Podcast - SURF MASTERY - TopPodcast.com

**121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink** Jun 16, 2025

Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable?
In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing.
Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression.
Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control.
Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form.
Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be.
http://www.brinksurf.com
https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en
www.surfmastery.com
**Key Points**
The importance of the surfing style over the type of surfboard was emphasized, highlighting the value of constantly changing boards to improve one's surfing skills.
Donald Brink discussed the benefits of challenging oneself with difficult surfboards to discover deeper aspects of one's surfing and personal growth.
The conversation touched on the idea that societal and industry influences might shape people's preferences in surfboards more than personal preference.
Donald Brink shared his experience with creating and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a profound and enlightening exercise in understanding his own surfing and design principles.
The dimensions and unique features of Donald Brink's narrow surfboards were discussed, including the challenges and learnings from riding them.
Donald Brink mentioned that Dane, a fellow surfer, showed interest in and eventually rode one of his narrow surfboards, taking it on a memorable trip to Iceland.
The discussion explored the combination of narrowness with modern materials and design elements in surfboards, a concept Donald Brink is pioneering.
The potential of narrow surfboards in wave pools was considered, with the suggestion that they could offer unique and advantageous surfing experiences.
**Outline**
**Surfing Philosophy and Personal Growth**
Donald Brink emphasizes that the way one surfs is more important than the type of surfboard used.
Donald discusses the value of constantly changing surfboards to challenge oneself and improve surfing skills.
Donald shares personal experiences of riding very narrow and difficult-to-ride surfboards to discover more about oneself and improve surfing technique.
**Surfboard Design and Preferences**
Donald and Michael discuss the influence of the surf industry on surfboard preferences, comparing it to the standardization of the Fender Stratocaster in the music industry.
They debate whether surfboard preferences are truly personal or influenced by societal and industry standards.
Donald mentions that professionals often use different types of surfboards outside of competition, indicating a divergence from industry-driven preferences.
**Challenges and Learning Through Surfing**
Donald explains the benefits of riding difficult surfboards, even in challenging conditions, to gain deeper insights into one's surfing abilities and improve overall technique.
He discusses the importance of recognizing one's limitations and frustrations as a means to identify areas for improvement.
Donald shares his experience of building and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a humbling and enlightening exercise.
**Surfboard Specifications and Design**
Donald details the specifications of the narrow surfboards he has designed, including dimensions and unique design elements.
He discusses the challenges and learnings from riding these boards, including the need for more rocker due to their narrowness.
Donald mentions the interest of other surfers, like Dane, in trying these unique boards and the feedback received.
**Surfing as Art or Sport**
The conversation touches on the philosophical question of whether surfing is an art, a sport, or both, with a promise to delve deeper into this topic in a future episode.
**Transcription:**
**Donald Brink**
Really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration, your surfing, you start to realize... I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride, and I rode them in—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many...
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was two quotes from part one of a long conversation I had with Donald Brink. Part two will be published next week. This will be Donald's third appearance on the podcast, first back in episode 42 and episode 76. So if you enjoy this and you want to go back, those are the numbers. I reached out to Donald to discuss, is surfing an art or a sport? And that will be in part two. It's an hour-long deep dive into that. But the first sort of 25 minutes of that conversation was a good catch-up and a dive into what Donald has been up to since we last spoke. And of course, his deep and philosophical thoughts about surfing and surfboard design. And as with every conversation with Donald, there's so many gold nuggets in here. Donald is a great thinker and an incredible surfboard shaper and designer. You can check out more from Donald at brinksurf.com—it's b-r-i-n-k surf.com—and of course at Donald Brink on Instagram. Did you hear the one with Aaron James?
**Donald Brink**
Another—okay—must have been.
**Michael Frampton**
Aaron James, episode 111 I think. The audio quality wasn't great from his end, but it's worth a listen because you'd love it. He's a philosopher and we just talked at the, you know, all about philosophy.
**Donald Brink**
You've interviewed him before? No? Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
Right?
**Donald Brink**
I remember there was somebody on philosophy. I'll look forward to that. The last one that comes to mind that I'm just remembering, maybe I'm missing one or two, but it was you discussing the timing of entering waves, jumping onto the board rather than paddling into it, and you realize they can push and pull that bandwidth of when you're actually taking off on the wave. I thought that was—I'd never heard it. It was just a passing comment to you, but I gleaned from that. I was like, it's really interesting to do that, to stand in the shallows and not paddle for waves as part of wave training.
**Michael Frampton**
For beginners, yeah. Whenever I take a beginner out, I say, what are you paddling for? You're standing in waist-deep water. Just jump because the wave's going so slow. If you wait till the wave hits the back of your board and you just jump forward a little bit, you're trimming and then you can—you don't have to paddle. That's how my kids play and naturally catch waves just by playing. And it takes the pressure off having to paddle. Because everyone, you know, that's the first thing that beginners complain: "My arms are so tired." And it's, well, save your arms for the pop-up.
**Donald Brink**
Right. Yeah. I've been spending a little bit of time and sat some lectures with Rob Case, the surf paddling instructor. And I'm sure you guys all know his work. And if you haven't looked at it, I would encourage one to explore that because most of surfing really is paddling. Yeah. And he's the specialist in the paddling field. And the short story is, it was just like being able to ask him questions. And what they tap into is intuition of what they've learned, both in formal study and in the hypothesis of studying what's actually going on when we are paddling or taking off on a wave in particular. And surfboards are very inefficient at moving across or through—generally rather—in water. And yeah, just like the studies just show how radical it is going from submerged to now planing and therefore now standing and then surfing. We're swimming at best for most of the time.
**Michael Frampton**
I know. Yeah, I've had Rob on the show a few times and I've done his course. It was amazing. But that's why I surf a boat nowadays. It's easier.
**Donald Brink**
Love you. Yeah, it's... There's nothing wrong with that, and I still think surfing comes down to preference. And it's a word someone used in the water one day. You know, like some people ask you stuff in the water. It happens to me now and again. I try and be, like, not rude, but really hyper-focused. And somebody said, "What are you riding today?" And it was actually a very traditional-looking board, which they were surprised at. Because I've been known to ride—I'm always testing and trying new things, right? And I was like, yeah, it's just really good to palate cleanse and ride a standard shortboard from time to time. And I do it because it keeps my surfing honest and my design mind honest to be like, well, this is supposed to work. Most people prefer this and I know you can get it. And it's—sometimes I didn't make that board. So there's zero judgment on what I could or should have done. And they were like, yep, that's really good. It's nice that you're doing that. I think it's a good responsibility. At the end of the day, it's just down to preference. Everyone knows what they prefer in a board. They usually don't know what they need. And it hit me, like, really hard—that statement. I was like, this really is down to preference. Like there's no... There's things I know that I like in a board and you don't really want to impose that onto other people as a suggestion, even at times.
**Michael Frampton**
But do you think that is really people's preference? I don't. Because I think we chatted last time. It's like the Fender Strat is like people's preference in guitar. Well, that's only because it happens to be first. It was like the first guitar that was really well made and all the studio musicians used it. And then it became a standard. Whereas with surfboards, I think it's just—that's just what the surf industry pushed on people. And that's what the pros were riding. I don't know if it's a preference because of society or whether it's an actual literal preference. And I saw Steph Gilmore in the water surfing good waves. She wasn't on a performance shortboard. She was on a fish. And then when you see pros outside of competition, they're not usually on performance shortboards.
**Donald Brink**
This is a great point, and I think you're right. And I think that preference could be perceived as being accepted. So this person's comment—and I know this guy fairly well—he doesn't want to be seen on anything else. So he would prefer to endear a Stratocaster on stage in this example, right? And yet a hollow-bodied Telecaster might be better for what they're playing. And that's a great point because, yeah, that's what we've been marketed to and that's what the biggest companies are consistently marketing or manufacturing, right? It's still a valid point though because what he prefers is important to him. And that's where your surfing is your own. And that's both the biggest blessing and comes with a huge responsibility if you want to cultivate it. And once you realize it's up to you, as long as you're not in anyone's way, you can have a lot of fun in the sea. That's the golden rule and it's taken years to really get as succinct as that—like, be in the right part of the wave doing the right thing and not being in anyone's way—and you are welcome. Fish.
**Michael Frampton**
Amphibian, say.
**Donald Brink**
Should I?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I agree with all of that. I do think it's a little bit short-sighted when you see people, if their preference comes from the surf industry or whatever. They just maybe haven't thought it through. Hey look, I'll put my hand up. When it's six foot and barreling, yeah, I want to be on a performance shortboard. The rocker fits the wave. I'm more likely to come out of a barrel, of course. But how often is the surf like that, really?
**Donald Brink**
Right.
**Michael Frampton**
So it's—
**Donald Brink**
Okay, let's expand this conversation then to... Is it worth trying to ride something that's really difficult to ride? Because I see most people only riding things that are easier to ride. Ciao. I challenge myself to ride very difficult surfboards sometimes. And I don't have as good a session. But because my surfing is my own and what I'm getting out of it is what I'm willing to get out of it. And sometimes you go really deep in trying to find... Parts of yourself, really. Or parts of the wave that then bring out these joys that you've been searching for. So when the waves are good, it's like, are you willing to waste good waves trying to ride something different? And it could be to prove a point. Well, that's now a little immature, but if it's at the expense of searching the depths of oneself within surfing, I find that very interesting and not often seen, shown, or even talked about. And I do think it's a developing category of what surfing is to somebody. Because it's... it's yours to yourself. Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, you're right. I mean, if you want to take even a small-wave performance shortboard out when the waves aren't great—and maybe you'd have more fun and catch more waves on a hybrid or a fish—you want to go out there and challenge yourself and keep the board on rail and... yeah. I mean, that kind of board, almost if you're planing and going straight, it's going to slow down and you're going to bog. But if you're staying close to the whitewater and surfing rail to rail, you're going to have... find that feeling. There is a thing—there's a detail that you've got to realize, listeners—is you might go down to Lower Trestles, let's say, for example, and let's say it's shoulder-high Lower Trestles. You're going to—it might look like a slow, soft wave. But the way that the water is drawing off the bottom, the way the current and the bathymetry, the way that the swell angles in towards you a little bit actually makes the wave a lot more rippable than it looks. But if you were to go down to San O or Doheny and the waves are bigger, that might look more powerful from the beach, but you're going to—and you take the same board out—you're going to find it a lot harder to surf a bigger wave at a softer break than you would a smaller wave at a more rippable break. So learning to look at those details of the refraction of the swell, the way that water's drawing off the bottom, will help you choose what sort of surfboard to take out as well. So there's a fine line between... what's your skill level, what's the wave like, what are your intentions to the way to surf. But I agree with you. If you want to challenge yourself and become a better surfer, yeah. A board with a bit more rocker is going to force you to—it only really works if it's transitioning from rail to rail.
**Donald Brink**
Well, that's one example, but extend it even further. Like, what if you rode a really flat-rockered board that's too small for you or a really big board? If you constantly just change the variable of the board—because everyone, it's kind of intuitive really, you'd think I'd be so into the board, and yet it's like, I get to make these things all day and I love it—but really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration—your surfing—you start to realize which parts you need to work on, which parts you're really good at. And that's what—as succinct as I can be—it's are you in the right part of the wave, doing the right thing and not being in somebody's way. And switching up boards, no matter what the condition, it shows itself best when you're riding the wrong board on the wrong day. Because you start to realize, I should have been over there on that wave. And until you're frustrated by that, you won't know that that's where you need and want to be and continue to strive to be there, right? So the wrong lines because your board wouldn't let you is really helpful too. So you're wasting waves to learn. I don't know any better. It's a long exercise, but that's what life is. And to share within life is part of that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I agree with that as well. I mean, when I first bought a longboard, my shortboarding improved tenfold just because I had to learn how to surf a much bigger board than I was used to. Look at the wave differently and predict it more. And then you jump back on a shortboard, you know, wow. Thank you. So yeah. Well, I mean, how far can you push that? How ridiculous of a surfboard can you ride? And, you know, is there a surfboard that would improve your surfing more than a different surfboard?
**Donald Brink**
100%. I set out on that question. I try and be really honest about what works and what doesn't work. And there's a lot of boards I've built that do not work. And I had to—you have to learn that, right? And within that endless mystery of what works and what doesn't and how hydrodynamics come into play, I set out on a goal to see how much feedback I could get out of a board that I built that was essentially very difficult to ride, and yet the sensory download from a wave ride, if I could pull it off, would be the highest. And I landed up on—it would be the narrowest board possible. Because I think a lot of boards can be most easily, comfortably designed as to going wide, right? So I set out to do the exact opposite and see how far I could push it. And it was one of the most humbling and now enlightening exercises I've ever set out on. And yeah, it has changed my life because of these effects. And now even the designs within all the other boards... but what it did was let me understand what surfing is to me, and which parts I enjoy. And the best parts were—it was nothing I was trying to impose or imply on anybody else, except I knew the learnings would live on into the rest of my work or work I get to do for somebody else. So to wrap this whole thing up, it would be—I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride and I rode—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many inherent flaws that were very easily fixable, but you couldn't really feel them because they were muted or disguised in the designs of comfortable boards. And what it did was—I could walk away from that in my surfing shoes definitely improved. And now you can just jump on them—any board around the world—and have fun, which to me really is the goal. Can you travel without boards and just ride one you find for a hundred bucks? And now you don't have a bag for you and you have the most fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, you want to have the ability to be able to ride anything, anywhere in the sea, and be able to be safe and respectable and just have fun with that relationship with you and the ocean. And that, to me, has always been an "any board" policy. So that's what happened to me and gosh, it was rewarding. I haven't shared or shown any of them yet because what happened was—it was so profound that I was like, man... So I started collecting them. I think I'm on board 11 right now. And I will present them as a show in a series. I'd love to do an art show, actually, because together they will make sense because you can see the lineage. Yeah, things have just kept popping up and there's attention to other projects right now, but it doesn't matter. It's forever green. So... within the next year, I'm sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. How narrow are we talking?
**Donald Brink**
Well, the first board I did was 12 and 3/8.
**Michael Frampton**
Your foot? 11?
**Donald Brink**
Specifically. And so you ended up having to ride both toes forward so that you could get a cleaner trim. There was just—there was so much learning on it. And the entire board was made just off-cycle, upcycled offcut pieces. It was such a fun thing. But the last iteration has been—and the first asymmetrical one—they've all been symmetrical to stay pure to not have too many variables within the design elements. It's like, okay, this is an asymmetry doing its thing. It's just design problems. The last one is 6'5.5" by 14 7/8" by 2 3/8"—two and a half-ish. And that board's a brute. See, fantastic. I did take it to a wave this season, got a few waves, got absolutely blasted on a few, but it was like I had to feel it in juice with warm water if I really believed in it, you know? Definitely turned some heads, but yeah, that was not the point. The point is trying to learn who you are and how design works. And it was so—you get so used to it and so comfortable on those boards that other boards actually feel so clunky and tubby and slow. It's... it's just interesting is all it is.
**Michael Frampton**
So that board—the last iteration of it—does it have more of a traditional performance rocker as well?
**Donald Brink**
Well, all the rules and rules—preconceived numbers—are out the window. So the rocker numbers would be—they're ill-quoted because the board's so narrow and so straight for so long. Thank you... The end points, like, you actually have to put so much more rocker in the board because it's not in the outline. But when you come off the bottom, the board gets onto rail so much sooner, 'cause you don't have a big catamaran, so to speak, that you can fit more rocker in. So you end up surfing way more curve. It's like those old '90s shortboards—were super rocked up. But then it's like, they were narrower. You see the relationship between rail line, rocker, volume, plan shape, and overall wetted surface. It's just fun. Wow.
**Michael Frampton**
Have Dane or Pat been interested in surfing this type of board?
**Donald Brink**
Yeah, Dane... Dane ran into me at the beach one day and he's always an—I mean, we are such good friends now. It's such a joy to work alongside him and just talk surfing and share boards sometimes. But he looked in the back of the van and he was like, "What's that?" And he was so... it was version two he saw. Because like I said, I haven't shown or shared any of these. It's been a self-guarded exploration. It was a cold day. We were down at Santa, and he just threw on a towel, pulled on a pair of trunks, and just jumped in. He just paddled it straight out and caught three waves, which, to be honest, he didn't surf very well. And the feedback loop of where to stand is learning. And once you know where to stand, then you start putting your surfing together. But he came in and he's like, "Just build me one." And I did build him one of those. So his was number three of those in the series. And yeah, he ended up taking it on a trip and—yeah, it's kind of a memorable story—but pushed it in some very big, incredible waves in Iceland of all places. The only board he took as well. It's such an honor. But yeah, there's some reward to be had. And yet it's still in its infant stages.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, I'm keen to... I'm sure you'll release some photos and footage or something along this. If you can do an art show, I mean.
**Donald Brink**
It just doesn't make sense out of context. Even this conversation is all silly. I guess if you're listening to this and you're like, what the hell is this guy on about? My point is, change up your boards and challenge yourself. You'll find out what your surfing is. And you can transpose what you need to work on into any board, and you'll learn quicker and go further faster. I do like narrow boards. And this project will see the light of day in context of its growth. It makes more sense than just talking about a narrow board now. But it's...
**Michael Frampton**
An extreme that I haven't seen been explored. I'm exploring extremes. I love my 11-foot glider. That's extremely long, extremely heavy, extremely thick, extremely straight rails. Right. And then you've got it—the people, we've gone as wide as we can, the Potato from Firewire. It doesn't get any more wide and piggy than that. We've gone as short as we can...
**Donald Brink**
Right.
**Michael Frampton**
We've gone thin. But no one's—this is pioneering stuff, maybe.
**Donald Brink**
I actually—it's funny—I started off with trying to be as high as I can arrive for the sensation, like I said. And then what's funny is you actually land up in these thought trails. And before long you'll land up and you start looking at what was essentially the start of it all—was the alaia—because the trees were only that wide. And so when you look at those Hawaiian olas—and I just did make a hollow wooden version just to honor the thoughts of the original ola—I actually haven't ridden that board yet. But within context of the show and the movement of design, I was like, wow. I mean, I think they were designing within parameters of what materials they had. Skinny trees, not many of them. And yet the designs were hydrodynamically sound for the time and therefore would hold up today because water doesn't change. But yeah, it's kind of all been done before, but no... I think you just don't stop exploring the parts that are difficult. And they fascinate me—not to be right—but you find yourself and who you are within those things, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, but the narrowness hasn't been combined with modern materials, volume, buoyancy, concave, rocker, which is obviously what you're doing.
**Donald Brink**
Yeah, for sure. It is fun. And you see parts of the modern shortboard—you pick it up and it starts after a few minutes of just holding it and being around them. They stop looking odd and you kind of—they get comfortable within your mind very quickly. Maybe I'm just around them so much, but I've seen people react that way and turn the reaction into a response. And it's... times one's in this little—your reaction. Yeah, it's funny.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I can imagine it's... and it's an extremely responsive, touchy board when you first get it going.
**Donald Brink**
My two cents to date on why I don't ride them all the time is—they get really boring unless the waves are past, like... they don't even have to be big. They can be small and somewhat powerful as fun. But once it gets past shoulder-high, you can... you can get out of second and third and into fourth and even sometimes fifth gear. And it's incredible. You get lost in time and space. But anything smaller than that, you just can't get out of second gear. You know how much the board has to give. And you just start frustrating yourself. And these weren't like world-class good waves, right? In terms of a general comment, they were more just—there was enough room on which to move. And unpowerful waves that nobody wanted on those days were all kinds of fun at speeds that were unfathomable on any other board. So there is room for it, I think. Yeah, not for many. *Laughs* Yeah. Yeah, it's fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, when you're surfing from rail to rail...
**Donald Brink**
Yeah, if you can isolate a rail and have room enough to stay on it for as long as you possibly want to or can...
**Michael Frampton**
The width of the surfboard is irrelevant anyway. Isn't that really?
**Donald Brink**
That's where I think the gearing comes in. It's like, man, you just start going so fast. You're drawing these long turns over sections and without losing speed because your wetted surface is so much smaller. So if you're having to keep weaving and you're doing it so quickly that—I wouldn't say it's boring, it's just less efficient than you know what it feels like. As soon as you get on the rail, you can just stay on there. So if you've got room to be able to do that, you start doing it. That's all you want to do. And because you can on the narrow board, it's like, man, well, right. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'll tell him.
**Michael Frampton**
I imagine it going well in a wave pool, perhaps.
**Donald Brink**
I haven't been to a pool since I started making these. I've thought the same thing over and over. Same thing. It's not a huge wave, but it's a focused curl. Yeah, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't go well. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
When it's very... predictable and consistent.
**Donald Brink**
Right. I think you'd want a bigger pool, to be honest. I mean... I wonder if you'd get better lines. I think you'd draw better. And you're not taking off into the tube, which is nice. You're rolling in. So that would be really... of value there. That'd be advantageous. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, you mentioned them being art. Which segues us into what I wanted to talk about, which was—is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe and listen to next week's episode, part two with Donald Brink: "Is Surfing an Art or a Sport—or Both?" We heard a little bit about that in last week's episode with Tony Roberts. He's on the sports side. For more surfing podcast episodes, there is a huge back catalogue. And of course, if you want more tips, some free PDFs and advice, etc., go tosurfmastery.com. Until next week, keep surfing.

121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink (part 1)
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**120 Still Ripping at 60: Tony Roberts on Surfing Performance and Longevity** Jun 05, 2025

What if your best surfing is still ahead of you—even in your sixties?
Many surfers fear they’ll lose their edge with age, but Tony Roberts proves that it’s possible to surf better than ever through intentional lifestyle choices, foundational training, and a lifelong commitment to progression. In this episode, we explore how rethinking surfing as a sport, not just a pastime, can lead to lasting performance and deeper fulfillment.
Learn why starting with longboarding could be the single best thing you do for your shortboard technique.
Discover how the right mindset between sets—using mantras and mindfulness—can transform your in-wave performance.
Get inspired by Tony’s radically focused lifestyle design, optimized entirely around surfing longevity and peak performance.
Hit play now to uncover how Tony Roberts has redefined aging through surfing—and how you can too.
Tony’s Website etc:
https://trsurftrips.com/home/
http://www.youtube.com/@RealSurfStories
https://www.instagram.com/trsurfing/?hl=en
Tony on Surf Splendor Podcast:
https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/025-tony-roberts/
Episode Music:
https://www.instagram.com/tuanizmusic/?hl=en
**Key Points**
Tony Roberts views his relationship with the ocean as the focus of his life, aiming to maximize enjoyment and performance in surfing.
Tony Roberts' passion for surfing began at age eight, learning to surf in beginner-friendly waves at Capitola, California, and progressing to more challenging waves.
Tony Roberts' passion and skill in surfing were significantly shaped by learning to surf in beginner-friendly waves with proper technique at a young age.
Tony Roberts' desire to be a better surfer was cultivated through skateboarding, where he could quantify his progression and was mentored by top skaters who were also great surfers.
Tony Roberts sees surfing as a sport, influenced by his skateboarding background, despite the artistic elements it possesses, and focuses on performance and technique.
Tony Roberts believes that learning traditional longboarding in his forties significantly improved his shortboarding by enhancing his foundational surfing skills.
Tony Roberts advises beginners to approach surfing with self-respect, starting with a beginner board in beginner waves and mastering each step before progressing, to avoid surfing like a 'kook'.
Tony Roberts attributes his longevity and performance in surfing to his 100% commitment to the sport, including lifestyle choices that support his surfing goals, and not compromising for other priorities.
Tony Roberts' surf trips offer personalized packages to the best waves in Central America and the Caribbean, including filming, coaching, and creating trip movies for participants.
Tony Roberts runs two YouTube channels, 'Real Surf Stories' and 'Real Skate Stories', to celebrate the legacies of great surfers and skateboarders and inspire others with their stories.
**Outline**
**Tony Roberts' Relationship with Surfing**
Tony Roberts' relationship with the ocean is the focus of their life, aiming to maximize enjoyment and performance in the ocean.
Surfing has been a consistent focus throughout Tony's life, from filmmaking and photography centered around surfing and skateboarding to the act of surfing itself.
Tony's passion for surfing started at the age of eight, growing up in Capitola, California, which provided ideal beginner spots for learning.
Tony's progression in surfing was significantly influenced by skateboarding, particularly at Skatepark Soquel, where they were mentored by Kevin Reed.
Tony's desire to surf faster and bigger waves was inspired by surf movies featuring surfers like Jerry Lopez and Reno Abellira.
Tony approached surfing as a sport rather than an art, influenced by the skateboarding culture of the 70s.
Tony's perspective on surfing as a sport has not changed, even though they appreciate the artistic aspects of traditional longboarding.
Tony's foundation in surfing improved significantly when they started longboarding in their forties, enhancing their bottom turns, trim, and board speed.
Tony emphasizes the importance of learning to surf on a longboard before transitioning to a shortboard, highlighting the benefits of core strength and proper technique.
Tony advises beginners to approach surfing with self-respect, starting with a beginner board in beginner waves and mastering each step before progressing.
Tony believes that skipping steps in the learning process leads to surfing like a 'kook' and emphasizes the importance of learning on a longer board for good style.
Tony uses mantras like 'crisp takeoff' and 'form' to maintain performance and focus during surfing sessions.
**Surfing as Art vs. Sport**
Tony Roberts views surfing primarily as a sport, influenced by their skateboarding background, focusing on performance and technique.
Tony acknowledges the artistic elements in surfing, particularly in the way surfers approach waves and the fluidity of their movements.
Michael Frampton sees surfing as bridging the gap between sport and art, emphasizing rhythm, timing, and technique.
Tony agrees that surfing can be both an art and a sport, requiring a free-flowing and not mechanical approach to look good.
**Training and Lifestyle for Surfing**
Tony Roberts emphasizes the importance of a holistic approach to training and lifestyle to improve surfing, including gym workouts, diet, spiritual development, and yoga.
Tony believes that yoga is the best workout for surfers, balancing the body and compensating for the unbalanced workout surfing provides.
Tony's commitment to surfing influences every decision in their life, including diet, relationships, and work, prioritizing surfing above all.
Tony raised their daughter with a focus on surfing, providing an international and universal education that has made her an inspirational adult.
Tony's lifestyle, centered around surfing, has led to a fulfilling relationship with the ocean and a strong bond with their daughter.
**Surfing Techniques and Mindset**
Tony Roberts highlights the importance of a 'crisp takeoff' in surfing, defined as a perfect pop-up from hands to feet in a millisecond.
Tony emphasizes the significance of timing in surfing, distinguishing between quick and fast movements.
Tony advises maintaining focus and using techniques like concentrating on breath, returning to the present moment, and visualizing maneuvers to enhance performance.
Tony uses mantras and visualization to stay focused and adaptable when surfing, inspired by Kelly Slater's approach to reading waves.
**Tony Roberts' Surf Trips and YouTube Channels**
Tony Roberts offers surf trip packages through their website TRSurfTrips.com, providing personalized trips to the best waves in Central America and the Caribbean.
Tony's surf trips include transport, accommodation, filming of participants' waves, and optional coaching, culminating in a trip movie edit as a souvenir.
Tony has two YouTube channels, 'Real Surf Stories' and 'Real Skate Stories', dedicated to celebrating the legacies of great surfers and skateboarders.
Tony's YouTube channels allow them to utilize their filmmaking skills and share inspiring stories from the surfing and skateboarding communities.
**Transcript:**
**Michael Frampton:** All right. Well, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Stoked to have you on board. And I'll just do a quick intro and then we'll get into it. , Tony spent the first little chapter of his adult life as a pioneer in the filmmaking and photography surf industry. And then the second chapter of your life, let's call it, you, dedicated yourself to becoming a better surfer into you're now in your sixties now and surfing better than ever.
, You almost epitomized the ethos of this show. And my first question, Tony, is describe to me in the listener , your current relationship with the ocean, how it's evolved recently, and what has remained consistent.
**Tony Roberts:** My current relationship with the Ocean is. The focus of my life. [00:01:00] So that means everything that I do is in an effort to maximize my enjoyment and performance in the ocean. , What has remained consistent is that the ocean has been the focus, whether it was, as you said in the first chapter of my life, which was, or the first half of my life I should say, which was filmmaking and photography, which was centered around shooting, surfing and skateboarding, which is kind of the roots of that goes back to the ocean.
Then the last half of my life has been about actually the act of surfing. So all the land stuff I still skateboard. The [00:02:00] skateboarding, the training, the nutrition, the mental and physical flexibility is for the surfing.
**Michael Frampton:** Wow. So surfing in the ocean has remained consistent. Where, when did that passion start?
**Tony Roberts:** When I was eight years old, I was very fortunate that I was raised right on the sand in Capitola, California, which is on the very, very inside of the Monterey Bay. So it has all these perfect little grom spots. So it's the perfect place to learn how to surf. And then as you go up the coast north. You have point break after point break after point break that gets bigger and more exposed to swells.
So it was just the ideal learning ladder to climb. It went from capitola to trees to privates, to sharks cove to the hook [00:03:00] to pleasure point to the west side of Santa Cruz, steamer Lane, Stockton Avenue, and then up the coast, which is open ocean. So you have Wadel Creek, Scots Creek, and then started traveling to Hawaii, Australia, Indonesia, Peru, and the whole world.
**Michael Frampton:** . That's interesting. It's, it's a common thread with a lot of great surfers is they were exposed to good beginner waves very early on in life. Do, do you think that really did shape your surfing passion? That, that, uh, we'll call it a gentle, gentle, or appropriate introduction to surfing at the right age?
**Tony Roberts:** A hundred percent. Not only did it form my passion, because I saw all these people that were surfing and skateboarding, and this was the seventies, so it was right in the middle of the hippie era. So it was these free and free love. My parents were hippies, and so I, I saw the passion around me and was able [00:04:00] to really have that injected into my early persona.
But more than that, I think the technique of learning at a beginner spot, where ideally if you're gonna learn to surf, it's at a young age, and at any age it should be on a slow rolling wave with a big board. So you can learn the basics and the trim and the core strength before you have a short board.
And you're, I. Able to learn proper technique. So yes, growing up in a beginner friendly zone and being able to graduate up was crucial in my not only passion but skill.
**Michael Frampton:** . Once you'd sort of clicked onto surfing and were surrounded by better surfers and better waves, was the desire to, [00:05:00] to be one of the better surfers?
Was that, how did that form
**Tony Roberts:** Yes, absolutely that was really cultivated skateboarding because at Skate Park So Cal, which was close to my house, I was able to really quantify my progression. Whereas surfing, that's kind of hard to do, but a lot of the best skaters. Skate parks, So Cal were of course great surfers.
In particular, Kevin Reed, the guy who invented the aerial surfing was a pro surfer. Pro skateboarder, and he mentored me. So as a young kid, I was able to look at this amazing surfer, skateboarder and really quantify my progression. So I really wanted to be progressing and I wanted to be [00:06:00] the best guy for my age, and I wanted to win contests, surfing and skateboarding.
And I wanted to be able to surf the waves that I saw in the magazine. So that desire for progression was planted very early.
**Michael Frampton:** Was a big part of that. A desire to be able to surf faster and bigger waves.
**Tony Roberts:** Absolutely, we'd go to the surf movies and it was all about Jerry Lopez, Reno. Avalara getting goosebumps right now.
The, the big movie, you know, with the, with the soundtrack and, and the dramatic narration. It, it just got into your bones, it got into your blood. And I saw those waves and I wanted to surf 'em so bad. But also in the seventies, of course, it was the busting down the door era. And my friends were just all about [00:07:00] bk.
, James Jones. Uh, Rory Russell. But in reality, for me, it was all about Rabbit. Pt. Mp. I was really attracted to Australia, and as a very young kid, I knew. When I got the chance I was going to surf Kira Burley heads, and that was really my dream. So my entire youth surfing was working towards that.
**Michael Frampton:** More performance surfing rather than big wave surfing.
., Back then, particularly did you approach surfing as a sport or an art
**Tony Roberts:** as a sport, which didn't really exist yet? It was still very much [00:08:00] so. The, the flow and the hippie aspect of surfing, that's what was in the magazines. Hmm. And a surf photo it in the seventies was the wave. A surfer was a detail, but skateboarding was different. There was a lot of fisheye, close photos in the skateboard magazines where the action was the entire photo and the bowl or the ramp was a mere detail in the background.
And I was so influenced on the skateboarding end of things because I was 50 50 my whole life. And so I wanted to perform. I wanted those repetitions and so much so that surfing as a youth, if I didn't get a lot of waves, I would come in unsatisfied and go skate to be able [00:09:00] to fulfill that, that desire to be complete.
And so I think that it was very much a sport. For me personally in the age of it being an art.
**Michael Frampton:** Interesting. And has that changed? Do you still, do you see it as more of an art now?
**Tony Roberts:** No, not at all. It hasn't changed. Um, what has changed is that I love to ride traditional longboards. I love to ride single fins. I love to do a style of surfing that's very artistic, but it's in a process of becoming a more complete surfer. And I feel that those styles of surfing are incredibly technical in a different way.
But having done airs [00:10:00] surfing my entire life, starting when I was pre-teen and getting to a stage to where in my forties, wanting to learn traditional longboarding for the first time, I. And so I'm more driven to be a complete surfer and be as good of a surfer as I can be. It gets more intense as the years go on.
**Michael Frampton:** , Interesting. How did, you mentioned, uh, when you started, you started longboarding in your forties. How did that change or influence your shortboarding?
**Tony Roberts:** Wow. I, I have to say it was probably the most important thing I've ever done. , As my foundation became so much [00:11:00] better, my bottom turns trim, board speed, and I was very fortunate in that I was living in Costa Rica at the time. And a friend of mine, Chris Klo, started bringing down the best traditional longboarders in the world who were young guys, Alex Nost, Jared, Mel, Tyler Warren.
And when I saw those guys surf, I had a revelation and said, wow, I really want to learn to do this. And, uh, so I got to hang out with these guys, buy boards from them, learn to longboard surfing with them, and actively ask them, what am I doing wrong? How can I improve? And so they very transparently told me what I was doing wrong, what I was doing good.
[00:12:00] And that clinic of foundational surfing helped my shortboarding. By leaps and bounds.
**Michael Frampton:** . Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I agree. I've interviewed Bud Freis probably six or seven years ago, and that was one of his tips is to get a big old log and learn how to longboard best thing you can do for your short putting. I took his advice and yeah, it just, it makes you, it forces you to read the wave differently.
It slows you down. You've gotta predict your lines differently. You gotta be slow, slower, and more accurate with your movements. Lots of stuff. Footwork, lots of stuff.
**Tony Roberts:** Yes. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton:** , What aspects of longboarding do you think contributed to your, to, to what you just mentioned? Can you break it down a little bit for us?
**Tony Roberts:** Absolutely. [00:13:00] First and foremost, it is, I. When the waves aren't good for shortboarding, you're out there using a part of your brain that is very ambitious in trying to perform, not just enjoying nature and cruising and going through the motions. No really getting intense and trying to do something amazing.
And that is a day that if you're trying to shortboard, you're pretty much kidding yourself. And so a day that's maximum longboard, traditional longboarding is minimum at best shortboarding. So that's first and foremost. Secondly, the core strength required to properly trim and turn a longboard is the only way to do it [00:14:00] properly.
If you're doing it with your ankles or you're using your arms or any of that stuff, you're completely blowing it. It's a very core internal technique that not only moves the board but looks good, and so you wanna be bending with a straight back. You don't want to be hunching over and, and all of that traditional longboarding technique.
When you get on a, a short board and I ride boards that, that are all different sizes, including little boards that are basically like a standup bodyboard. And so when you're getting on these tiny little boards that just wanna squirrel around, but you have that core strength technique, all of a sudden you're like hugging the wave and carving these little [00:15:00] boards.
In a way that is really proper technique. And then when you get on your normal shortboard, you're able to really draw out your turns and hold your turns because it's, in my opinion, it's a method that you have to ride all different sizes of boards to, to come to. And I think there's a few surfers in the world, they just naturally kind of have that, that technique.
You know, like Bud Friis is one. He was born with an amazing style. Um, Joel Parkinson. You know, you've got these guys that no matter what they do on a surfboard, it looks amazing. But I think for a normal surfer to be able to cultivate that, that full rail core strength, um, never a double hitch in a bottom turn.
Never a flapping of the upper [00:16:00] body. Just everything you do is, is proper. That riding all boards is gonna enable you to do that on your shortboard.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah, no, I love that. They say the same thing is true in golf, right? You don't change your swing, you change your club. Same rule applies I reckon percent.
**Tony Roberts:** And when I learned golf, I got lessons from a PGA pro.
I was so, so focused on learning all the etiquette. 'cause golf is a gentleman's sport and you don't walk behind someone in their back swing or talk or step on someone's line. And the way that people approach surfing with so much disrespect and disregard for proper etiquette, which infuriates us lifelong surfers.
When I approached the sport of golf, I was very, [00:17:00] very adamant about learning it the proper way and not skipping clubs and not using woods until I could hit the irons and really approaching it in the most respectful way as possible, using the proper shoes, not going out there in a t-shirt and sandals, but really respecting the sanctity of this incredible sport.
**Michael Frampton:** , Yeah, I love that. And you're right, a lot nowadays, people certainly do not approach surfing anywhere near with that, , amount of thought. On that note, if there are any beginners listening at the moment, what advice would you have to them in that regards?
**Tony Roberts:** Yes. Well, I think that if you approach surfing with a lot of respect, then that would be.
Before even talking about the social [00:18:00] aspect is self-respect, and that is writing a beginner board in beginner waves until you have that board and those waves mastered. And do not try to graduate and skip steps on the ladder because that's not being respectful to yourself and to the expert surfers in the water.
They can see that a mile away that's not being respectful to them. So you have no reason using anything but a 10 foot soft top in one foot, slow rolling waves until you have that mastered. And then when you have that mastered, you go to the next step, then the next step, then the next step. And you shouldn't be riding a shortboard in advanced waves for years.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah, no, I agree. And that's a great way to think of it actually in terms of self-respect, because that is, that, uh, short process you just [00:19:00] described is the best way to learn surfing, because surfing is a long-term sport. It truly is. It's, there's no, there's no shortcuts in, in surfing. It's just one of those things.
It's so dynamic, so complex beyond your ability to realize when you're young and it's, every surf is like a compound. It's quite compound interest, isn't it? It just takes so long to gather up. It's not like tennis where you can go and smash a bunch of balls in the same place with the same ball machine or the same coach and get pretty good in six months.
That's not surfing. It's, that's great advice. Yeah. It is a certain level of self-respect because if you are going out there and you're getting frustrated 'cause people are dropping in on you or treating you like shit, well it's probably because you've skipped some of those steps and uh, they're just reflecting back to you your own attitude really.
**Tony Roberts:** 100%. [00:20:00] And furthermore, if you don't do that, you'll always surf like a kook. If you learn on a shortboard, you'll always surf like a kook. Every single person out there who just jumps on a, on a shortboard and didn't go through the learning process, they didn't learn how to turn the board with, with core strength, and they start turning it with their ankles and compensating with their upper body.
That's why a lot of in third world countries, nobody has a good style because nobody knows this and they all learn on short boards. So if you wanna have a good style, it helps. If you are doing this when you're a little kid and you're learning on a longer board, but if you're an adult and you're learning on a shortboard, you'll definitely be a kook your entire life.
**Michael Frampton:** Mm. Yeah. No, I, I love that. Makes me think of, , Julian Wilson, someone who has not only great style, but pitch a [00:21:00] perfect technique. He has a longboarding background. Yeah.
**Tony Roberts:** Perfect example.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah. I, I wanna go back to the, we segued a little bit, but I want to go back to the, the art versus sport subject. I.
I, I'm fascinated in your answer. I, I kind of expected you to say art because I, I, 'cause I would argue that even when you treat surfing like a sport, I-E-A-W-S-L competition, the surfers that win those competitions when they're actually surfing the wave, I feel like their surfing is very artistic. And there's the, the, of course you've got, uh, tactics and technique to get the right waves and all that sporting stuff, but once they're actually surfing the wave, it's, they're approaching it as an art form
**Tony Roberts:** perhaps. But in my opinion, I see art [00:22:00] in the aspect that you're talking about, in the way that an amazing NBA player dribbles up the court or in the way that a, a Street League skateboarder puts together their run. But. In my opinion is just artistic sport. The sport is the act of riding the wave. And if you are sitting out there and you're just enjoying nature and you're just having a, a spiritual moment, that's artistic.
But I don't look at surfing like that. , And it's because of my skateboarding background. I want the opportunity to try something. And in between sets, I might take in the view and acknowledge the fact that it's a magical moment in nature, but in reality, I'm saying [00:23:00] mantras to myself before the next wave comes, so that I will perform as, as well as I can in that short given.
Opportunity that I get that's between, you know, 20 and 90 seconds, depending on the spot you're surfing. And I also have somebody filming me. I want to get a good clip. And so some of my mantras, for example, are I'm sitting there between sets waiting for the wave to come and I'll say to myself, crisp takeoff.
Crisp takeoff. And I'll say it over and over to myself in my mind, just so that I don't get ahead of myself. I'm not thinking like, oh, I wanna do an air on this wave, or I wanna combo up. No, no, no. Because if I can get a crisp takeoff, which is hard enough, after 52 years of surfing, I still sometimes don't get a [00:24:00] crisp takeoff and I blow the entire wave.
But if I do get a crisp takeoff. Almost always magic unfolds down the wave because we have all the instinct, we have all the ability. It's, it's logged into our mind. We have all the practice, but we get in, we get in our own way with having too much crap in our mind when we're paddling into the wave. So if I can get a crisp takeoff, chances are I'm gonna do magic on the wave.
And another mantra that I use is simply, and this is usually after I'm, I kick out from a wave and I'm paddling back out and I'm, I'm playing back that wave in my mind, what I did good, what I did bad, and maybe I did something funky, like a spray check or something where if you do a spray check, your board stops because the nose of your, your board is gonna follow your head, right?
And if your head is looking where you want the board to go, and your head's following [00:25:00] through and holding the carve all the way to the bottom of the wave. You're gonna do this amazing carve, but sometimes we do this stupid little thing where we like look at our spray and the board just stops and you fucked up the whole wave.
And so paddling back out. Sometimes I'll acknowledge that I did that. And then my mantra, no matter what, between the next sets is going to be form. I'm just gonna say to myself over and over, form form. Sometimes I'll compound it with crisp takeoff form and that's all I'm thinking. And then I get into that wave and I'm thinking form, and I know that I'm gonna have my head going the right direction.
You know? I don't know if you saw that video that Ger did with AKI recently where Ger had all these backside snaps of aki, like ready to show him. And he said, AKI, he goes, you know why [00:26:00] your backside snap is the best of all time. Aki iss like, no man, I never really thought about it. And he said, it's where your eyes are.
He goes, look at this snap. And it's that classic Billabong Jbe ad where he is just like all rail and just perfect form. And he goes, look at your head. He goes, you're looking down the line where you want the board to go. So you're completing your snap, but you're already looking at the next section. So that's able, while you're able to hold the rail, come out into a full bottom turn, keep it on rail and into the next snap.
That whole process was on rail. There was no hitch, there was nothing because a's eyes are always on the prize, so I'll say mantras to myself between waves and that is really how I keep the, the performance at its peak. And so that's why on all [00:27:00] aspects, for me, it's always a sport. Never an art.
**Michael Frampton:** Okay. What about music? Do you see any, uh, similarities between surfing and music?
**Tony Roberts:** I see music almost like a tool for the sport, and I'm a musician and I love to play music and I'm always trying to get better at music. Also. I mean, I enjoy the artistic aspect, but it's a process, you know, I'm trying to improve.
And it is not a sport, obviously, it is an art music, however, it's a performance art. And I think that in sports, if it's a performance art, it's a sport.
Hmm.
**Tony Roberts:** A creative sport, an artistic sport, a [00:28:00] beautiful sport, but a sport nonetheless.
**Michael Frampton:** So dancing.
**Tony Roberts:** Dancing. And I also absolutely love to dance. I'm always trying to get better. I'm always trying to learn new dances. I want, like for example, I've lived in Latin America more than half of my life, and certain dances like cumbia and meringue, they're really easy. You can get really good if you have natural rhythm salsa's, incredibly technical.
It's incredibly difficult and I've got 30 plus years, 40 plus years learning to dance salsa and have taken lessons, and it is, salsa is borderline a sport. Hmm. And there's salsa dance competitions, and [00:29:00] I often use the comparison of surfing and dancing salsa because for example, right now the big controversy is should Kelly Slater get the wild card at Trestles?
And people are saying, oh, he is older and he doesn't have the, the board speed he used to have. And I have to remind people that surfing is a sport is a lot closer to a salsa dance contest than it is an MMA fight. So board speed and physical strength in an MMA fight is everything but in a salsa dance contest, experience and transitions.
Mm-hmm.
**Tony Roberts:** Are gonna win the contest. And it's very rare that some young couple is gonna be able to [00:30:00] step up and take out what is experience. So I feel like dancing is an art, but there are contests and it is judged and there are winners. But just like surfing, you're gonna have one judge who thinks couple B is better than couple A, and that has to do with their background and their biases and maybe even what country they're from.
So there's a lot of similarities in sense salsa dance contests and the WSL.
**Michael Frampton:** I think surfing almost bridges the gap between sport and art.
I think we're, I like to think of it as an art often because when I think of sport, I think of competitive [00:31:00] sports. But when I think of art, I think of music and being in rhythm and having good timing and technique. So for me personally, at this stage of my life, having good rhythm, timing and technique and just keeping things smooth and appropriate for the wave and the board, I give it more of an art label rather than in, in my twenties I was out there, I wanted to, you know, three to the beach, do the biggest turn.
I can sort of pretend I was being judged, I think. So that's where the definition, but I agree. I think they are surfing is both.
**Tony Roberts:** Yeah, absolutely. Like everything that you described that makes it a art for you. I want that in my. My ride and on that video clip and in my next video, it's not just to do it for the expression, the artistic expression.
No, it's uh, [00:32:00] it's a concrete thing that I'm trying to accomplish.
But surfing, as you said, bridges the gap because for it to look good, it has to look free flowing and not mechanical and artistic as it were.
**Michael Frampton:** . I think if I was as surfers, if we were to snap our fingers and all of a sudden we are standing on our surfboards feet in the right part of the board.
Surfboard in the right part of the wave. From that moment on, surfing's actually pretty simple and easy. And that the hardest part of surfing is what happens in between when the surfboard is under your arms and under your feet.
How, if
**Tony Roberts:** you have the ability Absolutely.
**Michael Frampton:** Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For experienced surfers or any, anyone really. I mean the, the surfer, the, the ratio is what? One minute of [00:33:00] surfing to every hour, if you're lucky in the water. Um, so what we do in between when the surfboard is under our arms and under our feet.
What advice would you have to people to manage that part of surfing?
**Tony Roberts:** Oh, man. That's everything because surfing are these fleeting moments and anything in the world. You do in an effort to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And that goes from
going to the gym, improving your diet, um, spiritual development, whatever religious faith you might [00:34:00] be., Anything that you do off of the board that is consciously to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And especially in training. And I've heard people say that the best training for surfing is surfing.
Bullshit. Surfing will destroy your shoulders. It will destroy your ears. It will destroy all these different parts of your body that the human body wasn't made for this out of balance activity that will destroy you. So yoga is the complete mind body strength, flexibility, discipline, workout that was invented thousands of years ago and perfected [00:35:00] thousands of years ago.
And if you adapt that to surfing, it's the best thing you can possibly do for your surfing tomorrow and for your surfing longevity. And that will compensate and balance out your entire body so that your shoulders and these other parts of your body that are getting this unbalanced workout. It puts it all back in balance.
**Michael Frampton:** . Those moments when you are standing on a surfboard and dancing with the ocean, do they inspire you and drive you to, to, to, to practice yoga and eat healthy and get to bed on time, et cetera?
**Tony Roberts:** 100%. Everything. It, it influences every single decision I make in my life and has, since I was a young child.
When I was a young [00:36:00] child, I said, how am I gonna be able to surf as good as I can my entire life? And that's been my lifelong mission. And I stopped eating animal products as a child, for example, and started studying Buddhism. Yoga as a child, and that has been a hundred percent for surfing and going through life and relationships.
If you're gonna be a good husband or boyfriend, you have to sacrifice surf time. And for me, I figured out pretty long ago that that doesn't work with my lifestyle and my goals. I'm not going to sacrifice and I'm not going to compromise my surfing for a [00:37:00] woman,
period. So that means that my relationships only go to a point to where it's not going to interfere with my surfing. And the same goes with my decisions with work, my decisions. With lifestyle, my decisions with diet, my decis decisions with exercise. And the reason why you don't see surfers, I don't see surfers my age doing themselves justice because they've compromised for work, for relationships, and that's fine.
That's their priority, but they're not at their full level because of it, none of them. And if you really want to be at your full level, then you need to be a hundred percent committed. There's no [00:38:00] half-assing it. And if you put 20% of that effort into your relationship or you're, you're still drinking and you're still eating hamburgers and smoking cigars and all that kind of stuff, you're not gonna be at your peak level.
Which is fine, that's your personal choice, but if you are gonna be at your peak level, it takes a hundred percent commitment.
**Michael Frampton:** . Yeah. And it is, I mentioned the word compound interest. It's interesting to see you improve as you age despite what society tells us should happen as we age. And that your consistency and dedication and commitment to surfing has just seen your relationship to surfing.
And with the ocean, just the depth of it increases. And, uh, [00:39:00] yeah, you're still obviously inspired by it greatly, and yeah, it's, is it, is it your most successful long-term relationship? Surfing
**Tony Roberts:** Without a doubt. Also with my daughter who's 19 years old, um, which hasn't been as long as my relationship with surfing, but is I feel like it's a hundred points also.
And I was very fortunate in that her mother broke up with me when she was pregnant and was a third world country girl in the middle of nowhere. And I said, well, if you're not gonna be with me, then I'm gonna take the kid, but you're still gonna be the mother. We're gonna drop in and visit you once in a while, but I'm taking the kid.
And she signed off on it. So I raised my daughter myself and my concept when she was [00:40:00] an infant was, okay, I'm gonna try to continue living my ideal lifestyle and raise her. And once it's not working out, then I'll compromise. For my daughter, but as it turned out, I never had to compromise and going on my vagabond, following swells, being in different countries at my favorite surf spots during the peak time of the year and focusing everything around that worked out amazing.
And my daughter had this incredible international universal education and now is an unbelievably, um, inspirational adult that is now teaching me.
So
**Tony Roberts:** [00:41:00] yes, I think that surfing has been my most, my longest relationship and it gets stronger and stronger with age because. I learn as the years go on, how to eliminate the other things in my life that interfere with it.
And you mentioned society like this does not work with society at all. And I listen to my friends and other people talk about their relationships and, and what they think is normal. And it does not, it's not conducive to a, a lifestyle where you're committed to surfing if you're in cold water or you're dealing with traffic or you're surfing waves that you don't wanna surf, that are crowded or not surfing because you're at work or any of those things.
At one, if, if surfing was your number one priority at one stage of the game, [00:42:00] you wouldn't have sacrificed and you would've made surfing work. And to do that to the fullest. You wanna be in the tropics, you wanna be at a good wave that, that you can continually progress. And if you sacrifice that for work, again, good on you, that's your prerogative.
You can live however you want, but you didn't do yourself justice in, in the surfing end of things. And that's what society dictates. And I really don't see any, I've never met anybody who, like myself, is going to go a hundred percent committed to surfing performance in your, in every aspect of your life, in all of your relationships.
And guess what? People are gonna respect you more women are gonna want you more when they can't get you. [00:43:00] And your child is gonna have a much more fulfilling education. When you are homeschooling her, you are teaching her on the road and linking her up with professional professors, getting her specialized education, and it goes so many miles beyond what society has dictated for us.
And as a surfer, if you're first prior priority is surfing and your own surfing performance, and that is your priority, that leads itself to the best diet, the best religion, the best ethics, the best morals, the best person that you can be contributing to this entire planet because that's what surfing dictates.
**Michael Frampton:** , I love that. I love that. I think it's also to add to that [00:44:00] your daughter's growing up with a parent. Who is modeling what can happen when you do narrow things down and don't try and do everything and focus on something, how good you can get and how you can develop a relationship with something like surfing over time.
And it's, I I think that's missing in a lot of, a lot of adults.
**Tony Roberts:** A hundred percent. And it goes back to the word you said, society, you know, and people that they, I can't believe it. I can't believe that they just fall for it. You know, all my friends, we were all the same when we were 13, 14, 15. We all wanted to be in the tropics.
Those things that we drew on our notepad, the perfect point break with the hammock, with the dark skinned girls and bikinis running around. I. The, [00:45:00] the cement ramp on the beach, like the doodles. That's life, man. That's freaking life.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah. There'll be people listening who are thinking, oh my God, how dare you not prioritize your daughter's education?
And yet their teenage child is in their bedroom on their smartphone while they're having a glass of wine and watching Netflix.
**Tony Roberts:** Yeah. And my daughter's education, she's 19 years old, and now she's already incredibly successful. Yeah. I mean, I wish I earned the money that she earns and, uh, it's, it's incredible.
Very cool. And as
**Tony Roberts:** you said, it was from, she saw an example of somebody who had a focused goal, but that focused goal. There's so many aspects that are integral to go into that diet, [00:46:00] nutrition, lack of stress, spiritual strength, mental and physical flexibility training regimen. That's all she's ever known.
And now she's taking it to the way next level.
**Michael Frampton:** Mm. Yeah. No, I like that. That's, I mean, 'cause we we're talking about things that we do anyway. Everyone eats, everyone goes to bed at a certain time. It's just, are you eating for mouth pleasure or are you eating to fuel a better surfing journey?
**Tony Roberts:** That's it, bro. You nailed it.
**Michael Frampton:** , I wanna go back to the time between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet when you're sitting out the back, paddling around waiting for waves. I. How do you manage your focus and everything above, you know, above eye level, your head? How do you manage that?[00:47:00]
**Tony Roberts:** Yeah, I try to stay away from people. I don't look at people rides unless it's somebody that is on a high level, because if I see somebody cook it, it can get into my subconscious because the flow I have in my mind is very, very
next level. It's built on mindfulness meditation practice. It's built on shalin, um, tai chi techniques. , So much has gone into that mindset between waves. I can't let any of this peripheral stuff interfere with that. And it's also very [00:48:00] important to be cordial and say hi to people. , But maintain focus, as you said, that's, that's the key word right there.
And how I do it is concentrating on my breath, returning to the present moment using mantras, and really visualizing
what I'm going to do on the wave in the aspect of keeping an open mind when I drop in. Reading the wave and giving the wave what the wave calls for, like getting in crisp takeoff and then looking down the line and not having anything in my [00:49:00] mind and reacting to those changes of the waves. I got to work a lot with Kelly Slater and filmed him all over the world, and he's the best I've ever seen at reading waves.
It's incredible how he can react to what the wave is going to do, and sometimes he'll be out there the whole session and doesn't do any errors and people are like, oh, look at him. He, he can't do errors anymore, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the best ramp of the day comes in and he does the craziest error that anyone's done in months, and it was the only one he, he tried because.
He's only gonna do an error if it's a perfect ramp. So he's a great example in having an open mind when you drop in. I don't think he ever thinks I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that when he is paddling into the [00:50:00] wave.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah. I mean, reading the wave is the hardest, the hardest part of surfing and, but all great surfers do it.
Well that's something that's, that no matter what style of surfing you want it or you do reading the wave is the foundation of it. Right. And that actually starts before you stand up too. Right. You've gotta choose the right wave. You've gotta sit in the right spot. You've gotta paddle in at the right angle.
You gotta time your takeoff. And when you say crisp takeoff, what? What do you mean by crisp?
**Tony Roberts:** A good popup. Good popup. You know, from the hands straight to the feet. In a millisecond crisp, you know, and sometimes that means doing a plank, you know, like hands on the rails, feet on the deck, and letting the wave build and [00:51:00] going down the first sixth of the wave in plank position, and then, then right at the right moment snapping to your feet.
It doesn't always mean like getting in early and getting up quick. No. Crisp means that popup, it's perfect. There's no like stumbling to the feet. There's no like need grazing the, the, the deck as as you're standing up. It's just that those hands to the feet in like a millisecond,
**Michael Frampton:** but Correct. But timing's everything,
**Tony Roberts:** the timing, as you said.
**Michael Frampton:** Yeah. 'cause there's, there's a difference between quick and fast.. Yeah. You wanna time it well. So would you say that as you're paddling into, and maybe you're in a plank and you're waiting for the right moment, that whole time you're already surfing the wave, like surfing starts before you stand up?[00:52:00]
**Tony Roberts:** Well, that depends on your definition of surfing
**Michael Frampton:** in terms of your, you're not trying to get the perfect popup in exactly the right spot per se, because maybe you misread the wave a little bit so you're remaining adaptable and just changing the timing of your popup. Maybe you hold back, you know, you're always sort of reading the wave one once it's sort of got you and you're almost in it, you're already kind of setting your line.
You're, you're surfing the wave, at least visually. Before you even pop up. So a popup is still a maneuver in surfing. So people often say the bottom turn is the first maneuver. My argument would be, it's actually the popups the first.
**Tony Roberts:** I agree with you.
**Michael Frampton:** So crisp, crisp takeoff. I like that.
Yeah. Hmm. [00:53:00] Tell us about your surf trips,
**Tony Roberts:** my personal surf trips or my business?
**Michael Frampton:** Your business. Yes.
**Tony Roberts:** Yes., I do a surf trip package where people can come surf and shoot with me. Um, usually they don't get to surf with me very much because I'm shooting the whole time and have a second photographer or filmer shooting as well. But I have a website, tr surf trips.com, where I offer trips to the best waves at the best time of the year that are my favorite spots in the region of Central America and the Caribbean.
After being down here for, [00:54:00] you know, 40 plus years, full-time, I've got completely dialed. Where's good when it's good. And I know all the locals everywhere, and I know the best places to stay. So depending on the size of the group, um, the surfers interest their level. I make these trips for them that include all transport, accommodation, and I film all of their waves.
We analyze their waves. If they want coaching, I give them coaching. And at the end of the trip I make a trip movie edit for them as a souvenir, which includes not only their waves, but scenics and on the road experiences. And this has been a way for me to use a [00:55:00] lifetime of filmmaking, professional photography as senior staff photographer for Surfing Magazine, official photographer of the Quicksilver Crossing.
I was on the Indie Trader for three years on the boat filming all the best surfers in the world. And that project was, they wanted the culture and the surfing, photography and cinematography, which was why I was the perfect fit for that project because I've been in these cultures immersed, bilingual for so many decades that I was able to capture all that for their project.
And so now I'm able to utilize all that experience and give that experience. To any surfer on any level and their friends or [00:56:00] family. And it's incredibly gratifying for me because if I get Kelly Slater's best video clip of the year, he doesn't really care. Quicksilver doesn't really care. They're like, oh, great.
Good job. You know, they expect it. But if I get the average surfer's best clip of his life, the look on his face, and it, it is just so gratifying for me. And it's the true essence of being able to give back after a lifetime of being blessed with this incredible lifestyle of traveling the entire planet at all the best waves in the world with all the best surfers and.
To now continue to utilize that skillset for everyday surfers is incredible. [00:57:00]
**Michael Frampton:** Oh, very cool. Very cool. And gosh, just the whole, just the experience of knowing when and where to surf from home, whatever home base you've chosen, that's worth, I mean, that's just invaluable for any, any surf trip I've ever been on.
The better, the better and more experienced. The, the guide, the surf guiding where, where we're going today, what time we're surfing due to the tides and the swell. I mean that makes or breaks a trip really. And then plus it's all on film and you can get coaching if you want. I mean, that sounds amazing. And where people that wanna find out more in book, where do they go?
**Tony Roberts:** TR surf trips.com. So it's my initials, Tony.
**Michael Frampton:** Okay, great. I'll make sure there's links to that in the show notes. And you also have a YouTube channel. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
**Tony Roberts:** Yes. I have two YouTube channels, real [00:58:00] surf stories and real skate stories. And these are a way to cement legacies of the greats of our sports surfing and skateboarding.
That
gives an opportunity to do a deep dive into their surfing life and what has made them great and using what they've accomplished to inspire us because each surfer has led these incredible lives that have inspired us in so many ways, and sometimes I. You'll hear the person's name, but you don't really know much about that person.
And so I'm always looking for those surfers and those stories that really give you a, a better [00:59:00] perspective of them. And also, as I said, to celebrate their legacy so they don't slide through the cracks. Like one example is I'd heard about this guy, Butch van Dale, and I even knew that he was known as Mr.
Pipeline, but I realized I didn't know much about this guy. So I started doing some research and holy crap, what an incredible person and story and character. And I mean for anyone who ever knew that guy, he was the most larger than life figure they'd ever met and ever knew. Yet here we are. Decades later and barely even know who the guy is.
So to be able to do a story on that guy and then having his family reach out to me [01:00:00] and so graciously say, wow, thank you so much. Like, this is so important to us that that people know Butch's story. And I just did one with a PT where I was able to sit down with him and wrap out for like three hours.
**Michael Frampton:** Oh wow.
**Tony Roberts:** And the amount of influence and impact that he's had in so many different aspects of surfing. People don't realize that they know PT for one thing or another, but if you put the entire package together, PTs, in my opinion, the most influential impact surfer in the history of our sport. Yeah, the Duke is more impactful in in getting it started.
Kelly Slater's more impactful in competition. You have these other people that are more impactful in certain categories, but the amount of categories [01:01:00] and the amount of impact that PT had in all those categories. So my YouTube channel celebrates all these incredible stories and again, gives me an opportunity to utilize a lifetime of filmmaking 'cause that has been my career my entire life.
I was director of video at O'Neill. I made the O'Neill Ozone in 1988. In my filmmaking career, I was the first person to use hip hop and rap music, and skate videos and surf videos. I invented the follow footage angle and street skateboarding. I invented the skate style water shot angle, and surfing. So my entire career has been, I.
Trying to do something that's never been done before doing it and moving on to the next thing. And now I'm able to utilize all that in my own channel, which is like me having my own movie theater, my own TV station. [01:02:00] I've been a musician my whole life, a dj. I make beats, I make music, I rap, I sing. Now it's like I have my own radio station.
I absolutely love the technology more than anything, you know, and it's, it's far reaching and, and every direction worldwide. So it's incredibly inspiring and gratifying.
**Michael Frampton:** Wow. Yeah. , Gosh. Okay, listener. Well, if you're inspired to. Go on a surf trip with Tony and, , have some of this rub off and surf some great waves.
Get some great footage. Then you can go to tr surf trips and there'll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you wanna learn and explore Tony's, , YouTube channels, there'll be links to those in the show notes as well. Those who wanna learn more about Tony's, , backstory in history, which he just touched on a few points there.
I will put a [01:03:00] link to the interview that David Lee Scales did with you, , back in 2014 in the show notes as well. , Tony Roberts, thank you so much for your time., You are an inspiration, especially to us, , older surfers and what's possible in surfing, longevity and performance. So thank you so much for your time.
I really appreciate it.
**Tony Roberts:** Thank you so much, Michael. Absolute pleasure.

120 Still Ripping at 60: Tony Roberts on Surfing Performance and Longevity
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

119: One Wave Is Enough Jun 03, 2025

Do you walk away from surf sessions frustrated—even when the waves were decent?

In this episode, we dive into a powerful mindset shift that helps surfers of all levels enjoy every session—no matter the conditions. Whether you're chasing the dream swell or just trying to improve, managing your expectations could be the key to unlocking more joy and better performance in the water.

Learn how unmet expectations quietly sabotage your surfing experience
Discover the surprising benefits of aiming for "just one wave"
Hear real-world examples of how this mindset frees surfers and boosts performance

Hit play now to learn how a small mindset shift can help you catch more waves, feel more stoke, and surf with more ease.

Key Points

Introduction of the podcast discussing the importance of managing expectations in surfing.
Discussion on the emotional impact of unmet expectations when surfing, emphasizing the role of expectations in creating disappointment or elation.
Suggestion to lower expectations, particularly around surf conditions, and adopt a mindset of aiming to catch just one wave as a strategy to enhance enjoyment and reduce frustration.
Personal anecdote illustrating the effectiveness of managing expectations by aiming to catch just one wave, even in challenging conditions.
Observation that setting low expectations, such as catching one wave, leads to greater enjoyment and improved performance in surfing.
Encouragement for listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave during their next surf session to experience the benefits of managing expectations.

Outline

Managing Expectations in Surfing

Michael Frampton, the host of the Surf Mastery Podcast, discusses the importance of managing expectations in surfing.
Michael shares personal experiences of arriving at the beach with high expectations based on forecasts, only to find the conditions different than expected.
The emotional swings experienced by surfers are often due to unmet expectations rather than the surf conditions themselves.
Michael suggests setting low expectations, such as aiming to catch just one wave, to enhance the surfing experience.
By lowering expectations, surfers can focus more on the enjoyment of being in the ocean rather than the number of waves caught.
Michael recounts a recent surf where, despite challenging conditions, catching just one wave made the experience rewarding.
Michael has shared this 'one wave' approach with clients, who have reported increased enjoyment and improved performance in the water.
The approach encourages surfers to appreciate the waves they catch more, regardless of the conditions.
Michael challenges listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave on their next surf.
For those interested in exploring this philosophy further, Michael recommends visiting surfmastery.com to download the e-book, The Philosophy of Surfing.

Transcription:

Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The show that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, building wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is all about managing expectations in surfing. Now, we've all had the experience of turning up to the beach and expecting it to be four foot and offshore because that's what the forecast promised. But then when we arrive, it's two foot and onshore. That familiar feeling of disappointment sets in. And of course, the opposite is true. The forecast says it's going to be two foot and onshore, but we decide to go for a surf anyway. And when we get there, it's four foot and clean, and suddenly... you are elated. Now, these emotional swings aren't actually caused by the surf itself. It's caused by your expectations.

So it actually makes sense to lower your expectations, especially around conditions. For example, if your expectation is that it's surfable, that's a pretty low bar. Combine that with the mindset of "I'm going to catch one wave," and you've set a low bar that's actually empowering and realistic. Most frustration, anger, and disappointment in the surf comes from these unmet expectations. If you expect to catch ten waves but only get three, you will likely walk away frustrated. Because what happens then is, instead of you focusing on the enjoyment of the experience of being in the ocean and riding three waves, you chose to focus on the seven waves that you didn't get.

And lately, I've been practicing this idea. And when I paddle out, my goal is to catch one wave, no matter what the surf is like. A couple of weeks ago, I drove out to the beach for a surf and the only expectation I had was that it was going to be surfable. Had boards in the car ready for any type of condition, as always. And then, when I turned up, it looked like it was pumping. It was well overhead. There were heaps of waves coming through. There were plenty of surfers out, but there were plenty of waves as well.

And I sort of felt like I should higher my expectations. But I managed them in the moment and I thought, no, I'm just going to suit up, paddle out, and catch one wave. Go from there. And then, as I was suiting up, I was watching the surf, and I sort of realized, man, people aren't really catching these waves. There's a lot of paddling for waves happening, but no one was really catching them. I wasn't quite sure why when I was suiting up. But when I got out, when I managed to paddle out the back, I realized, man, it's actually really hard to catch these waves. There was a lot of water moving. There was a lot of backwash and secondary swells.

So it was really tricky to get into these waves. And most of the surfers out there were pretty frustrated with it. Because I suspect they had seen the surf look like it was pumping, and they paddled out with all these expectations of catching some of these waves. And not many people were. And the ones that were catching were just really bumpy and there wasn't much good quality surfing going on. It took me forty minutes to catch one wave, but that one wave made my day. That's because I'd kept my expectations low.

I've been sharing these thoughts with clients recently as well. And a few clients have adopted this "just one wave" approach, and it's taken the pressure off their surfing. They're enjoying surfing more, feeling freer in the water. Ironically, they're actually surfing better as a result. It tends to be what happens. Because, when the example I gave—when the waves, they look good but they aren't, which happens a lot—and it takes you ages to even get one, where you've met your expectation, you actually appreciate that one wave a lot more. But if I had paddled out there and caught that one wave in the first five minutes, then I got another, another thirty-five minutes of time up my sleeve. And if you end up catching two, that's double your expectations. And of course, I've had surfs recently where I've paddled out expecting to catch one and caught twenty. Just makes you enjoy surfing so much more.

So, listener, here's the challenge. Next time you go surfing, set your expectation to just catching one wave. Try it. Feel it out. See what happens. If you enjoyed this philosophical approach to surfing and you want to go deeper, head over to surfmastery.com and grab a copy of the e-book The Philosophy of Surfing. It's available now for about the price of a cup of coffee. The link is in the show notes. And as always, thanks for listening. Keep surfing.

119 One Wave Is Enough: The Surfer’s Guide to Managing Expectations

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**118 Joel Timmons on Surfing, Songwriting, and Soulful Journeys** May 02, 2025

**Joel Timmons on Surfing, Songwriting, and Soulful Journeys**
If you’ve ever found yourself seeking balance between creativity and passion, or wondering how to turn life's challenges into powerful art, this episode is your invitation to explore that path. Joel Timmons, musician and lifelong surfer, shares how his emotional songwriting and connection to the ocean fuel each other—and how vulnerability, self-work, and rhythm tie it all together.
Discover the deeply personal story behind Joel’s standout track “Say It To My Face” and the emotional reconciliation that followed.
Learn how Joel’s journey from coastal South Carolina to Nashville—and back again—influenced the sound and soul of his new album.
Find out why both music and surfing are lifelong pursuits of flow, mastery, and humble progression—whether you're in the studio or in the lineup.
Tap play now to hear Joel’s heartfelt journey through music, surf, recovery, and rediscovery—and why he’d pick a surfboard over a guitar if he had to choose.
https://open.spotify.com/artist/40Gd49hHE75WtRiqYGGhGj?si=_WNyIrmQQLG7n77zxft70A
https://www.joeltimmons.com
https://www.instagram.com/joeltimmonsmusic/
Episode music: “Say it to my face” - Joel Timmons
**Key Points**
Surfing and songwriting, as activities that challenge individuals to be in the moment and focused on their immediate surroundings and tasks, are often pursued for personal joy and expression rather than financial gain.
Joel Timmons discusses how songwriting serves as a therapeutic tool for self-expression and personal growth, often stemming from a kernel of pain or question that needs articulation.
Joel Timmons started surfing at age 13 after moving back to Sullivan's Island, South Carolina, from Louisiana, where he began by riding boogie boards and small styrofoam surfboards.
Joel Timmons identifies as a musician who surfs, valuing both activities for their continuous learning and improvement aspects, and notes that both can be pursued regardless of professional success.
Joel Timmons emphasizes the importance of being fully invested and present during performances, noting that this genuine engagement tends to resonate more with audiences.
Joel Timmons reflects on his early musical influences, including his parents, Led Zeppelin, and the music education he received through choir and band programs, as well as informal jam sessions with friends.
Joel Timmons spent five years living in Nashville, which significantly influenced his musical development, particularly in songwriting and the incorporation of fiddle and pedal steel sounds into his music.
Joel Timmons' decision to pursue music professionally was solidified after a life-changing trip around the world, despite facing significant health challenges upon his return.
Joel Timmons discusses the impact of AI on the music industry, expressing both fascination and concern, and highlights the irreplaceable value of live, person-to-person musical experiences.
Joel Timmons admires Tom Petty's songwriting and artistry, recalling an early concert experience and the influence of Petty's work on his own musical journey.
**Outline**
**Joel Timmons' Background and Interests**
Joel Timmons is a surfer and songwriter from Sullivan's Island, South Carolina.
Joel grew up with a deep connection to both music and the ocean.
Joel considers themself a musician who surfs, rather than a surfer who plays music.
Joel owns upwards of 15-20 guitars and half a dozen surfboards.
Joel's favorite surfboard is a 9-3 single fin classic longboard.
**Joel's New Album and Songwriting Process**
Joel's new album is called Psychedelic Surf Country.
The song Say It To My Face is Joel's favorite from the album.
Joel finds songwriting to be a therapeutic and cathartic process.
Joel wrote Say It To My Face during a period of personal growth and reconciliation with a friend.
Joel did not release Say It To My Face as a single, which may explain why it is not as popular as other songs on the album.
**Surfing and Music as Lifelong Pursuits**
Both surfing and music are lifelong pursuits for Joel.
Joel sees synergies between surfing and music, such as the long arc of the journey and the joy of expression.
Joel believes that most people who surf or make music do it for the right reasons, not just for money.
Joel finds that performing from a place of authenticity and passion resonates most with audiences.
**Joel's Musical Influences and Development**
Joel's parents and early musical memories influenced their musical development.
Joel's biggest musical influence is Led Zeppelin.
Joel's first concert was seeing Aerosmith in seventh grade.
Joel's first song was a melodramatic piece about misery, inspired by bands like Blind Melon and Smashing Pumpkins.
Joel's songwriting was influenced by John Prine, whose plain spoken delivery and empathy resonated with Joel.
**Joel's Time in Nashville**
Joel lived in Nashville for about five years, which was important for their musical development.
In Nashville, Joel fell in love with fiddle and pedal steel sounds and became more serious about songwriting and storytelling.
Joel met many talented musicians in Nashville who inspired and influenced their own musical growth.
**Joel's Health Challenges and Recovery**
Joel experienced a near-death experience in India, where they contracted Guillain-Barre syndrome and became paralyzed.
Joel's recovery took a full year, during which they relearned how to walk and play music.
Nutrition and lifestyle played a crucial role in Joel's recovery, as did their passion for music and surfing.
**Joel's Future Plans and Projects**
Joel plans to perform and promote their new album, Psychedelic Surf Country.
Joel will attend a bluegrass guitar camp to improve their skills and potentially join their wife's band.
Joel will tour with an artist named Maya DeVitri and their own band, Soul Driven Train, throughout the summer.
**Joel's Views on AI and the Music Industry**
Joel is fascinated and terrified by the potential of AI in music, but believes it is still far from replicating the human element of live performances.
Joel uses AI tools like ChatGPT for tasks like writing emails and sequencing records, but resists using it for songwriting.
Joel believes that the unique vibe and human connection of live music cannot be replicated by AI.
**Transcription**
**Joel Timmons**
The vast majority of people that do it don’t ever make a dollar off it. It’s just something innate in people, and it’s something joyful and a sense of expression. Surfing and playing an instrument or singing a song challenges you to be in the moment and be focused on immediate surroundings and task at hand.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That is a couple of quotes from today’s guest, Joel Timmons. Joel is a surfer and a songwriter from Sullivan’s Island in South Carolina, who grew up with a deep connection to both music and the ocean. And that is a song called *Say It To My Face* off his new album, *Psychedelic Surf Country*, which will play out in its entirety at the end of this interview. It’s my favorite song off the album, so thank you for letting me use it in this podcast. I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Joel. I am a huge fan of listening and playing music. And this is a little bit of a different episode. Not a lot of surf content per se. It’s mostly about music. And let me know if you’re enjoying these different episodes. We did one a couple of weeks ago about parenting. This one’s about music. And let me know if you’re enjoying the eclecticness of these episodes. And without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Joel Timmons.
**Michael Frampton**
Thanks for joining.
**Joel Timmons**
Thank you.
**Michael Frampton**
I’ve been listening to the new album.
**Joel Timmons**
Sweet, how’s it translate down under?
**Michael Frampton**
Man. Yeah, I’m enjoying it. Pretty good, man.
**Joel Timmons**
You’re in New Zealand?
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, I am.
**Joel Timmons**
Cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Favourite song on that album is *Say It To My Face*.
**Joel Timmons**
Oh, cool, man. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s, for me at least, it’s the most... lyrically, it’s the most relatable song.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Very good. It’s pretty direct. Yeah, no, I like that. Yeah, this sounds like there’s a lot of self-work thing going on as well.
**Michael Frampton**
I guess so.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Yeah. I think songwriting is like a big tool for me with that, almost like journaling can be, and then sometimes those journals end up out in the world and that is quite therapeutic. Yeah. To have some secret little kernel of pain or question and then articulate it to yourself and make it feel nice to yourself and then get to share it with an audience.
**Michael Frampton**
Definitely transformative.
**Joel Timmons**
I guess songwriting is very cathartic in that way. Yeah, the good ones are. That particular song, I was just at home, just like crying my eyes out. The words were just pouring out of me like the tears. And since that moment, I had had the opportunity to get back together with that friend and have the conversation that we needed to have, even before I went into the studio to record it. So then being in the studio, it was really magical to be able to access the pain of when we were at odds, but then also with the knowledge of, okay, we did it. And that kind of jam out at the end of the song, that sort of resolves to a major key, and that musically was that reconciliation. So it was, yeah, it was really a beautiful journey.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It’s a beautiful song.
**Joel Timmons**
Sophie sent me an earlier version of it before it was released.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, cool.
**Joel Timmons**
Once it was released, I went on to—the album was released—I went on to Spotify, and I assumed that would be the most popular song. I was quite surprised to see that it wasn’t.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Yeah. And I didn’t release that one as a single. So some of those songs that have singles, were released as singles, have had a little more time out there. I just know of the few people that I’ve talked to into the empire, people like that song, which I didn’t... I love that song, but I didn’t know that it was gonna be special for some people. I’m glad to hear you say you like *Say It To My Face*.
**Michael Frampton**
We played that one Friday. I hit a release show here in town.
**Joel Timmons**
Oh yeah?
**Michael Frampton**
And we played the whole album top to bottom live, and that one...
**Joel Timmons**
Oh, rad.
**Michael Frampton**
That one felt really potent.
**Joel Timmons**
I’m really enjoying the *Trying* song as well. It’s really cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that one was also very fun live. That was like the last—we were at the finish line on the record and you could really cut loose. People were dancing and everything, so it was a good time.
**Michael Frampton**
So, let’s keep it surfing a little bit. When did you start surfing?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. So I grew up on a barrier island in South Carolina, Sullivan’s Island. So we were like riding boogie boards and little styrofoam surfboards when I was a toddler, four or five years old. My family, when we moved to Louisiana for three years, when I was entering fourth grade—fourth, fifth, and sixth grade—we were in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So there was no ocean there. My mom was a windsurfer, so we did a little windsurfing in Louisiana, brought that from South Carolina. And then when I moved back, all my little buddies that I grew up with were all surfing at that...At that point. I guess that was in seventh grade when I was like 13. So I started, yeah, I started surfing and studying and like reading the magazines and watching *Endless Summer* and that kind of thing. And then I guess like the surf season here is—we get hurricane swells in the late summer and early fall, and then really most of the waves come in the winter. But I wasn’t—when I first started—I wasn’t surfing in the wintertime. It was probably high school before I got a wetsuit and started surfing year-round. And the year I graduated high school, a couple of us took a surf trip to Costa Rica, which is a rite of passage for an East Coast surfer. Outer Banks in North Carolina, Florida, and then like the Caribbean or Central America.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
Puerto Rico as well. I’ve been to Puerto Rico a couple of times. I went there in college for the first time, so a couple of years later. Yeah, that’s a really close flight and man, an awesome surf destination. Yeah, I guess I’ve been there maybe four or five times now.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, to Puerto Rico?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been there once and the waves were huge. I was so surprised how much swell they get there. Yeah, I just got back from the Virgin Islands, which are just like the U.S. Virgin Islands, like the next islands over from Puerto Rico. And I’ve been going down there every winter for about 15 years and have scored some great swells down there. This year was a bit off. When I showed up, everybody was like, “It’s the best season we’ve ever seen.” The old guys were like, “The waves haven’t stopped since September.” And then there was one more swell when I got there, and then it stopped and it’s gone quiet. But I did get to catch one good swell down there this year.
**Michael Frampton**
Are you a surfer who plays music or a musician who surfs?
**Joel Timmons**
I’m a musician who surfs. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Nobody’s paying me to show up and surf. Yeah. And I do get gigs. I don’t know which one I would choose if I had to choose one or the other. Both have really guided me and helped me at different times.
**Michael Frampton**
If you were stuck on a desert island, would you choose a surfboard or a guitar?
**Joel Timmons**
Surfboard or a guitar? Golly, if there were waves, I’d probably have to choose a surfboard. I’m trying to think of some loophole where I can like get a guitar that’s shaped like a hand plane or something.
**Michael Frampton**
What’s harder—surfing or music—for you personally?
**Joel Timmons**
I think surfing’s harder. I don’t know. The Surf Mastery title of the podcast is scary for me ‘cause I definitely don’t feel like I’m a master of it, and I don’t feel like I’m a master of music either. That’s what the concept of mastery means. It’s not that you’ve mastered something, it’s that you have a drive to get better no matter what level you are.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, just want to improve.
**Joel Timmons**
Yep. And I do think there’s a parallel there in music for sure, as with surfing. It’s something—I’m 45 years old now—and I’m realizing now, oh gosh, I am one of those old guys now at this point. But there’s a generation or two ahead of me that I look up to and want to still be doing this in 20 or 30 years, both music and surfing. And it’s about learning and improving, even if my body presents limitations to me. If my fingers aren’t as fast or my pop-ups not as fast, to still be on a journey with it.
**Michael Frampton**
Definitely. Oh, for sure. And I see a lot of synergy with music and surfing. I think surfing is far more an art form than it is a sport. And you can pick your own journey. You could spend your entire lifetime only playing country music and never master it, and then decide to go into another genre and be like a beginner again. And the same with surfing. You change to a different type of board or a different type of wave that you want to surf and begin your journey all over again.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Music’s interesting too, because there’s probably amazing classically trained jazz musicians living in New York who barely earn any money. And then you’ve got people like—have you heard of The Chats?
**Michael Frampton**
The Chats?
**Joel Timmons**
No?
**Michael Frampton**
Uh-uh.
**Joel Timmons**
They’re an Australian band. Just grunge, punk rock, basic music. But their lyrics speak to the entire culture of Australia. So they’re cool. Sold-out shows. And they’re certainly by no means talented musicians—they’re not terrible—but music’s cool like that. You don’t have to be an exceptional, talented musician. You just have to play and speak from the heart and be good enough to perform to make it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
When Jack Johnson had his records that were really hitting, that was super inspiring for me. To be like, “This guy, okay, we know him from his surfing and his writing in the surf world, and his music is beautiful, but it’s not fancy. It’s very direct and plainspoken. It sounds like something you’d hear at a bonfire.” And when that was like, “Wow, this can really resonate with so many people,” that’s amazing. I found that encouraging as a young songwriter, trying to find my sound and my way.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
On that note, what advice would you have for, let’s say, someone who’s starting to play guitar later in life? Do you ever look back and go, “If I had to start all over again, I wouldn’t do this and this. Instead, I’d focus on that”?
**Michael Frampton**
That’s interesting.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. It’s such a different environment now, like with all the teaching tools on the internet. I have a few guitar students, mostly young kids, a couple that are teens and then some eight- and nine-year-old little dudes that are just exploring to find out what they’re into. And it’s easier for those kids, I think, than it is for an adult. I was probably 12 or 13 when I started picking up the guitar. And I was just, for some reason at that point, so driven to do it and had free time to dedicate hours at it. And today I don’t know that I would have the focus or the time to devote to a new thing like I had when I was that age.
Not to discourage any adult learners, but just—it’s going to be difficult. And there’s this painful part of getting the mechanics of your hand to just hold the press, press the strings down. That’s really defeating at first and it doesn’t sound good. Once you press through that and it becomes fun and rewarding because you’re making pleasant sounds—yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you play any other instruments?
**Joel Timmons**
I’m a percussionist. I play a lot of hand percussion, some drum set. My wife’s an upright bass player, so I’ve gotten better at the bass. I’m not really hireable yet because I physically can’t do it for a whole gig. Ten minutes and then this finger starts getting a blister and this hand starts cramping up. It’s a physical instrument. But yeah, I’d say percussion, guitar, vocals—my main expressions.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s interesting because you—considering you have a background in percussion and guitar, one would assume bass would be quite easy for you?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, the bass guitar I can play and feel comfortable with that, but the upright bass is just such a—oh yeah. There’s no frets there. Strings are really big around and you really have to, one, have good technique and also just have a certain amount of strength and callous to make the instrument speak. And my wife plays bluegrass music, so it’s just like boom on the bass, and like in the jam situation, you gotta just keep that going and it’s gotta be even, and it’s gotta be loud. And she could do it all night—relaxed, with good technique and beautiful tone. And I’m like, “Take the bass!” And I’m sweating and inefficient with my movements and it doesn’t sound as good. It’s not as in tune. And then I’m like, “Okay, sub, please.” So I just haven’t devoted the hours and hours it takes to just get that basic good technique down, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, with that instrument.
**Joel Timmons**
But I’m—there’s one right over there. I could work on it here after this. That’s a rewarding instrument for me.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, the fretless bass—it feels really good to play it. When you play live with your band, do you have a double bass player?
**Joel Timmons**
Certain groups I do. The band that I played with on this album—Ethan J—he’s the bass player. And he played both double bass on some tracks and then bass guitar and some five-string bass guitar, some four-string bass guitar. We recorded it at this guy Mike Elizondo’s ISS recording studio. And Mike’s a brilliant bass player and producer, and Ethan was a kid in a candy store. “I’m going to use a different one on every—every—” This particular nuance of this song requires this particular electric bass from this era. And Mike had them. Had all of them there.
**Michael Frampton**
So cool.
**Joel Timmons**
But yes—sometimes it’s bass guitar, sometimes it’s upright, sometimes it’s both.
**Michael Frampton**
How many guitars do you own?
**Joel Timmons**
Fifteen. Upwards of 15 or 20, maybe.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. How many surfboards?
**Joel Timmons**
Half a dozen. Not too many.
**Michael Frampton**
And if you had to choose one surfboard, which one would it be?
**Joel Timmons**
I think I have a 9’3” Bing—like a single fin classic longboard. I guess it would probably depend where I’m going to be. But I guess if it’s just the board firm, I can still go anywhere I want. Of the boards I have now, I’d probably stick with the 9’3” because I get more days here on that board than anything. Though I’d get myself in trouble if I was in real heavy surf with that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
Break it in half, and then I’d have two shorties.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you see many synergies between surfing and music?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were talking about just the long arc of the journey. It’s something I’ve been doing since I was a kid and I’m still really excited about it and still improving in some ways. And the vast majority of people that do it don’t ever make a dollar off it. It’s just something innate in people and it’s something joyful and a sense of expression. And then there’s this little industry that makes money on it. Some people are professionals at it, but that’s just a small part of the experience of music or surfing. And yeah, I’m lucky. I’m lucky to get to be making money doing music and traveling. But I think I would still be doing it whether or not it was my job. It would still be a part of me.
**Michael Frampton**
So you’re doing it for the right reasons, let’s say. And when you’re performing from that place, is that the performance in the song that tends to resonate most with the audience?
**Joel Timmons**
I certainly—when I go to a show, it’s generally pretty obvious energetically if the performer is fully invested in the moment or disappointed or thinking about whatever. It’s a really challenging life to be away from home and putting your best self out there every night. Usually I can find that joy and the excitement of the moment. That both—surfing and playing an instrument or singing a song—challenges you to be in the moment and be focused on immediate surroundings and the task at hand.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Do you ever find yourself struggling to get into that flow state as a performer?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, sometimes. If the audio is challenging, if I can’t hear the guitar or my voice in the way that I’m used to, or if the instrument won’t stay in tune—sometimes I’m like fighting the mechanics of it. Or if I’ve had too many gigs and my voice is worn out, if I’m thinking about just the physicality of it—that can be a challenge. But then, I don’t know, sometimes you can press through. And yeah, it’s not something that I’m thinking about usually on stage. But I think that’s probably an indication that I’m there—whether or not I’m enjoying it—I’m just really focused and primed up into the moment.
**Michael Frampton**
Are you able to—same thing in surfing would be the next question.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Except when it’s real crowded.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. I really struggle with that. To not have my mind taken by the social or the dynamic when it’s a lot of folks out there. Or get frustrated on the wave count or whatever. Where I live here, my local is just a big sandbar so you can spread out. There are certain days where it’s crowded everywhere, but that’s just a handful of days a year. So usually I can just spread out. Surf traveling—sometimes it’s not like that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, performing as a musician is unique like that. Once you’ve got the stage, you’ve got the stage.
**Joel Timmons**
It’s true.
**Michael Frampton**
Or do you sometimes have exceptions to that?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What would be an exception?
**Joel Timmons**
You have a sit-in musician who wants to steal the limelight or something.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, the sit-in harmonica player that won’t take a hint.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. When I was on this recent tour in the Virgin Islands, we actually had a really beautiful gig that sort of morphed into this showcase of all these local musicians who had shown up. We’d been down there for a week and it was our second to last show, and we had a steel drum player that came in for a while, and a saxophone player, a harmonica player—all these guys. At the end of the show, we were like, “Wow, that could have just gone so sideways,” and it was just wonderful. Everybody read the room, played appropriately, didn’t overstay their welcome, and it just flowed.
**Joel Timmons**
But that—when sometimes when you're mixing too many ingredients in or just have... audio—if we're playing bars where there's not really a stage, it's just a sand dance floor and a sand stage, and then you have people that invite themselves on, think they can play the tambourine...
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. It sounds like a crowded lineup.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Totally.
**Michael Frampton**
And then when it's you and your buddies on stage, that's like surfing with you and your best mates.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. That's the best, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And then of course you've got your solo sessions, which are extra special. What would the equivalent of the solo session be? Like you're just in the bar, you and the bartender, you're like, “Man, this sounds so good right now.”
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, or just you in the bedroom with an acoustic.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, that’s true. That’s where a lot of it starts.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
How many hours a day, when you were first really inspired and coming up and learning, would you spend on the instrument?
**Joel Timmons**
I think I spent like upwards of three or more hours a day when I was first really tackling it. And then maybe backed off that at some point. And then back to that point again at different periods. I’m actually signed up to go to a bluegrass guitar camp this May. It’s like—there’s a big tradition of fiddle, banjo, bluegrass camps in the Appalachians and out West, all over the U.S. I’m adjacent to that scene. I’ve grown up hearing bluegrass music, but not playing it and going to those camps, whereas my wife is just deeply bluegrass from before she was born. Part of it is wanting to be able to keep up with her and her friends, but also I’m genuinely interested in getting better at this kind of music. It’s going to be fun to go and, like you’re saying, be a beginner again in this particular genre. I’m like, “Yeah, okay, I get paid to play the guitar—but not this type.”
**Michael Frampton**
You’re going there as a student?
**Joel Timmons**
As a student. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh wow.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. I sent my application, my video in, and sent my money in. It'll be three or four days. I’ll have to leave for one of the days to go play a gig and then come back—miss one of the days. But I’m excited about that. I haven’t ever done a surf camp or anything like that. The first time I went to Costa Rica, I guess because I was a minor, we went to a camp that took us around to the beach. So I guess I did do that when I was a kid.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Those types of camps are becoming more and more popular in surfing—where you go on a surf trip for a week or so, and the objective is to actually learn and to get better at surfing and/or learn a new style of surfing. Those are becoming more and more popular.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Totally. In music, there seems to be less arrogance around that. Even though you love to play and perform and write from the heart, you’re still very aware of, “Hey, you know what? I could do with some theory and learning some different styles.” And there’s a humbleness within the music industry that hasn’t really infiltrated surfing culture as much yet.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and I was just thinking—it’s there. There are videos and people breaking down surf lessons, but it seems like a much more difficult thing. Like, I can sit here with my guitar, stop the video, play it in slow motion, and really integrate a lot of stuff with a YouTube instructor. But watching a video and then going out and paddling around and trying to integrate all that is a much slower, more difficult loop to get your reps in.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. I guess surfing with that analogy would be more similar to singing. When you are singing, and then you hear yourself back on a recording, you're like, “Oh, that’s not how I thought it sounded.”
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
Because when you watch yourself back on footage of surfing, you’re like, “Oh.” But I think in the same way as singing, the more you record and listen to yourself, the closer those two things become—the way it sounds when you're doing it and the way it sounds on the recording.
**Michael Frampton**
Has that been your experience?
**Joel Timmons**
I think so, yeah. And maybe you just get more used to the sound of your amplified voice and it not coming through your head. I’ve gotten more comfortable with that and knowing how much of that I want in the stage monitors. If it’s too muddy or too bright, I now know how to get it to where it feels comfortable and doesn’t feedback. I can sing quiet and hear myself, or I can sing loud and not blow my head off. I think that’s come with experience.
**Michael Frampton**
Mic technique.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Same with surfing. When you watch yourself on video, and then go back and practice, those two things—the way surfing feels and the way it looks—start to line up.
**Michael Frampton**
Did you have lessons growing up—music lessons?
**Joel Timmons**
A little bit. It was more just like playing music with groups of people. There were other kids getting instruments at the same time I was. And there was this art school that one of the kids I grew up with—his mom started it when we were really little—and it grew into a program. There was an early American folk ensemble that this lady, Hazel Ketchum, taught. We were probably in seventh, eighth, ninth grade, and we were playing guitars. She was teaching us everything from Grateful Dead songs to old English ballads. It was acoustic music, and she was teaching us how to be in an ensemble. We did read music a little bit, but it was a lot of learning by ear and harmony singing by ear.
**Joel Timmons**
In school, I was in the choir and in the band program, so I was getting a little more structured musical education there. And then in our afternoons, my friends and I were making up songs and jamming in the garage on electric guitars and drum sets, so I was getting it from all sides.
**Michael Frampton**
Not too many private lessons?
**Joel Timmons**
Not really. A handful at the very beginning on guitar.
**Michael Frampton**
Were your parents musical?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, my mom. She had a guitar at the house. She played guitar. And at church, we would all sing in the choir. She would—before church—there would be a more informal kind of song circle, and that’s the first place I saw people playing guitar and singing. I was just amazed at how fast they could move from one chord to the next—right in time with the song, not even breaking stride. I remember placing my fingers individually, slowly, stretching them to get that chord, and I was amazed that people could just fluidly move between them.
**Michael Frampton**
But they weren’t professional?
**Joel Timmons**
No, not professional—but in a reverent way, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Who’s your biggest influence musically?
**Joel Timmons**
Some of those earliest memories would make it tough to not say my parents, especially because they were the ones taking me to concerts and encouraging me to be in the choir. Also, I had a really great choir instructor in high school—Ms. Austin—who also sponsored the guitar club at our school, which was like the “boys with guitar toys” jam space during homeroom. Ms. Austin helped me a lot. And then, Led Zeppelin is still maybe my favorite band of all time. They were long since passed when I discovered them through cassette tapes, but it still felt as vibrant as ever.
**Michael Frampton**
You mentioned concerts. What was the first concert that made a big impression on you?
**Joel Timmons**
I have a really early memory—there’s something in Charleston, South Carolina, called the Spoleto Festival, and it’s like an arts-from-around-the-world kind of thing. It’s still going on. Some of it’s highbrow opera and chamber music. And then the city does its own sort of sister festival at the same time. I remember seeing these guys playing Andean panpipes. It was a whole ensemble of dudes playing in concert together, and I just remember it totally blowing my little mind.
**Joel Timmons**
I also have memories of the choir at church. And then the first real rock-and-roll concert I went to was in seventh grade—Aerosmith. A friend of ours—the cool mom—loaded a bunch of us into the car and drove us two hours up the road to Columbia, to the Coliseum, to see Aerosmith.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. That was awesome.
**Michael Frampton**
What year was that?
**Joel Timmons**
I’m thinking it was like ’92.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow, so they were already old rockers by then.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, I don’t know if it was the “Get a Grip” tour or when they had all the cow graphics—it might’ve been that era.
**Michael Frampton**
They still played “Sweet Emotion” and stuff?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
That would’ve been amazing.
**Joel Timmons**
“Janie’s Got a Gun,” yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What’s the first song you wrote—or at least, the one that comes to mind when I say that?
**Joel Timmons**
There were two songs, probably in seventh grade or something. There was one I wrote by myself that was super melodramatic: “My life is full of misery, you love everybody but you just can’t stand me.” Real sorry-for-myself 12-year-old emo stuff.
**Joel Timmons**
And then me and my friend, Natonya, co-wrote a song about a stick. It was like a story about an inanimate object—a little bit buried Tom Robbins—which I didn’t really realize at the time. It was the whole life story of this stick. Neither one of those songs ever got recorded.
**Michael Frampton**
Maybe they should be.
**Joel Timmons**
Dig back, yeah—why not? You never know. There’s a lot of wisdom in the childlike perspective.
**Michael Frampton**
It makes me think of “Hazard” by Richard Marx. That was a songwriting project given to him by a teacher. He wrote it for no reason apart from that, and it became one of his most famous songs.
**Joel Timmons**
That’s cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I definitely—there was one song, I can’t remember the title—but I heard a lot of John Prine influence in one of your songs.
**Joel Timmons**
Cool. Yeah, he was a huge influence for me, for sure. I do remember hearing John Prine for the first time—not live—but my friend Joey, his dad lived up in the country in McClellanville, South Carolina, and we would go up there sometimes on the weekends, probably around that same seventh, eighth, ninth grade. We stayed at his dad’s—Dirty Dan’s—house, and Dirty Dan was like, “You guys need to listen to this.” And he played us “Sam Stone” and “Paradise” and “Angel from Montgomery.” Since then, John has been a total songwriting light for me. His plainspoken delivery, but with layers and layers of empathy and humanity.
**Joel Timmons**
I got to see him live a couple of times in Nashville. He lived in Nashville when I was living there. One time we went to Arnold’s—it’s like this meat-and-three restaurant. My mom was in town, my wife, probably both my parents and my wife and I, all went for lunch. And then here comes John—this was one of his regular spots. He goes to the buffet, and I’m kind of stunned. He walks past the table, and my mom—she can’t keep it cool—she says, “I love you, John. We love you, John. Thank you.” And he was like, “Okay.” I was so embarrassed at the time. And then a few years later, COVID happened and we lost him in the early days of COVID. I was really grieving that a lot during a crazy time, and I was so glad that my mom told him that she loved him when she had the chance. Even though it was a little inappropriate, hey—that was her chance. She took it.
**Michael Frampton**
And he knew it.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. I’m sure he appreciated it on some level. She didn’t grab him or jump up and try to take a picture or anything. I was probably the one taking a picture over my shoulder at him.
**Michael Frampton**
How long did you spend living in Nashville?
**Joel Timmons**
I lived there for about five years. I was visiting Shelby, my wife, for about a year before I moved there. So I think I moved there in 2015, and then in 2020 we moved out. But I’m heading back there next week. I love it—it’s an awesome place.
**Michael Frampton**
No surfing though?
**Joel Timmons**
No. It’s a long way from the beach.
**Michael Frampton**
How important was that Nashville time to your musical development?
**Joel Timmons**
I think this new record definitely wouldn’t have happened without Nashville. It’s me trying to document and take a Polaroid of that time and the people I met there. There are lots of songs about South Carolina, the Lowcountry, my youth on the coast—but all the sounds, the fiddle, the pedal steel—I fell in love with that in Nashville. I got more serious about songwriting and storytelling. The musicians I got to meet there—you just get better by hearing those people play regularly and watching their approach up close. You’re just surrounded by it. It’s like going to the North Shore as a surfer.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You better learn to duck-dive or go back to Alabama.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
*Psychedelic Surf Country*—what inspired that title?
**Joel Timmons**
It was after we’d made the record, and it was like, “Oh God, here comes another one of these decisions—what are we going to call it?” I was just describing the sound to somebody and I said, “I don’t know—it’s like psychedelic surf country.” And then I thought, “That kind of sounds cool.” The first way I was using it was to describe it as a genre or an amalgam of sounds. But I also like thinking about it as a place. A friend of mine the other night said, “Oh, I thought it was a place—where you’re from.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, sure—that too.” It just came out of my mouth, and I thought, “I think I like that. I think it sums it up pretty well.” I did a quick Google search and it wasn’t already a band or anything. Lots of psychedelic surf rock, lots of surf-country, even psychedelic-country, but I couldn’t find all three together.
**Michael Frampton**
Does it describe your three favorite things?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Pretty well. Three interests for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
The psychedelia is when the walls start getting fuzzy and the boundaries between things get blurry and you realize there’s a great unity behind everything. And that’s like music—a genre-less place.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
That gave me the image of—what’s that cartoon? With the Black musician who has an out-of-body experience. Have you seen that?
**Joel Timmons**
I don’t know if I have. Was it one of those documentaries with cartoon reenactments?
**Michael Frampton**
No. It’s a really good movie. It’s about a Black music teacher who finally gets offered a gig with a famous jazz musician. But then he dies and has an out-of-body experience and comes back.
**Joel Timmons**
Oh, I have to check that out.
**Michael Frampton**
I’ll put the title of that movie in the show notes if I don’t remember it before the end of this. Really cool movie. All talking about the soul of music. He very much loses himself in the music and has a psychedelic experience while jamming.
**Joel Timmons**
Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
I’m very much an amateur musician, but I’ve certainly had jam sessions where you’re just playing a song and the song takes over and you’re almost witnessing yourself. And I think those are the best surfing sessions too—when you become one with the rhythm of the ocean. You’re not really thinking, you’re just moving in time with the waves.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. That’s a noble pursuit.
**Michael Frampton**
I think so. And I think for getting better at surfing, I always say to people—if you want to become a good musician and you’re not naturally gifted or you don’t play by ear or anything, then there’s no way around it. You have to spend time learning your chords and your scales and your modes. And then when you jam, if those things are in your muscle memory, you don’t have to think about them. That’s when you can slot in and have that creative expression.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And I think surfing is the same thing. It’s more athletic—it’s full-body movements, not just fingers. But if people want to become better at surfing, they really do have to practice those movements over and over again. Just install a slow-motion popup and a tube stance into your nervous system—just like a music scale or a chord shape.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you have people doing those motions on land? Like surf-specific exercises?
**Joel Timmons**
Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s the thing—if you didn’t grow up surfing as a kid for eight hours a day, and you come to surfing later in life or you reach a stage where you want to really improve, there’s no way around it. Because even if you go surfing for three hours, maybe three minutes of that is actually spent standing on a wave. The rest is just paddling or waiting.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So there’s no getting around those surfing exercises.
**Joel Timmons**
The rest is just paddling in circles, trying not to drown—is what I tell people basically.
**Michael Frampton**
So I always use the analogy of music. Musicians humble themselves. They do the scales, they learn the chords, the theory—and that’s what gives way to jam sessions, songwriting, and creative flow.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Totally.
**Michael Frampton**
Where in New Zealand are you?
**Joel Timmons**
I’m in a place called Hawke’s Bay, which is on the east coast of the North Island.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool.
**Joel Timmons**
Long way away. I got to visit New Zealand just once, in 2003. I was doing an around-the-world itinerary. I had finished college, worked for a year, saved up some money. We flew to Tonga, then crewed a sailboat from Tonga and came in through the Bay of Islands. Then caravaned around New Zealand for six weeks. It was awesome. I can’t believe I haven’t been back. It was life-changing. I’ve been back to Australia a few more times since then.
**Michael Frampton**
Were you here in New Zealand playing music?
**Joel Timmons**
I had a little backpacker guitar with me, and we were just cruising around. Met some house truckers, did some car park jamming. But no gigs or anything. I wasn’t at that level yet. That was the trip where I decided, “Yeah, okay—I want to do music for real.” When I came back to the States, I started. I already had a band and had been playing gigs, but I was like, “No. I’m not going to grad school. This is what I want to do.”
**Michael Frampton**
How old were you then?
**Joel Timmons**
Twenty-three or twenty-four.
**Michael Frampton**
Was that a scary decision?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, I guess so. Maybe not at the time. When you’re 23, you feel like you can do anything. There have been scary parts along the way—moments of reevaluation, reinvestment, digging back in. But on that same trip, we went to Tonga, New Zealand, Australia, then Indonesia, Southeast Asia, Nepal, and India. The plan was to go to Europe, but in India I got super sick and ended up in New Delhi with Guillain-Barré Syndrome. I was basically fully paralyzed.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow.
**Joel Timmons**
It was a real near-death experience. When I came back to the States, I was in a wheelchair, couldn’t sing, couldn’t play guitar. But I knew that’s what I wanted to do. Focusing in on music—and my old bandmates, who would accommodate me, let me play just a little bit, and encouraged me—was a huge part of my recovery.
**Michael Frampton**
How long was recovery?
**Joel Timmons**
Like a full year. I was in the hospital for six weeks. When I came out, I was super emaciated. Then it was just physical therapy for the better part of a year. Retraining everything—learning how to walk again, everything.
**Michael Frampton**
How important was nutrition and lifestyle on that journey?
**Joel Timmons**
Extremely. And surfing, too. Initially I was body surfing and bodyboarding, then longboarding and stand-up paddleboarding. Through my different physical restraints, it opened my eyes to all these different ways of getting out there and riding waves and getting the benefits. Nutrition was more about just eating anything and everything because I was down to a skeleton. I’ve always been thin, so I just try to eat a lot—but make sure I eat a lot of vegetables too.
**Michael Frampton**
Lifestyle must be a challenge being a musician?
**Joel Timmons**
For sure. Having a regular time to go to bed, a regular time to wake up, and three square meals—it’s tough. Sometimes I’m in a different bed in a different town every night. And there’s always alcohol and every other thing around. But I’ve managed to not go to jail or die. I’ve seen plenty of people who have, and the wreckage along the way—it can go either way.
**Michael Frampton**
So when you finally made that commitment—“I’m going to put everything into music”—was it a relief in some ways?
**Joel Timmons**
Maybe, yeah. It definitely allowed me to let go of some of those other voices. I studied geology in undergrad, studied science. That’s a field with a lot more opportunity if you go to graduate school or get a PhD. I also wondered about being a wilderness instructor or a few other things. But I dove into the band, treated it like a business. Moved into a house with my buddies—my best friends—and everybody had their role. It was super DIY. Not necessarily punk rock, but very communal. We shared groceries, piled into the van, drove across the country, played shows, made what we could out of it. It was pretty dang fun—but also very scary. You’re watching your friends take exits off this lifestyle—getting married, having kids, settling down—and I’ve seen folks take the off-ramp. But for whatever reason, I’ve stayed the course.
**Michael Frampton**
You mentioned a scientific side. Did that show up in your songwriting? Any songs based on science or theory?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah, I wrote a song that started off as a kid’s song. I was working at a camp in North Carolina—right around the time the band was getting serious. It was for the summer solstice. I wrote a song explaining the position of the planets, what the solstice is, why we have seasons. It turned into a jam that my band Sol Driven Train has played for years. But it started off as a nursery rhyme science lesson. I’ve also written some book report songs about local history and stuff like that.
**Michael Frampton**
So what’s the future hold for your music? Do you have another album concept or are you focused on this one for now?
**Joel Timmons**
It’s going to be performing and doing press stuff for this record. I’m heading to Nashville the day after tomorrow to play a show. My wife—she’s also a musician—has a listening party for her new record. So it’s coming right in the tail of mine. Part of my going to bluegrass camp is to get good enough that maybe she’ll hire me in her band when her record comes out. I’m also touring with an artist named Maya de Vitry. She’s a Nashville songwriter I met when I was living there. We’ve got a bunch of West Coast tour dates and more throughout the summer. My band, Sol Driven Train, is guys I’ve known since childhood here in Charleston. We have a scattering of shows—next ones are in Key West, Florida.
**Michael Frampton**
I’d love to get your opinion on the music scene in general. There’s a lot of talk about AI and AI-written music. Are you experiencing any of that or is it all hearsay?
**Joel Timmons**
I’ve heard some pretty funny AI songs. It’s getting pretty good. I’m simultaneously terrified and fascinated with AI. I use ChatGPT. I’ve resisted using it for songwriting, though I think it would be a brilliant songwriting partner. But I’ve used it to write difficult emails, or the other day I was doing a TV thing, and it helped me sequence my record. I asked it, “Here are the songs, and a little note about each—give me five different sequencing possibilities.” I didn’t use any of them, but it suggested putting one song first that I never would’ve thought of, and I thought, “What does that mean?” It just generates ideas I wouldn’t think of—really rapidly.
**Joel Timmons**
As far as generative songs and recordings—I’m sure it’s going to get perceptively good at some point. It’s not quite there yet, but it’s pretty funny. My wife played me this AI bluegrass song the other day—something about Ricky Skaggs in outer space. Very strange, but it had a banjo roll in there and hit the elements. Every field is going to be affected.
**Michael Frampton**
The music industry’s been through a lot. When you were getting into music, a lot of musicians were making money off CDs. Now those musicians spent all that money, and they’ve got to go back on tour.
**Joel Timmons**
Totally. Hootie and the Blowfish are a Charleston band that were absolutely blowing up in the early ’90s—when CDs were at their peak. Multi-platinum *Cracked Rear View*. Darius is still out there. I don’t think he spent all his money, but he’s still touring, doing country. Mark Bryan’s still super active in the Charleston scene. But yeah, I definitely missed that boat. I’ve been a live performer my whole career. That’s how I’ve managed to make it work. The recordings support that and help capture the songs, but most of the revenue has come from face-to-face, old school.
**Michael Frampton**
Which I don’t think AI will be able to replicate.
**Joel Timmons**
Unless you’re thinking Westworld.
**Michael Frampton**
No, I think that’s a long way off—robots as jukeboxes in bars that can play any song. But not just a jukebox—a mechanical robot that physically plays drums, guitar, etc.
**Joel Timmons**
Chuck E. Cheese used to do that, but they just played recordings. Still, I think you want to see a real person.
**Michael Frampton**
I think so. That’s a life transmission of heart and soul.
**Joel Timmons**
Like Rick Beato tried to quantize a John Bonham beat—it sounded terrible.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Joel Timmons**
There are drummers whose feel and groove you just can’t replicate.
**Michael Frampton**
That vibe of a band like Led Zeppelin can’t be recreated.
**Joel Timmons**
You could program it—dump all Bonham’s tracks into an AI, and it would get the tone and feel. But it wouldn’t be new. And it wouldn’t drink all the beer.
**Michael Frampton**
Are you a fan of Crowded House?
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah. Absolutely.
**Michael Frampton**
What did Tom Petty mean to you?
**Joel Timmons**
Man, I love Tom Petty. I saw him in high school at the Coliseum in Charleston. What a songwriter. The sound was bad that night, and the performance seemed a little lackluster, so I didn’t have a great impression of the live show. I’ve seen videos since and I know he was a fantastic live performer, and his band—one of the best ever. But as a 16-year-old, I was a little unimpressed. Still—I love Tom Petty. That *Wildflowers* album—maybe my favorite.
**Michael Frampton**
It’s special.
**Joel Timmons**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Where can people go to find out more about you and listen to your music?
**Joel Timmons**
I’m on all the streaming services. My name’s Joel Timmons. joeltimmons.com is my website—that’s the main portal. I’m a reluctant user of Instagram—that’s about my only social media—but I’m on there pretty regularly.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. I’ll put links to everything—your website, your Spotify profile, etc.—in the show notes. Joel, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it, man.
**Joel Timmons**
Michael, thanks a lot. I appreciate you having me on.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Alright.

