exactly right. I think that a lot of these guys see mechanisms that can give them instant trust. Yes, being a Christian is one thing that can give them instant trust. Being a single dad is one thing that can give them instant trust with whoever their next person will be.
Financial Revelations In Divorcing A Narcissist
Another thing that I found very interesting in court this past time is that we were going over support of course, because that’s all wrapped up in custody. He testified that his church, my church, has been paying for his mortgage and car payment and that is almost $2,000 a month. This person is a doctor. He makes $24,000 a month, well over $300,000 a year.
He said the church paid for his expenses because he is so broke. That he cannot even pay for these things. In preparation my lawyer subpoenaed all of his bank records, all of his pay stubs, everything like that, all of the financials. The intern went through it and categorized things by item. It turns out that he has spent thousands of dollars on liquor, hundreds of dollars on pornography.
Anne: When we say liquor, I just want the audience to know that June’s soon to be ex and June are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Alcohol is something they do not do. His clergy is paying his house payment while this man is going out and buying alcohol, which is really, really a big deal.
June: And he had contributed tens of thousands of dollars into his own retirement during this time that the church was paying for his expenses
Anne: Acting like, oh, I’m going through so much help me. Right?
Financial Status Of Narcissistic Husband
June: And my ex-wife took all of my money. Really anyone that has gone through the courts would know. It’s a straight calculation. After this, I became very, very disturbed. I know the process, a little bit of receiving church welfare. My dad was a bishop. He had to help people meet their urgent and emergent needs on occasion. I began to really think, I need to know the story of this.
I need to know how far this went. The bishop was the same bishop that was spiritually abusive to me. This bishop had very, very clearly taken aside. Financially he had even taken a side in this divorce where he chose to support my husband and not me. He is paying these expenses, thousands of dollars a month for these things.
He has really enabled him to continue legal abuse and also continue really unhealthy behaviors and to pay for those.
Anne: If he had been paying you the $2,000 a month, you could have purchased groceries. I mean it’s crazy. Sorry, just for our listeners, steam and fire is coming out of my ears right now.
June: Really if he had just paid his own mortgage and his own car payment, then maybe he would not have as much money to pay his lawyer. Then we could move on and get everything wrapped up and not be in constant legal battle
Anne: And not have to go to the next higher court up and all that business.
Seeking Support For Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Exactly. I became very alarmed, like I said, and as soon as court was over, I began my research. In my research, I reached out to the congregation that he currently attends. The leader of it, a bishop, by this point the previous bishop had been released from that position. A new bishop was put in
Anne: For listeners who are not familiar, all of the clergy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are volunteers. Someone is asked or called to be the leader of the congregation for a period of usually around three to five years. Then a new volunteer is called and it just rotates around. You’re saying that the old bishop was released and a new volunteer bishop was called?
June: Exactly. I felt safe reaching out to this new bishop because he was not the same one that I spoke about on the earlier podcasts who was very spiritually abusive. To this new bishop and to the leader above him, which is a stake president, and to the area authority, the person above him just to get some answers.
I had emailed a couple times with no response and explained the situation in emails. I just wasn’t getting any response. And so I just kept kind of adding more people to these emails, trying to get some sort of answers on how long has this been going on? The thing that really concerned me is that I didn’t verity anything. Because we are married, I am still the property owner on things that the church paid.
Deciding To Meet With New Clergy
I’m still on the loan for the house. I’m still on the loan for the car that is still legally my property and nothing was verified with me. In that process I learned mine and my children’s records had been transferred back to that congregation.
Anne: When June says records, I am so sorry for people who are like, we don’t want to know the workings of your church. The it will help understand the context of why this is such a big deal. That’s why we’re explaining it. The congregations are set up in geographical areas, you do not choose what congregation you go to. It’s called a ward, each congregation has a boundary to it.
You can have your records transferred in or out depending on your situation. What she is saying is that she had her records transferred out with the impending divorce and that the records were back with that congregation where her soon to be ex is going. Where your records are is where you attend church, so you find out that your records are in his congregation.
June: Upon finding that out, I just set up a meeting with the bishop because I figure,
Anne: Oh, he’s my bishop, right? This is my congregation. Yeah, he’s my bishop now.
June: Yes. I set up a meeting, I went and talked to him. I brought up the misuse and misappropriation of fast offerings, which are tithes in a way. It’s like a collection plate in another church or another religion. I brought this up to the bishop.
Meeting With Clergy About Divorcing A Narcissist
I told him I have documentation of the discretionary spending that the church would not approve of. Why is a man that is making $300,000 a year receiving this assistance when I know for a fact that we have people living in dire poverty in the congregation. We met for about an hour. The bishop listened to me.
He stated that he doesn’t know when this started, but that he did make a couple of payments for my husband. He did not verify any of this because he felt like there was a need and he just took him at face value. I also talked to him about the history and the abuse, the betrayal, the trauma, the assault, all of those things. And he was very gracious to listen and we had a very, very good discussion.
I felt very, very hopeful after meeting with him. We talked about how to deal with some of these behaviors of my husband and if this bishop had any interest in doing that because it was never dealt with.
Anne: You mean like a church court or holding boundaries or some things like that?
June: Yes, but now that I’m in the ward and my children’s records are in the ward, how to navigate that situation,
Anne: Especially if you have a protective order.
June: I did., yes. He said he really didn’t know anything about the situation or anything like that. He said that he was more interested in current things that were happening, current abuse. So I described some situations and post-separation abuse, post-divorce abuse is a lot harder to really identify. It can just look like someone just being a jerk to the other parent. Describing what it’s like while divorcing a narcissist is difficult.
Protective Orders & Church Policies While Divorcing A Narcissist
I did describe situations of my husband swearing at me at drop off in exchange, purposely keeping the kids from talking to me. Situations that I would say are very much in this gray area that one or two things by themselves don’t really do anything. I said, I’ve been living this for over two years and I can tell you it’s just repeated abuse. It’s just in a different form. It was very interesting to hear his take on that.
I asked him what kind of training he received for dealing with abuse and trauma. He said that he has the spirit and that’s the training.
Anne: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because narcissists seem like they’re telling the truth and so it unquote feels right. Yes.
June: I tried to gently push back on that a little, and I just said, okay, but you realize that when you gave him this money, you would’ve had that same discernment, the spirit and it didn’t work right. You understand that, and I could see the wheels were turning. I could see that he was thinking about that. I also took in the policy on abuse.
The church has come out with a policy, I think it was in March of 2018, and it’s very, very clear. There’s a very clear directive that abuse is not to be tolerated. That people who come reporting abuse in any form should be believed and that false accusations are just not the norm. In fact, they are very, very rare. And so I really came with that policy in hand
Conversations About Repentance & Church’s Role
Anne: Before you go on, the false accusations are usually from the abuser, right? The abuser is usually saying, I was abused.
June: I could refer to it at different points in our conversation. I said, now that I’m reporting this, is it your intention to look into this and to handle it in a way that is conducive with the church’s own policy? Again, I felt like he probably had good intentions, but he said, well, yes, I’ll bring him in here and I’ll talk to him. Every story has two sides.
Anne: The abuser is never going to be like, oh yeah, I was the abuser. And then he is going to say, okay, then let’s go forward with the policy. If the abuser goes in and says, no, that’s not what happened. She’s the abuser. Then they’re just left confused and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what this policy means now,
June: And this is where I feel like the behaviors of my husband and the acting really come into play.
Anne: You mean his hypocritical slash, I’m the victim slash, I’m a good guy stuff.
June: Yes. I described this actually for the bishop, I said, I was married to this person for over a decade. This always goes the same way. I said, he will come in here and he will say, I’m so sorry, I just feel so horrible and I’m just damaged. I said, then he will start crying, and my husband is a very big guy. To see a grown man cry is shocking. Because it is so shocking, we think, oh my gosh, this is so shocking.
Telling Clergy About Husband’s Narcissism
He must be in complete and utter turmoil. Then because we’re distracted in our thinking and not centering on the subject matter of what we wanted to talk to him about, it kind of gets swept under the rug, and that’s that. I said, I’ve seen him do this so many times
Anne (00:21:23): He also starts blaming you and telling him how abusive you were and all the bad things you did, but if you haven’t listened, she ended up with a night in jail. So I’m sure then he pulls that out. She went to jail.
June (00:21:35): That I kidnapped the kids. Remember the arrest has now been expunged, and so legally I do not have to say that I have been arrested anymore, but usually to build my credibility, I’m very upfront with that. There’s not a lot of shame there for me at all anymore. So I really did tell the bishop that I was very concerned because not only does he come in here and act like this, but he’s also looking like it.
He looks disheveled and remember people are telling me he doesn’t look so good. I said, everything that you’re seeing and that you’re hearing will be telling you that, oh yeah, maybe he does have a plausible story. Maybe this is the truth. That is what I think is so harmful about this situation in particular, is that he is using his own unhealthiness as a means to be able to prove his story.
Advising Clergy To Ask Victim About Repentance
That he is so despondent and just in despair at what has happened when that is not the truth. I was very clear also, I told the bishop, I will be the first person to know of true repentance by my husband. I will be the first person to see it, I will be able to see and clearly be able to identify change behavior.
Anne: If you want to know if someone’s repented, ask the victim.
June: Yes. I got into a really important discussion with him about that, and I’m so glad that I did because I asked him, how do you assess for repentance? How do you assess change in behavior? Do you ask the victim? Do you ask the person that it was directed to? He said, well, yeah, of course we would.
Anne: But you’re like, but they never have have with me.
June: Exactly.
Anne: From all the women in our community. I can’t remember one of them being asked when they’re still married and they’re both in the same congregation. If they’re in a separate congregation, they don’t call the victim.
June: Exactly. I had a really important discussion with him about that. I also said that at one point in the marriage with a previous bishop, this was a completely different bishop that my husband had admitted to infidelity and that we had gone to the bishop. We were trying to work through it. This was sort of at the codependent phase of my process
Anne: When you were doing the codependent stuff.
June: I was doing the codependent thing with my husband and really trying to connect, thinking the more that we could connect, the less that he would have these behaviors.
Anger & Its Legitimacy In Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: The more you attach to your abuser, the less he would abuse you during that stage.
June: We did go to the bishop several years ago, and this bishop actually did call him to a church disciplinary council, and it was very small. It was just talking to a few of the leaders about the nature of the harm that was done. At the time this bishop said, I would invite you to come, but I feel that you’re just too upset and too angry, and there is no place for that there.
Anne: What? There’s no place for the victim to tell her experience.
June: Yes, there’s no place for your anger within the council because it’s a council of love and we want to be able to feel the spirit.
Anne: Oh, you don’t have any right to be angry and your anger is unjustified basically. This is so crazy.
June: I didn’t end up going at all. Like I said, this was several years ago. I didn’t end up going. I relied solely on my husband to tell me what the outcome of that particular event was. He said that the brethren had prayed about it and everyone had the spiritual experience that he was changed and that there was to repentance. I still kind of wonder what actually happened.
Anne: Yeah, you don’t know what went down.
June: I don’t know. I told my current bishop that I felt like that was harmful. The more that I’ve proceeded and progressed in my own healing, the more that I have recognized anger is such a healthy thing.
Understanding Divorcing A Narcissist Issues
Anne: Is totally normal. How else would you be?
June: Exactly. It’s completely normal. And I said it even kept me safe. It kept me safe from being with this person intimately, emotionally, physically, spiritually. It kept me safe at that time, and that is the only thing that kept me safe.
Anne: Yeah, because you sure weren’t doing it.
June: Exactly. Like I said, I didn’t realize it at the time because I was in this codependent model of therapy.
Anne: We’ve all been there.
June: I told this current bishop that the anger that I was labeled with and that being harmful was really, really nothing compared to the harm that I had suffered. In my marital vows being betrayed and in putting my unborn child at risk. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time that my husband was intimate with another person, all of these lies, deceptions, betrayals and, of course, I would be angry.
Of course, I would be so upset and distraught and everything else. We had another discussion about legitimate anger and I said, I don’t see anger as a bad emotion. No emotion is bad. They just have different purposes and different meanings.
Anne: Well, and it also depends on what caused it. If your abusive perceptions of the woman who should make the meal are causing your anger. Then she doesn’t make the meal and that’s why you’re getting mad. The abusive perceptions are what’s causing the anger rather than healthy perceptions.
I think it also depends on if your perceptions are coming from a healthy place or if your perceptions are coming from an entitled, objectification, power, control, and manipulation place too.
Discussion Of Legitimacy Of Anger In Divorce
June: If they come from that place, that means that is abuse. I would say the abuser who’s angry because he’s entitled to a hot meal and the wife didn’t get it together that day and he flies off the handle, that’s abuse. That is past the point of anger into abuse.
Anne: For people who don’t know about abuse, they think, well, they’re both angry. They don’t recognize the difference between the two. Yeah,
June: Exactly. We had another really important discussion of that mechanism of abuse and violence really, and betrayal trauma. I took the time to educate him a little bit on betrayal, trauma on how women feel in this situation and how devastating it is and how expendable if felt.
When the betrayals reached a point for me that my boundary was divorce and separation. Not to mention I was unsafe, I was assaulted and that was just a boundary for me that I had to do what I did. I tried to explain that to him, I felt like it was eye opening. I felt like it was a good conversation.
Anne: It was eye opening for you or him?
June: I felt like it was eye opening for him. I had this conversation about a week ago. It’s difficult to describe what it’s like divorcing a narcissist
Anne: It’s been a week, but my guess is that over time he’ll ponder it and he’ll either move closer to the truth and he’ll get softer toward you and more protective of you, and he’ll set more boundaries around him. Or he’ll get farther away from the truth, start treating you worse and start treating the abuser better. It’s going to go one way or the other.
Church’s Financial Assistance Policies
The more he ponders it, he’s either going to start making excuses for the falsities and dig himself deeper that way, or he’s going to get better. Only time will tell.
June: Exactly. He did say that it’s very clear that he needs to speak with my husband, and he said it’s clear that he does not feel like giving him any more assistance would be appropriate without verifying and looking at his financials closer. It’s hard because in our particular religion, we have these donations set up for the needs of people, and I was always very happy to tithe and to give extra to help meet these needs.
I was under the impression that there was kind of a requirement for this to be temporary, to help people in emergency situations, you get employment somewhere else, take a second job or something like that.
Anne: Or in long-term situations with a widow for example, you would be a good candidate for a long-term situation. You’re a single mom of four. I would be a good candidate. Widows would be good candidates. It’s not that it’s always going to be short-term. There are going to be cases where it’s appropriate to have long-term help, but he’s not one of those guys.
He’s not disabled, he’s not a widow, he’s not mentally or physically disabled except for with his narcissism. He’s a doctor.
Most Painful Time Of Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Exactly. Conversely, when you compare this to the time in our separation that I was so destitute because he had paid nothing in support for almost five months. I had gone to the bishop and asked for a couple of food orders, which the church has a really great welfare program for food where they deliver food to people in local congregations.
I had asked for a couple of orders until wage garnishment could go through, and the Bishop gave me a couple of orders for me and the kids. Then all of a sudden cut me off completely and said, you don’t need this anymore. I’m not giving it to you anymore. I still hadn’t received any child support checks. I still hadn’t received any sort of support. The despair that I felt at that time when that happened is still so painful.
It is still one of the most painful feelings that I could describe. I didn’t survive because the church helped me. I survived in spite of them not helping me. That has hurt me for years.
Anne: When they’re simultaneously helping your abuser.
June: Yes.
Anne: Obviously not cutting him off.
June: No, I tried to blow the whistle in my local congregation. At the same time I was doing this, I had also called church headquarters, got the name of someone that I could speak to in the auditing department, and I shared my story with them. They were horrified about my story.
Anne: That’s great news.
Don’t Know Ultimate Result Of Speaking Up
June: It is great news. They did say that they’ve had problems in this area before that they would see about investigating it. It seems like I really kept running into these brick walls. And on top of that, it was everyone that I spoke to or had the chance to speak with, were men. They had never been in this situation.
Anne: I want to tell a story here because you don’t know what the fruits of this will be. When I was a teacher, there was something that went down that was not right. I wrote the superintendent. I just wrote a really short email and said, Hey, this is going down. It’s not cool. I didn’t hear anything for probably six months.
Then all of a sudden this superintendent showed up and had a meeting at our school with all of the teachers, and I was the facilitator of that meeting. I was the one who had brought it up in the first place. I had all of the teachers testify of what had happened. A couple of people resigned because of the email and because of what I did. I didn’t really see it immediately.
A lot of women call somebody, they write somebody, they go to a meeting, they speak up and the person just looks at ’em weird and they’re like, that didn’t go well.
You don’t know what the long-term effects of that will be. It might not be that someone resigns or that someone gets fired. It might not be that big, who knows? I don’t want this glazed over look that we get from male leadership, clergy, pastors, therapists, whoever it is to stop us from speaking unless we go in and have these meetings.
Returning To Church As A Divorcing Woman
Even though my guess is you were pretty terrified after all of the abuse that you’ve been through with clergy. I’m so proud of you and I want to encourage women. Our safety’s on the line, our emotional safety, our reputation. People call us crazy. People call us man haters. We need to keep speaking up. We will never know the extent of influence that we have.
June: More than ever, I feel so strong about that. It is easy to get discouraged. It is very easy to say, well, they listened to me. They didn’t take action right away. That just means that they’re never going to,
Anne: I don’t think that’s true. If enough of us went in and spoke, they would take action eventually. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But if every woman who has been through this in every church or in every paradigm or with every single therapist spoke up, we could change the world.
June: Yes. So after this all happened, I also made the decision to just start attending this congregation and it kind of came out of the blue today. I had someone invite me and I trusted this person and sat by her and I went, and I could not have had a more positive experience when I went to church today.
Anne: For our listeners. She has been avoiding church.
June: For years, for over two years..
Anne: In our church, if you don’t go, it’s sort of like you’re the guilty one. See, she’s the problem because she’s not coming to church. Victims are labeled with that all the time.
Positive Experience With Church Members
June: Since this happened, I’ve definitely dealt with my share of flying monkeys in the congregation, and that’s a term where people do the bidding and the dirty work of the narcissists by spreading rumors and lies and gossip. Let me tell you, all those people were there. I have done a lot of work. I’ve gone to the BTR groups, I’ve done guided meditation and I have done all of this work on healing.
I’ve read books today. I can say that I went there and I was really strong and felt for the most part, unaffected emotionally. I felt that my boundaries were my boundaries and that those people and what they say or what they think really didn’t have to affect me. And I do not for one second want to make it seem that we have a choice all the time for these things not to affect us.
I am saying that healing takes time and that healing can happen. You can get to a place where it will be okay. It will be okay for you. Actually, my husband’s affair partner was also in the ward.
Anne: Also your really good friend before he had an affair with her.
June: Yes. My really good friend who was also in the ward, it was her mother who was teaching one of the lessons today. I was like, oh my goodness, what are the chances? But it was a wonderful lesson. It was on mental health challenges and the stigmatization that doesn’t need to happen. She taught the lesson. It was fantastic. I added some things because I work in the area of mental health.
Verified Lies & Affair While Divorcing A Narcissist
We got to talking and she didn’t know who I was and she wanted to know who I was. In the parking lot afterwards, I told her who I was.
Anne: She’s probably heard horrific stories about you. She just didn’t know you were the one that she had heard these horrific stories about.
June: Yes. I just said to her, I believe that your daughter and my husband had an affair. I said, I don’t want you to feel any way about it. I’m just telling you that I’m the wife. She said that she was very aware that they had a relationship and she didn’t know that he was still married. We kind of became friends and talked about our similar career interests.
There is no way I could have had a conversation like that two years ago when this was fresh. There is no possible way. Today I had a conversation. It was a very difficult conversation with someone that I would’ve never dreamed I could have a conversation with before. It’s a lot like the conversation that I had with the bishop.
I would’ve never dreamed I could have such an impactful and pleasant and peaceful conversation while saying exactly what I needed to say.
Anne: This is also a testament to being away from your abuser for years, that you’re talking about it. You didn’t have as many boundaries. The manipulation and fog that they can create is really dark. The longer you set the boundaries for safety, emotional, physical, psychological, sexual safety. The longer you set those, not only do you get more and more out of the fog, so do other people.
Setting Boundaries For Narcissistic Behaviors & Results
June: Yes. And I feel that that has really been also a roadmap to trying to co-parent with a narcissist. We are still having major issues, major issues and issues where the kids’ safety has even been a concern. Issues of abusive things going on.
The more that I am in these situations and the more that I just do not react and just set those boundaries, set the boundaries for safety, the more that I find it not affecting me as much. Now it’s hard because I do see some of this affecting the children, and that is a big challenge. It breaks my heart.
They will use the children to hurt you when they can’t hurt you directly anymore. I feel that that is what is happening, that is horrifying. It’s horrifying.
Anne: It is. Yeah. Well, and the boundaries you have to set are really rough too. For example, I set a boundary that my children go out in the clothes that they came in with. The reason I set that boundary is because he was stealing my clothes. I would send them out in nice clothes and he would send them back in hand me down rags from his family.
I asked repeatedly, please send them back in the clothes I sent them out with. And he said, it’s impossible. He was like, well, you wash their clothes. He just did all these things. Finally, I just said, okay, I’ll send them back in the clothes you send them in. I saved some of his clothes from when they came back in their rags. One day I sent them out in his rags, and we’ve been doing that ever since.
Discussing Boundaries While Divorcing A Narcissist
It breaks my heart. My children do not want to put those rags on, and I don’t want to send them out of the house like that, but that is the boundary. I said, you guys, I’m so sorry. Your dad’s choices hurt everyone. They hurt me. They hurt you. I am sorry that you don’t have snow boots when you go to his house. That’s his job and I’m divorced from him. The challenges of divorcing a narcissist are immense.
I don’t need to babysit him anymore or make sure that your needs are met when it’s his job to take care of you. It’s so hard to make those choices. I don’t think that women can start making these boundaries unless they have a lot of support.
When I say support, I mean someone who understands this type of abuse to help them set the boundaries, because otherwise, that type of boundary seems really hard. I seem like I’m this awful, terrible person who’s sending my kids out in rags, and I had to make that decision based on assessing my values, assessing the consequences of his behavior to his own children.
Do you think you could have set the boundaries that you set without The BTR Community without Betrayal Trauma Recovery?
June: Definitely not. When I first started learning about boundaries, it was a foreign concept to me. I was never taught this growing up or my faith. I was never taught this in college even. It has really been a learning process. When I started learning about boundaries, I inevitably made mistakes along the way as everyone does.
Support From BTR Group Sessions While Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: How did The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community help you progress in your knowledge and your application of those boundaries?
June: I could come with a scenario. I could come with a real life problem and be directed into what my values were, what my boundaries should be around those values. What that ultimately looks like in practice and being supported, being supported in whatever boundary I chose. That was my boundary and I was going to be supported in that, and I knew I had backup, and that was huge.
Anne: The other thing that’s so hard about boundaries is, let me read you this quote I just saw. So this is a line from ancient Sanskrit scripture. It says, you are only entitled to the action, never to its fruits, which I think is really good. That’s how boundaries are. And that’s why people are so afraid to set them, because you set a boundary and you have no idea what the consequences are going to be.
You just have to know that what I’m doing is for my safety, and this is what feels right now. You can always adjust, I set that boundary and maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Next time I’ll do it differently. Right? Like you said, you’re going to make some mistakes. Things will need to adjust. My boundary that I set, I didn’t want to get divorced.
Difficulty Communicating With A Liar
I didn’t think divorce was going to be where that led, I needed no contact. I cannot have any semblance of communication with this person without him lying to me, manipulating me, trying to pull one over on me, nothing. There can be no communication without that. I didn’t know what the consequences would be. Some women set a boundary and their husband thinks, wow, I’ve been abusive.
I’m sorry. We don’t know what the consequences are going to be. That is one thing that you need support for. You need support to know, even though this could lead to something awful or good. We have no idea, if we focus on the now and the safety in the moment, then it will always lead us down the right path.
June: Exactly. Boundaries can change. When I first started in this process of going through litigation for custody it is expected that we co-parent and communicate. I took what that judge said very seriously. I would write detailed email updates every month with the kid’s appointments, how they were doing with pictures, all of these things to him and do it very quickly.
This last court date, I found out that he used a lot of that against me. A lot of it was sadly very, very sadly used against me. This judge didn’t really care about that so much. He actually made a comment that these people are divorced. They’re not going to co-parent, who cares. While I am totally and willingly invested in co-parenting with a healthy person, I doubt very much that that can happen when divorcing a narcissist.
Now I’m left renegotiating, alright, where does this leave me as far as communication and how much do I want to have?
The BTR Message Workshop Helped
Anne: Yeah. The BTR Message Workshop teaches these tools and the phrases to use to ensure that the communication is safe and is leading towards safety. We found that these tools work whether or not you’re married or divorced or separated, these tools work no matter what stage you’re in.
June: My emails to him are short, to the point, unemotional, straightforward and full of facts. That’s it, nothing else. Nothing else needs to be there. My communication is polite but brief. It is the communication that I would have with someone like a boss or a coworker or something like that.
Anne: The reason why I love having women from our community on the podcast is because everyone can benefit from hearing other women’s stories. As you listen, if you relate and you would like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email us at podcast@btr.org.
June: It’s very, very important. I can not stress this enough. It is so important for women in this situation to do research on divorcing a narcissist. A lot of these guys that have porn issues and infidelity issues, have narcissistic issues as well. You do not see that until, I often say, I was married. I could manage this behavior. I could manage him a little bit because I kind of knew how to work around these things.
Anne: I’d say the same of me managing it. Yeah.
Abuse Escalation While Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Yes. A friend told me when I was being severely abused every day, verbally abused, emotionally abused, spiritually abused. She was aware of the situation. She even said to me, just make sure what is in your future because it can and it will get worse. At the time, I thought, there’s nothing that could be worse than going through this constant and daily abuse every single day.
I felt like I was losing my mind, I didn’t know which end was up, I didn’t know reality. I had such a fog, fear, obligation, and guilt I was really, really just not a healthy person. Now I begin to see what she was talking about. Yes, the abuse is worse because now it is directed towards my children. Now it is directed within the community. Now it is directed in different ways that are so much harder to prove.
It’s like if you went into court, do you think a judge is really going to care that he sends your kids in rags?
Anne: No.
June: I mean, the judge that I went to, he would say, get out of here,
Anne: Or Why are you so judgy? Or whatever. That’s not the thing that I think is abusive. The abusive thing is stealing my clothes, not respecting anyone’s time and all those things. He has plenty of money. He could buy him boots or whatever, but he doesn’t.
Manipulation Of Proceedings When Divorcing A Narcissist
June: Right. And the thing is that I feel like a lot of the family court professionals, judges, things like that, have really been desensitized. They hear horrific cases of abuse. When a dad can’t get the kids somewhere on time or can’t return their clothes, it just does not register with them as the abuse that it is. It is abuse because we feel it. We know that.
I think these things are purposeful because he knows no one’s going to care. He knows I care because I can’t afford to go out and buy a new coat every time that he forgets to return theirs.
Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Well, you’ve got a doctor for an ex or soon to be ex, I have an attorney.
June: Yes
Anne: They know what they can and cannot do. And so they go right up to that line and they don’t cross it.
June: Yes. And going back to your original point, that is very much within their realm and their playbook of abuse and narcissism. They know what they’re doing and they not only know, but they exploit that in a way that sometimes is unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I do feel like things have gotten worse, this is what happens when divorcing a narcissist.
I have spent probably close to a hundred thousand dollars trying to get divorced. I’m still not divorced. That is the reality of divorcing a narcissist. That is the reality.
Anne: That’s financial abuse.
Escalation Of Abuse In Divorce Proceedings
June: It is financial abuse. It’s legal abuse. It’s everything. Things are worse. The difference is that now I’m not in that constant state of abuse in my own home. I can deal with this other abuse. Now I feel like I can function. I am a functional adult. I’m not only surviving, but I am thriving despite all of this other abuse. It’s horrible, horrible abuse still, but I’m able to handle it.
Anne: So you’re not finished with your divorce yet, but do you have some tips for our listeners? I want you to start way back with even listeners who are not thinking that divorce is in their future. Even listeners who are thinking, No, he seems to be understanding what I’m saying. He seems to be getting better because you and I both went through a phase where we thought, oh, things are getting better. He understands.
I’m not saying that listeners who are in that phase are going to get to the divorce phase. Maybe he will continue to improve, and if so, both June and I are very happy for you. That’s great. We wish that would’ve happened for us and it didn’t. Let’s start there. Even for women in that phase, what tips do you have about what is coming, what to expect and things that you wish that you would’ve known?
June: It would’ve been very helpful for me to know that really the natural progression of these cases when they are taken to court. If a dad goes back and asks for more time, whatever. Any information about divorcing a narcissist would be helpful. The court will oftentimes just give him a little bit more time. Like I said, my situation was that there has been all this bad behavior.
Narcissistic Husband’s Lying in Court
Surely he won’t be rewarded with a big change. He wasn’t rewarded with a huge change, but it was enough of a change that he could exploit the lack of boundaries, like I said, and now that’s what we have. Now that’s what I’m going to deal with. Be prepared for them to paint a picture of you that is literally unrecognizable.
He lied about many, many things. He said all of these things about me not caring for the kids or the kids being dirty and all of this other nonsense.
That’s very hard. It’s very hard when I feel like so many times I have literally been the bigger person. I have invited him to the kids’ events, made sure to save a seat for him and been very aware and doing the emotional labor to include him in those things. To have that used against me is horrible. It feels horrible. It’s a betrayal on its own.
After this last court date, like I said, I was in shock. I was in some trauma because I know what boundaries, the lack of boundaries would do to my husband in this situation. It’s only going to get worse. That was very hard. If I had expected that a little bit more, I think it would’ve been maybe a little bit easier. You talked to me right afterwards and I was pretty distraught. Now I’m feeling okay about it.
Divorcing A Narcissist: Documentation In Preparation For Future
I feel like I’ve gotten some good coping skills and that documentation is going to be huge. So the other thing that I learned is that documentation is key. It is paramount. You have got to document everything. That can be a challenge sometimes. One thing that I’ve learned that has helped me immensely wherever I am is I use the BTR boundary log.
Anne: The boundary log is a log that is available to women who have taken The Living Free Workshop that teaches all of these strategies about how to think about it, how to set boundaries, and how to communicate. The boundary isn’t just an independent book that you would buy, it’s for you specifically for women who have enrolled in The Living Free Workshop.
June: Yes, that has been great. Anytime there is some kind of an issue, the kid’s not getting somewhere on time, an offhanded comment, him swearing at me, him forgetting to return one of the kids’ items and refusing to go get it. I just write that down and that is my log. The way that you document your evidence is very, very important. Keeping a timeline of those things in real time is huge.
Another thing that I’ve learned is that I think that a lot of times the narcissistic ex is really in the mindset of winning. This is about winning for him. I don’t think that he really wants the kids asking for 50/50, and mind you, he hasn’t gotten it. He keeps asking, acting like he wants it. I think that this is about winning for him. It’s not that he actually wants to have the kids but that he wants the appearance of wanting the kids.
Husband’s Public Persona Backfires
On dating sites, it says that he has them 50/50. Sometimes I think that you can use that to your advantage. I am aware of a woman who allowed her ex to say that he had 50/50 when in reality it wasn’t, and he didn’t actually want it. He just wanted to be able to say that.
June: However you can make that and use that to your benefit, I think is important.
Anne: Before you move on, I want to stress that you might get really upset in court about things like, oh, they’re saying this thing and I don’t want that thing to happen. The reality is once that paper is signed and the divorce decree is done, what happens may be very different. You might think, oh, okay, I got everything that I wanted, or I didn’t get anything that I wanted, or whatever it is.
In reality, it might not even function like that. Just note that what they really want is the appearance of things. If they’re saying things, but it’s really not affecting the way you and your kids live, oh, for heaven’s sake, let them say it. That’s a type of battle that’s not worth fighting. This is like win-win because they get to live their lie and you get to get away.
June: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Part of me thinks that once we get the divorce finalized, divide the property and everything. Maybe things will calm down a little bit. I’ve often said I can deal with whatever crazy schedule we have, whatever he is going to do to me for the amount of time that he gets the kids every month, then fine. Most of the time I am peaceful, and that’s everything.
Build Community Support For Divorcing A Narcissist
That’s another tip that I want to share, please build your community and engage in your self-care and get to know the ropes. I can’t stress that enough. If I had the choice not to go through the court system, I would do that because this has been traumatizing. It is awful. It makes you feel victimized again and again and again. I feel like the narcissist. Really press on that.
Anne: The court system tends to work better for them than it does for the victims, and mostly because the victims are telling the truth and they’re willing to lie about anything.
June: Sometimes I find myself almost shocked at the stuff they would lie about. It’s almost so obvious that you don’t think they would lie about it. You will be shocked at what it’s like divorcing a narcissist. You don’t think that you’re going to have to prove it wrong. I mean, why would you ever think that you had to prove reality? Well, with a narcissist, you do.
Anne: If you can get away with not proving it by not getting in the argument about reality in the first place, that’s the best case scenario. There’s no way they’re ever going to say, oh yeah, you presented all these facts. Okay, good point. That’s never going to happen.
June: Now that we’re done with custody, I have asked my husband if it is possible at all for us to just reach a settlement in terms of the divorce and property. I filed on grounds and in my state grounds go to fault. I did file a fault divorce as opposed to a no-fault divorce. A fault divorce, if proven, can influence equitable division of property at this point.
Husband’s Sabotaging Himself
Now that it’s been two years, I am more than willing to forego that whole process and move on with my life. Not having to go through all of that to be able to prove grounds and establish grounds and fault. I asked him recently if he wanted to come to a settlement. We don’t have that many things to divide up.
I can’t imagine why we couldn’t come to some sort of reasonable agreement, which is what the courts would do anyway, really divide everything.
He told me, no, I intend to go through the courts for this. The reason is beyond me, and I’m still trying to figure that out. When we start digging into affairs, adultery, abuse, cruelty, when we start digging, we will deposition people. That’ll be people from church, people from his old workplace, people from the community. I imagine that that will bring up things that he probably does not want to see the light of day.
I cannot, for the life of me understand it, I sat here and I tried for about a week to figure out what he is thinking and why on earth he would be doing this, wanting to do that. Doesn’t he realize what’s at stake? Well, I finally figured that because to him, he feels so entitled and because to him, he has really gotten rewarded for lying.
He came into court and told completely falsified story. He really hasn’t felt the consequences of that. I almost feel that his response was also a peek into how delusional his thinking is and how entitled and untouchable he really feels.
No Longer Afraid Of Narcissistic Husband
He has not felt the consequences of his actions. I feel that his response was really indicative of that, that he doesn’t think there will be any consequences.
Anne: Do you think there will be? Are you more hopeful about him having the consequences of the property settlement? Or are you, after what you’ve been through, thinking oh my gosh it’s going to go bad too. Well, it can’t go bad because the worst thing that can happen is they divide everything up equally. He’s willing to spend a ton of money to try and avoid the inevitable, really.
June: Exactly. Let me just cut my losses and get out of this. I don’t want to have to go through depositions. Do you think I want to sit here and go through all of these women? I have no desire to do that, but because now I can kind of see the writing on the wall and I can say, okay, I guess if this is what you’re going to want to do, that’s what we’re going to be doing.
It’s kind of a bluff game. I think for him it is well, I’m going to make her so scared that I’m going to actually do this. In my case, I don’t have anything to be scared about. I feel like that’s a very interesting point, I feel that never, never underestimate reasoning with them. I thought for sure that we would be able to reason and reach a settlement especially when he has things like this at stake.
While divorcing a narcissist their entitlement gets in the way of their self-preservation, if that makes sense.
Hope For The Future After Divorcing A Narcissist
Anne: Yeah, I agree. And they just make really, really poor choices. Wow. Well, we’ll see how it goes. It’ll be interesting to see over the years, especially with our ex’s because we have very similar ones. They’re both very professional. They’re both supposedly active in church. They both show up in the white shirt and tie kind of thing. It’ll be interesting to see over time the consequences that happen.
The good news is, even if we don’t worry about them at all, which is hard because they’re still dealing with our kids. June and I are getting exponentially stronger and more and more firm in our boundaries. The safety in our homes is increasing and we’re healing more and more. We’re finding more peace and safety in our lives. That’s exciting. Any woman can find that even if your ex is not as horrific.
Even if you’re considering whether or not you need to set boundaries with your current husband.
Even if they’re not showing these types of horrific behaviors, you still get to decide, how am I going to think about this? What boundaries do I need to set? How am I going to communicate? All the information that you need to know in order to make really good decisions is in The BTR Living Free and Message Workshops that can take you through these strategies.
This interview was actually years ago, and I’m talking about it now after getting to safety. When I did this interview, I was not completely safe like I am now, but now I’m a hundred percent safe and I use the strategies in The Living Free Workshop.
He Blamed ME For The Emotional Abuse – June’s Story Part 1
Jul 09, 2024
One reason women can’t figure out the truth in their marriage is that their emotionally abusive husband blames them. Has he blamed you for his emotional abuse? When June found BTR.ORG Group Sessions and received the support she needed, she realized it wasn’t her fault.
In this episode of the podcast, Anne Blythe sits down with June, a member of The BTR.ORG Community, to discuss the emotional and psychological abuse that June endured during her marriage and the continued manipulation and control after her separation. June is the mother of four children with special needs this adds another layer of complexity to her story.
Anne introduces the episode by sharing details about the ongoing emotional abuse and manipulation faced under the guise of co-parenting. Using the strategies in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, she’s now completely free from the abuse.
This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with June:
He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse – June’s Story Part 1 (THIS EPISODE)
Anne: June and I did this interview years ago. At this time, my ex was abusing me and my kids on almost a daily basis under the guise of co-parenting messages that were emotionally and psychologically abusive. He was undermining my children’s medical care, their extracurricular activities, and their school work. I constantly had a pit in my stomach.
Although I was actively trying to figure out how to deliver myself and my children from the abuse, the answers hadn’t come yet. When I listened to this episode again, I could hear the anger and frustration in my voice. I was doing everything right, at least everything I’d learned up until that point. I did everything the typical therapist and clergy told me to do.
Everyone told me that I should get over it and move on. They couldn’t wrap their head around the fact that I was still being emotionally and psychologically abused and my children were being undermined. Yet I was being blamed by the court and guardian ad litem.
My children and I no longer have to deal with my emotionally abusive ex, and I still use these strategies. I wanted to make sure that my experience wasn’t a fluke and that these strategies weren’t just specifically for me. I tested the strategies for years with other sheroes who confirmed that they worked for them too.
Being Blamed For The Emotional Abuse
Once we knew they would work for any woman in any situation, I created the Living Free and Message workshop. In our BTR Group Sessions, women come to ask questions about how to implement these strategies and find support there.
Make sure you check out the Group Session schedule at btr.org/group. I’m still angry that women trying to get to emotional and psychological safety are thwarted and blamed at every turn. I think we should all be angry about that. In this interview, a member of the BTR Community, June shared her story.
June found out that her husband used pornography and had sex with multiple partners. He continued to do it after they were separated and going through the divorce process. At the time, June’s four children were very young and all of them have special needs to varying degrees.
We’re going to start by talking about the challenge of having special needs children when your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive. Then she shared her story of how she met her husband and how she discovered the truth. You guys are going to be really curious about June’s story. June, let’s start with you talking about your children.
The Challenges Of Parenting Special Needs Children When You’re Being Blamed For His Emotional Abuse
June: I have four children. They range from age nine to three, two boys and two girls, and they each have some level of special needs. My 9-year-old has autism spectrum disorder, sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder and also ADHD.
He’s probably been most impacted as far as special needs go and on the disability range. My other children have speech and language issues, and all of my children have been affected by trauma. Which is really important to note because the treatment for trauma impacted children as well as special needs children can overlap sometimes.
In my own home and in my own parenting, I do a lot of things to address that; things to help them feel safe, things to help them process that trauma and process those emotions. It really is no different, many times the work I do with my profoundly impacted child as opposed to the rest of my children that have suffered the trauma is the same.
Anne: Let’s talk about your nine-year-old son who is on the spectrum for a moment. Would you say that some of his behaviors have escalated due to the trauma in the home? Do you see that? They’re a little bit correlated.
Impact Of Emotional Abuse On Children”s Behavior
June: I see that my son who has autism can have a very hard time processing those things. He can have a more difficult time than the other kids processing the actual separation and divorce. He can tend to perseverate on that and ask why. Any answer that I give him won’t necessarily satisfy him.
Kids on the spectrum and kids with special needs in general, can all have sleep issues and insomnia and anxiety. I definitely have seen that increase in my son. Yes, to answer your question, some of the behaviors have escalated.
Anne: You’d mentioned sleep, when your son or all of your children are having sleep difficulties due to the trauma? How do you practice self-care in a situation that is extremely stressful and difficult?
June: I feel like it’s very important to teach my kids what emotions look like and how we process emotions. I would say, if I’m angry about something or if the kids are angry about something.
Strategies For Managing Emotional Abuse & Blame
We will go outside and we will say, I’m angry and that is okay. Giving them those ways to process and handle those emotions is very healthy. It is very healthy for me to have that self-care time and that alone time should I need it. I do find ways and carve out little moments during my day that I can do that.
Self care is so important not only for anyone who’s going through a divorce due to abuse or separation or difficult time.It’s also just for a parent in general of a special needs child because oftentimes you never get a break.
It is important to take that upon yourself to learn how to get yourself some relief when you need it and be able to implement that in your daily routine. The things I do, I mean of course I love bubble baths, but when I’m out and about and dealing with a crisis situation with one of my kids, I can’t really go home and take a bubble bath and just stop everything.
I will practice mindfulness driving in the car like pulling over for five minutes to do some deep breathing.
I will do some grounding exercises and the most important thing is that I’ve taught my children how to do these things too.
They know little exercises there’s one that’s called Take Five where we go through the five senses, we pick out five things that we see. We pick out four things that we hear, three things that we touch, two things that we smell, one thing that we taste, and there’s definitely a neuroscience behind it.
