Artificial Intelligence (AI) In Publishing With Thad McIlroy
Aug 12, 2024
How are publishers using AI and what are the potential use cases in the future? Why is this an exciting time in publishing for those who use the new tools to expand their creative possibilities? Thad McIlroy and I have a wonderful discussion about the current state of AI in publishing, and where we think it might be going next.
Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.
Thad McIlroy is a nonfiction author and contributing editor, writing at the intersection of AI and book publishing, as well as a publishing consultant. His latest book is The AI Revolution in Book Publishing: A Concise Guide to Navigating Artificial Intelligence for Writers and Publishers.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Why is generative AI so controversial in publishing?
Ways in which traditional publishers are using AI tools
How platforms are monitoring and placing guidelines on AI work — and why Ingram blocked his book
The future of licensing — and synthetic data
The increasing importance of high-quality print books
Generative AI search and book discoverability
Why Thad thinks this is the most exciting time in his 50 year career in publishing
Joanna: Thad McIlroy is a nonfiction author and contributing editor, writing at the intersection of AI and book publishing, as well as a publishing consultant. His latest book is The AI Revolution in Book Publishing: A Concise Guide to Navigating Artificial Intelligence for Writers and Publishers. So welcome back to the show, Thad.
Thad: Thank you very much, Joanna. It's good to be back. I was thinking, did we start talking first maybe 10 years ago, that we've been staying in touch?
Joanna: Yes, I think so. You've been on the show several times, and I always read your site, The Future of Publishing. It's so good that we're on the same page now, I think, with AI.
Thad: We are, indeed.
Joanna: So let's get into it. I mean, in this industry, we've all been using aspects of AI in publishing for years. Like the Amazon algorithms, for example, or Google search.
Why is the use of generative AI, in particular, so emotional and controversial in the publishing industry, when other businesses are adopting it with enthusiasm?
I know my husband's company is doing it, and there's lots of companies rolling things out, but in publishing, it seems like a no-no.
Thad: It really does, and it's such a fraught topic. It is such an awkward time to be talking to folks about technology when it's just explosive in many ways and suddenly an untouchable.
I think there's more than one aspect to it, right? There's, on the one hand, this feeling of having been violated. There's so much press about AI companies having hoovered up, as is often said, the content. People have this sense —
Authors have this sense, that every book of theirs has already been ingested into an AI system, which is thoroughly inaccurate.
If you're not following the story closely, and you hear stories of hundreds of thousands of books, you don't have any sense as an author of the fact that it was actually a relatively small number of books that got into some of these large language models. Regardless, the sense is that everything got hoovered up.
Then I think there's a secondary sense that I get from some of my author friends where they say, “Well, if my books are already in there, then the AI can recreate books like mine, and that will push me out of business,” that kind of sense.
That's a hard one to explain exactly why that's not likely to be true in any reasonable way. Then I get a sense from people, too, there's a lot of mystique around AI. Giving it a name like artificial intelligence, and all this science fiction, and so on.
So there's that kind of technological apprehension, which again, you can understand that. Then that leads to this sort of sense that these machines are going to try and take over creativity, which again, is a real sense of violation. So all those things are churning around at the same time.
Joanna: It's so interesting, isn't it? Like that last one, ‘will machines take over creativity?' Or people who leave comments on people like me and other people or use AI saying, “Oh, you should write your own books,” when I've got like 15 years of doing this. It's that somehow it's taking something away. Whereas I was working with Claude.ai earlier today —
I feel so much more creative when I work with Claude and Chat.
Is that the sense you get? I guess where I'm going with this is, so much of the criticism is from people who haven't even tried these models in a proper way, like without a terrible prompt.
Thad: Yes. Yes, exactly. I see people, they'll try ChatGPT, usually that one first, sometimes Claude, whatever. Let's say ChatGPT, they try it, they do a couple of prompts, and the first one you do, you're just kind of amazed. “Wow, it sort of talks to me.”
Then you do the second one and the third one and think, well, it's not really answering the way I thought it would. It's not very clever with what it's saying. Then they'll abandon it. I've talked to so many people who've abandoned it so quickly.
Ethan Mollick, that guy who wroteCo-Intelligence, which I consider the best kind of starter guide to AI, all round starter guide, he says —
You need 10 hours. That's his rough rule of the law of how to expose yourself to the technology before you can abandon it.
You know, after 10 hours, you can say, no, to hell with this, it's not for me. By that point, you've exposed yourself, you've worked with it. You know what it can do, and then you can make an informed choice.
Joanna: Yes, I think that's right. To me, the sense of curiosity and play is so important. It's iterative. I've been using the tools now, and I know you have too, for several years now, these generative ones.
I've been using Midjourney. I've just been playing with version 6.1 which is just being released on Midjourney. Obviously, Claude 3.5 Sonnet is the latest there. Just as we speak today, there's some beta things from ChatGPT around a massive output.
So this is moving really fast. I know different indie authors using generative AI for different things already. But in your book, you do outline ways that traditional publishers are looking at using generative AI tools.
In what ways are publishers using these [generative AI] tools?
Thad: In the book, I go at it from two angles. One, I have a short chapter where I quote from the Big Five because a lot of people in publishing look to them—not necessarily for guidance, it's not like they're going to inform us on the smart way to do these things—but what does HarperCollins say? What does Penguin Random House say? So I got a little section on that. Each of them are sort of tentatively feeling their way through it.
Hachette makes a really interesting distinction, where they say that there are two kinds of ways to use AI, operationally or creatively.
We being a creative house, we banished the use of AI for creativity within Hachette, but we'll use it operationally. You think, well, good luck with that differentiation.
So then there's a whole series of use cases, which I think many of your listeners would be familiar with because publishers are using it in some of the same ways that independent authors are using it.
Whether it be editorially for kind of developmental tasks, or in marketing. Of course, there's lots of interesting use cases for marketing. I think both authors and publishers are doing some nifty things there.
A little bit around production, that seems to be sort of easing in so far. I see it on every side. For a while, it was like, well, it doesn't do much here, but it does more stuff there. Now it seems that it touches everything.
Joanna: Yes, you mentioned the difference between operational and creative. To me, things like marketing have to be creative. They might mean the writing of the book, but sometimes I feel like they're saying these things just to not get authors annoyed.
Thad: Exactly. Clearly, that's what it is.
Joanna: Yes, because I guess on audiobooks, you have a little bit on audiobooks in there, and I can't remember which publisher it is that's now using ElevenLabs for some audio.
Thad: I think Simon & Schuster made a little announcement around that, or maybe it was HarperCollins, who knows which one of the Big Five.
Yes, one of them did announce that, and I'm working with ElevenLabs on my audio.
Joanna: Oh, are you for this book?
Thad: Yes.
Joanna: That's interesting because, yes, I started using them. The biggest problem right now with the ElevenLabs file is even though they probably are the best of breed service for AI audio—I mean, there's Google, but they don't have enough voices, whereas ElevenLabs has so many—but Spotify won't accept their files right now, as we record this at the end of July 2024.
Of course, ACX won't either, because they still only take human files. So this is my pick—
My pick is that either Spotify is going to buy ElevenLabs or that they will allow ElevenLabs files by the end of 2024. What do you think about this?
Thad: I'm with you on that. I mean, because ACX has partially backed down, right? They're still sort of publicly pooh-poohing it, but you can do through ACX an automated workflow which they're reluctantly accepting. Some of those files are now apparently in Audible, so Amazon has stepped back.
I think that all of the companies will see that they have no choice but to accept these files. The whole idea that they're not good enough is clearly untrue at this point. They may not be quite as excellent as if you spend $20,000 on a top tier production, but they're very, very good for the average listener.
Joanna: Yes, and actually, ACX officially doesn't do that, but Amazon KDP has a beta program for US indie authors. So US only, where you can opt in and use their AI generation, but it's published through KDP, not through ACX.
News Corp obviously owns HarperCollins, which wasn't included in the licensing, but I mean, who knows. Then recently, an academic publisher Taylor & Francis licensed books to Microsoft.
What do you think about licensing data to the AI companies?
Are people going to just say, “Alright, we're just going to forget the past. Give us some money,” and it'll shake out that way?
Thad: All is forgiven, that'll be the day. It's so complicated, right? There's so many things at play here, and there's not going to be any easy answers. The outcome, I think, is going to play out over years. This is not something we'll be resolving later this year or early next, anything like that.
For the AI companies, it's clearly impossible to pay for everything. There's just too much content out there. Unless it's a penny a piece kind of thing, there's no way they can license the whole of the web and all of the books that are out there. It's just not viable.
So they're coming up with these short-term licenses. The way I keep looking at those is that when they're standing in front of the judge later this year, next year, on the first court cases, they can say, “Oh, no, we respect copyright. We're doing some of these licenses to demonstrate our respect.”
The judge is going to have to rule on it, and then on appeal, and appeal after that, whether or not it's a fair use. The initial original sin, whether that was fair use under the complexity of the law of fair use.
Simplifying the fair use is the notion that is it fair for an engine to ingest copyrighted content, not to reuse it verbatim, but to learn from it the way we learn as human beings reading content? That's the sort of pro argument.
The other argument is no, you're stealing all this copyrighted content. So when the courts determine on that, let's assume that the courts side with the AI companies and say no, you don't have to pay money.
That's great that you're showing your willingness to do some licensing, but no, legally, you're not required to do so. Then the licenses will disappear very, very quickly at that point. I think they're just trying to make nice at this point during the litigation.
Joanna: Yes, you used the word “fair” before. I mean, what is legal or what is accepted as fair? I mean, fair is so difficult a word.
The reality is with this technology, publishing and books are such a tiny, tiny, tiny perspective of generative AI.
Of course, DeepMind has the AlphaFold which does protein folding. So my husband works for a drug company, so I very much follow drug development, drug discovery, all of that kind of stuff. We've got some incredible challenges in humanity that these tools will be useful for.
Sometimes I just think, look, it doesn't matter. The rest of it doesn't matter. Save the planet, save us all from all these awful diseases, and you can have your data.
That's sometimes how I think about it.
Thad: Me too. When you think of how important these medical advances are, and clearly they are enabled by this technology. I mean, it's unambiguous that they're getting this enormous value from the technology.
Then you come back to publishing and you say, calm down people. You're actually kind of small potatoes in the whole picture here.
Joanna: Yes, exactly. Although, obviously, we respect you, and I respect copyright and all of that kind of thing, and we would like to make money ourselves.
The other thing on the licensing, you mentioned that a lot of these licenses for a couple of years. I like your angle around the court cases and looking good.
The other thing is that there has been some papers coming out on synthetic data. Some of the new Claude models originally—I say originally, you know how fast it goes—but people have said, “Oh, the models are going to run out of data, and if they ingest their own data, it's just a load of sludge.”
Synthetic data itself may replace the need to license human data.
Thad: I agree with that. I bet for your listeners that synthetic data is something that's over their heads understandably. You allude to how that works.
You use the AI to create more text or more images that are, in fact, derivative of their existing engine, but appear as if fresh, as if new, and can be ingested without spoiling the pool. I mean, if that's workable, which I still hear some controversy back and forth on that, but it only makes sense that that could be solved as a problem.
So this book I've just done on AI and book publishing, they don't need my book. They don't need it at all. There's no reason in the world for them to license my book.
Joanna: Yes, that is a good point, actually. Last year, and I know you referenced it in the book, which I was very thrilled about, my article on how generative search was going to change things. This is one of the reasons I've kind of stepped back from self-help books and nonfiction that can be done in other ways.
A lot of the questions that I answer in those books, you can now find through the generative AI. So I've moved much more into the kind of writing where you can't get it from one of these tools.
What I liked about your book, even though you say they wouldn't need it, it's still your organization and your take on the industry. Of course, you've got a platform and people respect your opinion. So I think in that way, what you wrote was not something that could have come out of an AI system in that form.
I think it's worth reminding people that it's still worth writing these books — from a personal perspective.
Thad: Oh, yes. Absolutely. The point you're raising around nonfiction, I agree with you. I've been interviewing a bunch of people and not reporting on it as yet because I'm still trying to figure out exactly how this is going to play out.
Certainly, what we're seeing around the possibilities of AI with nonfiction is exceptional, is extraordinary. There it kind of loops over into the whole education space.
The amount of innovation on the education side, it doesn't quite parallel on the health side or on the health and medicine side, but it is closer to that than it is to publishing. We're seeing some really interesting tech there.
What's the difference between a child in high school or you and I trying to find out the same information? So I think the education space is quite analogous to the nonfiction trade publishing space.
I don't hold out a lot of hope for the existing container, as I keep coming back to that term “container” in the book. The way we express our books right now, we have a very particular mental model of the book container, and I think we have to break that down.
It's not to say that we don't still have a role as authors in creating content, but we have to get away from just thinking it's in 12 chapters, 243 pages, that kind of thing. It can't just be that anymore.
Joanna: I like this idea of the container. What was interesting, there was an article in The Verge by the CEO of The Atlantic, I don't know if you read that about why they did the licensing. He actually said,
“Thank goodness, we have a print magazine, and thank goodness, we have an email list.”
That just made me laugh because myself, and many other indie authors now, we're moving into special print editions. So I've just done my third Kickstarter of silver foil and hardback, and all the things that traditional publishers have specialized in, we're now doing in order to change the container.
So, of course, you can still get my book as an eBook, but I also have these more expensive containers that mean I can still make a living. So, I mean, do you see that happening more, is that digital changes, but print just gets higher and higher quality?
Thad: Yes, I see it on two separate directions. Absolutely, print getting higher quality. I've been considering that for years because as the world becomes more atomized and digitized, the affordances of print become more precious and more remarkable.
Paying attention to print as a tangible instance of creative expression makes perfect sense.
I'm delighted to see authors thinking through all of these opportunities and deluxe editions, that kind of thing.
At the same time, to me, the de-containerization of publishing should also be towards video expression, more expression with audio, multiple languages. So it's also de-containerizing within the digital sphere.
Let's move into search because I think another reason that the licensing is happening with things like, let's say The Financial Times, which I read here in the UK, is that a lot of people are starting to move their searches into ChatGPT.
So I mainly use ChatGPT for search and browsing. Of course, Bing is taking market share in the background from Google. That's my main way I find books now is I will go and have a chat with Chat about a various topic, and then I'll ask for books.
How do you think this generative AI search is going to change book discoverability?
Because publishers use traditional media and search so much right now.
Thad: They sure do, and I'm concerned. I mean, I'm glad to hear that you're using ChatGPT in that way. I'm not sure—well, let's try a different angle.
As you said, to treat ChatGPT, for example, as a search engine per se, is not what it was designed to be. So it's not designed to be a fact engine, or it was not originally designed to be, let's say.
Now as they mature a little bit, and they look at the existing landscape, and they see that Google search has been most people's conduit into the web and there's no way to take over the world without embracing the reality that people interact with the world wide web via the search metaphor.
People want to be able to ask questions and get answers, which again, I don't think it's the optimal use for a large language model, but it is a use when combined with a certain factual database.
So I feel like there's going to be a bifurcation within the availability of these engines, the features of these engines, some of which will be fact-oriented, and others will be more creative-oriented, or uses of the LLM that are not necessarily fact-related dependent on fact.
ChatGPT, they're productizing it, as you say, as SearchGPT, recognizing that bifurcation, that search is an individualized function that's not everything that we want to do. That didn't answer your question, I realized.
What does this do to book discoverability? I am actually sort of more worried about it for publishers, on behalf of publishers and authors, because of the thing of being able to get the answers they need.
Like you can get a sufficient answer to many of your questions via these SeachGPTs, let's say. If you can get that answer without having to go to the book, without having to be even aware that there's a book on that topic, discoverability is going to be a whole different kind of challenge for authors and publishers.
Joanna: Yes, and it's funny, one example is gardening. So I've never been into gardening, but now I'm like, I'm 49, I've got a garden, and I decided this year, like seriously, I need to do some gardening. What's so awesome is you can take a picture.
I took a picture of my very messy garden and uploaded it to ChatGPT and said, “Okay, this is my garden. This is where I am in the world. Give me some ideas for garden design.”
Then from there, I carried on chatting around, “Okay, what kind of plants could I put up that would have flowers and that my cats wouldn't die of?” and all of this.
The questions I asked, like, “If I go to the garden center, like what's my list of the things I need to buy?” A couple of years ago, I would have bought a book on gardening, or 10 books on gardening. I'm very aware that my behavior is changing.
Actually, just on book discoverability—I don't know if you knew this, I put it in my article—but I've gone back to trying to focus more on Goodreads because I found that when asking ChatGPT, “Find me books with stonemasons in,” for example, that it would use Goodreads reviews, as well as Amazon, Shopify and book blogs.
Thad: Well, I've done a giveaway on Goodreads with my book. Going on to Goodreads, which I hadn't been on in a while because I'd pretty much given up on it, it's a bit of a waste land, in some sense. Like many of my colleagues who were active as I was some years ago on Goodreads, haven't been for years.
I was looking at my old friends on Goodreads and seeing that they haven't done a thing. So that was a bit discouraging, but at the same time, it's really vibrant in other ways. It still is kind of one of a kind. So it has a role to play.
We're raising several things there too because one of the concerns were authors would say, “Well, it knows about my book.”
It knows about your book not because it read your book, but because it read Goodreads and it read what everybody says about your book.
So that's how it got to know. So it didn't actually steal your book, it stole what people said about your book, which wasn't copyrighted. Or technically maybe it was copyrighted, but in reality, anyone could scrape it. So that's another aspect of Goodreads.
The other thing I'm thinking of as you're saying that because you just raised wonderful several issues there, but on the gardening side, you don't see a heck of a lot of books in bookstores on gardening anymore.
One of the things I've been pondering is the cookbooks, right? Because you obviously don't need cookbooks anymore. I mean, ChatGPT and its brethren do wonderful jobs with recipes. You tell what ingredients you've got, and it can give you 22 recipes.
People buy cookbooks because they're beautiful objects and they're a beautiful presentation format.
I think that's something that authors need to ponder still. They buy travel books too. ChatGPT does a great job on travel-related queries, and yet people still buy those books.
So it's a good provocation to authors to say, well, look at what the machine can do, and then think about what you can do far better than the machine. There will always be things that we can do better than the machines.
Joanna: Yes, I totally agree, and that is definitely the way I'm thinking. You're right on the cooking. I do that too. I use it all the time for cooking. It is just so useful.
Okay, just going back to the book. Just to read a quote, you say,
“When publishers look at AI, they see few opportunities. When I talk to authors about AI, the world is their oyster.”
So I love that, and you say the possibilities are near endless. We've talked about some of those, and I am super positive always on the show. I know there are negative sides, I know there are issues, but I choose to be a techno-optimist.
Many authors are scared, and they're scared of, as you mentioned, some of the things at the beginning. They also worry about submitting to agents or publishers or competitions around where is the line when it comes to what do they count as using AI?
For example, ProWritingAid and Grammarly, which so many people use as part of the editing process, they are now powered by ChatGPT and AI models.
So if you're using any editing software, and we recommend that people should, as well as work with human editors, it's like that is completely different to clicking a button and then just publishing what you output. What do you think as to this disclosure? I mean, most agents and publishers don't even have an AI policy on their website.
What should authors be thinking around AI usage if they want to submit to the more traditional industry?
Thad: There's so much confusion. As you saw, you know, Ingram flagged my book for using AI. It was so deliciously ironic that here's this book that's meant to be an examination of the use of AI in writing and publishing, getting flagged by an AI algorithm that Ingram uses.
It therefore detected AI was in the book, in a section of my book that discusses on how authors can use ChatGPT interfaces kind of thing. So that false identification shows that there's a lot of confusion still out there.
So on the one hand, they know that they don't want this, as you're saying, this unfiltered AI-generated text. That seems pretty clear that we don't want that stuff somehow slipping into the ecosphere.
With the ProWritingAid and all of that, you know, how much AI-generated text is there if you run a chapter of your book through ChatGPT and say, “Give me some constructive suggestions on how to improve this chapter.”
You see that list, and then you use your own skills and your own verbiage to make those changes. Well, it is AI-assisted at that point by any sort of definition. Of course, that's something that the algorithms are not going to be able to pick up on. So all of that, it's kind of long windedness on my part.
We did a webinar back in May, looking very specifically at AI detection and how good the AI-detection software is. It's good, but it makes mistakes like everything else.
No machine can reliably detect whether AI was used if someone puts their mind to not being sloppy about it.
So it can't be found, but then it's like, why, publisher, do you want to find this? Again, it's that kind of that inkling of fear where they're, “We don't want whole books with authors lying about their use of it.” Well, that's not what's going to happen, publisher. That's not the way it's going to play out.
You're going to be able to spot those books without a machine.
Just calm down, accept the fact that authors are starting to use these tools very productively and very constructively, and that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing.
Joanna: It just feels like it's going to take some time before everyone calms down, and before everyone realizes that they are using the tools.
For example, book cover design, there's this sort of vocal anti-AI imagery. Now, Adobe Photoshop and all the main tools use AI in their packages.
I don't even know how anyone can do a book cover right now without using some form of AI. In the same way that these editing softwares have AI in. So it's almost like the lines are so blurred.
Thad: They are. I've talked to a designer, I was on a seminar in Denver a few months ago, and this designer is absolutely fastidious, “We don't allow AI, blah, blah, blah.” So you see those kind of camps too, where they will not let AI touch any of this or that, anything. Well, like you're saying, that's going to change really quickly.
Joanna: Yes, or people are going to have to be painting. Well, then even say you do a painting that you want on the front cover of a book, you still have to take a picture of it, and most of the photo editing software has AI in it.
So I almost wonder if this is—and I've said this before—this year one, this is like sort of 2007 for eBooks. You remember all that stuff. “Oh, these are awful. No one's ever going to do this,” and the tsunami of crap for self-publishing. It just feels like that time.
Thad: Yes, indeed. Ethan Mollick makes this point that I've seen a couple other people make too, this is the worst AI you'll ever be working with.
So there's moments where for you and I where we're going, “Oh, wow, I can do this, I can do this,” and then you hear someone say, “This is the worst that you're ever going to see.” It's going to get an order of magnitude better, and you try and get your mind around that at this point. Clearly, that's the case. This is 2007 in eBooks.
If you play it out three years from now, five years from now, it's really going to be exceptional.
You also have a point with the Apple AI. Some people are commenting on their approach of trying to make the AI invisible, which in a sense, is what ProWritingAid and Grammarly do. The AI is semi-visible, but it works in the background, as it does with other spell checkers and grammar checkers.
Apple is kind of intimating a future where everything is AI-enabled and nothing is AI-specific.
Joanna: Yes, and the letters “AI” is a bit like the internet. It's almost meaningless as a term because it encompasses so much.
Our life, and our business practices, and our creativity changed so much with the internet, and they're going to change so much over the next 20 years with AI.
I mean, I love it. I'm grinning here. I know you're grinning. We're both excited about this, and I kind of hope that that's what people will come away with.
Let's just keep focusing on what happened to you with Ingram for a minute because this is what people are worried about. They're worried about being banned by this overenthusiastic algorithm, and not everyone is Thad. You were able to get ahold of Ingram, and they're helping you sort it out.
For example, Amazon's algorithm has banned people not actually necessarily over AI use, because you can just tell Amazon that you're using AI now, there's a disclosure thing when you publish, but this kind of thing is what people worry about.
If a ‘normal' author listening has an Ingram issue, is there a process to follow in terms of appeal? Where do you think the lines are?
Thad: Yes, I was lucky in that sense. Although, I would have stood my ground. I wasn't trying to say to them, you should give me an exemption and pay attention to my problem. I was just trying to raise the issue.
I think every reasonable person accepts that these platforms do need to curate the content that they release into the public. We don't want hate, we don't want this, we don't want that, we don't want sexual, whatever kind of content. So we accept that there has to be some kind of filtering. Good, okay.
So then these platforms say they're also filtering around AI, which Ingram claims they're doing at this point in a less subtle way than Amazon is. So books are going to get caught, and again, as you say, sometimes for AI and sometimes for other things.
The way Ingram does it right now, I got the notice on Friday, there's a button saying, “Click here to appeal it,” click, register your appeal with a one little one line box in which you can explain why you're appealing. Then you get an acknowledgment back saying, we'll get back to you within two weeks.
Then I Googled it, and I could see on Reddit and other places, “I got banned by Ingram, and it took two months to get it resolved.” Well, that's ludicrous, and that was the big point I was trying to make to Ingram. It's because you're so powerful, you have a responsibility that comes with that power.
You cannot just banish someone and tell them that the invisible court of appeal may or may not get back to them within two weeks or two months. That's not a workable system.
It's just way more powerful together I think is the thing. An individual author doesn't have so much say.
I wanted to just return to what you said earlier, which was these platforms don't want this unfiltered AI generation, and that these are the worst models we're ever going to get.
I definitely found Claude 3.5 Sonnet, I had a real moment. I've had a couple of these moments, I'm sure you have too, when you're like, oh, my goodness.
It was interesting with Sonnet because I was thinking, do you know what, I already do not consider myself the best writer in the world. It's never been a thing where I've thought, oh, well, I have to be the best writer, because we know that's completely ridiculous.
If an AI system is a better writer than me, how big a deal is that?
Then I decided, actually, that wasn't a big deal because it has far more data than me, a “bigger brain,” in inverted commas, and thus it comes to, well, what is the nature of what we do?
It's about our creativity and about our spark that starts the process. My process is changing, but what I want to create continues.
These bots and agents as they emerge later on this year, next year, they're going to do my creative bidding, as such.
That, to me, is very exciting, but the reality is there are companies now that are looking at generating to market. So for example—
Let's say you type in a search term, and then the AI can generate a book to fit that.
That's what people are scared of. So how are you navigating this? I mean, we talked a bit about nonfiction, but what about fiction and the different forms of creativity people have?
Thad: That is such a great heart of darkness concern. Indeed, when you try to ponder, let's say genre fiction, because it's easy to talk about genre fiction, because in one sense, the essence of genre is repeatability. You're giving people more of what they actually want, in a sense.
They're reading within a genre, so they want books that fit within that. Sometimes it's a looser definition, but it is a constraint. The genre defines a constraint versus so called literary fiction, which supposedly has no constraints.
So it's easier to imagine the machine taking on the challenge of writing within a particular narrow genre, and perhaps succeeding in producing a work that a reader would enjoy as much as they might enjoy something that a human had created within that same genre.
I don't think it's possible today, but it certainly is conceivable for you or I to see that two years from now, whatever, a little bit down the road.
For some reason, I can't get worried about that, the scenario in which all creative writers are supplanted by machines. It doesn't ring true for some reason. As much as I'm enthusiastic, and as much as I think there's so much promise here, I just don't see the human in the loop disappearing.
Even if creative writers rely more and more on these tools, it's still their unique take on the way they use the tools, and what they accept from the tools, and what they ultimately pull together as the whole manuscript.
That's going to be human adjudicated to whatever extent, as far as I can see, as we move forward. I'm not afraid of the machine replacing the author.
Joanna: No, I agree with you from the author perspective.
We are the creative ones. We create. We're never going to stop creating. What is changing is the business model.
If you think about some of the very genre specific publishers who have imprints where they really do have rules that they give to writers, “Follow these rules for this type of book.” You know who they are, we don't need to mention them, but there are those publishers.
I look at them and I think, their dataset, if they fine tune one of these models. I mean, they're already paying authors very little money for these types of books. Those are the types of publishers who I think may well be looking at this now.
The business person in me goes, they would be crazy not to be looking at this. So almost like, no, I agree with you. I'm not scared at all. Humans are going to keep doing human things.
Publishers who are businesses, with big datasets, who return money to shareholders, it's a different story.
Am I being unfair there? They do have big datasets.
Thad: Indeed. I mean, you can see the possibility that some portion of the marketplace is subsumed in that way. When you put it that way, I can certainly see it.
When I think about the issue around—let's switch it over for a second to book translation. There's another one where translators are justifiably very apprehensive about the future of humans in the translation of books.
My book I've had translated using ChatGPT into 31 languages.
No human who was fluent in those languages has looked at those books. I did some quality checking by doing a reverse translation afterwards.
I translated it into French, and then use ChatGPT to translate the French back into English and compared the English, and it was fascinating actually how close it was and how different it was. It was acceptable, it was good enough, for sure.
So, clearly some portion of the people who work in translation, that work is disappearing. Other work, the higher level translation work, one study I just saw a couple of days ago is showing that that work is actually increasing.
The more talented and more skilled translators are getting more work, while the less skilled ones are getting less work.
So not to be a pejorative around genre writing, I know there's a lot of arbitrariness in these kinds of distinctions, but you could see that some portion of the writing profession could be curtailed with these tools.
Joanna: Which is why I focus much more on author brand. I mean, that's what I love about Kickstarter and our Shopify stores now, is that we're not competing on a marketplace like Amazon. We are going to our customers and doing email marketing and all of this kind of thing.
What you write and connecting with people becomes so much more important.
So as we come to a close, I do want to finish on a positive note, because as I said, you and I both techno optimist. So what are you excited about and—
What attitude will serve authors listening as we all try to surf this wave of change?
Thad: I've been working in publishing now over 50 years, which is like saying I'm a million years old, and therefore should be put out to pasture. And yet, this is the most exciting moment I've seen in publishing in those 50 years.
I couldn't be more delighted with what's going on and more optimistic about the future of creativity, of creative expression, of the ability to reach readers, and to delight readers with creative output.
It takes a really open mind. You have to get beyond the container. As you're saying, you as an author, you're redefining your own role. You have to be willing to redefine your role to take advantage of the opportunities that are here, because there are a gazillion opportunities.
Joanna: Yes, exciting times. I hope we'll keep having these conversations.
Thad: One of the things we didn't talk about, of course, is that—
I use the Leanpub platform, which not enough authors are aware of.
Joanna: Oh yes, tell us a bit more about that.
Thad: Leanpub is fascinating. It's mostly technical books that end up on there, which it shouldn't only be those, but it is pretty much so far.
I wrote the book about AI, which is obviously changing so quickly, therefore you think, well, doing a book is ludicrous. With the Leanpub platform, it allows you to continually revise the work, and people who buy from you on that platform, they get updates that are built into the platform.
So if you want to get the ongoing updated version of the book it is on Leanpub. If you want a print version or a Kindle version, of course, it's on Amazon. It's on all the other platforms.
The only updated version, which is the same price as the Kindle version, is available through Leanpub.
Joanna: Those translations you mentioned, are they all on Leanpub as well? Or are they on Amazon?
Thad: Well, that's another big thing that we'll do a separate show on. I called up Michael Tamblyn, the guy runs Kobo, and said, “Michael, I'm not going to upload 31 translations on Kobo. You're going to have to find a way where I can upload once and somehow link these translations,” which is what Leanpub offers.
If you go to the English page for my book on Leanpub, you'll find all 31 translations there. They're linked to sort of the mother page. There's an anglocentric conception there that each of the other languages are adjunct to the English version, which makes sense. It is non obvious, but it does make sense.
So in the short term, to be able to take advantage of this technology and create. I mean, I could have done 50 translations, but I'm not going to upload 50 different files each with a separate ISBN to Amazon. So there's a big transition going on there.
Joanna: That is so interesting. I think the same for audiobooks. You should just be able to change the voice, change the language, change whatever you want on an app. You shouldn't have to just take the one thing. It's the container, like you said. I love that idea.
Thad: Have you used the ElevenLab's reader? The one they released a few weeks ago.
Thad: You can have Judy Garland or Laurence Olivier reading your book. So I put my book into Sir Laurence reading it. It is so hilarious to hear his voice, his wonderful accent reading your book. You think, well, what's the future of audiobooks if you can just read the eBook?
The only thing that's going to prevent that is DRM, but more and more people are going to say, no, you don't have to create a separate audiobook, you work with one of these reading systems that does a 99.9% good enough job just taking your book on the fly.
Joanna: Exciting times. I love that after 50 years in the business, you're still experimenting and trying new things. You know, you're my hero. That's what I want to be like!
Thad: You will be. I know you will be.
Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Thad. That was great.
Heart. Soul. Pen. Find Your Voice on the Page With Robin Finn
Aug 05, 2024
How can you write freely and release any blocks that are holding you back? How can you focus on the strengths in your writing and avoid critical voice? Robin Finn gives plenty of writing tips in this interview.
Today’s show is sponsored by Findaway Voices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project.
Joanna: Robin Finn is an award-winning writer, teacher, and coach, and the author of Heart. Soul. Pen.: Find Your Voice on the Page and In Your Life. So welcome to the show, Robin.
Robin: Thank you so much for having me.
Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
Robin: Well, my story is a little meandering. I really was a writer when I was a child, but I sort of tucked that away for decades.
Then years later, after I became a mom, I had a child with severe hyperactivity. It made parenting so difficult and excruciating, particularly the judgment that I got from all the other parents, that I ultimately ended up writing as a means of healing.
I wrote, originally, a lot of personal essays about parenting a child with special needs. That was really the beginning of my writing career.
During the time when I was really actively parenting and really struggling, I ended up going back to school and getting a master's degree in spiritual psychology. Spiritual psychology is a program where you really connect to what is your purpose. One of the things that came out of that program for me is that I'm a writer. So I started to write about parenting a child with special needs.
I was really scared. I had a lot of shame and a lot of judgment about what I was writing.
I went to a conference, and I met some writers, and I decided I'm going to send out one of my essays. To my shock, it was accepted. Then when I saw it online, I was so shocked and scared, but what happened from that point was I was flooded with emails from other parents, really, Jo, from all over the world.
From Australia and Japan, thanking me for writing this piece and telling me they were having a similar experience. That connecting with others and realizing how healing writing can be, not just for myself, but for other people, really spurred me on to publish my work.
Then from there, it was really, again, like I was reached out to by so many women asking me about writing and about how they also were having experiences they wanted to write about.
So I sort of blended my background in public health, spiritual psychology and writing, and I created this program called “Heart. Soul. Pen.” for women writers to find their voice. I taught this program for many years, and then ultimately, it became the book.
Joanna: That's so lovely for you to share those feelings. It really strikes me. We've only been on the phone like three minutes, and you've used the words judgment, shame, scared, shocked. These are all really emotional words to use about writing.
I know there's people listening, I've certainly felt it myself, I wrote a book last year—well, it was written over a long time, I published it last year—called Writing the Shadow, which is based on the Jungian idea of Shadow. I cut some things out of that book because of some of those things you're talking about. So if people listening feel the same thing, they feel that fear of judgment, they feel that shame—
How did you get past those things in order to share that first essay?
Like that first step before you got the feedback, how did you do that?
Robin: Well, it's a really good question because when I was writing the book, Heart. Soul. Pen., I had been teaching “Heart. Soul. Pen.” for years, but I literally didn't know what it was I was teaching.
It's such an intuitive process that I had to be like, okay, wait, how can I make into a system what I'm doing? It's interesting you bring this up, because the first step of the book is called “Revise and Release Limiting Beliefs.” That's step one.
I literally take you through how I did that with parenting and how it really applied to writing. This idea of writing down what I believed about myself as a mother.
That was the despair that brought me to spiritual psychology school was this idea that I was a failure as a mother because I couldn't fix my son and I couldn't fix my family and make them into this perfect fantasy family.
I had to go through this entire process of writing down what my beliefs were about myself, and then really asking myself, do I even believe my beliefs?
Also asking myself, do these beliefs support me having a joyful, peaceful parenting life? And they really did not.
Then being willing to rewrite the beliefs and then repeat them every day until eventually over time, they became my new belief system.
When I started writing, I literally went back to that very same process, and I outlined it in the book. It is a step-by-step process of being willing to start with examining what do you believe about writing, and about worthiness, and about your own voice, and being willing to write it down and look at it.
I can tell you that a lot of things I believed about my own writing and my own voice were just dumb, just silly. I didn't even believe my own beliefs, but they were there inside of me.
Then being willing to review them and ask myself, if I believe I don't have anything important to say, for example, does that support my goal of writing? Not really.
Am I willing to let that go and replace it with a different belief?
For example, what I have to say is helpful to myself and to others. Writing is a part of who I am. My message is important.
Replacing it with beliefs that support my goals, and then being willing to look at these new beliefs every day, maybe multiple times a day, until they really become my new belief system.
I think for all writers and creatives to be willing to do that step before pen ever goes to paper is so powerful and life changing. I truly believe that.
Joanna: It's interesting. It's a very difficult thing to do, though. You open the book with something that resonated with me, you said, and this is a quote from the book,
“The messages we receive as kids get lodged inside of us and become lifelong limiting beliefs that impact how we live, work, write, create, show up in our lives and relate to others and ourselves.”
It's so interesting because I actually put my experience of school in that book Writing the Shadow, where a teacher basically told me that I couldn't write that kind of thing. That it was too dark, that it was like a nightmare. I shouldn't write that, I should write something nice.
“Write something nice” has sort of become something I resist now. I write dark fiction, for example. It's so interesting, it took me many, many decades to uncover that. So I guess I'm asking—Are these limiting beliefs layers?
So we uncover something that might be obvious, but it takes a while to get down to the lower limiting beliefs.
Robin: Yes. I really love what you're sharing. I can't tell you how many students come to my classes, how many writers with stories like that. I talk about this in the book, how women often feel like, “My writing has to be pretty, my writing has to be good, my writing has to be sunshine and roses,” like what you're saying.
These are not true. These are the types of beliefs that gets stuck inside, and it's very difficult to write when we hold these beliefs. It's not impossible, but I call it “writing through mud.” You can do it, but it's so arduous.
Isn't it more fun to write with flow, to just have the words fall out? Well, if we want to have that kind of flow, we have to be willing to excavate at least a little bit of these limiting beliefs. To your point, they are very layered, but we've got to start somewhere.
In the book, I don't dive into the deepest layers, but I start with how can we look at just the top layer of what we believe about our voice, and our writing, and our worthiness, and start to loosen that up a little bit and create beliefs that really support us in our writing journey?
That's nine tenths of getting rid of the barriers to writing is to let go of these beliefs that what you have to say is too dark, isn't important, is wrong in some way, is shameful. None of that is true.
Joanna: Another thing you raise, you mentioned purpose before, and writing is a purpose.
Many of us think our work is just pointless, or maybe it's boring, or it's been said before, or maybe it seems frivolous in a world where we should be writing something very important, something political, or about health, or something where it's more important than a fictional story.
I mean, sometimes I feel that, and you talk about this myth of the mundane in the book, which I like.
How can we value our writing, whatever that turns out to be?
Robin: I think that's a really beautiful question. One of the things that I do is I offer lots of opportunities to write in community, whether you take a writing class, a course, or a workshop.
Writing in a community that particularly offers strength-based feedback and not critique is so empowering for the writer to see how deeply resonant their words are. It is not true that your daily life is not important. So much of what life is about is the daily aspects of living, and they're metaphors for so much more.
So this idea that writing about my life because I didn't climb Mount Everest isn't important is, again, just a limiting belief, and it's not true.
I had a woman once who wrote about how she had to make chicken and rice every single night for dinner because her kids only ate chicken and rice. When she read the piece, people teared up because it wasn't really about cooking chicken and rice.
It's about someone who loved to cook as an art, and what a prison it felt like to have to make the same meal over and over again, and about wanting to be liberated. It was about so much.
I think the writer would have judged it as not important if they weren't in an environment where they were able to hear from other writers how resonant their story was.
So I do think writing in community where you get an opportunity to hear comments on your work that focus on the strengths and the resonance of your work really helps a writer see how powerful their words are.
Joanna: Yes, and this is obviously one of the keys to good writing is being very specific. Like you mentioned there the chicken and rice, and in my head, I could kind of see that woman reading this and see the sort of bland food she was putting out there.
Writing about that specific situation, as you said, the other people, the readers and the listeners, will bring their own meaning to that. I was thinking it was a form of sacrifice that she was doing this for her family. That, again, it's a universal feeling.
So I love how you explained that. Writing your specific things, other people will turn that into their own message.
Robin: Other people will turn it into their own message, and it will reach the people for whom that message is so deeply meaningful.
The other thing is, the writer doesn't see the value. So letting other people respond to this piece about chicken and rice saying, “Oh my god, motherhood has also felt for me like a prison,” or, “The repetition is so difficult,” or whatever it is that it brings up for other people.
It helps the writer understand that, wow, what I have to say is important and very layered. To judge it as dumb or mundane and then throw away my paper, you're denying everybody the power of your words.
Joanna: So you mentioned a few minutes ago, ‘strengths-based feedback.' All writers have this inner critic and we tear ourselves apart. We also have editors, and readers, and reviewers who also tear our work apart. So we often come from a negative feedback point of view.
Could you explain strengths-based feedback and how we might put that into practice?
Robin: Well, as a teacher and a workshop facilitator, it's really my deepest belief that writers get critical feedback way too early, and I strongly am opposed to that. I think there is a place for critical feedback, but it's much, much later in the writing process.
Most writers they get excited, and then they get feedback, and what happens is the critical feedback really ruins the joy of expression. It confuses us, and it disconnects us from that thread that we're just getting of the story. So I really, really caution writers to not receive critical feedback early on in the work.
Strengths-based feedback really has to do with sharing with the writer what is working in the piece, what is resonant about the piece, what you notice about the piece, and where you might have questions.
I have a little acronym, following the TIDES. That's T-I-D-E-S. that's where you just focus on the themes, images, details, emotions, and structure of a piece.
So for example, someone might read the piece about the chicken and rice, and a fellow writer might say, “The images were so clear to me. I could see the kids sitting at the table. I love the detail about the type of rice she used,” or, “The emotions of how weighty this was for the writer, I really felt the emotions.”
So we share what we notice about the TIDES, and we don't get into the critique. I think that's really important because the place for critique, in my opinion, is much, much later in the writing process.
Joanna: It's really interesting. You talk about writing community, I never do that. I have never been in a writing group because I like being on my own. Also, as you say, I feel too vulnerable. I don't trust that people in a writing group, other writers, understand what you're talking about, for example.
Actually, as writers, we're not normal readers. We instinctively criticize because we've read so much or we've read across multiple genres. Often people might say to a romance writer, “Oh, that is too romantic. Why isn't it more literary?” or whatever.
So there'll be people listening who are in writers’ groups, and they would love their writers’ group to kind of follow this process. You talk about it in the book, obviously, but—
How can we shift that critique process into something more positive if people are in writing groups?
Or maybe they have to find other groups, basically.
Robin: Well, one thing I'd say is I have a whole section in the book devoted to strength-based feedback, following the TIDES. I go through in detail how to do it.
Of course, it's never too late. If you're in a writing group, and you want to try working with strength-based feedback, try looking at the TIDES of the work, you can certainly step by step, you'll learn how to do it in the book.
The other thing is just a quick litmus test for any writer, and I say this to all my students who I work with.
If you're in a writing group, and it makes you want to write less, it's not a good group.
If your writing group makes you want to write more, if your writing group makes you feel enthusiastic about writing, great. If you are in a writing group that makes you feel bad, want to write less, or hang up your pin, then that's just not a good group for you.
I just can't underscore enough how strongly I believe that everyone has a creative voice. People who are drawn to writing are drawn to writing because they're writers.
It is your responsibility to take care of your creative heart and to put yourself in a situation where you are supported and nurtured by the other writers you're working with. If that is not the case, then that is not a group that I would recommend for you.
Joanna: Yes, absolutely. Then, okay, assuming I'm in a group like that now, so say I'm the chicken and rice lady. The reality is maybe 80% of what I've written is not great. With the feedback you've given me on the TIDES principle, as the writer—
Should I focus on strengthening the positive side of things and just ignore fixing up anything people didn't mention?
Or do I just kind of leave that and move on? So I guess I'm asking the response of me, the writer, to that kind of feedback.
Robin: Yes. Well, I think when you read your piece, and you get notes, and people share with you the themes that really resonated, the images, the details, there's also something called trigger lines, where I believe in a piece of writing, there are lines that trigger deeper stories.
Sometimes that will be reflected to the writer too. “Like, wow, that line, ‘I never get what I want,' that was so deep. I'd love to know more about that.”