118 Joel Timmons on Surfing, Songwriting, and Soulful Journeys
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**117 Surf Every Day: How DJ Morris Found Flow in Winter Waves** Apr 18, 2025

What happens when a lifelong connection to the ocean turns into a mission to surf every single day through winter?
Whether you're a surfer, an ocean lover, or someone chasing consistency in your passions, this episode dives deep into the transformative power of daily dedication and the personal growth that comes from truly connecting with the ocean. If you've ever wondered how doing something every day could reshape your mindset, this is for you.
Hear how DJ Morris turned his childhood love of the ocean into a thriving surf school and daily surfing ritual.
Discover the surprising challenges and benefits of surfing every day through a New Zealand winter.
Learn the biggest beginner mistakes in surfing—and how to actually pick the right board for your skill level and local waves.
Tune in now to get inspired by DJ’s story of ocean connection, consistency, and the joy of sharing surfing with others—this episode might just change the way you approach your own passions.
Follow Dee Jay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deejaymorris/
Hawkes Bay Surf School: https://www.facebook.com/HawkesBaySurfSchool/
Song - Fernweh By Nachur
**Key Points**
Surfing every day during winter has led to a deeper connection with the ocean and improved surfing skills for DJ Morris.
DJ Morris has been using a 4/3 wetsuit for the first time this winter, which has helped him adapt to the cold conditions.
DJ Morris has noticed a significant improvement in his surfing style and ability to connect with the ocean due to his daily surfing routine.
DJ Morris emphasizes the importance of matching the right surfboard to a beginner's skill level to avoid frustration and enhance learning.
DJ Morris discusses the transition from being a passionate surfer to a surf instructor, highlighting the energy and satisfaction of teaching others to surf.
DJ Morris shares his experience as a former lifeguard, including the challenges and emotional toll of searching for drowning victims.
DJ Morris mentions that the surf school is busy and continues to offer lessons through the winter, despite the cold conditions.
DJ Morris provides information on how to follow his daily surfing journey and the surf school's social media presence.
**Outline**
**Introduction to DJ Morris**
DJ Morris is a guest on the Surf Mastery Podcast, sharing their journey and experiences in surfing.
DJ Morris is a surf coach at the local Hawke's Bay Surf School and can be followed on Instagram at DJ Morris.
**DJ Morris's Surfing Journey**
DJ Morris started surfing properly around the age of 10, initially introduced to the ocean through surf lifesaving at age 7.
DJ Morris's first memorable surfing experience was catching a green wave on a Minnie Mouse longboard provided by a friend's dad.
Surfing is currently a significant part of DJ Morris's life, serving as both a source of income and an outlet.
**Surfing Every Day in Winter**
DJ Morris set a goal to surf every day throughout the New Zealand winter to deepen their connection with the ocean.
This challenge was documented on social media to maintain accountability.
DJ Morris has been using a 4/3mm wetsuit for the first time, having only worn a 5/4mm previously.
DJ Morris has not yet resorted to wearing gloves or a hoodie, managing with earplugs and a beanie.
**Impact of Consistency on Surfing**
DJ Morris believes that surfing every day has helped them achieve a perfect flow state and improve their surfing style.
DJ Morris has noticed changes in their surfing approach, including a better understanding of tides, wind, and wave patterns.
DJ Morris emphasizes the importance of patience and observation in surfing, rather than rushing.
**DJ Morris's Relationship with the Ocean**
DJ Morris has a long-standing relationship with the ocean, influenced by their family's history as fishermen.
DJ Morris worked as a lifeguard, gaining a deep respect for the ocean's power and unpredictability.
DJ Morris describes several challenging experiences as a lifeguard, including searching for drowning victims.
**Transition to Teaching Surfing**
DJ Morris transitioned from surfing as a passion to teaching it professionally, finding joy in helping others learn to surf.
DJ Morris has learned to adapt their teaching style to better suit beginners, emphasizing patience and proper technique.
DJ Morris highlights the importance of matching beginners with the right type of surfboard for their skill level.
**Common Mistakes of Beginner Surfers**
DJ Morris notes that beginners often rush their learning process and may choose inappropriate surfboards for their skill level.
DJ Morris advises beginners to start with foam boards or longboards before progressing to high-performance shortboards.
**Future Plans for the Surf School**
The surf school, run by DJ Morris, is preparing for a busy summer with school lessons and private lessons.
The surf school is in the process of creating a website, currently operating primarily through their Facebook page.
**Social Media and Contact Information**
DJ Morris can be followed on Instagram at DJ Morris (D-E-J-A-Y Morris) for updates on their surfing journey.
The Hawke's Bay Surf School can be found on Instagram and Facebook under the handle HB Surf School.
**Transcription**
**DJ Morris**
I reckon it's got me into like this perfect flow state on surfing, and I wanted to get out and get that connection properly in tune with it.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and that was a couple of quotes from today's guest, DJ Morris. DJ Morris. And this interview was done at the end of winter last year, where DJ had a goal of surfing every day throughout the New Zealand winter. In this episode we will hear about DJ's story of ocean connection and, of course, consistency, and we discover the surprising challenges and benefits of surfing every day through a New Zealand winter. DJ is a surf coach here at the local Hawke's Bay Surf School, and you can follow DJ's story on Instagram at DJ Morris, which is D-E-E-J-A-Y Morris. Links to everything in the show notes, as always, and without further ado I shall fade in my conversation with DJ Morris. When did you start surfing?
**DJ Morris**
Started surfing probably around like properly going out around the age of 10. So I actually started in surf lifesaving when I was seven. And that got me not introduced to the ocean, but just got me confident in the waves and that, and then ended up, yeah, going from those long paddleboards into a short board that someone found on the beach, I think had been fixed up. Yeah. It was an old season board and the nose had actually been snapped off and they had fixed it by just rounding the nose. And then gave me that a whack and yeah, fell in love with it. Yeah, so that was about 10 years old. And then kept going. And that was just out here. That was at Waimarama. So I grew up at Waimarama, still living at Waimarama. Have moved around a bit. But yeah, back there raising a family.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you remember like the first time you caught like a green wave? Yeah. Like really?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. I definitely remember that. It actually wasn't even on that board that I was talking about. It was on a, so my dad used to manage bars and run nightclubs and he had a mate that had a Lion Red longboard or mini mal. Mini mal. Yeah. And I remember him being like, oh, you gotta come out of the whitewash and come right out the back. And it wasn't, it mustn't have been that big. Felt big. And then he pushed me in on it, and I just remember that feeling like, whoa, okay. Did it. And then actually paddled that board back out to him so I could do it again. Yeah.
And what does surfing mean to you now? Surfing means everything to me. Like, at the moment, it's—well, it's every day. And then I'm part owner with Bronson Primer in the surf school, Hawke's Bay Surf School. So it's my income and it's my outlet and, yeah, I'm focused in on it, like super focused in on it at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Just loving it. So every day at the moment.
Tell us about that. Yeah, so surfing every day of winter, it wasn't even meant to be like this thing that it's kind of turned into. It was just kind of a goal for myself to more connect with the ocean and, 'cause I'm doing the surf lessons, I wanted to get out and get that connection properly in tune with it, and teaching people how to get in that connection. And I thought, well, through winter, I'm not the biggest fan of like cold weather in the winter here. So I was like, I'll make a challenge for myself. But then I got real into like documenting it.
And I put it out on social media and that was for like—how can I explain it—to make it accountable? Yeah. So if I did stop, people might reach out and be like, hey, you didn't even make it. So that kept it going, but then it got easier and easier. Like, well, it hasn't been hard yet. Because I love surfing and I love getting out there. There's been a couple of dicey days that were like, yeah, oh, I'm not even gonna make it out where there was no back to get out to. So I just grabbed the foam top and jumped on a couple of little ones on the inside.
But yeah, surfing every day of winter, it's been awesome. Yeah. Day 81 today.
Day 81. So what, technically there's 90 days?
Yeah. Yeah. Technically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Going through it.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh cool. And what is it, getting colder and colder as you go?
**DJ Morris**
The water—it has, but then like, I dunno if I'm getting used to it more, but there's like colder places like Te Awanga, for example. That little outlet of the river, that's real cold. Yep. And then I surfed a couple of times at Perfume Point off Napier. Yep. And yeah, that was freezing. But the wetsuits that we have now are mean. Yeah. Like can't beat them. Rocking those 4/3s, booties. It's my second season ever in my life in booties. Yeah. First season was last year and I was like, didn't know if I was onto it. And just a different feel, eh? Like I know. I liked feeling the board. Yeah. And then, yeah. Put them on and yeah. Yeah. You get to a certain age and your feet just start hurting in the cold. Like it's, you can't not wear them.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. That's definitely it. Yeah. Wait, you gone gloves?
**DJ Morris**
I didn't wanna put that one—gloves yet? Age? No gloves yet? No. Gloves and hoodies messed me up. Even I've, I've only just gotten used to the earplugs.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm. I don't hear yourself. Do you wear earplugs?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah, I wear earplugs. If I don't, I'm so prone to ear infection, so I'm just used to them now.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. I wear the surfers ones so you can still hear.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. Yeah. I got those ones. It's not the same. No. And it does take a bit of getting used to. Yeah. But, um, yeah. And my hearing's bad, like already, so when I've got those in and people are talking to me, I'm like, yep. I'm like screaming at them.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You could try the Docks plugs. Have you seen those? You could try those. Yeah. They've, they've vented. So they don't—what I find is that it's not about stopping all of the water. It's about stopping the pressure of the water going in. So there, there's these ones called vented Docks, and they've got a little hole in them so you can actually hear pretty good.
**DJ Morris**
Oh true. And they let a little bit of water in, but there's no, like lots of—there's no pressure and no lots of water going in. Yeah. Those do okay for me as well. But, um, yeah, no, earplugs are just a habit for me now. You get used to it, nice sort of thing. Yeah. But yeah, slowly getting used to it, so yep. It's good.
**Michael Frampton**
You get to know the next age bracket is when you have to wear gloves when it's cold. Otherwise your hands just hurt. Stop moving.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. Luckily I've surfed in like colder times where I remember my hands freezing up. This winter has been—like everybody's saying that it's been like quite a wet, bad winter, and I'm like, man, it's been mint for me. I don't know. Yeah. Just in a different flow of things, I guess.
**Michael Frampton**
So every, every day this winter. And has anyone joined you? Anyone jumped on the bandwagon?
**DJ Morris**
No, not really. No joining me to come every day, but heaps of people I've been surfing with. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of local guys out at WA that I kind of rope in when it gets to a decent size and I'm like, I don't really wanna surf by myself. And I go jump around there and be like, you guys want to come out? They're like, yeah, as a kid. I'm like, yeah, it's real good. But yeah, it's been fun. Yeah, definitely been fun.
**Michael Frampton**
What do you think that consistency does for your surfing?
**DJ Morris**
Oh man, I was talking to someone about this. I reckon it's got me into like this perfect flow state on surfing. And the way that this has been moving—going on TV, which is weird—it's just hooked people into it. And then, yeah, but with this surfing side, I've definitely seen a different style come out of myself because I've been changing boards up quite a lot at the moment. And I've been surfing, like to myself, real good. I don't know. It's just, yeah, like I said, connecting. Especially with the ocean and that and knowing where to be. Like I used to kind of rush surfs, like it would be on a timeline or I'd jump out just because there's a wave that I've seen. But now I can just walk down to the beach and be like, oh yeah, that looks like a good little spot. Sit there, watch it. And then even days where it's like, okay, I gotta get this done 'cause I've got other stuff to do, I can now time it like, oh yeah, I know this tide, the wind's doing this. So that connection's really helped.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm. Yeah. 'Cause you get in tune with the tide, the banks.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. The wind. And you just—and I can see the banks moving. Yeah. It's crazy. Like different little peaks and that. So it's been—yeah. Definitely helped my surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It's like a long-term relationship, surfing.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Finally got it back.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. But no, the longer you stick with it, the more effort you put in, the more it gives back, you know?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. That's it. Yeah. It's been cool, like going to just beaches along in Hawke's Bay and just, yeah, finding that right wave. And people even messaging me like, oh, there's a wave coming over here. We'll be surfing today? Yeah, I'm going out now. Okay, let's go find it.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, cool.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
How would you describe your relationship to the ocean?
**DJ Morris**
I've got a long relationship with the ocean. I love it. I can't be away from it too long, even if it is just a flat body of ocean. No swell. I grew up around it, obviously my whole life, but my dad and my granddad were fishermen. So I live off it as well, like during the—well now during the summer. Love seafood, love fish, gather from it. And then now my business is in it. So I spend a lot of time with it and then respect it as well, like a lot. Because I know, as my first job I was a lifeguard, so I know what it can take from us and what it can give. So, you know, I love, love the ocean.
**Michael Frampton**
Was any gnarly experiences as a lifeguard?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah, like we had a few. We never had drownings—like we saw them drowning and then they drowned. It was just like searching for bodies that had been. And that's pretty gnarly. Like, you know that someone's out there, but it's been too long for them to be alive, so you know that they're probably gone. But then you've got like the family there that are holding on hope and you kind of want to give them hope. But you know, an hour out there in that condition—yeah. Unless they're on the beach somewhere lost, they're definitely gone. And yeah, you grab your fins and your tube and you have to go out. Or like when I first started, 'cause I was the rookie, you jump in the water with your fins and tube. And you're just floating and there's other guys in the boat and you're just sitting out like, I wanna find them but I don't want to touch them.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Oh, that's heavy.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. But then beach crashes—oh well, yeah. People, uh, not crashes—people running into the water and there's like holes or a sandbar and just banging their knees out and like coming up and you're like, oh yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. How long did you do that for?
**DJ Morris**
So that was my first paid job. I did it—so I used to compete in it. So I did the boards and did the swimming. Then really got into the IRB, so the racing boats. It was just a bit more adrenaline really and real fun. Had a lot of mates that we all did it together. So I think I kind of left when I was around 18, 19. So I did it for—yeah, probably a good 10 years.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm-hmm.
**DJ Morris**
And then surfing kind of took over, kept that relationship going with the ocean.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
**DJ Morris**
I went straight into surfing. And just kept that up. Yeah. But then I kind of dropped out for a while as well. Some of us do. I went into the hospitality scene and that kind of took over majority of, well, a good seven to eight years.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**DJ Morris**
And I was like on and off surfing. So I was, oh yeah, go out for a wave. But kind of lost that fitness level. Was definitely it. Doing late nights and then, yeah, everything that comes with hospitality.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**DJ Morris**
So, yeah. Didn't lose touch with the ocean, but definitely lost like the flow of it. Yeah. And just, yeah, it was kind of, if I was around it, I would surf. Not like hunting a swell.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. And now it's every day obviously. And you've also bought into the surf school.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What was that transition like, going from surfing being a passion to then teaching it for a living?
**DJ Morris**
Like, I helped them out during summers for probably two years. So I got a taste of it then. And it's, yeah, like it's pretty cool as you know, like teaching someone how to surf. Just the energy and the water when people are like catching their own wave and being able to stand up and finally—it's like one of those things, when you really wanna do something, and they're the people that are coming to the beach. And then they finally do it, it's like an energy wave just comes over you. But it was a cool transition. It's been, yeah, awesome.
**Michael Frampton**
What has it taught you about your own surfing?
**DJ Morris**
Probably gaining that connection, seeing how stoked they are just to be in the water, catching anything. And then you kind of pick up little tips. Sometimes you're just in the flow of things and you're teaching them something and then you're like, oh man, I need to do that a little bit more. You know? It's, yeah, you're analyzing them and then once you go and do something and you're like, I've said to someone to do that and I'm not doing it myself. Yeah. Like, just breathe, relax, you know, things—little things.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It's a reflection of what you need. You're always teaching yourself in some way.
**DJ Morris**
Oh yeah, definitely.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned boards—what board are you riding at the moment?
**DJ Morris**
At the moment I'm riding this twin fin, J-Dub 5’8”. Like it's real thick, real easy to paddle. It's been like a hand-me-down. Well, it was made for one of our mates, Damien. Then Bronson got it and then was like, this is too short. I was like, I'll give it a go. It was like perfect for Te Awanga.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I imagine when you first started working with the surf school as an employee and now fast forward, what, four years is it?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah, been four years.
**Michael Frampton**
What's changed in the way you teach an absolute beginner?
**DJ Morris**
Probably the confidence in teaching. Like when I first started, it was kind of like, okay, I know how to surf and I know what I'm doing in the ocean. But then it was kind of relaying it to them in a way that they get it. Because I'm trying to teach—like you say, you teach yourself everything—but I'm saying it how I probably wanted to hear it, where it needs to be, not that it's dumbed down or anything, but put into terms where it's go slower. Where I'd just be like, get up, get up, get up, you can do it. You know? Then it's like, actually I'm shouting at them to stand up quicker, where it's like, okay, just breathe. Take your time. Get your balance first. Stand up.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm-hmm.
**DJ Morris**
So I think that's changed a bit. The way that I teach them is how it's kind of changed into it. And then yeah, it's been pretty cool showing them how to catch waves, surf, obviously.
**Michael Frampton**
What's the biggest mistake that you see the beginner, that early learner, make?
**DJ Morris**
Biggest mistake? Like when we are teaching them or even when you just see them?
**Michael Frampton**
Both.
**DJ Morris**
Like sometimes rushing and then kind of confidence level to what their level actually is—and probably boards. Like we were talking about. The wrong board. You just need to pick the right—well, yeah, pick the right board is probably the biggest one. I'm trying to think. Actually, last time I was seeing somebody learning, they go hard out and get, you know, performance boards from the shops that are selling them here. Like, I reckon surf shops would sell a whole lot more boards if it was for the waves that we've got here.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. I agree.
**DJ Morris**
But the industry just gives them the latest.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, whatever John John's riding, the industry pumps to them and yeah, someone comes in—I need a board—and they're like...
**DJ Morris**
And I was a sucker for that when I was younger.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. We all were.
**DJ Morris**
I was like, go in and be like, oh, that one. Then I'd paddle it out. But it was a lot lighter on the feet. But yeah, for the waves that we get here—like even when we are sending our students to go find a board and, you know, they've not just mastered the foamy, but you can tell that they don't want a foamy—we try push it always. Especially kids. Like kids, they'll probably get the foamy, but someone that's done, say, a few lessons with us and is like, what proper board do I go get, we lean them into a nice fish, big long, or even a mini mal.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep.
**DJ Morris**
Longboard. And say, start there and then start dropping down. And then you see them come back out and they're, yeah, they're on a high-performance board. You're like, and he's like, oh yeah, but he said it's like six-seven. Like, okay, I don't think I can catch waves on that board yet today.
**Michael Frampton**
I know what you mean.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. But yeah, and especially with the level of their surfing. So you're matching a high-performance board? Well, not—yeah. I don't know what they—like I said, I'm a little bit different in the way of the surf culture. I like to pick up a surfboard and feel it. And still looking at dimensions and what it's doing.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**DJ Morris**
And the new ones—ah, what is it? Liters. Liters.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**DJ Morris**
They're like, oh, you know, but I'm this weight and I've got this many liters. And I'm like, well, where are the liters? 'Cause I don't know how you're gonna paddle it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. I know what you mean. It's kind of a guide. I think liters is a guide for performance shortboards.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. Kind of. Oh, is it gonna help? Is it gonna float me? Kind of guide.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. That's about it.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. It's irrelevant otherwise.
**Michael Frampton**
And you're right. Most people—it's so funny. You go to TA and it's waist high and there's a bunch of kids on performance shortboards like pumping and not catching waves, jumping up and down.
**DJ Morris**
And then, mind you, I was one of those.
**Michael Frampton**
Screaming, "Whee, there's a wave!" Just kidding.
**DJ Morris**
You come back frustrated and you're like, oh man, should I go give them this one? And then, yeah, get out there.
**Michael Frampton**
We've all been there.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. But yeah, now a bit more foam is your friend.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah, definitely.
**DJ Morris**
No, yeah. That's super fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And those soft tops, I mean, they are fun, man. And they're pretty—nowadays, they're made pretty well.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. And now it's got me, when I'm on a shortboard, thinking about, oh, I could do a turn there, but I'm just like gliding along the wave past that section. I'm like, oh, what did I just do? Damn it. Okay. But just getting that—the line, eh—finding that perfect line and, yeah, just feeling comfortable on the wave. Especially, I love getting on bigger waves now. You know, 'cause it's been quite small lately. Today was a good little surf. But you get on—say I'm on the foamy here at knee-height waves and you're just cruising. Then you get onto a proper wave and see it stand up in front of you and you kind of just have that confidence of just standing there, just watching it. Oh, well, I find now I'm just—yeah, it's bigger, bigger, bigger. Ah, that's the one. I might not even turn on it. Get to the little end section to a little whack and then it's, that was sick.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. That was done.
**DJ Morris**
That's all it is. Surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. That's all it needs to be.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It's just the pure joy of being on a wave.
**DJ Morris**
Right. That's enough.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. That's it.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. Because that's the connection to the ocean. You're waiting for it. You're on a wave, searching for it, standing there.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Sometimes it's all it needs to be.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. That's that.
**Michael Frampton**
What's—what does the future hold this summer for the surf school?
**DJ Morris**
We're pretty busy. So we do school lessons as well. The schools come out and we take them. And then we had a real good last summer. It actually hasn't stopped, so I'm still doing lessons through the winter with people. So it's been cool. Bit different. Because you have to explain that it's cold, real cold, and they get a shock. But everybody's been amped in it. And the waves have been reasonably good. You know, we're having those offshore winds as well. And yeah, tides are all matching up to the weekends, so it's been real fun.
**Michael Frampton**
That's good.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. But the summer, hopefully we are pumping. Last summer was real good. There were some big days in there. Big days in the water.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Just staying salty really?
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So, is there a website for the surf school?
**DJ Morris**
Not at the moment. So it's just getting built. But we run our Hawke's Bay Surf School Facebook page.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay.
**DJ Morris**
That's Facebook page.
**Michael Frampton**
That's what happens here in New Zealand. People don't have websites. They just have a Facebook page.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah. It's just kind of easier to control at the moment. But yeah, the website's literally being made as we speak. So that'll come out.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. It'll be—it's just down to Hawke's Bay Surf School when it's out?
**DJ Morris**
Okay. Is it Hawke's Bay spelled out or HB? Hawke's Bay spelled out. Yep. But then our Instagram page is different because someone's got Hawke's Bay Surf School. So we’re just trying to get it back now. But it might've been made up and now no one knows the password before me.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, if someone goes on Facebook and searches Hawke's Bay Surf School, you'll come up.
**DJ Morris**
We'll be there.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And on Instagram it's HB Surf School.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And then what if people wanna follow your surf everyday journey and stuff?
**DJ Morris**
So that's on DJ Morris, just on Instagram or Facebook.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And that's D-E-E-J-A-Y?
**DJ Morris**
D-E-E-J-A-Y.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay.
**DJ Morris**
Yep. Morris, M-O-R-R-I-S.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright, cool man.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm sure there'll be people that want to check that out and come and get a lesson as well.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Try surfing if you're a local listener and haven't tried it, and yeah, Waimarama is the perfect beach for it.
**DJ Morris**
Yeah, it really is.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright, well thanks for joining us man.
**DJ Morris**
Awesome.
**Michael Frampton**
Thank you, appreciate it.
**DJ Morris**
This has been awesome.

117 Surf Every Day: How DJ Morris Found Flow in Winter Waves
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

**116 Maggie Dent - Parenting Boys with Backbone, Heart and Surfboards.** Apr 18, 2025

Are you raising boys and wondering how to guide them through risk, resilience, and real conversations—without losing your mind or your connection with them?
Navigating the journey from boyhood to manhood can feel like walking a tightrope—especially in today’s digital, high-pressure world. This episode offers a refreshing, deeply insightful look into parenting boys with empathy, science, and solid boundaries—while still letting them crash, climb, and surf their way to growth.
Learn the three foundational rules every parent should use to help kids make better choices and build integrity.
Discover how movement, like a simple walk or shooting hoops, can open powerful pathways to communication with your son.
Hear real-life stories of parenting wins (and fails) that show how warmth and structure build trust and resilience for life.
How surfing helps to shape good men.
Hit play now to discover how you can be the calm, connected parent your son turns to—no matter what.
https://www.maggiedent.com
**Key Points**
Advocating for three foundational rules for children to make better choices.
Importance of resilience, risk, and nature in parenting boys as highlighted by Maggie Dent.
Discussion on effective communication strategies, especially through small chats, for guiding children.
Highlighting the importance of allowing boys to experience the unpredictability of life and the value of nature play.
Discussing the role of surfing in developing deep friendships and its impact on mental health.
Exploring the concept of masculinity beyond societal expectations and the importance of emotional expression.
Sharing insights on grieving processes and the importance of safe spaces for emotional expression among men.
Emphasizing the significance of unconditional love and safety in parenting.
**Outline**
**Surfing and its impact on boys**
Maggie Dent discussed the positive impact of surfing on boys, highlighting that it teaches them to deal with outcomes they cannot control
Surfing was mentioned as a way to build resilience and frustration tolerance in boys
Maggie shared personal anecdotes about her sons and their love for surfing, and how it helped them reset and regulate their emotions
**Parenting boys with backbone, heart, and resilience**
Maggie Dent emphasized the importance of raising boys with backbone, heart, and resilience
She discussed the need for parents to guide boys through risk and resilience, and to have real conversations with them
Maggie suggested three foundational rules for parents to help their kids make better choices: be aware that every choice has a consequence, ensure choices do not hurt oneself or others, and do not damage the world around
She advocated for warm, connected, and responsive parenting, emphasizing the importance of boundaries and consequences
**Communication and listening in parenting**
Maggie Dent highlighted the importance of effective communication and listening in parenting
She shared her experience as a teacher and counselor, emphasizing the value of being a safe and non-judgmental listener for children
Maggie advised parents to resist the urge to immediately solve their children's problems, allowing them to develop problem-solving skills
She suggested taking a walk or engaging in physical activity to facilitate conversations and create a safe space for children to open up
**Dealing with teenage behavior and challenges**
Maggie Dent discussed the challenges of parenting teenagers, including their tendency towards risky behavior and impulsivity
She shared personal anecdotes about her sons' experiences with injuries, accidents, and emotional challenges
Maggie emphasized the importance of maintaining a warm and loving relationship with teenagers, even as they push boundaries and seek independence
She advised parents to be patient, empathetic, and understanding, and to avoid shaming or punishing teenagers for their mistakes
**Navigating the digital world and online safety**
Maggie Dent addressed the challenges of parenting in the digital age, including the exposure of children to harmful content online
She discussed the importance of monitoring children's online activities and having conversations about online safety and appropriate behavior
Maggie suggested limiting children's access to smartphones and social media, and using monitoring apps to keep them safe
She emphasized the need for parents to be aware of the potential dangers of sextortion and the importance of teaching children about consent and respect in relationships
**Masculinity and men's mental health**
Maggie Dent discussed her views on masculinity, rejecting the concept of 'toxic masculinity' and emphasizing the importance of men's emotional vulnerability and connection
She shared her experiences working with men and highlighted the need for men to process grief and trauma in their own way
Maggie advocated for men's groups and safe spaces for men to express their emotions and connect with others
She emphasized the importance of men being present and involved in their children's lives and expressing love and affection towards their partners and children
**Transcription**
**Maggie Dent**
And I think that's one of the beautiful things, you know, why I talk about why surfing was so good for the boys, because... They couldn't control the outcome. I think if every family had it and we came back to just three rules instead of too many rules is that.
**Michael Frampton**
Commonly known as the queen of common sense, Maggie Dent has become one of Australia's favorite parenting authors, educators, and podcasters. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode, a little bit of a different one. It's all about parenting. So if you're not a parent or an expecting parent, this might not be the episode for you. But if you are... Stay tuned. Maggie raised four surfers, four boys, four surfing boys. And she is a parenting expert with a podcast and 10 books. So really cool conversation. We talk about raising and guiding boys through risk resilience, real conversations. We talk about the three foundational rules that every parent should use to help their kids to make better choices. Plus much more. This episode is for any parent, not just surfers. So please share this episode with friends that could use it. A little bit of parenting help, and we all can. Without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Maggie Dent. Excellent. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you too. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
**Maggie Dent**
Total pleasure since it's something I know a little bit about. Heh.
**Michael Frampton**
Surfing and boys.
**Maggie Dent**
Resilience, risk, injuries, you name it, I've got it all. I live in Jerringong, which is south of Sydney, right on the coast of Cook. So my lawyer son lives here. My doctor son lives in Pottsville, just south of the Queensland border. One lives near Manly. And the other one is in the Margaret River area and his favourite beach is the one where three people have been eaten by white pointer sharks. Nice. And he said, like I said, you never see any of my sons happier than... After sift.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Where the good waves are is often where those big creatures are as well, sadly.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, and I think, you know, early on, as every, I think every probably woman, even more so than a man. That was, you know, I had to really give myself some really strong talking to's because I...The chances are you get killed by mosquitoes at far higher. They came with me with the stats. I love it with this pragmatism of boys and men. Now look, mozzies kill millions. Donkeys kill more than sharks, Mum. And I had to sit there and go, they're actually right. Put it in perspective, Mark. And then, you know, the other thing they say, I know I'll give you the full story to this one where they came to. So they've come down for Christmas when I lived in Dunsborough, which is near Margaret River. Somebody had been attacked in the area on the Saturday. All four boys got up, put their wetties on, and they're about walking out the door. And I'm looking at the Sunday Times front page story. And they paused and they looked and said, you're okay, Mum. And I said, no, I'm not okay. And they said, well, it's, you know, it's a really rare chance, Mum. And then one of them says, and we'll all die doing something we love. And then the third one, which I thought was the classic, the clown of the family says, anyway, it's not hungry. Ha. Only a mother of four sons would know that.
**Michael Frampton**
Gosh, how old were they when it happened?
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, that was, that would cover 22, 20, 18 and 14.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, okay. Yeah. Is that, that sort of 14–15, that's, is that the age where you just, you have to sort of let go?
**Maggie Dent**
Oh look, you know, and I think it was even before we really had the science to show, I mean, I was a high school teacher, so I taught them, and we all know the age of 14, they turn into kind of Neanderthal apes. Really. There's an awful lot of crazy behavior. 'Cause they're wired to hang out with mates and make 'em laugh and be stupid. And often it's the physicality, which many—often women don't understand. So punching and slapping and wrestling isn't a sign of aggression. It's actually a sign of connection with a lot of boys. So in my English classrooms, there were just days, I'd just be rolling my head going, no dude, that's it. Outside afterwards, right? Can we get on with the English? Oh yeah, miss, sorry, miss. You know, and that whole—they use lightness, laughter, and physicality to try to deal with the incredible stress that they're living with because they haven't got a clue what's going on. They don't know their brain is pruning everything, which means they're even more forgetful, even more poorly organized, even more impulsive, uh, and are wired for risk. When you get the science, you see them through such a different lens, Mike, and I, I loved, you know, I absolutely loved boys in that window, and that was kind of firstly before I had my own, and then even more so after I had my own, 'cause that was my house.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, and I, I have three boys. So—
**Maggie Dent**
How old are yours?
**Michael Frampton**
Eight, nine, and 12.
**Maggie Dent**
Wow. Right there. We're on the cusp of that beautiful journey, and please don't listen to all the doomsayers. You know, like I, I probably had, I reckon we worked it out when we had a couple, not long ago, my boys are now, 43, 41, 39, and 34, 35, and they were—we talked about it. We reckon there were five big moments. That were, yeah, that were really scary and a bit frightening and not necessarily involving them. More their mates. They lost a couple of mates in a car accident… mm-hmm, in a cousin, in a plane crash. There were moments where one got diagnosed with type one diabetes, knee reconstructions, crash cars, broken hearts, you name it. When you put it in that perspective, you know that with four boys. So it's not half as bad as the world paints it to be. That's why I've written my latest book. 'Cause if you get a way of communicating—and it doesn't matter if it's girls or boys—that doesn't sound like you're a grown-up who knows everything, that you're a grown-up who just damn cares and can remember how bumpy that ride was, then you know what? They'll turn to you. They'll turn to us. And quite often, it was their—the boys would actually get their mates. They come in some days and say, “Mum, can you talk to him?” And I go, “Why?” And he said, “'Cause he's being a dickhead in class. And he's gonna get in trouble, he's gonna get expelled. Can you just have a bit of a chat, but don't tell him I told you.” And so there is a genuine concern for friendships in that window. And quite often teens are more worried about their friends than they are themselves.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm-hmm. So it's one of those, you know, I call it a, a bit of a hack is that, you know, check in with how are your friends going as these exams are coming, or are any of your friends vaping? Go by the friend door and there's a more chance the door stays open. If you go straight at them, bang, it's shut. Interesting. So what—so your boys were getting you to talk to their friends. Were you one of the few adults that would actually just listen to them rather than straight away give them advice or something?
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, I think I was. I was kind of born to be that lighthouse figure. I can still remember in my boarding school days having chats to my own age group. Making sense of stuff. I don't know—did I grow—was I born old? I don't know. But also being a lighthouse figure while I was teaching, you know, the kids all knew that you can hang around and talk to Mrs. Dent. And also if they were worried about one of their friends, and in actual fact there were a couple that were contemplating suicide that their mates came and told me about. And I was able to actually be there right near that time because where are the safe people that they can turn to? So it's great if we've got a warm, loving relationship with your parents, even though you are wired to push 'em back. Because you're meant to start individuating into being an adult. It doesn't matter, girls or boys—girls start earlier than boys, which again makes boys often look like they're even thicker than they were. It's not their fault. And then as they go forward, is there a safe grown-up? And that really is why I ended up leaving teaching English. And then I became a relief teacher. 'Cause I really was drowning in English marking. So with four sons obviously. So I became the relief supply teacher. So that meant I could say no if someone was sick or—and I loved it 'cause I'm a bit of a, you know, basketball freak. So quite often I liked the phys ed classes the best, because there's not so much sitting, 'cause I'm not good at sitting for long periods of time. Then I realized, anyone can teach 'em how to write a paragraph or an essay, but I don't know. You know, not everyone can do what I can do when they're really struggling. So I did a post-grad diploma in counseling and therapy and set up a counseling and training center, which was in—oh God—1998. Yeah. And that began the whole different journey for me.
And it's been interesting as this book launched because I kind of went back to where I started. So I've locked the gate, 10 books for parents—no more. I might write fiction or something next. But I've had all these messages, you know, via socials 'cause they can find me. And there was a really big feature in Western Australia, which of course embarrasses my sons, but anyone I counseled or taught, they all were reaching out and I just sobbed for the first two weeks because of the gratitude that was coming. Because having that capacity to shut up and really listen, and kind of hear them and see them and validate them, that's something that you can learn. But for some people—and the most exceptional of our teachers and coaches have that ability—mm-hmm. But we can learn it. And I think that’s, you know, it wasn’t hard for me to know how to do it. 'Cause I was such a moody, dark teen myself.
**Michael Frampton**
So, yeah. Uh, I think as parents, often, I know when my boys—if they come to me with a problem—my initial thought is, here’s the solution. Isn’t it obvious? Yes, you idiot. But I have to tell myself, no, no. Just repeat back to them what they said—like empathy. Just hear them out, let them vent. Then quite often they’ll figure it out themselves or maybe they’ll ask a specific question. But I just always have to stop myself from just giving advice willy-nilly.
**Maggie Dent**
I know, and it’s because when they’re younger, that’s absolutely valid. Because they’re young and they’re kids. But as they go on this journey, their prefrontal is growing and the capacity to learn things is growing, even not as fast as we’d like. And boys are again, later than girls. But if we keep solving all their problems, we deny the capacity for them to be able to solve their own problems when they leave home. So in other words, we make them even more incapable of living an independent life. And I know it’s so hard, you know, when they do some of the big muck-up that I write about in the book—you know, you find the bong under the bed or there’s vapes or a used condom or whatever. Our number one first reaction as a parent—it’s biologically been proven—is to get really angry.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm.
**Maggie Dent**
And the same will happen if you lose a toddler in the supermarket. Your first reaction is anger, which apparently they don’t really know why, but we do it. And then, so you can imagine what happens with a teenager who’s just realized, or—you know, they know what’s coming. If we come at them with anger, we aren’t going to facilitate that to be a teachable moment, an opportunity for reflection, or giving them the support they need right now. And the big one there is: can you still love me even though I’ve messed up? These are the really big things. So that’s why I keep on going through—you turn up with calmness, even if you have to walk for a few hours to get yourself back into regulation. It’s worth even leaving it 24 hours. And that’s not easy for women. We are biologically wired to have it out right now. Whereas we know that’s the female brain—it goes from fired up to word center. And the boy brain and the male brain goes from fired up to the body, into the body, and then at some point later it could come up into the word center, which is why I advocate so often for taking your son for a walk.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep.
**Maggie Dent**
Go for a walk.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
You know, somewhere—if you can feed him, even better. And there’s a beautiful story that came from a dad who heard a podcast I did with Richard Fidler on conversations about this—just connect, and know if they’re hungry, they can’t listen anyway. So he—their 14-year-old boy was getting into so much trouble at school. You know, he was on the verge of getting expelled, he’d already had some suspensions, and they just couldn’t get to the bottom of it. You know, they banned everything and they punished him and it was just awful. And the dad walked in the door and said, “Just heard this lady on the radio. I’m gonna try something different.” She said, “Yeah, the school’s called again.” And he’s just called out, “Hey dude, come for a walk.” The son was very suspicious—as they will be—the first time you start coming on a different angle. “Where did you get this from?” Walked up to the Macca’s, which was a K and a half away. Mm-hmm. They just sat and ate a big bucket of chips and had a smoothie and stuff. And then on the way—halfway on the way home—the boy started to cry. He told his dad that these year 11 boys had been bullying him and they bailed him up when they caught him in the toilets, and they’d said if he dobs, they’re gonna cut him.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**Maggie Dent**
And he was able to give it all to his dad. And as he walked, you know, his dad held him and said, “No mate, that’s not gonna happen. We’ve got your back, we’ve got this.” Really. He didn’t even go into anger ‘cause it came from a different space. Right? It just came up, and it was easy to be empathetic. Anyways, he walked in the house, the boy’s called out, “Hi Mum,” and he’s gone to his room. And she said, “What the heck?” And he said, “Who would’ve thought—a walk and a bucket of chips.” Now we’ve got to the bottom of it. And he said that’s a really powerful thing for us to remember. All of those things in it. Can you just sit with me so I can get the courage first? But also the fact that my word center opens much better after movement. I use a basketball hoop—I’m a tragic basketballer. I’d shoot hoops, and then my boys, if I was worried about them—
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. It could take 20 minutes.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. And I can go, “Is everything okay? You look a bit—you sound a bit off.” And, you know, gradually little bits come out. But if I confront him in the kitchen, especially if his brothers were there—
**Michael Frampton**
Shut down.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. Yeah. And men are the same too. We connect, you know, standing side by side, doing something.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Not this eyeball stuff.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. There’s another really big part that I wrote about in *From Boys to Men* a lot, which I learned from my boys. And you gotta get the timing right. You know, like if they’ve just got out of bed—nah, it’s not a time for a conversation. They’ve got an erection in front of you, that’s not a time. If they’ve got their phone, it’s not a time. If they’re eating, it’s not a time. In school after night, it’s not a time. Getting ready for bed, it’s not a time. If they’re gaming, it’s not a time. You’ve gotta find this window. And quite often that window will be in the car, especially if you wanna have a big conversation, Mike. If you wanna just sow a seed. People keep saying, “I don’t know how to talk to my son about pornography,” or something. We don’t go at it with one big conversation. We go at it with lots of small ones. And a great way to start that conversation—as you’re driving at 110 with only your son in the car, possibly in the back seat—is to say, “Mate, I meant to mention this to you for a while. I’ve just been reading a lot of information about, you know, how many young kids and boys particularly are watching porn. And I just want to tell you that one day I want you to have fabulous sex. But I’m gonna tell you—porn won’t give it to you, mate.” That’s the mic drop. Boom. You say nothing else. You’ve dropped something that you’re gonna go up and pick up later in a different, well-timed moment. So that, you know—otherwise they just—because they can’t get out at 110.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s good. I like that framing because essentially you’re—that is what they want.
**Maggie Dent**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
And you’re acknowledging—yeah, of course you want that. And I want that for you too.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, totally right. But that is—that’s seriously not gonna do it for you. And of course I think that one of the things that’s been coming up a lot, which is quite problematic here in Australia—and maybe where you are—is boys who’ve been ranking girls. Now, when I’ve spoken to my boys over the years, and I’ve seen the ranking sheets when I was teaching—45 years ago—but it was “super hot” to “freezing cold.” Whereas now with the influence of pornography and the misogynistic content online, it’s notable. Oh, right. And totally fable. Right? So the language has changed. The intention under it is probably still in the same alignment—that it’s this kind of fun game, “let’s rank the girls,” without recognizing that it can be really, really harmful.
And then the second thing that’s quite problematic at the moment, which AI is now creating opportunities for—you know, where we can take a photo of a girl off her socials and put her in a disgusting, sexualized position—still thinking it’s funny. So that line in the sand is something I talk about a lot, which is: there’s a line in the sand when we’re being kind of funny and trying to back our mates’ life, and there’s a line where it’s actually hurtful and potentially illegal. And I’m gonna have many conversations with you so that you know where the line is in terms of the values of our home.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Because I want you to be a man who’s proud of himself.
**Michael Frampton**
Right.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. Yeah. And these choices aren’t gonna set you up on that pathway.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, there’s so many things like that where I’m not quite there with my—he’s 12 still, so we’re on the cusp of talking to some of that stuff. But mostly it’s about—it’s almost like, you know, all of his friends—we live in quite a sort of an okay area, so all of his friends have an iPhone. I’ve only bought him a flip phone two months ago, ‘cause I’m—no. I’m saying no. You can call your friends, but you’re not going on social media, having access to the internet. Not on my watch. So that’s been great. He can now call his friends, but, you know, his friends all have iPhones and they all have PlayStations in their rooms and—yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
And Mike, you do realize he can sit next to those boys on the school bus.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Maggie Dent**
And so he’s gonna be exposed to it, and he is also gonna feel the peer pressure—feel sort of left out in some sort of way.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
So how do we negotiate that? Because he sees my point of view and he’s seen—I’ve shown him some of Jonathan Haidt’s work and he’s like, “This is how bad it is. You can’t deny this.” And he gets that. 'Cause he wants to—he wants to be an athlete and he wants to look after himself. But he’s also feeling the peer pressure of, “Come around to my house and watch this,” or “Do this.” So how do we negotiate that culturally?
**Maggie Dent**
We know that not all of it is harmful. And that is, you know, I’m part of the big movement that’s trying to shape those tech companies to just shift those algorithms—because they could change the algorithms tomorrow. That would take the harmful content away from all of our kids under 18.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**Maggie Dent**
They wouldn’t see porn, they wouldn’t see the misogynistic stuff. They wouldn’t see it. And so what we’re trying to do by banning it to 16—everything, social media—is that they might go, “God, we’re gonna lose some serious coin here, so let’s just alter the algorithm because we don’t want to lose that market.” Right?
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**Maggie Dent**
And that’s really—you know, whether we can get there, I don’t know. We know all the difficulties, but banning doesn’t necessarily teach our kids. They’re going to be a digital native. So my challenge to us is, you know, as late as possible—which you’re doing really super well—but also how can they, you know, can they FaceTime their friends on their phone with your phone? So it’s actually not a call—‘cause who calls as a tween or a teen? No, we don’t. Or an app on your phone that you monitor and you keep an eye on so that they’re part of the group. And it needs to be just one—and preferably not Insta or TikTok, both a bit dodgy—but one app that the other families are aware of. So we’re actually gonna monitor one and keep them as safe as we can, knowing what is going on.
And one of the biggest challenges at the moment is it’s not just seeing pornography—it’s the sextortion. Where a 14-year-old boy really thinks it’s a 14-year-old girl that’s flirting with them online. And of course when she asks for the dick pic—you know, every boy wants to show their best friend to somebody who likes them. That’s just a little bit of a thing I cover in my seminars.
If that is a sexual predator, then the shaming that is coming up later—now it’s 94% of boys aged 14 to 17—and we have had boys die by suicide as a sequence of that shaming. So you can see again, those are the conversations if you keep having with your son, he’s aware of what dangers are out there. But also, one day, you know, we are gonna step you forward into this space because you can access fantastic support services on there. There are some—you know, if you’re into music, there are some great music ones that you can have, you know, playlists. If he’s into surfing, he can watch other dudes who are doing stuff. Do you know what I mean?
So while we need to know it’s potential for harm, we need to know it still has a potential for connection, which is a really big part of this journey. But the fact that you’re in that sort of an area, you’re having those conversations, and you are letting him access those things—and he’s already active. If he’s not out there doing some things in real time, then I get worried. If it’s not organized sport, is it riding your bikes? Is it going surfing with friends? Is it—you know, what are we doing in real time? Because I’m extremely concerned about our kids with social anxiety ‘cause they’ve just been in a bedroom.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Maggie Dent**
Staying safe—technically—but no capacity for making great choices in the social context of the world, which also means your capacity to be a resilient, capable, independent human has been compromised. Because those opportunities have been displaced. By the damn phone.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Well, all three of my boys are—they’re mad on football. They love sports and they’re always out and about and doing that, and they’re very confident. They’ll talk to anyone. So—
**Maggie Dent**
They’re doing well. They’re doing well in that regard. They happen. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
But my question would be that, like—obviously this—as they get older, they’re gonna get exposed to more and more stuff, especially once they get to high school. And you know, if he doesn’t have a smartphone with access to the internet—
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Someone does. And he’s gonna get exposed to a lot of stuff. So I guess, what’s the overarching principle? Because you can’t be there all the time and you can’t—you also don’t want to be. Right? What’s the overarching principle? If there’s one thing you could give to all parents, what should be consistent throughout the boys’ life?
**Maggie Dent**
I think it’s a very simple—and it’s a three-rules—that I think if every family had it and we came back to just three rules instead of too many rules is that: you know, as you go forward in life, you’re gonna make choices. And what I want you to be aware of is every choice has a consequence. So I want you to be aware that the choices you make don’t hurt yourself, and they don’t hurt anyone else, and you’re not damaging the world around you. Right? So it’s a call to—yeah, that you’re gonna make some impulsive choices. And if you do, then how are you gonna make it right? That’s what grows into a good human later, is—we are all gonna make mistakes. And we still do. Trust me, I still do. So I’m gonna call it that—ah, that wasn’t a very good choice, was it? Now I need to make it right. And I need to make sure that I’m gonna think about what I might do next time.
So it’s just having those ongoing conversations totally, rather than coming at our kids with the shame, the blame, and the punishment, which is still lingering from last century. We know now it’s not terribly effective. And what it tends to do is create shame inside people. And shame inside people means the inner critic becomes even louder and they can really struggle with this sense of self and their sense of self-worth.
So when we have great humans who create those opportunities—even if you just grab a small chat of something you’re watching on TV—you know, “God, what do you reckon? That wasn’t really consent, was it? They just moved on in, didn’t they?” Just drop these little moments. What happens then if you are safe—we want our kids to know if something happens online or something happens in the real world one day—because it can happen anywhere: at a party, on the way home from school, or one of your friends is doing something really harmful—we want them to turn to us or a significant lighthouse figure.
And so we say to them, “If it’s not me, you know, who else is it?” You’ve got to have a safe landing place on this journey to adulthood. And that—the big line underneath it—is just: no matter what.
**Michael Frampton**
So…
**Maggie Dent**
I’m gonna love you no matter what. And your lighthouse figure’s got your back no matter what. But together, we’re gonna work forward through this. Because the most successful people in life have all made mistakes. And it’s not a sign that there’s something wrong with you—it’s a sign you are human. And we all have hard times. So I just want you to know, if I’ve got a hard time, I’m gonna let you guys know so that we can kind of gather together. And that’s a really big message—it’s you’re never on your own.
Because that was the thing when I worked with a number of teens who were contemplating ending their lives—they would say, “No one cares. I don’t matter. And the world would be better off without me.”
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm.
**Maggie Dent**
We can fix those.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Shame is a big, big, big one. And like you alluded to, I think it was passed down from my parents and the parents before that. That’s kind of—that’s the way they did it.
**Maggie Dent**
That’s it. And there was physical abuse—it was a normal way. If you didn’t, you know, spare the rod, you’re gonna have a horrible child. And fortunately we have the science of child development now that shows that warm, connected, responsive parenting—it’s just not fluffy stuff. It’s what you do in those big moments. Where you—how you hold the boundaries. You don’t clip your kid around the head to get that boundary. You don’t give them a belting if they’re drunk. But you’re coming alongside them to reaffirm that boundary and that there may be a consequence as a result of not being able to do something.
And I love a beautiful example a dad told me—he said he got it off me, the idea came off one of my seminars, which I can’t even remember—but it was you give them three chances. So if they’re leaving their bike—and that’s what this boy was doing—he’d ride home from school, leave his bike straight behind the car. His dad had said to him—and then he’d come home from the seminar—he said, “Mate, I’m gonna give you three goes to make sure you can put that away without me having to do it ‘cause I don’t wanna drive over your bike.”
Anyway, after two goes, it was still dropped, and the boy comes home from school. He says, “Dad, I can’t reach my bike.” He says, “Why is that, mate?” He says, “Yeah, it’s up near the ceiling in the garage.” And he said, “Yeah, yeah, it’s gonna stay there for a bit.” And he says, “Why?” He says, “Remember I had that conversation—that if you—you know—then I’m—well, it’s obvious you can’t do it yet. And I’m worried about your bike and I’m worried about you. So let me know when you are ready to have another go at riding your bike and putting it in a safe place. And I’ll get it down. But I reckon you can have a few days without it.”
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**Maggie Dent**
Right. See the difference in the learning?
**Michael Frampton**
No, I like that.
**Maggie Dent**
It is technically a form of discomfort. I believe you just need to create discomfort—not punishment.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Punishment is when we hurt them. And this is mildly uncomfortable and inconvenient. And I have—one of mine actually, he was into that sort of 15-year-old wanting to punch his 13-year-old brother, but it was harder than he used to do it. So he was trying to be a macho male and he’s the alpha boy. And I gave him—you know, these three—I said, “Look mate, if you’re unable to pull that back, then I’m having your surfboard for a week.” He said, “No you won’t.” I said, “Yes, I am.” Anyway, yep, and he’d kind of—you know, he’d been kind of trying, but he still swung and gave him a good crack around the TV one night. And so I said, “So it’s a week. I’ve got your board. It’s in my room.” Was not happy. Was not happy. Anyway, I was the worst mother on Earth of course.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm-hmm.
**Maggie Dent**
And I was quite happy to be the worst mother on Earth ‘cause that’s actually what happens with good parenting. And he knew then there would be—yep. Anyway, I got to day six and I sat down with him and said, “So, what do you reckon about this kind of—have you got an idea around it now? What else you can do? Can you back it off?” And he said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Well, you can have your board.” He said, “Not a week?” And I said, “Well, you’ve just said you reckon you’ve got it, so I reckon I’ll give you another chance ‘cause I believe in second chances. I also believe in third chances. And we’ll see how we go with it.” And I never had another problem.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm.
**Maggie Dent**
However, they did bring it up at my 50th birthday with the other one. I had a sugar freak—totally, right—and he was—what was he doing? He was doing something else equally as annoying. Anyway, I said, “No, there will be no dessert for a week.” And he went, “You wouldn’t do that. You know I couldn’t live without that.” Anyway, so he’s got up at my 50th birthday and said, “Mum is so tough. Did you know once she—she wouldn’t let me have dessert for a week?” And everyone just fell on the ground laughing. And he just is still really, like, “My mum was the toughest mum ever.” And that behavior also didn’t happen again.
**Michael Frampton**
Isn’t that funny?
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Right? So they’ll hold—they’ll hold onto that: “I didn’t have sugar for a week.” It’s better than, “I got the strap,” that’s for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Right?
**Maggie Dent**
Yes. Generations—man, you got the belt. Oh God. I love it because it’s all about perspective. But what it’s done is it’s just said, “Look, I’m holding this boundary ‘cause I’m the adult and you don’t have power over me.” We work together with most stuff—you have choices. And that’s another big thing I think. Where we had no autonomy in the past—except we did have a lot of autonomy, ‘cause we weren’t in the house very much. Kids in those previous generations, “Make sure you’re back when the lights come on,” had not—so they had a massive amount of free autonomy.
And then they came into a tough system. But they actually had that. So today they almost have too much freedom without boundaries, which doesn’t help you make good decisions later. ‘Cause you get into a work environment and you’ve got to be there at a certain time. You’ve got to actually work, even if you’re not feeling like it or it’s boring. You don’t develop those things if you’ve been able to get away with those mildly uncomfortable things like chores. And those sorts of things.
I was super tough. My boys—if they broke a surfboard, they got the big foamy for the next few months till a birthday or Christmas, and I gave them specific chores to earn money towards their new board. And I can remember once they all came home—similar ages—and I said, “I was pretty tough, wasn’t I, about that?” And they said, “Well, actual fact Mum, we’ve already had a conversation about this and we are really glad you did. Because we really value our stuff. We look after our boards, our wetties, our cars. Whereas we’ve got friends that just trash their stuff.”
And I went, “Oh, okay.” So isn’t it interesting—as their prefrontal lobe grows and they start reflecting through a different lens other than a teenage boy lens—they land on a very different perspective of it. Because they still were surrounded by a warm, loving human. But she just had boundaries that were not negotiable. And I was a good cook. That was another reason.
**Michael Frampton**
But that must have been quite like—as a parent—to set a boundary like that. And whilst it’s not a punishment per se, it’s more of, you know—it ends up punishing you, doesn’t it?
**Maggie Dent**
Oh, it always—
**Michael Frampton**
It’s a long week.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
And that’s why—
**Maggie Dent**
Welcome to parenting. You know, if we wanted our children to think that they’re gonna run around in a field of daisies and everything’s gonna be lovely—we are dreaming.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. But you got that—you got that gratification when they were probably over 25. Once they realized, you know.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things—you know why I talk about why surfing was so good for the boys—because they couldn’t control the outcomes. So at times, you know, they’d go out with great enthusiasm, they’re sure they’re gonna get the best waves and it’s gonna be the peak moment of their life. And some blooming offshore wind happens, or something happens, and it all flattens out and they get back and they’re really pissed off with it.
So it’s really good that they know what discomfort feels like—or what we call frustration tolerance—because I feel today’s, many of today’s kids—we pass, we change pass-the-parcel rules so they don’t get sat at a birthday party—so they’re actually less capable of dealing with setbacks and hard times and things that don’t work out how they want. Whereas that was one of those beautiful gifts that I felt going surfing was providing them—not just once or twice, it was, you know and just recently there was about a five-week stint here where there was no surf. And my surfer—my son who’s a lawyer—so he works really long hours from home, and he was in the end—you know, he’s got into the second week and said, “Oh, I’m just going swimming now.” Right? He missed the ocean so much, he’s just gone for a swim in the ocean pool. 'Cause it just—it resets him.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
It’s like—they’ve all said it’s a part of their mental health. It resets them into something that nothing in the home or in the—nothing else does it. They’ve all played different sports, but surfing’s the one that resets them. And I think it’s that profound connection with Mother Nature in a way that—it’s always familiar. Salty water smells and tastes like salty water every time, right? And the ebb and flow of waves—it’s kind of, after all these years, she’s like a second mother figure that holds them until they reset.
So it’s a beautiful capacity of self-regulation that is following them into adulthood. And I’ve spoken to some older surfers and they said that sometimes, “I don’t care if I don’t get a wave.”
**Michael Frampton**
Yep.
**Maggie Dent**
“I just—getting on the board and paddling out and just waiting—that is where I reset. That’s where I have a chance to ponder and reflect or just—” And it was one of the boys’ mates who said to me once—he was probably only about 20 and he had had some really big stuff going on in his life—and he said, “The best place for me to figure out where shit is going down is waiting for a wave.”
And I felt, what—*isn’t that gold*? Another boy said to me—he wrote in his English class, he was in year 11, which is 16—and he said, “The closest you can get to God is in that blue tube—is in that wave.”
And I—that’s when I realized it was way bigger than me. ‘Cause I—seriously, I’m a farmer’s daughter, there was no surf near me, no waves. And I swim in ocean pools ‘cause I know I’m not gonna get eaten by a shark. But I’m never gonna go—no waves scare the heck out of me, right? So it took me a while to really comprehend what was going on on many different levels.
And why me having to get out of bed early every weekend to go and look for bloody waves was the best thing I could do as a mother of boys who liked to surf. Even if they didn’t get one, we drove from beach to beach to beach or whatever. The banter in the car, the conversations about which directions, them working it out together, they were problem-solving together, they were communicating together. I just—I learned so much being a witness to something I didn’t understand.
And originally, in my days, the only people who surfed were dopeheads, weren’t they? Which is the other reason I think—just being able to expose them to the unpredictability of life. And that risk is something that you can get better at if you have opportunities. Which is why I’m a nature play advocate. Why I want the long monkey bars back. Why I want them climbing trees.
Our kids can get better at it if we actually allow them to move into those spaces with their own intuitiveness and their own early warning systems and their own—because they actually are wired to keep themselves alive. And we shouldn’t have to be there always plucking them out of things so that they stay safe.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Safety is not such a good thing.
**Maggie Dent**
No, I agree. Let them make the mistakes while they’re young and made of rubber, and the consequences are a lot smaller than when they’re 15. That gives them that—like you said—the autonomy. Right. And the self-confidence.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I love those analogies with surfing you’re talking about. ‘Cause surfing is something that’s so much bigger than us. Obviously you didn’t know it back then, but since your boys started, books like *Blue Mind* have been written.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
We know how getting out into nature—and especially with water—how it affects the brain. Inherently, whether you realize it or not, your subconscious brain realizes how risky it is to enter the ocean. So there’s—you’re satisfying that risk, connection with Mother Nature, the unpredictability/slash safety boundary, and all of that.
**Maggie Dent**
When I look back to the—and that was really the first book I ever read was Steve Biddulph’s *Raising Boys*. And I remember when he wrote *Manhood* and he talked in there—‘cause I’ve done a lot of work with men and I think it’s partly ‘cause I spent most of my childhood with my dad—‘cause he was my attachment figure, not my mum—that I have an ability to see a lens through both male and female.
And I’ve worked a lot in shearing sheds and in recovery from disasters and things. And when I talk to men, the understanding too of making sense of stuff through inner processing—and that men are actually a lot deeper than they’re perceived to be—and that when they work out their own values around things, they’re quite deep.
Whereas sometimes—this is a sweeping generalization—women are often shifting around and not being quite so anchored.
So learning really that Steve talks about the wild man. And if we recognize that we are still biologically linked to our earliest of mankind, the number one—the two biggest roles for men were to keep everyone else safe and alive. So it was to protect and to provide. And there are so many of those biological drives that still tend to drive our—and also the females as well, even though we can do either side of things. You know, we have amazing women in our armed forces and fire response—firefighters and things—so we know that we can. There is a proportion that can swap over. But I think there’s something about the wildness, the uncontained part of that. And I kept suggesting that it’s a really good thing for men with their mates to go and have a few wild days.
Just the same as women love going and—whatever, book club weekends or whatever. It’s really good for that. If you’ve got a friendship circle, it’s incredibly cup-filling to stop having to be responsible for your family and your partner and whatever for just a couple of days. And it—whatever they wanna do. Whether it’s a golfing weekend, and there’s something that is about filling us up. ‘Cause it allows almost like the boy within us—or the girl within us—to just stop having to be responsible all the time. And it’s usually—whatever fills that cup.
And sometimes it’s fishing trips, it’s golfing trips, it’s surfing trips. So two of mine have been on surf trips with their mates from high school this year. And listening to them and—yeah, it was just—you know, magical. And also you don’t realize that sometimes guys’ friendships were actually formed early in life. So it’s another thing that surfing often does. Of course, you can play in different sporting teams. But if you go surfing with the same kind of guys, you are actually deepening a bond of connection even through the silence of those moments.
And often guys don’t have as much time later in life to form the same depth of friendship. So a lot of them—it’s linked back there. I read a study recently—it’s 400 hours to develop a deep friendship.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow.
**Maggie Dent**
So you can see how, if you’re in an area and you stay in that area and you hang out with certain boys, it’s often—that’s where your 400 hours will come from. Whereas with girls and women, they’ll prioritize hanging out with a new friend till they build up their 400 hours, so they can actually create new, significant friendships. I found that really fascinating because I’ve written a piece about fragile boy friendships and that they often just have to be in proximity. And we’re all busy now, and parents are more busy, there’s not much neighborhood play, and so they’re not getting the same amount of 400 hours to develop a friendship that they look back on and—
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
—which is interesting.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, does that make sense?
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And even—yeah, just sitting there with a friend, not—you don’t have to be talking. You just—you know—you’ve got each other’s back. You’re sitting there in the ocean or—
**Maggie Dent**
Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
Even if the other one’s in the car, you still—you know you’ve got each other’s back.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, so interesting. And one of the beautiful things I found—so my oldest had a battle with bowel cancer. He was diagnosed on his 40th birthday, which wasn’t exactly the gift he wanted. And what I loved was how much support he got from not just his brothers but his mates he surfed with. They stepped up.
People often talk about guys not being really open and honest—I was just blown away. And yeah, it was—it was a big part. ‘Cause I couldn’t fill that cup, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
As his mum, neither could his wife. But those mates—you know, they were nearly on a plane over, the ones from WA. And the ones that were scattered around—they checked in at times and they asked big questions. He was able to really own it. Not just say, “Oh, it’s fine. It’s all good. I’m handling it.” No, they wanted to know the ins and outs.
And so again, that proximity of time that they’ve spent means that we are more likely to turn up in the crisis moments. And then, you know, one of the biggest issues that we are noticing with men’s mental health later in life is loneliness.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Maggie Dent**
So that’s yet another thing I think you’ll find in significant surfing communities. You’ll have older guys still surfing, still ready to have a chat, still—you know what I mean? So not as significantly lonely as without something like that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Surfing gives everything—almost gives community as well. All of that. As long as it’s not a job and doesn’t provide you money, it almost gives everything else.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. And of course you help lots of other surfers who need to make money from that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Maggie Dent**
I go right back—in Albany, what was her name? Jodie—what was Jodie’s last name? She was one of the first female surfers out there, around Layne Beachley’s time. But it was really interesting ‘cause she had brothers, so she was kind of part boy.
And the skate track opened up over there—the first time we ever had a skate—skateboard. It was the first one in Australia. It’s interesting, isn’t it? It was set up by her dad and a lot of whole guys that were in town. And so watching it—watching her—there were days she wagged it, you know, because the surf was good. And there was one teacher who would probably be okay with that. And that was me.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Get ‘em outside. Everyone should be outside more. Sitting in classrooms is the worst thing for them, isn’t it? In some ways.
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah. Hopefully that changes one day soon.
**Michael Frampton**
And you touched on something I’d like to ask you about. You mentioned men—traditionally providers and protectors. That leads me to a slightly taboo question for the times we are living in, but—how would you define masculinity?
**Maggie Dent**
Oh golly. And I’m a really passionate believer that there is no such thing as toxic masculinity.
**Michael Frampton**
Thank you.
**Maggie Dent**
I get really cross when we label it like that because I’ve worked—I’ve been surrounded by exceptional men and I meet them all the time. So it’s not the gender that is toxic. There are toxic males. But I’ve also met many toxic females. So I guess my—you know, being surrounded by men and my dad was an exceptional man as well—is that I think the man of today, given the societal shift towards men turning up to want to be equal, team parents, wanting to turn up with their big heart—it’s very much exactly what Steve Biddulph had talked about all those years ago: that we want men who turn up with backbone and heart.
So we actually—there are times that we need your physical capacity to be strong and stabilize the ship. But we also know that in our relationships, you don’t have to be the stoic, tough guy anymore. And that in actual fact, in my work around relationships and counseling, especially around trauma and death and dying, is that when a man owns his struggling to a female partner or wife, what happens is she then activates her masculinity, and she becomes this absolute fierce lioness. And she’ll cover that guy’s back like you won’t believe. He’ll be so supported so he can stay in that vulnerable state getting whatever support he needs.
What happens though if he shuts down and keeps it from her? Then there will be just more and more distance. And he will struggle alone. And that’s why one of the reasons that so often with a major death in a family of a child, there’s a really high degree of divorce. Because men are still driven by those big societal things that you’re supposed to be tough, you’re supposed to deal with it—you know, toughen up.
Where in actual fact, that’s not how we process major trauma. And one of the experiences I had, which I treat with incredible respect, was I was called—I’d already been into an area in Western Australia where there was massive bushfire. And at the small community outside, these guys had fought for five days with no extra support. They’d lost most of the primary school, many farms, and they lost one of their most significant community members and two of his workmen. So they were shattered, right?
So I’d gone and run a couple of community seminars talking about recovery and stuff. And then the men, about three months later, they found some funding to get me to come back, and it was a shed full of men. And what they wanted to know was, why were they still feeling so lousy?
So I had to put it through the context of, well, you know what? You went to fight, as you are biologically wired to fight—to be the hero and defender of your community—but every day you are driving around and you are seeing how you failed. You see that it didn’t—so that’s feeding into you a sense of not enough. Not all that shit that you’ve been told—you have to be the hero and everything. And I said, what you’ve got is also grief.
You are grieving not only the guy you lost—you’re grieving where your community was before. You’re grieving that there are so many that are really on their knees. And that’s grief. And grief is just a bitch of a thing because it lasts so much longer than you think.
But you’re also dealing with what I call situational distress. And that’s that continual reminders of it. And the guy who was killed in the fire—his twin sons were in the front row. And so it was a really powerful moment for the guys to realize that when people keep—your wife keeps saying, “Why aren’t you talking about it? You need to talk about it,” I said, it’s not actually really helpful for a lot of men. Talking works for women—it doesn’t work for men.
So I need to give you permission that you are actually processing so many layers of grief at the moment—that that’s why you are tired, why you’re even more grumpy, why you’re finding it hard to get out of bed—it’s because you are processing it. But you are processing it, and you are probably halfway through it. But it’s not a magical, “Oh God, today it’s all over.”
But I’m gonna give you permission that if you do actually feel like you want to sit down and just howl—you have it. You have permission from this group. You will never be judged in this area.
And then kind of after, when I left—it was interesting because about two weeks later, BlazeAid is this beautiful organization where retired farmers and men with their wives turn up with caravans and they rebuild fences for free. It’s just the most beautiful thing. And the BlazeAid people—it was about four or five caravans—they’ve always got a campfire going. And over the next few weeks, every now and then about nine o’clock at night, a farmer would turn up with a beer and just have a yarn around the fire.
And quite often—that’s when the tears were coming.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
So they don’t want to cry, they don’t want to break down in front of the woman they love particularly, or their children.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
But they will if there’s another safe place for that. And that’s something, when you understand it, it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it?
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, it does. And we’re seeing a lot of men’s groups that are facilitating that sort of stuff coming up a lot too. So that’s good.
**Maggie Dent**
Ah, so good. My hubby—he joined a Men’s Walk group during COVID and it’s been the best thing. Like he—yeah, he and that group—and in that, he’s developed a new friendship with a guy he really likes. And I’ve just seen such a happier husband.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
But I could have told him till the cows came home, “A bit of exercise would be good for you.” But what he actually needed—he was—he actually needed the company. He was lonely. Because there’s only so much of our cups we can fill.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
And I think that’s—and also the men—you know, the story that we tell ourselves is sometimes incorrect. You know, the narratives we’ve learned over the years.
And there was this beautiful man who I had actually supported—his—I was a bereavement support person and a death doula—supported his wife as she died. And she had two sons—beautiful sons. And he was there like every day. He was just full-on, right there. He is a beautiful man.
And after the funeral, which was a beautiful celebration of her life, and the boys spoke beautifully in that—anyway, I just noticed the dad walking like in an angry walk down the car park. And I thought, well, that doesn’t look right. Anyway, so I wandered off after him and he’d slid down behind a car and he was just crouched on the ground.
And I said, “I’m just checking in mate—what’s going on?”
He said, “I can’t believe it. I can’t believe that in all that time that she was sick, I never actually got to tell her I loved her. It just got stuck in my throat. And now she’s dead and I can’t tell her.”
I sat down next to him and said, “Women are not quite that shallow. You were there every day. She knows.”
I said, “Can you see that same thing again? What have you been conditioned to think? And how easy is this next generation of men—telling their kids they love them, and telling their partners that they love them, or turning up?”
Look, you turn up to a playground in Sydney—when I’m up there sometimes—and there aren’t any women. There are just dads with babies tied on, toddlers, and you’re just—they’re absolutely nailing it.
And that’s the reason I did *The Good Enough Dad* podcast. Because I wanted to give dads voices to own. That it’s still a struggle because there’s no game book. Like they said, “Give me the game book.” Well, there is none for parenting.
And that you’re gonna have meltdowns, you’re gonna have arguments, gonna get frustrated at your kids. And that’s—every parent does it. But there’s this slightly different lens—“Am I supposed to fix shit?” So am I supposed to fix that toddler who’s yelling and screaming? No mate, no. That’s what they’re meant to do at that age.
Oh see, I had a game book and what I really loved about it was when I asked all 26 of them at the very end—I said, “Okay, so what’s the one thing you want your kids to learn from you as their dad?” You should see it—the depth of the responses. Honest to God, the number of times I got tears.
And that’s what I loved the most—was giving men an opportunity to own their muck-ups. Own the bits they’re doing good. What they found hardest when they became a dad.
And some of them were really older dads. Some had gone through 10 years of IVF. Some had lost a baby at birth. So some of them had a real story.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
But what I wanted them to say—and that’s the depth of men. They actually have already worked it out. It was beautiful to be able to share those.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s a cool story. I like that. Wow. It’s just coming up on the hour.
**Maggie Dent**
Thank you so much for your time.
**Michael Frampton**
Really appreciate it. I’ve listened—a friend of mine put me onto you about three or four months ago actually. He’s a father of three, lives in Avalon—Nick. He’s a big listener and a reader of your books, and I’ve been absorbing your podcast and your work ever since and learning so much.
**Maggie Dent**
Oh, my boys are pretty happy we were having a chat—like I’m talking to the right sort of people for a change.
**Michael Frampton**
I love it, don’t you? Parenting is—it’s hard. I just love putting the podcast on and just getting little bits from you and your guests and it just helps put the pieces together and build your own overarching principles to—
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah, and there’s no—you know, people kind of sometimes look to an expert and I say, “No, look, I’m not in your home.” Right? What I can give you are possible suggestions. But your child is a one-offer. There’s only ever gonna be one of them. And you are the only parent that is—you know what I mean? So yeah, sure. These are guidance, but at the end of the day, you are the best person. You are your kid’s best bet.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Maggie Dent**
Provided they know how fiercely and unconditionally you love them.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s it. Yeah. I always tell my kids, “Here in this home, you are safe and you are loved.”
**Maggie Dent**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
No matter what happens, come back here. No matter what—we can talk about anything. ‘Cause you’re safe and you’re loved.
**Maggie Dent**
No matter what.
**Michael Frampton**
That—I keep it that simple. No matter what.
**Maggie Dent**
Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright. Well Maggie, thank you so much.
**Maggie Dent**
Thank you.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome.
**Maggie Dent**
Cheers.

116 Maggie Dent - Parenting Boys With Backbone, Heart And Surfboards
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

115 Handling Aggressive Surfers: Surf Coaching Tactics for Confidence, Respect & More Waves Apr 08, 2025

Have you ever been snaked, dropped in on, or steamrolled by an aggressive surfer who seems to think they own the ocean? Find it hard to deal with localism?

Navigating the lineup isn't just about catching waves—it's about dealing with egos, entitlement, and sometimes flat-out intimidation. If you’ve ever felt powerless or frustrated by alpha surfers who constantly push the boundaries of etiquette, this episode offers a crucial shift in mindset and approach.

Learn how to gain respect in the lineup—even from surf legends like Laird Hamilton.
Discover the psychological principles behind why some surfers bully and how to respond effectively.
Get practical tips for standing your ground calmly and confidently without escalating conflict.

Hit play now to learn how to hold your own in the lineup and start catching the waves you deserve.

Key Points

Introduction of the topic on dealing with aggressive surfers and the importance of standing up for oneself in the lineup.
The host shares a personal anecdote about dealing with Laird Hamilton, emphasizing the need to stand up for oneself and not be a willing victim.
Discussion on the psychological principle that aggressive surfers often connect through conflict and the importance of facing conflict to gain respect.
Advice to match the energy of aggressive surfers and be willing to engage in conflict to earn their respect and avoid being bullied.
Caution about confronting certain individuals, such as psychopaths, and the suggestion to ease into confrontations in crowded lineups.
Reiteration that being bullied in the surf is due to being a willing victim and the importance of not being conflict avoidant to connect with dominant surfers.

Outline

Dealing with Aggressive Surfers

Michael Frampton discusses strategies for handling aggressive surfers, emphasizing the importance of standing up for oneself and adhering to surf etiquette.
Michael shares a personal experience involving Laird Hamilton, highlighting the need to confront aggressive behavior calmly and confidently to gain respect.
The narrative illustrates how matching an aggressive surfer's energy and being willing to face conflict can lead to mutual respect and cooperation.
Michael advises that experienced surfers, especially those who exhibit dominant behavior, will test others. Demonstrating skill, respect for lineup etiquette, and confidence can earn respect.
It is noted that while confronting aggressive behavior is important, one should be cautious and read the situation, especially in crowded lineups, to avoid unnecessary conflict.
Michael suggests that if confrontation is not feasible or safe, finding another surfing spot might be a better option.

Psychological Principles in Surfing and Life

Michael discusses psychological principles relevant to both surfing and everyday life, particularly the dynamics of conflict and respect.
He explains that many dominant individuals connect through conflict and may take advantage of those who avoid it, suggesting that facing conflict can sometimes lead to connection and mutual respect.
Michael advises that if someone is consistently causing problems, such as snaking or dropping in, it may be necessary to match their energy and engage in conflict to resolve the issue.
He emphasizes that surfing is a competitive activity where waves are a limited resource, and surfers need to be assertive to catch the best waves.

Avoiding Conflict with Psychopaths

Michael warns about the presence of psychopaths in surfing and advises caution when confronting aggressive behavior.
He suggests easing into confrontations and reading the situation to avoid dangerous encounters.
Michael emphasizes the importance of knowing when to confront and when to find another surfing spot to ensure safety.

Surfing Etiquette and Respect

Michael stresses the importance of surf etiquette and mutual respect among surfers.
He highlights that standing up for oneself and adhering to lineup etiquette can lead to a more harmonious surfing experience.
Michael advises that experienced surfers will test newcomers, and demonstrating confidence and respect can help earn their respect in return.

Transcription

Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and in today's episode, we're gonna learn how to deal with the aggressive surfer.

The arrogant surfer, the take-every-wave surfer, the entitled surfer. We all know who this person is—the person that snakes everyone, drops in on everyone. They are everywhere. How do you deal with this? The first thing you gotta remember is it takes two to tango. Every bully needs a willing victim. Let me tell you a story about how I dealt with the literal take-every-wave attitude of Laird Hamilton.

I used to surf this novelty spot on an outside reef in Southern California. And every now and then, I'd cross paths with Laird. Always tried to be friendly and say hi. He would always just blank me. And then it got to a stage where he started surfing basically on my schedule. We'd almost paddle out together at first.

It was the same thing. I'd try and be friendly to Laird, and he would just completely ignore me and do his thing—take every wave. He was on a standup foil, which was a wave-catching machine, and he himself is a bit of a wave-catching machine. His ability to be in tune with the best wave of the set was pretty admirable.

But even when it was my turn, he'd always just come straight at me on his SUP, on his standup foil. Having Laird Hamilton come straight at you on a foil SUP is very intimidating. And the first couple of days, the first couple of surfs this happened, I just backed down and, "Okay, yeah, take that wave, Laird. I'll catch the next wave of the set."

But after two days of this, I thought, you know what, if you lead, I'm going. And a set wave came through, and I wanted the biggest wave of the set. So did he. But he'd already just taken the biggest wave of the previous set. And I thought, you know what? It's my turn. I'm gonna hold my ground.

And same as before, he got in a little bit earlier than me, and he was pointed straight at me. But I put my blinkers on and I caught the wave. He got scary close, but at the last second, he turned away from me and he continued to surf the unbroken, the shoulder part of the wave, which you can do on a foil board.

And I continued to surf my style of surfing, which was closer to the whitewater. And as we were paddling back, he said, "Hey, that was my wave." I stopped paddling and sat up on my board and looked him straight in the eye and with calm confidence I said, "No, it was my turn." And he immediately gave a cheeky smile and paddled off.

As I joined him at the takeoff zone and sat up on my board, he said in this friendly voice, "Oh, was that a New Zealand accent? Which part of New Zealand are you from?" And from that moment on, we just chatted and swapped waves.

As soon as I chose not to back down and to stand up for—not necessarily my rights—but just general surf etiquette of, "We're both surfing. We're both capable and confident enough to be out here. We can just take turns." As soon as I did that and stood up for myself in a calm way, I instantly gained respect. And that is when he actually engaged with me.

Experienced surfers, especially alpha surfers, will test you. They will intimidate you. But once you prove your skills and you show respect to the lineup etiquette, and you conduct yourself with confidence, you will be respected.

But if you back down and let yourself be intimidated and you essentially gift that person the waves, they will take more than their fair share. Now, that's an extreme example with Laird, but Laird’s an extreme person. And he was being a twat. He was really pushing me and testing me.

But I still, in the beginning, in the first two days when that was happening, I showed him respect. He's a better surfer than me. He's older than me. He probably surfed that spot more than me. But then when it came time, when push came to shove, I held my ground.

The principle here is that I matched Laird's energy and I was willing to face the conflict. Remember, it takes two people to tango. Every bully needs a willing victim.

Another psychological principle here that is relevant not just in surfing but in your everyday life, is that often these alpha males—or the extroverted person, whoever you wanna label them—they actually connect through conflict and they take advantage of those who are conflict avoidant.

So if you're feeling any sort of domination or bullying happening in any part of your life, look that person in the eye and talk about it. Face them and dive into that conflict. You might be surprised—it's actually how you connect with them, because for them, that might be how they grew up.

It might be normal for them. Conflict is a normal way of life. Conflict is how they engage with people, and they don't see it as conflict. That's just normal for them.

If there's someone that you are having consistent problems with, someone that keeps snaking you, someone that keeps dropping in on you, you have to be willing to match their energy and enter some conflict with that person. Because surfing is not yoga with dolphins. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

And waves are a limited resource. And if you want to catch some set waves, you better be hungry for it and you better be willing to fight for it.

There are certain people you should not confront. There are psychopaths out there. Ease into it. Read the room. But if you are conflict avoidant, these surfers will run rings around you.

So sometimes it's better just to go and surf somewhere else. So to round off, remember, if you are being bullied in the surf, that is because you are a willing victim.

Side note—remember that my example with Laird was an extreme example because he's an extreme character and it was a one-on-one situation. At your local beach, in a crowded lineup, it's gonna be more of a slow burn over time. You have to ease your way into that. But there will be a point where you have to engage in conflict because if you are conflict avoidant, you will never connect with those dominant surfers and you'll never earn.

So for more surfing tips and information, please check out the back catalog of this podcast.

115 Handling Aggressive Surfers: Surf Coaching Tactics for Confidence, Respect & More Waves

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**114 The Surfing Copywriter: How Passion and Strategy Can Power Your Surf Business** Mar 27, 2025

What happens when a lifelong surfer ditches big-name fashion brands to carve out a niche as the go-to copywriter for the surf industry?
If you're a surf business owner juggling content, marketing, and your next session in the water, this episode is a must-listen. Discover how surfer and copywriter Lachlan Campbell turned his passion for surfing into a thriving business that helps other surf brands rise above the noise—and how you can do the same.
Learn how to align your passion with your profession and create a business that truly fits your lifestyle.
Discover the current marketing gaps in the surf industry—and how surf camps, product brands, and retreats can capitalize on them.
Get practical insights into how AI is changing the copywriting game and what it means for small surf brands on tight budgets.