The Legal Challenges Of Being Blamed
It switches your brain into getting out of the fight or flight symptoms and into a more grounded state. If any of my children are experiencing anxiety, we’ll do these simple exercises. We’ll do teddy bear breathing and all of these little cute names that we have for the things that we may do to help.
Anne: For women who are separated and or divorced, like June and I, do get a quote, “break” every other weekend when my kids go with my ex. June is in that same situation right now where her children go with her soon to be ex every other weekend. A lot of people think that divorce solves the problem. It does not. The abuse continues.
We still have to learn how to deal with it. In my case, the abuse is that he’s still lying about what happened. He’s still manipulating people. Also, there’s some physical things that are happening with my kids when they come home and they’ve felt physically unsafe with him. June is in that same situation.
There’s this dichotomy of really enjoying the break and having that be a time of self-care, but also really worrying about our children. When my children (who are neurotypical) come home their behaviors have escalated. It takes a while to get back to normal. They have trouble sleeping or they have trouble with school or trouble with getting up in the morning. It throws their whole schedule off.
There’s this dichotomy between I like the break but I want to protect my kids and it’s really hard. What to do with your emotions when the children are with an abusive dad?
Challenges Of Co-Parenting With An Emotionally Abusive Ex-Husband
June: Yes, and I do want to say that any child that is going through the divorce of their parents experiences trauma even in the best of circumstances. That is traumatic for a child and the impact of trauma, regardless of what it is, even if it’s a minor trauma, major trauma, it really depends on how the child perceives it and the impact is really the same.
Even though your children might be neurotypical, you can still do things to address the trauma that they may be facing, even if it is, like I said, in the best of circumstances. I really identify with what you’re saying. It’s so important to take that break when your children leave so that you can catch up on things that you need to do.
Cleaning for me is like self-care because so often I’m running day to day with the kids and we’re going to appointments and therapies and school and all sorts of things, and sometimes I don’t get a chance to clean something the way that I would need to.
I’ll do that on my weekends and I also take that time to be very reflective and to plan my week because I know I have a big week coming up. On my weekends, I will often look for chances to increase my own learning when it comes to my children with special needs. No one can be blamed if you just need to rest.
Continued Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce
I go to advocacy seminars, disability symposiums, trainings, and parenting classes. Many times in your own community, these things are completely free. You just have to know where to look.
Get involved in your community services board if your community has one, which most communities do. There are lots of organizations, nonprofit organizations in general that will offer these sort of things: National Alliance of Mental Illness and mental health organizations.
There are a lot of places that will give you free training for children who have special needs or just general children who have trauma or parenting neurotypical children with no trauma.
It breaks my heart to know that my children might be feeling unsafe. We have been in that situation before and if they have disclosed that they have felt unsafe or they’ve been uncomfortable with something when they’re not with me. I have really struggled on how to handle that, some things I will bring up to him and say, Hey, the kids have mentioned this. It very easily gets manipulated.
The next time that he sees them he will say, I never said that and you shouldn’t tell mom that, or something like that. In those situations, I’ve really just started to teach my kids what gaslighting is without badmouthing him at all. That way I can’t be blamed for it.
I just let them know if someone tries to convince you that something didn’t happen that really did happen or that they didn’t say something that they really did and you know that to be real. That’s gaslighting and they appreciate learning that terminology.
Addressing Children’s Special Needs When Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse
They come to me and say, this person was gaslighting me today. I also try to give them and teach them the tools that they need to handle any situation that they might feel unsafe in.
If they are made to watch a movie that is inappropriate or scary, we will role play and I’ll say, what can you do in this situation? The answers that they come up with are great. They say, I can leave the room. I can say, I don’t want to watch this, I tell them I can be blamed for it not being allowed. You can go in your room and play Legos, or close your eyes and think happy thoughts.
Giving them the tools for handling those difficult situations that I have no control over is so important. I do the same thing for my autistic child that I do for the rest of my children, they can all use those tools and effectively implement them in the situations that they’re in.
Anne: Yeah,I have found that has really helped too. Teaching them about gaslighting, they come home and tell me there was a gaslighting situation or this is what happened, and it was really weird, Mom. We felt really uncomfortable. I am so grateful that they’re starting to see that and that they can tell me how they feel about it.
They have words now to describe what is happening to them. By the way, a lot of people ask when I tell them the situation, they’re like, what? He still can take the kids every other weekend even though he’s done this, this and you had a protective order and he was arrested?
When Legal Proceedings Blame The Victim
A lot of people don’t understand that in many ways the law protects abusers and it’s super traumatic when you start going through the divorce process thinking, oh, we’ll finally feel peace. You start realizing that maybe your attorney or the judge or other people don’t understand abuse. What they’re deciding is actually keeping your kids in a harmful situation.
A lot of people don’t realize that. Then there’s also the abuser’s family who is supportive of him and thinks he’s great. My ex hit my son in the face while playing a video game. My ex’s mother, he lives with his parents, used it as an opportunity to tell my ex (My son overheard.) that my son should be blamed because he must be an addict, which hurt him so much.
He said, I feel so unsafe around grandma. She doesn’t understand the situation. She didn’t even hear the whole truth of it, but immediately she threw me under the bus and supported her abusive son. He came home and told me that. In your case, it even came down to clergy and your faith community.
I just want to put out there that a child with autism or I have another friend who has a daughter who has Down syndrome, can have a Mom who is going through this with her abusive spouse. Many other women that I know have a disabled child while an abusive husband in the home is currently lying and manipulating. He’s currently angry.
What It Feels Like To Parent With An Emotional Abuser
He’s currently looking at porn and a lot of people see the disability and women feel free to talk about the disability, but they don’t want to talk about what’s happening with their spouse. Can you talk about in the past when you didn’t understand you were being abused and the situation in the context of having a child with special needs?
June: There was definitely this intersection where I was handling the situation with my children that have special needs and really trying to learn what I could and advocate for them in the school system and educationally. Also, I was very wrapped up in my marriage failing and why my husband was doing these things and what I could do to help that situation.
We went to marriage counseling and I went to counseling on my own. I learned all I could about problematic sexual behaviors, porn use, affairs. I really delved into it all and took it upon myself to try to understand how I could possibly save our marriage and our family and help him.
The Impact of Emotional Abuse
I very much wanted him to succeed and to be a healthy person because I believe that abusive people can change and I believe that people can make mistakes and right those wrongs. I began to learn about abuse.
It was very clear that this situation I was in was taking away from my ability to be the best parent I could be for my own children.
I spent so much time in trauma over and over and over again, Trauma from daily verbal abuse and from emotional manipulation, sexual coercion, spiritual abuse to awful degrees. It impacted my ability to advocate and look into the issues that were going on with my own children and to really be present for that.
Once I realized that was the case saw that this intersection was happening, it was a collision, I couldn’t do both. My son didn’t talk until he was about five years old. He used sign language up until that point. When he did start talking, he jumped right into speaking full sentences and parroting people and echoing what other people were saying.
My son heard the names my husband called me. When I realized that my son would repeat that very soon because he was talking. They were subjected to hearing it, was the point for me that this is not getting any better. In fact, it’s getting worse and this is normalized for my children. I would not be blamed for continuing to expose him to that.
Learning From A Childrens Therapist
How it was impacting my ability to also parent my children in a healthy way was the basis for preparing myself that I might have to be a single mom one day.
Anne: Have you seen your children’s behaviors improve since you started setting a boundary around your husband’s abusive behaviors?
June: Yes, I love talking about this because it is truly amazing when you receive the help that you need and you receive the care and the love and that you feel like you belong somewhere and you feel like people understand you. When I left my marriage, my children and I had all received services at a center for abused women and their children.
Part of this was I would go to a support group and the kids would go to children’s support group. It was led by child therapists and social workers, and I took advantage of their amazing training. I would meet with the child therapists alone on a different day to ask them, how can I help my children going through this very, very difficult and traumatic situation?
I was not to be blamed. The things that I learned from that and the things that my children learned just from going to a support group like that with other children who were experiencing similar things were amazing.
Encouragement For Women In Similar Emotionally Abusive Situations
One of the things we did was to implement a safe space in our home. We set up a little tent in the corner of one of our rooms. It has pillows and it has all sorts of sensory things, bean bags and smelly candles and Play-Doh. It’s like a designated space for working through those things that they feel.
We also use time-ins instead of time-outs, if one of my children is having some difficult behaviors or being very irritable or not getting along with the other children. Instead of putting them in timeout, their behavior is a call for help and their behavior is communication. The first thing about trauma-informed care is that all behavior is communication.
What my child is communicating with me at that time when they are acting out is that they need help processing what they’re feeling. Instead of being blamed they are being helped.
I take them aside and we do an emotional check-in or we’ll play a short game about what they felt that day. Tell me a time that you felt brave, or lonely, or happy today. Those times we do that and set aside for even just a five minute conversation, can help push the reset button on their behavior.
It really gets them back on track where they need to be. That is a coping mechanism that is teaching them emotional intelligence and how to process those feelings.
Anne: For other women who have a child with special needs, who find themselves in an abusive situation. They start realizing that these fights that they’re getting into with their spouse are actually verbal abuse. Their husband is lying or using porn without their knowledge. What advice would you give them?
Challenges In Being Blamed: Leaving An Emotionally Abusive Husband
June: I would definitely say to inform yourself and to educate yourself. The more empowered that you can be in your situation to identify what is going on, the better off you will be in handling whatever happens and whatever you decide and whatever comes your way. I also feel like it is essential to stress that I am a much better parent being out of that situation.
I can now focus on my children. It’s like this whole new world has opened up to me about kiddos that deal with trauma and special needs and how to best mentor them and help them through these things and advocate for them.
It takes advocacy on every level in the community, in schools, even in churches. You really have to educate other people and you as the parent are the expert on your child and being in an abusive relationship can hinder that. It can take away some of the ability that you have to really focus on the children that need it.
I cannot stress enough how much my parenting has changed. How much my life has really opened up. My eyes have opened up to a whole new world helping children with special needs or children with trauma or any child in the best and healthiest way.
Anne: As she shares her story, take deep breaths and remember that she is on her way to safety and will get there eventually, getting to safety is a journey. Also, before we start, I want to talk about how women start this journey. They don’t think their husbands are abusive. Being blamed is so painful. They think, okay, we’ve got this problem, he’s got an anger problem or he has a pornography problem, the trauma symptoms aren’t as bad.
Finding Pornography On Her Husband’s Computer
Trauma symptoms are lower because a woman thinks that the situation is manageable or that things can get better. Then as she learns more and realizes that it’s abuse and starts to try to confront the abuser and the abuse gets worse, then the trauma gets worse. When you set a boundary around the abuse and it doesn’t stop, but it escalates, then the trauma becomes even worse.
For listeners, I don’t want anyone to think, oh, things are getting worse. This is really bad, and so it’s the wrong thing to do. It’s the right thing to do and it’s the only way out. June, let’s talk about how you met your husband and when you first suspected that he was using pornography.
June: I met my husband when I was in college and everything seemed great. He was the man of my dreams. I was young, in my early twenties, when he came along.
I didn’t have too much of a problem with it because he came across so well, my family liked him. He checked all the boxes that I was raised to believe meant he was a safe and worthy person. We ended up getting married, and I remember I was sitting on the bed in our first year of marriage using his computer for something, and I happened to look in one of the files and I saw a bunch of photos from a topless beach.
Recognizing When He Blames YOU For The Emotional Abuse
I was shocked. It was very clear that these were homemade photos. It wasn’t like he downloaded these, this was like homemade photos taken of women on this topless beach. I had known that he had spent some time in a place that had a topless beach. He was in some of the pictures with a friend of his, so I confronted him about it and he gaslit that away and manipulated it and said, oh, he blamed his friend.
He just never deleted them from the device. Looking back, that was my first real D-Day. That was such a little thing compared to everything that has happened since, but that was definitely a huge red flag. If I could go back and speak to the former June in that time, I would teach her that that was a huge red flag and to pay a lot closer attention than she did.
Anne: Why do you think women in this situation dismiss those little experiences? They’re really big experiences, but why do we say they’re little? Not that they should be blamed.
June: I think that we want to believe in the good of people and someone doing something like that, that’s voyeuristic. I would say it’s also stalking and obviously porn, but it goes beyond that. We don’t want to believe that anyone is capable of that and that’s foreign. It’s foreign to me because I have no propensity to really do that, and so we want to believe the best in people.
The Extent Of Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse
These are men that we love. We want to save our families. We want everyone to be healthy and happy. It’s not hard for someone to come in and say, Hey, these weren’t my pictures. Here’s what happened, and give us an explanation. For us to just take them at their word and believe it. Definitely throughout our dating and throughout our marriage, there was abuse all along.
I had reached out to people. I’d reached out to my parents, to friends and other family members. I told them what was going on.
He called very, very horrific names. I remember one time even when we were dating. We had been in a fight about something and I went into the bathroom, shut the door and was sitting down on the floor with the lights off. He came in there and was just yelling over me, the B word over and over and over again. I was huddled in this corner, oh my gosh, what is he doing?
We had probably only been dating a few months by the time that situation had happened, and still he had said he was sorry afterwards. There was a point when he came into my apartment and decorated my whole room with rose petals. I look back, this is a textbook abusive cycle, the love bombing, the apologies.
Then the explosion and the honeymoon phase and then building up the tension and the explosion and the love bombing. It was just very much like that, but every time he would apologize. He just blamed something else for his behavior.
Being Stuck In The Abuse Cycle With Your Husband
I would stay because he’d said he would get better and then it would happen again. Then he would apologize and I would stay and every time that he apologized, things did get better until the next time..
You become invested in how the relationship is. In the first year of marriage, it was a lot of verbal abuse. I would tell people, and nobody else really picked up on it. They were like, marriage is hard.
Anne: He must be stressed.
June: And all this while, I found out later, he was calling friends and family members and gaining rapport with them. Saying that he’s concerned about June because she seems like she’s depressed and really gaslighting me to my family, really for the next 12 years he blamed me. He had done this as the abuse was on and off just like an abusive cycle would be.
All the while he was gaining this trust of my family and of my friends when things escalated to the point that I had to leave. That made it extremely difficult for me because I did not trust some of my family at that point.
Anne: Talk about when you actually started realizing that the behaviors that you were seeing were abusive as opposed to just thinking that he had an anger problem or that he was a pornography addict. Talk about how you made that shift to realizing that these things were abusive.
Seeking Social Support During Divorce From An Emotionally Abusive Man
June: There were things all along the way that I look back on, these were all red flags and I missed them. He would chat online inappropriately with women and he would tell me about it. I don’t know why I didn’t have the capacity to understand what was going on, like I said, he would always apologize and I would always stay.
It was not until I had a friend that reached out to me and confided in me about her situation with her husband who has some very, very problematic sexual behaviors, porn use and infidelity and things like that, voyeurism. She said, I just have a feeling that I need to be there for you and ask you if you’ve ever thought that your husband is like that. I don’t know what she picked up from my husband.
She didn’t really know him very well, and maybe it was things that she picked up on in me. There was definitely a change when I was going through some things privately that maybe she could pick up on. She just shared her story and that night I came home and I just asked my husband, is this an issue for you?
I started tying some of those situations together. There was a time that he had come home and I was 37 weeks pregnant. He said, this woman attacked me in my office, and I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds so dangerous. She was trying to come on to him he blamed her. Well, in reality, I found out that they had been sexting on the hospital’s messaging system.
When You’re Blamed For Your Own Emotional Abuse
He had gone to her office, shut the door and locked it, and there was some kind of sexual encounter, and I was 37 weeks pregnant. When I found that out, he shrugged it off. He had no idea what was going on, and he just blamed her. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We went to our ecclesiastical leader who is called the bishop in our church.
He has really no training to be able to identify abuse or handle infidelity or marital problems.
He is a volunteer. We are going to him, and now I look back and I’m thinking, this situation is just so prime for mishandling. Here we are, we’re talking to someone about this huge situation, and yet nobody really picked up on the gravity of it. We went to our bishop and learned some more things about the situation that I felt like I needed to know.
I think my bishop was kind of in shock. He didn’t really know what to say. My husband talked his way out of it. I was 37 weeks pregnant. This was my fourth child. I had three other children under the age of five at the time, one of whom had profound special needs.
Finding BTR.ORG & Feeling Relief From The Blame
There’s no way I believed him when he said it was not his fault. We had our baby and things kind of went back to normal and normal for us. Which was a lot of abuse. I just remember a few months after my baby was born, it was the summer and I had taken all of my kids to go see a movie in the park and to play.
My husband was at work and he had just been nasty to me and hanging up on me all day. I’m just thinking, what did I do? What is going on with him and how do I deal with this situation? The confusion was extremely difficult. After that, I started learning more about sexual addiction, sexual behaviors, pornography use.
I found BTR, which was a beacon of light to me in this situation. I listened to all of the podcasts every single week, I would just wait for the next one to come out. For the first time I had a label of what I was feeling. I didn’t know what this was. When I learned about betrayal trauma, I could understand these symptoms.
This is trauma that happens to someone when they are in the situation of being betrayed by someone that they trust implicitly. When I would listen to the BTR episodes, I remember listening to your story and how horrific it was, but also at the same time, I didn’t place myself in that category. I still didn’t, but the more that I listened and the more that you would talk about covert abuse, the more that connected with me up to that point.
I Was Being Blamed: Escalation of Abuse
There was no outright physical abuse yet. The covert abuse that you would describe was very, very much the same of what I was experiencing. The manipulation and the lying and the psychological harm, even the spiritual abuse. That is one thing that I started connecting with and learning about, and that opened my eyes to seeing and really identifying that I was in a very bad abusive relationship.
Anne: You’re listening to me. I’m sharing my story. You’re thinking, whoa, I’m really relating to this. When did his behaviors escalate to actual physical violence?
June: His behaviors started escalating when I started finding out more and more about some of the extreme problems that he was having. I found out about several inappropriate relationships that he had had with people at his work. He was in a very powerful position. These were people who were under him, so it was an abuse of power. He always blamed the women.
He’s actually licensed also by the state. I knew that could be a very bad situation for him as far as that goes. When I started finding out about this, he would come to tell me and confess these things. It was almost as a way of him gaining my trust.
Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. The way he would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.
Realities Of Divorcing An Emotional Abuser
Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. He would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.
June: Exactly. So he would come and tell me these things and say, “ There’s an inappropriate encounter with someone at his work.”, or “This woman sent me these unsolicited pictures of her in a compromising position” or “wearing nothing”. He always blamed the women.These things all accumulated. My husband ended up moving out for two months or so.
He was in therapy with a therapist who claimed to treat sexual addiction and problematic sexual behaviors and pornography and everything. I had started therapy on my own and we had gone to therapy together with each of our therapists. They were at the same facility. We had met with them maybe once or twice. My therapist easily identified that I was in an abusive situation. His therapist did not.
Anne: Yeah, we’ve noticed that so much with so-called Sexual Addiction Experts. They do not identify the abuse and they’re not helping keep the wives of sex addicts safe at all. It’s really actually pretty scary and dangerous
June: We were really trying to work things out. He was going to SA meetings and he had shown a lot of humility and improvement. I remember thinking, if this is the man that could be with me all the time, that is who I want. He did move back in and we had a pretty good, I’d say six to eight months of progress.
Establishing Safety During Abuse & Blame
Then things started to slip again, and it was more verbal abuse that started creeping in. It was more psychological abuse. It was these things that would start to come back in and I would ask him, is anything going on with people at work? These abusive behaviors are a really, really big red flag for me.
I had tied it altogether at that point, I had tied the verbal abuse to the other problematic sexual behaviors, and he just insisted, no, no, it wasn’t.
He just came to me one day out of the blue and said, I have actually been lying to you and there’s three women who I’ve had inappropriate relationships with off and on. I am using porn again, and it was like a D-Day all over again. I’ve given him my trust in thinking he’s a safe person. I’ve let him move back in.
I have overcome part of that betrayal trauma to be able to be intimate with him again and to be able to really want to work on our marriage.
When I found that out, it was a huge D date. You have been lying to me this whole time and you are not a safe person, and at that time, I asked him to move out again. He wouldn’t. He became very mean, very irate, very scary. I received a message from somebody anonymously about his reputation at his workplace and that he made people feel uncomfortable.
There was even one that described a certain situation where he sexually assaulted a female in this closet at work. Once again he blamed her. He was sleeping downstairs, and I went downstairs and I asked him about this and he demanded to see my phone.
June Discovers Even More Abuse & Her Husband Blamed Her
I said, no, you can’t see my phone, and I went upstairs and he was running after me. At that point, I was very, very scared. I had just found out that this person was very unsafe.
Also had confirmation of this from someone who worked with him, and here he was running after me trying to get my phone. I ran upstairs, he pushed me into a wall. He tackled me. He got my phone. I scratched him. I’m five five and I weigh 140 pounds. He’s six six and he weighs 220, so I did whatever I could. I was very, very scared for my life because I had no phone.
I ran outside to a neighbor’s house and called the police. When the police came, they looked at him and they looked at me and he had a scratch mark. It was a male police officer and I was incoherent. I was in trauma, I couldn’t really describe anything of what had happened, I was just trying to process it myself. I had no visible bruising yet, or marks or anything that was bleeding. That did show up a few days later.
He went inside and my husband was just bawling and he blamed me for the whole thing. The police officer said, well, I have to take you away because he has these visible injuries, and so I was taken away that night. I was arrested and sat in the holding area for just a few hours and then they let me go back home. I didn’t have anyone that I could call to pick me up.
Support To Face Blame During Divorce
I have no family around. Nobody really knew what was going on in my situation in my marriage. I felt very much a sense of shame and I couldn’t call anyone and say, I’ve been arrested. Come and pick me up. There was just nobody that would understand that. My husband did call one of his friends who was actually from our church. Looking back, I see that he had set this up.
The more empowered I would become, he would say the more crazy I would get to this friend, and so I think he could see that I was becoming empowered and stronger and being able to identify abuse. At the same time, he was telling people that I was becoming more depressed or more and more angry.
I retained a lawyer and I had injuries of my own, which I had someone take pictures of, and that case was dismissed, but I knew I was in a very unsafe situation. At the library I did research on domestic violence and abuse. I learned that 40% of women who are in abusive relationships, had their partner blamed them and have them arrested for abuse for fighting back.
Suddenly in the shame of that situation, I was able to understand that this was no fault of my own. I also felt more empowered and safer to reach out to people and say, look, my husband did this to me and he had me arrested. He accused me of abuse, and I slowly started gaining support of a few people just in a very close knit circle that I could trust and could see what was going on.
I Was Blamed By My Clergy For His Abuse
It was just a few months after that things really started escalating. My husband started using my arrest as leverage. He said that if I ever left, he would get custody of our children have this history. He blamed me for the whole situation, he said I would be out on the street. I wouldn’t have anywhere to live. It was very much held over me. The abuse just escalated from that point. He got a free pass.
I did reach out to the bishop when I found out about more sexual incidents and many other sexual indiscretions, and my husband and I went to meet with the bishop at that point. After my arrest and after he had confessed a bunch of things to me. The bishop was meeting with my husband privately. They met for probably about 45 minutes before the door finally opened.
I went in and I said, I am really at my wit’s end. I’m thinking that this is not a safe situation and I need support. The bishop looked at me and he said, you need to be a better wife and mom and your husband has told me everything that has happened. You are angry. He called me a feminist.
Anne: Which is not a bad word, by the way. Great word. Thank you for the compliment, sir.
When Your Church Community Won’t Protect You From Abuse
June: It became clear that my husband had gone in there and just said all of these things. June wants to go back to school and I don’t feel like she needs to do that. The bishop said, you don’t need to go back and get your master’s degree. What are you even thinking? You need to just be a better wife and mom and your husband is dissatisfied sexually, he blamed me for my husbands actions. You need to give him more sex.
Basically, I very clearly saw what was happening. I started just speaking my mind and I said, this is not okay. You cannot be saying this. This is not okay. My bishop started to ask me details of things that I had done sexually when I was a teenager. He said, your husband said that you were not faithful. I said things I did as a teenager have no bearing on any of this.
First of all, I’m a married mother of four and I’m 34 years old. You do not need to be asking me these questions. It was sexually explicit questioning and I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand what he was doing. I look back now and I see that shamed me for something that I had done a long time ago.
He was trying to shame me into stopping the complaints or pointing the finger about how abusive my husband was.
When He Blames You For Emotionally Abusing You
When The Blame Doesn’t Stop
Anne: He was trying to silence you, right, and say, look, you are the one that’s the problem. Stop causing all this hullabaloo and take your place as a wife and mother. He blamed you for the abuse.
June: The sexually explicit questioning continued. My bishop said that if I submitted myself to him that he could fix me and that he has a very special way with women. That he has insight into women and that he has a unique ability to fix them and fix their problems and help them. It was so far out that I could identify it as inappropriate.
I went there thinking that I would feel safe and protected and loved, and I knew that something was going terribly, terribly wrong. I didn’t have the language to say, this is sexual harassment. It’s inappropriate questioning. It is verbal abuse. It is blaming, it’s rationalizing, it’s deflecting. It’s projecting. I can name exactly what was happening, but at that time I didn’t.
It was so confusing to me why he was asking me these things and why he was taking the position that he did.
I eventually tried to teach him a little bit about trauma, pornography use, infidelity, and abuse and how it all ties in together. He stood up, his face got very red, he yelled at me.
Secondary Emotional Abuse, Being Blamed By Clergy
He said, I’m exhausted and I don’t know what else you want from me. I’m trying to take care of all of these people and you’re making my job difficult and you need to listen to me.
It was very scary, I came to him disclosing that I had experienced verbal abuse. That was very triggering for me. It was very, very traumatizing. I got up out of his office and I actually ran out of the church. It was probably 11 o’clock at night at that point. Nobody else was there.
I had immediately called a friend and I called my mom and explained what happened. From that point on, I had tried to take it up to the person above him. Which is the stake president, like a hierarchy, and explain what happened. This bishop’s behavior, and his questioning was inappropriate. Things are happening in my home that are terribly wrong and I need some help.
The stake president said, I don’t believe the bishop did that. I tried. I tried to report to whoever I could report it to, but there’s really nothing else I could do.
Anne: This story is getting really intense, I’m just going to recap really quickly. She starts recognizing that her husband is abusive. Goes in to see if she can get some help from her clergy, and ends up being emotionally abused by her clergy as well. At this point, June, you’re realizing that you can’t get help from clergy and you need to turn somewhere else. What do you do next?
Moving Forward, Despite Emotional Abuse With Divorce Proceedings
June: I start educating myself. I listened to BTR, I found a lot of comfort and guidance in really identifying the behaviors that I was seeing in my own home from my husband as abusive behaviors. I became empowered enough and informed enough and I did initiate separation. His behavior escalated phenomenally during that time. The name calling was getting much worse.
I had no lawyer. We had no legal separation. I had consulted a couple of lawyers, trying to figure out what the situation would be like. I do suggest that informing yourself is paramount, it’s key. When we would exchange the children, he would come into my home and yell and throw things around.
He berated me for the children’s clothing. When he moved out, he packed up all of his guns and laid them in the hallway.
The kids and I were in the house and it was very obvious that he was doing that as physical intimidation. One day he picked up the kids. He called me horrific names. My children were there. He came inside my house. He wanted to pack up some of their clothes because he said I didn’t do it right.
It was demeaning, demanding, very scary behavior. After seeing this behavior, I did not feel safe sending my kids with him. They were all in the car and I went and I got in the car with them and he grabbed me from the car and threw me on the driveway in front of my children. Then he drove away with my kids in the car. He left me lying on the driveway. I was hysterical, traumatized.
When Law Enforcement Blames The Victim
He injured me. I had an abrasion on my elbow. He tore my clothes in several places. I had bruising on my hip. I called the police. The police came. It was so scary because of what had happened last time when I called the police. My injuries were visible at this point. He still had the children.
The police officer came. He assessed the situation. He talked to my husband who has a prominent position in our community, and he introduced himself with his title, which is impressive to people. I remained calm and I told the police officer what happened. I showed him my injuries and the police officer said that he could leave. The children ended up staying with me, which I was grateful for.
I still to this day have no idea how he didn’t get arrested given the injuries.
Anne: Manipulated the law enforcement.
June: That weekend he called me several times. The next day he came to my house, tried to get in the door, knocking on the door, calling friends and family of mine. He called a bunch of our friends and told them that I was crazy. Meanwhile, I am just trying to figure out how I’m going to survive this situation with an obviously dangerous and abusive person.
I had no time to call anybody to make them see my side of it. That was just not in my capacity. I had this injury, trying to figure out what in the world I needed to do to keep myself and my family safe. I was able to get a restraining order.
The Consequences Of Emotional Abuse
Anne: How did you feel when you went to file the protective order? Did you feel like, what am I doing? How is this happening?
June: Yeah. I was very scared that I wouldn’t be believed first of all because that is what was happening all around me. I was being blamed as the instigator, the angry and scorned woman. Of course I had felt angry. My anger was not driving any of this. My need for safety was.
Anne: By the way, this story. I know it’s horrific and difficult for our listeners to hear this. This is really typical for abuse victims. This period of confusion and what is happening, and he’s blamed you and nobody can understand this is exactly what happened. It happened to me too, but this type of manipulation and coercion with people around is exactly what we start to see. Women can feel like they’re going crazy.
June: Yes, he left me on the side of the road several times when he got angry at me in the car. He would just pull over and kick me out of the car and I would be left there for hours, in different places in front of my children. He withdrew money from our bank account, so I couldn’t buy groceries at this point. I couldn’t buy a birthday cake for my child who had a birthday that day.
He was of course very verbally abusive, but mentally and psychologically and socially aggressive to me and in ways that I couldn’t even recognize because I didn’t know it was going on.
Emotional Abuse & Blame Began When She First Got Married
I didn’t know that he was calling our mutual friends without me present and telling them these stories and painting me as this person who had all of these mental issues.
He would also very frequently embarrass me in public situations that we were together, and make jokes at my expense. He would demean me and be very sexually coercive, trying to get me to do things that I wasn’t comfortable with.
Anne: When you started recognizing the behaviors, did you recognize that he was this way all along, but you just hadn’t seen it?
June: Yes. The trauma became so much greater when I started realizing that I his abuse started from the beginning. On our honeymoon to a foreign country he told me he wanted a divorce. What was he even talking about?
He wanted to leave me in the jungle, alone, in this foreign country. I had no idea how to speak their language or anything. It was very scary. Things like that were happening, but then I would also be so grateful when he would make it right and when he wouldn’t behave in those ways.
It was like this huge relief, it’s almost like he became accustomed to the love bombing and the apology and the honeymoon period that happens.
Getting A Restraining Order But Still Experiencing Emotional Abuse
The restraining order was for myself and my children. For three days I knew that we were to be safe and secure and left alone. I was unsure if he would even abide by the restraining order. Then, I did make the decision to file for divorce at that point. I went to my parent’s house with my children.
My parents live in a different part of the country, but legally I knew that I needed that protection. I needed to go ahead and file for the divorce and be away from the situation. My children and I left in the middle of the night. We had nothing really packed. We drove for a few days and lived with my parents for about four months. While I filed the paperwork for the actual divorce.
It was over the summer. The kids were in summer camps and in all sorts of activities. I received great services from a women’s center. My children received great services at the same place, and it was very much a time of healing and a time of safety and security. Now, it’s not to say that he didn’t abuse that situation.
He would call every day and demanded that it would be on video, which I did facilitate because I was trying to remain reasonable. He would call at all hours of the day, even into the night. Once I couldn’t answer my phone and he called the police to do a well child check in the middle of the night, which was very scary to my children and to me.
When Emotionally Abusive Husband Cuts Of Access To Money
I had asked him also for money to buy diapers for my children, pay for medication and pay for food. I had very little money with me, but I had no means of paying for those things. Before I left in fact, he had taken all of the money that we had, cut me off and transferred it to an account that I did not have access to.
June: I was living on credit cards,
Anne: Took all the money away so you can’t even buy groceries, right? Yeah, that happened to me.
June: I had started on food stamps when I went to this different state. It was purely by knowing that he would not make this right. By getting the restraining order and setting boundaries, his behavior escalated. That was really an answer to me that I did the right thing, because he wasn’t supporting his children. I donated plasma to get some money. We were living with my parents. They supported me and my four children.
At that point, I really liked where we were living. We were around family. His family had also lived nearby. We had seen his family when we were out there. The kids saw their cousins and they were excited about that. I am in a state that very much expects parents to co-parent and to work with each other. It was clear that we would not be able to agree or decide on something that was reasonable together.
Being Blamed By The Court System
We went to court. Unfortunately, there is not a way that the law identifies covert abuse or emotional abuse.
Anne: We see that over and over again where the law does not protect victims of emotional abuse from perpetrators. If there’s no physical evidence and he’s lying and manipulating, there’s no protection for victims. That leaves all of the burden of protecting yourself on the victims themselves.
June: The courts like to give people a chance
Anne: That’s never helpful. If the court held them accountable, it would be more helpful to get the perpetrator to actually make changes and for the victim to be safe.
I think there’s a serious problem in our country right now protecting abusers and it’s scary for the victims.
June: When I walked into the courthouse for our hearing, I didn’t know how it was going to go, and I immediately saw a friend of mine. We had gone to church together and we had done a few other things. She was in a similar situation. She had divorced an abusive person who had an affair. I saw her at the courthouse and she wouldn’t look at me.
My first initial thought was like, oh my goodness, what is she doing here? Maybe she’s here to say hi to me or to support me. She was there with my husband and she was a witness.
Emotional Abuse & Blame From A Friend
She testified that I planned to kidnap my kids.
When that happened, I put it together that they were in a relationship, they were having an affair. I had some other information from a few other people, other evidences of that. I realized what was happening. He manipulated her and blamed me. She did not know the reality of the situation, she knew about the abuse. She knew about the verbal abuse.
I confided in her my fear and I said, I need to have a plan in place, and so that was the extent of the conversation. She had come to court and said that I had planned to kidnap my kids and make up the assault. My husband manipulated her and blamed me.
The damage she caused to me and my children was irreparable. That was a very traumatic moment. It was horrific to realize that while I was in this really dire situation, living with my parents, with my four kids, that he was here having an affair with her and choosing not to support his kids and actively working to discredit me with an employee of the city.
Divorce Proceedings With Husband Still Perpetrating Emotional Abuse
Anne: Can you talk about the divorce proceedings and how those have gone and also your ongoing difficulties with your congregation?
June: Yes, so I came back here and trying to co-parent. My children had experienced trauma, they had anxiety. They were unsure of what kind of situation we were coming back to. I wanted to make that as smooth as I could for them. When I did get back here, I came to the home that I would be living in. It was unkempt.
He took anything he wanted, furniture, valuables. Also, he had left a piece of chewed gum as a message to me. He always said divorced women were like chewed gum. He had disassembled locks and doorknobs from the house.
There were feminine products that were clogging the plumbing of the house.
He had taken the liberty of having people in the church move my personal belongings, my intimate clothing and my children’s clothing. We had no discussion about it. That kind of set the stage for how the period of time since I’ve been back has gone.
Emotional Abuse, Blame From Clergy
He does these things blatantly and there really is no recourse. I’ve asked him for some of my belongings and some of the things that he took without permission. I didn’t get any of that back. That’s been a hard thing. When I did return, I went to church. I made the effort to co-parent and keep my kids as stable as possible.
When I went back to see this bishop. I was actually with my father and he went in with me. I felt safer because my dad was there with me.
Anne: For those of you not familiar with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Instead of choosing the congregation that you go to. You find out where your congregation boundaries are and you go there.
That’s why June didn’t just go to a different church because her boundaries were those particular boundaries and that’s what everyone does within the church. I wanted to give you some background on that as to why she didn’t think, oh, I’ll just go somewhere else.
June: Yes, exactly. I went to my bishop with my father. I said, I don’t know if you know about the situation, but I’m happy to share with you the things that have happened and what my children and I have been through. We’re going to be coming to church here. He stopped me and said, I know that you kidnapped your kids.
Clergy & Church Community Did Not Help, Instead They Blamed Me For My Husband’s Lies
Everyone says that you kidnapped your kids and you have got a serious issue. It was so uncomfortable. I said to him, I didn’t kidnap my own children. First of all, I had a restraining order. Would you like to see it? And I said, my husband is not paying support. He hasn’t been supporting us. I don’t think he should have a calling.
The bishop said, I don’t care about any of that. That stuff does not matter. He didn’t want to see any of the documentation I had. I mentioned to him that my husband was having an affair with another single woman in the ward, and he had no intention of discussing any of that. It was so uncomfortable. By that time I had really learned how to set boundaries and I saw that this was not a good situation.
I just stopped the entire discussion and left. The bishop didn’t hear my side of the story or look at any of the evidence that I had. He had made his mind up. There were a couple of other things that had happened from that point on in our church.
The women have an organization called Relief Society, it is for providing support for the women in the church and those who are in need and ministering to women.
When Church Blamed Her & Refused To Help
I had called the president of the Relief Society and reached out to her about my situation. My husband was still not paying support. We were going to have to garnishee his wages. That could take a period of time to set up.
I was very much in need at that point, I exhausted all of my credit cards, all of my resources that I had. I was in need of food for my children and had nothing to pay for any other bills. If I can get some food for my children for the next few weeks, that is one weight that I don’t have to worry about, at least for right now.
Anne: The church has a bishop’s storehouse where members of the church who are in need can get food, and that’s what she’s talking about.
June: The Relief Society met with me. We had a discussion. I described what was going on, I did not say that my husband was abusive. I didn’t berate or demean the bishop in any way, I just explained to her my need and she called me up a few days later.
She said she had spoken with the bishop and she didn’t believe that my husband could afford to pay the support that the court ordered. The bishop was also saying this. I told her I actually have no money. It was clear that the bishop had that information from my husband. Clearly my husband said he couldn’t afford to pay for it.
Husband’s Emotional Abuse Expands To Clergy & Legal Pressure
He declined to help me and my children with food. They said, I need my children to have some food. That’s it. He said, you’re not being truthful with me. You’re not being honest. Your husband said that he would never leave you or the children in this situation.
He was just believing my husband. I said, he hasn’t given me anything. I have not received anything. He took a lot of the food that was in this house. I have texts and emails of many of these interactions. The bishop came to me a few days later and wanted me to meet with one of his counselors who is actually a lawyer. I had reached out to my own lawyer at that point.
She said, that is grounds for filing a complaint against that lawyer.
That’s grounds for disbarment. You cannot do that. We have an open custody case and divorce proceedings and no one should be asking you to meet with someone else who is a lawyer. I declined to do that. The bishop said that he wanted to go over my finances and that the lawyer, his counselor would be there to help.
I showed the bishop screenshots of my bank account and the bills that that I had no way to pay. He said, you can have some food. I think I had two orders, and then I went to place an order with the Relief Society president. At 10 o’clock at night, and the bishop actually texted me back and said, there will be no more food. If you need food, you need to come in and meet with me and the state president.
Emotional Abuse Continues Through Church Community Blame
These were the same leaders. One of them had abused me and the other had enabled that abuse, and so I was not going to meet with them under any circumstances alone or with someone. That was not a situation I was going to put myself in. He cut off the food and my children and I didn’t receive any more assistance in that manner from my church. I’ll tell you, that was a very, very dark time.
That was very, very difficult. The year before that we paid 10% of our income to the church in voluntary donations for tithes. Here I was now in this situation having no income for myself. My husband wasn’t paying the support and I needed basic things for my children.
I became a bad person for even asking for that and labeled a liar. I look back now and it is a miracle that I even survived that time. The darkness that I felt from betrayal in so many ways, on so many levels and by so many people was so great. I did set the boundary that I would not attend that congregation anymore.
I knew that was no longer going to be a safe place for me or my children when they were in my care. That was a tough decision. I did know that my safety was first. My children’s safety was first and my family’s safety was first.
Being Far Away From Family When The Church Blames You
Anne: . You’re still in divorce proceedings. How have the divorce proceedings gone?
June: We have been in and out of court for almost two years now. When you’re going through divorce in the courts, you have to deal with things like custody and support and visitation, and you have to decide all of these things. If you cannot decide it together, then you go to court. He has violated the order several times in small ways, small ways that I really have no way to address.
He has sworn at me during exchanges and does things to try and elicit a reaction or a response. I never respond, I never react. I have learned to know what I can control and what I cannot control and let the rest go. Going in and out of court has obviously been very expensive. It’s been very time consuming.
Anne: I want to stress that you are in a part of the country that is completely, totally far away from your family and support system.
June: Not only do I not have family here, but because I stepped away from the church and because I have the experiences with my bishop and my state president that I have had. The congregation alienated and ostracized me. They enabled the wrongs committed right in front of them.
June Soldier’s On Despite Continuation of Emotional Abuse
Many people knew that my husband was having this affair, and yet everyone chose to ostracize me. I’m not considered a person who has a testimony anymore because if I had a testimony, why wouldn’t I be coming to church and I’m painted as this feminist who has gone crazy.
I have also received some very, very troubling evidence that the bishop is defaming me in the community and that members, individual church members are doing the same thing.
They use the same language, they use the same words, they use the same phrases to describe me. They talk about my divorce and they talk about the state of my mental health, and it’s very damaging. It’s troubling, and there’s no way again that I can really address it.
Yes, I’m going back and forth to court doing the best I can for my children, trying to advocate for my children. All have special needs in some way or another, and trying to co-parent with a person who will not co-parent in return. He will use every situation to abuse or manipulate in some way.
What June Learned From Being Blamed For Her Husband’s Emotional Abuse
All the while just feeling very alone in what I’m going through.
Anne: Yeah, it stinks. It’s really bad. I was thinking of different things we could put on Facebook and one of ’em was it’s really, really bad. We get it because during this situation, so many people try to tell me or you or other victims, it’ll be okay. It’s not as bad as you think it is. It’s really, really, really bad. You are in a super bad situation.
What helps give you peace when you’re having a really difficult time?
June: It’s interesting. I have cultivated an authenticity in myself that brings me a lot of peace and the relationships that I have now. Although they may be few, they’re meaningful to me because there are people that I do feel very safe with. There are people that have seen the other side of life and how awful and ugly it can be. They still love me and we understand each other.