So I might say to the writer, “Circle that line, there's more there for you to explore.” So when you're done reading your piece, you'll have notes about what really resonated, where people were really moved, what lines maybe have more story.
You'll leave class knowing like, I think there's a whole other story hidden in here that I want, and I may feel very enthusiastic about working on that.
So it's not really a matter of like nothing else that wasn't mentioned matters. It's really just an arrow pointing the writer into, how can I go deeper into this story? How can I excavate further into really getting into the story that wants to be told?
Joanna: Of course, if people are doing this on their own, I mean, like something I do is I'll print it out on paper, and then I might find something and highlight that or underline something where I feel that in my own writing.
It strikes me that you must have a very keen ability to listen both to the words and to the meaning beneath the words. I'd love to know if that's something that you've learned how to do. Is that something you've particularly focused on, or is that something you think you've always had?
Robin: Oh, wow. No one's ever asked me that question before. I bring my whole self to the listening process, and I've been doing this now for a long time. I have honed a lot of these skills in this spiritual psychology realm of really listening not just to the words, but to the energy behind the words.
Also, when you focus your attention on these ideas of what resonates for you, it just becomes very clear. It's a process for sure you can do on your own. I mean, not everybody's going to be in a writing group.
I think that as you, the writer, start to look at your work, I talk about like a kaleidoscope, you shift the lens.
Instead of looking to criticize your work, you're asking yourself, what themes, images, details, emotions, or the structure, what do I notice about my work?
How can I be curious about my work? What can I discover from my work? Instead of looking to criticize your work, you can develop these skills yourself.
To your point, as the writer, you can feel as you reread your work, you can feel the lines that are kind of jumping off the page that want to be double clicked on. There's more story behind them.
You can feel it, and you can hone your own skills as you work with this idea of stopping the criticizing, stopping the judgments, stop the constant, “it's mundane, it's not good enough,” and shift into, “I am going to be curious about what I have to say, and where there might be more story for me.”
I believe for each writer, they'll start to have a different relationship with their own work, and it will start to flow more. It will become more clear what they really want to write about.
Joanna: You mentioned there about ‘feeling the lines,' and what resonates for you, and curiosity. I talk about these things as well.
Of course, in the book, you talk about finding your voice, but it's such a nebulous concept for new writers, in particular, who don't have creative confidence and are always second guessing.
How do people tap into that curiosity?
How can they try to feel the lines if they're listening to you going, well, I just don't know what that is?
Robin: I guess what I'd say is you could get the book and go through the steps. One of them is using a timer, writing faster than you think. Writing to a timer. If you're a new writer, set your timer for three minutes or five minutes, and write as quickly as possible.
The purpose of this is to write faster than you're thinking so that the words are emerging. You're not making them up in your head and putting them on paper, they're actually emerging from a deeper place.
As you do that, time after time, you start to reread your writing and see the themes that just naturally emerge. So if you're trying to find your voice, I'd say one easy way is to start with a regular writing practice where you set a timer, and it could be as little as three or five minutes a few times a week, and just freely write.
Then have an air of curiosity about what comes forward and you start to see what emerges naturally, what is your material. What you are concerned about, what matters to you, will naturally emerge if you get out of the way and allow it.
Joanna: What do you think about dictating as the process for free writing?
Robin: Well, I just came back from a wonderful workshop that I did in the Berkshire's, and the students there were all seniors, like over 70. It was a wonderful experience.
Some of the people, one woman in particular, couldn't type because she had a disability, so she would dictate. She was a poet. I thought it worked out for her really beautifully.
So I think it really depends on where you're most comfortable. If you're just starting out, I would say start with paper and pen. That whole tactile experience is so powerful.
If you can't use paper and pen, you can type. If you can't type, you can dictate. Like whatever works for you is what you should do. You should not allow a barrier to stop you from writing if you feel like you really want to express yourself that way. So I think that if dictating is what works best for you, then go for it.
Joanna: Yes, I do write in my journal for some things, but I never really write finished sentences.
I type my finished sentences, but my journals are full of fragments and just bits and bobs and ideas and quotes.
There's different times to do different things, but the core is in there somewhere.
Robin: I agree with you. I mean, generally speaking, I type on a laptop when I'm writing a book or I have the thread of an essay.
I also have periods of my own time where I'm like, I don't know what I want to write about, I've got nothing. So that's when I'll get out my trusty pen and my paper, and I just start writing pen and paper. That is the best way for me to try to connect to my own voice is through pen and paper.
Once I have the spark, and it's flooding, and I really want to get all these words down, I switch to my laptop. So to your point, I think there's different times in the creative process where different tools serve us best.
I'd say for new writers who are looking for their voice, looking for an idea, sometimes paper and pen is actually the most powerful.
Joanna: Yes, it's interesting, isn't it, because you do say your step four in your process is write faster than you think. I cannot write faster than I think by hand anymore, but I am really fast at typing.
So when I want to get into a flow state, I can't really do it by hand, but I can do it typing.
Robin: When I'm working with new writers and they're doing that step, and the timer goes off, they shake their hand out, “My hand hurts.”
I say to them, you actually did a beautiful job following the assignment, because it's true, your hand literally can hurt from just writing, writing, writing, writing as fast as you can.
For you, you may be at the place where you can't, and you just have to type. I get into that state sometimes too, where I just have to type. I really think the whole purpose of the book is to respect yourself as the expert of your creative process.
My best advice would be, follow your own guidance.
If you feel that you need to type, trust that you know best for you and type. If you feel you need to dictate, then dictate. The whole purpose of Heart. Soul. Pen. is for you, the writer, to trust that you're actually the expert of your creative process.
If you allow yourself to come forward as a writer and listen to your own guidance, you'll be amazed where it will take you. The steps in the book are really just me trying to break it down in ways that are easy to follow for each person to come to the awareness that they really are the expert of their own creative process.
Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. Timed writing, I think is magic. I also had my first sort of breakthrough at one of the many writing workshops I took in the early days before I wrote anything, really.
I would read all the books, and I'd go to all the talks, and then someone like you basically said, “Right, before I start my talk, we're all going to write together for three minutes.” The prompt was something like, “It was at that moment I knew.”
I still remember what I wrote, I won't go into it, but it was like, “At that moment, I knew.” I immediately was like, oh, what, we're meant to write?
What is so incredible is that — if you force yourself to write, like you say, with a timer for three minutes — it can change your life.
Because when you look at what you've written, you realize that you can do it.
That's almost the first step, isn't it, this sort of trusting what will come out if you then do another three minutes, or another hour, or whatever.
Robin: I agree with you. I do feel that timed writing is magic. The other thing that I do is I choose prompts that are really random. My favorite way to get prompts is I have each writer choose their own prompt. It could be something like, “Look around and name the first three things your eye falls on.”
Again, I believe that your eye falls on the first three things that speak to you, personally. Not the three things that I'm giving you, but the three things you notice in your experience, and then you have to put those in your writing.
So that forces our brain to have to make all these weird connections. How am I going to get blue stapler, yellow pen, and lipstick into my writing? Those are the first three things I saw. So our brain makes all these strange connections.
Then when people read their writing, it is very magical. There's something so authentic about it when you stop trying to create it and just allow it to emerge.
Joanna: Those connections, the connections that you make, even given those same prompts, you know, you and me and everyone listening, we could all write something.
Everyone's will be different because of who they are, where they're brought up, their background, their culture, their religion, like all of this stuff.
So that's why I always say to people, look, don't worry about writing another love story. You know, everyone has a love story, and everyone's is different. I mean, you must have seen this—How many variations on a prompt must you get in your workshops.
Robin: It's incredible. In the book, every chapter starts with a paragraph written by a different writer to the prompt, “I remember.” So there's 10 chapters, so there's 10 little mini pieces of writing.
They're all five minutes, and they all start with, “I remember.” As you read them, you can see how wildly different they are. Then at the end, I take you through each one of those chapter openers, and we follow the TIDES.
I talk about the themes, the images, the details, etc. in each piece and how wildly different they are. That's where I believe we all have unlimited creativity. We all have so much to say that's unique.
To your point, often writers will say to me, “Well, I don't think I should write my love story because there's so many love stories already written.” I just feel like, again, that's a limiting belief because your love story in your voice hasn't been written. No one can write that but you.
So it's not like you have to write something that's never been written before because your story in your unique voice is 100% new.
Joanna: Then over time, that's what readers come back for. I actually had a review this week, I wrote a short story, it's called De-Extinction of the Nephilim, and it's like a techno thriller with archaeological and religious elements. So it doesn't really fit in a genre.
Someone said, “Oh, I don't really read short stories, but I read this, and I can see the strands of J.F. Penn's voice in this story.”
It just thrilled me because I have had points of thinking, “Oh, I've written this before.” I've written about Nephilim before. I've written about angels before. I've written about this trope, or this. That's because that's what I love, and actually, that's what the readers come for because they love them, too.
Like there's lot of crypts and religious relics. Those are the things that come out in my themes. So I guess it's also about the confidence that you can still double down on those things, even if you've written about them before. It will still be in a slightly different way next time.
Robin: Absolutely, and I hear that a lot. You know, I am always writing about blame. Someone will tell me, “I'm just writing about divorce over and over again. I don't want to keep writing about divorce.” Well, you're going to write about divorce until you're done writing about divorce.
That might be a theme for you throughout your life, or it may just be a theme for now.
We are going to write about the things that are of interest to us for as long as they're of interest to us.
This idea that there's a deadline like, “Well, I've written about crypts, so now I have to write about something else,” but if that's what turns you on, and that's what's of interest to you, that's going to keep coming up. Instead of acting like it's a bad thing, we could just embrace it.
Joanna: Yes, and I think I got to that point, and just went, you know what, this is what I love, and this is what my readers love, and they will come back for this. So that's interesting.
As we carry on in the book, you had a really interesting bit about putting yourself out there. So this is a quote from the book.
“Discernment is the space between writing and sharing, where you stop and consider the next steps.”
“It is the process by which your thinking mind considers the possible outcomes of sharing your work and makes decisions about privacy, timing, and consequences.” This is so important because—
Everything you've said so far very much underscores the need to share personal things in our writing.
So how do we do this? Because people are very scared to put themselves out there in a world where social media can be hell, basically. We talk about judgment, I mean, there's a lot of it.
Robin: Well, so that's why I feel like really understanding discernment is really important. So there's writing, then there's discernment, then there's sharing.
So when you're in the writing phase and you want to be able to write freely, whether that means if you're writing nonfiction, you want to write about family matters, or things that have actually happened in your life.
Or maybe it's fiction, and you're writing sex scenes, or you're writing whatever it is that you want to write.
You have to allow yourself the free rein to write anything.
I think it's really important that writers understand that just because you write it, doesn't mean you're going to share it. We're going to move into that space between writing and sharing, where we are going to now use our discernment to decide what we're going to do with our work.
If when we write, and while we're writing we're trying to edit out things that we don't want to share, we really screw up the process. So it's really important to understand writing is that process that you and you alone do, and you can be fully free to write whatever it is that you want.
Then we go into discernment. Should I share this? Will my family get mad at me? Is this actually private material? Are there things that I want to edit out of this?
No, I don't want to share it. Maybe I only want to share it with certain people, but not widely. Maybe I want to share the whole thing, and I'm ready to throw a bomb in my life.
These are questions that are very personal to each writer. How much of what I have now written am I going to share? Maybe I'm going to fictionalize it. I mean, there's lots of questions about, is this the time? Is it private? What will these consequences be?
This is a thinking process that we have to go through after we're done free writing and giving ourselves full liberation to write whatever you want. We then have to go into the thinking part and ask ourselves, how do I feel about sharing this piece? What do I want to decide to do?
Then after we make those decisions, we get into the sharing. So I think it's really important to understand that—
Just because you wrote it, doesn't mean you're sharing it.
If you don't distinguish those two phases, if you don't distinguish them, you can end up trying to edit yourself as you write. I find that never works.
Joanna: Yes, definitely. I have struggled with that, as I said, in Writing the Shadow, and I had a memoir on pilgrimage where I mentioned menopause. At the time, I was like, do I really want to put this in a book? But I needed to write about it, and I was like, okay, I'm going to write about it.
In the end, I put a little bit, not too much, but it was something that really came up for me. Obviously, there's a lot of judgment in midlife, as you know.
I did want to ask you specifically about what you have done with that. Is it about the time that's passed? Because you started this interview talking about the difficulties in parenting your son. So you're admitting something there that perhaps has had an impact in your family.
How did you get to that point of sharing something so personal?
Robin: I guess I'd say I never wrote my son's experience because I'm not capable of doing that. I wrote my experience as a parent.
I always offered for my own children, anytime that they appeared in my writing, and really, my first love is personal essay, so I have written a lot about my family. Any child of mine that appears in my writing is always given the opportunity to read the essay and let me know if they don't want any part of it to be shared.
That's my decision as a mother that I would never want to write anything that any child of mine would interpret as betraying their confidence. So I always give my children the opportunity to read anything.
I still write about, to your point, midlife and empty nesting and different things that have happened with my young adult kids. So anytime they appear in my work, they're always given the opportunity to read it. If they have notes about it, I would certainly take their words.
That's most important to me, number one, is that I would never betray their confidence. Having said that, because I'm a writer, my children know that I'm going to write about our lives.
I literally have never had any of them ever ask me to change anything. I mean, that's just me and my family, but that is a part of discernment. Where for me, if I'm writing something personal about my experience in parenting and one of my kids appears, I want them to have the opportunity to read it.
That's a decision I've made, and so I do that before I share. That's part of like, I write anything I want, but then I do take that time to share it with them because their confidence is important to me. So that's one of the things I do.
Not everybody who writes personal essay wants to share every single thing they write about. I think you mentioned, Joanna, that in your book, there were things you took out. Maybe not just about menopause, but just other things.
I think that's important, where we then look at our work and decide like this may be too private for me. Once it's out there, it's out there. So you do have to really ask yourself those questions.
I feel that personally sharing the struggles I went through as a mom was so liberating. It helped me connect so much with others. I believe it was a service for both me and other people, but these are decisions that I think are really individual to each person.
Joanna: Yes, absolutely. You're right. I mean, there were things I'd written about people who were still alive, who I love, and I just decided that I didn't need to put that stuff in for the book to still serve the purpose that I wanted it to serve.
I think that's the other thing. You obviously have helped so many people with some of the words you've written around your parenting, and that's helped other parents. I felt with my book that I had served the purpose of the book with what I wanted to put out, and I didn't need the things that I had to potentially question.
So, yes, as you say, the discernment is a very personal thing. Your words can certainly change other people.
I do have one final question just before we finish. We're almost out of time. I wanted to come back to your live events. You've mentioned community, you work with groups of writers.
What is the benefit of being physically in the same space with writing workshops?
You might feel really vulnerable, but in this world of Zoom—you and I are now on Riverside—but with the online things that we do so much, what are the benefits of in-person writing?
Robin: Having the opportunity to share your work and know that the response to your work will be nurturing, because I create a safe space, so it is always nurturing.
So having the opportunity to share your work live and receive feedback that is strength-based is, I would say, transformational for the writer. You are seen, heard, and understood by other people, and you have the chance to hear what resonates for them about your work.
I'm not sure there's anything more inspiring for the writer. Any time that people come together live and write and share together in a framework that's strength based, I would say people leave exhilarated because it's this opportunity to take off our mask and really be seen.
I just can't say enough how much inspiration I feel like writers come away with. They come away with a feeling of my work matters, and I'm ready to dive into writing.
Joanna: Fantastic.
Where can people find you, and your books, and courses online?
Pivoting Genres And Writing Historical Fiction With Anna Sayburn Lane
Jul 29, 2024
When is it time to leave an unsuccessful series behind and pivot into something new? What is the process of writing to market? Anna Sayburn Lane explores these topics and more.
Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna
Joanna: Anna Sayburn Lane writes 1920s murder mysteries and contemporary thrillers and is an award-winning short story writer. So welcome to the show, Anna.
Anna: Hello, thank you very much for having me.
Joanna: Oh, it's great to have you on the show. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you originally got into writing and self-publishing.
Anna: I was the typical bookworm kid, which led me into an English and History degree. I didn't really think at the time that writing stories for a living was an option. So I kind of went into journalism thinking, oh, that's close. Turns out, it's a completely different thing, but anyway, it kind of worked.
So I worked for local newspapers for five years. Then I moved into the health and medical field. I enjoyed work, I was quite happy doing what I was doing.
I'd always written a bit of fiction on the side, but I only really started taking it seriously about 15 years ago. I just got bitten with the idea for a novel, and it wouldn't let me go.
So I spent about eight years writing my first novel, and then another two years trying to get it published. I went through all of the ups and downs, and near misses, and getting more and more frustrated with the process.
So eventually, I decided I'm going to find out about self-publishing. I went to London Book Fair, I joined ALLi (Alliance of Independent Authors), I did various online courses, and I found out as much about it as I possibly could. Then I eventually went on to publish Unlawful Things, which is the first novel, and that was back in 2018.
Joanna: That's interesting. That's quite a long journey then. Didn't that book win some awards or something? I mean, it's a very well-respected kind of book.
How did that experience go with traditional publishing?
Anna: Well, that was the thing. It kept getting shortlisted for stuff, it kept nearly winning things. Then I'd sort of get agents who were saying, “Oh, yes, we really love it,” and then they'd have a closer look and say, “The trouble is, we're not sure that it's commercial enough. Blah, blah, blah.”
So that was really the reason that I eventually went into self-publishing. I forget the exact ones now, but there were a couple of awards that it got onto the final roster for.
When I published it, it did pretty well. It got really well reviewed, people seemed to really like it. So I thought, oh, great, you know, better write the next one. Unfortunately, the next one to two years to write, and that was when I suppose things started slowing down a bit, really.
Well, let's just stay a few years back because you and I first met as I arrived in Canterbury at the end of my pilgrimage in 2020. So we were literally just days before lockdown, I think, that time.
Why did you start out writing that series, in particular, Was it based on your history degree?
Anna: Well, actually, the Helen Oddfellow series really started when I walked from London to Canterbury back in 2010, which I just sort of did for fun. It gave me an idea for a story, which I like the idea of a story that started in London and led you all the way to Canterbury.
Taking in literary figures like Chaucer and Christopher Marlowe, who's the playwright to was born in Canterbury, but actually died in Deptford, was murdered in Deptford. I liked the idea that it would touch on historical mysteries, like the murder in the cathedral and Archbishop Becket's murder.
Then again, the mystery of what happened to Becket's body after Henry the Eighth had the shrine destroyed. So I had all of these kinds of mad ideas going around in my head.
Then I came up with the idea of a literary detective looking into mysteries from the past. So my heroine, Helen Oddfellow, was a PhD literary researcher, but she was also a London tour guide.
That was because I actually have a friend who works as a London tour guide. It's just fantastic going anywhere with her in London because she's always pointing out things that you'd never notice normally. She just knows everything about London history.
So I thought that would make a really good sleuth, someone who notices things like that and who has such a good background in history.
So this series then, the first book was very much about Marlowe. I then went on to write about William Blake and then about Charles Dickens. So all writers who had really strong London and Kent links, because I live in London and Kent and that's kind of the area that I know best.
So I really enjoyed the writing and the research, and I did absolutely stacks of research for each book. They were incredibly research heavy. I mean, for example, with the Charles Dickens book, it sort of started with, hmm, I should probably read all of Dickens.
Joanna: Wow, okay. That is interesting.
Anna: So perhaps not surprisingly, they took quite a long time to write. The first book did okay, the second did okay too, the third and the fourth didn't really take off.
So I was very proud of the books. The people who read them did like them. I thought they were good books, but they kind of weren't working commercially.
Joanna: Yes, and this is really interesting because you mentioned the agent who said it wasn't commercial enough. You've got a character there who's a PhD literary researcher and tour guide.
How much does that series cross over into literary fiction versus mystery genre fiction?
Anna: I think part of the problem was I didn't really know where it should sit at all. I remember after writing the first one, showing it to someone, and she said, “Oh, so it's a crime?”
I said, “Oh, is it?” I hadn't even thought to that point what sort of book I was writing. I had to explain it. It takes quite a long time to explain to someone that, well, it's a contemporary thriller, but it's got lots of historical stuff, and quite a lot of heavy literary history.
It just became really hard to market because it was quite a complicated thing.
I think when I described them as sort of literary thrillers, people thought they're just going to be really heavy. Maybe they were quite heavy, but certainly, I think that for some people that was actually quite off putting that they sounded like they were going to be hard work.
I think probably they did ask quite a lot of the reader. I do remember reading one of the reviews where someone was saying, “Look, I'm sure this is a really good book, but there's so much history in it.” I was like, yes, you're right. There is a lot of history in it.
Joanna: It's so funny, though, because I was thinking about this because, of course, you and I both love our research. It can be spice or seasoning instead of info dumps, and I think both of us are pretty good at that, to be honest.
It's so interesting because I was thinking, look, my books are for people who love to also read the Author's Note and love to say, “Oh, my goodness, that's actually real. Oh, wow, I didn't know about this.”
I get emails from people who say, “Oh, I had to go and google that stuff you were writing about,” or, “I had to go and visit this other website that you put an author's note,” and stuff. So I do feel like there is an audience for those kinds of books.
I mean, Desecration, my first also kind of literary detective book, it's similar. So staying with that series, so you mentioned that you didn't know what genre it was, which is a classic first novel issue that many writers have. In fact, first book issue in general.
What else did you learn from self-publishing and writing those initial books?
Anna: I think one of the problems was how long it was taking me to write each book. So I realized that people will actually forget if you don't publish a book for two years, especially if that's the gap between your first and second book.
People will just forget about you, even if they really liked the first book. By the time you're publishing the second one, they've way moved on. I mean, I think I did learn how to craft a really good thriller.
I think my fourth book in the series is by far my favorite. I think it was a really gripping story. It had the backstory, it had the Dickens backstory in it, but I don't think it ever became sort of info dump. I don't think it ever over-egged the history. I think it was actually a really good book.
Unfortunately, by that stage, the readers who'd read the first book had sort of forgotten about it, apart from a few diehards. It just wasn't working. So it was sad.
I was really sad not to be able to make a success of it because I felt they are good books. I would very much like to have been able to carry on with them, but the time came to make that change.
Joanna: So let's talk about that. Was it a purely financial reason to pivot away from that series? Why did you decide to pivot? How did it feel? I mean, you said it was sad there, but talk us through that process.
Anna: I just decided I wanted to make a living as a fiction writer, and those books were losing money. So I could have kept writing as a hobby, but that really wasn't what I wanted to do.
So if I wanted to fulfill this dream of making a living as a fiction writer, then I had to find something that would actually sell. It was kind of heartbreaking because I loved writing my characters. I love those books.
I was actually midway through writing book five when I made the decision. That came from just looking really clearly at the sales for book four, and thinking, why are you doing this to yourself? Why are you carrying on putting all of this this effort and this huge amount of work into something that is not really giving you a return?
Once I'd made the decision, I actually felt a huge sense of relief. I think that they had become a bit of a burden in a way. I was kind of tired of feeling that I was failing.
I'd set myself up to be an author, and I felt that I was failing as an author because I wasn't able to sell those books, even though I was pleased with the books themselves.
Joanna: Yes, so let's just say to everyone listening, it is actually completely normal to not be a full-time fiction author and making enough money from books. That's what you decided you wanted to do, so that's why you made that decision, I guess. You said there, looking really clearly at the sales and the books.
How did you get enough distance from the books to make that decision, do you think?
Or are you an analytical person? Like, you could just download the sales spreadsheets and be like, no, this is not working.
Anna: I am fairly analytical, I think. I always have spreadsheets that show how much money I'm spending and how much I'm getting in. I've been running my own business for the past 10 years as a freelance journalist, so that was just part of my process.
It was kind of the end of the year, and I was looking at my end of year figures and realizing to what extent my journalism business was subsidizing the books. I knew that I wanted to do less journalism and more writing, and I thought, well, if that's what I want to do, then something's going to have to change.
So it was quite a struggle emotionally at first, but it was fairly straightforward once I looked at the figures and thought about what it was I actually wanted to do.
Joanna: You said they were costing you money, so were you paying for marketing things? I mean, obviously, editing and cover design are an outlay.
Were you paying for ongoing marketing?
Anna: I mean, I was, but I wasn't even making back the cost of production. So editing and cover design wasn't being covered by the income from the last couple of books. So at that point, it just wasn't working for me anymore.
Joanna: I really appreciate your honesty, and I think people listening are as well. It's so interesting, I've heard Craig Martelle from 20Booksto50k, he's talked about this. You write, let's say a five-book series like you have, or an eight-book series or however many you want, or even just a trilogy, and you see how it's going.
If it's not working, then you do another series because not every one is going to find an audience. So it might be at this point. So for example—
Have you considered bundling those books or doing some other things later on?
Or are you just going to let it go?
Anna: I've put them in a four-book box set. Funnily enough, since I started the new series, there's a small but steady sale each month for those books. So I think some people are reading the new series, and then when they get to the end of it they're thinking, oh, maybe I'll try the others.
Joanna: Awesome. That's great.
Anna: So that's nice.
Joanna: That is nice. Well, you never know. I do want to encourage people around this too, because things can pop back up again at different points. Or you could just do a promotion. So you've got Chaucer, you've got Marlowe, you've got Dickens, you've got William Blake. I mean, these are people where festivals come up, don't they, here in the UK.
But that's the old series, and the reason I get emotional about this is because I have probably gone on too long with my ARKANE series. It makes some money, but you know, I'm on book 13. I think if I had been honest like you have, around book five I might have pivoted earlier, but I do have other series. Let's talk about your pivot. What was your process of—
After you decided you were going to do something different, what did you do next?
Anna: I think one of the keys was once I decided, just move on. Don't sort of faff around thinking, oh what might existing readers think or try to explain it to anyone else, just get on with.
So I decided fairly quickly that I wanted to stay in the crime mystery thriller space. Then I started researching the genre in crime properly, in the sub genres.
I thought, well, what is non-negotiable? I realized, well, I definitely want to keep the historical aspects. I'd often thought about writing a historical novel. I knew that I didn't want to write police procedural.
So I looked at the historical mystery area, and slightly to my surprise, I found this thriving sub-genre of 1920s murder mysteries. I love reading classic Golden Age mysteries by Dorothy L. Sayers and Agatha Christie, so that kind of helped. I just looked and thought, well, maybe I could do that.
I then started reading lots of books in that genre, and also started reading general histories about the 1920s. Especially social histories involving women because there was so much going on in the 20s for women, everything had changed since the First World War.
I just started to really fall in love with that kind of period and started to think, yes, actually, I can do this. I really want to get into this area. I actually started off by writing my reader magnet, which is Murder at the Ritz, which came from actually going and having tea at the Ritz with a friend.
We were sitting over afternoon tea and throwing ideas about, and I went home and wrote it and thought, well, it looks like I can actually write a murder mystery. So there was a bit of research to kind of prompt ideas.
There was a particular book that really helped me get started called Square Haunting by Francesca Wade, which is all about some amazing women who lived in Mecklenburg Square in Bloomsbury between the wars, including Virginia Woolf and Dorothy Alphaeus.
That was quite close to where I used to live and work myself. I really liked the Bloomsbury area of London. So that gave me quite a lot of inspiration for the first full novel in the series, which was Blackmail In Bloomsbury.
Joanna: So you found this subcategory, but did you assess the financial potential or did you check the rankings?
Did you use Publisher Rocket because you can find out money using that tool? Like, how did you look at that side?
Anna: Yes, I did. I use Publisher Rocket. I mean, what I did find was that I could probably find other genres or sub genres that would be more lucrative, that would probably have higher sales, but I was looking for something that I was excited about writing about.
I looked at, well, what are the best sellers in those genres? What are their sales? Okay, well, I'd be happy with that. If I could get into those sort of numbers, that will be fine.
So although it wasn't that I'm going to make an absolute fortune necessarily, it was they're clearly selling enough, and it's something that I want to write. I think you really have to have that crossover. I knew that there were other genres that were selling more, but they weren't the ones that really spoke to me.
Joanna: How did you write to that market?
Did you get lists of tropes? Or was it more organic?
Anna: I read a lot of books in that genre and kind of noted the tropes. So things like people are forever wanting to have afternoon tea and cake and things like that. So that's fine, I can build that in.
The fashion is really important. Well, that's good, because I like the fashion of the era very much myself. So I was kind of aware of the tropes.
What I realized I didn't want was something that's very common, is it's an aristocratic sleuth. It's always Lady so-and-so who's investigating the murders. I decided, no, I don't want that because I wanted something that felt a bit more personal to me. I don't really have any sort of insight into the aristocratic mindset.
What I do have, my mother, grandmother, are all South London women who grew up in a particular sort of social class, kind of lower middle class. My mother went to the grammar school and did elocution lessons, and learned how to do shorthand and typing, and was expected to fit into a kind of secretarial role.
I thought, actually, I like that idea that this lady, my main sleuth Marjorie, who was named for my grandmother, is a secretary to a lady who is an American private detective. So she's got the experience, she's in her 50s, same age as I am. So she's sort of that side of me. She's kind of experienced at life.
Then Marjorie is quite a naive young woman, but she's learning fast. She's coming from that background that I feel that I understand quite well.
Joanna: Did you plan a trilogy, or five books?
How did you think about this next experiment in terms of a series?
Anna: I decided I wanted it to be a six-book series, but I also thought I will do three and see how it's going. So I've got three out now, and they're going pretty well.
I mean, they've sold so much better than the previous series, to the extent that I can see how they could become a living if I keep going in the series and maybe have some spin-offs and other series.
They've certainly given me hope that it's possible to achieve that goal of being a full-time author.
So, yes, right from the beginning I was thinking they're going to have an overriding theme. There's a couple of themes for the two main characters that will go throughout the six-book series. I may well continue after six books, but I'll kind of see how that's going, and if I've got enough new ideas at the end of the six books.
So it was very much a planned series, whereas the Helen Oddfellow books were entirely unplanned. I wrote the first one without any idea what was going to come next. So it's been a much more commercially minded project, I guess.
Joanna: On that, have you just gone with ebook and paperback?
How are you publishing? Are you in KU?
Anna: Yes, I'm publishing in KU. I'm doing paperback and ebook. I really want to do audiobooks, and that's something that I'm going to be focusing on for the rest of this year is trying to get that underway.
So that's a bit of investment, but I like the idea of doing that because I think there's quite an untapped market for audiobooks. It's probably a market that I haven't reached because they don't necessarily read paperback or ebook. So I'm quite excited about that.
Ideally, I would like to sell direct, but I think there's not much point in doing that until I've got a few more books in this series under my belt. So that's a project for next year, to look at maybe or maybe not taking them out of KU. Either way, being able to sell paperbacks direct and audio direct through my own website. So that's definitely one for 2025.
Joanna: What I noticed as well, I mean, if you're going to write to market, you have to cover to market. Your covers are fantastic for this series. They look exactly on brand, as far as I can tell. I don't know much about that genre.
Tell us about how you did the research for the branding and the covers.
And how you've shifted it, because they obviously look quite different to the rest of your books.
Anna: Yes, completely. Well, I wanted something that would give a flavor of the art deco style of the 20s. So I was looking at some classic Dorothy L Sayers books, and I've got one that I particularly liked. I used that to do a little mock up for my reader magnet.
Then I started looking at cover designs in the genre, and I contacted a designer called Donna Rogers who had done quite a few of the books that I really liked. So I sent her a brief, including my mock up as one of various suggestions. She drew elements from that, the sort of geometric shapes and so on, and used that as a template.
So we've got a very strong branding on the series with this strong sort of art deco style template. Then we're picking different colors for each of them in the series. They're getting a lot of love. It's really nice. Book reviewers and book bloggers nearly always comment on the covers, which is really nice.
Joanna: Oh, well, then that brings us to the marketing on it. So you said before that they're selling a lot more.
How are you marketing these books differently?
Anna: I suppose my author branding has changed in the time. I'm foregrounding of the 20s style and my research into the 1920s. So I'm doing quite a lot of work with the newsletter. So that's become a really important thing.
I thought a lot about what do people who read my type of book want from a newsletter. I realized that they probably want a bit of fun, a bit of glamour.
So I put in pictures of exotic places that I've managed to travel to, and I talk about other books that they might like, and some of the media that they might enjoy. So the new series of Bridgerton, or whatever. Things that kind of have that historical, but escapist, quite glamorous sort of style.
I suppose I didn't make a big deal of the shift with my newsletter or my social channels because I kept the same pen name, but I did completely rebrand them. Then I just started posting about my new series.
I switched over to the new reader magnet so that new readers were going to be seeing consistent 1920s-style branding from the start. I've done a lot of newsletter swaps with other authors in the genre, which has been really nice.
I got in touch with them fairly soon in that journey. I was making contact with people, getting on their newsletter list. Then once my series had started, offering newsletter swaps, asking if they're willing to do that, and everyone seems really up for it. So that's worked really well.
I've done a few promotions as well. So Written Word Media type promotions and 99p for a week, that kind of thing. That has been quite good for promoting the first book in the series, and then hopefully hooking people into the series.
In terms of advertising, I'm doing a lot of experimenting with Facebook ads at the moment. I don't know, I'm struggling. I haven't cracked that yet is all I'm going to say.
Joanna: It keeps changing.
Anna: It does. There's a lot going on with Facebook at the moment. It's quite interesting to see certain vintage-style photos do well for a bit, and then they stop doing well. Then I've tried using AI imagery, and some people are fine with it, and then some people will just write, “This looks AI,” underneath. So I think, well, okay, it is.
Joanna: Yes, that's common now, even if it's not AI.
Anna: Exactly.
Joanna: So basically, you are doing everything, but you were doing everything before, right. So the big difference is—
You found a more vibrant niche where you have written something that those readers already want.
It's like putting stuff before people, but if they actually want it, it becomes much easier to market.
Anna: Yes, completely. I know who I'm marketing for, too. I think that was probably the single big thing that made the difference was I know who to target. I didn't know any of that stuff before. I kept looking, trying to find my readers, and there was no one who really fit it.
So I think that was part of the problem, was it wasn't an easily marketable series. Whereas this, you know, if you say to somebody, “Oh, it's a murder mystery set at the 1923 Chelsea Flower Show,” they know exactly what sort of thing they're going to get. If that's the sort of thing they're into, then they'll give it a go.
Joanna: Fantastic. So I mean, obviously, this is still 1920s. How have you done the research for this in a different way than the last series? Because you spent a lot more time researching those.
How are you balancing research with actually getting the books done?
Anna: Well, each book has kind of a new aspect of the 20s to explore. So for example, The Soho Jazz Murders, the second book, was all about nightclubs, jazz music, and a bit about the cocaine panic of the early 1920s.
So I often do a lot with the British Newspaper Archive. So I'll literally just dive in, put in some keywords and dates, and see what comes up. It can be really interesting.
Then I'll do some library-based research, so looking for things like memoirs. For example, Kate Meyrick was a nightclub hostess who wrote this fantastic memoir called Secrets of the 43 Club, which is really fascinating.
I will also go to places as much as I can. So I did a crime tour of the West End, I went to the Bow Street Police Museum, just spending time in those particular areas.
One thing that I realized is really different, because I write about London, and I write about it very much in a real way. So you sort of should be able to walk where I've walked. Of course, so much changed because of bombing and development after the Second World War.
So one of the resources that I use is the old online ordnance survey maps of London from 1918. So I can discover that, actually, the places that I thought they could all stroll down didn't exist in 1918. That road used to be called something else. So that's quite fun.
Things like local history blogs are really good as well. So I was setting one scene in Brixton, and I found these fantastic old photographs on a blog called Brixton Buzz all along the high street. So I could see which shops were where, and what people were wearing, and where the market was, and all that sort of stuff.
So that's fantastic because what I'm looking for then is color to bring into the books so that you can feel that you're there. So it's rather than looking for particular kind of secrets from the past, which I was looking for when I was doing the Helen Oddfellow series.
A lot of it is, how will I make people feel that they're in the 1920s? How can I add the color so that they feel that they're actually in the place?
My fourth book, The Riviera Mystery, which I'm working on at the moment, I was lucky enough to go to Nice a couple of times last year. So I made the most of my research time there.
Also, YouTube actually is really helpful with vintage film. The film industry was very much in its infancy, but there are some fantastic short films. There's a film called À propos de Nice from 1924 which shows everyone in all their fashions, kind of parading up and down the Promenade Andre. So there's lots to really enjoy.
Joanna: This is hard, though, isn't it, because a lot of historical fiction readers can be very particular about the exactness and veracity of the research. Have you found that in this niche, which I imagine is potentially more about the murder mystery than the exact history?
Are you getting different responses from readers?
Anna: Actually, yes. People don't tend to pick up on—well, maybe I haven't made an error yet—but people haven't picked up on errors, so it seems unlikely.
One thing I was worried about getting wrong as the cars because I quite like having vintage cars. Fortunately, my husband's a fan of vintage cars, too. So just last week, he read the first draft of my next book and pointed out that she can't reverse her 3 Wheeler Morgan back up the street because they didn't have reverse gears.
Joanna: There's no reverse! That's a good one.
Anna: So he saved me from that torture. I think what most people are looking for is a really cracking story. They also want it to sound right. So something that my beta readers will sometimes pick up on is phrases or words that they think don't sound right.
Quite often when I've checked them out, actually, they are right. As in there were people called Brenda, for example, in 1920, but to them, that didn't sound right. So I thought, well, okay, it's about plausibility rather than accuracy.
So if someone called Brenda strikes my readers as being out of period, even though I know perfectly well from the online records that it's true, that's okay. I'll change it to something that they will find more plausible. So there's a bit of push and pull between that.
I've got a good beta reader team who will say, “Actually, I'm not sure whether this is true or not, but it doesn't sound right.” So I think sounding right is really key.
Joanna: That's a really good tip, actually. I mean, I was just thinking that as we record this, it's July 2024, and the American election cycle is unbelievable. If you wrote it into a thriller, people would say, no, that's too much. That's just a bit much. It's not believable.
That's kind of the same thing. It's like, what is true is sometimes not believable. Just coming back on beta readers.
How did you find your beta readers?
Because that's a question that people send me quite a lot.
Anna: Through the newsletter list. I just ask people, did you want to be on the team?
Something that was quite unexpected when I started publishing this series was how many of my readers are from the US as opposed to the UK. It's something like 70%/30%, US to UK.
So because historically I've been publishing with more success in England, or in Britain, for the first series, more of my newsletter list was from the UK. So more of my beta readers were.
I put out a call in last one saying, can I have some American beta readers, please? Because I won't know what it is that will strike you as odd or that needs to be better explained or whatever. So trying to make sure that I'm accommodating readers from my biggest market, as well home readers.
Joanna: Yes, that is interesting.
Are you writing in British English?
Anna: I am. I think if I tried to write in US English, particularly because it's set in the UK, the narrator is an English woman and it's first person, I think it might come across as slightly weird.
Joanna: Weird, yes. First person, no, fair enough. Okay, I didn't realize. Your first books were not in first person, right?
Anna: No, it's the first time I've written first person. It's really interesting.
Joanna: How is that? I've written some short stories in first person, but I've never written a full novel. That is actually quite different because you can't—I guess you can write some chapters from other people's perspectives, but they'd be in third person.
How have you managed writing from that first person perspective?
Anna: It all has to be from Marjorie's perspective. It's really interesting in terms of how it affects the structure because everything has to be either something that's through her eyes or something that she's told later, and particularly with a mystery.
I suppose one of my inspirations for having her as a first person narrator was I was thinking about Holmes and Watson, and how Watson is kind of usually several steps behind Holmes. So he's telling you things, but he's not necessarily understanding them.
I quite like that Marjorie will tell you what's happened, and she'll tell you something that her boss the detective has said or is doing, but she won't necessarily get the input of that for another chapter or two. Then, also, things can then be explained to her, so she can explain them to us.
So it's been really interesting, and I've enjoyed doing it. It's not something that I thought I would do, but somehow this particular character seemed to want to be a first person character. I think it does work. It works because she's got quite a strong persona, so her voice comes through.
Joanna: Is that common in that particular genre? Because again, when you're writing to market, it is very much about writing to—you know, if you're writing the romantasy at the moment, a lot of it is first person.
Is that common in that genre?
Anna: Yes, it is. I'm not sure what the proportions are, but a fair number of the series that are successful are written first person.
Joanna: Yes, definitely something for people to watch out for. In my sort of main thriller niche, like most of the books I read are in third person. So that's kind of what I naturally write. So that's a big shift.
We're almost out of time, but I do want to just circle right back. So you have an English and History degree, your first character was like a PhD Literary. We've talked very much about that literary side. You're a journalist.
We're in the UK, right, and you and I both know how snobby it can be in this country. So I wondered like how have you dealt with any, or—
Are there any mindset changes or challenges around moving away from a more literary persuasion into this more commercial side?
Like, have you struggled with that? Or have you had any responses from anyone? How has that been?
Anna: I haven't had any problems with it personally at all. I wanted to write books that sell. I wanted to write books that people would enjoy. I'm not snobbish about things like, you know, Agatha Christie, I think she's fantastic. I've a few problematic issues with it in terms of the time period now, but I love a good murder mystery.
I think that's the key to it, really. I'm writing for people to enjoy themselves. I don't think that they have to work to enjoy themselves. There are books that that will do that and that's fine, but that's not really what I want to do.
I just want that someone can read my book maybe at a time when life is tough. Someone got in touch and said, “Oh, I read your first Helen Oddfellow book whilst I was in hospital having open heart surgery.”
I mean, blimey. If that can help someone through an experience like that, then that's fantastic. That's as much as I would want.
The only thing I can think of that's at all kind of similar was one of my ads on Facebook recently put something like, “Experience a classic murder mystery,” and someone had responded underneath, “No, thank you. I prefer the proper classics.”
Joanna: There we go. It's really good that you've made this decision, you stepped into it, it's going well. So I guess the last question is—
Can you see a path now to making a living as a fiction writer?
Anna: Yes, but it's a multi-year pathway. It's not something that's going to happen quickly. I think when I first started, like so many authors, I thought I'm going to be that one where I will release this book, and everyone will recognize its genius, and it will be The Davinci Code, and suddenly I'll be a millionaire or something.
I know now that's not really how it happens. So I'm happy to sort of project forward, okay, well, I'm going to have five books out by the end of this year, and then I want X number by the end of next year. By that time, I should be getting revenues around this or that.
So looking a couple of years into the future, I'm very much hoping that I will be where I want to be in terms of my goal of being full time.
Joanna: Brilliant.
Where can people find you and your books online?
Anna: So my website is AnnaSayburnLane.com, and if you sign up at the website, you can get a free copy of Murder at the Ritz.
I'm also looking at doing a research blog, so a blog that's about historical research for writers, which I think would be interesting for both writers and hopefully for readers. So AnnaSayburnLane.com/research gives people the chance to sign up to the Substack, which I will start just as soon as I've got time to start it.
Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Anna, that was great.
Why is writing emotion so important in our books, whatever the genre? How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters? Roz Morris gives her tips in this episode.
In the intro, how to get your indie book into schools [Self-Publishing Advice]; Did my bestselling book turn out to be a financial failure? [Tiago Forte]; How to Build a World Class Substack; Why did The Atlantic sign a licensing deal with OpenAI? [The Verge]; Like It or Not, Publishers Are Licensing Books for AI Training—And Using AI Themselves [Jane Friedman]; and my personal update post-Covid.
Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io
Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Why is writing emotion is so important?
How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters?
How to write layers of emotion
Using description and dialogue to evoke feelings in the reader
“Show, don't tell” when writing emotion
Learning to lean into our intuition and trust more
Using your own emotions and experiences in writing
Joanna: Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach. So welcome back to the show, Roz.
Roz: Hi, Jo. It's so great to be here again.
Joanna: Yes, and you have been on the show many times before over the last 14 years.
Roz: I feel like we're old timers, gosh.
Joanna: Oh, we are so old timers, but that's because you're so good at this, I wanted you back. The last time was in January 2023, when we talked about how to finally finish your book, which was a super popular episode. Though, given your many creative projects, what have you been working on in the last 18 months? Give us an idea of where you are in the creative cycle.