Hit play now to learn how to elevate your surf brand with strategic, authentic storytelling from someone who truly speaks your language—waves and all.
https://thesurfingcopywriter.com
**Key Points**
The podcast discusses the alignment of profession with passion, focusing on business within the surf industry.
Lachlan Campbell, the surfing copywriter, shares insights on marketing gaps in the surf industry and how AI is changing the game.
Lachlan discusses the importance of managing expectations and being grateful for being in the water as a key to enjoying surfing.
The shift to Europe influenced Lachlan's preference for different types of surfboards, moving away from performance shortboards to more fun boards like twin fins.
Copywriting is defined as writing with intent and purpose to move someone from having an issue to having the solution, essentially the written form of marketing.
The surf industry is increasingly recognizing the need for more proactive marketing strategies, especially post-COVID, to stand out among growing competition.
There is potential for new surf brands to shine, especially in underserved markets or by offering unique experiences and collaborations, such as with wellness coaches.
AI is changing the game by providing assistance in content creation and idea generation, though it's advised to add personal nuance to AI-generated content.
Lachlan's ideal client is someone passionate about their business, considering more than just profit, and invested in improving people's lives through surfing.
**Outline**
**Surfing Background**
Lachlan Campbell started surfing at a very young age, possibly around seven or eight years old, and grew up on the east coast of Australia.
Lachlan moved to Portugal after meeting their spouse in Nicaragua, as a compromise location for their shared living.
Lachlan's surfing style has evolved over time, moving from performance shortboards to more fun boards like twin fins and mid-lengths.
**Surfing Advice**
Lachlan's best piece of surfing advice is to surf with no expectations and to be grateful for being in the water.
Managing expectations and focusing on the quality of the experience rather than the quantity of waves can lead to a more enjoyable session.
Lachlan suggests trying fun boards for a more relaxed and enjoyable surfing experience.
**Copywriting and Marketing in the Surf Industry**
Lachlan Campbell is a professional copywriter who specializes in the surf industry, having started in 2013 and focusing on surf businesses since 2018.
Copywriting is defined as writing with intent and purpose to move someone from having an issue to having the solution, essentially selling an idea or product using words.
The surf industry's grasp of marketing is described as limited, with many business owners relying on visual appeal and location rather than strategic marketing.
There is an increasing need for surf businesses to invest in marketing due to heightened competition post-COVID, with more emphasis on SEO, email newsletters, and paid advertising.
Smaller surf brands with limited budgets are finding opportunities to stand out by focusing on niche markets and unique offerings.
**Innovation and Trends in the Surf Industry**
There is ongoing innovation in the hard goods sector of the surf industry, with niche products like fin rental services and specialized surf accessories emerging.
Surf camps and retreats are evolving by adding wellness, mental health, and resilience coaching to their offerings, catering to a demand for more comprehensive experiences.
The integration of AI in copywriting and marketing is discussed, highlighting its role as a tool for idea generation, structure, and efficiency rather than a replacement for human creativity.
**Business Advice and Ideal Client Profile**
Lachlan offers business advice through a weekly newsletter, sharing insights from working with clients and personal musings.
The ideal client for Lachlan is someone passionate about their business, invested in its growth, and aligned with the values of improving people's lives through surfing.
Lachlan prefers working with clients on a retainer basis to build a deeper understanding of their business and contribute more effectively to its growth.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton. Today's episode is a little bit different. We're talking about business, in particular business within the surf industry. Today's guest is Lachlan Campbell, the surfing copywriter—that's thesurfingcopywriter.com—and we're going to discover how you can align your profession with your passion. We'll talk about the current marketing gaps in the surf industry and practical insights about how AI is changing the game and what it means for small surf brands on tight budgets, plus much more. And Lachlan is an experienced surfer and he weighs in with some nice practical surf tips as well before we segue into the business side of things. The next cohort of the Wave Catching Academy is live, so if you're on the waiting list, you can go ahead and book that if you are frustrated with the lack of waves that you're getting. And personally, I'm sick of all these surf coaches doing nothing but teach you how to do a better bottom turn or a top turn. Yet the hardest part in surfing is what happens between when the board is under your arm and under your feet. So if you want to learn the details about that and how to get into more waves, about how to catch more waves and how to set the start of the wave up, it's the hardest part of surfing and that's what this course is all about. I have a couple of spaces in the diary for some one-on-one online coaching as well. You can email me mike@surfmastery.com if you want to find out more about that. And now here is my conversation with Lachlan Campbell, the surfing copywriter. When did you start surfing?
**Lachlan Campbell**
I can't say I, 'cause I can't remember what my first surf session was. It was, I was younger than 10, but I know there's some photos floating around at my parents' house, of my dad pushing me onto waves in Queensland. But I'd been surfing before that, let's say like eight, seven or eight years old, like getting pushed on the waves, just the beach. Not seriously going, hey, like I wanna surf, but just like my dad surfed and stuff. So he was obviously taken to the beach when he went to the beach and I was around surfing pretty much my whole childhood. But I think I, because I even went from surfing, learning how to surf and then jumped on a bodyboard for a little bit 'cause that's what all my mates was doing. And then when we all jumped on surfboards again and graduated to the kind of like the more advanced beach in the area, we were back on surfboards. So, I don't know, since I was young, but shivers, you wouldn't, you wouldn't know it if you saw me for about how long I've been surfing. I'm still pretty, pretty steady, I would say. Whereabouts was that? It's on the east coast of Australia. I live in Portugal now, but yeah, it was, I grew up on the east coast of Australia and, like a couple of hours south of Sydney in a little dairy farming, surfing, fishing community, called Gerringong. We had two beaches there. We have one just to the south in Ulla called Seven Mile Beach, which is probably like the most beginner, longboard friendly beach that I've ever been to. I would say like it's super mellow, really gradual sandbanks that just run like kind of a hundred or so meters and yeah, great for longboarding. Can be like six foot. I've literally never seen it barrel. It's just like always this like rolling whitewash wave. So good for learning, good for longboarding. The local beach is Werri Beach. So that's, yeah, that's got a point break at one end and a nice peaky little river mouth at the other end. And yeah, that was the stomping ground. The east coast of Australia is paradise for surfers. So why move to Europe, Portugal? I met my wife actually in Nicaragua and she's from Austria. And so when we were kind of trying to find a compromise on where to live, the compromise was Portugal. And yeah, I mean, for me, Portugal is kind of the closest you get to Australia, I guess that surf lifestyle and that surf culture. And yeah, when I moved over here, I lived in Amsterdam and worked in Amsterdam for a bit over a year, and then we traveled around Europe a bit. But yeah, I don't know. I kind of just found a place in Europe. Getting the business off the ground as I moved over here helped as well. It's kind of, I don't know, like there's obviously a big learn-to-surf culture in Australia, but it's more so in, I would say, the States and Central America and Europe. Morocco, Africa as well. So yeah, it's been like a good business move to live here as well. But, uh, yeah. Short answer there is love.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. I moved to London in 2008 and discovered Ericeira on trips. Man, what a magic place that was back then, at least. I dunno what it's like now, but the waves were—
**Michael Frampton**
It's still magic.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. It's a little bit—like, I'm in the south, I'm in the Algarve, so we have like a lot of beach breaks and stuff here. We have two coastlines, which kind of makes up for the lack of kind of reef and point breaks and stuff. But, and Peniche—I mean, the whole coastline is so good. Like, I've done a few trips now, like up to Galicia, which is in northwest Spain, and back down again and just sampled Portuguese coastline, and there's waves up and down the coast. A lot of people are concentrated around Ericeira and Peniche obviously, and the Algarve too, but plenty of waves all around. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. It's a good spot to live for surfers. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. What's been your—what's your best piece of surfing advice that's helped you not only enjoy surfing but be a better surfer?
**Lachlan Campbell**
I think because I've been surfing for quite a long time now, and a lot of that progression when you're like a teenager—whether you're learning like a language or surfing—a lot of it is instinctual. So the whole technical element to surfing kind of only came to me later in life. And I'm not like technical with it at all. You know, I don't really do any coaching or anything like that. I find it interesting how people break it down, but to be honest, I'm that far gone now, I'm not even gonna try and correct some of my bad habits. But no, I think probably the biggest takeaway for me, definitely in adulthood, is how good a surf session is gonna be isn't actually determined by the waves. For me, it's expectation. It's about being grateful for just being in the water because I know—and I'm sure other surfers would know as well—the waves can be pumping, but if you are in maybe an over-frothed kind of pumped-up mood and you go out there and you're just paddling around trying to catch everything, you can come in and not get a wave or not get a good one. And I don't know, maybe just feel like a bit out of sync. Whereas if you go in some days where you're kind of expecting it to not be great, you just find like a little waist-high rip bowl or something, you can just have such a fun time just because your expectations had shifted and maybe you weren't really predetermining how the session should go. So yeah, I guess the biggest piece of surfing advice for me is just try and just get out there and maybe not think about it too much. Or I know as well, when I go out and maybe it's like pumping and I try to chase a specific type of wave, you kind of always end up being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Surfing's weird like that. It's not something you can just—I dunno, this is why pro surfing would be such a nightmare because you can't just manufacture a wave, right? I mean, wave pools, but when you're in the ocean, you can't manufacture and make something come towards you. It just happens. And I think sometimes your—yeah, without getting too woo-woo—I think sometimes your mental state can influence that a little bit. So yeah, maybe surfing with no expectations and just being grateful for being out there. I mean, if you're in the water, you're not working, so—
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's gotta be something to be grateful for, right?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Oh, I a hundred percent agree with that. The only expectation I have when I go surfing now is just to catch one wave.
**Michael Frampton**
You must be just stoked on every surf then you have.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yep. Yeah, exactly. Just catch one wave. I think if you can manage your expectations to that. It's like the other day I went surfing and the waves were—it looked like it was pumping and I was, oh, I was excited. And then I paddled out there and the current and the backwash, it just was—the waves were so hard to catch and to surf. And it's just still like, just catch one wave, just catch one wave. Just kept reminding myself. And I only got one wave and I was stoked with it. So yeah, it's a big one.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
That's a quality over quantity thing as well, right? I mean, you would've seen before, like some surfers will paddle out on a good day and just sit there and kind of wait and maybe only take like one or two good waves throughout the whole session. And yeah, some people will froth around, chase everything, can end up with nothing. So yeah, I think just to summarize that, yeah, good surfing maybe starts—or for me, a good session kind of starts before you even get in the water, which can be difficult because if you're all on a boat trip with your mates or on a surf camp or something with your partner or whatever, and you've been hyping it up for ages and then you finally get to a wave that's pumping, yeah, sometimes your expectations are met, but I think if you try and just, I don't know, just keep it a little bit level-headed, yeah, you'll end up having a good session.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. So for most of us, surfing is not a sport. It's a pastime or an art form, so—
**Lachlan Campbell**
Mm-hmm.
**Michael Frampton**
There's no need to perform or surfer, no. A shortboard or did shifting to Europe, did that change the type of surfboard you ride?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Well, sure. So, I mean, I think it's still the same in Australia, let's say there's like a lineup with 20 people out. In Australia, 18 of them will be on a—I mean, it depends where you are. In Australia, let's say Byron Bay is a bit of an outlier, but other places in Australia, 20 people out in the lineup, I'd say 18 are gonna be on like a performance shortboard. And I mean it's different where you're going in Europe too, but I'd say like on a whole, most people are on maybe more fun boards. And for me, coming to Europe, I—maybe the wave quality played a little bit of a role in that, but I realized pretty quickly, like no one gives a shit what boards you're riding here, right?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Like you can jump on whatever you want. So coming to Europe for me was coming with shortboards and then kind of transitioning out and broadening my horizons and trying some different boards. And now—if you had said this to me like 10, 15 years ago—I’d just be like, I’d laugh you out of the room. But now, for most of the year, I’m on like a twin fin or a mid-length, or, I don’t know. I guess I also lost that desire to rip a wave every time I surfed it. For me, like, definitely my definition of good surfing has changed a lot. But yeah, for me, I’m just looking to surf the wave well and just, I don’t know, make it easier for myself too, right?
I see a lot of people struggling on performance shortboards, which—even the most user-friendly performance shortboard—it takes a little bit of finesse to surf it well. And yeah, for me, maybe my own style is not great, but style is pretty important for me. It kind of comes into the equation for me for good surfing. And yeah, you kind of want a board that makes surfing with style a bit easier instead of a shortboard where you're just constantly trying to pump for speed and generate speed. So yeah, I don’t know. Definitely bigger, wider, less fins surfboards since I came to Europe.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Yeah. I’m in the same boat. If there's one piece of advice I could give my younger self, it would be, yeah, try some of those fun boards. Mate, my shortboard surfing career probably peaked when I was 15, 16, and I was on a steady downhill after that. So to be honest, the mid-length kind of revolution, these more performance twin fins, when they came along, I was like, yep, that’s me all over. Still catch plenty of waves. Easy to generate speed on, easy to paddle. Yeah. That for me is the sweet spot. Just easy.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. So now let’s segue into your work because your website, The Surfing Copywriter—how did that come about?
**Michael Frampton**
I started copywriting in 2013 but really got serious about it in 2014. That was just before I moved to Europe, and, you know, Amsterdam—started copywriting kind of professionally there and managed to pick up a few bigger name clients, but they were mainly in that, I don’t know, lifestyle, fashion sector. And it wasn’t until 2018—so I’d been doing it for four, 2019, four or five years—when I was like, why don’t I just do copywriting for surfing? Because I’ve surfed all my life. It seems so obvious now, but at the time I didn’t even think about marrying those two.
And so I actually went and had a look and just made like a list of all the surf businesses around the world—a pretty comprehensive list—and just thought, okay, is there scope for someone to come in and help with copywriting? And yeah, like on a broader sense, marketing as well. And yeah, then it was kind of 2018, 2019 where I launched it. It wasn’t like a hard launch. It kind of started with a really ugly website and no branding and then just evolved pretty quickly after that. But yeah, it kind of was just like a natural progression because there’s no way I was writing about men’s fashion for the rest of my life. Or, I mean, the beer companies—I worked with Heineken for a bit—that was okay. But yeah, like some of those other brands were just not up my alley. So yeah, having The Surfing Copywriter just—yeah, pretty simple looking back on it. But it allowed me to bring that passion for surfing, which it’s a passion. I don’t know, it’s weird to call it a passion ’cause I’ve been doing it for so long, it’s nearly just like something I’ve done all my life. So by default, I just knew so much about it and kind of merged that with my marketing and copywriting skills, and yeah, that’s how it was born. Nearly by accident, but yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What is—define what copywriting is.
**Lachlan Campbell**
So copywriting—the best way to define it is kind of put it into contrast with something. And to do that, well, let’s say content writing, which would just be putting out content for the sake of putting out content. So writing a text or a social media caption or writing a blog article, not really having any intent behind it except maybe just to finish it and put it out there. Copywriting’s like a little bit more formulaic and there’s a little bit more of a strategy around it. And on a broader sense, it’s tapping into people’s pain points and connecting with them on an emotional level and revealing your location, your product, your service to them in a way that it’s gonna meet or solve their pain points. So yeah, I guess it’s really like writing with intent and purpose to move someone from situation A to situation C—and situation A being they have an issue or there’s something in their life they want to solve, to situation C being you have the answers to solve it. So yeah, that’s what it is in a nutshell.
**Michael Frampton**
So it’s basically the written form of marketing.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Mate, I honestly, I compare it to like—you’re like an online salesman, but you’re not talking, you’re using words to sell. But I don’t know, sometimes that can sound a little bit cheesy, but you’re essentially like trying to sell an idea, a location, a product, using words.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I think marketing often has a sort of—it’s a—for some people, it’s a dirty word or has bad connotations. And that used to be my perspective, but now, you know, running my own business and learning about marketing, my definition of marketing is very different now. And I define it as: marketing is the tool that you use to describe what you do in a way so others understand what it is that you do.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Exactly. And that word *understand* is really important because whatever you are doing with marketing, it’s all about making a connection, right? And you can only make a connection when you’re able to understand what the people that you are marketing towards want. And yeah, I’d say copywriting, it’s also like a bit of a linchpin for other marketing methods because the written word these days—it’s a little bit different, like say copywriting back in the 1940s and 1950s where people would write literally like a one-page, 300- to 400-word ad. Whereas now, it’s a little bit more concise and condensed. But these days, it’s really the linchpin that all the other marketing material depends on because to release a newsletter, there’s gotta be some element of writing in that. Blog articles—there’s gotta be writing in that. Social media ads that use text—there’s writing within that. Social media captions—there’s writing within that as well. So yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
How does the surf world—the surf industry—compare to other industries in terms of their use of marketing and copywriting?
**Lachlan Campbell**
So, I would say on the whole, the grasp that most surf business owners have on marketing is quite limited. I mean, it’s hard to compare it to other industries. I’ve worked in men’s fashion and in the lifestyle industry before, and for them, it’s super competitive. But I think one thing that the surfing industry is maybe struggling with is that surfing is such a visual sport, and you can sell a lot just based on your location or how nice a product looks or the way that you present yourself. But these days—let’s say post-COVID—it’s gotten so much more competitive. And some of those bigger brands are falling to the wayside and fractured and splintered into smaller brands. And there’s so many more brands out there now that it is becoming more essential to do marketing.
Whereas I reckon even five years ago, a lot of brands could get away with just posting on Instagram where their location was and what they did. But I know for sure that the amount of investment in SEO has gone up in the last few years, and new email newsletters have gone up. Even paid advertising, which is—can be traditionally something people are a little bit wary of because you’ve got to have quite a substantial budget to do that long term—that’s increased as well. So I’d say where it was even five years ago, the surf industry—and when I say surf industry, I mean everything from apparel companies to surf tourism and hospitality, to surfboard shapers, to even poncho brands, surf equipment brands, surf hardware brands—there are so many of these now that didn’t even exist before COVID. But that just kind of accelerated everything. And then with more brands, yeah, more competition. So yeah, I’d say it’s still in its basics, but it’s just getting to that point now where I’d say surf business owners are kind of thinking, *Wow, to get ahead here, I need to do something a bit more proactive about getting the word out there and getting our name out there.*
**Michael Frampton**
Does that mean there’s a lot of opportunity for some of these new brands to become top of mind or to really start to shine?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah, there is. I think the kind of paradox there is that most of these brands are smaller brands that don’t have a massive marketing budget. I would say that a lot of them as well are run by one person or a couple of people, or a very small team. And while they do turn a profit, these are people that—they’re not looking to get rich. I don’t know. I think that’s nearly like a little bit of a new mindset amongst business owners as well, where they’re just looking for something that is a passion project, that they can make some money from, and that actually contributes something to society as well, but doesn’t suck up all their time. I mean, we’re surfers, right? Like we want to still be able to surf at the end of the day.
But there is still potential in some markets. I would say there’s places—let’s say Portugal for instance, with surf tourism and surf hospitality—like it’s a super saturated market, and there are some brands here that do a really, really good job. But there are other places, like let’s say the northern area of Morocco and yeah, even some parts of Australia where there were surf businesses there, but not a lot of people are doing marketing just because they’re getting by on the strength of name and the niche that they operate in as well. But yeah, I don’t know. Competition is good. I think it’s really good because it gets more eyes on a certain category or topic or product or location. But yeah, I’d say in some areas there is still some potential, yeah, for people to get out and make a name for themselves.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you think there are sections of the surfing industry where the customer is underserved?
**Lachlan Campbell**
I don’t know if *underserved* is the right word, but it would depend on what part of the surf industry we’re talking about as well. If we want to break it down into, let’s say, surf camps—
**Lachlan Campbell**
Some, in some countries, there’s such a broad array of different types of surf camps to meet all different needs, right? There’s the ones for budget backpackers, then there’s the more luxurious ones. But in that same area, maybe another surf business starting up isn’t going to be able to meet the same needs for that broad range of people. Again, it would have to depend on the type of businesses within the surf industry and the location as well.
**Michael Frampton**
It seems like the hard goods side of things—that’s pretty much saturated, you know? Wetsuits, boards, and stuff.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. I mean, there’s always these niche products coming out. Like there’s a company that’s just started up in Europe, I believe, somewhere, which is doing—it’s called The Fin Library, I believe—there’s a plug for these guys. And they’re doing, instead of having to buy brand new fins every time you want to change your fins, you can actually rent fins from them. There’s also new surf helmets coming onto the market that look more like the old soft rugby helmets that maybe me and you are more familiar with.
And then there’s also a guy that I saw the other day in Australia that’s doing a special plastic case just for holding your wax and your wax comb, which on some level you think, you can just chuck it somewhere, like a little Tupperware container. But when you see the product, you’re like, okay, it’s actually pretty clever. So there’s all these little niche brands that are coming out, and I don’t think their intention—for the most part—is to kind of dominate the world. They know their place within the market and I think that’s actually where the beauty lies, because instead of growing to great heights and scaling and becoming these huge brands—which, how strong are their foundations to start off with—they’re just getting deeper on their products and just knowing really well what their customer base is and how they can better meet their needs.
So, I mean, I like that. I see myself like that as well. Like I’ve had opportunities to grow before and bring on a team and stuff, and then I just thought, what’s the point? Growth for me is more about maybe doing some courses or deepening my knowledge of AI or something, just where I can better serve the people that I’m already looking after and help them get more bang for their buck, I guess.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Well, it sounds like there’s some good innovation going on in the hard goods, and it sounds like there is definitely room for growth in terms of surfing experiences—different types of and more places where surf camps are happening. Do you think there’s an increasing demand? Like, people want to go on these trips and unique trips and—
**Lachlan Campbell**
It’s evolving, right? So if we say just the standard surf experience model is: you come, you stay, you get food, you get boards, you get transport to and from the beach, and you get equipment. That’s the bread-and-butter surf experience model. And then there’s variations on that. I think one thing that’s interesting now is the rise of surf retreats and these surf experience providers collaborating with wellness coaches and mental health coaches and resilience coaches and people that—these are skills that definitely help in the water, but carry over into real life as well.
That’s becoming a big trend. And I think, maybe not so much recently, but let’s say in the last couple of years, like female-only surf retreats as well. So yeah, I would say that these surf experience providers—as they evolve—they’re maybe just adding new collaborations and new retreat experiences or surf experiences to their existing offerings. And I think that’s cool because you’re not actually changing anything to the fundamental structure of your business there. You still have the same kind of accommodation and services and packages, but you are adding something extra by way of a collaboration.
And let’s assume that they also have a following on social media or have a bit of a profile in the surf industry as well—mental health coaches within that, coming on with the surf experience providers, that’s just one example. But there’s others. There’s fitness trainers, which is the more traditional one. Wellness experts doing the ice baths and the meditation. Yoga is like the OG one, right? Being added to the surf experiences—that was one of the first ones. But yeah, it’s an evolution.
And I think we’re at the point now where again, that’s being driven by competition. And the more surf brands are out there, the more doing kind of the same thing, the more there is a requirement to be seen as doing something different, which causes you to think further afield. So yeah, it’s cool. It’s definitely changing. It’s maybe just now starting to build a bit of momentum post-pandemic, because it was a bit crazy there after the pandemic. I mean, numbers for everything were short—like retail was going crazy, surf hardware was going crazy, board sales were through the roof, bookings were through the roof. And then, yeah, last year and the year before, things were slowing down. And I think now they’re correcting themselves, I would say. So it’s gonna be an interesting year for innovation for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
If there was a surf camp that, like you described, had the standard set up, a good option for them might be to reach out to someone like me and say, “Hey look, we’ll pay you to come and spend a week with this surf group in November and you can do some coaching and some health and wellness stuff.” And then that gives them a point of difference to their existing camp as well as access to my audience, for example.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Exactly. Yeah. That’s a smart move. That’s something that’s definitely trending. I mean, you look at the guys that have been doing it for ages, like Surf Simply—they do everything. They’re doing everything in-house. They’re booked six months in advance at least.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
And they’re not cheap. I think there’s a lot of surfers with plenty of money, especially when you look at a company like Tropic Surf, for example, what they provide.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, of course.
**Lachlan Campbell**
That’s next level. So yeah, there is a definitely—you’ve got your backpackers at the bottom end, and then you’ve got Tropic Surf at the top end, and there’s obviously a huge demand. Otherwise these companies wouldn’t even exist.
**Lachlan Campbell**
No, there is. And I say these little add-ons and these extra collaborations that these brands do are not necessarily the defining factor of why people book, but I think especially for surf experience providers—so your surf schools, your surf camps, surf retreats, surf houses—you can’t ignore the face-to-face experience that people have. I think that’s… if you’ve got the money and you’ve got a bit of backing, you can build a pretty nice place, you can build a nice camp, a nice surf retreat, you can stock it with all nice boards—everyone can do that. It’s nearly like a bit of an equalizer if you have the money.
But the people—they make a huge difference as well. I would say, I know I’ve done—for a lot of, well, not just surf experience providers but for other clients as well—we do guest interviews or customer interviews and they tell us about their experience. I think the final paragraph where they sign off just about something positive about the brand or the company that they’re talking about, it generally comes back to the people. That’s what—for me, that’s the best thing about working in the surfing world. Besides the freedom, it’s the people you meet. We’re not, you know, we’re not working in like the financial world or the real estate world, which can be a bit sharky sometimes. You’re working in the surfing world, and people on a whole are pretty cool. And we all have something in common, so easy to build rapport.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Well, it sounds like your business—you’re providing more than just marketing. It sounds like you’re quite clued into the trends in surfing business as a whole. There’s plenty of surfing advice or surf business advice in your head going on.
**Lachlan Campbell**
I think that’s because when I am working with a client, I’m getting pretty deep with them and pretty invested in their own journey. And it’s always the same. These are people that are running businesses that they’re proud of. These businesses are like their babies, right? Like, they really deeply care for them. So for them, running it and being quite hands-on with it is important. But there comes a point where you just can’t give 100% in all areas, right?
So when I come on, sometimes it’s like white-label copywriting where I’m just working under a marketing manager or a marketing consultant that’s with the surf brand. But a lot of the time, my favorite arrangement is like a retainer situation where they put me on for 9, 12, longer months in order to help them out. And for me, that works way better too because we get to know each other, we build a bit of a relationship. I can see more of their business and why they started it, which makes writing about it much easier, much more natural.
So yeah, I’m not just called—I mean I’m called The Surfing Copywriter—but I would say I’m not just coming in and just “you give me what you want to write and I’ll do it for you.” I feel like I contribute to the business and to the growth. And you are just like a sounding board as well for the client sometimes, which is nice. Because I think they have so many ideas and so many things they want to do, but executing it can be a real issue. And it’s a shame because a lot of the ideas are—these are generally people not coming from a marketing background—so their ideas are actually innovative and special and, yeah, I would even say some of them are nearly even quirky. But it’s cool because they’re coming at it with originality, and for me, that kind of makes my job easier for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Now you mentioned AI. How’s that changing the game?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Mate, absolute game changer. For me, it’s like having your own personal secretary, right? Having someone there, like a little personal assistant that you can bounce ideas off, that can help with structures and outlines and frameworks. I use it for writing articles when I have a little bit of a mental block. I still feel like—if you ask AI to write you an article on surfing, it’s gonna come out like an intern that just learned to surf six months ago wrote it. Because it’s still a niche topic. It’s not so great at pulling contest results, specific events in the surfing world—everything’s a little bit generalized. It’s going to get better at that for sure.
But it’s nearly like just, yeah, having another person working for you. So the end result for clients—it just makes the result for them so much better because I’m able to free up time that I would’ve otherwise spent maybe writing or working on an outline or something to work on something else for them, to maybe refine it even further. So yeah, mate, I love it. Bring it on.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, bring it on. Is that a mistake that you see—business owners that are trying to do it all themselves, who are relying on AI to write an article? Is that a mistake that's happening?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Well, it depends. Like, at a certain point—when you're just starting out, right? Say you've just started a brand and you are wearing so many hats, and you know you've gotta do marketing and you know you've gotta get some content out and you want to do some blog articles—if you have to use AI in that situation to help you, yeah, use it for sure. But just maybe try and weave a little bit of your own personality or a little bit of nuance into it because I can spot—I think most people can spot—an AI-written article, especially on surfing, very quickly.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
So yeah, I understand. For some business owners, it's important, but if you have the budget to pay someone to do it for you—because at the end of the day, it still takes time. Let’s just take an article, for example. You’ve gotta research, you’ve gotta write the outline, you’ve gotta actually create the content, you’ve gotta proofread it, you’ve gotta do the linking, you’ve gotta source images, you’ve gotta put it into the backend system, you’ve gotta either schedule it, publish it, you’ve gotta play around with all the stuff within the backend system—so the AI can take care of one part of that, but there’s still a whole process around it.
So no, for sure—for the early business owner that’s just started out—it’s probably a godsend. But I think if you are a little bit more advanced, you can invest the time into having someone do it properly.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Do you use it as well, like—we’re using it right now for note taking for that?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. It’s awesome. I used to hate taking notes for phone calls.
**Michael Frampton**
I use it for, like you said, to bounce ideas off. For outlines of stuff. And I think just getting better at the prompts you use. Like, “Hey, can you edit this for grammar, punctuation—”
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
“And clarity, keeping all original concepts and words as they are, please.”
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Rather than just say, “Edit this,” because then it can just change the whole thing sometimes.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Of course.
**Michael Frampton**
So yeah, the prompts that you give it, that’s a—it’s a learning curve.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah, I think you don’t have to—you just have to be specific about what you want from it. And actually tell it that. I mean, I use it a lot. I actually—I don’t know if you do this as well—do you ever write “please” as well when you ask it to do something?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
I don’t know. It’s like weird. It still—I don’t know, it feels sometimes a little bit like foreign, just typing in the commands and stuff. But yeah, no, for that, it’s perfect. Because there’s still—I mean I know there’s like a lot of surfing is obviously multicultural and there’s people that maybe speak Spanish as a first language. They’re writing or doing something for an English client or an English-speaking client that markets to an English demographic. And for that, they can write something in kind of Spanglish and then just ask AI to clean it up, and, you know, so super helpful there for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
I wonder if like, if you do say “please,” would it write with a more sort of… polite tone?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think it picks up on your style over time.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe I’m just—maybe I’m just strange about it. Maybe I’m just being overly polite to it. Maybe I’m worried about the AI overlords coming and taking over the world in a hundred years, and maybe they spare me if I’m polite now.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, yeah, yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
No, I also use the voice—you can literally talk to it now.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
It’s pretty—
**Michael Frampton**
How’s it go with the Kiwi accent?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Oh, I definitely have to sound my words—speak a little slower and—
**Michael Frampton**
Enunciate a bit better?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it’s pretty amazing.
**Michael Frampton**
That’s cool. Yeah, it’s really fun.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And even for—in the kitchen these days with ingredients and recipes. Just being able to punch in, “Hey, I want to make a chicken curry, but I only have these ingredients. How can I substitute?” and—
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Lachlan Campbell**
I don’t know if my cooking has improved, but it’s definitely made it a bit easier.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, it’s interesting, technology.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah. Bloody oath.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Alright, so where can people go to find out more about you and what you do?
**Lachlan Campbell**
My website, which is www.thesurfingcopywriter.com. Instagram at @thesurfingcopywriter. This podcast is gonna be a good one. I guess I’ve got another podcast there with someone else that people can listen to. And there’s a few articles and interviews online. And the good thing about having a name like The Surfing Copywriter—great for the SEO. So if you just type in “surfing” and “copywriting,” I think you’ll get some hits on me too. But yeah, on my website too, you can sign up to my newsletter and I’m doing a weekly newsletter, which is—I don’t know, maybe more letter than news. It’s a little bit more personal, from the desk kind of dispatch. But yeah, you can find me there and yeah, find me in the water as well.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, okay. And so is there some business advice for people in the surf industry in that newsletter?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Yeah, there is. Every week it’s different. Sometimes it’s just kind of stuff that I’ve learned from working with clients. Sometimes it’s just musings. Sometimes it’s just complete and utter garbage, but there’s something there every week. Take it how you want. I think you’re always gonna get something out of it, for sure. And obviously some of those newsletters, they’re backed off my blog articles too. Like I’ve been writing blog articles now for The Surfing Copywriter for, I dunno, six or seven years or something. So there’s a lot of content there you can go back through and check out. Ultimately, if anyone wants to chat, just get in touch and we’ll see what we can do.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, well I’ll have links to all of that stuff in the show notes. What does your ideal client look like?
**Lachlan Campbell**
Oh mate. Maybe one that pays on time. No—someone that’s passionate about what they’re doing. Someone that is maybe considering more than just the profit side of things. I mean, it’s tricky because I’ve worked with startups before and they’re always people with a real vision and a dream, but they don’t necessarily have the budget. And so sometimes I have to weigh my own schedule, my current clients, with what they want to achieve on the marginal budget that they have. But it’s honestly just someone that’s really passionate about what they’re doing, that’s invested in the company. They’re not running a business from, you know, a non-surf endemic area and they don’t really have an active role in it. I want to know that they’re kind of on board and kind of, I guess, a reflection of how I run my business, where it’s a little bit more personal. It’s not a production line. We’re actually doing things to improve people’s lives and not forgetting the bigger picture—that surfing is an awesome pastime, it’s an awesome lifestyle, and whatever content we put out, we’re connecting people to that. And maybe even people that never even knew surfing existed, which is kind of cool to think about. So yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Oh, definitely. Well, I think the definition of a business is—it helps you help people. And a surfing business helps surfers. So if you’re a surfing business owner and you want to help more surfers, it’s a pretty good goal. And Lachlan can help you do that. Links to everything him in the show notes. Thank you for your time, man. Appreciate it.
**Lachlan Campbell**
Thanks, Mike. Cheers, mate.

114 The Surfing Copywriter: How Passion and Strategy Can Power Your Surf Business
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**113 How To Surf Bigger Waves + A Guide To Surfing Big Waves** Mar 27, 2025

Are you drawn to bigger waves but unsure how to prepare for them—physically, mentally, and emotionally?
In this solo episode, host Michael Frampton takes you behind the scenes of his first big wave experience—a 4.5-meter swell at an outer reef—and breaks down exactly what it took to be ready. If you’ve ever fantasized about chasing bigger sets but fear the consequences, this episode offers a realistic, no-BS look at the process.
Learn the step-by-step training that prepared Michael to survive and thrive in serious surf conditions.
Discover the tools, breathwork, and physical prep that separate survivors from statistics.
Get a raw, firsthand story of what it feels like to be caught in a rogue triple overhead clean-up set—and paddle back out.
Hit play now to learn what it *really* takes to surf big waves safely and confidently, whether it’s a double-overhead local break or an outer reef monster.
**Key Points**
Today's episode focuses on how to surf bigger waves, including big waves, with host Michael Frampton sharing his personal experience and steps taken to surf a four and a half meter swell at an outer reef.
Michael Frampton recounts his journey from a self-taught surfer in New Zealand to surfing big waves on the east coast of Australia, guided by his surf coach and mentor.
After six months of preparation, Michael Frampton received a text confirming he was ready to surf the outer reef, detailing the challenges faced during a massive rogue set of waves.
Michael Frampton describes the intense experience of being caught in massive triple overhead waves, emphasizing the physical and mental challenges of surfing such conditions.
Despite the difficulties, Michael Frampton managed to recover and paddle out, gaining a new appreciation for those who regularly surf big waves.
Step one in Michael Frampton's preparation involved acquiring a big wave gun and familiarizing himself with the board in various conditions.
Michael Frampton attended a breath hold course run by Nam Baldwin, focusing on underwater preparation and stress management techniques for big wave surfing.
Comprehensive strength training, gym work, and consistent surfing were integral parts of Michael Frampton's six-month preparation for big wave surfing.
Understanding the surf break, including diving to explore the underwater terrain, was a crucial step in Michael Frampton's preparation.
Michael Frampton emphasizes the importance of knowing one's limits, being patient, and trusting instincts when preparing to surf bigger waves.
**Outline**
**Introduction to the Episode**
The episode focuses on how to surf bigger waves, specifically big waves.
Michael Frampton, the host, shares personal experiences and insights on surfing big waves.
The episode aims to help passionate surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, grace, and gain confidence in the water.
**Personal Experience with Big Wave Surfing**
Michael Frampton recounts a personal experience of surfing a four and a half meter swell at an outer reef on the east coast of Australia.
The experience involved a clean-up set with massive triple overhead waves.
Michael describes the challenges faced, including being dragged underwater and the physical impact of landing at high speed.
**Steps to Prepare for Surfing Bigger Waves**
Step one involves getting a big wave gun, the right equipment for the types of waves to be surfed.
Step two is attending a breath hold course run by Nam Baldwin, focusing on underwater prep and breathing techniques for managing anxiety and stress.
Six months of breath hold training and nervous system management training were part of the preparation.
Strength training, gym work, and regular surfing were essential to maintain fitness and agility.
Understanding the surf break itself is crucial, including diving to see what's under the break and discussing with experienced surfers.
Patience and knowing one's limits are emphasized, with a rule of thumb being if one is not comfortable swimming the conditions, they should not surf.
**Resources for Further Learning**
For more details on the topics discussed, visit surfmastery.com and check out the Wave Catching Academy.
Free PDFs, blog posts, and a back catalogue of the Surf Mastery podcast are available for additional information.
**Transcription**
Today's episode is all about how to surf bigger waves—even big waves. Uh, welcome back or welcome to the *Surf Mastery Podcast*, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and in today's episode, you're gonna learn all about how to surf bigger waves.
Let me tell you about how I recovered from a cleanup set in a four-and-a-half meter swell at an outer reef. You know, ever since I started surfing, I've always been drawn to bigger waves, but it was never really a reality, sort of growing up as a self-taught surfer in the part of New Zealand where I was.
But then, of course, I found myself living on the East Coast of Australia, and there was an outer reef that I'd seen break, and a friend of mine—my surf coach, my mentor—regularly did, and I decided I wanted to surf it. So he thankfully guided me through the process of preparing for that.
And I remember—gosh—after six months of prep, leading up to these winter swells coming through, I got the text saying, "You're ready. It's on. See you out there." And I managed to get through the shore break, and just as I was getting to the takeoff zone, to the lineup, a massive rogue set came through.
You know, the horizon started to go dark, everyone scrambled and paddled, and about five massive triple-overhead waves came through. Thankfully, they broke a bit further out than us, 'cause I can't imagine getting a lip of one of those on the head. But these huge—I just remember—just massive walls of white water just steamrolling through, dragging everyone hundreds of meters in, underwater for a long time, just being ripped apart. When waves are that big, literally the water is trying to rip your limbs off.
But I managed to come up and recover from that and paddle out the back, do some breathing, regain some calmness. And I remember the first wave I paddled into—I under-paddled a little bit, got caught up in the lip, it threw me three-quarters of the way down the face. Landed. Felt like concrete when you're landing at that speed.
Instant saltwater enema through the wetsuit—never clenched so hard in my life. Managed to recover from that as well, paddled back out, and then got three of the biggest waves I'd ever surfed in my life. And what an experience. Gosh. And a new appreciation was gained for those that regularly surf waves like that—and of course, a lot bigger.
So let me take you through the steps that led me to that day.
First of all, I was a pretty experienced surfer. I'd regularly surfed, you know, double-overhead waves, so I wasn't a stranger to decent-sized waves. And I had a mentor who guided me through it. These are the steps that I took.
So, step number one was to get a big wave gun. You need the right equipment for the types of waves that you're going to surf. And then I surfed that board a lot—in all conditions: small waves, onshore waves, all conditions. Just really got familiar with that piece of equipment. So that was step one.
Step two, I went to a breath-hold course. It was run by Nam Baldwin, and that was—we covered two things. There was underwater prep for surfing big waves specifically, but also breathing techniques for managing your anxiety and managing your stress levels. And then got to practice those learnings with a group. So there were six months of breath-hold training and nervous system management training that went into the preparation for that day.
There was a lot of strength training, a lot of gym work, keeping strong, fit, agile—as well as a lot of surfing. So I was very surf-fit, paddle-fit.
Step number four was understanding the surf break itself. It wasn’t the kind of break that broke in small waves, but there were a few swells where it kind of broke a little bit, so I got to surf it. I also did some diving—got some fins and a mask—and went out there and, you know, looked underneath. See what's under there. So really understanding the break was another important step.
There was a lot of preparation and planning. There was a lot of discussion with surfers that had surfed that break. Like, where did they paddle out? What do they do if their leash breaks? And of course, I understood my limits. I wasn't doing this alone.
So, be patient. You know, surfing is a long game, and preparing to surf bigger waves doesn't necessarily mean that you have to surf the next time that it's big. Trust your instincts. Know your limits.
A good rule of thumb here is: if you're not comfortable swimming the conditions, definitely don't surf. Even brand new leg ropes can break.
If you want to learn more about some of the details about what I talked about in today's episode and others, go to **surfmastery.com** and check out the *Wave Catching Academy*, where we go into a lot of details about all this stuff, plus a lot more.
There are also free PDFs available at **surfmastery.com**, as well as blog posts. And of course, there is a back catalog of the *Surf Mastery Podcast* full of interviews and tips.
Please share this episode with a friend if you enjoyed it, and give us a rating and a review—it would be great.
Until next time, keep surfing.

113 How To Surf Bigger Waves + A Guide To Surfing Big Waves
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

112 Mastering the Hardest Part of Surfing: Surf More Waves with Confidence Mar 27, 2025

Struggling to catch more waves and improve your takeoff? The hardest part of surfing isn’t turning or carving—it’s everything that happens before you even stand up. But what if you could master that crucial phase?

Most self-taught surfers hit a frustrating plateau because they don’t fully understand wave reading, efficient paddling, or seamless pop-ups. Without these foundational skills, catching waves feels like a battle. This episode breaks down the real reasons behind your struggles and provides actionable fixes to transform your surfing experience.

Learn how to develop an obsession with wave reading so you can predict and position yourself perfectly.
Discover the key to efficient paddling and why a strong sprint paddle makes all the difference.
Shift your mindset to see surfing as starting from the paddle-in, making your takeoffs smoother and more powerful.

Listen now to gain the skills and knowledge to finally catch more waves with ease and confidence!

Key Points

The hardest part of surfing is getting to the right position on the wave with speed, which involves reading the wave, positioning, sprint paddling, and a well-timed pop-up.
Surfing mastery requires understanding that the process starts from the moment you paddle for the wave, not just when you pop up.
The solution to improving surfing is to become fascinated and obsessed with watching and predicting waves, even when not actively surfing.
Inefficient and weak paddling is a major mistake; improving paddling technique and strength is crucial for better surfing performance.
Surfing should be viewed as a continuous process from paddling to surfing, requiring a strong and agile pop-up to maintain stability and control.
Dry land training with surf-specific exercises is essential for improving the strength, mobility, and agility needed for a seamless pop-up.
The Wave Catching Academy offers a four-week course designed to help self-taught surfers understand and improve their surfing techniques.

Outline

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast

The host, Michael Frampton, welcomes listeners to the Surf Mastery podcast, aimed at helping surfers catch more waves, surf with speed, style, and grace, and gain confidence in the water.
Michael emphasizes that the hardest part of surfing is getting to the right spot on the wave with speed, which involves reading the waves, positioning, paddling, and a well-timed takeoff or pop-up.

Common Misconceptions About Improving Surfing Skills

Michael points out that listening to ex-pros talk about techniques or watching YouTube videos on surfing equipment will not help surfers catch more waves.
The focus should be on practical, in-water experience and understanding the dynamics of wave reading and positioning.

The Importance of Fascination in Wave Reading

Michael suggests that surfers should become fascinated and obsessed with watching waves to improve their ability to predict and read them.
When waiting for a wave, surfers should practice predicting where the wave will break and observe other surfers to guess if they are positioning themselves correctly.

Improving Paddling Technique

Michael identifies inefficient and weak paddling as a common mistake among surfers, advising listeners to improve their sprint paddle technique.
He recommends listening to episode 12 with Rob Case for insights into efficient movement and paddling, and suggests visiting Rob's YouTube channel for visual demonstrations.

The Attitude of Integration in Surfing

Michael discusses the mistake of separating paddling for the wave from surfing the wave, advocating for an integrated approach where surfing starts with the paddle.
This perspective helps surfers get up to speed faster and be more adaptable if they mistime the pop-up, emphasizing the need for a strong and agile pop-up.

Dry Land Training for Surfers

Michael highlights the importance of dry land training to improve strength, mobility, and agility for a seamless pop-up.
He mentions a free PDF on his website with the five best exercises for surfers and encourages serious surfers to join the Wave Catching Academy for more detailed tips and training.

Wave Catching Academy

Michael introduces the Wave Catching Academy, a four-week course designed to help average self-taught surfers understand surfing better, catch more waves, and surf faster.
The course focuses on improving the process from when the surfboard is under the arm to when it is under the feet, with multiple links and details available for enrollment.

Transcription

Now, if you could click your fingers and magically appear standing on your surfboard with your feet in the right spot, and on the right part of the wave with speed, then surfing from that moment on is actually pretty easy. It's getting to that point that is the hardest part of surfing. It's reading the waves, it's positioning, it's the sprint paddles to get up to speed, and a well-timed takeoff or pop-up.

That's the hardest part of surfing. All of those things. Everything from when your surfboard is under your arm to when the surfboard is under your feet. That is the hardest part of surfing. That's why it takes so long to master. That's why you are feeling frustrated. Listening to some ex-pro talk you through the technique of a will not help you catch more waves.

Watching a YouTube infographic video on the difference between fins and rails by some faux British surf guru will not help you catch more waves. So in this episode, we're going to break down some of these real problems and give you some fixes. The first one being your lack of ability to predict and read the wave.

Fascination is the fix here. Now, the age-old answer of how to get better at surfing is: surf more. Spend more time in the water. Now, that remains especially true here, because you have to watch and observe lots of waves. In order to make the most of your time in the water, when you're doing that, become fascinated and obsessed with watching.

You have to practice predicting where the wave is going to break. So when you're sitting out the back, waiting your turn, or you're waiting for a set, be fascinated with reading the water and predicting where each wave will break. There's a wave coming in every 10 to 15 seconds, so watch. Mind surf the wave.

If you see another surfer positioning themselves to catch a wave and attempting to catch the wave, guess whether you think they're doing it right. Should they have been deeper? Will they catch the wave? What could they have done better? If you were them, what would you have done? The time that we spend in the water not surfing is the bulk of our surfing experience.

Now, that doesn't mean we can't get better at surfing during those times. So this is one way to do it. The second biggest mistake that surfers make here is inefficient and weak paddling. Your paddling technique probably sucks, and you don't have a strong sprint paddle. I'd say the majority of surfers fit into this category.

We've all seen the surfer that paddles past us or the good surfer that just glides into the waves. That's because they move through the water with efficiency and they have a good, strong paddling stroke—especially the sprint paddle. The fix here is: just go and listen to Episode 12 with Rob Case, where he talks through the science of what efficient movement and paddling is.

And of course, you can go to Rob's YouTube channel and get some visuals on that. The third biggest mistake when it comes to catching waves is having the attitude of separation. A lot of surfers think that there is a separation between paddling for the wave and surfing the wave. The fix for this—and this is the one perspective that helped my surfing more than anything else—is that surfing starts when you paddle for the wave.

So instead of paddling into the wave, paddle down the wave or across the wave as if you're already surfing. This attitude and perspective will help you get up to speed faster, and will also help you be more adaptable if you mistime the pop-up itself. Because if you miss the ideal window to pop up, it doesn't matter, because you're already surfing.

In order to do that, you need to have a very strong and agile pop-up as well. Your ability to keep the surfboard nice and stable and planing through the water without any drastic changes of direction is key here. So having enough strength and mobility to be able to do that—to go from having your weight in that prone position, weight on your chest, to weight on your hands and transferring that weight from your hands to your feet seamlessly without losing any feel or control of the surfboard—is the only way to improve this.

And the only way to get better at that is dry land training. Surf-specific dry land training. Exercises to improve the strength, mobility, and agility of the pop-up. There is a free PDF on my website called The 5 Best Exercises for Surfers. That will get you started. And if you're really serious about taking your surfing to the next level, and you're sick and tired of the shame and frustration of not having understood surfing yet, and you want to overcome your current plateau as a self-taught surfer, then join the next cohort of the Wave Catching Academy, where we go into details on these tips, plus a whole lot more.

112: Mastering the Hardest Part of Surfing: Surf More Waves with Confidence

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**111 Surfing, Philosophy & the Search for Meaning: Longevity & Adventure with Aaron James** Mar 13, 2025

Has surfing started to feel more like a grind than a joy? What if the answer isn’t better waves or sharper turns—but a new philosophy?
In this powerful and thought-provoking conversation, philosopher and lifelong surfer Aaron James shares why he abandoned performance-based surfing in favor of *adventure surfing*—and how that shift brought back the joy, meaning, and connection he thought he’d lost in the lineup. If you've ever questioned what surfing *means* to you, this is your moment to rethink it all.
Discover how redefining your surfing goals can reignite your stoke and deepen your relationship with the ocean.
Learn how surfing mirrors our search for meaning, longevity, and even spirituality.
Explore how the concept of *attunement*—not perfection—can transform both your surfing and your life.
Hit play now to hear how reframing your surfing mindset could be the most meaningful wave you ever catch.
https://learn.surfmastery.com/the-philosophy-of-surfing & www.surfmastery.com
Aarons' books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Aaron-James/author/B007CL9J5M?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true
Other books mentioned:
The Mature Mind - Gene D. Cohen
The Mindful Body - Ellen Langer
**Key Points**
Aaron James discusses the concept of 'adventure surfing,' a redefinition of his approach to surfing focusing on connection and enjoyment rather than performance and competition.
Michael Frampton introduces the Surf Mastery Podcast and the conversation with Aaron James, focusing on how surfing shapes one's life, philosophy, and longevity.
Aaron James shares his shift in surfing philosophy from seeking perfection and performance to embracing adventure surfing, emphasizing joy and connection over competition.
Aaron James explains how philosophical thinking helped him redefine his relationship with surfing, allowing him to enjoy it in new ways without the pressure of performance standards.
Aaron James discusses the concept of longevity and how philosophical ideas about mortality and the pursuit of a longer life can be connected to the practice of surfing.
Aaron James proposes that the meaning of life is found in the stories we tell about our experiences, which allow us to find reconciliation and joy in living.
Aaron James explains how surfing satisfies both our animalistic nature and our higher, spiritual selves, connecting us to the sublime and the larger universe.
Aaron James discusses the social aspect of surfing and how it contributes to longevity and well-being, emphasizing the value of community and serendipitous interactions.
Aaron James explores the concept of God and spirituality in relation to surfing, suggesting that surfing can be a form of attunement to the divine or the natural world.
Aaron James argues that surfing is not inherently selfish but can be a self-transcending activity that enhances one's appreciation for life and connection with others.
**Outline**
**Surfing Philosophy and Attunement**
Aaron James discusses the concept of attunement in surfing, emphasizing the importance of constantly automating certain skills while paying attention to new challenges.
Aaron redefines their approach to surfing as 'adventure surfing,' focusing on connection, being in the ocean, and surfing in beautiful, less crowded places with tricky waves.
Michael Frampton, the host, introduces the Surf Mastery Podcast, which aims to help surfers improve their performance and longevity in the sport.
Aaron shares their personal journey from pursuing perfection and performance in surfing to embracing adventure surfing.
Aaron explains how their background in philosophy helped them reframe their relationship with surfing, allowing them to enjoy the sport in a new way.
**Longevity and Surfing**
Aaron and Michael discuss the concept of longevity in relation to surfing, exploring how the sport can contribute to a longer and healthier life.
They mention the importance of staying active, moving through space, and adapting to the environment as key aspects of living well and potentially extending lifespan.
Aaron shares their interest in longevity biohacking and the philosophical ideas behind it, drawing parallels between the principles of longevity and the joy of surfing.
They emphasize the value of finding joy and meaning in the present moment, rather than solely focusing on the promise of a longer life.
**Meaning of Life and Surfing**
Aaron provides a philosophical perspective on the meaning of life, suggesting that it lies in the stories we tell about our experiences and how they reconcile us to being alive.
They draw a connection between the meaning of life and the act of surfing, highlighting the attunement and skillful activity involved in the sport.
Aaron explains how surfing satisfies both the animalistic need to move and attune with nature, as well as the human desire for music, dance, and connection with larger things.
They discuss the social aspect of surfing and how it contributes to a sense of community, serendipity, and the feeling of belonging.
**God and Surfing**
Aaron shares their definition of God, drawing from Spinoza's perspective that God and nature are one and the same.
They suggest that through skillful activities like surfing, individuals can gradually get closer to nature and, therefore, closer to God.
Aaron emphasizes that surfing is not purely selfish but rather an attunement to larger things, including the natural world and the ocean.
They discuss the idea of self-transcendence in surfing, where the value of the activity goes beyond personal performance and connects individuals to the excellence of the waves and the craft of surfing.
**Selfishness and Surfing**
Aaron challenges the notion that surfing is purely selfish, arguing that it involves attuning to the natural world and experiencing the waves in a harmonious way.
They differentiate between innocent self-love and status consciousness, suggesting that the latter is the root of many social ills and vices.
Aaron discusses the dynamics of the surfing lineup, where surfers may compete for waves and status, leading to conflicts and dominance relations.
They emphasize that true enjoyment of surfing comes from valuing the activity for its own sake and finding joy in others' success, rather than solely focusing on personal gain or status.
**Transcription**
**Aaron James**
Think about it in terms of attunement. It's a skillful activity, and what you're going for is attunement with the wave. But the way we do that is by constantly automating certain skills and paying attention to new challenges. And that's the way we stay attuned and develop our skillful practice. And one version of it is you're trying to be the best surfer you can be, but it doesn't have to be that at all. It can just be switching up challenges and trying different things. So I decided to redefine a different way of surfing, which has its own standards. I just worked that out for myself. And I call that adventure surfing. And the goals there are just connect, just be out in the water, be in the ocean, surf beautiful places with light crowds and interesting, tricky, difficult waves.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, grace, and to have wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is a special one. You just heard a couple of quotes from it. That's Aaron James, or I should say Professor Aaron James. He is a professor of philosophy. He is an author. I will have links to his Amazon, *Surfing with Sartre*, among others. Aaron is a very good surfer and he spent decades chasing perfection in the water, from Lower Trestles to Indonesian surf trips. But in recent years, his relationship to surfing, just like mine, shifted quite a lot. He is no longer trying to find the perfect wave or seeking performance, but instead embraces what he calls adventure surfing, which is a mindset that values connection and attunement over competition or dominance and putting pure stoke before social status. And in this conversation we explore how surfing shapes our lives, our philosophy and even our longevity. We talk about one's surfing philosophy and how it's the foundation of your surfing experience in the water and even how it affects your performance. Is the surfing that you do coming from you, or is it influenced by the surfing industry and the surf media? Are you a product of surfing as a sport, or are you a creative surfer seeing surfing as an art form? We take a deeper dive into this and we talk about why surfing is so meaningful. We talk about how surfing not only satisfies our animalistic, primal nature, the need to move through and attune to the environment, but to our higher selves, our spiritual selves and our desire to connect to something bigger than ourselves. We liken surfing to music and dance. We discuss the meaning of life and of course the meaning of surfing. We touch on the concept of God and how surfing can bring you closer to God, why surfing is not a pointless activity or selfish pursuit, but can actually be selfless and an expression of something deeply human and transcendent. We dive into the dynamics of the lineup, the democracy of—or the lack of—in surfing, the psychology of dominant surfers, and how lineup hierarchy shapes our experience in the water. And finally we talk about learning to love surfing simply for the love of surfing and finding your own unique way of enjoying the waves without it being dictated by internal or external pressures and expectations. So if you've ever experienced shame and frustration with surfing, if you've questioned your relationship to surfing, if you've wondered whether you're chasing the right goals in the water, or you just love thinking about surfing in a deep way, this episode is for you. This episode will definitely get you thinking, and I have created this mini eBook as a workbook to help guide you through developing your own personal surfing philosophy, and it's available on my website, surfmastery.com. Not only is it a great companion with practical exercises to go alongside this episode, but it's a great way to support this show itself because it's only the price of a cup of coffee. So go to surfmastery.com and check that out. Another way to support the show is to share this episode with a friend. And without further ado... I give you my conversation with philosophy professor Aaron James. Hey, how are you?
**Aaron James**
Yeah, pretty good, thanks for accommodating the time change. I had to get the tide window on my spot. Oh, really narrow tide window. What's your podcast about? What's the idea?
**Michael Frampton**
The Surf Mastery Podcast, it's inspiration and education for better surfing performance and longevity. That's the tagline. Oh, wow. Okay. Wow. I'm super into longevity stuff. I started the show like 10 years ago where I was really interested in shortboarding and learning how to do a better turn and get barreled. And since then life is... that was when I was living in Australia. I lived—we spent four years surfing Little Doom, living in Malibu as well. Oh, okay. Got three kids now, been through a lot, lost a wife, lost a job back in New Zealand. So surfing has—the show's become quite eclectic and it's more about what's your relationship with surfing, and how does surfing affect your life, and how does it make it better or worse, and that sort of stuff. Yeah.
**Aaron James**
My relationship to it has changed in the last year or so.
**Michael Frampton**
Tell me about that.
**Aaron James**
Oh yeah, sure. So I spent, from my teens on—so now I'm 53—so for over 30 years, I was doing what I call perfection and looking for perfect waves. And performance. Perfection and performance, trying to perform in perfect, as good waves as I can get, right? So, became a good surfer, surf traveled my whole life, went to all the hot, the highest points. Started going to Indo a month every year, but other good world-class spots. I'm an academic, a professor, so we have our calendar. We have a lot of free time, totally free and flexible time. So, it totally accommodates surf travel easily. So, I've done that the whole, since my twenties. Since I was in grad school, even college. But then I just got to—and then at home, the way to finesse living in Southern California was, as you know, the crowds. Look at the good wave, too crowded. Surfrider Malibu is a nightmare. I made Lower Trestles my home, really got it wired. I know everybody, and I just sort of grasped the nettle and just learned to get good waves at a lot of good waves, the most crowded. I've learned. So I did that for 20 years, and then I just got burnt out, totally burnt out finally on it after about 20 years of doing that. And then I was going for over a decade to Nias for a month at a time. I throw in some Mentawais and Bali also, but I got burnt out on surfing Lagundri Bay. But I really was really dedicated for a decade.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I've seen footage of you absolutely ripping out there. I've seen the footage.
**Aaron James**
Oh, cool. Thanks. Yeah. So I did that and I just cut—I mean, it was just... it's partly like, it's harder to keep up the level of performance. You're always, you're kind of sliding and then you're trying to make up the deficit, and the downward trend is—the trend is down, but you're trying to keep the slope as gentle as possible. And that was like a goal. It was fine. I did that for, still did that for a decade. And I'm still proud of myself and still had sessions that are really the peak of my life and surfing career. But I just got so over the crowd, the usual crowd dynamics and stuff. You know, originally inspired a book—that's called *Assholes*. I have a theory about assholes inspired by surfers, probably. And some of my colleagues in academia and surfers, but like surfers did it really well. And every surfer knows the asshole in the lineup really well. So I just got totally burned out on the whole thing. I just didn't feel like surfing Lowers. I didn't care about surfing Lagundri Bay. It's fine to go into the Mentawais, like less crowded zones or whatever. But the thing that I—and it took me a little while there to sort of figure out—to redefine. I feel like you don't discover the fountain of youth—this is a longevity point—you don't discover the fountain of youth and just decide to just not go drink from it anymore. You know what I mean? So it's like all these sort of incredible benefits from surfing—this effortless fitness and health and great attitude towards life comes, all this existential balm and all these good things just come if you just stick with surf, if you just surf. Or live your life around it. So it's pretty stupid to just not surf. So it was like, that was... and it had never been thinkable. I didn't ever live that way. So I—but I didn't know how to renegotiate my relationship to it. Trying to figure out how to do that. But it helped, I sort of redefined. So for the first time in my life, I rethought of what I was doing before was... it's not just any kind of surfing. It's not just surfing. It's specific surfing, specific goals—getting the best waves you can and surfing as well as possible. It's perfection, performing. That was the abiding goal. And I decided there's lots of different kinds of surfing and I can do a different kind of surfing, which has different goals and different standards of success. So if I do a different kind of surfing, I'm not doing a shitty job of surfing. I'm just not doing perfection and performance. I'm not doing that. There's a different game, right? It's not—if you change the game, you're not doing bad moves in the other game, or change the dance, you're not doing bad moves in a different dance. You're just doing a different dance, right? Or different game. So I decided to redefine a different way of surfing, which has its own standards. And I just worked that out for myself. And then I call that adventure surfing. And the goals there are to connect, just be out in the water, be in the ocean, surf beautiful places with light crowds and interesting, tricky, difficult waves. Like where there's a little bit of a challenge, just something interesting about it. You're out surfing, but there's like a weird reef that doesn't break that often, barely surfs, but you're the only one on it, but you're getting it wired, you know, kind of thing. The regular spot I surf now at Crystal Cove, I used to walk my dog there every day before I went to Lowers, and I'd call it the shit wave because I was like, what's that? Because I just—just shows my attitude towards it. Now I surf the shit wave all the time. I don't call it the shit wave anymore. But it has a fun—it's a reef with a fun bowl. So I've got this bowl really wired. So now, and it's kind of—and I like the wonkiness of it. And it can be fun. And I'm not trying to—I don't get the same open face and do the same open face turns like you can do at Lowers on every wave, but that's not the goal, right? So the goal is just to get the interesting waves, to just try out new things, be on it when the window's on. And then it's never that crowded. It's totally beautiful place. It's incredibly—and that's the closest place to my house anyway. So it's super easy. And then it turns out at Crystal Cove, in winter, and summer too, there's some spots that get really, really good occasionally. And a lot of people who don't check it all the time don't score it. So now I get those spots when they're on. And so I've kind of recreated this different way of surfing, but it's... like my friends who know me, knowing how I lived and how I surf, they kind of look at it like, "What? You surf out there? Oh, just a little left? Just that left?" They go over and over. They don't get it. But I'm like, it's a different thing. Anyway, so now I brought back the sort of childlike teenage joy of surfing back. I was just so stoked to surf again. And there's less sort of chase about it. I mean, as usual, I have to wait and stuff for waves, but there's less like... the thing that kind of becomes more palpable as you're chasing waves is you're waiting ever longer, it's harder and harder to score, your standards go up because you surf a lot of perfect waves. And then it's not just any good waves, it's—these are the most perfect, perfect waves you've ever... and then you see all the times the waves—now you see all the waves you're not surfing all the time. So no matter how styled out you are as a traveling pro, you're missing waves somewhere. So there's this whole kind of cruel... it's made the chase aspect harder. And then Lowers got worse because I used to surf a certain window where I could get it relatively crowded, and then the cam kind of screwed up that window. And then the professionalization culture and then the e-bikes and all this stuff just kind of screwed it all up. So it's a nightmare now. I mean, I love it. I love the place and I'm grateful for it. But yeah, so I've totally renegotiated now. It's a totally different kind of surfer. I just don't have any temptations for Lowers. Even though I check it, will see it occasionally, but I just... it's fine. Or even go back to Lagundri Bay where I don't have any temptation—just inclination. I'd want to go to other spots. They could be lesser waves, but just less crowded.
**Michael Frampton**
I love that. I can relate to it a lot because that basically describes my relationship with surfing now.
**Aaron James**
Oh, okay. Right.
**Michael Frampton**
And it's been like that for the past sort of five years. It kind of happened when I was living—and I spent, you know, a good four years living in Australia—shortboarding, wanting to get better at the performance style of surfing, traveling to Indo, and then living in Malibu. Tried longboarding First Point and shortboarding Zuma, and traveling down to Nicaragua. And then I surfed with Devon Howard one day out at Little Doom.
**Aaron James**
And I know him from Lowers. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Aaron James**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
He had quite a profound influence on me and suggested, well, why don't you get a glider? He just saw the way I was surfing and what I—the kind of waves I was looking for—and he's like, why don't you get a glider? I went down to San Diego and got an 11-foot glider off Josh Hall. And then that is the board that I've been riding ever since. And I'm just looking for little unique waves that are hard to surf or getting it and just surfing away from crowds.
**Aaron James**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I love it.
**Aaron James**
That's really cool. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Back to the simple joy of surfing and not—
**Aaron James**
Exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
I think it's still a pursuit of surf mastery because there's a different kind of challenge within that.
**Aaron James**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm a big believer of any sort of relationship—whether it be with a human or the ocean—if it's not growing, it's dying. It has to be growing in some way. And surf mastery doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to master surfing. It's just the path of improving in some way, whether that be mastering a different board or learning how to ride smaller waves, or even just maintaining your surfing standards as you age is a form of that.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. I think about it in terms of attunement. It's a skillful activity and what you're going for is attunement with the wave. But the way we do that is by constantly automating certain skills and then paying attention to new challenges. And that's the way we stay attuned and develop our skillful practice. And one version of it is you're trying to be the best surfer you can be, but it doesn't have to be that at all. It can just be switching up challenges and trying different things.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Aaron James**
But yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
There's something you said there—you said, I don't know if you used the words specifically—but you changed your surfing philosophy, let's say. Is that something that you sat down and thought about intentionally? How important is that process?
**Aaron James**
I don't know how other people go do it, but I'm a philosopher, so I'm a cogitator. So I use my philosophical skills. I mean, the skills really helped me. So I defined the old thing I was doing—the old activity. At that point, I said I had internalized the standards of that activity. So I had a hard time shaking the feeling that anything I was going to do was just going to be an inferior version. It was going to be—I was doing shitty surfing, a shitty surfer, low standards, subpar crap waves, not surfing well. I had to sort of—it takes a certain amount of reframing, intellectual and cognitive reframing, to think, no, wait, those are good standards for a different activity. But then that fills up with thought. It's like, but if you're doing a different activity, it can have its own standards. And then you don't apply the standards across. You don't judge pop music by the standards of whether Vivaldi and Mozart are great classical music. You're just judging apples and oranges. If you say, no—if you ask what's the best song or who's the best musical artist ever—that's not even an intelligible question. You could be asked, what are the most important genres of music? But then you're going to say, well, there's classical and then there's jazz and that kind of thing. But these just have—they're different types of things. So you assess them by their own standards. And it's not clear, if you're just talking about music period, if there's any set of standards that are specific enough to just sort of pick out the supreme form of music. I mean, some people have those views, but it's fairly silly. You're just saying, no, look, it's Beethoven's Ninth. That's the pinnacle of music.
**Michael Frampton**
Surfing is far more like music than it is like tennis.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. There are a lot of different kinds of surfing and they're all good in their own very different ways, and you assess them by the standards appropriate to the genre of surfing. So those kinds of thoughts—what I had to go through to just feel differently about this new thing I was doing. Because then when I had a thought like, oh, well, no, these are shitty waves—no, that's not. This is successful adventure surfing. This is good adventure surfing. I'm doing well. This is a goodness of a kind. Really rethinking that then freed me up to just enjoy it for what it is. And suddenly I had all the affect—just the pure stoke coming back and connecting to the sublimity and beauty of it. The stuff that really, you know, that surfers know but don't really talk about that much. But that's what stoke is all about—being caught up in the confluence of skill and changing circumstance. That's the way I think about it abstractly, but that's what stoke is about. And it just brought all that back. All that sort of sense of things came flooding back.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Aaron James**
I already had that broad idea of what surfing is, even though when I was still in the perfection performance mode, but there was further intellectual work to do to reframe it. But then once I thought it through, I just felt permission to go and just enjoy—just never go to Lowers anymore and just surf Crystal Cove every day. And just whatever. I don't care if my friends think that I'm doing something dumb. I'm really stoked. I'm down there by myself surfing fun waves. I'm like, what do I care? It's beautiful. I'm having a totally pure surfing experience, doing the same thing I loved when I was 12.
**Michael Frampton**
Sounds like the adventure surfing is as much of a journey within as it is without.
**Aaron James**
Well, it was for me to get to there—to start to that. Yeah. I mean, where it goes, I guess, the adventure surfing might require doing some adventure—actual exploring weird waves, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Every wave is different. So it's always—if you're trying to get closer to the center of now and be present, then that's part of the adventure, right?
**Aaron James**
Well, some people could do adventure surfing and never have done anything else and never really thought about it. That's just the thing they always did, and that's the thing they were always at peace with. And they always loved surfing. And they never had to think, rethink it. Or they just saw the other things as forms of surfing that never had any appeal or whatever. So they could be at adventure surfing but totally unreflective about it. So there was never any internal journey. They just fell into it. Sorry, I'm a philosopher, so I think that's a possibility. But for me, making a transition from one kind to another—or at least having a new kind, different kinds of surfing within a repertoire—that did require an internal change of really a journey of rethinking things. And then it was a journey too. Yeah. I mean, it was a journey for me intellectually to rethink that.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you think that all of your background in philosophy helped you to do that process? And are there specific questions that you'd ask yourself when you're developing a personal philosophy that crossover to developing a surfing philosophy?
**Aaron James**
Uh, yeah. The thing that philosophy makes you good at is identifying assumptions that you're making or other people are making, and then thinking about, wait a minute—is that true? What would it be for it to be different? What's the best way of thinking about things such that that's not true? And then what are the merits of it? And oftentimes that's really not obvious to yourself or to others, and you have to really think that through. And I do that all day long professionally for academic work, and I've done that now for decades. So that's a big part of my life. But I don't often need to do it that much. I didn't have to rethink—I mean, there were some adjustments in my earlier relationship to surfing, but it was still within the same sort of frame, form of surfing. And I made adjustments to it, and there were lots of frustrations that came out of that. But the frustrations I always found ways to manage. They never rose to sort of needing to rethink the entire enterprise that I was taking for granted.
**Aaron James**
I never did that before. But it was only once there was sort of a crisis, a personal crisis, which is—I suddenly just don't... can't... I just hate this now, you know?
**Aaron James**
Okay, wait a minute. And then the crisis was, well, I don't want to just quit surfing, you know, for the reasons I was saying, so how do I reconcile? And that was not obvious. In the way you're working on an intellectual problem, oftentimes you just pose the question—oh, well, look, here's another way of thinking. It's just obvious to you, or you're having—I'm having a discussion with someone else, and especially if you know the terrain and they're making certain assumptions, it's just obvious to you that they're making assumptions. Something you just point out. And then that wasn’t obvious to me. It took a while to figure out. I had to sort of just stare blankly, and not know. But I guess the way that being a professional philosopher, a skilled trained philosopher helped me too is I thought, well, I’ll just wait, you know, I’ll wait. I’m just going to think, I’m going to try to think about this. I’m going to wait and see—see if something comes to me to think through this more, you know, wait, try to understand what’s bothering me, what are the alternative ways of thinking about that, gradually letting myself be patient with that process as opposed to just being rash and shutting it down, just quitting and doing something else. But good. Yeah, no, it’s helped. It’s really been good. I didn’t go to Indo this year. I went to South Africa to see a friend, and we just surfed the Durban South Coast and a bunch of adventurous waves. I was doing adventure surfing there. So it was—I’ve been there before, but this was like—and I didn’t really care about scoring. It gets really, really good there. And we got good waves, but not anything like what it really—how it gets. But I was like, this is fine. This is adventure surfing. This is what I want, you know, so that was cool. So it still applies to travel and stuff. Well, it’s really freeing because you just don’t need to score perfect waves all the time. Yeah, you can just find a cool little cranny and go get it, get it wired. And anyway, so yeah, is this—this sounds up your alley? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was intrigued by the longevity stuff, because I do have a bunch of ideas. I’m into the longevity biohacking stuff. I’m thinking of working some of that into a book project as well. Like, so I have some ideas about that.
**Michael Frampton**
More philosophical, like the Dave Asprey sort of world?
**Aaron James**
That world, yeah. I don’t take him very seriously, but other—David Sinclair at Harvard Medical School, who I think is a more philosophical kind of researcher, Peter Attia, who’s a more hardcore wet blanket kind of guy. He’s a wet blanket. I mean, I like those two. I trust both those guys, and they have philosophical differences. And there's a kind of interesting difference in how they think about longevity, you know? And I think there's things you can say philosophically about how to finesse it that kind of connect to surfing as well.
**Michael Frampton**
I just recently read a book—the title escapes me—about how the brain gets better as you age. And another one by a Harvard professor, female psychology professor, I forget her name, talking about basically the extreme version of the placebo effect.
**Aaron James**
Oh, okay.
**Michael Frampton**
Fascinating books and backed up by studies as well. Yeah, one study in particular where she put a bunch of 80-year-old men into a house where everything in the house was dated 30 years ago. And they were only allowed to talk about things as if it was the present tense.
**Aaron James**
I think I heard this. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And their vision improved, and their walking improved, their health markers improved just simply by that. So I think, yeah, longevity has to do with the state of mind as well as—
**Aaron James**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
—as well as—
**Aaron James**
The social contact, the social context, and what's taking—That might be like, yeah, I think that's part of why some of the Blue Zone communities—why people do well—because it has to do with people being like, everyone’s old and kind of on the same page but still being active and social. And there’s still a lot of present-oriented things to live for that are joyful, exciting, lots of opportunities for social connection, doing things together. You know, about walking, games—sort of the way that surfers get together chatting out in the lineup. It’s all about like, the timeframe shrinks. Because it’s not like you’re six months, one year, two years. You know, it’s all like, what was it like at low tide? Maybe it’ll be better tomorrow. You know, it’s all really short—within hours or days. You know, the last one was so good—if it was really good as well, that might be point of conversation, but otherwise it’s like, last—well, you know, everyone’s like—is it—you know, it’s like days out or whatever. You know, like, the window shrinks really well. I think I’ve always thought of that as a big part of why surfing—it draws you into a present, a really narrow timeframe. That’s why—part of why it’s joyful, the social side of it. One of the philosophical thoughts—I mean, like in the David Sinclair—he’s got sort of a theory about why longevity work might work.
So the—I really like this idea. The idea that the commonality for what makes exercise so good, and—but also fasting—and also, why are all those things—why do these things work in terms of promoting lifespan, healthspan? They work because they’re putting stress on the body and on the cells, right? And so they’re—basically your cells, when stressed, when they’re not too comfortable—because you feel like you’ve got food, or—then they’re forced to make do with what they’ve got. Repair themselves. Use the lower quality proteins, synthesize that stuff, stuff like that. So the cells—like—and the different—and so you can stimulate that with the—best thing is exercise. Fasting is good. But then you can also do it with supplements and stuff. But this is all still pretty—supplements—but this is why I like—I mean, sorry, it’s pretty speculative in the sense that it’s like a nice theory and it’s a philosophical—it’s a theory and there’s a philosophical thought. And which is tied to like the idea that, well, maybe if the science progresses quickly enough, then—if you get on the bandwagon doing these sort of speculative biohacks, then you’ll stay ahead of the learning curve. And then maybe you can get not just like an extra six years, but you get an extra 10, 20 years of lifespan or whatever. Maybe even potentially could be even longer if you’re resetting the body clock or something like that. So this is all totally pie in the sky—not even in a bad sense—it’s a philosophical idea about like, that mortality is not as fixed as we think, right? And that there’s a value in trying to shoot for as long. And there’s a risk proposition. It’s like, the value of living longer is so great that it’s worth taking—even stuff that has a low probability of working. So there’s a lot of philosophically there. And so what I like about—what I like about Peter Attia is he’s just—he has a very different philosophical view, right? His idea—he’s Mr. Cold Water. He’s like, look, if you just look at what we already know, then none of these supplements really are going to make—we don’t know they make any real difference. They might. He says, look, it’s exercise. And it’s certain kinds of exercise. That’s the only thing that we know moves the needle on longevity, like by randomized control trials, good high-quality studies. The rest is super speculative.
And David Sinclair’s message is, “Well, I do a little weight lifting like once a week. I do a little exercise for a few hours, but mostly I just fast and take pills. And that’s how to live long and age backwards.” And Attia’s good point is like, look, if you just do that stuff, you’re not doing the thing that we already know—we already know promotes longevity, which is exercise. And it’s not any exercise. It’s exercise that promotes strength over time to prevent you from falling down while walking down a stair or a curb. Because that’s a killer. And if you survive, the recovery can be—that you’ve got to stop that. So you need strength training. And then after that, you need VO2 max. You need to get your capacity to process oxygen. And what does that is sitting on an exercise bike for three hours a week, right? And maybe a little high-intensity interval training can help.
The low-hanging fruit is the stuff we already know works.
**Aaron James**
And that’s just exercise—doing certain things, exercise regime. If you’re not doing that, you’re not serious about longevity. There’s a way—one way of thinking about the stuff that—that—this is going to connect—this is a long way around to a point we were making earlier in connection with surfing. So here’s my thought. So there’s something in between there, which is like—you don’t have to do a risk—you take a risk calculation now on the bet of longevity or some extra big boom in lifespan—big extra lifespan. But you also don’t have to think all you’re doing is eking out a few extra years doing arduous things now.
There’s a way of thinking about this, which is—what’s the value of living longer—a long life? Well, it’s that you’ve lived a life. What is it to be a living thing? Think about this. You’re an animal. Okay, what is it to be an animal? Well, like at the lowest level—what is it to be a living thing—is like at the cell level. It’s to be a thing that—it’s to be a thing that has a—there’s a boundary between what’s inside of it and outside of it, like membrane walls. And it moves through space. And it adapts to its senses and adapts to its surroundings. And it internalizes—it takes in resources from that to create energy to move through space. So it’s basically something like a relatively self-contained body that senses environment to move through space. So it’s movement—is the—is like the very essence—to be—as an animal. Like, that is what it is to be an animal. An animal is just a self-moving creature. Being self-moving just—it is what it is to be an animal.
And so what it is to live a biological life or be a biological animal just is to be a self-reproducing being whose ongoing existence—my existence in the future only happens because right now I’m doing these things. I’m sensing an environment, responding to it, and taking in resources, converting those to energy. That’s the only way cells or any animal perpetuates itself. So that’s what it is to live—to be alive. Okay.
So now, if you think, okay, I’m an animal, what is it—I’m a human animal, what is it to do that? Well, what is it to animal? Well, what is it to animal? Well, it’s—here’s what it is. It’s to move. It’s one of the most basic things to do—to be good at animaling—to be a good animal—is to move, move around. It’s the sense in moving around an environment that’s changing. You’re sensing and responding to the environment and then you’re moving in response to it. That’s like—what it is to fundamentally do well as an animal. That’s what all animals naturally do because they’re looking for food, reproduction. But they’re like—you have to rest—but that’s a temporary state, right? And most animals don’t have chairs. It’s no surprise, on this view, that chairs are like a curse from a lifespan and healthspan point of view. A sedentary life is like a disaster.
But we—and our self-conscious—so the worst thing to do to be a—for being an animal—is to sit around a lot. But—so human beings who’ve forgotten what it is to be an animal—to do well—just decide, well, I just want to be comfortable. So I’m going to sit around a lot. I’m going to eat whatever food’s available that is not fast. I’m not going to have any feelings of scarcity. There’s not going to be—no sort of temporary food scarcity. There’s going to be—I don’t want to have to exercise. I want to be fit and live long, but if I’m going to do that, that’s just a means of getting this bigger benefit, which is longer life. Like a longer life. Okay. For a long—for living forever, I’ll—okay, maybe I can—actually, most people aren’t persuaded because they’re not going to actually do the thing—the science we already know will give you a longer lifespan. Most people aren’t going to do it.
They’re not going to get their—they’re not going to figure out their VO2 max, get up to the norm, and then ride that down doing increasingly—with increasing marginal gains in their exercise regime every year. No, almost nobody’s going to do that. Only the really hardcore people. Nobody cares about living long enough to exercise that much because they don’t really—so the idea is like—is there some other way of thinking about why you would exercise?
And the idea is—yeah, that’s what it is to live well now, today. What it is to do well today as a living human being is to move. And more—to do well—is to move in the face of challenges. Like—this is what we were talking about with surfing. So like—yeah. So it’s the skillfully navigated environment.
And now you can think of what surfing is—it’s just like a beautiful exemplification of this thing—what it is to be an animal. But it’s now being done for all kinds of reasons—not being done for food, or for sex, or for shelter, or whatever—for survival. It’s being done for the joy of it. But it’s still not sitting around just to relax, right? It’s moving. It’s acting. It’s responding, sensing, being attuned to the environment.
And so it connects and has maybe—you know, connected to larger things and—you know, all this larger meaning as well. So this is a way of thinking about what’s beautiful in surfing—it connects with not just the bigger stuff like what Freud calls “oceanic feeling,” but like just what it is to be an animal. What it is to be a living being. It’s just to move and adapt and skillfully attune to your environment.
And so the idea on the longevity thing is like—look, so here’s why you should exercise now. Here’s why you should eat well now. Here’s why you should put your body under stress by fasting, by exercising—because that’s what it is to do well now as a living being. You’re not doing that to try to get this extra 10 years, or 20 years, or 50 years of longevity. You’re doing it because this is what it is to do well now—this year—to live well now, during this week, this month, this decade. That’s living well. So, okay, I’ll do that.
And if I can see the beauty and the joy and find some way of making it fun and worthwhile for its own sake—because it’s a challenge or because it feels good or whatever—then now that’s self-sustaining. And then the idea is you could do that and keep doing that. And now if you get lucky and science—you stay ahead of the science, and science serves up some discovery such that the things you’re doing, gradually adapting to it, let you live an extra five, 10 years, 20 years—then yeah, that’s all to the good. Why not be open to that? But it’s not like you’re forcing yourself to do a bunch of shit now for this promise of a long, way extra-long life.
So I think that’s kind of like an in-between view. And then surfing is one way of thinking about how to do it. And everybody’s got to find their own surfing. But I’ve had to supplement all this—so I started supplementing with other exercise too. Surfing. So, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. One of the things about surfing is it doesn't really put much—unless you're high performance, big waves—it doesn't really put much load through the system.
**Aaron James**
Not enough. Not enough as you age. Yeah. But anyway.
**Michael Frampton**
It sounds like Attia and Sinclair should start surfing basically.
**Aaron James**
Yeah, I imagine Attia—maybe he would—but I don't think Sinclair would. He's just kind of—he's a scrawny guy. He's not an athletic type. He's just a nerd guy in the lab. He wouldn’t. He just does the minimum amount of exercise, hoping he can get by with fasting. I'm not saying he won't live longer or whatever—maybe he will—but...
**Michael Frampton**
Well, there's two ways of looking at longevity too, right? There's "let’s try and live longer," or there's "no, let’s try and get more living out of what we have."
**Aaron James**
Yeah. Let’s try to live. And then it just turns out that a lot of what it is to live now also will make you live longer. And that can be a welcome side effect of living well now. And that means move your ass, get off your ass, move around, find new challenges, exert yourself. You know, just what we were saying—finding new challenges. Not stagnant. Not seeking comfort. Seeking comfort, which you do more and more as you age, right? You know, because you'd be like, I'm tired. I don't have energy. What do I want to do? I want to sit around. I want to relax. And so basically that’s the curse of prosperity—the curse of affluence and prosperity—which you have in spades once you’re middle-aged and have a comfortable life. And you can find any—and even develop your maybe interest in some... I can spend all day doing philosophy without exercising or surfing or whatever. What were you going to say?
**Michael Frampton**
Well, I think that those who seek comfort for comfort’s sake—it’s never enough. They always have to supplement it with a cocktail or some processed food or something. But if at the end of a day, you've been surfing, you've been to work, you've spent time with friends—yeah, you can sit down and relax.
**Aaron James**
Yeah, sure. I'm all for lazing and lounging and stuff, but like in its role. But even still, lazing and lounging can be like lazing around the house. It doesn't have to mean like sitting on the couch mindlessly scrolling through your social media feed. It can be like doing different projects around the house—trying, planting something, or something you read on social media, trying it out in the house or fixing it. And that doesn't have to be like a getting-stuff-done kind of thing. It can be you just following your attention wherever it naturally is drawn in a kind of totally free-flowing, relaxed, creative way.
**Aaron James**
So it doesn't have to be like a disciplined kind of thing.
**Aaron James**
That's really, I think, really valuable. That's a really important part of creative activity—for me anyway.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm gonna ask you a philosophical question. Okay. What is the meaning of life?
**Aaron James**
Oh, it's funny—I have an answer to this question. So it's a super simple answer. So here it is. Let me ask you this—let me put it this way first. What is it—first—so this is being a philosopher—first, let's ask a slightly different question. What is it for life to have meaning? So what is it for there to be a fact of the matter about whether life has meaning or not? What kind of fact is that—that it has meaning? Okay, so that doesn't tell you what the meaning of life is. It just tells you what kind of fact that consists of. It will point you the way to know what to look for. So here’s the answer. What it is for life to have meaning is just—for any set of events that occur—it’s for there to be a story that’s true enough, an apt story that’s true enough of those events. Okay? Okay, it's the best story of those events. So the meaning—what it is for meaning in life—is for there to be a true, apt story of the events that occurred in life. Okay, that’s partway there for meaning in life, I think. But then the other thing you need is that the story has to be a certain kind of story—not just any story. It has to be a story that has a function. It reconciles you to being alive rather than not, and to your life events having gone a certain way—having gone one way rather than another. So it’s a story you can tell that’s true and apt about a lot about the events of your life that you feel like you're glad that you lived. That was your life. You're glad to have had that life. That's what it is for it to be meaningful. It's—you can be reconciled to it. If your life is subpar—lacks meaning—if there's not enough there—you can’t be reconciled to it. Like it can be “All I did—like end of life—well, I did get a hole in one once, but I don't know if there’s any—I don’t know what my life amounts to.” Like someone at a nursing home, they're like, “What is my life?” “Well, I don’t know.” And they could go out dying kind of in despair because there’s not enough meaning there in their life, you know? But what people do when they’re finding meaning is they'll just tell stories. “Well, my kids didn’t grow up to be assholes, and my grandchildren are beautiful people.” And that's sort of—that’s the story. That’s the thing they did. That’s how they’re going to tell the story of their being a father, grandfather, grandma—kind of thing like that. Or—it doesn’t have to be about accomplishments either. It can be a story about failed efforts—what had serendipitous consequences that are interesting. That’s how I think about my midlife. So I just wrote a memoir about my forties. About my charity misadventures behind Lagundri Bay. I did a bunch of charity projects there with a local guy. And then I told the story of those things as a story of misadventure and serendipity—but not a complete success. So if you’re asking, what’s the meaning of my life? Well, what’s the best story you can tell about the events of your life? And does it let you reconcile yourself to having lived—that life? So that's it.
**Michael Frampton**
The meaning of life is to give life meaning.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. Maybe that’s—that’s way better. So far as—well, I don’t know if it’ll work for all living creatures because the other animals and all the cells and stuff aren’t storytelling creatures, right? It’s the humans that are the story—that are really prone to tell stories. It’s part of our sociality. I mean, dogs are incredibly social, but they don’t tell stories to each other. I mean, it’s part of what’s distinctly human—that we can represent the world in various ways and coordinate our different attitudes around—through language and these stories. And that’s a really, really big part of human sociality. So I think that and sort of narrative aspect of human—that is—it’s definitely part and parcel of human life. So what is it to be meaningful? It’s just like drawing from that way of being. Like what is it? You know, you’re already in on the stories. I mean, stories also have other functions other than being what constitutes meaning in life. Like explaining yourself to someone, making yourself intelligible to others, so you’re not dangerous or not too unpredictable or—you know—you could have a relationship with or be a friend. Or someone asks, “Why did you do that?” You just—you tell a story about why you did that. It could just be a rationalization, and maybe it’s not a true story. You’re just making something up on the fly, but it’s good enough in the moment to make you feel like you understand what you were doing, and that they can understand it. Maybe it’s passable, so it flies as a rationalization. But I wouldn’t call that meaning. So then bad views about meaning in life are just these—are rationalizations, right? They’re stories about life, but they’re just not—they’re not good stories. They’re not the best stories. They’re just stories that are getting told for an existential balm. You know, like, “Don’t worry, everything will work out in the end,” or something like that. What does that even mean? I don’t know if there’s really any—there’s not even any super cosmic story in which everyone—everything actually works out. I mean, like even the big one—eternal bliss in heaven for the elect—you know, like, there’s a whole crowd of people that are burning in hell. Eternal damnation doesn’t work out for those guys. Karma doesn’t work out. Like, you know, for the people that go down the hierarchy—the karmic hierarchy—they were human, then they became dogs, and then they became insects, and then they were just killed and became worms. That didn’t work. Things didn’t work out for them. So these are bad—those are—so you can criticize these. These are claims about what is meaning, but they’re not good stories that should reconcile you. So anyway, yeah, that’s my new take on that aspect of it. But actually, I don’t think that’s all of meaning. Because the basic meaning is still—the meaning of surfing is just attunement. Attunement to the world. And I think that’s a primitive. That doesn’t have to have a story to it. So the animals do that. Doesn’t have a story aspect to it. And we do make stories out of it all the time. And that’s what we’re sort of celebrating and we’re trying for.
**Michael Frampton**
Is the attunement of a lion have to do with surfing?
**Aaron James**
So the stuff I was saying about what animals do—before animals—like sensing, responding. Sensing an environment, moving through it in light of what it’s like—what opportunities for action it affords. “Affordances” is the way people talk about it. And then differentially skillfully responding to it for purposes of adaptation. So like, this is basically evolutionary stories about adaptation, about animals developing—being attuned to an ecological niche so they can survive and reproduce in it.
**Michael Frampton**
You saying that the act of surfing is just basically satisfying our animalistic nature?
**Aaron James**
I don’t think it’s—well, it depends what you mean by “basic.” If you mean something like “that’s all it is,” then I don’t think it’s all a lion is doing, or a dog is doing. I think it is what a lion is doing and an animal is doing, but it’s also something more. For example, here’s something that’s definitely attunement—and something animals don’t really have in the way humans have—music. Making music, listening to music. Me hearing a song, you hearing a song. I’m attuned to the song, you’re attuned to the song. We’re attuned to each other because we’re both listening to a song at a concert. That’s attunement. Okay? That’s human. That’s like deeply human-level attunement. That’s part and parcel of every religious tradition—music. Part of every culture—music’s really important. It’s one of the best things in life. Everyone agrees. Almost nobody hates—almost everybody loves music and thinks it’s the best. And then dancing to music is all part of this. Playing music—celebrated in the culture. So okay, what makes that meaningful? Well, there’s something that’s a distinctively human thing, but it’s still a kind of attunement. That’s like what the animal—the lion, the dog—is doing in attuning—or a worm is doing—in attuning to their environment. I still think of that as all different forms, ways that we attune, do attuning. And that’s like a master value that explains why truth is valuable, why poetic metaphor is valuable, why skillful practices are metaphor. They’re all forms of attunement. This is like a master theory of it. So that doesn’t have to be a story-based thing. That’s—call that basic meaning in life. And then—and there’s a distinctive thing that we humans do, because we’re storytelling creatures, which is we attune to ourselves and each other and the world through telling stories about the events—to make sense of them. Right? And that—I think that’s an essential part of meaning in life for people, for humans. Yeah. This is my grand theory.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, that's a good point. This is new, by the way, compared to—okay, it makes sense. Yeah. Because, I mean, it just—it’s more of a case for surfing, because not only does surfing satisfy that animalistic mammal that has to move in attunement with nature, it also satisfies the dancer and the musician who wants to be in sync with the sound waves of the ocean that are coming.
**Aaron James**
Absolutely. So it's not a surprise that surfing is all about waves, and wavelengths, and being attuned to waves—and waves, like—and so is music, and so is dancing. And it's all attunement. It's pure attunement. I mean, it's not—it's not pleasure. This is the thing to think about, the thing to get past—is not to make it too subjective, because it's not about the pleasure you get from music, or the pleasure you get from dancing, or the pleasure you get from surfing. The pleasure is, as Aristotle said, proper to a virtue. It’s proper to a skillful activity. It’s in an activity that’s a response to an environment. And the response to the environment—where you're in sync with larger things—you’re synced with wavelengths, with waves. You're harmonizing with waves and wavelengths. That's ocean waves, the way that they refract across a bottom. In a song, it’s the frequencies and the way they’re relating. In dancing, it’s moving your body in sync. These are all ways of mixing. Forms of conversation are ways we sync with each other as well. So I think these are social forms of attunement. I think that’s a master value. It’s what every religious tradition is after. What are they trying to do? It's—well, an idea of how you can commune with God or nature. I think of that as—even if they don’t use the word—if they think it's something else—they’re trying to be attuned to the world, to the larger, to the universe, or to larger things. It’s grandiose to call it the universe or whatever if you're just being a surfer, but it’s still pretty big. You're a surfer. It’s like, “I'm the ocean. Pacific Ocean.” I'm thinking about the storms circling around below New Zealand that are sending waves up to me. Same superstorm down there, sending waves up to the Indian Ocean. I just talked to my friend in South Africa—he's going to surf those waves, you know, J-Bay this week or whatever. So you’re attuned to large things. That’s the sublimity—that’s the sublime of large things in the traditional sense that sort of God is associated with. If it has to be super cosmic, like backing out, looking at the whole universe or whatever, then it's—I'm not even sure what it’s asking. It’s too—it’s getting too big or whatever. It’s getting greedy or whatever. Because the Earth isn’t big enough? Like, the Milky Way galaxy—which is a piece of shit speck of dust in the middle of nowhere from the universe—you know, but it’s like, the idea that there has to be something. But then there’s a whole set of galactic attunements that are out there too. So that’s all this bigger thing that we have some kind of cosmic place. It doesn’t have to have any further meaning other than there’s just this thing—the sublimity of it is—you know—there. We are connected. So this is what I think of as—surfing is right on the cusp there of what I like about it. This way of thinking about surfing is that it’s on the cusp of the low—what the animals, even the worm is doing—but it fits with whatever religious tradition or spiritualistic tradition is doing too, at one level of description.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, not on all levels. Yeah, right.
**Aaron James**
I think that's the true level. The ultimate truth is that all the truth is about attunement. And why it’s valuable—that’s the ultimate truth. So that’s my own story about meaning, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Is there anything that surfing can't give?
**Aaron James**
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't—by itself, the act of surfing doesn’t give you all the need for social connection. This is really important for humans. I mean, like—
**Michael Frampton**
Well, it depends on where you surf and who you surf with.
**Aaron James**
You have to bring friends. You know, friends have to be—I don't know—around, alive, not have family commitments, so they can post up with you in whatever sort of spot you’re in. I mean, you know, like—I mean, there’d be something lost, even if you had Tavarua all to yourself and no one was coming and you just had it for the rest of your life. Like Jon Rose. I mean, it was the resort. Say he got exclusive rights back and he just closed off everyone from being there and just decided to live solo, surf Cloudbreak. I mean, he’s—you know, it doesn't sound insane to a surfer, but like—he’s going to miss out on all the life of a surfer. And in fact, he can be there anytime, and he spends a lot of time in La Jolla, where he’s from, and he’s got relationships. So the social side of it, and all the relationships and connection to human society—man’s a social animal, like Aristotle says—and so that surfing as such doesn’t get you—like riding surfing good waves doesn’t get you that by itself. Bring your friends. Okay. But how long can your friends stay?
**Michael Frampton**
The car park is part of—and that's a social—yeah, I agree.
**Aaron James**
Yeah, I agree. So that’s a way you can sort of create little forms of society around surfing and surf breaks. And that adds a lot of meaning, I think. But that adds it in its own way. It’s sort of premised on surfing and appreciation of surfing and love of surfing, but it’s not—that’s not the act of surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
Just—surfing encompasses far more than the act of surfing. It’s the culture of surfing. It’s the discussions about surfing.
**Aaron James**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Aaron James**
If you want to sweep in the whole culture of surfing—yeah. But then the point is that the culture of surfing involves a lot more that’s valuable that goes beyond the act of surfing itself. For as beautiful as it is—it is. I mean, the culture of surfing wouldn’t be cool and awesome as it is if the act of surfing weren’t this incredible thing. But it’s still not the whole thing. The sociality is just a separate thing. I mean, it’s still part of it. You can be a surfer—solo session—in the best waves of your life, and get one of the best tubes of your life, come out of the barrel and have an ecstatic sense of bliss. But then be like, “I wish somebody would’ve seen that.” “I wish I had one friend who I could even tell, like, just talk about it.” Paddle back out and go, “Oh my God.” You know, like—the best tube of your life doesn’t provide that. It doesn’t provide the social connection.
**Michael Frampton**
That's right. And I would hazard a guess to think that a lot of people who do surf—the social aspect of surfing might be quite a large part of that. Because they know if they’re out there at 7 a.m., that so-and-so is going to be there to catch up with. So surfing is very—it’s a unique thing for everyone. We all get different things out of it.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. And actually there’s a longevity connection here, by the way. This fits with why, like—just surfing and sticking with surfing—as a biohack basically, from a longevity point of view. Beyond the other reasons we mentioned—health, exercise. But the other thing that fits with the longevity studies, like the Harvard Longevity Study that tracked people over 50 years—the number one thing that correlates with longevity is incidental interactions with people that are outside their narrow circle of trust. So the second—the quality of intimate relationships—was the number two factor. And that was defined as people you were close enough to ask for a loan from. Then there’s this broader set of people. The people who live long all had—well, there's a correlation anyway—between people who live long and people who had lives rich in people they would just bump into. Could be at a coffee shop, or a third place—a library, a park, or the beach. But surfers have it in droves. They stick with a regular surf spot. They have all their friends. Chat about the waves. Surf tales. Surf stories. They’re, in effect, doing something that correlates with longevity even if they never surf. Just by being part of the regular chatting and surf culture, which is all about the love of waves. So that’s—like—it’s crazy. That’s more important, correlation-wise, than marrying the right person—that’s number two. Or having a good relationship with your kids. All these people down at the beach—the people that live surf—are in one sense—I don’t know what the causal relationship is. The longevity study won’t tell you that. But you could speculate about what it is. Maybe it’s something to do with what we were saying earlier about socializing in the Blue Zones. Something about the sense of meaning and connection and social connection and feeling like you belong—maybe that’s what it is. And that’s what surfers get all the time if you’re just participating in surf culture. And they don’t get that from just riding waves. It’s the socializing around riding waves that provides that.
**Michael Frampton**
But I would suspect the people who you trust enough to ask for a loan—you’d get all of that from them in a far safer way. What you’re getting from people who you don’t know that well is a little bit of mystery, a little bit of chaos, maybe even. It’s still human interaction, but there might be an element of anxiety there as well, which is a stressor. Which is, as you know, it’s like exercise—stress to the body. Maybe we need that randomness of stress as well.
**Aaron James**
That could be. Yeah, I don’t know. I’m thinking it’s more like the element of surprise and serendipity and the sense of life is magical. That’s what I would think of. I mean, you bump into somebody and then you don’t see them for a while, and then you thought of them, and then the next day you saw them down at the beach. “Hey, I was just thinking of you.” Like, that sense of serendipitous connection. We have a lot of meaning around that. And I think that’s—it does feel magical. But it’s also fairly predictable because it’s like a relatively set number of people showing up to the same kind of place repeatedly. You don’t predictably meet any one person, but you will encounter a lot of the different people pretty reliably over time. This is just part of the way of thinking about the value of communities organized around a life. A lot of people organize their lives around a common place. That creates a sense of community because it creates these serendipitous interactions. It’s predictable—and this is why we organize around common places—but any particular given interaction is serendipitous. And it makes for friendship. You bump into somebody three times and you’re like, “Hey, let’s go have some beers.” It even feels uncanny. It feels meant to be—and magical. There’s just a lot of ways that life feels meaningful and enchanted—just from that. Yeah. So I think that’s—you kind of belong. You feel like fortune is on your side. You belong to the world. Fortune’s on your side. Just—all these little interactions really bring a lot of meaning. Magic is the term people talk about it. But it’s not woo-woo magic. Not woo-woo magic. But it is a certain sort of magical way life can be beautiful and sublime. And yeah. So I think that’s part of it. That’s just part of the incidental friendships. So surfers are getting that. But you can get that by other sorts of relationships around common interests. But you don’t have to be in a Blue Zone or an old folks home. You’re out in nature and a beautiful place. And you know—yeah—you can do it for a long time.
**Michael Frampton**
You mentioned religion and God. What’s your definition of God?
**Aaron James**
Well, I like this—Spinoza has this kind of—it seems like he’s evasive, because he talks about “God or Nature.” He has this super surfer view. So this is Spinoza. He’s a super heterodox Jewish philosopher. Heterodox in that he’s accused of both being an atheist and a pantheist at the same time. Because what he thinks is that—it’s basically that God and nature are kind of one and the same thing. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist. God exists. It’s all nature. So he gets called an atheist—like, “You don’t believe in God.” He’s like, “No, no, I believe in God.” But, “Oh, you’re a pantheist.” “You mean you think everything that is, is God?” And then it’s like, maybe that’s his view. But he uses this phrase—the Latin phrase—“God or Nature.” And he’s kind of evasive about it. But his idea is that through skillful activity—including things like cooking and exercise and joyous conversations and dinner parties—by doing that, you're gradually getting closer to nature. And therefore closer to God. So you're a part—that’s like a perfection. Increasing skill in these ways—perfecting in activities—is being closer to God and closer to nature. Closer to God. And that’s all the same thing. So I think this is very surfer. Put it that way. That’s not the traditional monotheistic definition of God, on which God’s a separate and independently existing being or entity, aside from the universe, which might have existed or not.
**Michael Frampton**
That.
**Aaron James**
Was an ancient.
**Michael Frampton**
Way of thinking, and it's been bastardized over time as well. I think maybe they thought about it differently than we do. And I think they thought about it back then—oh, it could be closer to what you're saying now—Mother Nature. The skill thing points to maybe like, if you're getting better at something, then you're envisioning yourself as being better at that in the future. And that's what you're looking towards—is God is you tomorrow who's a little bit better than you were today.
**Aaron James**
Oh, okay. I'm not sure that would be—I don't know if that's Spinoza’s view anyway. But I think it’s supposed to allow the idea—I mean, it could allow the idea—that there’s some self-transcendence in the activity like that. You can think of through your activity, it's not just your own perfection that you're striving for, it's like excellence in the activity. And that's connecting you to the excellence in surfing, in waves, in riding waves. So—and there's self-transcendence—you can think the value of that goes beyond the value of your performance. And that is what surfers think. This is why you can go and hang around the car park and share the love of surfing, even if you've stopped doing it well. You have an injury, your better days are behind you. It's still not about your own perfection, but still your appreciation of the activity. I mean, a lot of times—this is a point Aristotle made—but one thing that appreciation and enjoyment of an activity often comes with is a greater level of expertise in your own skillful practice. The better you get at something, the more you often enjoy it. But on this view, it's not like—there's still an element of self-transcendence that could come from that appreciation. Becoming better and better as a writer, which is a difficult thing to do—I write—and it's a really hard thing to do. And your standards are always rising faster than your ability. You don't ever get to feel very satisfied. You might grow a lot as a writer, but what you really come to appreciate is the craft of writing, which is a longstanding human tradition and piece of culture and constantly being practiced. Appreciating other people's writing and great works of writing more than your own—something like that. You might appreciate and enjoy that as much as your own progress in writing. You know, you might take it when you can get it.
**Michael Frampton**
Back to surfing and God—is surfing purely selfish?
**Aaron James**
Oh no, no, no. I don’t think at all. I think it's about attuning to larger things in that connection.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, but that's within your own experience.
**Aaron James**
No, no, no. I think the value of this experience of surfing is that the surfer is attuned to the natural world—to the ocean wave formations and the bottom bathymetry and the breaking waves. They are attuned to it in a harmonious way. That’s a real fact about the world. They are experiencing it, and they are enjoying the experience of it. But the value of it is that. I mean, it wouldn't have the same value if they were just on an “experiencing surfing” experience machine—on a VR headset in a Lazy Boy. Like someone could have the qualitatively exact same experience and enjoy it, sitting in that Lazy Boy, and have all the same pleasure—but not be doing the activity. And they're not succeeding. And they’re not doing well in life in the way that the surfer is who's actually riding the wave. They’re not. They might be indistinguishable even experientially, but you're not surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
I can grant you that surfing a wave is less selfish than sitting in a Lazy Boy. I give you that.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. No, but you're trying to achieve something. I mean, it does involve you, because you're—if you're the surfer, right? You're trying to be attuned to a wave in a certain way. So that makes it self-referential partly. But that doesn't have to be really—your sense of self can also blur, as often happens on good waves. Right? You're attuned to—so as you go along the wave, you have to adjust, constantly adjust body position, and respond to the next moment of the wave—what it's doing. And you have to do that spontaneously. And that often involves drawing you out of your awareness of yourself. Like, you might think one part of your body position or another part, but in the limit—like a really good long tube—you might completely lose all awareness of yourself temporarily. But then realize—see the lip—realize you’ve got to twist or something. And then—back to total absorption. Experientially, the boundary between self and wave and world can be pretty fluid in the experience of the surfer. It's still you doing it in some sense, right? There's a surfer riding the wave. But you're doing it for surfing. And it's you surfing the wave.
**Michael Frampton**
Isn't surfing pointless?
**Aaron James**
No, surfing's worth doing for its own sake.
**Michael Frampton**
It makes me think of—if you're having trouble catching waves, don't try and catch the wave. Accept the wave’s invitation to dance.
**Aaron James**
Yeah, right. Sure.
**Michael Frampton**
The point I’m trying to make though, is like—it’s selfish in the terms of, when you go surfing, you’re not helping other people.
**Aaron James**
Okay, so yeah. So things don’t have to be—there’s altruism in the sense of altruistic motivation or altruistic actions, in which the goal is just to benefit someone else.
**Michael Frampton**
Society as a whole.
**Aaron James**
Sure. Yeah. Society, right. Contribute to society, contribute to someone else, some other person. Is there anything wrong with friends—friends doing something together because it's mutually enjoyable? Is that selfish? There's nothing selfish about that. Two friends having a nice chat. Two friends seeing a movie together. Two friends taking a walk. They're doing it because it's mutually beneficial. Is it selfish? It's not selfish. There’s nothing selfish about it. This is like a wonderful thing to do in life—for its own sake. Take a walk with friends. Chat with friends. If you're really someone's friend and you like doing stuff together, you don’t think, “Why do you do this?” “Well, because I enjoy walking with my friend.” That underscribes what you're doing. No, because talking with friends is great. It's worth doing for its own sake. We do that for its own sake. I mean, because we value friendship. We value friendship for its own sake. You value having friends. But because you value friendship for its own sake, you also value other people having friendships. So you might respect their friendships because you know what kind of value it has. Surfing—you surf for its own sake. And especially when you're the surfer. But your valuing surfing for its own sake means that you really appreciate seeing surfing done well. When your friend gets a good wave, or when a stranger gets a good wave—a stranger who’s been waiting a while finally nabs a good one—you’re like, “Yeah, good on ya.” Maybe the guy’s kind of an asshole, but you’re still like, “Yeah, I’m still happy for him. He finally got one.”
**Michael Frampton**
I like that. That's a good perspective.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. So it's not—the motives are not—I mean, there are some people who are just completely selfish surfers. That’s possible. But I don't think that's the typical motivational profile.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I agree. I also think that if you're a surfer and you love surfing, if you make surfing one of the priorities in your life, you're actually a better person in every other aspect of your life. You're a better husband, you're a better worker, et cetera, as well. It's not selfish in that way as well.
**Aaron James**
Okay. Yeah. So those are side effects. I mean, there’s one way of thinking about it, which is they’re side effects—like, you're more easygoing and you're more relaxed, you’re less stressed out. And so you’re better able to fulfill other obligations or provide benefit to other people or society. I think that's real. But I think there might be something more than just accidental side effects. I mean, being a surfer means loving surfing and caring about something for its own sake, and engaging life for its own sake in a really robust way. That’s itself really valuable. And that lets you be the kind of person who engages other things in that same way. Like, you're good—you can get—because you know stoke as a surfer, you can get stoked about lots of other things. Surfers get stoked about lots of things. They’re just prone to get stoked about stuff. I mean—not things like arduous labor or whatever—but surfers are like the kind of people who can find a lot of joy and stoke in activities. I mean, a lot of surfers take to golf. I don't know—maybe there's a lot of similarities in the body movement or it’s individualistic or something like that. It's not just incidental. It’s a way of valuing activities or a way of valuing life or engaging life that flows over immediately to all kinds of other ways of doing other things, including being in a relationship—being a lover or a friend. You can be really stoked for somebody else’s—stoked to serve them or help them or support them or whatever. Contribute to them. Invest in them. Really stoked about that in a way that’s—it can be totally altruistic, where the boundary between self and other doesn’t really matter that much. And you might be that kind of person precisely because you’re the kind of person who values surfing. And the boundary between self and wave blurs there too. And you have a sense that that’s a supremely beautiful thing to do in life. So you do it. You do it in a partnership as well. Yeah. So I think that—I don’t know. That’s a little bit more than just sort of an accidental battery—accidental connection. Surfing really recharges the batteries, and now I have more energy for other things. It's not just instrumental. There’s still a way of valuing activities. It’s like you're doing the same thing as surfing at one level when you're doing these other things. A way of living life.
**Michael Frampton**
I've never thought of it like that. I like that though. You must have some different thinkings and definitions on what selfishness itself is.
**Aaron James**
Oh, yeah. I do, in the sense that I think—the one that comes up pretty significantly in this—well, here I like Rousseau. Rousseau was a pioneering philosopher on this that had huge influence on psychology and stuff. So he thinks there’s one form of caring about yourself that’s just totally innocent. It’s just the way every animal cares about themselves. You're looking out for your own. You feed yourself. You shelter. You do things that you need to survive. And that’s what he calls *amour de soi*—it’s French, you know? And then there's a different thing. A different thing, which is of caring about yourself—is what we might call status consciousness. Or he calls *amour-propre*. That’s caring about how you measure up in the eyes of other people. And especially—how you rank relative to other people. So that you are either superior or inferior. There’s this comparison and status between you and others. Rousseau’s big idea is that this innocent thing that we do—the animal self, innocent kind of self-love—is fine. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s totally natural, normal, healthy. This other thing—*amour-propre*, status consciousness—is the root of all evil. It’s the root of all evil in social relations and our personal vices. It ruins us and makes us unhappy. It ruins social relations. It makes democracy impossible. It’s the cause of political evil. So he’s got this robust story about this. And by the way, this is his early work—his *Second Discourse on Inequality*. This story is where he first told this. And there’s a later book called *The Social Contract*, which was the first modern version of democracy that in fact had a big influence in Europe and instigated the French Revolution and then the American Revolution. So it actually—well, just really quickly—the idea of his, one way of thinking about his idea of democracy was that it answers to this fundamental form—way that we’re self-conscious. It solves that problem. Our status consciousness means—it’s basically an unstable—normally an unstable—situation. Because if we're competing for status, there's no way—like, I always have to rank myself. I can't love myself unless I rank myself as your superior. You can't love yourself unless you rank yourself as my superior. Or if you do accept yourself as my inferior, then you're living in dejection. You can't love yourself that way. You're conflicted. So all these evils and vices come out of this kind of status relation. But there's a solution. There's a way out of the status contest. And that’s to have a form of political community—democracy—in which everyone is sort of regarded as an equal. So at one level, we're all political equals. We have a republic of equals. Everyone gets a say in our political decisions at one level—our rights. And our rights and freedoms and prerogatives are all the same. And we all count as equals in that regard. So it confines our status contest to, like, who’s a better surfer, who’s a better artist, who has more money. It kind of contains the problem. That's the idea. That’s his idea of why democracy could last, when it never had in the past. And, so far, we’re doing the world’s longest historical experiment. We’re seeing how long it can last. And it’s on the ropes, right? Not the experiment, but… But that’s the big idea. But you see it in droves—the status consciousness in the surfing lineup. So this isn’t just about the act of surfing the wave, but it’s surfers competing for waves in the lineup. A lot of what they’re competing over is—well, just to get a wave—but it’s also about their status position in the lineup. Whether they’re getting the respect they think they deserve—either as a local, or whether they’re getting enough good waves, or whether they’re getting their fair share. And then they go to blows and fight—fight over this. What do surfers fight about? I mean, they pass all the time on good waves and let the other guy go if it's the other guy’s right of way—showing respect. But they go to blows and have fights—altercations over perceived violations of the rules of right of way—all the time. And what are they fighting for there? Well, it’s for status and respect. They’re trying to exact respect from the others. They’re in a status contest, because they’re not going to give it to you. Who belongs? Who’s really an equal? Localism is about creating a hierarchy. “We’re not all equal. Some pigs are more equal than others.” To put it in terms of George Orwell’s *Animal Farm*, “All pigs are equal, and some pigs are more equal than others.” You know? Like, “All surfers—surfing is for everyone. The beach belongs to everyone.” And “Some surfers are more equal than others,” meaning, “We have a right to whatever waves we want, and then you just get the scraps.” And then amongst the people within the hierarchy, they might have their own pecking order. That’s all about status. That’s a social hierarchy that’s run on status. Now, I think that leads to a lot of behavior that is totally self-regarding and self-interested. But what people are fighting for is not just getting more waves. Because somebody might still fight, even though they just got a shit-ton of really good waves. And they might even be tired. They don’t need another wave, as it were. They’re not even that worried about it. But they’re still worried about defending their position in the hierarchy. So they might still not let someone go, or call the other person off, exercise their local prerogatives to just get a good one—or get another good one, yet another. And they know everyone else is human, because they get—“This guy just got another fucking good one.” But he doesn’t care, because he’s like, “Yeah, you bet. You deserve it. You’re beneath me. Get used to it.” That might be his point. That’s why he takes off. And so dominance relations can be a big part of surfer motivation. Surfers will go out and say they want to go dominate. They want to go get a lot of waves and dominate. So that’s way more than self-interested. That’s not just for the love of waves. That’s not just wanting to get your share. It’s not just ego. It’s not just egoistic. It’s of a deeper, darker kind of thing that’s behind a lot of life’s social, society’s social ills and vices.
**Michael Frampton**
And so I think—
**Aaron James**
That Rousseau story works for the surfing lineup. Like, it works really well.
**Michael Frampton**
The dominance—do you think that stems from caring what other people think?
**Aaron James**
Yeah. I mean, it does in the sense—I mean, in different ways. It's not just vanity, wanting to be seen for being, you know, beautiful, good surfer or whatever. It's wanting to be seen as having your proper place in the hierarchy recognized. So if someone's a top dog—wanting to be seen as top dog, right? And that’s what they call getting respect they deserve, their due, getting their propers, right? That’s what they’ll fight for. They're going to fight to not lose dominance. You know, if they were previously dominant—like local—and they're starting to lose their ability, they can't surf as well, then they might become more of a barking dog. They're not giving up. This is like the silverback who's being chased. This is more of the animal kingdom. Higher apes do this in droves. This animal kingdom behavior—it does apply over. But in humans, it takes a more insidious form because we tell all these rationalizing stories about why we're entitled. "You know, I live here, la la la. I've been surfing here 40 years, la la la. I'm the better surfer, la la la." We make all these stories up, right? And some of them might have only the slightest real justification, and the rest is just rationalization. I think there's something to say for localism—the people that have invested a lot of time in a break, they know how the break works, and they have a stake in preserving it so that it's protected and preserved. And there are ways it can be degraded, and they have a stake in that. And they're often the ones that are best positioned to know what orderly wave sharing looks like. And so they often should have more authority in disputes about what that is. Those are sort of fair prerogatives that locals—people who surf somewhere a lot—have. Okay, local privilege goes way beyond all those sort of good justification.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's complex. Just preserving healthy order, yeah.
**Aaron James**
And it's all these complex stories which we tell ourselves to go so far as to justify violence. Local guys justifying violence—like literally going and kicking someone's ass, or ganging up on some surfer, or having a fight in the water. So then that goes pretty quickly to a lot of what—humans—that's not animals hurting each other either, because animals do hurt each other, but often they mostly avoid each other, or they hurt each other—sometimes there's a prey relationship and sometimes it's status—but humans go out of their way. Humans go out of their way to kill each other at great cost to themselves. And the murder rate around the world is mostly men killing men—mostly. And in one study of murder worldwide, the causes were—and they put it in this nice phrase—"altercations of relatively trivial origin." Okay, so this is men—one man killing another or trying to kill each other—and they're doing it over trivial reasons, which are to them not trivial, because it's slights, displays of disrespect. And then they're fighting, or they're fighting over status, or fighting over keeping their place in a hierarchy. They can't walk away. They can't just let it go, because they've got to fight. And they fight to the death. They put themselves at risk of death, getting sued for their house, losing their life or going to jail. They do this. And so surfers do that. But men around the world do this. Right? And that's distinctively human. That's not—it's way beyond animalistic killing. That's a deeply human kind of evil. And surfers know it all too well. You grow up figuring out how to manage that shit. What's your place? You're just going to avoid it? You're going to be cheerful and just let it all slide over your head? You're going to try to work your way up the pack, your hierarchy? You're just going to be such a good surfer that everybody defers to you? You're going to try to become the local asshole, because your uncle was? So now you can do it. They've got to find their way. And that’s these dynamics. That's selfishness, but selfishness isn't really—it's too crude. What is selfishness? I mean, it's too crude. It's like, there's nothing wrong with going in and getting waves. Enjoying attunement to the wave. You can do that partly for your personal enjoyment, for the love of surfing. That's a mixed thing. Nothing wrong with that. You can just as well enjoy someone else surfing a wave, seeing someone else surf a wave for the love of surfing. But that's not—that's less selfish, more altruistic. But there's a self—you're still enjoying being part of it. But then, the really sort of pernicious form of selfish is like status consciousness and aggressive attempts to preserve your own place in a hierarchy, or put other people in their place to preserve a hierarchy you identify with. Now you're getting into dark selfishness. And that's not just one surfer greedily trying to get a wave—out-jockey someone else for a wave so you get the good wave and they don’t. That’s contest for waves. This is way beyond. This is like upholding a hierarchy—a dominance hierarchy. And that’s going way beyond. That’s selfish in lots of ways, but in a darker—morally darker.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. Are you also saying that it's selfish in a way to compare yourself to others? And it's less selfish—like, if you're surfing to be better than someone else or catch more waves than someone else—that’s selfish. But if you're just surfing to be in tune with nature, then it's different, even though it might look—even though it might look similar to someone else. It's what's going on within you, and the reasons why you're surfing is what really matters. Which brings us right—
**Aaron James**
So that's a good way of thinking about how our own attitude towards surfing can corrupt the act—the very activity we're doing. Yes. So two different surfers surf similar waves. Each one—one surfs it just for the love of the wave and love of—not comparing, just enjoying, stoked. They want to share their good fortune with friends, naturally. There’s no *amour-propre*. There's no status consciousness there, right? Another surfer surfs a very similar wave in a very similar way, very similar style, but they're doing it to surf better than this other guy. To get more waves. To get another guy out from under—another wave from out in front of these other guys. To uphold their position in the pack hierarchy. Now, that status consciousness—those comparisons—are now—that’s pernicious. And now that's going to undercut the value of the activity. So you can think of—this is Rousseau's idea of what—a lot of our activities are conflicted in this way. So our motivations are conflicted. And so status motivation can corrupt the value of the other activities that we're otherwise doing. His famous—in the *Second Discourse*—the early signs of status consciousness catching on are—so he's got this idea of the settled associations of these hunter-gatherer groups, where they learn to cooperate and they get enough resources so that they have time for leisure. And then—so then they gather around a campfire just to relax together in communal activity. But then people naturally—what do you do around a campfire? Well, one person starts singing. Right? And then, oh, that's a wonderful thing. They sing and music and sharing a communal experience. But then one person has a really great voice and the other one's kind of pissed off they can't sing as well. And that comparison—already.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Aaron James**
That's manageable. It's not really a big problem, but that's already—that’s the beginning of status consciousness—*amour-propre*. And that's the thing that later—once you have a system of property and money and status comparisons—that gets radicalized and undoes society. And leads to a dictatorship—kind of tyrannical dictatorship. But it starts at the campfire. So in other words, the thing that the group enjoys, the society enjoys together—which is communal activity—gets corrupted by status consciousness. And it sort of leads to this uncontrollable down-spiral. And one way of reading it is that democracy can help resolve that and give us a way to relate as equals, and then at least consolidate or isolate our status comparisons so they're limited to sporting contests and stuff like that. And—but—how well that's working is debatable. We have this mix of motivations. Some of them are natural and good—like self-concerning and other-regarding—but then there’s status consciousness, and that corrupts these other motivations and corrupts our activities. That's a really central Rousseauian idea, and surfing totally fits. I mean, arguably it fits competitive surfing as well too. I mean, maybe this is a debate about this, because competitive surfing does have lots of advantages in inducing greater performance. But for a lot of surfers themselves—if they are surfing to be the best or get a ranking—they’re essentially—that’s comparative. Like kind of status comparisons. It’s literally scored as a comparison. And that can—they can lose their own appreciation of the value of surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
**Aaron James**
I think I remember Mark Occhilupo saying—so he'd already succeeded, I think he'd been world champion too—and he said something about how he didn't really learn to love surfing until he just surfed for himself. Now, so this is—one way that sounds selfish, but it's not. It's less selfish than him surfing to win. Him surfing to win is surfing for status. Right? He had mixed motives. Like, he always loved surfing, obviously. You don’t get to be as good a surfer as he is without loving surfing. But he acquired status in this sort of like, kind of mixed—just by his natural gifts. And he did win a year—world champ. But then, he wasn’t enough of a competitor, maybe, to really sustain it over—year after year or whatever. And then he sort of gets burned out on competition. He learns to surf for himself. But that way of putting it—I would say he’s learning to surf for himself—he’s learning to just surf for the simple beauty and joy of surfing, which is about a loss of self and connection, communion with the waves. You’re surfing—and that's learning to surf for the love of surfing, which involves valuing something for its own sake. So that’s a much less selfish—in one sense—way of being than the status-conscious way. No, I don't actually have anything against professional surfing either. But I think it has its risks.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. For most of us, surfing is an art form. For some people, it's a sport and a competition. But I think that’s a—that’s a nice way to round it off and to finish the conversation here, which is where we started, which is surfing for yourself and for, you know, the attunement and just keep it simple—for the simple act of surfing.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. Yeah. Surfing for yourself and surfing for surfing don't have to be—they can be just a blurred thing. Self and surfing blurred. So it's not inherently selfish. It's self-transcending.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Aaron, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate it.
**Aaron James**
Yeah. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Great to be with you.