There’s a sense of empathy that comes with going through trials like this that many people, I think never really get the chance to cultivate within themselves. Standing in my truth and knowing that I have survived. I have survived some of the worst situations that I had ever imagined I’d ever be in.
I will continue to survive, I’ll continue to build resilience and I’ll continue to reach out to others. To gain community and connection with those who have also survived horrific, horrible and unbelievable trials in their lives. That gives me a lot of peace, that sense of community with others who know.
Advice For Other Women Experiencing Emotional Abuse
Anne: Yeah, because you’re still in the thick of things with nothing being final. He’s still doing all these things that are just not right. I hope that you do have a little glimmer of hope that things will get better eventually.
What advice would you have for other women who are in a situation that is really difficult like yours?
June: Learning about boundaries is crucial. You have got to learn about boundaries and how to set them appropriately. If someone is saying inappropriate things to you. Or if someone is not offering you wise or sound or righteous counsel. You need to be able to recognize that and empower yourself to leave that situation immediately.
You don’t even have to explain. Cultivating your own worth within yourself. Knowing that you are a worthwhile and wonderful and lovable and amazing person as you are. In these situations, our worth seems to suffer. How we feel about ourselves seems to really plummet.
It’s important to be able to hold on to the knowledge and the core belief that you are worth it. That you do not deserve to be abused, lied to, manipulated and cheated on or blamed. That you deserve safety and happiness and security and peace. You deserve peace in your life.
Anne: Yeah. When you started recognizing, okay, I need to start setting boundaries, did you imagine that it would get this bad?
When The Emotional Abuse Escalates
A lot of women don’t realize, okay, I’m making my way to safety. This is cool, but they don’t realize it’s going to get a lot worse. Can you talk about that?
June (01:16:39): It definitely can escalate with an unhealthy person. Boundaries will make them escalate, and they will make them more abusive and behave in more unhealthy ways. With a healthy person, I believe boundaries can be great. They will respond in a healthy and respectful way. That was not the case in my situation. When I set the boundary, it escalated things astronomically.
I could have been more prepared, although I knew that the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she decides to separate. It’s dangerous when she initiates separation or when she decides to leave that relationship. Really, when a woman would set those boundaries.
Anne: Yeah. I think a lot of women hear about boundaries, and for some women, their spouse is like, oh, this is a boundary, and they realize that they need to change and they change. It’s a miracle and it’s amazing, but a lot of women don’t talk about when you set that boundary, things escalate and that is terrifying to think about.
Women are more prepared for the escalation of the abuse as they start to make their way towards safety and knowing that doesn’t mean you’re doing the wrong thing. You’re going to be blamed and accused of abuse. It is part of the process of getting to safety. I think it would maybe help women be a little bit more prepared for what’s going to happen.
Difficulties In Trying To Get To Away From Emotional Abuse
June: Yes. I really wish that local women’s shelters and local resources and organizations that address domestic violence and domestic abuse would be more acknowledging of that fact. I called and said, I was experiencing abuse, I don’t know what to do.
If you need to leave very quickly, have the children’s medication and their birth certificates and important papers, you need to get a little bit of money and have those things ready. Well, that’s not a hard thing to do.
Anne: I was going to say, that’s the easy part.
June: Right? That is very basic. Okay. What they don’t tell you is that if your spouse or your significant other who is abusive, reacts in an unhealthy way to these boundaries. Years of legal abuse, years of being blamed and years of financial abuse. I mean, I can’t even begin to describe how this abuse has affected my credit.
We share loans together that he just won’t pay.Those are things that I wish that I would have known. I am fully aware that they want to get women to safety. What is hard is I don’t find a lot of resources that address the long-term subjection to abuse.
Lots of these women do end up suffering when they set the boundary to leave.
Hoping For Safety from Emotional Abuse
Anne: And the abuse doesn’t end. The person continues to lie. They continue to manipulate, if you have children with that person, then it really doesn’t end. We have to learn how to figure out how to be peaceful. How can I find strength through this long-term trial? Because it is a very, very difficult situation for a very long time,
June: And so many states expect you to co-parent, and so you need to know those options legally. You have got to consult an attorney, know the law in your state. Obviously, the best thing for my children is that they have two healthy and stable parents. I would love for that to be the case.
He uses things against me in court, something that I’ll tell him. He’ll bring up and twist it against me. Any way I can be blamed. Learn so you can prepare.
Anne: Which is really, really scary. Oh man, this situation feels impossible. There are options for women. I turn to prayer and pondering to determine the best actions I can take. The answers will come to us, and it might take time and it might take effort, but we will find a way to create safety for us and our children.
June: Exactly. I fully agree. There’s always a solution. I look at things that way sometimes through this journey.
Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.
June: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
How To Recover From Betrayal Trauma – Lynea’s Story
Jul 02, 2024
In the early days of her marriage, Lynea attributed problems with her husband to normal relationship challenges or her husband’s culture. Lynea finally realized she was experiencing betrayal trauma.
If you’re wondering how to recover from betrayal trauma, you’re not alone. Recovery from betrayal trauma is possible. If you need support, we’d love to see you in a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY.
Transcript:
Anne: Welcome Lynea. Let’s start at the beginning of your story. How would you define your husband’s behavior at first? Did you give any reasons for his behavior?
Lynea: We met at university and we we’re both quite young. It was my first real relationship after high school. I just was excited about going to university, we met through a mutual friend and at first I didn’t really see any behavior that was really off.
I didn’t really recognize anything that was different. He was very kind. He acted very thoughtful, made it a point to keep in communication with me regularly, so I didn’t really see anything that was off. I was young too. I was 18 or 19 years old. So
Anne: Even if you could go back in time, you might see something, it’s not anything that you could remember from your perspective now?
What’s Causing The Betrayal Trauma?
Lynea: As the relationship went on, I just wasn’t happy. No matter what I had told him, I felt like even though his behavior might change for some time, and sometimes for long periods of time. It didn’t really matter.
I would tell him something, Hey, this is how you’re hurting me. This isn’t how I’d like you showing up. He would still continue to do the behavior.
Anne: You didn’t recognize it right when you were dating, but when you did start seeing it, what things were you like, Hey, that’s not okay with me. What reasons did you give for those behaviors before you knew more?
Lynea: Just talking about normal things of running a household, keeping things tidy. It always ended up in an argument. I felt that a lot of the load would always be on me to make things happen with groceries, cooking, finances, you name it.
I was always the one to do those types of things and no matter how many conversations I had with him. It seemed like it would always go back to that same thing where he would just forget about the conversation that we had and continue doing his old behavior.
Anne: I want to say “forget about the conversation.” Right. They conveniently forget about it when it suits their purposes. It was mainly about domestic labor then?
Financial Betrayal Causes Trauma
Lynea: Then going out to spending money. He liked to go out and party with his friends and that type of thing. I just was trying to be more conservative when it came to finances. That would always cause an argument too,
Anne: A lot of arguing that you couldn’t quite get a handle on it sounds like.
Lynea: Yeah, it just left me very confused. I just didn’t understand the dynamics of their relationship and I thought for the longest time that was me. Quite honestly, I thought I was the problem.
Anne: So at this time, are you kind of chalking it up to maybe miscommunication? What are you thinking is the Cause
Lynea: He is from another country and I thought that originally maybe it was just very hard for him to assimilate into rural Midwest small university. I thought he was having difficulties with that.
He didn’t seem like he was very happy most of the time and I felt like a lot of the times it was maybe me.
Anne: When you say I thought it was maybe me, was it because he was telling you it was you? A lot of the times we’d have the conversations in order to try to solve something and then he would start telling me that I just complained too much.
When He Blames You For Problems
Lynea: I’m not happy. It escalated over the years too. He called me names and I wondered am I the crazy one?
Anne: Did you recognize at the time the pattern of his exploitation that the reason he was doing this was so that you would do most of the domestic labor?
Lynea: I had no clue. After 24 years together I had no idea.
Anne: Me saying that right now. Are you like, oh, or did you recognize that at some point?
Lynea: I recognized at some point that he just didn’t want to take accountability or responsibility for things. If he did, it was when it was convenient or when things got so bad where he could recognize that I’ve hit my limit, then he would change for a while and there would be better behavior for sometimes several months.
Anne: He was capable of doing it, he just didn’t want to. I think that’s really interesting to bring up because they are capable of doing it. I think they’re just not genuinely that type of a person. So they’re play-acting kindness or they’re playacting equality or they’re play acting genuine empathy and compassion.
If you’re not actually like that, if you’re putting on a show, it would get really exhausting after a while because you’re basically acting all the time and even though you know how to do it, it’s not who you are. I think that’s why they can do it for a while, but then they just get tired.
It’s also why the mask comes off when they are tired or on a trip for example, when it’s a little more stressful or they don’t have their regular coping mechanisms around.
Lynea: Yes, exactly. When he would get a little bit pressed when things weren’t comfortable for him, you could definitely see his reactions more quickly. He would be easily angered, just irritated and just not really a fun person to be around in the house. There’s always this vibe. It just didn’t feel good. It wasn’t pleasant.
Anne: What sort of things did you try in the relationship? Like therapy?
Lynea: He never was open to it. I wanted to go to couples therapy or marital counseling after we got married. He never would do it. He didn’t want to do it, so I was okay with that. I grew up in the church, so I think that this kind of had a big reason for why I was so loyal and so I stayed with him for so long to be honest with you.
I also thought patterns of where he would change for some time. He was capable of it, so it just made sense to me, well, maybe I’m the one. I was a very shy girl. I didn’t have much confidence. I’m completely different now than who I was when I met him.
I was very shy, naive for sure, and I wasn’t very good at speaking to other people. I felt like I didn’t have a lot of relationship skills and so I thought really truly that it was me, I thought that I was having a hard time communicating.
I thought that he just didn’t understand and that it was this man woman dynamic that I just was clueless about. So I read a lot of books. I eventually did get some therapy sessions. I was always in the pursuit of working on myself. What can I do to make things better?
Anne: Most likely it was because he’d led you to believe that you were the problem. I mean, part of it is that the abuse is the convincing of the victim, that it’s not him, but that it’s her. When did you start to recognize that this stuff wasn’t working like therapy and your self-help and stuff like that?
Lynea: Once we graduated college, we moved back into the area where I’m from. We didn’t stay there for very long. We were just really working hard on trying to find careers in our degrees and I got a job in a big city. He started a business and so we were just really working hard for several years on my career.
His business, we actually did have a pretty good dynamic working together, oddly enough. We did that together for at least five or six years. We had a brick and mortar business.
Anne: So you were in business together.
Lynea: He always wants to be perceived differently from other people. So when he’s around other people, he’s great. There are no problems. Because I worked so closely with him, I saw how he interacted with other people, so I knew that he could be a certain way and I thought maybe this was truly who he was. There again, I am the common denominator here, so I must be the problem.
Recovering From Betrayal Trauma Is Hard When You Share A Life
Anne: When did you start to recognize that it wasn’t you, that maybe it was him? Were you aware of porn use or affairs or anything like that?
Lynea: I knew that when he would go visit his friends, they would go to strip clubs and stuff. I knew that one of his friends was into some things even though he was married that I don’t approve of. I told him this, he knew how I felt with prostitution, but I never thought that he would do any of that.
Because he was always very adamant against it and because he knows the problems that it causes in family relationships because he’s gone through some hard things. So I trusted him.
Anne: That’s what he would tell you. Did you ever find out that he had participated in prostitution?
Lynea: No, I’ve never found that out, no.
Anne: So he may have or he may not have. You just never got definitive information about
Lynea: That. Exactly. It wouldn’t surprise me knowing what I know now if he did participate.
Anne: Why wouldn’t it surprise you? Knowing what you know now? What do you know? That might be a clue.
When It Doesn’t Work To Decide To Make It Work
Lynea: In 2018, we decided to move back to his country in Europe to be closer to his family and for him to be also able to help his father with businesses. Our business wasn’t doing so well back in the states, so I invited him to think about doing that because he just seemed like he was very unhappy at the time.
I think that it might’ve been a good change. He had been away from his family for many, many years and I thought just this might be something that he needs. Maybe a fresh start would help him. That’s what we did. We moved in June of 2018.
Anne: Did it help?
Lynea: No, it got worse.
Anne: Sorry, I think if it would’ve helped, you wouldn’t be here, right?
Lynea: Well, in one way it helped because it stirred the hornet’s nest, if you will. Remember we were talking about under stress, somebody acts a certain way. Well, this really was out of his comfort zone, and I realized quite quickly the dynamics of the family wasn’t healthy.
He was having a very difficult time working with his father, and so I chalked up a lot of his habits going out, partying. I had a conversation with him because I wasn’t getting any younger and I always wanted to have children.
Temporary Behavioral Changes That Prolong Betrayal Trauma
He always kept delaying it, postponing it. “Now isn’t the right time.” I finally had a very good conversation with him about what I was envisioning for my future, what I wanted in a partner, what I wanted in a marriage. If this isn’t what he wanted, then no problem. We can split ways, but now’s the time. He said, no, that’s not what I want. His behavior changed for a while.
Anne: So he said, no, I don’t want to change things. I want to stay with you.
Lynea: And then I don’t think it was too much longer after that than I conceived.
Anne: So you finally are able to get pregnant, which is something that you’ve wanted for a long time. And before you do that, he seems supportive and he seems like he’s on the same page as you. Then what happens?
Lynea: And then he goes back into his old pattern of behavior. He’s still going out partying, just generally not helping out with anything. I had made a commitment to myself after moving to this new country that it was a great opportunity for a fresh start. I’m going to work on being the person that I want to work on because so much of my life, I was just doing everything for him and I don’t know how I have the strength to do it.
Become The Woman I Want To Become
Looking back, I really don’t, but I just decided I’m going to go and play full out and become the woman that I want to become no matter what. That’s what I did. I found my own circle of friends, a new church. I found the support that I needed, the friendships that I needed, and I just really focused on that.
Fast forward, my son was born at the end of December in 2019 and the behavior just got worse. It got a lot worse. I was happier when he didn’t come home. He was traveling a lot for business. I gave him my support so that he could travel and learn a new skill.
I actually had peace in the house for once. It just really got me thinking it’s much worse, much, much worse than I originally had thought.
Anne: Why do you think it took him being away, and we find this with most victims of emotional and psychological abuse that it’s very difficult to see how bad it is while you’re still in constant contact with them while they’re still living in the house. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that being away from him helped you see it, and if so, why do you think that was?
Experience Peace And Clarity With Support
Lynea: Yeah, I totally think that being away from him helped me see it because thinking back to when we had moved to the big city and we were doing our business together. It was like the same kind of routine almost every day.
We were working a lot and then we would come home and it’d be the same dynamic and I like to have people over at the house. He never wanted to do that. Looking back, I see that he really isolated me from my friends. He most certainly isolated me from my family on purpose, and that’s been very difficult.
Now a relationship with my family is better than it’s ever been, and we are able to really discuss what has happened over the years and it makes complete sense now. It really does.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our specialty is psychological and emotional abuse, which is horrific. Many women who’ve had physical violence say that definitely the emotional and psychological stuff was much more difficult to recover from, but just from your perspective, blocking doors or breaking things, did any of that happen?
Lynea: When we were younger, I remember some of those things happening and he was always into TaeKwonDo and I got into doing it as well. He was quite good. He got up to be a second degree black belt, and I remember that we would spar together and I just feel like he was overly aggressive on purpose.
Betrayed By Physical Intimidation
So there was an excuse as to why, but it was just that kind of thing. There was an instance, here, after I had my son that he was aggressive and he scared me and I went to block him and he said that I hit his sunglasses and he busted his eyebrow. I don’t see how that’s possible.
Anne: Well, if you’re an awesome at TaeKwonDo, maybe! I’m kidding.
Lynea: Yeah, exactly
Anne: That. Oh, we’re just wrestling around, but they do really have the intent to hurt you or are they kind of bumping you all the time or stuff like that? That’s covert physical abuse where they are sort of pushing you around and throwing their weight around. To let you know, “Hey, I could hurt you.”
Lynea: I do remember that, and I thought it was always his way of when you’re teenagers or whatever, and it’s kind of like the childish boy way of getting the girl’s attention. I just thought he never grew up in that way. I always told him that I really don’t appreciate that. We’re adults. Touch me nicely. I didn’t really understand that.
Anne: In addition to you getting therapy and trying to talk him into it, which he didn’t want to do, was there anything else that he tried or you tried maybe 12 steps or addiction recovery or anything like that?
He Never Wanted To Work On His Issues
Lynea): No, he never wanted to work on his issues. He said it wasn’t a problem, but it was a problem because it was continually coming up in our conversations.
Anne: It’s interesting to me that he was like a health coach, but not healthy at all. Did that strike you at the time as maybe hypocritical or ironic or was he just so good at manipulation?
Lynea: We had conversations about that. I’m like, physically, you’re in amazing shape. You play sports, go to the gym every day and you eat well. Why continue having some of these bad habits that just don’t line up? It doesn’t really make sense if the puzzle pieces don’t fit. He didn’t like to have those conversations.
Anne: Talk about how you recognized it was him and then maybe what led you to seek safety
Lynea: The last couple of years before we moved here to Europe. I think that’s when my journey really started of being aware that no matter what I do, no matter how well I behave or how I change things up or how I switch things around or whatever I do, it’s never enough.
It’s never right. It never changes anything, and so I think that’s what gave me the courage just to live for myself. To do what I want to do and seek the things that I’m passionate about, create my circle of friends. Just moving here gave me that ability to do that and I’m so glad that I did because it really opened my eyes. I did have what I call the day of discovery. I was back home.
Shocking Discovery Of Infidelity, The Pain Of Betrayal Trauma
Anne: When you say back home, do you mean in the States?
Lynea: Yes. We were traveling, my son and I went back home to visit my family for Thanksgiving. We had been there for a while and it was early November. I remember getting up and I was checking my email and I got two emails from somebody that I still to this day don’t know.
They were just letting me know that my husband’s been cheating on me nearly the entire time that we had moved to Europe. I was trying to hide it from my parents because there wasn’t a very good relationship there with them because of everything that’s happened.
I was just kind of in shock really. So I called him up and of course he denied it at first and then about an hour later he actually called me back and he confessed to it, but he said that it wasn’t anybody in particular. They’re not important. He wants to work on our marriage. He’s so sorry.
Anne: It wasn’t anyone in particular, meaning he was having affairs with multiple people or just the one person he was having an affair with for a long time was just no one special.
Lynea: I said, it’s just one person. He is like, no, not just one person. He just was very general about it.
Anne: When I said earlier, did you know of any affairs or anything? Was it just because at that point in the story you didn’t know?
Understanding The Full Extent Of Betrayal Trauma
Lynea: Exactly that point in the story? I didn’t know. No, I had no idea. This was my big eyeopener and then things just started clicking into place
Anne: And What do you mean by clicking into place?
Lynea: The blindfold had been removed from my eyes and I saw him for what he was. I just understood this is the reality of it, and I knew that I was going to really need some help navigating this because I had a one-year-old son living in a foreign country, zero family here.
That’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Oh my goodness, that was a game changer for me. I know that I wouldn’t be the person I am sitting here today feeling the way I’m feeling, being able to share without the support of BTR. The first time, I was just searching online.
I remember I got a therapist from somewhere else online. I did a couple of sessions and I’m just like, Nope, she’s not getting it.
I needed somebody that understood betrayal trauma because it’s complicated, it’s complex. When I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and I remember reading through the landing page. I just was like, this is it.
Finding Support & Validation Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions
I attended a Betrayal Trauma Group Session for the first time and I was early. I’m always early to everything. When I joined the group session, I was thinking to myself, okay, there’s only going to be five or six other women joining this session at most.
More and more women just kept joining the session and I was seeing all of these faces pop up and these windows. Well over 20 women, with every woman, I had some understanding and it was resonating with me in some way. I just remember feeling so grateful that I’m not crazy.
For years, I felt crazy. For years I thoughtI had mental illness, depression, that I was the problem, and so I couldn’t get enough. I read a lot of the books that you guys offered on your website, I downloaded your book from Amazon as well. Everything was just making so much sense and I had never heard of anything like this.
I did one or two Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions then I realized I really need to get some one-on-one coaching. So I tried BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. Then I paired up with one of your amazing coaches and that was just such a wonderful experience. It just really helped me so much with what I was navigating.
Necessity Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions
Going through divorce, trying to co-parent and also child custody. It was so valuable, so valuable because I didn’t have to sit there and try to explain to somebody that has never experienced any of this before. She knew exactly what I was talking about. She just had really good advice about how to navigate a really difficult time in my life.
Anne: I’m so happy to hear that. That is our goal here is to really help women. Because I experienced it and everyone who works at Betrayal Trauma Recovery experienced going to a therapist and then kind of educating the therapist, so we don’t get help.
We’re trying to help them help us, and that doesn’t actually make sense. So many people just don’t see this from an abuse perspective. When you got that information that he was abusive, how did you feel about that at first? Did it hit like, oh, this is what it is, or did it take a minute? Were you like, I don’t know about that. Can you talk about your journey to realizing that he’s abusive?
Lynea: I went back and forth for a long time and I’m just going to be completely honest with you. There’s even days that I have recently that I questioned that maybe it was still me, as crazy as that sounds. It is a long journey to recover from betrayal trauma.
Accepting Reality Of What Caused Betrayal Trauma
Anne: Doesn’t sound crazy. All of us have been through that.
Lynea: All the truth is there. Everything’s out there on his behavior, everything over the years and it’s like I always have to go back, no, this is what you did. This is what you tried. This is your thought process behind the things. Remember the feelings. It takes a long time to get out of that cycle of thought or the abuse pattern. It’s been a journey.
Anne: Before we talk about this, I want to say that at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re not pro divorce, so whatever any of our clients feels like is the right thing for them. We meet them where they’re at. Your emotional safety and your psychological safety is our top priority. This is why I created The Living Free Workshop.
You decided that divorce is the best option and let him know. I’m guessing he didn’t react to that.
Lynea: I was open to giving it another chance. Remember I was visiting the United States and then I came back right before Christmas to Europe. Because of the conversations that we had that we would work on it and he needed to go see a psychologist or a therapist of his choice. My ultimatum, attending therapy, he only went to two sessions.
He said, I really like the person that I’m seeing, but that doesn’t work for me. I said, okay, well, that’s where we are. Then I think divorce is the best option. He went on to say that, and also, I don’t believe in marriage anymore.
Betrayal Trauma: Understanding Their Exploitative Character
I said, well, there’s not much that we can debate with that. If you don’t believe in marriage anymore, then you don’t believe in marriage. I guess I don’t know really what to say to that. Then he proceeded to ask me, my jaw about hit the floor, if I would consider having an open marriage.
I said, no, no, that’s definitely not for me. He knows my values. He knows how I feel about marriage, so I said, no. I know that I’d let him know two times, if not three times I’m going to file for divorce. When he actually got served the papers, was furious.
Anne: I find that to be so awful and scary, but also very interesting that generally speaking, they don’t want to get divorced. Which leads me to the conclusion that for them it’s about exploitation. They don’t necessarily want a marriage, but they enjoy the fruits of a partner, someone who will do things for them, childcare or meals.
It’s more of an exploitative relationship where they realize you’re a powerful, awesome person. There’s things that being associated with you bring into their lives, and so they don’t want to lose that association. They don’t want to lose the access to all of your talents and your passion and all the good things about you.
Dealing With Betrayal Trauma And Moving Forward
They just don’t want to participate in a relationship, but they want to be able to exploit you. That’s the only thing I’ve been able to figure out because if they don’t want to be married, why do they want to be married? It’s hard to wrap our heads around that.
Lynea: Yeah, it really truly is, and that’s really been one of the hardest things for me to realize that I really don’t think he ever loved me. It is a huge part of recovering from betrayal trauma. He discarded me after being with him for over two decades. That’s crazy, and I just had his son and through my pregnancy and delivery and all of that, that’s a whole other story that we could go into on the treatment.
It’s ugly and it’s very, very painful, and that’s why I just, I want to share my story and let people know. Let women know that they’re not alone and it’s not them. They’re not crazy. There’s no shame in being deceived.
Anne: Well, exploiters use your strengths against you. You’re a compassionate, caring person and they use that to their own benefit. They’re not part of a team and it’s hard to realize like, oh, I’ve never been part of a team. It’s not because you’re not absolutely amazing and worthy of love.
They’re incapable of that because their character is one of exploitation. They have an exploitative character and they also think that that’s sort of what a relationship is.
Reflecting On Recovery From Betrayal Trauma
Lynea: Exactly, yeah. Instead of like a partnership. I felt a lot of times that I was his competition, but I thought, well, his personality type is he’s always in it to win it. Whether it’s or just being good at school. That was his strength, so I would always kind of back off also as being his wife.
Oddly enough, I was thinking about this the other day and I’m just thankful and grateful that I could laugh about this now, but guess who’s married already? Yeah, of course. The guy who’s not into marriage.
Anne: He feels uncomfortable when he is not able to exploit someone.
Lynea: Yeah. That’s a miserable way to live.
Anne: I want all women to know this. They have a really hard time being alone because their power does not come from personal responsibility. Their quote unquote, power comes from exploiting us. Then if you think about it, who is the powerful one?
An abuser will always lead you to believe that you’re going to be nothing without him, but it’s the opposite. He is going to be nothing without us because he has nothing, because all the power that he has is stuff that he exploited from someone else. Is he going to actually clean the bathroom?
Gratitude For Growth On The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Journey
Lynea: Yeah, I doubt it because
Anne: He would be a powerful person if he had personal responsibility if he cleaned the bathroom, but he doesn’t. I want to always point out to women that makes him powerless.
Lynea: Just trying to co-parent with him, I laugh about co-parenting because it’s nothing of the sort, but he’s still trying to shame me. He brings up things of the past, hints around that I’m a bad mom trying to get me back into that crazy making cycle.
Anne: You’ll get stronger and stronger. So Lynea, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about how to recover from betrayal trauma, today and share your story. We really appreciate it.
Lynea: My pleasure. Thank you for all that you do.
Did Complementarian Ideas Contribute To Emotional Abuse? – J.R.’s Story
Jun 25, 2024
In this episode of The BTR.ORG Podcast, host Anne Blythe speaks with J.R. about her struggles after discovering her husband’s infidelity and emotional abuse. They discuss problems that can occur in religious and legal frameworks, and the possible impact of complementarian ideas. The conversation underscores the resilience required to confront and navigate emotional and spiritual abuse.
Part Three: How Complementarian Ideas May Contribute To Emotional Abuse (THIS EPISODE)
Can Complementarian Ideology Perpetuate Emotional Abuse?
Transcript:
Anne: I have JR back on today’s episode several months back. We had the beginning of her story, which we linked to on our website, btr.org. You can go there and it lists all of the episodes that she’s been in.
We wanted to take a break to give her time to process what she had talked about all of the events leading up to her divorce, so if you have not listened to that yet, go there. Listen to that first. Her first episode is titled, My Husband Says I’m The Problem, and that aired on March 26th, 2024, so you can go back and look at that in Apple podcasts. Welcome back J.R.
J.R.: Thank you, Anne. I’m glad to be back.
Gender Dynamics Complementarian Ideas Can Explore
Anne: Last time we were talking about how misogyny is systemic through church institutions, through society, also as it relates to complementarian ideas. I’ve talked with women all over the world from every religion, from no religion. Like atheist women or women who are agnostic and they have faced the same problems, but in different ways through the court system or through their workplace.
Are you surprised at how systemic the misogyny is and how difficult it really is to get out of abuse?
J.R.: I feel like I’ve never been a super optimistic person. I’m probably more of a realist, I definitely had more hope in the justice system and in our institutions, especially in religious institutions, in just people in general.
I have to say that I’ve become pretty jaded. I mean, at this point I’m healing. I’m growing. We work in process, so I am working through a lot of bitterness about the system and the church specifically. I didn’t grow up in what I would consider this complementarian male led sort of spiritual atmosphere, but in my formative young adult years.
On meeting my husband, he taught a lot of these really toxic patriarchal teachings and then used them against me. I’ve seen it time and time again and it was very surprising to me.
Anne: For people who are unfamiliar with complementarian views or that paradigm of viewing gender roles, can you talk about that just briefly for people who are unfamiliar with that?
What A Victims Entire Story Can Tell Us About ALL The Challenges of Emotional Abuse
J.R.: What attracts people to complementarian ideas? If they have good intentions, is that it’s sort of this hierarchical structure that God put in place in the Bible, that it puts husbands as the heads of their wives. Then in a church structure, it would put men in positions of authority and it absolutely.
In many areas, it completely disqualifies women for even holding a leadership or authority position in the church. I guess that was supposed to put it in a good light, but that didn’t really put it in a great light because it’s very hard.
Anne: I don’t know if there is any way to put it in a good light, but now I’m going to ask you the question that might put it in a good light. Which is when you were first introduced to it, what spoke to you about it? Is there anything about complementarian ideas that you thought, oh, this is intriguing,
My guess is that you would not be drawn to complementarian ideas. Where you were then it makes sense that you were back then. What are the ideas are compelling about it?
J.R.: It’s interesting because I was not interested at all when it was first introduced to me. Actually, I listened to, well then I guess he was maybe my fiance at the time. I don’t even know if I was married to my ex, but he wanted me to listen to this sermon by a preacher that will go unnamed who has become the sore spot for me.
Complementarian Teachings Spill Over Into Custody Cases
Anne: Is this a famous preacher, someone you could find on the internet or is this a local preacher?
J.R.: He’s famous. Can I name drop him? Is that okay? Yeah. Okay, so it was John MacArthur who I didn’t,
Anne: I have no idea who that is.
J.R.: Oh, good. Bless you. I’m glad that you don’t because it’s terrible. My ex had me listen to the sermon, and I remember we were at his Bible college at the time. We were sitting in an empty room on campus, and I watched this sermon. By the end of it, I was just bawling because I had never seen someone or heard someone be so cruel and ruthless and just not compassionate at all from the pulpit like that.
The way he talks about women and what our roles are and why we’re made the way we’re made. Basically laying complementarian ideas. At that point, I hadn’t even started my journey of starting to have children or motherhood or being a wife or anything.
I didn’t have personal experience. I just sat there feeling if I was a woman who either just didn’t want to have children, maybe wanted to be married but wasn’t finding the right person. Or maybe was struggling with infertility, whatever it was, that hearing this, it would just feel like a slap in the face. That God designed you for these things and basically apart from these things, you don’t have worth.
Examining Why Complementarian Ideas Can Be Problematic
I mean, at that point, looking back, I can see why I felt that way because it all within the context of marriage and motherhood. I’m a young single woman, the way he framed it, I’m not fulfilling the purpose of my life. In complementarian style teaching the only thing you are supposed to be is a mother and a wife. I remember crying, I remember resisting, but I really loved Jesus.
My faith is very important to me, and between my ex and then the pastor early on in our marriage, I just felt like, I guess they’re using scripture. I guess that’s what it says, I guess that’s what it means. I guess I need to conform to complementarian ideas, and so I kind of did it reluctantly, to be honest.
Anne: It’s not like it spoke to you. You’re saying I resisted it, but I sort of was coerced. Would you say
J.R.: A hundred percent I would use that word, especially now that I’ve done a lot of my own growing and kind of reflecting. Yes, say coerce because I mean, there are instances, I’ve always loved music, musical theater and different things. I signed up to audition for the voice, so kind of silly. It was like this fun thing I was going to do with my mom.
Anne: Coerced. Did your fiance have a job? I just want to bring up the misogyny here, right? Did the pastor say to him, you should not work at this job because it’s in the world?
J.R.: Oh, but that’s the thing. My fiance was the only other staff member on the staff at this church, and I remember my family was really upset. It caused a really big argument and kind of a rift between me and my parents and my sister because they were like, what are you doing? This is your passion. This is what you want.
Why are you not pursuing this? And I pretty much, I parroted all of the scripture back to them, and I got very protective personally. What I experienced in this complementarianism, this sort of bubble. It was like I needed to protect my marriage because I wasn’t my own autonomous person. Well, we were, but I had to defer to him.
Really there was no me. There was only him because if there’s one, and I don’t have a say, well, who’s the one? It’s him.
What Men Mean When They Say “We’re One”
I repeated all this to them, and they expressed concern. However, I am newly married and felt the need to respect my husband, that’s the basis for complementarian ideas. I embraced everything they told me, believing it aligned with the Bible. That was enough for me to decide this is my path now.
Anne: Are you surprised and shocked to find out it was just psychological abuse, not God? Another argument suggests that God created you and gave you these amazing talents.
Don’t hide your candle under a bushel. I guess the scriptures only apply to men. They don’t apply to women got this candle and they’re telling you to hide it under a bushel.
J.R.: Right? Well, until it came to leading worship in the church, which they used me for and didn’t compensate, and it was very, yeah. Oh, yeah. So to answer your question, yes, at the time I never used the term abuse. Honestly, until I started listening to BTR. There was a lot of toxicity. There was a lot of stuff I did see in my marriage, but it took a long time for me to be able to use that word and to see it for what it’s,
Anne: I think so many women when they come out of that because they’re trying to be so righteous, they really genuinely love truth and they love God. They want to do the right thing so much that they’re willing to sacrifice themselves to the idea of complementarian theology.
Fighting For Custody During Divorce
I’m like, wow, women are brave and strong and powerful, and they’re making these decisions because they’re such courageous, incredible people. There’s nothing about sacrificing everything about yourself that is weak, zero things, that is super, super strong.
Realizing that I was unknowingly coerced into sacrificing it to wickedness is devastating and heartbreaking. I thought I was doing the right thing. It’s so hard to deal with all this gendered emotional and psychological abuse. I have been actively working to get Om’s Law passed in Utah because my friend Leah Moses’ son was murdered.
Some of you have seen me in the news doing that. If you go to our YouTube channel, you can go to Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s YouTube Channel, and then we have a playlist. It’s BTR in the News, and you can see all the new stuff involved in trying to pass that bill. I bring that up because even agnostic or atheist women or religious women who experience it in their faith and then also in the court system are shocked like, wait, wait, wait.
I thought the justice system would help protect me from abuse. What is going on? Why is it getting worse? Let’s start talking about that divorce. In our last episode with you, you got to the point where you were ready to divorce and your sister was helping you.
The Decision To Divorce
Let’s get to that point your sister tells you. If you haven’t listened to that and you want to hear the first part, go back. You decide, I’m going to file for divorce. Talk about what happens next, sort of what your mindset was at the time. This was how many years ago?
J.R.: It was the end of 2020 that we separated. We briefly tried to make it work, got back together again, at the end of 2020, but it was January of 2021. At this point, three years ago.
Anne: Those of us who have been, I’d say out of the fog for a long time, you view things differently over the years. Three years ago, where you are in your mind is going to be drastically different from where you are today as you talk about it. Can you kind of take us back in time to your mindset and how you thought about it back then when you decided to file?
J.R.: I decided to file because I had a pretty severe mental breakdown and was in the hospital because I was suicidal, and that linked with getting back together with him. When I came out of the hospital, I still wasn’t going to leave him, but his actions in that week following that incident just solidified for me that he would never change.
Surprise & Struggle Over Custody Claims
That it would never get better, that I couldn’t put myself back in that situation. Friends of ours, or they’re more friends of mine, I would say. We went to their house. I asked them if they would be present for me to tell him that I wanted the divorce, and I had written a letter and I read it to him. I know the friends who there found it so shocking that he lacked of any kind of feeling.
They’re watching friends that they know really well and that they’ve watched in ministry, start a family, all these things, and they’re watching. As I’m telling him the heartbreaking story of why I need to divorce him, and he’s just emotionless, emotionless.
I had already seen a lawyer. I had already had a lawyer come up with an agreement that included it, said that I would be the primary custodian or the primary caregiver. That he would be partial, that he would’ve partial custody.
Now I’m like, how did I miss that this is going to be an issue and he started fighting me on that. At this point in time, going back to 2021, I have three children. They are probably like three, two and less than a year old, and I have been a stay at home mom with them their whole lives.
I remember a conversation with him where I was saying something about me being the primary caregiver, and he was like, well, I don’t see how you’re the primary caregiver. I was like, wait, I am literally with them more of the time. It’s not a question.
Navigating Custody & Complementarian Ideology
Anne: Also, wait a minute, all this complementarian stuff,
Anne: You’re suddenly throwing it out the window when it doesn’t suit you, because didn’t you tell me the whole time I’m the primary caregiver. They’re not the most logical folks. These abusers, they use the arguments when it suits them, but then when it doesn’t, they just throw it out the window.
J.R.: They have to grasp at straws when they realize it’s all falling apart. I’ve just seen in co-parenting with this person that they’ll say the craziest things. They will contradict themselves all over the place. You think we’re talking about the justice system, you would think it would be so obvious to anyone with a brain.
It just, for some reason, and this is why I, okay, sorry, I’m getting all over the place. I’m getting ahead of my thought.
Anne: You can go all over the place if you want to go ahead. I’ll just bookmark it for our audience and for you, we are at that. You’re surprised that he’s contesting that you’re the primary caregiver.
The Decision To Speak Out
J.R.: This is why I’m here. My current husband, he is with me right before getting on this call. I was just so nervous. My stomach was so sick, I was like, I don’t know.
Why am I doing this? What am I doing? And he reminded me, he’s like me, you’re doing this because it’s important to you and the lies and the voices in your head that they don’t want you to be speaking out to be confident.
To be helping other people, to be sharing your story. All that being said, you feel crazy. It’s that C word, that horrible C word. I felt it for so long. It’s what BTR helped me to realize that I wasn’t. You feel that way with the justice system or injustice system and the people who are supposed to help. They’re just, where are they? It’s infuriating.
Anne: You’re surprised, right? Because this goes against all of his complementarian values that you are the primary caregiver. Which he’s told you multiple times about your quote “role here on Earth.” Without that you’re nothing. Talk about that, how that went down in court. You said it didn’t go well. Did he end up fighting it successfully?
Custody Decisions That Lead To More Abuse
J.R.: At the time, I was not in a great place. I had just come out of the hospital. I was just trying to get on my feet again. Although I will say I got a job. I got my kids into a daycare, got health insurance for all of us, which he never had for us all within a week.
I’m just so tired and I want it to be over. I fought back basically over the next month or two. I worked with my lawyer and my lawyer was working with his lawyer and him, and it was just back and forth, and he wasn’t going to concede to that.
To me, being the primary caregiver or having primary custody, hindsight is 2020. I now know better. If I had known better, I would have taken him to court and easily won custody, but I am still trying to be reasonable. Well, that’s not fair, because I was reasonable.
Anne: Let me put words in your mouth here, and if I’m wrong, you can correct me. You thought like, oh, since this makes sense, since any regular person I could do this with, this will probably work. Not realizing they are not normal. They’re an abuser.
Navigating Divorce & Custody Challenges
J.R.: Yes, exactly. I just thought, I don’t have the money to go to court, I don’t have the mental capacity right now to go to court. I just want to move forward. At the time, I would say to people, I would say, he’s a fine dad.
He’s just a terrible partner, and now he’s really shows his true colors. Of course, I made him look good. I made him look like a good dad, so now we’re not together, and it’s very obvious that he’s not a good dad. Okay, we’ll do 50/50. I have regretted that every day since.
Anne: Are you still 50/50?
J.R.: Unfortunately, I did take him to court last year, and it was a brutal experience. The judge slut shamed me. My ex brought in a local politician who he somehow connected with, who for some reason sat and observed when they didn’t allow my husband to come in.
He brought people in who had a bone to pick with me, who perjured themselves on the stand. I mean, it was a mess. It was such a mess. By the end, nothing changed. They just said, everything seems to be working just fine, so we’re not going to change anything. The Ongoing Struggles of Co-Parenting with A Man with No Integrity
Challenges In Co-Parenting & Custody Agreements
Anne: I brought him to court for this reason.
J.R. : Exactly, because
Anne: Everything was working fine. No,
J.R.: Yeah. I picked up all the pieces. My big thing was I love my kids. Of course I’m going to do everything for them. I’m never going to let a custody agreement or order stop me from making sure they have what they need for school or whatever.
I’m using air quotes for 50/50 every time, I say that I’m doing 50% of the work, but I don’t have the rights to operate as though I have that custody. He would argue with me about medical things, he would argue about anything he could possibly argue about, and it was just things that I always took care of.
He was always happy for me to take care of them. But now, if I made a decision and he just felt like it one day, he would just nitpick it and he would say, that’s not, I don’t agree. We’d go back and forth and it’s like I didn’t have the right legally to do certain things because we’re 50/50.
Surviving An Abuse & Fighting For Justice
Anne: I was in the same exact boat that you are in for eight years dealing with my abusive ex. He caused problems every single day, he cancelled medical appointments, he didn’t want the kids to take any extracurricular activities.
He would try to coerce them into not doing literally simple things like baseball or taking trombone lessons, piano lessons. I took my ex to court and did not get custody even though I had a current protective order and pictures of bruises.
I was so mad. I’m trying to work for victims everywhere. I have a master’s degree and you know, stuff like that. I think like, okay, I should be able to figure this out. I’m like, if I can’t figure this out, no one can Literally, nobody can. My ex is an attorney. He just walked in the guardian ad litem, they like we’re in the same attorney club.
Oh I get it . The thing was over. I was so mad like, what, I’m doing everything right. I have all the documentation, I have everything and I can’t be free from abuse. I’m being abused almost every day by his messages.
Deliverance Through Faith & Hard Work
I started really praying and fasting about it and just pondering and just praying for deliverance. I feel like I was led and guided, I know that if you’ve been spiritually abused, that is triggering. It’s hard talking about God because that’s how a lot of women got abused.
Telling that part of the story is important because I promised God, if you deliver me, I will shout it from the rooftops. This was not me. This was an absolute miracle. My sister who’s not religious, she was like, no, you did it.
You did it through your hard work. You had the ideas. And I’m like, no, no, no, these were from God and she’s kind of mad at me sometimes because she’s like, no, you’re a hard worker. You should tell people all of the hard things that you did.