Roz: Well, just after that, I did an audiobook of my third novel. Then I was playing with ideas for another novel, and they sort of settled a bit, but I couldn't figure out really what I wanted to do. Then another novel idea came along, and that's starting to incubate.
Meanwhile, just as a kind of amuse-bouche, I've been writing a follow-up to my travel memoir, which is Not Quite Lost: Travels Without A Sense of Direction. So I've rather got the taste for writing little memoirs of un-adventures. I just really like them as a way of storytelling.
Joanna: Oh, that's funny. Un-adventures, I do love that.
The audiobook, did you narrate that?
Roz: No, I didn't. I managed to get back my narrator who did my first two novels because she just had such a good take and understanding of the material. She really wanted to do a third one if there was a possibility, so that worked really well.
Joanna: What about the travel memoir? Have you done that as an audiobook yourself?
Roz: I haven't, but if there is an audiobook that, I want to do it.
Joanna: Yes, you must. You've got such a lovely voice. I do think memoir is one of those things, and your Nail Your Novel books as well. I think that these are some things, the nonfiction side, that we can do as authors more easily, I think.
Roz: I think so. Also, people get used to hearing the real us on podcasts like this, on videos that we appear on, when we speak in real life, and that sort of thing. So our genuine voice is really important there.
Joanna: Absolutely. Well, people should look forward to that at some point. Anyway, into our topic for today, we're going to focus on writing emotion into our books, both for fiction and also for other genres like memoir and narrative nonfiction. So just to set the scene—
Why is writing emotion so important?
Roz: Well, readers love to feel. They absolutely wants to care about what happens. They love to be involved in what happens. Reading is a really intimate thing to do if you think about it. It's just you and the author's words, and yet it sort of goes into you and creates pictures and emotions.
So being in control of the emotion you are writing is a really important writing skill.
The emotion you write is closely linked to the genre. You have to know as a writer what emotion the reader of your genre is seeking.
Are they seeking thrills, or shivers, or a bit of romance? Do they want to be scared? What kind of scariness? Do they want a cozy level of scary? Or do they want something really dark that is something that speaks to them deeply? All that comes from writing emotion. Understanding what emotion the reader is looking for is the key to understanding your genre.
Joanna: It is fascinating. I was thinking about this because in my book Desecration, I wrote an emotion that I have never experienced, and some people did experience that themselves.
I was crying when I was writing it, and people did write to me that it was emotional for them. So I guess for me, I felt that was something I wanted to write about, but that I haven't necessarily experienced, even though I kind of did as I was writing it.
Can we write about things we haven't experienced ourselves?
Roz: We absolutely can. I did that with my novel Ever Rest. It has a lot about the grief of losing a companion, a close friend, a lover. I'm very lucky—I'm going to touch some wood right now—I'm very lucky it hasn't happened to me, but I managed to find genuine place to understand the emotion.
Then, shortly after I published it, a reader contacted me and said her husband had just died and she was reading my book. I thought, oh, heavens, this is a real test.
She said, “You've got it. This is what I needed.” So we can seek understanding and empathy of situations we haven't personally been in if we are perceptive, and truthful, and looking for the reality, and be sensitive.
So we can write things we haven't personally experienced, but we can write them from a place of wanting to understand them. Here, actually, beta readers can be very important because you can bounce something off a beta reader and say, “Can you just look at this and check I've got the truth?”
Joanna: And of course, for my genre fiction, I was just thinking how ridiculous that question was as I was saying it. Like in my Catacomb, which is a horror book—I can't say much without being a spoiler—but there are lots of things in genre fiction, in fantasy, also in romance, there's lots of things that people haven't experienced that they are writing about.
I guess it's more cathartic for the reader because the reader doesn't actually necessarily want to experience that either.
Roz: Yes, but they do want to feel this authenticity there. If you think about the word author, it has the word authority in it. They want to feel you are guiding them securely and with complete confidence through an experience.
Joanna: So let's come back to that caring about what happens that you mentioned, and creating that emotional connection between a reader and our characters.
I know in a previous life you wrote some thrillers, and I obviously read thrillers. Sometimes I get really annoyed because I'm like, I really don't care what happens to this character, it's just action on action.
How do we create that emotional connection between a reader and our characters?
Roz: Well, that's such a good point to raise because no matter what you're writing, you want to make the reader care. Not necessarily care whether the person that they're reading about lives or dies, but just care what happens next.
What you have to do is show why something matters. A mistake that I see in a lot of manuscripts that I'm given, is that we don't understand why something matters. It's as if I can feel the writer thinking, “Well, the reader will just assume it matters.”
Well, no, they won't. They actually have to be educated at the start of the book about why a particular situation matters. Then much later on, they will understand why it matters, and you won't have to do nearly so much explaining.
Then you can just get on with showing them things. They'll know the characters as well as they would know a friend. They'll think, oh, my goodness, that will really matter.
Joanna: I guess we need some more examples there in terms of some concrete ways. I think the word educating, although I know what you mean, to some people it might be sort of like, “Oh, do I need a big info dump about the backstory of this person and why this particular thing is so important?” So maybe just—
Give us an example of how educating a reader might work without an info dump.
Roz: Yes, that's a very good point. You don't have to do an info dump, you can actually just put in a few details that give context.
So for example, you might have a person looking out of the window, and they see a strange car drive up and stop near their house. They might think, “Oh, a strange car has driven up beside the house.”
Some writers might just leave it there, but a writer who is taking a bit more care about educating the reader—we'll use that phrase—might linger a bit longer on what the person's concerns are.
So this person looking out of the window and being worried might say, “A black car, I haven't seen that car before. I was always told that when so-and-so's people came, you wouldn't recognize them.” Now that sets up worry, and you can see they're worried. You can see they've got something in their past that they're trying to run away from.
That will make the reader curious as well. They might think, oh, I'm maybe ready for a bit more about this. Now, you might not have to put that information in immediately. You might leave it until a couple of pages later, or you might say a little bit more there and then.
What you've done is you've shown a specific worry, a specific concern, about why that car has attracted this character's attention.
Joanna: Yes, absolutely. The specifics of the situation are really important. Now, some people will worry about this likable character thing, as in—
Does a character have to be likable for us to care what happens to them in the story?
Roz: Not necessarily. They have to be curious about what will happen. They have to care what happens next. They don't necessarily have to like the character, but they often have to see something that will make them a bit intrigued.
For instance, there's a play I was just reading about called Skeleton Crew, which is by Dominique Morisseau. It's about workers in a car factory in Detroit in the 1980s. To begin with, they're all just working, they're getting along, they're being their tough everyday selves.
Really interestingly, in the descriptions of the characters, the author has put a little line about what, very deep down, they've got going on inside. So one of them always hoped she was made for better things. One of them always thought, oh, there's something really bad inside me and I know it will come out in the end.
One of them always had this faith that the world would be a really lovely place and would be really good to her in the end. Those little pieces of information are under everything they do.
If you can then show that in their everyday lives they have some of that coming out and maybe influencing what they do, that might give them a little hint of vulnerability, which is very appealing to readers.
If readers see that someone has got something they care about, or something that might hurt them, something they're protecting themselves against, while they may not necessarily be likable, the reader might understand that there is a piece of vulnerability in them.
That can make them very likable, even if they seem to be just ordinary, or in fact, maybe a bit badly behaved.
Joanna: Yes, the example I love to give is Succession, which is just one of my favorite series. Have you seen Succession?
Roz: Oh, I gobbled it up. When I was about to watch the last season, I watched all the others again. They are a brilliant example of characters who have all got this layer of vulnerability inside them.
Life could go badly wrong for them, and if you can give a hint of someone who is on the edge of life going badly wrong, that will count a long way towards making the reader just care about what happens to them, even if they wouldn't like to have them as friends.
Joanna: Yes, and there's not very many likeable characters in Succession, but boy, do you care what is what is going on there. I do think there's so much emotion in that series. If people haven't seen it, it really is a masterclass in subtext, as well, of like a family drama. Fascinating.
So let's just dig down on the layers of emotion. You've talked before about the emotions we want readers to feel, but it's not just love, it's not just fear.
How do we dig down on those layers to make it more nuanced?
Roz: I think we have to approach every character as an individual. What we might do is consider, as we were talking, about the layers that they have underneath them.
We might have things we know about the characters that the characters don't know about themselves, but they create a consistent pattern of interesting behavior.
We want to show interesting behavior and things that matter to them. So love might be a thing that matters to them, or feeling secure, or getting revenge. There are lots of big emotions that might come out of quite small, but very deeply seeded beginnings.
So if you look at the various deep seeds that you have in the characters and see what each person might do because of that, that can give you a lot of nuance.
Joanna: What about bringing in the various aspects of an emotion in a book?
So for example, if it is love of a partner, let's say—you and I are both married—love of a husband is one aspect of love. But should people be incorporating elements of love of children, or of parents, or pets, or money, or a love of other bad things as well, to kind of bring some nuance to it?
Roz: What you often have in a narrative that's got love as a theme, for instance, is a number of ways that love could be expressed in other ways in the story. So you might have good love and bad love, if it's romantic love, for instance. You might have loyalty that isn't romantic. You might explore an emotion in a lot of different ways.
If you give the reader lots of ways of experiencing that emotion, then that will add up to a thematic picture that makes them feel, oh, this book is about love or this book is about revenge.
Joanna: I'm coming back to your mis — un-adventures you called them. Un-adventures, not misadventures. The travel memoir, for example, and of course, I've written a travel memoir too, Pilgrimage. I certainly didn't go into that with an emotion in mind. Did you go into yours with an emotion in mind?
If people are writing memoir or narrative nonfiction, how should they think about emotion there?
Roz: It was interesting. With that memoir, I had a series of stories and they were just personal diary entries. When I thought I might make these into a book, I had to see how I would make them interesting in any way to anybody who wasn't me.
So what I did was I found that there were ways in which they were telling me something bigger about life. There were things that I wanted to bring out of them to show other people.
So for instance, the funny ways people behave if you go to a holiday town out of season. You just feel like you're strangers, and you're aliens, and you've wandered in there, and people treat you in a really weird way. It was a very small thing, but I found that interesting, the emotional effects of oh, this is how people treat you. That was just one of them.
Another one was there's this country road that we really liked traveling. I was thinking, well, why does this really appeal to me? Does it appeal to anyone else? So I started digging and thinking, well, this appeals to me because there's a real sense of history under the car wheels. So then I went on from there.
I looked for things that would take me to wider human experiences.
Not just my own particular experiences, but I started with the particular. Then I looked for things that were more widely recognizable.
Again, that's what we can do in stories. The particular is very important. You can't really get a reader to engage with generalizations. They need to see something specific and particular. So a particular character having a particular problem, a particular worry. Worries are really good for getting people curious.
Then from that they start to think, but wait, I know how that feels. I would hate to be in that situation, or I'd love to be in that situation. That's another possibility.
So you start with something particular, and then you kind of work out how to make it something that a lot of people can understand and connect with. Connecting is another really important concept.
Joanna: As you were talking there, I was thinking about being an outsider in a town. I did a lot of solo traveling in my younger days, and I am kind of obsessed with this idea of the outsider, actually. Then I was thinking, well, what's the name of the emotion? Is there one word? Or is it that we are actually looking for feelings, as you say?
Roz: I think it's feelings. I think we don't have to pin down a name. Maybe there is one, like loneliness-freude or something.
It's more that we want to evoke the feeling. We don't have to find one word for it, what we have to do is make the reader feel it themselves and understand what we're feeling, what we're noticing, that makes us feel like the outsider.
Here's where description is really useful because you can use description to plug the reader into the specific emotions that are creating this whole experience. So for instance, you might be walking along thinking, “The sun is shining. It's got no business to be shining because I'm about to do something that I've been dreading.”
Therefore, there's a point in telling the reader the sun is shining. It wasn't just, oh, the sun is shining because I've got to say something about what the day looks like. It's that the sun is shining, and it's making me realize that I don't feel joyful at all.
On the other hand, if it's raining and the sky is completely gray, but you're thinking, “I don't care because I'm just having such a brilliant time. I'm soaked to the skin, but I don't mind because this place is just so refreshing. it's zinging all my senses.”
Again, that's a use of description, and it's specific. It's specific to a particular experience, and it involves the reader in what we're feeling. So description is really important. You don't have to know the word for it, the one word. What you do have to know is all the feelings you want the reader to understand when you drew their attention to a particular thing.
Joanna: Yes. Well, a few things to expand on there. So the first thing is how the character is feeling. When I re-edited my first novel, I did find that I'd written “feel” quite a lot. So, “Morgan felt something,” instead of describing more descriptive stuff around that, more details.
So maybe you could talk about “show, don't tell” and having characters say, “I am angry,” or, “Ross was angry,” as opposed to what else.
How do we do “show, don't tell” with emotion?
Roz: Well, “show, don't tell” is a very important dramatic principle. It gives the reader an experience. You could say, “She got wet,” or you could say, “She walked along the street. The rain trickled down the back of her collar, it was freezing cold. Even her shoes were absolutely sodden and squelched with each step.”
That's also, “she got wet.” That's you understanding what it feels like to get wet. But the telling version is, “She got wet.”
Now, it's a question of emphasis. Sometimes you don't need the reader to feel what it's like to get wet. Sometimes you just need to know she got wet, and then you move on because something else is more important. Sometimes it's important to dwell in that moment and give the reader the experience of getting wet, or feeling angry, or noticing something.
Often when we self-edit, we come to a passage and we think, oh, should I give the reader more of an experience here? Or should I just gloss over it because it's not so important?
It's often quite hard, actually, first of all, to know when you're showing and when you're telling, and when you should show and when you should tell. You can look for certain phrases like “she felt,” and “she got angry,” or “she got calm.”
If you look for phrases like that where you've kind of been a bit distanced, you could ask yourself, would I like to see what it's like if I just delve a bit more into the immediacy of the moment? So describe the feeling of anger, which might be someone saying, “I couldn't stand it if she happened to mention such and such,” or something like that.
Joanna: I think that's a good tip, actually. So really, when we talked before about the one word, so anger, and love, and grief, these are kind of the one words. If you find those one words in your manuscript, as well, “she loved him,” that can have so many deeper meanings that you really would want to expand in a lot of situations.
As you said, it is really hard, isn't it? Especially for newer authors to know—
When do you just expand everything into “showing, not telling,” and when do you just gloss over that?
Do you have any other tips there? Because you also edit other people's manuscripts, don't you?
Roz: Yes, I do. It is a question of just thinking, how much do I want the reader involved in this? Or does it not really matter?
Sometimes you can just say, “They drove to Denver,” and that's enough. You don't have to tell the reader what it was like driving to Denver, but if it might enhance the manuscript to do that, have a go at telling them what it felt like to drive to Denver.
Sometimes in editing my own work, I'll think, should I expand that or not? So I'll try expanding it, and occasionally I'll think, yes, that did work better. Or occasionally I'll think, no, I don't really need to dwell on that very much.
So sometimes you just have to experiment and think, is there more to find out about this that would actually make the book a better experience and would give the reader the experience that I am directing them towards?
You always have to be very conscious of where you're directing the reader's attention.
Joanna: Yes, it's interesting, that “going home to Denver.” Immediately, in my mind, I was thinking of someone going back to maybe their childhood home in Denver, and that feeling that we all get when you go back to your childhood home.
Then that made me think that you're not quite lost because you do go back to a childhood home. So again, it's so interesting what comes up.
To me, as a discovery writer, this is the process. It is, what does it spark in your head, and is that something you want to tap into even further?
Did you mean to write nostalgia into that book?
Roz: I discovered it was there. That's a really good point. With that particular piece that you're talking about, I discovered that my childhood home had been knocked down. I was just seized with the need to write about it.
Then I thought, well, why will anyone else care about my childhood home? So I had to make each point something that I hoped people could understand and follow my feeling through.
So, yes, I just got this powerful sense of nostalgia, and I just wanted to explore that. Childhood homes always got that from everybody. It's interesting that you picked up on that when I when I said, “Drive back to Denver.”
We all have our own resonances that we pick up on and emotions that we're interested in.
That's part of the delight of reading, that we get something very particular from a particular author, and another author might say something completely different about an experience. Again, that's why particular is very important.
Joanna: Yes, and this comes to intuition, which I'm pretty obsessed with at the moment, in terms of trusting that story intuition. I think sometimes writers overcorrect themselves. They might think, oh, that wouldn't be the thing to write here.
If you're feeling any sensation, or draw, or curiosity to this thing, then that's something you should write about.
You've been writing for a long time and you work with a lot of authors, how can we lean into that intuition and trust more?
Roz: I think it's essential to do that. That's where our style comes from. That's where our originality comes from. It's what moves us. I talked at the beginning about how the emotion that a reader gets is the genre, and that comes from what you are interested in and what you respond to as a human.
Joanna: Then I guess the other side of it is being careful, especially with emotional topics. You talked about grief before. Grief is obviously a big one. Relationships or family home can be very emotional.
How can authors use their emotion and their own experiences in their writing without getting overly dramatic or perhaps even hurting themselves in the process?
Roz: There are two aspects to this. There's one aspect of how deep can you go while protecting yourself, and only you know that.
You can get yourself a safe space where you can just experiment on the page. No one else needs to see it, no one ever will need to see it, and you can just write without judgment. Just letting whatever comes come, and you can get rid of it, you can decide not to use it.
If you do this very emotional kind of exploration, you can get better and better at it in terms of just seeing what comes and then deciding, I may use this, I may not. It's just something I'm doing privately between me and the screen.
If you're writing something that is destined to be in a book which other people will ultimately read, remember, you can self-edit. Remember, all drafts are rough in some way. There are things that we sort out at all different stages of the writing.
So you might get the plot right first, or you might get the general style right first. There might be particular scenes that you're always editing right up to the end because they are difficult for you to get right. No one else needs to know about all that, it just comes out to the reader perfectly in the end.
So you can edit any number of times. You can decide to try going deeper into a scene, you can then decide no, there was too much of that, but I might keep some of what I discovered as I was writing it. Discovery writing is a good phrase here, that phrase of yours. I think we can discovery edit.
Joanna: Yes, that's interesting. Maybe the “on the train to Denver” situation, you might have just written that in your first draft, and then on your second pass you might actually realize that nostalgia is an important part.
It's funny, again, what comes up in your mind. It made me think of Stranger Things. You know, Stranger Things, even though it's a horror/sci-fi, actually, a lot of its success comes from nostalgia. There's been a sort of revival of the 80s, and I know you're a Kate Bush fan.
Roz: Absolutely.
Joanna: That song, was it “Running Up That Hill,” is that the song? It went to the top of the charts again, after something like 30 years. Bless her, she's an independent artist.
Roz: She is the very epitome of independence. She absolutely set me on the path to being the kind of creator I wanted to be.
[Kate Bush] wrote what she was interested in, and she produced it herself, and yet, she's an absolute icon for me.
Joanna: That song is so interesting because I wasn't so into it at the beginning. Then I watched Stranger Things, and what they did with that—again, using TV, obviously, not a not a book, but a lot of people will have seen it—hooking nostalgia and care for that character. I think it's Max, the character, and also the horror.
It's a masterclass on how to mix various emotions into something much more powerful.
Connecting something to a song—and although remember everyone, you can't use lyrics in your books, don't use lyrics—but that kind of emotional resonance we get when we mix all that together, it's just so powerful.
Roz: It is. Resonance is an important word. I was talking at the beginning about educating the reader and making them understand what a character feels about a particular thing.
Later in a book, as I said, the reader should know the characters well enough to be feeling alongside them, as though they were friends. So it has such powerful resonance, it's like a song coming back.
They know, and they get the feelings, this instant rush of feeling. “Oh my goodness, if that happens, this will be awful.” Or, “This would be a dream come true.”
Joanna: Yes, another thing I was just thinking about there was the juxtaposition of emotions in genre. For example, in horror, you will often get a lighter scene, even some humor, to detract from the horror side of it.
I guess, again, Stranger Things would be a good example of that. You mentioned before being in control of the emotion—
You have to be really manipulative, don't you?
Roz: Totally manipulative. I often think that writing is a conjuring trick that the writer is doing with the reader's mind. You're absolutely right that we have to vary the emotions and the pace and the intensity.
You need to give the reader a rest, otherwise they just feel remorselessly bludgeoned by strong emotions. So the scene where things are a bit calmer, and quieter, and maybe a bit humorous, is very important for just giving the reader time to recharge before they're ready for another big thing.
Joanna: I mean, thinking again, Shonda Rhimes is really good at this. I mean, obviously, she's a screenwriter and the showrunner. Bridgerton, she does it so well in Bridgerton.
Also, Grey's Anatomy is the other one I was thinking of. You got this harrowing, people dying and everything, and then there's some kind of light emotion that will make you laugh. I find that really hard though.
I find it very hard to put those lighter notes in darker books. Any tips for that?
Roz: Yes, I learned to do this a very long time ago when I was writing thrillers. I devised a system for figuring out exactly what I was doing with the emotion in each scene. It's in my book Nail Your novel, the original one.
So I make a thing called a beat sheet. It's a very detailed outline of the entire book, and I note all the emotions going on in the scenes. From that, I can see whether I've got enough of a variety of emotions, and also pacing as well, just to make sure the reader doesn't get worn out before their time.
Joanna: That beat sheet, do you create that beforehand?
Are you an outliner, or do you do that later?
Roz: I am an outliner because I like to know where I'm going. I also give myself permission to veer off piste if something seizes me in the writing, and I think, oh, this is the true direction, I now have to do it. Then I might adjust my outline.
I find that if I write completely off into the sunset, I do get lost. So I do need to kind of pull the reins and bring myself back in.
I tend to make the beat sheet once I have got a finished manuscript. Then I use that to see what I should move around, what I should turn up. It's a really good way of disassociating myself from the scene-by-scene words on the page and seeing what I've got.
Pacing is really important for emotion because you want to make sure that the reader is getting the right information. I keep using this term information, but you are giving the reader information.
You're just giving them information they care about, and they want to know, and they're really curious about. So you have to sort of be careful about the order you do all that in and how you handle it.
Joanna: Just to encourage everyone listening, this sounds complicated, but I do think that at heart, we are human, we are emotional.
So if you are writing with that authenticity, like you mentioned, or you're making up that authenticity, because I haven't been in many of the situations I write about, but I feel like you can use the editing process to fix this up. You've given a number of tips there.
I do want to come back to a couple of things. First of all, setting an atmosphere in emotion. So I want to come back to the example you gave earlier, the car outside on the road and the person looking out the window.
How can we use setting and atmosphere to enhance the emotions?
Roz: If I was writing it, I would think about what the weather was like and how that seemed to enhance or contrast with the worry that the character was feeling. I'd start with the character's emotion, what are they feeling?
Then I'd have something like the sun glinting off a windscreen and think everything looks very normal in the street, but it's actually not because there's this really worrying car. I'd use the setting there to apparently be showing normality, but also highlighting the anxiety that the character is feeling.
Again, as I said, if you're trying to provoke the readers emotions, description is really important for that. It should always be as relevant as possible for what the character is feeling, what you want the reader to be interested in.
Description for its own sake, that's boring usually. Description for the sake of highlighting an emotion, or contrasting an emotion, or showing something impending, something worrying coming towards you for instance, that's always really interesting to the readers.
You have to think, what will the reader be interested in?
Joanna: Yes, and certainly genre plays a big part, as you mentioned. So, for me, there are storms on the horizon or the clouds that are black in the distance. There's lots of words for different colors you can use that are quite suspenseful, or quite horror, or quite thriller.
It would be very different if you were writing romance. You would use the weather and the setting in a different way. In fact, coming back to Stranger Things, they do this in the upside down. You might have a dead tree instead of a tree in bloom, and with flowers, and leaves and things.
So using that setting to portray the genre and the emotion at the heart of the genre, I think can be really powerful. Sometimes I feel like people worry, oh, I can't have a storm coming or black clouds because that's cliche.
As a reader, I see that as a signal of the story, and I almost expect that. Like if you're going to give me a horror novel with a climax, and there's no rain or thunderstorms or dramatic weather, then I might be disappointed.
Roz: Yes, and it's so genre specific as well. So if you're writing a haunted house story, then a crash upstairs is really a sign of trouble. If you're writing something cozier, then a crash upstairs is the wardrobe collapsing.
Joanna: Because the cat jumped off in a funny way.
Roz: Exactly. So all these noises, all these scene setting details, have their own vocabulary in different genres.
Something else that's really important is the language you use. The language is so evocative. By itself, a word can create a whole feeling. If you use a word like squash, you wouldn't really use that if you wanted tobe serious or dark.
Joanna: Unless it's Halloween, and it's like a pumpkin squash.
Roz: Even then I would probably say gourd because of the shape of the word. Every single word creates an atmosphere.
Joanna: I also wanted to ask about authors who might struggle to tap into their emotions, or they kind of know what they're feeling, but they don't really know how to describe it.
What are some ideas or tools for people who are struggling to name or write about what they're feeling?
Roz: First of all, that struggle is really interesting. Embrace it, because it shows that there is something you want to do, and you want to find out how to do it.
I often find myself thinking, I'm not describing this well and I'm not quite evoking this as well as I would like to. So I read other people who've done it well, and obviously not to copy them, but just to see how they did it.
So much of the stuff we read, we have no idea really what the author is doing with us, we just know they've done it. It's good to just go and study something that works on you really well. Think, what vocabulary did they use to make me feel that? What setup did they use earlier in the text, or maybe in the whole book, to bring me to this feeling?
So that's really important. I often find I just want to go and read somebody, even though I know what the book is and what's going to happen. I'll go back and read it and think, how did they do that particular thing? There's always something to learn from a book you've enjoyed.
The other thing is, it's practice as well. Don't be afraid of writing something that's bad at first. As I said, it's private for you, nobody's going to see it. All sorts of artists in all disciplines do roughs, where they're doing rubbish before they get to something that's good and usable.
Just experiment, and you'll get better at it, you'll get faster at it.
You'll get to the stage faster where you think, okay, this is usable, or that's not going anywhere, so I won't do that anymore. It's practice really.
Joanna: Yes, and as you say, noticing how other people write things, and then how you feel, and then more nuanced stuff. So again, I was just thinking of The Crown, which is a fantastic series.
There was one scene, I didn't even notice it but Jonathan, my husband, did. In one scene, I think it was with Diana and the rest of the Royals, there was a basket of snakes, like a basket of stuffed snakes, like right there on the screen.
I didn't even notice it, but it was one of those almost subtext atmosphere things that your subconscious would have noticed and felt a particular way about. Like you obviously would feel scared of a basket of snakes, or you'd feel like that whole thing about betrayal.
There's so much there that's rich that you might not have even noticed the first time around. If anyone is going to now watch The Crown, keep an eye out for that. I mean, that's a real advanced technique.
Roz: I will definitely keep an eye out for that. I haven't got to that bit of it yet.
Yes, that is an advanced technique, something like that. It apparently looks like they just put something there because they had to put something there, but they didn't, they thought very carefully, what am I going to put there? I'll put a basket of snakes, great.
Joanna: Yes, I love it. We can do that in our writing. You can just have something, like you walk through a room, but the things you write about that the character sees, some of those are going to give that kind of impression as well.
Roz: They will notice things that seem to be significant to their state at the time. As I was saying with the weather, they'll notice if it's making them uncomfortable, or they'll notice if it's making them feel life is good. They'll notice something odd, like there's a basket of snakes in the corner, why?
Joanna: What kind of house am I in?!
Roz: Something we haven't talked about is dialogue, because —
If you really want to get the reader involved, which emotion is all about, dialogue is a great way to do that.
You can get the reader to a state where you can have a few characters talking, and they are reading between the lines. They understand what something means to one person and what it means to another person. They understand if there's an awkward pause, that this might mean something. It might mean there's a danger area.
Dialogue is really important for getting across emotion and getting the reader immediately involved in the intensity of an emotion that's going on.
Joanna: Yes, and again, I'll come back to Succession on that. I actually heard that the writers' room, they actually filled with playwrights. Ones who were really used to doing dramatic theater which, of course, is dialogue heavy.
So I thought that was really interesting because in live theater, you don't get to do so much in terms of special effects, or changing the scenery, and all of that kind of thing. So the words have to do a lot of the heavy lifting. I definitely struggle with dialogue more than anything.
Any tips for emotion in dialogue?
Roz: I do find that I have to go over dialogue scenes again and again. That is because I love getting the nuance of it exactly right, and the performance.
What I often do is I take a lot of the verbal words out that the characters are saying to each other, and I try to put in more gestures and silences and maybe a little bit of something in the environment that seems to enhance what's going on. Say, a picture on the wall that a character notices and thinks, “Oh, that thing is so ugly.”
That's actually saying something about what they're feeling about being in the scene with that person. I love all those subtleties, but it does take a lot of time to get a dialogue scene right. So it may be that you're just doing them properly.
Joanna: Well, there have been lots of tips today.
Where can people find you and your books online in order to learn more?
Roz: You can find my website, that's probably the easiest way. It's RozMorris.org.
Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Roz. That was that was great as ever.
Intuitive Discovery Writing And Serial Fiction With KimBoo York
Jul 15, 2024
How can you lean into intuition and curiosity to embrace discovery writing? How might serial fiction fit into your business model? KimBoo York gives her tips and more in this interview.
This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.
KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy, and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach, and a podcaster at The Author Alchemist and Around the Writer's Table. Her latest book for authors is By the Seat of Your Pants: Secrets of Discovery Writing.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
What is discovery writing and how does it differ from plotting and outlining?
How trust and intuition guide discovery writing
Where to begin the discovery writing process
Adding layers during the writing and editing process
The “penny drop” moment of discovery writing
Embracing the process that works for you
Differences between a serial, a series, and a novel
Platforms and marketing for different genres of serials
Joanna: KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach, and a podcaster at The Author Alchemist and Around the Writer's Table. Her latest book for authors is By the Seat of Your Pants: Secrets of Discovery Writing. So welcome, KimBoo.
KimBoo: Thank you so much, Joanna. You know I am thrilled to be here. I'm very excited.
Joanna: Oh, good. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
KimBoo: I'm one of those bog standard, ‘I wanted to be a storyteller since I was a kid.' I loved reading as a kid. I loved telling stories. I think I got into fanfiction when I was like 10 years old, which was like after the original Star Wars. We're talking in the 70s, because I'm old, Joanna, so this was a long time ago.
In the modern era, let's say, I got back into writing original fiction, again, through fanfiction. I came into fanfiction during a very rough time of my life, in about 2007/2008. I wrote a lot, and doing that got me back into the habit of writing regularly. I had given up on it throughout the 90s because I just kind of decided nobody was ever going to publish what I wrote. The publishing industry was just too hidebound, didn't want people like me.
Eventually, some friends of mine got published, got their original fiction published, and they were like, you could do it too. So I did eventually get published by a small indie publisher in 2011.
I eventually went totally independent, self-published later. I got the rights back to my books and republished them, and I've kind of just been rolling on ever since.
In early 2023, I really rejuvenized my author career. I realized the way things were going. As you and I talked about before the recording started, serial fiction is a huge growth area right now, and because of my experiences in fanfiction, I love the serial format. So that really just got me back into the game. So that's where I am right now. I'm trying to make it all work, juggling a bunch of plates.
Joanna: Okay, wow. We're gonna come back to the serial side because I definitely want to talk about that.
I do just want to mention the fanfiction. I feel like this is something that doesn't get talked about very much. Given that you did quite a lot of it before writing your own stuff, just remind people what is the legal aspect of fan fiction. In terms of—
Can people publish what they write in fanfiction worlds?
KimBoo: So the straight legal answer is no. You can't make money off of fanfiction. There's a lot of people who are doing gray areas in that, I do not recommend it. Fanfiction is a hobby, fanfiction is a pastime.
There's been some legal contest of it. I'm in the US, so that's where the copyright laws I'm familiar with. It differs by country, as you well know, Joanna. So, no, you can't make money off of fanfiction. It's a hobby.
That said, there's lots of places where you can share your fanfiction. There's Archive of Our Own, quickly known as AO3, which is basically a repository where people can post their fanfiction that they're working on. That is huge. I think that's like the third biggest site in the world right now. It's massive.
So there's a lot of community there, which I think is the most valuable aspect of fanfiction. In fact, I am now working on a book called Out From Fanfiction which chronicles my own journey, and also gives people advice on how to morph from writing fanfiction to original fiction. They're not the same, but fanfiction can be a great learning ground for you if that's your passion.
Joanna: I think that's great and really important to say. It's good for us to remember too, as we create our own original characters. It's like you kind of want to encourage people to love characters enough to write about them, but not to publish books about them.
I'd be really interested in that book when it comes out because I feel like a lot of people get started there. Let's get into the current book on discovery writing. So let's define that.
What is discovery writing? How does it differ from plotting or outlining?
KimBoo: So a lot of times people describe discovery writing as the absence of. Like you are not using an outline, you are not using a summary, you are not planning it out ahead of time.
I find discovery writing, in a more positive description, is that you're leaning into your curiosity. So you're not deciding ahead of time what happens to your character specifically.
You might know that your character's going on a trip. They're a pirate, and they're going to go pirating around the Caribbean.
You don't know specifically like where they're going to go, or how they're going to get there, and what they're going to encounter along the way. You don't know because that excites you as a writer.
So you get into it because you're like, “I want to know what happens next!” So that same rush that a lot of people get when they're reading a story is a foundational aspect of using discovery writing as a technique.
That's one of the things I really push in my book is that discovery writing is a technique. It is a technique you use with outlining, using story beats, without any of those things. It's a technique that you can hone and improve upon over time by practicing it. So that's kind of the short version of what I think discovery writing is and how it can be useful to writers.
Joanna: I love this. I do think your book is fantastic as a discovery writer. Well, as I was saying, I wrote a chapter on this in my How To Write a Novelbook, but you've got a whole book on it.
At first, it was funny because I was like, how has she done a whole book on this? As you said, you actually do go through various levels of techniques and all that.
I do want to come back to this positive choice, as in it's not like the thing that's left over if you don't do plotting. I feel like almost that's the same as being an indie author. So many people have this sort of, “oh, I can't get traditionally published, so I will self-publish.”
In the same way, this is like a positive choice for a career, this is a positive choice— Well, although I say that, I often feel like I have tried to plot, but it just is not me. So perhaps—
Is there something more innate about being a discovery writer?
KimBoo: I think there is in some way. Joanna, we both know people who do outlines. Some people do like a one sentence outline for each chapter. Some people have 30-page outline treatments. That's per author, that's how their brain works.
I did work in disability services in higher education for about 10 years. One of the most valuable things I took away from that experience working with people and students in the college environment was everybody's brain works differently.
So I do think that there is a certain level of inclination for people like us, that that is how our brain works. We need that dopamine serotonin rush of curiosity to get us into the story.
I hear a lot of writers, and it was certainly my experience as well, that when they wrote an outline, and it was a great outline for a great story, their brain kind of felt like they could write the story because they had already thought that it was written. Like it was already over, there was nothing left.
I've tried, like you, I've tried using outlines. Every time I do, I either don't write the story at all because I'm just like, well, that's done. Or I try to write it according to the outline, and then I go off script completely because my curiosity takes me in a different direction.
So I think there is a certain level of inclination there. Then again, you know, I have used outlining and reverse outlining. So outlining is a tool that I use, it's a technique that has been helpful for me in writing my books, but I am more inclined to discovery writing.
Joanna: Yes, I agree. It's very interesting. We're all different, but actually, you and I are quite similar it sounds, in terms of our writing.
You mentioned “the rush” before. I was thinking about this —
That moment of synchronicity comes, and you didn't know where it was going to happen, but at some point, the story just makes sense.
I also write out of order, which makes it even more of a discovery process, I guess.
It's like I just don't know how these things are going to connect, but at some point, something happens, and it does connect. You have a whole section on intuition, so how do we trust this process? Like, can we learn more skills? Or do we just have to trust that we're going to make it?
KimBoo: So the answer to that question is yes, because you do have to lean into trusting the process. I think this is the hardest part for all writers, right? It's just sitting down and doing the writing and trusting that words are going to come. That is an important part of it.
I do think that honing that skill is something that you can actively work on in practice. Like as much as I want people to read my book, my book can help you, but it's not going to write your books for you. So that's the catch 22 we are always in.
If anybody has not read her book on intuition, I do highly recommend it. Intuition is something that you can build on and improve and create a foundation of understanding that works with your discovery writing instincts to help you write better off the mark.
There's nothing that can't be fixed in editing, as they say.
The more you practice discovery writing consciously as a technique, and the more you build up your intuition by studying your craft, and fixing problems, and talking with other writers, and then getting critiques and editing, the stronger your discovery writing will be.
So I do think it is a skill you can build up. The bad news is you have to do it by actually writing.
Joanna: Or the good news, because that's the fun of it. You mentioned Dean Wesley Smith, I love Dean. He's been a mentor for me for many years. It's funny, I still disagree with him on editing.
So he kind of says you don't need an editor, you just need like a proofreader. I've “only” written like between 40 and 50 books now, and Dean has written like 400 books over the last four decades. So I feel like they are tools, as you say. Editing is a tool, really, to improve our work.
Let's just go back to the beginning. You and I know what we mean by this, but you talk about practicing it as a technique. So just explain, like someone is staring at the blank page—
How does someone start with discovery writing?
KimBoo: So one of the easiest ways to do it is to ask yourself, “And then what? What next?” It's very improvisational in nature.
So if you know anything about theatre improvisation, the big thing for them is, “Yes, and.” My version of that is, “What next?”
So you're sitting there, you have a character in mind, and they're there at a coffee house, sitting down and drinking tea. You know there's got to be some kind of meet cute or inciting incident. Like you know that, but what is it? What is it going to be?
So you sit there and you think, well, what next? What would be the most dramatic thing that could happen?
Oh, well, maybe a dragon falls through the roof. Or maybe the tea shop gets held up at gunpoint. Or maybe somebody sits down and says, “Here's the secret code that we talked about earlier,” and your character doesn't know what's going on.
So trying to charge up that creativity and lean into it, rather than saying, “Okay, so now this person has to have this. This is what has to happen next.” Just ask yourself, what could happen next? What might happen next? Lean into that, and then write.
Sometimes you're going to end up going back and saying no, that wasn't what happened next, and something else needs to happen. You're not going to know that until you start the writing process.
Lean into the curiosity by asking yourself, what next?
What's most dramatic thing that can happen next? What's the saddest thing that can happen next? What's the happiest, most joyous thing that could happen next? Just kick those gears into motion, I think is the easiest way to go about it.
Joanna: Yes, and this is interesting too, because I feel like our author voice is related quite a lot to our sense of curiosity and who we are.
So you mentioned a dragon falling down from above or whatever. That is never, ever, ever going to happen in one of my books as J.F. Penn because I don't do dragons. What's more likely is the character is going to fall through the floor into a crypt full of bones underneath.
KimBoo: There you go.
Joanna: There you go, and there's an idea. That only kind of came to me through the person in the cafe.
Now I wondered, and I haven't prepped you with this question, but in my head, I see that person in the cafe, and I see them falling into the crypt, and I can see the crypt. Like I could physically describe that for you because I am a very visual person.
How is that for you? I feel like I hear from some people they hear voices, so they hear dialogue. I never, ever, ever hear dialogue. I struggle with dialogue, but I think I'm pretty good at visual description. So talk a bit about that and how—
These choices we make creatively are based on our voice and how our brains work.
KimBoo: That is such a great observation that you made. Like for me, dragon falling through the roof would totally be what happens. Whereas for you, it's they fall down into a crypt.
I would never have that falling into a crypt, like I would never do that. So our experience in what interests us is what comes to the fore when we start leaning into that curiosity.
I do find it interesting because I am very visual, but I'm also audio. When I write, to me, and I know there are some writers out there like this, I'm watching a movie with audio, it's not just the scene.
So I'm very good at dialogue, and sadly, not quite as good as descriptions, which is ironic because I can see it in my head. For me, it's very much watching a scene unfold, and then like being in the movie theater in the dark, and eating popcorn, and seeing what's going to happen next.
I do know that there are some discovery writers who don't have that kind of visual cue. They usually do have, as you said, audio cues. They're listening to something, the characters talking, or they just have an idea that springboards into words on the page.
It's very unique for each author, and I think that forms your author voice and builds upon your intuition.
What you know works for you, and what works for you as a reader, is what will come into play as a discovery writer or somebody who's using discovery writing as a technique.
Joanna: We should acknowledge that some people do not see anything. I've had several people on the show who have no mind's eye, as such. There's nothing wrong with anyone. However you are experiencing the world is up to you.
I think what's fascinating as writers is that what we see is the end product. You would have absolutely no clue how that got from the person's head to the finished product.
It doesn't matter if you're a discovery writer or a plotter, or you dictate, or whatever you do, it literally doesn't matter. It's going to be the same in the future.
The other thing I was going to mention was layering, or Dean Wesley Smith uses circling. I think I kind of circle. So for example, I will circle back and add dialogue.
Even while I'm writing the scene, it will be like, okay, write, write, write, write, write all the stuff I can see, and then oh, yeah, I guess I better go back and put some dialogue in if there's two characters, or some emotion. I definitely have to go back and add emotion. So how do you do this?
How do you add these layers?
KimBoo: So a couple of things I talk about in my book are techniques, or approaches, rather, to discovery writing. There's the recursive style, which is what you're talking about with circling. So you're laying something down, and then you recursively go back, you reread it, you add elements to it as you go along.
Sometimes, for me, I get far enough into a story that when I go back, I realized that something that I put in there earlier actually is very important for this later scene. So my brain is laying down those layers as I go, sometimes without me even knowing it.
There's also the bridging technique, which I think is something you use as well. I don't use it as much because I do write out of order a little bit sometimes, but it's not a mainstay for me as a technique.
You do bridging. You have these out of order scenes, and then you bridge between them. The creativity and the curiosity comes into play for people who use that technique, by wondering how they're going to get from one thing to another.
It may seem like those two points are so disparate that they can never be connected, but you know they can. So you're curious yourself in building and weaving all those images together to create a story.
So a lot depends on what you're comfortable in writing and how you lay down those things. The more experience you get, I think a lot of times your subconscious is more engaged and layering down things for you.
The recursiveness of discovery writing is a feature, not a bug.
That's one thing I try to tell people. It's like going back and reading what you've already read, or going back and adding things to what you've already written, is you building up the foundations to continue with the creativity and the curiosity.
You may even go back and lay down things that you're not really sure you have an answer to yet. That's where the trust comes in.
You've got to be able to trust your intuition and your instincts as a discovery writer to know that, well, either I'll come back and cut that out, or that is something that I will come back to for some reason that I don't even know yet.
Joanna: Yes, that's happened a lot. I think the other thing for me is —
My first self-edit is very important, in that I know that there will be some problems.
That first draft which I print out and I do it by hand, there's often a lot of arrows, or move this to A, or move B to C.
Some of my hand edits
I write out of order, so that actually happens quite a lot. It's like, oh, I need to write another thing here, or why is this here? So there's a lot of moving things around and restructuring.
To me, that's part of my process. Again, it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just the way I do it. So how do your edits go? Are you cleaner in the edit, like Dean?
How do you do that edit?
KimBoo: I'm a little bit cleaner in the edit, but that's because I'm a heavy recursive writer. So I go back, and I will re-read two chapters behind before I even start writing. So I do a lot of on-the-road editing, in a way. When I finally get to the end, I rarely have to move scenes around.
I would say the two-thirds mark is where I always end up with problems. That's where things start collapsing in on themselves, and I have to do a full edit of everything I've written so far.
So I'm doing a lot of editing as I go, which is funny to me because people like you are like, “This is my third draft.” Then I'm just like, this is my first draft of the book, but it's like the 45th draft of this particular scene.
So as a recursive writer, I do a lot of editing as I go. That's not true for all recursive writers, as you point out, Joanna, everybody's process is valid. That's just how my brain works, I need to have the back end pretty well structured in order for me to keep going forward into the unknown.