111 Surfing, Philosophy & the Search for Meaning: Longevity & Adventure with Aaron James
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

110: 3 Unconventional Surfing Tips To Catch More Waves and Learn Fast Mar 03, 2025

Are you still struggling to catch waves—even after months of trying? What if the problem isn’t you, but the technique you were taught?

In this episode, surf coach Michael Frampton breaks down the three unconventional, yet game-changing, tips that helped a frustrated beginner surfer finally start catching waves—without paddling, without stress, and without shame. If you’ve ever felt like giving up, this one’s for you.

Learn why “matching” waves beats “catching” them—and how this mindset shift changes everything.
Discover how to spot the right kind of whitewater for maximum success.
Get a simple, no-paddle drill that can skyrocket your progress in just one session.

Press play now to hear the exact tips that helped Jason—and dozens of other surfers—go from stuck to stoked in weeks, not years.

Join the Wave Catching Academy: https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1

You Tube Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpEKf1cbT4Q

Key Points

Introduction of the podcast and its purpose to help surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain confidence in the water.
Announcement of a long-form interview with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James about surfing philosophy, encouraging listeners to subscribe and stay tuned.
Story of Jason, a 42-year-old beginner surfer who struggled to catch waves despite surfing almost daily for three months, highlighting the importance of proper technique and guidance.
Tip number one: Match waves, don't catch waves, emphasizing a change in perspective and the importance of the language used to shape beliefs and actions.
Tip number two: Focus on wave selection by choosing waves with smooth flat water in front, as not all broken white water waves are equal.
Tip number three: Stop headling; beginners should use an 8 or 9-foot soft top, position the board correctly, and jump onto the board as the white water hits the tail to match the wave's speed.
Summary of the three tips: Match waves, choose the right white water, and stop headling, with a reminder to check the show notes for a visual demonstration.
Promotion of the Wave Catching Academy as a solution for those frustrated with not catching waves, with a call to action to join before registrations close at the end of the week.

Outline

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast

The Surf Mastery Podcast aims to help passionate surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain wisdom and confidence in the water.
The podcast caters to both beginner surfers struggling to catch waves and longtime listeners.
An upcoming long-form interview with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James on surfing philosophy is announced.

Story of Jason and the Importance of Correct Technique

Jason, a 42-year-old beginner surfer, had been surfing almost daily for three months but felt like giving up due to lack of progress.
Jason had taken a few group lessons at a local surf school and watched YouTube videos but was not making progress.
A session was booked with the podcast host to address Jason's struggles.
The host observed Jason's technique and identified that Jason was doing almost everything wrong but remained positive and enthusiastic.
Jason was advised to use a bigger board and focus on matching waves rather than catching them.

Tip Number One: Match Waves, Don't Catch Waves

The first tip emphasizes a change in perspective: instead of trying to catch waves, one should match them.
Waves are not running away; they are coming towards the surfer.
This tip encourages surfers to think of surfing as dancing with the ocean.

Tip Number Two: White Water Needs Flat Water

The second tip focuses on wave selection and the importance of choosing the right waves.
Surfers should look for waves with the smoothest water in front of them.
The water between the wave and the beach should be nice and smooth and flat to make it easier to catch the main wave.

Tip Number Three: Stop Headling

The third tip advises beginners to stop paddling for waves.
Beginners should go into waist-deep water with an 8 or 9 foot soft top board.
The board should be pointed towards the beach with hands in the center of the board on either rail.
Wait until the white water hits the tail of the board and then jump onto the board and move forward towards the beach at the same time.
The surfboard should be 90 degrees perpendicular to the wave for proper timing.

Wave Catching Academy

The Wave Catching Academy is introduced as a solution for those frustrated with not catching waves.
The academy promises to teach surfers how to catch waves effortlessly in weeks, not years.
Registrations for the academy are open until the end of the week.
More details and booking information can be found on the website surfmastery.com

Transcription

Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. Today's episode is for the beginner surfer who is struggling to catch waves.

And for the longtime listener who's tuning in again, we've got a long-form interview coming up with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James, all about surfing philosophy, later this week. So make sure you're subscribed and keep an eye out for that one.

Let's get into today's episode. Let me tell you a quick story about Jason and then I'll go into three actionable tips.

So just before COVID hit, I was doing a lot of surf lessons and surf guiding in Southern California. And I got a call from Jason who had just discovered the show. And he'd heard an episode where I had said that after four weeks of surfing as a new surfer, you should be catching unbroken waves out the back. And he realized just how far behind the curve he was.

So he gave me a call. He was 42 and had been surfing almost daily for three months after having a few group lessons at his local surf school. And he said some days he just felt like giving up and that surfing just maybe wasn't something that he was physically capable of. But at the same time, he was hooked on surfing and felt extremely drawn to surfing and the ocean.

So we booked a session. I met Jason at a local beginner-friendly surf spot. And the first thing I do with a new client is just observe.

So I watched Jason flail around for about five minutes on his seven-foot soft top and I knew what was going on, so I waved him in. Basically, he had the complete wrong approach. It's a pretty typical story actually, especially for those who have started later in life. A few lessons at a local surf school that specializes in the tourist experience or teaching school kids, and then watching a few YouTube videos, and yeah, you can go pretty wrong.

As he was coming in, I went to the car and got the nine-foot soft top. He needed that. And as we sat down at the beach, I said, “Jason, mate, well done. Look, you're very confident in the water. But I got good news. And I've got best news.” He said, “Okay,” hesitantly. I said, “No, that means there's plenty of room for improvement. And the best news is that you've got a huge smile on your face despite all of that.”

So we had a quick chat about him sticking with a bigger board for a while. And then we talked about the difference between catching waves and matching waves. We just watched the surf for about five minutes and talked about wave selection. It's a big one actually. Most beginners aren't taught choosing the right whitewater. It's very important.

Then our goal for the last 40 minutes of the session was to catch as many waves as possible with as little effort, without paddling. So I went out with him in waist-deep water and gave him plenty of tips and talked him through the process. He said at the end he caught more waves in that 40 minutes than he'd caught in the last three weeks.

So let's break down the main things I taught Jason on that day into three tips that you can use.

Tip number one is to match waves, don't catch waves. This is a bit of a perspective change. The goal is not to catch waves. Waves are not running away from you. They are coming towards you. Another way to think of it is you've got to accept the invitation to dance. The language we use and the way we speak about and think about things shapes our perspectives and our beliefs, and therefore our actions.

So next time you go for a surf, think of it as dancing with the ocean. Match the wave. Don’t catch the wave.

Tip number two is whitewater needs flat water. This is about wave selection—choosing the right waves. This is not often talked about when it comes to beginners catching whitewater, but not all broken whitewater waves are equal. If you're struggling with consistency, chances are that you're choosing the wrong waves and you're not looking at the details of which waves you should be going for.

The key here is to look for the waves with the smoothest water in front of them. The water in between the wave and the beach needs to be nice and smooth and flat. The more boils or rips or little waves in front of the wave, or waves going across or backwashes there are, the harder it is to catch the main wave that you're looking at. Just like a mountain biker that’s looking at the details of where the front wheel is going, looking at the terrain.

So too should you be looking at the details of the water in front of you. So remember, whitewater needs flat water.

Tip number three. Stop paddling. That's right. If you are new to surfing, you need to stop paddling for waves. All you need to do is go into waist-deep water with an 8 or 9-foot soft top. No other board is appropriate for a beginner.

You point the board towards the beach, have your hands in the center of the board on either rail, wait until the whitewater hits the tail of your board, and then jump onto your board and forward towards the beach at the same time. That's it. That is all you need to do.

That is how you match the speed of the wave. Catching waves is all about timing. It is really important that your surfboard is 90 degrees to the wave. Not 89 degrees, not 91—90 degrees, perpendicular to the wave. Don't look at everyone else paddling. Don't let anyone else tell you you need to paddle. You don't.

If you need a visual on this, there is a link to a YouTube video in the show notes.

So to summarize: match waves, don’t catch waves. Whitewater needs flat water. And stop paddling.

Now if you are sick of the frustration and the shame that goes along with not catching waves, and you really want to learn how to catch waves finally, there is a formula to effortlessly catch waves in weeks, not years—without feeling like a kook. Guaranteed.

Join the Wave Catching Academy now. There is a link in the show notes to find out more details and to book. Registrations are open until the end of this week. There are links to that on the website at surfmastery.com.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. And if you want more surfing tips, including free PDFs and blogs, etc., surfmastery.com is the place to go.

And of course, there is the back catalog of timeless episodes of the Surf Mastery Podcast on Spotify, Apple, and Google, etc.

Thank you for tuning in. Until next time, keep surfing.

110: 3 Unconventional Surfing Tips To Catch More Waves and Learn Fast

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.

109 How to Catch More Waves and Abolish Surfing Shame Feb 27, 2025

Do you struggle to catch small waves, feel ashamed in the lineup, or question your surfing ability when no one else seems to miss a wave?

In this powerful solo episode, surf coach Michael Frampton shares the humbling (and transformative) story of how missing perfect waist-high waves drove him to uncover the real secrets of wave catching. Whether you're a beginner or intermediate surfer, this episode delivers exact, practical steps to break through shame, hesitation, and poor timing once and for all.

Learn how to catch waves without paddling using a timing drill that builds real ocean awareness.
Discover the mindset and movement hacks to reduce fear of falling and eliminate hesitation.
Understand how to overcome the fear of shame and finally progress—even if you're practicing alone.

Listen now to learn the techniques that helped Michael—and now his students—go from frustration to flow in record time, starting with the very next session.

Click HERE to register or find out more about the Wave Catching Academy

Tim Ferris - How I learned to Surf in 5 days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_c_FCTX0gk

Key Points

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast and its focus on helping surfers catch more waves with speed, style, and grace.
Announcement of a follow-up episode on catching waves and tips to achieve this, with a teaser for a future episode on surfing philosophy.
Discussion of Michael Frampton's personal experience with difficulty catching small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard and the resulting feelings of shame and frustration.
Description of an encounter with a skilled surfer who effortlessly caught small waves, leading to Michael seeking coaching and experiencing a breakthrough in his surfing.
Introduction of tip number one for catching waves: the importance of timing and the technique of jumping onto the board to match the speed of the wave without paddling.
Explanation of the drill for beginners to practice catching waves in waist-deep water without paddling, emphasizing the importance of timing the jump correctly.
Detailing the application of the timing technique for intermediate and advanced surfers, including the use of sprint paddles and the importance of practicing in white water.
Introduction of tip number two: overcoming the fear of getting hurt or held underwater by playing in the white water and becoming comfortable with falling.
Discussion of tip number three: overcoming the fear of failing and the associated shame by practicing in secluded areas away from other surfers.
Announcement of the Wave Catching Academy, a program designed to help surfers improve their wave-catching skills and overcome feelings of shame and frustration.

Outline

Introduction to the Podcast

Michael Frampton welcomes listeners back or new to the Surf Mastery Podcast, which aims to help surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain wisdom and confidence in the water.
This episode is a solo follow-up to a previous episode, focusing on expanding tips for catching waves.
An upcoming long-form interview on surfing philosophy is announced for next week.

Personal Experience with Catching Small Waves

Michael shares a personal experience of struggling to catch small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard despite living in an area with good waves most of the time.
Michael describes feeling disappointed and frustrated after failing to catch waves that were only waist high but perfectly shaped, with no wind and no other surfers around.
An older surfer, a former pro, effortlessly caught the same waves, inspiring Michael to seek coaching and achieve a breakthrough in catching small waves.

Tips for Catching Waves

Michael emphasizes the importance of timing, especially for catching smaller, softer waves on a shortboard.
For beginners, Michael recommends using an 8 or 9 foot soft top surfboard, standing in waist-deep water, and jumping onto the board as the white water is about to hit the tail to match the wave's speed without paddling.
Intermediate and advanced surfers should use their preferred mid-length or small wave shortboard and focus on timing two to four sprint paddles as the wave approaches, building on the beginner drill.
Michael advises against rushing and emphasizes the importance of patience, watching experienced surfers who wait for the right moment to execute a breaststroke kick combined with sprint paddles to glide into the wave.

Overcoming Fear of Getting Hurt or Held Underwater

Michael discusses the natural fear of getting hurt or held underwater and suggests playing in the white water to become comfortable with being tumbled and held under.
He recommends choosing a safe, sandy swimming beach with lifeguards, using a bodyboard, and wearing a wetsuit for flotation.
Michael stresses the importance of being a strong swimmer, capable of swimming 500 meters non-stop and 25 meters underwater, and suggests taking swimming lessons if necessary.

Overcoming the Fear of Failing

Michael addresses the emotional fear of failing and the associated shame, suggesting that practice should initially be done in a place away from other surfers to minimize the fear of looking bad.
He advises finding a spot where local surf schools conduct lessons, as these are usually sandy, flat, and easy waves for practice.
Michael emphasizes that the goal is to become confident and competent enough to surf with others despite the fear of shame, focusing on successfully catching waves rather than appearance.

Wave Catching Academy

Michael announces the opening of registrations for the Wave Catching Academy, designed to help surfers fast-track their progress in catching waves with confidence and competence.
The academy aims to transform hesitant surfers into those who understand positioning, wave reading, and how to catch any desired wave.
Registrations are open until the 7th of March, with the first 10 people to join receiving a free one-on-one session with Michael.

Transcription

Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host. Today's episode will be another solo episode. That is a follow-on from the episode that I released two days ago.

And we will expand on catching waves and give you some solid tips to do that. Next week we've got another long-form interview coming your way, all about surfing philosophy. So excited to release that one. So make sure you subscribe and stay tuned for that. In the last episode I was talking about a breakthrough I had in catching waves.

And for some reason it didn't really translate into catching small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard. Which was something that I really wanted to do. I was lucky enough to live in an area where the waves were mostly pretty good all the time. They were mostly head high. But every now and then a nice small swell would come through.

And I remember pulling up to the beach and the waves were small, only about waist high. But they were really nice. And it was no wind. Perfect shape to them. And there was no one else out. And I was so excited. And I grabbed my small wave shortboard and paddled out and spent at least 20 minutes. Just could not catch anything.

Any of these waves. Just could not figure it out. I just remember being so disappointed and frustrated and by now you've got a handful of people sitting in their cars watching, ready to come out surfing or decide whether to. So you're feeling shamed as well. And one of these surfers decided to come out and it was an older man in his 50s, on a board even smaller than mine, and he just paddled out and was just catching these waves like any other wave, just gliding into them with ease, going so fast, doing roundhouse cutbacks, just blowing my mind, and meanwhile, I couldn't even catch any of these waves, let alone stand up and surf one, and the contrast from them.

From going from being excited to go surfing to just feeling ashamed and disappointed and frustrated just was not only gut-wrenching, but it left me confused because it was like, how is this guy doing it? The waves are so soft and slow. How is he surfing a shortboard? And I was so determined to figure it out.

I ended up approaching him and he was, turns out he was a former pro, really friendly, and ended up getting some coaching from him, and it changed, had another breakthrough on small waves, because in surfing we often think it's quite simple, the wave comes towards the beach, and you paddle for it in the right part of the wave, and you glide in, and that's true for most waves, but when you start wanting to surf smaller waves.

On a shortboard, you've really got to get an eye in for the details and what I noticed he was doing, which was pointed out, was he was waiting a bit longer, and really letting the white water hit him, which gave him enough momentum to get going on the wave, and if you want to surf a broad variety of wave shapes and sizes, you need to be far more versatile and adaptable than you think.

And, sometimes you really need to be able to let the whitewater hit you and come from behind the section with speed to get going on small waves. And once you learn that skill, it actually expands the takeoff zone for you. If you mistime a wave and the wave hits you, you can actually still come around the section.

So learning to catch these smaller, softer waves helped me in all types of waves, and the drill that this surf coach got me to do is a really simple one, and this is it—tip number one: timing. I'll firstly describe this tip in a beginner-friendly version, and then I'll elaborate into how an intermediate or even advanced surfer can utilize it.

So the key here is to stop paddling for waves. That's right. If you're a beginner, first of all, you need to be on the right surfboard. It needs to be an 8 or a 9-foot soft top, depending on your height and weight. And no other surfboard is appropriate for a beginner. Stay away from places like First Point, Malibu.

Go to a beach where you see surf schools take their groups of 50 tourists. That's the beach you want to practice this drill. And what you want to do is you want to stand in waist-deep water, with your board facing towards the beach, hands in the middle of the board, holding each rail, and then wait. Wait until the white water is just about to hit the tail of your board, and then you jump.

Onto your board and forward to match the speed of the wave at the same time. And you land in your paddling position, and that jump forward has allowed you to match the speed of the wave. And that's it—no paddling necessary. The focus here is getting the timing of the jump. Don't even worry about standing up at this stage. For beginners, you're just looking to catch the wave with good timing without paddling.

Play around with it. Wait until the wave has passed the tail of your board and is about to hit you, and then try it. Just play around with the timing. Get really comfortable with catching waves in waist-high water without paddling.

For the intermediate and advanced surfers that are struggling to catch small waves, the drill is exactly the same. It's just the type of surfboard you'll be using. So for an intermediate surfer, you might be on a fiberglass mid-length or your favorite sort of mid-size soft top, and for your advanced surfer, just get on your small wave shortboard.

But the drill is the same. No paddling. Get the timing right. So how does this apply to catching unbroken waves for the intermediate and advanced surfer? When you're sitting on your surfboard and a small wave is approaching, you want to time two to four sprint paddles just as the wave is about to hit you.

And if you've practiced the drill, as I mentioned, you'll be used to popping up in the whitewater and maintaining speed from that push. Because actually popping up and riding the wave in the turbulence of that whitewater is a lot harder than you think. And it's a skill that you might not have practiced in a while.

You would have practiced it a lot when you were learning, but it's good to go back. So not only are you practicing catching the wave in the whitewater, but you're also going to practice popping up and surfing those beginner waves. One of the most common mistakes at all levels is rushing. I see too many surfers just paddling frantically rather than being patient and timing some good sprint paddles.

Watch really experienced surfers when they're in the right spot. They don't rush. They wait for the wave to engulf the back of the board, and then they execute like a breaststroke kick with their legs, combined with a couple of sprint paddles, and the board's buoyancy kind of pops them forward like a cork in water, and they just glide into the wave effortlessly.

Sometimes a lot of the paddling for the wave surfers do is actually to get in the right position to be able to do that. And by no means am I saying don't paddle hard for waves. In fact, you need to be a strong paddler that can paddle hard for waves. The first step is to master the timing in broken whitewater waves.

Tip number two would be overcoming the fear of getting hurt or held underwater. Now, this fear will never go away completely. It’s natural. You should be cautious about getting hurt or drowning. But you can prepare for it so that it’s not so overwhelming. The drill here is just to simply play in the whitewater.

Just like kids at the beach. They love playing in the shore break, getting hit, tumbled around. They love feeling the power of the ocean. You should get comfortable with getting tumbled in the shore break, getting held under, and having sand go everywhere. And if this makes you feel uncomfortable, you have to spend time doing this.

I remember Tim Ferriss did a TV series called The Tim Ferriss Experiment, where he tried to learn a bunch of skills as fast as possible by working with experts intensively for five days. He did golf, drumming, dancing, and surfing was one of them. And he got Laird Hamilton, and the first thing that Laird got him to do was to play in the whitewater.

He had to get rid of that fear of being held under and rolled around. Because if you're afraid of what happens when you fall off or make a mistake, you simply can't be present. I strongly recommend you go and watch that episode. It's free on YouTube now. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes.

And I used to teach adult skateboarding as well, and the first thing that we'd learn is to fall safely on the grass. And then we'd progress to learning how to fall and slide safely with all the gear on. And only then can they be present enough to learn how to skate. Kids don't have this fear anywhere near as much because they're made of rubber and naivety, but you simply cannot learn anything without falling.

Prepare and minimize the fear of falling. Choose a safe, sandy swimming beach where there are lifeguards and practice this. You can get a bodyboard as well, play around. Wear a wetsuit; it helps with flotation. A tip that goes along with this one is you need to be a strong swimmer.

You should be able to swim 500 meters non-stop and 25 meters underwater. So if you can't do those two things, I highly recommend just going and getting some swimming lessons.

Tip number three is overcoming the fear of failing. Now, we just covered the physical fear of falling, but now we're talking about the emotional fear of failing. And the fear of failure is tied to shame. The fear of looking bad in front of others. What's the solution? Practice tip one and two in a place where other surfers aren't.

As I mentioned in tip one, stay out of the way. If you're a beginner, there's no need to go to a surf break where good surfers are. You can go to any swimming beach out of the way and find your own spot away from people and practice these drills. Find out where the local surf school takes their groups and does lessons and stay around there somewhere.

There are always nice, sandy, flat, easy waves to practice this sort of stuff in. The fear of shame—it's never going to go away completely. The goal here is to get to a point where you feel confident and competent enough to surf with other surfers despite the shame, and you should be able to focus on successfully catching the wave, not on how you look.

Because even when you go to a place where good surfers aren’t, the fear of failure is still going to come up. There’s a certain amount of that you're just going to have to push through until your skills improve. The most important thing is just stay safe, stay out of the way, and if the desire to get better is stronger than your fear of failure, you’ll put the hours in.

Because surfing is hard. It takes time. There’s no way around that. But these three tips will help you to get there fastest.

So to summarize: you’re going to practice the timing by catching whitewater waves in waist-high water without paddling. You’re going to play around in the shore break and get used to what happens when you fall, as well as making sure that you’re a strong swimmer and you’re comfortable being underwater.

And you’re going to practice these drills away from surf breaks where other surfers are watching and judging. And you’re going to make sure that you’re doing it at the right spot.

Now if you're truly serious about learning the art of catching waves and overcoming the shame, the frustration, and the disappointment of missing waves and watching others, then I’ve got good news for you.

Registrations are open for the Wave Catching Academy, which starts up very soon. There is no need for you to spend the years that I spent guessing, overthinking, and struggling to figure these things out on your own. And that’s why I created the Wave Catching Academy—so you can fast-track your progress.

You’ll go from being hesitant and ignored in the lineup to being someone that catches waves with confidence and competence. No more getting dropped in on. No more getting snaked. You’ll understand positioning and how to read waves, and of course, how to catch any wave that you like.

Registrations are open until the 7th of March, but numbers are limited as well, so get in quick. The first 10 people who join will also get a free one-on-one session with me.

So if you're serious about transforming your surfing and finally feeling like a surfer instead of a kook, it starts with learning how to catch waves. So click the link in the description or the show notes, or go to surfmastery.com and join the Wave Catching Academy.

Hope to see you there, and until next week, keep surfing.

109 How to Catch More Waves and Abolish Surfing Shame

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.

108 Catching Waves - The Foundation Of Good Surfing Feb 25, 2025

Is your biggest frustration in surfing simply not catching enough waves? You’re not alone—and it’s more fixable than you think.

In this solo episode, surf coach Michael Frampton shares the raw truth behind why catching waves is the foundation of great surfing—and how most people are doing it wrong. From surf anxiety to breakthroughs, this episode is packed with personal lessons, powerful mindset shifts, and the practical steps that changed everything for him.

Learn why catching waves is 80% positioning and confidence—and how to master both.
Discover how small tweaks in your technique and body language lead to more waves and more respect in the lineup.
Understand how even one key insight can unlock barreling waves, faster surfing, and a more joyful experience in the water.

Hit play now to learn the exact steps Michael used to transform from anxious surfer to confident charger—and how you can do the same with less time and effort than you think.

https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1

https://surfmastery.com

For more surfing tips visit www.surfmastery.com

Key Points

Introduction of the Surf Mastery Podcast and the addition of weekly episodes focusing on various surfing topics.
Discussion on the difficulty of catching waves and the importance of reading the ocean and positioning correctly.
Personal anecdote about Michael's experience of moving to the east coast of Australia, realizing his below-average surfing skills, and the resulting anxiety.
Explanation of the competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing, where confident and competent surfers catch more waves.
Story of Michael's encounter with an 11-year-old surfer who inspired him to improve his own surfing skills.
Michael's journey of seeking surf coaching, undergoing video analysis, and discovering the key to catching waves.
The transformation in Michael's surfing experience after gaining confidence and improving his techniques.
Introduction of the Wave Catching Academy, a program designed to help surfers catch waves with confidence and skill.
Offer of a free one-on-one session with video analysis for the next 10 people who join the Wave Catching Academy.

Outline

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast

Michael welcomes listeners back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, a platform aimed at helping surfers improve their skills and enjoy surfing more.
The podcast format includes long-form interviews conducted monthly, with the addition of weekly episodes.
This particular episode focuses on the topic of catching waves, which Michael describes as the hardest part of surfing.

Personal Experience with Surfing

Michael shares a personal anecdote about moving to the east coast of Australia, where the waves were consistently good and the level of surfing was high.
Despite having surfed for 15 years and considering themselves a good surfer, Michael felt below average in this new environment.
The feelings of shame and embarrassment led to crippling surfing anxiety, affecting body language and performance.

Competence and Confidence in Surfing

There is a competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing where confident and competent surfers catch more waves.
Waves are a limited resource, and to get a share, one must know how to catch them.
Good surfers can sense fear and uncertainty, leading to being 'snaked' or dropped in on.

Turning Point in Surfing

Michael recounts a specific incident where an 11-year-old surfer outperformed them at a barreling reef wave called the Slack.
This experience served as a rock bottom moment, inspiring Michael to seek surf coaching and video analysis.
Through coaching, Michael identified what they were doing wrong and developed strategies to correct it, leading to rapid improvement.

Impact of Improved Surfing Skills

As Michael's skills and confidence improved, their body language changed, leading to more respect from other surfers and catching more waves.
Michael started surfing bigger, faster waves and getting barreled, which significantly enhanced their surfing experience.
This transformation inspired Michael to become a surf coach.

Importance of Catching Waves

Catching the wave with good timing is essential for surfing the entire wave with good timing.
Simple realizations can lead to significant breakthroughs in surfing ability and open up new types of waves to surf.

Frustrations of Inexperienced Surfers

Michael empathizes with surfers who feel ashamed of their surfing abilities and struggle to catch waves.
There is a sense of frustration when less experienced surfers seem to know what they are doing.

Simplicity of Catching Waves

Michael believes that catching lots of waves and enjoying surfing is simpler than commonly thought.
Much of the advice available online is overcomplicated and incorrect.
Simple fixes, when identified correctly, can make a significant difference.

Wave Catching Academy

Michael has condensed the tips and strategies learned over the years into a program called the Wave Catching Academy.
The program aims to help surfers become confident, catch waves effortlessly, and surf with speed and style within 90 days or as little as 14 days.
The first 10 people to join will receive a free one-on-one session with video analysis.
Interested individuals can join by clicking the link in the description or visiting surfmastery.com.

Transcription

Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. This is a podcast that helps surfers to not only be better surfers, but to enjoy surfing more, to get more out of surfing, to become wiser surfers. The format for this podcast has mostly been long-form interviews at around about a monthly basis, and that will continue, but we're going to add some weekly episodes in the mix as well. This episode in particular is about catching waves. Catching waves is—I'd say—the hardest part of surfing.

Like, to catch the wave in the right spot, pop up in the right position on the wave—no matter what level of surfer you are—that's always the hardest part. It's like reading the ocean and getting in the right spot and catching the wave. I remember when I first moved to the east coast of Australia, and it was the first time that I'd lived in a place where the waves were good, like really good. Consistently good. And the level of surfing was right up there. The surfers were so good, and at this point in my life, I'd been surfing for, yeah, 15 years. I thought I was a good surfer, but, you know, I was a late starter—I didn’t start till I was 17—and I was 100% self-taught, but I loved surfing so much.

But as soon as I lived in this area, which was riddled with good waves and good surfers, I quickly realized just how below average I was. And gosh, I remember the feelings of shame and embarrassment were just so overwhelming. It gave me crippling surfing anxiety every time I surfed. Gosh, it would affect my body language. I would come across as very unconfident and actually surf below my own surfing abilities. Because good surfers, they can smell that fear and that uncertainty. And they just snake you, and they drop in on you and... it's fair enough too. There's a competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing. Confident and competent surfers do catch more waves. Waves are a limited resource, you know, and if you want to get your share, then... you better know how, and you better learn.

I remember surfing the Slack, like a barreling reef wave on a small day. And it's a wave that I'd watched for six months before even surfing it once. And it was so intimidating. And then I'd been surfing it every day for about three months. And I was out there by myself one day—it was in the middle of the day, was only about three foot—and I was sitting on the shoulder dodging the barrel. And I was about 34 years old and surfing for 16 years. And this 11-year-old kid from out of town paddled out. He'd never surfed the place. And he was just taking off deep under the lip and just playing with it, getting these crazy barrels. And... I just felt like giving up. Instead, I didn’t. I let it inspire me, and I was like, what is he doing? What does he see in the wave that I'm missing? I had to find out.

So it was definitely like a rock bottom point in my surfing life. Back then—this was like 2016—surf coaching definitely was not cool back then, but there were plenty of surf coaches around. And I got some surf coaching done. I actually had multiple lessons from a bunch of different surf coaches just to get some different perspectives and got some video analysis done, and finally something clicked, and I knew what I was doing wrong. I had strategies that I needed to correct and stuff to work on. And I just started catching my waves, started taking off deeper, and just started to improve real quickly. And everything stacked upon each other because as I sort of became more confident and more self-aware, my body language changed. I was catching more waves. Partly because I knew what I was doing, I was reading the ocean better and had the right perspectives and techniques, but it just affected my body language and my confidence in the water.

So good surfers weren't second guessing my ability and snaking me, and they were actually starting to sort of let me take my turn. Once I discovered the secret to catching waves, it sparked a whole different journey in my surfing progression and, more importantly, like my experience of surfing. I started surfing bigger waves, faster waves. I was getting barreled. And all simply just because of a few simple realizations that became the foundation for not only my own surfing, but inspired me to become a surf coach. Because surfing is kind of like singing. If you don't hit that first note, then the rest of the song is off.

So catching the wave with good timing is essential for surfing the entire wave with good timing.

So sometimes it just takes a couple of little things, if they're the right things, and it can change everything. Like I broke through a huge plateau in my ability, and it just opened up, you know, the types of waves I could surf. I ended up booking a trip to Indo with confidence. Something I hadn't done before. And, cause you know, there is nothing more frustrating than being a surfer and just feeling ashamed of the way you surf, and not being able to catch waves, and just having less experienced surfers around you just knowing what they're doing. That's the worst feeling, and I know that firsthand. Catching lots of waves and really fully enjoying surfing is so much simpler than we think. I find a lot of the advice out there on the YouTube videos and stuff is actually—they're just overcomplicated. It's wrong. Because when I first started taking surf coaching lessons, I was shocked at how simple the fixes were, really. And that's, you know, because I'd spent years overthinking and struggling to figure things out on my own. All I needed was a bit of guidance, you know. I don't want you to. There's no need to waste years stuck in that same cycle that I was stuck in. Those simple concepts I learned back then that became the foundation of the next part of my surfing journey—they've been built upon and simplified since then because I've had... Not only have I been on multiple surf trips, I've used a lot more different coaches from around the world, and I've been coaching hundreds of people along the way since then. And 10 years on, I've simplified those tips and condensed them into a nice simple program called the Wave Catching Academy. And it's a program that I wish I had back then.

So if you're struggling to catch waves and you're feeling frustrated and shame when you go surfing, then this program is for you. Because in less than 90 days, in as little as 14 days, you can become a confident surfer who gets respect, catches waves effortlessly, and surfs with speed and style. No more hesitating. You know how to position yourself, how to read the waves properly, and catch them with confidence. There'll be no more getting snaked or dropped in on. You'll surf with competent and confident body language and skills that will signal that you know what you're doing. And you get more waves. And for the next 10 people that join, I'll give you a free one-on-one session where we can do some video analysis—absolutely free.

So if you're serious about transforming your surfing and finally feeling like a surfer instead of a kook, then click the link in the description or go to surfmastery.com to join the Wave Catching Academy. Spots are limited. So click the link now.

108 Catching Waves - The Foundation of Good Surfing

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer

**107 The Parallels of Surfing and Golf: Tiffany Joh’s Insights on Golf, Surfing, and Finding Flow** Feb 11, 2025

*What can surfing teach us about golf? - What can golf teach us about surfing? How does a former LPGA pro balance technique with pure joy in both sports?*
Whether you're chasing consistency in golf, mastering the perfect wave, or just trying to stay calm under pressure, Tiffany Joh’s story offers a fresh perspective on finding balance between intensity and flow. As a retired LPGA pro-turned-surfing enthusiast and national golf coach, Tiffany reveals surprising connections between the worlds of golf, surfing, and music, along with how mindset and play can fuel long-term success.
In this episode, you'll discover:
**The surprising parallels between surfing and golf** and how these lessons can improve performance in both.
**Mindset secrets** for managing pressure and staying in the zone during competition.
**Why consistency trumps intensity**—and how 20-minute sessions might be the key to progress in any skill.
Listen now to learn how Tiffany Joh’s journey from pro golf to surfing can inspire you to embrace consistency, mindset mastery, and the joy of lifelong learning.
**Notable Quotes:**
*"The best way to improve is to be really consistent. I'd take 20 minutes every day over six hours on the weekend."*
*"Golf and surfing both require a balance between technique and feel—you work on your craft like it’s the most important thing, but compete like it doesn’t matter."*
*"Surfers and golfers attract the same personalities. Both can be super personal or really social, depending on what you’re looking for."*
*"In golf, you never wait for perfection before stepping into competition—just go with what you have and make it work."*
*"Pressure is good. You’ve practiced it. You’ve been here before. Now just swing."*
**Key Points**
Tiffany grew up in San Diego and started playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's iconic win at the 1998 US Women's Open.
Tiffany started surfing at age 24 or 25 during her off-season from professional golf.
Tiffany sees parallels between surfing and golf in terms of the balance between technique and feel, and the pursuit of something difficult.
Tiffany's musical background initially hindered her golf development due to the perfectionist mindset in music.
Tiffany emphasizes the importance of consistency over intensity in both surfing and golf for improvement.
Tiffany uses visualization techniques and focuses on her target to improve her putting in golf.
Tiffany prefers to have a limited number of surfboards (3) and golf clubs, replacing them selectively based on needs.
Tiffany has not been to a wave pool yet but is open to trying it despite potential pressure.
**Outline**
**Tiffany's Golf Career**
Tiffany grew up in San Diego and began playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's win at the 1998 US Women's Open.
Their father, a professor at San Diego State University, enrolled them in a free junior golf program where they became increasingly competitive.
They played for UCLA during college and qualified for the professional tour after graduating, spending 11 years on the LPGA.
After retiring in July 2021, they transitioned to coaching, starting with a Division 2 program in San Diego before moving to USC, and recently took a position as a coach for the US national team.
**Introduction to Surfing**
Tiffany started surfing relatively late, around age 24-25, during a surf trip to Nicaragua with Holly Beck, leaving their golf clubs behind.
Upon returning from the trip, they got a board and began surfing consistently, often doing dawn patrol sessions before afternoon golf practice.
This routine of combining surfing and golf became part of their yearly schedule, frequently taking surf trips after the golf season ended.
**Similarities Between Golf and Surfing**
Both sports can be frustrating due to the effort required versus the results achieved.
Consistency is key in both sports, with frequent short sessions being more beneficial than occasional long ones.
Both require a balance between technique and feel, with the ability to adapt to changing conditions.
Golf and surfing can be either introspective and personal or highly social, depending on the individual's mood and goals.
Both involve a lot of waiting or downtime between moments of action.
Trying too hard often leads to worse performance in both sports, emphasizing the importance of relaxation and flow.
**Coaching Philosophy**
As a golf coach, Tiffany focuses less on technique and more on mental aspects, course management, and helping players handle tournament-day emotions.
They emphasize the importance of practicing under pressure to prepare for real competition scenarios.
Drills that push players to the edge of frustration are used to help them learn to manage emotions and make adjustments under pressure.
**Impact of Surfing on Golf Approach**
Learning to surf helped Tiffany develop a more relaxed approach to golf.
Being a beginner in surfing and enjoying it despite poor performance helped maintain perspective in their professional golf career.
The casual approach to surfing positively influenced their golf game, reminding them to enjoy the process even when not performing at their best.
**Staying Connected to the Target**
In both golf and surfing, staying connected to the target is emphasized.
In golf, focusing beyond the ball and looking at a spot slightly in front while putting helps maintain awareness of the overall goal rather than getting too focused on technique.
Similarly, in surfing, looking ahead at the wave rather than down at the board is important.
**Equipment Preferences**
Throughout their golf career, Tiffany has owned numerous sets of clubs, often replacing individual clubs based on course conditions or new technology.
Driver technology changes rapidly, making it beneficial to use the latest models.
In contrast, their approach to surfboards is much simpler, owning only three boards for different conditions, mirroring their advice to keep surfing equipment simple, especially for beginners.
**Fears and Cautionary Experiences**
In golf, Tiffany's biggest fear is accidentally hitting a spectator or volunteer with a golf ball.
In surfing, their most frightening experience was getting tangled in a lobster trap rope while surfing near a cliff in Mexico, which taught them to be more cautious about ocean conditions.
**Advice for Surfers**
Key advice for surfers is to prioritize consistency over intensity.
Frequent, short sessions (20-30 minutes) are recommended rather than infrequent long sessions, leading to steady improvement and greater enjoyment of the sport.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Hello! How are you? Sorry, I think we just had some technical problems. I saw that you had joined the meeting, and then—anyway, we're here now. Cool. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this. First of all, I'm super stoked! Cool, let me just get the recording going. Okay, and you've got AirPods in—awesome. All right.
Okay, so can we start? Would you be able to do a little bit of a self-introduction? I think, you know, your background as an athlete and as a coach—and then we'll get into the surfing stuff.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, sure!
So, I grew up in San Diego, which is a great surf town. Unfortunately, I did not surf growing up. I think I lived just far enough inland—about half an hour—that I was too lazy to make it all the way to the beach.
I actually grew up playing a lot of instruments and wasn’t really much of an athlete. But in 1998, a woman named Se Ri Pak from South Korea won the U.S. Women's Open in iconic fashion. On the last hole, her ball almost went into the water, and she took off her socks and shoes, waded into the water, and ended up winning in a playoff.
Pretty much the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t know much about golf, and I was only 12 at the time. The only reason our family was even watching was that this was the first time we had seen a South Korean female athlete on TV. It was incredibly inspiring for us as a people.
So, the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t really know anything about golf, but my dad was a professor at San Diego State University. There was a free junior golf program right next to campus, and I think in his mind, he thought, "Perfect. This is free babysitting. I can just drop off my kid and not worry about it during the summer."
That’s pretty much what he did, and I ended up getting more competitive through that free program. Eventually, I got recruited by a couple of colleges and ended up playing for UCLA. After I graduated, I qualified for the pro tour and played on the LPGA for 11 years.
I retired in July of 2021, and the very next week, I started an assistant coaching position at a Division II program in North County, San Diego. Over the past couple of years, I’ve been working at USC, which is ironic since it’s a big-time rival of UCLA.
Just this past month, I took on a new role as a coach for the U.S. national team, which is my new gig now.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh wow that's an impressive athletic background and resume wow and coaching now that's awesome okay so so when did thanks for that what when did surfing come into the picture?
**Tiffany Joh**
So it's actually a really interesting story so I don't know if you're super familiar with you know the way the LPGA tour works but there's actually like a developmental tour kind of like the equivalent of the QS going into the world like the championship tour so straight out of college I actually played on it's called the Epson tour so I played on the Epson tour for like a year and then ended up kind of getting like partial status on the LPGA tour so I was kind of jumping back and forth and and in my mind it's like the best
way to mentally play your first year of professional golf because like you're just so grateful to be playing any given week, right?
So I would go play in these, you know, developmental tour events and I would play well and then it would just like translate automatically to the very next week when I played on like the big tour.
So I ended up playing really well, playing my way to better status and then my second year I had full status and I played awful like missed every single cut like did horrible and by the end of the year so there's two ways to qualify to get your LPGA tour card.
One way is to spend a year on that developmental tour and the top 10 ranked players at the very end of the year get their tour card.
The other way is to go to Q school which is this like gnarly two week long high pressure tournament and by the end of it 20 women get their cards for the following year.
So knowing that I had pretty much played my way into a position where I was going to have to go.
back to Q-School. I think I intuitively knew that I was super burnt out from the season and really discouraged.
So I actually, at the very end of the season before I had to go to Q-School, I had like two months before I had to start getting ready for it.
I actually booked this surf trip with Paul Lee Beck, who's another guest that you had on your show. And so that was down in Nicaragua.
And so I flew down there, like left the club at home. There's no golfers down there anyway. And I ended up just like learning down there.
And then I came back and right away got aboard and started going pretty consistently in the morning, like driving the half hour to the beach.
And then I got into this great routine where I would go and do dump patrol. I didn't know enough about like reading the conditions.
I just kind of paddled out no matter what. And then I would come home, like eat some lunch. And then I would go practicing the afternoon.
And then a couple of months after I went back to Q-School, ended up breathing through got second. and I think ever since then it's been kind of part of my yearly routine that after the season is over when we have some time, I just go do some epic, I call it a treat to yourself, surf trip somewhere.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. So how old were you when you started surfing?
**Tiffany Joh**
So I had to have there in my last year, I was probably 24, 25.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep, okay. Do you think having that background as a professional athlete and golfer helped you to learn surfing faster than others?
**Tiffany Joh**
I don't know if there were any like actual like direct ways that it translated, but I think there's something to be said for pursuing something that's really hard and really difficult to do.
I definitely think that I haven't played a ton of other sports, but surfing and golf both have to be quite frustrating in terms of the energy and you know the effort that
put in and what you actually get out of it. So I think it's kind of that pursuit of something really difficult.
So I do think that maybe that mindset really translated to help me maybe improve little bit faster than a normal person.
**Michael Frampton**
So maybe you got over some of the frustrations of surfing faster than others because it's similar in golf.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, and I think there's something about maybe this is for for all hobbies or sports, but like, you know, I do think that the best way to improve is to be really consistent and both surfing and golf.
Like, you know, I'll take a person who's paddling out for 20, 30 minutes every day over the person that every other weekend is putting like six hours in the water.
Like, there's something, I think, I don't know if it's something with like your brain, but something important that happens in between all these sessions.
So it was interesting that the way that I approached surfing was really similar to the way that I approached
I'm a big fan of like a bunch of mini sessions, so, you know, even when I was playing professionally, I would like break up my session or my practice sessions into like three or four throughout the day and I would go do something and come back because there's something about that back and forth that helped me kind of process something.
**Michael Frampton**
Are you a golf nerd? Like did you really nerd out about technique and get multiple coaches and dive right into it?
**Tiffany Joh**
You know, I'm not and I've never been. I think one of the best, one of the funniest stories, there was one offseason where I had to get my clubs with regrets.
So I just went to just some random pro shop in the area and I brought in my clubs and the guys and they were so excited and I was what's the kick point on this?
What's, what's, you know, the shaft flex, I don't know, it was purple and I liked it, but which is funny because that's exactly how I am with surfing whenever we go to beach and people are like, oh, what's the swell direction?
Like, what's the wind? I'm like, I don't know how it looks wet.
**Michael Frampton**
So what's your how would you describe your role as a golf coach? Are you not focused on the technique and stuff so much?
**Tiffany Joh**
Is it more about the head game or? Yeah, I think, you know, at the college level, especially this new generation of golfer, I mean, they've been getting instruction, they've been doing fitness training since they were like eight, nine years old, and they are so polished by the time they get to us that a lot of what we do is kind of like helping them manage emotions on tournament day, kind of helping them with some course management, like, you know, plotting their way through the course.
Just, you know, like, you know, all of like the little things, and I think the little details that at this level actually make a bigger difference.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, so just sort of eliciting them to get into the zone at the start of the round.
**Tiffany Joh**
Great.
**Michael Frampton**
And do you use those tools yourself, if the surface is particularly challenging and you're feeling the pressure or?
**Tiffany Joh**
No, I mean, honestly, I'm not really good enough to feel any pressure out in the water. think any time I get out there and regardless of what happens or how many times I go over the fault or whatever it's in me, I'm just so grateful to be out there.
So I think I actually do think in a lot of ways, when I started surfing, it really helped my mind set in golf at a professional level.
You're always going to take things a little bit too seriously, but it was kind of refreshing to go do this thing that I was horrible at and still enjoy doing it.
It's difficult being a retired professional golfer now because I still have these really high expectations, but I don't put in the time and the work to really meet those expectations.
So pretty much every time I go out there, I'm pretty frustrated, but I think with surfing, I'm always so happy to be out in the water that it was a really great thing to try to translate into my golf game.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. So your casual approach to surfing helped you took some of that into your golf?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, absolutely. I think surfing in golfing there's so many parallel, but one of them is, you know, oftentimes the harder you try, like the worse it gets, you know, the more pressure you put into something, like the less, I don't know, flow you have or what have you.
So sometimes it's with golf, I, one of my coaches and those really young said the secret is to work on your craft.
Like, it's the most important thing in the world, but to compete like nothing matters.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, so all of the hard work is done at the driving range, not when you're actually playing, is that what you mean by that?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, and I think, you know, or on the putting green or the chipping green, and I think when you, a lot of the times when we're trying to figure out what thrills or tests or games we're doing in practice, a lot of it is to just push ourselves to like the very edge of the right?
Not make it so difficult that or so impossible to complete that you quit, but to really like push you to the edge of being really frustrated so that when you get onto the golf course, you're almost recreating that feeling and you know how to deal with it because you've practiced that before.
So in a lot of ways, you know, when people try to do, you know, putting drills or something and it's like a must make situation, they try to make it so there's as much pressure on themselves as possible.
So when they come down to the last hole. a U.S. Open and they have to make a six footer to win or whatever.
They're like, all these emotions that I'm feeling, like I've practiced this and I've been here before and I know the appropriate adjustments to make.
**Michael Frampton**
So you're giving yourself confidence in the practice?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah. I think everyone under pressure has some kind of tendency, right? So for me, I'm a very fast paced energetic person.
So, if I'm feeling nervous, I'll start walking fast, I'll start talking fast, start speaking fast. And in a lot of ways, that starts to mess up my rhythm.
So in practice, if I put myself under pressure and I practice consciously trying to slow myself down just to counteract, you know, how fast I go, then when I'm under pressure in a tournament, I can be like, all right, I know what I do, I know what my tendency is, like, this is how I'm going to adjust.
**Michael Frampton**
You mentioned music and I actually, I saw on your Instagram a clip of you, but singing and playing guitar.
It sounded amazing by the way. sing beautifully. Do you see parallels between music and golf and surfing?
**Tiffany Joh**
A little bit. I think actually in a lot of ways, my music go background kind of hindered my golfing development just because...
Yeah, I think there's this aspect of music that's like... So I played like in the marching band. was a concert pianist and played the violin at the little kid and a lot of it was like, I'm gonna perfect this and then once it's perfect, I'm gonna perform, right?
But a lot of golf and I think what I see with a lot of, you know, this newer generation is...
They wait for things to be perfect before they take it to a turn of it. But like, your golf is never gonna be perfect.
Like, you know, the tiger was the best player in the world. world and he wasn't even perfect. He didn't play a perfect round of golf.
So there's kind of this attitude with I think all athletes need to have. And it's, I'm just going to go out with whatever I have.
And I'm going to make it work. And I think it's a really difficult transition when you come from a musical background.
So when I was a little kid, Yo-Yo Ma had this practice routine where, you know, within a piece of musical composition, there's all these measures.
So he used to have this, he called it like a five quarter drill. So he would play the first measure, and then he would move a quarter over.
And every time he played it perfectly, he would move a quarter over. But if he messed up once out of the five, he would move them all back.
And then he would play the first and second measure together, first and second, third measure together until he was playing through the entire composition five times in a row, perfect, which is insane.
It must have taken forever. But that's kind of the mentality you kind of, you learn to have a music, whereas sometimes
I think with like their thing and golf, it's so condition dependent and it's never going to be exactly the way that you envision it and you kind of need to learn how to make adjustments on the fly and be okay with like nexting up and recovering.
So I do think sometimes that like in a lot of ways they're different. Now I do think that all of those things, all three of those things require a lot of practice and that kind of is beneficial and anything that you end up doing.
**Michael Frampton**
I guess with music makes me think you were referencing a particular piece of music, not just music in general.
And whereas I guess golf and surfing in particular is more like a jam session, you're not going into it with a particular way of playing or a song to play.
You're just going in to be in tune with the way that the wind is on the course or the way that
it's conditions I was surfing.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, like, I think most athletics is probably more like improvisational, right? So, um, but, and I think this was maybe another parallel, I think, um, a lot.
So I don't, I came from like a classical background. So everything was like, you just go buy the book, you go buy like whatever the composer wrote for you.
But I do remember when I was in third grade, I met this kid from Kentucky who taught himself like jazz improvisational piano and it was so impressive.
But he was telling me like, you put in all this work on the fundamentals, you learn all the scales, you learn all the like different chords.
So, and then you earn the like kind of the privilege of having fun as you get to improvise. So I thought that was like a really cool thing because I think like, I definitely see the same thing with surfing.
Like, I don't know a ton of maneuvers, but when I see someone who's really good and they, you know, have their floater that comes back and everything.
They put in a lot of work to get their fundamentals down so that when they go out, they can have a ton of fun and be like very like improvisational and water.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, I've always thought surfing is kind of like improvisation or improvisational music, whereas, you know, if you wanted to play that way, it's still important for you to practice your scales and do your ear training and understand your instrument and etc.
But the reason you're doing that strict practice is so that you can jam and improvise not necessarily to perform a piece perfectly and that's where I sort of maybe see the analogy between music and surfing.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, I agree.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, because most people don't approach it that way, but I think you see that in this swing and... All the different clubs at the driving range etc.
So that when they do go out and play on the course They don't have to necessarily think about it.
They just play the game right sure You just you mentioned that there were a lot of parallels between surfing and golf What what what comes to mind and why did you say that?
**Tiffany Joh**
I think just like the Exactly kind of along the lines of what we're talking about this like balance of like technique, but then also like feel right so in a lot of mental coaches and golf talk about like when you should be working on technical things and when you should just go completely on feel and and the consensus is that Before like you know in the week leading up to a tournament There's a certain line and everyone is maybe a little bit different where you like
work really hard on your technique, but at a certain point, once you're in the midst of competition, you kind of throw it out the window and you kind of just have to react.
It is actually, I mean, so I think I'd only been searching for maybe two or three years and I was just learning to like how the waves would go down the line, but I was super into it.
And I had a friend that played on floor with me who came down to San Diego to visit all the club manufacturers in the area and then we went and played Tory Pines and afterwards, I kind of looked, know, La Hoya is right there and I'm like, she was kind of fun.
do you mind before we get French if I just have a lot for like 20 minutes? And she's like, yeah, I'll just sit here and watch.
And I got out of water and I was like, well, you know, what'd you think? She was like, you know, you love surfing, you invest so much time and money and energy and I just, I kind of thought you'd feel a little bit better.
It was like, such a dagger to the heart, but my response was, Imagine if, you know, someone was trying to learn how to hit a golf ball for the first time, but every time they wanted to hit it, they had to sprint from 40 yards away, take six other people, and then like the ball might move somewhere else.
imagine how long it would take to like get better, because you don't have any opportunity to like in the rain, any type of muscle memory or whatever.
So in my mind, I was like, that's what surfing feels like to me. feels like I'm just paddling around, just like trying to get an opportunity to get all to get to my feet.
And you know, in a couple of years later, we played an LPG event in Hawaii, got my tape back, because we paddled out to like 10 news or something in Waikiki, she kind of got for a firsthand glimpse of how hard it was to win at a surf, but I do think that like it's similar in that respect, right?
You almost do, you have to like earn your, your, like, right? to things and I think golf at least is semi-accessible at times because you could just go to a dragon, but like to go out to a golf course and to play with other people it's pretty daunting and I think um I think for a long time I didn't really appreciate enough people who started golf late in life because I was so young that I don't remember this beginning stage of you know having to put in four or five years to get good enough to feel confident to actually go out to a golf course and play but having done that on like the surf side I'm like okay now when I go to the diving range and I see some you know 30-something year old woman learning for the first time I'm like I understand you know yeah interesting I guess golf is quite similar to surfing and in that way especially you think it might take you four hours to play 18 holes but each shot only lasts
**Michael Frampton**
what half a second?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So there's actually not that much golf.
**Tiffany Joh**
It's yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of walking. It's a lot of like, hunting and drinking for some people. But I, uh, it's just, and it's a small surfing.
I'm like, how much time did I actually spend surfing? Like 40 seconds today? Like I think most of it was just sitting there and like, and I do think the other reason why it kind of attracts the same personality, though, is it's kind of whatever you want to get out of it, right?
So it can be super introspective and personal and it could also be really, really social. And I think any given time, depending on your mood or, you know, at what point in your life you are, like, it can change, right?
So I mean, there were times when, uh, I played golf only because I was trying to get better. And I was just trying to like improve my game.
I had no desire to, you know, I had no desire to like interact with other people and I was just in my own little cocoon.
And then there's other times where I don't even care about any of the technique or getting better. I just want to go and walk around a golf course for four hours with my buddies and have a good time.
I think surfing to me is really similar where sometimes I just want to power a lot of well and I want to like try to find a little shoulder to myself and not talk to anyone and I want it to be really personal.
And then there's other times where I just want to be out in the water with a bunch of my buddies or any, in my case these days like sitting in the parking lot drinking coffee and looking at the waves.
But there's something like that can be inherently really social or really personal depending on what you're looking for that day.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's a great golf surfing analogy. So true. Yeah. I certainly have gone through stages where I'm so focused on getting better and then other times, you know, it's Lucy Goosey and just going with the flow.
Oh, I think both of those types of sessions inform each other. Have you gone through stages like that when surfing, like have you had any surf coaching done at all?
**Tiffany Joh**
So I actually, well, this is another guest on your pod, Ruhill has this surf retreat called surf simply, and the second year I was surfing, that was my, you know, off season trip, and he just completely, him and his coaching staff are insanely amazing in everything they do.
They're like, absolutely unicorn, but I mean, they just blew my mind with like the technical aspect of it, and you know, they film everything, they do like lectures, and as much as I think on the surface, I maybe act like, you know, very mellow, and I don't really care about the technique.
Like, at my core, I still want to get as good as I can, regardless of what level I end up being at.
So that actually is really motivational. because I ended up making a couple friends locally and this is our big COVID activity is we would you know since no one was really working so we would go to the beach and we would trade off at a camera I would put on a tripod and so everyone would do like 20 minutes at the camera and then afterwards I mean not that we really even knew what we were looking for but we kind of had an idea of what looks good and what looks bad and so afterwards we would grab a couple of rectus burritos and we kind of laugh at each other's lifestyles and then and then also try to start to critique each other like why you know we bogged a rail here or why like this you know we didn't you know completely cut back and and doing that it was so helpful because it's kind of listening to your voice on an answering machine it's never quite what you think it is really much so it was really helpful because in golf we talk a lot about feel versus real so feel you know with everything you do if you're trying to make some kind of change in your golf swing
You have to exaggerate it because when you bring it up to full speed, it's not going to be as much because your body wants to keep doing the same thing it's been doing.
And then when you get into competition, you're automatically going to revert back to what you're used to doing. And so if you look at some of the PGA Tor and LPG for guys and gals, when they're like doing their practice wing, it looks grotesque.
Because they're trying to exaggerate a specific movement because they know once I speed it up. And I think that's a lot of what I learned with the coaching at Sir Simply and then also building ourselves and then watching it back later.
Because if you watch it right afterwards, you kind of have an idea of like, this is what it felt like.
It felt like I cut back all the way to the white water and then you look at it and you're like, but I didn't.
So maybe the next time I have to really exaggerate that. And I think that's one of the things that Ru and his team taught me is you got to do something like too much.
You got to over. do it and then kind of find the middle ground from there. Um, and that was just like so helpful to me.
Um, as I, you know, trying to figure out to do this whole surfing thing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, that's a great point. I like that. Um, do you remember Happy Gilmore?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah. Chubs? Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
It's all in the hips.
**Tiffany Joh**
Is that true? Yes. Okay. And I had no idea, but surfing is true.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. The center, the center of gravity, center of mass, I should say.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah. I think anything where you're kind of mixing up like weight shift and rotation, like hips have got to have a really big part of it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I see a lot of similarities between, um, good surfing technique and good golf technique. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. And, uh, it's certainly something notice looking at you Instagram. and the way you surf you, you don't really have a post dance, which is great.
And that might be just because you're so used to, because a golf swing stance is quite an upright stance.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah. Well, I, you know, I think like if you look at anything athletically, I kind of never understood like the really side on like, I think you call it tacoing because you're like you're bent over and folded over.
Because like in golf, you're always like the biggest thing is regardless of what's going on here, you're really engaging with your target.
And so if you're not kind of squared off looking at your target, then like I've seen, you know, two types of golfers, the ones that maybe everything looks messed up from here, but they're always like looking out towards like the flag or the fairway or whatever they're hitting to.
And I'm like, that guy's got a chance, you know? but the one who has like complete blinders on and he's just looking at the golf ball and isn't really even connected to his target at all.
mean that guy, have no idea when that golf ball is going. Regardless of what's happening technique-wise with his golf swing, I actually have a funny story, another golfster parallel.
So I was playing the Scottish Open and this was maybe, I think this was maybe like the best round I ever had when I was playing on tour, but at the time I was kind of struggling with my putting and so my putting coach who's this Canadian guy came out to the Scottish Open and he's looking at my stroke and looking at the way I was reading everything and he was like, you know, everything looks really solid.
You just look really disconnected from the target and so he was kind of giving me all these like metaphors and sports of people like being really engaged with their targets, free car drivers and all that stuff and I was like none of these are landing and he's like, okay, sir, for a girl.
He's like, who's your favorite surfer in the world? And I was like, ah! It's got to be step he'll more like she's amazing and he's like okay Give me a second and he goes on Google images and he pulled up this image of her doing like a backside backside bottom turn And she's looking up at the lip and everything is like looking up at that lip And he's like it doesn't if you're like so focused on what's going on right in front of you And you forget about the target you're going to like he's like you don't stand a chance And so we ended up doing a lot of like visualization stuff where we took you know like a chalk pen and we you know drew out all these dots on the green and then I would basically just like roll balls over them and Didn't hit a ton of cuts I was just kind of doing a lot of visualization stuff and then went out the next day and just putted out of my mind Like had one of the best putting grounds in my life And that's like I don't know if it was like you know a direct result of that, but I do think it made a really big impact on me to like To like regardless of what I'm doing to like never forget where the target
**Michael Frampton**
good is and where I'm going. Yeah. So when you actually hit the ball, are you looking at the ball in that moment?
**Tiffany Joh**
So yeah, I think like when you take it away, like you are kind of looking at it, but you're not really focused on it.
You're just trying to swing. But there are a lot of professional golfers who when they putt don't look at the ball and they look at the whole because like the stroke is so short.
Like surely you're not going to miss the ball with the stroke. That's like a foot long. So there's a lot of people who when they really start to struggle with like gauging the speed or how hard they have to hit it or something like that, then they try to get themselves as target oriented as possible.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. So as part of that, do you sort of open up your peripheral vision?
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, so I think for me when I putt like my eyes are kind of
**Michael Frampton**
going towards the ball but I'm actually looking at a spot a little bit in front and I'm just trying to roll the ball over that spot because you know like when you're putting you're reading a lot of break so you're kind of trying to figure out like is this gonna break right is we gonna break left another thing that's kind of like surfing and then I like to kind of like take a spot and roll it over that spot but also kind of keeping in mind like where the hole is as well um so I'm I look like I'm looking at the ball but I'm actually not really focusing there interesting hmm so I guess it's kind of like um have you ever learned to juggle uh not really but I think I know you don't look you don't look at your hands right you kind of look up and you're you should see where the ball is coming and you should sort of know where your hand is and where the ball is going to be it makes me think that's sort of that sort of principle so you you have quite a
You have a sharp awareness of where the ball is and where the club is without necessarily looking directly at it.
**Tiffany Joh**
Right.
**Michael Frampton**
And that's, is that something that's purposely developed or does that just sort of happen over time with hours on the course?
**Tiffany Joh**
I think just intuitively with time, and I think a lot of it is just, you know, you say a lot something and then you try to grasp that straw to figure out what else I'm going to work.
I'm sure at some point people spiral will not be like, where am I looking? Maybe I should try looking somewhere else.
So I do think, and I don't think, you know, everyone is like that. I'm sure there are some people that do you like to look at a spot on the ball and then everything else is secondary, but that's just kind of where I felt like I've had it the most effectively.
Just because I think if I just focus on the ball, I get too wrapped up in what my stroke is doing.
And especially in putting like the stroke is so overrated. like anyone with a little bit of athleticism should be able to hit a ball like six inches on mine.
that's all you really need to do with a pot.
**Michael Frampton**
So that makes it makes a lot of sense. It really does. Even just the fact of it just purposely opening up your peripheral vision is actually a very calming thing to do.
So it calms your nervous system down. Did you do any specific visual training like eye exercises?
**Tiffany Joh**
No, a lot of it was like we'd use the chalk pen to like put out dots and then we would take like a straight one and do some dots along the line.
And then we would do like a big right to left your and a left to right because I mean 99% of putting is just matching up your line in your speed because it can be different.
mean you can make a 8-foot put on like five different lines depending on how hard it you hit it, like you can kind of drip and dye something in or you can kind of hammer it and like not put as much break.
So a lot of it was kind of that like some green reading exercises. So but yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
If what's your biggest fear and golf?
**Tiffany Joh**
My biggest fear and golf. That's a good question. think maybe like this is slightly irrational but I was playing in the British Open one year and a girl I was playing with hit a volunteer with a drive like in the head and we heard it from like 250 yards away and there was blood everywhere and he ended up being fine and he was actually like oh yeah I like my head bumped it over there and like his head was bleeding and he had a towel to it and he apparently I checked on him that night and he came back the next day to volunteer again but like that I think
think that scares me so much. you know, professional golf, when there's a lot of spectators, they kind of line the fairways.
So it looks very narrow. And it looks like if you hit it off line, that you could kill someone.
And I think that's definitely my biggest fear involved.
**Michael Frampton**
What's your biggest fear in surfing?
**Tiffany Joh**
I don't know. I mean, I'm not like a fearless surfer by any like I don't like going out in big or tough condition.
I do think there was one. So we live really close to the Mexican border. So my friend and I, my friend, Kat and I like to drive down and surf like Rosarito and stuff.
it's not like super safe. Like there's no life guards or anything. And there was one day and this was when I was early on in my surfing career and like didn't have any ocean knowledge at all where it was kind of
thing you know next to this cliff and it was like super high tide and it was a ton of swell and like some of the fishermen had put out all these lobster tracks and I wiped out on a wave and I got my foot like tangled in the rope around the lobster trap and I think that's maybe the most scared I've ever been in the water but um since then I've learned I've learned not to go out at super high tide with a ton of swell if the waves are breaking right against the cliffs yeah huh if you could only play golf with one club what is that club one club am I like just for enjoyment or am I trying to shoot a good score if there's a different answer to both those versions that I'm interested to hear both well I love putting it's my favorite part of the game like I love you know all the intricacies of it and stuff so
If there was only one part of the game I could do, I would just cut. But I think if I was trying to shoot a good score, I would probably take like a seven iron because I feel like I could hit pretty much any shot I need to with that.
And you can always put with it too.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Okay. What's your favorite surfboard?
**Tiffany Joh**
So, um, much like golf, I'm not someone that owns like a ton of boards. Um, have three, I have like a nine four nose writer, I have like a eight to egg and I just got like a like a seven to egg.
Right now it's the eight to egg. Um, it's like a, it's a jock haul who's like a local shaper in San Diego.
Um, when I actually bought the longboard on Craigslist when I first got into surfing and that was a Josh haul and I loved it so much and I contacted Josh to get the egg shape.
And he was asking me all these questions, like, you know, do you want to type in, do you like speed egg and.
I was like, I don't know. But I want it to be the purple that the exit emoji is. And so that's what I'm to go on.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, shout out to Josh. Yeah, I've got one of his boards.
**Tiffany Joh**
It's one of my favorite boards. Love it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's a good approach, though. had just had three boards. I mean, so many surfers just own too many boards and make it too complicated.
**Tiffany Joh**
Yeah, and I think even with the board, I'm sure if you're really, really good, you can kind of sense all the intricacies when you go surf.
But for me, I need like a board when it's really small, like a board when it's like super fun.
And then, you know, a board where I'm like, all right, if I'm going to have to, you know, get out there and I need to get out test the light water, like this is going to help me without getting things washed up.
Like that's the only way I make my choice.
**Michael Frampton**
How many sets of clubs do you have?
**Tiffany Joh**
And so... Well, I probably have, I mean, I've given away a ton of them because I'm not, I'm not a hoarder or anything, but I think I've probably had maybe 30 sets of clubs in my lifetime.
I've probably given away like 15 to 20 of them. But I think for me, it's not like, I don't get, I don't replace full sets.
I'll have like, like 15 putters and then like, you know, 30 drivers. Like, I'm kind of replacing them one by one in the bag, depending on, um, sometimes it's, I would keep, you know, you're only allowed to use 14 clubs during a tournament, but I would keep 16 and based on what kind of golf course we're playing, I would kind of switch out clubs.
But, so I end up having like 100 wedges because, you know, a lot of that is very turf dependent.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. Do, is that common? Do some people go overboard with, with clubs that have like, multiple different sets for different courses and
and this commitment at disadvantage?
**Tiffany Joh**
I think most people keep the iron pretty much the same. But yeah, with wedges, especially on the professional level, people are switching those out a lot.
Also with wedges because it's so skin dependent, you always want fresh grooves. wedges I was actually probably replacing at least once a month.
Then the driver pretty much any time a company came out with a new model I was asking for to try one, because driver technology is changing so quickly that it actually does make a difference if you have the latest and greatest model in your bag.
But then cutting is so intuitive and field-based. You can put with the same putter your entire life. So I think I've only put with maybe three or four different putters in my career in competition.
So wedges I probably have. I mean, we use them as like door stops and like we use them to like...
You know, what changed the bets on the air conditioner and stuff.
**Michael Frampton**
Funny. Have you ever been to a wave pool yet?
**Tiffany Joh**
I haven't. I'm not sure I would like it. I think I would feel a lot of pressure.
**Michael Frampton**
You'd be used to the pressure though.
**Tiffany Joh**
Maybe. But I would just, I think I have a feeling that I did have a friend actually who used to work first or simply and, you know, they did a wave pool kit that she was saying.
She played volleyball at the college club. So she was used to like pressure and competition and she said that hours leading up to like going to the wave pool, she was, she felt like she was out of meat.
**Michael Frampton**
She was like, it was just the tension was just. Yeah. suppose everyone's watching and it's your turn. Yeah. But pressure makes diamonds, they say.
**Tiffany Joh**
And I do kind of like the idea that if you miss it, there's someone that can pick it up.
Like it never goes wasted. Right. There's always like a second or whatever. person who could like pick up whatever you missed.
that makes me feel a little bit better.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's kind of like the driving range for surfers. Yeah. Yeah, and they're popping up everywhere. So yeah, I think it's going to change surfing for the, well, maybe for the bed and we'll see.
All right, well, Tif, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It's awesome. Um, if there was one, if there was one piece of surfing advice, you could leave listeners with what would there be?
**Tiffany Joh**
Um, I think just going back to consistency over intensity. Um, I wish I could say, I know everyone says like the best or from the water is having the most fun, but the person having the most fun is like probably the person who's getting better and seeing improvement and being encouraged.
um, I'm going to go with consistency over intensity, like put it in 20, 30 minutes consistently, rather. then, you know, five hours every other time.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I liked it. I think there's a lot of truth to that saying, you know, the best surface having the most fun.
Obviously, you know, outside of competition surfing, because that's different. I don't think surfing is even a sport.
**Tiffany Joh**
Sometimes I don't think so either. Yeah, more of a sport than golf, though.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, yeah. Yeah, if you can, if you get a sport, you can do in your pajamas with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth.
**Tiffany Joh**
Maybe it's not a sport and a beer in one hand.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Exactly. I will tip.
**Tiffany Joh**
What's your Instagram? So people can follow along. So my Instagram is tip Joe T I F F J O H.
It's like 90% tacos, but during that, that would be interesting to follow.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Cool. I will have links to that in the show notes.
**Tiffany Joh**
Again, thank you so much for taking the time. Awesome.
**Michael Frampton**
Thank you.