Take that with a grain of salt whether you’re religious or not, that like that’s kind of what happened. So because I was able to deliver myself and my kids from abuse using strategy and not going to court, I was like, I’ve got to let other people know.
Transformational Strategies For Overcoming Abuse
For two years after that I tested it with local people in my area, tested the strategies, helped them with their messages. Did all The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies and helped them get delivered. I was like, is this just a fluke, right? Is this just me? Then I thought, I’m going to test this out
We tested it and miracle after miracle has occurred with these strategies and it makes me mad that a victim who hasn’t done anything wrong, she’s doing everything right. She’s reporting, she’s telling people what’s going on. They’re not listening.
I want to emphasize that like I was doing everything quote unquote “right.” You know, I’m a good communicator, I am a good mom, you know all that stuff. That’s not what’s going on here. This isn’t about how skilled you are at being a mom or a communicator.
This is about knowing what tactics they use and the traps that they use and how to avoid them through strategy. That’s what I teach in the Living Free Workshop. Then when you complete The Living Free Workshop, then you can take The Message Workshop and the Message workshop is tools to write strategic messages to these abusers to deliver ourselves.
Importance Of Taking The Living Free Workshop Before The Message Workshop
The reason why you have to take Living Free first before you can take The Message Workshop is because all of the strategies build on each other. We’ve seen awesome success and I’ve trained the coaches so they can help women do it if they’re still having a little bit of trouble applying it.
Taking The Living Free Workshop helps a ton. Because the thing that I realize and you might be realizing, well you know this is not about the kids. Yeah. They don’t care about the kids. They only care about control over the kids and also control over you.
If they didn’t have the kids to use to continue to harass you or bother you or continue to be able to sort of be entertained by the chaos that they cause in your life. They wouldn’t have anything because they’re not interested in parenting, but they are going to be interested.
Is he remarried in in finding someone else to exploit, right. Marrying someone else that they’re gonna exploit and they’re gonna exploit them for childcare to take care of their kids and stuff. Is he remarried yet?
J.R.: He dates a lot. He’s moved women in women and their children into his home with my kids without
Anne: Telling me. Wow. Wow. The super righteous guy.
J.R.: He let his true colors show.
Discussion On Misogyny & Judgment
Anne: He’s definitely an abuser and exploiter. Because he only uses them when it serves his purposes.
J.R.: Right. Yes. My story, like since leaving him has been pretty wild too. People have made a lot of judgments about me. I said about the judge, like slut shaming me on the stand. That’s because I got pregnant out of wedlock after leaving my ex.
Anne: Sorry, sorry. But your, your ex had sex out of wedlock just like you did.
J.R.: Right, exactly.
J.R.: There’s the misogyny at play. He can’t get pregnant. I actually wrote an open letter to the judge. I brought that point up that if our sexual activity were pertinent to the custody case for our children, then why didn’t we ask him about his sexual partners? But it wasn’t about our sexual partners, it was about the fact that I had a baby.
Which I also have taken very good care of and have proved to be a very good mother regardless of men who don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. I felt like I had to say that because of what you said about him, like being a religious guy and everything.
I know that people look at me and think, oh well is she who she always said she is? It’s like, well actually you know what? I don’t know. I’m discovering who I am because for 10 years he stamped it out of me.
Personal Growth & Overcoming Coercion
Anne: It’s okay to change your mind. It’s okay to to be like, wait a minute, this was coercion and I don’t want to do this. That’s not what they’re doing. They’re not like, Hmm, you know what, the more I think about it, the more this is really misogynistic so I’m gonna make sure that I’m a good partner.
That would be growing. Right? No, they’re not doing that. They’re just finding another way to abuse or another way to coerce or their current target abusing her in a way that works.
If their current target’s not religious, they’re not going to use spiritual coercion or complementarian ideas on their current target because that’s not going to work. They’re going to try something else. I’m sorry. That’s awful. We’re getting really personal.
J.R.: Oh to I, listen, I came on here.
Anne: I’m assuming you did not end up marrying the father of this child?
J.R.: No, I believe it’s important because I have overcome a lot of self-shaming and self-hatred due to experiences after that relationship. Now, I look back with compassion because I always wanted to love and be loved.
That did not happen in my marriage. I spent a long time begging for it.
How My Last Baby And Faith Led Me To Healing
Once I got out, I was very broken and engaged in pretty risky behavior, regardless of religious views. Things that just weren’t good for me. They weren’t healthy for me. My daughter, my last baby might have saved my life honestly. I was just going down a really bad road. Of course this was all, whenever I didn’t have my children, it was 50 50.
Trying to fix what was broken and obviously it wasn’t working. I wasn’t actually healing. I got pregnant and I thought it was gonna ruin my life, but it actually I think saved me. It stopped me from continuing down the path I was on.
The father wanted me to abort and I wouldn’t. He said that he didn’t want anything to do with it. I considered adoption. He said he didn’t want anything to do with that either. Then shortly after that I met my current husband who came into my life because I am a spiritual person. I had been praying for God to send me a Boaz.
If you know the story of Ruth, it’s basically in that story Boaz is what’s called the kinsman redeemer. You know, I was in this place, I’m like, I’m a strong independent woman.
Finding Healing & Faithfulness After Divorce
I don’t need a man. I prayed that God would send me someone to take up the responsibility and role my husband was supposed to fulfill. And they would fulfill what I felt like I was promised through making my vows.
Anne: Making your vows to your ex?
J.R.: Sorry, to my ex. Yeah. That one
Anne: Kind of like, I’ve been faithful to my vows now I need someone who will be faithful to the vows as well. Idea.
J.R.: You know, I’m not gonna like sugarcoat it looking back like I know everything out there and the advice I would give to women is just to wait, like give it time. I’m not advocating for like this because of my situation. Things did move pretty fast with my current husband because I was pregnant. It was kind of like, well are you in or are you out? If you stick around like I’m gonna have this baby.
I wasn’t really like messing around. We got married last year and he is a wonderful father to all four of my kids. God has done a lot of healing in me through being in a healthy relationship.
The Impact of Therapist Advice
Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute because a lot of therapists, especially the pornography, addiction, recovery community, a lot of like pastoral counseling. I’m going to say almost all therapists would say something like, if you don’t work it out with this man that you are with the abuser, then you will marry another abuser.
Also all marriages are hard and all relationships are really difficult. There’s no reason to call it quits on this one because the next one that you get is just going to be this hard. Women are like, oh, okay. Then they try to make it work because they don’ think they can have a relationship that isn’t just a hard slog all the time.
I’ve talked to friends who remarried healthy men and I don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s so easy. Not that it’s easy because they have difficult things that occur, but the relationship itself is, is that how you feel? Can you talk about that for a minute?
J.R.: I think some of what you were saying with the way therapists view needing to work out kind of your stuff before getting in another relationship. That’s really linked to the whole codependent idea or co-addicted.
Overcoming The Challenges of Abuse and Self-Growth
Anne: Which by the way, listeners, you are not, you are just right victims of abuse. But someone might tell you that like, you chose him or what about you made it so that you would pick somebody like this or something like that.
J.R.: When you take that away from it, obviously listen, we all have work to do in ourselves. We’re a work in progress. We should always be growing. But you take that piece out of it that isn’t even true and it’s like, well why, why shouldn’t I be ready for a relationship?
I was ready 10 years ago when I met this abuser and I wanted a relationship. I wanted love and respect and a partnership. Now I have children and I’m doing everything I should have been doing with my partner. Like of course I am ready.
I’m, I’m ready. I do think it’s important to like educate yourself and like be aware of things that maybe you weren’t before and so you can avoid and you can recognize red flags and all of that. Like all of that is very important.
Right. I will say my current husband did have a porn addiction, which I didn’t know about when we got married. When I found that out, I, it was devastating. I thought, here we go again. I cannot believe that I’m doing this again.
Understanding The Difference Between Genuine Repentance and Continued Abuse
I’ve listened to you in the past and I really appreciate this. Where like you don’t really give your stamp of approval on like men who may seem to be doing the work, but like only time will tell sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
I’m a hundred percent there too. I’ll share what my experience has been so far. But this is not me saying like, well everything’s good now everything’s fixed.
I’ve been able to see now how an abusive, narcissistic, toxic person who does not want to change and who never actually deals with the addiction. How that he handles it versus how someone who is genuinely repentant, he understands it as abuse, as emotional abuse.
He can see that what he’s been doing to me is just through the gaslighting and the lying. It’s manipulating, it’s how all of that is psychological and emotional abuse and he’s getting help. He’s in recovery. He’s in really good recovery right now.
I try not to be in that sphere of talking about all the recovery stuff on his end, but obviously it infiltrates my life because of him personally. I probably will never use the word like recovered but always recovering.
The Impact Of Recovery & The Challenges Of Pornography
I do think he’s in really good recovery right now. I already thought we had a really great relationship. It was so much more loving and compassionate and it was so much more of a partnership than I ever had before. I didn’t even know it could get better, but it has gotten exponentially better now that he is sober and in recovery.
I’m in a good head space today, you know, so I can talk about it really in a clear way, but it’s hard. Like I’m not going to lie, it hurts to try again and then for that to happen again. It does give me hope that like, okay, it’s not that all men are like my ex.
Anne: Right?
J.R.: This man might have one piece of that puzzle, a similarity that is very painful for me. But that doesn’t mean he is that person for me.
Anne: The other issue is many people, men and women have used porn. If they’re lying, if they’re hiding it, if they’re using it, like if they don’t stop using it, anytime someone uses porn, even if it’s just once it’s an abuse episode, they’re abusing themselves.
They’re abusing the people around them trust, they’re abusing the person in the porn. They’re supplying demand for sex trafficking, right? So porn is, there’s nothing good about it and it is an abuse issue. There’s also a character issue at play.
The Impact Of Hidden Behaviors & Abuse
When people make decisions over and over, they’re, that’s what determines their character. I would not say never, ever date or never ever marry someone who has used porn. I would never say that. What I would say is it is abuse. It’s always gonna be abuse.
There’s no part of it that if someone is involved with it, where they’re going to be like not abusive when they’re using it. The hiding or manipulation. If you do not want abuse in your life, you do not want someone who has these characteristics lying, cheating, manipulating. That’s what we need to look out for.
The reason I don’t date is mostly because I have no desire to like nurse someone back to health.
J.R.: Yes, a hundred percent it is. It’s not easy and it’s not fun. We’ve had lots of conversations because I felt like he robbed me of the chance to make a different decision. If I knew this I wouldn’t have married him. Maybe eventually we would’ve been together, I don’t know. But I definitely wouldn’t have married him.
Anne: That in and of itself was abusive
J.R.: A hundred percent, yes.
Conversations On Deception & Emotional Abuse
Anne: You weren’t able to do this mutually because you did not have the right information. Men don’t recognize that that in and of itself is abuse is crazy to me. Like really you’re literally coercing and scamming someone into marrying you.
J.R.: He knew all about my history with it. We had so many conversations in the very, our very early days of dating of like I have texts that I’ve gone back to and like screenshotted of like me asking him once in a while just being like, Hey, is this an issue? Is this a current issue?
Please just tell me. I just need to know I, I just need the truth kind of thing. Over and over again lying and you know, I kind of feel, I kind of feel stupid but at the same time how was I supposed to know? Like I thought he was, I was telling me the truth.
It’s weird because in my first marriage it was so obvious to me that something was wrong. Something was off because he would never admit when I would confront him, I couldn’t explain what it was.
In this relationship really everything felt really good. I felt loved, I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt really good. I didn’t even question really that he was telling the truth. I’ll be honest, I don’t even know which one is harder because in a way my abusive ex with that experience I kind of saw it coming.
Navigating Trust
You know, when it all came out it was like, oh this actually helps me make sense of everything because I already felt like everything was off. Finding out the truth helped me make sense in my current marriage, my current relationship, it confused things more for me.
I was like wait a second, how did you find out? I’ve always had a pretty strong intuition. I feel like I started to really gain that back.
Even though I say like everything is really great between us because of everything that I know about pornography addiction. I unfortunately had to learn a lot about it and it became such a big part of my life.
If he told me it was a part of his past, I was like, okay, but you didn’t do anything different. How is it not still a problem? You’re wanting me to believe that this was an issue. Then tell me what changed. Tell me how it became a non-issue.
Like you don’t just stop. Unfortunately that didn’t come until into our marriage. We would have conversations and then and some of the things we’d be talking about our past. Getting to know each other and some of the things that he would say, it just wouldn’t make sense.
Confronting Addiction & Seeking Support
I remember that feeling , no, no, no, no I’m not crazy. If I feel like something feels off then it probably is. I pushed and pushed. Honestly it was a brutal three days. The first night we talked about it and I basically just told him I was pushing and pushing and I said, look like I’m not taking no for an answer anymore.
I know this is a problem now it’s just a matter of you telling me the whole truth and not withholding anymore. It wasn’t even because I did not find anything on a device. It was just really, it was understanding the addiction. If you were addicted to this as a child and you spent all this time in this addiction, you didn’t just stop. I know you didn’t just stop.
The first night we were talking about it, it was a partial disclosure. The next day I guess nothing like new came out. Then the day after that it was everything. Since then I got like some of my very close friends involved who have walked with me through everything actually they’re the friends who were there when I asked my ex for a divorce.
They’re very close with me and I’ve got them involved and it’s actually the husband of that relationship who is, he’s is close with my husband. Basically he’s doing the, I don’t know how you feel or if you promote the accountability software.
Accountability & Support In Marriage: A Personal Reflection
Anne: All. I don’t necessarily because of my abuse stance you can talk about it.
J.R.: He’s the accountability partner for my husband on the software that we have on his devices. Basically that was like, this man is not messing around. Like he will call me the second he sees something. It’s not gonna be like, oh it’s his buddy.
They’re just gonna have a little chat through text and I’m never actually gonna know. My husband knows that. He loves you more than me. He’s not looking out for me, he’s not protecting me like he’s protecting you. That’s what I was missing too through my first marriage.
I didn’t have anyone really looking out for me and like advocating for me. There were people who were more concerned about keeping a marriage together than actually protecting victims. I mean there’s a lot of things that are different this time around.
I mean he’s actually following through with the boundaries and the needs that I’ve laid out for what I need to feel safe in our relationship. He is a hundred percent like not only doing them but doing them joyfully. He didn’t want to loose his family.
The Struggles Of Vulnerability & Exploitation
Which is not even his blood family. Whereas with my ex when we separated he flew across the country without letting me know he just abandoned us. There’s a lot of big differences but I’m not gonna say it’s easy. To anybody who would be listening, if I could go back, I probably would’ve stayed single a little bit longer.
Anne: That’s the other part of your story that’s really tough. He really exploited you and the situation when you were really vulnerable. You were praying I’ve, I’ve said that prayer , right when my ex got arrested I’ve said the prayer of like, I can’t do this alone.
I need help. I need help now. No one came but I think God was listening to my prayer and I got help in different ways. I didn’t get help in the form of a partner. But had somebody shown up and been really nice and and exploited that situation. I think about where you were at that time.
This is not to scare you, but story sounds a lot actually. Like my story, my ex was, I thought well it was wonderful. I thought he was in recovery. We, we actually did pornography, addiction recovery. Like we were the poster children, we would speak and I thought he was doing great.
Recognizing Subtle Forms Of Abuse & The Importance Of Awareness
I felt so connected to him. It was hard but I thought it was good. I remember talking to a friend of mine and she said, is this abuse? And she was like, no, your husband’s amazing. I had an abusive husband, he wasn’t anything like this. I thought yeah that’s true. You know like he would absolutely have encouraged me to come and share today my story.
When I hear stories like this, it sounds just like I sounded when I didn’t know what was really happening. Which is why I wanna warn everyone because I’ve gone through the internet and like taken all of our interviews down where I sounded like you sound now that’s not to say that’s not your experience.
I do believe people can change, I really genuinely do. I was hoping that was happening for me. And in my case the pornography addiction world just enabled his abuse and actually made him worse because he got better at manipulative kindness.
He got better at using therapy speak and then also better at hiding the abuse that was like in plain sight. If you knew what you were looking for. These types of stories make me a little nervous but also hopeful. I really hope that it works out. The only red flag that I can hear in your voice, sorry you didn’t ask for it.
J.R.: No, go. Go for it. I’m here.
Facing Hard Truths
Anne: Is the, I wouldn’t, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have married him. Part of me wonders in that scenario, like let’s say I did it again if I could pull it off. Because back then I was not capable of doing this. But to say something like, oh okay, no problem.
Now that I know what’s going on, let’s get divorced because I wouldn’t have married you otherwise. Let’s just get divorced and then let’s date and let’s see if we get married. Now that I know the truth, part of me just thinks like knowing that in my heart and in my head was such a hard thing to know. Had I known this I wouldn’t have married.
I asked him all about his pornography stuff before we got married and he lied to me. It’s a hard thing to live with, which I’m sure that’s what you’re experiencing now.
I want it to be genuinely healthy. I’m holding it with open hands, you know, right now it seems as though it’s, it’s good, you know. I’m but I’m definitely not going to ignore the red flags moving forward.
Anne: Right. Well also that you would not be in this relationship had you not been coerced.
Overcoming Challenges
J.R.: It’s a hard truth. Me feeling the heaviness of that on pretty much a day to day, even if it’s a great day, even if it’s wonderful.
Anne: Yeah, it’s hard. J.R. neither of us expected this interview to go here, right?
J.R.: Right.
We’re will get to the part where we hear the story about how she did end up divorcing and what happened through that divorce. Women are so afraid to sort of get to the edge and kind of look over it because they, they don’t know what’s there. For those of us who have done it we’re like, it’s okay. You know, it’s not a cliff, it’s just a slope and you’re will survive. Sharing your story of survival I think will help so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today.
J.R.: Yeah, thanks Anne.
Is My Husband Holding Me Back? – Sarah’s Story
Jun 11, 2024
Many women married to emotionally abusive men wonder, “Is my husband holding me back?” Understanding the signs that your husband may be sabotaging your personal progress is crucial in taking steps toward a healthier, more empowered life.
Sarah, a member of the BTR Community used the The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop to make progress. In this episode Anne talks to Sarah about overcoming the ways her husband held her back to reach her goals.
Using Meditation To Overcome What’s Holding You Back
Anne: Sarah recently enrolled in The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop and she’s been doing one meditation per week. What meditation are you on now?
Sarah: I just finished the I AM LOVED Meditation.
Writing Can Help Make Us Make Progress
Anne: I wrote these meditations because at a certain point, talking was not helping me as much as meditation or yoga because I talk all the time. I never am not talking about it. If I hit a healing roadblock talking, it wasn’t actually getting the trauma out of my body or helping me that much.
I started doing meditations on YouTube and several different other places. They were never specific to this situation, they weren’t gender specific. They weren’t exactly what I wanted, and so I wrote them. How everything has gone with BTR, it’s been, why not create the thing that doesn’t exist that I need.
Sarah: I’ve loved them. I have absolutely loved them, I love that you can do them multiple times. They only take about a half hour. I love that they are specific to me. I feel like I’ve done a lot more healing with the meditations than I have in years of therapy or groups because it’s more individualized.
It’s specific to me, and it’s what I think my pain is, and it allows me to get rid of that and be more open to the future and healing the wounds. I’ve really loved them.
Sarah: Very much an introvert, very much. I need to clarify, I didn’t do Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions with BTR. I did it with another organization. If I could go back in time, I would’ve just done BTR from the get go. I think I would’ve just sped up my recovery a lot faster and I would’ve gotten to safety a lot faster if I had done BTR.
Totally. BTR Group Sessions are awesome. It’s safety oriented, it’s the right group to go to if you want group support. It’s also really good to hear other women share their experiences.
There are some women who love BTR Group Sessions and they want to do it in perpetuity, and I think that’s awesome. For me, there was a certain point where talking wasn’t going to help me anymore.
My Husband’s Betrayal Is Holding Me Back
Do you feel like you were kind of in that boat where when you’re thinking I still need to heal after betrayal and this seems like a better choice for me than therapy. Can you talk about how you thought about the difference between meditation and maybe another option?
Sarah (03:35): With group, I think it was good. I was just drowning, I had no idea what I was doing, so I needed tools to figure out how to survive, how to do life, and how to move forward.
Now that I’ve had some time, it’s been five years since my divorce and I have a lot more safety now, thanks to you. I mean, I still feel like I have a little bit of a wounded heart. It was a lot of pain and it’s a lot to go through and when you’re in the thick of it, my husbands betrayal was holding me back. For me personally, I was just ignoring the pain because I just have to survive.
Now that I’m safe, I can address the pain and everything like that, but it’s a lot to go through. Before I found BTR, I was doing other therapy and groups that weren’t as helpful.
Stopping My Ex-Husband From Holding Me Back
(04:31): Once I found BTR, it streamlined my healing and it went a lot faster with the meditations. I saw it and I was like, oh, I got to do this, I got to try it. Once I did the first one and I was just bawling because I just felt so seen by my maker as a whole person. I just felt like I’m valuable.
Even after all this bad stuff has happened, I’m worth it. It’s been really healing. You can wade through the family dysfunction and generational dysfunction and identify for me personally, what I want to do for the future. I want to help my children and to help stop carrying on all of this weight and heaviness and pain.
Anne (05:24): You’ve listened to my podcast for years and you’re very familiar with my voice.
Sarah (05:29): Yes.
Anne (05:30): I’m just thinking I’ve never asked this question before. After listening to my podcast for so long and hearing my voice so much, was it a natural extension to have me also be doing the meditation or was that weird?
Sarah (05:43): No, I think it was great because I already felt like I knew you so well. You’re like an old friend. An old friend is just walking me through this path releasing me from my husband holding me back. It was great. I loved it, I found it more comforting rather than some stranger. I know your voice.
Anne (05:59): Can we talk a little bit about your story? It’s been five years since your divorce, before you knew that your husband was using porn and having affairs and lying and stuff. What did you think was going on back then?
Betrayed: My Husband’s Addiction Was Holding Me Back From Peace
Sarah (06:13): Knew there was porn. I just didn’t know the extent of it. He kept that hidden really, really well. I thought, he must be in it again and that’s his thing. I’m going to do my life and we’ll just carry on.
Then things progressively got worse and worse and worse. There were several instances where I knew something more was happening, so I actually prayed. I prayed, Heavenly Father, I know something is happening. I just don’t know for sure. Help me find out.
That’s when I found out lots of bad things. He had a whole other email account and was meeting up with other women. I found out 2016, I stayed with him for almost a year and a half because he said he wanted to change. Then he just couldn’t be honest. He was truly holding me back from having peace.
(07:07): During that time, he started programs and I started therapy. We even did a couple of marriage therapy things, which was pointless, so unhelpful. I just kept finding things. He was not willing to be honest. We separated in April and I spent the night at a good friend’s house and she helped me find BTR.
She held my hand through the whole thing. Honestly, BTR has been my lifeline again. It’s the fastest healing, fastest way to safety also dealing with him after divorce because we have children together. I did The BTR Message Workshop and was a night and day difference. It reduced my stress, reduced my anxiety.
Everything is much smoother now because I know how to communicate, but still stand my ground and still get what I need.
My Ex-Husband Is Still Holding Me Back After Divorce
Anne (08:03): The Living Free Workshop and The Meditation Workshop make it very clear that communication is a trap. All the things you’ve been told by the therapist or clergy or other people that you need to improve your communication in order to work things out is just not the case.
It seems ironic, you can throw all that therapy and all this stuff out the window. Communication’s not going to solve it. There are some communication strategies that will help you, but they’re still not solution based in terms of thinking that he’s going to be able to work with you.
Am I making sense? It’s like recognizing, communication isn’t going to help. Then if communication is not going to help, then what do? I do if I have to message back and I know communication isn’t the thing to do, then what?
You can’t just write back nonsense words! If you share kids, you have to communicate. It’s an interesting irony that I’m both saying. Communication isn’t going to solve anything, and also there are these specific communication strategies that will improve things simultaneously.
Sarah (09:11): I guess it’s learning what communication strategies actually work.
Anne (09:22): Because it’s strategic. You’ve learned to be more strategic?
Sarah (09:28): Yes. He has definitely played a game for years and years and years and was really good at it. I’m in that same game, so I have to learn the rules. If I want to make a move to go a certain direction, I have to play the game.
Strategic Communication Can Help You Move Forward
Anne (09:45): It’s kind of like render into Caesar, what a Caesar’s or don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with an adversary quickly. Turn the other cheek kind of things, and that’s where I got those strategies from studying that.
What does this actually mean? Christ was saying that in relation to your enemy, so how does this actually deescalate the situation and help you be safe?
Sarah (10:14): Yes, yes. It’s strategic.
Anne (10:16): You can see what they’re doing and then you have specific tools to be able to be on his level. Because otherwise when we’re just straight up with them, they just weaponize everything against us.
Sarah (10:32): For me, I think the biggest thing that I learned from the message workshop is to identify what he’s actually doing. Previously I was getting a whirlwind of messages and I never know what’s happening. But now I know what it’s, and it’s easier for me to deal with it. Strategically.
Self-Discovery As A Path Forward
Anne (10:56): Knowing you a little bit, I know that you’re extremely logical. I’m going to describe you as stoic. Tell me if I’m wrong. I can imagine that if you’re in therapy or something and they say, how do you feel? You would be like, well, it’s difficult.
Sarah (11:12): Yes.
Anne (11:12): Yes. Not that you haven’t cried, I’m sure you’ve cried, but you have more of a practical approach to life and your emotions. Regarding The Meditation Workshop, has that been a different way to access parts of yourself that you haven’t been able to access in a different way?
Sarah (11:37): Yes, I’m just right. That one for me was especially healing because you imagine your 6-year-old self and what she’s going through. The pure joy and pure love of a 6-year-old and accessing that 6-year-old and holding her, and that to me was really healing.
The very first one, I am resolute. That’s the one that was the most healing for me. I don’t even know if I have the words for it. I was bawling. It was just so healing to be heard and seen. I don’t know how else to describe it.
Anne (12:26): I think one of the reasons the first one sticks with people isn’t necessarily that it’s better than the other ones. It’s the first time that anyone does it. The meditations are set up so that the beginning goes through the same process every time for all 13 of them.
He Was Holding Me Back: Expressing The Emotional Impact Of Betrayal
Then there’s a visualization that is topic specific. I did that at the beginning of every single one. The words are a little bit different, processing something else. Even though you’re going through the same process, it’s getting to the heart of that topic or that characteristic that you want to feel.
You want to feel resolute or you want to feel protected. It’s a powerful experience of things actually leaving your body that you didn’t know were stuck inside of you.
Then when you do it again the second time, you get another layer of pain out. I don’t know if it’s ever as intense as the first time because it’s just so different from anything else you’ve experienced. What are your thoughts on that?
Sarah (13:38): I do like that they follow the same format because I know what to expect. The workbook was helpful to identify certain areas of my body that I was feeling certain things. Then refer back to the workbook after the meditation is almost finished.
Sometimes Repetition Helps Heal
That’s helpful to see, I might need to do this one again. Or, I’m feeling good on this one. At first, I didn’t know they all followed the same format, I was like, okay, Anne, what you doing now? That they all follow the format. There’s a purpose in it, and now I understand the purpose of it.
Anne (14:15): My thought was to get all the negative emotions out in the beginning. Get them all out and then fill you up with the positive thing that you wanted to become. Getting rid of the fear, getting rid of the trauma, getting rid of the insecurities, and also just the scripting from society. The places that says that you’re not good enough or that you’re not loved.
Then the second part, which is that topic specific visualization is about that thing. It’s about the truth that you’re going for or to feel protection or to feel like you are just right. I like the just right one. At first I was going to do I am enough, but my problem has never been feeling like I wasn’t enough.
My problem has been that I am too much. Instead of being like, you’re not good enough. It was always like, you are too much, calm down. There’s an element of you’re not good enough in that being too much.
Finding A Healing Structure That Works
That’s why I wanted to be just right in between being too much and not enough is just right. No matter what you’re like, you’re already just right. You are the person that you were supposed to be. It feels like that with your 6-year-old self because she’s so cute. She’s so messy and energetic and, adorable.
Anne (15:42): Yeah, I mean, she’s a little bit too much and she’s a little bit not enough at the same time, and it makes her just right. She’s just delightful. The voiceover was actually done by my daughter, which if you hear it, you’ll hear her. She was very excited to be a part of it.
Sarah (16:08): I like the format because I really do feel like you get rid of the pain. You get rid of the trauma, and then you build me up so much and I can go conquer the world.
Anne (16:20): You’ve been able to do some amazing things, things you never thought that you’d be able to do. You remodeled your kitchen, that is huge. You broke down a wall. You’ve done just some incredible things in terms of BTR empowering you to do things that you never thought you’d be able to do.
Meditation Can Help Me Move Forward When He’s Been Holding Me Back
Can you talk about how BTR and either the podcast or the meditation helped you accomplish some things that you never thought possible?
Sarah (16:53): Honestly, it comes down to being married for 13 years to an abusive man. It was always, oh, we got to do what’s best for the family and whatever. My desires or needs were always put underneath everyone else’s, mostly his. He was always holding me back.
Then I got divorced and listened to the podcast I realized I can do whatever I want. It doesn’t matter what that is. It’s whatever I want to do. That’s what I’m going to do. I think I always had the desire. I just didn’t know how to do the things I wanted to do.
Anne (17:25): Do you think also you had that scripting in your head that you couldn’t?
Sarah (17:29): For sure. I had wanted to remodel my kitchen for years and years when I was married. But we never had the money. Well, guess what, even after a divorce, I really didn’t have the money either, but I figured out how to get the money.
Achieving Personal Goals To Overcome What’s Been Holding Me Back
Whereas if I was still married to him, I guarantee it would’ve been shut down. No, we don’t have the money for this. It’s never going to happen. It was definitely a script, a cultural script, spiritual script, I have to listen to him and do what he wants.
BTR definitely helped me realize my desires and my wants, and then I just had to figure out how to do it. I have on my wall, my miracle board, I have pictures on there that I want to achieve.I have switched them out because I have actually done them.
I’ve gone to Hawaii, I’ve gone to Disneyland, I’ve redone my kitchen. I am currently redoing my yard. These are things that I wanted to do for so long and I just didn’t know how to do them. First, realizing that I can do them, I just have to figure out how to do it. I can do it if I want. I just have to figure it out. That was the biggest hurdle for me.
Anne (18:44): I want to let people know. You’re not like Miss Moneybags or anything. You’re a high school teacher.
Sarah (18:50): I do not have thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars rolling in every month. It does not happen.
Taking Initiative To Make Progress
Anne (18:58): One of the things that impressed me is your belief in yourself that you could do it because there were parts of that kitchen remodel that you did yourself.
Sarah (19:07): It was Father’s Day, and I didn’t have my kids, and I was like, I hate this wood paneling. I hate it, I just channeled Anne. I was like, what would Anne do? I’m like, change it. So I ripped it off. I ripped all the paneling off in one day downstairs in the basement, and then I had the studs showing and I’m like, oh, no, I’ve just created this huge mess.
What am I going to do? I called my brother-in-Law who has done drywall, and he came with his brother and they knocked it out in two days. Obviously I didn’t pay as much if I had some contractor come in and do it.
Okay, what else do I not like? I don’t like my kitchen. I’m going to redo that. I had to refinance some stuff to get the money to do that. I’m so glad I did because it was done. Then I had breast cancer, and I want to show my daughters that if you want something, you figure out a way to do it.
The Joy Of Achieving: How Confidence Aids Healing
Anne (20:15): I was telling somebody the other day, I get what I want in general. I mean, sometimes I don’t clearly, but it’s easy for me to obey the commandments or to do the right thing, so to speak. Because I want to do it. There’s this instance where the thing I really wanted to do was the wrong thing, and that hasn’t happened to me in a really long time.
I went over to this couple who mentored me in my neighborhood, and I was like, I know this is the wrong thing, but I still really want to do it. I hadn’t done just saying it out loud and getting their help, and they prayed with me. It was so helpful being able to be like, okay, I really don’t want to do that thing. That would not be good for me.
Just voicing it so that I could have God remove it from my heart was nice, but just in general, it’s nice to know that the things that we want are good. Why can’t we do it? Going to Disneyland is not a bad thing. It’s awesome. Why would someone not want to go or fix your yard or your kitchen? How does it feel to be in your house now?
Sarah (21:16): I love it. I didn’t love it before. It’s a great house. It’s a great neighborhood. I’ve definitely made it my own. Nothing’s exactly perfect, but it’s so much better. I’m a big baker. I love to bake and I can knock a lot of stuff out of my kitchen really easily.
Gaining Energy & Momentum To Heal
Do you want to know what I’ve made in the last 24 hours? I’ve made a lot, I’ve made sourdough bread. I’ve made an almond cake. I made lemon bars. I made lemon blueberry scones.
My neighbors love me because there’s no way I can eat all of that. I love my kitchen. I have a huge island now and I can work and I have a double oven. It’s what I need now. I don’t know if it’s necessarily, I need, but it’s so much easier than my previous kitchen.
My previous kitchen was from the 1960s and I’d clean it and it still looked dirty. What’s the point of cleaning if it’s still dirty now I clean it and you can see a difference, and so I keep a clean kitchen more because I can see the difference.
Anne (22:18): You feel like with these miracles or cleaning out the trauma from inside of you, I was able to accomplish my goal. I was able to get what I wanted. It feels really good, and it kind of compounds. Then you just believe in yourself more and more, and you just have more and more confidence.
Sarah (22:39): You definitely have more confidence because you’ve done it. You already know you’ve done it. I feel like it’s the Harry Potter moment when he conjured the patronus. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Conquering What’s Holding Me Back – The Power Of Healing In Achieving Goals
Sarah (22:50): I already did it, so I knew I could do it. I knew it was me, so I just did it. So that’s how I felt. I can do things. It’s also healing. The trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do. When you’re just in the drudges of everything. If you don’t heal after betrayal, if you don’t take the time to address it.
Sarah: Healing the trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do.
Anne: Well, and I think that’s the thing that so many women describe, especially before they know what’s going on, is they describe feeling stuck in a healthy relationship. I don’t really know because I’ve never been married to a healthy man, but I assume it’s that you have these goals and that you progress toward them and you’re able to accomplish them and it feels good.
Together in this partnership, you’re making progress throughout your life and you’ve got ups and downs, but together you’re on the same path. When you’re with a pornography user, someone who’s emotionally and psychologically abusing you, you’re a victim of sexual coercion. You feel stuck all the time.
Emotional Abusers Holding Victims Back
You can’t make the progress that you wanted to. I know that you bought that house with your ex and then you got it in the divorce. Even with that house, there was stuff that you wanted to do and you couldn’t figure out how to do it. It kind of just feels like they’re this big anchor that’s chained to us and we’re just getting dragged backward instead of being able to progress forward.
It’s not a partnership. It’s sort of a counter-ship where you’re making progress and they’re kind of holding me back.
Sarah : Yeah, because everything’s about them. It’s not about us, it’s not about our relationship and our goals. It’s his goals, his desires, his wants, so there is no progression really for me. He’s constantly holding me back.
Anne: They’re not going to care that much about whether or not the kitchen’s clean if they’re just looking at porn all the time. If they’re never home to be in the kitchen. Have you noticed since starting the meditations that things have changed? Were surprised because the meditations are a relatively low amount of effort.
The Surprises Of Starting Meditations
You just listen and then go about your day. Have you noticed any changes that have surprised you? Like things in real life that you did differently that you were not expecting?
Sarah: My thought process is different. I’m more gentle with myself. The thing that’s coming up in my mind is the just right meditation with the 6-year-old. I’s okay if I made a mistake, that’s okay. I got to it, but guess what? That’s okay. I got to figure out how to fix it and then not do it again rather than beating myself up.
I should have done better. Changing my thought process of it’s okay, it’s all right. I can make mistakes. I’m going to do this differently next time so that I don’t make the same mistake. I don’t get as hard on myself as I used to. There’s still things that I want to change about my life as everyone does. It’s more of a gradual progression rather than a steep incline.
Anne: It’s also seems to be more gentle process when you hear someone say, don’t think bad thoughts about yourself, and then you’re like, okay, I’m not going to, and then you think something and then you’re like, I’m thinking that again. Oh, stop thinking that.
It’s not necessarily violent, but it’s like you’re confronting yourself this way. You just naturally change your thoughts in sort of a gentle way, and even if you had a thought like, oh, I’m so dumb.
What’s Really Holding Me Back? Changing Thought Processes
Then you think, oh, sweetie, you’re so cute. Instead of being like, oh, I wasn’t supposed to tell myself I was dumb. I’m so dumb for calling myself dumb.
Then you go through that process. The other thing that I tried to purposefully build into that specific meditation was just mistakes. She knocks something over and makes a mess. Mistakes that we make that we’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that again. I’m going to make a different choice.
Then there’s also just mistakes that you can’t avoid. There’s just stuff that happens that nothing that you did could have avoided it. I think there’s this feeling that I need to learn all of these things so that I can avoid doing this in the future. I hope the meditation helps people feel like there’s also stuff that is going to happen and it’s okay, and I couldn’t avoid it, and that’s fine too.
Sarah: I definitely agree. Sometimes life happens and you can’t really avoid it. You give the strength to to keep moving forward
Anne: And being gentle with yourself as you’re like, ah, that happens. Today I got a full glass of milk and for some reason I set it on the floor. I don’t know why I did this, and then I stood up because I was on the couch, which I could have just put it on the table next to the couch. That would’ve been a good idea, but no, I didn’t I stuck it on the floor and I stood up and of course knocked the whole thing over.
My Abusers Lack Of Grace for Mistakes Is Holding Me Back
I think the hard thing about that is there’s no grace for mistakes. With an abuser, you accidentally forget to deposit the check on time and a bill bounces or something. Instead of being like, oh, it’s okay, you intended to deposit it, how can I help?
I remember I did that once and I’m actually really good with finances and stuff. I’m very responsible, and that happened this one time and he was so angry. Then said things like, do I need to take over now? So now I have to do everything?
It was just a mistake. I forgot to deposit the check and I thought I had, this isn’t something that I do every day, the way they talk and stuff, there’s just no grace.
Sarah: My abuser wouldn’t give me a lot of grace, but it required a lot of grace on his part. He’d asked for a lot of grace. It’s ironic,
Anne: And we give it,
Sarah: Yeah, totally give you a lots of chances,
Anne: But not so much to ourselves. No.
Anne: You enrolled in the BTR Meditation Workshop, what did you think before you used the workbook? Were you kind of like, wait a minute, I’m supposed to fill something out during a meditation? Did you think it was a little bit weird or were you like, cool, I’m all for it? Can you talk about your thought process with the workbook?
Expressing Trauma On Paper
Sarah: The workbook is really helpful because it gets things out of your head and onto paper and you have to see what is really there, what is the pain or what is the trauma saying? What are the words that need to come out, and sometimes they’re vile, they’re evil.
I’ve had an array of responses and it’s interesting for me to see it on paper like, oh, I really have harbored a lot of pain. Getting it out on paper gives it a voice and it’s easier to get rid of once you see it on paper. I am a big journal writer. Even when I first found out everything that he did, I was like, I got to get this out of my head.
Otherwise I’m going to go crazy. and so I wrote in my journal a lot. For me, it’s very helpful to have things on paper. It gets out of my head and I can see it. That’s holding me back. It’s a coping mechanism. I think the workbook is really helpful, seeing where it is in my body and what it’s saying, what it looks like.
Anne: Has it been hard for you to just go with whatever came in your mind?
Sarah: At first, it was. At first I was like, okay, this is weird
Anne: For people, if they’ve never done the meditation before, do you have any tips for how to just sort of let go
Sarah: Do it a couple of times, do the same meditation a couple of times. Don’t be judgmental. Just let it happen. Don’t overthink it. Just let it come out the pen or the pencil.
Visualizing Physical Representations Of Feelings To Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back
Anne : I encourage people literally, whatever you think, put it in there. It could be the craziest thing, like a giant hourglass full of marbles that is sitting in your living room. Whatever you think of, just go with it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. Just do it over again in a minute. There’s no wrong answers. What’s the weirdest thing that it looked like? Like a blob or a color.
Sarah: Green, slimy, sticky gooey blob, and I don’t know if that’s the weirdest, “That’s holding me back?”
Anne: Is that the most common thing for you or is that just one time?
Sarah: I have had some sharp shards of glass, but mostly it’s sticky, goopy, slimy
Anne: Stuff. Mine’s usually black goop like tar. One time I had this chunk of cement come out that was the exact replica of the shape and size of my body. I was floating in the air and it just fell out, hit the ground, and when it hit, it shattered into a bunch of pieces.
The light came and just cleaned it up. That was weird. It was like my entire body was full of cement, that’s holding me back. I think that’s super interesting.
Also, when I do the light part, I go into this mode where I picture sort of a subatomic physics sort of idea. Where all of my atoms separate from each other and there’s space in between all of my atoms, and then I kind of picture them shaking or vibrating. Then they open up a little bit and anything unhealthy just comes out of them and gets pulled in, and I always love that part.
Health Benefits Of Meditation & Emotional Release
I feel so much better afterwards. I just feel like it healed my body too. How do you feel about the meditations in relation to your health?
Sarah: I wish you had done this years ago. I feel lighter. I’ve read,The Body Keeps the Score, and you can’t separate areas of your life. You are a whole person and everything blends into every other part of your life. It makes sense.
If you’re in a relationship that’s abusive, it tears down your body physically. It just does. You can’t separate the stress from different areas. The trauma keeps holding me back. It just doesn’t work. Releasing the trauma and the pain and the memories has been helpful. I feel better physically than I did years ago.
Anne: When you get to, I am healing the healing meditation that has a whole section about physical healing, healing your physical ailments. I’m thinking, “What’s holding me back?” You’re in this sort of mausoleum kind of place and this lady comes and you lay down on this stone that can heal your body.
You’re a woman of faith, you’re a Christian. For any women who are kind of nervous. That makes me nervous. It’s going to let something that I am not sure into my life. Can you talk about that you’re a Christian and how you felt about meditation in light of your faith?