Joanna: Yes, and actually, earlier you mentioned reverse outlining, which I also do. I also, like you —
Probably around 50%, I sometimes just lose the plot entirely. At that point, I will reverse outline.
I'll just write the chapters in a few lines as to what the hell's happening.
I do often have to reread the whole thing at around 50%. So I guess in a way, that's almost where you are, but I don't do much, and then I suddenly have to do a bunch of it.
Then the penny drops, and then I know how to move on.
So again, I think that's quite a normal part of the process, isn't it?
KimBoo: It is, and I love the phrase that you use, “the penny drops.” With so many discovery writers I talk to, there always does seem to be that moment somewhere along the process where the penny drops, where it all just comes together.
Joanna: That's the fun bit!
KimBoo: That's the part I love for. I'm like, “Oh, now I get it!” Sometimes it's frustrating because I'm not there yet. I'm like, I know the penny is going drop at some point, darn it, but I'm not there yet.
Joanna: Yes, and I love that you have that too. I call that synchronicity, what Carl Jung calls synchronicity. That is the moment when you realize your intuition has been right all along and that you were going to get there.
Probably that's the biggest lesson for people listening is, I mean, it takes time to trust this. I think it was probably only when Becca wrote that book on intuition that I finally accepted my writing process.
It was probably over a decade of trying to deny my process. How about you?
KimBoo: Same, exactly the same, Joanna. That's one of the reasons I wrote this book. I was talking to a good friend of mine Gina Hogan Edwards, she's a historical fiction writer. We were talking about process and she's very into outlining.
I encouraged her to use discovery writing techniques, and it really opened up her writing in a lot of ways.
I wanted to be able to take away that stigma. I wanted to be able to say, look, this is just another technique. This isn't bad.
You aren't a bad writer. You're not a terrible person for not having an outline at the start, like pre-planning.
It did take me so long, and I felt so broken. I would write these outlines, and then I wouldn't be able to write the story. That's just a terrible feeling. For anybody who's gone through that, I totally get that. It did take me a long time.
Coming back to fanfiction, one of the breakthroughs for me was when I was looking at my fanfiction at some point, this was 2018, 2019, 2020, I don't remember exactly when. But I realized that most of the fiction I wrote, and certainly the most popular stories I've written in fanfiction, were all written by the seat of the pants.
I started realizing maybe this is my technique. Maybe this is how I can get back to writing as a professional author who enjoys my work and enjoys the stories that I'm writing.
It's the penny drop moment. I was just like, oh, I'm already doing this. Maybe I should apply this to my own original fiction and see what happens, so it took a while.
Joanna: As we're talking, I am wondering if the reason plotting is considered so much more acceptable is that when you submit to a publisher or an agent, you generally submit three chapters and an outline of a book. Or if you already have a traditional deal, for the next book, they'll want an outline.
It's so funny, I talked to someone the other day about this, and she was like, “Oh, if you're going to submit, you do this.” I'm like, well, I couldn't do that because I have to finish the book before I can do an outline. So that's just crazy. So I mean, it just struck me as we were talking, what do you think? Do you think that's why it's become so much more acceptable?
The assumption is that you will do an outline.
KimBoo: I think that's part of it, but I would go back further than that. I think that a lot of times when you look at people who are teaching creative writing historically, in the 20th century and throughout those years, discovery writing tends to be the first thing that a lot of new writers do.
They have an idea, they sit down, they write a story. Oftentimes, it's not a very good story. Then they go to try to get education, they try to learn how to do the craft.
So all these teachers and educators are looking at these stories and go, “See, this is a bad technique. You need to outline first, and then you won't have these problems.”
So I think it was like kind of a problem solving method for a lot of creative writing teachers to really hone in technique onto newer writers. Then it just expanded.
Yes, I think the traditional publishing want those outlines because they're hedging their bets. For them, it's a business, they want to know what the full story is before they invest any money in it. So I think it's a lot of these elements at play.
As you were saying earlier with indie publishing and self-publishing, the times have changed. So now we can talk about these different techniques.
We can say that there are ways that a person like you, Joanna, can make a whole career writing a lot of books using this technique and be successful on your own terms, without having to conform to the way someone else wants you to present your work. That's certainly a privilege for us to be living in an era when that's true.
Joanna: I literally have not outlined or plotted any of my books!
KimBoo: That's awesome. I love it.
Joanna: I think it was Rachael Herron I talked to about this. I was having a private conversation, and I was like, “Oh, why can't I just change?” She was like, “Look, you've managed to write all these books. What is even the problem?”
KimBoo: Exactly. That was kind of my thought. Then I'm like, wait, hold on, I've written all these stories just doing it this way. Maybe I can keep doing it that way.
Joanna: Yes, like you're not broken. So I hope that this has really helped people listening. Of course, it might be interesting to people who do plot. There's nothing wrong with that either.
KimBoo: They're okay people too! You can't help yourselves, you just have to outline. We get it.
Joanna: Yes, fair enough.
I do want, while you're here, I'm also interested in your other book for authors which is Become an Unstoppable Storyteller: How to Craft Compelling Serials. Now, I don't read serials, so I don't even try to write serials, but I know many people are interested. So first up, tell us—
What is the difference between a serial, a series, and just a novel?
KimBoo: So the very basic rule of thumb, and I just want to start by saying that these categories are very flexible. You know, these are all modern categories, there's just so many different ways to tell a story. My rule of thumb is that a serial consists of a story with nested story arcs.
Now, you can have a novel series that has nested story arcs, but generally a novel itself has a story arc. It's either the three act structure, the seven act structure, save the cat, or the hero's journey. That is the main structure.
The individual character arcs in a novel will dip and turn, but they all adhere to that one main story structure. With some novel series, or what I would call a legitimate serial, there could be a very long story arc while there's smaller story arcs within it.
Of course, the best example that we can give for this these days is a television show. Like you have something, like Game of Thrones or some long running show, that has big story arcs that go across multiple seasons even. Then you have the smaller story arcs that are the monster of the week, or the dragon or the week, or the killer of the week, whatever that might be.
Those individual story arcs kind of exist not quite independently, but they do exist within the larger story arc and feed into it, but aren't necessarily the same as larger story arcs. So that's a very short and definitely incomplete description of how I would describe serials.
Some serials, for instance, One Piece, which is popular right now because the live action, that's a manga that has over 1000 volumes. These types of stories can go on, and they're just searching for the one piece.
They're searching for thing, that's the whole long story arc. But you have the shorter story arcs that are just absolutely brilliant that rest on that longer story arc.
Joanna: A lot of people hear about the success some people are having on serial platforms. I get this question all the time. Should I just post my chapters on serial platforms, like take my finished novel and just post chapter by chapter on a serial platform?
I generally say no, because most serial chapters are not the same as actual chapters in a book. As you say, you need to keep people reading through. So what do you think about that?
Can you take just any novel and post it on a platform for serial writing?
KimBoo: Absolutely, you can. A lot of romance writers do that, and I use romance writers because they're certainly the biggest ones who are taking advantage of that.
They treat it as a funnel to their books. So when you have a novel, and you're splitting it up, and you're posting the chapters, you're serializing it. It's not a serial, but it is being serialized. If people are comfortable with that, it can be a great way to funnel readers into your book ecosystem, into buying the books.
I would stress:
Know your own business model, know your own comfort zone, and know your readers. Serial readers and book readers don't always overlap.
So you can grab some serial readers with a serialized novel, and they may not buy the book. You may get some people who will look at a serial and go, I'll wait until it's done and buy the book. Then you're going to have some overlap.
I think it's possible, but again, I really caution people to know your own business model, what you're doing. Know your audience, are they people who read serials at all? For instance, like the thriller novel demographic, they're not big on serials.
Joanna: No, not at all.
KimBoo: Not at all. If you are writing like LitRPG, or you're writing romance, some form of romance, yes, you can get a big readership serializing your work. Just be aware of how that feeds into the whole ecosystem that you're building for your business.
Joanna: What are the main platforms for selling serials?
KimBoo: So Ream is a new up and coming one. I'm on Ream. I really like their approach, and I like what they're doing. A lot of people look at it and see there's a lot of romance authors there, but it is for all genres.
For instance, my friend Gina that I mentioned, she's actually serializing her historical fiction novel. It's not romance at all. She's doing that on Ream. So there's a lot of opportunity there on Ream, but there are other platforms.
Some authors are on Patreon, which has its own issues, depending on what you're writing. Some people self-host it, which you can do these days, of course with WordPress, you could do it on Wix, you can do it on Kajabi, you could do it on Squarespace.
There are a lot more options for writers these days to either self-host their own subscriptions or use other platforms to do it. There are a lot of different platforms out there.
I will say this, that these days, platforms like Wattpad, Royal Road, Inkitt, they have their own specific demographics. Like on Royal Road, it's very much fantasy and LitRPG. Wattpad is still heavily romance oriented.
If you're going to be giving away free chapters on those platforms, then look carefully at the demographics. There's so many options these days, and I do go into that in my book Become an Unstoppable Storyteller, different options for posting.
There's still Vella and Radish, which are ways to get money, but it's more like the Kindle Unlimited model. People are subscribing and you're just getting a piece of the pie in that model. So it just depends on what your tolerance level is for how much control you have over your property.
Joanna: Yes,
Definitely read those contracts! And when we say contracts, people, we mean the terms and conditions when you upload a file to a site. That is a contract.
KimBoo: Yes, absolutely yes.
Joanna: There are some difficult ones, let's say. We are recording June 2024, you could go to one of these sites now and it might be fine, and then you upload another book in a month's time and it might be different. So I think it's very important to look at this.
So you mentioned the demographics are different, you write different kinds of books and serials.
How are you marketing serials differently than you are marketing books?
KimBoo: So with books, I'm much more focused on—I'm not running a lot of advertisements right now, but I'm gearing up to do that for the last half of this year. I've been busy for this last year, putting all the pieces in place for my own business model.
So for books, I'm going to be using things like Facebook ads more. For instance, The Queen's Aerie, which is a love triad, fantasy romance novel, I did serialize that. I actually serialized it early access on Ream for paying followers.
I then, much later down the road, put chapters up for free on Wattpad, and Inkitt, and Archive of Our Own. So people can go read the whole book for free.
Then I will be doing advertisements for buying the book itself, and possibly doing a Kickstarter down the road for doing an audio version or a special bound edition for it. So there's a lot of different ways I'm trying to funnel people into my author ecosystem.
I know you've talked to Joe Solari, and he's somebody I really admire. Much bigger brain than I have. One thing I took away from a lot of his lessons is to be aware of all the different ways you could reach out and reach your audience.
So I do have a Substack, The Scriptorium, which is my blog. There I focus less on the fiction and more on the nonfiction, which is something else that I write, because nonfiction people aren't going to be on Ream.
I know that if I want to reach other authors to talk about my books on writing and my craft books, Ream is a bad place for that. I need to be doing it on my Scriptorium blog. There's just a lot of moving parts on something like that, but I think I will be using advertising for my books more than I would be doing for my serials so far.
Serials as a popular format subscription platform, particularly, are still very new. So I think there's still a lot of poking and prodding by authors who are using subscription models on what kind of advertisement actually works well. I haven't seen a lot of success on that yet.
So we're still relying heavily on organic growth, which is not ideal, but we're figuring it out.
Joanna: These are kind of a borrow model, aren't they, with a serial, or they pay a micro payment, or they get it as part of their subscription. So it is kind of difficult to get the return on investment with, say, a Facebook ad. Unless, I guess, it's a really long thing or, like you say, like a book one in a series.
I think it's so interesting, this kind of splintering effect. There's so many platforms for different types of readers and consumers, because you could also do audio serials, audio fiction. So let's just mention podcasting.
You've got two podcasts. How does this fit into your business and your marketing?
KimBoo: So here's the thing that I think when I get back to talking about knowing your own business model. So my business model is not niching down, my business model is not “I write dark romance, and that's all I do.”
My business model is me, as a person. Me as a writer and the voice that I bring to my stories.
I want people to read my stories because I wrote them, not because they're a love triad fantasy with dragon shifters. So for me, it's a lot about personal marketing.
The Author Alchemist Podcast I started a long time ago when I had a completely different business model. I've morphed it a little bit to talk more about mindset, process, and productivity, which is a new tagline for it.
Because I am a productivity coach, I talk to a lot have authors and creatives about what it takes to be productive and what kind of productivity tools you can use. So I'm focusing more on that on The Author Alchemist side.
The Around the Writer's Table, I'll be honest with you, that's a fun gig. That's me with two of my best friends. We all had great conversations around writing and creativity, and so we started that because we just wanted to share what we were talking about. So that's more of a vanity project, really.
I do love what we've talked about. I encourage people to go listen to that because we've covered some fascinating topics. That one doesn't quite fit into my model so much, it's just something that's fun and gets my voice out there. That's kind of how it is.
I really think that, and you've heard me mention this a lot in this conversation about business models, and I know in one of your earlier podcasts you were talking about Spear of Destiny and how you're doing Kickstarter, and then you're also doing preorder.
The preorder, of course, is available later. People who sign up for the Kickstarter are going to get the book earlier. To me, that really represents what we're talking about when we talk about splintering. It sounds like a negative term, but to me, it's like it's reaching readers where they are.
There's some people who aren't going to support your Kickstarter, they're just not. There's some people who love preorders, and so they're going to go and do the preorder. There's some people who just want the audiobook, they're just going to wait for the audiobook.
So you, of course, have multiple different versions of audiobooks and different ways people can access audiobooks.
It's all about reaching people where they are.
So when I look at my business model, which is selling me as an author and my voice, it's less, “Oh, here's a podcast on the side.” It's, “Here's something that people can get to know me.”
In fact, I've started doing a daily short on YouTube called Coffee with KimBoo, where I just talk about what I'm going to be doing that day. It's just to get people to know me as a writer and be interested in me. So that's my business model, and that's not the business model for other people.
Joanna: It's pretty much my business model!
KimBoo: Not everybody, but certainly the two people in this virtual room right now.
Joanna: I think it's interesting, I do feel this is more and more important. You know, I've said many times now to double down on being human, and kind of proving that you are a human.
We're all weird in our way, and some people like us, and some people don't. That's fine.
I was thinking about my use of social media the other day, and I was thinking, you know what, I am using social media now more as a proof that I am human. Posting photos and kind of things like that much more than I used to.
It used to be more about like marketing or whatever. Now it's sort of evidence that I'm human. So I love that Coffee with KimBoo idea. I don't want to do it myself, but I think that's really interesting. For people listening, doing more of that, more about you, I think is a really good idea. So we are out of time.
Where can people find you, and your books, and your podcasts online?
KimBoo: I do have an online hub. I call it a hub, but it's a website. It's HouseofYork.info. So that's House of York, all one word, dot i-n-f-o. You'll have links there to all my books, there's a section on my books. There's a link to all my podcasts, and also my podcast shows. So any interviews I've done are on that page as well.
Also to join my online membership club for writers called 1 Million Words Club. It's on Discord, and it's focused more on productivity and process than craft. So it's a little bit different, but we have a great group of people there. So you can find out all about that at HouseofYork.info.
Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, KimBoo. That was great.
KimBoo: It's been wonderful, Joanna. Thank you so much.
Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain
Jul 08, 2024
How can you make sure your manuscript is ready for submission to an agent — or for publication if you go indie? What are the benefits and challenges of traditional publishing? Will they really do all the marketing for you? Renee Fountain talks about these things and more in today's interview.
This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com
Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Main issues seen with manuscript submissions
Is your manuscript overwritten?
Tips on pacing
What is developmental editing?
Key elements of a pitch package and query letter
Will traditional publishers do all the marketing for you?
Using an agent to get a TV or film deal vs. going indie
Joanna: Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing. So welcome to the show, Renee.
Renee: Thank you very much. Great to be here.
Joanna: Yes, indeed. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into the publishing industry, and what you do now.
Renee: Well, I've loved books since I was a little kid. I was that kid getting yelled at for reading under the covers with a flashlight when I was supposed to be sleeping.
So after a bunch of boring jobs, I wanted to do something I love. So I was living in San Diego at the time, and Harcourt Brace was the only publisher there. So I thought, I'm going to do that. I started in the very boring division of accounting guides before landing a coveted spot in children's books. I eventually moved back to New York City, just in time for 9/11. So that kind of dashed my hopes of growing my publishing empire.
Now I'm wearing a few hats. I'm a literary agent—when I did come back to New York, I did go with Simon and Schuster eventually. So now I'm wearing a few hats.
I'm a literary agent. I'm a developmental editor, working with writers in my private business. I'm also on the faculty of Manuscript Academy, working with writers there. I'm also writing reviews for Kirkus Indie because it's one of the few ways I get to keep my own writing skills sharp while dipping my toe in the indie pool.
Joanna: A portfolio career, as they call it.
Renee: Sure, why not?
Joanna: I say I'm a multi-passionate creative, so don't put me in a one-genre box! Now, when you pitched me, it was really interesting. You said,
“I get a lot of manuscript submissions that are just not query ready.”
I was like, oh, my goodness, that is a super juicy topic. So let's get into that. What are the main issues you see with those manuscript submissions?
Renee: Mostly it's the writing, whether at a line level or the overall story structure. It could be the writing isn't strong enough yet or the word count may be too high for the genre they're writing. It's mostly due to loose writing, bad pacing, excessive description, or the scene goes on way too long.
Or what I call “story for story sake.” Just telling the reader a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter in the big picture, no matter how interesting it is. You'll know if you have that if you take out that section and it still makes sense. So it's just a lot of things just aren't quite gelling yet.
I've talked to so many people that are just like, “Well, I want to work on a new project, so I just need to get it out there.” Like it's a time limit, and you've got to shove it out the door. You really don't. You really need to take your time.
Joanna: There's a few things to come back on there. I want to address the word count first because this is really interesting, and people don't really understand why word count is an issue.
Could you talk a bit more about word count for some of the most common genres and why it's a problem if it goes on too long?
Renee: I hear a lot of talk about they say that for my first book, I shouldn't exceed X amount of words. Well, if your story holds it, then it's fine. The problem is when you say, “Oh, Renee, I've written this 150,000-word romance.” It's like, mmm, probably not.
I mean, I know you wrote it, but you probably have a lot of stuff in there that doesn't need to be there. So genre in general has a word count that you should kind of be shooting for.
A thriller can be done between 70 and 90, depending on the story. Fantasy is one of the few things that are going to go above 100. That's really what we're looking for. You know, you talk about red flags when you see a query, it's like if I see 150,000-word romance, I know there's a problem.
Joanna: So back in the day, I understood it to be that word count was very much about spine size. So you mentioned there thrillers, 70,000 to 90,000. I write thrillers, but I write shorter thrillers than that. I mean, 70 would be the highest.
When most books are sold online, how big a deal is spine size?
Or is it more about, for example, editorial budget for 150,000 words is much more than a 60,000-word book?
Renee: Well, I mean, with George R.R. Martin still getting published with his microscopic font in his giant 1000-plus page books, like I say, he's still sticking in genre, but I don't know how much times have changed now.
Editing in the Big Five, they really want you to do all that heavy lifting before it gets to them. Things have evolved, it's changed.
I never really thought of it in terms of spine size so much as what the story tends to hold. So if you've ever seen 150,000-page romance, that's quite the book. You have to imagine it's overwritten.
Now, opposed to going the other direction of having something where the word count is too small. Like if you said, “Renee, I wrote this 52,000-word romance,” or whatever it is, the problem becomes pricing at that point. They really like the sweet spot of around 70. They really don't like it under that because of the pricing issue.
Joanna: Yes, this is so funny. I feel like we've been so boxed in with pricing because of Amazon's $9.99 cap as well. I read a lot of nonfiction too, and nonfiction can be shorter and readers will pay more. It really is only a fiction issue with pricing, I think.
Renee: Yes, you expect nonfiction to be a slightly lower count. Somewhere in the 60s and higher, depending on the topic. I think where nonfiction comes in is that you can be more direct in whatever it is, the issue that you're talking about.
It can also go higher. If it's a narrative nonfiction, you're going to another 320-page, 350-page book. So it all varies within there too, but yes, they can hold a lower count.
Joanna: Well, let's come back to the word ‘overwritten.' You know what that means, but it's very hard to know what it means when you're the author.
What are some ways that an author could analyze their own manuscript to find whether or not they have overwritten?
Or you mentioned story for story sake. How do people know that they have these problems without working with an editor first?
Renee: Well, I think with a lot of stuff with authors, it's tough. You can be a great writer, but you've been working on it so long, you can't see the forest for the trees anymore, and your brain fills in all the gaps.
So sometimes it's hard to see it for yourself, and that's where you get a fresh pair of eyes. Whether that's a professional editor, or whether that's another author that you admire, that their books are good.
Anybody who understands pacing because that's where it's all going to come into, the fact that you have the story for story sake. You're writing this long scene, and you're describing everything on the person's desk and everything on the walls, trying to “set the scene,” but none of it is really that important.
You're giving the reader a lot to remember and think about. Whereas if on that desk was a secret relic, that magical thing, yes, you're going to say, “among the pens and the other stuff, you've got this relic.” That's the part we're going to remember.
The idea is if you take some of this extraneous stuff out and the story keeps moving forward, like you've not missed it. If it's like you had to know about this part, you of course, don't take that stuff out.
It's when you take the stuff out and nothing is missed and the story is still whole, that's when you know you're just giving a lot of information.
I've read books where the information was fun, I enjoyed reading it, but in the real big picture, it didn't have anything to do with it. It was just taking up a lot of real estate for no productive reason.
Joanna: You also mentioned before, that feeling of ‘just get it out there.' I totally understand that. I mean, sometimes we're just sick of our own books.
Interestingly, as self-published authors, obviously we can just upload, publish, and it can be selling the same day. So there is a sort of positive sense of getting it out there more quickly.
What tips can you give us around patience or coming back to something with fresh eyes after waiting?
How can we do that? Is it just a matter of leaving it aside for a time?
Renee: Yes, and actually, I wrote an article on that on my Substack of how patience pays off. In the sense that with you guys, and especially you, Joanna, that have had a lot of books out there, you know what to do here, and you know when your stuff is finished.
These first-time authors a lot of the times are like, I just have to hurry up and get this published. They don't realize that you're just detracting from the possibility because you don't get a second bite at the apple.
Usually, when you're tired of that project, or it's not quite right, or you haven't sent it to an editor, or as I said, other person that can give you actual feedback, put it in the drawer for a little while.
I mean, this is why painters turn around their paintings so they don't look at it for a couple of days, and when they turn it back around, they can see where the improvement needs to be made.
So there is no deadline to rush it out the door as a traditional publishing person because no one will pick it up because it's not ready. You knew that when you did it, but you were just hoping that someone would love it enough to fix it. That rarely, rarely happens.
Joanna: You also mentioned pacing a couple of times.
What are some tips around pacing?
Renee: Well, that's hand in hand with the overwriting and bringing scenes that last way too long. You're getting mired down in all these details that really aren't moving the story forward or enhancing your story in any way. So that will drag down the pacing.
So if I'm slogging through three or four pages of what's on a person's desk, only to have someone walk in say, “Hey, would you like that glass of water now?” and they leave the room, what was that for?
I'm not saying that everything has to happen in a split second. I can appreciate the slow burn, but there's that fine line between just having the words there just to have them, rather than having them be productive and add to the story.
If you're spending a lot of time writing about things, introducing a character, “Oh, he was bullied as a child. Now he's got these dark thoughts,” and on and on. Then all of a sudden, he's gone. You never see him again. He just got off the school bus, and you decided to tell me all about this person who got off the school bus, but he doesn't show up again.
If you take that out, it doesn't affect the story. You leaving it in, I'm reading this, and that's kind of slogging the pacing a little bit.
Joanna: I feel like the biggest shift of this, certainly for me as a writer who's been doing this a while now, is changing my head from my author head to a reader head. Obviously, as an editor, you're acting as a reader as well.
So how can we do that? I mean, I guess we've talked about getting some distance. For example, I'll tell you how I do my own self edits. I will print out my draft two pages to a page, so it looks more like a book. So you can fold it up, and it would be like a book.
Then I hand edit with a pen on paper, and I scribble all over it. The font I use is different, so it's not on the screen. So this kind of helps me disconnect.
Some of my hand edits
Have you got any tips for other people to change your head around?
Renee: I think that's a great tip. It's a matter of stepping away, getting some fresh eyes, and then doing something like that, or reading it out loud. If you're reading it out loud, especially with your dialogue, that's a great way to fix dialogue that's going on too long, or is too on the nose, or whatever.
If you read it out loud, then you can see that you're going on and on and on about something. Then you're like, well, I can say this so much more succinctly and have way more impact and not lose anything in the story as a whole.
Joanna: Yes, it is difficult. Again, it's very interesting, I think it takes a number of books before an author can be more confident in their voice.
How have you seen authors develop their voice over the years? Is it a matter of developing creative confidence over time?
Renee: Yes, I absolutely do. I have a client that I've worked with a number of times. He's a veteran, and his writing feels like it's more cathartic for him. It's a lot of very angry stuff. It's not necessarily well thought out, etc.
Then a couple months later, I'll hear from again. A year later, I'll hear from him again. He's like, I wrote this new romance thing because he's got it all out of his mind. This stuff was way different, and that's what I would tell him.
He's like, do you think we should submit the other stuff? I said, you know what, step away for a little while and go back to it. Then you'll see that you got out what you wanted to say, but maybe now you know how you want to say it a little bit more gently, a little bit more productively, if you would.
He's done that, and he's come back and said, you're right. He realized it was not ready to be to be sent.
Joanna: That takes some maturity.
Renee: You'll get that with your practicing of writing. The more you write, the more mature you get. I mean, I can see how my writing has changed. I was reading stuff from 1985, and I was laughing. I'm like, oh, my god, what was I thinking?
It's funny, you said earlier, you don't get a second bite of the apple or whatever, but as independent authors we do. We can do that. I think you meant if you're pitching an agent. Although, people get their rights back, don't they, and often rewrite things.
Renee: Well, that's a road that can't go back to the traditional. That's the same thing as an indie writer, you cannot pitch most—I'm not saying every—most agents, including myself, cannot take anything that's been previously published in any way.
Whether it was just online or whether it was out there online but didn't sell anything, I can't have anything. In traditional publishing contracts, it's going to state that this has never been out there.
Now, if it's been a long time and you have rewritten 80% of the book, it's different then. It's the same with the second bite at the apple for when you're sending to an agent.
Do you know how many times it's very frustrating for an agent to get, “Here's my manuscript, I hope you'll love it.” Then literally a week later, “Oh, I redid a whole bunch of sections. Here's the new one, try this one instead.” Someone has done that to me like four times, and I'm like, no, I can't.
Then there was times where I've gotten one that said, “I sent this to you last year. You gave me some great notes on it. I wanted you to know I completely rewrote it. Will you look at it again?” That is usually very okay to do it that way.
Joanna: Right, we're going to come back to the agent stuff. Let's just talk about developmental editing because you do that. I feel like the word editor is so difficult because it can mean so many things.
What does a developmental editor do that is different to a line editor, a copy editor, a red-marks-all-over-the-page editor?
Renee: Well, a developmental editor could still give you red marks, but they look at the whole big picture. I can't help myself from line editing because I'll see it and I'm like, no, that's not right. So I'll do a little of that as well.
Otherwise, they look to see that the story starts in the right place, the scenes are all necessary and productive, like we talked about before, meaning they serve a purpose to the story and move the story forward, back to pacing.
They often see where the story can be improved by moving some things around, adding or deleting things. If something is said a certain way, you can say, hey, what if you said it this way? Or what if you told that in dialogue? Or what if you showed it this way?
So that's what they do, it's just like moving things around. Where line editors and copy editors are down to the nitty gritty of grammar, continuity, cohesiveness of style, consistency, making sure the words used relay the intention that the writer was trying to.
I took a copy editing class through the University of Chicago, and that was very not for me. You have to keep a style sheet. There's a lot of technical things that go along with it. It's a completely different animal.
Joanna: Yes, I think you have to go with what your strengths are and seeing that story as a whole.
It's interesting, you said ‘checking whether the story starts in the right place.'
I feel like some people won't understand what you mean by that. So could you expand on that?
Renee: Sure. I just read one recently where I got all this information, all this preamble, and nothing was really happening. There was no inciting incident, nothing was really happening in like the first 10 pages.
Then by the time I got to chapter three, some major event happened, and now it was off to the races. I said, you might want to bring that in the beginning and less preamble of where nothing was going on.
As an agent, I can read within the first five pages to see voice and style and everything like that. So you've got to get to certain benchmarks, or you've got to stop turning the pages because it's taking too long to get there. Like I said, fine line between slow burn and bad pacing.
Joanna: Yes, and even if it's a slow burn, you've got to hook the reader. So I read fiction on a Kindle, and I'm pretty much a three click on a Kindle Paperwhite. So I mean, that's not many pages.
If I download a sample, I'll know pretty quickly whether I want to read something. Then if I get to the end of the sample, I will usually buy the book because I am hooked in.
That inciting incident, something happening, is a genre specific thing. The reader has to know, this is the book I want to read now.
Renee: Well, yes. You're showing that this character is going to go on a journey to get a want and a need, and we've got to know what sets them on that journey.
You're going to want to know that within a certain period of time, or we're just reading about these people's lives, and it's not really going anywhere.
If you're, as a reader, sitting there and you're a couple chapters in going, what's happening, where's this going? It's harder to say that if you're reading like a finished book, as opposed to submissions that come in. I'm talking about traditional again.
So there's certain kinds of rules that are adhered to, in a sense. I mean, not hard and fast. You know if the rules are meant to be broken. Yes, it's tough. Okay, so once the manuscript is in shape, many authors want to pitch an agent.
Joanna: What are the key elements of a pitch package that authors need to put together in order to make it through the first mass delete of an agent's email pile?
Renee: A strong query letter is key. I'm actually going to be teaching a masterclass at StoryFest in South Carolina on this because it's the first thing that gets you noticed. It's one of the basic things, but it takes a lot of practice and patience to get it just right.
So you want to have your strong query letter. Keep it to a single page, 250 to 350 words is best. If it takes more, that's fine. Succinctness and showing that you can tell your story and give all this information shows that you've tightened your writing up.
If I'm reading a three-page query letter, I'm going to guess that their manuscript is overwritten as well. So it's very important to have that.
That brings me to synopsis. You should have a one- to two-page synopsis on hand in case an agent asks for it. I always ask for them. It's because you're going to invest a lot of time reading these books.
While the voice and the writing seem great, four or five hours into this book, you don't want to suddenly see that it goes off the rails, and suddenly there's a donkey flying through the air throwing glitter everywhere. Then you're like, wait, what just happened? You don't get the time back.
So when I'm reading, and I see the voice and the structure, and everything is all lining up, I like to look at the synopsis to see the story arc itself, to see how it's going to play out. Sometimes I can see errors there and say, listen, that doesn't really track.
I may read forward before I make my assessment, they just maybe didn't write the synopsis as strong as they should. I'll still read forward to see if it actually played out in the manuscript.
If you're a nonfiction author, strong query letter and a strong proposal is very key. Like I said, templates are under my resources if you want to take a look at that.
Joanna: Just so people know, what website should they be looking for there?
Renee: It's ReneeFountain.com.
Joanna: Great, we'll come back to that at the end. Just on the query letter, let's just cover a bit more detail now. So obviously, we need to talk about the story or the nonfiction project, whatever it is.
Should we also include elements of our sales, our platform?
Like I'm an established indie author, or there might be newer indie authors than me, but should we be including that information as well, to kind of talk more about the author? We're always told we should talk about author platform, basically.
Renee: Yes, you should.
Indie or traditional, it's understood that you are going to be the marketer of your book. You're going to do most of the heavy lifting.
Traditional publishing will do like very basic stuff, but it's up to the author.
When traditional publishers are looking at a book, if you have a strong platform, if you have a lot of high sales, that will get you absolutely looked at. So definitely showing that you have a strong platform and high sales is great.
You can say, “I'm a successful indie author making my traditional publishing debut,” and go on after that in your letter.
At the end, you can talk about your sales, but your sales have to be fairly high. You know, 3000 is great, I would be very impressed with that, but publishers want to see it as high as possible.
At the converse of that, if you don't have any sales or you don't have a high platform, take the time to start building your platform more. Your followers, your social media, all that for your reach.
Just because you don't have any sales, don't let that stop you. Everybody starts somewhere. So if it's not impressive, don't talk about it. If it is impressive, absolutely. Put it in red, put it in big giant letters.
Joanna: Yes, but start with the story. So I guess, “I'm writing to pitch this project. Here's a bit about the story. Then here's my platform. If you're interested, let me know.”
Should we pitch multiple agents at the same time?
Renee: Yes, but not in a way that you're just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Research the agents.
Joanna: What are some tips for finding a good match for a book and an author?
Because there's a lot of agents out there.
Renee: It's simply the research. Whether you've read a book that you really like, and you're like, this is just like mine, or this is the type of book that this agent handles. Look in the acknowledgments, find out who the agent is for that book.
Look on Publishers Marketplace, Manuscript Wish List. I think Writer's Digest provides some guidance. I thought I saw something from Reedsy not too long ago where they put up the agents.
I wasn't among them, by the way. I stay off the grid. I don't use QueryTracker or other similar sites, because they're probably a good place, but that's not the way I work.
Attend writing events like PNWA, or Killer Nashville, or whatever fits in your genre, to see their list of agents. They post them up there, who's attending, what they're looking for. Then you can go back for the last two or three years, and I think you can garner a lot of information that way.
Joanna: Yes, I mean, it's better to pitch five agents you've heavily researched than just scatter-gunning twenty-five.
Renee: It's not good to just throw it out there. Also, too, remember you want to work with this person. Maybe there are agents that you've identified from past things that you've been doing, or books that you've seen, or other authors, so pitch them first.
Maybe you have your top five, or whatever it is. Then pitch ones that are relevant to what you're doing. Don't pitch a military agent your romance book.
Joanna: Yes, very important.
Are agents and publishers open to indie authors pitching?
I mean, you mentioned there, if you have a good platform, mention it, if you don't, don't mention it. But are they open to it? I mean, obviously even if you don't mention it, you're going to have to mention it when you have a conversation.
Renee: It's not something to hide at all. I'm just saying what will kind of work for you and what will work against you. Saying, “I'm an indie author. I didn't do very well, and I have no sales.” You don't want to lead with that.
Joanna: Not a good start.
Renee: Absolutely, agents are open to it. Just like I said, you can't pitch a book that you've already published. Unless you said, “Listen, I published this. I sold 50,000 copies.” Then they'll be very interested.
You hear about those Wattpad sensations were they had a million Wattpad followers, and then I think it was Simon and Schuster who swooped in and grabbed her. So it all depends, but yeah, you should absolutely go out there, just not with a previously published book.
Joanna: Yes, I think that's really important. The other thing is, you mentioned before quite briefly, that you are the marketer. I feel like a lot of authors turn away from being an indie author these days because they don't want to do the marketing.
What sort of marketing can a new author expect with a traditional publisher?
You said they do a little bit. What is that little bit?
Renee: They have a group of reviewers that they'll send it to. They might include it in some kind of round up. They're not going to send you on a book tour, you're not going to go on signings.
You don't know how many times I get these submissions that say, “I just want to go with a traditional publisher because I want them to do all the marketing for me.” Well, that doesn't work.
Again, your platform, that's why it's important to raise your numbers. They want you to have a ready-made audience who's already interested in what you have to say and what you're writing and a fan of your work.
They want you to go on podcasts, and be a guest on a podcast, or a blogger, or something where you're talking about your book. Some people have access to television shows, and they go on there and talk about their books.
I had a sports agent who would be invited to talk about sports, and then he'd say, “And then here's my new book.” So you still have to do the main heavy lifting.
Sometimes traditional publishers will say, depending on what your book is, maybe they'll have a set of magazines that would work well for a piece that you could write an article on, or something to that effect.
Again, it's only when you're frontlist. It's only leading up to your launch. Then they're onto the new frontlist book to give them the attention. So you've really got to try to get the irons in the fire yourself as well. It's an unfortunate part. I didn't say it was easy.
Joanna: No, it's not easy either way. It's funny, because I feel like traditionally published authors think going indie is the easy way, and indies often think, oh, I'll just go traditional because then I won't have to do marketing. So there are pros and cons either way. Given what you said—
What are the benefits of going traditional?
Renee: I was going to ask the indie people that question!
Joanna: But from your perspective.
Renee: I think for a lot of people it's kind of a goal for them. It's kind of fun. I mean, not for nothing, having bragging rights of saying St. Martin's took my book, that's great. That's quite a feather in your cap. I think you should do that if that's what you want to do.
I always tell my clients, the publishing landscape is tough. It really is. I will try so long, sometimes it takes me two years to sell their book, depending on what it is. I will do everything I could, send it out, get some feedback.
Then when I say, listen, I think I've exhausted all my possibilities, at least they have the option of self-publishing, a smaller press, going to a hybrid, whatever they want to do to get their book out there. I believed in that book enough, and I'd love to see it out there too.
So you got your bragging rights, the nice feather in your cap, something that I think is wonderful.
You're also looking at the other side. You're giving up a big piece of your pie. You're still doing a lot of the marketing. You may have better distribution the other way.
I don't know about in the UK, but we don't have many brick and mortar stores and more. They've all been reduced to online. I think there's a couple of Barnes and Nobles left, but this still happens. There's still airports and all that you could try to get your book into. I think there's definitely pros and cons to both sides.
Joanna: Yes, indeed. One of the other things I was considering around this is film and TV rights because your agency looks at that. I mean, there are agents who have relationships with film and TV agents or studios. Is that a better way to go, as well?
For example, I pitched to a person in TV a while back, and they said, “Well, why isn't your literary agent doing that for you?” I was like, “Oh, well, I'm doing it myself because I'm not with an agent.” So do you think that it's a benefit to have an agent do that?
Is there a better chance of getting a film or TV deal that way?
Renee: I think some of them require it. Just like the Big Five requires you to have an agent, it's because they don't want to deal directly with the author.
So that's why they want to have the intermediate of an agent to make sure you have representation, make sure that you have someone saying, “They said this, but really, this is what's gonna happen.” So that's the pro to having an agent, to do that kind of stuff.
For the most part, film and television, I don't know if like Amazon Studios doesn't require an agent or some of those that have popped up in the last few years.
Film and TV, for the most part, are going off of a great story. A lot of times it could be high sales figures that catch their eye, but it also has to do with what's working at the time.
Hallmark, Lifetime, they're always looking for new stories that fit their profile and demographics. They want an agent to send them their stuff.
When I was optioning books for film and TV at Harcourt, I was obviously only working with my own books, but I would have celebrity managers calling me up going, “Do you have a female-driven vehicle?” She was representing Cher, and it's like, well, I'll see what I have.
When I was a scout for CW Television Network, I looked for the story and what was interesting, whether it was indie or not. It could have been a magazine article, but whatever worked for adaptation.
So I was doing double duty back then, running a book review site. So I was reading all sorts of different things. So in that aspect, just because you're an indie author, doesn't mean you can't pursue that avenue.
There are some agents that just do—like I don't represent the script, so I don't go the other way—but there might be some other agents that take your indie book and sell for film rights. We tend to work with just the books that we represent when we do that.
Joanna: Then just coming back to something you said earlier. If you take on a manuscript, for example, it might take a few years, or it might not even happen.
What stops a publisher from publishing a book or taking on a book?
Is it just their list, they don't want that kind of book right now? Or a timing problem? Like if it's gone past your level of quality, there's this next level at a publishing house.
Renee: It could be a lot of things. A rejection by them would be, “This doesn't quite fit in my list,” or “I have something similar,” or what I always hear the same is, “Paranormal doesn't sell.” I'm like, it doesn't sell because you guys won't take any.
Joanna: It's selling pretty well for indie authors!
Renee: Exactly. It's like, well, maybe take one and see how it sells. I understand there's tropey stuff, and I found a werewolf one which I usually don't take. I say please don't send me witches, warlocks, werewolves, vampires, zombies.
I read one from one of our indie authors, actually, she came in as an indie. I thought she put a nice twist on an old trope. It came close at Macmillan, but didn't quite pass the finish line. You know, it happens.
Joanna: What should an author do with these rejections?
I mean, I find being an indie author very empowering because you don't have to ask permission.Any success and any failure is entirely my fault, basically. No one's in control except me, so I can just keep trying to make things happen.
Obviously, the same as anyone else, some books sell better than others. That's kind of the way it is. So I feel like I've never experienced the kind of rejection that people get submitting to agents or to traditional publishing. So how can authors deal with that?
Renee: It's tough.
It's tough not to take it personally, but I have to tell you, do not take it personally. I've seen them pass on brilliant writing and brilliant books.
It's either because they were so overwhelmed with the work on their plate already that they have their stable of agents that they want to look at, or they just weren't in the mood. I don't know, but it is not personal.
Like I said, if it comes to me, and I'm like, this kept me interested and really thought this was great, and then I send it out, I'm dealing with the rejection along with everybody else. It's like, this is really good, did you read it?
That's what happens when we're in a subjective industry. My fantastic is someone else's meh.
Joanna: Yes, exactly. It really is, isn't? As a reader, you know, someone can say, “Oh, this is an amazing book.” I'm like, oh, no, not for me.
Renee: “I couldn't put it down.” Then you're like, “I can't pick it up.”
Joanna: Exactly, and sometimes I'll try books because they're just so popular. Then I'll be like, I don't understand why this is so big.
Renee: Sometimes we have conversations, my partner and I, and she's like how did this get out there, but this won't go? Well, it's like, listen, we don't know what kind of blackmail is happening out there.
Joanna: What the hell is going on?!
Renee: What dirt people have on the other?! I don't know. But again, it's subjective.
Joanna: Yes, and it's always changing. I feel like the other piece of advice is to just write another book, because as creative people, that's what we do. I feel like the more ideas I have, the more ideas I have. The time problem is getting everything written.
I have two particular projects I am thinking of pitching, but I love to move on so fast.
I was thinking, like let's say this project I'm working on right now, let's call it the vineyard book, if I finished that, and then I pitch an agent, it might take, I don't know, six months—maybe never, obviously—but let's say it takes six months to get an agent.
Then it takes six months to a year, you said two years, to get a publishing deal. Then it takes a publisher a year or two years to get the book in the world. Is that about right?
Renee: Well, some of it. Depending on how quick you get an agent, that's the first step. Then for it to go to publishing, you can hear back sometimes within two weeks of “no, thank you,” or it could take a year.
So it's somewhere in between two weeks and a year that you'll hear back, depending on who you've sent it to and how much stuff is on their plate.
Then, if you do get, “Yeah, we'd like to greenlight this,” and when I said it took me two years to sell something, it was because, again, it's timing. We talked about it, it may not be right now, but maybe it'll rewrite later.
So it just took me two years that we sold it, finally. Then she wrote her second book with them. So it's just finding the haystack, then finding the haystack with the needle in it, you know? Then if you get a book deal, right now they are backed up to where it's taking about two years to pub, unless they fast track you. Although I haven't seen that lately.
Joanna: You can get some money on signing, but then you get paid on publication.
Renee: Correct. It's half on signing, and usually the other half on publication.
Joanna: Yes, so just keep that in mind, people, in terms of cash flow management.
Renee: Okay, not on publication. Let's just say on accepted final manuscript.
Joanna: But they're in control of that, they can just send it back with some more issues. That's not up to the author.
Renee: We don't usually try to drag it out.
Joanna: It's so interesting. Like, why are we in this industry, Renee? It's so hard!
Renee: Because we love it!
Joanna: We love books!
Renee: Back to one of your other points, too, is your first book may not be your first book published. It's like, “I love your voice, I love your writing. The story, not so much. Send me your next project.” That's what I'll tell them. Then the next one might be a really great story, and then you send that one out.
So they get their foot in the door, you get published on the second book you wrote, or third or fifth or tenth. Then you get that first one out there, and then the publisher—if it sells through, you have to sell through because you won't get your second book in there if it doesn't.