107 The Parallels of Surfing and Golf: Tiffany Joh’s Insights on Golf, Surfing, and Finding Flow
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**106 Surf Everyday Until Sponsored - Silas’s Bold Mission** Jan 09, 2025

What does it take to master surfing when you start late, face fear, and dive into the complexities of surf culture?
In this episode, Silas shares his inspiring story of committing to surfing at 19 and navigating the highs and lows of his journey. From mastering line-up politics to dealing with fear and embracing dry-land training, Silas offers a refreshing perspective on what it means to pursue passion while staying grounded in the realities of surf culture. If you’re looking to improve your skills or gain insight into the unwritten rules of the surf world, this episode is packed with practical tools and honest wisdom.
Learn how to approach line-up politics and navigate the culture shock of the surf world with respect and confidence.
Discover the benefits of dry-land training, video analysis, and unconventional balance exercises to improve your surfing skills.
Get actionable tips on conquering fear, entering a flow state, and even surfing through chandelier barrels with your eyes closed.
Take your surfing skills and understanding of the surf culture to the next level—listen now!
Follow Silas on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/surfendipitous
**Key Points**
Silas expresses his determination to pursue surfing despite starting late, inspired by Kelly Slater's career longevity.
Silas started surfing again at age 19 after a period of personal struggles and found passion and intention in the sport.
Silas uses social media to document his surfing journey, aiming for opportunities rather than a specific sponsorship.
Silas discusses the challenges of overcoming fear in surfing, emphasizing the importance of being present and in the moment.
Silas mentions the role of flow state in surfing performance and how it can be achieved through the right level of challenge.
Silas plans to continue his surfing journey in the South Island of New Zealand, relying on spontaneous decisions and environmental responses.
Silas shares his Instagram handle, SurfEndipitous, inviting listeners to follow his surfing journey.
**Outline**
**Silas' Surfing Journey and Inspiration**
Silas began surfing at the age of four but stopped after a bad experience until they rediscovered it at 12 during a family vacation to Hawaii.
Silas' dream since age 12 was to become a professional surfer and marry a Hawaiian.
At 18, after completing cooking school, Silas moved to Tofino and started surfing daily, progressing from a soft top to a hard top surfboard.
Silas has been posting a surfing video every day on Instagram for 73 days with the goal of getting sponsored.
Silas draws inspiration from Kelly Slater and aims to improve continuously, regardless of the time it takes.
**Overcoming Personal Challenges**
Silas faced significant personal challenges growing up, including a mentally ill stepfather and a complex family situation.
Despite these challenges, Silas found motivation and drive in surfing, viewing it as a positive outlet and a way to channel their experiences into something constructive.
**Social Media and Sponsorship Goals**
Silas uses social media as a platform to share their surfing journey and attract potential sponsorships, though they are open to various forms of support and opportunities.
Michael mentions Gravey, a popular surfer who gained fame and income through social media despite not being a top-tier pro shortboarder.
**Training and Improvement Techniques**
Silas has benefited from having a surf coach and using video footage to analyze and improve their technique.
Michael suggests various training methods including dry land training, body awareness exercises, and vision training to enhance surfing skills.
Silas practices pop-up on dry land and is considering trying to surf goofy foot based on feedback from a popular video.
**Surfing Culture and Etiquette**
Silas discusses the challenges of navigating surf culture and lineup politics, emphasizing the importance of being respectful and interactive in the water.
Michael advises being friendly and acknowledging others in the lineup, even if they do not reciprocate, and highlights the importance of proving oneself as a respectful and skilled surfer over time.
**Dealing with Fear in Surfing**
Silas identifies fear as a significant barrier to improvement in surfing, particularly the moment of committing to catch a wave.
They suggest being present in the moment and not letting fear dictate actions as a way to overcome it.
Michael discusses the concept of flow state and how it can be achieved through the right level of challenge and practice.
**Future Plans and Aspirations**
Silas plans to travel to the South Island of New Zealand, specifically Dunedin and the Catlins, without a set job, embracing a spontaneous and adventurous approach to life.
Silas' Instagram handle is Serfandipetus, a play on the word 'serendipity' and their love for surfing.
**Transcription**
**Silas Gnarside**
I understand the situation, I get it, but I don't think that means that I just shouldn't try because... And I think Kelly Slater is like super inspirational for me because, you know, he's still doing that at 50. And I figured, like, even if it takes me 10, 15 years, like I'm here for it, you know? And to be able to share that and be able to, like, you know, look back through all the progress is going to be phenomenal. There's no other thing in my life that drives me in that way, you know, that I've had this like such an intention for. I think that's probably the hardest thing about surfing is shutting the fear off, hey.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. That is a couple of quotes from today's guest, Silas. And as you can tell by the episode title, Silas has a bold surfing goal. Brazen! Audacious. Borderline absurd, some may say, but he brings a lot of drive and a deeper motivation, fueled by a very strong sense of self-belief. And when I came across his story and his Instagram profile, his passion reminded me of my early surfing journey, and I reached out. Turns out he's in New Zealand. Timing was perfect, we met up, and dove into his backstory, some of the deeper motivations driving him, lots of the stuff that he's had to overcome—fear in the water, negotiating and navigating surf culture and lineup politics. The ocean is a brutal teacher and surf culture can be downright cutthroat. So in today's episode we'll hear about not only Silas's experiences with all of that and his goals of getting better, but, you know, a lot of tips on how to overcome a lot of these challenges as well, of course. Silas' bold and brazen goals are certainly on some level at least relatable to you, the listeners to this episode, and it's going to be interesting just to see how far he can take his surfing. Of course, it’ll be interesting to see if he sticks with it, given the barriers to getting better at surfing are not small, as we all know. But keep an eye on his Instagram. You know, Silas can be the guinea pig. Let's see what we can learn from his journey. But for now... Let's meet Silas. When did you start surfing?
**Silas Gnarside**
Not until about two and a half years ago. Okay. Yeah. So one of my earliest memories with my mom is a fight we had because she took me surfing and I got up on a wave and she saw how lit up I was and how much I had just like... and maybe she hadn't seen that with other things because I was doing sports my whole life, all sorts of different sports.
**Michael Frampton**
Where were you and why surfing?
**Silas Gnarside**
And when I fell and I got the salt water in my mouth and the tumbling of the wave, I did not want to do it anymore. I was out. I was like, no, get me out of here. And she wanted to make me keep doing it because she saw how much I enjoyed it. And I was like, no. And it was this like huge fight that I'll probably remember for the rest of my life. And then I didn't touch it again until I was 12. We went on a family vacation to Hawaii. So... and then, yeah, when I was 12, we went on a family vacation to Hawaii and I did a lesson there and like really chill waves.
**Michael Frampton**
How old were you when the first thing happened? Four.
**Silas Gnarside**
Four, okay, wow. Yeah. And I like fell in love with it all over again. Like it was like I had completely forgotten that was, you know... and so I decided at the age of 12 that my dream was to become a professional surfer and marry a Hawaiian. And so, yeah, that's loosely what we're going for in some sense, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, you made that decision when you were 12. But you're not 14 now. So what happened between 12 and...?
**Silas Gnarside**
A lot. A lot of stuff happened, yeah. I went through some not-so-great things in my home growing up and I had a lot of responsibility from a very early age. And I think when really bad things happen, it really stunts your ability in most aspects of your life, you know? You kind of forget, get lost in the hurt, and forget about the things that you love. Yeah. Especially at an early age, I think it's kind of hard to navigate your way through that without much experience, you know? So yeah, I guess I just kind of got caught up in what was going on. And I was busy kind of providing opposed to just doing what I wanted to do and sticking true to that. And then when I was 14, I surfed again in Hawaii and that kind of, again, almost got there, but not really. And then when I was finishing my cooking school to become a chef, my instructor was like, "Why don't you go move to Tofino and go surfing?" And he didn't know that I had surfed or, you know, anything. He just said it and this light was like switched on in my head. And I was like, my God, I have to do this.
**Michael Frampton**
So how old were you when this happened?
**Silas Gnarside**
19.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, okay.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, like 18, 19. And so as soon as I was done my course—part of the requirements for the course is to work, I don't know, I think it's like 600 hours in the industry—so I went and got a job in Tofino, which is a surfing town. And at this five-star resort that was like right on the beach, they had staff accommodations. So, like, two-minute walk to the beach. And yeah, I just got after it. Like, I started charging. I bought like a nine-foot soft top and like a shitty wetsuit. And I just started going out like past the break. Like I had no experience really besides the one or two times I'd done it when I was younger. And I just started figuring it out. Like I didn't really, like, you know, have somebody like showing me the ropes. It was like, I was so eager and so keen and it was so outside of my comfort zone and I didn't care. Like, and it's like a passion that I have that I don't have with anything else. Like there's no other thing in my life that drives me in that way, you know, that I've had this like such an intention for, feels like, you know. And from there, yeah, I just got better and better because I was going like every day. And then it got to the point where I'd gotten a hard top. I think it was like a seven-two and I see people doing turns and stuff. And I like, I know I want to get there, but I have no idea. And that was when I got a surfing coach because I was like, I could consistently catch green waves and trim them nicely and ride them. And yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, so you're 19 when you rediscovered surfing and committed to it. And so you're 21 now?
**Silas Gnarside**
22.
**Michael Frampton**
22 now, okay. So I'd be remiss if we skipped past that sore point we touched on. Did you lose a parent or something at 12?
**Silas Gnarside**
No. So my stepdad, he was quite a mentally ill person. I don't hold any anger or hate towards him because he genuinely is like... he's in his own world. You know, he's not capable of... but he was my dad growing up. Like he met my mom when I was two and he raised me like he was my dad. Yeah. And they were married for 10 years. They had three kids together and all three of my siblings sort of have some sort of disability. And I didn't necessarily. And I received a lot of like hate from him without knowing why, you know? Like it was like, because most of the time he was like the supportive, loving father. And then other times he would be like... I felt excluded all the time because I wasn't his kid or whatever. But they didn't even tell me until I was 12. So up until that point, I had thought that he was my real dad. And then they kind of broke it to me because, you know, I'm a little bit darker than my siblings. You know, I look different. And he would like Dall-E the N-word when I was like growing up to like try and make me feel bad about being different. And like, I don't even know why I'm different, you know? So it was like always this, yeah, really not a nice game to play really. But they ended up splitting up and my younger brother—I have five siblings now—the one after me, he kind of got caught in the middle of it because it is actually his dad. And my stepdad kind of like twisted him up and really messed his head up and just kind of like alienated him. And yeah, so... and yeah, my brother went to rehab like the week that I left for New Zealand. So yeah, and it's been a struggle. And yeah, like that's my baby brother, you know? I had to watch him go through that. And I'd say that was probably the hardest thing about all of it was that there was nothing I could do. Like I just had... I was helpless. I just had to watch it happen and there was nothing I could do. It was just the way it was. And it was really hard to come to terms with that and work through that mentally. And, you know, of course there's lots of... I could go on and on about the crazy shit that happened, but that's kind of the gist. And yeah. But like I know my birth dad now. I met him after. And yeah, we're really good friends and we've supported each other a lot since we've met and made each other better. You know, we’re both very blunt people. And like even though he didn't raise me, we're like the same person. And it's so crazy to see, like genetically, because we're so similar. And I never knew him my whole life, but like when I met him, I was like, there is somebody else that's like pretty similar to me out there. Because I don't experience it a lot. It's, yeah, like a genuine good connection that I find quite rarely. Yeah. So to find that with my dad through... but like in more of a mutual kind of way opposed to like, he's my dad and I'm his son kind of thing, you know? Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. It's not always easy. Yeah. Like a little bit of experience. And my boys, their mother was quite mentally ill before she passed away. So I had to deal with her and that sort of thing. My kids sort of went through, sounds like something a little bit similar to you, but different, but yeah, it's not easy, but it does.
**Silas Gnarside**
I'm so happy. Like I wouldn't trade my life or my experiences for anything. Cause like I'll never ever be in as bad of a place as I was, you know? And I experienced that at an early age and that's like done. It's like only forward, you know? Kind of feels like because yeah, it can't get much worse than that.
**Michael Frampton**
I think it's a common thread amongst a lot of great people is they have a traumatic childhood often. And it can go either way, where you end up under a bridge with a needle in your arm or you can become one of the best in the world at something. Yeah. And it looks like you've chosen the right path and hopefully your brother sticks with rehab and finds his way as well. Yeah.
**Silas Gnarside**
And I've offered him that arm as well. Like when you're serious and you wanna come over here wherever I am and work, put your head down, like partying and like being a hooligan. I want that for you and I'm here for that. But until you're willing to take that seriously, I can't have you coming over here and like messing up what I have going for myself, you know? And it's really hard to create that boundary as well.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, it's like those experiences can light fires in people and obviously it's lit a surfing fire in...
**Silas Gnarside**
You. And he sees it too. And he's like, you know, he's... yeah, he sees it. And I think it kind of inspires him a little bit, you know? He's always like, man, I wanna be out there, you know? Like, yeah, so, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. And okay, so that, and then you rediscovered surfing at 19. You've stuck with it since. And then I came across you via Instagram. And it was, correct me if I'm wrong, but posting a surfing video every day until I'm sponsored. And that started about 70 days ago, was it?
**Silas Gnarside**
73 days ago.
**Michael Frampton**
73 days ago. Okay. And we're two days before Christmas in December, 2024. And so what happened 73-ish days ago? Like what, why?
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, I've struggled on and off with social media. I see it as like a negative thing and I don't see it as something that's super beneficial and I've wasted a lot of time on it. And I kind of had a moment where I like redownloaded it and was like, you know, kind of like getting into posting stuff again. And I was like, you know, like, what am I doing? You know, like, what's the goal here? Cause I'm not... I hate wasting my time. I really do. Not that I can't relax and enjoy doing nothing, but I don't like spending my time on things I don't think are gonna like, yeah, benefit me. So I just, I wanted to start posting content, but I didn't know what, but I'm surfing every day and I've got this mouth mount for my GoPro. And I know that I want to go in the direction of dedicating myself more and more to surfing and getting better. And I just kind of said, fuck it. I was like, yeah, I'm like, let's do it. Let's see what happens. Like, you know, like I'm just gonna keep going. I don't care if I get to day 1,137, I'll do it. Like, yeah. Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
So, but what about the surfing side of it? Like, and like, this is such a specific, like until I'm sponsored.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah. Well, I kind of like that it just says that because people automatically assume that I want to be like sponsored by a big company and like in that top tier of surfing. I don't necessarily need that or want that. That's not like the goal for me. But to get sponsored is very broad, you know? And I think it leaves opportunity for a lot of different things, opposed to being like, I just want one thing because I don't even know what that would be at the moment, you know? So I think it's kind of nice to just leave it open-ended and like having people like you, like reach out and be like, you want to go on a podcast? That's not getting sponsored, but that's an opportunity and that's super cool, you know? And I think really anything that I get out of it is, yeah, totally worth it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I mean, obviously you want to get better at surfing.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And you know, the better you get, the more fun it is. Yeah. It's like a logarithmic thing, you know? The better you get, the more fun it is times 10 and that just keeps going.
**Silas Gnarside**
And going. Yeah, I make surfing films and like that trip to Tahiti, there was just 10 of us and we were all surfers and videographers, you know? Like I want that. I want to be around people who have that passion for surfing as well as me. And I know that that's like the happiest I could be, you know, living that life. And I've been working part-time the last probably six months and just surfing a lot. And it's been really good, but now I'm super broke and I'm like living in my van and I'm kind of living this like bum surfing lifestyle. And it's what I wanted for my whole time in New Zealand, but I've only gotten a slice of it, but it's been pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty stoked about it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
It sounds like things are falling into place. Yeah. I think that's what's good about social media is it can be very inspirational. Yeah. Like it does make me... do you follow Gravey at all?
**Silas Gnarside**
No.
**Michael Frampton**
No? No. Do you know who he is?
**Silas Gnarside**
No.
**Michael Frampton**
No? Okay, so gosh, I don't know his exact story, but I know that he's huge now. Like he's probably one of the most popular surfing...
**Silas Gnarside**
Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. He's a real stop. He's probably one of the most well-paid surfers. Yeah. And he's a very average surfer. Well, he's good at surfing, but compared to a pro shortboarder, he doesn't come close. And he's made a following and a living out of sharing his journey. I think sobriety is how he sort of replaced drinking with surfing basically. I may be misspeaking, so I don't know his exact story. And he surfs novelty waves. One of his goals was to surf every state in America. So he's surfing lakes and surfing rivers and chasing ferries on jet skis to surf the wakes off these big boats. And then he’s hooking up with Jamie O'Brien, who's another sort of ex-pro who's gone massive with social media. And they're surfing big waves and stuff. So those guys who don't take the pro surfing sponsored route, but end up being essentially sponsored surfers, they actually earn way more money. Yeah. And they don't have to be away from their family all the time, traveling on someone else's pro tennis tour schedule. Whilst it may be unrealistic when people first hear, "I wanna become a sponsored surfer, but I've only really started when I was 19," because you're competing against rich kids that started when they were five, there's so many different ways to look at it.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah. I think because I started late, it's like, I understand the situation. I get it, but I don't think that means that I just shouldn't try. And I think Kelly Slater is super inspirational for me because he's still doing that at 50. And I figured, even if it takes me 10, 15 years, I'm here for it. And to be able to share that and be able to look back through all the progress is gonna be phenomenal.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I don't regret... you don't regret a surf. No. Even if it was a bad surf and something, you'd never regret going surfing. And I think it's a worthy pursuit and it's something that even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better. And there's people like Skip Fry who are in their 80s who still go surfing every day. If you keep doing it, you can still... it's a lifelong pursuit basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you sharing it on social media, it's inspirational. It's gonna be interesting to follow your journey. You've only just started. You get to that point where you've got a certain level of follows and it will sort of... yeah. It will take on a new form, I'm sure.
**Silas Gnarside**
Even if it doesn't, that's okay. You know, like I don't really have any, I don't know, like expectations or like dead set intentions. I'm just like putting it out there, you know? And seeing what happens. Yeah. Kind of letting it just, instead of trying to like force it in one direction, you know, just like see where it takes me. Yeah. Yeah. Just.
**Michael Frampton**
Get better at surfing. Yeah. Keep it simple. I like that. Yeah. What's been, what's in the last, since you rediscovered surfing at 19, the last three years, what's been the thing that's helped you the most with surfing? A coach.
**Silas Gnarside**
For sure. Yeah. Definitely a coach. And even just like video footage. I think those two things are very helpful. But it is interesting starting out because, you know, I feel like I've got to pick apart from what I'm learning, what I want to keep, what style, what's not, you know, and trying to like put all these things together is, yeah, very difficult. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And what else have you done? Do you do any, do you skateboard? Do you do anything else? No.
**Silas Gnarside**
I've surfing skated a little bit. But I think it would be debatable on whether or not that's helpful. I'm practicing pop-up on dry land. That's really nice because it can always get better. And that video that got a lot of views, a lot of people thought I was switching, I was surfing switch. Yeah. So they're like, he's just like messing around and like surfing switch. And I was like, no. And they're like, maybe you're a goofy footer. So I haven't tried surfing goofy ever, but I think I might give it a go just because enough people were like, kind of like, yeah, said that about that video. So maybe I'll give it a go because I can't even say that I'm not goofy because I haven't tried it, you know, I just naturally was regular. And I never even thought to like give goofy a chance, you know, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
It certainly wouldn't do any harm learning how to do it. No. Which way do you skate?
**Silas Gnarside**
I skate mongo.
**Michael Frampton**
No, but which foot forward?
**Silas Gnarside**
Left.
**Michael Frampton**
Foot. Left foot forward, okay. And if you were to kick a football or soccer ball, which foot would you use?
**Silas Gnarside**
Right foot. You're probably a natural footer then. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think when people first start surfing, you have a... people sometimes it's called the poo stance. And it's a more sort of, it's a more balanced, safe feeling position. Yeah. And then once your balance and your comfort levels improve in the water, you sort of more, you gradually, your body relaxes and things sort of fall into place and you'd sort of develop your own style. There's a lot of reasons why that happens.
**Silas Gnarside**
I find that that's actually one of the things I've struggled with the most is my compression and getting down low. And I understand that's a problem that I have and I need to work on, but I still struggle like every time I get in the water to compress properly. Because I feel like I'm like all the way down, like super compressed. And then I see video footage and I'm like, my knees are like a little bit bent. Like it's super difficult for some reason. And maybe it is like a safety thing or I don't know, but it's been hard for me to like, kind of like condition myself to compress.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, what, I mean, from a technical coach's perspective, yeah, you're very... you don't bend at the hips, you bend at the knees a lot. So there's definitely some work to be done in that regard. I mean, gosh, I mean, send an email to someone like Brad Gerlach. He does a program called Wave Ki, which is all about refining your body position and technique on dry land. And ideally it's done in front of a mirror so that you're quite... how does my body feel? What does it look like? Those two things, as you know, when you watch yourself surfing, they're so far apart. I thought I was doing this, but it looks like this and it's heartbreaking. Yeah. It will be for a long time.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, it is.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. But if you start training in front of a mirror, then the way your body feels and the way it looks, those two things start to line... they start to line up more. Yeah, that's interesting. And it increases your body awareness. It works on very ancient neurological things. Like when we learn to walk, we actually learn by watching other people walk. It's called mirror neurons.
**Silas Gnarside**
Okay, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So dry land training does work. Yeah, okay. Things like practicing skateboarding using surfing techniques, whilst it gets made fun of a lot and can look a little ridiculous, it does work. Do you know what I mean? Because not only are you working on those positions in front of a mirror, but then you're moving around on an uneven surface like a skateboard. Obviously it's not the same as surfing, but you can kind of mimic surfing style on a skateboard. A lot of coaches swear by it and that's all they use. So that's part of the reason why watching footage and training in front of the mirror helps a lot, because it just increases your body awareness so that you know, like if you were eyeing a barrel and you know it's X amount of size, then you know your body has to compress down and become that size in order to get into it. But if there's a mismatch and you're standing taller than you think you are to fit in the barrel, then the lip's going to hit you in the head and you might not click as to why that happened. Little things like that can make a massive difference. I mean, if I had my time all over again to sort of really attack surfing, I would have spent more time just working on dry land stuff like body awareness, balance, vision.
**Silas Gnarside**
Slackline. Slackline's good. I like slackline. Slackline? Yeah, slackline's nice. I thought because I could ride a surfboard that slackline should be no problem, you know? Because it seems like maybe simpler balancing on a slackline because it's just there and you just walk on it. And I got on there and I was so frustrated that I couldn't do it. And it took me like a good like two or three weeks of, you know, just every time I walked past it, giving it a go. And the first time that I ever walked, like finished the slackline, was the day I got back from Tahiti. I had surfed Teahupoʻo and I was like, looking at the slackline, I was like, I can fucking do that shit. And I got on there and I smashed it. It felt pretty good. Yeah, that's a good one for balance, I think. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, even just simple things like standing on one foot with your eyes closed. Something that sounds easy.
**Silas Gnarside**
I heard you can't do it.
**Michael Frampton**
You might not be able to, but I mean, if Kelly Slater was here and he'd never done that, and you asked him to do it, he'd probably just do it without even... because he's so gifted with his neurological system. It's nothing. You have a vestibular system, which is kind of like a gyroscope in your inner ear. And that tells your brain, am I... is my head level, essentially. It senses movement. You know, am I moving through space while it's happening? But your brain looks at your vision. Where's the horizon? What am I looking at? Am I moving? To help decide whether you're balanced. And all the information coming from your body—your feet, your entire body awareness—that... all of those inputs into the brain: am I balanced? It tells your body, are you balanced? The better each one of those things are, the better the combination of signals as well. You see surfers that surf through barrels like chandeliers. They can't see, but they still come out. So all of a sudden their vision's gone, but they're still balanced because the body is so good with the other sensory inputs. So in training, we can isolate those. For example, standing on one foot with your eyes closed sort of makes you, forces your brain to go... to only use your vestibular system and your body awareness to, "Am I balanced?" And because we rely on vision so much, most people can't even do that.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, like when, as soon as the water is in your eyes and you can't see, you just give up almost. It's like, that's it. Game over. Yeah, it's powering through. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
But there's so many things like that—if you take a top athlete and get them to do it, they'll just laugh at you. I'm like, "This is easy. Give me something challenging." But most other people just can't do it. So there's a big gap between elite athletes and average athletes. And I think... but the thing is, you can isolate those things and train them now. We know so much about the nervous system and athletic development now. And whilst it's... deadlifting or doing Olympic lifting is so... well, it looks so good on social media, right? Do you know what I mean? It's so, "I wanna be big and strong and lift weights like that" or whatever. But in reality, the pro athletes, they aren't doing much of that. They're actually doing a lot of other stuff and they're naturally gifted in other ways. So you're actually better off, if you're really serious about becoming a better athlete, you're better off working on things like balance and body awareness, even the speed at which your eyes move from there to there, for example. Like if I'm looking down, I look what's in front of me, what's happening down there. If your eyes can literally move from looking down the line, see what that wave's doing to right in front of you, twice as fast and then back and then over there than anyone else, you're taking in more information than other surfers. You're reading the wave on a more detailed level simply because your vision's better. And you make better decisions, time slows down, your body relaxes because you understand your environment more. I mean, it's things like... even average surfers are doing a lot of big wave breath-holding training. Even if they don't have the intention of surfing big waves, the fact that the brain knows that you're comfortable with being underwater for a certain amount of time—every time you go surfing from then on, from that training—you're just so much calmer, you're more relaxed because you're not subconsciously scared of drowning as much. Yeah. Little things like that. So this... anyway, I could go on and on. It's like.
**Silas Gnarside**
I've heard it before, like stacking the confidence, you know, like proving to yourself what you can do that's gonna help you out there. Yeah. And just collecting them, as many as you can, yeah. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Point is there's so much you can do because obviously with surfing, you're limited to there being good waves and sunlight and time off work to go surfing. Yeah. But there's so many other things you can do to get better at surfing, not necessarily directly from a skill perspective, but in terms of increasing the way your body works, your body awareness, your strength, and all those... and just getting better at other sports.
**Silas Gnarside**
Things aren't limited to surfing either. Exactly. So it's win? Yes. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
You find a lot of athletes, they do a lot of other sports as well. And they're always busy, you know, pro surfing, and they're at the golf course or they're playing table tennis or they're doing something else. No.
**Silas Gnarside**
I played a lot of sports. I did ice hockey for like eight years, did soccer, baseball, American football. Yeah. Yeah. I was always playing sports. That was something I was super lucky to have growing up because I just naturally was fit growing up. You know, it was never an issue.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you still play any?
**Silas Gnarside**
No.
**Michael Frampton**
Just surfing?
**Silas Gnarside**
Just surfing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it takes the cake for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Once you've got the bug.
**Silas Gnarside**
It's over. Yeah. I find one of the hardest things with surfing for me is the people. I just like, I wanna go out there and I don't wanna interact, but I want to be interactive enough to be respectful. And like, you know, like I'm not out there to just be the silent asshole who's like, you know, like lurking around. I just, I don't, I'm not there for that, you know? And it happens naturally. And when it does, it's great. But most of the time I'm not like going out with the intention of chit-chatting with somebody for 15 minutes while a bunch of waves go by, you know? I'm like, go. And I'm trying to paddle. And especially at a place like Manu where it's just so busy and there's so many people, you gotta be on, you gotta just go for everything and pick your moments and yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's... I think a lot of newbies to surfing find that culture shock quite strange. Yeah. But it makes sense. Like, because as a surfing coach, coaching new beginners, it's one thing you have to deal with a lot because they just sort of... especially if you want to go out and surf in a crowded lineup and get waves and not be ostracized for it or... my advice is always be friendly to everyone, but don't expect them to be friendly back.
**Silas Gnarside**
Whatever. Yeah, that's a good way to go about it.
**Michael Frampton**
So acknowledge people. You might just give them a nod and they might not even look at you. You can't judge that person on that because they might have been surfing for 20 years every day and that's their one hour a day where they don't want to talk to anyone. They just want to focus on surfing. That's their life, that's their art form. And then when you meet them in the car park, they're the nicest guy ever. But they might... as soon as they put a wetsuit on, so there can be exaggerated mismatches like that in...
**Silas Gnarside**
Surfing. And I think I've definitely... I don't know. I notice it in my life as well. There's just some times where I draw negative attention from somebody and it's never out of a place where I intend to do so. It's always kind of like a... just like a weird, like one-off kind of thing. But I've, yeah, I've definitely pissed some people off in the lineup for sure. I had a dude in Kuaotunu, he tried to like punch me in the water. And I've never experienced anything like that before. In Tofino, it's mostly beach break, so it's pretty spread out. And there's only a handful of like, you know, good surfing. So coming to New Zealand and surfing my first point break with, you know, 40 people and, you know, at least half of them are really good or like, you know, pretty decent, it was, yeah, super challenging. Like facing the fear of surfing over shallow, you know, rocks and dodging 40 people is a very huge leap from the comfort of the beach break where I come from, because there I knew the beach so good and I'd surfed it so many times. I could go out in like a 12 to 14 foot storm swell by myself and I know I'm gonna be okay. But here it's just like it's a whole different ball game and I kind of did get shocked by it quite a bit. It was almost discouraging. Almost. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
That's almost... surfers don't want you to be there because waves are a limited resource. However, having said that, if you prove to them that you can be respectful and that you are in it for the right reasons and that you can share waves, that person who was an absolute twat the first few times they saw you... it might take a year, literally, of you surfing with them every day, they're not even looking at you. And then one day, they'll just... they'll acknowledge you one day and then you might end up being best friends. But it's sort of like... especially the older surfers, because surfing used to be... gosh, even 10 years ago, the wetsuits weren't even that great. Fifteen years ago, the wetsuits weren't that great. And there was no forecasting. Do you know what I mean?
**Silas Gnarside**
I don't.
**Michael Frampton**
Like forecasting.
**Silas Gnarside**
I don't like forecasting at all. I don't like the cams. I don't like the forecast. Because it's like, if you don't have cams and you don't look at the forecast and you just go look for yourself, even if it's shitty, you're probably gonna get in the water, opposed to looking on your camera on your phone and being like, it doesn't look perfect, I'm not gonna go.
**Michael Frampton**
If you're serious about getting better, you'd surf every day in all conditions. And some of the best surfers come from parts of the world where the waves are terrible. Kelly Slater comes from Florida.
**Silas Gnarside**
There's a kid that I surf with in Rags. His name's DeMellon. That's his nickname. And we're usually the only two people out when there's a shitty wind swell and nobody else is in the water. And I'll be out by myself and then he'll paddle out or vice versa. And it's funny, because it's usually him. Like on those shitty days when everybody's like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's usually me and him out there. It's pretty nice. I love surfing shitty swell and then going into work and everybody's like, you surfed? I'm like, yeah. Like how was it? I was like, it's awesome. Like what do you mean? Like, yeah. And they're like, it's supposed to be bad today. Like, yeah. Waves are waves, you know? There's work to be done there. There's improvements to be made. Yeah, always. And I understand that it all comes down to time in the water too. Yes. The more time you spend in the water, the faster you can improve. So I definitely live by that in my routine and everything, for sure. Even on just like half-foot days, borrow a friend's longboard and go and skim. You know, like, yeah. I was trying to always, because.
**Michael Frampton**
Always. You never regret a surf. Yeah. No, you're right. You cannot beat time in the water just...
**Silas Gnarside**
And I've got a lot of catching up to do too. So it's like, it really... like, I've got that fire under me and yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And even if you don't catch any waves, it's still worth it because you... pattern recognition, you're reading the ocean, you're trying to catch waves. That wave did a weird thing. And then you look, it was because it was this period. And then one day when it's pumping, you might get a little wind chop on the wave and you know how to negotiate it because you've surfed so many junky conditions and you knew that was coming because you're so familiar with the break and you've seen that wave pop up in that weird place or whatever. And so your time in the water, you cannot...
**Silas Gnarside**
Substitute. I think that's hard as well though. Like having the money to be able to travel and to surf in different places is obviously like kind of like the surfer's dream to just like go to different countries and surf, you know, really nice breaks. But you don't get familiar with one place, you know? Like staying in a place for a long time and getting really familiar with just one break. So it's a lot of like... I feel like always kind of being sort of fluid in that sense of like, you never really know what you're getting, kind of, you know? And like being in a new place at a break that you've never surfed with people who don't know you. I feel like experiencing that over and over again, it's almost like the first time over and over again.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta have a home break. Yeah. Obviously travel's amazing and important.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Home break.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. I like that.
**Michael Frampton**
Even if it's a different home break every year.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Like, I mean, if I was you, I'd be emailing the Four Seasons in the Maldives saying, hey, do you need a sous chef?
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, to move to French Polynesia so bad.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I wanted.
**Silas Gnarside**
I told the guy on my way out of the country when he stamped my passport, I was like, I need to find a wife. And he's like, you'll find one in there. And he pointed to the waiting room. I was like, all right. Didn't find a wife though. Not yet.
**Michael Frampton**
No. You said you wanted Hawaiian though. You gotta go.
**Silas Gnarside**
Hawaii. I'd settle for French Polynesia. Yeah, I'd settle for French Polynesia. I think that'd be... like I said, it's very loose—professional surfing, marrying a Hawaiian. It's just kind of like, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, if you want to reach high, you've got to aim high.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Have you been to Hawaii?
**Silas Gnarside**
Twice, yeah. So once when I was 12 and that was when I went to Maui. Super beautiful, but pretty touristy and like American kind of modern. And then Kauai. Kauai, I really loved Kauai. It's called the Garden Island.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, I've been there. Yeah, and.
**Silas Gnarside**
It's so good. All the jungle and like the localism. And yeah, I really liked it there. It did still have that touch of, you know, tourism for sure, but I found it a lot more enjoyable. Like easier on the eyes, a little bit more friendly.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's a gem. Yeah. Yeah. You surfing there?
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah. I did a lesson and then I actually, I did really good on my lesson. And I thought the next day I'd take an eight-footer instead of a nine-footer. And the swell had picked up as well. And I went back to the same beach and it was like I didn't even recognize the beach because of how different it was. It had rained. So all of the debris from the river had flowed into the water. So it changed the color of the water. And the waves were probably like four times bigger than when I was doing my lesson, you know? So they looked huge and I was like, okay, here we go. You know? And I was by myself and I just kind of sent it and I could barely balance on the eight-foot. And I was like, what is this? Like, it's only a foot of difference. Like how could it be that much less stable? Because on the nine-foot, it's like a tank. It's like a rock. It's not going anywhere. Yeah. And then I thought eight-footer, surely eight-footer, no problem. And I shocked myself. I was like, whoa. Like, and I didn't catch a single wave that day because I was so uncomfortable and out of my depth, it felt like. And I tried to paddle for a wave, but I couldn't commit to it, you know? I was too scared. And that was at 14. And I think that's probably the hardest thing about surfing is shutting the fear off, hey. Like you really have to like swallow it in that split moment, you know, when you go to catch a wave and you're looking down the line and then you see it, it's like that make or break moment. Like you either gotta like take a breath and fucking go for it, or you just gotta, you know, pull out or eat shit or whatever it is. But it's so intense, that moment of just like letting it go and just going for it. It's unreal. And I'm familiar with the sensation from other aspects of my life, but not on that level of intensity. It's such a, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's a big roadblock to people's development in surfing is fear, whether they realize it or not. Yeah. Yeah. It's good awareness though. Yeah. You would have noticed it on steroids in Tahiti with the clear water and the shallow reef.
**Silas Gnarside**
Unbelievable in Tahiti, because I've only surfed in like Canada, the water's not super clear. It's like dark blue, you know? And same with here in New Zealand, like you do get some clear days, especially on the East Coast, but like on the West Coast, usually it's pretty murky. Yeah. But Tahiti is like another level. Like you're on the wave and you can't tell the middle of the wave from the bottom of the wave because it's so glassy, see-through. And it's just like, yeah. Insane. And I think that trip was very substantial for me. It was very like a pivotal point for me because it was like, I can go and I can surf a wave like that. And I really did a lot better than I thought I would. You know, like I took myself by surprise and I was just like, I just couldn't even believe it. It was like, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So how did you overcome? How do you deal with fear?
**Silas Gnarside**
I think it's kind of similar to like instead of feeling like you're not where you're supposed to be or like you want to be somewhere, but you're not there yet. And instead of appreciating how far you've come to get where you are now, you're worried about the next thing. I kind of feel like it's similar to that. Like every wave that I ever didn't take because I was scared, I regretted it. And it's like, it's such an in-the-moment thing, but to like be present enough to remind yourself that you can't listen to the fear is, I'd say, as difficult as staying in the present and not appreciating what you have and where you've come from, opposed to where you want to be.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. It's essentially what it is, being in the present moment. Yeah. Because even if you were thinking half a second into the future while you're paddling into a wave, yeah, it's taking you away from...
**Silas Gnarside**
Every time I go to do my pop-up and I'm already thinking about, you know, my first maneuver, I just lose it. It's... you gotta be just like... yeah, you've really gotta... and I think I've experienced moments in the kitchen where I'm on, like I'm in the zone, I'm in my flow state. It's happened like twice, you know? And I always try and like, in those kinds of moments, like what was different? What did I have for breakfast that day? You know, like what led to that? And it's an interesting dynamic in the kitchen as well, because you can enter the flow state as a team. And not just in the kitchen, but, you know, in general. So it's, yeah, it's a very interesting thing because it's attainable and there is a way to get there, but going through the trial and error of figuring out how to like always be there is super challenging and super frustrating because you know you can do it, but a lot of the time you just can't. Like that's what it feels like to me.
**Michael Frampton**
Elusive. Yeah. Is. There's been some good books written on it though. Like *The Rise of Superman*, great book. Actually, Steven Kotler has written a couple of books. His most recent one is called *NAR Country*, where he teaches himself and a bunch of older people, 50 plus I think, skiers, to start park skiing.
**Silas Gnarside**
Just like normal skiers? Who's...
**Michael Frampton**
Never skied a park and has never slid a rail or anything.
**Silas Gnarside**
Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
And he teaches them how to do it. Cool. He taught himself how to do it. Everyone said, "No, you're too old to learn how to park ski. What are you talking about? You'll break a hip." And he did that. And he threw just... because you enter the flow state when you're being challenged enough to not be boring, but not so much that you're gonna hurt yourself or you fail. It's that sweet spot. I think he says it's between three and four percent. Yeah. Challenge—like it has to be a little bit harder than yesterday, but not so hard that you're just gonna fail or hurt yourself.
**Silas Gnarside**
And I feel like surfing is all that, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. For sure. Because even if you get the same waves every day, you can still surf deeper or you can always... yeah, it's like the wave is a canvas for whatever you wanna do on it, whether it's longboard or shortboard or whatever. So yeah, that's a good awareness too, flow state stuff. There's plenty of reading to be done on that too. There's other things. He even started an institute—I forget what it's called—where they really studied flow states. And I think there's a list of 12 things that need to happen in order for you to increase the chances of entering flow state.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah, there's actually a girl in Raglan, I can't remember her name or the name of her company, but she does that. She does like flow state training, whatever that would entail. Yeah. And immediately I just went to individualism, like she's doing one-on-ones with people. And I kind of said something that made it obvious that I'd made an assumption. And she was like, "No, like I do whole teams of people, like kitchens." She gave off a little list of environments that you would do that in. And it's quite interesting. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
It's really fascinating, the flow state science. Yeah, I took a deep dive years ago and I learned a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's key if you wanna... in surfing, it usually sort of... it often just happens.
**Silas Gnarside**
Automatically.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, naturally.
**Silas Gnarside**
But I think you definitely tell when it doesn't. That day that I was out was probably the worst surfing that I had in a really long time. And it was super big swell—a video that blew up. I was on the inside, that wave that I caught. The ones out back were like twice the size and like super heavy. And there were so many, like, just balls in the air. Like crazy, like good surfing out there on their guns. I was on my little 5'10 because my step-up's out of commission. And I had like four hours sleep. I was like a little bit hungover, I think. And I just... my head was not there at all. It was a really tough day in the water for me. And then it blew up for like no reason. And I was like, why? Like, why that day, you know? Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yeah, ironic a little bit.
**Michael Frampton**
Life is mysterious. Yeah. Especially surfing. So how long are you in Raglan for?
**Silas Gnarside**
I leave on the 7th of January, going down to the South Island. Yeah. I'm probably gonna spend most of my time in Dunedin and the Catlins.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Have you got a job down there?
**Silas Gnarside**
Not yet.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, just winging it.
**Silas Gnarside**
Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And I don't even have like a financial cushion to wing it but I'm just gonna wing it anyways. You know, like I...
**Michael Frampton**
Just—You're young and single, who cares?
**Silas Gnarside**
But not even like that. I just, opposed to like trying to force things, I really like making decisions and seeing how my environment responds to me. Because like I said, when we were calling earlier, I just feel like sometimes you feel a lot of resistance when you make a decision or like, maybe some signs that it's not a good idea. And sometimes you make a decision and everything just kind of clicks into place, almost like a domino effect, like the shuffling of the cards, you know? And yeah, I'm just kind of following that.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. I think you're gonna do good, man. You'll do fine.
**Silas Gnarside**
Hope so. Yeah. But if I don't, it's okay. You know, I'm just here for it. Yeah. Good or the bad. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. Tell us your Instagram handle.
**Silas Gnarside**
It is surfandipitous.
**Michael Frampton**
Can you spell that?
**Silas Gnarside**
S-U-R-F-E-N-D-I-P-I-T-O-U-S.
**Michael Frampton**
I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
**Silas Gnarside**
Awesome. Yeah, I like it. It's like serendipity. Yeah. It's a good thing. Surf and surfing, I figured they go pretty good together. That's how I came up with the handle, yeah. Awesome.
**Michael Frampton**
I love it. And I urge everyone to give you a follow and follow your journey. And I think there's a lot of my listeners who will be interested to see what's possible. And, you know, I think we'll all be able to learn something by following.
**Silas Gnarside**
Nice. Yeah. I'm super excited. And thank you.
**Michael Frampton**
Sweet.
**Silas Gnarside**
I appreciate.
**Michael Frampton**
Sweet. Thanks for coming by. Yeah.

106 Surf Everyday Until Sponsored - Silas’s Bold Mission
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**105 Dr. Tim Brown + Taylor Knox + Michael Rintala - Surfing Longevity** Dec 19, 2024

Are you unknowingly sabotaging your surfing longevity by ignoring the basics of movement, breath, and recovery?
Whether you're an everyday surfer or a former pro, staying in the water pain-free takes more than just stoke. This episode explores why surfers lose performance as they age — and how to reverse that decline with tools from DNS, meditation, and vibration therapy.
Learn why Taylor Knox swears by Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) and a robotic knee replacement for his return to pain-free surfing.
Discover Dr. Tim Brown’s top three non-negotiable tools for energy, healing, and cellular health.
Understand how blending DNS with Kelee meditation can supercharge your movement quality and mental clarity.
Tap into this episode now to learn the tools surf legends and top practitioners use to think, move, and feel better—so you can surf for life.
Surfing longevity tips from 3 experienced legends of the surf world;
https://www.rintalamovementdesigns.com/mindset-and-movement-masterclass
Dr Tim Brown - WSL Medical Director and treating Doctor
https://www.instagram.com/tbsportscare/
Taylor Knox - Pro Surfer
https://www.instagram.com/taylor_knox/?hl=en
Dr. Michael Rintala - WSL Treating Doctor, movement and rehab specialist.
https://www.instagram.com/rintala_movementflow/?hl=en
For more details and to book tickets:
https://www.rintalamovementdesigns.com/mindset-and-movement-masterclass
More surfing tips: www.surfmastery.com
**Key Points**
Discussion of the upcoming Mind and Movement Masterclass, featuring Dr. Tim Brown, Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, and Ron Rathburn, aimed at improving longevity, movement, and mental well-being through surf-inspired techniques.
Dr. Tim Brown's approach to working with high-profile clients like Neil Young, focusing on a holistic view of health encompassing diet, mindset, and physical activity.
Discussion on the importance of hydration, quality sleep, and proper breathing techniques as foundational health practices.
Dr. Tim Brown shares insights on the use of vibrational and frequency-based therapies, including sound therapy and tapping, for enhancing physical and mental well-being.
Emphasis on the concept of 'greatness' in sports and the sacrifices required, contrasting it with the pursuit of 'good' and 'better' for the average athlete.
Details about the upcoming Mind and Movement Masterclass, including venue, participants, and topics to be covered such as diet, movement, meditation, and surf technique.
Taylor Knox discusses his recent knee surgery using advanced robotic technology, highlighting the benefits and the rehabilitation process.
Advice on surfing longevity, emphasizing the importance of mindset and stress management in the healing and rehabilitation process.
Explanation of the integration of Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) with meditation practices to enhance movement efficiency and overall performance.
Discussion on the benefits of vestibular and ocular training in conjunction with DNS for improved sensory input and motor pattern expression.
**Outline**
**Introduction of Guests and Event Promotion**
Michael Frampton introduced the guests: Taylor Knox, Dr. Michael Rintala, and Dr. Tim Brown.
The guests are participating in a Mind and Movement Masterclass titled 'Longevity Tools to Think, Move and Feel Better Throughout Life', to be held in Carlsbad, Southern California on November 16, 2024.
The event is promoted through Rintalamovementdesigns.com and links provided in the show notes.
**Discussion on Dr. Tim Brown's Work with Neil Young**
Dr. Tim Brown has been working with Neil Young for about 12 years.
The work involves overall health maintenance, focusing on diet, lifestyle, and physical activities to keep Neil Young active and healthy.
Neil Young's passion for music is paralleled with surfers' passion for the sport, emphasizing the dedication and effort behind their respective crafts.
**Dr. Tim Brown's Background and Philosophy**
Dr. Tim Brown graduated from chiropractic college in December 1983 and began working with surfers in 1984 at the TDK Gotcha Pro ASP Pro in Oahu, Hawaii.
His approach to health and wellness is holistic, focusing on diet, mindset, and movement.
He emphasizes the importance of hydration, quality sleep, and proper breathing techniques for overall health.
Dr. Brown advocates for a balanced diet, including moderation in food choices and an emphasis on clean, easily digestible foods.
He highlights the significance of being present in the moment and finding joy in the process of life and sports.
**Innovative Health and Fitness Technologies**
Dr. Tim Brown discusses emerging technologies like NuX Technologies, which uses vibration and frequency to enhance physical performance and recovery.
He mentions the Shift Wave machine, a chair that uses guided breath work to improve focus, energy, and readiness for various activities.
Sound therapy, specifically NOW Sound Therapy, is highlighted for its ability to induce deep meditation and balance brain waves through different frequencies.
**Importance of Body Awareness and Listening to the Body**
Dr. Tim Brown stresses the importance of being attuned to the body's signals and messages, suggesting that the body often communicates needs and issues before they become severe.
He encourages individuals to recognize and respond to these signals, promoting a proactive approach to health and wellness.
**Balancing Greatness and Normalcy**
Dr. Tim Brown shares insights from Kobe Bryant about the sacrifices required for greatness, emphasizing that true greatness often requires forgoing balance and normalcy.
He discusses the importance of understanding and accepting these sacrifices for those aspiring to achieve greatness in any field.
**Mind and Movement Masterclass Details**
The Mind and Movement Masterclass is a collaborative effort featuring Dr. Tim Brown, Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, Matt Griggs, and Ron Rathbun.
The event will cover topics such as diet, movement, nutrition, sleep, surf technique, Kili meditation, and dynamic neuromuscular stabilization (DNS).
The masterclass aims to provide attendees with practical tools and insights to improve their surfing performance and overall well-being.
The event will be held at Viore's new headquarters, featuring an outdoor amphitheater and will include prizes, giveaways, and good food.
**Taylor Knox's Recent Injuries and Recovery**
Taylor Knox discusses recent injuries, including a torn adductor, a hamstring tear, and a sore hip.
He shares his experience with a partial knee replacement using the Mako robot, which significantly improved his knee condition and allowed him to return to surfing pain-free.
Knox credits his recovery to the help of Mike Rintala and Gina Stinko, who used active release technique (ART) in his rehabilitation.
**Advice for Surfing Longevity**
Taylor Knox emphasizes the importance of mindset and emotional well-being in the healing process, advising against self-criticism and encouraging a positive outlook.
He suggests focusing on personal goals and finding inner peace as key factors in overcoming challenges and achieving longevity in surfing.
**Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) and Its Benefits**
Michael Rintala explains DNS as a method to improve movement efficiency by allowing the expression of inborn motor patterns controlled by the central nervous system.
He highlights the similarities between DNS and meditation, both aiming to reduce unnecessary effort and allow natural, efficient movement.
Rintala discusses the importance of balancing the mind and body to achieve durability and longevity in movement quality.
**Integration of Vestibular and Ocular Training with DNS**
Michael Rintala acknowledges the benefits of vestibular and ocular training as part of somatosensory input, enhancing the quality of movement.
He plans to integrate DNS concepts with courses from Dr. Cobb on ocular and vestibular training, aiming to improve overall movement efficiency and awareness.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. We have a special episode this episode. We have three guests. Of course, we have Taylor Knox, the legendary Taylor Knox, coming back on the show. We have Dr. Michael Rintala coming back on the show, and for the first appearance, we have Dr. Tim Brown. He's one of the co-medical directors of the WSL and a treating physician there as well. And these three gentlemen plus Ron Rathbun, who was a previous guest on the show back in episode 57, the founder of Key Meditation—these four gentlemen are getting together for a mind and movement masterclass, *Longevity Tools to Think, Move and Feel Better Throughout Life*, which is happening in Southern California in Carlsbad on November the 16th, 2024. An event I wish... I could make it to. And to find out more and to book tickets to that, you can go to rintalamovementdesigns.com and of course a link in the show notes and on the website to go straight to that. But following is the next best thing. We get to hear from Taylor Knox, Michael Rintala and Tim Brown in this episode. And you can go back and listen to Taylor Knox's first appearance in episode 31 and 46—he appeared as well. For a more detailed and deeper interview with Michael Rintala and DNS, you can go back to episode 50. And this will be Tim Brown's first appearance on the show. But if you're a surf nerd, you would have heard the name Tim Brown before. He's been one of the treating physicians and the medical director of the WSL for quite some time. And he's developed his own treatment stuff. He works very holistically with clients. He has a huge resume. You can go to TBSportsCare—that's @tbsportscare on Instagram—to find out more about Tim. I will have links in the show notes for more stuff about Tim as well. So he will be the first interview in this episode. I was going for a surf last week and wanted to do a double session. So I had two wetsuits in the car and my Flat Rock wetsuit was already wet, so I slipped on one of my other suits. I hadn't worn anything else apart from my Flat Rock wetsuit since I got it, but putting this other wetsuit on made me realize just how hard it is to put on other wetsuits. And it's another little bonus I noticed about these Flat Rock wetsuits. Not only are these ultra comfortable and warm, but it's so easy to put on and to take off. That saves time. And if you want a discount on a brand new Flat Rock Guaranteed for Life wetsuit, use discount code MASTER15. That's MASTER15 at checkout. You can go to flatrockwetsuits.com.au. Link for that is in the show notes of course. And... I will now fade in my conversation with Dr. Tim Brown. We ease into this conversation. A little bit of talk about Neil Young.
**Michael Frampton**
...hell young on, is it, say Zuma Beach underneath?
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah. Yeah. One of my... one of my patients, one of my good friends actually. Super honored to somehow fall into his life and be part of his tour and part of his life, actually, in his wedding and all that stuff. He married an actress named Daryl Hannah, who my wife grew up with. They're both actors. And so she got together with Neil and all of a sudden now we're, you know, we're sharing wives and husbands.
**Michael Frampton**
Not literally, I hope.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm sorry. It's such a nice part of the world. I surfed Zuma Beach every day for four years.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
No way. Really?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's what caught my eye.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Nice. Yeah. Did you run into Bob Dylan out there too? Flea and Coldplay. Chris Martin was out surfing Point Loma every day with no shirt on in the middle of winter.
**Michael Frampton**
No way, really?
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah, Mike D... I think the D stands for douchebag, by the way. He would just drop in on anyone, but you know.
**Michael Frampton**
No, I never did. No. I ran into Anthony Kiedis and Flea and Coldplay. Chris Martin was out surfing Point Loma every day with no shirt on in the middle of winter.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah, Mike D... I think the D stands for douchebag, by the way. He would just drop in on anyone, but you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, there's always one.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
The Beastie Boys, anyway. So, were you treating Neil like on his tour? Is that what you're alluding to?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I never liked the Beastie Boys anyway, so. Were you treating Neil like on his tour? Is that what you're alluding to? Honor just to be in the same room. Alone. Get close to him and find out a little bit about what makes him tick and watch his process of him writing and, you know, it's just, he's just one of us, man. He's just a surfer without a surfboard. You know, he has the same mentality and he's always looking for the next great ride, whatever that may be. And, you know, such a great champion for human rights and nature and the earth in general. So it's not hard to get wrapped up into his groove for sure.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah, I've been working with him for the last, I don't know, 12 years or so. And, you know, just such a great honor just to be in the same room. Alone. Get close to him and find out a little bit about what makes him tick and watch his process of him writing and, you know, it's just, he's just one of us, man. He's just a surfer without a surfboard. You know, he has the same mentality and he's always looking for the next great ride, whatever that may be. And, you know, such a great champion for human rights and nature and the earth in general. So it's not hard to get wrapped up into his groove for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. In what capacity? Like from a bodywork, like keeping his body in check capacity? Is that what you're working with him? Yeah. The long-term physical manifestation of what we eat, think and do. And there's no way around it, you know. And so looking at all the things he does on a regular basis from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed, what are the things that he could do to amplify his life, to amplify the things he loves to do. And like, you know, what are the best nutrients to keep his inflammation down? You know, as we get older, we get a lot of chronic stuff and he's not, he's... and they're not getting any younger. So he's almost 80. And so he wants to be, you know, his mind is... he's a teenager. You know, he wants to get out there and jam and play with the boys and whether that's jamming in the barn or, you know, swimming laps or whatever it might be. He's down. He just, you know... He's just, he realizes that the body's a temple. And you really have to respect it as best you can. And he had a couple of rough years back in the day, you know. Back in the '60s and '70s, when there were just no limits on, you know, experimenting with your mind and body, you know, he rode that wave, so to speak. And now... and, you know, has a lot of great wisdom from it. But he wants to, you know, he wants to keep active. He wants to keep his attitude alive and really relate to things everybody else can. And so... he's a good dude.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Kind of an overall, you know, we become... you know, as part of our talk here that we're doing with the boys. But, you know, we become the long-term physical manifestation of what we eat, think and do. And there's no way around it, you know. And so looking at all the things he does on a regular basis from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed, what are the things that he could do to amplify his life, to amplify the things he loves to do. And like, you know, what are the best nutrients to keep his inflammation down? You know, as we get older, we get a lot of chronic stuff and he's not, he's... and they're not getting any younger. So he's almost 80. And so he wants to be, you know, his mind is... he's a teenager. You know, he wants to get out there and jam and play with the boys and whether that's jamming in the barn or, you know, swimming laps or whatever it might be. He's down. He just, you know... He's just, he realizes that the body's a temple. And you really have to respect it as best you can. And he had a couple of rough years back in the day, you know. Back in the '60s and '70s, when there were just no limits on, you know, experimenting with your mind and body, you know, he rode that wave, so to speak. And now... and, you know, has a lot of great wisdom from it. But he wants to, you know, he wants to keep active. He wants to keep his attitude alive and really relate to things everybody else can. And so... he's a good dude.
**Michael Frampton**
Good man. I mean, obviously he's still passionate about, like, that. He wants to, when he does get on stage and perform, he wants to do it well. Never, you know, I've never caught enough waves ever. And so that's him with music. And it's just great to see those parallels and the passion, you know, that comes from it.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
He's a grump. Like, you know, he's like me, probably you too. I got a fucking problem. Okay. I like to surf a lot. And I've never, you know, I've never caught enough waves ever. And so that's him with music. And it's just great to see those parallels and the passion, you know, that comes from it. Their whole lives are dedicated to making sure that the songs are good, the performance is right, the singing on pitch, the body's connected when they do it. They probably don't even eat from, you know, six hours before they're due to sing because of the way that it might affect that. There's so much that goes on behind that, and that's the same for surfers, which is what sort of, you know, why you're here on this show. The surfers, they have that same mentality. We think they are just these talented athletes that just go out and surf, but there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. And I spoke with Taylor yesterday and he said that whenever he was on tour and whenever he goes to an event nowadays, every single athlete just wants to be treated by you. Everyone's like, "Where's Tim? My body, I need Tim." Why is that?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I think it alludes to something which a lot of us sometimes don't realize. We might think Neil Young, he's just a talented musician who just, you know, he can just sit down and sing and pick up a guitar whenever he wants. But there's actually a lot that goes on behind it. And there's, you know, their whole lives are dedicated to making sure that the songs are good, the performance is right, the singing on pitch, the body's connected when they do it. They probably don't even eat from, you know, six hours before they're due to sing because of the way that it might affect that. There's so much that goes on behind that, and that's the same for surfers, which is what sort of, you know, why you're here on this show. The surfers, they have that same mentality. We think they are just these talented athletes that just go out and surf, but there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. And I spoke with Taylor yesterday and he said that whenever he was on tour and whenever he goes to an event nowadays, every single athlete just wants to be treated by you. Everyone's like, "Where's Tim? My body, I need Tim." Why is that? Repetitions to understand the human condition and how to approach it and how to speak the language so that you're not just sounding like you bought a lot of 29 cent words. You want to sound... the master of educator is able to teach a six-year-old kid something. They're able to teach that kid something that it can repeat it back. And so for me, it's been a lifetime goal, at least career-wise, to be able to break my big long words down into words that are easily digestible and they're going to be meaningful in the long term. So I think that maybe that's part of it. And then of course, just being around probably longer than a lot of guys, you know, to help these athletes. I've started working with guys that were riding single fins basically, you know, and then the thruster came out. And that was kind of the beginning of my sports medicine. And so you've seen surfing change so much since, you know, that's the '80s. It's been just wild. My inspiration, Jerry Lopez—you can see my Bolt board behind me and my poster of Jerry behind me there, him surfing out in front of his house. You know, that was my inspiration. And so it continues to drag me along with it. As well as seeing all the inspiration coming from the new kids in town that are just mind-blowing athletes that have decided to take surfing on instead of going into the ball-and-stick sports and have just lit the sport on fire. I mean, what's next? What are they going to do next? I don't know. All I know is it's not the same sport I started with. That's for darn sure. The other thing—I’m a surfer. I grew up surfing. My dad was a surfer, and I think speaking the language and understanding the nomenclature and knowing when to keep your trap shut and just be humble is really important. And I think if the surfers get a load of that and they see that, then they're a lot more comfortable with you as well. And they're more curious about what makes this guy tick? So I think just living the things that I talked about is probably the most powerful example as opposed to speaking a lot of.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
That's just super kind. I think, you know, I mean, I've been there for a minute. In fact, I think I sent you a couple pictures today just to give you some flavor of kind of where it started. You know, I graduated from chiropractic college in 1983, in December 1983. And in 1984, I got asked to work at the TDK Gotcha Pro ASP Pro at Sandy Beach on Oahu in Hawaii. And that was kind of the beginning of the end, so to speak, for me. You know, the beginning of falling in love with the other side of surfing—the preparation for surfing, the recovery from surfing, the aspirational pieces of surfing. I got put front and center with some of the best athletes in the world and was asked to work with them. And I'm just out of school. And I don't know about a lot of docs, but when I got out of school, I had all this education, but I didn't know what I was doing. You know, I mean, I was a surfer. I was an often-injured ex-athlete, but it takes a lot of time. That's why they call it a practice. I mean, it takes a lot of repetitions to understand the human condition and how to approach it and how to speak the language so that you're not just sounding like you bought a lot of 29 cent words. You want to sound... the master of educator is able to teach a six-year-old kid something. They're able to teach that kid something that it can repeat it back. And so for me, it's been a lifetime goal, at least career-wise, to be able to break my big long words down into words that are easily digestible and they're going to be meaningful in the long term. So I think that maybe that's part of it. And then of course, just being around probably longer than a lot of guys, you know, to help these athletes. I've started working with guys that were riding single fins basically, you know, and then the thruster came out. And that was kind of the beginning of my sports medicine. And so you've seen surfing change so much since, you know, that's the '80s. It's been just wild. My inspiration, Jerry Lopez—you can see my Bolt board behind me and my poster of Jerry behind me there, him surfing out in front of his house. You know, that was my inspiration. And so it continues to drag me along with it. As well as seeing all the inspiration coming from the new kids in town that are just mind-blowing athletes that have decided to take surfing on instead of going into the ball-and-stick sports and have just lit the sport on fire. I mean, what's next? What are they going to do next? I don't know. All I know is it's not the same sport I started with. That's for darn sure. The other thing—I’m a surfer. I grew up surfing. My dad was a surfer, and I think speaking the language and understanding the nomenclature and knowing when to keep your trap shut and just be humble is really important. And I think if the surfers get a load of that and they see that, then they're a lot more comfortable with you as well. And they're more curious about what makes this guy tick? So I think just living the things that I talked about is probably the most powerful example as opposed to speaking a lot of.
**Michael Frampton**
Words. Seminar that you're involved in that's up and coming. What's some of those lessons that you've learned through that journey that you hope to impart to the everyday athlete who's going to come along to see this and participate? For pleasure. And what are those foods? And, you know, how much of them should you have? So understanding your diet preferences and the things that you really need to do have to come together. And we get a whole new body on the inside every year. Our body's constantly dying off and remaking itself. And we get a chance to dictate what those cells look like. Do we want to have fast food McDonald's cells or do we want to have these juicy, quality, hydrated, high-energy cells? And so for me, especially as time goes on, I want to get rid of the former and really latch onto the latter—those cells that are going to make my cells. Now, I'm almost 70, so when I get to 70, I want those cells to be as bright and shiny as possible. And we have the ability to do that. And it's all based upon choice and education. So, teaching people how to do it without making it complex is really kind of my job. And I think that you go through and see a lot of these trends coming through training and coming through what we wear and what we eat and how we breathe and all that stuff. It all comes back to the basics. It always seems to swing back to the basics, you know—the primal food thing and all this stuff that goes on for trends. And I think it has its value, especially for some people and what their needs are, but it always comes back to the basics. It never really gets away from that too far. So eating the right carbohydrates, the right fats, the right proteins, cutting things out of your diet that are on our planet that we were meant to eat—I'm not a big fan of that. I'm a fan of moderation. You know, I lean into the vegan vegetarian side of things. And so that's kind of my drift that I go into. But some people—my NFL guys and whatnot that really want to put on a lot of weight and stay thick and kind of be in that old school—I just make sure that what they're eating is as clean as possible and as easy for the body to process and absorb as possible too. So it comes down to what we call the biopsychosocial. That means where are you from and what did your parents do and how did you grow up? All those things make a big difference too. So you don't want to come in and change somebody 180 degrees today to make them better, to make them do what Kelly's doing or do what Mick's doing or those guys, you know. You really have to find your own niche and you really have to find your own rhythm and synchrony. And it's the same thing for the mind. You know, as far as keeping people in the moment. You know, that's our goal. That's where life is lived. You can't be happy unless you're in the moment. So for me, happiness is my goal. So I had to figure out how am I going to live my life in that pocket? How am I going to make sure that I'm planning for the future and that I'm learning from the past, but that I spend the predominant amount of time where life is lived? And that's right here, right now with you. And so being able to have that mindset so that when you do find those things that you love—those peak experiences, those things that we really live for—I mean, who's not going to want to maximize those moments? And so, you know, that mental part is key. And then the doing part—what do you do all day? How do you prepare yourself for surf and for life and for business and all that stuff? What do you do? What are the shapes that you put your body in all day? Because that really has a whole bunch to do with how I'm going to recommend any kind of training. How much time do you spend on your devices, at the desk, watching TV, sitting on the couch? Those things—your body will mold to that. Your body—we adapt. Like I said, a whole new body every year. If you want to spend a year on the couch, guess what you look like at the end of the year? You know, it looks like you spent a year on the couch. You know, your body's folded forward, everything's contracting. So, you know, we are highly specific to adapting to our environment. And so we want to make sure that if I'm looking at your environment, what do you do? What's your day look like? What kind of bed do you sleep in? What kind of chair are you in? And how much time do you spend in it? So I recommend everybody spends a lot of time on the floor. That is the thing. If we look at what we lose as we get older, we lose the ability to get off the fucking floor. Excuse my French. But I really want to emphasize that. We become afraid of the floor. And that's an issue. So, spending time on the floor makes you get up from the floor and makes that less fearful for you. And I know that's going from one extreme—surfing—to, okay, now we're starting to end life here. But that's the truth. And we become fearful of moving. So movement, therefore, is life. And life is movement. So everything that I do kind of always spirals back into movement. And spiral is a big thing too. Not only does spiral make up the waves, but it's how our bodies are formed. There's a number system in the body called the Fibonacci sequence, and it's known as the golden ratio or sacred geometry. It's kind of how the universe is made up. And we are part of that universe. And guess what? We're made up of the same thing. And that's vibration and frequency and energy. Everything organic in the universe has those three principles. And so that's what we're made up of. So I'm really into looking at the dynamics of healing with that in mind. You know, how does our frequency change when we drop in our health? Our immune system drops, our body's not able to handle the stress it was before. And then what do we do to vibrate it back into life? And you'll be seeing a lot of those things come out in the near future about how vibration—key frequency and vibration—like your nerves vibrate at a different frequency than your muscle does. And your organs—heart, lung, liver—they all have their own frequencies. So the way that we keep the frequencies up is to be in good environments, have a good mindset, and hydrate. Because if you don't hydrate, you can't vibrate. So I see three things that happen in people—relatively simple things everybody can do for free—to enhance their life starting today. And that's to make sure that you've hydrated half your body weight in ounces. I would say sleep is the other big deal, right? You've got to get seven to nine hours of sleep. It's compulsory. You have to do it. And you have to learn how to make it high-quality sleep too. Because when you're sleeping, your brain's scrubbing itself. It's going through all these different wave patterns in your brain to clean itself up and flush stuff out of there so you can get ready for the next day. So having a high quality of sleep is really important. And then the third thing is just breathing right—nose breathing, diaphragmatic breathing. I mean, those three things, if I could turn the world onto that and just deliver and say, hey, here's the most special thing that you can do, I know it would elevate. It would raise all the ships in the harbor. You know, it would elevate everybody's life, everybody's vibration, everybody's attitude and all that stuff. And I know that's highly simplistic information. But we've got to start somewhere. And so that's a great way to start with one's health—just looking at those three things.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, we go back to those three things again. You know, if we're talking about what you eat, you know, it's talking about the foods that give you energy, not foods that you eat for pleasure. And what are those foods? And, you know, how much of them should you have? So understanding your diet preferences and the things that you really need to do have to come together. And we get a whole new body on the inside every year. Our body's constantly dying off and remaking itself. And we get a chance to dictate what those cells look like. Do we want to have fast food McDonald's cells, or do we want to have these juicy, quality, hydrated, high-energy cells? And so for me, especially as time goes on, I want to get rid of the former and really latch onto the latter—those cells that are going to make my cells. Now I'm almost 70, so when I get to 70, I want those cells to be as bright and shiny as possible. And we have the ability to do that. And it's all based upon choice and education. So teaching people how to do it without making it complex is really kind of my job. And I think that you go through and see a lot of these trends coming through training and coming through what we wear and what we eat and how we breathe and all that stuff. It all comes back to the basics. It always seems to swing back to the basics. You know, the primal food thing and all this stuff, you know, that goes on for trends, and I think it has its value, especially for some people and what their needs are, but it always comes back to the basics. It never really gets away from that too far. So eating the right carbohydrates, the right fats, the right proteins, cutting things out of your diet that are on our planet that we were meant to eat—I'm not a big fan of that. I'm a fan of moderation. You know, I lean into the vegan vegetarian side of things. And so that's kind of my drift that I go into. But some people, you know, my NFL guys and whatnot that really want to put on a lot of weight and stay thick and kind of be in that old school, I just make sure that what they're eating is as clean as possible and as easy for the body to process and absorb as possible too. So it comes down to what we call the biopsychosocial. That means where are you from and what did your parents do and how did you grow up? All those things make a big difference too. So you don't want to come in and change somebody 180 degrees today to make them better, to make them do what Kelly's doing or do what Mick's doing or those guys, you know. You really have to find your own niche and you really have to find your own rhythm and synchrony. And it's the same thing for the mind. You know, as far as keeping people in the moment. You know, that's our goal. That's where life is lived. You can't be happy unless you're in the moment. So for me, happiness is my goal. So I had to figure out how am I going to live my life in that pocket? How am I going to make sure that I'm planning for the future and that I'm learning from the past, but that I spend the predominant amount of time where life is lived? And that's right here, right now with you. And so being able to have that mindset so that when you do find those things that you love—those peak experiences, those things that we really live for—you know, I mean, who's not going to want to maximize those moments? And so, you know, that mental part is key. And then, and the doing part—what do you do all day? How do you prepare yourself for surf and for life and for business and all that stuff? What do you do? What are the shapes that you put your body in all day? Because that really has a whole bunch to do with how I'm going to recommend any kind of training. How much time do you spend on your devices, at the desk, watching TV, sitting on the couch? Those things—your body will mold to that. Your body—we adapt. Like I said, a whole new body every year. If you want to spend a year on the couch, guess what you look like at the end of the year? You know, it looks like you spent a year on the couch. You know, your body's folded forward, everything's contracting. So, you know, we are highly specific to adapting to our environment. And so we want to make sure that if I'm looking at your environment, what do you do? What's your day look like? What kind of bed do you sleep in? What kind of chair are you in? And how much time do you spend in it? So I recommend everybody spends a lot of time on the floor. That is the thing. If we look at what we lose as we get older, we lose the ability to get off the fucking floor. Excuse my French. But I really want to emphasize that. We become afraid of the floor. And that's an issue. So spending time on the floor makes you get up from the floor and makes that less fearful for you. And I know that's going from one extreme—surfing—to, okay, now we're starting to end life here. But that's the truth. And we become fearful of moving. So movement, therefore, is life. And life is movement. So everything that I do kind of always spirals back into movement. And spiral is a big thing too. Not only does spiral make up the waves, but it's how our bodies are formed. There's a number system in the body called the Fibonacci sequence, and it's known as the golden ratio or sacred geometry. It's kind of how the universe is made up. And we are part of that universe. And guess what? We're made up of the same thing. And that's vibration and frequency and energy. Everything organic in the universe has those three principles. And so that's what we're made up of. So I'm really into looking at the dynamics of healing with that in mind. You know, how does our frequency change when we drop in our health? Our immune system drops. Our body's not able to handle the stress it was before. And then what do we do to vibrate it back into life? And you'll be seeing a lot of those things come out in the near future about how vibration—key frequency and vibration—like your nerves vibrate at a different frequency than your muscle does. And your organs—heart, lung, liver—they all have their own frequencies. So the way that we keep the frequencies up is to be in good environments, have a good mindset, and hydrate. Because if you don't hydrate, you can't vibrate. So I see three things that happen in people. Relatively simple things everybody can do for free to enhance their life starting today. And that's to make sure that you've hydrated half your body weight in ounces. I would say sleep is the other big deal, right? You’ve got to get seven to nine hours of sleep. It's compulsory. You have to do it. And you have to learn how to make it high-quality sleep too. Because when you're sleeping, your brain's scrubbing itself. It's going through all these different wave patterns in your brain to clean itself up and flush stuff out of there so you can get ready for the next day. So having a high quality of sleep is really important. And then the third thing is just breathing right. Nose breathing, diaphragmatic breathing. I mean, those three things, if I could turn the world onto that and just deliver and say, hey, here's the most special thing that you can do, I know it would elevate. It would raise all the ships in the harbor. You know, it would elevate everybody's life, everybody's vibration, everybody's attitude and all that stuff. And I know that's highly simplistic information. But we've got to start somewhere. And so that's a great way to start with one's health—just looking at those three things.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and I totally agree. You alluded to the vibrational stuff, and it sounds like you've been following some interesting leaders within the health and fitness space who aren't yet mainstream, who you—seems like you predict them to be. Jack Kruse comes to mind. I don't know if you're on to what he's been doing—he’s been doing that for a long time—but his stuff's starting to come to the forefront. And anyone else that we should be looking at in that space for the nerds out there?
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Well, there. They'll make it happen that much faster because as you're doing the actual mechanical stretch or movement, it's sending in the vibration that's specifically tuned for those fibers. And when the body gets that information, it just, it yields to it way quicker. And so that's a really cool thing. There's another really cool machine I used at the U.S. Open of Surfing last week. We had like 35 doctors out there and I met this one group that said, hey, I want to introduce you to this machine. And they told me about the concept of it. I said, gosh, if you could bring one out, man, let's have it in the tent. And so they have this thing called ShiftWave, and it's a chair that you sit in. And it's probably, I don't know, it's 12 to 15 grand. So it's not cheap, but the experience that you have in it is just unbelievable. You sit in this chair and then you put on headphones and you put on a mask so you can't see, so light's blocked out. And it just starts guiding you through this meditation of breath. Different types of breath work though, not just singular breath work, to elicit different responses in your body. So there's one that in particular I'll tell you about, it's called *Ride the Tiger*. It's this 25-minute program where they take you through a HALO jump. Like you've never jumped, you've never parachuted, but they take you through the breath work that a HALO jumper—that's high-altitude skydivers that do it in the military and so forth—but they're diving for miles out of a plane, miles up in the air. And they're going through this atmosphere where they got no oxygen. So they hyper-oxygenate you with this oxygen program or this breathing program before they put you into this. They have you do the HALO jump into this jungle where there's this tiger that you have to befriend. So you have to calm yourself, yet keep yourself intense. And so they take you through a breathing program that does that. And I mention that program because Jhony Corzo, who just was in the Olympics from Mexico, and then he was at the U.S. Open—just won the U.S. Open. We turned him on to that the first day of the U.S. Open. He was riding the tiger every day, twice a day, and ended up winning the comp. And so it just kind of tells that story of here's a guy who's come into the competition, probably pretty fatigued from coming back from, you know, the Olympics and having that whole experience—that emotional experience along with the physical one. And now he's found this little button that he can push to get his vibrations back up, his energy up, his focus up. Because different vibrations will either mellow you out by putting you into the parasympathetic mode or heighten everything and put you in the ready state. So that's kind of what this machine does. It plays between those two variances and gets you ready for whatever thing you're getting into—whether you've got to go give a speech or you're going to go for a surf or you want to go take a nap.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
There are some cool products that are coming out with frequency in mind. One is NuX. It's called NuX Technologies, and that is a stem machine that vibrates and uses different frequencies to create different changes in the body. Like they'll set a frequency to lengthen muscle. I've never seen a muscle stim that does that before. So as I'm doing a yoga class or Gymnastica Natural—whatever I'm into—and I'm trying to gain mobility, these things will accentuate whatever I'm doing physically in there. They'll make it happen that much faster because as you're doing the actual mechanical stretch or movement, it's sending in the vibration that's specifically tuned for those fibers. And when the body gets that information, it just yields to it way quicker. And so that's a really cool thing. There's another really cool machine I used at the U.S. Open of Surfing last week. We had like 35 doctors out there and I met this one group that said, "Hey, I want to introduce you to this machine." And they told me about the concept of it. I said, "Gosh, if you could bring one out, man, let's have it in the tent." And so they have this thing called ShiftWave, and it's a chair that you sit in. And it's probably, I don't know, it's $12,000 to $15,000. So it's not cheap, but the experience that you have in it is just unbelievable. You sit in this chair and then you put on headphones and you put on a mask so you can't see, so light's blocked out. And it just starts guiding you through this meditation of breath—different types of breathwork though, not just singular breathwork—to elicit different responses in your body. So there's one that in particular I'll tell you about. It's called *Ride the Tiger*. It's this 25-minute program where they take you through a HALO jump. Like you've never jumped, you've never parachuted, but they take you through the breathwork that a HALO jumper—that's high-altitude skydivers that do it in the military and so forth—but they're diving for miles out of a plane, miles up in the air, and they're going through this atmosphere where they got no oxygen. So they hyper-oxygenate you with this oxygen program or this breathing program before they put you into this. They have you do the HALO jump into this jungle where there's this tiger that you have to befriend. So you have to calm yourself, yet keep yourself intense. And so they take you through a breathing program that does that. And I mention that program because Jhony Corzo, who just was in the Olympics from Mexico and then he was at the U.S. Open, just won the U.S. Open. We turned him on to that the first day of the U.S. Open. He was riding the tiger every day, twice a day, and ended up winning the comp. And so it just kind of tells that story of here's a guy who's come into the competition, probably pretty fatigued from coming back from, you know, the Olympics and having that whole experience—that emotional experience along with the physical one. And now he's found this little button that he can push to get his vibrations back up, his energy up, his focus up. Because different vibrations will either mellow you out by putting you into the parasympathetic mode or heighten everything and put you in the ready state. So that's kind of what this machine does. It plays between those two variances and gets you ready for whatever thing you're getting into—whether you've got to go give a speech or you're going to go for a surf or you want to go take a nap.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow, really interesting. That's cool. One thing I can think of I've talked about really quickly is called tapping, which is a really old and ancient way of healing where they tap on certain parts of the body to get a response. And of course that's vibrational. So it's around us. You know, the negative vibrations are car engines, plane engines, train engines. Whenever we sit in a car, we're degenerating. Same with an airplane. Besides being up in a microwave, you're vibrating. So unfortunately, those vibrations are not good for us. So there are some vibrations that are good, some that aren't. Those that are in the transportation system industry retire early, often because of the damage that vibration has done to... yeah.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Cool. Yeah. And the thing, the most basic thing I can think of I've talked about really quickly is called tapping, which is a really old and ancient way of healing where they tap on certain parts of the body to get a response. And of course that's vibrational. So it's around us. You know, the negative vibrations are car engines, plane engines, train engines. Whenever we sit in a car, we're degenerating. Same with an airplane. Besides being up in a microwave, you're vibrating. So unfortunately, those vibrations are not good for us. So there are some vibrations that are good, some that aren't. Those that are in the transportation system industry retire early, often because of the damage that vibration has done.
**Michael Frampton**
The system. Yeah. I mean, and sound healing comes to mind, of course. I'm not—I don't have anything to do with these products—but I use them with my athletes. N.O.W. Sound Therapy. And there's these two little speakers you put right next to your ears as you lay back. And it takes you through three minutes of sounds. And these sounds are all different frequencies that take your brain through all the different waves. Oftentimes when we're stressed out or we're overcooked, our brain sticks into one pattern and it's got like six different waves that it needs to go through for all its processes. And so this sound therapy takes your brain through—it's involuntary—it just goes on. And at the end of the three minutes, you've had physiologically a 30-minute deep meditation. I don't know about you, Michael. Meditation is tough for me to sit down and give it 45 on a daily basis, if we're being honest, right? But if you can't give up three minutes to get your mind right, then you probably don't really want your mind right. So I do the three-minute thing, you know, oftentimes multiple times during the day, and it's just wonderful. And you can't believe it when you experience it the first time because it's so simple. And the chemistry that you feel change in your body after doing this is—you know, it's drug-like. Because that's what's happening. Brain chemistry is being released into your body and you actually feel it.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
There's a product I want to just mention real quick called N.O.W. I'm not—I don't have anything to do with these products—but I use them with my athletes. N.O.W. Sound Therapy. And there's these two little speakers you put right next to your ears as you lay back. And it takes you through three minutes of sounds. And these sounds are all different frequencies that take your brain through all the different waves. Oftentimes, when we're stressed out or we're overcooked, our brain sticks into one pattern and it's got like six different waves that it needs to go through for all its processes. And so this sound therapy takes your brain through—it's involuntary—it just goes on. And at the end of the three minutes, you've had physiologically a 30-minute deep meditation. I don't know about you, Michael. Meditation is tough for me to sit down and give it 45 on a daily basis, if we're being honest, right? But if you can't give up three minutes to get your mind right, then you probably don't really want your mind right. So I do the three-minute thing, you know, oftentimes multiple times during the day, and it's just wonderful. And you can't believe it when you experience it the first time because it's so simple. And the chemistry that you feel change in your body after doing this is—you know, it's drug-like. Because that's what's happening. Brain chemistry is being released into your body and you actually feel it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I struggle to do long meditation. I do the Kelee five-minute meditation. That's my go-to. Yeah. And I use sound as well. You feel certain frequencies, you feel your bones vibrate differently and different parts of the body vibrate, which of course, even from a pure neurological perspective, that just increases your basic body awareness. A keen ear and they listen to the whispers before it becomes a conversation. Before it becomes a scream. When it's a scream, you're injured. But your body's always talking to us. And like when you walk by, like in your house and you're walking by a bottle of vitamin C—some days, the last three days you walk by it and you see that you're cognizant of it. There's a reason for that. You might want to maybe suss out and take some of that. Because your body's always giving you messages and it becomes, you know, that ability to become wise and to have wisdom through experience, to start recognizing these things. And so, you know, I've already been through a bunch of trips around the world. You know, the sun's gone around a few times in my life. And so anything I can do to share some of that stuff, which is what you're doing to my people—such a good job of it. Really appreciate your perspective as well, because, you know, there's so much that we can either choose to get out of life or leave behind. And I just, I've had the opportunity to be around a lot of people that have gotten the most out of life. And I want to share those experiences.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
And that's everything, right? We want to bring that awareness out. It's talking to us all the time. And what we have to do is learn how to adjust the volume. You know, the people that are really on with their body—the Jerry Lopezes, the Kellys, the John Johns, the Micks—those guys really have a keen ear and they listen to the whispers before it becomes a conversation. Before it becomes a scream. When it's a scream, you're injured. But your body's always talking to us. And like when you walk by, like in your house and you're walking by a bottle of vitamin C—some days, the last three days you walk by it and you see that you're cognizant of it. There's a reason for that. You might want to maybe suss out and take some of that. Because your body's always giving you messages and it becomes, you know, that ability to become wise and to have wisdom through experience, to start recognizing these things. And so, you know, I've already been through a bunch of trips around the world. You know, the sun's gone around a few times in my life. And so anything I can do to share some of that stuff, which is what you're doing to my people—such a good job of it. Really appreciate your perspective as well, because, you know, there's so much that we can either choose to get out of life or leave behind. And I just, I've had the opportunity to be around a lot of people that have gotten the most out of life. And I want to share those experiences.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, thank you. That sounds awesome. I mean, surfing is a long-term relationship—sort of a thought that I've been thinking about recently. And like any long-term relationship, the more committed you are to it, the more you're going to get out of it. Of course, you're going to have challenges. And whilst, you know, if you want to improve a personal or romantic relationship, you might go to a marriage counselor and you might, you know, do some self-help reading or something like that. But when it comes to surfing, you've got to keep your body and your mind and your diet in check in order just to keep getting off the floor—because that's what a pop-up is, right? Essentially. That's... system and the body can really help to repair itself. Yep. So I think that was really cool stuff that I saw.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yeah, I saw on your site, you know, you're into the pop-up, and that's something that I'll share with you too. That's what happens when we get older—we lose the pop-up, right? And it was really encouraging for me to see you doing a reverse pop-up, Michael. Because for me, that's what I do with sports. If a kicker's got a kicking injury, I take him through the reverse motion of a kick to help him heal. And it's the same thing with surfing. So that reverse pop-up that you've got going on the other side of the planet here is just bitchin’ to see—that you're doing the same stuff—because I really believe it's true. You just reverse what's happening in the nervous system, and the body can really help to repair itself. Yep. So I think that was really cool stuff that I saw.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, it's a good way to progress into it. And reverse pop-up with the opposite leg as well to keep the body a bit more symmetrical. I used to work with Kobe Bryant quite a bit and ended up meeting up with him about three months before he passed, again. And he was working with us with the U.S. Surf Team. Really. And so he brought and wanted to talk story and talked about balance with Kobe. And one of the girls that was trying for the surf team, I remember, asked, "Well, Kobe, I too want to be the best in the world at what I do." She was a water polo player and Olympian, and now she wanted to be a surfing Olympian. And so she goes, "But I'm having a problem with my family sharing—trying to become balanced, you know, between my family and my work and my job and my sport—that I want to be the best in the world at." She goes, "Well, Kobe, I know you want to be the best in the world. How did you balance that out?" And he goes, "Look, you have to do one thing first and foremost, and that's lose the word balance." And I just went, "What?" And he goes, "There is no balance in greatness. If you want to be good, you can be balanced. But if you want to be great, you'll never be balanced. That is the sacrifice you make for greatness." And I just was completely blown away because I'd been training people for balance—you know, those three things that I talked about. And then as I learned more about greatness, there's a great book called *Relentless* by Tim Grover, and it speaks to those athletes that are relentless. And Kelly Slater is a great example in our sport—of doing whatever it takes to be better, to never be satisfied with the job that you did today because tomorrow is a new day. And so, not the healthiest for all of us to get into that mindset—I promise you that. But it's really great for me, working with parents that have kids that they are aspiring to be great at what they do. And I don't care if that's a musician or an athlete or an artist or an academic—if you want to be great, you're going to be different. The sacrifices that you make to be great will not allow you to go to all the birthday parties and go to prom and be popular with this or that group. You are going to be solely focused on greatness. And greatness has everything—one lane. And so that to me has been a great lesson to be able to talk to the parents with intelligence and say, "This is not just coming from me. This is coming from some of the greatest. And if you want your kid to be great, you're going to sacrifice your kid's normalcy. And if that's cool with you, then... I don't know if it's cool with your kid. But that's what it takes to be great." So I not only have a tremendous amount of respect for those that are great—Neil Young is great. He's a little odd, you know? Sorry, Neil. But that's what greatness requires—that you have to go off. So I don't know why I got onto that tangent.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because there's nobody that's ever been balanced. And I mean, for my first 35 years, I taught balance—until I had the honor to work with Kobe Bryant quite a bit. And ended up meeting up with him about three months before he passed, again. And he was working with us with the U.S. Surf Team. Really. And so he brought and wanted to talk story and talked about balance with Kobe. And one of the girls that was trying for the surf team, I remember, asked, "Well, Kobe, I too want to be the best in the world at what I do." She was a water polo player and Olympian, and now she wanted to be a surfing Olympian. And so she goes, "But I'm having a problem with my family sharing—trying to become balanced, you know, between my family and my work and my job and my sport—that I want to be the best in the world at." She goes, "Well, Kobe, I know you want to be the best in the world. How did you balance that out?" And he goes, "Look, you have to do one thing first and foremost, and that's lose the word balance." And I just went, "What?" And he goes, "There is no balance in greatness. If you want to be good, you can be balanced. But if you want to be great, you'll never be balanced. That is the sacrifice you make for greatness." And I just was completely blown away because I'd been training people for balance—you know, those three things that I talked about. And then as I learned more about greatness, there's a great book called *Relentless* by Tim Grover, and it speaks to those athletes that are relentless. And Kelly Slater is a great example in our sport—of doing whatever it takes to be better, to never be satisfied with the job that you did today because tomorrow is a new day. And so, not the healthiest for all of us to get into that mindset—I promise you that. But it's really great for me, working with parents that have kids that they are aspiring to be great at what they do. And I don't care if that's a musician or an athlete or an artist or an academic—if you want to be great, you're going to be different. The sacrifices that you make to be great will not allow you to go to all the birthday parties and go to prom and be popular with this or that group. You are going to be solely focused on greatness. And greatness has everything—one lane. And so that to me has been a great lesson to be able to talk to the parents with intelligence and say, "This is not just coming from me. This is coming from some of the greatest. And if you want your kid to be great, you're going to sacrifice your kid's normalcy. And if that's cool with you, then... I don't know if it's cool with your kid. But that's what it takes to be great." So I not only have a tremendous amount of respect for those that are great—Neil Young is great. He's a little odd, you know? Sorry, Neil. But that's what greatness requires—that you have to go off. So I don't know why I got onto that tangent.
**Michael Frampton**
That. I like that. And it's good for us as the average athlete to realize that and just set our goals to just be good or better. But what I do like about that is because the great ones—the pioneers, let's call them—they go so into it and so far into it that they help people. People like you who work with that level, you can then translate and figure out what works the best because you're working with the great, the obsessed. And you can translate that into what can we take out of that and put into an everyday life. For example, it's like, well, you and I, we love surfing. We do want to be better. We want to age gracefully and keep surfing. What can we learn from those people today? About how—what to eat. Because we eat anyway. We're going to spend time with meal prep and choosing the right foods. So how do we improve what we're already doing? And we probably already do some other exercise other than surfing, whether that's running or going to the gym or whatever it is. So how can we improve and refine that so that we can be better at surfing and improve our long-term relationship with surfing? So I think good is—and better is—great for us. We can let go of the greatness. Because you're right.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
It's the progress. Not perfection. You know, when you're looking for perfection, you take a lot of the fun out of it. And for me, the fun better be in the process. With regards to surfing... you're going to be a bummed out guy all the time—or gal. So the process has to be enjoyable. You have to really love that process. And so for me, you know, that includes a lot of laughing, a lot of fun. Along with following the examples of Kellys, the Johns, the Micks—all those guys that have come kind of a little bit before the group that's coming up now—and emulate them. Follow the things that you can and just follow their example. And mimic it. Mimic perfection. It's not a bad thing. At all. You know, you've got to practice that. To make yourself better, you've got to go on this journey that's going to put you into some discomfort. If you're not in discomfort from time to time, you're not growing. And so doing some of these things that the best of the best do is going to not only improve your game, but get you going in that direction. And get your lifestyle and your habits going into a routine that the best of the best have. Because that's what another piece of it is. And again, you spoke about the Kelee meditation—one of the best meditation practices I've ever seen in practice. I mean, you can get it. You can become—you can get a meditation the first time that you try it. And that, for me, is just really wonderful. So I'm stoked that both Matt and Taylor are going to take the time to teach that to a lot of people in our upcoming little seminar here. Because meditation, being able to come into focus, to be able to drop off all the noise and just be, is education that everyone needs to graduate from.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Exactly. And that's exactly it. I mean... the Mind and Movement Masterclass. You've got the best of the best all coming together. You've got yourself, you've got Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, Matt Griggs. I think even Ron himself is coming along as well at some point. Yeah. And just getting together and imparting enough for the average athlete to take away and improve their lives. I think that's a beautiful philosophy and I wish I was still in America. I could come along. But I didn’t, it to you.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Hey, we're going to record that for everybody. Happy to send.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, cool. Will that be available for those who can't make it as well later on down the line?
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Yes, it will.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. Well, Tim, thank you so much for taking the time to give us a little bit of a taste of what is up and coming and for sharing your stories. Thank you so much.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, awesome. Well, Tim, thank you so much for taking the time to give us a little bit of a taste of what is up and coming and for sharing your stories. Thank you so much.
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Absolutely a pleasure and an honor. Nice to meet you, Michael. And thank you for all you're doing to elevate those that are in our sport and to make it more enjoyable so that people can surf for life.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's what it's about, man. Just keep surfing. Word. This thing coming up—the Mind and Movement Masterclass—is this the second time it's happened or how many times have you run it?
**Taylor Knox**
Well, yeah, it is the second time. You're right. We did it last year in a pretty small place just to kind of feel it out, see how the turnout was, and the turnout was great. It sold out pretty quickly. Of course, now that I'm an ambassador with Vuori, they built a new headquarters here with a beautiful outdoor amphitheater at their place, at their headquarters. And it has a screen and stuff. So we're going to do it there. And it'll hold like three times as many people. We're thinking maybe 100, or 80—we're not sure what the count will be—but we're pretty excited about partnering up with them because that's what they're all about. And then we'll be bringing in some of their employees as well. Yeah. And it's been a beautiful journey. For me, after three decades of traveling the world and working with the best, I've always watched where guys wanted to go and who they wanted to work with. And Tim Brown was always the guy that everyone was looking for at the contest when he was working. And when I saw the other physicians watching Tim as well, I'm like, okay, well, this guy's onto something here. He obviously is—people are watching him for a reason. So he'll be there, and he's going to be talking about diet, movement, nutrition, sleep, and stuff like that. We're going to have my trainer, Mike Rintala, there. He's one of the best, if not the best, in America for Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—DNS. He's a doctor, a chiropractor, and that's who I've been training with for the last seven years. So I really have enjoyed working with him. He's got a really evenly-keeled demeanor. And now that I'm so deeply into DNS, it's just been a fantastic journey of learning how to move and what my body does—what I didn't think it could do anymore, it's doing again. Which is just kind of turning back the clock a little bit, which is strange. You just don't know if it can ever happen. Sometimes you're like, am I just a fool right now? Am I barking up the wrong tree? And so far, the tree keeps giving. So I'm going to keep going up the tree with him for a while. Of course, Matt and I will be talking about surf technique, Kelee meditation—the journeys we've been on with healing meditation, why and how we found it, and why we stuck with it. Then the founder of the Healy Foundation, Ron Rathbun, is going to show up and he's going to speak and answer questions as well. So it'll be good. We're going to have a lot of cool prizes and giveaways and raffles and good food. So it'll be a good day.
**Michael Frampton**
I mean, you're a perfect icon of that sort of surf performance and health longevity. So is it sort of an accumulation of that and teaching what you've learned over the years to a wider audience?
**Taylor Knox**
Essentially? Yeah. I mean, for sure, it's always been a passion. Because when I went to France or South Africa, I'd always be looking for the best guys—trainers, masseuses. I would ask the local guys that lived there, "Where do you train and who do you get to work on your body?" And so I was constantly looking. I don't know, it's just something I've been naturally interested in. I want to learn all I can. Fix the body yourself, or at least find people that can help guide you in that direction. And I just believe that decades of surfing around the world and traveling really give you insight. Like, 100 million people may say this one thing over here is the best thing you've ever done in your life. And then you might find some guy that trains differently in Africa that no one's ever heard of and go, "I don't know, this guy over here that no one's given attention to actually is onto something. He's like a mad scientist in his own little world over here." And just because he doesn't have the followers, I really believe in what he's doing. So, you know, that's what it is for me. There's a golden thread of truth in everything I've come across, and I've come across a lot. And for me, this is assembling the dream team. And hopefully, we'd like to add some more people to it as well—add more modalities down the road. It's kind of just the beginning. This is just the beginning of the vision that Tim and Mike and Matt and I have. We want to create a community where the bright minds that really help people around the world get together. Because if you ever meet anyone and they're like, "Yeah, I have all the answers," then that would be a big warning sign to me—because no one does. And I want to get all these guys together in the same room and talk and hear their opinions and what they think. You know, how would you go about a torn hamstring? Well, Tim might go about it one way and Mike might go about it another way. I love how each one attacks it. So that's been my thought with putting this little team together—something we can do moving forward.
**Michael Frampton**
Have you had any injuries recently?
**Michael Rintala**
Yep. Hamstring?
**Dr. Tim Brown**
Hamstring?
**Taylor Knox**
Since I saw you, I tore my adductor off. In one leg, I tore a hamstring in the other leg. And now I'm kind of dealing with a real sore hip. But my knee has come back amazing, you know, which has been a beauty. That thing really tortured me for like a decade—three surgeries. The last one and the training I did worked out well. Of course, with my style of surfing, my back leg has gotten a lot of use. There's a lot of wheel, you know, and I don't think I need surgery at the moment, but it's something I need to take care of for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Having that turnaround of your knee, what do you put that down to?
**Taylor Knox**
Well, first of all, this new technology that came out for surgery—where they can do a partial knee replacement. And like, Dr. Warren Kramer did my surgery. He does a lot of guys that go through injuries in surfing. Most of the top dudes go to him. But he goes, "Hold on. You might be a perfect candidate. There's this robot. I'm getting this robot." And I...
**Michael Frampton**
Sounds like a robot. That sounds kind of sketchy.
**Taylor Knox**
You know, like... And he's like, "No, it's great. Human hands can shake a little bit. They can, you know—the human eye—there’s just room for error. With a machine, there's no error." So anyway, I went in and I did it. And I was like the ninth person—I think first person for sure. And the rehab is—you know, you gotta be really dedicated to rehab. And I was. And it's turned out to be a great way. I've gotten way more out of my knee than I ever dreamed about. And I'm living pain-free.
**Michael Frampton**
Partial knee replacement? So what—they just replaced the cartilage? What do they replace?
**Taylor Knox**
Well, imagine—so my lateral meniscus wore out, which is the outside of your knee. I got to be bone on bone, and then that was really painful. And, you know, basically, I couldn't surf. So what they do is—it's kind of like they go in and it's like a router, right? They'll take a CT scan of your knee, your tibia plateau, so that the robot knows what it's working with. It kind of locks into the CT scan and your bone. And then it's like a router. It goes in there and just routers out the bone and puts in a titanium plate. And then a titanium plate above. So it's just two titanium plates that are rubbed together. So, you know, there's no pain. They never wear out.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. So you don't need another surgery for the rest of your life? That's cool.
**Taylor Knox**
Yeah. It is cool. It's really cool. Because without that, my career would have been over a couple of years ago. Total knee replacement used to be the only option, but it turns out it's not.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, well, I'm bone on bone now with my knee because I had ACL surgery, you know, 20 years ago, and the cartilage finally wore out. So it's bone on bone. And, you know, the surgeon said, "Look, total knee replacement is the only option," but it turns out it's not.
**Taylor Knox**
Yeah, the machine is called Mako—like Mako Shark—M-A-K-O. And they're using them a lot over here. I think they're actually starting to use them for hips as well. Yeah, a little scary, you know, like what if the robot skips out or something?
**Michael Frampton**
Well, the future is bright.
**Taylor Knox**
But no, it was a really good experience.
**Michael Frampton**
And the rehab? Was that Mike?
**Taylor Knox**
That was Mike and another friend of mine named Gina Stinko, and he does ART—which is active release technique. Yeah, and he's one of the top—yeah, I mean, he's definitely in the top three of the country. He's on the board and stuff. He's an instructor, traveling around with a golfer.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So it's obvious—if there's no more friction from bone on bone, there's going to be less swelling, I assume?
**Taylor Knox**
There's no swelling. There's no swelling at all.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. So does it feel better than your other knee?
**Taylor Knox**
It does. My knee hasn't felt this good in like 15 years.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow.
**Taylor Knox**
Yeah, my other knee is still good. It's fine. It's funny because all the issues are going on the right side of my body, which—you know—that's my power leg. On my left side, my body's great. I have no problems over there at all.
**Michael Rintala**
Funny. Okay. There are probably a lot of listeners that won't be able to make it to this seminar. What can we leave—what's one piece of advice we can leave them with—for surfing longevity?
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. Okay. There are probably a lot of listeners that won't be able to make it to this seminar. What can we leave—what's one piece of advice we can leave them with—for surfing longevity?
**Taylor Knox**
Surfing longevity. I mean, I just did a little film with Vuori called *The Body Follows the Mind*. And it's true. You know? How you heal is going to be how you feel. So you should feel good about your process and your rehabbing. I really feel like—and people know this—that stress can affect the body. And just think about stress—it can be little or extreme. But your feelings and how you feel about what you're doing and how your life is going is a big factor. It has a big determination on your healing. So I always tell people, don't be hard on yourself. Don’t beat yourself up. Beating yourself up isn't going to help. It's definitely not the way to get better at anything. I used to do that a lot—beat myself up. So I learned that instead of beating yourself up, try to just focus on where you want to go in life. You're going to have challenges—we all do. Nobody's immune to that, that’s for sure. But always know that when you find your center, it never has to do with anyone else. It’s something very personal to you. Try to look within for all your answers is what I’m trying to say. And I think when you can get your own blocks out of your own way, you’ll find all the answers you’re looking for.
**Michael Frampton**
I like that. I like that. And I think it was episode 34 where you and I first did this podcast, and we went into that in a lot more detail. So I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes for those listening. Yeah. Awesome, Taylor. Well, thank you so much for coming back on to chat about this.
**Taylor Knox**
Thanks a lot too for having me on, Michael. Appreciate it. And the Mindful Masterclass.
**Michael Frampton**
For being involved with the up-and-coming movement and Mindful Masterclass. Tim and I did—Tim Brown?
**Michael Rintala**
So it was kind of... Did you go to the one that Tim and I did? Tim Brown?
**Michael Frampton**
It was—we did—yeah. At Huntington Beach. I forget what we called it. Mind and Mood? Something similar, something Masterclass. So we took that idea. And then just working with Taylor, it was like, we should do something DNS surfing-based. Which we did. We did some stuff. I've done some stuff with Tim Brown. And then last year we did another DNS surf with Taylor, and then Tim talked as well. But then we just had that inspiration or idea—it’s like, hey, why don’t we combine the movement with the mind, the meditation, the Kelee meditation. So we started—had that idea of putting something together. And then we wanted to make it a little more surf specific. So we brought Tim on—Tim Brown. Have you had a session with him yet?
**Michael Rintala**
Yes. So, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I had a good chat with him. Yep. Yeah, we were just like, okay, let’s put it all together. And we did it last year around the same time, and we really enjoyed it. The people that were there enjoyed it. So we’re like, okay, let’s do it again. But this time, the setting will be different. It'll be at Vuori—at their headquarters, which has a nice outdoor setup, like little steps, like a stadium. They have a big screen we can use. So, yeah, we’re going to make it happen for the second time.
**Michael Rintala**
Yeah, he's a good chatter. And so, yeah, we just liked—okay, let’s put it all together. And we did it last year around the same time, and we really enjoyed it. The people that were there enjoyed it. So we’re like, okay, let’s do it again. But this time the setting will be different. It'll be at Vuori—their headquarters. Which has a nice outdoor space, like little stadium steps. They have a big screen we can use. So, yeah, we're going to make it happen for the second time.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Thanks. Movement to blend mind and—
**Michael Rintala**
You know how to blend mind and body. The more you learn about the human body and the human condition, I think the more you understand there isn't really much separation between the two.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. The more you learn about the human body and the human condition, the more you understand there isn't really much separation between the two. So, yeah, it’s already part of the central nervous system, part of the mind. And then the big thing with Kelee—being able to quiet or focus the mind—balances the autonomic nervous system. So you have sympathetic and parasympathetic. The better that’s balanced, the better you can express the inborn motor patterns that we’re all born with. That’s where DNS—Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—and movement efficiency comes into it. So if you balance the mind, you balance the body. Then you produce durability, longevity, and movement quality. So yes, having both is going to be best for long term.
**Michael Rintala**
Right. Yeah. I mean, with DNS—Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—the central nervous system is basically controlling the synergy, coordination, and timing of all the musculature to produce efficient movement. So, yeah, it’s already part of the central nervous system—part of the mind. And the big thing with Kelee—being able to quiet or focus the mind—balances the autonomic nervous system. So you have sympathetic and parasympathetic. The better that’s balanced, the better you can express the inborn motor patterns we’re all born with. And that’s where DNS—the dynamic neuromuscular stabilization—comes in with movement efficiency. So if you balance the mind, you balance the body, then you produce durability and longevity of movement quality. So yes, having both is best for the long term.
**Michael Frampton**
I see a lot of similarities, because in a lot of ways, meditation is actually about doing less. It's about allowing the present moment to be louder than all the other stuff. It’s about taking away. And then DNS is kind of similar, right? It’s about allowing efficient movement, rather than you getting in the way or trying to force anything. Then, if we see compensatory or high-threshold patterns of movement—which are going to get in the way of efficiency—then we give people things to do and train to quiet those compensatory or high-threshold patterns, and then be able to express those inborn patterns. And when you’re able to express those patterns, it’s not cortical function—you’re not overthinking it—you’re just expressing it. Then you’re moving naturally without thinking about it. So yes, similarities with the goal of meditation.
**Michael Rintala**
Exactly. It’s allowing the inborn, hardwired motor patterns to express themselves. They’re all in our subcortical region of the central nervous system. And if we can let them express themselves how they’re supposed to be expressed, then the movement efficiency improves. So, the one thing initially with DNS is—usually when we assess—we’ll assess the efficiency of the movement quality, efficiency or inefficiency. And then, if we see compensatory or high-threshold patterns of movement—which will get in the way of efficiency—then we give people things to do and train to quiet those compensatory or high-threshold patterns. And then, be able to express those inborn patterns. And when you’re able to express those patterns, it’s not the cortical function—you’re not overthinking it—you’re just expressing it. And then you're moving naturally without thinking about it. So yes, similarities with the goal of meditation.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's a good summary. And the thing I like—before I did your course, I remember there was a group, I think it was DNS for Surfing from memory. I'd already done probably 50 one-on-one DNS sessions, and I'd done, I think, Level 1—the introduction course to DNS—and it was all very technical and quite heady, even for someone sort of coming from that health and fitness world. But what I really liked about the course with you and your wife is you guys just simplified it so much. And made it very practical. So I think there were even some people there who weren’t from a health and fitness background that could get it as well.
**Michael Rintala**
The goal with the Mind and Movement Masterclass is more of that—like move, simplify it—whereas the coursework, yeah, you know, you dive deeper into the developmental kinesiology and central nervous system. And it can—especially when you're first taking courses, like the introduction—be a little bit overwhelming. But the ultimate goal is the movement, right? Teaching-wise, for me, learning—if I can move, I can feel it—then I integrate it better. And so that's my style of teaching. Okay, let's move and let's feel it. And let’s feel what we talk about with the coursework.
**Michael Frampton**
I remember the photo you guys had—there were a couple of photos of, I think, Kelly Slater and John John—just in a nice, relaxed, efficient surf stance. And then next to it was one of the DNS pictures of the infant. And the correlations are just so obvious.
**Michael Rintala**
The athletes that rise to the top and are the top performers—they have that ability to express those inborn motor patterns on the subcortical central nervous system level. But they have really good cortical function, meaning awareness—awareness of their environment. They can input information from the environment, process it, and then express what needs to be done to move within that environment. And so, like Kelly Slater, John John, other athletes—Michael Jordan, Roger Federer—you see the athletes that you watch them and they just move. It’s like they move so effortlessly. And that’s just that quality of the expression of those patterns. And the athletes that have that ability and have that efficiency, they not only move efficiently, but they have that ability to relax and be more efficient people. As to where they need to stabilize in order to conserve energy and again, move with efficiency. Versus athletes that rely more on the high-threshold compensatory pattern, and you see tension. They still do well, but they have to rely more on speed and strength. Whereas the really efficient movers, they just make it look so effortless and they’re so relaxed. And then with that, you see longevity and durability throughout their career. So when we do the Mind and Movement Masterclass, we’re going to be talking about that. We’re going to be giving people tools, movement-wise, to help them achieve that. But then yeah, with the Kelee meditation, we’re going to be addressing the mind as well—just as much, if not more.
**Michael Frampton**
Important. Yeah. No, they go hand in hand. And then Tim obviously is going to be talking about nutrition and sleep and stuff as well. So it’s very holistic. And if you want to get better at surfing—and if you want to surf until you’re, you know, in your eighties—then it really is that simple: learn how to move better. Really. I mean, surfing is movement. And the best surfers in the world move really efficiently. And you can even see in the background on the DNS poster behind you—for those that are watching—is the first image there of the baby lying down. I mean, that’s a surfer paddling. Simple as that.
**Michael Rintala**
Yeah. Like right there maybe? Yeah. And here—popping up.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. Yep, the first image—that’s the surfer paddling. Popping up.
**Michael Rintala**
That poster—that represents... So when we're first born, our central nervous system is immature. Functionally and structurally, we’re immature, right? And as the central nervous system matures and our body matures, there are certain periods of time—developmental milestones—where we can achieve different positions because we’re expressing those inborn motor patterns differently. So you see the infant—this is at three months right here—you have the ability to create a stable point through the trunk and pelvis. You can lift the head. You can start to look around or lift your feet out of the base of support. But then, as everything matures, you start to become more dynamic and you can get to higher, more unstable positions. The central nervous system expresses these inborn motor patterns as they are maturing, and eventually, you're standing. That position right there—yeah. So oblique squat—that’s a common one when you pop up and you’re on the board and you’re maneuvering and surfing. And the thing too—it’s like if you look at the whole sequence from prone—that’s kind of like your pop-up, right? Your pop-up, you come to standing, and then you’re down into the position and maneuvering on the wave. When the infant is going through this development, they’re not thinking, “Put my foot here, put my hand here.” They’re just expressing the patterns that are facilitated at certain periods of time during that first 18 months of life. And if we develop in a healthy way, in a healthy environment, those patterns—we still have them up here. So as adults, we can still tap into that. We can still create that quality of synergy, coordination, and timing throughout the chains of movement. And there are ways—again, with specific exercises and the movements and the quality of support—where we can improve that expression. If we improve that expression, we improve movement quality. We create durability and longevity. And it’s something you can practice—it’s like a movement meditation. A lot of the athletes that I work with—surfers, baseball players, and others—the big thing we do is we give them these series or similar positions, but then being able to transition from one position to the next so they’re constantly reinforcing this ideal expression. Then, when they paddle out, they’re popping up—that’s expressing itself. And so you can use it. It’s a great movement preparation for people to utilize in whatever their sport may be. And in this case, the focus will be more on the surf athlete.
**Michael Frampton**
So, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show, and I urge people to get along to it. There’ll be links in the show notes to everything. And I would have done a big intro before this to explain it all. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it. Awesome.
**Michael Rintala**
Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Great to see you again.
**Michael Frampton**
I’ve got another question for you while I’ve got you on the phone, actually. What are your thoughts on vestibular and ocular training?
**Michael Rintala**
I think it's great. Especially as part of the somatosensory input. So input from the environment—the better that quality of input, the better you can process and provide optimal output. We talk about with DNS and the central nervous system—there are inborn motor patterns. But a huge factor is your quality of somatosensory input and awareness—cortical function. So it's a great adjunct to the DNS work. And one thing I really enjoy about DNS is it’s not something where it's like, “Stop doing that, just do this.” You can integrate DNS concepts and principles into whatever you're doing—weightlifting, visual training, vestibular training. So it's great. Everything kind of works together. DNS is like the fascia or the connection between everything that helps it all work together more efficiently.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. Yeah. I’ve done the Dr. Cobb from Z-Health—I’ve done his courses on ocular and vestibular. Any other resources in that regard you’ve come across or would recommend?
**Michael Rintala**
I've done those courses as well. I highly recommend them. There are some PhD students out of Prague School of Rehabilitation that are focusing on exactly what you described. I’m hoping in 2025 to get them over here and integrate the two. So stay tuned on that.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. That’s exciting. So adding some DNS thinking to Dr. Cobb’s sort of work—is that what they’re doing? I think Posture Pro is another one. I can’t remember the exact name, but I forget her name. Great integration with that training as well. I think it—they—it’s perfect. They go hand in hand.
**Michael Rintala**
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah, other than Z-Health, I really like it. I think there are some other resources out there. I think Posture Pro is another one. I can’t remember the exact name, but yeah, I forget her name. Great integration with that training as well. I think they go hand in hand.
**Michael Frampton**
Posture Pro—they combine it with a lot of footwork as well.
**Michael Rintala**
Huge thing to integrate. There’s so much—so many things you can integrate and put together to help us move better and feel better.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I know, there’s a lot out there. You’ve got to find the time, but you’re the body. And I urge everyone listening to head along and join in. The link’s in the show notes. Again, Michael, thank you for your time. Appreciate it. I’ll let you go. Thank you.