Meditation & Christian Faith: Aligning Spiritual Practices
Sarah: I visualize it as accessing the atonement. That’s how I see it. For me, the meditations help me access the atonement better. I believe Christ can heal all things. The meditation is a visual way to see that atonement, to see Christ healing me.
Anne: In terms of your faith, has everything been safe for you? Has everything felt safe? Has there been anything that felt uncomfortable that didn’t really mesh with your values?
Sarah: Well, the meditations have aligned with my values, my religion. People say it’s prayer and meditation. They kind of go together, so it’s just a different way of doing meditation. To me, it’s more effective to do meditation rather than prayer. Now, I’m not saying prayers are bad for this specific situation.
I think these meditations are very helpful. There’s a purpose behind them, whereas my prayers are my wants and desires or gratitude or whatever my prayers are. They’re helpful as well. I’m not saying one or the other. I don’t feel uncomfortable doing the meditations even though I’m a religious person, that wasn’t holding me back.
Ensuring Meditation Aligns With Personal Values
Anne : I am too. I was hoping that Christians would, if they wanted to, envision that light as Christ. So many women have had spiritual abuse be a part of their story, and many women have decided that religion isn’t for them. Because they’ve had so much spiritual abuse.
I support a woman getting to safety however she needs to get to safety. I wanted it to be very just open to interpretation. And make sure that all of the visualizations aligned with, I would say general Christian principles or the general principles of being a good person.
So that everyone would feel comfortable. Hopefully there isn’t any part of it that makes someone feel uncomfortable.
I can’t anticipate everyone’s experience and everyone’s situation, but for the most part, I tried to try to make sure that it was vague enough and general enough. Then also alternatively specific enough, in the I Am Brave meditation, it is interesting because you actually confront the abuser.
Do you remember that one? Yes. In a safe place, and that one might make people a little bit nervous, but he’s contained so that you’re safe. How did you feel about that one?
Sarah: Wow. The things I wanted to say to him and to actually hear. I think there’s always things that we want to say and to actually be heard. We could say it all we want, but that’s not going to affect him at all. In this way it did. I felt validated for my feelings and for the way that he treated me. It was freeing.
Is He Still Holding Me Back? Visualizing Confronting Emotional Abuse Safely
Anne: He doesn’t change his behavior due to that, but he’s sort of forced to listen to you. For women who maybe nervous about meditation and don’t know if it’s for them what would you tell them?
Sarah: Give it a chance. What’s holding me back? Maybe if this is your first time doing a meditation, do the first one just a couple of times. Be curious rather than shut it down right away. I have actually told the women that I know that I’ve been in abusive situations about the meditation workshop and how helpful it has been for me.
I tell lots of women because this has helped my healing a lot, just give it a chance.
Anne: Which is awesome for you because there’s so not woo woo. Your room isn’t full of crystals and you’re not burning incense all over the place. You’re a high school teacher. Straightforward.
Sarah: I tell it like it is. Sometimes my bluntness gets people offended.
Anne: My mom, she is really cute. She was hesitant to try the meditations, she was like “What’s holding me back?” I’ll have to have her come on to talk about it. She took it and she was just crying the whole time, which is not like my mom at all. She called me and was like, oh my word. I didn’t know, it was so good. I was just crying and crying, and a lot of people have said that. It’s just like, let so much pain out, crying in a good way.
Has The Fear of Meditation Been Holding Me Back?
Sarah: It’s a healing crying. It’s not a distressed crying.
Anne: The fact that my mom liked it, she’s not woo-woo either. I hope that there’s something for everyone no matter what their personality is, no matter what their experience. t was everything that I wanted, and then I was just trying to be mindful of maybe what everyone else would like.
Anne: I think everything at BTR is because I needed it, I had to figure out, “What’s holding me back?” The Living free Workshop, it’s because I needed a strategy. I tried everything that everybody else said and it didn’t work. The Message Workshop, same thing there. No matter what I did, I could not figure out how to get myself out of his emotional and psychological abuse.
Even if you said it was abuse, there wasn’t anyone who was like, okay, now we know this. Living free is for women who don’t know what to do. It’s very practical. Let’s all let go of what’s holding me back.
Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back
It’s cool to have all of those resources that I wish I had, but everything was based on all of the obstacles that we face, legal obstacles, obstacles with clergy, just one right after another. It seems like they never end, but I feel like now I’ve written my book, which will be coming out soon. It’s like all of the stuff that I learned right now, I just want to apply it and talk about it all the time.
Now that it’s all built, because the good part is knowing that it works and seeing how it helps people.
Anne: I’m so glad. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for taking the time to talk today.
Sarah: There’s just such a need, so many of us. I think you’re going to help a lot of women. You’ve already helped me.
Sarah: Yeah, my pleasure. Just keep going. One foot in front of the other. You’re doing great work for all the other women out there. Keep going. Try the workshops. They are very helpful.
The Double Standards Confining Women In Fairy Tales
Jun 04, 2024
Fairy tales showcase the double standards confining women. Fairy tales often vilify women’s anger, undermine their pursuit of financial independence, and set unrealistic expectations.
These biases shift the focus from abusers to women, making them see themselves as the problem. Join Anne and Jane Gillmore as they continue their discussion about misogyny and fairy tales.
This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Jane Gilmore
Part Two: The Double Standards Confining Women In Fairy Tales (This Episode)
Vilification of Women’s Anger:
Society often labels women’s anger as overreacting, in stark contrast to men’s anger, which is seen as justified. This double standard shifts the focus from the abusers to the women, conditioning them to see themselves as the problem rather than addressing the root cause of their frustration, thus confining women.
Women are often condemned for seeking financial independence, a desire that is celebrated in men. This contradiction highlights the gender bias in societal expectations, undermining women’s right to financial security and autonomy.
Absurd Societal Expectations:
The expectation for women to set boundaries calmly is unrealistic and unfair. It parallels the absurdity of asking women to call the police without anger if they witness a crime, illustrating how these societal scripts demand unrealistic levels of composure from women, even in distressing situations, thereby confining women.
Confining Women- Misogyny in Cultural Narratives:
Stories like “Beauty and the Beast” perpetuate misogynistic tropes by suggesting that men need women to become better people. This harmful narrative places undue responsibility on women for men’s behavior and personal growth, reinforcing gender roles that confine women to supportive and transformative roles without considering their own needs for autonomy and respect.
Telling Women They Were Made For Service To Others
Anne (00:00): Last week, Jane and I wrapped up our talk discussing the Little Mermaid and how, in the Disney remake, they don’t rush into marriage right away. Instead, they use a black screen saying “a few years later” to imply they’ve been dating and getting to know each other.
My thought on this? They’re skipping the peaceful part because peace isn’t as entertaining as conflict. They don’t want to show a calm courtship where people genuinely connect, preferring to skip right past it. That’s where we’re picking up today.
Jane (00:46): Getting to know someone, building a relationship based on trust, respect, happiness, and support isn’t the story.
Anne (00:54): It’s boring. And you cover that with a “years later” black screen in two seconds.
Jane (01:01): Going through Disney’s catalog, one that is genuinely delightful is Encanto. I really liked that one. It was cute and real. The characters didn’t look like tiny, skinny, white stick figures. The women had diverse stories, reflecting that we’re not all the same.
I genuinely liked that one. But others, not so much, even Frozen, which is Disney’s nod to feminism, doesn’t quite hit the mark. Yes, it features two sisters not focused solely on men, but Ana turns out to be a Disney version of the manic pixie dream girl. She’s funny, clumsy, chatty, charming, and essentially there to ‘fix’ him. He starts off angry, violent, and mean.
Frozen’s Manic Pixie Dream Girl Doesn’t Overcome Misogynistic Foundation
Anne (02:07): Christophe starts out really violent and mean.
Jane (02:09): He’s angry with her, doesn’t like her, and treats her meanly.
Anne (02:14): Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. But it’s not excessively mean.
Jane (02:18): He’s not beastly mean, but he is mean to her. He doesn’t like, respect, or think she can do anything. He doesn’t share anything with her, just dismissive and rude. So no, he’s not the beast. Disney’s moved past that, but scratch the surface, and you find a man who doesn’t look at her, take her seriously, or think she’s anything but stupid and incapable. Thus confining women to a set of certain characteristics.
Yet, she tumbles along happily. And slowly, he becomes a better person because of her. That’s the manic pixie dream girl’s role, to fix men. Meanwhile, Elsa has a different story. She doesn’t focus on a man, which seems feminist because for the first time, a Disney princess doesn’t need marriage for a happy ending.
Her story revolves around her dangerous power. She learns to use her power for others, not for herself, because using it for her own dreams is cruel and wrong, making her wicked. Using it for others lets her live a life of service and become a hero.
Confining Women: How Discounting Women’s Anger Confines Women
Anne (03:41): This reminds me of the advice women often get about setting boundaries without anger. Men do terrible things, emotional and psychological abuse, and sexual coercion, confining women. In therapy, it’s,
“Yes, set boundaries because his behavior is unhealthy, but do you need to be so angry?”
We’re told to set boundaries with compassion. If someone is hijacking a car and you call the police, would anyone say, “Make sure you’re not angry when you call”? Thus confining women to only being pleasant even in an emergency.
Jane (04:43): Because it’s particularly women being angry with men. That is so reprehensible that women anger immediately means they’re crazy, oversensitive, or overreacting. When men get angry, they’re just reacting. But when women get angry, they’re seen as overreacting and unreasonable just by being angry.
This myth essentially tells women that when someone’s cruel to them, they’re the problem if they’re angry, traumatized, or show visible signs of trauma. It’s not about the abuse or the man who did it; it’s about them needing to fix themselves, and then maybe they can fix him.
These structural institutions are designed to make women believe that when they’re abused, they’re the problem. So they continue to submit to the abuse, telling themselves they just need to try harder, instead of getting rightfully angry and furious, thus confining women.
Societal Expectations Oppress Women
Anne (5:51): Abuse is one thing. Then there’s the overall societal system of oppression that supports these ideas, keeping women from being true equals to men, from being taken seriously, expressing valid views, taking up space, and not being exploited for domestic labor. Once again confining women to a set of certain actions.
Jane (6:21): Absolutely. For instance, the fairytale princesses reinforce the idea that women wanting money is avaricious, while it’s admirable for men. But wanting money is about security. Having my own money means I don’t need a man; I might choose one, but I also might not. This idea is threatening because it means women can be independent and make their own choices, challenging all the myths that perpetuate abuse.
Anne (07:21): Exactly, exploitation and oppression continue.
Jane (07:24): One way systemic issues work is by making women do all the unpaid or domestic labor. There’s no joy in it like white singing while she works, because domestic labor is so much fun, and I love it, making me a good woman that a handsome principal would want to marry.
Cinderella does what the evil stepsisters want, seeking a handsome prince because he’s wealthy. They’re after the jewels and beautiful dresses, which supposedly makes them evil. But Cinderella, by not wanting those things, proves she deserves them by actively not wanting them. That’s the setup for women.
Challenging The Notion That Women Are The Problem
Anne (08:05): It’s like when an abuser says, “Well, if you wouldn’t have said something, I would’ve done it.”
Jane (08:10): Yes, exactly.
Anne (08:11): And you’re like, “Well, you didn’t do it. So then I said something. What are you talking about? If I wouldn’t have said something, you would’ve done it, so it should be done. But now that I said it, you’re not going to do it. So what?” It’s this circular insanity.
Jane (08:24): Yep, yep. But if you point that out, you’re being oversensitive and hysterical. So, you just get stuck in this logic loop that you can’t escape from until you’re able to step back and look at the myths and say, well, this is the story you’re trying to tell me.
And that story is just rubbish. It’s like beauty standards. They’re completely impossible to meet, designed to be impossible. You’re too skinny or not skinny enough. Too white or not white enough, too busty or not busty enough, too pretty or not pretty enough, too submissive or not submissive enough. You’re trying too hard or you’re not trying hard enough.
The point is, those standards are impossible to meet so that it can always be your fault if something goes wrong. And those fairytale princesses are part of that myth, but they’re everywhere. And you said before, your kids, my kids used to do this too. “Oh, why do we have to talk about feminism again, mom? Can’t we just watch a movie?” And I get it, but these ideas are most dangerous when we don’t see them.
Recognizing Dangerous Ideas About Confining Women in Storytelling
Anne (09:33): I say it’s fine if you watch it, as long as we deconstruct it so you can start seeing this everywhere. But watching it without deconstructing it is dangerous, and I’m not going to allow that.
Jane (09:45): Absolutely. The most dangerous ideas are the ones we don’t realize we have. So, if they’re floating around in the back of your mind and you’re not able to look at them and see what they are and where they come from, that’s when people can use them against you.
And we all have them. I can’t remember if I said this the last time I was on with you, but I talk about this a lot because I’m such a feminist and I write about this and do this as my work, study, and play all the time. And still, when my kids were seven and nine,
My daughter had to say to me, “Hey, why is it my job to unload the dishwasher and my brother’s job to take the rubbish out?”
And I’m like, “Oh, darling, that’s the patriarchy.”
But I didn’t realize I was the one assigning the tasks and I didn’t see it. that. And if you don’t know what to look for, how can you fix it?
Playing The “What Would Make This Okay” Game
Anne (10:39): You’re a woman after my own heart because I do those same things where I want to rewrite or redo something. So, I just want to play this game for a second, if you don’t mind. I want everyone to buy this book. It’s incredible. It’s called Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children, so please get this book.
The game I want to play really quick is one I play with my kids, which is, what would make this appropriate? What would make this okay? And for Beauty and the Beast, my kids didn’t want to watch the new one. They hate the old one. And I said, “Let’s watch it.” I wanted to watch it with them. And of course, they’ve changed it.
(11:24): They didn’t, so we were all horrified. But then we played the game of what would’ve made it okay. She’s in the woods, her dad is sick and injured, and
He comes along saying, “Look, I know you think I’m scary, I have this castle here. We can take your dad there and hopefully get him better.”
She takes him there, it’s super nice, no problems. He looks scary but he’s fine, and lets her go. She comes back and he’s super nice. How hard can it be? And you know what changed him? It wasn’t her, but the spell. He was a jerk. The evil witch cast a spell on him to be a nice person. Take out the part where he’s confining women by by imprisoning her.
That’s when he realized, “Wait a minute, I’ve been a jerk. I need to be nice.”
Confining Women: The Gender Dynamics In Decision Making and Storytelling
It was that realization that changed him, which I know sounds like a woman changing him, but let’s overlook that. But really, how hard is it? Just think about it for two seconds. So the fact that producers aren’t aware of this blows my mind. It’s baffling why these issues still arise in mainstream movies from companies that should care but obviously don’t.
Jane (14:57): The issue might stem from the predominance of men in decision-making roles. It’s not that all these men are abusive or misogynistic, but there’s a common experience among women. When there’s a guy that just seems off, most women immediately understand when you mention it. But men?
They often don’t see it, making you feel silly for bringing it up. This lack of understanding can make it challenging for them to tell stories that resonate with these experiences. Most stories are told from a male perspective because most writers, showrunners, directors, and producers are men, thus confining women.
They simply don’t grasp what it’s like to feel threatened by someone just giving off bad vibes.
Going back to your game, I absolutely agree it would be a great game. What I’d like to see is not the Beast being the beast because an evil woman made him that way, but because he chose to be that way. What saves him is his own decision to change, without needing a woman to do it for him.
He shouldn’t rely on therapy as a manipulation tool but decide to be different on his own, without making the women in his life responsible for his improvement. Confining women to the role of saving men.
Anne (15:19): Or even the evil witch in Beauty and the Beast, she shouldn’t be responsible for casting a spell to make him a better person.
Jane (14:57): I could talk about this for hours. The evil witch myth in fairy tales often portrays women with power as the villains, whether it’s through wisdom, experience, magic, or beauty.
Anne (15:19): Or even money, like an evil stepmother, right? She has the money.
Jane (15:25): Yeah, and what makes her evil is age or power. Age is a form of power, although we don’t usually acknowledge that in women. But that’s what makes an evil witch: a woman with power. In reality, when they used to burn witches, tens of thousands of women were killed and tortured for being witches.
Any woman with knowledge or power could be accused of being a witch and killed for it. That was reality. In those stories, any powerful woman becomes responsible for what a man does. That’s wrong. So, in Beauty and the Beast, a good man is cursed by a powerful woman into being a bad man, and it’s his fault. Then Beauty comes along and saves him.
Anne (16:12): Wait, was he originally a good man who got turned into a bad man? Because in the Disney movie, she puts the spell on him for being terrible and not nice to her.
Jane (16:23): What’s interesting about Beauty and the Beast is the many versions of the story. Almost every culture has one, and the similarities are amazing. In some versions, he’s a good man cursed by an evil witch. In others, he’s not bad, just a typical, spoiled young man from a wealthy family, and then he’s turned into a violent, abusive man.
Unpacking The Evil Witch Trope In Fairy Tales
Anne (16:56): So, in the Disney version, when she needs help and he doesn’t help her, not knowing she’s an evil witch, it’s almost her fault he becomes so angry and bitter.
Jane (17:14): Because it’s always a woman’s fault when a man is angry and bitter. The number of women I’ve talked to about their abusive partners often say, “It’s not his fault. His mother was awful to him, or his ex did terrible things to him, and now he can’t trust a woman, except for me.” She’s got to prove she’s not like other girls.
Anne (17:39): That’s such a bad thing, that she’s not like other girls. Like what? That she has a voice and that she expects not to be exploited.
Jane (17:47): Or she’s not like the woman who turned him into this because she’s a good woman. She’s going to be nice to him, love him better, unlike the evil woman who made him this bitter, angry, misogynistic mess. This trope runs through so many stories, and it’s not just the Disney Princess stories.
When you start looking, all those romance movies, rom coms, and books from hundreds of years ago to tomorrow’s romance content, those tropes are woven into them. They’re sanitized now, so they’re not immediately recognizable, and you have to dig a bit deeper.
But underneath is always the same thing: a beautiful unselfish woman will save a hopeless or bad man from himself by being beautiful and unselfish, and then they get their happily ever after.
Jane Gilmore’s Plan To Interview Men Convicted of Rape
(18:47): I also want to mention “Happily Ever After” as a goal. What is that? What does “Happily Ever After” actually look like? Thinking about what makes me happy, I’m planning to do a doctorate this year. I’ll be talking to men convicted of rape about their perceptions of women, sex, and sexual violence.
There’s nothing happy about this topic, but achieving it and hopefully discovering something we can use to reach boys and men before they end up in prison for such crimes will give me a sense of achievement like nothing else. If “Happily Ever After” means just sitting back like some Stepford wife, pretending everything’s perfect, that’s not happiness.
Happiness is so much more, and women have so much more they can do and achieve. Sometimes, it can come from having a beautiful home and happy children, which can bring pride and happiness. There’s nothing wrong with that at all.
Of course, having a beautiful home and family can bring peace and happiness, but that’s not abuse. It’s not about doing it to serve someone else because you’re scared of their reaction if it’s not done right, constantly trying to make them happy.
Acknowledging Women’s Strength To Rebuild After Abuse
That’s not for your happiness; it’s because you’re being controlled by someone else. But choosing to do that because it genuinely brings you pride, joy, and a feeling of fulfillment, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s a sign you’re living your best life. But “Happily Ever After” isn’t about never facing problems or not having to work hard. It’s not expecting everything to be fine forever. That’s not happiness; it’s an illusion.
It’s interesting that many women don’t know what they want. Many want to be wives and mothers, which is awesome. But then, some think about working after their kids are out of the house because they feel they need something else, and they’re not sure what steps to take next. And that’s okay. Not knowing exactly what you want to do is alright. It doesn’t mean you can’t start with something.
A lot of this comes from being trained from babyhood that it’s wrong to think about what you want. We do a lot of awful things to boys and men in the name of gender roles, but one thing we tell them is to consider what they want and pursue it. But we tell girls and women that doing so makes them selfish, which is seen as bad.
So, it’s often really hard for women to think about what they want, what makes them happy, and their place in the world. We have to unlearn a lot just to learn that about ourselves. No one should underestimate how difficult that can be, how much work it takes, and how much you have to overcome.
Confining Women From Financial Independence
(22:43): At a recent conference discussing my book, I had to remind myself to encourage people to purchase it. It’s challenging for a woman to stand in front of hundreds and assert, “Buy my book. The effort I’ve invested deserves your financial support.” As a writer, that’s your purpose.
You’re there because they’re interested in your book; naturally, you should prompt them to buy it. For him, this comes naturally, but for me, it doesn’t, and I have to work on it. I openly admit I’m being deliberately selfish in asking this because I’m rejecting the fairytale princess role.
Instead, I’m actively pursuing my ambitions, seeking financial security, and asking for support. This approach may make you uncomfortable, but it’s crucial to question why. I understand it’s hard to shake off these ingrained lessons, but dismantling these restrictive structures is essential. We’re not here solely to serve others.
At BTR, our six coaches work tirelessly as their full-time job, contributing to their household income. As a single mom of three with no financial support from child support or alimony, I rely entirely on my income. It’s surprising when we receive messages criticizing us for charging for our services.
However, to provide these services, I need financial independence. This criticism often stems from women who, due to financial control by an abusive partner, can’t access the help they need.
Exploring How Money Can Help Stop Confining Women
This situation highlights the deeper issue of women’s financial independence and the ability to use their resources freely. It’s more than just the frustration of not being able to work for free; it’s about women lacking autonomy over their resources.
The notion that your role is to unconditionally serve and depend on a man is daunting to overcome. Yet, achieving emotional and psychological safety is a journey worth embarking on for many abuse victims, introducing them to a world of independence they hadn’t considered before.
The transition to viewing oneself as deserving of compensation for services, rather than serving without reward, is challenging yet necessary. Like many, I face questions about my fees for speaking engagements, but I remind others that my work sustains my basic needs allows me to continue my advocacy.
This question of compensation, surprisingly, is seldom directed at men in similar situations. Who would expect a father, solely responsible for his family’s financial well-being, to offer his services for free?
Anne (26:47): Full-time, eight hours a day, right? Yep. Full-time.
Overcoming Internalized Beliefs About Confining Women To Achieve True Strength
Jane (26:50): You know, if a guy’s a single father, he’s often hailed as a hero. The bar for men is so low sometimes, I swear it’s in hell, and they still can’t meet it. But when a man says the service he provides, whether it’s my job, your job, or anything else, is valuable and that he works hard at it, it’s totally fair for him to ask for support to continue providing that service.
I get that many women, because of what we do, might not have the money. I try to work with that as much as I can, but offering my services for free would leave me homeless and unable to provide them. It would also feed into the myth I’m fighting against: that women shouldn’t want things like financial independence from a man or a decent house that’s theirs alone.
Anne (28:13): When we talk about physical safety, like in the Living Free workshop, it’s not just about being hit. Physical safety means having shelter, food, and being able to afford basic needs. If worrying about affording an apartment, food, or childcare makes you question your safety, then his actions are indeed a threat to your physical safety.
Jane (29:40): The myth starts when a relationship heads towards marriage, suggesting a woman’s role is to serve him rather than the relationship serving both. Being in that unsafe situation, wondering where you’ll live or how you’ll eat, is terrifying. Many of these situations are actively confining women.
The Importance Of Learning To Live Free From Abuse
I’ve worked in domestic violence and seen women face the choice between violence or homelessness. It’s hard to climb out, but possible with work and self-belief. Some amazing women do it; it’s astounding that many do, showing incredible strength and courage. These women, overcoming beliefs of incapability, try and most succeed.
Watching women rebuild from abuse shows their immense strength. I wish I could show women who doubt their ability the strength of those who’ve rebuilt their lives, starting from thinking they couldn’t and proving they could.
Anne (32:05): Yeah, it’s incredible. Our Living Free workshop focuses on thinking a little differently about situations to make progress toward living free and feeling peace. It’s not just about escaping psychologically or emotionally abusive relationships at BTR. We also focus on post-divorce issues, dealing with emotional and psychological abuse due to co-parenting.
Every domestic violence shelter says divorce is the answer. I say it might be one step on your journey to safety. But for those of us who suffered severe emotional and psychological abuse post-divorce, like my eight years of post-divorce abuse, knowing how to live free from this is crucial.
So, check out The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. To learn more about Jane’s book, Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children, go to janegilmore.com. You can also find it on Amazon. Jane, I’ve loved talking with you. Thank you so much for joining the podcast again.
Jane (33:16): Oh, thank you. It was so nice to be here. I love talking with you too. I always really enjoy our conversations. Thank you so much for inviting me.
5 Ways Fairy Tales Brainwashed Women Not To Recognize Abuse
May 28, 2024
Did you know the underlying themes in fairy tales brainwash women and girls to not recognize abuse?
Fairy tales are, of course, a staple of many childhoods, offering stories of magic, adventure, and often, (apparently?) love conquering all. However, a closer examination reveals an unsettling undercurrent: these tales inadvertently lead women and girls to not recognize abuse.
This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with Jane Gilmore
Part One: 5 Ways Fairy Tales Brainwashed Women Not To Recognize Abuse (This Episode)
Fairy tales often feature a damsel in distress, rescued by a prince or male hero. This trope subtly suggests that women are dependent on men for their salvation, often enduring suffering from an evil woman until a man resolves their situation. This narrative reinforces the notion that women should be passive and patient, even in abusive scenarios, awaiting rescue rather than taking action.
2. Glorification Of Sacrifice And Suffering
Fairy tales often glorify characters, particularly women, who endure hardship and experience abuse with grace and patience, suggesting that suffering is noble and leads to a happy ending. This dangerous message can lead individuals to believe that tolerating abuse is virtuous and a necessary path to true love or happiness.
3. Romanticizing Situations Where Women Don’t Recognize Abuse
Some fairy tales romanticize relationships that are abusive from the start. Characters who engage in stalking, kidnapping, or other forms of abuse are frequently depicted as men who despite these negative somehow change throughout the ordeal, which never happens in real life.
4. Lack Of Consent And Autonomy
The theme of lack of consent runs rampant in many fairy tales, with female characters often having little say in their fate or relationships. This lack of autonomy and consent is a form of psychological abuse that teaches women and girls to accept a passive role in their personal and romantic lives.
5. The Redemption Of Abusers
Fairy tales frequently conclude with the redemption of the abuser, suggesting that love can change abusive behavior. This narrative is harmful and unrealistic, as it can encourage individuals to stay in abusive relationships under the false hope of changing their partner.
In this episode, Anne interviews Jane Gilmore, a writer, speaker, and feminist, about her new book titled Fairy Tale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. Jane explains that the book was inspired by her realization of the deep misogyny and harmful messages present in classic fairy tales, particularly those aimed at young girls. What are the unhealthy themes in fairy tales that condition s to not recognize abuse?
Women are often pitted against each other
Non-consensual acts painted as desirable
Stripping of women’s agency and promoting silence as virtuous
Fairy tales often portray women as threats and villains, not men
Women are responsible for fixing violent men with love and servitude
Why Didn’t I See it? How Beloved Fairy Tales Betrayed Us
Anne (00:00): I have Jane Gilmore back on today’s episode. We interviewed her a while back. I hope that you got to listen to those episodes. They were incredible. Jane is a writer, speaker, and feminist. Welcome back, Jane.
Jane Gilmore (00:18): Thank you, Anne. It’s so lovely to be here.
Anne (00:21): Your episodes are incredible. I love talking to you. Jane’s back on today to talk about her new book, fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. I love the title of that, the Little Mermaid is one of my personal nemesis. Let’s talk about this new book and how it helps women understand how fairly tales teach women not to recognize abuse. Jane, what gave you the idea that this book needed to be written?
Jane Gilmore (00:55): Well, I’m living in Melbourne and we had such a long lockdown during the first part of Covid, basically two years we were in and out of lockdown. You start just going into really weird places when you’re at home that long. I watched the Snow White movie on the Disney Channel. I haven’t watched it since I was a kid and haven’t really paid much attention to fairy tales since, they were horrific.
This is a children’s movie, for little girls and the misogyny is so deep, but it is more than that. It is this idealization of women being not just helpless and submissive, but actively participating in other people abusing them. I am thinking, oh, this is just because it’s old. This is not what they really like.
Why Do Fairy Tales Teach Us Not to Recognize Abuse?
(01:45): I started looking into them and the five stories that I chose for this book. Which I retold along with an essay about Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, and The Little Mermaid. But when I really start looking into them, it is so clear that these fairy tales teach women not to recognize abuse. Snow White is about making other women the enemy. Beauty is obviously about consent.
Cinderella is about women’s unpaid labor that, not just uncomplaining, but enjoying our manipulation to serve mostly men. The Little Mermaid is about staying silent in the face of somebody diminishing you constantly.
Jane: Yeah, women do need support to see how these themes affect their daily lives. In Beauty and the Beast is coercive control, if you love him enough, he will turn into your handsome prince. This angry, dangerous, violent man just needs you to love him more. And if he doesn’t turn into your handsome prince, it’s your fault for not trying harder.
Analyzing Misogynistic Themes In Classic Fairy Tales
(02:48): And that’s what these fairytales are about teaching women and girl not to recognize abuse. They’re telling little girls that the way to be a good woman, a proper woman, a fairytale princess, is the defining characteristic of what they call unselfish. Which is to not ask anything for yourself, to not think that you deserve respect, kindness, agency, money.
To even ask for those things, to even want those things,even if you don’t ask for them, makes you morally culpable. Oh, aren’t they pretty? And they get the handsome Prince and everybody gets married and lives happily ever asked her, and isn’t that wonderful? The underlying message is that, it is wrong for you to want anything for yourself, including self-respect.
Anne (03:36): I have so much to talk to you about and so many questions. I want to tell a quick story of a friend of mine who finally divorced her first abuser. She started dating and she met this man and she told me how wonderful he is and how great he is, and his ex was just such a gold digger.
I said, “Whoa, what? Okay, red flag there, right? You’ve got another abuser on your hands.”
Challenging The “Tales” About “Gold Diggers” And Ambition
And he said, “She’s such a gold digger, she just wanted me for my money.”
Then she says, “Because he has a lot of money, but I don’t care about that. That’s not what I’m interested in. I just want a good relationship.”
They went on a trip and he said, “Get anything you want, what would you like to buy?”
(04:23): And she said, “Oh, no, no, no, I’m not like that. I’m not into your money like your ex, I don’t want anything.”
She thought she had a great trip and he was so kind and nice and that everything went really well.
I said, “He’s already groomed you to say that you don’t want money or need anything. And if you marry him, you realize you’ll be like, Hey, I’m going to the grocery store. And he’ll be like, what again? You just married me for my money, like my ex, he’s setting you up for this.”
Of course, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. I should have kept my mouth shut.
I said to her, “If you’re going to continue dating him, if he says that again, what would you like? Say, oh, I want this and buy something expensive, something that’s like 150 bucks, not super expensive, even if you don’t want it, if he says get anything you want and then you get something, try it out. See what happens.”
Examining Gender Stereotypes And Dynamics In Relationships
I said, “Never ever say I’m not a gold digger. I’m not like that.”
Say, “Oh, that makes sense that your wife wanted a roof over her head in groceries. Most women do. Yeah.”
Jane Gilmore (05:39): To me the warning sign is always, if you take the word that they’re trying to get you to prove that you’re not like gold Digger is a perfect one. Is there a role equivalent? Is there a word that can apply to any gender? Because if it’s just about women, it’s tying into, are you a good woman?
Are you not like other girls? Are you going to prove to me that you can be all the things that I can use to manipulate you? And Gold Digger is such a good one because in men that’s called ambition and it’s a good thing.
Anne (06:07): The other one is that she said the same woman, his ex never gave him any sex.
I said, “Anytime a man says that to you, this is how you respond. You say, oh, I’m glad that she did what she wanted to. I love it when women do that.”
Jane Gilmore (06:40): Yes. There is a study that found women become less interested in sex, the longer a relationship goes on. If you flip it around and go, what if it’s men become less sexually appealing in a relationship? In the long term because they do less to earn your respect, trust, joy, sense of fun, and your desire.
You are constantly on edge and afraid. Nobody feels sexy when they’re walking on eggshells all the time.
Themes That Don’t Recognize Abuse Found In Fairy Tales
Somebody is saying to you, ‘This is your fault. You are not interested in sex, you are not trying hard enough.”
They are not taking any of the blame, this is our relationship and we share in what goes on here. Again, massive red flag.
Anne (07:37): As you studied all these different princess fairytales, what were some of the overarching themes that you saw?
Jane Gilmore (07:51): I was a bit surprised about some of them, not because they were shocking, but because I didn’t realize how deeply embedded they are in this fairytale princess myth. One of them is this constant idea that men are not responsible for anything really, that the villain is always other women. They are not teaching women to recognize abuse.
The wicked stepmother, the wicked stepsisters. The man is either the prize that you get for being unselfish, the handsome prince, or he’s the father who has no responsibility at all.
Every fairytale princess, her mother dies when she’s a baby except for a sleeping beauty. And the mother doesn’t come into the story at all and the father is the king who might send people out to run a mission or something, but he’s never responsible for his daughter. He marries another woman because of course he couldn’t be expected to bring up a child on his own.
We Need To Recognize Abuse
Anne: When I wrote The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, I want to highlight that we’ve all been exposed to these types of myths our whole lives and what we can do to get them out of our heads. Women have really enjoyed the analogies in Living Free and how it’s replaced these societal scripts that caused everyone not to recognize abuse.
Jane (08:40): Yeah, it takes a long time to dig through all this stuff. The evil stepmother becomes the villain and there is no point in the story where the men who make choices that affect women’s lives have any responsibility for those choices. Snow White for instance, the original story by the Grimm Brothers is shocking. Snow White is seven years old in the story. She’s a seven year old child.
She’s taken off to the woods by a hunter under orders from her evil stepmother and the hunter is ordered to kill her. In the original story, he’s supposed to cut out her heart and lungs to take back to the evil stepmother. If she can eat them she won’t show visible signs of aging, the most wicked thing any woman can do is visibly age and still expect to have a place in the world.
(09:31): Snow White is seven she finds the Seven Dwarves. She immediately takes on all their domestic labor. She sings songs about how wonderful it is that she gets to do all the work to look after seven men and how much she loves it. Next, she’s poisoned by the evil stepmother and they think she’s dead. They put her in a glass box and a handsome prince comes past and sees a dead child in a glass box. All of this glorifies when women and girls don’t recognize abuse.
The Abusive Conclusions Of Fairy Tales
He says, oh, ‘That’s beautiful. That’s mine. I want it.” The Seven Dwarves immediately recognize, of course he’s a rich, powerful man, he should have the beautiful dead girl that he wants. Then he says to her, “Brilliant, you’re awake. Now you can be my wife.” And she says, “Thank you. Yes, I’d love that.”
That’s the Snow White story. And that is the one that I rewrote. I didn’t change the plot at all. I just rewrote it to point out all these things about just, wow, little girls and little girls still dress up as Snow White. They want to be like Snow White.
This idea that other women are the thing that is going to put young girls in danger, which we know is just not true. I’m not saying that other women don’t have their problems. They absolutely do. We can get into all kinds of discussions about that, but other women are not the threat to your life. Other women are not going to commit the kind of abuse against you that your male partner will.
Nowhere in the fairytale Princess’s story is the handsome prince ever the problem. The story ends when they get married and the marriage is never a part of the story. It’s why the mother dies at the beginning of all of fairytale Princess stories because marriage and children and the relationship itself is not the fairytale princess myth.
The myth is to be good, beautiful, submissive, kind, and unselfish. Do everything you can to prove how much you deserve a handsome prince, then your story ends. Women are being told not to recognize abuse and be quiet about it.
Fairy Tales About Women That Set Women Up Not To Recognize Abuse
Anne (11:24): What’s interesting, it’s almost like that’s where the man wants it to end, right? He’s like, “If I can set this up and be like, okay, you’re beautiful, you do all the domestic labor, you don’t have a voice. I am your savior and I can do no wrong.”
We end there with marriage, he owns you and you have to do whatever he says because of coverture laws. You’re literally his property, back in the day when these were written, and you’re my domestic slave. That is a happy ending for him.
Jane Gilmore (12:00): These are the stories that we all grew up on, and it’s not even just the Grimm brother stories, which were horrific. The Disney stories, Disney Plus has over a hundred million subscribers. If I’ve got little kids and I’m saying, “Okay, God, I just need an hour to myself.” Put them down in front of the electronic babysitter. I know it’s not ideal, but we’ve all done it.
Come on. And you think, well, the Disney Channel, they’ve got to be safe there. Then you have a look at Sleeping Beauty, which in the quintessential fairytale Princess, Sleeping Beauty is the first published one I could find, from Italy in about 1500. Her name is Talia, Talia has the Curse to make her fall asleep.
(12:50): It’s not a handsome prince, it’s a king from a neighboring country. Comes in and finds her asleep, looks at her. He tries to wake her up, and fails. He impregnates her. Now we know what the word for that is, right? That’s rape. Rape. That’s rape.
If You’re Not Teaching Consent You Are’t Teaching Women To Recognize Abuse
She eventually wakes up after she’s had twins. She is so delighted to find that while she is unconscious, she is impregnated by somebody she doesn’t remember and has babies. He meanwhile has forgotten about her, and this is specifically in the story, he remembered her and came back presumably to do it again.
Jane Gilmore (13:28): Yeah, yeah. Finds her and the babies. She says, “How wonderful to meet you. Finally, the father of my children, I’m in love. Let’s get married.” He says, “Okay, sure. There’s just a bit of a problem. I’ve already got a wife, but nevermind. Let’s go back to my place and we’ll find the wife and I’ll kill her and then we can get married and everything will be fine.”
The original story, called Sun, Moon, and Talia, it’s available online. It’s not under copyright anymore. They go back to his place, he tries to kill his wife or he says he’s going to kill his wife, but then she tries to kill Sleeping Beauty first and the children because
Anne (14:02): She’s the bad one, not him.
Jane Gilmore (14:04): She’s the evil one, not him. He’s the hero of this story. She fails in her attempts to kill Sleeping Beauty and the children, she does this by telling the servants to kill the children and serve them up to Sleeping Beauty and the King as dinner. The servants say, “Maybe we won’t kill and cook the babies.”
No, they tell the king. He sets his wife on fire and burns her alive, and then marries Sleeping Beauty and they live happily ever after. Such a cute story.
Anne (14:35): This is horrifying
Sleeping Beauty’s Teaches Women Not To Recognize Abuse
Jane Gilmore (14:37): So bad. And obviously Disney sanitized this a lot because we would never let our children watch that movie. Essentially it’s the same story. She’s asleep, she sleeps through her entire story. This is how much agency that story wants to give women.
You are unconscious while we tell your story. Handsome Prince comes in, kisses her while she’s asleep, which is Disney’s version of rape, and she wakes up and, oh, my handsome prince, how wonderful. Let’s get Married. That’s her story, the idea that a woman needs to be conscious, talking, having a personality, having ideas, having thoughts, having feelings, and desires for a man to fall in love with her is abhorrent.
Sleeping Beauty must be unconscious for the Handsome Prince to want her, is all the agency that is given to little girls in this story.
Anne (15:31): I love your stuff, Jane. You are so smart. You say it and I’m like, “That is so good. Why didn’t I think of that?” Love it.
Jane Gilmore (15:40): Honestly, this is how I spent most of lockdown, reading through these stories thinking, what does that mean? Where does it come from? That’s the original story that comes from, WOW. That was my pandemic experience.
Anne (15:53): It is shocking. Disney tries to be inclusive and modern and whatever. When the new live action Beauty and the Beast came out with Emma Watson. I thought, surely they have fixed this, to not be so absolutely terrible. To fix the Stockholm Syndrome part, which it’s not a thing.
Women are just trying to survive. They’re not falling in love with anyone. Surely they have fixed this, but it is exactly the same as their cartoon.
Modern Adaptations Still Don’t Recognize Abuse
I thought, what is happening? Did they not notice? In my head, I have it rewritten so it works perfectly so that they could fall in love and she not be coerced and or abused and or treated badly, and it would make sense. I couldn’t believe that they did the same thing over again.
They seem like they’re trying to be committed to not being misogynists. I just couldn’t wrap my head around that. What year did that come out, 2017, that’s almost after #metoo.
Jane Gilmore (17:06): I had exactly the same reaction when I watched it because Emma Watson’s surely going to fix all this. Right? I had exactly the same reaction as you. It is absolutely a story of control and abuse in both of them. He’s so angry and he’s punching walls around her and he’s terrifying her.
The solution for this is for her to love him more, do more to turn him into the handsome Prince. He has no responsibility at all to change his behavior. That’s up to her. If she loves him enough, his behavior will just magically change, but he has no responsibility at all.
That’s the story Beauty and the Beast is telling women. When a man is so angry and violent around you, that you are genuinely terrified, even before he’s physically violent. Then it is your responsibility to try harder to please him. When I started going into these stories, as I said, I watched the Snow White movie, and I was just so horrified by it that at the time, I wasn’t planning on a book or anything just for my own satisfaction.
Reimagining Fairy Tales Through a Feminist Lens
(18:29): I had to rewrite it. And then because I get obsessive about these things, I couldn’t let it go. And I started looking at some of the other movies and I started rewriting them as well, but I couldn’t. When I got to Sleeping Beauty, I couldn’t rewrite the same plot.
I could not write a story about a woman where she is unconscious throughout her story. I changed it, and I am far from the first writer or feminist to ever do this. There’s a long and very glorious history of feminist rewriting fairy tales to point out how horrific they are. I wanted to show what women’s stories can be like if they’re not that horrific.
Sleeping Beauty, I actually just went, okay, I’m going to do the full feminist fantasy. What would the Sleeping Beauty story be if it was written by Women for Women about the sort of lives, in an ideal world, that we wish we had?
(19:20): I went to the full extreme of the Snow White story, which I rewrote according to the Snow White plot. Just to point out how horrific it is, and that is a whole lot of fun. It felt redemptive. I felt I’d taken control of it. The next one I did is Beauty and the Beast, and I went back and forth between rewriting it so that she had a good outcome, a good story.