Now they've sold through, and they ask what else are they working on. Then you go, “Here, I have these other options for you.” At that point, they'll be more apt to edit you or help shape up what it is that you sent.
Joanna: You mentioned ‘sell-through' there. Can you just explain that?
Renee: Sure. Let's say when you sell it, let's say you were given a $5,000 advance. There's a price for your book, and you get a percentage of that wholesale price. So it's not retail, unless it's negotiated that way, but let's just go with wholesale numbers.
So you get the couple of points on the wholesale price, and that goes against your advance. So you have to sell X amount of books at your 8%, usually, depending on what you negotiate, and that goes towards that $5000. Then when you sell enough and that $5000 is paid off, then you start seeing royalties.
Joanna: Yes, I think that's really important too. The word advance means advance against royalties, and yet people lose track of what that actually means.
In that case, it's really interesting because here in the UK, I have one author in mind in particular who got a massive, massive deal, like really, really huge, and then we never heard from her again.
Whereas I know other authors who started on much lower advances, but sold through like multiple, multiple times. Then the next time, they got a better deal. It's hard to know which way is a better way to go.
Renee: Yes, it is. As an indie author, you're not used to getting an advance anyways. So if it was a matter of between getting a lower advance and knowing that you could sell through and getting your royalties, there really is no difference, right? So it's six of one, half dozen of another.
If you don't know that you're strong in the marketing aspect. I've had authors come to me from like St. Martin's and whatever, and they didn't take his next book because they didn't sell through. Then he came to me without me realizing that, and then I found out real quick why. I sold the book, and they did nothing.
Joanna: I guess the other thing is —
Don't be an idiot and treat people nicely, because it's not that big an industry really, is it?
Renee: You put your book out there, you always have to be selling, you always have to be working at it. Building your platform, getting the word out. I'm not that kind of person, which is why I'm off the grid. I'm by referrals, usually only, or when I go to events and meet people. That's how I build my list.
It's always trying to get your book out there. Obviously, if you sell through, like I said, you've got it made.
Also, what helps selling through that advance is if your book is right for other countries. They'll sell foreign rights, and all those other things get an advance as well. That goes to pay back the advance that they gave you so you can earn out faster.
Joanna: Fantastic. Well, we're out of time. I do want to just ask—
If people want to pitch you, tell them what you are looking for?
In terms of clients for editing, or whether or not they can contact you.
Renee: Well, I'm usually into like really great writing, really good voices, and really great stories. I mean, it's more easy to tell you what I don't take. I'm not a big fan of the post-apocalyptic depressing books, or erotica, poetry, westerns, the vampire, zombie, etc. as previously said.
I find it very difficult right now for fantasy, like with elves and magic and that other world, for me. There's a lot of other agents out there that do very well with that. I just find that that's not really my thing.
I do enjoy great chick lit, although the editors don't seem to. I love humor, if it makes me laugh, especially. Thrillers, mysteries, all that. Also, I don't do children's books, even though my career was in that. I don't take picture books or middle grade. I do handle YA. Again, it's got to be based on story. You know, that's the clincher.
Joanna: Nonfiction? Memoir?
Renee: Oh, absolutely. I do a lot of nonfiction. If you guys go to my agency site, GHliterary.com, you'll see the book covers that we've done. I've done a lot of nonfiction.
If you go to ReneeFountain.com, under the tab of my work you'll see a lot of the books that I helped get out there, and worked on proposals with the authors, and edited the books, etc. I think that's a great place to start there because it kind of hones down to specifically me more on that site.
Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Renee. That was great.
Renee: I appreciate your time. It was great to be here.
Turn Words Into Wealth With Aurora Winter
Jul 01, 2024
Can you have a business with a soul through writing? How does the business of fiction differ from non-fiction? What are some tips for pitching a book for film & TV? All this and more with Aurora Winter.
Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.
Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
How writing can help people during difficult times
Actionable ways to turn grief into gratitude
Tips for pitching to producers
The importance of patience and connections in the film industry
How self-development can lead to increased opportunities
How and when to delegate tasks to a virtual assistant
Joanna: Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur. So welcome to the show, Aurora.
Aurora: It's so great to be on the show with you, Joanna.
Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
Aurora: Well, my life changed when I was just nine years old, and I first read the Narnia series by CS Lewis. As I reached for the last book in that series, I just felt such a thrill of anticipation, but also anticipatory grief.
I realized the moment that my little nine-year-old hand touched that book, that writers are kinds of wizards. That with just ink on white paper, we can transport the reader to another place in time, even somewhere that doesn't even exist.
In that moment, my little nine-year-old heart decided I would do whatever it took to become a great writer, like CS Lewis, and I'm still working on that.
Then CS Lewis changed my life a second time after my husband died suddenly. He was only 33, and our son was four. I read CS Lewis's book, A Grief Observed, which was later made into a movie, and that book so touched me because he was willing to share those mad midnight moments. It allowed me to feel like it's okay, I can get through this. So two times, once when I was 31, and once when I was nine, CS Lewis changed my life, and he was already dead.
What better way to leave a lasting legacy and help other people than to write books? What better way to uplift, inform, and inspire others?
Joanna: How did you get from the nine year old who really wanted to write—we're going to come back to the grief—but you have had loads of businesses. As I said, you're like a serial entrepreneur. You've done loads. So was it a case like many of us, that it was just not a proper job to go into writing? How did you end up back in writing?
Aurora: When I went to university, my father who's an economist, scoffed at me when I said that I wanted to major in English. He's like, there's no money in that, do something sensible. So I studied economics, I have an MBA now.
Yet, I always had this passion for writing. So I took a minor in languages and literature, and I never stopped writing. I was writing journals, or as a nine-year-old, I wrote little illustrated stories that never got beyond chapter three.
Then eventually, one thing leads to another. I actually got sick, to be honest. I was running a profitable business with my husband. We had launched a yacht sales company, it was a seven-figure business. We sold $3 million of boats in one week when I was pregnant.
I'm like, okay, this is a very lucrative business, and yet my soul was sick. I was missing writing. So after my baby was born, I got up at 4 a.m. to write, and then I looked after the baby, and then I did the accounting for the company, and I got sick. I got chronic fatigue syndrome, or Epstein Barr.
I realized I couldn't put my soul aside forever, that there would be a price to pay. So I went back into writing screenplays.
Then, this is a little mini miracle, can you believe it, a feature film came to shoot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, where I lived at the time. The production manager for John Badham, who directed the movie Stakeout and Bird on a Wire called and said, “Hey, we need to use a boat. Can we rent one of your boats?”
I heard my husband answering the phone, “We don't rent boats. We've got brand new $200,000 boats for sale.” I'm like, “Wait a minute, hold on! Hang on a second. I'm a screenwriter. Yes, we do rent boats if it's John Badham calling.”
So my husband skippered the boat and I crewed. I met Mel Gibson and Goldie Hawn, and the first assistant director on that shoot Peter Marshall and I became friends. Later he hired me to write the first screenplay that I wrote for real money.
So what are the chances that the universe would actually bring that right to me? Then through various other miracles, my life changed and I ended up in film and television.
Joanna: Wow. Okay, we're going to come back to that. I know it's a difficult topic, but you've written about the death of your husband, and many people listening, I mean, everyone at some point is going to go through grief. Of course, for you, the very early tragic death of your husband.
You've also helped others with grief, which again, you turned your own trouble into helping others.
How can writing help people with difficult times?
If people are going through this right now or it's something that they're suffering, even if they don't want to publish their words, I think that's really important. How can writing help that situation?
Aurora: Well, you wrote about it so beautifully in Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, which I highly recommend. I love this book, I have it right by my night table. It's a beautiful addition that you did on Kickstarter.
What you just said about even if it's not being published, I think that's the first thing to lean into. Write for yourself at first. Don't think about publishing at first, especially if you're writing about grief. Writers pay attention. The act of writing is paying attention.
You would be surprised how you can alchemize pain into wisdom, grief into gratitude, if you take the time to first vent and just get all that stuff out on the page.
Then later, for example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, which was endorsed by Dr. Wayne Dyer, my hero, was simply my diary of healing through grief.
When I reread my diary, I was floored to notice how many times my prayers had been answered, but I hadn't been grateful at the time because the prayers were answered three months later, six months later. I hadn't noticed, hey, I prayed for that.
There is value in writing and in reviewing what you have written. That will bring you greater wisdom.
So my 90-day challenge for the listeners is write every day, even for five minutes in your journal. Read every day, you can start with reading the book Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn, it's amazing. Then review what you have written once a week.
If you do that for 90 days, I promise you, your life will transform. You will start to notice the things that you are complaining about. If you're still complaining about something 90 days later, you should do something about it, or you should just stop complaining.
You write in your book, Writing the Shadow, about how grateful you were that you were in so much pain working in IT that you finally shifted.
There's value in pain, and if we're complaining or suffering, either we need to accept, forgive, or release.
The past will never change, but we do have the present moment we can change. So there's a great value in writing about grief or any kind of suffering that you're going through.
Joanna: Yes, I mean, you said it before about “my soul was sick.” Sometimes we do have to be in those very difficult places. I'm not saying, obviously, that people should die, but people do die. That is the reality of life. Turning that, as you said, into gratitude is amazing.
I do just want to say there for reviewing what we've written, I do read back some of my journals from like 20 years ago, and some things never change, but we hope that other things move on.
Aurora: Yes. Well, I've studied happiness extensively, as you mentioned. I later launched a company called The Grief Coach Academy, which is being run by an amazing woman now, Audrey White. So it continues on, although I've gone on to focus on other things.
I created a systemized process for releasing and transforming grief into gratitude.
Anyway, one of the key things that everybody can do, you can do this starting now, and I did it last night, I do it every night, is just list three things that you're grateful for.
You can write it down, or what I do is just as I'm falling asleep, I think about the day, and I acknowledge three things that happened during the day that I can be grateful for.
You can deepen this practice by acknowledging how your character trait or your choices helped lead to that happy thing. For example, last night, I was grateful that I've just bought a car for my son. He got a nice 2019 BMW i3, and he's like all happy and skippy about it.
So I was grateful for the prosperity to be able to help him buy a car. I was grateful that he was so happy. Also, I noticed that it shifted his identity, which is the highest leverage thing you can do for another person, as Tony Robbins would say. So that is one of the simple things everybody can do. It's a happiness hack. It takes like three minutes, and I recommend you do it daily.
Joanna: Actually, on that, I can go even faster. I use Notes on my iPhone, and I just dictate. I have found that dictating just means it's almost less repetitive.
Some days you're grateful for the same things, and you think, is it worth being grateful for this again? But yes it is, and those are the things we don't want to change. So yes, I found dictation actually makes a real difference.
You mentioned the importance of writing a book, not a screenplay, if you want to pitch for film and TV, which is something I also learned recently.
So can you talk a bit about this, why writing a book is better, because you have written screenplays as well. Give us any other tips for pitching IP to producers that don't involve licensing boats!
Aurora: Yes, that's probably not too repeatable, so here's how I can help the listeners. I have a background in film and television, I worked for Canada's largest film and television production company. I worked as a vice president of another production company in the States in Los Angeles.
Then I launched my own film and television production company. We raised $5 million to that and made eight films. So I have about, I don't know, 300 hours of production that I was connected with in some ways.
My development budget when I was working in Toronto was one and a half million dollars just to develop projects, and I have never optioned the screenplay from a first-time screenwriter. It did not happen. It doesn't happen. But so many times I would option books.
So there is a very common thing in film and television to option a book. So most of the listeners are authors, take advantage of that.
The second thing is I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, you cannot copyright an idea, you can only copyright a specific expression of an idea.
A book asserts your copyright.
I actually had the personal experience of pitching a TV series to a very large US broadcaster that you would know the name of, but I won't say it. My business partner at the time signed the release that they make you sign when you pitch something, which basically says we might be pitched something similar.
Anyway, they basically stole the idea for the TV series, and they made it, but I didn't see a dime. So there's a risk when you're just pitching a treatment or a screenplay that having a book helps mitigate.
Also with the book, you've got something. An unsold screenplay just gathers dust.
With a book that can be optioned as a screenplay, you can get awards, sales, proof of concept. You can make some momentum.
Joanna: There's a great book called Hollywood Vs. the Author, which I always recommend. It tells people how to protect themselves.
I feel like sometimes we focus so much on protecting our work, we don't actually get it in front of people. I think that's kind of the opposite issue. So any tips on pitching, to get our books in front of people?
Aurora: Well, absolutely. I'm actually going to the Banff Media Festival in the beginning of June with two of my clients because I help people out with their books and help them pitch. So what you want to do is —
You want to get your pitch down to be really clear.
So for example, my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that pitch is it's basically “Harry Potter meets Doctor Who.” So you want it to be that tight, and then you can go on from there. Then if somebody's interested, you can tell them a little bit more.
So about Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, in addition to saying it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who, I can say it won the American Fiction Award for best preteen book, and it won the Reader’s Choice Award and several other awards. So, already that's enough for somebody to go, “You know what, I only do thrillers. I'm not interested in YA fantasy,” or they can say, “Tell me more.”
So for example, I'm meeting with BBC again in a couple of weeks. They expressed interest in a 12-part half hour series. We'll see if that goes anywhere. Interest is not a deal, interest is not a greenlight.
Now that I have interest from BBC, I can meet with Paramount or Warner Brothers or Universal or Netflix and say, hey, they're interested, are you interested? Then we can perhaps get it get a deal.
Joanna: Yes, and it takes so long, doesn't it? This is the other thing I feel people don't realize is that it's also about relationships. It's interesting that you got into it because you met that person on the boat all those years ago. Then you got into it, and then things develop.
So I think that's the other thing, if you really want your book and you want to see something on the screen—
Patience and connections make all the difference.
Aurora: There was an interesting story about the Banff Film Festival. So after my husband died, just shortly thereafter, maybe six months after, a friend of mine was trying to drag me to a party for people in film in Vancouver. I'm like, I don't want to go, I don't feel like it.
He's like, “You are moping, and I don't blame you for grieving, but you're getting out of the house now. Get dressed.” So anyway, I went to the party and ended up sitting beside somebody I didn't know.
He said, “Oh, what do you do?” So I told him I was a screenwriter. He said, “Oh, well, what are you writing?” Then I told him what I was writing because I got all excited about it. He's like, “I think you should represent the province of British Columbia and pitch that at the Banff Film and Television Festival.”
I'm like, what? Who are you? Turned out I happened to be sitting by the head of film for British Columbia BC Film Commission. Anyway, so then I had a moment of do I say no or do I say yes. This is a tip everybody can do.
When you are invited to do something outside of your comfort zone, take a deep breath and say yes.
I said yes. Then I got a phone call the next day from a producer. She's like, “Well, would you mind if I followed you around and did a documentary film of you and a couple of the people who are pitching?”
I'm like, okay, yes. So then my shoulder went into spasm just before the pitch. So I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to pitch as a first-time screenwriter who has nothing produced, who has no momentum—who can sell boats, though—to 600 film and television executives. If they miss it because they're not in the room, they can watch it later on national television.
Joanna: Wow.
Aurora: But anyway, that pitch for that screenplay created a bidding war, and my agent fielded offers from Spelling and Universal and other places. That basically ended up changing my life. So the right words, at the right time, to the right people can change your life.
That launched, initially, a six-figure deal, and then went on to create, basically, multiple-million dollar business creating film and television. So it was all because I was willing to say yes and step into something I was not comfortable about. Later, they used the documentary to teach the art of pitching in the Banff Film school, so that was kind of cool.
Joanna: That is cool. I also want to note that you are clearly someone who reads a lot of self-help books and is very into self-development. I think this is a very important thing, too. I feel like you've obviously invested in yourself. I used to listen to Tony Robbins audios back in the day as well.
By changing your mindset, you changed your actions, and that led to these opportunities.
I feel that so often people almost expect these things to happen. Even though you're saying that it happened quite quickly, I feel like you put in a lot of work on yourself in order to be in that position.
Aurora: Thank you for acknowledging that. Yes, a lot of work on myself. It's a never-ending process. I remember that at one point you said something like you wanted to be like the female version of Tony Robbins, and I think you're doing a brilliant job.
Joanna: The quiet one!
Aurora: Yes, an introverted one. It never ends, you know, working on yourself is the most valuable thing you can do.
Joanna: Yes, and I noticed that we both have Learner and Strategic in our top five Clifton Strengths.
Aurora: Yes, we have a lot in common there.
Joanna: Which I thought was interesting, because I mean, we do love learning. I think this makes all the difference. Just going back to your business, so you have a book called Turn Words Into Wealth: Blueprint for Your Business, Brand, and Book. It has a lot of ideas about how to make more money with books. I'm interested because you've done so many different types of writing—
What do you see as the difference between the business models of fiction and nonfiction? How do these play out in your business now?
Aurora: I think fiction has so many opportunities for movies and merchandising. As I mentioned, BBC is interested in my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse. If that deal goes, that will be extremely lucrative.
Also, merchandising. That's a YA fantasy, a young adult fantasy, so there's so many things in that novel that could be t-shirts, cups, but also there's like some cool magical cuffs, kind of like Wonder Woman cuffs that the protagonist Anna has. So those are merchandising opportunities.
Sometimes nonfiction can be turned into movies, like The Secret is an example of that. Or Marie Kondo's The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, which shockingly became a Netflix special—I'm sorry, Netflix series—even though English is not her first language because people like to watch other people who are hoarders tidy up.
Joanna: I was just thinking, I watched that series.
Aurora: I definitely learned how to fold from her.
Joanna: Yes, how to fold. Exactly.
Aurora: So nonfiction is stronger at helping you get speaking engagements, or getting on podcasts, or consulting or training. In fact, nonfiction books can be used to build any business that has some kind of expertise.
Both fiction and nonfiction can help you put your hat in the ring for the highest paid profession, which is speaking. So in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth into seven different models to create seven figures with your business.
Not all the models will work for you or for your particular book, but take a look and choose one, and then implement it strategically.
Joanna: Easier said than done, obviously. I've embraced who I am at this point, that I'm a multi-passionate creator. We'll come back to the entrepreneurial side. I also like to do everything myself, which is a strength and a weakness.
So I feel like I have a lot of these streams, but I have to split my attention between the different streams. Thus, they each become, I guess, less effective.
Have you got any tips for people like me, perhaps who can do lots of different things and want to create lots of different things, but for whom focus is a weakness?
Aurora: People like you? You mean people like us. I feel like I'm pretty much the same. I have the same strengths and flaws.
I want to acknowledge that the fact that you write both fiction and nonfiction really helped me give myself permission to start writing fiction again in 2020 because I had taken a pause from that. I wrote fiction when I was writing screenplays, and then I wrote only nonfiction as an author.
Okay, so here's some tips for outsourcing. Firstly, bad mistake that I've made, don't do this, don't first delegate to your VA, “handle my email.” That is a difficult task and not easy to systematize.
Assign a repeatable task that can be systematized, tracked, and measured. Then allow some time to train the person and track and measure results.
Here's an example. So like two months ago, I hired a new virtual assistant, but all I gave her to do is just one task. She only books me on podcasts. Then now that she's got the system down, I could give her more tasks, but how do I measure her results?
Like most people have virtual assistants who are working remotely. It's hard to know if they're working ten hours, or one hour, forty hours. So I told her just track how many podcasts you book.
So I know how many she books per month, I know how many hours she's charging, and we both know that is the criteria by which you will be judged. So that is useful, and now that she's got that down, I could give her some other tasks to do.
Or another example, I thought this was a rather good use of the strategic. I've got strategic, activator, learner, relator, maximizer, and strategic in Clifton Strengths. So I use some of those skills.
When I wanted to hire a cover designer for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I wanted to have a great cover. But what does it really matter what I think is a great cover? What matters is what kind of covers are actually selling in fantasy.
So I reverse engineered it, and you can do this too. I looked at independently published fantasy books that were best sellers, using K-lytics as the research to give me that data.
Then I looked at those books, and I looked at their covers, and I looked inside the ones that I liked the covers for the cover designer, and then I contacted that cover designer.
So that was more effortful than maybe going through Reedsy, or 99designs or DesignCrowd or Upwork, but the result is an award-winning cover that hit the market's bullseye. So those are two little tips that I think listeners can find useful.
Joanna: How do you find people to help you? How did you find that VA?
Aurora: I asked my friends, who have you worked with as VA that that you'd recommend?
Joanna: Okay, so personal recommendations.
Aurora: I have had actually really good success. I have a great assistant that I found on Upwork who does a lot of behind the scenes. There's so many formatting, reformatting, and re-uploading books and covers, and tweak this, and oh no, we won another award, put that on the thing.
So I have somebody that has done that for me. I've done many covers on Upwork. I have another cover designer I work with on Reedsy for a series of legal thrillers that I'm working with the client Michael Stockham on. You know, he's a New York Times bestselling cover designer.
I think the best thing is not to try to find one person to do everything, but zero in on what is a repeatable task that you need done, and who is the best person to do it.
Joanna: This is definitely one of my weaknesses. I do have some people, and I have had other people over the years, but when it's like, well, who's the best person to do this? It's often, well I am, clearly I'm the best person.
Aurora: I want to comment on that. Yes, we have to get over that. Like I noticed with myself, I am a recovering perfectionist, and still only partly recovered. So it does trip me up. Like I know I would be the best person.
I wouldn't be the best person to do a cover design, but I would be the best person to book myself on podcasts. I wanted to be on Joanna Penn's podcast, so I reached out to her personally because it mattered to me.
We have to get over that because there's only so many hours in the day. If your time is worth $500 an hour or $1,500 an hour, as Joanna Penn's is probably, then if you're doing $20 an hour tasks, this is not a wise sacrifice.
We are sacrificing doing a great job at something, say Joanna Penn is the only one who can write her thrillers, nobody else can do that. So if she's also, I don't know, uploading audios to have her podcast broadcast widely, and she could delegate that, that would be better.
Joanna: That would be better. Actually, it's really funny, as we record this, I have just finally outsourced my podcast production process, only after 15 years.
Aurora: Okay, okay.
Joanna: So I get a point for outsourcing. My cleaner was here today, so I mean, this is another point.
It doesn't have to be that you outsource stuff around your author business. For me, paying for a cleaner means that I can spend that time working on my book.
So I feel like there are different things we can do in our lives to value the things that we can do. I mean, sometimes you do have to bootstrap things. People might not have the money.
One of the first things I did when I started out as an author is I did hire a bookkeeper. I was like, I am not reconciling all of these things, like that is not something I want to do.
So my first virtual assistant was a bookkeeper. So I feel like we do this one thing at a time, but as you get more into practice, you can do it more.
Aurora: Another quick little tip, like I find myself sometimes feeling annoyed and resentful when I'm uploading a book, again, to KDP because the cover art designer, I don't know, had a typo or something.
Then I catch myself, I'm like, “Aurora, you're choosing to do this yourself because you love this fantasy project. It really matters to you, and you want to baby it along until it gets a little bit more life.” So like I coach myself to be grateful in that moment.
If I notice a pattern of ongoing, “Ugh, I can't believe I'm doing this,” it's time for me to look for somebody else to do that.
For example, my son totally made my day because he did a whole bunch of art for the fantasy series on NightCafe, and the images blew me away.
It gave me this surge of creativity about the project. He's got a bachelor in Game Art and Design, so Bachelor of Science, so he knows how to do cover art and to do much more quickly than I do. It gave me such a surge. So there can be a lot of value in in delegating as well.
Joanna: Yes, I definitely outsource my cover design. Although I am having fun with AI art as well. I think NightCafe has a lot of AI tools. Super fun.
Just coming back on that, the kind of outsourcing, returning to the screenwriting and pitching things.
Now, I think most authors, like 99% of authors, would like an agent to pitch their projects, even if they're an independent author. That can be a difficult sell because with most literary agents, you're pitching them for the whole book, for all the publishing and things like that. How are you managing that as an independent author?
Aurora: Like you, I have freedom as one of my top values. Actually, it's my top value. I think it is for both of us. So in the book, Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth about why I believe that independent publishing and independent pitching, and getting over this whole thought that you need a big publisher or you need an agent, is the best strategy.
So in my experience, it's harder for you, or for anyone, to pitch an agent than to pitch the project. So I think, in my experience, the most valuable skill is to learn how to use your words, so that the right words, at the right time, can change your life when you say them to the right people.
Rather than get caught up in the like 1990 mindset that you need an agent or you need a big publisher, why not learn how to pitch.
Then maybe you'll join me next year at the Banff Film and Television Festival, or join me at Napier, or join me in Cannes, and pitch it.
Nobody is going to be better at pitching your project than you are, but you do need to practice and decide that it's worth your time. Just really quick on that, it is worth your time.
There's a really great book called Significant Objects. They put one hundred different objects on eBay, with or without story that added significance. It wasn't a pitch, it was a significance. For example, “These are my grandmother's pot mitts. I remember coming home from school and she would bake us chocolate chip cookies, and it was amazing.”
There's no value to me in buying those pot mitts because you had cookies from your grandma, but it added significance, and the value increase was 27-fold. So adding a story adds value to the listener. I mean, I've shared a few stories today with Joanna Penn. Probably one of them is going to stick with you, I don't know which one.
If it's worth the time for somebody like Steve Jobs to practice his Apple launch pitch and presentation for three weeks when he is running a huge company, then I think it's worth all of our time as authors to get good at pitching what we're up to.
Joanna: Do you have any resources that you recommend, in terms of books or courses around pitching particularly?
Aurora: I really like the book Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff. I also like what you just said about gratitude and you recording it on audio. Record yourself on video or audio, and you'll kind of notice if you pay attention that, oh, I talked too long about that. Then get it tighter and tighter.
It's one of the things I do with my clients. Like one of my clients yesterday, he's got a 10-minute meeting with Universal or something, I think it was a big company anyway. So he's practiced what is he going to say in that 10 minutes.
So when you learn about neuroscience, I studied neuroscience, you want to understand the process of how to pitch something. So there's basically three steps because you need to address the three different brain portions that we have.
So he rehearsed this with me yesterday. You can rehearse with yourself or with a friend. Basically, the first thing to do is address the croc brain. Then second thing to do is address the midbrain. Then the third thing to do is you can then address the cerebral cortex.
Most people, especially educated people, try to just address the cerebral cortex. It's the verbal equivalent of sending a complete stranger an Excel spreadsheet by email. They're not going to open it.
So the simple analogy is the croc brain is the ancient reptilian brain. It's looking for, is this sexy? Is this exciting? Is this glittery? Is it something to mate with or snack on? Is it attractive? So that would be the equivalent of your subject line in an email.
So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that equivalent to that is, you know, it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who. Those are two of the very best fantasy bestsellers of all time. Doctor Who was the longest running TV series, just as an aside.
Or with the book, Turn Words into Wealth, the title is addressing the croc brain. It's kind of like, what is this about? So people who are interested in turning their words into wealth were like, okay, tell me more. So your first step addressing the croc brain should be very quick, a couple of seconds.
The second step is to address the midbrain. Human beings survived for so long because we were not alone. We survived as tribes, as communities, as families. We are hyper vigilant for social status.
So for example, even being on this podcast with Joanna Penn, it creates social status because Joanna thinks I'm worth talking to. Conversely, if you happen to know me, I think Joanna is worth talking to. So that enhances both of our social status.
When you're pitching your book, you want to address the second thing next, the social status.
So for Turn Words Into Wealth, I say that it's won Outstanding Nonfiction Book of the Year in its category, which is publishing.
For Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I say that it won the American Fiction Award Best Preteen Book in 2023, and it also won the Reader’s Choice Award in 2023. Then in 2024, it was a finalist in the UK Wishing Shelf, which is really cool because they have 150 kids actually read the books.
Okay, so for whatever your project or book is, what is the second step for you? How could you indicate that other people who are awesome think it's good?
For example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, Dr. Wayne Dyer endorsed it. He said, “I read every page of this beautiful diary. It touched my heart, and I'm sure it will impact yours.” Okay, so each of those is an example of doing the second step around the midbrain.
Then the third step, now that you've got people listening, then you can go into more depth. Either give them the synopsis or the plot summary, or whatever you'd like to do with that.
So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, it would be: Anna is a 13-year-old girl who wants to be an actress. She grew up in Los Angeles. Her father is a very busy and distracted film producer who's off to shoot a movie in Africa.
So he sends his daughter Anna and his son Zachary to London to be with his brother and to go to boarding school while he's busy shooting a movie. So they arrived in London, they're all excited. They want to see the Tower of London, but there's something even more interesting in their uncle's garage.
It's this experimental car. He says, “Just stay away from the experimental car, I've got to go out for a bit.” Of course, that's like a magnet. The kids jump in the experimental car, and Anna, who is an optimist and a little bit reckless, fiddles with it and pushes the button to go on a random joy ride.
This takes the kids off the planet Earth to another planet entirely in the multiverse. When they land, they get into trouble immediately because their vehicle is out of fuel. And oh, no, they happen to land on somebody and apparently kill her.
This gives them instant friends because the person they killed is notoriously evil, and instant enemies because other people are out to get vengeance. So then the rest of the story is about will Anna be able to get back to planet Earth?
Her brother gets kidnapped, will she be able to save him? Will the forces of evil on Telesora be overcome by Anna and her brother? Or will the reverse happen, and we will never see the kids again? So that's what Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse is about.
So the third step is the longest step, where you give a bit more detail about whatever you're up to. So between each one of these three steps, you want to pause so that the other person has a chance to say something so that it's more of a conversation.
So I go into more detail in Turn Words Into Wealth about how to use the neuroscience of communication, but hopefully that made sense.
Joanna: Yes, I think it's so important. As you say, this is a preteen book, and then someone says, well, actually, I'm looking for horror books. Then that's probably not a good match.
Often I feel people are pitching and pitching, but they're not thinking about the person on the other side.
So as you say, even you can say one line. Then are they actually interested or do they completely blank?
I want to come back on social status.
Have you found at all that being an independent author has meant that you have a lower social status?
Or has it just not even been an issue with this?
Aurora: I used to really worry about that and fretted that that was the case. I'm over it now. It's whatever it is, right? I feel like I have status for other things, but I'm not a Colleen Hoover, I'm not a New York Times bestselling author. There's things I don't have.
For all of the listeners, there's things that you're strong at. I have launched multiple seven-figure businesses from scratch. That's pretty kick ass. I've got a background in film and television, and that's pretty kick ass. I have success knowing how to start something from scratch and make it work, that's awesome. Plus, I have written ten books. That's quite a few.
So I am not willing to care more about what other people think of me than what I think of me. For me, I'm a very independent, very entrepreneurial, freedom focused person. Why would I want to have a publisher to dilute or mute or change my message? I don't.
In fact, in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I give a number of examples, but the one that I liked the most is David Goggins, who wrote the book Can't Hurt Me. He's a Navy Seal and a long-distance runner, a pretty amazing athlete.
He met with an agent in New York who told him that if he self-published his book, he'd be lucky to sell 5000 copies. He decided to self-publish, and he's dyslexic, so he had to hire a ghostwriter to write it.
Then he went on over a thousand podcasts to market it, and the result is he probably made $20 million from his book and his audiobook. He sold over a million copies of the book in the first year and 600,000 copies of the audiobook.
If he had gone with traditional wisdom, he would have seen a fraction of that, and maybe he wouldn't have been able to afford to spend so much time doing the podcast.
Why give up 90% of the revenue when you still have to do 90% of the work?
Joanna: Yes. I mean, there are pros and cons for everyone. I didn't know David Goggins had gone indie. That's really interesting.
We're almost out of time, so I do want to just come to a final thing. So in Turn Words Into Wealth you say, “There is more opportunity and more danger than ever before due to exponential technological, social, and economic change.”
Now, obviously, I talk a lot about surfing this wave of change. AI, in particular, direct sales, and all of this. So given you're always learning, always changing direction—
What are your recommendations for making the most of this extraordinary, but also difficult, time?
Aurora: Well, I have a couple of tips. First tip, keep listening to The Creative Penn podcast.
Joanna: I didn't even pay you for this!
Aurora: It's true. It's a godsend for leaning into this with excitement instead of terror.
Secondly, have fun. For example, those NightCafe images that my son did yesterday for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, like they made my day. They were so much fun, and now they've sparked a bunch of things that I'm going to write, just by seeing the images. I also put them on TikToks.
Allocate time for learning.
This is something I needed to coax myself into because I would get impatient. When I shifted my mindset and leaned into my learner Clifton Strengths and allocate time for learning, then that helped me reframe it.
Instead of a frustrating thing that I had to learn, like a good thing that I had to learn. So a couple of things that I am playing with, pick one of these maybe, and do them. There's Authors.ai, PickFu.com, Descript. Joanna has talked about ChatGPT, and SudoWrite, and ProWritingAid, or NightCafe. Like pick one, and maybe spend a little time playing with it.
Joanna: I feel like leaning into that curiosity, there are so many things to look at. I mean, for example, music. I'm not into music at all, but a lot of authors are, and there's so many music discovery tools and creation tools that I know people are playing with. That's not my bag. I don't do that.
I play with the image stuff as well, and of course, the various writing tools. It's really listening to your curiosity. If you hate something, don't force yourself.
Do the things that are interesting to you. It might be a challenge at first, but you might discover things you really enjoy.
Aurora: Exactly right. The same thing with marketing. Don't try to do all kinds of possible marketing. Double down on the ones that make sense for you.
Like I love talking on podcasts, so I do podcasts. I do TikTok, and I do Kickstarter. That's it. Those are my three things. I can't do everything, so I picked the three things that are the most fun or interesting for me.
Joanna: Absolutely.
Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?
Aurora: Oh, thanks for asking, Joanna. Well, I am launching the second book in my Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse series. I would love, love, love if people would follow me on Kickstarter.
You can go to MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com, and it will redirect you to Kickstarter when Kickstarter is live. Otherwise it will give you other goodies when Kickstarter is not live. Just a little tip. If you do a Kickstarter, do a redirect so that you can take advantage of sending people to somewhere else after the Kickstarter is not live.
My book Turn Words Into Wealth, which we talked about today, is available on Amazon. If you'd like some gift videos and the gift Thought Leader Launch starter library, you can get that on my website AuroraWinter.com. Thanks so much, Joanna. It was really fun to do this podcast with you.
Joanna: Thanks so much for coming on, Aurora. That was great.
Writing Hard Truths And Tips For Writing Non-Fiction With Efren Delgado
Jun 24, 2024
How do we write authentic humanity into our books, whether that's our own experience or a fictional character's? How can we embrace the challenges of life and the author journey and make the most of the opportunities along the way? Efren Delgado gives his tips in this interview.
Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna
Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience. He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Balancing being authentic while maintaining your boundaries
How to take our failures and move on to success
Creating a mind map to help during the brainstorming process
Fact checking and managing citations when writing nonfiction
Writing to deal with trauma while avoiding using it as therapy
Uncomfortable truths indie authors need to face about the industry
Common misconceptions authors get wrong when writing FBI thrillers
Joanna: Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience.
He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology. So welcome to the show, Efren.
Efren: Thank you, Joanna. I've been looking forward to this.
Joanna: Yes, it's very exciting. First off—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you went from FBI agent to author.
Efren: I'm going to backtrack a little bit. It all started from a little bit of minor bullying, relatively minor bullying, when I was a child. That planted a basic seed in me just asking, why would people choose to be mean when they could simply be nice? If you think about that question, it's the fundamental question of psychology.
Why do people do what they do? More specifically, why do bad people do what they do?
As a child, I had no idea and a legitimate interest. So that seed was there. It did also inspire me to want to protect others if I ever could.
As I grew up throughout school and university, I developed my interest in psychology and, accidentally, my interest in criminology. I decided to pursue a career in protecting people, and I simply thought the best vehicle for that was the FBI.
So I joined the FBI, I implemented my purpose, you could say, in protecting people in the National Security Division of the FBI, and later the Criminal Division, what most people think of when they think of the FBI. Then later in the private sector, protecting people as a bodyguard and a threat assessment consultant.
Now, currently as a writer, author, speaker, I'm just trying to express the observations I've made to help encourage the “good guys,” your audience and my reader, that they are actually stronger than the bad guys.
They are not chihuahuas barking at the doorbell presenting this large presentation of how scary they are. Good guys actually have the courage to be vulnerable, to be humble, to be kind. That's the main message I want to come across, and that's what brought me to the FBI, and brought me to you today.
Joanna: Yes, and I love the book. We're going to get into it in a minute. I'm fascinated. So you were bullied, and you became a protector. Obviously, a lot of people listening are fiction writers, and so often when we think about writing antagonists, sometimes they may have been bullied and turn into bullies.
Sometimes people who are abused become abusers, whereas some people who are abused become protectors. So just with all your knowledge of psychology and criminal behavior—
How do you think people become the protector instead of the bully in a situation where you came from?
When does it go one way, not the other?
Efren: So I love this question, not only as a protector, but also as an author. The best antagonists, the best protagonists, have elements of both. It's just not one or the other.
So in the writing world, you'll have an antagonist who is this evil villain, but you have these pet the dog moments, and that's showing their humanity, their motive. Their belief might not be that they're actually evil, they actually might think they're doing good, they're just misguided.
Then the opposite is true with the good guys. They're the most interesting protagonists, or characters in general. They have some dichotomy there too. They're not saints, but they show some human vulnerability. So I've seen that in the real world too.
The answer is not as complicated as it seems. The trend, the pattern I've noticed all of my life, and particularly in the criminal world, is —
Good guys are more selfless, and the bad guys are more selfish.
There's a reason for both of those. They always bark at the doorbell, like the analogy I was giving you before, not because they're brave and courageous, but they're so scared that whatever's on the other side will actually see their weaknesses. So they selfishly attack, project, and they're very loud so that nobody dare see what's on their inside.
On the other side, the good people expose themselves to their weaknesses or imperfections, their mortality. That takes courage. That takes risk of being judged, risk of being ridiculed, risk of exposing your humanity, and that's all bravery.
The antagonists are jealous of that bravery. They have that envy. What do people do when they're envious and jealous? They hate. What do you do with things you hate? You attack. That creates your villain.
Joanna: Yes, there's loads in your book that people can mine for their fiction. Absolutely, and of course, I did psychology as well at various levels in my career. So I loved reading all the psychology stuff.
You did mention there that good people expose themselves. That brought me to a quote in your book. This is from the book,
“Most people should not know everything about you. That is privileged information that should be held by the special ones who have earned your trust.”
I found this really interesting dichotomy in the book between these boundaries and keeping things close to you, don't give too much away, but also, like you just said, good people expose themselves, they are authentic. You're having to put yourself out there, and you're talking about things you've done. So how can we balance these things? How are you balancing these things?
Efren: I just think it's really important to acknowledge that if you're human, you're mortal. You have flaws, you have weaknesses, you have insecurities, you have failures. That's what makes us human.
Instead of shrinking away from all of those imperfections, we should embrace our humanity. Even though it's difficult to do, anything worthwhile is difficult. So part of that is acknowledging the concept I talk about, that oil and water, emotion and logic, don't mix. So these insecurities are coming from an emotional place.
So simply acknowledging our imperfections and other people's imperfections, you have to be careful about who you trust with those insecurities, and your secrets, and your goals, your ambitions, because it's very easy for the naysayers, the negative nancies of the world, to tear you down and pull you off your path, or at least distract you from your path.
So I suggest to your audience, to my readers, to be truly dispassionate when you're assessing your associates, your family members, your friends, your colleagues, and be objective.
Recognize the patterns of people who have always been supportive and encouraging, and reward those people with trust in them, with more of your business, your life, your insecurities, your interests, your goals.
Don't be in denial about people who should be your allies, but are not.
Simply because they're blood, or you've known them for 30 years, or you've done business deals with them, if your gut is telling you they're not truly your allies, listen to that.
It's hard enough to seek your purpose and climb your mountain to reach your summit, you don't need to invite other people to pull you down. So I just ask everybody to be truly objective and discerning about who their true wolf pack is, and sometimes you just have to fly alone like an eagle.
Joanna: Just some practicalities, though. Again, with your background and a lot of the details you've included in the book, which as you put in the beginning, you have had to run past the FBI. You haven't shared anything you couldn't share, but you do really put stuff out there that gives away a lot about you.
I imagine there are people out there who might have some issues with you. So how do you balance putting yourself out there in the world to share what you want to with your own safety and this kind of difficult balance? Now, most of us won't be in the situation you are, but—
We all feel vulnerable about sharing things about our life with the public in marketing.
So just practically, how are you doing that? How do you balance it? Or is this something you don't even worry about?
Efren: I do have to worry about it, but it's just lethal force, when you have to potentially kill a bad person to save other people. In that extreme scenario, you can't decide when you're in the moment, you have to decide it early on.
In sharing my private information, or some personal information, or some personal vulnerabilities in a book to the public or on social media, I've made a choice already in advance to face any potential backlash before it arrives.
So I contend that true living is worth dying for. That's hard, but also a good life is difficult. So I just think it's so important.
We live once in this world so you really have to commit some risk in order to truly live.
One of my biggest regrets would be being on my deathbed and not truly living my life. I'll sometimes re-engineer what I wish I would have done when I was 30, 40, 50, I'm approaching 50, and just go out and do that. I just mentally time travel and try to do those things.
This book is a classic example of it, or doing an interview with you is a classic example. I'm putting it all out there, anything that is truly beneficial to other people, and facing the backlash.
There's different motives for being a critic, so if somebody is criticizing your book, your writings, your podcast, you have to know what their motive is. If they haven't accomplished much, then their motive is probably just a Negative Nancy kind of mode of trying to tear people down who are risking entrepreneurship and living life.
If their motive is constructive, then I would heed those criticisms because they're not coming from a negative place, and there's probably some merit to it. Or as an author, when you have a developmental edit, that's very humbling. That humility is where wisdom is, so you can learn a lot during these developmental edits.
Joanna: Yes, that's true. It's actually funny that you mentioned backlash there.
We all worry about what people are going to say or what people are going to think, but the reality is, most people in the world are not going to read our book.
Efren: That's true.
Joanna: So even if we worry about it, like my mum, when I put out a book called One Day In Budapestyears ago now, my mum was really worried that some right-wing fanatics were going to come and attack me. She was like, “You can't publish this!” and obviously, it was crickets. Like there was literally no response.
Efren: Right. That's funny.
Joanna: So we always overthink the fear of what will happen when we put ourselves out there.
I do want to come to another quote from the book, which kind of relates to how many of us have fear of failure. You have this quote which says,
“Failures, counter to their common perception, are integral to achieving any success. As the title of the book announces, the opposite is true.”
I wondered about this, how you're thinking about failure. Like whether that's failure that's happened in your career so far, or for authors in particular, it is lower than expected sales.
How can we take our failures and move on to success?
Efren: I think we've been taught in working-class, middle-class cultures, in particular, we've been taught to be spokes on a wheel, and not to be the wheel, not to be the leader. So we fear getting a bad mark in school or having any kind of imperfect running in a football match.
So people start to fear risking anything at all. So you're trained, or we're trained, to be spokes on a wheel. The reality is that failure is a prerequisite to success. You cannot succeed without failure.
The bigger overarching idea is humility is the only path to wisdom. So when you fail, you're humbled. Just like when we're little kids and we go from crawling to walk in, and we stumble and scrape our knees, those are difficult moments of getting our knees scrape, and yet they build resilience.
The same is true of becoming an author, or a speaker, or an FBI agent. Whatever that difficult goal happens to be, I guarantee one thing, you will fail and stumble all throughout your journey.
I contend that the only time you actually truly fail, in the conventional sense, is when you give up. Otherwise, it's just a journey, and you're growing from that journey. So I suggest for people to embrace failure because you're always growing. Embrace the humility because that's where the wisdom is.
Joanna: What specific failure have you faced that led to the success of you finishing this book?
Efren: I failed in everything I've done before I've succeeded. So that's my point. So even if your failure is reaching a timeline of when you want to get that vomit draft done, then you just have to reassess and set a new timeline.
Or it means that the bones you've been writing, the foundational bones of the book, need more work, and it's becoming a better book for it.
Then when you start to get into the meat of it, the stories, the anecdotes, the parables, or the research, which I also consider the spice of the book. Then it's just going to be a better product as you grow from, look, this isn't working, let me pivot and do that.