105 Dr. Tim Brown + Taylor Knox + Michael Rintala
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**104 Candice Land - Exercise Physiologist for WSL and "The Female Surfer"** Oct 03, 2024

Are you training like a surfer—or just training like a dude in the gym?
In this episode, exercise physiologist and World Surf League performance expert **Candice Land** reveals why most female surfers are unknowingly training against their own biology. From misunderstood core stability to the underrated power of the vestibular system, this conversation redefines surf fitness for the modern woman.
Learn why your pelvis—not your abs—is the real key to injury-free, powerful surfing
Discover the three-pillar training system designed specifically for female surfers across all stages of life
Understand how to use your cycle, nervous system, and movement patterns to surf with more confidence and energy
Hit play now to uncover the science-backed approach that’s helping female surfers build smarter, safer, and more powerful bodies for the waves.
**Resources:**
Visit The Female Surfer for more information on Candice’s programs and resources for female surfers.
Follow Candice on Instagram: @thefemalesurfer
Sponsor for this episode is Flatrock Wetsuits, head to https://flatrockwetsuits.com.au and use code MASTER15 at checkout for 15% off.
**Key Points**
Candice Land, an exercise physiologist for the World Surf League and creator of thefemalesurfer.com, discusses her background and current work in human performance and surf conditioning.
Candice Land explains how her background in martial arts and her experience in various sports have influenced her surfing and her approach to training.
Candice Land discusses the unique challenges of surfing compared to other sports, emphasizing the importance of the vestibular system and proprioception.
Candice Land and Michael discuss the similarities between surfing and martial arts, particularly in terms of energy transfer and the use of the environment.
Candice Land explains how fear and instability can influence movement and performance in surfing, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's own body and movement patterns.
Candice Land discusses the importance of movement efficiency and the role of the pelvis in female athletes, particularly in relation to lower limb injuries and overall performance.
Candice Land emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own body and training in a way that suits individual needs, rather than adhering to rigid frameworks.
Candice Land discusses the importance of vestibular and ocular training for surfers, particularly in relation to balance, vision, and decision-making under pressure.
Candice Land provides recommendations for female recreational surfers, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's own biology, physiology, and fluctuations across the lifespan.
Candice Land introduces her pillar-based training system for female surfers, focusing on core stability, upper body development, and lower body development.
**Outline**
**Background and Introduction**
Candice Land is an exercise physiologist for the World Surf League and creator of thefemalesurfer.com.
Thefemalesurfer.com offers surf conditioning programs specializing in female athletes and recreational surfers.
Candice has been in the field of human performance for about 20 years.
Candice initially enrolled in sports psychology but ended up in sport and exercise science.
Candice was exposed to surfing at the age of 25 while living in Ireland.
Before surfing, Candice was involved in various sports including martial arts, rowing, mountain biking, touch football, and netball.
**Surfing and Martial Arts**
Candice believes that martial arts, particularly Taekwondo, have helped her surfing by improving focus, calmness, and core connection.
Surfing is described as a unique sport due to its reliance on the vestibular and proprioceptive systems.
Candice considers herself an intermediate to advanced intermediate surfer.
Kelly Slater once described surfing as a martial art, highlighting the similarities in energy transfer and danger management.
**Fear and Surfing**
Fear can influence surfing biomechanics and physiology, leading to adaptations such as crouching or adopting a 'poo stance'.
The brain's priority is to keep the surfer safe, which can result in biomechanical and physiological changes when feeling fearful.
Surfing is a sensory-based sport that relies heavily on proprioception and the vestibular system rather than the visual system.
**Movement Efficiency and Training**
Candice and Michael emphasize the importance of movement efficiency in athletic performance, particularly in surfing.
They discuss the evolutionary aspect of human movement, designed for efficiency and survival.
Candice highlights the importance of pelvic alignment and stability in female athletes to enhance efficiency and reduce injuries.
DNS (Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization) principles are used to reorganize faulty movement patterns and improve efficiency.
**Training Female Athletes**
Candice discusses the differences in skeletal framework and muscle fibers between male and female athletes.
She emphasizes the importance of pelvic alignment, core stability, and functional core stability in training female athletes.
Candice advocates for a versatile approach to training, incorporating both strength and conditioning with DNS principles.
She stresses the need for athlete-centered training that considers individual needs and fluctuations across the lifespan.
**Vestibular and Ocular Training**
Candice and Michael discuss the importance of vestibular and ocular training for surfers.
They mention the use of strobe glasses, slow blinking, and Z Health techniques to enhance vestibular and ocular skills.
Vestibular training is highlighted for its role in improving balance, spatial awareness, and decision-making under pressure.
Cognitive training is also discussed as a way to enhance VO2 max and overall athletic performance.
**Recommendations for Female Surfers**
Candice advises female surfers to pay attention to their own cycles and biological rhythms to better understand their training needs.
She emphasizes the importance of core stability as a foundational element for injury prevention and performance enhancement.
Candice developed a female surfer screening protocol and the pillar system to help female surfers identify their specific needs and improve their surfing.
The pillar system includes courses on core stability, upper body development, and lower body development.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
So now I'm here. Oh, cool. So what, by way of intro, could you tell us a little bit of your background and what you're currently doing?
**Candice Land**
Sure. So I'll flip it around and start with the end first. I'm currently managing Female Surfer, which is something I created to ensure that female athletes and female surfers have the toolkit that they need to perform at their best. So that's currently what I'm doing. But I've been in the world of human performance for about 20 years now. So I've been in exercise, which seems crazy, actually. It seems like I just graduated from uni yesterday. But yeah, I've been an exercise physiologist now for nearly 20 years. So delving into the world of human performance and how we can make that better.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, wow. So did you dive straight into that world as soon as you left school?
**Candice Land**
Fun fact, I actually was initially enrolled in sport psychology. I was always an athlete at school, so I always had that kind of interest. I don't understand how we're supposed to even know what we want to do when we finish high school. For some reason I didn't get into sport psychology, but I'm so grateful that I didn't. I ended up getting into sport and exercise science with a good friend of mine. She went on to physiotherapy and I stayed on as an exercise physiologist. And I'm one of those lucky people that this is my passion and this is what I love. So from the get-go, this is what I've been, I guess, I feel pulled to do. So I just stayed an exercise physiologist that whole time.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, awesome. When did surfing come into the picture?
**Candice Land**
Late. I played a lot of sports growing up but living in the tropics, obviously we've got the Great Barrier Reef. So I wasn't exposed to surfing until I lived in Ireland when I was about 25. So that's when I got exposed to surfing because I said to myself, when the weather is good, I don't want to be in a capital city. I want to be out enjoying this beautiful country, and I ended up in a small fishing village in Kincasslagh and was just like, wow. Firstly, the beaches are stunning. And secondly, I wanted to do something really random. So I was like, I'd love to just learn how to surf over here. And then I ended up living with the lads that ran the surf school. So I just got to tag along with them.
**Michael Frampton**
So at 25, that's not very late.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, that was only five years ago. No, it was a while ago. Longer than I would like to mention.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. What was your main sport before surfing came into play?
**Candice Land**
Before I went travelling overseas, I was big into martial arts. I actually represented Australia in Taekwondo. So that was my passion. But prior to that, I was competing in rowing and mountain bike riding, played touch footy, netball. Name it, I did it. Yeah, so a bit of an all-rounder when it comes to sport.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you think your high-level athletic background helped you to learn surfing faster than others?
**Candice Land**
No. I think surfing is really unique as a sport. In some ways, yes. I think martial arts, which I still train to this day, really helps my surfing. It really helps with focus and being able to stay calm in the water as well, and it also helps me to feel more connected on the board as well. There's a lot of breath work and stuff that goes in with Taekwondo that I think really helps with that core connection. But I feel like surfing is such a unique sport because nothing is ever the same and you don't surf how you look. It's such an internal representation on the brain. So you know when you surf and you think you surf a particular way, but then you see a video of yourself and you're like, well, that's not how surfing feels to me. It's the way the brain puts it all together. It's so reliant on the vestibular system and the proprioceptive system that it's a very internal visual thing. So for me, surfing, I would say I'm an intermediate to advanced intermediate surfer, but I wouldn't say that I'm epic at it, and it's something I'll have to spend my whole lifetime learning. So it's been the hardest sport for me to do well.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm, it is hard. I think Laird Hamilton once said that surfing is a martial art.
**Candice Land**
Interesting perspective.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm, I think, and especially, I mean, he's a high level. I think you also hear high-level martial artists saying that when you get to a certain level, it's kind of like you're dancing with danger, with your opponent. And I think that's why Laird described it like that, because essentially the best surfers in the world, they surf closest to the power. Did you do video analysis in the martial arts world as well and was it a similar thing?
**Candice Land**
No, interestingly my martial arts felt like the way that it looked. I don't know if it's because it's in a more closed environment, the floor surface is always the same, you can orientate yourself better in space because the world around you isn't shifting, the horizon's fixed. That enabled me to have a more realistic representation of where my body was in space. So when I did the martial arts I knew when I was executing a move. And also it's so easy to repeat it in the same environment. It's such a repetitive thing, so you get to really hone in and focus your technique so you get used to the sensation of feeling that it is, whereas unless you're a surf athlete that gets to experience or surf very consistent waves, 15–20 hours a week, you don't get that opportunity for repetition. So I don't know whether those things kind of play into it, where it enabled me to have more movement accuracy. So it felt like the way that it looked. I'm not sure.
**Michael Frampton** *(michaeljframpton@gmail.com)*
Yeah, I think that's got a lot to do with it for sure, because, you know, you might be into surfing and maybe if you're lucky two minutes of that is actually surfing a wave.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, time on the wave, that's right.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, I think, I've had a lot of footage of me taken through coaching sessions and stuff. And I think anyone who's seen themselves surf will relate to the fact that it looks completely different to how it felt. And even the pros. I remember Matt Griggs mentioning that Mick Fanning often found that, and Taylor Knox as well. And they said they often found that sometimes the footage they watched that looked the most extreme, like had the most spray and looked like they were doing the biggest turn, was the wave that actually felt the smoothest.
**Candice Land**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Not necessarily the most sort of stops, where you think there might be more spray.
**Candice Land**
Yes, that doesn't surprise me one bit when you understand biomechanics and human movement and the design of the human body and how we're designed for variability of movement. We're designed for efficiency in movement. That's what the human body is designed for. So when you hear comments like that, that makes perfect sense to me.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Do you think that part of the reason that we sort of have that mismatch in internal and visual representation? Do you think that's part of fear as we sort of crouch down and we feel safer when we're surfing, we end up in a bit of a poo stance?
**Candice Land**
This is really interesting because this is bringing up a conversation that I had with one of the surf coaches from Surfing Australia very recently, and we were talking about these sorts of things, like what we're talking about, in the context of stability and core stability and how underestimated it is in surf training and surf conditioning. And what is the actual purpose of surf conditioning and what should it be involving and all those sorts of things. And movement is a communication mode in the body, right? So movement tells the brain lots of different things, but it works the other way around as well so that your cognitive processes can very much influence your movement. So, for example, for me, I know when I feel uncertain, unstable, I'm in a new environment, the wave feels a little bit different, or I'm on a board that's a little bit funky, I don't think I've got the right board for the conditions, my surfing style, I'll compress far more because there is a lack of trust through the nervous system based on those parameters. So I do think that fear can definitely, it has to be able to have that sort of influence because it's all, it's like this cyclical communication because the brain is always trying to figure out what is the best movement option. The main priority of the brain is to keep you safe. So in that time, if you're feeling fearful, there will be a biomechanical and physiological adaptation to that because it's the number one priority.
**Michael Frampton**
And that's happening whether you're aware of the fear or not.
**Candice Land**
Exactly. Yeah. It's a very perceptual thing. Surfing is very much a sensory-based sport. You don't have a lot of time to think on a wave, and the brain is picking up a lot of information and we manage a lot through proprioception and the vestibular system, more so than the visual system, and more with those two elements of nervous system control. So, it's so cool how you need to do this as a...
**Michael Frampton**
So, what were you looking at, the discussion you were having with this person you mentioned just at the start of that bit? Any conclusions or?
**Candice Land**
Yeah, we're both big believers in creating a more efficient athlete. I'm a big believer in the fact that we have more available to us than we realize. If we just look at emotions or maybe like a framework issue like misalignment or something along those lines, there's factors that can play into how efficient we are as athletes. We're so—I'm generalising by saying we—but I'm concerned that as a culture, now we're so motivated to just kind of go hardcore and to go straight into strength and conditioning and to look at strength and to look at load and to look at high-performance training and to do all those sort of things without understanding or realising what we've already got available to us. And when you look at the best surfers, or if I'm at a contest and I see a surfer that's completely on fire, it comes down to how efficient they are with movement because movement efficiency allows them to collect energy, to transfer it into something else, and to turn it into power. So it's the timing on the wave, it's the smoothness and the way that they can draw down into their turns to collect energy and then turn that into something else and explode out their spins, whatever it might be. So we're both big believers in that side of things. Yes, go to load. Yes, do all those things. Absolutely. We have to have strong athletes, but it's part of the spectrum of training so that you're not missing out on everything that you've got available to you over here. That's our approach.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'll give you a short story that kind of exemplifies that. I was working with a very high-level athlete a few years ago, a rugby athlete. And at the time, I'd just done three DNS courses and I was heavily into DNS stuff. And the first time I had him in the gym, I just wanted to watch and see what he could do, what he was doing already. And he was deadlifting about 120 kilos. And then all we did was some DNS-based tweaks to the way that he was holding himself. And it's because he was such a high-level athlete, he just picked it up straight away. He's like, all of a sudden could organise his body in a new way. And then I was like, okay, well, let's try deadlift with those positions in mind. And then he went, he literally went from 120 kilos up to 160. And I was like, okay, we've got to stop now because you've never lifted that much. He's saying it's easy, but no, we've got to stop. So just by organising his skeletal system in a more efficient position based on the DNS stuff, his strength went up. So I think strength actually has a lot more to do with efficiency, really.
**Candice Land**
Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's got to do with the eccentric phase before the concentric phase. So how you set up a movement is really important. And that's where movement efficiency comes in, because if you break it back down all the way back to human evolution, it always comes down to survival. So for humans, the way that our bodies evolved, like I said before, was to be able to find food in lots of different environments. So we have this body that's designed to be able to do all sorts of varieties of movement—jump, run, spin, swim, you name it—so we can find food in all sorts of different environments. The other thing that we got designed into our framework and into our physiology was to be efficient. So that to me is what we're designed to actually be—efficient. That's the way our whole body was designed to work. And so that comes down to how do you load into the body and how do you eccentrically load and how do you collect energy within the body. Because if there is a breakdown in that, it's too calorie expensive. So the movement is costing you more than it should. And you can see that. You can see people are strong and they can muscle their way through movement.
**Michael Frampton**
Great. What's the cost of that? Hmm. I'm going to ask you, so I love the sort of evolutionary biologist sort of background to what you just said there. It leads me to ask you the question, because that makes me think of sort of the hunter-gatherer world, and whereas the men typically were the ones who were running, jumping, climbing, doing a lot of the heavy lifting per se, so it makes complete sense to train a male athlete like that. But is the same true for female athletes?
**Candice Land**
It is. We have a dual-function pelvis, so our pelvis evolved to be wider, because the pelvis for a man is just going to enable you to be bipedal, walk, run. For a female, we had to be bipedal, but then we also had to carry and birth a child. So the shape of our pelvis is different. The other thing that's different is the shape of the actual bony structures around the shoulder girdle. So it tends to be a shallower joint. And there's some differences around muscle fibres and things like that. But evolutionarily, we're still designed to do those two things as a species, yep.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. So when it comes to training the female athlete, how do those differences change what you do?
**Candice Land**
I'm a big believer in pelvic alignment and pelvic stability. I have a DNS background as well, I've done a few of the DNS training. So I'm a big believer in trunk stability and core stability, functional core stability in terms of making an athlete more efficient and being able to transfer load. For women, I feel that because we can't rely on fast-twitch muscle fibres and big muscle mass necessarily—we can train and develop those things to an extent—and I feel that that's an area that female athletes can really encapsulate: the ability to transfer load so that they work really efficiently mechanically and they connect all the dots in their body. That's our world where we can really capitalise on the power that's available to us. So I will try to incorporate that. And a big key component to that for women is the pelvis. To me, the pelvis is like a keystone joint. Like, did you do any of the footwork stuff with the DNS community with Marco Rintala and his online stuff?
**Michael Frampton**
A little bit. I've also looked at the foot through other modalities, yeah.
**Candice Land**
You know how it's like a bridge, right? And you've got the keystone in the bridge and how well that keystone works determines whether the bridge stays up or whether it collapses. I consider the pelvis also one of the keystone joints in the body. If it gets stuck in a certain position or if it's destabilising before it needs to, if it gets stuck in what we call like a swing phase of gait instead of being able to be stable and handle stance and single-leg load, it interrupts the whole mechanics of the body. It can drive you into neck pain. It can drive you into shoulder pain. And so for women, where we have this wider pelvis and we have this Q-angle where the knees come in a little bit, that to me is an area that we really need to focus on with female athletes as a potential powerhouse and in reducing low limb injuries. So I will look into that as well. But that's first and foremost before I will even go into like shoulders and things like that. For me, it's about again making female athletes more efficient, and how do we protect the female athlete, how do we protect the female body, and how do we make it more robust and more adaptable? How do we power up this body? So those are the two things that I would tend to look at initially. Does that make sense?
**Michael Frampton**
Definitely.
**Michael Frampton**
That's essentially, that's very much DNS thinking as well, just in general. Do you find that the female athletes are actually more open to diving into some of the more subtleties of DNS than the male athletes, who just want to do some deadlifts and do what they do on TV?
**Candice Land**
I think it's hard to say. I've got male athletes that I've worked with over, like, oh, it's nearly a decade now. In the surfing scene, I see them at the contest and they come and say hi. I catch up and see how their bodies are going. And you've always got to get that athlete buy-in. The athlete buy-in is the results and the change that they get. So if you can get that—regardless of gender—if you can get that with an athlete, then they're more inclined to understand the value and benefit of that form of exercise. Are women more open-minded to it? I would say that it depends on their background of training they've had and also the influence of the coach. I've actually had instances where the coach hasn't allowed the athlete to do anything outside of strength training because, "This is the Olympic model," or, "This is the high-performance model, so this is what we're doing." I'm concerned about the rigidity that's coming into the surf training model. But then you've got role models in the sport that are still doing their own thing and still getting really good results with that. So I think that helps as well. But if they're more open-minded to it or not, I couldn't say whether women are a lot.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's a shame that there are so many studies out there saying how bad heavy weightlifting is—not just for athletes like surfers, but for almost anyone really.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, I think there's a time and a place. There's been a lot of research to show the benefits of load training, and I think for female athletes it's really important because, especially as we change across the lifespan, we get to this point where estrogen isn't such a dominant hormone anymore, and estrogen has a really protective effect on muscular tissue, so we'll lose muscle mass quite quickly. And so that has a ricochet effect through the body in terms of injury as an older athlete and in terms of just being able to do the sport the way that you've always done it. So strength training, I think, has a little bit more—no, not a little bit more—I just think it's important, an important ingredient for female athletes to consider. But I think it's also important for surf athletes to understand their own body and to have the ability to work with what works well for them, rather than having to fit a rigid framework. And you need a versatile practitioner and approach to be able to understand that spectrum and for it to be a very athlete-centered approach to training.
**Michael Frampton**
So you mentioned DNS?
**Candice Land**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
You still use a lot of that?
**Candice Land**
Heaps. I still use a lot of it. I find it as a reorganization tool in terms of faulty movement patterns. Yes. It was embedded so early into our central nervous system from a developmental perspective. You couldn't learn a movement pattern until you stabilized in a particular way. The body had to get stabilization first before it could develop the next motor pattern, as you know. So if we can draw back to that organization, you still see the body able to let go and come back to improving motor patterns. So I find it really good at unlocking things and creating change in a very short amount of time. So when I'm working at events, I'll use that as a modality. I use quite a lot of different modalities, but I will still use DNS principles.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So what are some of the other courses that you've done over the years and, in particular, which ones had the biggest influence on what you do now?
**Candice Land**
I first—you know, I am absolutely fascinated by the nervous system. I first became exposed to the nervous system when I was doing my post-grad in occupational therapy, of all things. And I delved heavily into the nervous system from a developmental perspective and dealing with pediatric health, then also dealing with things like stroke recovery. That to me, I couldn't understand why—that was a game changer for me. It totally changed the way that I saw movement. The muscles are the end point of the story. So it changed the way that I assessed and it changed the way that I prescribed movement. So I've been interested in that. And then through pediatrics, I've also been interested in the developmental stages of movement and how that all kind of gets integrated and where it can go wrong as adults, what we can kind of pull back through. So those two things. I've done additional training around integrated neurology stuff. I'm fascinated with the vestibular system, so I'm diving into that a bit right now. But then I also don't want to pull too far away from the strength and conditioning side of things as well. Because I have to span the spectrum of injury prevention and injury recovery into managing complex injuries and complex movement patterns all the way into high-performance training. And that's just in the realm of musculoskeletal—that's not even including everything else that I need influence from a physiological perspective. So we just look at that. So I want to make sure that I fill that spectrum. So some of my training has also included things like kettlebell training courses and additional strength training courses just to know that I can still communicate with that audience and I can still bridge that, and then I bring it all. So I'll still manipulate some of these exercises. I say to people, "Right, you're at the point now where we're going to go to the gym. I'm gonna give you your strength training program, but it's gonna be your nerdy strength training program," okay? So that I can bring in some of those postural elements and some of the DNS stuff and some of the pelvic restoration stuff into your strength-based program. Sometimes I try to remember the specific names of courses, but I can't.
**Michael Frampton**
I like that approach, and I agree. I didn’t mean to sound anti-strength training before. It's just I think you see a lot of athletes just overdo the deadlift, the bench press, and the squat, and you can see, and then they just end up getting big without necessarily getting functionally strong.
**Candice Land**
I think I can understand and see how that holds athletes together in bigger, more powerful surf where they have to be working against some pretty big external forces. But I do also think that we don't operate that—we’re not—I think sometimes of load as sound. So that when we're under load from a nervous system perspective, if we think about it in terms of sound, it's very high volume, very noisy. So you're under this load, you've got weight on your body, your brain knows where everything is in space, the volume is being turned up, and it's a noisy, loud environment. If you think about how often we're in that context in surfing, when is that? When are we getting the most input and most noise into our body from a movement perspective?
**Michael Frampton**
I would say in heavy surf or wipeout.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, yeah. If we're dealing with a wave that wants to compress us, and we have to kind of resist against that, if it's a lot of water moving, and we really have to load into that bottom turn to really be able to manage that power and control that power, it would be when we go to execute a turn, where the timing is, or if we need to, again, load back into a bottom turn to collect energy. But then what's happening in between that movement? Unless it's on a big, heavy, powerful moving...
**Michael Frampton**
...wave, the volume turns down.
**Candice Land**
Yeah. We need to be able to have strategies that enable us to work on the high-volume situations and low-volume situations and then be able to dial the volume up and the volume down.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I guess I kind of think of high-level top-to-bottom surfing as kind of jumping and landing based really.
**Candice Land**
On and off. Yeah. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
There's a nice smoothness.
**Candice Land**
It's like the same thing with walking. You know, walking is meant to be so efficient that it costs you very little energy. But we're not doing that. We're not doing that, are we? But if I—you know, faulty movement patterns I see just in walking. You know, and that bipedal gait, that opposite arm to opposite leg situation, is prevalent in so many other activities that we do in the real world. And I think, you can squat this and you can bench press this, that's awesome. But you can't get this? You're not stable on a single leg. So we kind of need to look at this as well.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and you mentioned neurological side of things a lot there as well. And I certainly—the type of training that I've done personally that affected my surfing the most was when I was doing a lot of DNS. I was learning it and working with clients as well as seeing someone one-on-one at least once a week. And I was doing a lot of vestibular and ocular training at the same time. And I actually got to the point where I was able to go—I went to Fiji on a surf trip and I was really nervous because I get seasick in a bath. But I think because I'd been doing so much vestibular and ocular training, I just didn't get seasick.
**Candice Land**
That's awesome. Got to keep that up because that deteriorates as we age. And for women, that change fluctuates in a single cycle. So women will have changes in their particular capacities within a single cycle. So all of those things kind of come into play. So then, knowing that, then, does that shift and change how you would develop your own training program?
**Michael Frampton**
I would think so. You’d want to be cycling in time with the moon, personally.
**Candice Land**
But also, now knowing how the DNS work that you did and the vestibular and ocular work that you did, how that enhanced your performance—would you be more inclined to go to the gym and focus on strength? Or would you be more inclined to do that training that you did prior to Fiji?
**Michael Frampton**
I'd do a mixture of both. Yeah.
**Candice Land**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, definitely.
**Candice Land**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Just, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
**Candice Land**
And I think that’s fun. I think that makes it fun. I think if you can work across the whole spectrum, it makes training a journey, not just a routine.
**Michael Frampton**
Definitely. I mean, I challenge anyone out there to stand on one leg with your eyes closed. That's not as easy as you think.
**Candice Land**
I'm doing it this morning. I was like, okay, we need to do some work on this.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's hard. And then try and do it with your eyes closed and your head moving. It's interesting because I've had the pleasure of working with some high-level athletes. That's a test I'd always do. And some of the best athletes, they're just like, oh yeah. They'll just stand on one leg with their eyes closed and just do it. Even though they've never trained to do it, they're just naturally gifted. They've been gifted with a great vestibular system through their genetics or their background or whatever.
**Candice Land**
Yeah. And I think if you took a surfer and you did it on a flat surface, they would manage differently on an unstable surface.
**Michael Frampton**
Mmm.
**Candice Land**
The surfer is always on a surface that's moving.
**Michael Frampton**
Don't you think the vestibular system would be pretty quick to learn that though, like if it's a high level?
**Candice Land**
It's adaptable. Yeah, if it's adaptable. And there's things that kind of play into that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Mmm. I think it also, like someone who's got an incredible vestibular system—I mean, you look at a surfer going through a barrel section with lots of chandeliers, with vision gone—and they just come through. It doesn't seem to bother them.
**Candice Land**
And they always know where they are in space to be able to land that exactly where they need to be landing that, to then go into another turn straight away. I love seeing that. Are you doing much sort of isolated vestibular work with any athletes? Yes and no. I want to upskill in that area before I do whole people work in that area because I do think it's high risk. So I tend to baseline set it up through the highest cervical area and then do some eye tracking training and then also eyes closed, eyes open, that sort of thing. I think it's a really unique skill set.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, there are also ways to sort of—you don’t necessarily have to isolate it—you can add in fun little stuff so they don't even realize they're doing it sort of thing.
**Candice Land**
Very true. Yeah, like strobed glasses are a great way to do that. Or get them to blink, blink slowly, or yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Just jump into—I don’t know if you have discovered Z-Health yet, but they’ve got heaps of cool stuff on that website. You're giving me so many cool things today. So that’s Dr. Cobb. He's a chiropractor neurologist guy who, oh man, years ago, decided to start training personal trainers in neurology. And in particular, you know, the vestibular and ocular system. So he's got a lot of really—he starts base level. So there’s heaps of free videos on his website as well, and he's got a course on vestibular training and vision training as well.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, a bit in terms of—yeah—and the concussion side of things. Yes. It’s good that it’s developing as a treatment like that, modulating.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And for prevention as well, like I know if you get concussed without seeing it coming especially, your concussion is worse. But it also actually narrows your peripheral vision post-concussion, which makes you more susceptible to another concussion, because your center vision—essentially you lose part of your peripheral vision. So if you're training your peripheral vision to rehab your peripheral vision and even improve it, that can help as well. They talk about that on Z-Health a lot as well. A friend of mine who did the Z-Health stuff, he’s now into cognitive training as well. So it’s really interesting, man. You should have a look at his website too—SomaNPT. He’s got an app that’s got all things like strobe, so Stroop tests and visual reaction, audio reaction, yes/no, go/no-go sort of drills on that app. Really fascinating stuff. He’s working with some of the football teams in Europe and the Formula One drivers in Europe with all that sort of stuff.
**Candice Land**
Yeah, awesome. All that responsiveness and that decision making that you don't even have time to make—that lightning stuff that you need.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm. And what's really fascinating about that—he’s doing a lot of studies with universities at the moment too—is they'll test VO₂ max and the athlete won’t change any of their physical training, but they start adding in the cognitive training whilst they might just be on the bike or a treadmill doing their standard cardio training, but they'll add in the cognitive stuff so they might be doing Stroop tests or visual reaction tests, and they're seeing an increase in their VO₂ simply because the prefrontal cortex is dealing with the whole thing better. So it’s fascinating. Really cool. Yeah, really cool.
**Candice Land**
You’ve added to my diving list.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, there’s so much out there, right?
**Candice Land**
Yeah, I spent all morning reading articles. I’m like, oh, brain. Come on, brain.
**Michael Frampton**
Keep going. So let's speak to this—the average recreational surfer that might be listening now, the female one in particular. What considerations should they be making to their training and in recommendations? Like what should they be doing and not doing for the average athlete?
**Candice Land**
Yes. So for the average athlete—I think as a female, sometimes the hardest thing is that we don’t necessarily know what we’re dealing with. We haven’t had a lot of time to really understand our own biology and physiology and how to manipulate that in the world of exercise prescription that suits us the best. We've kind of just been basing it off research, as you know, that’s been predominantly done on men. So there’s a lot of mistruth and misunderstanding. So I think as the recreational female athlete—and even the elite female athlete now—is in this really cool realm or this really cool time where we can really begin to understand ourselves. So it means that you just need to cue in and listen to yourself. You are going to have fluctuations. You are going to be in states of evidence low. But just clue in and monitor yourself and get in touch with yourself and start to understand your own rhythms, rather than kind of blowing them off as if they’re nothing. So for example, I didn’t realize this until I started, you know, tracking my own cycles and getting a good understanding of my own rhythms—why I would turn up to, let’s say, Cabarita, and it would be two- to three-foot glassy, sunny day, similar conditions to where I was a week ago, and I wouldn’t want to go surfing. Like I would actually be anxious about going surfing. And I'd just be like, what are you doing? Like, I’d talk so—I'd be so hard on myself. What are you doing? Why don’t you want to get in the water? You’ve only got this amount of time, get in, go, go, go, go, go. But inside, my body’s like, no, I don’t want to. I don’t want to go. I didn’t realize that shift in anxiety was actually a cyclical pattern for me. So in understanding that, I could prepare myself better for those moments so that now I don’t experience that so much. But at the time I was able to bring in strategies to help me manage that a lot better. So I think paying attention to your own cycles is really, really important and what you experience. And just get your head around who you are personally as an athlete, because regardless of what—the one consistency in the research around female athletes is—it’s still very inconclusive. It’s still very much based on the individual athlete. So we have a responsibility to really understand ourselves. So that would be the first thing. It’s a really cool time to explore who you are as an athlete. And I think the other thing to know is that as women, we have these significant changes across the lifespan as well. So for me, another journey that I’ve experienced personally as an athlete as well is the discrepancy between what I was like as an athlete at 25 and what I’m like as an athlete now at 40-something. What used to work for me and what I used to be able to tolerate at 25, and what I can tolerate now at 40-something—there's a big difference there in terms of fatigue profiles, in terms of the way that I need to manage myself nutritionally, in terms of my stress profile and cortisol and what I can tolerate in an exercise session and what will burn me out. There's big differences there. So we need to understand that we also fluctuate across the lifespan. So be prepared to be able to adjust the way you're surfing. So if you started surfing at the age of 45, but you're watching what a 25-year-old would do on social media for their surf training, and if it’s not the right fit, then don’t beat yourself up about that. You might be in a different lifespan where you need to support your body in a different way. So to understand that. And another thing is—if I was going to pull this back and go, this is actually—this is the number one question that I get asked from the female surfer community. The number one question is: where do I start? How do I get started? This is recreational athletes from the age of 20 through to 55. And so that’s the number one question. So I developed from that two things. One was a female surfer screening protocol, which is designed around age, around the female biology and physiology and how our bodies work, and matching that against the demands of that particular athlete’s type of surfing so that they can figure out from that assessment screening, oh okay, I need to work on my balance, or I need to work on my fitness, or whatever it might be. It’s a way for them to really hone in as an individual. And the second thing I did was develop the pillar system. So the pillar system is based off screening hundreds of female surf athletes from beginner level to CT level and understanding from injury data and the injury information that we get from a competitive perspective and understanding the challenges that female athletes experience with progressing their surfing. And if I had to pick the top three things, what would they be? And out of those top three things, what would be the most important? So the neuro root, you know, is core stability. So if you’re going to start somewhere and you had no idea where to start, pull it all back—come back to core stability. It’s a really important injury prevention capacity for female athletes, particularly when it comes to lower limb injuries. It’s really important for powering up our surfing and being able to transfer load and to manage the demands of surfing, even though we might have a smaller shoulder muscle mass size. So I will always start with a female athlete—if they only have limited time and they only have the mental capacity to do one thing—that would be where I would start.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. Does that help?
**Candice Land**
Definitely, definitely. So it sounds like you alluded to some programs that you have on your website.
**Michael Frampton**
I do. I have programs that actually—I always rehash them and redo them. So they’re actually all about to be updated. But I have the pillar-based system on the website, and the surfer screening is also on the website. And then we’ve been doing some really fun surf trip preparation training, which is orientated around preparation for surf trips, and that in itself now is going to be designed into another program because that’s actually been running really well.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, what’s the pillar program?
**Candice Land**
So the pillar program—there are three short courses that you can do. Each course is designed to last for four weeks. You start with core stability, then you go into upper body development, and then you've got lower body development. The lower body development is really about helping female athletes power up their lower limbs for force and speed generation. And so we’d be looking at things like we were talking about early on in the podcast around eccentrically loading. How do we collect energy? Where do we need to be stable to do this? With the upper body stuff, it’s around being able to improve our paddling capacity, popping up, all that sort of stuff. And duck diving, and the challenges of making sure that you have the strength to be taking off in the most critical part of that wave and also getting yourself out of trouble. So that’s the upper body course. And the first one is the most important pillar, which is the core stability. So that was set up to—again, if you were going to cover the foundations—you would actually be dealing with those three courses and in that order of importance.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. How do you describe the core stability?
**Candice Land**
Oh, yeah. I have an educational component about this in the course, and it’s the Female Surfer approach to core stability. For me, it’s very much orientated—I won’t go into too much detail—but it’s very much orientated around the axial skeleton, because that is the axis of movement. So that’s what core is to me. It’s from head to pubic bone. It includes the scapula, it includes the shoulder blades, it includes the pelvis, it includes the organisation and the alignment of the spine, it includes the jaw—all those sorts of things.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, so we’re talking not just sets of planks?
**Candice Land**
No, no. And I know there’s a—yeah, I’m not a big believer, again, in bracing when it comes to core stability. Bracing is a strategy that the body uses, again, under heavier load. But if you’re doing things like planks, then that’s not necessarily making you adaptable in your core. Core is designed to enable you to stay upright and stable in space, and it’s designed to help you transfer load, and it’s there for movement efficiency, basically, yeah. It makes a more robust and more powerful athlete. But you know when it’s dysfunctional, as you know. You know when it’s not working for somebody—you can see it in the movement.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And what’s the name of—
**Candice Land**
Your website? Thefemalesurfer.com.
**Michael Frampton**
Perfect. I will put links to that in the show notes. And you’re on Instagram as well. Remind me of your handle?
**Candice Land**
@thefemalesurfer.
**Michael Frampton**
Too easy. Again, I’ll put links to that in the show notes. We could talk for hours, but it’s coming up to the top of the hour, so we’ll leave it there for today.
**Candice Land**
Yeah. Well, yeah, wow. Cool. It’s been fun to get on again.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Love to have you on.
**Candice Land**
Cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, thank you so much, Candice.
**Candice Land**
Thank you.
**Michael Frampton**
For the listeners, go check the show notes out.
**Candice Land**
Cool. Too easy.
**Michael Frampton**
Thanks so much.
**Candice Land**
No, thank you.

104 Candice Land - Exercise Physiologist for WSL and Creator of "The Female Surfer"
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**103 Captain Liz Clark - Adventure Surfer** Sep 26, 2024

What if the best way to improve your surfing has nothing to do with your technique—and everything to do with how you live?
Captain Liz Clark sailed across the Pacific solo for over a decade in search of waves, connection, and meaning. In this deep and honest episode, she shares how facing danger, solitude, and self-doubt at sea helped her redefine success—not just as a surfer, but as a human. Liz offers a rare perspective on flow, fear, and femininity that goes way beyond the lineup.
Discover why inner peace and purpose matter more than performance for true surfing progression
Hear how a competitive surfer became an environmental activist through her voyage of awakening
Learn how letting go of control and comparison can unlock lasting stoke and deeper flow states
Hit play to hear how surfing, sailing, and self-love came together in Captain Liz Clark’s unforgettable journey—and why her story could change your relationship with the ocean forever.
Links to Liz:
https://swellvoyage.com
https://www.instagram.com/captainlizclark/?hl=en
The sponsor for this episode is https://flatrockwetsuits.com.au
Enter code MASTER15 for 15% off a new wetsuit.
**Key Points**
Surfing is central to Liz's lifestyle, allowing her to enjoy freedom and a year-round surfing experience.
Liz's first surf experience was at age 15, staying in the whitewater with a friend, which hooked her on surfing.
Liz's relationship with the ocean is deeply intertwined with her sense of peace, acceptance, and personal growth.
Liz's biggest fear during her ocean adventures was not the physical dangers but the fear of failure as a captain.
Liz's voyage led to an awakening in terms of self-discovery, understanding her place in the world, and spiritual connection.
Liz emphasizes the importance of inner alignment and self-awareness for achieving flow states and success in surfing.
Liz's journey was driven by a desire to live close to nature, simplify life, and align with her environmental values, with surfing as a significant component.
Liz advises surfers to focus on enjoying themselves and the benefits of being in the ocean rather than solely on performance improvement.
Liz's definition of femininity evolved during her voyage, emphasizing confidence, self-love, and embracing one's unique style.
Liz's current adventure involves community activism through a campaign to spay and neuter animals on her island.
**Outline**
**Liz Clark's Relationship with Surfing**
Liz Clark's relationship with surfing began in high school when a friend took them out on a surfboard.
Surfing is central to Liz's life, influencing their decisions and lifestyle.
Liz describes surfing as a source of freedom, salvation, and inspiration.
**Liz Clark's Relationship with the Ocean**
The ocean has been a place of peace and acceptance for Liz since youth.
Liz spent over a decade traveling the ocean on a sailboat, facing numerous challenges.
Liz's relationship with the ocean is characterized by love, respect, and a healthy amount of fear.
**Liz Clark's Solo Voyage**
Liz embarked on a solo voyage in their early twenties, traveling through the Pacific on a sailboat named Swell.
The voyage was fraught with risks, including injuries, pirates, and long-distance voyaging.
Liz's determination and desire to continue the voyage were instilled from a young age, growing up on boats.
**Definition of 'Captain' and 'Failure'**
Liz defines a captain as someone who manages a ship safely and delivers passengers safely to their destination.
Failure, for Liz, would be running the boat aground on a reef or deciding the voyage was too scary and giving up.
**Awakening and Self-Discovery**
The subtitle of Liz's book, 'A Sailing Surfer's Voyage of Awakening,' refers to discovering oneself and understanding one's place in the world.
Liz's journey led to an awakening in terms of self-discovery, spirituality, and connection to the universe.
The voyage accelerated Liz's inner growth and self-awareness.
**Flow States and Surfing**
Liz believes that flow states are a beautiful thing and can be influenced by inner alignment and choices.
Surfing in flow states can be elicited by challenging situations, though sometimes it can have the opposite effect if one is exhausted.
Liz had moments where they put surfing ahead of their instincts, leading to close calls with disaster.
**Best Surfing Experiences**
Liz had many good surfing experiences, but the best ones were those that were earned through challenges and required effort.
The appreciation for good waves is heightened when they are not easily accessible, emphasizing the value of effort and adventure.
**Driving Force Behind the Trip**
Surfing was one of the principal driving forces behind Liz's trip, along with a desire to live close to nature and simplify life.
Liz saw the journey as a way to escape the modern world and live in alignment with their environmental values.
**Advice for Surfers**
Liz advises surfers to focus on enjoying themselves and having fun, rather than solely improving performance.
Embracing one's own style and personality in surfing is key to improvement and enjoyment.
Letting go of expectations and pressure can increase the chance of entering flow states and improve surfing.
**Liz's Current Surfing and Lifestyle**
Liz surfs three to four times a week and is based in Tahiti.
Liz attributes their improved surfing at age 44 to taking care of their body, eating healthy, and practicing yoga.
Living on land since 2018 has allowed Liz to focus more on surfing and improve quicker.
**Book Recommendations**
Liz recommends 'The Four Agreements' by Don Ruiz Miguel for self-growth and self-awareness.
For adventure books, Liz suggests 'Paddling Your Own Canoe' by Audrey Sutherland and 'The Long Way' by Bernard Moitissier.
Liz also recommends 'Halaiki Rising,' the story of the Hokulea and the rediscovery of Polynesian navigation.
**Definition of Femininity**
Liz's definition of femininity has evolved from traditional ideals to a more personal and confident expression.
Liz's voyage allowed them to redefine femininity based on confidence, self-love, and embracing one's true self.
Embracing femininity has positively impacted Liz's sailing, surfing, and overall life enjoyment.
**Advice to Younger Self**
Liz would advise their younger self to embrace obstacles as opportunities, challenges as learning experiences, and difficult people as chances to practice virtues.
Loving oneself and not comparing to others would have avoided much pain and frustration.
**Current Adventures and Activism**
Liz is currently involved in a campaign to spay and neuter dogs and cats on the island where they live to reduce overpopulation and animal suffering.
This community activism represents a shift from sailing adventures to working with others and the government on local challenges.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Let me start. I want to ask you, do you remember your first wave, your first surf?
**Liz Clark**
I do. I do. I was in high school. I think I was a freshman in high school, so 15. And I had a friend who was a surfer, and she offered to take me out on her board one day. And we just stayed in the whitewater the whole time. And I don't even think I stood up all the way. But I got the feeling of the glide and just being out there in the ocean, which was something I already loved so much. And yeah, I was hooked. I was absolutely hooked.
**Michael Frampton**
So now, what does surfing mean to you now?
**Liz Clark**
Well, I mean, surfing is such a foundational part of my life. It's just one of the biggest pillars that I revolve my world around. And so, yeah, surfing means so much to me. I shape so many of my decisions around it, you know, based on being able to keep freedom and have a lifestyle that allows me to surf when the waves are good and be in a place where I can enjoy that year-round. Yeah, it's my salvation and my playground. And, you know, it gives me so, so much.
**Michael Frampton**
How would you describe your relationship to the ocean?
**Liz Clark**
My relationship to the ocean. I mean, the ocean has given me so much, you know, when you think back to. When I think back to my youth and just how the ocean was always a place that I could go to feel at peace and accepted. Always kind of a medium where I felt like I could be myself. And then, of course, when I spent ten years, you know, more than a decade and thousands of miles traveling the ocean on my sailboat. You know, the ocean gave me so many challenges and, you know, was a place where I was forced to grow in so many ways that, yeah, our relationship is something of like love and respect and a healthy amount of fear, but there's so much more to gain than, you know, to fear in my opinion, so something I keep going back to all the time to feel good, to stay inspired, to keep feeling a purpose in my life, and so yeah, I'm very close to the ocean and hope that I will get to continue to be.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned fear. When it comes to the ocean, what is your biggest fear?
**Liz Clark**
You know, I've learned to kind of calculate my risks in my 40s now, you know, I used to kind of fling myself madly at my ocean escapades, but, you know, now I tend to use a bit more calculated risk when it involves surfing and, you know, long-distance voyaging or sailing adventures. But yeah, I mean, I don't really, to be honest, focus on the scariest parts, so I don't really even know what I would fear the most. I try to focus on the good parts, and I think that's always served me.
**Michael Frampton**
Obviously, yeah, because I'm getting out on a solo voyage in your early, was it your 20s? Yeah, like, there's so much, like a young woman by herself on a second-hand boat, like surfing to surf reef passes, like injuries, pirates, like the list of risks is insane. Like, what gave you the mouse to sit across such upon such a voyage? Like, where did it come from?
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, to be honest, I don't know. It's almost like it was born and instilled it into me always because, you know, I had the experience of growing up on boats and getting a taste of that pleasure of seeing the world by boat as a young child. You know, neither my brother or my sister ever had quite the same desire as I did to continue that and live it out in such a way that I did. So I don't really know exactly where it came from, but the determination to do it and the desire was always just such a huge part of my world and I didn't really question why. And yeah, the risks, I knew what the risks were and people were constantly telling me and talking about them, especially in the several years that I spent preparing the boat for the voyage. You know, there was just constantly people telling me why this was not a good idea and kind of naysaying it. I think there was a deep down, I really knew that there was more to gain than to lose and that those risks were going to be like part of the fun. At that age, I was really, you know, I loved the idea of adventure and unknown and kind of just going without a plan. So at that time, there was parts of that that appealed to me. You know, what really I feared, I think most, as I set out, was failure, you know, like failing my job as people that helped me and whether it was financially or, you know, sweat, blood and tears. There was just a lot riding on me pulling it all off. So that was the biggest fear, was just that I couldn't perform as a captain or, you know, do, fulfill those duties or things that I needed to do to be successful at the voyage.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, how did you define the word "captain," and what would have failure looked like?
**Liz Clark**
I mean, captain, I define as being able to manage your ship safely, to be able to, you know, your passengers safely to the other side. You know, at the beginning of the voyage, I was always with different crew and friends who had very little boating experience. And so there was a lot of responsibility on me to make sure everybody stayed safe and understood the basics of, you know, what the risks were of being out there on the ocean. So, I think that's my definition of being a captain or being a good captain. And I would have defined failure at that point as, you know, running the boat aground on the reef or, you know, in a way that it would have been like a repairable damage to swell or, you know, just deciding that it all too scary for me and I didn't want to do it, you know, giving up in some kind of way like that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, so having to be rescued basically.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, yeah, sinking or running aground would have been really, really a, for me, it would have been a big sad ending to a beautiful thing.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm. The subtitle to the book is *A Sailing Surfer’s Voyage of Awakening.* That sounds quite, it's quite a spiritual subtitle. What do you mean by "awakening," and describe what that means to you. What's that journey of awakening?
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, I think it means many things. To me, it meant awakening in terms of me discovering myself and knowing who I am as a person, as a woman. That was a huge part of the journey and then also kind of an awakening to the realities of the world and understanding my place in it, a connection as well to my spirituality and like a deeper understanding of my place in the universe. All of those things were kind of like an unexpected part of what I did. I really set out kind of with just the idea that I was, you know, going out there to find remote waves and surf these breaks and have fun. And, you know, there was just so much more to it. When I actually got out there, I learned that to be able to succeed at what I was doing, it was really important for me to be able to look within and remove any of those obstacles that were blocking me from being kind of like in alignment with the greater forces of the world. Because when you're out there, you're so vulnerable and so dependent on nature and the ocean to kind of cooperate with you, that it really became apparent that, you know, my inner journey and my outer world had connected in a really important way. And that, you know, doing the work within, I would be rewarded on in the physical world, you know, externally, I guess?
**Michael Frampton**
Well, what is it doing the work within?
**Liz Clark**
What do you mean by that? I think I mean looking within and seeing how I could be a better person, recognizing self-awareness, basically. You know, there's always things that we don't see being ourselves and that, you know, it takes, it took me time alone on the ocean with lots of time to reflect and really think about who I was and who I wanted to be, to be able to kind of like do that inner work, do that job of looking at things maybe you don't like about yourself or you want to do better at and kind of put them into play in your everyday life.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm assuming you're talking about in regards to others, like your relationship with other people?
**Liz Clark**
Definitely, but I think my relationship with myself as well. You know, yes, definitely with other people. You know, there was a point in my voyage where I wanted to make amends with everybody that I felt that I'd wronged in my life and, you know, wrote letters to different people that I wanted to apologize to or clarify something with. But there was also an ongoing relationship with myself that needed attention and, you know, me discovering my power as a woman, as a person, depended so heavily on me being able to be confident and learn to love myself really. That wasn't something that came naturally to me. I was kind of, I never thought that I deserved maybe as much as other people did. And so it took me time to kind of develop my self-worth, I guess I would say.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. And you mentioned the connection between the inner and outer worlds. Could you think of a literal example? Maybe when you were feeling a bit more self-worth and calmness, was the ocean calmer at the time?
**Liz Clark**
I don't think it was so directly visible, but I think, over time, I understood that, you know, not only my qualms but my attitude towards things. Like, during this voyage, you know, being on a boat, things are constantly breaking. I think there's just always challenges, you know, and at the beginning, I tended to very quickly get frustrated and want to throw my arms up and be like, you know, everything's never going my way. Then, at some point, I kind of realized like, if I don't find a way to see these challenges as opportunities or, you know, at least try to stay calm and accept that this is absolutely going to be constantly part of my reality on this journey, I would have given up within the first year. I had to transform my way of thinking about those challenges in order to find positivity in them because it would have just been constantly too hard. So I think over time as I began to understand that connection of me just feeling frustrated, it would almost always get worse if I reacted in that way to a problem or a difficult person that came into my life. If I resisted it and made a bigger fuss out of it, it always ended up being more challenging. So I think over time I realized like, okay, I've got to just consider this busted windless motor a chance to maybe meet some interesting people that are going to help me fix it. I found that over time, the challenges did lead me to really cool experiences if I could keep an open mind. And so I think it wasn't so overnight that I said, oh, I'm calm and the ocean's calm. No, the ocean was always throwing new challenges at me. It was just more a matter of me seeing the alignment between going with the flow in those moments and letting them lead me towards somewhere that maybe I didn't have in mind, and then getting there and having a really cool surprise happen. You know, having the wind push me in a direction that I didn't originally think I wanted to go, for example, and then getting to a place that I would have never gone to initially and discovering something really cool when I got there. Does that make sense? I kind of rambled on that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I like that. And it's also, I think that part of you was also very present before you set out on the journey. Do you see that in hindsight?
**Liz Clark**
I mean, I think it was probably always there. I think being out on the ocean and especially when I was sailing alone, just like the noise was gone and I could hear myself better and I could think clearer. It just accelerated the process of me having those realizations and understandings.
**Michael Frampton**
I think being in the environment that I was out on the ocean, yeah. Because, I mean, setting out on such a voyage at such a young age and ignoring all of the challenges and the people who were pointing out the barriers and challenges, there's certainly an element of faith that led you to do it anyway.
**Liz Clark**
Definitely. I certainly had a confidence in myself, a confidence in my capability to problem-solve and overcome obstacles that would come up—maybe to almost a scary degree. My parents might have thought that. But yeah, I wanted to try to improve and do better and be a good person, whatever that means to you. For me, being out there seemed to definitely accelerate the opportunities to have that inner growth in those relative areas.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever encounter any pirates?
**Liz Clark**
No, no real actual pirates. But definitely plenty of unpleasant men and situations that I had to avoid or be smart about. I was pretty hyper aware of those kinds of dangers. I'd say those were the scariest things to me at that point—encountering dangerous men more powerful than me that could do harm. I didn't overthink it or concentrate on it too much, but I definitely learned to tune into my instincts. And when I met someone that gave me an uncomfortable feeling, right away I would remove myself from the situation and do what I needed to do to not be in their path again.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So you had a few close calls in that regard?
**Liz Clark**
I mean, I had, yeah, definitely some moments that I wouldn't want to relive if I didn't have to. But in general, I think I was pretty smart about it. When I got to a new place, you always met people. Generally, upon arrival somewhere, the boating community is really small and I tended to connect with people who I felt safe with. Creating that little bubble of people who were kind of looking out for me was, I feel like, a really good way to navigate it. Do you think it was a rite of passage, in a way, the journey itself?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, absolutely.
**Liz Clark**
You know, I don't think young people have the same opportunities for that kind of experience in today's world, or we don't focus on it as much as certainly some civilizations and people did in the past. I do think I see the value in it so much after having done what I did in my 20s. I see young people not getting that opportunity or giving themselves that opportunity in that age group, and I wish that our society did more to say it's important for you to go out and spread your wings and fall if you have to and get back up—especially at that age—because you're really forging who you are. You're learning yourself. You're setting yourself up for the decisions you're going to make and the life path that you're going to choose ahead of you. So yeah, I believe I didn't intend a rite of passage really at the time, but it absolutely was that, looking back. Hmm, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Tell me, what are your thoughts on flow states?
**Liz Clark**
Well, I think they're a really beautiful thing and we're lucky when we find ourselves in those moments where things flow. I definitely think that we can—like I'm saying in terms of how our inner alignment affects our outer world—when we're making choices and doing things to keep our inner world healthy and feeling good, I do think that is reflected externally in how things kind of happen around us and definitely lead us towards being in flow state more often. I don't think we can be there all the time, but I think that's what makes it so special and keeps us aiming to tune back in and get aligned and try to find those special flow state moments again. You know, yes, I imagine if you've been sailing and you're tired and then you turn up to some reef pass and it's just pumping, it kind of has to be surfed, and the pressure of that situation would elicit a deep flow state, I imagine. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I think it would elicit the opposite because, you know, there were times when I would get somewhere and I was exhausted after a long passage and the surf would be good and I would force myself to go there when actually my body and everything was telling me, you need to rest. I was constantly in conflict because the boat and the safety of the boat had to always remain first priority. In my heart, I was a surfer and I wanted to just jump off that boat and go surfing sometimes, but a lot of times that couldn't be my reality. I had to deal with the priority of keeping the boat safe first. Interesting. Did you make some mistakes where you put surfing ahead of your own instincts? Absolutely. Especially at the beginning. I left my boat unattended in some bay and would go off hitchhiking to find waves and end up meeting some nice people and spend the night somewhere. Luckily for me, I never had any big problems. I never got too big of a consequence from some of those decisions that I made. But I definitely—there was a learning curve at the beginning. I would get back, and I remember in Puerto Escondido, I'd left the boat at anchor, gone on a little surf mission for a couple of days and came back. And when we pulled up the anchor to leave, the rope—the anchor rode—had been chafing on something on the bottom, and there was just like a tiny bit of rope holding it. So I had those moments where I got really close to disaster and learned that I had to keep my priorities straight if I wanted to avoid a crisis.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Can you remember a day or a spot where you got the best waves?
**Liz Clark**
I mean, I got so many good waves. But there was a lot of time where there'd be long stints in between sometimes because I'd be stuck somewhere fixing something and be in a port with dirty water where there was no surf around. But I think that's what made those experiences when I finally did get—when all the elements came together—and there was a safe anchorage and the waves were on and I had somebody fun to surf with, it just made it so precious. Those experiences had to be so earned that they were sacred, you know? Yeah, so lots and lots of good waves out there. It's just a matter of going out and getting off the beaten path. I think sometimes in today's world, I feel like when we have it too easy, we do lose that depth of appreciation that does make something so special. And yeah, that can kind of affect our experience in a way, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I agree. Pressure makes diamonds.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Is surfing—was surfing—the driving force behind the trip itself, or was it bigger than that?
**Liz Clark**
I think it was one of the principal driving forces. I think I also had this very deep desire to live really close to nature and simplify and kind of get away from this modern world that didn't always make sense to me. Always, from a young child, I wanted to protect nature and was an environmentalist and really wanted to go out there and try to experience a life where I could have a lower impact and live in alignment with my values in that way. And so I saw this journey as kind of a way to escape what I didn't think about the modern world and live those principles that I believed in. But yeah, surfing was absolutely a huge priority for me as well, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Because you won, in 2001, you were the NSSA College Women's National Surfing Champ.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So you've experienced competition surfing at a high level. And then you've also experienced what I would argue is probably the purest form of surfing, which is adventure and just surfing for the sake of surfing. So you've never chosen the easy path.
**Liz Clark**
No, I never really have. And I was so determined to get better at surfing in my teens, and I didn't come from a family of surfers. I didn't have any real role models close to me that could teach me to surf better. And so competition was a good way in my late teens and twenties to—I felt like—improve my surfing and meet other surfers and be part of the surf scene. But in the end, after I won that competition, I think I realized a few things. I realized that my love for surfing was more about those exploratory experiences. What I loved was being out there and going through nature, whether it was like sliding down a muddy hill or wondering what a certain break was going to be like on a certain tide and going for that adventure and figuring it out. I definitely found myself lighting up more in those moments. Then competition started to feel stressful and not as fun, I guess. I also kind of realized, coming without a surfing background—like without that in my family—the surfing world at that time, especially as a woman, seemed like you needed a lot of support. You needed to know people. It was kind of like a who's who thing at that point as well, and I didn't have that. I thought pursuing professional surfing is going to be really hard for me with the background that I have. So yeah, it seemed like, especially when the opportunity presented itself and this mentor came into my life who wanted to offer me this boat, it was like I can use all of this experience that I have growing up on boats, combine it with my love for exploratory surfing, and this is just like the epitome of my voyaging dreams and my surfing dreams coming together.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. What's some advice for surfers listening who want to improve their surfing? And I don't necessarily mean that only from a performance perspective. I think people want to get better at surfing not just to surf more difficult waves or catch more waves, but also to improve their relationship with surfing itself. So what advice would you give to surfers listening out there along those lines?
**Liz Clark**
I think my biggest advice would be to keep remembering that it's all about enjoying yourself and having fun. No matter if you're surfing more difficult waves or improving in the way that the surf world deems as being a better surfer, I think focusing on going out there to enjoy yourself and remembering the benefits of camaraderie and meeting other surfers—I think those are the important things to remember. I used to be so hard on myself if I didn't have a good session, and once I set out on the voyage and had this much more pure experience of surfing, I let go of a lot of those expectations on myself and really started to focus in on doing it because it's just so great. And when you do end up having one of those moments of improvement or when things come together for you, it's just so wonderful. But focusing too hard or putting too much pressure on yourself often backfires and makes it less enjoyable, and even causes you to not improve quickly because you're feeling negative about yourself or the situation.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think the letting go aspect increases the chance of a flow state, and really the deeper you get into a flow state is when time slows down and you read the wave at a better level and therefore you surf better. Absolutely. Yeah, and the more of those states you enter, over time the better your surfing gets overall.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, it's so much more about your connection to the ocean. Take, for example, the surfing of Leah Dawson. You think about her—she just breaks all the rules and does it her way, and that's what makes it so special. In my opinion, she's one of the best women surfers there is. So I think bringing your own charisma, your own personality into it and finding what feels good and enjoying it is really the way to go.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I agree. Karina Rozunko comes to mind—she's such a free spirit in the way she surfs, always looks like she's in a flow state. How often do you surf nowadays?
**Liz Clark**
As often as I can, which ends up being probably three to four times a week.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, awesome. And you're based in Tahiti now?
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, I'm lucky for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Is it the pick of the... after all your travels around the Pacific, was that your highlight?
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, I fell in love with French Polynesia for a lot of reasons, and waves were definitely on that list. But also the people and the culture here. I met my now husband, and so there were a lot of things that have kept me here. But yeah, the quality of the surf is so good, and I ended up wanting to stay here longer because at the time I was like, I'm only going to be able to surf waves of this level for so long. And it's funny because now I'm 44 and I'm surfing better than I ever have. It's all relative—it's all about staying healthy and continuing to enjoy it. My relationship with surfing, like anything, has its ups and downs or its moments where things plateau and you don't feel the same inspiration. But I'm at a really good place with surfing right now. It remains a huge source of re-inspiration and re-powering for me. I'm doing a ton of community activism and work here for the environment and for animals, and I give a lot of energy all the time. Then, when the waves turn on, it's like, okay, it's my turn, it's my time. I need to go fill my cup back up, and it really helps keep me going to be able to give.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. You mentioned you're surfing better now than ever at 44. What do you put that down to?
**Liz Clark**
Maybe just time in good waves, but also for sure taking care of my body, eating healthy, yoga—all of those things have allowed me to stay physically fit enough to keep doing it at the level that I'm doing it. So yeah, a combination of all those things, I guess.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think traveling to good tropical locations with good, uncrowded waves is probably the best thing you can do for your surfing—both to get better and just to experience surfing the way it should be.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, and I think too for me, all those years while I was living on *Swell* and the boat was my main residence, I always had to have the boat as the focal point. Like I said before, it just had to be the priority. Since late 2018, I moved onto land and have a land base and have been able to put more time into surfing, which has really allowed me to not stay at that same level where I would get to do it just enough to feel something again and make an improvement. Now I can go back out soon and just be able to improve quicker because my focus can be more right on that versus "this thing's broken and I got to take the boat to this other island to do this VAT." Always some sort of complication of living on the ocean.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I can imagine. Back to your voyage—did you take books with you?
**Liz Clark**
Oh yes, tons of books stuffed into all the compartments.
**Michael Frampton**
And if you had to choose only three of those books to recommend to others, what would they be?
**Liz Clark**
Okay, let's see. Top three books. I would say maybe in terms of self-growth and self-awareness, I would choose *The Four Agreements* by Don Miguel Ruiz. For adventure books, I think it would be between the book Audrey Sutherland wrote called *Paddling* and *The Long Way* by Bernard Moitessier. It's more of a sailing book, but his way of describing his relationship with the ocean and the way he kind of rebels against society—I saw a lot of our journey in that and really related to his story. I just recently read a book that I love called *Hōkūleʻa: How I Keep Rising*. It's the story of the Hōkūleʻa and how Polynesian navigation was kind of rediscovered through Nainoa Thompson and how they built this traditional sailing canoe and did the journey to Tahiti. It's so incredible learning how they rediscovered the use of the stars and the sky and the chart—it was fascinating.
**Michael Frampton**
Highly cool. Thanks for those recommendations.
**Liz Clark**
I'll make sure they're in the show notes.
**Michael Frampton**
I wanted to ask you—you sort of mentioned it before—femininity. How would you define that word? And how has the definition of it changed since you left Santa Barbara all those years ago?
**Liz Clark**
Well, I think growing up in Southern California, I had this impression that femininity had to be a certain way and that beauty in general and femininity were kind of wrapped up in this one sort of way that women were supposed to look. When I got out on my voyage, it took me years to break down those principles in my mind. It was so ingrained in me that femininity equaled pink dresses and big hair and lipstick and the things that are traditionally kind of associated with femininity. Understanding my own version of femininity and allowing myself to not only explore that but validate to myself what femininity could look like—being in places way off the beaten path where women weren't raised with those ideals at all and their confidence and beauty—I began to see femininity in a new light through a lot of these women that I met in these really remote places. I saw that it has so much more to do with your confidence and owning yourself and what you love. So yeah, being able to start incorporating those ideas into my own definition and version of femininity changed my life so much. To accept that I wasn't the girl who wanted to wear frilly dresses, but I was and am feminine in such a beautiful way. The femininity that is part of me is what allowed me to slow down and embrace nature in a way that maybe the more masculine side of me never really allowed. Especially trying to go out there and be a captain and live in this very male-oriented world of being a boat owner and even a surfer—these were male-dominated scenes that I was pushing myself into. I thought I had to be masculine to succeed and to fit in. When I allowed myself to embrace my style of femininity, I think it really allowed me to succeed and be proud of myself in a new way. It definitely changed the way I sailed, changed the way I surfed, and made my life a lot more enjoyable because I embraced who I really am.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow, I love that. So the subtitle is *Sailing Surfer’s Voyage of Awakening*. It's very apt, but it's not just awakening in one aspect—it's spiritual, relationships, your relationship with the ocean and surfing, your diet and how it's affected your health. It's a very broad and awesome book—there's so much in it. Just as we finish off, let me ask you: if there was one piece of advice from this book that you could give to your younger self, what would that be?
**Liz Clark**
I think it would be to embrace those obstacles as opportunities. Embrace challenges as something to learn from. Embrace difficult people as your chance to practice your virtues. It's kind of the same kernel right there, which would have allowed me to avoid a lot of pain and frustration as a young person, I think. And really to just be myself and love myself and embrace who I am no matter what other people thought. And don't compare myself to others as much.
**Michael Frampton**
Nice. Love that. So, swellvoyage.com—is that the best place for people to find out more about you?
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, they can find out about me there and as well on Instagram at Captain Liz Clark.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. Well Liz, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to chat with *Surf Mastery* and my listeners. I will have links to all of that stuff in the show notes for listeners. And yeah, I encourage everyone to read the book and follow you on Instagram. Do you have any adventures coming up?
**Liz Clark**
What's next? Well, I'm currently undertaking an adventure to spay and neuter all the dogs on the island where I'm living—dogs and cats. My nonprofit is undertaking a big campaign this year to reduce overpopulation and animal suffering here on this island. I've kind of shifted my adventure into community activism, and for the moment I don't have a big sailing venture on the horizon, but I'm really enjoying this really different sort of adventure. Having to work with others and work with the government and the municipality—it has its challenges in a whole new way, so that's great.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Well Liz, thank you so much for taking the time.
**Liz Clark**
Yeah, thank you so much for the invite and the nice questions. Appreciate it.

103 Captain Liz Clark - Adventure Surfer
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**102 Tom Gellie- Why Expert Advice is Often Not Helpful when Learning to Surf (or Ski)** Sep 11, 2024

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Why does your coach keep yelling “bend your knees”—but your surfing still feels stiff and unstable?
In this episode, elite ski coach and biomechanics expert Tom Gellie breaks down the *real* reason most surfers struggle with body movement: they don’t understand their stance, how their body moves, or what athletic posture actually means. Whether you’re a total beginner or a surf coach yourself, this conversation flips the script on technique, progress, and long-term learning.
Discover how body awareness and kinesthetic intelligence matter *more* than strength for better surfing
Learn why athletic stance isn’t just about “bending your knees”—and how to actually cue it correctly
Explore how constraints-based learning and dry land training can supercharge your surf progress
Press play to uncover a smarter, more effective way to improve your surfing—backed by science, movement wisdom, and lived experience from skiing to surfing.

**For more insights and tips from Tom Gellie**: Follow Tom Gellie:
**Website**: Big Picture Skiing
**Instagram**: @bigpictureskiing
**YouTube**: Big Picture Skiing Channel
**Follow Michael Frampton**:
**Instagram**: @surfmastery
**Website**: Surf Mastery
**Key Points**
The concept of finding a single approach or technique that addresses multiple issues, termed as 'hitting all the birds with one stone,' is discussed in relation to coaching and learning.
The challenges of teaching skiing techniques and the difficulties of finding a universal approach to coaching, especially when students have different backgrounds and levels of experience, are highlighted.
The importance of taking a 'big picture' approach to coaching, considering various perspectives and methods, is emphasized.
The athletic stance in skiing and surfing, its importance, and the challenges in teaching it are discussed, highlighting the need for coaches to find different ways to cue students effectively.
The discussion on the effectiveness of short-term versus long-term coaching, emphasizing the importance of managing expectations and the need for a long-term approach to see significant progress.
The value of constraints-based learning in coaching, where coaches create environments that force students to discover the correct techniques on their own rather than being told what to do, is explored.
The role of body awareness and kinesthetic intelligence in learning sports techniques, emphasizing that these are more critical than physical strength for performance, is discussed.
The influence of the gait cycle on understanding body mechanics and its application in sports coaching, particularly in skiing and surfing, is highlighted.
**Outline**
**Podcast Introduction**
Michael Frampton introduces the Surf Mastery Podcast and welcomes Tom Gelley as the guest.
Michael mentions Tom's background as a ski instructor, body worker, and functional movement practitioner.
Michael highlights Tom's online skiing teachings available at Big Picture Skiing and his Instagram presence.
Michael promotes a new Flat Rock wetsuit, describing its comfort, warmth, and fit, and offers a discount code MASTER15 for listeners.
Michael notes the international shipping availability of Flat Rock wetsuits.
**Tom's Podcast Journey**
Tom started podcasting around the same time as Michael, motivated by the desire to share conversations and insights from the ski world.
Tom chose the name 'Big Picture Skiing' to reflect his approach of considering all angles and perspectives in problem-solving.
**Tom's Surfing Journey**
Tom began surfing in January 2021, motivated by the desire to relate to his skiing students and improve his own skiing through a new learning experience.
Tom's previous experience with kite surfing influenced his decision to start surfing.
Tom emphasizes the importance of going through frustration and different approaches to overcome challenges in learning surfing.
**Skiing Background**
Tom started skiing at a young age, taking family trips to the Australian Alps.
After university, Tom moved to Canada to pursue skiing, working in a rental shop and teaching skiing.
Tom's experience in Canada allowed for significant progress in skiing due to the quality of snow and less busy instructor environment.
**Athletic Stance in Skiing and Surfing**
Tom discusses the importance of the athletic stance in both skiing and surfing, emphasizing the need for a balanced and flexible position.
Tom shares personal experiences and coaching insights on how to teach and improve the athletic stance.
Tom highlights the similarities and differences in the athletic stance between skiing and surfing.
**Coaching Philosophy and Approach**
Tom advocates for a long-term coaching approach, emphasizing the importance of managing expectations and being open to different outcomes.
Tom shares an example of helping a client improve their skiing technique by challenging preconceived notions and encouraging experimentation.
Tom discusses the value of constraints-based learning, where coaches create environments that force learners to discover solutions themselves.
**Surf Culture and Community**
Tom and Michael discuss the unique aspects of surf culture, including the limited resource nature of waves and the varying levels of friendliness among surfers.
They note the contrast between the supportive environment at wave pools and the sometimes competitive atmosphere at natural surf breaks.
Tom expresses a desire for more friendly interactions among surfers, similar to the camaraderie often found in skiing communities.
**Technicality in Coaching**
Michael and Tom debate the level of technicality in surf coaching compared to other sports like skiing.
Tom shares insights from his interview with Sasha Rierich, a former US ski team coach, about constraints-based learning and its application in coaching.
Tom emphasizes the importance of allowing learners to discover solutions through guided experiences rather than direct instruction.
**Body Awareness and Kinesthetic Intelligence**
Tom discusses the concept of kinesthetic intelligence (KQ) and its importance in sports performance.
He highlights the role of body awareness in improving technique and performance, often trumping raw strength.
Tom recommends activities like surf skating and dry land training to enhance body awareness and technique.
**Gait and Movement Patterns**
Tom introduces the concept of the gait cycle and its importance in understanding body movement and function.
He references Gary Ward's book 'What the Foot?' as a valuable resource for learning about the foot, gait, and their connection to overall body health.
Tom emphasizes the interconnectedness of body parts and the importance of identifying patterns in movement to address issues effectively.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Self Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Today's guest is Tom Gellie. Tom has a really interesting introduction to his newfound passion for surfing as an adult learner. Because Tom isn't a ski instructor, a very experienced and sought-after ski instructor at that, as well as a body worker, a functional movement and biomechanical practitioner. He's also been podcasting for a long time, so he's very well spoken. And I really, really enjoyed this conversation with Tom. We could have gone on and on and spoken for a lot longer, so I know everyone here will enjoy this one. You can check out a bit more of Tom at bigpictureskiing.com, because Tom also teaches a lot of his skiing stuff online and, of course, Instagram of the same name. There'll be links to everything Tom in the show notes to this episode. And of course, you can check out my website, surfmastery.com. But just before I fade in that interview, I wanted to talk about a new wetsuit I got recently from—I'll hold it up here if you're watching on YouTube. This is a Flatrock wetsuit. You may have seen people wearing these. Quite new in the wetsuit game, and gosh, it is hands down the most comfortable wetsuit I have ever worn.
**Michael Frampton**
It's made from Japanese limestone neoprene, and it feels like a cross between silk and butter, and it fits so good. So stoked with this new wetsuit. And it's just slightly more expensive than a Need Essentials wetsuit, so it's not an expensive wetsuit. But gosh, it's a lot warmer and better fitting and more comfortable than a Need Essentials wetsuit. I'll give it that for sure. And I actually wore—this is the 2/3 version I've got. I've had it for a little bit, and then I went to go surfing the other day in the middle of winter here in New Zealand, and my 4/3 O'Neill, which is about twice the price, had a hole in it in the crotch, so I couldn't wear that. So I grabbed this thinking, oh, I'll just go for a quick surf. It doesn't matter if I get cold. And I was really surprised with how warm this 2/3 wetsuit was. The wind did not cut through it like it would my Need Essentials 2/3. So yeah, anyway, awesome wetsuit and the guys at Flatrock have been kind enough to give my listeners a discount on a wetsuit.
**Michael Frampton**
So if you go to flatrock.com.au and we've got a coupon code at checkout, which is MASTER15—so that's MASTER15—sorry, that's flatrockwetsuits.com.au, new flatrockwetsuits.com.au. I will have a link to that website in the show notes though, and as well as I'll write down that coupon code for a 15% discount, which is MASTER15. So yeah, it's also another way to support this show. Next time you buy a wetsuit, give it a crack. Great wetsuits. The fitting—I got a medium. I'm a medium in O'Neill, and I am in a medium with my Need Essentials as well. And sizing-wise, great wetsuits. They also ship internationally as well, so it doesn't matter whether you're in California or Australia or New Zealand or wherever you're listening from. They ship internationally, and mine turned up pretty quick and it's a great wetsuit. So yeah, go and check out Flatrock Wetsuits. Ecomcrew discount code MASTER15 for that. And then, without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Tom Gellie of Big Picture Skiing. You started your skiing podcast back in 2015, and that's when I started this podcast.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, right. Okay. Well, same, same sort of time. Yeah. What was the incentive behind you doing it? What was the main reason?
**Michael Frampton**
So I mean, I started surfing, you know, I was a white trash dairy farmer. And then when I left school, I discovered surfing, and the beaches that me and my friend would surf at, there was no one else surfing around. It was all self-taught, just on whatever board the local salesman decided to sell us. Didn't stop us though. We were so passionate about it. And, you know, obviously we picked up a little bit from magazines and that. And then, you know, fast forward 15 years and I ended up living in Palm Beach and scored a job with Matt Grainger at the High Performance Center. And just around the corner from you, right? And you said you're in the Ravine? Yeah. And that was my first real introduction into, you know, the surf coaching world. And then obviously being surrounded by really good waves and really good surfers and people that, you know, I get listed their surfing performance quite high up. And it wasn't just what I was learning, you know, as through the journey of becoming a surf coach and getting surf coaching myself. It was the conversations I was having with everyone around. So I kind of thought, oh, podcasting was new back then. I was like, oh, I should share these conversations.
**Tom Gellie**
That's right. Not everyone gets the chance. Like I haven't had that sort of chance like you have to be around people like Matt Grainger on probably a daily basis, and then his friends who surf at a really high level. And then all those things could be in a car, could be sitting, you know, because there's no surf, you're just sitting there talking. Those are gold. And that's what I realized. Same in the ski world happens. And it's really neat, in this day and age, how we can share that stuff.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. So Big Picture Skiing—why did you choose that name?
**Tom Gellie**
I chose that name because I wanted something that sort of represented that I—when I think about something, I really try and look at it from all angles. And definitely at that point when I sort of started it, which was actually just when COVID hit. So my job as a sort of functional body worker type person, I had a pretty successful practice. People coming in, couldn't put hands on people anymore. And I was going through this period of really just realizing, like the way I saw things, you know? Like I was like, oh, I know how to fix people with knee pain, you know? Because I'd figured out this one method modality and it had worked, worked, worked. But then it would come to a point where it would stop working, and I'd have to, like, find new ways. And so I just had so many experiences where I realized there's just so many different ways of looking at the same thing. And the more you can do that, the better you are at dealing with people when they come to you with their particular problem. Like the old "don’t use a hammer for everything" saying. So yeah, I was trying to look for a name that encompassed that. Like, I want to teach you and view the way you approach skiing from the big picture—right out here—so I can see it from all angles.
**Michael Frampton**
So when did surfing come into the picture?
**Tom Gellie**
Not long after that, because we moved from the inner part of Sydney to the Northern Beaches to North Narrabeen in January 2021. And I'd spent a lot of time, you know, being an Aussie, we spent a lot of time in summer holidays at the beach and body surfing, boogie boarding, that sort of stuff. So I was familiar with waves, but now being near the ocean, it's like, this—I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to take up surfing. Because actually, I was into kite surfing. And so we were sort of closer to Botany Bay in Sydney, so kite surfing was an easier thing to do. And I loved it and I thought I'd keep doing that. But then, yeah, North Narrabeen, which is a classic break, was just—get in the car for three minutes and I'm there. So I decided to take it on. And also, and I should say, a really important piece—I knew because skiing was growing and I just really wanted to find something that I could relate to my students in a learning sense. Because my—as you probably know—the better you get, you're kind of just, well, there's no point in remembering. If what you're trying to do is just get good at something, once you get good at something, you shouldn't think about it. You should just do it. Thinking can ruin things. But I need to go backwards in my skiing to help people. And like, what am I actually doing here? Surfing really helped me be on the same page in terms of how it takes a lot of time. It takes going through frustration periods. It takes looking for different angles at approaching the same problem you're trying to overcome. So that was a big motivating factor. But then of course got the feeling for it, and I just do it because I love it as well.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, that's interesting. I bet you've got some interesting perspectives on your surfing journey. But before we get to that, obviously skiing has been in your world a lot longer. When did you start skiing?
**Tom Gellie**
We would take family trips, sort of for a week every year since I was, you know, one year old. I was in my dad's backpack ski touring around the Australian Alps, if you can call them that. And so we would do that every year. But something inside of me always wanted to go to Canada. I can't explain—it wasn't like a book. I didn't read a book or whatever. But after finishing university in Albury, I was like, I'm going to Canada. I'm not getting another job. I'm going to see what it's like over there and get in some really good quality snow. So I went to British Columbia, had no job because the way uni lined up I had to stick around. So all the jobs had been taken. So I just got a flight, got on the internet, found a job in a rental shop at Silver Star. That's when the skiing really took off, because then I started doing seasons. So that was 2006, and I did back-to-back winters—so Canada, Australia, Canada or North America somewhere and Australia. And that was cool because your progress just goes through the roof when you are teaching it, but also on snow every day. And Canada is great because it's not super busy as an instructor, so I had so much time to just go and ski for myself and learn from others and get better.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, so do you think that that journey, like being passionate about skiing and being involved on the coaching side and the technical side as well as just loving it—how did that help you as a surfer?
**Tom Gellie**
Massively. Do you know what? I think one of the biggest things I've learned in coaching is—back to the Big Picture sort of name thing again—is a lot of people, like when they watch something like you performing a cutback, they put words to it and describe what it is from their perspective. Okay, so they're looking at you doing something. So then when they describe it, they describe it from how they're viewing it. But then the experience of that is not at all the way it's kind of described often by the coach or the person. So, you know, look at where the arm is. Look at how they drive and compress here and extend here. They can often be—like, sometimes that can work for people, but often that's just through a process of just a lot of time and repetition. And you get these little gold pieces somewhere where you feel something. So I just realized that when someone says to me, "This is what you need to do," I'll take that, but I'll park it. Kind of, you know, if there's a sphere around me of ideas—in part of the sphere—and then keep searching off the side of that to what else could he be trying to—or she, if she's coaching me—get me to do. And could I think of it differently? And in my experience of it, would that be different? And maybe I can give an example from the ski world in terms of stance.
**Tom Gellie**
So athletic stance in skiing—so important. Just as in surfing. Like, you get in a really good athletic position and it can make things much better and work a whole lot better. So you classically teach people about this position, like the flex in the ankles, the knee, the angle of the upper body, where the hands are. And while that's one way of teaching it, you can also cue it up in different ways. Like, you know, when you lean out, like when you start adding turn forces—you're leaning over, like in a surf turn or a ski turn—leaning right over. There's forces added on you. Some of those things force you into the athletic position naturally, as opposed to you faking this stance that everyone, you know, gets you to stand on a Bosu ball or something and stand here. And so yeah, I'm always looking for the simplest, most potent thing that kills so many birds with one stone. If they're seeing that my stance is not right, but also this is wrong and this is wrong—can I find the one kind of concept or thing that gets all those birds? And so searching for those types of things is what I've been doing with my surfing.
**Tom Gellie**
And I think it's going pretty well. I mean, it's hard to improve later in life, but I think I was telling you, I went to the wave pool for the first time yesterday in Sydney and finally got to, you know, like 21 waves in the hour period, which just never happens in real life. And it was so cool to be able to just practice the same thing over and over again and then see the video, which is even more cool for me, because I was like, I'm going to buy all the videos. Go home. And I'd had my coach from surfing video me over the last few years as well, and I can see the change. And then now I'm looking at, you know, for when I do something kind of more in the direction that I want to go—okay, cool. What did that turn, what did that wave feel like? Go through a process of going deeper on it.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. The athletic stance for skiing—is it the same as, obviously, you know, the way you hold your—
**Tom Gellie**
Skis and standing.
**Michael Frampton**
—side into a—
**Tom Gellie**
Boot, etc.
**Michael Frampton**
—is different. But maybe from the knees up, is there a lot of similarities in that athletic stance?
**Tom Gellie**
Absolutely. Yeah. Like, I don't know, so much of the time, like early on in looking at my surfing, I'd get really annoyed because I knew all this stuff about athletic stance and what should be there. And for instance, instead of compressing down through the whole stance, I'll do the cheat's way, which would be I would just drop my head lower, round my back. And so the knees and hips aren't—like the hip joint is not really going lower, the hips themselves aren't going lower—but I feel like I'm getting lower. You know, coach is like, compress. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, compress, compress, all this stuff. And I got so annoyed at that for so long when they would say that. Like, I had a guy coach me who was a really upper-level coach, and we'd look at the video, and I was obviously not doing things right. I was basically just going across the wave, barely using the top or the bottom at all. And he pointed out, he's like, well, you know, right there there's a section where you could have just made a really good, like, turn back to the pocket and then out. And I'm like, I don't even know how to. How do you even do that? So I just got frustrated, like, his things and like, you got to compress here and all these new words and vocabulary coming in that I just had no way to relate it to what I already knew. But then luckily found this guy.
**Tom Gellie**
Tony was more at my level of coaching, not just used to coaching people who had already gone through a lot of experience. And he likes the snow, and he was always trying to relate it back to skiing. So I had something that was tangible, a felt sense. Okay, it's not exactly like that, but it's very similar to this, Tom. Yeah. And then also on the positive would just point out when I was getting things right. Because it's so easy to point out, like, you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong. But if you can show a student—I’ve definitely learned this from skiing—like if you give them a task, like say it is the athletic stance: this time when you get lower, just see if you can do it. Feel your knees actually flex. Feel your hips get lower instead of just your head getting lower. And they just do it like 3%. You just grab onto that and you go, see? You did it. And all they're doing out of everything is focusing on that. And they can then go out and do it again and do it for five, six, seven percent better. It's a lot.
**Michael Frampton**
There. I would describe the athletic stance as a position where you feel balanced and able to move in any direction without moving in the opposite direction first. How would you—
**Tom Gellie**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Is that yours?
**Tom Gellie**
I like that description. Yeah. I really like that. But I would say—this is interesting—I like the big picture thing. Like, that is just a really good description. And we always want to, like, be able to boil it down so maybe we can put it somewhere. The athletic stance description in two sentences is this. Whereas I think if you can just—like, that is definitely a really good description of it—but then it can be some other things. And if you could come up with ten different ways to describe it, then you're going to resonate with more people. Do you know what I mean? Like if the language you use, like in your mind, that makes perfect sense and everything, you know what you're talking about without having to make a different—like go backwards first before moving. Like those things—there's a whole lot kind of behind that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It's a technical way of—it's a coach's—that’s how you would describe it to a coach maybe. Yeah.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I've just realized that. Because when you get something right—or say you're coaching me, Michael, over a couple of weeks, four sessions—we just worked on my stance and it started getting better. By the end of that, those sessions, discussions, chats over message, that whole time we combine it down to maybe me saying the same thing. And you just have to say to me in week three, Tom, let's just work on that athletic stance. Remember, before you were moving back to go forward again? And I would be able to take that whole amount of time and words and knowledge, compress it like a potent potion—it's a distillation of a lot more stuff—then it's potent. But I think you can only get those after going through, you know, hearing it, thinking it over, dreaming about it, sleeping. And I think coaches sometimes forget that. Because you might then go, boom. Had this month with Tom. Look where he was. Look where he is now. So much better. And he understands this. And then I'm just going to say that to James next week—got him for a month—and expect the same result just by saying that, you know? That's where I think we can get caught up. Does that make sense?
**Michael Frampton**
Totally. And it certainly highlights a point that if you're a client looking for a coach and working with a coach, it's not a—it's not going to—three hours is not going to change anything. It's going to take ten hours before you even know what you're going to change.
**Tom Gellie**
Yep. There can be those moments. I think, you know, as a coach, you’ve probably had it where you get that client who's ready. Maybe they've had a whole bunch of history beforehand, and they just needed to hear the right thing from you at that moment. That, of course, happens. And then they probably think you're amazing. But it's also the lead-up and possibly all those other things, and you've just spun it in the right way. So there's that. But I absolutely agree with the long-term approach. And part of my philosophy with coaching is making sure people have in their minds, like, an expectation. Do you remember the movie *Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels*? In that one Guy Ritchie film, I'm pretty sure it's in that one, there's this quote where the guy goes—he's like, "Expectations, they're the mother of all f-ups." So people coming in, like, expecting within this certain amount of time they're going to do this—not good. If you just get your expectations lower and long-term and just see what happens, be open-minded to the result being this, this, A, B, C—not sure—but I'm just going to go through the experience. I find that's a much better way of doing it.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, I prefer coaching people over a season so we can then get the vocabulary, get through some stumbling blocks. There's always prior knowledge that gets in the way. Like, that's a huge, huge barrier. I find that if you can discover those—like a preconceived idea that, say, maybe they heard someone with a lot of status or even maybe their favorite pro surfer on a video said, you know, like, "You got to do this—bear down with your toes with the bottom turn" and really whatever. And so they've always done that. And anything that is not saying that, they kind of throw out the window. Those situations can really get people stuck and not make them progress. So yeah, I'm always looking out. I'll give an example of one from the ski world, because that's where obviously I've got experience. I was working with this client from Park City, Utah, and he's been skiing all his life. Really good skier, does ski racing, has had coaches from the U.S. team coach him. He's, you know, he's connected, so he can get anyone—anyone he really needs—to help him with his skiing. And anyway, we do some online coaching work where he's sending me videos, I'm sending him feedback back. And partway through I go, why are you not dragging your inside pole? Looks like you're deliberately trying to keep your inside ski pole from touching the snow at all points.
**Tom Gellie**
And he said, well, I was told by this high-level coach that I should never do that. That's bad technique. And I said, next time you go out, just let it drag. And the reason is you're going to get feeling from it. You're not going to lean on it, but you're going to get feeling through that pole to where your body is leaned over in a turn. Just like how we like to touch the water when you lean over with the cup—it just helps when you're looking straight ahead to have a feeling of where you are in space. Straight away, next day he tries this pole drag. Wow, so much better. I feel more relaxed in the turn. I feel like I can go further, lean it over further, more comfortable. Fixed a whole bunch of things. It's like, I can't believe I'd been doing for years, you know, trying to avoid that because someone told me it was the wrong thing to do.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, that person maybe had a bad experience. His pole got caught, and maybe he had a high level of body awareness, and he didn't need that pole to be there. And it worked for him. Just like the surf—just like the surf you mentioned. Oh, when I do a bottom turn, it feels like my toes are digging in. Well, might not feel like that for everyone.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It might just be whatever it is. You've got to be able to like—and I think the joy of sport and doing things is when you get those feelings. Because funnily enough, the other day, it wasn't in the wave pool, it was at North Narrabeen. I had a bottom turn where I felt my toes, like, really dig into the board. And I'd never felt that before. Like, I'd pushed through the balls of my feet, but never to the point of pushing over and the toes in. And the board behaved differently. And however many turns and waves I've caught—never felt that. And for some reason, that happened then. But I remembered this YouTube video of this guy—and my coach sending me, "Watch this, it's a really good one on the bottom turn." It's a classic old one. And anyway, so now that has clicked really, really well. So it's just kind of funny timing that. But I love finding those epiphany kind of feeling moments. Once you get it, then you can repeat it. You just got to get yourself in the situation or give your student the environment to feel it. And then they're off to the races.
**Michael Frampton**
Back to your initial—I'm going to guess, because of your history with skiing and biomechanics and technique, I'm going to guess that you approached surfing with a pretty reasonable athletic stance right from the get-go. So that part of your surfing—
**Tom Gellie**
So yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So that part of your surfing, um, you were sort of ahead of the game in a way. So which aspect, as a beginner surfer—like new to it—maybe you just think back to your first year, what were some of the biggest roadblocks and the biggest plateaus and learning curves?
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, I mean, I think having the wave pool—if that was back in the beginning—that would have helped. Because I think the biggest difference between learning to surf and skiing is that skiing, you can just go up a lift, down the same run, and do it over and over and over again. You can even stop and just do part of a turn—like just do the top half and then stop, or the bottom half and then stop, or do all those things, be able to break it down. I was always trying to find—I was just like, I just wish I could do that in surfing. Like, I just want to just do a bottom turn and then stop and not be brought on with all the other things going on, and just do it again and do it again, and then do it to the right and then to the left. That was the most frustrating thing for me, because I knew how important—and when I teach skiing, I break that down for people and I force them into just doing it, doing it to find that feeling. And then they can go link turns and keep searching for it and spend more time doing it. So it was the amount of repetitions that was very frustrating. The surf we have locally here is kind of challenging. Like, you’ve got to make—it’s not like there are really point breaks or anything like that. So you take off, get maybe a chance to do one maneuver. So just being able to do a bottom turn and a cutback or something took so many waves for that to happen.
**Tom Gellie**
Oh yes. Actually, you know what? A big thing—because I'd also done a lot of snowboarding—I would bog the rail so much because I’d put too much weight on my front foot. I was just so used to keeping the weight really even on a snowboard that I would just try and do the same on a surfboard. So that was a problem. But then it's funny that, you know, we talk about this and I'm just starting to get to the point now where I'm figuring out that now I've gone too far to the back foot. Because I know you've spoken to Clayton, and early on I found him and he was really helpful, by the way, in how he talks about, like, people just don't stand on the front foot enough. And now I finally get that. But I needed to go through what a lot of other people went through, which is back foot and realizing how you can really turn the board very sharp off the back foot and all this stuff. I just went straight into it with probably hardly much speed, just trying to rail this thing from snowboarding. So yeah, I made that shift. Now I need to start coming back into that. And because I look at videos of really good surfers and their bottom turn—how much more the front of the board is in the water when it’s on rail versus mine—and I can see I'm losing speed to come back up the wave. Yeah. So that was frustrating. Bogging rail so much.
**Michael Frampton**
That note, like the front foot, it's also so dependent on where your front foot is as well. Tell me about that.
**Tom Gellie**
So, yeah. Here we go. I'm going to get it. I'm going to get some help.
**Michael Frampton**
So every surfboard has like a center point or a balance point or a pivot point, right? Usually the widest point of the surfboard. Now, if your foot is at 45 degrees directly in the center of that pivot point, then your front foot is not good enough. It could be the heel of the front foot, right?
**Tom Gellie**
That's behind. You're still behind.
**Michael Frampton**
So you're still behind the center point. But then, if you really want to drive more of that front of the rail of the board in the water, you're going to have to put a lot more weight on the toe, on the forefoot of the front foot. So that heel-toe—so you might have, you could even have 80, 90% of your weight on the front foot but still have complete control back over the rocker of the board. Does that make sense? But if that foot's two inches forward, you're going to have to go all the way to your back foot, and then all of a sudden you're moving more, and vice versa if that, if that—
**Tom Gellie**
—the fore and aft being controlled completely in the front foot.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Tom Gellie**
And it makes sense.
**Michael Frampton**
And if the stance isn't wide enough, then you're going to put all of your weight on the front and find it frustrating because nothing happens, because your foot actually just needs to be forward an inch more. But that's just something that is obviously avoided with skiing and snowboarding because you're locked into your bike. You set that up. You set your bindings up right before you even get on the board.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah. You can't change that. Your foot is where it is. And you learn to use the front of the foot and the back of the foot, but you can't move that entire foot, as you said. So then I'm just now thinking like, okay, I really want to go out now. Like you've said that, I want to go out now and play with this. Be more mindful of where I place my front foot, other than just intuitively. I've been probably moving it around at different points, but deliberate with it. So what I'd be looking for then is some guidance, say from you on, okay, well like maybe even mark—like would you mark it with a texta?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Okay. Find the wide point of your board or—yeah—and probably the best way to do it is if you surf a wave and you're like, oh man, that board just—something clicked on that wave. Before you pull off, look down at your foot and then put your thumb in front of your toe and just scrape a big mark in the wax and go, bam! That's where my front foot needs to be, because that's the most accurate. Now obviously measuring the board and putting a line through the wax of where that midpoint is, okay, that's a good way to start. Or should it be? Is it right? Because maybe it's not literally the widest part of the board. It depends on, you know, there's the rocker and the contour. Every board is different. So it might not literally be the widest part of the board where the pivot point is, but it's going to be very close to there. So that's a good guideline to start thinking of.
**Tom Gellie**
That's gold, what you said there. Because I could picture taking off, having a good couple of turns, and then actually not being taken out by the lip or something and being able to ride out. Now my cue is going to be: if that felt good, I'm going to look and try and figure out where my foot was. And same goes if I have a bad one. I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to go slow so then I can compare and go, right, okay, what Mike was talking about—I can really see that because my foot was in a totally different position. Love it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
There's so much, like you said, there's so many more variables. And surfing can be, you know—so many more. Yeah. I mean, the mountain obviously changes day to day with the snow and stuff, but nowhere as much as every individual wave and ocean conditions. Every time you pop up, your feet might be in a slightly different place, especially if you're not surfing that much. Yeah.
**Tom Gellie**
And the other thing I must say that I was thinking about—you’d probably ask these questions—skiing versus surfing experience with other people around. And probably where I'm located in the world, North Narrabeen is maybe not a great starting point for feeling like people are your friends at that break. Luckily, I've gotten to know a lot more in the community, but I'm still very much aware of this. But even so, even elsewhere, that was one thing I wish would be different. Because if you go skiing, it just feels a lot friendlier. I could be like, you know, the beginner person—I'm not going to look down at them. If they just talk to me, I go, wow, that was really cool, and what are you doing there? Or another good skier that I've never met before. And in surfing, it just seems people—even on like a really nice morning, there’s two people out, like I’m out there and there's another guy out there—just feels very much like people don't talk to you. And I'm not sure. There's probably a whole bunch of reasons, you know, like, this is my time to get away from the family and work, and I don't want to talk to people. You know, other things like, this is my wave—all that sort of stuff going on. But I find that that really frustrates me, actually. And yeah, it was awesome at the wave pool actually, because I went there with a friend. But then there were, you know, six other strangers I'd never met. And as it gets going, everyone's more supportive and cheering for each other—different levels we're all at. And probably just because everyone—there’s a wave, another wave coming, there’s a respectful line. Even if you're better than me, you're not going to drop in on me because you don't need to. And that part, I just wish there was more of that because, yeah, I'd love to go out in the morning to just the feel of being out in the surf to be more friendly in general. Do you find that?
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, totally. The surf culture is unique in that way. I think it is partly simply because each wave is such a limited resource. So obviously the wave pool takes that out of the equation. But it's also, you know, in the last ten years there's been an influx of surfers. So the old salty dogs that are out there—oh, it should have been like this back in the day—that sort of vibe is out there a lot. For some people, it's, yeah, I don't want to talk to you because I just want to zone into the ocean, and who's this guy? Like, sort of thing and all of those things. But you know, you've heard the advice, oh, it's just hours in the water. If you want to get better at surfing, you've just got to spend time in the water. Part of that—actually, probably the biggest reason why that’s true—is that's because you get recognized. Everyone gets to know who you are, then you—
**Tom Gellie**
Don't drop in on you.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Simple as that, really. They recognize your face. Because you probably find it—every time I go out, there are these three dudes that are always out there and they always get the waves. Well, that's not a coincidence, because they've always been out there for hours every day for 20 years, and that's why they get them. Not only do they read that beach really well, everyone knows who they are, and everyone respects the amount of time they've put in the water. And so that's a big part of it. I think the wave pool is the driving range for surfing. And it's going to change the game, especially for coaches and stuff, because I also—I listened to one of your podcast episodes when someone else was interviewing you. And the one big thing it highlighted for me is that surf coaching is nowhere near as technical as other sports. Like, the technical—you guys were talking about such detailed technicalities that it's like, man, because surfing is such a limited resource, we just don't have the luxury of thinking about our inside edge at the apex of a bottom turn 20 times in a row, like you might do in half a day skiing.
**Tom Gellie**
Yes. Yes, I totally agree. Now, so again, perspective on that. I've taken some really positive things from the surf coaching world into my skiing in terms of keeping things simple and not overcomplicating things. And I'll tell you maybe a story here. I interviewed this guy Sasha Rearick, and Sasha is the former US ski team coach. And he was sort of around where there's this girl, Mikaela Shiffrin, and Ted Ligety—so world champions, really great skiers—and he was a really interesting person to interview. And one of the things in this conversation that I took away was his focus now on constraints-based learning. And so the idea with constraints-based learning is you try and find—and you don't give people the answer. So you don't tell me, Tom, you need to keep your back straighter. You create an environment or a situation where I'm forced into doing that. Through this experience, I'm going to do that because of how you've set it up for me. You've guided me. You've put me in this position to experience it. And so it's far more powerful because I will discover it and do it as a result of something else. It's there because it's necessary and needed. And I've really taken this sort of tack now in my coaching and looked right into this deeper, and really believe it's the way you want to do things. And I think a lot of that is going on in surfing because you can't get too involved. You know, with skiing I can ski with you next to me, Michael—stop, we can have a conversation on the lift. But if you're coaching me, usually you're on the beach and I'm out in the water for 20 minutes, and then you come in so you can kind of get in my ear, and—
**Tom Gellie**
And you very much want to do that as a coach. You want to tell people the answers, like just do it. While there's certain parts of that that's helpful, really, the coach should be there again as the guide to go, what do I need to change in this experience or the cue to just make them feel it? And that's what I should do. Don't give them the answer. Just like, you know, I've got a six-year-old son. Same thing. You know, he's probably ready to tie his shoes, and I just—like, I got to let him do it. You know, show him, let him figure it out. And same with maths. Like, I got homework, I just want to go get dinner done and go to bed. I'll just help you and give you, you know, more of the answers instead of letting the person struggle. It's just how we learn. We need to go through that. And so, positives in the surf world—I’ve taken a lot of, like, seeing that in action. Like they don't get into such detail, yet these people are still achieving mastery and amazing stuff and great performance. Yeah. So that's a cool takeaway I've had. Whereas you're probably seeing it from the other end because you're seeing a lot of generalizations and then you're seeing, wow, they're talking about angles of 0.5 degrees, like inside the boot and how that makes a difference.
**Michael Frampton**
And yeah, it's a good perspective. So I'm just trying to think of an example. Like, let's say someone's surfing with just pin straight legs. So instead of telling them to compress a little bit, you might say, pretend to surf in a room that's slightly shorter than you are, or something like that. Is it an example?
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, that would be an example. I would—because I want them to feel it, not just have a mental image.
**Michael Frampton**
The presence is such a common—which we sort of touched on before—where people just dip their head forward and feel like they're actually compressed. How would you constraints-based—
**Tom Gellie**
How would you put it? Yeah. How would you put a constraint on that? So the first thing—I mean, you've got different things you can change. So you can always try and look for the environment. So obviously tricky with surfing, waves again, because it's different every day and the tides and all that sort of stuff. But if you can change where they are surfing—so maybe the poo stance is because the wave is too steep or something like that and they can't relax, or the board they're on is forcing it. So the equipment factors—if you can find those things that then let them discover it more themselves, that would be great. The other thing that I'm thinking of—because the obvious would be just stand up straight as a board—you know, the other thing would be, take what you're doing wrong and make it even more wrong. Because these people don't realize it's a wrong thing. They're in their poo stance surfing, and they're doing that because it feels comfortable. Right? They feel safe. They feel good.
**Tom Gellie**
So then tell them to do even more of a poo stance, and they'll feel something hopefully different and go, oh, it's that. It's more in that direction, like pushing my hips, whatever it is. I thought I was getting lower, but it's back to again, me and my head being low instead of my hips getting lower and my back staying straighter. That was a really cool thing that I've had a lot of success with—is take the thing that's wrong, don't try and fix it, make it even more wrong. Have you ever done that with someone? Because most of the time we wouldn't be like, hey, you've got this poo stance, don't do it. Whereas if you say, I want you to do it even more—I want you to have the most ridiculous poo stance—and then they'll probably come up and go, wow, yeah, that felt odd and weird. Then they can go, you've got an end of the spectrum now. And it's like, now just go—you can't go any more that way, any more wrong—go the other direction. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
No.
**Tom Gellie**
And that's a concept in constraints-based learning. It's one of the ones they've shown is really—yeah, it's really useful.
**Michael Frampton**
Like when you let your kid eat as much chocolate cake as they want and then they make themselves sick.
**Tom Gellie**
Exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
And then they realize, oh, it's actually not good. It's not good for me. I'm only going to have one piece next time.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, that is a concept. I think finding the end ranges, the spectrum of something—and it doesn't have to be movement, it could be anything, like you said: food, feeling hungry versus totally full—until you know where those ends are and you really—like, that's where you learn a lesson, is the end ranges. So back to when I was doing a lot—like, my main job was working with people with pain problems, chronic pain. They'd been to see everyone else in Sydney, no one had an answer for them. A lot of the time things were—they got stuck in one part of this spectrum of movement, so their back could only move one way, or their knee could only move one way because of an old injury that caused them to stay there or something. That was scary, and it was just about getting them—sometimes they couldn't go the opposite direction. So if you go further into the wrong one, almost like pulling a tight rubber band even more, it pulls and then snaps them back out into the direction they actually need to go into.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that makes sense. I like that.
**Tom Gellie**
Gives you more options as a coach, right? Because if you're like, this is not working—stand up straight, back straighter, more weight on the front foot, that sort of stuff—it's not working. Do the opposite. Do the opposite. I told this story the other day—I did a webinar for all the Thredbo ski instructors to kick off the season—and I told them about this moment. So back in 2014, I just made the Australian demonstration team. And that's like the top instructors in Australia, and every country around the world has this kind of selected group to represent the country and show what our technique is about. So here I am, and I'm in Canada, and I think I'm pretty hot stuff because I’ve made this team and I know everything there is to know about skiing. And, you know, people must be looking at me on the lift as I ski down. And, you know, this one particular morning I was doing this run where the chairlift runs over the top of it so people can, like, watch you. And I was like, yeah, sweet, I'm crushing this. And I stop and I turn around and I look up the slope, and there's this guy coming down who is just way better than me.
**Tom Gellie**
He's quicker, he's more refined, he's definitely got way more skills than me. And I go, whoa! I need to find out who this guy is. So he comes down and I go over to him and I say, hey, that was really impressive skiing. Like, who are you? What are you doing here? And he goes, uh, hello, my name is Fritz. And Fritz is this Austrian ski instructor. I go, I'd love to have some time to ski with you. If we can make that happen, I'd be really grateful. He's like, yeah, sure. I have to work now, but let's catch up, you know, a couple of days’ time and go for a ski. So a couple of days later, we go skiing and we have a fantastic time. And I'm just in awe of this guy because we're skiing these really challenging runs and he's on like GS skis, which are longer, thinner skis, stiff race skis. It’d be the equivalent of, like, a surfer just being able to surf really mushy waves on a high-performance board that shouldn't be able to generate speed and do all this stuff—we'd all be sinking and not able to do anything. So he's doing these impressive turns, but particularly the short turn—really fast. I was never as good at my short turns and I wanted to get better at them.
**Tom Gellie**
And so at the end of this time with him, I say, Fritz, how did you get so good at your short turns? And he sort of mentions this guy in the ski world—this guy Richie Berger—who's like a kind of legend, one of the best ski instructors, skiers you'll ever see. Versatile, everywhere. He’s like, I did some training with him. Okay, cool. Anything you did in particular that really helped your short turns? He says, oh—and I said, and what about for me? Like, particularly anything you see with me? He goes, Tom, you need to rotate your upper body. And in the ski world, doing that—what I learned—was not to do it. Like, that’s a wrong thing. You should not do that. So suddenly I'm there confronted with some advice that is completely against everything that I've believed in and has got me to where I'm at. My association would say this is a wrong thing to do. Don’t do it. And he said, I’ve got to go now, Tom. I'll catch you later. So I'm left there in the middle of this run going, well, jeez. Okay, here's some advice. Totally seems wrong. I've got two options.
**Tom Gellie**
I can try it, or I can just keep doing what I'm doing. So luckily, I try it for a few runs, and it feels different. Feeling some new things I've not felt before, but I wasn't sure if it was the right thing because I couldn't see myself and I'm like, oh, this is going to look wrong. And when I get back to Australia, they're going to say, you can't ski like that. That's not our technique. So I'm conflicted in my mind about this. So I go get my wife and I say, Jenny, can you just video me? I need to see if this is really kooky and weird or if it's good. So she says, fine, whatever—she's always sick of videoing me. So I ski down, video doing these short turns, rotating, doing the wrong thing. And then I say, give me the camera, give me the camera. I go look at it, and I play it back, and it does not look like I'm rotating. It doesn't look like I'm doing an error. You know, it'd be like the stance thing. Imagine saying like, you know, Tom, you need to do even more poo stance in your surf stance. Like what? That’s the wrong thing though. And so as I'm doing this rotation thing, and it's looking better, and nothing’s looking wrong, and so confirms that what Fritz tells me is something I need to go work on.
**Tom Gellie**
So then I spent the rest of that season implementing that, playing with it, and it changed my world completely. Because this thing that everyone says is wrong was suddenly right. And I understood more about context. And sometimes just the timing of something can make something good or bad. There was that in there. And it was like, my skill level at the time needed this opposing idea. But it was transformative to realize and be way more open-minded to these things that you perceive are wrong. And yeah, so I'm kind of interested—I wonder what would happen if I went out even tomorrow and did more poo stance in my—yeah, I know, it's like, I wonder what would happen if you do it. Because it's very hard when you're good at something to also make an error—to like pretend to surf like the person is—because there's always a reason they're doing it. Back again, like they're doing that because they feel safe. How can you put them in an environment, a situation, that gets them to feel something new and discover it on their own?
**Michael Frampton**
I think that—that’s—I’m wondering what it's like for skiing, but when it comes to changing someone's stance in surfing, it's quite important to make that stance stronger and more self-aware outside of surfing. So on dry land training, for example.
**Tom Gellie**
Totally. Totally. Like the surf skating, that’s definitely helped me. I went to a pump track once after seeing one of Clayton's videos and him demonstrate. That was really helpful too, when instead of just talking about it, he took someone who wasn't front foot enough on his simulated wave thing for the surf skate, and he fixed him. And I went, okay, cool, I don't have that ball, but I can go to a pump track. Went to a pump track, tried it on the surf skate, got a new feeling to simulate a dry land—oh, that's where I need to be. Back to the front foot kind of position and still flexed in my joints but more upright in my upper body. Not hunched over. Yeah. Those simulation things—they're unreal, aren't they?
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, yeah. And even before you get into skating, like if you're trying to coach someone to be more on the front foot with a better stance, their body just might not have much self-awareness or strength in that position. Full stop. So no amount of coaching is going to allow them to get there unless they can stand in front of a mirror and do it first. Yeah, yeah. Like with skiing, you find that as well.
**Tom Gellie**
Oh, massively. And I'll take this from this guy, Thomas Meyers. He's sort of big in the bodywork world, talks about fascia—like connectivity of the whole body—and he talks about, yeah, Anatomy Trains. Yeah, yeah. He talks about KQ. So we've got IQ—intelligence sort of rating—and KQ is like kinesthetic intelligence, so your body intelligence. So many people, like the people who pick up sports fast—like your friend, and he's like, "Try surfing" and just picks it up straight away—he's probably got a very high level of KQ. Whereas, you know, the one who doesn't, grew up playing video games, didn't move a lot just for whatever reason—you can build that. You can improve your kinesthetic intelligence, which is what you're talking about—going and doing exercises, going to the gym, doing movements in front of a camera, in front of a mirror to realize, like, I'm doing this but it's not what I want it to look like. Oh, I need to feel this muscle stretch instead of that one. That's huge. And that's a big part of, actually, Big Picture Skiing. I have a lot of videos on movement, and I actually think that body awareness trumps strength. Massively. Massively.
**Tom Gellie**
Like take kids, for example. There are kids who can—seven, eight years old—make turns better than a lot of adults, and they're not very strong. They haven't gone to the gym, done nothing like that. But they've spent a bunch of time feeling into their body. And when you're younger, if you're moving a lot, you tend to have a high level of kinesthetic intelligence. And so I think a lot of people go down the wrong road of building strength instead of building body awareness first. Yeah. So I have such a good example of that—like some of the best surfers I've seen look like skinny, you know, scarecrow people. So, you know, there's not much, but then they can pull these amazing turns through just positioning their body in the right way and timing things at the right time. So that part—absolutely. The way I see it is this: body awareness—people need to work on it, and it's very easy to do. You've just got to start doing it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. Any major advancements I've made is in body awareness, and strength and body awareness are so interwoven anyway. Like, some people—totally, yes—some people would argue that there isn’t a difference. Especially when you look at someone who's like—what's that guy? Have you seen the guy Anatoly, doing all the gym—like he goes into a gym and he just out-deadlifts everyone and he's dressed as a janitor. You know, he's just—
**Tom Gellie**
I'm not seeing that, but I can imagine what that would—yeah. Surprising everybody.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Yeah. Just has great bodyweight-to-strength ratio. Because big can mean strong, but you don’t have to be big to be strong. Bodybuilders are big because they're training to be big, not training to be strong. You look at a gymnast—they’re very muscular, but they’re not big. They just have great posture, they have great body awareness, and that’s why they’re strong—not because they’re huge.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I mean. Like, if you get the body awareness right and then you start using your body—you’re just surfing more—and you can then tip the board over more and you can do these different maneuvers which require you to flex and bend, but with good awareness. Then, like, as soon as the joints bend and move, you're stimulating muscles. They’re going to have to grow stronger to deal with the situations you’re putting them in. Same with gymnastics. A lot of that—you know, hanging off bars, flipping, jumping off things—that requires—they don’t need external weights with things. Whereas I just see it like when people just generally do squats, that like—and then, you know, if they don’t have stuff set right in terms of body awareness, using the joints really well, then they can fix problems by being stronger, using strength to get out of certain situations instead of finesse and awareness. That’s probably why I'm saying that trumps it. And then all you just need to do is go find an activity which forces you to do more and more and more of it. Well, then you can add weights on top of it. Go for it. But, you know, get the foundation right—like a good house. Don’t fix a falling-down house by slamming more hard bits of wood all around it and drilling more screws in and everything. Fix it all, make it neat and working, and then you can be more efficient in the structure.
**Michael Frampton**
It seems like good technique—closely related to just good gait.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah, absolutely. That was—yeah, yeah, I’ve learned a ton from gait, actually. There's this guy—and people should look up this book—it’s called *What the Foot?* One of the best books about—if you want to learn about your own body and the gait cycle and how that’s connected. It’s written by a guy named Gary Ward. And I read this book after hearing Gary speak on this podcast about the foot and everything, because I was right into the foot and skiing. Wanted to find experts, knew more. So read this book and then found every single video I could find on the internet at the time that this guy had produced or someone had interviewed him and just soaked up every bit of information because he was in the UK, I’m on the Australian side of the world, so I didn’t have access to him. And learned so much stuff and started piecing together—like walking is the most natural thing we do. And what Gary talks about is that—basically, he breaks down—most people break the gait cycle into six different phases. So, you know, heel strike, transition phase, shift phase, propulsion phase, swing.
**Tom Gellie**
Phase five—sorry, got that wrong. And in each of these phases and through all this phase—so when you put your left foot down and the right, and by the time the left foot comes down again—you go through every single possible joint range of motion movement in all planes available in that joint in between the left foot going down and then the left foot coming down again. And so he’s mapped—this is the most incredible thing about it—he’s mapped every single joint in the body from the big toe to the talus, hip, spine, scapula, wrists, everything, the neck, and how at heel strike on the left foot, you know, your chain reaction—ankle, yeah—your ankle should be dorsiflexing and inverting, the big toe should be extending, the knee joint should be internally rotating and extending, the hip joint should be flexing and externally rotating. Like—and so you’re given this map. And through the courses he does, you go through getting this into your brain. And so—I’ve lost a bit of it now—but I used to have this map so I could watch someone come in. They’d come into my studio to get treated for their knees or something.
**Tom Gellie**
I’d watch them and I’d film them and I’d put it together and I’d go, right, left heel strike. The knee is doing not the right thing it should at this moment in terms of his perfect model of gait. So there’s your entrance into fixing that person’s possible—or it’s an entrance point. And maybe it’s like they’ve come with knee pain, but you watch that the neck is shifting or rotating the wrong way when it should be going the other way. And so you stop talking about that knee and you go, what happened to your head? Yeah. Oh, nothing—20 years ago, like fell off a cliff and nearly died, but it's fine now, like I’ve no problems. You know? Yes, you do. Because your head, like, doesn’t get over your left foot when it should. It needs to. And this could be why your knee is stuffed. Because you’re just protecting your head or whatever it is. Anyway, yeah. The gait cycle is amazing like that. That helped me understand how everything’s connected and then look for patterns up and down the chain to try and figure something out.
**Michael Frampton**
Sounds very similar to Gary Gray’s work.
**Tom Gellie**
Yeah. Similar. Similar. That’s funny—both Garys. But I would also say very, very different. Like really, you should get the book *What the Foot?* It’ll—yeah. Let me know. It’s—uh—it’s that. In terms of transformative things and people that have influenced and helped my life, that is one I would—when I’m, you know, at the end of my life thanking people—he’ll be one of them. Mhm. A change in my life.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, I’ll definitely check him out for sure. Yeah. Oh man, it's just coming up to the hour. We could just keep talking. That went fast. I’ve got to go pick up my—I’ve got to go pick my kids up. So—but we should—we could do another one at some point though. And thank you so much for your time.
**Tom Gellie**
Oh, thank you for, yeah, bringing me on. I know I'm not a pro surfer or surf coach, but hopefully some different perspective helped. Just like surfing has helped my skiing, it’s certainly helped my coaching, my skiing as well. Like massively. Looking for different ideas on how to approach the same thing. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, we needed an hour. People know. What’s your website?
**Tom Gellie**
Bigpictureskiing.com. So if you just search Big Picture Skiing, there’s a podcast, there’s a YouTube channel, the Instagram as well—all the same things. Check me out there first. A lot of people go through the social media route to find out who I am. And then if you're really interested, all the deep dive videos on skiing are on the Big Picture Skiing app and website.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. Awesome. Tom, thank you.
**Tom Gellie**
Thank you very much, Michael, for the time.
**Michael Frampton**
All right, dude. Thanks for that. Thank you for tuning in to the Surf Mastery Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate, and review on whatever app you're using—be it Spotify, Apple Podcasts. And of course, we are now on YouTube, so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to surfmastery.com for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me also at surfmastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs: one with the five best tips from this show and one with the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to surfmastery.com. On the homepage, there you’ll see them. Until next time, keep surfing.