Rewriting Fairy Tales to Undo the Brainwashing
I thought how do I write this so that she has a good, equal, respectful, and happy relationship? In all of these fairytale stories, the prize at the end for the Fairytale Princess is marriage, is a man, is a relationship. There are so many other things that women want, that we do, that we work for, that we take pride in.
This is the reality of that violent, controlling, abusive man. Yes, I should actually write this and then I should publish it. People may disagree with it, they may not like it, they may not read it, that’s fine. Let’s do more and put them out into the world.
(20:19): There are so many stories about the Happily Ever After endings, and I didn’t want to write another one. I rewrote a couple of them with a happy ending that didn’t relate to having a good relationship with a man. It is about other things that women can want, but with Beauty and the Beast. I thought maybe I do give her the ending of the relationship, but a realistic one of what a relationship actually looks like. When you start with a man who’s frighteningly angry at the beginning, who is controlling and abusive fairly early on, and then you get married.
What does that relationship actually look like? How does that really end? It does not end happily ever after. There’s just no way that relationship ends happily. That one took me to some pretty dark places actually, and I was a bit hesitant about publishing it. It ended the way I know too many of these relationships do.
How Little Mermaid Teaches Us Not To Recognize Abuse
(21:20): This is when I start to think, actually, you know what? I really do need to publish these because this is the point of what I’m doing, pointing out what these fairytale princesses are telling little girls and young women about what they should expect from their lives, what they should hope for, what they should plan for and dream of.
This is the reality of that violent, controlling, abusive man. Yes, I should actually write this and then I should publish it. People may disagree with it, they may not like it, they may not read it, that’s fine. Let’s do more and put them out into the world.
Jane Gilmore (21:58): Next, I went on to The Little Mermaid and I watched the Disney movie, which is all very cute and awful. Then went back and read the Hans Christian Anderson version, the original story.
If you want to be truly horrified, read the Hans Christian Anderson story.
It’s an entire short story written to tell women to keep quiet. If you are in pain, stay silent. If you are bleeding, don’t upset people by telling anyone about it. In the original story, they cut her tail to turn it into legs, and every step she takes feels like she’s walking on knives.
She leaves a trail of bloody footprints behind her with every step she takes, but she smiles and dances for the handsome princes because that’s what he wants her to do. It’s whole message is for women to be quiet and not recognize abuse.
Sometimes It Seems Healthy, But If You Look Closer It Still Teaches Women Not to Recognize Abuse
Anne (22:54): Wow. Can that be interpreted? I mean, I’m not trying to justify the story. Like I said, the Little Mermaid is my nemesis, I don’t like it. In the original version, could that be interpreted to say it’s going to be painful to you if you try to change for a man? Or is that not, that’s not how it could be interpreted.
Jane Gilmore (23:14): Oh, look, I wish that was the case. I wish I could say yes. I wish I could say yes, and that’s what we’re aiming for here. No, it’s absolutely about women. You will experience pain in trying to change for a man, and that will only work if you stay silent about it, and eventually he might love you.
The interesting thing in the Little Mermaid, is he falls in love with somebody else who’s a proper woman, a real woman. She can praise the handsome prince and agree with him and laugh at all his jokes. The little mermaid kills herself. I swear to God, this is what happens in the original story.
She throws herself off the side of the ship and angels come to her and say, it’s okay because you chose to die rather than cause pain to the handsome Prince and his new bride. You get to live as a sort of spirit guide for the next 300 years, and if you do enough, you will eventually go to heaven. That’s her salvation for failing to win. The handsome Prince is 300 years of silent, unrecognized servitude to the world to earn her place in heaven. People don’t recognize abuse in this story.
Modern Attempts Don’t Stop the Abusive Foundations
Anne (24:26): Like a nun. Yeah. If you can’t get a husband, then the next best thing you can do is do service to the world in another way. Yes, whatever we do we must not recognize abuse.
Jane Gilmore (24:35): Yes, but you have to die so that nobody can see you or hear you doing it. You do it as a ghost. It’s staggering. This is the Little Mermaid story. Now, obviously, again, Disney sanitized it and it has the happy ever after ending.
Anne (24:50): Well, even the Disney version is just awful. You have to give up your voice for a man to like you. He falls in love with her. My kids, they hear me say this stuff, right?
They’re like, “Mom, why do we always have to talk about misogyny? Why can’t we just watch a movie?” And I say, “Because it’s blatant. I have to point it out to you.” Anyway, they loved at the end of the new one, the one that just came out where it says years later. Did you notice that?
Jane Gilmore (25:21): I haven’t seen that one. I was honestly reaching the point where I just couldn’t take it anymore. I’d done these five stories and I’d literally watched dozens and dozens of Disney movies.
Trust, Respect, And Support
Anne (25:31): Totally, totally. In the new one at the end, instead of getting married, she can talk and they don’t get married. I mean they don’t want to recognize abuse, from the past version. Then, spoiler alert, it says years later. You assume that they’ve gotten to know each other and then they decide to get married.
Jane Gilmore (25:52): Again, marriage is the happy ending and they’ve tacked on this little bit at the end.
Anne (25:57): Exactly. My kids thought it was really funny. They were like, “Yeah, right, just throw in, years later, and it solves everything?” They were being really sarcastic about it. It is better.
Jane Gilmore (26:08): Because it’s not the story, that’s not the getting to know somebody and the developing a relationship of trust and respect and happiness and support. That’s not the story.
Anne (26:18): That’s boring, and you cover that in years later. It seems these fairy tales are made not to teach women to recognize abuse, black screen. That takes two seconds. Jane and I are going to pause the conversation here. We’re going to continue our conversation next week, so stay tuned.
I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband
May 21, 2024
Have you ever asked, “Is it wrong to want to leave my emotionally abusive husband?” Many women in the BTR community yearn for emotional and psychological safety. If you’re asking yourself this same question here are some things to consider:
This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.
Part Two: I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband (This Episode)
1. What would you tell someone else if they asked?
Pretend like you’re having a conversation with someone else. Listen to your own story as if you’re someone else. What would you say to this “other” person? Would she be wrong for wanting to leave an emotionally abusive husband?
2. What would a domestic abuse expert say?
Since most therapists, clergy, and almost everybody else doesn’t understand the ins and outs of domestic abuse, especially when it comes to emotional and psychological abuse, they’re not the right people to ask about whether or not your desire to leave your emotionally abusive husband is appropriate.
Anne Blythe, M.Ed, Producer & Host of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women assess their level of emotional safety everyday. At BTR.ORG emotional safety is the top priority. So rather than asking yourself if it’s wrong to leave or even if you should leave, Anne would support you in your journey to discover what it means to be emotionally safe and to take steps to become emotionally safe, in whatever way works for you.
3. Who told you it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband?
If you’re wondering if it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband, consider why you’re even asking this question in the first place. Does the question even make sense? Who has told you or where have you picked up the idea that it could be wrong to leave an emotionally abusive relationship?
Anne wrote The BTR.ORG Meditations so that women can look inside themselves to sort out their own thoughts from the society scripting in their heads to determine what the is the best course of action to take. Start listening to your intuition, rather than people who don’t understand what it’s like to live in your situation.
4. Consider asking, “How do I establish emotional safety,” instead of, “Can I get to emotional safety?”
One thing’s for sure, all women can get to emotionally safety. So it’s important to focus on HOW. Anne developed The BTR.ORG Living Free and Message Workshops for specifically this reason – to help victims get to emotional safety. To learn more about HOW, visit btr.org/livingfree
This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.
Part Two: I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband (This Episode)
Whether you’re fully committed to separating from your husband, or have gone back and forth on this painful decision, consider these tips and strategies Anne and Karen discuss in the transcript below.
Dreaming Big
Anne (00:00): Karen DeArmond Gardner is back, we’re talking about dreaming big and how even just daydreaming can help victims start making their way to safety. Also about The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop where we help women begin to change their thoughts in order to start making their way to safety. So we’re going to join the conversation right there.
Have You Enrolled in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop Yet?
Anne: That’s one of the things that we talk about in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. So we have a workshop that helps women know how to think about the situation and how to communicate with an abuser in a strategic way in order to get to safety and then set boundaries in order to get too emotional and psychological safety. One of those things is to dream.
So many women just have stopped because they think, I have to be content with this. It will never get any better than this because that’s what they’ve been told. I find it to be very satisfying to say, no, there’s so many options for you, but it’s really hard to see that when you’re still being traumatized over and over.
Let’s talk about women who are trying to heal, but they’re still being traumatized by the abuser repeatedly. Is it possible to heal while you’re actively being traumatized? We talk about this all the time in BTR.ORG Group Sessions.
Don’t Announce to the World That You Want to Leave
Karen (04:04): Leaving is not something you announce to the world. I don’t care what the TVs or movies say. You don’t announce to him, I’m going to leave you. You don’t do that. Become an actress and if you’re thinking about it, you put on the face, you react as you normally would.
You don’t let ’em know that your thinking is changing, though they’re very perceptive at noticing little nuances. It’s a matter of protecting yourself and your kids, and then when you do leave, then there’s a whole new level of trauma.
Now, I have not experienced this at all, but I have watched, I have talked to the women, I interact with them, and what they deal with after is horrible. Whether you stay in an abusive marriage for 30 or 40 years or you leave the trauma, it stays because you’ve got to deal with this man until your kids are adults.
Some of these women do it, the strength that it takes for them to stand and to raise their kids and to fight for themselves and to fight for the kids is absolutely extraordinary.
Discussion on Post-Separation Abuse
Anne (05:13): Yeah, it’s rough. I had it for eight years post-divorce of post-divorce abuse, and it is just awful. I’m delivered now, which is amazing and freeing. I do think though the post-divorce abuse that a lot of people for good reason are really worried about, and they choose to stay.
For me, I found it to be better because at least it wasn’t in my house. At least it was coming from the outside and I had a safe space where I could breathe.
It’s really, really rough and sometimes safety is the healing. When you’re safe, you can kind of not always, and healing does need to be intentional, but it’s almost instantaneous healing at times when you really are safe and they cannot harm you anymore.
Because that’s such a rare situation if someone gets abandoned for example, or there are times where someone miraculously does not have to interact with the abuser anymore for any reason.
There’s still all those questions that come up and then his voice in your head and all the societal scripting and also the anger of how did other people not help me with the secondary trauma?
That’s really hard when you’re thinking about getting to safety when you are like, this is obviously emotionally unsafe for me, it’s psychologically unsafe. I need to start making my way. I need to start being the operative word there. What do you do when the start stops you, when the starting is the thing that you can’t quite do?
Should You Leave: What Do You Do When The “Start” Stops You
Karen (06:55): Yeah, it is, and it’s so funny that you say it that way because the start can stop you. It is hard to know what to do. There’s a scripture that is, and even if you don’t believe in the Bible, but this part is so true, it says that God did not give us a spirit of fear timidity, but of power, love, and a sound mind when we’re afraid.
Number one, there is no love, fear and love cannot occupy the same space. It’s one or the other. It’s like taking two magnets and they’ll automatically go together. If you turn one around and you try to put the magnet together, they will shoot apart, and that’s what fear and love does.
If you’re living in fear, you’re not living in love. Love has gone out of the equation because the abusers keep you in a cycle of chaos.
How Does Gaslighting Factor In?
(07:52): I don’t mean in a cycle of like he’s abusive, then he’s not. I mean a cycle, constant cycle of confusion, which is why they use gaslighting so that you will question everything that you know is true and he’ll have you questioning that and you will doubt yourself at every single turn.
How in the world do you start over when you can’t even think a straight thought that if you make a decision, what if you’re wrong? Because he would set you up for failure in making decisions and you would make a decision and then it would be wrong because no matter what you did, it was going to be wrong. Now how do you make a decision?
I mean, it sounds almost impossible, and that’s why we say hard doesn’t even begin to explain the struggle of regaining your sound mind, your correct thinking, to taking your power back, to take your love back, to even care about yourself enough that is this really what I’m worth?
Where Did the Eggshells Go?
(09:04): I have no more value than to be whatever he wants me to be. And now you’ve got to work through the battle. That’s the obstacle we face is our own brain because it is brain science that our brain gets jumbled up, and how do we undo that to be able to think clearly?
That’s part of what we’re dealing with is undoing all of that. And you mentioned it earlier about when you become safe, there’s something about that that all of a sudden you recognize that the chaos is gone and you may not notice it first because it’s a strange feeling. It’s odd. You don’t feel like you’re walking around on the eggshells all the time. Where did the eggshells go?
And I don’t have to watch out for the landmines. There’s going to be a hidden landmine there that I might step on. I don’t have to worry about that. As you navigate that, it is through that your brain will start getting some clarity, but those clarity moments are sometimes hard because you have to face the hard truths that he never loved you.
Should I Leave if He Doesn’t Know How to Love
Anne (10:22): Not because you’re not lovable, because you’re absolutely lovable, but because that’s not how he operates. He doesn’t even know how to love.
Karen (10:30): He doesn’t. He can put on a good show to get you to marry him and say all the right words. He’s a counterfeit. He’s a conman. Think of a conman.
If you’ve ever watched the show about conman, and I think there was a TV show that came out this last season and I got to where it was too hard to watch the constant con going on to trick people, but it is literally what they do, and they keep you guessing and wondering what’s true and what’s not.
And that’s part of the healing process is determining what’s true and what isn’t. Am I valuable? Am I crazy? You feel crazy? That’s a word. You can feel that. That doesn’t mean you can feel unlovable. That doesn’t mean you are, because that’s how the abuser makes us feel, to feel unlovable, to feel all of these things.
And that doesn’t mean we discount them because we need to pay attention to those feelings because they’re telling us that something is off, that something is wrong because those emotions are valid. So anybody that says, oh, don’t listen to your feelings and your emotions, they’ll lie to you. No, they’re not. They’re telling you something’s wrong and to pay attention to them.
The Difficulty of Divorce, The Hope of Safety
Anne (11:46): For so many victims, I try to have this dichotomous conversation and you just mentioned it about how hard it is going to be and these are all the obstacles you’re going to face. Recently I talked to one and I was like, make sure you don’t tell your clergy because then he’s going to pull him in and he’s going to get you guys in couple therapy and you don’t want to do that.
(12:40): She had decided she wanted to leave, so I wasn’t trying to get her to divorce. She had already decided she wanted to do that, and I said, well, just go for it then. Otherwise it’s going to push you back like a year.
It Is Going to be the Most Worthwhile Endeavor to Deliver Yourself from Abuse
I was trying to warn her about how hard it was going to be and all the obstacles she was going to face, which is important to warn victims about when they’re trying to get to safety. And then also talking about that and then talking about the hope, sharing that even though it’s going to be very hard, it is going to be the most worthwhile endeavor to deliver yourself from abuse. You will be very grateful that you took action in order to do that.
And for women of faith, you will see miracles along the way. They might seem really small. You might wonder, why is this happening? God cannot know because he’s not helping me. And then maybe a year later or two years later, you’ll realize, oh, he was helping me.
I just didn’t realize it. Can you talk about as we advocate for victims and as we educate women about abuse, helping them understand how hard it’s going to be, and then also giving them hope at the same time, and why those two things are so important?
Should You Leave? Your Mind Will Clear
Karen (13:53): I agree. We have to tell people how hard it’s going to be when they leave, that it’s not necessarily going to get easier, but it’s not forever that what we go through. It is not forever. It is for now what you’re feeling. What you’re dealing with is normal, feeling crazy is normal, but it’s not forever.
Your mind will clear. You will as you heal, as you discover what you were in and discover more of who you are, the hope grows. And it’s hard to see in the beginning because we live by the end of our nose. We can’t see beyond our end of our nose, but it’s as if that hand gets filler, like your hand is in front of your face.
The longer you’re out, the more aware you become, the more healing you get. It gets further and further away until suddenly you see, wow, there are trees out here.
What Happened to Us Does Not Have to Define Us
(14:49): Wow, when did the sky get so blue? What happened here? And everything is about hope. It’s not based on our religious beliefs or it’s the fact that hope is built within us, and it’s that where we keep our eye on the hope for our future because it will get better.
Because there was never a promise that life was going to be easy. We have evil in this world. There are evil people, and God gave us free will to choose and to not to choose, and people made really bad decisions on our behalf and to harm us. Now when we leave, we get to start making decisions, and if it’s a wrong one, okay, we learn from our mistakes.
That’s part of the process of learning from right decisions and even wrong ones. But I believe that out of the healing is the ashes. What happened to us does not have to define us. That is not who we are. It was what was done to us. It is not who we are. Hope is so important because the hard part is choosing to live again, but it’s beautiful, it’s hard and glorious and amazing all at the same time.
Do I Need to Leave to Get to Emotional Safety?
Anne (16:14): I always want victims to know that it’s possible. I don’t want them to ask the question, can I leave. The question I want them to ask is how. I know that a peaceful life is possible. I know that it’s been promised to me in the scriptures, for example, if you’re a woman of faith, but just logically, it is possible to be able to choose the life that you want to live.
Instead of saying, can I do it, don’t even think that you can put that question in the trash and never ever get it out and only ask how I would like a life of peace. How do I get to emotional safety? Should I leave? How do I get to psychological safety and then just start taking one step at a time?
Karen (17:05): Yes, the question becomes, why not me? Why not me? Not why me did he choose me? Why did this happen to me, but why not me for hope, for my dreams?
Anne (17:18): Absolutely. Well, Karen, thank you so much for spending time with us. I appreciate your thoughts and I’m so grateful that you shared your story.
Karen (17:29): Oh, well, I am so appreciative to interact with you and to talk with you and just be able to shine more light on this really ugly world of domestic abuse and bring hope.
I Don’t Want A Divorce But I Don’t Know What Else To Do
May 14, 2024
If you don’t want a divorce, there are several alternatives to consider. The fear of starting over can be a major hurdle. After 30 years of emotional and psychological abuse, a survivor shares her story.
This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.
I found myself thinking, “What am I going to do? What’s going to happen?” I was about to turn 70, and I knew I needed emotional safety. – Karen DeArmond Gardner
Reasons Why Women Don’t Want A Divorce
Regardless of age, most women feel intense fear and concern about divorce. I’ve never met a woman who wants a divorce. Women don’t want a divorce because answering this questions seems daunting:
How will I provide for myself and my children?
What if this was my only chance at love and partnership?
Isn’t divorce wrong?
What if he changes at some point, and I miss out on it?
What if I spend the rest of my life alone?
Where will I live?
What if everyone believes his version of the story?
I’ve never worked, how will I get a job?
These are perfectly valid reasons you don’t want a divorce. Anne and Karen dive into ways that you can work through these fears in this episode. Further, The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop offers practical strategies and exercises that you can practice again and again to free yourself from fear and proactively work toward confidence and empowerment.
When You Say to Yourself: I Don’t Want A Divorce?
Anne (02:43): Moving from hopelessness to hope, Karen left her emotionally abusive husband.
Karen is a woman of faith, so if you are agnostic or atheist or anything else, you’re welcome here.
Everyone is always welcome. If you come on the podcast, you’re always welcome to share from your own faith or non-faith perspective. Karen and I don’t share the same faith tradition. So we’ll be talking about faith each from our own experience and perspective.
Let’s start, Karen, with your story. Can you tell me a little about your story?
Share Your Story of Starting If You Don’t Want A Divorce
Karen (04:12): Ha, where do you start in your story when you left or when you got into it? I stayed 30 years in an abusive marriage, but at 20 years old, I didn’t know that. He was charming and kind, and he was funny. He was a good listener. I told him secrets I had never told anybody in my entire life, and I had no idea.
Now were there red flags? Yes. Do you pay attention to him? You do, but they excuse him. It’s like, well, that’s a one-off because he’s this guy over here. He’s always telling me how amazing I am, and so it just must be like a one-off.
We got married after two and a half months of meeting. I’m just going to tell you don’t do that. I had no idea what I was stepping into, noticing things changed, but I didn’t have anything to compare it to.
Because my father was abusive, and then the man she was currently married to while I was growing up was an alcoholic. I really didn’t have anything to compare to what is normal and what’s not normal.
Instead of Happily Ever After, I Was Asking, “I Don’t Want a Divorce?”
Anne (05:45): So many women have that situation. I remember telling my doctor, my internal medicine family practice doctor, I don’t know what is okay, because I’ve never been married to anyone else, and everybody tells you marriage is hard and everybody tells you you have to work hard at it and you have to be loving and patient.
We get educated about how to love and serve and forgive and be kind and listen and all that stuff. But we get very little education about abuse, so it gets confusing. We talk so much about recognizing abuse in BTR.ORG Group Sessions.
Karen (06:18): Honestly, nobody talks about that. I mean, even today, every pre-marriage session should include a section on recognizing abusive behaviors, and it should occur separately because she won’t admit that in front of him, and vice versa.
Yet, even in this day and age, we still fail to implement this. People struggle to imagine that someone so kind, funny, and well-liked could have a dark side. I wasn’t searching for a fairytale; I didn’t even have marriage on my mind. Instead of a fairytale, I ended up living a nightmare.
Some guys, as soon as you say I do, they immediately, they turn, they strip off all the masks and the monster is there and some guys are really slow at it, and ours was slow and periodic and it was mostly verbal and emotional and psychological, but I didn’t know that.
Accepting the Intention Behind the Abuse When Thinking “I Don’t Want A Divorce”
Most of what I know about what happened to me is after the fact. I still have moments and I’ve been out now coming up, it’ll be 19 years, and so I’m coming up on these anniversaries. I still have moments where I’ll read something on social media and I’m like, whoa, wow. Yes.
There’s all these tactics. There are so many, but even I am still surprised at what he did and how abusive it was.
Anne (07:52): And also I think the longer we’re out of it, we realize how intentional it was too, which is heartbreaking.
Karen (07:59): Yes, it is. I can’t tell you how many women are like, oh, he didn’t do it on purpose. I’m like, yeah, he really did. No, no, he wouldn’t do that. He just had this and his that.
You can hear the cognitive dissonance going on in their brain, and it’s part of that healing process of getting over those thoughts that have taken over the lies that we think are really true because they resonate.
Because he said it so many times and ingrained it with behaviors and reactions and punishments. Whatever words you want to use. That it is so reinforced that we think that he couldn’t help it because he said it for so long.
It’s hard to admit that this man that you shared your bed with and raised children with that said he loved you, actually purposely married you, so he would have the freedom to abuse you.
When You Don’t Want A Divorce, But You Feel Like You Don’t Have Any Options
Anne (09:01): I think it also comes from societal scripting, some religious scripting as well. It almost confirms the abusive gaslighting that they’re telling you. Then you go to maybe a therapist or clergy or a friend, and they unknowingly are also confirming to you this false reality that yeah, you should be submitting.
That’s what a good wife would do, or whatever they’re saying that kind of keeps you stuck there and you don’t realize what’s happening.
Karen (09:36): Because sometimes you don’t know that you have an option and which to some people sounds a little bit crazy. But the reality is when you’re in the middle of it, you feel like you don’t have any options.
Anne (09:49): Also you have really good intentions. You care about your children, you care about your family. If clergy or someone else is saying to you, well, if you really care about your family, you need to forgive.
For example, or if you really follow Jesus, then you need to submit and forgive and pray for him or advice like that. That doesn’t help women get to emotional safety.
But I Don’t want a Divorce!
You’re around 50 years old at the time and you’re thinking, I don’t want a divorce is it time for me to leave. Am I really Going to Just Put 30 Years in the Trash and Start Over? I need to get to emotional safety, psychological safety, and you sort of see it as starting over, which is scary because people don’t want a divorce. They’ve already invested 30 years into this relationship.
Thinking, I don’t want a divorce? Can you talk about your decision to leave and the concept of starting over? How that either can help victims to leave, like, oh, I get a fresh start, or it can actually keep them stuck because they’re like, I don’t want a divorce. I’ve already invested too much.
I Was Afraid to Move, I Don’t Want A Divorce
Karen (10:57): I think starting over is the part that doesn’t even enter your brain. It didn’t enter my mind because I couldn’t even think that far ahead. The time that I left six months prior to leaving was when I realized one day I had the moment when I realized I was done, he wasn’t worth it anymore.
This man clearly cares nothing about me. I was just done. It still took six months to leave because I didn’t know how to do that. I was isolated from my family. And it just happened that my mom came in December for my daughter’s graduation from college and was staying for Christmas, and it was that week before Christmas as everything came to a head.
I don’t know how I decided that I was going to leave, but that’s all that I could think of. I was 51 when I left. When I landed in Texas a little less than a month later, about three weeks later, I couldn’t even imagine life any different than it was. I felt like a little kid who someone took all the fences down and I was afraid to move.
Finding Light in the Darkness
(12:14): There was dangerous traffic all around me, and I was so stuck and I was so terrified. I went from terrified of leaving him, I knew what he was capable of, I felt terrified. Now what do I do? I don’t know how to do this. I was with my family and my sister would drive me places and help me make decisions, and my brother was helping me because I couldn’t think straight.
The thought of starting over just seemed overwhelming, and I didn’t use that terminology until I got a job. About two and a half months after I left, I got a new job here in Texas. Then that changed my thinking because all of a sudden I found these people that just absolutely adored me.
They liked me. I mean, that was a big deal. They actually liked me.
Over time, as I was away from his abuse, I could feel my mind clearing as I was working at learning a new job, I was in four months of training. I could feel the shift slowly happen to where all of a sudden I could see possibilities and it was terrifying.
I was just bumbling around in the dark, and that’s what it felt like, I just literally felt like I was bumbling around in the dark because up to this point, I had part-time jobs or I had inconsequential jobs. He wanted me to work, but I always worked under my capabilities. Every job I had was never to my capabilities.
Starting Over: Remembering Who You REALLY Are
(14:01): Now I have a job where I feel myself growing and learning and expanding my mind and starting to see this is so different. I’m not sure I’m really answering your question because it’s hard to put words to what I felt then.
I had no idea who I was when I came out of the marriage. I was really mousy and quiet, and I’m not that way.
That’s not who I am. I’m not mousy or quiet. I could overtalk. I could be too loud when I’d get excited. It’s only been in the last few years that the Lord has actually showed me.
He’s given me glimpses of moments in my early married life where I was that way. Because of his reaction, I learned over time that not to be loud, to not talk, to not give my opinion. It took time.
There were times when he would come at me and I would fight back emotionally or verbally. I was fighting back and I thought I always just appeased him and I didn’t. And the Lord had to open up my mind to help me to remember. He made you this way. This is not who you were. So it has helped me to accept where I am to today, if that makes any sense.
Your Personality Didn’t Cause the Abuse
Anne (15:29): When it comes to abuse recovery, the advice is, what were you like before? There is a population of victims who were quiet before, and so they’re like, well, I was always quiet. And so they get a little bit confused.
You have to realize that that does not cause abuse. There are other women who are quiet whose husbands aren’t abusing them.
(16:23): Also, some women who were quiet and maybe really calm, they became more irritated or more upset because he was abusive.
They’re thinking, I must be this angry, bitter person, what he’s told her when really she was just trying to protect herself. It’s really interesting the different ways that victims end up perceiving of themselves, perceiving of their life before, and it takes a while to sort it out.
I also think it takes some distance from that person. They’ve been gaslighting you for so long. When you’re away from it, you can kind of process it a little bit better and say, wait a minute.
Yeah, I did become more loud because I realized that this wasn’t safe or I became more quiet because that was the way I was trying to survive. There’s all different ways that women react to it.
Abusers Want to Squish Our Personalities and They Want to Shift Us
Karen (17:17): I totally agree. There is no cookie cutter and with each one of us, how we respond and when they bait us and how we react. Just like all abusers have, it seems like they all read the same manual and they use the same tactics. Every abuser has their own nuance to how they do things. It’s never a cookie cutter because first of all, we’re not all the same. We all are different.
You’re going to see that play out. I purposely use the word abuser. I know there’s all these other terms that we can use. In reality, what we’re dealing with is someone who is an abuser. We all have our own way, it’s our own personality. The point is, abusers want to squish our personalities and they want to shift us. Some abusers really get off on the fact that when you react, when you fight back. They can go, oh, well, look at what you’re doing, and they always point it back.
Anne (18:19): They love that they affected you.
Karen (18:21): Oh yes, for good.
They Love the Ability to be Able to Affect You
Anne (18:22): Oh, I’m so grateful. Thank you. Or, you’re stressing me out. You’re a terrible person. They love the ability to be able to affect you. That’s what they love. They don’t love you. They love the power that like, Ooh, I have the power to be able to affect her.
That’s what they really like because you are around 50 and I’ll be 50 sooner rather than later. It’s feeling very young to me right now, which is exciting. A lot of women think, I can’t do this now. My time has passed. I’m too old.
50 is not old, at whatever age, I’m too old to get to safety. This has been my life for too long. What are some obstacles that you see that women sort of put up for themselves or that other people tell them really quick?
So Many Women Think, It’s too Late For Me
(19:20): I had an abusive boyfriend in high school and he really wanted me to marry him. He told me that if I didn’t marry him right then basically, I will have missed my chance because nobody gets married after 22. He’s like, there’s these three phases.
There’s right after high school, there’s right after everybody gets home from their missions, and then there’s right after another time, there are these three phases. He is like, if you miss this phase, you will never get married. So marry me now. It was in his mind the third phase, and I said, no, thank you.
When I talk about obstacles, so many women just think It’s too late for me. It’s too late for me to have a peaceful life. It’s too late for me to get to safety. Can you talk about that in terms of starting over?
My Life Just Continues to Grow After Starting Over
Karen (20:08): Oh, I would love to because I don’t, with 51, it’s starting over. For the first time in my life, I had a career and it wasn’t an amazing career. I learned all that I was capable of. Mow here I am. Because if you start to put together the date she left when she was 51, and it’s been almost 19 years, I’ll be 70 next month.
My life just continues to grow. I’ve discovered that God loves people and it’s not about our age. I mean, look at all the people he used when they were 80 and older in the scriptures like Moses and Abraham and Sarah and all of these people that he used when they were older.
That means nothing to God because it’s never too late. Even though you don’t want a divorce, it’s never too late to leave, even if you’ve been married 40 years or 50 years, because marriage, you’ll go through hard things, but it’s not supposed to be hard.
Even though You Don’t want a Divorce, Starting Over is Possible… You Will Find Your Way
(21:19): It’s not supposed to be terrifying. That is not what it’s supposed to be. It makes sense that you don’t want a divorce, it’s daunting, no doubt. You think, “What am I going to do?” Depending if you’ve never worked, what’s going to happen, but you will find your way.
I’m not saying it’s easy because many women don’t want a divorce, and leaving is hard. It’s hard. Leaving is terribly hard, but so is the after because you’ve got to learn, who am I? Who you were before may not be who you are now, and that’s okay because maybe you needed some more healing. It’s who you are today.
Who do you want to be today? What do you want to do? That is some of the hardest questions to ask yourself. How can I learn to dream again? Because we’re not limited. We’re not limited by that. Yes, there’s always, we talk about youth and all of that, but honestly, think about what we were like when we were young and how little that we knew based on what we know now.
To me, about to turn 70 age is irrelevant to me. It used to bother me. I didn’t want to tell anybody how old I was, but now it’s like, no, no, I’m not done. I have so much more that God wants me to do. And I mean, I was 68 when I wrote my book. That’s awesome. It doesn’t limit him. It doesn’t have to limit us.
Stages of Deliverance From Abuse: Emotional and Psychological
May 07, 2024
Being delivered from abuse is something that all victims hope for (or pray for). Victims of emotional and psychological abuse most often put their hope in the abuser changing. In my study, I began to see a pattern for deliverance from abuse. Here are the 5 Stages:
1. Things Get So Bad, You’re Daydreaming About Being Delivered From Abuse
Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you realize you need things to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.”
2. You Start to Do Something About It
After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step is to do something about it. This might not fix everything right away, and that’s okay. Trying to do something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger each time. It’s like practicing for a big play, trying different things to see what works best.
3. You Decide to Change Things and Don’t Go Back
This step is when you decide to make a big change and stick with it. It could be deciding not to do something for the person hurting you anymore, or maybe even moving away from them. It’s like crossing a bridge and making sure you can’t go back to the way things were before.
4. It Might Feel Weird for a While
Even after you’ve made the change, it might feel strange for a bit. You’re getting used to a new way of living where you’re in charge. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build a happy life. You might pick up new hobbies, make new friends, or work on your career. Little by little, things start to get better.
5. You Start to Imagine a Happy Life
In the last step, you start to really believe you can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about having a safe home, doing things that make you happy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from just getting by to living a great life, finding out who you are, and doing things you love.
Thinking about a happy life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe.
Getting better after being hurt is a big journey. It’s about needing a change, making that change, sticking with it, getting used to the new way, and finally, dreaming of a happy future. It’s a way for people to get out of a hurtful situation, take control of their lives, find out who they are, and look forward to a peaceful and happy future.
Anne (00:00:00): Coach Janet is here, an incredible coach at BTR. She conducts individual sessions and leads group sessions too. She’s here to discuss deliverance from abuse, which aligns with BTR’s main goal: to free women from abuse in any form, tailored to their needs and situations.
For listeners of the podcast, I’ve uploaded a map on YouTube to illustrate these stages. My personal goal was to liberate myself and my children from my abusive ex. Even after eight years, it felt like he was hunting us almost daily. He constantly messaged me, undermined my parenting, canceled my kids’ medical appointments, and manipulated situations to prevent my kids from taking up sports, just so he wouldn’t have to pay for it.
(00:01:04): I was constantly stressed and traumatized. I got really angry because I thought I was great at setting boundaries. I had blocked him on my phone and email for years, yet I couldn’t figure out how to escape him.
The court and clergy wouldn’t help, and neither did other people. How could I make him go away? At this point, I wasn’t interested in him becoming a better person. I knew that was impossible after trying to get him into therapy and to do the right thing. I realized he wouldn’t be a decent co-parent or magically turn into an appropriate father, and it made me very mad.
https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc
Studying Deliverance from Abuse
(00:02:05): I couldn’t find a way out. I wondered, is deliverance from abuse even possible? The goal in facing betrayal is to heal from the trauma. People often tell me, our clients, and others—not at BTR, we never say this—but others do, things like, “You’ve got to move on with your life,” or “Maybe forgive him,” or “He’s a jerk, so don’t let it bother you.”
They say all sorts of things to women in these situations. I want to stress that it’s traumatic every single time they betray you, over and over. When people ask, “Why can’t you just get over it?” it’s not that simple.
(00:02:56): You divorced eight years ago. In my case, he abused me for eight years post-divorce. They think the abuse happened eight years ago. It happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied and tried to undermine my children.
Why do so many so-called Betrayal Trauma Specialists, not BTR, but those others out there who don’t really understand, think healing from betrayal trauma is just about overcoming triggers? It’s about handling the triggers from the day we discovered he was using porn or from the month we had a tough time, not knowing what was happening, and then realizing he had an affair.
Coach Janet (00:03:40): I think this is a really important question. Many of us have undergone counseling with marriage therapy. Usually, they concentrate on our communication, healing from past events, and improving our communication skills with our husbands or exes.
We need to keep the focus on the kids. This requires a strong co-parenting relationship. The issue is that communicating with them traps us every single time. Allowing ongoing communication gives him endless opportunities to continue trapping and abusing us using whatever we offer.
Why Betrayal Trauma Specialists Fail to Understand Continuous Abuse
Anne (00:04:42) The communication never improves, I wrote and recorded the Living Free Workshop to help women understand the difference between a healthy person’s and an abuser’s view of communication.
They see it as a weapon, thinking, “Okay, I can gather these things and this is how I can use it against her, or to get what I want.” The Living Free Workshop explains all this, helping women understand what’s happening so they can start to gain deliverance from abuse.
Coach Janet (00:05:18): In the Living Free workshop, lesson 26 discussed catching someone lying in real time with full evidence. “You just lied to me. This just happened.” And that gives us a sense of validation. “Oh my goodness, if I just point out these direct points, he’s going to have an aha moment like, ‘Oh, darn it. I own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you.
There was no reason to and maybe I’ll do differently.’ That never happens.” I have a client who thought she could change the outcome if she just communicated and explained it in a way he could understand, almost treating him as if he just didn’t know. If she told him and explained it to him, it would stop.
However, the opposite happened every single time, right from the beginning when they started sharing the kids 50/50 between their houses and things started falling apart at dad’s house.
The Communication Trap with Abusive Ex-Partners
(00:06:39): And then she got her kids back and they’d kind of dump everything that happened at their dad’s house on her. She was headstrong, thinking, “Okay, I can call him and say, ‘Hey, I can help. The mornings are chaotic. Why don’t you set a timer?
Wake up at six so you can get the kids up at six thirty, have the lunches pre-made or teach the kids to make their own if you’re busy getting ready for work.'” She really thought it would help. Guess what? It just got worse. More chaos ensued. Then he stopped waking the kids up entirely. They were late to school almost every day.
If the kids said anything, their dad would start crying and apologize, saying he was trying his best and it was so hard. He’s working so hard and he can’t seem to get anything right. And then the kids would feel bad for saying anything, right? That’s manipulation, and now it’s all on the kids. So, the communication just doesn’t work.
Anne (00:07:51): Living free explains why, so let’s stick to that. It does a really good job at clarifying why they do that and why the opposite happens, and then what to do about it. If you define living free as having nothing to do with communication, court, clergy, or seeking third-party help.
Maybe explaining to the court that he can’t wake the kids up, or make breakfast, or perform basic parenting tasks might show that the kids really shouldn’t be under his care.
Seeking Deliverance from Abuse Through Faith and Scripture
We’re dealing with an abuser who’s essentially a 10-year-old trapped in a 50-year-old’s body, thinking it’s playtime with the kids. But no, it’s parent time. Someone needs to take on the parenting role.
It baffles us when the court seems to think everything looks fine.
(00:08:55): He seems great, but we’re confused. We know that’s not really the case. We started thinking about deliverance from abuse. As a Christian, the concept of deliverance caught my attention, even though BTR isn’t a religious organization. Many women have suffered spiritual abuse at the hands of clergy, often due to what I believe is a misinterpretation of scripture or Christ’s doctrine.
This spiritual abuse has led many women to stop attending church, and I completely understand their decision. They’re abused, why should they continue, right? Whether you’re agnostic, atheist, or follow a different religion, you’re welcome here.
Today, I’ll talk about deliverance from abuse from a Christian perspective because it helped me understand the process of delivering my kids from this perspective. I believe you’ll learn something if you’ll bear with me, but I’m not trying to convert anyone.
(00:09:59): Here we go. We’re going to talk about deliverance from abuse. When I realized the court couldn’t or wouldn’t help me—they probably could but refused—I turned to my clergy. I said, “Hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do about it?” They just stared at me, blinking, clueless about how to help.
They wanted to, but they simply didn’t know how. I started praying, reading the scriptures, and thinking, “Okay, in the scriptures, Christ always delivers.
Anne Blythe”s Personal Journey Toward Deliverance From Abuse
He saves people from their enemies, over and over.” I figured through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I could find deliverance with enough faith. During my study, I read many deliverance books from different religions.
(00:11:01): In my faith, we don’t have a deliverance ministry, unlike other faiths and evangelicals. I’m not very familiar with it because it’s not my faith, but I read a book by a Catholic and an evangelical about casting out devils. Often, when people think about casting out devils, they imagine it as removing them from a person rather than from their presence.
You might not have a devil inside you, but one could be around you. How do you get rid of them? A lot of my study focused on this. I’ve written down all my studies at the end of “Living Free” for a visual of those scriptures if you’re interested.
So, there’s the casting out devils part and the deliverance part. I think, one of the best stories of deliverance is Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt.
(00:11:59): So, I actually went to Egypt and Jerusalem because I wanted to study deliverance from abuse and figure it out. Within six months of returning from Jerusalem, I and my children were delivered. My ex-husband gave up custody and the final say over my kids.
Now, they don’t have to go with him at all if they don’t want to. The parenting time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday at six, with no midweek visits and only two weeks in the summer. They only have to spend two holidays with him the entire year.
The Israelites’ Story as a Metaphor for Abuse Survivors
I think I could’ve gotten even less. I mean, I could’ve made him take less, but I needed a break. I included that. My oldest son hardly goes anymore.
(00:12:51): I think my other kids will probably visit less and less over the years. Last year, they only went for Christmas and didn’t even stay the whole time. They ended up coming home early, and that’s possible because we’ve been delivered. We can do whatever we want now, which is pretty exciting.
I have this map of the children of Israel delivering themselves, and I want to discuss some of it. Coach Janet, you can see this. Number one is where they were. When visiting Jerusalem, I was surprised. I went on the Nile, and it’s this huge river.
I’m just going to make up numbers here, but let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile, you have the most luscious, beautiful farmland where they can grow a ton of stuff because the water’s right there, and then suddenly, it turns into a very scary arid desert.
(00:13:52): If you look at this map where the children of Israel are, oppressed under Ramseys’ rule, they’re actually in that lush delta. It’s prime farmland with plenty of water. They’re not living in a hole; they’ve been here for hundreds of years, born and raised without knowing anything else.
These Israelites have never been to the Promised Land. They don’t know what it looks like; they know nothing about it. Even though they’re enslaved and oppressed, it’s all they’ve ever known. They’re not exactly hungry; there’s plenty of food and shelter.
Understanding Deliverance from Abuse Through the Lens of the Israelites and Moses
The environment isn’t bad for them. When Moses comes, saying he’s going to try to deliver them, he finds a people who haven’t seen anything else but their current condition. I won’t dive into how Moses gets to this point, but when he decides to deliver them, he realizes that they don’t even know what they’re missing.
(00:15:01): The plagues, the seven plagues. He sends frogs and fire from the sky, turns an island into blood, and all that. In my opinion, it was partly to make Ramseys let them go, but I also think it was for them. If it hadn’t gotten really bad, I don’t think they would’ve wanted to leave because they didn’t know anything else. And it probably seemed pretty scary to them.
They most likely didn’t want to be oppressed anymore, but maybe they were thinking, “Can’t he just be nicer to us? Maybe we can work it out so we only have to work 10 hours a day instead of 16.” I wonder if they were trying to negotiate with Ramseys in their minds, like, “Moses, why are we going? Maybe we can work this out.”
They had to go through those plagues too. And I think for all abuse victims, there’s a stage where things get so bad that they know they have to do something.