Becoming an FBI agent requires a lot of physical training or testing and that sort of thing, and sometimes people don't pass those on the first round. Getting in the fetal position and giving up is not the path to success.
We've got a pastor out here in Southern California that I often quote that says, “Fruit grows in valleys, not on mountaintops.” So when you're climbing your mountain to reach your summit, you'll eventually fall in the valley, but that's where all the fruit is, all the fruit of wisdom.
So you have a choice. You can sulk and give up, or you can embrace that wisdom and stuff your pockets and renourish yourself and resume your climb.
So I've faced failure in every aspect of life, but I've got a stubborn bone in me that I just want to persist. I'm grateful for that bone, even though it makes other people mad. You only live once, go for it.
Joanna: This is a very ambitious book, and I think it's excellent. I really enjoyed it. It surprised me. I don't know why it surprised me. It's got a lot of great stuff in.
How long did it take you to get this book into the world, from when you thought about it, to finally publishing?
Efren: So I had the bones, the ideas of the book, probably building throughout my career, but I didn't have the confidence or maybe even the experience yet to back it up. Near the end of my public career in the bureau and in joining the private sector as bodyguard and threat assessment person, I was pretty confident in my idea.
So that's essentially the bones of the book, the ideas that most truths are counterintuitive and paradoxical, ideas like emotion and logic don't mix, the only thing to fear is the unknown. Little ideas like this that I knew could benefit my reader, your audience, anybody who wants to live beyond mediocrity.
So that probably took about a year to nail down in an organized format. Then when you're writing fiction or nonfiction, you get these ideas at three in the morning, or these stories that pop in your head.
Whether they're experiences from your memories, or from conversations you have from people, or things you observe in the real world that suddenly go, wow, that would be a great illustration of these principles, the bones of my book. So I'll jot those down, and I start to build the book that way.
At the very end, the spice of the book is the little additional anecdotes, the refinement, the clarifications, the editing, and then the formatting to present this big picture with all those elements together. So overall, it probably took about three years to complete.
Joanna: How did you keep everything organized? There are a lot of different, as you say, a lot of anecdotes, there are different quotes, there are things about your life, there's bits of memoir.
What tools did you use for researching and the writing process?
Efren: So what's funny is I've got all these softwares, and what I ended up using was simply Pages on my iPad. I'm just very, I guess, linear that way. I'll have those bones, which essentially become an outline, but I started out with the mind map.
That was the idea portion of the book, what I wanted the book to be about. What are like five essential points I need the reader to understand? Then I easily converted that mind map into an outline.
As these anecdotes, or stories, or things that need a little bit more due diligence materialized, I would research that, plop it in whatever area of the outline that belongs, or the ongoing manuscript. Then I'll skip to the next spot that I'm currently motivated to research or explore.
So writing the book was not from page one to the last page, which I think is page 550, it was a lot of skipping around. What really guided me were those bones, the outline.
I think that's a lot more important in the nonfiction so you have a rough outline to know where you're going, so I'm not all over the place. I, on purpose, divided the first half of the book to be named Volume One: Foundations and the second half Implementations.
The first half covers a lot of those foundational issues that you just have to get out of the way, but I back those up with stories and biographies.
The second half really gets into the weeds once I've got the reader with me and understanding these concepts. Now it's more about implementation and how things affect the reader, their own communities, and then society overall.
Joanna: Coming back to that mind map, I like mind maps too. I just would tend to do that on a piece of paper, like with my hand. Is that how you did that?
Did you use software for mind mapping?
Efren: No, the mind map was a pen-to-paper, one-page kind of thing. I knew the book I wanted to write. I thought the theme of the book would be empathy because that's such a vital part of understanding behavior. I just contend that empathy is the active synonym for psychology.
It takes some work to understand other people. It's not just something you read in a textbook. Then as I wrote the book, I almost started discovering the patterns of these counterintuitive truths.
That kind of took over the role of pointing out these truths to encourage the reader that these truths are on their side. That the good guys actually have a lot of benefits over the bad guys, even though on the surface, it appears that the bad guys are always winning these little battles.
Joanna: Yes. I'm sorry to ask you all the technical questions, but I know how hard it is to write nonfiction. For people listening who are writing nonfiction, these are really important questions.
So as I said, you have a lot of quotes, you have citations. The book is really rich for all of those, but I know how hard it is to wrangle it. If you were just doing it in Pages, like it sounds crazy. So how did you make sure to not plagiarize and make sure all of your quotes had proper quote marks? Did you get fact checking?
How did you manage the citations and quotes?
Efren: Yes, that's a great question. As I was illustrating the book with parable stories, I'd focus on a certain section that needed further illustration or research. I would dive deep to look for things that are, first of all, interesting.
I had two principles for writing the book, in general. One was reader first, and two, not boring. So part of that mindset of whether I'm writing a fiction or nonfiction, it's everything has to benefit the reader, and number two, it can't be boring.
So as I'm researching the points I'm trying to convey, I want them to be corroborated, that's the education part, but also to be interesting. So these emotional stories about reality, or parables, or whatever it may be, that's what I honed in on to really illustrate my points and entertain the reader.
So when I finally got to that, I implemented stories, quotes, anything that could serve that purpose.
I could only do so much to make sure those are truthful, so then I hired a company of fact checkers.
I can't believe they love doing this because it's such a tedious work, but they fact checked my quotes, my stories, that sort of thing. Then they created roughly a 30-page bibliography for the back of the book.
I did not do most of that work. I did what I could in the beginning, and then I passed on everything I could for them to corroborate it.
Joanna: That's great. Would you recommend that company? Give their name?Because I know people are like, oh, what's that?
Efren: Absolutely, I would. Book Launchers is an independent publishing company that allows you to keep 100% of your IP, your intellectual property. In their company, Julie Broad is the owner, and I've become friends with her.
She has people who are professional developmental editors, copy editors, formatters, everything you could think of under the sun that could really get the book to a professional level that a traditional publisher would provide.
Joanna: Yes, so that is partnership publishing. That's what we call partnership publishing. It's great that you've been happy with that because some people have difficult experiences, but it sounds like you had a very good one.
Efren: I did. Frankly, most of the companies I researched, I wasn't very impressed with them. I got a very salesy vibe from them, and that's a turn off for me and probably most people. My favorite trait from Book Launchers was, frankly, their authenticity, particularly from the founder, Julie Broad.
Joanna: Oh, that's great. Coming back to the book because you do cover some difficult situations in it. Again, a quote from the book, you say,
“Trauma does not note its presence lightly. It engraves itself into the stone of our minds.”
Of course, I read that and I was like, okay, I wonder how much trauma is engraved in your mind because of the things you've been through.
How can we use our writing to help deal with trauma, but also make sure we're not using it as therapy?
Efren: Yes, that's great. I think writing is very therapeutic because it allows you to pause with your issues, and think about them, and digest them.
So in nonfiction book writing, you could truly learn, but as you're exploring your characters in a fiction book, you could really start to dive in and empathize with your different characters.
So, for nonfiction, writing journals for yourself or memoirs as an actual book, it still has to be reader first, but it really will help the individuals process their own life experiences.
On the fiction side, hashing out your protagonists, and the villains, or the support characters, I just think that helps the individual reflect on their own issues and empathize with their characters. Even if they're bad, knowing what truly motivates this bad person.
For example, if you've got somebody with extreme bullying in their background, and maybe they get in their villainous heart for vengeance. That's kind of a classic trope that would work, but it would help the individual actually digest their own thoughts. You're forcing yourself to think and reflect, as opposed to just emote.
Joanna: I can't remember—
Do you have a trigger warning in the book?
Efren: What do you mean by a trigger warning?
Joanna: Oh, I love that you even asked that question. Okay, so I guess in the last few years, we've seen authors told to include this at the beginning of a book. It might be a novel, it might be a nonfiction book. This might include things that will upset you or offend you or will.
If you're claustrophobic, it might make you feel claustrophobic. If you have been through trauma, it might trigger that. Now, I'm not saying your book does that, it didn't trigger me. It's something that's become trendy in case you upset people. So what do you think about that?
Efren: I think that's fine, but those people are not my reader who need a trigger warning. So I dedicated my book—like, I love my family, and my wife, and all of that, but I don't do the traditional dedication to my wife, or my parents, or to a best friend. I dedicated my book to those who want to live beyond mediocrity.
Anybody who really wants to live a great, fantastic life has to face a lot of uncomfortable truths about reality.
The benefit to that is just like exercise, the more you do it, the better you get at it. So when you stop relying on denial for comfort or seeking comfort in everything, you start embracing the difficulty of accomplishing things, and you get good at it. You literally get in shape for it.
Just like tearing muscle for increased strength, you're getting better with resilience of facing a lot of uncomfortable truths. As somebody from a criminology background, a lot of those uncomfortable truths are that bad guys exist, criminals exists, bad people exist.
There are some not so nice people in your own family, your own bloodline, or your own “friendship circles” that are not good for you. So the proactive, deliberate acceptance of that suggests you should create boundaries for that, but not at the extent of denying it.
A trigger warning for me is almost the antithesis of what my book is all about.
It's almost like somebody who doesn't want to face reality, or I guess maybe they just want to know if they're not my reader.
As I put literally twice in my book, if you are not appreciating some of the truths I'm laying out my book, you would have thrown it across the room by now. I'm talking to the reader, in case they are not my reader.
So that also encourages the person who progresses in my book to know they are my reader, and that they're willing to face some of these uncomfortable truths that I promise at the end will give you a lot of benefits.
Joanna: I agree, I don't like trigger warnings. I think you should be able to communicate what's in the book by the cover, by the description, and people should know whether or not this is something they want to read. For example, if you don't like horror, don't pick up a horror book. If you don't want to know what humans are like, don't pick up a book like yours.
Efren: Right, exactly. Pretty quickly, I think not just from the covers, but from the early-on parts of the book, that first chapter, you know if something's for you or not. There's nothing wrong with closing a book and putting it down or turning off the television or the radio. It's just a choice.
I'm a big proponent of freedom and free will. So people could not like something and just turn it off, or they should be allowed to have the opportunity to engage in something.
Joanna: On that freedom then, and that you worked with a partnership publisher—
Why did you choose to go the independent author route?
With your background and experience, I imagine you could have pitched a traditional publishing deal.
Efren: Frankly, I just think that in the modern time, it's a lot easier to independently publish professionally than it used to be.
Also, the whole spirit of my purpose in protecting people from tyrants and encouraging people who have more difficulty protecting themselves from others, it's almost like the big traditional publishing industry takes advantage of a lot of potentially great authors.
If they do give them a deal, they keep a lot of the IP or a lot of the profits, and I just resent that. So in this day and age, I would encourage people to publish independently.
I'm not criticizing the traditional publishers because they have to make money, but in this day and age we have the internet, we have so many great podcasts like yours, and YouTube trainings. People can really grow independently.
I'm a big fan of independence for an individual and for society because a strong independent person could help other people on their own.
They don't have to be forced to do it. So I'm just very much of a freedom kind of person and independence kind of person. So in my mind, I had no choice but to publish independently.
Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. Then coming back to facing uncomfortable truths, which I think you talked about in a different context, but as indie authors we do have to face those things. You've now been doing this a while—
What are some of the uncomfortable truths that indie authors really need to face in the industry?
What are things that we might need to tackle?
Efren: I think one of the most fundamental ones, especially for a newer author, is to realize your book is not for everybody. In fact, it's not for most people. You shouldn't be disappointed about that, that should not be your goal.
You want to reach your particular audience. Somebody is interested in history of battles or wars is not interested in basket weaving techniques, and vice versa.
If somebody this is not interested in human behavior, or a lot of these uncomfortable realities about the bad guys make them squirm, and they'd rather just enjoy cookbooks or whatever, there's nothing wrong with that either. They should not read my book because they will be triggered.
So I just think that's one of the most important things is facing the reality that your book is not for everybody. The other thing is that you're going to face a difficulty for anything worthwhile, and just stay the course and persist because you'll grow a lot as you write the book.
The idea you have for your book when you start it definitely evolves into what your book is meant to be.
I just think a good guideline for that, or guidelines, is what I wrote on a little sticky and stuck to my iPad, and it's still there.
It's just to remember, number one, reader first, and number two, don't let it be boring. The way to implement the not be boring part is educational value in an entertaining or emotional way. Emotion is what engages people, whether it's fiction or nonfiction.
Joanna: Yes, absolutely. It is hard to remember that. Of course, what's boring for one person is interesting for another, and vice versa. For example, some people absolutely love romances, sweet romances. My mum has written some of those as Penny Appleton, and they're not my cup of tea as such.
So I guess that is another point, that what might not be boring for some people, might well be for other people. That comes to your point that your books are not for everyone.
Efren: Right, and if you're writing a technical book, I guess it's not designed for that. You just have to know what your book is for, what the purpose of your book is.
If you're writing a book about computer software, it's going to be very difficult to engage the emotions, but that reader is not interested in the emotions. They want to know the technical things. If you're writing a romance novel, you better engage that heart, or you will not have any readers.
Joanna: Yes, absolutely. In fact, those authors who engage the emotions the most do the best in terms of book sales. We've definitely seen that. I wondered what your plans are next.
Have you got the taste for writing books? Have you already started another one?
Efren: I have, and I've expressed it a little bit. I'm excited about the project I'm working on now, and I think your British audience would truly appreciate it.
Remember George Orwell's 1984, back in 1949? So if you remember the details of the book, it is totally depressing. It's a great book, but it's totally depressing. It ends where the protagonist, Winston, and his love or affair interest, Julia, get “reindoctrinated.” They pretty much get tortured to become compliant. The book ends where they're compliant followers of big brother, and it's very sad.
So what I've done as an optimistic American, is I've written a big draft of a sequel to that titled 2084because Julia got pregnant from their love affair, and their great grandchild is my protagonist in 2084, 100 years later.
This protagonist, just like a fish doesn't know it's wet, this protagonist is in a world where big brother is dominating, there is no resistance, there's zero memory of how it used to be, but his humanity starts to leak out. To vent out these criminal thoughts, these crime thoughts, he starts taking these walks. The walks don't suffice, so he has to find another outlet, and so on and so forth.
So you can imagine the character arc where he discovers humanity and has a lot of difficulty and resistance to discovering that humanity, but the character arc is very clear. There's plenty of conflicting characters and supportive characters along the path that will surprise the reader. I'm really excited about all three acts of my 2084, and it'll complement Orwell's 1984.
Joanna: That sounds good. Did you know about—and this is not at all like the story you've mentioned—but a book called Julia came out last year by an author called Sandra Newman, and it tells Julia's story in 1984. If you haven't read that, it might be interesting. It's set back in 1984 time, so it doesn't overlap with yours.
Efren: I did not know about that.
Joanna: It's about Julia. It came up when you said that. I was like, oh, you should put that on your reading list.
Efren: I'm definitely going to read that. Thank you for telling me. I can't believe I didn't know that. I'm super excited about it now.
Joanna: That's fantastic. Now, we're almost out of time, but I do have to ask you the FBI question because there are so many authors writing FBI thrillers. It's a very popular genre. There are so many TV shows and films.
Is there anything that really annoys you that people get wrong about the FBI regularly?
Efren: Yes, it's funny you mentioned that because probably less so in books and more and movies, the thing that gets to me is some of the tactics. Watching actors running around with their fingers on the triggers makes me absolutely crazy because that's so incredibly dangerous, but they do it all the time.
So we're trying to keep our finger on the side of the weapon, whether it's a long gun or a pistol, because just life happens. You trip over a log, or somebody sneaks up behind you, the human reaction is to jerk or defend, and so your finger goes right alongside that.
So if people are running around with their finger on the trigger, they'll be shooting people all the time. So that makes me crazy.
On the similar lines, when actors are carrying the long guns, they have what we call a chicken wing, that elbow is sticking out in the air. Now you're never going to unsee this when you watch movies, but we always want to put that elbow down and stay center balanced, as opposed to sticking that elbow up.
I don't know why people do that, but it's a tendency with long guns to stick your elbow in the air like a chicken wing. So it's not so serious, but those things drive me nuts.
More on the serious side, movies and books both always make it seem like the FBI and local police are enemies and in competition, when frankly, the opposite is true. The most professional detectives and police officers have worked alongside the most professional FBI agents like partners.
So the FBI can't get much done without their local partners. So we actually partner up very well. There's a lot of resources and overarching reach that the FBI has that the local police don't have, so it develops a great partnership.
So I'm a huge proponent of task forces. It's different agencies, local or federal, working together for one common mission. That kind of complements my idea on life in general, not just in combating crime or terrorism.
Just people working together, complementing their own resources, their own ideas, and being mission-oriented like a North Star, as opposed to ego-oriented where not a lot gets done, and there's a lot of bickering and squabbling.
Joanna: Do you have any recommended resources that authors can go to?
Efren: I'm not too familiar with a lot of quality FBI books because, frankly, I don't read a lot of FBI books because I've done it. It doesn't interest me so much.
The Michael Connelly books really do a good job of showing the police officers' life. He does a lot of research with how cops in LA are. I think there's a lot of accuracy there.
Then once he has those founding cultural principles down, then he branches off into creative storytelling that maybe aren't so true, but they're entertaining, which is the whole point of fiction. So Michael Connelly's books are great for police work in general.
Frankly, not to hoot my own horn, but my book would be excellent not just for understanding some FBI thought processes, but understanding criminals in general.
I think anybody writing fiction, you're always going to have an antagonist and protagonist to some degree, whether it's grand or focused on an individual. Truly understanding what motivates good and bad people to do what they do, and how they interact with each other, and the psychological reasoning behind it, my book is a blueprint for understanding all those things.
Where then your audience will have epiphanies for their own characters and for their own lives, and probably the antagonists in their own life, understanding why they're doing what they're doing. That knowledge will empower your reader to realize, look, I'm just fine. This person's a chihuahua barking at the doorbell.
Joanna: Fantastic.
So where can people find you and your book online?
Efren: So I've got all my links in one spot. My website EfrenDelgado.com, E-F-R-E-N-delgado.com.
Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Efren. That was great.
Collaborative Writing With AI With Rachelle Ayala
Jun 21, 2024
How can we use AI tools to enhance and improve our creative process? How can we double down on being human by writing what we are passionate about, while still using generative AI to help fulfil our creative vision? Rachelle Ayala gives her thoughts in this episode.
Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn
Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Understanding generative AI tools as a non-technical person
How the creative process can work with AI tools and why it's always changing
Using AI tools as a collaborative discovery process, and why it's all about your creative vision and author voice. For more on this, check out my AI-Assisted Artisan Author episode
Joanna: Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery. So welcome to the show, Rachelle.
Rachelle: Thank you, Joanna. Thank you for having me.
Joanna: I'm super excited to talk to you. As I was telling you, I have the ebook and the print edition of AI Fiction Mastery because I think you put things so well in your writing. Before we get into it—
Tell us a bit more about you and your background in technology and writing.
Rachelle: Okay, sure. I was a math major, and I actually have a PhD in applied math. So you would think that's kind of the farthest thing from writing.
I got into parallel computing back in the 80s. Then in the early 90s, neural networks, where we were basically trying to recognize handwritten characters between zero to nine. So that was quite interesting and fascinating.
So I basically worked in software development and network management until 2011. Then I got into writing. So romance writing was my gig, and I liked dealing with feelings and happy endings.
Joanna: Well, I love that, going from maths and neural networks into romance. You do explain a lot of the stuff behind AI in your books, which I think is really good. You're used to writing for normal people, so I don't find your writing technical at all.
Do you think people who are not very technical are struggling with this AI world at the moment?
Rachelle: I don't even think you need to be technical to understand AI because—well, there's different types of AI, but we're talking about large language models for writing.
So there's other AI systems like expert systems, machine learning, and people have been using that. They don't even know it, but they've been using it under the hood.
The AI we're talking about, large language models, ChatGPT was one of the first ones that most people became aware of. So GPT is a Generative Pretrained Transformer.
You could think of it as a word slot machine, where you could think of all these slots. So when you write a prompt, then the AI will look at the words that are in there, and then try to predict the best word that comes after.
Let's say, we say Monday, Wednesday, and most people will say Friday because that's the next word that you think of. Or if you say Monday, Tuesday, most people will say Wednesday.
So what the AI does is it was trained on reading, I think somebody said between half a trillion or trillion pieces of text. When an AI is trained, it's not reading a book like we do, where we read it from beginning to end.
So think of if you cut a piece of newspaper into a strip or a square, and then it's got all these words that are in there, and it's looking for words, associations, and patterns. So it'll say, oh, this word goes with that word, and those words go together.
So it could take a word like, say, “bark.” If it sees dog in the other slots, it's going to most likely come out with “woof,” but if it sees trees in the other slot, then it might say, “the bark is wrinkly or hard,” and it's thinking of a tree bark.
So that's how it is able to create words, and that's why you think it's intelligent, because it understands the context. It does so with these huge, huge context windows. So I don't want to get too technical, but a context window is how many words can it keep in its memory.
So it can look at all these associations and how those words go together, so it can best predict the next word that comes out of this word slot machine, so to say. It doesn't remember anything.
Joanna: It's interesting. You mentioned words there, like associations and patterns. I feel like the big misunderstanding with large language models is that some authors think that it's more like a database, where all these “stolen” books are sitting in a big database.
Then if you query it, it will pull out exact chunks from other people's books and use them. So you're always going to plagiarize or you're always going to be “stealing.” Like you and I hear these words a lot from authors who are really just starting out.
Can you explain why it's not a database?
Rachelle: Well, databases are storage. So if you query at a database, it pulls out exactly what's in there. I mean, this is like your social security number. It's not going to get it wrong, it's going to pull it right out. Your birthdate, if it's entered in correctly, it will pull it out.
Everybody knows that AI doesn't get things correct, or it doesn't get things exact. If you prompt it twice with the same prompt, like, say, “Write me a story about a road runner who is sick,” or something, it's going to write you something different.
Even that, if you think about how they trained AI, they trained it by inputting all these words that are associated together. Then they adjusted the weights of how these words are more likely to be with those words.
They're not retaining the words, the words are thrown away. The only thing it keeps is the weight.
So sort of like when you read a book, unless you have a photographic memory, you cannot recall that book, but you can recall the concepts because you have made associations between what you read and it communicated to you these ideas.
In fact, people say our memories are not like videos, our memories are actually assembled whenever we're recalling something. So we are making things up on the fly, based on all the associations that we've had in our lives. Similarly, that's how AI LLM really is making up things.
So when people say it lies to you, it's like, no. It's actually just making things up. You gave it a prompt that said, like, “Say happy birthday to me,” and it just keeps going with that.
There's also something called a temperature knob where you could basically increase the randomness, because you know, it's boring if that always gives you the same answer.
So they built in this randomness thing where it's going to look for either the most probable, or the next most probable, or it has a whole list of probable words that come next. If you turn on that temperature, you dial it all the way up, you're going to get gibberish.
The other thing with LLMs, they've literally read the kitchen sink. It's not just literature, they read code. So a lot of times, if I turn up the temperature and I'm prompting it, all of a sudden it's just all this gibberish code that comes out of it. So that just shows you that it has no memory.
Joanna: I think that's definitely one of the reasons why the legal cases are so complicated and why people actually need to have some technical idea. It's not just a case of like copying and pasting.
Let's talk more about your creative process. So you're a discovery writer, which I love, although you have given tips for outlining in your books. Can you tell us—
How does your creative process work with AI? Are you just writing a prompt and then hitting publish?
Rachelle: Oh, definitely not.
I think the first time I got on ChatGPT, and I'm sure every one of you guys have done it, you said, “Write me a novel.” Then ChatGPT wrote a 200-word story about some rabbit jumping across a meadow, and it might have seen a turtle, and it's like a kid story. So it's interesting, and it's fun.
I think today, they probably won't do any of that because they put some processing in where it will probably say, “Please give me enough detail.” At the very beginning, it would happily go off and write this little fanciful story.
So getting back to, yes, I'm a discovery writer, but I think I have also learned about story structure. So very early in writing, I realized that if I just sat there and meandered around with my character, we could do all these interesting things, but it would not be telling a story.
A story has to have some kind of meaning behind it. So it's characters, they're going through actions, they're experiencing things, but there needs to be an emotional meaning behind it or something where readers want to find out what happens next.
So I did study story structure. I think I read Larry Brooks's book on story engineering, so I know about the inciting incident, and the progressive complications, and there's like this midpoint review. So you kind of have to have those things in the back of your mind.
AI actually does not know all this. The other thing most of you've probably tried is if you type in what you want the AI to do for the story, it takes the most direct point.
So like for romance, this really doesn't work because the romance thrives off conflict. It means there's attraction, and then there's this push and pull of, okay, I'm really attracted to this guy, but he's got some things that just doesn't work.
So it's the push and pull between the attraction and the conflict and two people are working things out. Both of them are flawed, but we believe in redemption, and we believe that everybody deserves to be loved. So the reader is really looking for how this is going to work out.
Well, the AI would just say, okay, so we talked about it, and then happily together we can face these things. It's really so innocent. It's like, “Oh, well, why don't we just talk it out? Then they can walk hand in hand and face the future with determination.”
Joanna: You know that's a ChatGPT story!
Rachelle: Of course.
Joanna: What are some of the ways you do use [ChatGPT] in your creative process?
Rachelle: Well, actually, every book I've written with the assistance of AI, I have done something different. That's because the tools change so fast. So I think at the beginning with ChatGPT, I was just asking it questions about, “Oh, let's make up some mythological figures that can do this or that, or some magic.”
I was sort of using it like a search engine, which it's not because it's making stuff up. I was just heightening descriptions and things like that.
So I think I talked about that in my first book, Love by the Prompt, which was basically just brainstorming and asking it, “Give me premises for a romance,” or, “Give me an enemies to lovers story.” So it was doing that.
At that point, it couldn't write more than 300 words or so. So we weren't really using it to write prose, we were using it maybe to enhance your descriptions or bring in things that you didn't think about.
The speed of AI went so fast, so by the time we were into summer when I wrote the AI Author's Journal, we were actually writing scenes. The way we were writing the scenes is we would list out the scene beats.
So these are just very basic actions of, “they walked down the street,” “there was a gunfight going on,” “there was a sheriff that came in.” So basic beats. We were doing that, and then laying that out and feeding it to the AI so that the AI would kind of fill it in.
So you're really leading it like a horse, like a horse to waters. Like, “Come on this way. Okay, now you're going to do that.” It was really funny to see what it would do in between.
I happen to like hallucinations. I think a lot of authors don't like it.
I really get a crack when it goes, what they call, off the rails. I'm like, oh, really? Okay, this is funny.
So that's how I was using it. It wasn't like this prescriptive thing where I already knew like beginning to end, and I'm going to lay it all out, and then push a button, and this is going to go through.
It doesn't listen to you anyway, so you're not going to be able to. Even if you're an outliner, and you have an 80-page outline and you've got everything listed.
I should say, you can make it listen to you by dialing the temperature down and using one of the more boring models. I don't think you're going to like what comes out because it will be very concise and succinct. They would just literally stick to your beats like glue.
It's not expanding from it, so then why bother have AI write it. At the same time, if you turn the temperature up, it might deviate, and it might deviate in really fun ways. Or it might be like, no, this is not what I want you to do, and it's already solved the problem by chapter two.
Joanna: Yes, and I think the temperature dial, as you mentioned, that's really only available if you go through more like the Playground options.
If people are just using ChatGPT, for example, there is no particular temperature dial in that.
Rachelle: There isn't. It's really interesting now because they give you access to the latest 4.0, as well as 4 and 3.5. If you really want some of the more quirky stuff, you need to go back to 3.5.
It's, in a sense, much more innocent. It will just happily go off and do something. Whereas 4.0, I've noticed they've made it more, what they call, safe.
It tends to feel more like business writing a lot more because what 4.0 will tend to do is whatever you give it, it's going to make a bold heading, and then it will give you some bullets, and then it's another bold heading. It's like okay, so you just summarized my scene brief, and you didn't put anything creative in between.
That's what brings me to Claude. I really love Claude. Claude is the other chat. So if you're beginning, I think most people say, well, we've got to get ChatGPT.
With ChatGPT, I think because it's more structured for business, it's much better at writing the scene briefs and the outlines.
It will stick to the topic, so if you wanted to outline so for nonfiction, especially—and I think Gemini works good for that, too—is that it will stick to the outline. Then you can work with it and say, “Okay, I'm going to write a nonfiction book about decluttering,” and it will help you stick to it.
Whereas Claude, I think is a little bit more freeform. With old Claude 2, it might balk and say just, “I do not feel comfortable being judgey about somebody's hoarding problems. I think with the new Claude 3, they've loosened that a bit, and so it will be more creative, but it may be less structured.
So I think ChatGPT, you can use it for structuring and writing your outlines, and even your scene briefs or chapter briefs. What we talk about when we talk about scene briefs is you need to give the AI a lot more information.
Just telling it, “Write me a scene of a cute meet between a cowboy and a waitress,” it gives it too much leeway. So a scene brief basically is a piece of information, and we call this mega prompting, but we're giving it information of the characters in the scene, the settings of the scene, and then the beats.
What's going to happen first, second, third? What's the inciting incident? What are the progressive complications? I'm using the story grids way of developing scene, so you have the progressive complications.
Then you have some kind of crisis because there has to be something to motivate your protagonist or to challenge your protagonist, and then some kind of decision where that's made to move this thing forward.
So if you only have a scene that only has beats and there's no sort of story element in it, then it's not going to work. So that's why you have to do a lot of leading.
Joanna: It's interesting. You mentioned leading there, and also the different personalities of the models, and also, the fun. I mean—
I feel like it's a fun back-and-forth process.
It's like I might ask Chat for a list of things that might go wrong in this particular situation or places where I could set a scene.
I think I use ChatGPT for a lot of lists of options, and also marketing. I think it's very good on marketing copy. Then, as you say, with Claude, I use what I think you call completion prompting. I might upload what I've written so far, and then say, “Okay, what are 10 ways this scene could continue?” and it will help in in that way.
So I think it's being more fluid almost, isn't it? Going backwards and forwards, and you have ideas, it has ideas, that kind of thing.
Rachelle: I've discovered I like Claude Sonnet the best because Sonnet will actually write. Like if you go through a Workbench or Playground type of thing, and I go through Future Fiction Academy's Rexy, where I get to specify every parameter, including the length of the output.
So with Sonnet, we always say, “Write a 3000-word scene.” Some people used to say 10,000, hoping ChatGPT would do it. Well, it doesn't work that way.
They have a parameter called max-length that they've already programmed into chat. You don't know what it is, but it's probably not going to be that long because you're sharing the chat with so many other people. You're doing a flat fee, and they're paying by the token.
When you go into Playgrounds, or through Rexy, you can special specify a max length. Like I said in the book, all of them, even the million context windows, they may have 100,000-200,000 tokens that you can feed in, the maximum output is 4096 tokens, which is roughly around 3000 words.
So some of them are just like the C students. You tell them do 3000 words, they do 500-700. With Sonnet, I found, and Haiku, will gladly go up to your limit.
If you didn't give it enough information to prompt, it'll just kind of get repetitive and have your character doing the same thing over and over in different ways, but that's your fault.
Joanna: I think, again, this is really important. You're still not just copying and pasting that scene, right? You're not taking that scene out of Haiku or Sonnet and then pasting that and then publishing it.
So just explain—
How are you leading the AI? How are you editing?
I still think people are afraid that we're just going to lose our creativity and the AI will do all the writing, whereas that's not really what's happening.
Rachelle: First, I just want to say there is no wrong way to use AI. I know everybody's process is different.
So there are authors who spend a lot of time with their outline, and whether they're using ChatGPT or they're just working on it by themselves, everything is going through this person's filter, this person's creativity.
So even if someone works a long outline, and then tells the AI, “Write these scene beats, write what I just gave you,” that author has put in all those scene beats. That author has said, “This is the emotion I want in the scene.” That author has said, “This is what's going to happen.”
So even the most prescriptive author that architects it from the beginning to the end, that person has put themselves into that story.
It's not like AI is just going to write you a story.
The other thing I think people forget is that it's humans that tell stories because we're the ones with the emotions. When we see a list of things happening, a lot of it depends on the context.
So if, for example, you see a man punch out another man, if it's on the theater on the stage, you laugh, but if it's on the street right in front of you, you're like horrified. So these contexts are all happening emotionally in the human being.
AI will just describe, “Okay, this man punched the other one, and he hit his jaw, and the blood went flying.” It will describe the stuff, but the storyteller is putting the emotional context into that scene, and what the reader is going to feel is coming from the human.
Whether the AI writes the words or not, or even draws the cartoon or not, it's the medium of how you're communicating that story that's eliciting the emotion. So I think I don't worry whether you're a plotter or a pantser, it's more just believing that the story is coming from you.
Whether you dictated it, transcribed it, I just look at AI as it increases the accessibility of storytelling for people.
Maybe English is your second language or you're a visual person.
Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. I feel like because we describe ourselves as writers, and for a long time we've used this number of words written. You know, people will say, “Oh, I wrote 2000 words a day,” or, “I wrote 10,000 words today.” We've really viewed value of being a writer on how many words we write.
Therefore, I think people are struggling because if you can generate 3000 words with one prompt from an AI—and that's where we are now, I mean, goodness knows where it will be in a year or two. I think I did, and maybe other people, are struggling with this question of—
What is our value if it's not generating words? So how do you see that question?
Rachelle: I think your value is making sure those words are words that people want to read. That's the same with whether you're doing your messy draft or not too. I mean, before AI, I wrote 90 books. I can write 50,000 words in two weeks. I've done all the NaNoWriMos and all that.
So the thing is, you as the creative person, you can generate the words, but it may not be words anyone wants to read, maybe you don't even want to read it. So you're also the curator of those words.
Basically, it still comes down to you're the storyteller. You have to have a story worth telling.
I mean, you don't want to just report what you see without putting meaning into it. The meaning into it is what gives you the story, because ultimately, the story is a human to human communication.
Whether I'm talking to you face to face and telling you what happened to me last Friday, or I'm communicating through a novel, it really is still, like I would say, heart to heart. It will come from my heart, but when you read it, it's going through your heart.
Like I said, the AI can throw out a lot of words, and some of the time I have to admit, I don't even read what it gives me. Sometimes I ask it for ideas, and then I do exactly what it doesn't say to do. Or it can spark something totally opposite or just unrelated.
You're a discovery writer, right? So you know that ideas don't come until you start moving. It's like getting on a bicycle. So before I even sit down to write a scene, I could say, “Oh, this is what's going to happen. I think I know what's going to happen,” but when I start writing it, it's like something else just pops into my mind and it deviates.
Joanna: I totally agree. So this is the point.
We are the ones with the creative drive. We have the ideas, we have the prompts, we have the story; we have the emotion. The AI tools, they're just tools.
Someone has asked me that—
They worry that they might not be able to find their voice if they start writing with AI. Or that they might somehow lose creativity in some way. What do you think about that?
Rachelle: I actually think it's valid. I've been writing, oh, I don't know, 12/13 years, and you develop the voice by just writing, free writing. So I think it is valid because if I read too much AI, I find myself kind of writing like them, like using some of the same phrases.
So we're sponges, we absorb what we read. I mean, that's how we developed our voice. We read lots of books, right? You probably have your favorite authors, or if you're like me, I read across multiple genres. I love everything I read.
We're like humans, sponges. The LLM is just like us. I mean, if you noticed ChatGPT, it read a lot of fanfiction. So it has a lot of the same names that it gives and the same things that are always happening, and it's only because it's read all these fanfiction sites. So it tends to write like fanfiction.
So I worry about that too. I look at it, and I say, “Oh, I don't want to sound like ChatGPT,” and if I keep reading what it writes, sometimes I catch myself.
Joanna: That's interesting. It's funny, I haven't felt that at all. I feel like this comes down to being confident in your voice.
I think when we've been writing as long as we have, we kind of know when it sounds like us.
So if I read something, I'll be like, that doesn't sound like me, so maybe I didn't write that, or I don't know where that's come from. So certainly in my editing process, I edit pretty hard in order to bring my voice.
I really think that maybe people will just learn to write in a different way. In that we wrote with the Internet, so we've had the internet, and we have learned and written in that particular way.
People growing up now, this is now free, kids at school are going to use these tools. So they will probably just learn in a different way.
I still think it comes down to what you, as a creator, have as your creative drive.
I think that is really particular to you.
Rachelle: Right, and actually, I think we don't have to worry as much going forward. As we've seen, Claude Haiku, Sonnet, and Opus, they write differently. I think a lot of what we think is AI is from ChatGPT 3.5, because that was the first one that came out.
You're right, the kids that are growing up today, they're going to be reading as much AI-generated content, if not more, than the classics. Though you could always go back and read the classics, too.
Joanna: So there's definitely the responsibility of the creator. I guess we're saying, and that I'd say, I'm an AI-assisted artisan author. So it's still my work, it's what I want to do.
“In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work which is computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken.”
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, Section 9, 3
In the US, you have quite a lot of copyright rulings that still haven't happened around that. So how do you think about that in the US?
Rachelle: Well, first of all, I'm not a lawyer. So I don't know what the legal things are. I think the US, and this is what I think, they think there has to be some kind of human touch in it. So they're trying to measure how much of the human touch.
An analogy is like taking a picture. I think immediately people probably thought, “Oh, well, all you did was click the button, and you took a picture,” but the copyright office ruled that, “Oh, but you had to set up the shot. You had to adjust the lighting. You had to catch it at the right moment.”
So the camera didn't take the picture by itself—well, actually, you can set the camera to take pictures, and nowadays, you might have a video camera that's just been watching something and AI can pick out the best shots.
At the time they did grant a copyright to photographs, the thinking was a human was behind it that pushed the button and it composed a shot. I actually think AI prompting is actually more work.
Everyone just thinks that you just push the button and out pops an article, and that's not the case.
I went to a seminar where one of the lawyers said, “Oh, well, it's all in the prompts. The originality is in the prompts,”
which does go back to that plagiarizing. If you copy and paste somebody's work into the prompt, you can get AI to spit that back out. That's on you because that was in the prompt, it wasn't AI's fault. So the lawyer said that, and believe me, all your prompts are stored somewhere.
I mean, they have not discarded any of the prompts. So he's saying that in the future, he thinks cases will be decided by looking at how creative the prompts were.
Joanna: That is really interesting. I totally agree, and it's one of my sort of red lines. I say to people:
Don't use other people's names or brands in your prompt, whether that's images or music or authors.
I can use my name in a prompt, but I'm not going to use your name, I'm not going to use Stephen King, I'm not going to use Dan Brown. I'm not even going to use dead authors because I want my own voice. So I think that's really important.
It is also interesting because in the early days—I say the early days early, like last year—I was still taking screenshots of prompts in case.
Rachelle: Like I've got to save these?
Joanna: Well, no. So that in case I had to prove that this was my own work. So I was keeping that, I took pictures of my edits, like I was quite paranoid last year. Now we're in mid-2024, I'm starting to relax a lot more.
Let's just think about what's happened. I mean, as we're speaking now, last week they released 4.0 Omni. We've had Google releasing Gemini 1.5, Microsoft has announced new PCs that will have AI in them. I mean, the pace is so fast now, and Apple's going to announce something soon.
How do you adjust to the pace of change?
Are you, as you said earlier, are you changing your process all the time? How do you stay focused, rather than getting sidetracked?
Rachelle: Well, it is harder to stay focused because there's always some new toy that comes out. Just yesterday, I got into the Hunch beta, which is basically a drag and drop prompt sequencing.
So you can put in context blocks, and then you can drag that context and feed it into these AI blocks and it does something to transform it. Then you can feed multiple context blocks into AI blocks, and multiple AI blocks into another one to aggregate the content, or you can split it out in different ways and use different LLMs for each output.
So yes, it's hard to stay focused. I think once I get into a story, I do focus on that story. Then I keep kind of an ear to the ground on what's going on.
So I joined the Future Fiction Academy because it's a group of people, Elizabeth Ann West, Steph Pajonas, and Leeland Artra, who they are all over the place looking at all this AI. They are also real writers because I knew them from indie publishing 10 years ago.
So they look at these tools and they're always thinking of new methods. It's not just them, it's the whole group in Future Fiction Academy. Somebody will say, “Oh, did you see this Hunch thing?”
So Hunch was brought in by somebody else who said, “I use this to sequence these prompts, and I wrote my scene briefs, and then I had five different LLMs write the scene, and then I'm going to look at them all and pick out the best ones.”
So by joining a group of active authors who are focused on their writing, because each one of these authors are still focused on their author career and not the AI.
AI is a means to an end
— not like the YouTubers where—and they have their uses too, but they are focused on the AI. So they're always looking at the new AI and how it came out. That's great to also subscribe to a few of their channels so you kind of know something's coming.
Also, you have to know, well, okay, I'm not going to distract myself with the new music stuff because I don't really use music in my work, but I know it's there type of thing.
Joanna: Well, what do you think's going happen next? I mean, how do you think things are going to change in the next year or two? I guess we're looking at maybe GPT 5, which might be another step up.
I guess some people think that that will just mean we can write books even faster. As you said, you were writing books pretty fast before, and romance authors are fast. So I don't really see it as a speed thing.
How do you think things will change, both creatively and in the business of being an author?
Rachelle: Well, it's hard to say. I mean, look at ChatGPT 3.5, now we're looking at it like training wheels. What we have today is Omni, and like you said, GPT-5 will come out. I don't really know, I just know that as long as these companies are fighting it out, we get access to the latest and greatest.
So I think I'm more worried about when the industry consolidates, and all the best writing tools, the AI that's able to not just spit out words, but the one that can analyze novels. Believe me, I'm sure these publishing companies already have it.
I have heard somebody say that Netflix actually has analyzed streaming behavior of their customers. So they know when the customers quit watching the video, they know when they rewound, and they know when they watched it all the way through without stopping.
So they've analyzed those story structures to come up with better stories. I'm pretty sure that anybody who owns a reading app knows this.
We buy a lot of books we never read, I mean, especially free books. You downloaded them, maybe opened into the first page, read the first page, and dropped it.
Those owners of those reading apps know full well which books have caught on, which books are the ones that it's 3am and you haven't stopped and you just keep going and going and going. So they have all that data.
So once they train their AI to recognize that kind of pattern—what kind of patterns of story, not just words, because right now, today's LLMs are just looking at word patterns.
We're looking at AI agents that can analyze the patterns of the story, like the rising action, the conflict and tension points, all of that. Then they can actually generate story, critique the story, and then match it to what readers' preferences are.
Then maybe we may just become providers of experiences, I suppose.
Joanna: I mean, let's fast forward. There's going to be perfect algorithmic fiction, you know. It'll be perfect, people will love it. They'll go and they'll get that, and that will be a lot of what people read. That's why I say to people —
You need to double down on being human, because you are not an algorithm, and I'm not an algorithm.
So I think that there's still a place for the human writer, which is flawed. We have flawed writing. So I think there's room for both.
Rachelle: That's the whole thing about romance, the characters are flawed, but they're still lovable.
Joanna: Yes, so let's hope we are!
Rachelle: It's going to be interesting. It's almost like the way with social media. They've done studies on dopamine hits, and so they made their things addictive so that you're always scrolling and scrolling and looking at the videos and hitting the likes. That's all these little shots of dopamine.
So they've done all that research on how human minds work to get you addicted to a platform. I wonder if the AI can also create books and stories that you just can't put down because it just kind of knows. It can individualize this for every reader. If your Kindle Library's as big as mine, it knows what I'm really interested in, and not what I say I'm interested in. It knows if I buy a book because I liked the author, but then I never read the books. It knows what you're really doing, and it can personalize that for you.
Joanna: Yes, well, we certainly live in interesting times. It's been so great to talk to you.
Tell people where they can find you and all your books online.
Rachelle: Well, I have a website, RachelleAyala.net, but you can just find me on Amazon. Just type in Rachelle Ayala and AI Author’s Journal or Romance In A Month, and then you'll find my nonfiction books. Then for the fiction books, I think type in Bad Boys For Hire, or something like that, and you'll find my fiction books.