Why Expert Advice is Often Not Helpful when Learning to Surf (or Ski) with Tom Gellie
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**101 Matt Grainger - Want to Surf Stronger and Longer? Discover the Fitness Secrets With** Aug 27, 2024

Ever wondered what it takes to paddle back to the boat *after cracking your skull open on a reef*—and then surf again the next day?
In this powerful and raw episode, Matt Grainger recounts the most serious injury of his surfing life and breaks down the mindset, fitness, and breathwork tools that helped him survive, recover, and return to surfing. Whether you’re battling niggling injuries or just want to surf smarter as you age, this episode is packed with life-saving tips and surf longevity gold.
Hear Matt's gnarly reef injury story and the step-by-step actions that kept him from infection or worse
Learn the mobility and strength training practices that keep him charging Indo barrels at 55
Discover overlooked health tips for surfers—from reef cut recovery to sleep and sunlight exposure
Hit play now to learn how to surf longer, recover faster, and avoid the mistakes that can sideline your progress and health.
**For more insights and tips from Matt Grainger:**
**Follow Matt Grainger:** Instagram - mattgraingersurf & Linkedin - Matt Grainge
**Follow Michael John Frampton:** Instagram - @surfmastery & Website: https://surfmastery.com/
**Key Points**
**Reef Collision & Injury**: Matt recounts a terrifying reef impact at low tide—being catapulted headfirst, fracturing his skull, and stitching out coral fragments before the session ended.
**First-Aid & Infection Prevention**: Detailed reef-cut care tips: scrub with a clean toothbrush, use peroxide/iodine/alcohol wipes, rinse with bottled water, apply powder (EVP), and wear protective footwear.
**Helmets & Safety Gear**: After the incident, Matt adopts a soft-shell surf helmet for heavy, shallow-reef breaks to prevent re-opening cuts and concussion.
**Surf Fitness & Mobility**: At 55, Matt surfs daily and credits a gym regimen of mobility drills, strength training (Olympic rings, squats), breath training (4-sec inhale/6-sec exhale), and sprinting for injury reduction and performance.
**Age & Mindset**: Emphasizes the power of positive self-talk around aging, citing Bruce Lee’s “spelling spells” concept, and shares his belief in staying mentally youthful through passion for surfing.
**Mind-Body Connection**: Michael and Matt discuss placebo-style health benefits from circadian alignment (morning sun exposure), grounding (barefoot in sand/ocean), and limiting blue-light before bed.
**Surfing as a Puzzle**: Every wave presents a unique challenge—from takeoff to turn execution—keeping surfing engaging and motivating across conditions.
**Wave-Pool Coaching Masterclass**: Matt describes running Indo clinics at the Sydney wave pool: expert-mode barrel clinics, AI video analysis (FlowState), mobility drills for tube riding, and apnea (breath-hold) training.
**Take-Home Tips**: Consistent cut-care, helmet use in gnarly reef breaks, small “movement snacks” throughout the day, mobility + strength focus, and maintaining a fun, puzzle-solving mindset.
**Outline**
**Podcast Introduction**
Michael Frampton welcomes listeners to Surf Mastery Podcast.
Episode ethos: education + inspiration for better surfing and life.
Guest intro: Matt Grainger—mid-50s, lifelong ripper, surf coach, health & fitness advocate, four-time guest.
Brief mention of show extras: free PDFs (top tips & exercises), personal coaching, YouTube video version.
**Matt’s Reef Collision Story**
Setting: Macca’s wave, two-swell day, paddle contest with friend Sean.
The wipeout: foam-ball pump, wave turns, head-first reef impact at low tide.
Immediate aftermath: heavy bleeding, coral fragments, self-rescue to pontoon.
**First-Aid & Infection Prevention**
Coral extraction with tweezers and toothbrush scrub under peroxide/alcohol.
Two-hour stitching process; breath-training to manage stress.
Infection cautionary tale: fellow surfer Kat’s flesh-eating microbe and staph from minor foot cuts.
Recommended kit: clean spare toothbrush, iodine/alcohol wipes, EVP powder, protective footwear.
**Helmet Adoption & Safety Gear**
Description of soft-shell rugby-style surf helmet (like Tommy Carroll’s).
Protocol: wear in gnarly, shallow-reef conditions; continued use at G-Land.
Benefits: prevents re-opening cuts, reduces concussion risk.
**Surf Fitness & Mobility Regimen**
Daily routine: gym at Surfers’ Gym—mobility drills, Olympic rings pull-ups, split squats.
Breath training: Resident breathing technique (4-sec inhale, 6-sec exhale).
Strength focus: leg-dominant work, rotator-cuff prehab, single-leg balance (eyes closed), pendulum jumps.
Nutrition & recovery: two meals/day, bone broth, black coffee + coconut oil, ice baths + sauna.
**Age, Mindset & Motivation**
Positive self-talk: avoiding “I’m old” narrative; Bruce Lee quote on words as spells.
Harvard placebo study on environment and physiological improvement.
Surfing as the ultimate motivator for healthy choices: diet, sleep, training.
**Mind-Body Connection & Health Hacks**
Morning sun exposure for circadian alignment; limiting blue-light pre-sleep.
Grounding via barefoot time in sand/ocean; negative-ion benefits.
Infrared and light-health emerging trends; balancing time and resources.
**Surfing as a Puzzle**
Every wave’s variables: drop style, speed generation, foot placement.
Board evolution: modern shapes enabling more accessible performance.
Interview with son Mason on board tech improvements driving performance.
**Wave-Pool Coaching Masterclass**
Weekly clinics at Sydney wave pool: 5’3″ Bobby quads, 20+ waves in an hour.
Indo masterclass: video breakdown of tube riding, foot placement drills, mobility patterns.
AI FlowState analysis: personalized feedback on technique.
Apnea training session in heated pool; reef-cut & first-aid workshop by Dr. Shaz.
**Closing & Calls-to-Action**
Michael’s school-pickup notice, thanks to Matt.
Subscribe, rate & review on Spotify/Apple Podcasts; watch on YouTube.
Visit surfmastery.com for blog tips, PDFs, and online coaching.
Sign-off: “Until next time, keep surfing.”
**Transcription**
**Matt Grainger**
I have a nice snap in my head that I took off, made the drop, I was on the foam ball and as I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned the corner. So I just got catapulted on the foam ball, thrown in and out head first. And as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef like instantly. It was only like two foot deep, it was low tide and I just, it was just like bang. And I was like oh, oh no. I got a bit on here. I had like 25 stitches here, five stitches here and I just went, I knew the session was over and I just paddled back. Getting myself back. I almost forgot this anyway, so I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head. I'd cracked, I'd actually like fractured my skull but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. And then pulling bits of coral out with the tweezers and then got toothbrushed for an hour and just was scrubbing it. What, scrubbing it all with peroxide or iodine or something? Yeah, just with light alcohol. Oh yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. And the ethos of this show is education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. And Matt Grainger, today’s guest, not only was a huge part of the inspiration for the birth of this show, but he epitomizes that ethos as well. He is in his mid-50s now and he's still out there surfing a ton and stays fit and healthy for surfing and also teaches others to be better surfers and better people through better surfing mindset, health and fitness, etc. Matt is just a pure inspiration in the surfing world and just an absolute frother and a rips. He rips. He's an incredible surfer and stoked to get him back on the show. And like I said, he first appeared back in episode number one. This will be his fourth appearance. He also appeared in episode 30 and episode 55 as well. And without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation, my fourth conversation on this podcast with Matt Grainger from Manly Surf School.
**Matt Grainger**
So how are you? Great, mate. Yeah. Just did a trip to Indo, which is nice.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. The head looks like it's all healed up. The head's good. Look at that. I'm a good healer.
**Matt Grainger**
I can tell. Good job. Yeah. It's an improvement. Yeah, she gave me a facelift while she did it.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, sweet.
**Matt Grainger**
Is that your worst injury out there? Yeah, definitely. I've never hit my head ever in any reef in Indo or anywhere. I've obviously had bullets in the head. Some good cuts in the eyes, always the right eye. Must be the way I turn my head. Just haven't had time to put the hands up. Funny, you learn the surf way, tell people to put your hands up. Done it successfully a few times, but sometimes it's got through. A lot of fins in the back of the head. But yeah, never hitting the head on the bottom of the reef. I had the reef crack under my head with nailing. As I got smashed, just instant, like, just heard this, and I just heard the reef just snap in my head, just heard this crack. And I was like, oh. Like, you know when you say stuff, oh, that's not good. And then I popped up. I popped up, then another wave hit that, and there was bursts of blood vessel in the top of my head. So there was heaps of blood. So I couldn't see out of my left eye. And I felt that I hit my nose as well. I said to one of the Indo guys, Wayway, who is one of the managers of Macca's Resort, I said, have I still got my left eye and my nose? And he goes, yep. And I said, oh, we're good to go then.
**Michael Frampton**
How did it happen? Was it just a freak random thing, or was it a lapse in concentration, or what?
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, it was a bit of the ego took over. Every day was the best day ever. We had the first swell in June. And this one day, oh, just got bigger and bigger, and it had a lot of south in it. There were two swells. It was like a south swell and a bit of southwest as well. So you could get a chip in. You could chip in from behind on the tower, and you could backdoor where you'd usually take off, so you'd get more barrel time. And I was riding this Magic 6'0 CI Pro 1 that I've had for about a year. Felt unreal under the feet. I'd been riding it all day straight. And then this guy, Sean, came out from South Africa. He rocked up on a boat. Him and I started paddling up the reef and just trading wave after wave and making them. So we’re just making these unbelievable tubes, and no one came up there because, you know, it was pretty gnarly. So if you fell, it was like two foot deep, and it was like an eight foot swell. So when Macca's, probably eight to ten, you probably saw footage of Nathan Florence. I don't know if you saw some of the footage of him in HTs. It was like ten to twelve foot HTs that day, whereas Macca's doesn't get bigger. It just gets thicker. So it's probably six to eight foot, but really thick, like a Chopes kind of wave. You get this drop. You can make this really nice drop and then come in with speed. And just if you made it, you're fine. But if you didn't make it, that's what happened. So after five hours, I actually wasn't even tired. It was after like five hours, I was just getting cocky, and I probably should have gone in. It was more like one more, one more. And Sean and I were trying to outdo each other, and he actually snapped his board on his last wave, and I snapped my head. But I took off, made the drop, was on the foam ball. As I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned a corner, so kind of that southwest angle of the wave. So it turned a massive corner. So I just got catapulted on the foam ball, and I got thrown in out head first. And as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef like instantly. It was only like two foot deep. It was low tide, and I just, it was just like bang. I was like, oh, oh, no. I got a bit on here. And then I went into warrior mode. I went into warrior mode, you know, where I'd said, ask the Wayway if my eyes were okay. I actually got a cut there as well, so I got a cut. I got cuts either side of the nose. Down here on the bottom of the nose as well, on this eye, and obviously here, I had like 25 stitches here, five stitches here, and I just went, oh, I knew the session was over, and I just paddled back. Everyone was like, oh, get a boat. Everyone's screaming, get a boat, get a boat, Matt's hurt. I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. Get myself back on my own, you know. One guy goes, yeah, good on ya. This guy, Hans from America, he goes, good on ya, tough guy. I'm like, nah, I've got this, I've got this. Anyway, so I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head, and then I got the boat back to Macca's and then looked for showers, and she was already stitching up my brother. He had a little cut on his back. And then someone said, oh, Matt's looking for you, he cut his head, and she thought, if he's asking for something, he's in a bad way. So then she saw my head, and she thought I'd actually fractured my skull, but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. Far out. So she pulled that, pulled the bits of coral out. She got some local, which was good, and just put it in the cuts, and then pulling bits of coral out with tweezers and then got a toothbrush for an hour and just was scrubbing it. That was the gnarly part.
**Michael Frampton**
Scrubbing it all with peroxide or iodine or something?
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, just with light alcohol. Just so you don't kill the flesh too much. Not too gnarly, but just getting it all out, and I reckon that saved me for sure. Then obviously it took about two hours to stitch up, which was gnarly. And I was just doing a lot of breath training, like coaching, wrapping it, training, and I saw resident breathing, which was like a four-second inhale, six-second exhale. I was just going into that, and that helped big time. That was like a three-hour ordeal, which felt like a long time, but it wasn't as long as I thought. And then she put a face mask over it, which I couldn't see. And then, yeah, the rest is history. And then I surfed the next day.
**Michael Frampton**
Our kid did not. Yeah, I know.
**Matt Grainger**
He taped it up. I just said, I'll get one wave. I'll get one wave, and I did some tests, like I was jumping on one leg, see if I had concussion. And then, oh, no, not well in the head anyway. And then I wore a helmet, of course. And then I didn't surf for, after that day, I didn't surf for three and a half days. And then after that, I was good to go. I was having four tablets of antibiotics every day, washing it with fresh water. She was breaking up antibiotics and putting it inside the cut as well. Yeah. And she left a little bit of one of the gnarly cuts in it too tight, so bits of coral would still come out if it did. Just a little bit's popping out. Far out. So, yeah, so I'm wearing a helmet from now on when it's gnarly like that. So I went to G-Land after that. We had another swell at Macca's and surfed Greenbush. So I had one of those soft-shell helmets that Tommy Carroll wears. Yeah. By DMC. It's like a rugby helmet. Yeah, yeah. But they're nice and light. Yeah, so I wore that. That felt good. And then I wore it in G-Land. Every surf, even, because I didn't want to get hit and break the cuts open anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the stitches out after six days. Really, it healed well. Yeah. Dope. Wow. But from now on, if it's gnarly and low tide and heavy, I'll be wearing a helmet.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, fair enough.
**Matt Grainger**
But I like getting a concussion and brain damage or losing an eye or nose or whatever.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, yeah. I mean, any sort of coral cut infection is such a huge risk, right?
**Matt Grainger**
I reckon. Like, even, there was a girl, there was actually a girl out in the water. Her name's Kat. She does events every year for about six months with her and her partner. And they had a longboat with a solar panel on top and just go around the islands. And she had a cut on her foot. She went to seek a cut and just had a shower. But that got, that sort of told, and she told me this story like a week before. Then she got this flesh-eating microbe in her foot and she basically went delirious and had to go to, she went to Padang and their hospital was too dirty and gnarly. So Hans got her out of there. Carried her to the Bassberry. Then went to Jakarta and she had like three skin grafts. And then back to LA. Yeah, just from that. So that straightaway, I was like, I'm not getting my head touching any, any, any shower water. So I was just, it sounds very first world, but I was just, every time I washed my head, it was just with bottled water. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a good tip for people out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, look after your cuts. Yeah, always look after my cuts, even feet, you know. I went to Chopes. First time I went to Chopes in 2000, I got these tiny little cuts on my feet and it was the last day. And I was like, alright, last day, who cares? And then I got home and I got staph. I couldn't walk. Oh. Went to my glands and straightaway I was on antibiotics and prednisone and it went away, but that was nasty. So that taught me a good lesson.
**Michael Frampton**
Mm.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, so get on, get onto your reef cuts quickly, people, when you go to the tropics.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, you've got to clean them, eh? I remember I touched the reef in Arugam Bay in Sri Lanka once, like just got this tiny little graze, thought nothing of it, just put like a little bit of iodine cream on it, that's all I did. And then two days later it's just like 50 cent welt that's just throbbing. And you had to get some antibiotics, so should have just scrubbed it out with a toothbrush and done the right thing at the time. But it was such a small cut, you thought nothing of it, but there must have just been little bits of coral in there or something.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah. Yeah, that was like the ones on the feet at Chopes, tiny little, like little nicks. Mm. Yeah, so, yeah, to get the, yeah, so the tip from Shaz, Dr. Shaz, my partner, take, always have like a spare toothbrush that's clean. You can even get it from, you can get it from the hotel, but you never brush your teeth with it, that's totally clean, and just scrub it, scrub it. Use the little wipes, the iodine alcohol wipes, so you do one-offs, nothing else dirty, and then just keep checking it, yeah. And there's that Teo Gin that's pretty good from Indo, you know, that Chinese, that red bottle, that's always cool, the Chinese, it's called Teo Gin, or they don't use cream, she said, because in the tropics, use the powder, the EVP powder. Yeah. The powders are the go, yeah. Okay. So that's the go, and then cover them up, yeah. If you do your feet too, I always wear shoes, people give me heaps of crap in Indo, because I'm always wearing, if I've got cuts, I'll put shoes on, because you're walking around and you get dirt in the cut. Yeah, so, it's important, you always forget, especially, you're like, oh no, I'll be right, or, you know, you see so many guys just get smashed and don't even do anything.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Oh yeah, it's not worth the risk. Oh, so you're still out charging, catching heaps of waves?
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, still surfing a lot, pretty much surf every day, sometimes twice, got the gym, the surfers' gym, which is good, that keeps you fit and healthy, like, working on the mobility that you told me a year ago, and yeah, just building on that. I think that's a big case, mobility as we get older, and even the younger athletes that we coach too. I've got some pros that train at our gym and we've got them on a mobility program where it's strength training, and I've found, lately, like, in the last few years, like, having the mobility and also the strength training is huge, just for reducing injury, keeping strong. Like, I'm 55 this month, and don't even talk about your age too. It's really important what you say out of your mouth, you know. There's that quote by Bruce Lee, it's like, be careful what you say with your words, because that's why it's called spells and spelling. Like, you're saying, oh, you hear heaps of guys walk around and go, oh, I'm done, I'm old, I'm an old man, and all this, and you're like, hey mate, like, no, it's all relative. Like, we don't, what, it's time really, anyway, you know. Like, just this thing we've made up, but, you know, biological age, and if you keep yourself fit and healthy and moving and eat well, sleep well, you can keep rocking till you're in your 80s.
**Michael Frampton**
I reckon. Yeah, man. Oh, I was just reading, listening to a book, actually, about all of that, and this Harvard professor did an experiment where she got a bunch of 80-year-old men, and she put them in a house where everything in the house was as if it was 30 years ago, and they were only allowed—so the TV programs, the books, the furniture—and they were only allowed to talk about things as if it was 30 years ago or in the present. And within a few days their eyesight improved, like, their blood pressure improved, everything, just by, just like placebo, like, extreme placebo effect.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, I've got to get that book.
**Michael Frampton**
It's a rad book. I'll forward it to you and I'll put it in the show notes for listeners too. I think it's called *The Mind-Body Connection* or something. I'll put it in the show notes and I'll send it to you.
**Matt Grainger**
And even, when I was at—not trying to name drop here—but when I was at Nazare, I towed Lad back to the harbour because he broke down, and it's quite funny, like, it was a big day, like, 60-foot perfect Nazare. And I was with Lucas Padua who's from the Mavericks who trains with Lad. He was towed with me and we were just shifting partners all day. And then I said, oh, your mate Lad, like, I didn't even know Lad anyway from then. And I said, your mate Lad's out at sea doing nothing. We should go check on him. And he was like, yeah, yeah, alright. So we hammered out to Lad and he goes, yeah... yeah... yeah... yeah...
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah...
**Matt Grainger**
Like I couldn't give a stuff what I look like. I just wanna be out there, catch a wave and still be able to surf. My brother and I just went to Macaronis together and we're both chatting that we probably surf better now than we were in our mid-twenties. Just got some boards that are better, we've got more knowledge and we've kept our bodies good. Yeah. Yeah, we've had no serious accidents. So that's lucky. You know, obviously head knocks and all that kind of stuff, but nothing like—I haven't broken any major bones, like bloody broken hands and things like that. But not, you know, I haven't broken a femur or anything. Yeah, so some guys obviously are at a disadvantage if they've had a major injury, but I haven't had any major injuries. I mean now I've realized I still always think when I had a niggle—like a nip, like a niggling hip or, you know, you had to go to chiropractic, you have to do this, you have to do that—you can kind of push through it and move through it. I found that like—and if it's really serious, obviously go and see a physician, which is good—and yeah, you can get a really good massage or just to break that tissue down. But I found now you can move through pain and throughout the whole day. Like not—yeah, everyone thinks I've got to train for an hour and that's it so I don't do it. You know, you can do little snacks like 10 minutes here, you know, 10 minutes in the morning, another 10 minutes at lunchtime, another two minutes here and another two minutes and eventually kind of work through it. I remember when you were working together. You were pretty on to that early in early days. Good diets. I got into my fasting which is good. Very much two meals a day. Love the bone broth. I'm doing coffee, always be black coffee, a little bit of coconut oil. So yeah, that's just all these little hacks that we're learning, helping along the way I reckon.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, but you've got that motivation. You want to keep surfing, you want to keep going to Indo, and that's what, yeah, that's what gets you—okay, no, I'm not going to have that donut. I'm going to go to bed early because I want to go and get barreled at Indo. Like, I know it's such a good motivator.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, and that's it. Keeps you young. Keeps you young and young in the head too. And looking at boards that, you know, I still ride shortboards, more shortboards like a 5'9", and I've got a 5'3" Bobby quad that I ride in the wave pool. Yeah, I can still ride shortboards. Yeah, and just having that money and the boards have got so good now, you know, just the rockers and the things all the shapers—and I remember what Michael Ho, I was talking with my son Mason, I saw in an interview that he said, oh Dad, why do you think you're ripping so much now? And he goes, the boards. And Michael's like, doesn't care, you know. He doesn't have Instagram or Facebook. He's just surfing. And I've seen Coco out in the water when she's in Indo or here and she said, yeah, Pops is just proper. So he's not thinking about how he's 60 and he's charging, you know. Yeah, he's right. We've got new blades and getting tubed at Backdoor and even on the backside at Ala Moana and things like that. But yeah, that's the motivation—surfing. Yeah, it's such a fun sport and I just always say to people it's a puzzle. You know, every time we go for a surf, you're trying to work out that puzzle. It doesn't matter if it's one-foot Longy or it's 20-foot Bommies or it's crazy tubes in Indo. You're still trying to figure out how you're going to paddle in, how you're going to get to your feet, how you're going to generate speed. Is it a straight down drop? It's a knifing drop. Am I going to get my front foot early? All these little things just come into play from all those years of experience. And you're trying to work out that puzzle. And then it's one foot, you just want to go and do one big turn on a one-footer and you're happy. So that's what keeps me motivated. Some days, even if it's crap, I'll still go out for like three waves and just, I'll get my three waves and go to work and train. And I like the training too. I've got rid of the cardio so much, sort of not really doing the cardio so much, the hours. Just strength and movement. If you do a good movement flow, you can get good cardio from that anyway, actually. Yeah, I've got my heart rate more today and you're actually getting flexy. Whereas you don't want to get stiff. And then just doing the right strength training. So you look at all the surfers now, it's all legs. Hardly any upper body, only back and legs. You don't want any chest and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well. Anyway, the rotator cuff exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy so you can still get that mobility in your paddle and you've got the power from your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is just Olympic rings, pull-ups, maybe some skin-the-cat. Yeah. Dumbbell pull-ups as well off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, obviously, squats with a barbell, goblet squats, front squats, split squats, all that kind of stuff is super important I reckon. So you're getting that mobility and doing the weights and getting that connection and feeling when you're doing the weight, not just doing it for the sake of it. Like doing those reps and really thinking about that rep. Are you just getting your body in those positions that you could do in the water or land? So when you go out there like a martial artist, you're ready to go. You drilled it so many times it becomes second nature.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, strength training's so good. It's also for like—strength training increases your body awareness actually and just maintains your bone density. It's just, it's so cool. And if you're doing it—yeah, do upper body, lower body—it doesn't get any more kind of hard of a cardio workout than doing like a strength training circuit if you want to, you know, get the heart rate up. What sort of stuff are you doing for the hips, like in your regime?
**Matt Grainger**
Oh man, mine’s—I had ACL surgery in my early 20s, and it’s now almost, so, you know, bone on bone basically. So a lot of my training is just keeping on top of that. So like slow moving heavy stuff with—you know that, have you seen the Knees Over Toes guy?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah, he's awesome.
**Matt Grainger**
I do backwards walking on the treadmill and just, yeah, following some of his stuff and sticking to keeping the legs strong. Because it’s interesting because they say it's bone on bone, right? And it can get like that, but your cartilage is gone, your cartilage doesn’t really come back. But there is scar tissue that forms where the cartilage was. As long as that scar tissue’s there, you’re fine. If you do too much stuff and that scar tissue wears away—so if you do too much volume and you don’t allow that scar tissue to heal and reform and the fluids to come back—then it can be bone on bone. You get a real sore joint. But so now, as long as I keep the volume of what I’m doing on the knee, it’s fine. I can actually—how many reps—sort of more like six reps, only a couple of sets, but, you know, because I’ve got a history of strength training, I know the form, I’m strong, I know what to do. Backwards walking on the treadmill and some band—lots of balance work as well, because it’s actually those small little twitching movements in the joint that do the most damage. So if your balance is on point and your joint is nice and stable, then that’s one of the big things as well. So keeping the balance—like single standing on one leg with your eyes closed. Little things like that.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, I do. I love the pendulum jumps. You know the pendulum jumps? So it’s a one-legged jump. And when I do that, my eyes closed as well. Yeah, when I coach a lot of the athletes as well, like before they’re competing, like I’ll say, like, we all do five jumps eyes open and then the last five closed, and it helps with that body awareness, you know, for late drops and big drops out of the lip and being aware of where their body is. Yeah. And I even did it when I cracked my head just to check if I had concussion. I was like, yep, I’m fine. You know, I’m not a doc, I’m not a doctor, but you can jump one-legged with your eyes closed, if you pretty much, and you’re fine, you don’t have concussion.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do a bit of sprinting as well. Sprinting is really good for you. So I do a bit of that and I still do like this bodyweight gymnastic style strength training as well. I’m still doing that, following a guy called Naughty Man—I can’t even pronounce his name. I think it’s Ido Portal. I can’t remember how to pronounce it. But it’s functional performance training. He’s doing a lot of really unique stuff. He’s worth a follow. He’s pretty out there with some of what he says, but he’s also got some really interesting tips. A lot of, you know, not necessarily heavy weights, but functional stuff. He’s worth a follow. Yeah, and just keeping on top of the diet and sleep, man. That’s like you mentioned, man.
**Matt Grainger**
Just keeping a clean diet, getting enough sleep and giving a good balance of rest and stress. Because, yeah, life can get stressful, but that’s only what you make it really. But yeah, if you sleep well, you have a good sleep, you can conquer anything really. Hey, I find too the shoulders are important—like the rotator—and a couple of lessons for it. So if you keep on top of that, just like maintenance work, like prehab, like light weights, like 10% of your body weight. Mm-hmm. Just getting in all those different angles because you do—you know when you’re paddling super hard trying to make that wave when it’s hollow—you’re going to put a lot of stress on the shoulder joint. And I’ve seen so many mates—like, you got to look at your mates who’ve had surgeries, you know what I mean? Like it’s always shoulders, knees and spine pretty much. Get ahead of the game.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, hanging, hanging for your shoulder. I had a really good—just hanging. Active and passive hanging. And I mean, I’m lucky when I was living in the US, I did three different DNS courses.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember you doing that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and so I do a lot of that sort of rehab-style training still and that’s really good for shoulders and core. That helps keep my shoulders in check.
**Matt Grainger**
I remember. I remember you got injured and I did that DNS course. I think you did your hamstring, right?
**Michael Frampton**
Yes, right.
**Matt Grainger**
And it was the day before and you said, "Matty, can you do this?" I went, yeah, I did a whole week with you. That’s right. Yeah, it was massive. It was massive on hanging. And you know the rings too?
**Michael Frampton**
Yep.
**Matt Grainger**
Up on the rings. Rings are better for a surfer too. Like doing chin-ups, pull-ups on a ring because you get that nice rotate—you get that movement in the shoulder joint. Whereas just a straight bar, you don’t really get that movement because we actually reach out and rotate our shoulder as we paddle. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was pretty, it was an issue. Cool guy, full-on he is, but yeah, I learned a lot.
**Michael Frampton**
Hmm. Cool. Are you still doing ice baths?
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah. Ice bath and sauna. Got an ice bath in the backyard and sauna. We’re lucky. And we got two at the gym now. We’ve got two saunas and two ice baths.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow.
**Matt Grainger**
So yeah. Yeah, it’s good. Everyone loves them. Everyone’s created a little community there.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it’s awesome. What about like, have you looked into light health?
**Matt Grainger**
I have seen it. I haven’t really done it personally. It looks pretty interesting. It’s just a matter of time and money, yeah. And I do have some infrared but like not some lighting, but you know, it’s not huge.
**Michael Frampton**
Have you been looking—it’s just really interesting. There’s this guy, Jack Kruse, has been on about it for years, like 20 years, but now there’s all these scientific studies coming out proving his theories right about how important sunlight exposure is for health and how it turns on certain genes, like the POMC gene, and how if you’re exposing yourself to too much blue light after the sun’s gone down, how that affects blood sugar and circadian rhythms. But I mean if you’re getting up and going surfing every day and getting to bed on time, it’s funny...
**Matt Grainger**
That’s all urban and all that, like, huh? Yeah, they say go out and play, you know, get the sun. And we live on the East Coast here, so every early surf you're like looking into the sun. Exactly. In the morning, you know, blinking going on. You know, different on the West Coast. Yeah, if we go to bed at the right time—and I try not to look at my phone before I go to bed. So yeah, I just try to banish that, put it away. Because yeah, that’s a bad habit, isn’t it? Just before, looking at the screen. Try and look at computers as well, onto that in that way. Yeah. Yeah, you can just go, yeah, just basic stuff. Yeah, keeping those circadian rhythms. I haven’t done the glasses or anything like that. Like the blue-light-blocking glasses. Yeah. Dave Asprey and whatnot.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, they get into it a lot.
**Matt Grainger**
They go hardcore on everything. They know how much is sort of a day. You think there’s a fine line between how much time you’ve got in a day?
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, exactly. But I mean, Dave and his mates, they’re spending a lot of money on—like Dave Asprey has a goal to live to 120. I think he might have even said 150. But like, and be healthy and functional at that age. So he’s making sure that, you know, every day he’s doing as much as he can. So those guys, I don’t know. I don’t know if I want to live that long.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, it's kind of sad. You kind of want to die normally, you know, like, I think with dignity. Yeah, like you don’t have to go...
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Because if you're the only one doing it and like, you’re still alive and healthy and all your friends are dead...
**Matt Grainger**
You're like, oh. What's the point? I mean, we talk about that all the time. Yeah, it's overboard. And almost, it brings a lot of anxiety I think too. Like trying to keep on point. Like you’re not actually—like they want to get to this goal of being this age, but they're not actually having fun in the present. Like it’s like, still got to live your life, hey. You still got to have fun with your friends, be with your friends. And you know, like I’m not like a tight—there's no way I’m a total monk. Like I still eat really well. But if, let's say, you know, if I'm with friends and family, I'm not going to go, I’m not eating that because I’m this. You know, like, yeah, I’ll still want to be part of the group, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, it’s not going to kill me. Yeah, I want to have a good time with my friends. I’m not going to be that guy. “Oh, I don’t do that because I want to live to 100.”
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I’m going to go to bed at 8 o’clock on Christmas Day because I want to live to 150. Yeah, it’s kind of like... really?
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, whatever. What about if you get hit by a car? Exactly. You know, I don’t mean that in a bad way, but you’ve still got to... yeah. And it’s funny, like all this grounding. You know, we hardly wear shoes in Indo. You know, you hardly wear thongs. When I was hanging out with you, yeah, you hardly wore... I remember going, “Mate, are you wearing shoes today?” That'd be rare. Oh well, I had to get the remaining shoes.
**Michael Frampton**
I hate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but that’s the thing, all the stuff that’s coming out in the latest health stuff from these guys, it’s what we do anyway. Especially as surfers—we get early morning sun, we’re getting lots of grounding work because we’re surfing in the ocean. That’s the best way to get your grounding done, is in the ocean or walking on the sand in bare feet. We’re getting it done.
**Matt Grainger**
Anyway. But it’s interesting these studies coming out and proving it. And by these tasks, you can—you can buy a grounding mat and walk outside, put your feet on the cold grass. You know, like, oh yeah, with cold sand. Like I’ve been surfing the wave pool a lot lately and it’s super fun, but you still don’t get that feeling of the energy of the ocean. Mmm. Like, you know, it doesn’t matter if you body surf, surf, bodyboard, whatever—you dive in the ocean for a swim, you always come out feeling amazing.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah.
**Matt Grainger**
It’s from the negative ion, bro. Yeah, that’s part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, and just maybe the soul energy of the waves, just being in nature. And yeah, it’s funny. You can go in the wave pool, you have a good time, but you don’t get that buzz or that feeling in your whole body from the natural waves.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Matt Grainger**
And the soul and all that.
**Michael Frampton**
How much time have you spent in the wave pools?
**Matt Grainger**
Ah, there’s a new one in Sydney now. Sydney. And every Thursday I teach a fitness class to the staff. I’ve been doing that for the past week. Yeah, I go out every Thursday and I make sure I surf from 4 to 5, and then I run the class at 5:30–6:30. So that’s pretty cool. Like I’ll ride a little 5’3 Bobby quad and get about 20 waves. And then we ran a—we ran a pretty cool course the other week. We did an Indo masterclass clinic. So we taught people how to ride left tubes. So we had the expert mode, which is just a barrel. It’s pretty cool. You take off, you can do a Rio or just a setup turn and get this nice tube. That’s a pretty cool tube—like the barrel is wider than it is high. Yeah, you get quite low in the tube and then kind of turn the corner of it like Macaronis. So we did about 30 minutes. I broke down all the best surfers in the world getting tubed, TV screen, had about 8 participants. And so we broke that down—foot placement for backhand, frontside, getting—and then we did movement patterns like mobility patterns to open up people’s hips and ankles. Because that’s pretty much what you need when getting low in tubes and most tube riding. So we did that, we went surfed for an hour. Everyone got about 12 waves. And then there’s an AI—it’s crazy—they film this AI called FlowState on the left and the right, but we’re only on the left. You come in and it’s got all the clips of you. So I got a coach’s password. So I went through everyone’s clips and wrote down what they were doing right, what they were doing wrong. Yeah, it was rad. And then we had lunch, and then we did apnea training. So then we went into their leisure pool, which is heated, because the wave pool is only about 11 degrees at the moment. Of course. Yeah, it’s quite cold. Yeah. So it’s like 28. Then we taught the science of breath-holding. Then we went and did it in the water. And then Shaz did a chat on Indo—what to take in your first aid kit and, you know, reef cuts. Yeah, it was awesome. That was a full day. It was fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. That sounds unreal. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes too.
**Matt Grainger**
Yeah, cool. That’d be great.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright, Matt. Hey, it’s just gone three o’clock. I better go do school pickup now, but thanks for doing the show again. I really appreciate it.
**Matt Grainger**
Awesome, brother. Take it easy. Good to catch up. Hopefully see you when you come to Sydney.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, for sure. We’ll be over there at some point. Keep me in the loop with the app.
**Matt Grainger**
Will do.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright. Thank you for tuning into the Surf Mastery Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate, and review on whatever app you’re using—Spotify, Apple Podcasts. And of course, we are now on YouTube so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to surfmastery.com for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me also at surfmastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs—one with the five best tips from this show and one the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to surfmastery.com. On the homepage there, you’ll see them. Until next time, keep surfing.

101 Want to Surf Stronger and Longer? Discover the Fitness Secrets With Matt Grainger
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**100 Devon Howard-Understanding the Connection Between Form and Style in Surfing** Aug 09, 2024

Is your surfing stylish—or just frantic? Discover why true style isn’t about hand placement or pose, but something far deeper that starts with your form.
In this milestone 100th episode, surf legend Devon Howard breaks down one of surfing’s most misunderstood concepts—style. Drawing parallels to art, gymnastics, and even ancient sculpture, Devon explains how timeless, functional form—not forced flair—is the path to smoother, more satisfying surfing.
Learn how efficient body mechanics create stylish surfing, even without trying
Understand the subtle but powerful difference between *natural* style and *contrived* movement
Discover why relaxed posture and patience—not aggression—unlock flow, trim, and that elusive “feel” of great surfing
Listen now to elevate your surf experience with expert insights into how style is born from form—and how you can start embodying both in the lineup.

**Follow Devon Howard -** Check out Devon’s surfing and updates on his Instagram: Devon_howard
**Linkedin** : https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-howard-a4b2a613/.
Connect with Surf Mastery:
Surf Mastery Website: Download the free PDF with the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast at surfmastery.com.
**Instagram:** Surf Mastery
**Key Points**
Style in surfing is discussed, focusing on its subjective nature and the difficulty in defining it, with references to famous surfers like Joel Tudor and Joel Parkinson.
A conversation on the importance of style in surfing, drawing parallels with other artistic expressions like gymnastics, dance, and bullfighting, highlighting the timeless human attraction to beauty.
The evolution of style in surfing, from the 1960s to the modern era, is explored, discussing how competition surfing has influenced the emphasis on style versus radical maneuvers.
A debate on whether surfers should prioritize style over radical maneuvers, with an emphasis on the importance of maintaining good form and efficient surfing techniques.
The significance of style in longboard surfing competitions, where criteria include style, flow, and grace, is discussed, along with the challenges of training judges to evaluate these subjective qualities.
The relationship between good form and style in surfing is highlighted, emphasizing that efficient form naturally leads to stylish surfing, much like in other sports such as golf and baseball.
Advice is given on improving surfing style by focusing on form, being patient, and not rushing maneuvers, with an emphasis on the psychological and physiological benefits of adopting a relaxed and centered posture.
**Outline**
**Podcast Introduction and Episode Milestone**
Michael Frampson, the host of the Surf Mastery Podcast, introduces episode 100, a milestone for the podcast.
Michael mentions the revamped website, surfmastery.com, which features a free PDF listing the top five tips from the Surf Mastery podcast.
The special guest for this episode is Devon Howard, who has appeared in previous episodes discussing longboarding, nose riding, mid-lengths, and twin fins.
**Feedback and Support**
Michael encourages listeners to provide feedback on the show by emailing Mike@surfmastery.com, DMing on Instagram, or leaving a comment under the episode's visual.
Listeners are also encouraged to support Devon Howard by following his Instagram.
**Devon Howard's Background**
Devon Howard is currently working with Channel Islands in Santa Barbara, contributing to new surfboard models.
**Grateful Dead Debate**
Michael and Devon discuss the debate between Britt Merrick and Chaz Smith about the Grateful Dead.
Devon expresses indifference towards the Grateful Dead's music but acknowledges the strong case made by Britt Merrick for their cultural significance.
The conversation highlights the difference between experiencing the Grateful Dead live versus listening to them on Spotify.
**Other Live Performances**
Devon mentions Radiohead and James Brown as bands that are better experienced live.
Michael shares his appreciation for Amp Fiddler's live performances and recommends catching the Action New Zealand Band live in Santa Barbara.
**Origin and Evolution of the Word 'Style'**
Michael provides a summary of the etymology of the word 'style', tracing its evolution from a writing instrument to a manner of expression and eventually to a distinctive mode of dress.
The discussion touches on the word's application in various contexts, including surfing.
**Style in Surfing**
Devon defines style in surfing as a measure of good surfing and a marker of one's expression of surfing.
The conversation explores the subjective nature of style, ranging from beauty to contrived and non-functional elements.
Michael and Devon discuss the importance of style in surfing, relating it to efficiency, grace, and form.
**Style vs. Radical Surfing**
The discussion contrasts style with radical surfing, noting that some surfers prioritize radical maneuvers over style.
Examples of stylish surfers include Joel Parkinson, Kelly Slater, and Gabriel Medina, while Adriano D'Souza is mentioned as an example of a surfer with less emphasis on style.
**Technical Aspects of Style**
Devon explains that good style is often a result of good form, which allows for efficient and seamless surfing.
The conversation highlights the importance of relaxation, proper body positioning, and maintaining trim speed for optimal performance.
Devon emphasizes that style should not be contrived but should naturally follow from good form and technique.
**Style in Competition Surfing**
The discussion touches on the role of style in competition surfing, noting that while style was once a given, it has become less emphasized in recent decades.
Devon mentions the inclusion of style, flow, and grace in the criteria for longboard surfing competitions.
The conversation explores the potential for incorporating style more formally into shortboard competition criteria.
**Efficiency and Neurological Efficiency**
Michael shares an example of how infants learn to stand efficiently due to their weakness, and how athletes maintain this efficiency for optimal form.
The discussion highlights the importance of joint centration and proper bone stacking for efficient movement and force transfer.
**Feeling Good Style**
Devon believes that good style can be felt, describing moments where the turn or movement feels right and looks good.
The conversation emphasizes the connection between feeling good style and the overall surfing experience, including the reward and satisfaction derived from dedicated practice and learning.
**Contrived vs. Natural Style**
Devon distinguishes between contrived style, where surfers try to present a certain look, and natural style, which arises from functional form and technique.
The conversation advises against rushing surfing and emphasizes the importance of patience, proper form, and not forcing style.
**Transcription**
**Devon Howard**
When I—when I often think about style, there's always like—there's two camps. There's the people that get it, and style is usually—it's like, you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know when you see it. You know something is gross or smut as opposed to art.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the *Surf Mastery Podcast*. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and this is episode 100 of the podcast. A little bit of a milestone. Special guest for this episode. And we've also revamped the website, surfmastery.com, and on the front page of that website is a free PDF listing the top five tips from the *Surf Mastery Podcast*. So go to surfmastery.com and you can download that PDF for free. Today's guest—well, I was looking back through all the stats on this podcast, and the most downloaded episodes have been from Devon Howard, so it made sense to have him on episode 100. And so you can go back and listen to—he first appeared on the show, uh, episode 41, discussing longboarding and nose riding. Then it was back in, uh, episode 70. Uh, we talked about mid-lengths. In episode 86, it was twin fins. And today in episode 100, Devon Howard joins us again to discuss style. Style is something that is—it's fundamental. It's paramount for every type of surfing that is done, from traditional longboarding all the way through to high performance shortboarding. All of the greats, all of the most memorable surfers, have good style. They are stylish—from Joel Tudor in traditional longboarding through to Joel Parkinson as a high-performance, competitive shortboarder. Tom Curren, uh, mid-lengths and twin fins. You got Torren Martyn.
**Michael Frampton**
And of course, Devon Howard himself is a very stylish surfer. He's very smooth, very graceful on a longboard, on a mid-length, and a twin fin. We've even seen some footage of him riding, uh, three thrusters out there on his Instagram. And his style, his technique, his gracefulness runs throughout his surfing. So a perfect topic for us to discuss in episode 100. So I would love to hear your feedback on the show in general—the last 100 episodes and of course this episode. Go ahead, send us an email: mike@surfmastery.com. Or you can DM me on Instagram or leave a comment under the, uh, the visual for this episode. And of course, support Devon Howard. Give his Instagram a follow. And of course, he's, uh, joining us from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara. Uh, Devon is currently working with Channel Islands—working on some new surfboard models as well. Some of the most popular boards recently he's been a part of. So without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation with Devon Howard. I actually see a lot of agreement between Brett and Chaz on this subject. Yeah, yeah, because there are—there are things, right, that you go to a Grateful Dead concert and you experience the show and the vibe—you don't really listen to them on Spotify.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. It's—it's something to be enjoyed live.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. There's a certain style and vibe to them, I think, that come across differently in person than it does. And also the audience they sort of draw in. Yeah. Rather to the music on Spotify right there.
**Devon Howard**
There are two bands that I think are better live as well, which—I think Radiohead is better live. I like Radiohead. I think a lot of their albums are great. I've been to a few of their shows that I think—no, this is 10 or 15 years ago. I don't know if that's still the case, but at the time when they were really peaking, they were insane live. And then I also saw James Brown live. Oh, wow. 25 years ago. And that was incredible. Mhm. I mean, what a showman.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, there's the Radiohead *Live from the Basement*—um, unbelievable. Like, gives you—I can't remember what album it is—they play in full from their studio, basement studio, and it just makes you appreciate them on a whole other level. Yeah. Just—just by watching that on YouTube, not even being there. Well, yeah. Um, I remember seeing a gentleman called Amp Fiddler, another one of the best live acts I ever saw. Um, gave me a new appreciation of his music. He's sort of new age funk slash reggae. Um, interesting music. Yeah. Catch a Fire. Catch a Fire—they're doing a tour through California at the moment. They're another unbelievable band live. Their live performance and sound is bigger than their studio albums. I think they’re actually a New Zealand band. You get a chance to see them—they often play in Santa Barbara. I forget the venue name. It's like a 500-capacity venue in Santa Barbara. They always play there.
**Devon Howard**
Is that the Bowl? I'm not sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Can't remember.
**Devon Howard**
Anyway, a lot of venues there, but yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Style. Let's talk about style. Do you—yeah, what would—what do you—know the origin of the word?
**Devon Howard**
Um, I don't, but I'd imagine. Uh—well, I hope you did some research on it. Is it, um—the Latin word? Is it—Greek? Is it—where does it come from?
**Michael Frampton**
Let me sort of summarize from *Etymology Online*. From the early 14th century, it started out as a writing instrument—pen or stylus—a piece of written discourse or narrative, characteristic rhetorical mode of an author, a manner or mode of expression, a way of life, behavior. Then the word sort of transformed—the evolution of the word, uh, from writing tool went into writing, into manner of writing, into mode of expression in writing of a particular writer or author. Um, and then it was in the 1500s—it was paired with the word "substance," which basically meant back then, divine part or essence. That sort of gave the word a deeper meaning, including finer appearance or dashing character. Um, then it was—the word then went into an artist's particular mode or form of skilled presentation. That was later extended into athletics. Then by the 1800s it was "distinctive or characteristic mode of dress." Obviously it was more in regards to fashion. Um, and so there's a little bit of a history of the word. So I think there's a lot of depth to that. And it's certainly—it's very apt for surfing. A lot of those meanings, I think. Yes. Tell me what you think about style and how important it is.
**Devon Howard**
Well, style is, um—from my personal experience growing up, it was a—it was a measure of good surfing. And, um, it was a marker of, like, one's own presentation of their expression of surfing. Uh, I don't want to cheapen it by, I guess, using the word "brand," like your brand of surfing, but, um, everyone has their own form of expression. And style is—oftentimes I see style as making the difficult look easy. And my own belief in, you know, just absorbing what was around me when I was a kid—you know, we're humans. We sort of mimic and imitate what's around us. I haven't innovated anything really at all. I've just looked at what's around. And you take bits and pieces. First you take it from your parents, of course. And then as you get out in the world, it's like what's going on around you. And in San Diego, where I grew up—and I think this was the same in many other surf cities in not only the US but the world—in the 80s, the older surfers, 10 to 20 years older than you, were style-focused as opposed to this idea of ripping or tearing something apart and doing it with reckless abandon. That was something that started getting more popular as I was a kid. So I was sort of born into this era where one thing was kind of falling out of favor, and this other form of surfing was gaining popularity. And—sorry, that was kind of a muddled answer, but I think it's one of the most difficult subjects in surfing to discuss or to describe because it's so subjective. And it comes—the word style comes with a lot of different ideas to people, ranging from beauty to something that's very contrived and nonfunctional.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I mean, the word "style" itself has—as you sort of addressed—a lot of meanings. Like, everyone has their own unique style, you could say, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are stylish. So when we think of stylish surfers, we do—we think of beauty and grace and flow. And I think it is related to that, and it's related to efficiency, right? I mean, Rob Machado comes to mind. I think he's sort of an incredibly stylish surfer, but he also fits in that modern category—category of radical. Yeah, he encompasses both. And I mean, world champ Joel Parkinson obviously fit the criteria of competition surfing but remained incredibly smooth and stylish.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. Well, you know, I think depending on where you grew up and what culture you came from or grew up in, style could also just not be that important. You know, if surfing to you—or just to any individual—is about really pushing as hard as they can with maneuvers and being as radical as they can and, you know, tearing apart a wave—you know, like you think of the Brazilian Storm guys. They're—for years—have been, you know—they're well-deserved. They're incredible athletes. They are highly athletic, and it is explosive maneuvers. And they're acrobats in many ways. For some reason, as that game has gained popularity, some aspects of the presentation have sort of fallen to the wayside. Whereas in gymnastics, presentation and form is still really part of the whole thing. It was never really let go. Like, if you do a floor routine in gymnastics, or let's say dance or anything like that—they're doing really kind of athletic, powerful moves, but they also keep the form. And I don't know quite the exact reason, but that sort of started falling out of favor in surfing. Mostly because what drives our conversations oftentimes revolves around competition surfing. Like, competition surfing drives a lot of the media narratives. Let’s say—who are—like, where do we get our information from? It’s driven by the sell to whatever extent that is. *Stab* and their audience.
**Devon Howard**
*Surfline*, kind of, sort of, but they’re more focused on cameras and whatnot. And then most of the magazines have gone out of business. But only ten years ago, a lot of the stories were driven by the personalities and the folks that competed. And there was a mixed bag in there of surfers that had great style, like Joel Parkinson, who you mentioned. I would say Kelly Slater has a good style—it’s a different style, it's his own. And then on the opposite end of that would be like an Adriano de Souza or somebody like that, where he's clearly just incredibly talented, but sort of putting his surfing together in one seamless, fluid motion was not a focus of his. And so it’s been interesting to watch, and the broader conversations of the mainstream—how that’s sort of played out. Back to where I grew up—I grew up on the fringe of all that anyway. So I was riding longboards in the 80s and 90s—that was as fringe as it got. And in that world all through that time, style was still important. Even when folks were trying to emulate shortboard maneuvers on longboards, there was still an emphasis on style. Sorry, I’ll shut up. I don’t know where I’m going with that, but yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So I’m just wondering—when you look at—I mean, I think that you mentioned the Brazilian Storm. I think Gabriel Medina is quite stylish. Not all the time, but probably actually more so when you see him freesurf. He sort of—he just seems to be more relaxed when he's not surfing in a competition. And I think that's maybe what separates the—I think that’s a big part of being stylish is you're very calm and you're relaxed. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going slower or that you're even putting less effort in. It's just—maybe you referenced gymnastics. I think a gymnast could do the same routine—they get the same height, the same amount of power—but if one of their runs, they were purposely trying to keep the presentation of themselves relaxed and calm, it would be more visually appealing. Sort of making it look easy.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. That’s the—that’s the thing. Making the difficult look easy. Mhm. In the 60s or 50s or whatever, the boards weren't very maneuverable. So, um, clearly the market did—surfing was just people who were stylish and could kind of keep it together. Um, hang on one second. Um, are you hearing a beeping on your end? What? I’m getting messages. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Is that your phone?
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. I don't know how to turn off the iMessage on my, uh—oh, it's on the computer. I'm trying to see how to undo this. Is this on?
**Michael Frampton**
Your phone—a phone or your laptop or your iPad?
**Devon Howard**
It's on my laptop. Oh, sorry. You're going to have to edit this out. That's all right. I'm just getting, like, every one of them. Don't fuck me up. The client. Claudia, um, do you have any idea how to get rid of iMessage off here? Preferences? Services?
**Michael Frampton**
That's a good question. I don't—I don't have my, um, I don't have my laptop linked to my phone, so. Yeah.
**Devon Howard**
Don't do it. Preferences. Let's see.
**Michael Frampton**
I'd say it'd be under Notifications. Notifications and Focus—it's like a bell symbol.
**Devon Howard**
On, uh, on the computer itself or on the phone?
**Michael Frampton**
I'm looking on my laptop.
**Devon Howard**
Where did you find the notifications? In System Preferences?
**Michael Frampton**
Okay.
**Devon Howard**
System Preferences, Notifications. There they are. Look at that.
**Michael Frampton**
And top right, there's a—there's a button: Allow Notifications. So you can turn that off or on. I'd say that's it.
**Devon Howard**
Only five messages? There we go. Okay. I want to turn that off. Okay. Apologies for that. Okay. So, um. All right.
**Michael Frampton**
So where were we? Let me throw out some adjectives that I wrote down after thinking about style a little bit: efficient, graceful, functional, calm, focused, relaxed, grounded, present, fearless—or maybe, better put, courageous. Is there anything you would add to that or you think shouldn't be there?
**Devon Howard**
Uh, no. I just think it's more about a calm and a gracefulness. It's mostly what it is. And it's just a—it's just the form of your personal expression. I think a lot of the style—you'll see style of folks from a distance—and a lot of ways it matches up to their personality. Right? You'll see someone who's quite busy, a lot of—a lot of kinetic, sort of frantic motions. And—not always the case—but sometimes, like, okay, this person's a little over-caffeinated. In general, you know, they're really mellow, kind of quiet people have this very quiet. Always meet a really quiet surfer with their style, and they're really loud and obnoxious. There's exceptions to the rule, but if you think about it quickly, that's not often the case. And so, um, I think a lot of those adjectives actually work pretty well. Um, I don't—what did you say? Courageous?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Devon Howard**
I don't really know that that applies to it, really. I don't think it's really much to do with courage other than—well, I was—
**Michael Frampton**
Thinking that. I was just wondering if that was a better word than fearless.
**Devon Howard**
Mhm.
**Michael Frampton**
Because if you—if you look—if you look scared, that's not very stylish, is it?
**Devon Howard**
No, no. It's very—you're tense. Style. And yeah, I've said to people—I don't do surf coaching—but if I've ever seen someone in the water and it looks like they're struggling, if it's appropriate or sort of convenient, like they're just sort of right there, I'll say, do you—do you mind if I offer some advice? It's usually well received. A lot of times I've said, I think you just relax a little bit. Your body's too tense. Looks bad, but it also screws up your ability to surf, because now it's affected the form. Like you're sort of hunched over and bracing for, like, some sort of impact, where you need to be more relaxed. The arms need to be relaxed. The shoulders should be relaxed. You should be able to sort of sink back into your knees and your hips and let those kind of bend and sort of sit into the board nicely. And so I think, um, what I—what I often think about style—there's always like there's two camps. There's the people that get it and—and style is usually—it's like, you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know when you see it. You know something is gross or smut as opposed to art.
**Devon Howard**
Like you go into an art gallery and there's naked—you know, images of a naked person. How is that not pornography? And it's like, well, you know when you see it. And it's like style. You sort of know it when you see it. And then you have, um, the other end of that, where people will feel style is just posing and looking cool. Like you're putting your hands in the air to look like Alex Knost or Miki Dora or Rob Machado—whoever. Insert the surfer. You're trying to mimic their hand placement. And sometimes the hand placement provides no real function or value to the ride, other than—it might feel good, I guess—but it's not making you surf better. Um, where I like to—I often will—I will argue or believe that yes, there are people that pose, and that does exist. I grant you that. But good style also brings about really good form. Or I would look at it a different way: really good form pulls along the style into it. So if you have good form—and whether that's in a barrel or a cutback—if your body is doing sort of the right things to make a beautiful, seamless ride easier.
**Devon Howard**
Um, along with that usually comes a pretty good style. If you don't have a good style, a lot of times the form is really working against your surfing. So, for example, you go to do a cutback and your arm is up and back—frontside—and let's say I'm turning this way, frontside cutback. Well, if my back arm is in the air waving behind me, I'm really struggling to get my body around, and I'm actually having to work really hard for it. Could potentially even injure yourself. So that really hinders your surfing. But if I brought the arm in and dropped it down and then had the arm kind of point toward where I want to go, the rest of my body goes. And it's actually quite easy to do the turn, and consequently, it looks much better. Doesn't look so awkward. Yeah. And this could be said of your front arm. I've seen folks do cutbacks with—I don't know why this happens—but sometimes their front arm is sort of flailing and going behind them over here, or they're extending and reaching too far. So when there's this nice balance of the front and the back hand on the frontside cutback—it looks cool. Hey, that's great. If someone took a photo, yeah, you'd probably put it on the wall.
**Devon Howard**
Looks pretty good. Looks like Michael Peterson or somebody or whatever. Joel Parkinson. Ethan Ewing would be a really good contemporary example, I guess. And—but when it's all sort of like the form is there, it looks good, but now you're surfing better and the turn is faster and more complete. And also, when you have nice form, you get the board in trim. What I mean by that is—when the board's in trim, it's sort of—if you know anything about sailing—when everything's in alignment with the bow and the sail and the boat is really hitting its top speed, there's nothing really hindering or dragging or fighting against that top trim speed. In surfing, you want to get to the top trim speed, because when you have speed, it's easier to complete maneuvers. It's less work. You go into the maneuvers with speed—you can do a lot better. It's like snowboarding. If anyone's snowboarded, you know that the first few days you're learning, the instructor will say, you just need to get going faster. And you're like, what? No, that's scary. I don't want to go faster. But—well, you're going so slow that that's why you're tumbling and you're catching an edge and you're getting stuck on the hill. Go faster. And then you see this light bulb moment with people. Like, my gosh, well, I should have just been going faster all along.
**Devon Howard**
It's the same with surfing. You'll see people struggling to get trim speed because their form is so terrible. They're not understanding that the board is not even in trim. The board then noses out, or they're waving their arms. They're—they're shaking their body like this, and they're trying to wiggle and do stuff. And you're watching the board underneath, and the board is just like on a gimbal, just like not getting any trim. It's just stop and go, stop and go. So it's this utter fail, where if the person just relaxed a little bit, relaxed their arms, don't try to flop the body around and just get the idea of even going straight—which is hard to do on a shortboard, clearly—if you're a beginner, you probably shouldn't even be on the floor. It's just going to be a struggle. Yet a board that's medium, like a mid-length or something, or a longboard, where you can kind of stand there and glide and trim, and then you can kind of get that form where your body's relaxed. And, um, so a lot of times, good style, I believe, just comes with the right form, if that makes sense.
**Michael Frampton**
I totally agree. Yeah. And that's what I think—that's what a surf coach's job is. And then it's—once the person becomes—at first, the new, better form will feel strange and maybe even abnormal and uncomfortable. And it's only once that form becomes ingrained and you become comfortable with it, then it looks stylish. So it's—it's maybe it's a precursor to style, is good form.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, another thing that I've thought about a lot in the last several years about style is—it sort of belies the technique or the difficulty of the maneuver. I think if it looks like someone's trying really super hard to do, like, a—let's say, a crazy air or just like the craziest turn where, like, they blow—they, like, blow the tail out and spin the board around and like, oh, whoa, that was insane, that was so difficult. But if you see somebody do a top-speed cutback and they don't lose or drift the fins, and they just go at Mach 20 and just—bam—come up fluid and seamless, you might say, man, that was really smooth. That was really stylish. But you don't often think that that was also really difficult. It's interesting. And I'm not trying to get people to cheer more for the stylist, I guess, but I think it's worth sort of acknowledging that Mikey February or Torren Martyn and some of those things they're doing—we're drawn to them because they're beautiful, which is undeniable. But it's also interesting to think that these are the highest level people at the very upper echelon, at the top peak of ability, of sphere, fame. And there's something to be learned there—to not just only acknowledge and only see the style, which is great.
**Devon Howard**
I love that. I'll watch that stuff all day long, but to, like, hit the rewind button and look at what they're doing and how on-rail that board is and how difficult it is to hold the line and not lose it. Because a lot of times, especially in performance shortboarding, it's incredible what the surfers do. It's like it's a controlled failure of the surfing. So a lot of times when the fins release, it's a—and I know this because I put a lot of thought into fins and foils and whatnot—a lot of the best high-performance surfing maneuvers are a controlled failure. Mhm. They're pushing the limits of the board, and a lot of times the fins or the equipment can't really handle what these surfers are giving it. It's really interesting. Look at someone laying into a turn, and their butt is sliding across the wave, and the fins and the board and everything's sliding. And then look at, like, a Mick Fanning or somebody who can hold that—or Ethan Ewing—and hold it all the way through. That's gnarly. That is just like peak form. But you're like, man, that was so smooth, but you're not ever saying, that was so difficult to do. And I don't know what the point is I'm making.
**Devon Howard**
I guess it comes back to, uh, like the kind of surfing I like to do. It could be easily scoffed at as pretty easy, like, hey, mid-length surfing, you're just going straight. It's not really difficult. But I don't know, man. At the highest levels—I think what Torren Martyn does, I think what February does if he's on a mid-length or other—you know, there's other surfers out there doing it, and I kind of watch—wow, look at that. Five-sixths of the rail of that board is buried. And that's what I do myself. And that's—to me—that's the most thrilling thing, is to bury that rail. How far can I push this thing before it fails me? That's just really, really thrilling. You're just on the edge of disaster. You know, when you go on one of those seven-foot boards, go to the bottom, slink, you know, and coil up into the board and push it as hard as you can. Alex Knost does this really good as well. I can go on forever. People do a great job of this, and they push all that board through. And then if you don't watch it—you know, if you're not too far forward or too much weight on your front foot—you'll slingshot up the face. It's this fast, free feeling, like a flying feeling that's highly addictive.
**Devon Howard**
It's something that you just keep—my people that are into those types of boards, they just keep chasing it. And then down the line, do the same thing again. Now I'm going to bury a whole lot of rail on the cutback. How hard can I push it? And when I get down to the bottom of the wave, can I just keep going right back to the whitewater? Oh yes, I can. Damn. Just keep going. Sometimes it doesn't work out. And if you blow that, you're doing the splits on the board. Now you've got a torn MCL. But you're going full throttle. And on that type of equipment, the form is important so that you don't botch it, because you really could get injured on some of these things. Probably someone who hears this is going to laugh and think, this is a joke, like you're being really hyperbolic, bro. Come on. It's just a mid-length and you're over water. Yeah, when you're pushing it really hard, it's thrilling and it's exciting, and it is difficult to do. And it's—I think it's really appealing to a lot of people. And then they, you know, they go and try and do it and say, man, I wish I could surf like Rob Machado on this thing. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, all the surfers—
**Devon Howard**
Take ten years.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, if not longer. I think all the surfers you mention and the way you talk about their surfing is—they're—can they stay connected? You know, that as they're going through the turns and in between turns, there's no radical gain or loss of speed. Right? So where they do the cutback isn't just a change of direction. It's in sync with that part of the wave, so they stay connected to the power source. So there's a certain—it's a radical maneuver, but the speed doesn't waver too much, whereas some surfers might jump up to the top and bust the fins, and they might slow right down and then fall back down into the wave and go again. And it looks good in photos and maybe gets judged well in a competition, but it's not necessarily—they're not as connected to the wave as other surfers.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah. And again, that's debatable. I'm sure there's other people who will feel opposite of that, and that's great. You know, surfing's subjective. Yeah. And, you know—and just to bring it back a little bit to competition if that's okay—I know lots of people don't care about surf competition, but it is where a lot of the best surfing's happening. It's where the high bar is, a lot of times. And in the 60s and 70s, style was just sort of—it wasn't like there was a style box that was ticked. It was sort of like this nice little cozy little wrapping around the surfing that was just a given, you know, so it didn't really need to be discussed. And then in the 80s—and probably really the late 70s—when the twin fin was really coming on with MR pushing that and Shaun Tomson and other people chasing him, they were packing in as many maneuvers as they possibly could into a ride to take away more points. And this isn't my own thought or original idea—I've read these things elsewhere—and I agree with this take, which is somewhere along the way, the beauty just sort of eroded because the focus is now—we're getting really fixated on number of maneuvers and this real technical aspect of the difficulty of the maneuvers.
**Devon Howard**
And surfing is already highly subjective. And you have this even more subjective thing—style. And some of them—maybe, correct me if I'm wrong—maybe there was a style element at some point. I'm not aware of it. Maybe there was. And so, anyways, the 80s kind of moves on, and there were clearly lots of stylish surfers. I mean, I grew up like many people my age—I'm 50—so I worshipped Tom Curren, and I loved Tom Carroll and a bunch of folks. There was lots of style, but there were also some people with some really hideous style, like Gary Elkerton and Damien Hardman and all these people. Nothing against them, man. I think they're all incredible surfers, but there were some hideous styles, and they crushed it in contests because they were just animals—like, lacerating, tearing it up. And because the broader culture is being driven by whatever media is being consumed, and the media at the time was really sort of swiveling and craning and watching what's going on in competition, because that's where the money's being plugged in. So those brands are like, hey, we validate this thing we're doing, which is competition surfing. And it just boiled down to, what do you got to do to win this thing? And if making it look beautiful was not ever important, why would you spend time doing that? Tom Curren couldn't help himself.
**Devon Howard**
He was stylish no matter what. But lots—lots of other surfers weren't, and they did very well. And so as the decade or two ensues, just the sort of broad mainstream viewpoint was that style just wasn't important. However, the people that were in the sort of the underground—your locals, people that sort of stuck to the fringe—and even the people that shortboarded as well obviously still kind of kept style alive. And the reason style always stayed alive is because the idea that human beings are drawn and attracted to beauty is as old as time, I think. I mean, who knows when that began. I had a really nice chat with David Scales on *Surf Splendor*, and we spoke about this there. So if you want to hear more about this, go check that out. I think it was a nice conversation. But I'll sort of reiterate some of the points. There was—I read an article by Scott Hewlett in *The Surfer's Journal*, and he wrote quite a bit about style. And he illustrated a point that I'd never considered. And he was sort of talking about this Greek artist—it was like 500 BC. I'm like, where is this thing going? Why are we talking about bronze sculptures? But he made a really brilliant point, which is—okay, why does style matter? Why do we keep talking about it? It's because beauty endures.
**Devon Howard**
It is a common theme in human nature. Now, in recent times, I'd say beauty is being abandoned. If you look at modern architecture in just about any town, everything looks like shit. So I don't know what's going on there. We used to make beautiful buildings, and now we're stopping doing it. We can't control that. But in surfing, we keep getting drawn back to this idea of beauty. Despite all those things that happened that we just talked about in the 80s and 90s—competition surfing and getting derailed—the broad culture still has always known instinctively that this is something we should never stop cherishing. We should never stop celebrating. And I think it's backed up by—if you go to any Torren Martyn video, go down to this thing below the screen that says "views." A lot of Torren Martyn videos have like a million plus views. Go over to Gabriel Medina or anyone—and I'm not picking on these people, just pick anybody—I’ll bet you right now that Torren is beating a lot of those surfers two or three or four to one in terms of views. Now, you could argue that, well, there's a lot more Gabriel Medina-type surfers, and there's not that many Torren Martyns. I'll give you that.
**Devon Howard**
But I think it's really because we are drawn to beauty. And so back to that *Surfer’s Journal* article, he said, imagine taking those Greek statues and putting a surfboard underneath them. And when I was done reading the article, I went and I googled "500 BC Greek statue," and I forget the artist's name—it’s a Greek name—and I was instantly like, huh, look at that. You just put a surfboard under these statues. And some of the form and posture was a little bit silly, but a lot of it was pretty spot on. And then you go right over to Gerry Lopez, or you go to Mikey February or somebody else, and you can see that there's a similarity to this idea of beauty. And then you go take it steps further—take it to any type of traditional dance. Have you ever seen ugly, poor form at any dance scenario where there’s, like, serious people—whether it’s ballroom or it’s swing or it’s foxtrot or it’s tango or it’s salsa—it’s just incredibly beautiful. And it’s this expression. The music is coming in, you’re viewing and watching and feeling the music—there’s that input—and the output is what these people are feeling. And so our output in surfing is that form and that expression. Bullfighters. Same thing.
**Michael Frampton**
Mhm.
**Devon Howard**
Now the bullfighters have a little more of a pose at the end. The bull’s coming in and the bull goes through the cape, and they kind of hold it and they sort of—it’s almost like a taunting of the bull, like, you didn’t kill me, and look how calm I am right here. And a lot of the surfers in the 50s and 60s—they really admired the bullfighters. There’s a great shot of Joey Cabell in Peru in the 60s. Guy’s never bullfought before, and he’s down there, and there’s pictures of him in the bull ring with a Hawaiian print shirt on and doing the whole full "Ole!" you know. And so this idea of style really is always going to matter and always be important to us, so long as we don’t ever abandon this attraction of ours to beauty. You know, we’re attracted to beautiful people. Clearly, that’s a given, right? But we’re really drawn to beautiful things—art, architecture, a wonderful garden, an unmolested landscape. And so I don’t think people really care to give too much thought about style.
**Devon Howard**
I think it's just sort of like I said—you know it when you see it. Does it really need to be talked about? But I think in the context of a podcast like yours, where people are trying to improve their surfing, having a real understanding that this isn't just for show—style isn't just to look cool. It's not like putting on a cool outfit to look cool. It's a real purpose-driven thing. Certain articles of clothing look great, but they also have a purpose. Maybe it has SPF in it. Maybe it's built for a particular activity to make it more comfortable. For us, as I was saying in the very beginning, the form—the style sort of follows the form. And if you really think about your form and you're relaxed and you're sort of paying attention to the things that you talk about on your podcast or where people get their information—there’s lots of different YouTube things, obviously—you too could have nice style if you so desire.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I 100% agree. Surfing is, first and foremost, an art form. Mhm. It's only within competition that it becomes a sport. And then, yes, sometimes we sacrifice a bit of style for progression, perhaps, as well as what's happening in windsurfing. It's a sport. I still think the best of the best—the best of the best can combine. Like John John—he's number one at the moment for a reason. Not just because he's progressive, but because he would do a progressive turn with calm style like no one else. Yeah. So I still have faith. I think there'll be the odd slip-up—you know, Toledo's frantic aerial maneuver that goes higher than everyone else—the judges kind of—they can't not score it, you know? So, you know, there'll be blips in the system—glitches in the matrix, per se—until the judges really start to consider style and make that a point, which hopefully, maybe one day, they will. I think it would make—I would make surfing more watchable.
**Devon Howard**
Well, they have done so in longboard surfing. Yes. Longboard surfing has a much smaller audience, obviously. But as I believe you and I talked about in the past—I think we did—I was at the WSL for a few years, and I worked on the longboard tour. And built into the criteria is the word "style." Also two other words—flow and grace. Style, flow, grace is in the criteria. And it's hard—a little difficult—to train the judges on it, you know? It's highly subjective. It's something—we could sit here for an hour breaking down style, flow, grace—it will still feel like we barely scratched the surface. Because it is highly subjective, just like art is, just like music is, just like food is, just like what kind of waves I like. Ah, it's just like that. It really can be difficult to put your finger on it. But the way we did the training to help these judges, if anyone cares to know this stuff, is have them really focus on somebody making something really difficult look easy. But also, at the same time, dealt with sight of the positioning of the wave or the difficulty of the maneuver. Because to the untrained eye, you could see someone doing a nose ride, and maybe they're doing something really—what you may think is beautiful—on the nose.
**Devon Howard**
Maybe their arms are held a certain way, it just looks kind of cool. But if you pay close attention, they're like ten feet in front of the pocket. And you're like, that’s not that hard to do. Mhm. So what helps is—in the other part of the criteria—is the degree of difficulty. That is part of it. So you're looking at the style, flow, and grace, but you're applying it to—are these surfers in the pocket? Is the surfer using their rail, or are they lifting the board out of the water? Because to lift the longboard out of the water and turn it is far easier than engaging the rail in the water and pushing it through a turn. That's much more difficult. And so it has been applied in longboard surfing. Let's see if we can—if anyone cares—we could try to do a campaign to get the shortboard tour to break more.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm with you. I'm with you. Ultimately, I do think it shines through, and the cream always rises to the top. But it would be nice if it was literally in the criteria, and it was considered by each surfer to be a worthy consideration. Coming back to form—let me—I'm going to share my screen with you. Let me—hopefully this works. Oh, shit. Did that work? Can you see my screen?
**Devon Howard**
I think so. Let me move my notes here a little bit. Oops. Too many things around here. I'm terrible at computer stuff. One second. So—where it is now? Okay, I can see it now.
**Michael Frampton**
So there's an example of a—you know, if that was placed on the nose of a longboard, it’d be quite cool.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah, it's pretty close.
**Michael Frampton**
But then also—so here's—you see on the left there is the way that a baby learns to stand. Now, because the infant is so weak, there’s only one way that they can learn to roll over and learn to stand up and hold themselves. Because their muscles are so weak, their bones have to be placed so accurately in order for them to be able to stand and move. And that’s how we learn—because of our weakness and our slow progression into strength—we learn the most efficient way possible. Now it’s the athletes that maintain that neurological efficiency that end up with the best form naturally—i.e. the way Kelly Slater’s standing there in those barrels. Not only is he standing in a very similar way to the infant there, he's also very calm and relaxed in that position.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah, I would definitely not be that calm in that—those waves.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. So it does come back to form. And it’s also—when an athlete is standing with their joints—in DNS, we call it "joint centration"—and that the bones are stacked on top of each other in a very efficient way, it just looks right. Not only does it look right, the way the forces are spread throughout the body—it doesn’t feel hard. Anyone who’s ever tried—if anyone has ever tried to skate a vert ramp, for example—a halfpipe—it feels like, oh man, my legs aren’t strong enough. How do people—and then you watch a 12-year-old just go up and down. They’re not doing it because their legs are stronger than yours. They’re not even doing it because they’re stronger relative to their body weight. They’re doing it because they’re stacking themselves. Their bones and their joints are centered properly, and the force is being transferred throughout their entire body through the center of the bone and into the skateboard. Whereas someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing—they’re trying to muscle their way through it. Not only does it feel terrible, it looks terrible. Yeah. So I agree with that. Yeah. So it does come back to efficiency. And you said, good style is that you know it when you see it. My question to you is—do you know it when you feel it?
**Devon Howard**
Yes. I believe so. I know—I’ve even had moments where I just didn’t feel like I was in the right form. It just didn’t—the turn didn’t feel good or the particular movement—maybe it’s a nose ride or something—didn’t feel great. And if you get a chance to be lucky enough to come across a video or a photo of that moment, you’re like, mm, yeah, that actually backs it up. It looks a bit awkward. It looks a bit off. So—and you definitely can feel good style because you like it—it’s all tethered to itself. It feels good. It looks good. And it sort of carries on the ride. It's like when you get off the very beginning of the ride and the first bottom turn is successful and your feet are in the right place—it really sets up the rest of the ride. If you botch that—let's say you screw it up getting to your feet or off the bottom—then you screw up the pace of the wave. So, yeah, I’ve had times where my feet were too far forward or back or whatever, or I hit a chop and my arms sort of waved a little bit, and then I got out of that rhythm. And that didn’t—that definitely didn’t feel good. And it certainly didn’t—because it looked like I was rolling up the windows as opposed to my arms being sort of down and going the direction that I want to be headed.
**Devon Howard**
A lot of times the front and the back hand oftentimes are going the direction you want to go. I find that to be very helpful, and that feels good to me because I feel really centered—or you’d say "stacked." I never thought of it that way, but—so yeah, I would agree. I would say you definitely—you definitely feel it. My own belief is—I don’t do anything in the style that I feel is what’s called contrived, where I’m trying to present a form of some kind that has a certain look. The form I have is really based off of function. And that’s because I watched the generation two ahead of me at waves like Windansea and Cardiff Reef. And I watched the elders, and I really watched closely what they were doing. How they were sinking down into the board. And I noticed that their hands—their fingers were never apart. Their hand gestures were sort of always in the direction of where their board and body was heading. It was like this stacking or centering. They kind of hunkered down, but they never looked stiff or scared or afraid of anything or timid. It was a very confident—almost like a martial artist, like a kung fu person or something—that has confidence in the form of that particular move.
**Devon Howard**
The really good surfers—the real standout surfers—I identified that pretty young, and I said, I want—I need to learn how to do that. So it was never a contrived thing like, I need to look good and look cool. I just knew that that was good surfing. And as a consequence of going through that, it also felt really good. It was like a good golf swing. I don’t golf at all, but I have friends who do, and I can understand how much work they put into that golf swing. And when they do that, clearly it looks good from a distance because they hit the ball and it goes right where they want it to go. So that’s pretty awesome. But they’ll tell you it feels good. Or baseball—if you’ve ever played baseball, you know the feeling of a home run. There’s a sound of the bat and the feel through the bat into your hands, and you feel it—the follow-through of the swing. You’re like, that ball is out of here. It’s pretty cool. Mhm. A reward to—not that it’s work—but there’s sort of like this payoff and a reward to the dedication that it took to learn that art form. Mhm.
**Michael Frampton**
But it always comes back to the feeling.
**Devon Howard**
It really does. Yeah. I didn’t—I haven’t put too much thought into the feeling piece of it. But yeah. You know, it’s disgusting and really dumb and shallow, but I’ve had moments where the ride didn’t feel good, and I didn’t even finish the wave. I was so not into the feeling—I just kicked out. I was like, I botched this thing so bad that someone else just needs to finish it. I just—I just kick out and I go back up to the top and kind of regroup and go, what just went wrong there? And then, you know, like, surfing—everyone surfs for different reasons too. Like, for some people, surfing is a couple times a month. It’s an escape for them. They don’t care if they surf well. That’s not what they’re there for.
**Michael Frampton**
Like they’re probably not listening to this, though.
**Devon Howard**
Probably not. And I’ve had people say, man, you look so serious when you’re surfing. I’m like, I’m pretty serious about it. Like, to me—it’s so strange—it’s serious fun. And as I’ve gotten older, I haven’t lost interest in it. It’s like a hunt to me. It’s really weird. And I don’t—I don’t know if it’s just some human thing of, like, the game and the chess moves and everything involved with observing patterns. I’ve observed patterns for decades, and now I see the patterns, and the benefit for me is I know which wave to pick. I know where to be. And by knowing that, I’ve set up the ride and therefore I’ve sort of predetermined this feeling that I’m after, which is—as I said—it’s highly addicting. Surfing—you’re never satiated. Why is that? You always want another one. You always want more. And—but all through this process—the hunt, the enjoying, understanding the patterns, the chasing, the moment, the feeling—there’s a tremendous sense of—there’s like a reward when all the elements have come together and you apply everything you’ve learned. It’s a really cool feeling. I think you could say that about a lot of things in life, whatever your craft is.
**Devon Howard**
And for me, surfing isn't just like some waste-of-time thing. Like, that's part of it. That's a bonus to me, like, hey, I'm not doing chores or I'm not at work. That's fantastic. I will take that. But it's also like a craft. It's a way I express myself. Some people do that through building things out of wood in their garage or a number of other things. So the style piece of it—it's just sort of come along with it. It never was like, I'm going to really think about this super duper hard. And you just—you learn through time that the style and the form, they sort of, like, are tied together, you know? And you kind of look at it this way, and then you go back and look at it the other way, and they really come together nicely. And if you fight them, you're not going to surf as well. If you're not surfing as well, you're not going to feel it as right. You won't feel that thing we just talked about. And then consequently—not that that many people care—but your surfing is going to be kind of ugly.
**Michael Frampton**
Thing is.
**Michael Frampton**
It'll—
**Michael Frampton**
Because when you are—when you're connected and you're efficient—it feels better. Simple as that. It feels better. If you close your eyes and just imagine, like, an image or a video section of someone who epitomizes style—are they—what are they feeling in the moment? Are they worried about what they look like? No. Are they scared? No. Are they putting in a ton of effort?
**Devon Howard**
I would say no.
**Michael Frampton**
It's in the—
**Devon Howard**
Moment. Yeah. There's probably a small number of people who—it's contrived. Like, you could go to Byron Bay—sorry, sorry, Byron Bay, I’m picking on you right now. You could go to Malibu. Pick your spot. Maybe Montego Bay. I don't know. Way inside there, there's going to be places where there are folks that—for whatever reason—this—well, like, who cares? There's no laws or rules. Like, I'm not mad about this. It's just—they're just observations. That's it. They're really controlled. It's just so contrived. They're sort of putting the form—or, I'm sorry, let me back up—they're putting the presentation ahead of the form. You know, they're worried about all the bells and whistles and the dressing, but at the core of all the ingredients going into making this beautiful thing, they've got it all wrong, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
You can always smell that though, I think.
**Devon Howard**
And it's a missed opportunity for them. Does it change my life or your life or anybody listening? You do you, man. Like, I'm very libertarian in that way. I don't really care. But we're on a podcast called *Surf Mastery*, so we're nerding out. And if you're here to get better, don't get caught up in the presentation. Get caught up in the form. The presentation is going to come along. And yeah, it's just like this beautiful byproduct. You shouldn't have to try to have good style. You should try to be good at surfing. And then once you have that confidence—you know, if you see a photo or catch a Surfline rewind, if you can see that far and you happen to notice that your hands are bent at the wrist and going in instead of out, or you happen to notice that your fingers are wide apart, you could pull them in and it looks better—but it also centers and stacks you. You start feeling more stacked over your board. And once you start doing that, your style just starts improving. And it's interesting that tube riding—this is what we talked about with David the other day, I think. Or maybe we didn’t—I can't remember—but someone I was talking to about it, it's interesting that almost all good tube riding has good style. Most of it. You rarely see someone with really hideous style getting a sick barrel.
**Michael Frampton**
So yeah, because the wave will hit them in the butt with their poor stance. They just don’t—they don’t fit, and they’re ugly.
**Devon Howard**
Yeah, I think it's true. There’s a lesson there that can be applied to other maneuvers. But it’s not always true that good tube style now equates to this beautiful style on the face. You’ll see when it doesn’t fall apart. Why is that? I don’t know exactly. Maybe the—I think one thing that could help with style from a technique standpoint is—don’t rush your surfing. I’ve noticed, like, folks that—remember we were talking earlier about breaking trim and seeing people that are trying to wiggle—they’re sort of swaying. A lot of times, it’s the upper body that’s swaying when that’s not really helping them in any way. It’s not benefiting the ride. It’s causing the board to lift out of the water in side-to-side motion, typically. And now you’re breaking the trim. Now in a shortboard, a shortboard needs to be side to side, but it’s also got to be pushed so that it’s building momentum in a forward fashion. The people that are not very good are kind of not going anywhere because they don’t understand that. They’re just sort of wiggling their arms and breaking the trim.
**Devon Howard**
And I think if you just—yeah, just think about being a little bit more quiet. And being a little bit more quiet means you’re not in a big hurry. Like, if you're not at a level where you need to try to get eight maneuvers in the wave—don’t do it. Take your time and get two really nice maneuvers, and those will feel really good. Be patient off the bottom. When you—let's start from the beginning—you go and you paddle in, you go to do a bottom turn—just be there in that moment with that bottom turn. Don’t be thinking about the four moves you want to do down the line. Because now it becomes this rush. You’re hurrying up the surfing, and now you’re kind of screwing up the pace of the ride. You’re screwing up the pace of the wave. And when you do that, now you’re out of sync. When you’re out of sync, it doesn’t feel or look good. So I think the best advice to—how do I get good style?—start with the form and don’t rush your surfing.
**Devon Howard**
Don’t try to contrive it. Don’t try to—like, I’m going to have—make sure my hands are up here and I’ll go like this and I’m looking backwards and going, okay, that’s cool. You do you. But you know, that’s not helping you surf better.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah. You can be quick without being rushed.
**Devon Howard**
Exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
Like a drummer that’s drumming at 160 beats per minute—if they’re ahead of the beat slightly, it sounds rushed. But if they’re on the beat, it’s in time. It’s rhythm. And they’re nice and relaxed. They’re still fast—they’re just not rushed, utterly. And it’s interesting you mentioned, like, the hands curled in like this. If your hands are curled in like this, you will feel scared. Your physiology affects your emotions. That’s a scared posture. That’s a protective posture. So if you forcefully open up your hands—like Tony Robbins says—stand up tall and straight and relaxed, you will feel better. If you force yourself to smile, you will feel better inside. So I think that, you know, a bit of video analysis and analyzing your own style can actually—and changing it—can actually make surfing feel better as well. But I love those tips you just said, and it was a good summary and it's a great place to end. Devon, thank you so much.
**Devon Howard**
All right. I hope we made some sense there. It's fun to talk about it, because I've felt this stuff for a long time, but I don’t really ever talk about it. And it’s only just in recent times. And I gotta thank Scott Hewlett from *The Surfer's Journal* for getting the gears going in my mind of how to think about this stuff. It's fun to share it, so I hope people get some value out of this conversation.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, if you come up with more thoughts on it, let me know. We'll get you back on and we'll expand, because it’s an important topic.
**Devon Howard**
Well, we’re in the middle of some fin placement on a mid-length, so I gotta get back down there. I also got this dust down here.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Thanks, Devon. I’ll let you—right—you get back to it.
**Devon Howard**
All right. Thank you, Michael. See you.