I’d call that the first phase of deliverance from abuse where they don’t want to do something; they’re hoping something will work out, but maybe they feel like they have to. Then, in this phase, they try pornography, addiction, recovery. How many of your clients have tried some kind of recovery program or couple therapy or something like that?
Insights from a Coaching Session
Coach Janet (00:16:29): I can’t think of one client that the spouse hasn’t tried something either anger management, sex addiction, csat, couples therapy or all of the above.
Anne (00:16:43): And why do they do that? Because they don’t know anything else. Because they’re afraid. They want Ramseys to be a little nicer. Maybe they want to work fewer hours, or they want better food. Maybe they think with a few concessions, we can live together in peace.
Coach Janet (00:17:00): The land holds goodness. This is the man they’ve built a family with; they love him. He isn’t horrible all the time because they’re still in the fog of abuse. They haven’t even had the chance to feel enough relief to realize the extent of the abuse.
Anne (00:17:21): And they also think there’s some good, rather than realizing the good is also bad, which living free explains really well. In my opinion, that was just as much for them as it was for Ramsey. Finally, Ramsey says, “Okay, I’ll let you go.” Then, they have to pack up all their stuff. This, I think, represents separation.
They have to pack their entire lives into carts. They’ve never been anywhere else, they don’t know anything else, and they have to load it onto carts and such. And when you think about Ramsey, he’s like, “Wait, no, no, no, you can’t take all those animals and you can’t take this cart, but maybe you can take this.”
There’s going to be a point where they’re trying to figure out who takes what as they start making their way out of Egypt. Now, I want to show you something.
Navigating the Exodus: A Journey of Survival
(00:18:12): Okay, can you see my cursor? Yes. Alright, here’s the delta, and this right here is the promised land on this side of Jerusalem. They should’ve just walked straight across this Upper Sinai Peninsula and come right over here. That’s not the path they took. Instead, they start heading down here, and at some point, Pharaoh changes his mind, saying, “Never mind, I want you back.”
I think when you first move out before you’re divorced, your trying to figure out your escape, right? You’re wondering, “Will I manage to get a divorce?” Many women in our community face very long, difficult divorces where they desperately want to leave but can’t.
There are women who attempt to start the divorce process, then don’t go through with it, move back in, and later realize they indeed need to move out.
(00:19:13): Women find ways to stay permanently separated, and it’s actually fine because they’ve established solid boundaries. There are many different scenarios. In some cases, through setting boundaries and emotional separation, and by living freely, he might actually change to the point where living with him becomes possible.
This isn’t through a couple’s program, pornography addiction recovery, or anything formal. It’s by you setting boundaries for your own safety, and then he might choose to change. I made all this up, so I’m going to stop saying “I think” and just say, this is what happens.
Divorce and The Red Sea Crossing Analogy: Deliverance from Abuse
This is my interpretation of deliverance. But when they get to the Red Sea and find themselves stuck with Pharaoh after them, it’s a moment of truth.
(00:20:14): They can’t go back. Going back means risking enslavement or oppression again. He’s right behind them. This period, I believe, signifies a kind of divorce. Interestingly, as the Red Sea parts, some women manage to cross, permanently separating them from him unless they choose to remarry.
Looking at this map, I find it fascinating that they chose to cross here rather than taking a seemingly easier route across the Sinai Peninsula. I think the reason is that once they crossed the Red Sea and the waters fell back, returning became impossible. Without GPS or a clear map to the Promised Land—assuming they didn’t have one—they couldn’t simply turn back and recross the sea.
(00:21:16): When that divorce happens and it’s done, I don’t know any woman, at least in our community, who’s like, “I think I want to marry him again.” I think they feel that in some ways, like, “Oh, it’d be nice not to have my kids go back and forth. It’d be nice not to have so many financial problems.
It’d be nice not to worry about this stuff.” I don’t think they ever believe, deep down, “I think I made the wrong decision.” They regret the consequences. The consequences are tough, but they don’t actually regret divorcing him.
Delivering Yourself from Abuse by Picking Up Your Stuff
Coach Janet (00:21:55): Yes, I agree. When they’re still stuck and haven’t crossed the water, many of my clients have kicked him out. He’ll go to a program, learn something, and then she’ll let him back in, only to kick him out again.
Eventually, he’ll find a couple’s therapist. “We have kids together. We need to communicate effectively to be good,” they say. And they’re facing this court process, filled with fear, thinking, “Oh my goodness, I have no choice.
I must do this.” They try couples therapy, but often it doesn’t work, or the court process is too difficult. I have client who was told she had evidence that he wasn’t a good person or father and that she would get full custody.
However, in court, it didn’t go as planned because her now ex-husband was so smooth, charming, and could afford the perfect lawyer, leading her to lose. Many clients struggle to make it to the other side.
Anne (00:23:19): The water has topped the bottom of the Red Sea for thousands of years; it’s not flat. No one has ever driven or walked across it, so expect lots of rocks and mud. Even if the sea parts and you see a way forward, even if you’re about to get divorced, you still have to pick up all your stuff and start trekking through literal mud to reach the other side. And it’s scary.
You’re constantly fearing that the water could crash down on you and kill you. The court could crush you while you’re waist-deep in mud. We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea through the mud, but it might have taken days.
Overcoming Fear and Finding Freedom
Thankfully, the Lord kept the Egyptians at bay with a pillar of fire, preventing them from advancing. Before women make that crossing, they’re at a point where they’re thinking, “I don’t want to go through that mud.” Imagine being an Israelite, staring at all the mud and the looming threat of the water crashing down on you at any moment.
My guess is, although it’s not specified in the scriptures, some people might have proceeded simply because Pharaoh’s forces were behind them, leaving them no choice. However, I’m guessing there were also those who really didn’t want to do it.
Coach Janet (00:24:40): And they didn’t know what was on the other side
Anne (00:24:43): Even if they were going to survive getting through it. I mean, we know so many women in our community who don’t know if they’re going to even survive divorce
Coach Janet (00:24:52): And they don’t know what’s on the other side. They’ve never tasted freedom and can’t imagine what that land looks like. They might freeze at the Red Sea, see the parted waters, and still struggle to take those steps through the mud.
Anne (00:25:09): Well, a lot of people say, “I wish someone would save me.” They pray all the time, kneeling at their beds, saying, “God, save me. Please, save me.” And God’s like, “I want to save you. Pick up your stuff, get out of the house, start walking across the mud.” They think, “I don’t want to get my feet dirty.” I mean, it’s more intense than that, but basically, they don’t want to step in. They might say, “No, I don’t want to do that.
Navigating the Challenge
I don’t want to move. I don’t want to give up my lifestyle.” For those of us who were young moms, we generally have 18 Christmases with our kids before they turn 18. Those of us who are divorced end up with just nine. Thoughts like that are so heartbreaking. We didn’t sign up to be a mom and only have nine Christmases with our kids before they move out.
Coach Janet (00:26:02): This analogy compares the Israelites approaching the Red Sea, uncertain of what will happen next. Their lives had to worsen to the point where it propelled them to conquer their fear. As they watched the waters part, they faced the daunting task of trudging through with all their possessions, worried the water might collapse on them.
They had no idea what awaited on the other side or if their enemies might also cross. This scenario closely mirrors our clients’ experiences. Often, it’s the gift of hitting rock bottom that leaves no choice but to pick up their bags, pack, and leave, despite not knowing what lies ahead or how difficult passing through those waters will be.
Anne (00:27:10): Yeah, it’s really hard. We talked about my belief that they passed here so they couldn’t go back. Now, in our lives, unfortunately, water doesn’t fall on them and kill them. We go through divorce, and they’re still chasing us. That’s so frustrating because no domestic violence shelter prepares you for that.
All domestic violence shelters want to do is help you do two things: get a protective order and get divorced, if they have services available for you. A protective order does squat if you need to co-parent, making things very difficult. So, let’s talk about the other side.
Post-Divorce Struggles and Seeking Safety
Then they get to the other side and start this 40-year wilderness journey, wandering around. In this first part, they’re getting manna from heaven. They don’t know where their resources will come from. Some of them are like, “Why don’t we just go back?”
(00:28:09): Egypt had so many resources, and it’s maddening that we’re worse off now than before. We have no food. We’re not being oppressed in the traditional sense, but our situation still oppresses us. Unlike the Israelites, Pharaoh actually makes it across the river and continues to pursue us.
We wander around. This period feels like it’s post-divorce. You don’t really want to go back, but you miss the resources, the food, the shelter, and the comfortable house. Now, we’re living in a tent in the middle of nowhere. We wandered around in the wilderness for a while. When I went to Jerusalem and looked out the bus window, there were actual dirt devils everywhere.
(00:29:07): I was like, “What?” Some were bigger than others, but following that pillar by day to figure out where to go, I thought, “Oh, I can totally see this happening.” Fascinating to me.
And it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it hit a hundred degrees. It was so hot that the shade shielding them from the sun felt like tiny miracles. In my faith, we call them tender mercies as they received manna. Women feared they wouldn’t be able to eat or live.
The Emotional Journey of Post-Abuse Recovery
Let’s talk about that. It amazes me that they’re okay. Going through really hard times, I remember only wanting maybe a pair of shoes when I was in that stage. Speaking of that stage, it’s surprising how most women manage to have enough to eat and a roof over their heads, despite it being very tough.
Coach Janet (00:30:19): All the clients I can think of feel euphoric at this phase because they’ve survived the divorce. The waters didn’t crash down on them. At the beginning, their exes are almost like hurt puppies whimpering, “I can’t believe you left, come back.”
And the real post-divorce abuse hasn’t really started in full swing. For the first time in however many decades, they can breathe. They’ve built a safe home for themselves and their kids; they have food, shelter, and water. It’s like living for the first time because they can’t even remember life before their husband.
There was so much abuse that this little window feels like a reprieve before the storms start coming. Have you heard any clients say things like that?
Anne (00:31:33): I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again or at this stage, something like I went outside and I could see color. Have you heard that?
Coach Janet (00:31:45): That they can taste food or they sit there for hours like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live.
Seeking Answers at Mount Nebo: How to Gain Deliverance from Abuse
Anne (00:32:00): And I think they’re amazed because they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need, even if it’s not what they want, and their lifestyles may have drastically changed.
They’re not starving. Generally, they might not eat the same foods as before or might eat something they don’t love, but living on rice and beans keeps them from starving.
It feels really good at first. Then, after a while, they think, “Wait a minute. Is this it? Will I live on rice and beans for the rest of my life? Will I deal with this man forever?”
During this 40-year wilderness phase, women also try to figure out their careers and how they’re going to work, leading to the final stage of deliverance from abuse, wondering how he will finally leave them alone.
(00:33:02): I wandered around for a while and visited Mount Nebo, where the Israelites first laid eyes on the promised land, a sight they had never seen before. Mount Nebo sits right here, overlooking the promised land across the Dead Sea. That reminds me of the Great Salt Lake near my home in Utah, my own topography.
Being in Jerusalem felt very weird, but I quickly felt at home, incredibly so. The terrain resembles Utah’s, with Utah Lake and what we call the Jordan River flowing into the Great Salt Lake, which doesn’t drain. Hence, the Great Salt Lake is much like the Dead Sea, extremely salty, where you can easily float. It’s just the same. Then I headed to Petra, reminiscent of Zion National Park, a favorite spot for many of us.
Seeking a Promised Future
(00:33:54): It was weird. I felt like, “Oh my word, I’m an Israelite. I feel at home here.” The place was very desert-like and kind of cool. Okay, I’m up on Mount Nebo. I’ll share a maybe not-so-funny story. While there, “I’m going to talk to Moses.
I grabbed my scriptures, and on the tour I was on, I was like, “Leave me alone. I don’t want to talk to any of you. I’m going off by myself.” And they were like, “She’s weird. This lady is cray cray town.” I’m like, “I’ll be back, and don’t anyone look for me.”
I tried to find a place where I could pray and talk to Moses. By the way, I’ve never talked to Moses before, this wasn’t something I regularly did, but I thought, “I’m trying to deliver women out of abuse.”
(00:34:41): Moses knows about this. I’m going to chat with him, fumbling around these ancient ruins where I probably shouldn’t be. I’m trying to find a place to kneel but just can’t find the right spot. I end up sitting on these 3000-year-old stones, likely part of a fence, where I’m pretty sure I shouldn’t be sitting.
And there I am, praying, hoping Moses will come and talk to me while I read the scripture. I thought he’d say something, but when I open the scriptures, they’re not even remotely related. I’m like, what’s he trying to say? No, it’s not working. No, I didn’t talk to Moses, just so you know. It didn’t turn out that way.
Navigating the Promised Land
(00:35:31): As I looked off at the promised Land at that time in my life, I thought I now knew what I wanted my life to be. I believed I had this miraculous decree, what I thought would be best for my kids and me, giving me the final say.
He couldn’t have any say in what the kids did or didn’t have to go with him where I didn’t have to deal with him at all. I stood on man’s evil, looking out there, thinking I couldn’t get there.
Now, the reason why the Israelites couldn’t get there was that it was full of other people, and they needed to kill all those people in the Bible to get rid of them so they could enter the promised land, which seems ethically wrong since they hadn’t been there for 400 years.
(00:36:22): You know what I mean? Parts of the Bible just don’t make sense to me. Anyway, in our case, we can’t kill him. That’s exactly what they were planning: to kill them and then live the life they wanted. Now, I’m not proposing murder.
Listeners, please don’t think that’s what I’m suggesting. I know we’ve all thought that if he just got hit by a bus, everything would be okay. My kids are safe now, alright, but why is he still blocking me from the promised land, to stick with this metaphor?
What do you think frustrates women the most in this situation when they can see the solution? They know what it should look like. They know how to set boundaries, but they can’t achieve it.
Strategies for Peace and Resilience
Coach Janet (00:37:09): I think about a client I’m considering cutting ties with; communication was her biggest challenge. Her court experience, where they portrayed her as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him, fueled a mix of fears. She feared him and what he had put her through.
She constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, felt she had to hold his hand through the parenting process, and remind him about early out times, even during his parenting time. Essentially, he was living rent-free in her brain.
To sever that cord, she doesn’t have to communicate with him. In their case, they’re using Our Family Wizard. You message when you’re dropping the kids off, and that’s it. Convincing her that no other communication would lead to anything positive was a huge struggle.
Anne (00:38:30): I developed the message workshop’s tools from years of working with clients. First, you learn the general strategies and specific phrases that work, although applying them can be tough. Let’s turn back to this map. Here, discussing divorce, you understand there’s no going back.
Another issue is that many women, justifiably, fear the trauma from court experiences, worrying they’ll be targeted again, though not always. Chronic litigators exist. In fact, Carmen from the message workshop, who I helped, had been divorced for 10 years and her ex had dragged her to court for custody five times.
Finding Liberation
(00:39:29): She hit rock bottom and reached out to me for help. Recently, she texted me, saying, “Anne, you’ll never believe it. I think I’m out. I’ve tried everything—communication, all sorts of things. Nothing worked for 10 years. Since I started doing this, he hasn’t messaged me.
I don’t know what’s going to happen with this case. It’s not moving forward; nothing’s happening.” And I’m thinking, “Really? She thinks she’s done. Give it a minute. We’ll see. I mean, I know these methods work, right? I’m never quite sure when it’s truly over. In my case, I knew it was over when he signed the paper, and I signed it.
I knew I’d been delivered.” And some women feel the same. They’re like, “He moved to Texas, and I knew I had deliverance from abuse.”
(00:40:19): Instances like that happen. At other times, they just stop writing, leaving you wondering, “Well, he hasn’t moved, what’s going on?” It might take a minute to figure out, but he really has.
He’s checked out; he’s done. I want women to think about this point: crossing this “red sea” means you’re not going back to court because court is expensive. If you don’t initiate it, which we never recommend any victim do after the divorce is over, it’s very unlikely he’ll take you back to court.
Some people do, but for the majority, it’s pretty rare. They want to threaten you with it, constantly. If you just say, “Okay, no problem, I have an attorney on retainer,” and let them know, that’s one of the strategies we cover in the message workshop.
Strategies for Living Free: How to get Deliverance From Abuse
(00:41:10): They’re like, “I’m supposed to scare you. This isn’t scaring you.” Once you realize court is over and there’s no going back, starting to offload that fear, which we discuss in Living Free, really helps. When you reach this point, you can look at it and see it.
Sure, some people might fear returning to court, and it could happen, right? There are no guarantees, although it’s unlikely. Seeing that and cutting off communication kind of sends the message to clear out the promised land because it turns into scorched earth. I now understand that I’ll never have a normal relationship with him. And it’s not because I can’t have a normal relationship; it’s because he’s incapable of having one.
(00:42:06): And once you finally understand that’s not an option, I’ll stop thinking this conversation will be the one where he gets it. In this case, we’ll say our relationship is dead. You can’t have a relationship with someone incapable of doing it.
Once you reach that point, once you kill the relationship in your own mind and body and think, I can’t communicate with him like I would with a normal person, you’ll know your deliverance from abuse is close.
Coach Janet (00:42:46): I thought about stopping the communication and trying to explain. I have a client who wasn’t afraid, but she couldn’t let go of wanting justice. She wanted to show him directly how he’s affecting the kids and make him take responsibility.
Then she realized he was even using that against her. It was almost like he purposely abused the kids to get to her. There’s no justice. She decided to let it go.
The Temptation to Argue and Communicate with Abusers
Anne (00:43:35): What you’re looking for is deliverance from abuse. It’s impossible to move on when you’re being abused, but in order to be deliverance from the abuse, justice is a trap.
(00:43:51): Truth and communication are traps. They’ll use justice as a weapon against you. They’ll keep acting just to prevent you from getting justice, forcing you to keep coming back. Letting go frees us. In my case, I did care about justice, but living the life I wanted mattered more.
My ex, being an attorney, blocked that life for me. I expected a certain lifestyle, thinking I could take yearly trips or buy new shoes, but that didn’t happen.
(00:44:52): Part of it was letting go, which then enabled my delivery. I don’t want women to think we’re asking them to just move on, but rather, would you like deliverance from abuse? I invite you, as Christ would, as your savior.
He’d say, as your savior and deliverer, do you want to be delivered? And we’d say yes. Then he’d ask, do you trust me more than Satan? Hopefully, we’d say yes. Christ doesn’t even let evil spirits speak in the scriptures. It says he doesn’t allow them to speak.
Finding Deliverance From Abuse
He doesn’t want to engage with these guys either. He’s not thinking, oh, maybe if I talk to him, I can help him. No. In fact, I believe it’s either the second or third temptation of Christ, where they’re on the building and he’s like, Satan, throw yourself off the building.
(00:46:00): I truly believe the temptation was more about communication than throwing yourself off a building. After all, no one finds the idea of throwing themselves off a building tempting. You know what is tempting? Arguing with someone about how absurd it is for them to suggest you throw yourself off a building.
If it were me facing Satan, I’d be like, “Satan, what’s wrong with you? Why would you even suggest I throw myself off a building? And Christ could do that and win the argument because it’s probably the stupidest temptation in the universe.
It’s not tempting at all. He doesn’t get trapped by the real temptation, which is the temptation to argue. Instead, he says, “Get lost.” There’s no reasoning with Satan, and throughout the scriptures, it’s all about separating yourself from the wicked. I feel like Christ is inviting us to be delivered.
That’s what I’ve included in “Living Free” and the message workshop. To achieve it, he’s given us some guidelines, and if we follow his teachings, he will deliver us.
It will take a lot of effort. I mean, even if he saves us, we still have to walk through the mud and cross the desert. There’s no deliverance from abuse story where God just picks them up with a helicopter or something.
Anne (00:47:31): Even though he saves them, he drops them off. There are miracles, like manna being a miracle and parting the Red Sea.
From Mount Nebo to Seeking Justice
Let’s look at one of your clients who’s at this point. They’re on Mount Nebo, looking down, seeing it but not doing it.
They keep thinking, “I didn’t do it,” because they’re either giving themselves reasons or maybe they’re giving you a reason why they didn’t. I once asked someone, which I think came off as offensive because I didn’t mean to blame the victim, “I don’t care why you did it, when will you use these tools?”
She couldn’t give me an answer at that moment. I wasn’t trying to call her out; I genuinely wanted to help her. What can we say to victims struggling to apply it?
Coach Janet (00:48:29): Thinking of a client and three things sets off pure anger for the situation where she wants to communicate her anger and fear. If she doesn’t reach out, will he take her back to court, or could she could get in trouble.
And then there’s the justice piece, feeling so worn out from the unending abuse, like being tumbled by waves, coming up for air only for another wave to hit. The exhaustion from trying to communicate, whether through Our Family Wizard or some other way, overwhelms her.
She realizes it doesn’t matter the reason, because every form of communication and every “why” leads to a different trap. End of story. Close the box, put it down, and walk away.
Anne (00:49:57): Walking away is really hard because, first, you should feel angry. We all should. If we didn’t, what would we be, robots? That’d be weird. I mean, some people don’t feel angry, and that’s okay. If you don’t, you’re not weird. Shine on, my friends.
The Path to Healing
Coach Janet (00:50:13): There’s plenty of anger.
Anne (00:50:14): Shine on if you’re not feeling angry. Mostly, it’d be weird not to feel angry. You should be angry, seek justice, and fear is natural. These people are dangerous; they’ve hurt you and your family. Don’t let those feelings prevent your recovery.
It’s a trap that can hinder your healing. Yet, you can be angry, seek justice, and feel afraid, and it’s thrilling. Use the tools from the Living Free and message workshops to heal. Share your feelings with a safe coach, like a BTR coach, or with other women in BTR group sessions.
(00:51:13): You can share them with your mom, your sister, or any other safe people in your life. You can also share them with God. The Living Free and message workshops focus on deliverance from abuse, but they don’t tell you to let go, move on, or stop giving away your power, or all that stupid stuff everyone suggests. I say, hold onto your anger.
It’ll serve you well. Yes, you should seek justice, and I promise, you’ll get it, and it’ll be thrilling and loved by everyone. I’ll be like, “Yes, justice. I love justice.” The cool part is, if you do the exercises, have you heard about the power stance?
It’s supposed to make you feel better. Similarly, using the tools makes a difference. At first, I was so mad and didn’t want to do it.
(00:52:02): There were so many of those tools that I thought, “What? I’m supposed to write this? This is ridiculous. This is stupid. I don’t want to do this.” But I did it, I pushed send, and thought, “I don’t want to do this.” Yet, I kept doing it. Eventually, it started becoming kind of fun.
Strategies for True Deliverance from Abuse
It wasn’t because I was trying to become less angry. I became less afraid, not because I was trying to, but because I was starting to actually live free since I wasn’t being abused anymore. The only way to get justice, the only way not to be angry all the time, and the only way not to be afraid is if you’re not being abused.
It’s the only way out. You can’t continue to be abused and not be afraid. It just doesn’t work like that.
Coach Janet (00:53:17): And finding that peace where you’re not being abused, you’ve stopped putting yourself in harm’s way, took my client some time.
She saw the benefits, but when she started using strategic messaging, he just shifted tactics to attack her from a different angle. You have to play it from all angles. She struggled a bit before she could finally walk away.
Anne (00:54:08): And for good reason, they’re purposefully setting traps to catch you. It’s not your fault if you think, “Oh, I’ve stepped in the trap again.” You’re just walking like a normal person. Then, you begin to identify the traps. However, at no point is it your fault. You shouldn’t have to look out for traps. It’s entirely his fault.
(00:54:31): When you sign up for Living Free and join the Message workshop, don’t expect to be perfect. I once thought I nailed it until I actually developed the workshop and started working with other women. Looking back at my messages, I realized I missed the mark multiple times.
Lessons from the Living Free Workshop
Now, after helping other women for a long time, I’ve become really good at it. But it’s a skill you need to learn, and it’s not always fair. It’s like surviving a plane crash in the mountains.
It’s not your fault, but if you don’t figure out how to find water and make your way down to a city, you’re going to die, regardless of fault. Wanting to be saved, regardless of whether it’s your fault, isn’t your fault at all.
(00:55:27): You need to learn these skills to achieve deliverance form abuse. From a faith perspective, these skills work universally and aren’t spiritually based. In creating the living free and message workshop, I made them secular so everyone would feel comfortable, which is crucial since many women have experienced spiritual abuse.
I decided to remove any spiritual bias. Personally, I believe these principles, which I discovered in the scriptures through prayer and study, including casting out devils and deliverance from abuse, will have an extra special effect for women because of Jesus’s kindness, mercy, justice, and love.
I’ve been delivered using these principles and have seen other women find deliverance from abuse too, which truly makes me happy. They were always there; it’s just that men wrote the scriptures and interpreted them. Often, they tell women only to love, serve, and forgive.
No, we’re going to read the scriptures ourselves and take from them what we will.
Coach Janet (00:57:01): Absolutely. And we must stay kind to ourselves as we process with our clients, as they work through messages, trip, fall, and get stuck in traps. We should see these as learning experiences. Each time, I learn not to repeat the same mistake and just keep going.
Support from BTR Coaches
Anne (00:57:25): And I think too, there’s nothing like a learning experience to realize, “Oh, he’s really wicked. He’s truly evil. This is really scary.” That’s the other cool thing about being kind to him in the message workshop.
(00:57:45): There’s nothing mean or literally nothing in there. It’s how Christ teaches us to deliver ourselves. Christ does it this way. You can find examples of Him doing this throughout the scripture, which is really cool. This is also why we have the best coaches at BTR.
They’re amazing. They validate women who’ve been victimized, they’re kind and gentle, and they help women meet them where they are. They navigate women safely through experiences that aren’t their fault. And I appreciate the listeners.
I’m not a coach. I’d probably just say, “Stop doing that. Stop. Do you want to get deliverance from abuse or not?”
Coach Janet (00:58:34): Get over here right now.
Anne (00:58:36): And they’re like, oh, wow, Ann, she’s intense. I am a little bit intense, but I really, really want you have deliverance from abuse. Is that so bad? That’s my fault that I want that.
Coach Janet (00:58:49): No, that’s your gift. You’re right where you need to be, right? Doing what you need to be doing.
Anne (00:58:56): Yes, I’m so grateful for the BTR coaches. They can really help women apply these concepts in a gentle way that benefits everyone. So, thank you, Coach Janet, for being here as I pontificated about the stages of deliverance from abuse. Yeah so many women go through this and desperately need support, which is why we have our daily, online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group.
The Message Workshop Strategies
Coach Janet (00:59:14): Thank you for having me on and discussing this. I love the map and how you walked us through the deliverance from abuse process, and the Living Free workshop benefits any woman at any stage. If she’s overwhelmed in the fog of abuse but wants to escape, Living Free makes it so simple.
The lessons are very short, like your best friend holding your hand and guiding you through each step. You can rewatch it if you feel like you missed a concept. Just go back, watch it again, print out the workbook, and follow all the steps at your own pace. It really simplifies the process, and I wish I’d had it at the beginning of my divorce.
Anne (01:00:10): These strategies work if you’ve decided, “I don’t want to get divorced, but I also don’t want to be abused.” They’re a safety strategy for any woman at any stage. These strategies and tools work with both Living Free and the Message Workshop. The Message Workshop specifically targets separated women using Family Wizard. However, the principles still apply if you’re living in the same house.
If you grasp the fundamental strategies and tools, you can apply them in your communication. I aimed to make them simple because everything about abuse is overwhelming.
I believe it’s the only way out, whether you stay married or divorce, at any stage. Thank you. Coach Janet is incredible. She’s available for individual sessions, and she facilitates our daily group sessions. We’d love to see you in a session today.
Coach Janet (01:01:39): Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night.
Is Forgiveness Helpful for Victims of Betrayal?
Apr 30, 2024
Forgiveness is a polarizing topic for victims of intimate betrayal. But can it provide relief & healing? Dr. Debi Silber is on the podcast.
Healing From Betrayal Trauma with Dr. Debi Silber
Apr 23, 2024
Healing from betrayal trauma is absolutely possible. Dr. Debi Silber discusses the five steps to healing and more on this episode.
How Long Does It Take To Heal From Emotional Abuse?
Apr 16, 2024
Recovering from your husband's emotional abuse is a journey. There are strategies to speed healing. Here are 3 things to consider.
Teaching Your Children Healthy Sexuality – The Best Resource
Apr 09, 2024
You can teach children healthy sexuality. Here are some quality resources to help make sure your kids are empowered to make healthy choices about sex when the time is right.
How to Talk To Your Kids About Sex
Apr 02, 2024
The Sex Talk can be a good experience for both parents and children. Dina Alexander shares tips, myths, and how-to's.
When His Sexual Fantasy Signals Abusive Control
Mar 26, 2024
When fantasizing is about control, it will be harmful to any relationship. Discover the effects of your husband's sexual fantasies and why they're hurting you.
Should I Divorce My Husband for Emotional Abuse? Can I?
Mar 19, 2024
A victims shares how she grappled with religious traditions, logistics, to determine if she wanted to divorce her abusive husband, and if so how?
My Husband Says I’m the Problem. Is He Right?
Mar 12, 2024
J.R. spent nearly a decade believing that she was the problem in the marriage. Learning about emotional abuse helped her establish safety boundaries.
Where Can I Find Resources to Stop Human Trafficking?
Mar 05, 2024
Are you ready to help stop human trafficking? Melea Stephens from NCOSE shares how you can participate in advocacy without having to leave home.
How to Set Boundaries In An Emotionally Abusive Relationship
Feb 27, 2024
If you're wondering how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship, you are NOT alone. Elizabeth continues her story.
Is the Cycle of Abuse a Myth?
Feb 20, 2024
What if you could spot a hidden emotional abuse right away? Elizabeth courageously shares her story to help you identify the cycle of abuse.
Here Are My Emotions in the Aftermath of Abuse
Feb 13, 2024
Excitement, fear, frustration, self-loathing - Vicki shares the torrent of emotions she's experienced in the aftermath of her abusive marriage.
This is How You Know It’s Time to Leave
Feb 06, 2024
Vicki shares her courageous journey leaving an abusive marriage, including the challenges, interventions, and empowering choices that led her to safety.
Walking Away After 30 Years of Narcissistic Abuse
Jan 30, 2024
Vicki reveals the devastating truth of living 30 years of narcissistic abuse, detailing a family's nightmare filled with manipulation, control, and silent suffering.
New Meditations: Are You Ready to Start Healing?
Jan 23, 2024
Sammy shares her experience taking the BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop as a woman of faith, finding healing and hope after betrayal trauma and emotional abuse.
Find Peace & Calm With Our New BTR Meditations
Jan 16, 2024
You deserve peace, calm, and stillness. Lily shares how The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop has helped her find peace despite outer chaos.
Brand New Meditations For Betrayal & Abuse Victims
Jan 09, 2024
Pat shares how BTR.ORG's brand new Meditation Workshop has helped her find healing and empowerment after betrayal and emotional abuse.
Male Entitlement: 7 Startling Reasons Men Feel Entitled to Women’s Bodies
Jan 02, 2024
What causes male entitlement to women's bodies? Read the layered and complex reasons why some men haven't figured out that women are autonomous individuals.
“Consent” Is Harming Us: What You Need to Know
Dec 26, 2023
The term consent is dangerous. Rachel Moran shares her expertise and offers hope in correct language that protects sexual autonomy.
Everything You Need To Know About Gaslighting
Dec 19, 2023
Uncover the secrets of gaslighting as Dr. Robin Stern and Anne explore emotional abuse, exposing manipulation tactics and offering insights for victims.
I Think My Husband Is Gaslighting Me
Dec 12, 2023
Gaslighting expert, Dr. Robin Stern, shares her expertise on the podcast - including detailing the three types of gaslighters.
Navigating Pregnancy When You’re In Trauma
Dec 05, 2023
Tune in with Anne and Paige as they explore the role of nutrition and therapeutic activities for women experiencing pregnancy in trauma and abuse.
Can Herbal Medicine Help Betrayal Trauma Symptoms?
Nov 28, 2023
Betrayal trauma and abuse victims seek healing and peace from the symptoms of betrayal trauma and abuse. Paige is discussing the benefits of herbal medicines.
Is My Husband Enmeshed With His Mother?
Nov 21, 2023
Enmeshment is a concept that can be difficult to understand, especially in the context of betrayal trauma and abuse. Paige is discussing enmeshment.
Armchair Pathology: What YOU Need to Know
Nov 14, 2023
What is "Armchair Pathology" and how is it harming betrayal trauma victims? Paige is on The BTR.ORG Podcast. Tune in to find out.
Are You Ready to Experience Post-Traumatic Growth?
Nov 07, 2023
Post-traumatic growth may feel like a dream that's out of reach if you've been a victim of betrayal trauma and emotional and psychological abuse. But Simona Nicolais' research findings show us that post-traumatic growth is absolutely attainable for victims.
My Husband Lies About Small Things – I’m Worried
Oct 31, 2023
Does your husband tell lies about small things? That behavior can be a HUGE red flag and a sign of deeper issues. Today, Virginia joins Anne on the podcast to dive deep into the topic of emotional abuse, exploring its signs.
What You Need to Know About Emotional And Psychological Abuse
Oct 24, 2023
Is your marriage just hard, as marriage can sometimes be? Or are you experiencing emotional and psychological abuse? Virginia shares her story on the podcast with Anne.
How To Say No, And When To Say Yes
Oct 17, 2023
Anne's daughter Penny is on the podcast, sharing her philosophy on how to say no and when to say yes.
Can I Be a Peacemaker if My Husband is Abusive?
Oct 10, 2023
Creating peace in an abusive dynamic is often tasked to victims. Anne talks about strategies women can use in the short-term to experience respite from chaos.
We Want You To Be Safe – And Abusers HATE That!
Oct 03, 2023
BTR is pro-safety - and sometimes that means divorce. And abusers? They hate that. Anne is going over some negative reviews from abusive men. Tune in.
If Something Feels Off, It Probably Is Off
Sep 26, 2023
Angela Craig and Tausha Haight were victims of abusive husbands. Anne sheds light on psychological and emotional abuse.
Anne uses the Bible to share her feelings regarding how people in positions of authority should help ease the suffering victims of betrayal and abuse.
Healing Words of Affirmation & Love
Sep 12, 2023
Ready to practice radical self-compassion? Dr. Stephanie Powell is back on the podcast sharing professional experience and empowering sentiments.
What Sex Trafficking Really Looks Like
Sep 05, 2023
Are you a victim of sex trafficking? Dr. Stephanie Powell from NCOSE is on the BTR.ORG Podcast defining sex trafficking - listen now.
3 Subtle Ways Misogyny Creeps Into Our Minds
Aug 29, 2023
Misogyny thrives in societies where it's allowed to be hidden and covert. And we all know that misogyny fuels abuse. Dr. Jessica Taylor is back on the podcast.
Why is My Abusive Ex Fighting So Hard in Court?
Aug 22, 2023
Why do abusive men fight so hard in the family court systems? Especially when they were never really all that interested before? Dr. Jessica Taylor is back.
How Do Abusers Gaslight Victims (& Advocates)?
Aug 15, 2023
Gaslighting can be obvious, gaslighting can be subtle. Dr. Jessica Taylor, author of Why Women Are Blamed For Everything is on the BTR.ORG Podcast.
Why You ACTUALLY Feel Off In Your Relationship
Aug 08, 2023
If you feel crazy in your relationship, Jane Gilmore is back, explaining how the media is doing a major disservice to abuse victims by misrepresenting what abuse often looks like.
Is it My Fault That My Husband is Angry?
Aug 01, 2023
Jane Gilmore is back, explaining with logic and powerful stories & examples, why your husband's feelings and behavior are NOT your responsibility or your fault.
How Do I Know if I’m Truly Giving Consent To Have Sex With My Husband?
Jul 25, 2023
If you've felt lonely, confused, or sad after sex with your husband, you might wonder if you are truly giving consent. Jane Gilmore discusses grooming, manipulative tactics, and how to ensure your sexual encounters are mutual and safe.
Is My Husband Manipulating Me Into Sex? How To Know
Jul 18, 2023
How can I tell if my husband is manipulating me into sex? Consent is more than giving or getting a yes. Jane Gilmore is back on the BTR.ORG podcast.
When You Say “Yes” To Sex, But Feel Dead Inside
Jul 11, 2023
Sexual mutuality is NOT simply giving a "yes" - Jane Gilmore offers a crystal clear definition of sexual mutuality to help you on your journey to safety.
Here’s How Trauma Has Affected My Sexuality
Jul 04, 2023
Anne's crush on Indiana Jones may be revealing that trauma has affected her sexuality. She tells all in this short episode.
Stop Telling Victims to Forgive Their Abuser!
Jun 27, 2023
Have you been counseled to forgive the abuser in your life? Learn why the concept of forgiveness can be harmful to victims.
Faith Triumphs Over Satanic Ritual Sexual Abuse
Jun 20, 2023
TW: Anna M. Jonathan developed a new relationship with her Higher Power after surviving satanic ritual sex abuse as a child.
How to Navigate Divorce Alone: Without Family Support
Jun 13, 2023
Anna M. Jonathan sought safety from her abusive husband without familial support - if you're in a similar situation, learn more.
Here’s the Truth About Reunification Camps
Jun 06, 2023
Reunification camps are traumatizing children and ruining lives. Tina Swithin is back on the BTR.ORG podcast shedding light on this lucrative, abusive industry.
What You Need to Know About Reunification Therapy
May 30, 2023
Tina Swithin, author, blogger, and children's rights advocate, is on the podcast telling you what you need to know about reunification therapy.
Is It Okay To Divorce If I’m Not Sure It’s Abuse?
May 23, 2023
You do not need definitive proof or physical violence to justify ending your marriage. Women can trust THEMSELVES on the journey to safety.
When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework
May 16, 2023
When your husband doesn't help with housework, takes a backseat to parenting, and controls the finances, you may be experiencing coercive control.
How Does Psychological Abuse Affect You?
May 09, 2023
It's not JUST gaslighting and manipulation - it's a serious form of harm. So how does psychological abuse affect you? Christina's on the podcast.
What Does Post-Separation Abuse Look Like?
May 02, 2023
Post-Separation is all-too common. Laurel is on the podcast sharing her experience and answering the question: What Does Post-Separation Abuse Look Like?
How Do Abusers Gaslight You? REAL LIFE Examples!
Apr 25, 2023
What does gaslighting actually look like in a marriage? Laurel's on the podcast this week - tune in for some real-life examples of gaslighting.
Pornography Addiction Recovery Groups
Apr 18, 2023
Do pornography addiction recovery groups help abusive men stop harming women and children? Short answer - uh, no. Laurel is back on the BTR.ORG podcast.
3 Ways to Know He’s Love Bombing You
Apr 11, 2023
Is your husband or boyfriend love bombing you? Laurel is on the podcast, discussing love bombing, also known as "grooming". Tune in!
Why Do I Want To Fix My Abusive Husband?
Apr 04, 2023
When your husband is abusive, you may desperately want to fix his behavior to save your marriage; Dr. Natalie Jones is back on the podcast.
My Husband Says He’s Not Attracted To Me
Mar 28, 2023
Narcissistic abusers pick on physical features. Dr. Natalie Jones is on the podcast sharing her expertise in narcissistic abuse in the BIPOC community.
After Betrayal Should I Stay Or Should I Go?
Mar 21, 2023
Instead of asking, "Should I Stay or Should I Go", ask THESE questions, that can help you determine your husband's level of safety.
Do’s & Don’ts When Confronting Your Abusive Husband
Mar 14, 2023
You've identified abuse - and confronting your husband may seem like the logical next step, but the truth is that he'll use your confrontation to harm you.
How Do I Know If My Abusive Husband is Changing?
Mar 07, 2023
Your husband says he wants to change and you believe him. Learn how to safely observe if he's truly changing or if it's just more grooming and gaslighting.
Are You Married to a Covert Narcissist?
Feb 28, 2023
Covert narcissistic abuse is difficult to identify and even harder to escape - learn from Claire's journey and take steps to get yourself to safety.
My Abusive Ex Keeps Texting Me – What Should I Do?
Feb 21, 2023
Do you get a pit in your stomach when your phone dings? Learn more about strategic communication as Anne interviews two fathers of victims.
3 Ways to Help Your Abused Daughter
Feb 14, 2023
Is your daughter a victim of betrayal and abuse? Please be the parent that she deserves - learn more on the BTR.ORG podcast.
3 Things Manipulative Men Say To Keep You Stuck
Feb 07, 2023
Trying to discern if you're being manipulated by your husband? An abuser emailed Anne - an her response may help you identify manipulation.
Find Support For Emotional Abuse
Jan 31, 2023
If you're a victim of betrayal trauma and emotional abuse, you need support. Come find the community you deserve today.
Patriarchy Harms Women: Here’s How
Jan 24, 2023
Have you been raised in a high-control religion, or other system that enables abuse? Learn about how patriarchy has harmed you and begin seeking safety.
How Fundamentalism & Patriarchy Fuel Abuse
Jan 17, 2023
When women are treated as "less than," no matter how subtle the treatment may be, abuse thrives. Fundamentalist religious groups are notoriously misogynistic.
Mind-Blowing Truth: Good Men Exist! 🤯
Jan 10, 2023
If you're wondering whether or not good men ACTUALLY exist, then you're in the right place. Gretchen Baskerville is back on the BTR.ORG podcast.
A Glimpse Into Single Life Post-Divorce
Jan 03, 2023
Are you reluctant to pursue a life-saving divorce because of the harmful myths that inundate us regarding divorce and the single-life?
Does “God Hate Divorce”?
Dec 27, 2022
Letting go of deeply ingrained, toxic religious teachings can be difficult - but BTR.ORG is here for you. Emily is on the podcast.
I Think My Husband’s Lying To Me
Dec 20, 2022
Things aren't adding up... There's a feeling that something is "off"... and that blank stare on his face - is your husband lying to you? Emily's on the podcast
Do I Tell My Husband He’s Abusing Me?
Dec 13, 2022
When you know it's abuse, should you tell your husband? Leslie is back on the BTR podcast and we're taking a deep dive into your next steps.