Then I did recently start a new pen name using my real name, Clare Chu, C-L-A-R-E-C-H-U. This is much more AI. I decided to do these humorous guidebooks that are called Misguided Guides.
So my first book was Why Your Cat Is Plotting to Kill You. I made the cover with Midjourney, so I'm showing this to you on the screen.
Joanna: That's very cute. I think experimentation is fantastic, and you certainly do that. So thanks so much for your time, Rachelle. That was great.
Rachelle: Okay, sure. It was great being on. Thank you, Joanna.
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My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn [Updated]
Jan 01, 2024
Happy New Year 2024! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I measure it in years. At the end of each year, I make a photobook, and I publish an article here, which helps keep me […]
Review Of My 2023 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Dec 31, 2023
Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. In the intro, 2023 […]
The 15-Year Author Business Pivot With Joanna Penn
Dec 18, 2023
In this episode, I reflect on 15 years of TheCreative Penn, and outline how I will reposition myself for the next 15 years of being an author entrepreneur. In the intro, We used to do that [Seth Godin]; Penguin Random House has acquired Hay House [Publishing Perspectives]; Business for Authors; Your Author Business Plan; OpenAI […]
How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability In The Next Decade
Dec 11, 2023
How will changes to the way people search impact book discoverability? What can authors and publishers do to ensure their books are still found in the new form of generative AI search? While it's still early days for this technology, I share my thoughts in this article, with the hope that we can surf the […]
Publishing A Cookery Photo Book With Jane Dixon-Smith
Dec 04, 2023
Do you want to publish an image-heavy book like a cookbook? How can you navigate the challenges of photography, book design, and publishing choices to make the best product possible? Jane Dixon-Smith shares her lessons learned from her first cookbook. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's predictions about publishing [Daniel Greene]; Craig Mod talks about walking […]
Subscriptions And The Creator Economy With Michael Evans
Nov 27, 2023
How might subscriptions help expand your author business ecosystem? What are some tips on encouraging readers to buy direct? Why is the future looking positive for authors in the creator economy? Michael Evans gives his thoughts. In the intro, marketing for multi-genre authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Same as Ever: Timeless lessons on risk, opportunity, and […]
Starting A Second Career As An Author And Networking Tips With Patrick O’Donnell
Nov 20, 2023
How can you transition into being an author after a long-term career elsewhere? How can you adopt an attitude of service in order to build your network in an authentic manner? Patrick O'Donnell shares his tips. In the intro, Spotify subscribers in the US now have 15 hours of free audiobook listening [The Verge] — […]
The Mindset And Business Of Selling Books Direct With Russell Nohelty
Nov 13, 2023
How can you shift your mindset from catalog sales to selling direct? How can you reframe the direct author business model to take advantage of creative possibilities for different kinds of products and long-term marketing? Russell Nohelty gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, Top 10 tips for indie authors [Clare Lydon]; 10 […]
Pinterest For Book Marketing With Trona Freeman
Nov 06, 2023
How can using Pinterest more like a search engine help you sell more books? What are some of the ways to use Pinterest most effectively for book marketing? Trona Freeman gives her tips. In the intro, KDP announce an Invite-Only KDP Beta for Audiobooks; How to Double Down on Being Human: 5 Ways to Stand […]
Managing Your Author Business Over The Long Term With Tracy Cooper-Posey
Oct 30, 2023
How can you reinvigorate your writing process, breathe life into your backlist, and prepare your author business for the rollercoaster that is publishing? Tracy Cooper-Posey gives her tips. In the intro, Authors Guild results [The Hotsheet]; more Promo Stacks with Written Word Media; Amazon's robot [BBC]; Amazon's generative image AI for products [Venture Beat]; Shutterstock's […]
Stop Trying To Do Everything With Patricia McLinn
Oct 23, 2023
How do you keep up with everything you need to do as your author business grows? How do you decide what to focus on as the industry changes — and you change, too? Patricia McLinn discusses her challenges with a big backlist of books and a mature indie author business. In the intro, Self-publishing's ongoing […]
Writing The Soul Of Place With Linda Lappin
Oct 16, 2023
What is soul of place or genius loci and how can you write it in a more immersive way in your books? How can you discover it closer to home, as well as write real settings more authentically, and invent it for your fiction? Linda Lappin gives some tips in this interview. In the intro, […]
Let Your Dark Horse Run. Writing The Shadow With Joanna Penn
Oct 13, 2023
How can you let your creative dark horse run? What is the Shadow — and why explore your Shadow side? This episode features excerpted chapters from the audiobook of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, written and narrated by Joanna Penn, available on Kickstarter until 25 October 2023: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook (link will redirect […]
Writing Faster Without Burning Out With LA Witt
Oct 09, 2023
How can you establish a creative routine that enables you to write the books you want to write without burning out? How can you balance a sustainable work ethic as an author as well as spending time away from the desk. LA Witt talks about her strategies. In the intro, Spotify introduces 15 hours of […]
As much as we try to plan for things, sometimes life happens and we have to adapt to a new situation. Jessie Kwak talks about adapting to life as a freelance writer and author after being injured, and her tips for managing work and energy. In the intro, I mention Accessibility for All, the interview […]
Writing And Publishing A High Quality Photo Book With Jeremy Bassetti
Sep 25, 2023
How can you create a high-quality photo book and publish it on Kickstarter? How do you market a beautiful, high-value book? Jeremy Bassetti talks about his photo book project, Hill of the Skull. In the intro, Slow release book strategies [ALLi]; Seth Godin on how he is using ChatGPT; Consultants using AI worked faster and […]
Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur
Sep 18, 2023
In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 12 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. In the intro, Finding readers [ALLi blog]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. […]
Writing And Producing Audio Drama With Joanne Phillips
Sep 11, 2023
What's the difference between an audio book and an audio drama? What are the steps to write a script and produce it? Joanne Phillips gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon KDP's new AI content guidelines; AI at the heart of what Amazon does [The Verge]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; 1000 Libraries Kickstarter; Today's show […]
Using AI Images In Your Book Cover Design Process With Damon Freeman
Sep 07, 2023
How can you expand the possibilities of book cover images with AI? What are some of the controversies and how can authors and designers work together with AI tools to create original design? Book cover designer Damon Freeman discusses his views. There are lots of links in the show notes below to specific resources, but […]
Producing Visual, High Quality Books, Thinking Differently, and Kickstarter Lessons With Holger Nils Pohl
Sep 04, 2023
How might thinking differently help you create clarity in our noisy world? How can you produce a high-quality print book — and successfully fund it on Kickstarter? Holger Nils Pohl discusses these things and more. In the intro, Copyright in an age of AI [Self Publishing Advice, Monica Leonelle, Ars Technica, The Verge, The Atlantic; […]
Writing Poetry In The Dark With Stephanie Wytovich
Aug 28, 2023
How can you stop self-censoring your writing and share the deepest aspects of yourself with your readers? How can you break poetry out of the restraints that many try to put upon it? Stephanie Wytovich talks about these things and more. In the intro, 5 trends that are shifting the future of publishing with Monica […]
Build A Successful Author Business For The Long Term With Joe Solari
Aug 21, 2023
How can you build an author business for the long term, and not just for the launch of one book? How do you ensure secure cash flow and profits, instead of focusing on short-term spike sales? Joe Solari discusses key aspects of your author business. In the intro, Kobo Plus expands to audiobooks in Australia […]
Publishing Books For Children And Profitable School Visits With Tonya Ellis
Aug 14, 2023
How can you create a book series that children love — and that you can expand into multiple streams of income? How can you offer a fantastic experience to schools — and get paid well for your time? Tonya Duncan Ellis gives her tips. In the intro, investment firm KKR will buy Simon & Schuster […]
How AI Tools Are Useful For Writers With Disabilities And Health Issues With S.J. Pajonas
Aug 10, 2023
How can AI tools help authors who struggle with energy and time because of disability, chronic pain, health conditions, post-viral fatigue, or other unavoidable life issues? Steph Pajonas explains why AI is important for accessibility and more. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think […]
The Marketing Mind Shift And The Power Of Ad Stacking With Ricci Wolman
Aug 07, 2023
How can you shift your mindset in order to reach more readers with your books? How can you leverage the tools available for authors to sell more copies? Ricci Wolman from Written Word Media gives her tips. In the intro, The Hotsheet useful newsletter; Book publishing is broken; In the US, the Federal Trade Commission […]
Writing Fast, Collaboration, And Author Mindset With Daniel Willcocks
Jul 31, 2023
How can you write fast but also make your creative process sustainable for the long term? How can you collaborate effectively with other authors in your genre? Dan Willcocks talks about his creative and business approach. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires SelfPubBookCovers; Different types of creative energy [Self Publishing Advice]; Twitter becomes X [The Verge]; […]
Writing From Your Shadow Side With Michaelbrent Collings
Jul 24, 2023
How can you use what you're scared of to write better stories that resonate with readers? How can you acknowledge your shadow side and bring aspects of it into the light in a healthy way that serves you and your customers? Michaelbrent Collings talks about his experiences — and you can do my Shadow Survey […]
Your Publishing Options With Rachael Herron
Jul 17, 2023
What are the pros and cons of traditional publishing vs self-publishing? How can you combine multiple options for a more creatively satisfying — and profitable — author career? Rachael Herron gives her tips. In the intro, Power Thesaurus and editing tips for audio; How Writers Fail — Kris Rusch; Finishing energy; Sidekick for Shopify; Shadow […]
Writing Tips From The Movies With John Gaspard
Jul 10, 2023
How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast […]
9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors And The Publishing Industry. An Update With Joanna Penn And Nick Thacker
Jul 03, 2023
Four years ago, in July 2019, I put out a podcast episode that went through the 9 disruptions I saw coming for authors and publishing in the next decade. It turns out that most are happening faster than even I expected. In this episode, Nick Thacker and I discuss some of the main points. In […]
Using Sudowrite For Writing Fiction With Amit Gupta
Jun 29, 2023
How can fiction authors use Sudowrite to assist with writing tasks they need help with? What functionality does Sudowrite have that will be useful to different types of writers? Amit Gupta gives his tips in this interview. I use and recommend Sudowrite as part of my creative process. You can try Sudowrite through my affiliate […]
The Craft And Business Of Writing Non-Fiction Books With Stephanie Chandler
Jun 26, 2023
How can you stand out in a crowded market of non-fiction books? How can you build a business around your central topic? How can you deal with failure to move on to success? Stephanie Chandler shares her experience and tips. In the intro, HarperCollins and KKR make bids for Simon & Schuster [The Hotsheet]; more […]
How Authors Can Use Bookfunnel To Reach Readers And Sell Direct With Damon Courtney
Jun 18, 2023
How can Bookfunnel help authors reach more readers, sell more books, and sell direct? Damon Courtney outlines features of Bookfunnel that you might not know about. In the intro, Hello Books and Written Word Media have joined forces for promo stacking; Call to Action (CTA) tips [ALLi]; my free Author Blueprint; Bundle for writers [Storybundle]. […]
Novel Marketing And Christian Publishing With Thomas Umstattd Jr.
Jun 12, 2023
What are some of the most effective ways to market your book? What strategies have remained the same despite the rise of new tactics? What are the best ways to reach a Christian audience? Thomas Umstattd Jr. gives plenty of tips in this interview. In the intro, Freedom, fame, or fortune — what do you […]
Writing Your Transcendent Change: Memoir With Marion Roach Smith
Jun 05, 2023
Memoir can be one of the most challenging forms to write, but it can also be the most rewarding. Marion Roach Smith talks about facing your fears, as well as giving practical tips on structuring and writing your memoir. In the intro, Amazon's category changes [KDP Help; Kindlepreneur; Publisher Rocket]; Book description generation with AI; […]
Crafting Your Novel’s Key Moments With John Matthew Fox
May 29, 2023
What are the crucial linchpin moments in your novel and how can you keep a reader turning the pages? John Fox gives fiction writing tips in this interview. In the intro, writing and publishing across multiple genres [Ask ALLi]; Pilgrimage and solo walking [Women Who Walk]; My live webinars on using AI tools as an […]
Writing Novels Inspired By Place With Tony Park
May 22, 2023
How can we write about places that inspire us in an authentic way even when they are not our own country? Tony Park gives his tips for writing setting, and also outlines how his publishing experience has changed over the last two decades. In the intro, KDP printing costs are changing from 20 June; plus, […]
Making Art From Life. Mental Health For Writers With Toby Neal
May 15, 2023
What are some of the common mental health issues that writers face? How can we use writing to help us process our problems, and turn our life into art through our books? Author and mental health therapist Toby Neal shares her thoughts and tips. It's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK with a […]
Intentionality, Beauty, and Authorship. Co-Writing With AI With Stephen Marche
May 12, 2023
AI tools can generate words, but the human intention behind it, as well as the skill of the author, drives the machine. Stephen Marche talks about the creative process behind Death of an Author, 95% written by AI, out now from Pushkin Industries. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain […]
Generative AI And The Indie Author Community With Michael Anderle And Dan Wood
May 07, 2023
What are the implications of generative AI for the indie author community? How can we make choices for our own creative business while respecting the decisions of others? Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) and Michael Anderle (20BooksTo50K, LMBPN) and I discuss our recommendations for the way forward. In the intro, Ingram Spark offers free title setup and […]
The AI-Assisted Artisan Author With Joanna Penn
May 05, 2023
What is the AI-Assisted Artisan Author? How can we use AI tools in our creative and business processes while still keeping our humanity at the core of our books? As generative AI development continues apace and new possibilities emerge every week, the focus of AI discussions in the author community has been centered around productivity […]
Excellent Advice For Living With Kevin Kelly
May 01, 2023
How can we build a creative life based on following our curiosity? What are some important attitudes to hold that will help us with a sustainable life and career? Kevin Kelly shares some Excellent Advice for Living. In the intro, author newsletter tips [BookBub]; Mark Dawson's 20+ year writing journey; Thoughts on 20Books Seville and […]
Book Marketing: How To Get Publicity For Your Book With Halima Khatun
Apr 24, 2023
How can publicity form part of your book marketing strategy? How can you research the best media and craft a pitch or a press release that might get you and your book some attention? Why is publicity still useful in an age of pay-per-click direct advertising? Halima Khatun shares her valuable tips and experience. In […]
The Challenges Of Small Press Publishing With Jon Barton
Apr 17, 2023
What are the most important aspects of becoming a successful publisher? Jon Barton talks about his lessons learned and how to avoid the pitfalls. In the intro, Amazon AWS Bedrock for generative AI; Impromptu: Amplifying our Humanity Through AI by Reid Hoffman and co-written with GPT4; reflections on the fantastic 20BooksSpain Seville conference; Ideas and […]
How To Use ProWritingAid To Improve Your Writing With Chris Banks
Apr 14, 2023
You cannot see many of the problems with your own writing, as you are so close to the manuscript. ProWritingAid can help you self-edit your work before you take it on to a human editor, so they can focus on the bigger issues. In this episode, Chris Banks, the CEO of ProWritingAid talks about how […]
Writing Nature Memoir With Merryn Glover
Apr 10, 2023
How can we bring a place alive in our writing? How can we tackle the challenges of writing different types of books at different times in our writing career? Merryn Glover talks about her experience in this episode. In the intro, Kobo launches Kobo Plus in the US and UK; Amazon is closing Book Depository; […]
Legal Aspects Of Generative AI And Copyright With Kathryn Goldman
Apr 02, 2023
As generative AI tools continue to expand the possibilities for creators, what does this mean for aspects of copyright? Intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman, talks about the possible ramifications. In the intro, Ben's Bites newsletter, Microsoft Co-Pilot for Office tools [The Verge]; Canva Create AI-powered design tools; Adobe Firefly for generative images; OpenAI ChatGPT Plugins […]
Lessons Learned And Tips From Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign
Mar 27, 2023
My Kickstarter campaign for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, funded within minutes and raised over £26,000 (over US$31,000) for a niche book in a new market. In this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips for a successful campaign. In the intro, I mention the 6 Figure Author Podcast, The Writers Well Podcast, and Reid […]
Prolific Writing, Diversification, And Using Emerging Technologies With Joseph Nassise
Mar 20, 2023
If you want a long-term successful career as an author, you need to learn the craft and the business of writing. Joseph Nassise talks about his writing process, how he diversifies his business across different publishers, different products, and different technologies, as well as how he is embracing new options for his books. In the […]
Writing Fiction With Sudowrite With Leanne Leeds
Mar 17, 2023
We all use tools to help us improve our skills, and in this episode, Leanne Leeds explains how she uses the generative AI tool, Sudowrite, to write better books and serve her readership more effectively. In the intro, OpenAI launches GPT4, and how it can be used for accessibility with Be My Eyes. Other tools […]
Content For Everyone: Accessibility For Authors With Jeff Adams
Mar 13, 2023
Writers and readers are a diverse bunch, and we all want to do our best to make sure our content is accessible to all. But how do we do that when it seems like a huge (and time-consuming) challenge for an individual creator? Jeff Adams gives some tips for getting started. In the intro, making […]
Writing And Investing For A Long Term Indie Author Career With Lindsay Buroker
Mar 06, 2023
What are the core fundamentals of a successful independent author business? How can you focus on writing, as well as sell more books, and stay healthy? Prolific fantasy author Lindsay Buroker shares her tips. In the intro, YouTube gets into audio-only podcasts; Seth Godin's book marketing for The Song of Significance; How to make more […]
How To Build A Seven Figure Book Business Selling Direct To Readers With Pierre Jeanty
Feb 27, 2023
Write and publish what you want, get paid every day for your books, and control your customer data and relationships. It's possible if you sell direct, as Pierre Jeanty talks about in this interview. In the intro, the author income survey [ALLi]; publishing clauses to avoid [Writer Unboxed; Writer Beware]; copyright registration for AI-assisted comic […]
The Tsunami Of Crap, Misinformation, And Responsible Use Of AI With Tim Boucher
Feb 24, 2023
After many years of people saying, “AI can never be creative, AI could never write fiction (i.e. make things up), it's now evident that the generative AI tools make a lot up — and we need to be aware of the potential ramifications. How can we use the tools to achieve our creative purpose in […]
Co-Writing In A Shared Universe And Changing Indie Business Models With Martha Carr
Feb 20, 2023
How can you create a universe big enough for multiple series? How can you co-write successfully? How can you pivot your business model to achieve your creative, financial, and lifestyle goals? Martha Carr talks about these things and more. In the intro, Simon & Schuster is back up for sale [Reuters, Episode 662 with Jane […]
Book Marketing Mindset, Ideas, And Ambition With Honoree Corder
Feb 13, 2023
How can you embrace book marketing as a creative part of your author business? How can you effectively market your backlist over time? How can you tap into ambition and drive your author business onward and upward? Honoree Corder talks about all this and more. In the intro, Draft2Digital add a new library marketplace [D2D]; […]
Writing Choctaw Characters And Diversity In Fiction With Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer
Feb 06, 2023
Who are the Choctaw people and how can authors write authentic Native Americans in their books? How can we research diverse characters and include a diverse cast without worrying about cancel culture? Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer talks about how her Choctaw heritage influences her books. In the intro, the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is done — thanks to […]
The Empowerment Of Selling Books Direct To Your Readers With Steve Pieper
Jan 30, 2023
What are the benefits of selling direct? Why might using your face to advertise your books be a good idea? What might be the future of selling direct? Steve Pieper talks about these things and more. In the intro, ACX lowering audiobook prices, Chokepoint Capitalism, Audiblegate, Copyright valuation [Dean Wesley Smith]; courses on copyright; Happy […]
Writing Travel Memoir, Fear Of Judgment, Fear Of Failure, And Journaling With J.F. Penn
Jan 28, 2023
What do you need to consider when writing travel memoir? How fear of judgment and fear of failure are real issues even for established authors, and more in these selected excerpts from interviews with J.F. Penn around Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. In this episode, I talk about: I have a […]
The Importance Of Confident Creative Direction, Voice, And Taste, In Generative AI Art With Oliver Altair
Jan 26, 2023
How can you use AI tools to ethically and responsibly create in whatever sphere you love? What are some of the tools and why are creative direction, voice, and taste, so important? I discuss these issues and more in a solo introduction and an interview with Oliver Altair. In the first 28 mins of the […]
Multi-Six Figure Book Sales And The Power Of Daily Habits With Marc Reklau
Jan 23, 2023
How can small, daily habits make you more successful as an author? How can you use the 80/20 rule in your author business? How can you create multiple streams of income when you sell mostly print? Marc Reklau shares his tips in the interview. In the intro, my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage is live!; Spotify's promotion […]
Intuitive Writing And Book Marketing With Becca Syme
Jan 16, 2023
Do you sometimes just ‘know' when a story is right? Does something ‘click' during the writing process and suddenly things make sense? Do you lean into your curiosity and emotion when it comes to writing and marketing? If yes, you might be an intuitive writer, as Becca Syme explains in this interview. In the intro, […]
How To (Finally) Finish Your Book With Roz Morris
Jan 09, 2023
What are the most common reasons why writers don't finish their books —and how can you overcome them in order to finish yours this year? Roz Morris gives practical writing and mindset tips. In the intro, Spotify promo codes [FindawayVoices]; Rachael Herron's money episode [How Do You Write?]; Changes at Amazon [Kris Writes, BBC]; AI […]
How To Use Paid Advertising As Part Of Your Book Marketing With Mark Dawson
Jan 06, 2023
How can you use paid advertising as part of your book marketing strategy? How can you reach more readers and sell more books in the year ahead? Mark Dawson provides strategies and tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing trends for 2023 [Written Word Media]; Apple AI narration; ChatGPT into Bing [The Verge]; Comments […]
My 2023 Creative and Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2023
Happy New Year 2023! I am more excited than ever this year about the books I want to write and publish. I've had a difficult few years (haven't we all?!) but now I'm ready to create at full throttle in 2023, aided by the incredible AI-powered tools emerging for writers. Here's an overview of my […]
Review Of My 2022 Creative Business Goals
Dec 30, 2022
Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals, and leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? You can read my 2022 goals here and I reflect on what I […]
What Do You Need To Quit? With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross
Dec 26, 2022
“If you just keep writing/querying/marketing/etc you will eventually be successful. Just don't give up.” We've all heard a variation of this, but what if it isn't true? When is quitting worthwhile? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke and give examples of what they […]
Changes In Publishing With Jane Friedman
Dec 19, 2022
What has changed in the publishing industry over the last few years? What can authors learn from the DOJ vs PRH court case? How can mid-list authors thrive in uncertain times? Jane Friedman talks about these things and more. In the intro, USA Today list is on indefinite hiatus [US News]; Paid for bestseller list; […]
Choosing Your Route To Publication With Barnaby Jameson
Dec 12, 2022
Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing. In the intro, Draft2Digital distributing to Smashwords store [D2D], expansion of Google Play Books auto-narration into more countries, […]
Co-writing Fiction With Generative AI With Charlene Putney
Dec 09, 2022
How can authors use generative AI as a co-writing tool? How can creatives approach AI possibilities with curiosity rather than fear? Charlene Putney talks about writing with LAIKA. In the intro, ChatGPT, thoughts on the GitHub Co-Pilot case [WIRED]; and why digital abundance is an opportunity for curious creatives, not a threat. I also mention […]
Pivoting Genres And Mindset Tips For Success With Dan Padavona
Dec 05, 2022
If you're not making the money you expected from your books, how can you pivot genres in order to write what you enjoy AND make a living? How can you change your mindset to one of creative abundance and productivity? Dan Padavona talks about these topics and more. In the intro, publishing year in review […]
Writing Tips: The Anatomy Of Genres With John Truby
Nov 28, 2022
What is genre, and how can transcending it improve your fiction? How can you effectively write cross genre? John Truby gives an overview of the Anatomy of Genres. In the intro, the PRH acquisition of S&S is over [The Guardian]; Amazon Advertising Everywhere [Vox]; Spotify expands audiobooks to more markets [TechCrunch]; Plus, 20BooksVegas recordings; Machines […]
How can we shift our mindset to thinking about a long-term creative career? What can we do now that will make our future selves happy? Dorie Clark gives some ideas for playing the long game. In the intro, sell books directly on TikTok Shop [The Guardian]; Plan for author success in 2023 [K-lytics webinar, 1 […]
Using Generative AI For Digital Collectibles And NFTs With J. Thorn
Nov 18, 2022
How can generative AI tools augment and amplify your creativity? How can digital originals/collectibles (NFTs) add value to authors and readers? In the intro, my solo episode on Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash: NFTs for Authors (also in video); Midjourney v4 [Ars Technica]; Deviant Art launches their own generative AI tool [Engadget]; Rumors of GPT-4 […]
5 Steps To Author Success With Rachel McLean
Nov 14, 2022
How can you find the intersection between what the market wants and what you love to read? How can you strategically seed book sales to improve your marketing? Rachel McLean talks about her 5 steps to indie author success. In the intro, how to predict and profit from publishing trends [ALLi blog]; my live, in-person […]
Self-Publishing LaunchPad With James Blatch
Nov 09, 2022
What are some of the fundamentals behind self-publishing success? James Blatch shares tips and insights. James Blatch is a historical military thriller author. He’s also the co-founder of Self-Publishing Formula, Fuse Books, Hello Books, and the co-host of The Self-Publishing Show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are […]
Writing And Marketing Diverse Books For Children With Ada-Ari
Nov 07, 2022
How can you create an ecosystem of children's books around a central idea? How can you market books for children? Ada-Ari talks about how she writes, publishes and markets her children's books based on African folk tales and African languages in the USA. In the intro, Court blocks the PRH S&S merger [PublishersWeekly]; Spoken Word […]
Using Tropes To Strengthen Your Fiction With Jennifer Hilt
Oct 31, 2022
What are tropes and how can you use them to strengthen your fiction? What are some examples of horror tropes, in particular? With Jennifer Hilt. In the intro, Why book sales are down and what to do about it [6 Figure Authors]; Undisruptible: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention for Individuals, Organisations, and Life by Aidan […]
What do you need in the beginning of your novel so your reader buys your book? Shane Millar shares tips for writing brilliant beginnings, regardless of your genre. In the intro, trends in what publishers want at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives] Adobe incorporating AI-generation alongside a Content Authenticity Initiative [Adobe blog]; Bertelsmann-owned venture capital […]
How Creativity Rules the World With Maria Brito
Oct 17, 2022
How does curiosity fuel creativity? How can we balance consumption and creation in an ever-busier digital life? How can you break out of the myth of the ‘starving artist'? Maria Brito talks about How Creativity Rules the World. In the intro, insights into Colleen Hoover's popularity [NY Times]; Amazon bugs [Kindlepreneur]; Ingram invests in Book.io […]
Using AI For Art, Images, And Book Covers With Derek Murphy
Oct 13, 2022
Generative art tools like DALL-E, Midjourney, and Stable Diffusion are taking AI art into the mainstream. What are the opportunities for authors? What are the problems and controversies to be aware of? I talk about these issues and more with Derek Murphy. In the intro, I mention my J.F. Penn NFTs with AI-generated art based […]
The Way Of The Fearless Writer With Beth Kempton
Oct 10, 2022
How can we accept imperfection as writers while still striving for excellence? How can we make space for going deeper into our writing while managing a busy life? Beth Kempton talks about The Way of the Fearless Writer in this wide-ranging interview on the creative mindset. In the intro, when life throws a curveball and […]
Different Traditional Publishing Experiences With Georgina Cross
Oct 03, 2022
Traditional publishing is not a monolithic thing. There are different kinds of publishers, and authors want different things out of a publishing deal and relationship. Georgina Cross talks about her experience with two different traditional publishers and the pros and cons of each. In the intro, new e-reading devices, Kobo Clara 2E and Kindle Scribe; […]
Writing Tips: Outlining/Plotting Vs Discovery Writing/Pantsing
Sep 30, 2022
Every fiction author will (eventually) find their own method for writing but all fall somewhere on the spectrum between outlining/plotting and discovery writing/pantsing/writing into the dark. In this excerpt from How To Write a Novel, I share two chapters on the topic from the audiobook, narrated by me (Joanna Penn). You can listen above or […]
Transmedia And Publishing Comics And Graphic Novels With Barry Nugent
Sep 26, 2022
How can you adapt your novel into a comic or graphic form? What are the different types? How does a creative career develop over the long term and when do you need to take a step back to consider how to move forward? Barry Nugent talks about all this and more. In the intro, Amazon […]
Lessons Learned From 11 Years As An Author Entrepreneur
Aug 29, 2022
In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 11 years as a full-time author entrepreneur, and why I am (finally) taking some time off. In the intro, Soldiers of God short story, The Creator Economy for Authors course (use coupon SUMMER22 for 30% off), Science Fiction Writing online conference, Author Tech Summit; […]
Estate Planning For Authors With Michael La Ronn
Aug 22, 2022
How can you make sure your heirs and successors are able to manage your books and copyright licensing after your death? What aspects do you need to think about in terms of your author estate? Michael La Ronn explains this important topic in clear terms. In the intro, more quotes from the DOJ vs PRH […]
Auto-Narrated Audiobooks With Ryan Dingler From Google Play Books
Aug 19, 2022
What is auto-narration of audiobooks and how can it benefit authors and rights-holders as well as listeners? What are some of the common objections to auto-narration and how can we keep a positive attitude to embracing change? Ryan Dingler from Google Play Books goes into detail on these questions and more. You can also listen […]
How can you intensify the conflict in your books to hook readers? How can you introduce different types and layers of conflict to improve your story? Becca Puglisi explains why and how to write conflict. In the intro, thoughts on the DOJ vs PRH trial [Twitter @JohnHMaher] and Publishers Weekly round-up; my thoughts on subscription […]
Selling Books Direct With Shopify: The Minimum Viable Store
Aug 12, 2022
In July 2022, I launched my online shop at www.CreativePennBooks.com. It’s built on Shopify’s eCommerce platform, and in this solo episode, I’ll explain why I built the store, my lessons learned, tips if you want to build your own, and how I intend to expand it over time. This episode is sponsored by my wonderful […]
Selling Books Direct On Shopify With Morgana Best
Aug 08, 2022
Selling your books direct to readers and listeners can bring you more money, faster, and allow you to control your customer's experience and data. Morgana Best explains why selling direct is so important for an author business, and some of her tips for implementing a Shopify store. In the intro, the publishing court case of […]
Lessons Learned From 3 Years As A Full-Time Author with Sacha Black
Aug 01, 2022
What do you need to consider if you want to go full time as an author entrepreneur? What challenges might you face in your first few years? Sacha Black shared her lessons learned from 3 years full-time. In the intro, PRH and S&S merger heads to trial [Publishers Weekly]; Pilgrimage episodes on my Books and […]
Blockchain For Copyright And Intellectual Property With Roanie Levy
Jul 29, 2022
How will blockchain technology change the way creatives register copyright, as well as monetize their work? Roanie Levy explains how blockchain can solve the attribution problem, and how smart contracts will allow new business models with ownership of digital assets in web 3. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a […]
Writing A Bestseller With A.G. Riddle
Jul 25, 2022
How can you lean into your strengths as a writer to find the genre — and the business model — that suits you best? A.G. Riddle talks about his writing process, his publishing choices, and how he's planning to pivot into the next phase of his career. In the intro, I talk about my experience […]
Reach: Create The Biggest Audience For Your Book With Becky Robinson
Jul 18, 2022
Tools and tactics may change, but the principles of book marketing remain the same whatever the situation. Becky Robinson gives advice on how to reach readers and market your books for the long term. In the intro, The Things You Think Matter — Don’t [Ryan Holiday]; Boost Your Backlist [ALLi]; Craving Independence [The Bookseller]; 21st […]
Writing A Novel Will Change Your Life. Audiobook Introduction Of How To Write A Novel.
Jul 15, 2022
How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book is out now if you buy direct from my store, www.CreativePennBooks.com for ebook, audiobook, paperback, or workbook editions. It will be out everywhere on your favorite store in your preferred format from 13 August 2022. More details and links here. In today's special inbetweenisode, I share […]
Writing For The Long-Term With Tess Gerritsen
Jul 11, 2022
How can you write a series which keeps your readers engaged, while still keeping your creative spark alive? How can you sustain a writing career for the long term? With Tess Gerritsen. In the intro, The Creator Economy report [The Tilt]; Publisher Rocket tutorial. Today's show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print […]
Publishing Special Print Editions And Crowdfunding with John Bond and Chris Wold from White Fox
Jul 08, 2022
Print on demand makes it easy to sell print books without the hassle of storage and shipping — but it's limited to what the established POD printers allow. What if you want to do a special print run, either for a crowdfunding project, or because you want higher quality print production with extras? White Fox […]
Different Kinds Of Editing, And How To Find An Editor With Kristen Tate
Jul 04, 2022
What are the different types of editing? How can you find and work effectively with the best editor for your book? What are some editing tips to watch out for in your fiction or non-fiction manuscript? With Kristen Tate from The Blue Garret. In the intro, hiring virtual assistants [ALLi]; and I'm recording my audiobook […]
Writing Twists And Marketing As A Traditionally Published Author With Clare Mackintosh
Jun 27, 2022
How can you write twists that surprise a reader? How can you market your books effectively as a traditionally published author? Clare Mackintosh talks about her creative process, and how she works with her publisher to reach more readers. In the intro, Kate Bush is “the world’s biggest independent artist” right now and more on […]
Writing With Artificial Intelligence With Andrew Mayne
Jun 24, 2022
What is GPT-3 and how can writers use it responsibly as part of their creative process? How can we approach AI tools with curiosity, rather than fear? Thriller author Andrew Mayne talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, I mention the discussion about whether Google’s language model, LaMDA, could be sentient [The Verge]; […]
Selling Books Direct on Shopify with Katie Cross
Jun 20, 2022
How can you sell books direct to your readers for all formats without dealing with the pain of shipping print books? How can you automate sales with email? How can you earn 80-90% of the sales price and have it go into your bank account in days or even hours, instead of months? Katie Cross […]
Kickstarter And Multiple Streams Of Non-Fiction Income With Bryan Cohen
Jun 13, 2022
How can you manage a successful Kickstarter campaign without burning out? How can you expand into multiple streams of income? Bryan Cohen talks about crowdfunding, changes in his business model, and more. In the intro, 10th year of double-digit audiobook growth [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify's plans for audiobook expansion [Spotify]; Free webinars for audiobook month [FindawayVoices]; […]
How To Get Your Self-Published Book Into Libraries With Eric Otis Simmons
Jun 06, 2022
How can you make your self-published books available to libraries in every format? How can you pitch librarians so they are interested in ordering your books? Eric Otis Simmons explains how he successfully pitches and sells to libraries throughout the USA. In the intro, Books2Read is useful for sharing wide links; Lindsay Buroker gives long […]
Build Your Email List With Reader Magnets With Tammi Labrecque
May 30, 2022
Why do you need an email list when you can just reach readers with social media? How can you use reader magnets to build your email list? Tammi Labrecque gives beginner and advanced tips for book marketing. In the intro, The state of the Creator Economy report from ConvertKit; and I use and recommend ConvertKit […]
How do we decide on the hero for our story? How can we write distinctive — but still believable — characters? Matt Bird talks about aspects of writing character. In the intro, a guide to UBLs, Universal Book Links [Draft2Digital]; Your author brand [Ask ALLi with me and Orna Ross]; The Creator Economy in Bath. […]
An Update On AI-Narrated Audiobooks [May 2022]
May 20, 2022
I've been talking about AI narration for several years now, but it's just starting to go mainstream and I've been getting emails every day recently asking the same questions, so this is a round-up article with the most important information. For context, I am an audiobook narrator. I narrate my own non-fiction and short stories. […]
Writing, Independence, And Selling Books Direct With Derek Sivers
May 16, 2022
Why is writing so important? How can we pursue true independence as authors? How can we stay open to technological change while still focusing on the fundamentals of craft? Derek Sivers talks about these things and more. In the intro, How to know if you are putting too much pressure on yourself [Holly Worton]; Breaking […]
Financial And Tax Implications Of NFTs With Joe David, Crypto Accountant
May 13, 2022
If you want to create, sell, buy, or trade NFTs, you need to understand the financial and tax implications. In this interview, Joe David explains the important aspects of blockchain assets and cryptocurrency. [Disclaimer: This is not financial or legal advice. This is just a conversation based on our interest and experience. Please consult a […]
Writing A Successful Crime Thriller Series With Angela Marsons
May 09, 2022
In this inspirational interview, crime writer Angela Marsons talks about how she overcame years of rejection and broke out of societal expectations to reach writing and publishing success. She also talks about tips for writing a long-running crime series, and how she weaves her home of the Black Country into her stories. In the intro, […]
Tiny Business, Big Money With Elaine Pofeldt
May 02, 2022
How can you make more money without growing the size of your business? What systems and mindset do you need to focus on in order to leverage your limited time? Elaine Pofeldt talks about Tiny Business, Big Money in this interview. In the intro, Google Play Books opens up their AI narration for audiobooks; thoughts […]
7 Figure Fiction With Theodora Taylor
Apr 25, 2022
How can you hook readers into your story by using universal human desires and motivations? How can you write what you love, run your author business your way, and still maintain the ambition for a 7-figure author business? Theodora Taylor gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, self-publishing predictions for the 2020s [ALLi]; […]
Creating A Fictional World In Web 3 With Rae Wojcik and Stephen Poynter
Apr 22, 2022
Why are digital scarcity and ownership so important to the business model of creators in web 3? How can an author use a wider fictional world for creative and business goals? Rae and Stephen talk about why creators need web 3 and their fantasy universe, SitkaWorld. In the intro, I mention the Creatokia podcast with […]
From Big Idea To Book With Jessie Kwak
Apr 18, 2022
How can you turn one idea into a short story or expand it into a novel? How can you find a writing process that brings you joy for the long term? Jessie Kwak talks about writing craft tips in this interview. In the intro, I comment on Andy Jassy's letter to shareholders and the importance […]
Creating And Selling Books For Children With Daniel Miller
Apr 11, 2022
How can you write a book that children will love? How can you reach schools and libraries with your books? What might you be leaving on the table in terms of revenue in your author business? Daniel Miller shares his tips, and we also discuss the potential opportunities in his business model. In the intro, […]
Intuitive Editing With Tiffany Yates Martin
Apr 04, 2022
How can you create distance from your manuscript in order to see it as a reader does and edit effectively? What are some of the biggest issues with editing a manuscript? How can you edit on a budget? Tiffany Yates Martin talks all about editing in this interview. In the intro, 10 years of the […]
Kickstarter For Authors With Monica Leonelle
Mar 28, 2022
Would you like to successfully crowdfund your book on Kickstarter? Monica Leonelle shares practical and mindset tips for creating the right kind of project, as well as mistakes to avoid, and how to satisfy fans — and make money with your books. Monica and I recorded this before Brandon Sanderson's epic Kickstarter which has raised […]
The Legal Side Of Intellectual Property, NFTs, and DAOs With Kathryn Goldman
Mar 25, 2022
How can you future-proof your author career by being careful with the publishing clauses you sign? Why are NFTs so interesting for intellectual property? How might DAOs help authors with estate planning? Copyright and trademark attorney Kathryn Goldman talks about these things and more. In the intro, I talk about my art NFTs [JFPenn & […]
Your Story Matters With Nikesh Shukla
Mar 21, 2022
How do we tell the deeper story that matters in a way that engages readers? How can we tackle the inner critic, self-censorship and fear of judgment? And does social media actually sell books? Nikesh Shukla talks about why Your Story Matters and gives his writing tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up Ads to […]
Different Ways Of Publishing Through Substack And NFTs With Elle Griffin
Mar 18, 2022
What if the traditional publishing model is not the best way to publish a book in a digital age? What if publishing it as an ebook on Amazon is not the best way, either? Elle Griffin questions the established ways of publishing a book and explains how she is using SubStack and NFTs for her […]
Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash. NFTs For Authors [Audio] With Joanna Penn
Mar 16, 2022
I've spent the last 15 years building an author business on Web 2 — digital publishing, blogging and podcasting, social media, and more. But as Web 3 begins to emerge through blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the metaverse, I want to make sure I still have a thriving business over the next 15 years. NFTs are an […]
Improve Your Creativity With Dan Holloway
Mar 14, 2022
How can we improve our creativity and release our self-censorship to write more freely? Dan Holloway talks about aspects of creativity as well as physical challenges, neurodiversity, and how technology might augment us in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter [Kris Rusch]; Guide to Multiple Streams of Income [Self Publishing Advice]; Thoughts […]
Dealing With Self-Doubt And Writer’s Block With Dharma Kelleher
Mar 07, 2022
How can we overcome self-doubt to write the books we really want to? How can we move past writer's block? How can we reshape our definition of success and return to the joy of writing? Dharma Kelleher talks about the author mindset and more. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter, Bookstore consolidation [The Guardian]; Amazon […]
Pivoting On The Creative Journey With Johnny B Truant
Feb 28, 2022
The creative journey is often a winding path to success, but our experiences along the way can enrich our writing and help us develop a unique author voice. Johnny B Truant talks about his journey from scientist to non-fiction/self-help, to over 100 books and a TV show based on his novels. In the intro, What […]
Writing Tips: Lessons Learned From Rewriting My First Novel Over A Decade Later
Feb 25, 2022
In January 2022, I re-edited my first novel, Stone of Fire, which I started during NaNoWriMo in 2009 and published in April 2011. In this episode, I explain why and how I re-edited the book, as well as some lessons learned from revisiting my writer self of over a decade ago. This episode includes: Why […]
Tips For Indie Author Success With Craig Martelle
Feb 21, 2022
It's never too late to start writing and there are many pro writers ahead of you on the path lead the way. Craig Martelle shares tips on writing, self-publishing, and book marketing, as well as how he believes in the rising tide that lifts all boats, and how helping each other is the best way […]
Draft2Digital Acquires Smashwords. The Opportunities Ahead For Wide Publishing With Mark Coker And Kevin Tumlinson
Feb 18, 2022
Smashwords was the original distribution service for indie authors and Mark Coker has been an advocate for wide publishing for over 14 years. Draft2Digital has been a fantastic service for indies over the last decade, moving into new markets, providing great tools, and helping authors sell more books. On Feb 8, 2022, Draft2Digital announced they […]
Self-Publishing In Jamaica And The Caribbean And The Importance Of Diverse Voices With C. Ruth Taylor
Feb 14, 2022
The self-publishing movement is just getting started in Jamaica and the Caribbean islands, and authors are discovering they can tell their stories in their own way. C. Ruth Taylor talks about how she became an authorpreneur and why she believes in an indie-first, empowering ecosystem. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires Smashwords [D2D; Mark Coker]; Impact […]
Book Marketing Tips For The Long Term With John Kremer
Feb 07, 2022
John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Book was the first book I ever bought on marketing way back when I started self-publishing in 2008. He has revised it several times since and is still a prolific content creator around book marketing. I'm thrilled to discuss long-term book marketing for authors in this interview. In […]
The Creative Potential Of NFTs For Authors With J. Thorn And Joanna Penn
Feb 04, 2022
J. Thorn and I are both authors and passionate about helping writers find new ways to create, collaborate, reach fans, and make more money in the Creator Economy. We're also both excited about the creative and financial possibilities of emerging blockchain technology, including NFTs. In this discussion, we cover: Explaining NFTs for non-technical people. Some […]
Episode 600: Thoughts On Writing Craft, Publishing, Marketing, Mindset, And The Author Business With Joanna Penn
Jan 31, 2022
Welcome to episode 600! I’m doing a solo show today, answering some questions from my recent podcast survey that cover the different aspects of the author life. From episode 1 to episode 600 I recorded episode 1 in March 2009 when I lived in Ipswich, just outside Brisbane, Australia. I phoned up a bestselling author […]
Take Back Your Book: An Author’s Guide to Rights Reversion and Publishing on Your Terms With Katlyn Duncan
Jan 24, 2022
How can you take back your rights when publishing conditions change? How can you make sure you sign contracts that make it easier for rights reversion in the future? Katlyn Duncan talks about these things and more. In the intro, the splits in indie publishing [Kris Writes]; Burnout and Writer's Block [6 Figure Authors]; Publisher […]
The Craft And Business Of Poetry With Rishi Dastidar
Jan 17, 2022
How do you turn an idea into a poem? What are the publishing options for poets, and how does marketing work? Rishi Dastidar talks about his life in poetry and provides tips for taking your creative work further. In the intro, What Readers Want in 2022 [ALLi]; Ads for Authors (affiliate link); Submission on AI […]
A Writer’s Guide To The End Of Self-Doubt With William Kenower
Jan 10, 2022
How can we recognize self-doubt and create alongside it as part of the author journey? How can we write with confidence and double down on what we love the most? William Kenower talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, planning for 2022 [Ask ALLi]; Your publishing options [6 Figure Authors]; Need an audiobook […]
Improve Your Sleep And Creativity With Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci
Jan 03, 2022
If the pandemic has affected your sleep, you are not alone! If you want to sort out your sleep issues and improve your creativity — and your life — as we head into a new year, this episode with Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci will help. In the intro, publishing industry trends for 2022 [Written Word […]
My Creative And Business Goals For 2022 With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2022
“We make plans, God laughs.” The old Yiddish proverb will no doubt stand true for another year, but I just can’t help myself! I need to make plans to have something to aim for, but given how 2021 didn’t turn out as expected, for 2022 I will hold my plans and goals loosely and won’t […]
Not Quite The Year We Hoped For. Review Of My 2021 Creative Business Goals
Dec 27, 2021
As we all look back at the past year, it feels like it’s flown by — but also that time has warped in a way and it feels like we’ve been stuck in this pandemic for much longer than we expected. So here’s my 2021 year in review and an update on whether I managed […]
How To Find The Time To Write And Make The Most Of Your Writing Time With Joanna Penn
Dec 20, 2021
Our publishing, marketing and author business tasks are important — but at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing. We are authors. We are writers. So as we head toward a new year, how can you find the time to write? How can you make the most of your writing time? […]
Why is story so important — no matter what genre we write? How can we use emotion to hook readers — and also tap into what matters in our own lives? Lisa Cron talks about these questions and more in this discussion about Story or Die. In the intro, Ultimate Guide to Copyright [ALLi]; How […]
Writing Hooks And Improving Your Fiction Book Description With Michaelbrent Collings
Dec 06, 2021
Readers buy or borrow your book based on your cover and book description, so how can we make sure the description is the best it can be? How can we make readers want to click Buy Now and start reading immediately? Michaelbrent Collings provides useful tips — and tough love! — for authors who struggle […]
Patience, Ambition, And Financial Independence With MK Williams
Nov 29, 2021
How can you cultivate patience for your long-term author career? How can you figure out your personal, creative and financial goals and make choices toward them? MK Williams talks about these questions, as well as podcast marketing and turning a blog or transcript into a book. In the intro, my reflections on the UK FutureBook […]
Digital Narration With AI Voices With Taylan From DeepZen
Nov 26, 2021
Is digital narration with AI voices good enough for non-fiction or fiction audiobooks? Can human narrators benefit through voice licensing? What are the options for sales and distribution? Taylan Kamis from Deep Zen explains digital narration for audiobooks, and I share some samples from my digitally narrated books through Deep Zen. Taylan Kamis is the […]
Short Stories As The Basis To An Award-Winning Author Career With Alan Baxter
Nov 22, 2021
How do you know when an idea is a short story, a novella, or a full-length novel? How can you turn one story into multiple streams of income? Alan Baxter talks about a long-term craft-centered approach to the author career and how his short stories have won him multiple awards. In the intro, State of […]
Can Stories Save The World? Writing For The Environment With Denise Baden
Nov 19, 2021
The relentless news about climate change can leave us despondent — but what if we can use fiction to help people with positive ideas of what the future could look like and the actions we can take to change things? Denise Baden talks about the power of eco-fiction and explains the Green Stories Novel Prize, […]
Big Ideas In Technology And Publishing With Michael Bhaskar
Nov 15, 2021
With so many technological advances in recent years, can publishing keep up? Michael Bhaskar and I discuss AI tools for writing, blockchain and NFTs, digital narration, and impacts on intellectual property rights licensing in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Spotify acquires Findaway and my thoughts on what it means for authors, narrators, and rights-holders […]
Amazon Keywords And Atticus For Writing And Book Formatting With Dave Chesson
Nov 12, 2021
Dave Chesson provides many useful tools and information for authors at Kindlepreneur and he has recently launched Atticus, writing and formatting software that will output both ebook and print formats, as well as providing collaboration and ARC management tools. Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur and producer of Publisher Rocket and Atticus, amongst many […]
Pitching A Book For Film Or TV With Chrissy Metge
Nov 08, 2021
What projects are worth pitching for film and TV? What do you need to include in your pitch? Why are there more opportunities for writers now? Chrissy Metge talks about these questions and more. In the intro, the US Justice Department sues to block the Penguin Random House acquisition of Simon & Schuster [The Guardian]; […]
Creatokia. The World Of Digital Originals (NFTs) With Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann
Nov 05, 2021
Creatokia is one of the first book-specific NFT platforms and in this interview, co-founders Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann explain what NFTs are and why they are an opportunity for authors and rights-holders. They are also the co-founders of Bookwire, which already provides digital publishing solutions for the publishing industry. After the interview, I reflect on […]
Writing And Podcasting Poetry With Mark McGuinness
Nov 01, 2021
How can we balance creative passion projects with work that brings in an income? What are the different types of poetry and how can we bring them alive through the spoken word? Mark McGuinness talks about how poetry is at the center of his universe, fueling his creativity as well as informing his coaching business. […]
The Ownership Economy. Business Models Around NFTs With Jessica Artemisia
Oct 28, 2021
What are the different ways that authors can use NFTs to reach readers and earn money with blockchain technology? How can we address the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is inevitable when faced with new technological options? Jessica Artemisia Mathieu explains some of the business models with NFTs. In the intro, and in a longer […]
Who Killed My Mother? Writing And Podcasting True Crime Memoir With Kory Shrum
Oct 25, 2021
On July 4, 2020, Kory Shrum received two phone calls. One from her uncle, saying her mother was found dead in her bedroom from an overdose. A second from a homicide detective saying he believes it was murder—and her uncle is the suspect. In this interview, Kory talks about how she turned her trauma into […]
How to Research Your Book With Vikki Carter, The Author’s Librarian
Oct 18, 2021
How do you research a book in the most appropriate way? How can you keep track of your sources and attribute them correctly, as well as avoiding inadvertent plagiarism? How can you get your book/s into libraries? Vikki Carter talks about all these questions and more. In the intro, Has Amazon Changed Fiction? [New Republic]; […]
Build Better Worlds: Anthropology For Writers With Michael Kilman
Oct 11, 2021
How can anthropology — the study of human cultures — teach us to build richer and more convincing worlds for our stories? What questions do we need to ask of our characters and settings to bring them alive? Michael Kilman talks about how anthropology can help with world-building in this episode. In the intro, the […]
How To Use Mystery To Hook Your Readers With Jonah Lehrer
Oct 04, 2021
How can you use elements of mystery to hook your readers, regardless of the genre you write? How can you make sure your writing process prevents errors or plagiarism? Jonah Lehrer covers these aspects and more. In the intro, KDP Print available in hardback; Bookvolts book-specific NFT platform [Medium]; Books for writers in the NaNoWriMo […]
Opportunities For Audiobooks And Introducing The Findaway Voices Marketplace With Will Dages
Sep 29, 2021
How can you expand your creative and financial opportunities with audiobooks and podcasting? Will Dages from Findaway Voices talks about options as well as introducing the new Marketplace. Will Dages is the head of Findaway Voices, which helps authors produce and distribute audiobooks to a global network of platforms and listeners. You can listen above […]
Co-Writing The Relaxed Author with Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Sep 27, 2021
How can you be a more relaxed author when there is always so much more to do? How can you co-write a book and retain different voices in written text as well as audio? Mark Leslie Lefebvre and I discuss how we co-wrote The Relaxed Author and how we're publishing and marketing it. In the […]
Writing And Producing Audio Drama And Podcast Fiction With Sarah Werner
Sep 20, 2021
The opportunities for creation and marketing in audio format continue to expand and the lines are blurring between audiobooks, podcasts and other forms of audio storytelling. In this episode, Sarah Werner talks about writing for audio first and the challenges of full-cast audio drama and podcast fiction. In the intro, problems with publishing distribution and […]
What are the different types of travel books and how can you blend them within the genre? How can we tackle our imposter syndrome when writing in a genre we love? Jeremy Bassetti explores these questions and more in today's show. In the intro, my 10-year author entrepreneur lessons learned; the different stages of an […]
Author Mindset: Strengths For Writers With Becca Syme
Sep 06, 2021
We all have different strengths as writers, but sometimes we don't know what they are. Or we get frustrated because we try to succeed at something that just won't work for our personality. In this interview, Becca Syme explains how our strengths can help us and how to ‘question the premise' whenever we face different […]
Narrative Design In The Gaming Industry With Edwin McRae
Aug 30, 2021
How can you design a story that branches into multiple directions? How does writing for games help with writing a novel? Ed McRae explains narrative design and the opportunities for writers in the gaming industry. In the intro, ‘the inevitable decline of open platforms' [Seth Godin]; pros and cons of different print distribution models [Adam […]
Stories Are What Save Us: Writing About Trauma With David Chrisinger
Aug 23, 2021
Writing can help us process trauma — whatever that means for you — as well as help others through our words. In this episode, David Chrisinger explains why stories can save us. In the intro, thoughts on print distribution [Jane Friedman]; Hachette's acquisition of Workman and why backlist is key [The New Publishing Standard]; Your […]
If you write fiction in any genre, you need to build your world. Whether it's the cozy coffee shop in your romance, or a complete fantasy world, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland, world-building can strengthen your plot and bring depth and conflict to your characters. Angeline Trevena gives plenty of tips in this episode. In the […]
The Metaverse For Authors And Publishing. Web 3.0, VR, AR, And The Spatial Web
Aug 12, 2021
Web 2.0 enabled the digital revolution that transformed the possibilities for authors and creators, so how will Web 3.0 transform it again over the next decade? This is a special futurist in-betweenisode on what many are calling Web 3.0 which encompasses virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), the metaverse, and the spatial web. It’s intended […]
Lessons Learned From A Decade Of Self-Publishing And Marketing Children’s Books With Karen Inglis
Aug 09, 2021
Taking the long-term view plus taking advantage of new marketing tactics can help you sell more books, as Karen Inglis talks about in this interview. In the intro, Pearson launches a subscription app [The Bookseller]; A+ content could help you sell more books [The Hotsheet]; Takeaways from Podcast Movement 2021 around the audio eco-system and […]
Bringing Old World Publishing Skills To New World Creators With John Bond From White Fox
Aug 06, 2021
What has changed in publishing over the last decade? How can a reputable author services company help you achieve your publishing goals? In this interview with John Bond from White Fox, we discuss aspects of the publishing journey. If you are considering working with an author services company or publishing partner, check whether they are […]
Rediscover Your Creative Free Spirit With Peleg Top
Aug 02, 2021
How can you rediscover your creative free spirit if you're feeling burned out? How can you combine creativity, spirituality and money to experience more in your author life? Peleg Top talks about these things and more in today's interview. In the intro, adding A+ content to your Amazon book pages; Audible launches Premium Plus in […]
Writing And Publishing Literary Fiction With Roz Morris
Jul 26, 2021
How do you know when the seed of an idea is enough for a novel? What makes literary fiction different from other genres? Roz Morris shares her writing process from idea to the publication of Ever Rest. In the intro, my experience of COVID, my interview on Story of a Storyteller, and A Mouthful of […]
Gentle Book Marketing With Sarah Santacroce
Jul 19, 2021
Can book marketing really be gentle, sustainable — and even enjoyable? Sarah Santacroce talks about how to reframe marketing and gives ideas for marketing your books. In the intro, Kindle Vella launches in the US [The Next Web]; A UK report calls for a reset in music streaming revenues to ensure fairer pay for artists […]
Co-Creating With AI Writing And Image Tools With Shane Neeley
Jul 16, 2021
How can co-creating with AI tools enhance your writing process — and make it more fun? Shane Neeley talks about his AI-augmented writing and visual art creations. This futurist show is sponsored by my Patrons at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. If you find it useful and you don't want to support every month, you could Buy Me A […]
Writing And Marketing Crime Fiction With Ed James
Jul 12, 2021
What are the key elements of a good crime novel? How can you reboot your author career through publishing and marketing changes? Ed James shares insights on his writing craft and author business. In the intro, Jeff Bezos steps down as CEO of Amazon [The Verge]; Why this is the best time to be in […]
From Self-Published Book To A Life-Changing Health Movement With Gin Stephens
Jul 05, 2021
Your personal story can change other people's lives, but only if you get your words into the world. In this episode, Gin Stephens shares how she self-published her first book on intermittent fasting and went on to get a traditional deal for more books, and lead a community of people into a healthier way of […]
Writing Humor And Insights From A Long Term Creative Career With Scott Dikkers
Jun 28, 2021
How can you write funny characters and make readers laugh with your writing? Plus the importance of long-term thinking and multiple streams of income when it comes to a career in comedy (or any creative field!). Scott Dikkers talks about these things and more in this episode. In the intro, Draft2Digital announces distribution to library […]
Writing Fiction With AI. Sudowrite With Amit Gupta
Jun 24, 2021
What if you could use an AI writing tool to help you come up with ideas for sensory detail, character descriptions, story twists, and more? Amit Gupta explains how authors can use Sudowrite in this episode. In the intro, I explain how I'm using Sudowrite, plus AI for Authors: Practical and Ethical Guidelines from the […]
Writing Non-Fiction With Personal Stories with Natalie Sisson
Jun 21, 2021
How can you write a useful self-help book with actionable tips, but also bring it to life with personal stories? How can you use a book title to attract your target market? Natalie Sisson shares her experience in writing her latest non-fiction book. In the intro, 94% of the world’s internet users are not in the USA […]
Embracing Multi-Passionate Creativity And Running A Small Press With Jessica Bell
Jun 14, 2021
Some say you can only be successful if you focus on one thing, but what if you are a multi-passionate creative? What if your Muse is inspired to write song lyrics as well as poetry, non-fiction as well as novels and heart-wrenching memoir? Jessica Bell manages to juggle many aspects of a creative career and […]
NFTs for Authors And Publishing with John Fox
Jun 10, 2021
Why are NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) so exciting for authors and the publishing industry? How will they generate more streams of revenue for creators? What are some ways that authors could use them? All this and more in today's interview. I also mention Bloomberg's article on how NFTs shift power to artists in the intro. Thanks […]
Transitioning From An In-Person Business To Online Multiple Streams Of Income With Guy Windsor
Jun 07, 2021
The pandemic has favoured digital business models, but how can you transition to online sales when you run an in-person business? How can you move from one stream of income to multiple streams? Guy Windsor has lots of ideas for your author business in this fascinating interview. In the intro, fear-based decision making [Kris Rusch]; […]
How To Edit Your Book And The Different Kinds Of Professional Editors With Natasa Lekic
May 31, 2021
How you can prepare your book before sending it to an editor? What are the different types of edits and editors you can use for different phases of your writing process? When is editing software worth using and when do you really need human eyes on your work? All this and more in the interview […]
Discovery Writing And Sustaining A Long-Term Writing Career With Patricia McLinn
May 24, 2021
What is discovery writing (sometimes known as pantsing)? How can you write a novel with structure if you don't plot in advance? How can you build a writing career for the long-term? All this and more with Patricia McLinn. In the intro, “98 percent of the books that publishers released in 2020 sold fewer than […]
The Challenges Of A First Novel With James Blatch
May 16, 2021
What are the challenges of writing a first novel — even when you think you know what you're doing? How do you define success when you are just starting out on the author journey? James Blatch talks about these questions and more. In the intro, thoughts from attending the Audio Publishers Association conference, and audiobooks […]
The Heroine’s Journey with Gail Carriger
May 10, 2021
What is the heroine's journey and how can it help you write a story that readers will love? Gail Carriger shares her writing tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing house mergers [Agent Kristin Nelson]; KDP Print in Australia; Bookwire announces a new NFT marketplace for the publishing and creator industry [Publishing Perspectives]. Plus, […]
The AI-Powered Micro-Business with Ash Fontana
May 07, 2021
Artificial Intelligence is already part of our lives in the tools and services we use every day. As AI development accelerates, how can authors and small businesses use it as leverage to expand income and opportunities? Ash Fontana gives some ideas in this interview on The AI-First Company. In the intro, How GPT-3 is quietly […]
Tips For Translation, Self-Publishing, And Marketing In Foreign Languages With Nadine Mutas
May 03, 2021
The book market is saturated for certain genres in digitally mature markets like the US and UK, but readers in other markets are hungry for books. In this episode, Nadine Mutas talks about self-publishing in German, French and Italian and her tips for finding a translator and marketing the books once they're available. In the […]
Mind Management, Not Time Management With David Kadavy
Apr 26, 2021
How do we make time for original insights that set our creative work apart? How do we reframe productivity so it serves our career for the long term? David Kadavy talks about mind management, not time management in this interview. In the intro, Jane Friedman reports on how the pandemic is affecting book publishing, lessons […]
How To Make A Living With Your Writing: First Principles
Apr 22, 2021
If you want to make a living with your writing, you will need the right mindset, as well as the practical skills to write, publish and market your books. In this excerpt from How to Make a Living with Your Writing Third Edition: Turn Your Words into Multiple Streams of Income, I go into the […]
Global, Wide Self-Publishing With Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Apr 19, 2021
How can you reach every reader on every platform in a global, distributed reading environment? How can you take a long-term, relaxed attitude to your author career? Mark Leslie Lefebvre talks about self-publishing wide in this interview. In the intro, KDP introduces Kindle Vella, a new serial reading platform, perhaps a response to China Literature's […]
Writing, Publishing And Marketing Books For Children With Crystal Swain-Bates
Apr 12, 2021
How can you write a children's story with a message without being preachy? How can you find and work effectively with an illustrator? How can you market your book to kids in schools? Crystal Swain Bates gives her tips on writing, publishing and marketing books for children, as well as how we can make books […]
Publish Wide, Sell More Books And AI for Voice. Google Play Books With Ryan Dingler
Apr 08, 2021
How can you sell more ebooks and audiobooks on Google Play Books to the global market? How can you optimize your books so they are more likely to be discovered? How might auto-narrated audiobooks help expand the market? All this and more in today's interview with Ryan Dingler from Google. Ryan Dingler is a product […]
Writing Dialogue And Character Voice With Jeff Elkins
Apr 05, 2021
How can we write authentic and engaging character dialogue? How can we incorporate sub-text that deepens our writing? Jeff Elkins, The Dialogue Doctor explains more in this interview. In the intro, the new AudibleGate site; scammers using big publisher names [Writer Beware]; Vellum update for Ingram PDF [Vellum software; my tools and tutorials] ; Do BookBub […]
Fix Your Writing Tics With Chris Banks From ProWriting Aid
Apr 02, 2021
What is your writer's tic and how can you fix it with Pro Writing Aid? Why are commas such an issue for writers? (and my own personal nemesis!) How can AI tools enhance our creativity and usher in a new abundant future for writers? I discuss all this and more with Chris Banks from Pro […]
What Can Authors Learn From Digital Changes In The Music Industry? With Tristra Newyear Yeager
Mar 28, 2021
What can authors learn from the digital changes in the music industry? In this interview, Tristra Newyear Yeager talks about the empowerment of the indie musician, multiple streams of income, and the uses of blockchain and AI. In the intro, I report back on attending SXSW and some other online conferences on lessons learned from […]
How To Write A Cozy Mystery With Debbie Young
Mar 22, 2021
Why is cozy mystery such a popular genre? What are the important tropes? What are the best ways to market a cozy series? Debbie Young talks about these aspects and more in this interview. In the intro, K-lytics genre reports; Findaway Voices Headphone Report 2020; Edison Research Infinite Dial report on audio; 16 tips on […]
Publishing On Kobo Writing Life With Tara Cremin
Mar 15, 2021
How can you reach more readers worldwide and sell more books on Kobo? What are the advantages to publishing direct with Kobo Writing Life? Tara Cremin gives her tips in today's show. In the intro, the launch of HelloBooks.com; Twitter Spaces for audio-only social [The Verge]; Blockchain, smart contracts, and NFTs; Mapwalker Trilogy available now; […]
Copyright Protection, Smart Contracts, Digital Scarcity And NFTs For Authors. Blockchain For The Publishing Industry With Simon-Pierre Marion
Mar 12, 2021
Blockchain technology offers exciting opportunities for authors and the publishing industry. In this interview, Simon-Pierre Marion and I discuss copyright protection, smart contracts, estate management and faster, more transparent payments, as well as how digital scarcity could expand the revenue potential in the digital supply chain. Plus, I add some extra commentary on the potential […]
Warrior Of The Blank Page. Writing, Marketing And Mindset With Steven Pressfield
Mar 08, 2021
How can you write through self-doubt? How can you break through Resistance to write and market your work? How do you decide which book to write next? Steven Pressfield talks about being a warrior of the blank page, how he deals with Resistance around writing and marketing, as well as self-doubt and other aspects of […]
How To Write Authentic Crime Fiction With Patrick O’Donnell From Cops and Writers
Mar 01, 2021
How can you write nuanced police characters in your crime novels? What are some under-used crimes that might make interesting plots? Patrick O'Donnell talks about Cops and Writers in the interview today. In the intro, thoughts on a digital sales webinar from Ingram Content; the Immersive Books & Media 2020 Research Report [Publishers Weekly]; how […]
The AI-Augmented Author. Writing With GPT-3 With Paul Bellow
Feb 26, 2021
How can authors use AI writing tools like GPT-3? What's the best way to prompt the models to output usable text? Are there copyright issues with this approach? Author Paul Bellow explains how he is using the tools and how authors need to embrace the possibilities rather than reject them. In the intro, I talk […]
Writing Tips: How To Structure And Write A Series With Sara Rosett
Feb 22, 2021
Why is a series the not-so-secret weapon for making a decent living with your writing? What's the difference between episodic series and one with a clear arc across the books? What are some of the best ways to market a series? Sara Rosett talks about all these things and more. In the intro, Facebook shuts […]
How To Write A Non-Fiction Book Proposal With Alison Jones
Feb 15, 2021
What makes a non-fiction book stand out from the crowd? What are the essential elements of a non-fiction book proposal if you want to pitch agents and/or publishers, or if you want to prepare for effective self-publishing? In this interview, Alison Jones goes into detail on these things and how the publishing industry has changed […]
The Artist In The Machine: The World Of AI-Powered Creativity With Arthur I. Miller
Feb 12, 2021
Can artificial intelligence augment our human creativity? Will AI ever be able to create art on its own and would we even be able to appreciate it? In this interview, Arthur I. Miller talks about the nature of creativity and The Artist in the Machine. In the intro, I mention my list of AI writing […]
Value Your Books For The Long Term With David Farland
Feb 08, 2021
You are not writing one book. You are creating an intellectual property asset that can make you money for the rest of your life and 50-70 years after you die. In this interview, David Farland talks about the importance of valuing your writing, and how to keep a long-term mindset as an author. In the […]
Stop Worrying, Start Selling. Change Your Author Mindset With Sarah Painter
Feb 01, 2021
How can we reframe book marketing as a creative and essential part of the author life? How can we manage fear and self-doubt in order to write? How can we embrace our ambition and aim high while still managing the day to day writing life? Sarah Painter talks about all this and more in this […]
Turn Your Author Failures, Setbacks, And Mistakes Into Success With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross
Jan 25, 2021
We all experience failures, setbacks, and mistakes on the author journey — but if we learn from them, they can be the basis for our greatest success. In this episode, Orna Ross and Joanna Penn share their biggest mistakes, failures, and setbacks as well as lessons learned. This interview originally went out on the Ask […]
A Techno-Optimist’s View Of The Creative Future For Authors. Joanna Penn On The Kindle Chronicles Podcast
Jan 22, 2021
It can be daunting to think about the future for authors and publishing when converging technologies are expanding into the realm of creativity, but there are many opportunities ahead — if you engage with the tools rather than run from them. In this interview, Len Edgerly interviews Joanna Penn about Artificial Intelligence and Virtual Worlds: […]
Co-writing With Artificial Intelligence With Yudhanjaya Wijeratne
Jan 18, 2021
We all use tools as part of the writing process. Other books and internet resources for research, Scrivener for writing the first draft, and a computer for typing or dictating into, as well as editing tools like ProWritingAid. But what if you could use AI tools to help inspire the writing process? In this episode, […]
It’s Never Too Late. How To Achieve Your Goals At Any Age With Kate Champion
Jan 11, 2021
If you feel like it's too late to achieve your goals — whether that’s because of your age or your fear of technology or you’re late to the indie author world — or anything else, today's interview with Kate Champion will help you reboot your mindset for the year ahead. In the intro, thoughts on […]
How To Be A Healthy Writer In 2021 With Dr Euan Lawson
Jan 04, 2021
Let's make 2021 a healthy, creative year! In today's show, Dr. Euan Lawson talks about ways to improve your physical and mental health, and how it can impact your creativity in a positive way. In the introduction, some thoughts on the year ahead for authors and publishing, including continued expansion to the global, digital, mobile […]
Creative Business Goals For 2021 With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2021
I love the new year! As the calendar turns a new page, we get to start again. After a very strange 2020, it feels like hope is in the air, and I'm ready to embark on the next year of my author journey. Are you ready for a fantastic 2021? Here are my creative and […]
Creative Business Review Of 2020 And Lessons Learned From A Pandemic Year With Joanna Penn
Dec 31, 2020
Every year, I set creative, financial and health goals and share them on the blog and the podcast. It helps keep me accountable and focused, although, inevitably things change over the year — this year, things changed across the whole world in the wake of the COVID19 pandemic and we all had to pivot to a […]
Tips For Your Author Business Plan With Joanna Penn
Dec 14, 2020
You are an author. You turn ideas into reality in the shape of a book. You turn the thoughts in your head into valuable intellectual property assets. You understand how powerful the written word can be. Now it's time to use your words to create a business plan to take your writing career to the […]
From Chaos to Creativity: Productivity For Writers With Jessie Kwak
Dec 07, 2020
How do you balance your time between what you have to do and what you want to do? How do you decide what's most important to work on? How do you make the most of the time you have for writing? I talk about productivity for authors and writers with Jessie Kwak. In the intro, […]
Voice Technologies, Streaming And Subscription Audio In A Time Of Artificial Intelligence (AI)
Dec 04, 2020
The audiobook market is currently held back by availability and cost of titles, as well as preference for narrators with different voices. The subscription model and AI voice narration will solve these issues — but we need audio rights licensing reform to make it happen. In this solo show: Streaming and subscription models AI voices […]
Copyright Law And Blockchain For Authors And Publishers In An Age Of Artificial Intelligence
Dec 02, 2020
Should copyright be attributed to original literary and artistic works autonomously generated by AI? How will creators of original material be compensated when their works are used to train natural language generation models? Intellectual property reform in the age of AI is inevitable, and we need our voices to be heard. In this solo show: […]
Writing In An Age Of Artificial Intelligence (AI)
Nov 30, 2020
In this solo episode, I discuss the impact of converging technologies, Artificial Intelligence, Natural Language Generation (NLG) tools like GPT-3, and more on writing, authors, and the publishing industry. My last AI show was in July 2019, 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors and Publishing in the Next 10 Years, and although I’ve […]
Business Mindset And Pivoting Your Author Career With Holly Worton
Nov 23, 2020
How can you prevent self-doubt and fear from blocking your creative expression? What if you've built an audience for your books, but then you want to change direction? I discuss these issues and more with Holly Worton. In the intro, Draft2Digital introduce payment splitting; Long-term and ‘wide' thinking with Sarah Painter on the 6 Figure […]
YouTube For Authors And Multiple Streams Of Income With Meg LaTorre
Nov 16, 2020
How can you use video to attract readers to your books — and create multiple streams of income? Meg La Torre gives some tips for video marketing. In the intro, ACX emails the community apologizing for an incredibly slow production process; but doesn't address the serious issue of returns [Susan May Writer]; ALLi revokes ACX […]
Networking For Authors With Daniel Parsons
Nov 09, 2020
How do you build a network of author friends and peers over the long-term? How can you overcome anxiety about online or in-person events in order to network more effectively? Daniel Parsons and I share tips on networking online and also for physical events post-pandemic. In the intro, new Series management tools from Amazon KDP; […]
How To Write And Market Books Across Multiple Genres With Wendy H Jones
Nov 02, 2020
How do you successfully write and market in multiple genres if you're a multi-passionate creator? How do you manage a hybrid career across traditional and independent publishing? Wendy H. Jones talks about her varied writing career and her tips for book marketing. In the intro, The HotSheet reports from Frankfurt Book Fair with positive […]
Writing In The Dark. Horror Writing Tips With Tim Waggoner
Oct 26, 2020
How do you write your darkness without drowning in it? How do you write an original horror story while still respecting the tropes of the genre? Why are horror writers the nicest people around?! Tim Waggoner gives some craft tips for writing horror, as well as thoughts on the current publishing and TV/film environment. In […]
Building A Creative Business Brand With Pamela Wilson
Oct 19, 2020
How do you build a creative business that you love — and makes you money? Pamela Wilson talks about her non-fiction business model, how to choose a niche, plus how to pivot your brand over time. In the intro, I talk about my pilgrimage walk and how we all need to weigh up risks […]
Mental Models For Writers And The Empowered Indie Author With Michael LaRonn
Oct 12, 2020
Writing is absolutely about the practical step of getting words on the page — but your mindset can make the difference between success and failure, as well as how much you enjoy the author journey. In this interview, Michael La Ronn outlines mental models for writers, facing our fears to break through to creative success, […]
Outlining Your Novel And Filling The Creative Well With K.M. Weiland
Oct 05, 2020
How can you use an outline to improve your book before you start the first draft? How can you use it to play with your creative ideas without feeling hemmed in by the process? In this interview, KM Weiland talks about how to outline your novel as well as thoughts on writer's block, filling the […]
Starting From Zero And Success With BookBub Ads With David Gaughran
Sep 28, 2020
When you've been self-publishing over a decade, it's easy to see how things have changed for indie authors and where the opportunities lie for publishing and marketing our books. In this wide-ranging interview, David Gaughran discusses the shifts in the industry, starting from zero, book marketing tips, and more. In the intro, Audible launches an […]
Audiobook Narration, Production And Marketing Tips With Derek Doepker
Sep 21, 2020
Audiobooks are one of the fastest-growing segments in publishing and the expansion of podcasts onto every major platform means there are more ways to market to audio-first consumers (which increasingly includes me!) In this episode, Derek Doepker gives some tips on why audiobooks are so important as a format, self-narration, working with a narrator, plus, […]
Publishing Wide For The Win With Erin Wright
Sep 14, 2020
Do you want to make your books available to readers in every format, in every online store and library, in every country? If yes, it's time to go wide for the win! In today's episode with Erin Wright, we discuss what ‘going wide' means, why libraries are so important, and tips for publishing wide wherever […]
Creativity, Business, And Ambition With Emily Kimelman
Sep 07, 2020
How can you juggle full-time writing and a family? How can you manage ambition about adventure and travel with a desire to be a 7-figure author? How can you be both creative and a business-person? I talk about all this and more in today's wide-ranging interview with Emily Kimelman. In the introduction, The Authors Guild, […]
Changes In Ebook Publishing Over The Last Decade And Possible Changes Ahead With Len Edgerly Of The Kindle Chronicles Podcast
Aug 30, 2020
The last decade has seen a dramatic change in the publishing industry as ebooks and digital audio have gone from a side note to a huge part of the reader experience — and a significant part of independent author incomes. In this episode, I talk to Len Edgerly from The Kindle Chronicles Podcast which started […]
How To Write Narrative Non-Fiction With Matt Hongoltz-Hetling
Aug 24, 2020
What is narrative non-fiction and how do you write a piece so powerful it is nominated for a Pulitzer? In this interview, Matt Hongoltz-Hetling talks about his process for finding stories worth writing about and how he turns them into award-winning articles. In the intro, I talk about Spotify (possibly) getting into audiobooks and Amazon […]
How To Reboot A Flagging Author Career With Michaelbrent Collings
Aug 17, 2020
What happens when you've written award-winning books, get amazing reviews from readers, and your sales still start a downward spiral? You can give up writing — or you can take a step back, review your catalog, figure out a plan and up-skill, then reboot your author career. In this episode, Michaelbrent Collings shares how he […]
AI And Creativity Update: A Voice Double Conversation Featuring Joanna Penn And Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Aug 13, 2020
In mid-2019, I shared 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence Might Disrupt Authors and Publishing, and one of those possible disruptions concerned voice technologies, which I also wrote about in Audio for Authors. In 2020, we have seen an acceleration of AI with the release of GPT-3 for natural language processing and generation, as well as […]
How To Write A Bestseller With Suzy K Quinn
Aug 10, 2020
How can you write what you love and still aim for bestseller status? How can you combine craft and business in your writing life? Suzy K Quinn answers these questions and more in this fascinating interview. In the intro, entrepreneur and author Derek Sivers sells $250K worth of ebooks and audiobooks direct from his website […]
Writing And Business Lessons Learned From 500 Episodes And 11 Years Of The Creative Penn Podcast
Aug 03, 2020
It’s episode 500! Time flies indeed. The first episode of The Creative Penn Podcast was released on 15 March 2009. I had a couple of non-fiction books out, the international Kindle had not even launched, and there was no empowered indie author movement as we know it today. I was living in Ipswich, just outside […]
Writing Action Adventure Fiction And Systems Thinking With Nick Thacker
Jul 26, 2020
The life of a full-time independent author involves wearing many hats. You have to balance your time between learning your craft and pleasing readers with great books, as well as publishing, book marketing, and building a business that will support you for the long-term. In today's interview, Nick Thacker talks about the key aspects of […]
Writing A Series. Satisfy Readers And Make More Money With Lindsay Buroker
Jul 20, 2020
We live in a binge consumption culture and the best-loved stories are often those that allow a deeper experience of character and world. Think of your favorite TV shows or books and you will likely find a few series in there! Writing a series can also make you more money as a writer since you […]
How To Write Monsters With Philip Athans
Jul 13, 2020
Monsters tap into something primal that lies at the heart of being human. We have always feared what lies at the edge of the campfire, just out of sight, and as writers, tapping into those fears can be a powerful form of creation. In this interview, Philip Athans talks about why we find monsters so […]
How To Write Memoir With Marion Roach Smith
Jul 06, 2020
“Write something universal as illustrated by a deeply personal tale.” This advice is true regardless of the genre we write, and in this interview, Marion Roach Smith explains how we can dig deep into our truth and experience to write memoir, plus how she has created a business around a book, and a podcast around […]
Building A Creative Business For The Long Term With Natalie Sisson
Jun 29, 2020
Writing is a life-long practice, and for many of us, a long-term career. But how can you continue to thrive in a creative business while still changing over time? In this interview, I talk to entrepreneur Natalie Sisson about how she pivoted her brand after a change in lifestyle and how books play just one […]
How To Develop Bestselling Story Ideas With JD Barker
Jun 22, 2020
Do you aspire to write better stories? Do you have the ambition to aim for a career that rivals the biggest names in publishing? Today's interview with JD Barker will inspire you and give you some great tips around writing bestselling stories and building a long-term career. In the introduction, James Daunt of Waterstones and […]
Writing Tips: How To Self-Edit Your Novel With Kris Spisak
Jun 15, 2020
Writing a first draft is only the initial step in the journey to creating a novel. The next step is editing, and in this interview, Kris Spisak talks about the different kinds of editing, as well as tips for your self-editing process. Plus, I share my insights from my latest edit on Map of the […]
Creativity, Artificial Intelligence, And Time Off With Max Frenzel
Jun 08, 2020
As writers, we use tools every day — from the laptop we write on, to the internet we research with, and the social media sites we use to reach readers. We are used to using digital tools to enhance our author life, but could we really work with artificial intelligence to push our creativity to […]
How To Take Your Author Career To The Next Level With Mark Dawson
May 31, 2020
Are you ready to take your author career to the next level? In this wide-ranging interview, Mark Dawson gives tips on how to level up your books, your email list, and your advertising. In the intro, good news on book sales from New Zealand post-lockdown [The Guardian], why Joe Rogan's podcast deal with Spotify is […]
Writing Tips: How Character Flaws Shape Story With Will Storr
May 25, 2020
How can you create characters with unique and interesting flaws that lead into plots that will enliven your stories? In today's interview, Will Storr explains the science of storytelling. In the intro, German booksellers and the challenges of re-opening [The Bookseller], Facebook launches Shops meaning more opportunities for direct sales [The Verge], Facebook Live replay […]
The 7-Figure One Person Creative Business With Elaine Pofeldt
May 18, 2020
What if you could do work you love, earn great money — and have a lifestyle you enjoy? In this interview, Elaine Pofeldt talks about businesses that are doing just that and gives tips on how to get there, including ways to make more money as an author. In the intro, I talk about Apple […]
Great Stories Don’t Write Themselves: How To Develop Strong Fiction Ideas With Larry Brooks
May 11, 2020
We all want to write the best book we can — but how can we make sure the story is strong enough to make it worthwhile writing in the first place? In this interview, Larry Brooks gives 4 criteria for a great story and 8 steps for your novel premise. In the introduction, FindawayVoices releases […]
Writing And Selling Short Fiction With Matty Dalrymple
May 04, 2020
Writing short fiction can be useful for licensing and self-publishing income, or using them to grow your list and connect with readers. There are many more opportunities for shorts in the digital world and in today's interview, Matty Dalrymple gives plenty of ideas that you can use in your author business. In the intro, the […]
Writing And Working Together As A Creative Couple With Jeff Adams And Will Knauss
Apr 27, 2020
Is it possible to write together if you are partners in life as well as business? How can a community come together in the wake of difficulties? Plus, how podcasting can be an effective part of author marketing. All this and more in discussion with Jeff and Will from The Big Gay Fiction Podcast. In […]
Building A Unique Author Brand With Gail Carriger
Apr 20, 2020
How do you intentionally create an author brand that resonates with your readers? How can you write the books you love and make a successful living as a full-time author? All this and more in today's interview with Gail Carriger. In the introduction, I talk about some of the impacts of COVID19 on the publishing […]
How To Stay Creative In Difficult Times With Mark McGuinness
Apr 13, 2020
How do you deal with fear and uncertainty during these difficult times? How can you craft a new creative routine when life is so disrupted? How can you make the most of an online business now and build for the future? I discuss all this and more with Mark McGuinness on today's show. In the […]
How To Sell Your Books In Bulk And Make More Money As An Author With David Chilton
Apr 06, 2020
What do you really care about? Rankings on Amazon or money in your bank account? In this interview, David Chilton shares how you can sell books in bulk to companies resulting in a big pay-day — but no ‘bestseller' tag. This is a fascinating discussion that will challenge your definition of success and — hopefully […]
How To Get Your Book Into Libraries And Bookstores With Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Mar 30, 2020
We are writers, but we are readers first! Many of us grew up in the corners of libraries and still spend our money on books from bookstores, but did you know that it is possible to get your books into libraries and bookstores as an independent author? Mark Leslie Lefebvre gives some tips in today's […]
Keep Going: How To Be Creative For The Long-Term With Austin Kleon
Mar 23, 2020
What does it take to be creative over the long-term, especially in these challenging times? In today's interview, Austin Kleon gives his thoughts on how to Keep Going. In the introduction, I talk about my thoughts around dealing with coronavirus, plus Sanctuary, Retreat, Belonging: The Importance of Home in Difficult Times, My tips on […]
A Career In Writing With Danielle Trussoni
Mar 16, 2020
The publishing industry has changed so much in the last decade and in today's interview, I talk to Danielle Trussoni about how her writer's life has shifted — both in what she writes, how she publishes and how she reaches readers. In the intro, I talk about the UK ending VAT on ebooks [BBC], why […]
The Career Author With J Thorn And Zach Bohannon
Mar 09, 2020
What does it take to build a full-time career from your writing? In today's show, I talk to J. Thorn and Zach Bohannon about some of their lessons learned from the first two years of full-time author entrepreneur life, plus co-writing, in-person experiences, and more. In the intro, London Book Fair cancellation [BBC] and why […]
Opportunities In Audiobook Publishing With Michele Cobb
Mar 02, 2020
Audiobooks are the fastest-growing segment in publishing and increasingly, a welcome extra revenue for authors and publishers alike. In this interview, Michele Cobb from the Audiobook Publishers Association talks about the expansion of the market as well as tips for marketing audio. In the introduction, I talk about Ingram Spark's Catalog Integrity Announcement which included […]
How To Find And Pitch A Literary Agent With Barbara Poelle
Feb 24, 2020
Authors have more possibilities than ever when it comes to publishing their books, but if you want a traditional publishing deal, then it's worth considering how an agent can help sell your book. In today's interview, literary agent, Barbara Poelle, gives tips for story craft, query letters, how to find and pitch an agent, plus […]
Writing Fight Scenes With Female Characters With Aiki Flinthart
Feb 17, 2020
Whether you write fantasy with sword fights, historical fiction, domestic noir, or thrillers, chances are you will construct a fight scene at some point in your author career. In today's interview, martial artist Aiki Flinthart gives some ideas for writing fight scenes with female characters, whether they are trained fighters or in an unprepared situation. […]
From Blog To Book And Repurposing Content With Amy Woods
Feb 10, 2020
Writing a non-fiction book can provide you with authority in your niche, lead-gen for your speaking and services, and extra income. In this interview, Amy Woods, expert on repurposing content, explains the challenges she faced when turning her blog into a book, plus some tips on content marketing for non-fiction authors. In the intro, the […]
Writing Crime: Myths And Misconceptions About The FBI With Jerri Williams
Feb 03, 2020
Most of us are law-abiding citizens, but it's clear that writers and readers are obsessed with crime — and those who fight it. In today's show, former FBI agent, Jerri Williams explains some of the myths and misconceptions about the FBI, and why true crime podcasting has turned into an unexpected new career. In the […]
Empowering Authors Around Copyright With Rebecca Giblin
Jan 27, 2020
Your author career is in your hands. Publishers are not charities and even if you have an agent, you need to know about the importance and value of copyright so you can make informed and empowered decisions about your writing. If you’re an indie author, you still need to understand copyright, because when you sign […]
How To Pitch Your Book To Agents, Publishers And Readers With Kate Harrison
Jan 20, 2020
What is the best way to pitch your book to an agent or publisher? What's the best way to write a sales description that pitches your book to a potential reader if you're independent? How can you use the pitch technique to write a book that stands a better chance of selling? All this and […]
How Will Self-Publishing Change In The 2020s? Thoughts From Joanna Penn And Orna Ross
Jan 17, 2020
The 2010s saw the birth and growth of the independent author movement, so what do the 2020s have in store? In this episode, Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss some trends for authors and publishing in the next decade, as well as some predictions on some things that may well happen in the next decade. […]
How To Focus And Be Indistractable With Nir Eyal
Jan 13, 2020
Do you want to focus and get more writing done this year? Do you want to step away from the many distractions online and achieve your creative goals? In today's show, I discuss how to be indistractible with Nir Eyal. In the introduction, I talk about some of the challenges in writing for audio, and […]
Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) For Authors With Brad Barrett From ChooseFI
Jan 06, 2020
What difference would financial independence make in your life? What changes are you willing to make to get to that point? In this episode, I talk to Brad Barrett about the Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) movement and why it's about pursuing choice rather than denial, as well as some of the money choices we […]
Operation Evergreen: My Creative And Business Goals For 2020
Jan 01, 2020
I love the New Year! It really is my favorite time of the year and I kick up a notch in terms of getting new projects started as well as finishing up anything left over from last year. 2020 also feels special because it's the start of a new decade and I am truly excited […]