The Truth About “Reactive Abuse”
Dec 06, 2022
"Reactive Abuse" isn't real - what IS real? Abusers pushing and pushing until victims reach their limit and respond with Protective Action.
What Do Abuse Victims Look Like?
Nov 29, 2022
Abuse victims come in all shapes, sizes, religions, and economic demographics - Leslie is a successful doctor sharing her story.
Did You Know This Is Sexual Abuse?
Nov 22, 2022
Image-Based Sexual Abuse, formerly known as "revenge porn" has affected many women in our community. Christen Price from NCOSE is back on the BTR.ORG podcast.
This Is Why Porn Is Abuse
Nov 15, 2022
Christen Price from NCOSE is on the BTR.ORG Podcast, taking a deep dive into the topic of Image-Based Sexual Abuse. Learn more.
The Secret to Healthy Marriage
Nov 08, 2022
Many victims of abuse want a healthy, loving relationship. Nora's sharing the ending of her story - which includes the 👉🏽 secret of healthy relationships 👈🏽
When Your Husband Uses CSAM
Nov 01, 2022
👉🏽 Did your ex use Child Sex Abuse Material? Nora is sharing her story. Trauma for her ex's CSAM use has affected the whole family. Read more. 👈🏽
This Is Why Your Husband Shows No Empathy 💔
Oct 25, 2022
💔 Is it autism? Addiction? Pornography? Mental illness? Or is it a choice to be abusive and devoid of empathy? Nora is on the podcast with Anne.
Is Healthy Marriage a Myth?
Oct 18, 2022
Are you, like many women in our community, wondering if healthy marriage is a myth? Chandra's here to tell you about her own experience.
Abusive Second Marriage? You’re Not Alone
Oct 11, 2022
Have you experienced an abusive second marriage? Chandra is on the BTR.ORG Podcast to share her own experiencing marrying an abuser a second time.
Abandonment: What You Need to Know
Oct 04, 2022
Many women in the BTR.ORG community face the trauma of abandonment. Chandra is on the BTR.ORG podcast sharing her story.
This is How Abusers Control the Narrative
Sep 27, 2022
When the abuser controls the narrative it's terrifying - we worry that no one will believe us. Sometimes we don't even believe ourselves.
5 Red Flags You Need To Know
Sep 20, 2022
Ayla and Anne on the BTR.ORG podcast discussing the subtle (and not-so-subtle) red flags of abuse that you need to know TODAY.
Am I Being Spiritually Abused?
Sep 13, 2022
Are you asking the question, "Am I Being Spiritually Abused?" This interview is for you. Anne and Abby take a deep dive into deliverance from spiritual abuse.
Is Marriage Meant To Be This Hard?
Sep 06, 2022
When everyone tells women that marriage is supposed to be hard, it can be much more difficult for victims to seek safety.
3 Attacks to Anticipate When Leaving Abuse
Aug 30, 2022
Are you just about ready to leave the abuser? Read up on 3 common attacks abusers employ to keep up the power-over dynamic.
What Consent Actually Looks Like
Aug 23, 2022
Let's talk about what consent IS, and what consent is NOT. Elizabeth is on the podcast sharing her story publicly for the very first time.
The Truth About Divorce
Aug 16, 2022
Organizations like Focus on the Family want you to believe that divorce is going to ruin everything. Let's learn the truth about divorce.
Busting 3 Divorce Myths Now
Aug 09, 2022
Three pervasive divorce myths are harming victims. Let's bust those myths with Gretchen Baskerville, author of Life-Saving Divorce.
You Deserve Safety. Now.
Aug 02, 2022
Identifying abuse is difficult for victims - seeking safety is the next step and BTR.ORG is here for you as you begin your journey to healing.
Has Your Church Harmed You?
Jul 26, 2022
Have you sought help from clergy only to be blamed or counseled to stay in an abusive situation? You are not alone. Learn more here.
Here’s The Truth About Couple’s Therapy
Jul 19, 2022
If you're considering couple's therapy as a way to save your marriage, then this is for you. Couple's therapy is notoriously harmful in an abuse scenario.
Live In Reality (How To Heal)
Jul 12, 2022
Is healing from betrayal and abuse even possible? Yes! Andrea Hipps is back on the BTR podcast sharing how living in reality is key.
Your New Life Post-Divorce
Jul 05, 2022
Divorce can feel daunting, but Andrea Hipps brings a fresh perspective - your new life is waiting for you! Andrea Hipps and Anne on the BTR Podcast.
3 Ways They Blame Abuse Victims
Jun 28, 2022
Kate is back on the BTR podcast discussing victim blaming modalities with Anne. 3 Ways they blame abuse victims, including Stockholm syndrome & codependency.
The Ways They Victim Blame You
Jun 21, 2022
Kate and Anne are on the podcast discussing victim blaming modalities. Take a deep dive with them into the ways abusers & enablers victim blame you.
Shame Didn’t Make Him Do It
Jun 14, 2022
He may blame his porn use and other abusive behaviors on "shame", but Kate and Anne break it down on the BTR podcast. Shame didn't make him do it.
The Sex Addiction Myth Exposed
Jun 07, 2022
Kate and Anne take a deep dive into the myth of sex addiction - and explain why every victim needs to understand the truth about the sex addiction model.
3 Common Triggers For Victims
May 31, 2022
Too many victims experience horrible triggers when friends, families, and others say insensitive, harmful, and/or abusive things. Kate and Anne on the podcast.
This Is Why They Say We’re Crazy
May 24, 2022
Calling women crazy is keeping abusive men in power. It's been working for centuries and it's still working now. Kate Moore is on the BTR podcast.
Men Need to Stop Calling Us Crazy
May 17, 2022
When men call women crazy, there are serious ramifications. Kate Moore is on the BTR podcast sharing Elizabeth Packard's story.
3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims
May 10, 2022
Narcissistic abusers will do whatever they can develop and maintain a power-over dynamic. Learn the 3 ways that narcissistic abusers groom victims.
What Are BTR Group Sessions?
May 03, 2022
Many victims spend years, even decades, struggling to identify the abuse in their relationships. BTR Group Sessions can help you on your journey to healing.
How To Set Boundaries Around Sex
Apr 26, 2022
Abusers condition victims to believe that setting sexual boundaries is selfish -but you deserve sexual and emotional safety. Sheila Gregoire on the BTR podcast.
How To Make Sex Great For You!
Apr 19, 2022
Betrayal and abuse can make sex traumatizing. But great sex doesn't have to be permanently off the table. Sheila Gregoire is back on the BTR podcast.
The Truth About “Porn Addiction”
Apr 12, 2022
Faith communities, therapists, and others treat porn use like an addiction issue. The reality is that abusive men often use porn.
When Churches Harm Abuse Victims
Apr 05, 2022
Your faith community should be a place of respite and support. But too many victims find clergy ignorant, harmful, and tragically, abusive. Learn more.
Should I Separate From My Husband?
Mar 29, 2022
The decision to separate can be daunting for victims of abuse. Lorelai joins Anne on the BTR podcast to discuss her own separation
How Do I Know If It’s Abuse?
Mar 22, 2022
Abusers condition victims to struggle with discerning reality. If you're here, you are trying to figure out if you are being abused. We can help.
How To Find Confidence Post-Abuse
Mar 15, 2022
If you're like other victims of abuse, then you may feel like you've lost your self-confidence. Learn how to begin finding it again.
Parenting When Your Ex is Abusive
Mar 08, 2022
Parenting is hard enough, but when your ex is abusive? Navigating the world of parenting can feel downright overwhelming. Michelle Donnelly on the BTR podcast.
Post-Separation Abuse: The Truth
Mar 01, 2022
If only abuse stopped after divorce... but abusers still seek power and control over victims. Learn the truth about post-separation abuse.
The Reality Of Spiritual Abuse
Feb 22, 2022
Spiritual abuse doesn't only affect religious women. Your beliefs about justice, hope, and karma may come crashing around you after spiritual abuse.
3 Compelling Reasons to Learn About Hidden Abuse
Feb 15, 2022
Feel overwhelmed at the thought of learning more about abuse? Here are three reasons it's a good idea to begin delving into your abuse education.
BTR.ORG Group Sessions Are Your Safe Space
Feb 08, 2022
Looking for a safe space to process your trauma and begin your journey to healing? Then BTRG is the place for you. Coach Christina on the BTR podcast.
Misogyny in Faith Communities
Feb 01, 2022
Misogyny harms everyone: men, women, and children. Valerie Hudson and Anne Blythe take a deep dive into misogyny in faith communities.
Loving Your Abuser: Three Myths
Jan 25, 2022
Have you been counseled to "love your enemies"? Take a deep dive into what this actually means with Valerie Hudson.
The Truth About Forgiving Abuse
Jan 18, 2022
Everything we thought we knew about forgiveness blamed victims and enabled abuse. Valerie Hudson joins Anne on the BTR podcast.
If only healing from betrayal trauma were as easy as reading a Reddit forum. Here's 5 Reasons why that won't work.
The Abusive Scripts That Harm Us
Dec 28, 2021
What unconscious beliefs and scripts have been harming victims for centuries? Dr. Omar Minwalla takes a deep dive with Anne.
Betrayal is Abuse, Here’s Why
Dec 21, 2021
Betrayal isn't a marriage issue - it's an abuse issue. Dr. Omar Minwalla joins Anne on the free BTR podcast to explain and empower.
The Secret Sexual Basement
Dec 14, 2021
A deep dive into the truth about why sexual betrayal is an domestic abuse with Dr. Omar MInwall and Anne Blythe on the BTR podcast.
How Does Infidelity Harm Victims?
Dec 07, 2021
Intimate betrayal can affect a victim and her children long after the abuser has left the picture. Learn more about the affects of infidelity.
Trauma Victims Deserve THIS Love
Nov 30, 2021
Betrayal trauma and abuse can condition victims to believe that they are not worthy of love. Learn what kind of love YOU deserve.
The Truth About Spiritual Abuse
Nov 23, 2021
Spiritual abuse is often more subtle and overlooked than we realize. Learn the truth about spiritual abuse and how to begin healing here.
How to Find the Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group: 5 Things to Know
Nov 16, 2021
Wondering where to find the best betrayal trauma support group? Women share their insights and experiences.
You Are Not Your Husband’s Object
Nov 09, 2021
Gary Thomas book and Debra Fileta's book, Married Sex, is traumatizing victims of sexual coercion and marital rape. Learn more.
PornHub Is Simply Abuse Videos
Nov 02, 2021
Laila MIckelwait exposes PornHub for what it really is - a cesspool of abuse videos. Learn how you can help take it down today.
Facing Your Divorce Fears
Oct 26, 2021
Face your fears about divorce and find the support you need from the BTR.ORG community. Anne discusses common fears and available support.
Why Is God Ignoring Me?
Oct 19, 2021
Women of faith communities may feel abandoned by God when they experience abuse and betrayal. Support is necessary and BTR is here for you.
Become Fearless, Free, and Uncontrollable
Oct 12, 2021
You deserve safety - become fearless, free, and uncontrollable as you seek support here in the BTR.ORG community. We love you. We believe you.
3 Power Phrases You Need Today
Oct 05, 2021
Finding safety from abuse takes courage, determination, and incredible strength. You can choose now to stop complying with abuse.
Help Prevent Human Trafficking
Sep 28, 2021
Anne Basham, human rights activist, joins Anne on the BTR podcast to teach listeners how to prevent human trafficking. Go to BTR.org for more.
Human Trafficking & Abusive Men
Sep 21, 2021
A deep dive into the correlations between human trafficking, pornography, and domestic abuse. Anne Basham joins Anne on the BTR podcast.
When He Uses The Kids To Hurt You
Sep 14, 2021
Victims can seek deliverance from the family court system, abusive clergy, and abusive partners even when these systems and individuals continue to harm them.
It’s Not a Trauma Bond: It’s A Manufactured Relational Tether
Sep 07, 2021
Did you know that you're NOT trauma bonded to the abuser? You're not. Find out how he's manipulated you to feel that way.
3 Signs of An Abusive Therapist
Aug 31, 2021
Have you felt uncomfortable, exploited, or abused by your therapist? Dee joins Anne to share her story of finding safety from her abusive therapist.
What Is Brain Defense?
Aug 24, 2021
Kristen Jensen empowers children and teens to protect themselves from the dangers of the internet, including pornography, with the new curriculum: Brain Defense.
Want to Understand Abuse? Leslie Vernick Breaks it Down
Aug 17, 2021
Leslie Vernick joins Anne to shed light on how victims of betrayal and abuse can seek safety and peace from abusive relationships. 3 steps you can take today.
What Does God Say About Abuse?
Aug 10, 2021
Leslie Vernick shares the Biblical Christian view of abuse, betrayal, and healing.
The Best Betrayal Trauma Resource For Support
Jul 27, 2021
No matter where you are on your journey to healing, BTR is here for you. Read on to know how BTR can support you as you work toward the life that you deserve.
Divorcing An Abuser 101
Jul 20, 2021
Are you ready to break the cycle of abuse in your life? Divorce may be the answer for you. Learn the basics of divorcing an abuser with Wendy Hernandez.
Avoiding Chaos in the Courtroom
Jul 13, 2021
Experiencing abuse, lies, and betrayal can leave you feeling in a fog. It can feel overwhelming.
May be you are thinking: Can I stay? Am I going to take the step toward separation? What about divorce? What is going to happen?
Regardless of what ends up happening, you can takes steps to ensure safety, preparation, and peace in the process as much as possible.
Emotional Abuse Can Escalate During Separation
Wendy Hernandez, creator of Command the Courtroom, says that women in situations of emotional abuse can and should begin to prepare early for various possibilities that can happen along the journey.
"Often times the emotional abuse is in the form of legal abuse, once the divorce has gotten started. It can turn into a scorched earth type of litigation that goes on not only for months, but years. It can be destructive. Whoever is going through this, must do what makes sense for them. It can be a balance." -Wendy Hernandez, Command the Courtroom
What is Post-Separation Abuse?
It is important to focus on safety in the midst of the trauma and chaos of litigation. It can be hard to heal when safety is not secured. Post-separation abuse can and does occur, as the abuse just changes forms. Legal draining, constant litigation, and using the kids as pawns as some of the ways post-separation abuse can manifest.
Here are some helpful hints for preparing for Post-Separation Abuse:
Documentation is KEY!Communicate only in writing. Keep communication centered on children.Consider using an app or program like Our Family Wizard or Custody X Change.Be sure to respond appropriately to communication regarding children.
BTR Can Be There For You
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is here for you. Join today and find a community of women who understand.
You are not alone, no matter what.
Will I Ever Trust Again?
Jul 06, 2021
Abused and betrayed women wonder if they will ever recover their desire and ability to have trusting relationships. Dr. Deb Silber offers insight and advice.
From Betrayal To Breakthrough
Jun 29, 2021
How can betrayal victims begin thriving and finding themselves after betrayal? Dr. Debi Silber shares the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough.
The Truth About Betrayal Trauma
Jun 22, 2021
Knowing the truth about betrayal trauma is the first step to finding healing, peace, and hope. Betrayal trauma is the result of abuse. BTR can help. Read more.
Clean Browsing Helps Your Kids
Jun 15, 2021
You are not powerless against pornography. Clean Browsing empowers mothers to protect their children from the harms of pornography. Learn more.
I Found Porn On My Husband’s Phone. I’m Devastated.
Jun 08, 2021
If you just found porn on your husband's phone, you're not alone. Listen to Cristy share her story.
3 Toxic Myths About Sex That Harm Women
Jun 01, 2021
Sheila Gregoire, author of The Great Sex Rescue, deconstructs toxic sex myths to empower women in their journeys to safety.
Sexuality 101 For Betrayed Women
May 25, 2021
Abusive men condition women to view sexuality through a lens of pain, confusion, and fear. Sheila Gregoire guides victims to understand the truth about sex.
Fighting A Narcissist For Custody
May 18, 2021
Wondering how to fight for your children as you divorce your narcissistic abuser? Tina Swithin shares powerful insights.
3 Ways To Prepare To Divorce your Narcissist
May 11, 2021
It's never too early or too late to begin preparing to divorce your narcissistic abuser. Here are 3 tips from Tina Swithin to help you on your journey to healing.
How Does Prayer Help Abuse Victims?
May 04, 2021
Do you feel afraid? Overwhelmed? Alone? Prayer can help you as you navigate your journey to healing.
3 Values We Can Expect From Men
Apr 27, 2021
When you've only known abuse and betrayal, what can you really expect from men? Learn 3 values that you can expect, and what to do when men choose to abuse.
My Husband Calls Me Abusive
Apr 20, 2021
Grounding yourself in truth and safety when your husband calls you abusive.
Your Husband Is Devaluing You
Apr 13, 2021
Do you feel confused? Alone? Afraid? Your husband may be devaluing you. Learn more.
BTR.ORG Group Sessions Are For YOU!
Mar 23, 2021
Have you been ignored, dismissed, minimized, vilified, and torn down by those who should have helped you? BTR.ORG Group Sessions are for YOU!
4 Behaviors of Pornography Users
Mar 16, 2021
Do you suspect that your partner is using porn? Have you discovered pornographic material on his phone or computer? These 4 tell-tale behaviors of pornography users will validate you and help you understand how his behavior is harming you.
Tiffany Barnes join Anne Blythe on the free BTR podcast to share her insights and experience regarding the ways pornography users abuse women. Read the full transcript below and listen to the free BTR podcast for more.
Pornography Users Gaslight Victims
Gaslighting is a universal tool of abusers. By distorting the victim's reality, porn users can avoid accountability and shift blame onto the victim.
Gaslighting is also known as crazy-making.
When Tiffany would confront her abusive ex-partner about his pornography use, she was gaslit:
He just tried to make me feel like I was being crazy, and I did. I questioned it a few times; am Icrazy? Is this just me being ultra-paranoid or something?
Pornography Users Attempt To Normalize Their Porn Use
Often, pornography users employ tactics to make their sexually depraved behaviors appear normal to avoid accountability and make the victim feel "prude", boring, or immature.
Some of the ways that pornography users attempt to normalize porn are:
"Hiding" pornographic material in plain sightCalling pornographic material "art"Saying things like, "Everyone does this"; "I'm a guy, that's what guys do"; or "No other woman would have issues about my porn use."Saying that they use pornography to help the marriage/relationship become strongerBlaming the victim by saying things like, "If you would have sex with me more, I wouldn't do this."
Pornography is NOT a healthy and natural piece of human sexuality: it is abuse and exploitation. When victims can ground themselves in this truth, their partner's manipulation won't work any more.
Pornography Users Dehumanize Their Partners
Many women report being photographed, videotaped, or even live-streamed by their abusive partners. Women are sexually coerced, degraded, and physically harmed when phonography users demand sexual contact.
Pornography itself is objectification: selling women's bodies for money. When men choose to view pornographic material, they are by default objectifying other human beings. This rarely stays compartmentalized.
Pornography users dehumanize their partners by:Fantasizing about themAsking them to perform sexual acts that the victims are not comfortable withAsking victims to view pornography with themDemanding or guilting partners into having sexual contactFilming, photographing, or otherwise sharing sexual photos of victims, with or without consent
Pornography Users Sexually Coerce Partners
Any time a man has sexual contact with his partner without fully disclosing his sexual history, including pornography use, he is guilty of sexual coercion.
Healthy sex is consensual. Women cannot give informed consent when men withhold key information about their own sexual behaviors. This is sexual coercion, a serious form of sexual abuse.
If you think you are being sexually coerced by your partner, ask yourself: Have we ever had sexual contact when he had used phonography but hadn't told me? If the answer is yes, then you are a victim of sexual abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkPH4zkxJYw
Betrayal Trauma Recovery Supports Victims of Pornography Users
At BTR, we understand the confusion, fear, and devastation that women experience when their partner is using porn.
That is why we created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group: so that women can have access to multiple, live sessions every day.
The BTRG gives women the opportunity to process trauma, ask questions, and share difficult feelings in a safe place. Join today.
Full Transcript:
Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, this is Anne.
I have some amazing news! We just surpassed 1 million downloads to the podcast, which I never everimagined would happen,
Emancipate Yourself From Emotional Abuse
Mar 09, 2021
You deserve safety, authentic love, and healing. Emancipate yourself from abuse today.
I’m a Victim of Narcissistic Abuse, But They’re Calling ME Crazy
Mar 02, 2021
Narcissistic abusers & their flying monkeys (enablers) accuse victims of being overly sensitive, cruel, and crazy. BTR can help you find safety and peace.
3 Ways Your Husband May Be Grooming You
Feb 23, 2021
Does he say he's changing, but you still feel unheard and confused? Learn how your abuser is grooming you and how to find safety.
Sexual Coercion In Marriage – Definition & 3 Key Indicators
Feb 16, 2021
The definition of sexual coercion is especially important for married women to know because it happens most frequently in marriage.
3 Steps To Safely Leave The Emotional Abuse Behind – Lee-Anne’s Story
Feb 09, 2021
3 Steps To Safely Leave The Emotional Abuse Behind - Lee-Anne's Story
3 Tips To Protect You From Clergy Sexual Misconduct
Feb 02, 2021
No woman deserves to be victimized by the clergy she trusts. Dave Gemmel provides 3 tips to protect you today.
The Truth About Clergy Sexual Misconduct
Jan 26, 2021
When clergy use their position of authority to take advantage of trust, they may be committing clergy sexual misconduct. Learn more.
Dating After Betrayal: 3 Tips
Jan 19, 2021
Victims of betrayal and emotional abuse may be concerned about dating after an abusive relationship. Jessica Skybar offers empowering tips.
“I Asked About Porn, & He Lied”
Jan 12, 2021
What to do when your husband lies to you about his pornography use.
Lundy Bancroft: “You Are Crucial”
Jan 05, 2021
Lundy Bancroft shares how victims of abuse are betrayed by faith communities, court systems, and others. Women can triumph over trauma and regain their sense of self. BTR can help.
Why Domestic Abuse is Child Abuse: Lundy Bancroft Tells All
Dec 29, 2020
Children are always affected by an abuser's behavior, even if they never see it. Victims are not powerless. Lundy Bancroft explains how mothers can protect and help their children process and heal from abuse.
7 Truths About Emotional Abuse
Dec 22, 2020
Myths about emotional abuse enable abusers to keep abusing victims. The 7 Powerful Truths About Emotional Abuse help victims find safety.
Why Does Sex Hurt? (It’s Not What You Think)
Dec 15, 2020
Sexual abuse causes pelvic and sexual pain. Learn how to identify sexual abuse in your marriage and begin healing today.
3 Tactics Emotional Abusers Use
Dec 08, 2020
When victims can identify abuse, they can make informed decisions about their safety and health. Learn 3 tactics abusers use, and why they are so powerful.
You’re Not Crazy: Porn Is Abuse
Dec 01, 2020
Victims of abusive pornography users may wonder if they are overreacting, but they aren't: pornography use is abusive. Support, safety, and self-care can help women find healing.
Find Safety From Emotional Abuse
Nov 24, 2020
Victims of emotional abuse deserve safety: a guide to victims on seeking safety from an abusive relationship.
Is Lying Emotionally Abusive?
Nov 17, 2020
Victims of emotional abuse say that lies and manipulation are one of the most damaging pieces of the abuse they endure.
Is Emotional Abuse a Domestic Abuse Issue?
Nov 10, 2020
It's not "just emotional abuse": it's also domestic abuse and must be treated seriously.
Covert Abuse? You’re In Danger
Nov 03, 2020
He may not hit you, yell at you, or seem like a mean, angry bully - but covert abuse is just as dangerous and harmful as physical battery. Learn more.
BTRG Is Here For You
Oct 27, 2020
Many women have a difficult time finding the right support for betrayal trauma and emotional & psychological abuse. Nikki shares how BTR Group supports her when there's no support where she lives.
Why Can’t I See Emotional Abuse?
Oct 20, 2020
Anne Blythe and Marni Bown, Shero and public speaker, talk about why so many women have difficulty recognizing the emotional and psychological abuse in their own relationships.
Self-Care For Betrayal Victims
Oct 13, 2020
Betrayed women have a hard time learning to take care of themselves again. Trish White shares the 4 Essential Components of Great Self-Care for beginners.
Self-Care & Betrayal Trauma
Oct 06, 2020
When a woman has been betrayed, self-care is the last thing on her mind, but it's the most important thing she can do for her own healing. Trish White explains why.
5 Reasons To Attend a BTR Group Session
Sep 29, 2020
Finally learning that you aren't alone in your struggles is validating. Finding a support group and a coach that really gets your unique situation is priceless.
‘Trauma Mama’ Empowers YOU!
Sep 22, 2020
Explaining the effects of emotional and psychological abuse to someone else is nearly impossible, especially when you're still trying to figure it out yourself! Anne Blythe presents Trauma Mama Husband Drama! Anne and Virginia talk about the process of writing the book and how it can help women get the help they need and heal.
Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse
Sep 15, 2020
Deep cuts, broken bones, broken hearts or hidden bruises, any of these can hurt again years after they've healed. Shannon Thomas talks about resurfacing trauma and what to do with it.
The 6 Stages Of Healing from Hidden Abuse
Sep 08, 2020
There are no physical bruises, scars, or blood, but the pain is real. Shannon Thomas talks about hidden abuses and the 6
Stages to Heal From Hidden Abuse.
“Trauma Mama” Can Help You Today
Sep 01, 2020
Combined with beautiful illustrations by Cristalwolf Lobazul, Anne Blythe uses simple words and pictures to help explain the emotional and psychological abuse women experience as a result of their husband's pornography use.
Divorcing An Emotional Abuser
Aug 25, 2020
Emotional abuse is abuse. Period. You can find safety and peace again after emotional abuse - learn more here.
Preparing For Divorce While Hoping He Changes
Aug 18, 2020
Betrayal and abuse make preparing for divorce a necessity for victims. Even when you are hoping that he decides to change, educating yourself is key.
How Do I Set Boundaries In My Marriage?
Aug 11, 2020
You can establish healthy boundaries in your marriage, post-betrayal, by following these simple guidelines to gain greater emotional safety & stability.
3 Boundaries You Can Set Today
Aug 04, 2020
3 helpful boundaries for women ready to find safety and healing after emotional abuse.
4 Phrases That Enable Abuse
Jul 28, 2020
Abuse doesn't stop during a crisis, in fact, it escalates. BTR can help.
3 Empowering Words For Victims
Jul 21, 2020
When emotional abuse leaves you feeling lost in the darkness, where do you turn for comfort and peace?
Abusive Behaviors To Watch For During A Crisis
Jul 14, 2020
During a crisis, domestic abuse escalates. Women can minimize the effects of the abuse; BTR can help.
Why Disclosures Are Harmful
Jun 23, 2020
Disclosures do not give victims the safety they deserve - even though it may seem like a good idea, usually victims are just more harmed. Learn why.
How To Get Back To Yourself After Emotional Abuse
Jun 16, 2020
Victims of abuse and betrayal ask, "will I ever be myself again?" BTR can help women find safety and healing.
The Ugly Truth About Pornography
Jun 09, 2020
The pornography/sex trafficking industry is an insidious and dangerous reality for women.
My Husband is Admitting He’s Abusive
Jun 02, 2020
Your husband is getting on board with recovery work and you're hopeful that this time it's real. How to respond when your husband appears to "get it".
The Kill Zone: Kids & Porn
May 26, 2020
Victims of betrayal and abuse can teach their children the truth about pornography.
5 Ways To Help The Child Of A Narcissist
May 19, 2020
Narcissistic fathers harm children, but victims can rise up and guide their children to safety and healing.
How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband: 5 Tips
May 05, 2020
Learn how to survive marriage with your narcissistic husband.
5 Tips To Surviving The Holidays
Apr 28, 2020
5 Tips for victims of betrayal and abuse during the holiday season.
How To Co Parent With a Narcissist
Apr 21, 2020
Dr. Ramani teaches you how to effective co parent when your ex-husband is a narcissist.
Voicing The Agony of Trauma
Apr 14, 2020
Victims of abuse and betrayal begin their journey to healing when they find their voice.
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse
Apr 07, 2020
Learning about narcissistic abuse can help victims find safety and begin healing.
Susan Powell’s Story: Betrayal & Murder
Mar 31, 2020
Important lessons about abuse and safety from Susan Powell's story.
Call It Abuse, Save Lives
Mar 24, 2020
Victims of abuse and betrayal deserve to be validated, supported, and guided to safety. Call it abuse and you may save her life.
Honor Code Office Trauma
Mar 17, 2020
Institutional abuse re-traumatizes victims; when victims find their voices and share their stories, healing can begin.
Self-Care: Surviving Abuse
Mar 10, 2020
Self-care tips for victims of betrayal and abuse.
Why Pornography Is More Than Sex
Mar 03, 2020
Pornography users commit three major sins: lust, greed, and dishonesty. Learn more.
The Abuse Vortex
Feb 25, 2020
When victims become empowered through trauma and abuse education, they can find safety and begin healing.
Pornography Is An Abuse Issue
Feb 18, 2020
Pornography is abusive: here's why.
“I Realized I Was Being Abused!”
Feb 11, 2020
Victims can learn to identify and protect themselves from abuse. BTR can help.
Why Giving Your Husband A List Of Boundaries Won’t Work (With Examples)
Feb 04, 2020
Many therapists encourage women to write a list of boundaries. Here's why that never works, with real life examples.
The Best Betrayal Trauma Resources For Women
Jan 28, 2020
You deserve the BEST resources for betrayal trauma as you navigate your journey to emotional safety, healing, and peace. Learn more.
Weaponizing Codependency Language
Jan 14, 2020
Codependency language is a dangerous weapon in the hands of an abusive/unfaithful man.
Is My Husband Grooming Me?
Jan 07, 2020
Grooming is a universal tool of abusers. Learn what it is, how to spot it, and how to find safety.
Pornography: A Human Rights Issue
Dec 31, 2019
Pornography is a human rights issue. Learn more.
Is Pornography A Feminist Issue?
Dec 24, 2019
Pornography is anti-woman and anti-feminist. Learn more.
Protect Teens From Sexual Abuse
Dec 17, 2019
Empower teens to set boundaries to protect themselves from sexual coercion and abuse.
End Sexual Exploitation
Dec 10, 2019
Pornography is sexual exploitation. Learn how you can join the fight for a porn-free world.
Betrayal Trauma Checklist
Dec 03, 2019
What are your next steps to find safety and support after discovering betrayal? BTR can help.
Is Pornography Sexual Coercion?
Nov 26, 2019
Sexual coercion takes on many forms, including the non-disclosure of secret sexual behaviors.
12-Step: What You Need To Know
Nov 05, 2019
12 Step programs teach self-improvement to women who actually need safety and validation.
The Codependency Model Exposed
Oct 29, 2019
Betrayed women are not codependent, they are victims of abuse. BTR can help.
How To Recognize Victim Blaming
Oct 22, 2019
Victim-blaming is harmful and hurtful. BTR can help.
Body Image Issues & Betrayal
Oct 15, 2019
Betrayal and abuse can cause severe body image issues in victims. Hope and healing are possible. BTR can help.
How To Handle Trauma Triggers
Oct 08, 2019
Triggers are a natural result of betrayal trauma. Learn how to use them to your benefit.
Your Abusive Husband’s Therapist
Oct 01, 2019
Four necessary statements from your husband's therapist.
Can Legitimate Anger Be Helpful?
Sep 24, 2019
Anger helps victims of betrayal and abuse identify abusive behavior and set boundaries.
The Healing Power Of “Me-Too”
Sep 17, 2019
Saying "Me Too" can help victims begin the journey to healing. BTR can help.
The Truth About Wife Rape
Sep 10, 2019
Join Anne as she interviews Wendy, survivor of marital rape. Listen to how this experience has impacted Wendy's life. Gain valuable information about wife rape and sexual assault within marriage. Learn why this is so damaging and harmful to victims.
Your CSAT Is Harming You
Sep 03, 2019
Betrayed women are not co-addicts: they are victims of trauma.
Betrayal Hurts, But You CAN Heal
Aug 27, 2019
Betrayal trauma is devastating. Women CAN find healing and peace. BTR can help.
How Friends & Family Can Help Abuse Victims
Aug 20, 2019
Family and friends can help or harm victims. Learn how to support victims of abuse.
Connecting With Children After Betrayal Trauma
Aug 13, 2019
Betrayal trauma is overwhelming. Small steps can help mothers re-connect with their children.
Transformation After Betrayal
Aug 06, 2019
Betrayal trauma doesn't have to ruin your life - you CAN heal and experience Post-Betrayal Transformation.
Will Cleanbrowsing Family Filter DNS Keep My Internet Safe?
Jul 30, 2019
Creating a porn-free environment is an absolute necessity for every family.
Want a Porn-Free Home? Here’s How
Jul 23, 2019
Victims of betrayal trauma want porn-free homes. Here's how.
Women married to porn users usually suspect something is wrong in their relationship, but they rarely realize it's emotional abuse. Find out why porn use is abuse.
Is Cheating Emotional Abuse?
Jul 09, 2019
Learn from Dr. Omar Minwalla why cheating is abuse.
Your Guide to Dating After Narcissistic Abuse
Jul 02, 2019
Here's your guide to dating after narcissistic abuse, shared by Kate*, a survivor.
Why Do I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating On Me?
Jun 25, 2019
You don't have proof, but something just feels "off". Learn how to navigate the dread that your husband is cheating.
3 Signs of Spiritual Abuse in the Church
Jun 18, 2019
Learn how to the 3 signs of spiritual abuse as Liz shares her story.
Is Partner Betrayal Trauma Counseling Right For Me?
Jun 11, 2019
Is partner betrayal trauma counseling the answer after infidelity? Learn more.
Is Infidelity a Form of Emotional Abuse?
Jun 04, 2019
Learn exactly why infidelity is considered a form of emotional abuse.
My Husband’s Emotional Restitution Letter
May 28, 2019
An emotional restitution letter can be difficult to process in the aftermath of betrayal.
Why Does My Husband Look At Other Women Online?
May 21, 2019
Why is your husband looking at other women and watching porn online when he knows it hurts you? Learn the real reasons.
How Do I Heal From Narcissistic Abuse?
May 14, 2019
Learn how to heal from the devastating effects of narcissistic abuse by learning the three steps to narcissistic abuse recovery.
Teaching Children Online Safety: Try This New Resource!
Apr 30, 2019
Teaching children online safety is essential in today's world, and White Ribbon Week is an incredible resource for parents and schools.
How to Find Your Voice When You Feel Small
Apr 23, 2019
Emotional abuse makes us feel small, but Allyson Peterson explains how to find your voice, no matter your situation. You CAN find your power and stand in it.
Are Your Kids Safe At Church? What You Need to Know
Apr 16, 2019
Your kids deserve to be safe everywhere they go - especially at church. Kimberly Perry is on the podcast diving into personal & institutional safety for kids.
How to Begin Healing Trauma From Childhood Sexual Abuse
Apr 09, 2019
Anne & Rachel Grant discuss healing from child sexual abuse and other relational traumas, self-acceptance, and strategies for coping.
My Husband’s Betrayal Broke My Heart: Is Inner Peace Possible?
Apr 02, 2019
The devastation of betrayal trauma & emotional abuse may lead you to wonder if you will ever feel inner peace again. Anne shares her heart on the podcast.
What is the Best Resource For Women With Betrayal Trauma? (BTR Group Sessions vs Bloom For Women)
Mar 26, 2019
Are BTR.ORG Group Sessions or Bloom for Women Resources best for YOU in YOUR healing journey? Find out what both offer & what our clients have to say.
The Best Resources For Personal Empowerment & Healing
Mar 19, 2019
Personal empowerment is essential on the road to recovery from intimate betrayal. Dr. Sheri Keffer is back on The BTR.ORG Podcast.
Intimate Deception: How To Begin Your Healing Journey
Mar 12, 2019
Learn why intimate deception is so hurtful and how to heal from the pain with Dr. Sheri Keffer, author & betrayal trauma expert.
When Your Husband Betrays You With Men
Mar 05, 2019
When your husband betrays you with men, you may grapple with difficult emotions. Sara Schulting Kranz shines a bright light on this form of betrayal.
How to Find Hope & Healing After Emotional Abuse
Feb 26, 2019
Looking back on her personal journey, Anne shares the importance of faith and hope in healing from betrayal trauma and emotional abuse.
How To Establish Healthy Boundaries With Your Abusive Ex
Feb 19, 2019
Setting and holding healthy boundaries with your abusive ex may feel daunting - Kate talks through her journey on the podcast.
When They Say “Forgive Your Abuser”
Feb 12, 2019
"Forgive your abuser" can be deeply invalidating counsel. Anne breaks down the relationship between boundaries and forgiveness.
Teaching Children About Porn: What YOU Need to Know
Feb 05, 2019
Teaching children about porn doesn't have to be an overwhelming experience for kids, teens, and parents. Dina Alexander breaks it down.
A Close Look At Betrayal Trauma Symptoms (Am I Crazy?)
Jan 29, 2019
Are you trying to figure out whether or not you're suffering from betrayal trauma? Dive into our article for a candid chat about its symptoms and how to heal.
Learn How To Conquer Betrayal Trauma With Art
Jan 22, 2019
When it's too hard to find the words to express your trauma and pain, art therapy is a powerful tool to process the betrayal and emotional abuse.
Escaping the Fantasy Trap: How To Find Healing in Presence
Jan 15, 2019
Many women grapple with compulsive fantasies. Breaking free from the trap of fantasy ultimately leads to a more fulfilling and authentic life. Tune in for more.
It’s Perfectly Okay to Numb Out (In Healthy Ways)
Jan 08, 2019
Are you numbing out the pain of betrayal and abuse? It's okay to take a mental break sometimes! Anne talks about healthy ways to "numb out".
How To Help Other Betrayal & Emotional Abuse Victims
Jan 01, 2019
Lisa shares her journey of discovering BTR.ORG, highlighting how YOU can help other betrayal & emotional abuse victims in simple ways.
Making The Decision To Divorce: Everything You Need to Know
Dec 25, 2018
Caroline's story highlights the transformative power of education, self-care, and external support in navigating the challenging decision to divorce.
Staying In Marriage After Discovering Betrayal
Dec 18, 2018
When women choose to stay in a marriage after emotional abuse and betrayal, support, self-care, and boundaries are essential for her safety.
3 Reasons Checking His Devices Doesn’t Help
Dec 11, 2018
Victims of abuse and betrayal seek safety in many ways: focusing on her own boundaries is the best way to find safety and healing.
How To Rebuild Confidence In Your Marketable Skills
Dec 04, 2018
When you re-enter the workforce it's important that you know how to rebuild confidence in your marketable skills. Brittany Larson is on the podcast.
40 Years Of Emotional Abuse & Betrayal Trauma
Nov 27, 2018
Florence, a member of the BTR.ORG community, is a victim who has experienced over forty years of betrayal trauma and emotional abuse.
Will I Ever Be Okay? Anne’s 2018 Update
Nov 20, 2018
Anne shares how she's feeling about her recovery from emotional abuse, betrayal, and domestic violence at the beginning of 2018.
How To Teach Your Kids About Healthy Sexuality
Nov 13, 2018
Sheri Christensen breaks down the importance of, and how to, talk to your children about healthy sexuality - and offers even more information in her book.
Your Self-Care Matters: I’m Enough & I’m Empowered
Nov 06, 2018
When Anne had a personal bra-fitting by Courtney, she didn't expect to find healing and empowerment. Courtney and Anne share their experience.
Anne’s Thoughts On 12-Step for Betrayal Trauma
Oct 30, 2018
Anne's early years of recovery included participation in a 12-step program: she shares her feelings about 12-step, grief, and healing from betrayal trauma.
I Want To Trust My Gut – But How?!
Oct 23, 2018
Reconnecting with your gut instincts after betrayal can feel daunting - but you can do it! Dr. Piper Grant shares her expertise regarding women's intuition.
How To Rediscover Hope and Freedom After Betrayal
Oct 16, 2018
Explore Lynn Marie Cherry's journey after betrayal. Rediscover hope and freedom with bite-sized insights for moving forward.
How To Inoculate Kids From the Damage of Porn
Oct 09, 2018
Is it even possible to inoculate kids from the damage of pornography? YES! Kristen Jensen is on the podcast sharing practical tips & more.
How to Restore Faith After Intimate Betrayal
Oct 02, 2018
Did intimate betrayal lead to a faith crisis? You're not alone. Learn how to restore faith after intimate betrayal with Lisa Taylor
4 Ways Your Husband is Emotionally Abusive
Sep 25, 2018
Learn what emotional abuse looks like and how to find safety.
My Porn-Addicted Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me
Sep 18, 2018
Women in betrayal trauma wonder why addiction treatment programs aren't working for their sexually addicted partners. BTR explains why.
Is Healthy Sex Possible After Intimate Betrayal?
Sep 11, 2018
Victims of betrayal trauma and emotional abuse wonder if they will ever enjoy sex again. Healing is possible; BTR can help.
How to Establish Sexual Safety After Intimate Betrayal
Sep 04, 2018
Victims of betrayal trauma and emotional abuse wonder how to navigate sexual intimacy after betrayal. BTR can help.
3 Steps to Protect Our Children Starting NOW
Aug 28, 2018
Victims of emotional abuse can be effective parents in teaching their children how to set boundaries that will protect them from sexual abuse. BTR can help.
Dr. Barbara Steffens on Treatment-Induced Trauma
Aug 21, 2018
Dr. Barbara Steffens is on the podcast explaining what treatment-induced trauma is, and how to equip ourselves to choose safe treatment for trauma.
4 Ways Your Husband is Gaslighting You
Aug 14, 2018
Gaslighting is hard to spot - Anne discusses her thoughts on gaslighting and shares an informative article on how to identify gaslighting in your marriage.
50 Things You Need To Know About Betrayal Trauma
Aug 07, 2018
New to BTR.ORG? Hearing unfamiliar terms? Here are 50 terms that will help you navigate our podcast and website as you begin your journey to healing.
My Husband Has an Anger Problem (Is This Abuse?)
Jul 31, 2018
Does your husband's anger scare you? Anne asks important questions to help you determine if your husband's anger is actually an abuse issue.