The Hidden Techniques to Perfect Your Surfing Style with Devon Howard
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**99 Rod Perez - Holistic Health Practices for Surf Wellness** Jul 17, 2024

Still trying to surf hard while your body says otherwise? What if the real secret to surfing stronger with age isn't more power—but smarter recovery and movement?
In this conversation with renowned surf performance coach Rod Perez, we break down the truth about sustainable surf fitness. From mobility to mindset, Rod shares insights from decades of coaching elite athletes (including Joel Parkinson) and working with everyday surfers who want to feel good in the water again—not just grind in the gym.
Learn how to bulletproof your knees, hips, and back with training strategies surfers over 35 *actually* need
Discover why most “fit” surfers are missing the endurance and mobility they truly need for better surfing
Understand how Japanese samurai philosophy can help you live—and surf—with more purpose, energy, and gratitude
Hit play now to learn how to extend your surfing years and unlock better sessions through smarter body and mind practices.
**Follow Rod Pererz :** Website:rodperez.com & Instagram: holisticprohealth
**Follow Michael John Frampton:** Instagram: surf mastery & Website:https://surfmastery.com/.
**Key Points**
Rodrigo Perez discussed working with Joel Parkinson and helping him transition to a different phase of life, emphasizing the importance of training, sleep, and health.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of mobility and capacity in training, particularly for surfers, noting that many people lack these aspects in their fitness routines.
Rodrigo Perez highlighted the benefits of recovery techniques such as ice baths and saunas, stressing that proper recovery is often neglected but crucial for preventing joint problems and osteoporosis.
Rodrigo Perez discussed the use of advanced recovery techniques like stem cells and peptides, noting their effectiveness in helping clients recover from injuries.
Rodrigo Perez shared insights on the common ailments among aging surfers, such as lower back problems and hip rotation issues, and the importance of sustainable training practices.
Rodrigo Perez discussed his book 'The Art of Longevity,' inspired by his clients' back problems and his own experiences, aiming to provide a holistic guide for mind and body wellness.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of basics like proper diet, exercise, and recovery over advanced supplements or genetic modifications for longevity.
Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of Japanese philosophy and traditions on his approach to health and wellness, highlighting the simplicity and discipline of the samurai lifestyle.
**Outline**
**Introduction and Background**
Michael Frampton introduced the Surf Mastery Podcast and mentioned a new website, surfmastery.com, with a free download of top five tips.
Rodrigo Perez, the guest, has released a new book titled 'The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness'.
Rodrigo Perez is a professional coach and founder of Holistic Pro Health Performance, having worked with successful athletes.
Joel Parkinson provided a quote about Rodrigo Perez's help in transitioning to future goals.
Michael Frampton mentioned attending one of Rodrigo Perez's courses in 2016 and being impressed with their knowledge and presence.
**Professional Collaborations and Retreats**
Rodrigo Perez and Michael Hintala presented together in California in 2019.
Rodrigo Perez worked with Ricardo Christie to help him return to the tour.
Rodrigo Perez is currently working with the new generation of surfers, including Canadian and Japanese surfers.
Rodrigo Perez and Tom have been running retreats together, despite challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic and Tom's hip surgery.
**Dealing with Knee Injuries and Osteoarthritis**
Michael Frampton discussed Tom's knee replacement and their shared experience with ACL reconstruction leading to osteoarthritis.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of proper training, stabilization, and recovery to manage knee injuries and osteoarthritis.
Rodrigo Perez highlighted the need for a balanced approach to training, including non-impact exercises, and the use of recovery methods like ice baths and saunas.
Rodrigo Perez mentioned the use of advanced recovery techniques such as stem cells and peptides for some clients.
**Training and Mobility for Surfers**
Rodrigo Perez discussed the importance of mobility and capacity in training for surfers, particularly for those looking to improve their technique and endurance.
Rodrigo Perez defined mobility as the ability to move the body in different planes with strength, not just flexibility.
Rodrigo Perez recommended increasing the number of reps in training to improve endurance and capacity.
Rodrigo Perez noted that many surfers, especially those aged 35 to 60, seek help for injuries and pain, often due to overtraining and lack of proper recovery.
**Case Study: Joel Parkinson**
Rodrigo Perez discussed working with Joel Parkinson, who had an MCL injury and needed to adjust his training approach.
Joel Parkinson lost weight and regained his surfing potential, winning competitions after working with Rodrigo Perez.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of educating surfers on sustainable training practices and maintaining a love for surfing.
**Rodrigo Perez's Surfing Journey**
Rodrigo Perez started surfing in 1999, initially bodyboarding before transitioning to surfboards.
Rodrigo Perez has been improving their surfing skills over the years, particularly with the help of Tom and other students.
Rodrigo Perez enjoys learning about different surfboards and adapting their surfing style to various ocean conditions.
**Inspiration Behind 'The Art of Longevity'**
Rodrigo Perez was inspired to write 'The Art of Longevity' by their mother's back problems and the prevalence of back issues among clients.
The book aims to provide practical, science-backed tips for total mind and body wellness, drawing from Rodrigo Perez's 25 years of experience.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle, including proper training, nutrition, and mindset, to achieve longevity in surfing and life.
**Samurai Philosophy and Lifestyle**
Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of samurai philosophy on their approach to life and wellness.
Rodrigo Perez highlighted the discipline, simplicity, and gratitude inherent in the samurai lifestyle.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of maintaining a positive energy level, healthy habits, and a balanced approach to diet and exercise.
**Book Chapter: 'Life of a Samurai'**
Rodrigo Perez chose the chapter 'Life of a Samurai' as the one to spread to the world, as it encapsulates the essence of the book.
The chapter discusses the disciplined lifestyle of the samurai, including their approach to diet, meditation, and daily routines.
Rodrigo Perez believes that adopting elements of the samurai lifestyle can lead to greater happiness and fulfillment.
**Japanese Culture and Longevity**
Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of Japanese culture on their understanding of longevity and wellness.
Rodrigo Perez highlighted the traditional practices, social structures, and clean environment in Japan that contribute to longevity.
Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of simple habits, such as early morning routines and daily exercise, in maintaining a healthy lifestyle.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. If you're a fan of the show and haven't subscribed yet, please do. One of the best ways you can help grow the show is to share an episode with a friend. I have released a new website, same address, surfmastery.com, and there is a free download for the top five tips from the show, so if you haven't done that, go ahead and do that. There'll be a link in the show notes, or just go to surfmastery.com and it's there on the front page. Today's guest is Rodrigo Perez. He's just released a new book, here it is here. If you're watching on YouTube you can see that. For those listening, it's called *The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness.* And I'm gonna read from the back for a quick and dirty bio of Rod. Rodrigo Perez is a professional coach and founder of Holistic Pro Health Performance and has worked with some of the world's most successful athletes. *The Art of Longevity* draws on everything he's learned along his own journey with one aim: helping people live the lives they've imagined. And let me read, here's a good little quote from Joel Parkinson – I'm not sure if he's a current or former client of Rod’s. I'll read his quote that he put in the first thing you see in this book actually. “As a former pro surfer, training has always been an integral part of my career, and in this next stage of my life, Rod has helped me to transition to where I want to be for the future. I want to be ripping in my 60s.” Well, so do I. And exercising outside of surfing and looking after your sleep and your health and all that stuff is an important part of that. And sadly, there's a lot of... What I like about this book is it condenses it down into just simple, practical, science-backed tips that you can... yeah, just a quick and dirty—well, it's not that quick, it's actually pretty comprehensive, this book. And I actually did a course—gosh, it would have been back in 2016, I think, when I was up in the Gold Coast. I did one of Rod's courses and I was impressed with him and his knowledge and his presence as a coach as well. Anyway, without further ado, here is my conversation with Rodrigo Perez. Anyway, it's nice to see you again. I don't know if you remember, I came to one of your courses. Gosh, it would have been 12 years ago, maybe.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yes, 12 years ago, and then I remember in 2019 as well I saw you in California. It was presented together with Michael Rintala.
**Michael Frampton**
Rintala, that's right. That's right. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah, I remember that first time I met you and I did your course, Ricardo Christie came in and did a little talk. I think you were working with him at the time.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah. Yeah, we were working to make him come back to the tour and he made it back that year. That's right. So we've been working together at that time. We were working together for two years—persistence and changes in mindset and vision and beliefs, like things that he wasn't doing and stuff. Things that he was rejecting to do but ended up doing. And in some comps he didn't want to go for, 3,000 ones, and then he went to one of them and he won, and that's what made him, like, get back.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And you've worked with a lot of pros over the years.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yes. I'm pretty grateful for that. And even being... it's interesting because even now, I'm still working with the new generation. It's very interesting now, being working with a Canadian girl, Erin, being working with the new Japanese generation. They've been surfing amazing. TC said hello to you.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I see you've been doing some—well, last time I spoke with Tom, he said that you guys have been running retreats together.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, so I was on the phone maybe an hour and a half ago and then we chatted and he's got a busy road. I said I'm gonna jump on the Loom with Michael and he said hello to Michael. Yeah, we've been doing a lot of stuff together. We're building now, building something new for everyone. It's been good. Like, I think we just started at the wrong time and a good time because it was straight away during COVID. Yeah, had a lot of competitions in 2020, and in 2021 it was too hard to run the retreats. We still pushed, we had a few retreats—jump the fence to do the retreats, isolate, don't let people know—but yeah, it was cool. And he had a couple of injuries as well. We had to stop—like last year, we had to stop for six, seven months because he had a hip surgery. We've been working a lot on his rehabilitation. He's getting back, and he's getting back to the water, been surfing better now, and starting to connect everything back. And yeah, this year was great. Looking forward to start to push a bit more.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Yeah, actually recently Tom had his knee replacement. Well, you know Tom's story about his knee. I'll run through it quickly. He had ACL reconstruction back when he was 16, and that basically predisposes you to osteoarthritis later on in life. And a similar thing happened to me. I had my ACL reconstruction when I was 21, and now, just late last year, I went in and—one day my knee just blew up and I thought, no, what? And I hadn't done anything to it. Anyway, I went in to see the specialist and now it's bone on bone now, and sadly... yeah. So I'm going through that at the moment. But that leads me into the question. I think there's a lot of surfers that maybe they haven't had ACL knee surgery, but surfing is notoriously hard on the knees. And osteoarthritis is a common... it's a common thing amongst surfers. How do you approach dealing with that particular injury?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Well, like, a lot of stuff that can come in behind the structure. I know when we talk about our age, or when you are 20 years old, and how much training you've done at the time—or the right training—the stabilization. A lot of people focus too much on compounding exercises all the time: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and deep pulls. And at the end of the day, like, we needed a lot of other things behind. And then when approaching situations like that, like present, or you talk about Tom and your situation—his hips got a lot of problems because his knees now, he's ended up... So he had a full tear, and then glute med, and he had a full tear, like pretty much the tendon of the gluteal medius pulled out of the bone. So he had to reattach and stitch up the gluteus. So things like that—for me it's just one comment after the other—because he didn’t have, he doesn’t have much stability on the right knee where the process is there now, and then probably that’s the main goal and keep it constant training. Now unfortunately, like as a type of one, you keep frothing for life, but if you mess up your training—I know—you have to think. So a surfer's pumping whole week, and you get this mojo and a surfer’s every day. You forget about the training. You're just doing a little bit of stretch to recover. And you forget about the activation and the strength area. And that's probably—if you let go—sometimes you let go for three weeks, four weeks. And you know it's hard to gain strength. Very easy to lose. The body can switch on pretty quick. No. So situations like that, we definitely need to see. Do you have any history on your ankle? Same side?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, a little bit.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, so that usually is like that. Whoever has ACL, they have a lot of history on the ankle on the same side, and then it really can bring up to the hip. So it's something we have to work our way around. What helps it? The best thing we can do is just eat well. Keep the training up. No, and don't forget about the recovery. We never spoke about—like no one talks about recovery—but recovery is a big thing today. Ice baths, saunas, any kind of thing where you can recover. And I think that's the main part, because we have the tendency to hit. And then we hit 85%, 90%, and then we usually recover only 10%. So all these things can hit pretty hard, like osteoporosis and joint problems, because we don't recover enough.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned... Doing the non-impact stuff was big for me. Basically, I'm lucky enough—I know after I had met you and Rintala back in Huntington Beach, I ended up doing the DNS courses. And last year when I was having trouble with my knee, it was simply because I wasn't—I wasn't keeping up with my training. I think that's all it was. And now I'm back into doing those stabilization exercises. And back on good recovery protocols. And now it's—obviously the cartilage doesn't grow back, but there is scar tissue that grows over the bone. And as long as you don't do too many hours on that scar tissue, you can... You can keep them from—.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Inflammation down. And unfortunately, it's like that when you get in that stage. It's going to leave you with it, but you have to be smart. No, nothing will change there. You just have to be smart to get it better. But like people are using stem cells today now, so they're using peptides around there as well to help with the recovery. It's not wrong—it's another tool we can use. Now, some people can do it very well. I have a couple of clients—they've done it on the knee, they've done it on the big toes, they've done the spine. They're feeling amazing. Shani Doran has done it on the whole body, and in his reports, he's very good. The other day, I exchanged a text with him asking, and yeah, he's feeling really good. So it's just the tools we put in together. Now, even I've been chatting with Kelly. I'm probably catching up with him this week to check out his hip. But as I remember, maybe it's the same. He put his block in J-Bay. So here we go, we want to put everything together. And I remember when he broke or hurt his foot—we met each other in France. I was in France and I mentioned to him straight away, have you been doing some mobility work? Have you been doing some single leg work or not? He just—he loves yoga, he loves to be stretched. Now, Kelly is a big believer in opening a lot of length, being very open. I'm agree with that—as a surfer, we need these lengths to be open. We need to reach more, we need to get a better range, but we need nice toned mass as well. Or even as we get older, we need just tonification. Like, we need big quads, we need a big gluteus, it's like that. That's pretty much what I told Tom the other day. I said, "Tom, you know what? You're gonna have to come back to how you used to be 10, 15 years ago. Now, bulking up." "Really, Rod?" "Yeah, you need bulking up." Now, bulking up in the right way. Switch on all the joints, get more muscles around, because that's the problem—when we hit our 50s, with the tendency of hormone levels dropping, it's very hard to maintain the muscle density around the bone. So we need to work in that way. We push a little bit on the activation, but bring a little bit of hypertrophy together. Because otherwise, definitely as we get older, we don't have to be heavier—the light is better—but we need nice toned muscles around, be bulky.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And is that just through your standard, you know, squats, things like that, but obviously you want to do them nice and slow and controlled, especially for that age group. Yeah. Yeah.
**Rodrigo Perez**
So, work on an eccentric phase. So, the negative phase—slow control. Now, when we talk about Mike Rintala, we talk about DNS. We have the motor control—work on the motor control, make sure we have all the joint centration so that the body can move better. And that’s the main part. And beside that, you can combine—that’s where we combine all the training together. Now you can have a bit of hypertrophy together with mobility work and neuromuscular work. I know a lot of people don’t do it. A lot of people have tendencies to just do one thing or just do other things. And sometimes it has to mix and have the experience—if you know, or know someone who knows, can advise you how to do it. But putting things together is the best.
**Michael Frampton**
So you've worked with a lot of surfers at all levels, right? So you obviously work with a handful of pros—some we've already mentioned—but you're serving the general public and around your area on the Gold Coast, correct?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Coolangatta. Yeah. So what's—and I know that you work with other athletes as well—but let's... what's... is there... what is it specifically that non-pro surfers need more than others?
**Rodrigo Perez**
They need to be in the water more. If they want to improve, therapy—no, that's no doubt. Technique—you develop when you practice.
**Michael Frampton**
What about in terms of your area of expertise, like training and stuff? The body—training.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Definitely, a big thing is what I find—the majority of people—mobility is a big one. So, movement patterns, too, need a lot of improvement. That’s a long time when you're doing a workshop, even with the years watching everyone doing the movements developed. And then, to improve the myofascia, to improve the hip mobility, to improve ankle mobility—it’s a big one. Our sole capacity—that’s, I think, a lot of people are very weak. They lift heavy weights, they have training, but they don't have capacity. That's when we talk about the endurance muscle. And that’s the main muscle we need for surfing. For sure, we need strength, we need the activation for the core, but capacity is pretty poor. So, movement development and capacity are the big ones.
**Michael Frampton**
Anyway, how do you define mobility?
**Rodrigo Perez**
How I define mobility? Mobility for me is the body can move in different planes and you get stronger in different planes. People have the tendency to be stretched, but mobility is not a stretch. So mobility, when you're training your body, you're able to develop a better range of motion of your joints. But it's not only developing a better range of motion—it's improving your strength in different areas. Like, simple thing: can you squat deeper? Can you hold your squat deeper there? Are you strong in the position? No, it doesn't matter if you improve so much more mobility, but you're not strong in the position because you don't keep repeating there. So, yeah, that defines mobility: you strengthen your body in different planes—the planes you’ve never been, or your body has never been. Because that's the thing—like a lot of beginners or intermediate surfers—like when we talk about it, talk about bottom turn—they cannot squat deep, they cannot drop as low because the mechanism, when the brain doesn’t land—there’s lack of mobility or lack of capacity to be able to drop a bit more.
**Michael Frampton**
So mobility isn't just about flexibility. It's about functional range of motion.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay. And when you say capacity—let's say you've got someone who does a little bit of training, they do a little bit of stretching, and they do a little bit of the standard stuff in the gym. They're probably doing three sets, 10 to 12 reps. Is that enough to increase capacity?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Should do a little bit more. Depending on which movement, depending what they are like.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So, is there a range—like looking to 12 reps to up to 15 reps?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, increase their reps. That will help. So when we talk about capacity, that’s when we hit more endurance phase. And that’s what we’re looking to. Because sometimes 10–12 reps—we're going for adaptation. Now, you need to pass the adaptation. That’s why we talk about 15 reps, sometimes 20 reps. That’s when the endurance muscles start to activate more.
**Michael Frampton**
With the general population of surfers in your area—once they get a bit older and they’re injured and they’re in pain—I’m assuming that’s usually when things... that’s usually when people seek help. What are the most common ailments that demographic is coming to you with? The aging surfer?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Look, it’s very interesting because we have the classes and the variation of the classes is between 17 to up to 35 years old—majority males. I think the majority of males, they have a lot of problems or they are beginner to intermediate surfers—they want to improve, be able to paddle better, they have to understand how to do the pop-up, how the body flows inside. When I'm talking about the private—my private general—is between, say, 35 to up to 60 years old. That’s the age coming up. Like, I have Joel Parkinson, who works with me full time. He has been with me since July last year. And Joel is in this phase. He had an MCL injury last year—March last year. We’d say no full tear—apparently, he had just a couple little lines of the ligament that was holding there—no surgery. But we needed to work on the right way because Joel was doing so much high-intensity training. Group classes sometimes with friends. And then, his training during the tour was a lot of endurance. You can see a lot of athletes being over-fatigued all the time. And as you get older, injuries start to knock on the door more and more. So for Joel, it was just about bringing him back to the water. And bringing him back to the water was healing his MCL—making sure he’s losing weight as well. So for them, as a retirement time, giving up everything, slowing down surfing, or getting a bit disappointed because of the injury, they have to bring back the full potential again. That’s what happens with the majority of them. Not even just talking about Joel, but the other people who come to see me—because they’re into the business so much, they're very wealthy, very successful in business—developers, construction company—but they cannot bend anymore. They have lower back problems, shoulder problems, very tired spine. The spine doesn’t move properly anymore. And when we talk about hip rotation, they can't even do a proper external rotation. So that’s the main part we work on. I try to approach all these areas and make sure all the training they’re doing has a lot of sustainability behind it. Like Joel—he lost probably nearly 12 kilos from August to now. Now he's a full potential surfer again. He’s done, I think, three finals comps in the last seven months and won the comps—Maldives, he won. He had three comps—he won all three. Here back in Gold Coast—Single Fin—he got second. And here, I think the board riders competition—he got second. So, he’s back into it now. He’s very glad he’s been on the program and the amount of weight he lost, and he’s pretty much got back to the same weight he used to compete in before. We try to educate students—all everyone’s in that age between 35, 38 to 55, 60. We lost so much—they need to get very well educated again. Between the way they treat themselves, the way they should put priorities into their routine to keep being able to surf for life. And that’s what people end up saying now. Like, “I have my bank full of money. I’ve done my life.” But no, you haven’t. If you let that go, you lose the most important thing for you—surfing. A few of them are even depressed because even if they go for paddling, they know how to surf, but they cannot last long. Probably 30 minutes in the water, an hour.
**Michael Frampton**
Joel is one of my favorite surfers. So smooth and stylish.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Beautiful. Love the carves.
**Michael Frampton**
His surfing style—being very smooth, very graceful, and controlled. Do you see similarities in the way that he moves in the gym?
**Rodrigo Perez**
He's getting better, let's say. Not really, because I think he used to be very educated on fast pace of training. I'm thinking not only him, but I believe like Mick and the other ones. At the time, the trainers were pushing very high intensity. They had to be tough with the pain. That's pretty much what they were putting into it—getting tough with the pain—but he's gotten way better now. He's doing very well with slow. He understands motor control now. So we needed a year together. And yeah. But I can see why he's so smooth—because he's a froth master. He loves surf so much. He loves the lines, he loves the wave. When he's surfing, he just... we talk a hundred percent about surfing now. What's with the surfboard and how they move, the stability about it. So Joel didn't have much body control, all right? So now he has a lot. And that was a big problem—why his injury, the body started breaking. You know—lower back, knee, back and all that stuff. And he even turned to me and said, "Rod, wow. Why didn't I know this when I was competing?" So he said, "Well, it would have been much better than what I’ve done the way you push me here." But it's everything divided. Whatever we're doing there, it's all divided by what they need. And we should be doing a little bit of high intensity—one and a half times a week—to get the heart rate up, because that's part of longevity. Now, it's not just about correcting—it's about connecting. We have the cardiovascular happening, we have the high intensity, one and a half times, everything very well balanced.
**Michael Frampton**
When did you start surfing?
**Rodrigo Perez**
It's a pretty funny story. I started surfing in 1999—five or six? But I was just bodyboarding. I never wanted to... like, I started surfboarding, I had an accident, I gave up. I started bodyboarding and I stuck a lot with bodyboarding. I moved to Australia, I was bodyboarding here. I loved big waves, big barrels. Early on, when it was big, it was good. Then in 2005–06, I decided to move down here in Coolangatta and surf the banks. And probably 2007–08, I sold the bodyboards—too boring to surf the points—I really wanted to surf on the surfboard. So I started surfing with a longboard in 2008, cruising, learning, improving. Probably by 2010–11, I decided to give up the longboard. But the longboard was probably an 8-footer, maybe like a mid-length. At that time we called it a longboard—today we call it a mid-length. Now it's 6'6", 8-footer. At the time, well, that's a small longboard, that's a longboard—but now everyone's calling it a mid-length board. And then from there, I said, "You know what? I don't want these boards anymore," and I switched it up. Pretty much in love with twin fins now—that's what I ride most of the time. Wherever I'm going, I try to learn so much about twin fins. And then probably since 2018, I've been hanging a lot with Tom, so I've been learning a lot about boards, how to put it together. Things change really—the ocean, you know—and plus I think hanging with my own students because I had different students, they are surf coaches—like Jay Bottle. Now, even did a lot of stuff with Brad Gerlach, and getting a little bit of pieces with each other. Now I understand timing and stance, reading, where to sit. And I think I'm very happy with my surf for probably the last three years. So much improvement. And then it’s the interest. I think it was yesterday or two days ago, I said, "Wow, I'm getting older, I'm getting better." Awesome. And that's the cool thing—I'm getting better fast, I'm slowly improving on the board, choosing for which ocean it is. Even like this morning, I did some training. I just wanted to drive around to check out how to surf. I knew it was small, but I saw D'bah. D'bah was pumping, but low tide. I said, "I'm not going to go." Then I saw a friend—"Let’s go quick." But I said, "I don't have a board. I just have a mid-length." I said, "You know what? Let’s go mid-length." So it was another lesson—how the mid-length could work in a hollow wave. Have to take off faster, to put it down inside the barrel—how they could support that. And I found out—yeah, it's not a board for this. Not in a beach break. Could be in a point break—big, hollow—like Greenmount, Snapper, Rainbow—it’d work very well. But yeah. It's fun. So I think it's a big Bible. As you know, surf is always a big Bible. We always have to be open to learning every single day. And every time I see Tom, I say, "Tom, how about this board? What do you think about this board? Have you tried that one?" And he said, "No, I tried this one. You’re into this board?" "Okay." So yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So getting better as you age—that's good to hear. Now, you've written a book called *The Art of Longevity.* What inspired you to write that?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Everything. No, like big explanation for sure. My mom—why she didn’t have much information, the way she ended up... My back problems I had before, and then how many people have back problems. A lot of my clients—surfers—had back problems. How many? Like today, probably every 100 people, 90 people have bulging discs in the back. And they don't know how to deal, or they’re just taking Panadol and thinking they're fine—but no, it's not fine. And that’s a restriction you’re going to have there for life. And if you let it go, it gets very tight and gets worse. I think that's all the inspiration—a lot of interest together with Tom as well. His journey through his injuries, helping him out as well—with all his shoulder, hip, and knee on this journey together. And seeing how a lot of people are lost. A lot of people are lost—where are they going to? And sometimes it has to be simple. You know, the formula is at the front, but I know it’s hard to do it. And then at the end of the day, if you don’t do it, no one’s going to do it for you. You're just going to make it worse. And it’s the dream coming together—because that was my goal, my dream—to have my own book one day. The idea was, say, "Well, when I pass my 50s, I will have enough knowledge and do it." But the opportunity came earlier. And then they turned to me and said—the publisher—"Would there be interest? Would you?" And I said, "Wow." To put your workshops—because the workshops is what it’s all about. That’s what me and Tom are driving with the workshops now. And I said, "Yeah, I’m keen to do it. I’m ready." Because I have the notes, I have the subject, I have the titles. I said, "Yeah, let me just put the content and let’s do it. I’m happy." So I think my clientele and my 25 years of experience working with people—this was the big experience to see what did happen. And as you mentioned, not working with the normal clients, but working with the athletes. Now, in the many years when I was working with the athletes—everyone should have this plan. Because at the end of the day, we all are athletes. We’re athletes for life. We’re dealing with stress. We get up in the morning, we have to look after the kids, we have to go to work, we need to bring money home, and we smash the body. At the end of the day, if you have time, you can go for a surf or you can go for training. But if you don't do it properly and don't have enough energy, you start to break. And as humans, a lot of people have this mentality—they say, "I'm getting older, I don't need to surf anymore. I'm getting older, I deserve to have a beer belly. I made my life, it's gone, I don't surf anymore." That’s what I hear sometimes. I say, "Nah. No way. You should be frothing. You should be happy all the time." And then I know a lot of people probably sometimes end up putting the board in the sun and doing parties with friends and drinking—they think they are happy. But at the end of the day, it’s just when they go for the surf trip, the swell is up—even if the swell is up, not even big, like two, three foot on the points—they're not able to catch anything. "Yeah, I don’t want this anymore. No, I’m too old for that." I say, "How old are you?" "I’m 40." I say, "What? Man, I’m 47. My surf’s getting better. I’m still looking for waves I want to go." Definitely, probably like—we don’t need to put ourselves on a big, very hollow, dangerous wave if we don't have high skills for those types of waves. But life is beautiful. You should do it. So that’s communication.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I mean, Skip Frye is still surfing every day and he’s in his 80s. So yeah, it's certainly possible. I mean, and obviously, you know, Kelly Slater keeps pushing the boundaries of what’s possible—into your 50s now.
**Rodrigo Perez**
And he's going to be there. And then what to do with Kelly—but that’s the big cool thing about Kelly. He really put the seeds in from the beginning. The way he treated his whole life, how he looks after himself. And definitely his mindset was strong. And one thing I learned with Tom—and probably coming from Kelly as well—it’s like Tom says, "I don’t hang with the olds. I love to hang with the young. The old ones just whinge all the time." So, keep your mind fresh and always open to learning anything—learning to sing, learning to play a guitar, play piano, read books. A lot of people don’t even read a book. So things like that improve—from the brain to the whole body. And that’s, I think, for me what it was about. All the doctors—what they talk about longevity these days—they're going too much technical. And a lot of surfers, a lot of us, don’t understand the technical part. They read, they say, "Pretty cool, I read this book from this doctor, that doctor—they talk about this path." What does that mean? So the goal was just bringing the book as simple and understandable. What people can take for life and keep it on top of the table for everyday—have a checkpoint and a good session of training as well. If they fall on a good session of cardio, good morning routine, or good night routine—seeing how they can train themselves. So it was a dream come true. And a terrific one for me—it was kind of like getting the world title.
**Michael Frampton**
You know, I love the title. And I’ve had a good flick through the book and it’s very holistic. And it’s just sort of a bit of everything, and this... just what you need to know sort of thing. I guess—is it the type of book you wish you had when you were 20? Is that what it is?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah. Yeah. And for the older points as well, you know—like for everyone—you still can do a lot of stuff now. And that was the goal: open for everyone, and for females as well. Sometimes we talk a lot about purpose, but we cannot forget about the surfing girls. They are very open. They want to learn. They are more into the body than the males. But the surfer female community is growing. And a lot of them, they want to be there surfing, they want to be able to paddle better, to take more waves—but missing a little bit more motivation. For them, may have someone to be there and give them a hand—"Hey, let's go."
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, and you're right about the... there's a lot going on in the longevity world with people, you know, doing all sorts of genetic modification and all the fancy supplements and stuff. But really, none of that stuff does anything unless you have the basics right anyway.
**Rodrigo Perez**
That's true. I think the other day I put it on my Instagram and said to people, "Doesn't matter if you take any supplements—you can take peptides, you can take whatever you want—but if somebody didn’t do the work behind there, nothing's going to happen." Now, is it something like Panadol? Does it matter what you're doing, or if you want pain relief, or you're taking these peptides to heal your shoulder? Yeah, but if you're not doing the physio, if you're not doing the exercise—whatever it is—if you're not going to do a soft tissue release or doing some manipulation or doing a sauna... nah, doesn't help. Yeah, it's a bit complex. And then, like, you probably have massive experience because you lived in the US for a long time. And then you're back in New Zealand now. And we’re pretty much—we’re very special here because we’re in a special country: New Zealand, Australia. We can still breathe pure air, we can drive without too much traffic, we can put ourselves close to nature. It's totally different from how it’s going, probably, in California, LA, and all that area.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. It's very different here. I do miss the weather in California, though.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Okay. Well, you need to see it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and where you are has amazing weather too as well.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, it is. I love this time of year. People say to me April, May, June are the three best months here on the East Coast—between, I would say, Gold Coast, even down Crescent Head. Even a bit colder down there, but I think it's the best time to surf: good waves, offshore all the time. It’s not too hot. Yeah, it’s a good environment—not many school holidays or many competitions. Well, we have the contest right now, it's been pretty busy around, but it's pretty fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Now, if you could only choose one chapter of your book to spread to the world, which chapter would that be and why?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Wow, there’s so many, but probably let's go with *The Life of a Samurai.* Probably that’s the last chapter. It's a little bit of a digestion of the other chapters, but people can understand a little bit more. That's the big one. I think it’s samurai life—understanding how they take their life, how Japanese life takes their own life. How they’re very disciplined in what they do, the way they eat, they have time for meditation, how simple life is for them. But they're still happy. They still smile and are happy. They are grateful. And that’s probably what we miss. As humans, we always want more. We get cranky and... that’s not going to take you anywhere. And when I read the last chapter, when they sent the book to me, I got very emotional. I even was talking to the editor. He sent it to me and I said, "Man, thank you. That made me emotional." And that's what I want to see. Interesting. The other chapters are very interesting. Yeah. Very interesting.
**Michael Frampton**
When did you first start learning about the samurai?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Long time ago. I'm a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, so I've done Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for a long time. And it was what got me into learning more about Japanese philosophy. That’s something—I’m talking about probably when I was 16, 17, and started to do exercise science at university. That made me really understand learning movement and getting into the culture. Because they are probably the oldest culture we have in the world. So... and I believe we have so much to learn from them. So much. Japan is... busy—a lot of people there—but they still maintain good food, they still use unmodified seeds, no modified grains. They still keep on that. And if you look into Japanese technology, they are very successful. They’re probably one of the smartest populations we have in the world. Probably because they still keep the same tradition. Even generation by generation, they pass the same tradition they’ve had for many years. Let's talk about Okinawa—how they put Okinawa on the blue zone—how they take care of themselves. I think a lot of people bought into the diet because it’s a big fight out there: plant-based is better, carnivore is better, paleo is better—they’re fighting too much. And the reality is it's not only the diet. Everything around them—they have tradition, they have a lot of people involved, they have the social parts as they get older. They don’t have much pollution. They have a clean ocean around them. They’re dancing, they exercise every day, they get up early, they do meditation, they go for a walk, and they come back. So it’s simple things. Simple things we have to practice. And a lot of people don’t do it. You know, like simply get up in the morning—just have a cup of water, two cups of water. People just get up—straight to the toilet, short black straight away. And that’s just—it’s a little habit. You can just turn that around. Short black, get a newspaper, what do you like to do? I get up, I get my newspaper, and I get my short black. I say, no, that’s cool. How about you stand, you read the paper, you just go for a nice walk, come back, and just put yourself—relax. And afterward, sit and have a cup of coffee. Same thing—change everything around. Change your smile, change your day, your energy. People don’t understand how much you have to change—not only the environment, the diet—but it’s your energy level. How you talk to people, how you smile during the day, how you put your energy out—showing your brightness out there. And that’s coming for everyone. If the people are cranky, in a bad mood every day—it’s probably because they’re not sleeping. But every night, they have one or two glasses of alcohol and they go to sleep. They’re not sleeping—they’re drunk. But sometimes, they don’t have the best sleep and they get up feeling like crap. And that’s it. It's just—change. Clean up. And that’s—I think—the old philosophers have so much to teach us. Yep, I love it. And that’s the art form.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I love that. And your book certainly encompasses all of that. Thank you for writing it. I think it's got a little bit of everything. You talk about breathing, you talk about sleep, you talk about recovery, you talk about diet. And then there’s a comprehensive training program with really good images—simple black and white images where you can clearly see good ways of moving your body. I think it’s a great book. You've done an outstanding job. Congratulations on it. And there will be links—there will be links to where you can purchase this book in the show notes, as well as to Rod’s website. If you're in the Gold Coast, you can go and see him, or you can check out some of his retreats that he's doing with Tom and everything else that Rod’s got going on on his website there. Links in the show notes. Rod, thank you so much for your time today.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Michael, thanks so much. Thanks for having me on your podcast. It's a big pleasure. And thanks for a long time—we’ve been chatting a long time—last time with you in California. And yeah, it’s good to know your journey as well, like you’re moving back, now looking after kids. Well done, man. Now you're probably in a new challenge and journey for you. But thank you, thanks for your time—really appreciate you hearing all the thoughts about the book.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Awesome. Thanks, Rod. Easy as that, man.
**Rodrigo Perez**
It was easy. Good chat.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Sweet. Thanks for doing it, man. When does it come out? Is it the 14th of March, is it?
**Rodrigo Perez**
14th of...
**Michael Frampton**
May. 14th of May, sorry. Yeah, we’re in May. Okay. Yep. Now, your publicist—is it Anna Tidswell, is that her name?
**Rodrigo Perez**
A publisher? Yes. She’s the girl.
**Michael Frampton**
She’s been in touch. Yeah, we’ll publish this episode after the book comes out and we’ll make sure we have all the links and stuff to it.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Sweet. Thank you. How's life going for you?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, man, it’s okay. It’s busy, man. Mostly just, you know, raising my kids.
**Rodrigo Perez**
How old are they now?
**Michael Frampton**
Eight, nine, and twelve.
**Rodrigo Perez**
You have three. I thought you had two. No—you have boys?
**Michael Frampton**
Three. Three boys.
**Rodrigo Perez**
That's good. They fight each other.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, there's plenty of that. But they're good. They're good kids, they're very active. And we spend a lot of time outdoors. We were surfing throughout the summer, and in winter, they're into football. And yeah, keep them busy. That's...
**Rodrigo Perez**
Good. Yeah. That's part, no? This journey. Probably in the end, they're going to be your best friends. Yeah. When they get 16, 18... I have a client similar to you, but he's raising two kids, lost his wife too—Paulie Malber. You know his past. His first kid just turned 18, so he's out of school. And the second one just got into high school. Yeah. No, I think... dang, yeah. Something like that, yeah. That's good. Good to hear. And that's it. Keep stronger, man. Keep frothing. They love surfing. Surf with them.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Life is good, man. Can't complain.
**Rodrigo Perez**
That's cool. But you're from Northern Beaches?
**Michael Frampton**
No, I lived there for a while. That's when I met Tom. I'm from New Zealand. I lived in Avalon for four years. Miss that place. Have you been to Avalon?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah. I always stay with Tom when I'm going down—I stay with him around there.
**Michael Frampton**
Tom.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah. I'm coming down next weekend. I'm driving down. I'm going to stay with him probably one week.
**Michael Frampton**
Nice. It's paradise there, man.
**Rodrigo Perez**
I told him Avalon is pretty unique because it's just the community there and everything's happening there. It's awesome. Yeah, Avalon and Narrabeen—it's this true gold spot. It's a pretty cool place, world-class.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and Little Avalon is one of my favorite waves.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah. The right one in front of the cliff there?
**Michael Frampton**
The right, yeah.
**Rodrigo Perez**
I never saw it break. Well, I saw photos—Tom sent me some when it’s breaking—but I'm always here and never saw it in person. Maybe this storm—I’ll be there for a little bit longer. But yeah, not yet.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It's a little bit of an intimidating wave, but it's actually covered in congee, like real soft seaweed. So it looks gnarly, but it's not as bad as you think. I think that keeps a lot of people away from it.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Well, Tom sent the photos when it was like 15 feet. He’s taking off—balanced by himself, or him and his brother.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah. It gets big there. I've never surfed it when it's huge there, but it actually holds small waves there as well—just quietly. Okay. Yep. Yeah.
**Rodrigo Perez**
I heard about it. Hopefully, I can see it this time. I met Nick. I heard about him, but I met him just a while ago when I was traveling with Ido Portal.
**Michael Frampton**
No. And have you met Nick?
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, he's come along to do one of his workshops.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Yeah, I just interviewed Nick for the podcast a couple of weeks ago, actually. Yeah, he was trained by Paul Chek a lot, so he's very much...
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yeah, and actually that's because I was trained by Paul. But I come from a generation before him. I think he's younger than us. How old is he, 35?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think he is a bit younger than us, yeah.
**Rodrigo Perez**
Yes, I'm 47 now. So, I’ve been studying Paul Chek since 2004 or 2005. I started studying in London. I was living here three years, in London for one year. Yeah, back here. And I did a lot with Paul when he was still traveling. So at that time, he was still doing some workshops—traveling to Australia. So I did a lot of courses with him and Mark Buckley. And I worked a lot of times with Jane Carton. So Jane Carton was—she's Chek Level Three or Four. She pretty much helped Mick come back when he had the injury behind the bone.
**Michael Frampton**
2007. That's right. That's right. Yep. Yeah.
**Rodrigo Perez**
At that time, I was working for her, and I was doing inventory. Well, yeah. So that's what always started my journey into surf—because of my job. Taylor Knox. A lot of the other guys at that time. And then we ended up splitting because I wanted to move down to Coolangatta and Jane was up north. I said I didn't want to go north and wanted to start my own thing down here. You too, I've got two things to do it. And yeah—thank you. Thanks for that—published.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. All right, man. It's just coming up on the hour, so I better let you go. Sweet, man. I'll let you know when it's... yeah. Sweet. Thanks, man. See ya. Bye.

99 How to Surf Stronger as You Grow Older with Rod Perez (Holistic Pro Health)
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**98 Matt Parker - Choosing Boards and Breaking Surfing Rules** Jul 05, 2024

Are you riding the right surfboard—or just trying to impress people in the parking lot?
In this episode, Matt Parker of Album Surf dismantles the myth that high-performance shortboards are the gold standard for all surfers. From soft tops to asymmetrical shapes, Matt explains how the right board isn’t about status—it’s about unlocking joy, freedom, and better surfing.
Learn why board variety helps you read waves better and accelerate your skill
Discover how pro surfers are ditching shortboards for more playful, experimental shapes
Get Matt’s exact 3-board travel quiver and his unconventional advice on picking boards for max fun
Listen now to hear why breaking surfing rules might be the smartest move for your stoke and your surf progression.
**Follow Matt Parker:**
Instagram: @albumsurf
Linkedin: matt-parker-7877a17
Website: albumsurf.com
Don’t forget to visit our new website for a free PDF download outlining Michael’s top five insights from the show, and reach out if you know anyone at YouTube to help resolve access issues!
Enjoy the episode and happy surfing!
**Key Points**
Matt Parker discusses the significance of personal enjoyment in surfing over seeking approval from others, emphasizing the solitary nature of the sport.
Matt shares his experience transitioning from making surfboards as a hobby to establishing Album Surf as a successful business, driven by demand and innovation.
The misconception that high-performance shortboards are the only legitimate boards for serious surfing is debunked, highlighting the value of alternative designs.
Matt describes the evolution of his relationship with surfing, noting increased enjoyment and appreciation for the sport as he ages.
Matt Parker reveals his preferred three surfboards for travel, showcasing a fish, a big board, and an asymmetrical performance board.
Matt discusses the unique features and benefits of Album Surf's soft tops, distinguishing them from competitors by their design details and manufacturing process.
Matt Parker's best surf advice is to choose a board based on personal enjoyment rather than seeking approval, while his worst advice involves unnecessary restrictions on board choice.
**Outline**
**Surfing Motivations and Social Status**
Matt Parker discusses the idea that some people pursue surfing for social status rather than the actual experience of surfing.
Parker believes that focusing on approval from others is short-term thinking and leads to dissatisfaction.
Surfing is described as a solitary pursuit where the individual experiences the wave and the moment.
**Surf Mastery Podcast and New Website**
Michael Frampton introduces the Surf Mastery Podcast and mentions a new website with a free PDF download of top 5 insights from the show.
The website features insights from the last 8 years of improving surfing skills.
**Matt Parker and Album Surf**
Matt Parker is introduced as a guest from Album Surf, a large surfboard company specializing in various types of boards.
Parker started shaping surfboards in 2001 and emphasizes the blending of curves and interaction with water in surfboard design.
A quote from Parker's website highlights the idea that there shouldn't be rules about what a surfboard looks like.
**Living in New Zealand vs. California**
Michael Frampton discusses living in New Zealand, specifically Hawke's Bay on the east coast of the North Island.
Frampton mentions the average surf conditions in the area and the need to drive for better waves.
Matt Parker compares the weather and surf conditions in Southern California to those in New Zealand.
**Surfboards and Variety**
Matt Parker and Michael Frampton discuss the benefits of using different types of surfboards.
Parker mentions that he rarely rides the same board two days in a row and enjoys the discovery process of each new board.
Frampton shares his experience with an 11-foot Josh Hall board, which taught him about reading waves and being present.
**Professional Surfers and Board Choices**
Michael Frampton notes that many professional surfers, when not competing, choose to ride different types of boards rather than high-performance shortboards.
Matt Parker agrees and provides examples of surfers like Josh Kerr who prefer alternative boards.
Parker believes that high-performance shortboards direct surfers to a specific type of surfing, whereas alternative boards offer more freedom and fun.
**Car Racing Analogy for Surfboards**
Michael Frampton uses a car racing analogy to describe the difference between high-performance shortboards and other types of boards.
Frampton compares high-performance shortboards to finely tuned Formula One cars and other boards to V8 supercars.
Matt Parker agrees with the analogy, emphasizing that surfing is about the feeling and the tactile experience.
**Surf Culture and Perception**
Matt Parker discusses the culture of surfing and the perception that surfers want to project competence and coolness.
Parker believes that some surfers focus more on how they are perceived in the lineup rather than the enjoyment they get from surfing.
He advises against pursuing surfing for the approval of others, especially since it is a solitary pursuit.
**Matt Parker's Journey into Surfboard Shaping**
Matt Parker shares his journey into shaping surfboards, starting with curiosity and experimentation in the late 80s and early 90s.
Parker began shaping boards with no intention of it becoming a business, focusing on the creation and exploration process.
His interest in different board shapes and the lack of available options led him to start shaping his own boards.
**Transition to a Business**
Matt Parker transitioned from shaping boards as a hobby to running Album Surf as a business.
The demand for his unique boards and the accessibility of the surf industry in the digital age contributed to this decision.
Parker's boards resonated with professional surfers, validating his designs and encouraging him to pursue the business further.
**Surfing Philosophy and Enjoyment**
Matt Parker shares his current relationship with surfing, emphasizing the importance of being in the water as much as possible.
He notes that while his physical abilities may have peaked, he enjoys surfing more now than ever due to a better perspective and appreciation for the experience.
Parker believes that the mindset and appreciation for the opportunity to surf contribute to a more enjoyable experience.
**Choosing Surfboards for Travel**
Matt Parker discusses the challenge of choosing three boards to travel with, given his constant R&D and new board designs.
He suggests a fish, a bigger board like Margo's models, and an asymmetrical high-performance board like the Disorder or Bongia.
Michael Frampton agrees, highlighting the importance of having a versatile quiver to adapt to different wave conditions.
**Glider Surfboards and Longboarding**
Matt Parker and Michael Frampton discuss the satisfaction and unique experience of riding glider surfboards.
They emphasize the kinetic energy, speed, and momentum maintenance that gliders offer.
Parker prefers riding gliders over traditional longboards, enjoying the trim and glide feeling.
**Soft Top Surfboards**
Matt Parker explains the differences in Album Surf's soft top surfboards compared to others on the market.
He mentions that their soft tops are made in different places, with some having injection foam and others having a foam core with stringers.
Parker highlights the benefits of soft tops for beginners and experienced surfers alike, emphasizing the fun and unique experience they offer.
**Best and Worst Surf Advice**
Matt Parker shares the best surf advice he has received, which is to choose the board that brings the most fun and not worry about others' opinions.
He also mentions the worst advice, which is unnecessary rules or perceptions about how surfing should be done.
Parker emphasizes that surfing should be about having fun and being out in the ocean, without strict rules or expectations.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. Today's guest is Matt Parker from Album Surf. But before we get into that, a couple of housekeeping items. Firstly, Surf Mastery has a new website, and included on that on the front page is a free PDF download outlining my top five insights from the show and the last eight years or so of focusing on improving my own surfing. Um, so go ahead and download that puppy. Also, does anyone know anyone on YouTube? I have been denied access to my YouTube account and have exhausted all other avenues and have had a dead end. So if anyone knows anyone at YouTube, please reach out: mike@surfmastery.com or you can DM me on Instagram as well. Onto the show. Today's guest, like I said, is Matt Parker from Album Surf. Matt is a surfer from Southern California, and he started shaping surfboards from his garage back in 2001. And now Album Surf is one of the largest surfboard companies around. They specialize in all types of boards. And let me read a little quote from Matt’s website, which sort of summarizes the way he thinks about surfboards. This is a quote from Matt: “The surfboard is a constant blending of curves and how they interact with the water, making those curves feel comfortable, like an extension of your feet and your mind.” It's so interesting. There shouldn’t be any rules about what a surfboard looks like. I love that quote, and you would have seen there are so many pros that when they aren’t surfing on tour, they end up on these boards, including one of my favorite surfers of all time, Margo. Yes, one of the best free surfers around, Brendan Margieson is well worth a follow on Instagram as well. He started riding Matt’s boards. Anyway, without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation with Matt Parker from Album Surf.
**Matt Parker**
How are things? Uh, how are things in New Zealand?
**Michael Frampton**
Are things going swimmingly?
**Matt Parker**
Always there. So you live in the prettiest place on Earth. How could it not?
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, yeah. You're not wrong. Although I have to admit, I do miss California.
**Matt Parker**
Did you have spent time out here before you lived here or just...
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I lived in, uh, I lived in Point Dume, Malibu for four years. Oh, cool. So I was obviously in a little bit of a bubble surfing Little Dume every day, but, uh, you know, the weather, the weather alone in Southern California, I kind of felt like it was a bit monotonous. After four years there, I almost missed winter. But having come back to New Zealand and actually experiencing the four seasons, I take California any day.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah, it's big news when it rains here. It's like, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no one can drive in the rain in California.
**Matt Parker**
No. Definitely not, definitely not.
**Michael Frampton**
And then, of course you can't. Well, you're not supposed to go in the water either.
**Matt Parker**
Uh, so. So whereabouts in New Zealand? What part are you at? Like, where do you surf at and all that?
**Michael Frampton**
I'm in a place called Hawke’s Bay, which is on the east coast of the North Island. There's nowhere really famous surf-wise around here. The surf is pretty average around here, actually. We have a mass, uh, continental shelf. So the swell comes in with a, uh, just with almost no energy left in it unless it's a certain period that seems to sneak through. Um, so, yeah, around here is not so good for surfing, to be honest. I came back here to, you know, raise the kids and I think, yeah, that sort of thing.
**Matt Parker**
But there’s pretty drivable though, right? I mean, you can get...
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, if you're willing to drive, um, then yeah, you can get waves, probably get good waves almost every day in New Zealand actually, if you're willing to drive and put up with a little bit of weather.
**Matt Parker**
Mhm. Not afraid of a little wind. Right. Find the blowing the right way. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. Well, that’s another big thing is I remember in Southern California so many days there’s just no wind.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Where you don’t really get that in New Zealand. Maybe the first two hours of the day there's not much wind, but you'd never get a day where it’s glassy until midday like in Southern California. That’s rare here.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. That's like the prototypical dreamy Southern California fall day where it's kind of glass, a little bit offshore in the morning, and kind of glassy and nice and sunny and warm all day with fun combo swells. That's kind of the ideal. It's like that a lot. I'm down in San Clemente. It's pretty clean down here, too. We live in like a little valley that kind of keeps the wind cleaner here. I don't know if it's just protected a little bit from some of the, you know, more beach break spots up in Huntington and Newport, all those spots. But, um...
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, I've spent a little bit of time down your way as well. I surfed Lowers and I got to interview Archy on my way down there and I spent some time. Um, I love surfing Swami’s and just that whole Encinitas area. Spent some time down there?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And, uh, part of what I wanted to talk about today was, obviously, surfboards. But I remember we interviewed Devon Howard, and so I got to surf with Devon and I was surfing this, like it was a Stu Kenson 9'4". And I would just paddle. I would just paddle right out the back as far as you can at Little Dume and surf it like Sarlo, almost just catch the swell and just get long, big sweeping rides. And Devon’s like, “You should just be on a glider.” And I was like, “What’s a glider?” And then so I just, I just went out and bought an 11-foot Josh Hall, and that’s pretty much all I surf all of the time.
**Matt Parker**
Even further out. You weren't even like another hundred yards out, would catch it even out the back. Yeah. It's amazing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And then I'm always swapping around boards. But that 11-foot board just taught me so much about surfing. Just the sheer volume and weight and size of the board. Just, you have to think about reading the waves so differently and about, you know, the space around you with other people so differently. And then when you finally do jump back on a board, a shortboard or whatever, I found it so much easier and more fun and easier to sort of be present after having learnt how to surf such a big surfboard. Yo. Have you experienced anything similar with playing around with lots of different boards?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah, I, um, I, obviously I make boards and so I'm always riding something different. You know, most of the time it's rare that I ride the same board two days in a row. Um, and so I'm very used to like the initial paddle out where, um, I, I can't try too hard, you know what I mean? I kind of have to just feel what the board is going to do and just kind of be open to what it feels like once I'm dropping in and just kind of riding the wave. And so it makes me, um, yeah, it's just a good little lesson every time because you can't, you can't force it. And so, uh, you remain a little bit relaxed and not try to do too much, and then you kind of feel it out and every wave is kind of like a—you're learning a little bit more about what the board wants to do and what line it wants to take, and trying to figure out where the gas pedal is. And, and, uh, so that's like the discovery part of surfing for me because I surf, I tend to surf the same place every day. And it's a point break down near, uh, Lowers and it's kind of a similar wave, but it's kind of a sectional point break that offers some variety. But it's the same place. You know, I'm surfing in the same spot all the time. And so the variety of boards, um, just kind of changes up. Um, it kind of removes expectations sometimes. I think sometimes if you have a board you've ridden a ton and you're kind of like, oh, this is the kind of surfing I want to go do. And these are the, you know, these are the turns I'm going to do or whatever. And when you're surfing a little bit more blind to what the board is going to allow you to do, it just kind of, um, keeps you from having expectations. And then you're kind of, uh, you just find fun in different ways and new experiences every time you surf.
**Michael Frampton**
So I think that really good top-level surfers are doing that on a much more refined and accurate level because they're always so close to where the wave is breaking. There's so much in the source and they're feeling all those little bumps and nooks and obviously those sorts of boards at that speed are ridiculously sensitive. So if they're not tuned in to that, it’s just not going to happen. Whereas you and I are surfing bigger boards a little further away from the power source, we kind of can get away with not being tuned in, but when we do, they're aware.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah, their awareness level is so next level, so high. I like the little nuances, and they can feel a lot of things they can and can't always communicate verbally, but they definitely know what they're feeling and experiencing in a different way than most regular people.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You know what I found that's really interesting is, all of the pros—well, not all of them—a lot of the pros, when you see them out free surfing or when they take a break off tour, then they're not riding high-performance shortboards. You know, Josh Kerr is a great example. Um, you know, even Steph Gilmore and Kelly Slater with Firewire, just riding different boards. As soon as there's not a camera and a judge looking at them, they're like, "I'm on this board." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I go down to the local beach and it's waist high and onshore and it's 11 seconds, and there's people out there on toothpicks pumping and getting angry. But the pro—even the pros when they're surfing good waves—they're not on those high-performance shortboards. Are you seeing a similar trend overall in Southern California?
**Matt Parker**
Uh, yeah. I mean, well, specifically with everybody that—all the guys and gals I make boards for—but no one that rides for us really does contest surfing. Most everyone is just kind of free surfing. And so they're definitely on the track of surfing whatever feels good and experiencing a lot of different things. But yeah, Josh is a perfect example. I don't think he's touched a thruster since his last heat at Pipe, honestly, when he retired, and that was probably five years ago or something like that. Even in good waves and every kind of wave, whether he's in Indo or wherever it is, he's always riding something different. And uh, I think obviously high-performance shortboards surf amazing. We all love to watch surfing. We love watching contests and, you know, the sport of it all. It's always exciting and entertaining and all that. But I think that type of board, um, directs you to one type of surfing. There’s, you know, like everyone's trying to kind of surf the ideal way that that board kind of pushes you to. And the judging and the contest structure is kind of, um, positioned around that ideal as well. So I think, um, when you remove that, that box that you're trying to operate in and you don't have to do the same turns and all that, you know, you're just freed up to do whatever you want to do. That's always going to be a more fun option. And for me personally, I am someone who makes boards, it's true. That's my favorite thing, is to see, uh, people that can surf at a world-class level, see them surf a lot of different boards and see the different places those boards can go when it's put under the feet of very, very talented people. Because, um, because for the most part, you know, most of the surf media, most surf contests, you see these very high-level surfers riding very similar types of equipment.
**Michael Frampton**
Um, yeah, I've always had this analogy in terms of car racing, whereas the pros in a contest, they're in a finely tuned Formula 1 that's customized for their style, right? And then for some reason, we want to go race around the local racetrack, and we think we need to be in one of those cars. And yeah, sure, when the average driver is in a high-performance car, yes, you can drive it around the track, but man, it's going to be bumpy. It's going to be shaking. If you're not constantly turning the car, it's just not going to be as fun as getting in a V8 supercar that's nowhere near as fast or fine-tuned, but it's a little more—it's got a little more give. It still goes fast. So that's what I'm wondering. You see these pros, when they're surfing outside of the contest, they don't necessarily want to be in a finely tuned Formula 1. They just want to be in a V8 supercar and just have a little less pressure and a little more give. How does that analogy stack up for you? The car racing one?
**Matt Parker**
Well, I like—to me surfing really is about the feeling, right? And like the tactile feeling of driving a car that's fast and that wants to go and that you're feeling it. And there's a little bit of like, uh, you know, you're not going to crash right away. You know, like a regular driver, if they went behind the F1 car, they're probably going to crash pretty quick because they just can't handle it, right? It's too technical to drive, all that kind of stuff. So you get into something that has a better feel. But it is about the feeling. And you know, ultimately that's what we're chasing every time we surf. That's why we want to get another wave, is because you want to get that feeling again. And uh, and so the same with the pros that can surf at the highest level. You know, they're chasing the feeling. The contest is like the job side of it. You know, it's ticking the box I feel in to win and do all that. But if they're freed from that, they're chasing the feeling of going fast and finding a tube and not having to fit in as many turns as they need to just to get the score, but to actually do the turn where the wave is allowing them to or not, or just ride the wave.
**Michael Frampton**
So that makes sense. Well, yeah, because I'm always dumbfounded when you see so many surfers spending so much time and money on taking these high-performance—you know, they watch *Stab in the Dark* and they want to buy the latest version of the ten shortboards that they already own. It really doesn't make much sense to me. And I think things are changing, but there certainly is still a large percentage of surfers that fit in that category. Uh, do you think it's trending the other way with companies like yourself and even, you know, Channel Islands are broadening their range of boards? Um, I...
**Matt Parker**
Think it's—for me, it definitely is the best time to be alive, to be a surfer, because you really have more options nowadays than you ever have in the past, and you really can ride anything. When I was young, as a teenager in the 90s, surfing—it really was—you, everyone kind of had the same board. I rode the same board no matter the conditions. It was like a 6'3", 18.5", 2¼", rockered-out shortboard no matter what. If it was one foot, if it was six foot, whatever. So nowadays you really do—like, I think everyone's kind of experienced like, oh yeah, I can have a little bit more of a diverse quiver, and it's okay if I'm riding a fish one day or I'm riding like a little stretched-out worm another day, or if I'm riding a shortboard one day or whatever. It's like there's a little bit more, um, versatility and variety, and, um, so it's a—it's a great time to be alive, to be a surfer in that way. I think, um, uh, I just think that, yeah, there's just less rules, less rules about it, more enjoyment.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. I guess the question is, the impetus of the show is education and inspiration for better surfing, really. And I guess when I take on a client myself personally, um, one of the first things I say to them is like, why do you want to—why are you on that board? Like, this isn't—you're not surfing double overhead barrels. Like, that's what that board’s made for. Like, just try...
**Matt Parker**
Yeah, I think I've said this before, but I think a lot of, um, uh, just the culture of surfing is a little bit like—no, everyone wants to look competent, right? And so a lot, a lot of surfing culture is the perception that you put out there, right? Like, I'm the cool guy. I got the right board. I got—I'm not a kook. You know, I'm wearing the right trunks, I've got the right wetsuit, and I've got the right traction pad, and whatever it is, I've got the cool label. This is what I'm—you know, because a lot of people are more concerned with how others perceive them in the lineup. Because sometimes, you know, how you're perceived in the lineup gives you status and gives you—you know, if you're competent, you can kind of—you get more waves and you get a little bit more respect from people around you. And so there's a little bit of a game that people play in trying to, um, project competency and a cool factor. And I'm not a kook. And so sometimes people put too much weight on that, and they're more concerned with what they look like on the beach or in the car park than they actually are...
**Matt Parker**
And then the enjoyment they're actually getting out of it themselves. You know, like, are you actually having fun? You mentioned like the guys that are flapping around and having a miserable time. There's always people out in the water that are—you kind of wonder sometimes. Do you actually—like, what are you actually getting out of this? Do you actually enjoy what you're doing? And, uh, I don't know. Every—different strokes for different folks. People get different things out of it. And maybe that little social status thing is more important than the actual surfing. And I think that's obviously short-term thinking, because—and it's like, that's a hollow chase that you're after, because you're never going to be satisfied with that. And you shouldn't be. I don't think you should be spending too much time pursuing things for the approval of others. You know, surfing is kind of a solitary pursuit, right? You're the one that's doing it, and you're the one that's riding the wave, and you're the one that's having that moment and feeling it. If you're doing it for what other people think about you, I think you're missing. You're missing the point, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
So, yeah, well, I definitely fit into that category for a while. Um, we all do.
**Matt Parker**
At some point, you know, in a little bit. We all do. You know, everyone—no, like I said, everybody who surfs wants to look competent. Kelly Slater doesn't want to be a kook. He wants to be the cool guy in the lineup. We all kind of have that feeling to a certain degree.
**Michael Frampton**
Um, and there's something to be said, you know, surfing that high-performance shortboard in all types of conditions—you will develop a very intimate relationship with that surfboard. And when the waves do turn on, you're going to be pretty used to it. And then, you know, you're probably going to have a better surf on that day. Um, but was there a point in your surfing life where that changed? Like, where you started riding different boards, more volume, etc.?
**Matt Parker**
Um, yeah. Like I said, I grew up in the—like, I started surfing in the late 80s, early—and then through the 90s. I was a teenager in the early 90s, and, uh, back then it was really about just being competent enough and you just riding what everybody else rode. And that was really all that was available—just kind of your standard shortboards. I guess for me, as like a general public, you know, not in—you know, I didn’t have any—my dad surfed a little bit when he was young, but I didn’t come from like a long line of family surfing and all that kind of stuff. And so probably I—I started getting curious, more curious about surfboards. Um, and that’s kind of what led me into shaping a little bit, is that I was interested. I—you know, you get—back then, this is pre-internet really, you know, but you would get little—to see different little videos. You’d see different things that were just like, oh, you know, like, that looks fun. That looks like more fun. I was surfing Newport Beach. It's two-foot closeouts most of the time. It's not good. It's—you know, it's hard. Like surfing is hard out there and you're riding equipment that's bad.
**Matt Parker**
So you just have a lot of frustrating sessions and you're just like, just gotta—you know, just—you would see videos, you'd see guys in good waves. And so that was always—like I was interested in, um, trying different boards to get a different experience. You know, I was competent enough, but I was by no means pro or anything like that. I was good enough out in the lineup to get waves and to surf and fine, but it was not—but I always felt like those boards held me back, too. You know, just the normal boards, because they kind of—you know, you just have like—it can't be this frustrating all the time. So the interest in different boards. So I would go to different shops and I would want to get a board that was different and I could never really find one. You know, I could never really find what I was looking for. And then, um, even when I would order custom boards, you know, from local shapers, I would try to explain what I had in my brain, what I was like trying to go for. And it was never—it never—like, it was probably my fault for not communicating that clearly what I was really after, but it never was it.
**Matt Parker**
And so I was, uh, in design school and art school and taking all these like sculpture and drawing and painting classes and stuff. And so it was just kind of a natural extension to get a blank and some tools and kind of experiment and just try to make something without any restrictions of what it had to look like, because I was just fooling around, you know. So that was probably the interest. And that was probably at the time when, like, um, things were coming more online and you had more access to just different things other people were doing. And so you could kind of see, uh, you know, your world was kind of opened up as far as like, oh, there’s like other shapers in all these places making different things. And there are a lot of cool things out there that I just hadn’t really experienced and I didn’t have—I had never tried or felt or seen in person, but like, it just kind of expanded what was possible. And the interest level in surfing really grew. And my fun level expanded too, because it was like everything was opened up more.
**Michael Frampton**
Um, and then it sounds like the development or the birth of Album Surfboards was quite organic. You saw essentially a gap in the market, right?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. Initially, for years I was shaping boards with no intention of it being a thing, being a business or anything. It was more—I just wanted to try different things. And, um, the creation part of it was really fun, like just designing and trying something, and the tactile thing of making something with your hands and then seeing it finished and then going and riding it was very addicting. It was very, um, yeah, it just kind of opened my mind a lot. And it was just—it just made the exploration process of trying different boards satisfying, even if the surf was bad. So in the old days, you know, as a kid when I was a teenager and you’re trying to just, like, do all the moves you see in the videos and you’re having frustrating sessions because the waves aren’t good most of the time, and you’re riding boards that aren’t good—you just—surfing wasn’t as fun. And so when I was making boards and exploring and trying these different types of shapes, just going out and seeing that it worked and making it like get down the line and get the feeling of speed that I was kind of envisioning with it was satisfying.
**Matt Parker**
So the waves didn’t have to be good, and my surfing didn’t have to be amazing, and I was still, like, very satisfied and validated and surf-stoked. I was inspired to go make another board and surf more because I wanted to try out these things that I was, um, that I was playing around with. But I did that for years—hundreds, probably a couple thousand boards—before it was even, like, a real business I was doing. I was a designer by trade, and so I was doing, like, graphic design work, and that was kind of what my employment or job focus was, and making boards was like this side—this just kind of creative art project on the side that I could just have fun with. And I could usually, like, sell one to pay for another one and, you know, fund it, you know, put it up like in the used rack at a shop and sell it on consignment. Just turn it over enough to learn the craft without any pressure of having to be a professional at doing it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So did your entrepreneurial journey begin with the Album agency?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah, exactly. So that was—I was running my own business and just doing client work, client design work that way. And, um, building the surfboards and kind of treating it like my own little micro brand was kind of also an extension of the graphic design side. So I was able to kind of like—you know, you’re doing work for clients in industries that you’re not really interested in, you know—and I was like, here’s a chance for me to play around with design and create it and kind of like make this a fun little, like, you know, brand for fun without any, you know, strings attached.
**Michael Frampton**
And what inspired you to make the leap? To turn the surfboards into the main business?
**Matt Parker**
Uh, there was just—well, I was doing it at night. So I would be working in the day—like, client work and, um, designing and getting projects done. And then I’d go home and have dinner with the family and then put the little kids to bed and go in my garage or go in my backyard and shape at night. And I was doing this a lot. So I was working a lot—I was working a full-time-plus job and then shaping on the side. And demand just kind of like, you know—we were just kind of—we would get out—you know, I was making boards that were probably interesting and that resonated with other people that they hadn’t seen either. And there was something unique about what we were doing. And so, um, the age of when we are, you know, in this last 15 years where things are just more accessible and people can find you easier—it just kind of—the awareness of what I was doing got out there probably faster than if it was 30 years ago. No—the people in my little community would have known. But then, so then people would just want to order a board, and then that just kind of gets to this, uh, point where the demand kind of exceeds the time on the other side. And so I just kind of realized like, oh, there’s, uh—I think by that point, too, I had made enough boards and had enough awareness of just the surf industry and kind of where things were, that you could kind of see opportunities or openings in the market. And like, here we have something different to say, and there’s people that are interested in what we’re doing. So yeah, let’s make a little run at it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Well, you mentioned supply and demand—I mean, that is why business exists. So obviously the culture is changing. You know, people are more interested in, uh, you know, different shapes. And, uh, I would say a higher level of longevity—you get a much more longevity out of a surfboard like yours as opposed to a pop-out, um, white shortboard for sure.
**Matt Parker**
I think the other thing too was—I made boards, I made some boards for some good surfers, some pros and things like that, and they worked really well. And so there was kind of like this validation of like, oh, okay. Like, I mean, I knew—like I said, I was competent enough to know that they worked for my level of surfing, and I was having an amazing time and having fun, and my friends were. But then, um, when I made some boards for guys that could surf really well, and then they had more fun on that too, it was kind of like, oh, you know, maybe there really is something a little different that we’re doing that does work and makes sense of like—we should kind of follow that path because there’s something there that hasn’t been tapped into yet, and it resonates with guys that can surf at the highest level. So we should kind of pursue that.
**Michael Frampton**
Um, that leads me into a question I have about—let’s get into your designs a little bit. So I remember I first got into surfing fish surfboards. I had a Christensen fish that I used to surf a lot. And then I remember one day the waves turned on, um, and rising swell. And next thing you know, I’m surfing almost double overhead waves. And I find, man, to be able to surf that fish in those real good solid waves, I would have to move my feet closer to the inside rail to do a bottom turn, and then I go up to do a top turn—it would just slide outside. This is not the right surfboard. But at the same time, I don’t want to be surfing a high-performance shortboard. And then you look at someone like Josh Kerr surfing the Twinsman or the, um, Insanity—I think it is—in the Mentawais in double overhead waves, getting barreled and doing airs on what is, I guess, hybrid or alternative high-performance shape. Now, is that the kind of board that only he can ride in those waves? Or is it designed so that anyone can have a good time in those overseas waves?
**Matt Parker**
Well, I think there's a misnomer. To me, there was always a misnomer in the marketplace that high-performance shortboards are for like "real" surfing and alternative boards are just, you know, for fun or whatever. And, um, I think if you look at the trajectory of surfboards from, you know, longboards, logs up into the early 60s, mid-60s, to how quickly it progressed and revolutionized—like what people were riding in such a short window of time—there's so many, um, like, design steps along the way and different types of boards along the way that, like, didn't get their full, uh, fleshing out. Right? So there's a lot of ideas in that time. And I—I mean, twin fins are a perfect example of that. Like, where twin fins were really at like their height from, you know, '78 to '81 or something like that, or, you know, '77—like, what is it? Three or four years or something like that, where twin fins were like the high-performance little hot-dog board that people were riding. And that was with kind of like—I mean, nowadays, like that window of time is a blink. You know, three years—it's like most of us have boards that we've surfed for five, six, eight years. You know what I mean? So three years is nothing. And so, you know, you just see like, oh, the fins they were riding—they didn't have enough time to develop the right fins for them. And they didn't have enough time to think about fin placement and designing the rail shape and bottom contour to fit where that goes and what type of wave that needs to be surfed in and what blanks were available and different glassing layups and all that.
**Matt Parker**
It was just too fast. And so, um, I've always felt like, um, alternative boards—twin fins—are not like a cop-out of, "I'm just going to screw around." Like, it's like any sort of design, any place I'm going to take a surfboard, there's an intended performance or design intention for that concept. And so the concept is meant to perform at a high level. It's just a different way of doing it. And, um, and so like with Josh, those boards—like, he has more fun and more freedom, more speed. They're easier to turn on a twin fin, you know, and so if you can make them and design it to be able to handle any type of wave, they're certainly obviously capable and validated by him and others in those types of waves. And so it's just a matter of backing it, backing the concept and then proving the concept and then iterating the idea and the concept enough to prove it out and refine it and get it right so that it actually does work in those types of waves.
**Matt Parker**
But I think sometimes when, like, you know, shapers or whatever—if they're focused on one thing, if they're focused on high-performance shortboards, their version of a twin fin or a fish is not the main design intention. It's almost like a little—it’s like a spin-off of their shortboard idea. And it's like they take their shortboard idea and they kind of fatten it a little bit and just put two fins in it instead of three and, you know, maybe make it a swallowtail. We'll call it the alternative board. And to me, I'm more focused on the concept of a high-performance twin fin that maybe surfs better or is more of an advantage than a shortboard would be in those waves. And so it's like, how would I design it? Where do the fins go? What does that mean for the bottom contour? Like, what dimensions are we talking about? You know? And so there's—like the funnest thing about surfing is there's so many variables in the types of waves, in the swell and the wind conditions and the interval and where you're surfing, the type of surfing you want to do. And so there's kind of like these endless rabbit holes of design and conceptual thinking you can go down and create whatever. And it's so fun too, because I mean, I think surfers should be very grateful and realize how fortunate that we all are.
**Michael Frampton**
That we—we—we...
**Matt Parker**
Um, participate in this pursuit where we can make all sorts of different things all the time. I mean, if you're like, if you're driving or you're skiing or whatever it is, it's much more difficult to—you're not going to go make ten different concepts of skis that you're going to go try out every different time you go skiing. But with surfboards, you can make—you know, I can go surf today, have a session out there, get the pros and cons of the board I’m riding. I come back to design something based on that idea, shape it that day, gloss it, and be surfing something next week.
**Michael Frampton**
Mmm.
**Matt Parker**
Something that I was intending to design for. That’s just like—it’s just a cool thing that we all kind of—and surfing is small enough, the surf industry is small enough that if you're motivated, you can have access to any of that. It's relatively—for what that is, for the access to that kind of R&D and design options for different types of boards—it’s relatively inexpensive. Not super cost-prohibitive. You know, if you're into it, if you're committed to it, it's affordable enough. You can—you know...
**Michael Frampton**
Mhm. Yeah, I think the importance of a quiver is... yeah, I mean, I don’t know whether that’s why you chose the name Album, but you know, it makes me think of a good album like *Pearl Jam Ten*, which is ten really good songs, all with different moods but still the same album. You know, you can sit—you can sit down and listen to the album, or you can sit down and listen to one song. And I almost see a surfboard quiver as like that. It’s—you know, has ten surfboards that are for you, but for the different types of moods and the waves that you’re surfing. But it does make me think, because there’s also that Swiss Army knife surfboard that kind of does pretty good in most waves and tends to excel in sort of head-high good waves, for sure. What’s that—what’s that surfboard for you within your quiver? What would that Swiss Army knife board be?
**Matt Parker**
Well, that would probably be like a board I would travel with, right? Because you're—something that you would have that you'd want to have versatility for. And that would probably be like Victor’s model, like a Banana Bunch. It's like a quad—asymmetrical quad. It's kind of a hybrid. It's definitely a performance board, but it definitely is easier to go fast. And it paddles a little bit better. And it turns super easy. And it’s versatile in a lot of kinds of waves. Um, it's probably something like that. Um, honestly, if you have the right mindset though, almost any board in your quiver should be able to fill that slot, I think.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that’s a good point.
**Matt Parker**
Yep. It's all—I mean, to me there's, um, you know, sometimes—we all do it—where no matter what board you're surfing, people try to surf the same way, right? They have like their, "This is the way I bottom turn. This is the turn I do. This is my little re-entry." And you'll watch them out there, and it doesn't matter if they're riding their fish or mid-length or shortboard or whatever it is, they kind of surf the same. And, uh, that's fine. That's totally fine. But I think it's good to be a little bit more open to what the board wants to do and the type of surfing that board is going to allow you to do and how it might open up the kind of surfing you do and the enjoyment you get out of that kind of surfing, so that it makes you a little bit more versatile in what your approach is like. Victor Bernardo, who rides for us, is a really good example of that because I think a lot of times people, when they’re building a quiver, they are a little bit too narrow in scope or what range they’re going for. Like, it happens all the time where I’ll have people that—they kind of—they want their fish and their shortboard and their twin fin and everything to all be within like a little volume range. Like, "Here’s my liter, here's the liter I ride, and my boards need to be within 30 to 31.5 liters."
**Matt Parker**
And they try to fit all their boards—and it's like, I think you're missing out if you're thinking about it in that way. So Victor is this perfect example because he's a young man, 26, 27 years old, a highest-level professional surfer, can surf as well as anybody in the world. Competed on the show, did all that stuff, right? But if you look at his quiver, it is like—from 5'0" to 8'0" and everything in between. I mean, obviously, he has access to a lot of boards, which helps. It makes it easy to ride a lot of stuff. But still, his mindset is like—if you were just talking about what volume he rides, he rides from 29 liters to 42 liters. You know what I mean? So his range is like this, and these are all different types of what I would call performance boards. So even yesterday—or this week—we were in Hawaii.
**Matt Parker**
He's still there right now, but we were on the North Shore this past week, and he was riding a 6'8" Bungee round tail, which is—his normal version is like a 5'8" or 5'9", and he was riding the 6'8" round tail version that was plus volume. It was actually one of Brendan Margieson’s boards that Margo left there in Hawaii. When Margo went back to Australia, Victor took it out and got a couple of amazing waves at Pipe, you know, on that board. And so it's just—definitely not limiting his performance—actually enhancing his performance because it was something unique that he wouldn’t have maybe taken out normally, but it just kind of opened up his surfing. And I think if you remain a little bit more open—open to what the board wants to do and what the waves are asking you to do—you will just have more fun. Yeah. Surfing gets to, like you were saying just now, like it started, right? When you're riding the glider and then you go jump onto your shortboard, your surfing is better because your fundamentals are better. Your timing is a little different. You know, your mindset is a little different.
**Michael Frampton**
So yeah, I think every board you ride opens up—you have to read the waves a little differently and look for different lines. And like you said, your timing has to be better, or maybe it can be more lax, or you're looking for a different type of wave or whatever. So I think it really just helps you to read the ocean better. I think that's the main reason why different surfboards can improve your surfing when you jump back on your favorite board—because you just read the wave with more detail. Riding that glider changed my realization of how big and how fast of a section I can actually make because those boards go ridiculously fast. Um, yeah. And I surprised myself many times with what I could—what section I could get around. And that literally translated to surfing other boards. I'm going to try and make that section. I'm going to get a bit lower and stay on the whitewash a bit longer. And lo and behold, surfing that big, crazy board just had me making different types of waves and changing my whole perspective on reading the ocean. Um, it sounds like—I agree with that—it sounds like Victor needs to go longer as well.
**Matt Parker**
He does. He rides bigger. But I think the point of a quiver is to make you surf as much as possible. So no matter what the waves are, you have the right board to have fun that day. And that's really the— to me—the thing that improves you as a surfer the most is water time. So if you're surfing a lot, if you're surfing more days than you're not, you're going to get better. You read the ocean better, your timing is better, your strength, your paddle strength is better. All that stuff kind of comes into play the more you surf. And so if you have a quiver that motivates you to want to surf and makes you—kind of no matter what the waves are—you're like, "Oh, I'm stoked to go out today because I have the right board," then you're going to have more fun. And you see those guys struggling and you're having fun and they're miserable. It's like, oh yeah, you made the right choice, and you have the right board to just get out in the water a lot.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think you nailed it. That is the point of a quiver. So it's as simple as that. And you're right. I mean, the best thing that ultimately you can do for your surfing is not only to surf more, but to surf more waves. And if you're on the right surfboard for the condition, you are going to catch more waves. When it's knee-high here at my local point break and there's no one out, I'm literally giddy because I have an 11-foot Josh Hall and no one can compete with that because no one...
**Matt Parker**
How did you ship that thing to New Zealand? How did you get that point there? That's what I want to know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I know. It...
**Matt Parker**
Just...
**Michael Frampton**
I filled a container with all of my stuff. So I've got—I’ve got my Wayne Rich 9'8" and everything. Everything here. So how—how would you, if I just asked you an open question, what is a surfboard?
**Matt Parker**
Uh, well, there's the—you know, it's foam and fiberglass and resin and all that, right? Uh, but I think it's just—it’s a tool to allow you to go ride the waves. So whatever that is, it comes in many forms, that's for sure. Yeah. Uh, I think it's—depending on, you know, a surfboard for Pipeline, like where we were at last week, is not a surfboard for Upper Trestles, where I surf most every other day. Very, very different tools for those different types of waves. And so I think it's a tool that gets you to catch a wave and ride a wave. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Simple. How would you describe your current relationship with surfing and the ocean, and how has it evolved over the years?
**Matt Parker**
Um, I surf a lot. To me, it's the most important thing in my job as a designer and shaper and surfboard manufacturer—is being in the water as much as I can. So I surf five or six days a week. And, uh, it's kind of a daily ritual, getting out there. And so I surf a lot. Um, I'm 47 now, so I'm definitely past my peak of, uh—my better—my best days are behind me as far as strength and ability level and all that kind of stuff. But I definitely have more fun surfing now than I ever have in my life. And, uh, I get more enjoyment out of it and I have a better perspective on it. And so, um, you just appreciate different things about sessions that you skipped and you missed when you're young and immature. And so, you know, with age comes wisdom. And so I definitely—yeah, I appreciate it. Every session I go out I just have a better mindset for just appreciating the opportunity to go out and surf. I live in a place where I have things like surfboards to ride and just waves most every day that are rideable. It's a real blessing. So I think that my mindset makes me appreciate it more now than ever. So. Mhm.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I like that. I'm going to go back to—so we talked about the Swiss Army, the single board. What if you could choose three boards to travel with or just to have, what would those three boards be?
**Matt Parker**
It's—you know it's funny, because we’re talking about quivers, right? And I'm actually like—I don’t have a great quiver because I don’t have boards I hold on to that long. The problem for me is that I'm always doing R&D and working on new models and new boards. And so it’s ever-changing. So my answer would probably be that if you asked me next month, it would probably be different than it would be a month ago. So it changes all the time. But if I was going to—like where we live—going down to Mexico, go down there all the time and surf the points, I would for sure take some form of a fish. I've been riding a version of Asher Pacey's Sunstone with a little hip, and I’ve been riding it as a quad a bunch lately, and I’ve been riding it with twin fin, like upright twin fins in the lead boxes, and little small trailers in the quad trailer boxes, and been having a good old time on that. So I would definitely bring one of those. I’d probably bring a bigger board, like one of Margo’s models—a Vesper or a Delma—which is like a stretched out, kind of like a slot channel, concave, bonzer-ish bottom quad. I'd definitely bring one of those. I can hang in good surf too, and they're really nimble, easy to turn for a big board. I'll ride those 6'8" to 7'2", 7'4", 7'6". I have an 8'0" I take out on that all the time. Definitely take that. And then I’d probably take something asymmetrical, some sort of a Disorder model, which is like my high-performance kind of like foiled rails, outline-shifted, or a Bungee like I was saying—probably something to at least, like, cover the bases.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, cool. I'm taking a Whale Shark, a Vesper, and an Insanity.
**Matt Parker**
Oh, that’s good. That’s a good call too. The Whale Shark would tick that glider box for you for sure. Uh, so I...
**Michael Frampton**
Want one so bad just by reading the description. That’s it.
**Matt Parker**
Uh...
**Matt Parker**
When you're talking about that buildup of that section and you're just in so early and you have fun—for me, the fun of those boards is that kinetic energy of, like, the speed building. Like, you build the speed and maintain the speed and build the speed some more. And it’s just a very satisfying feeling. It’s just me. And I—we make longboards and I enjoy longboarding, but I prefer it—if I'm riding a big board—I prefer a glider or a big twin like a Whale Shark. I have a little bit more fun just because I probably surf more off the back foot than I do in a walking-the-nose and all that kind of stuff.
**Michael Frampton**
So yeah. Same. Yeah. It's amazing if you got your—if you're used to it and you get your timing right, you can step back on an 11-foot board and do a cutback. And, like, it’s so satisfying. And you're right, the maintenance of the momentum of one of those big boards is such an incredible feeling. And it's amazing what sections you can make. And I've had some of the longest rides ever, oh, I bet, on what most people would see as unmakeable waves just by taking that high line and trusting it. It’s, uh—yeah, it's an incredible feeling.
**Matt Parker**
Riding gliders is like its own form of riding a foil board. It's like you’re almost—ride those boards, you ride those waves that, um, you know, no one else can really get into depth. Length of ride is insane on those.
**Michael Frampton**
And it’s, um—Joel Tudor says it’s the ultimate goal, right? Is Skip Frye.
**Matt Parker**
Oh, yeah. For sure.
**Michael Frampton**
It's the end game.
**Michael Frampton**
Uh, but it's—I mean, I've surfed that board in—I was a few years ago, we had it in Malibu, there's a Little Dume. There's an outer reef that breaks when you get those 18-second northwest swells. I took my glider out there and it was double overhead barreling, and I was like, wow, maybe I shouldn’t have brought this. But I managed to get such a high line and set the rail so early that I could just avoid the barrel and still have—and still catch the waves and have such a rad time. So they're such versatile boards if you know how to surf them.
**Matt Parker**
And you're doing your own step-offs.
**Michael Frampton**
Basically.
**Matt Parker**
Oh, it is towed-in out the back. Yeah. It's just like being able to paddle that fast. It's amazing.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. And that's the thing. You can paddle around so much. That’s what I like about them so much too. If you can see a section over there, you can just paddle over to it.
**Matt Parker**
And that board's going to last you forever. Twenty years from now, you'll still be surfing with it. You'll have that—you’ll have that thing forever. Yeah. Which is special.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Was that—so obviously it sounds like you've experienced riding—was that the inspiration for the Whale Shark? Riding gliders?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. Just—just because, like I was saying, I'm not a longboarder that's walking on the nose. And, you know, I’m more into just trim and glide and that feeling. And obviously you want to have a board that you can ride for fun on those longboard days when it’s really small and it's just soft and just little open faces. And so that was my preference, was to ride that style of board. And so it was—for me, it's like an extension of the fish. Obviously it’s taking a 5'6" fish and making it 10'6" and so on. So the same kind of principle is a little bit—for me, it’s just putting it with a really long rail and with a different, you know, sort of rocker to fit that wave face.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Just a side note for listeners—if you haven't ridden a longboard or a log, don't go out and buy a glider. Get used to a longboard first, because they are a lot of surfboard, and if you don't know how to ride them, you're just going to hurt someone.
**Matt Parker**
Your 9'4" was a perfect little entry point.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now, soft tops—I wanted to ask you about soft tops. You guys are making soft tops. I haven’t seen or touched or ridden one of your soft tops, but they look quite different to the Costco or the INT-style ones. What’s your point of difference with soft tops?
**Matt Parker**
We make them in a few different places. We have some that we make that are like injected foam. And so it’s where we actually took my shaped board and we made a mold—I shaped a few boards and we made molds off of these finished shaped boards. And that allows you to really put in design detail into that mold. And so like one of them has a little channel bottom, you can put real fin boxes in them. They're obviously not high-performance because they're foamies, you know what I mean? But there's a different mindset—there’s the right day for that, even if you surf well. Obviously for beginners they’re great because you can surf them into the sand and they just float, easy to catch waves. They’re kind of a little bit slower, so the pacing of them kind of matches the wave when you’re just kind of learning to ride the trim and ride the speed of the wave. So for people learning, it’s great. But for people that know how to surf, it's like—those days when it’s closing out and it’s on the sand, or you just want to go out and have fun and fool around, it’s something different. So those ones we do—and those are made in the U.S.—and there's just like injection foam molded soft tops.
**Matt Parker**
And then we also make some in Peru that are by the surfers in Peru, which are pretty sick. They’ve got a foam core and they have stringers, and they're kind of like a slick bottom, like some of the soft tops you see. But they actually have real shape and they have a better flex to them, and there’s real fin boxes. And those are kind of like a cool in-between where if you're like a kid or you're someone who’s kind of progressing, it’s a great board to kind of progress on because you can actually turn them and you can surf them pretty decently. And they’re less, you know, less expensive and all that. They’re made in a surf country by surfers, which is pretty cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I’ve got a 9'6" INT that I absolutely love. Um, and I've always...
**Matt Parker**
Ah, INTs got really good.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. And it lasted quite a while actually. It's still going. I actually surfed it every day when I was doing lessons for a long time, and then would just end up catching loads of waves on it. I love them so much because it’s a boat, right? The 9'6" INT—it’s a thick, big surfboard, but I think because it flexes so much, you can ride it in lots of different types of waves and actually really turn it much easier than the same amount of surfboard if it was a stiff sort of... Is that why? And then you watch Jamie O'Brien surf them at Pipe, like...
**Matt Parker**
Well, it’s just funny.
**Matt Parker**
Sometimes it looks like he has the right board for them, which is insane. He’s obviously a...
**Matt Parker**
Freak, but that’s...
**Matt Parker**
But to me the point of it is, it’s like—it’s a mindset thing. When you’re riding those boards, you’re not—you’re definitely not trying to win a contest when you're riding one of those. You're definitely going out there to have fun and kind of goof around, which is really good. It’s a good reset for surfing, I think, as you kind of, you know—you can’t try too hard. We just...
**Matt Parker**
Go out there and...
**Matt Parker**
It’s much easier to kind of give a wave away to someone else. You’re not going to be back-paddling people to get waves when you're on those. And so it's just a good mindset to reset and have fun on them. And that’s why it’s amazing how many sessions you have on those where you have a lot of fun, because your mindset is in a good place and you’re not overdoing it, you’re not overcooking it, and you have better perspective.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, yeah. I guess you're not too worried about it cracking if you mistime something close to the sand or the board hits you a little bit—it’s not as bad. Yeah, I’ve always enjoyed it. I’ve always enjoyed the novelty of riding a soft top. And it’s stoked to see you guys making some more refined-looking ones.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. I mean, the idea is obviously still there. The point is that they’re soft tops. But if we can kind of come at it from a different angle—there’s no need for us to go to the same factory that Wavestorm or Catch Surf makes and then just put different graphics on a soft top. Those already exist, right? We don’t need to just have our... That’s just another commodity. We don’t need to make another one of those. But if we can make something that’s a little unique or that offers something different from everything else that’s out there, and it gives a different feeling and we explore different things, then cool—we’ll try it out and we’ll give it a go.
**Michael Frampton**
Um, cool. Well, Matt, thank you so much for your time. I’ve got one more question I want to leave you with before we sign off, which is—what’s your best and worst surf advice that you ever received?
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. I would say—me too. But the worst would be...
**Matt Parker**
I mean, the...
**Matt Parker**
Best would definitely be, like we’ve been talking about, is like—I’ve said this before. This is kind of my running theme a little bit, as far as—like, choose the board. You know, when you're going to decide what you’re going to ride, like think about if there was no one else on the beach and no one else was out in the water—like you’re talking about that day when you're happy and you’re the only one out—what would you actually ride? What do you actually really have the most fun surfing on? And that could be a shortboard. It could be a high-performance shortboard. You could be—that’s the day you take it out because you're not, you know, you're kind of kooky on it but you want to get good, and that's what you want to get out of it. But to me, it’s like—pick the board that... Don’t do it for the approval of others. You know, like, choose what you really want to ride and what you really want to experience and just go do that and go have fun. And I think you'll have the most fun.
**Matt Parker**
Um, I’m trying to think, like what... maybe that, um, you need to have an epoxy board for a wave pool. That’s the worst.
**Matt Parker**
That’s—that’s it. I don’t know how applicable that is, but...
**Michael Frampton**
I think it's going to be more and more applicable very soon.
**Matt Parker**
Well, I think—and maybe that goes in line with what I think—there are in surfing... there shouldn’t be hard and fast rules. You know, sometimes there’s like these perceptions and there’s hard and fast rules, like this is what you’ve got to do and this is the way you’ve got to do it. And I don’t like... Surfing doesn’t have to—like who says? Who?
**Matt Parker**
It’s that way.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. There’s a famous surfer—I can't remember, is it Kelly Slater? I think he surfs a door.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You can—you can surf anything. Even an old door.
**Matt Parker**
Exactly. Exactly. I know—a table. I think he surfs a table, like upside down.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And isn't there a video with Taj Burrow and Chris Ward all surfing all sorts of objects? Yeah. So yeah, there’s no rules, right?
**Matt Parker**
Like, why are we doing this? What are we doing this for? We want to have fun. Just be out in the ocean.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Exactly. Uh, well, Matt, thank you so much for your time, man. Appreciate it.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah.
**Matt Parker**
Great to chat with you. Cool.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Simple as that. Thanks, man.
**Matt Parker**
Yeah. Good to meet you.
**Michael Frampton**
You too.

Matt Parker - Choosing Boards and Breaking Surfing Rules
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**97 Guy Kawasaki - Tech Guru Discovers Surfing at 60** Jun 25, 2024

Is it ever too late to start surfing? What if your best wave is still ahead—even if you’re in your 60s?
In this episode, legendary tech entrepreneur and author Guy Kawasaki shares his unexpected journey into surfing—starting at age 60. From battling Ménière’s disease to redefining success through grace, grit, and daily ocean immersion, Guy blends humor, humility, and hard-won wisdom that every surfer—young or old—can learn from.
Discover how Guy used dry-land training, grit, and daily practice to surf better despite late entry and physical limitations
Learn why grace in the lineup matters more than ego—and what seasoned surfers should really model for beginners
Hear how surfing helped Guy redefine ikigai, decision-making, and leadership—on the board and in life
Hit play now and hear how a Silicon Valley icon found deeper joy, humility, and life lessons in the ocean—and how you can too.
**Follow Guy Kawasaki:**
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guykawasaki/
Website: https://guykawasaki.com/
**Key Points**
Guy Kawasaki started surfing at age 60, inspired by his daughter's passion for the sport.
Guy Kawasaki took surfing lessons in multiple locations to accelerate his learning pace.
Surfing has significantly improved Guy Kawasaki's life despite his pre-existing Meniere's disease.
Guy Kawasaki believes that luck is a result of being prepared and taking advantage of opportunities.
Guy Kawasaki attributes his success in various endeavors, including surfing, to grit and a growth mindset.
Grace in surfing, according to Guy Kawasaki, is demonstrated by experienced surfers who help and encourage beginners rather than asserting dominance.
Guy Kawasaki reframes the concept of Ikigai as doing something you love despite not being good at it or getting paid for it.
Guy Kawasaki emphasizes the importance of making decisions right rather than constantly seeking the perfect decision.
The core message of Guy Kawasaki's recent book is that making a difference and improving the world leads to being recognized as remarkable.
**Outline**
**Guy Kawasaki's introduction to surfing**
Guy Kawasaki started surfing at the age of 60.
Kawasaki's daughter inspired them to take up surfing.
Kawasaki's parenting philosophy is to let their children determine what they should take up based on what they love.
Kawasaki took up hockey at 44 and surfing at 60 because that's what their kids are into.
**Kawasaki's approach to learning surfing**
Kawasaki took lessons in Hawaii, India, Santa Cruz, and Cowles at Jack's to accelerate their learning pace.
Kawasaki started with paddleboards and then transitioned to a narrow board.
Kawasaki's surf instructor established the pecking order in surfing, with paddleboarding being beneath prone surfing.
Kawasaki found the hardest part of surfing to be knowing where to sit and when to turn.
**Surfing's impact on Kawasaki's life**
Kawasaki surfs every day and finds it to be the most fun they can have legally.
Kawasaki has Meniere's disease, which causes sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, and hearing loss, but they still took up ice hockey and surfing.
Kawasaki sees surfing as a challenge and a way to prove that they can do things despite what others may say.
Kawasaki's dream is to be able to take four steps and hang 10 on the nose, but they are currently only able to take two steps.
**Kawasaki's writing and surfing**
Kawasaki believes they are a better writer than a surfer.
Kawasaki's book is succinct and to the point, explaining complex concepts in a simple manner.
Kawasaki's writing style is influenced by their experience in surfing, using surfing metaphors to explain life concepts.
**Life lessons from surfing**
Kawasaki believes that one should not wait for the perfect wave or opportunity in life, but rather take action and make decisions even if they are wrong.
Kawasaki sees luck as planting a lot of seeds and being prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.
Kawasaki's deafness in the water has some advantages, such as not being distracted by others yelling at them in the lineup.
Kawasaki's focus and concentration come from a form of OCD that allows them to lose touch with reality and be in a zone when they are focused on something.
**Kawasaki's dry land training for surfing**
Kawasaki practices pop-ups and constantly increases flexibility as part of their dry land training.
Kawasaki's goal is to hang 10 and then drop dead right after, as a way to achieve their dream.
Kawasaki has seen dead bodies being taken off the beach at Jack's and believes that is how they will be taken out if they achieve their goal.
**Commonalities among Remarkable People podcast guests**
The commonality among the 250 guests of Remarkable People podcast is that to be remarkable, one needs to have a growth mindset, be willing to pay the price, be gritty, and be gracious.
Grit is the ability to do something when one is not necessarily getting positive results or enjoying it, but is willing to pay the price.
Grace is the realization that one is successful in life and fortunate because of the help of teachers, coaches, mentors, and bosses, and the moral obligation to pay back society by opening doors for others.
**Grace in the surfing world**
Kawasaki believes that the better one is at surfing, the more gracious they should be.
Kawasaki has a theory that the middle ground is where one lacks grace, as they may feel like the big dog and try to take every wave.
Kawasaki admires surfers like Joel Tudor who surf gracefully and do not yell at others, even if they are dropped in on.
**Compassion as a combination of empathy and grit**
Kawasaki defines compassion as going from empathy to actually doing something for the other person.
Kawasaki believes that a compassionate person does something, while an empathetic person just feels something.
Kawasaki's definition of Ikigai is doing something that one is not good at, cannot get paid for, and may hate, but still does because they love it.
**Ellen Langer's influence on Kawasaki**
Ellen Langer made the observation that one should make their decisions right, rather than trying to make the right decision.
Kawasaki applies this to surfing by turning and burning and making the decision right, which means compensating by turning the board or paddling harder or softer.
Kawasaki believes that making decisions right is a prescription for how to lead a remarkable life.
**Meditation and Buddhism in Kawasaki's life**
Kawasaki does not practice meditation and is not a meditator, but believes that they were born with the ability to focus on something.
Kawasaki has a statue in the background of their sound studio, but it is not related to Buddhism.
Kawasaki is constantly experimenting with different backgrounds for their sound studio, spending hours trying to make it perfect.
**Message from Kawasaki's most recent book**
Kawasaki hopes that people realize that it's not about deciding to be remarkable, but rather making a difference and making the world a better place.
Kawasaki believes that people will think one is remarkable if they make the world a better place, rather than the other way around.
Kawasaki's focus is not on being remarkable, but on making a difference.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's guest is Guy Kawasaki. You may have heard that name. He's very famous in Silicon Valley, especially for his early role and involvement with Apple. He's gone on to do a lot of projects since then. Too many to mention in this short intro, but one of his most recent projects is a very successful 200-plus episode podcast called *Remarkable People*, and he recently released a new book called *Think Remarkable*. Based on those interviews, and the main reason that I wanted to get him on the show is because he started surfing at 60. Yes, six zero. Started surfing at 60. So yes, Guy has a very unique perspective on beginning surfing, and I was very excited when he accepted the invite to come on the show, and he did not disappoint. So without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Guy Kawasaki. Hello, Guy, how are you?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I'm good. I can hear you now. Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Excellent. And I've got you. Right. And it's recording. It looks like all the technical stuff is out of the way.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Don't get overconfident. The day is young.
**Michael Frampton**
It sure is. Well, and your lust for surfing. That's also quite young. Starting at 60. My gosh, that is. That's very late in life to start surfing. What inspired you to start?
**Guy Kawasaki**
What inspired me was that my daughter in particular became an avid and competitive surfer. And I kind of have a different parenting perspective and philosophy. I think many parents, what they do is they inadvertently or advertently force their kids to take up what they're interested in. So if you're a golfer, your kid's golf, you're a surfer, your kid's surf. If you are a, I don't know, physicist, your kids take up physics or violin or whatever. Yeah, in my family it worked differently. So rather than forcing the kids to take up what I loved, they would force me to take up—wait, I said that wrong—rather than I take up what I could—speak English. English is my first language—rather than me forcing them to take up what I love, I let they determine what I should take up based on what they love. And so they loved surfing and they loved hockey. So I took up hockey at 44, and I took up surfing at 60 because that's what my kids are into.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, I love that, you're a good dad and that's an awesome philosophy and I actually have the same philosophy. My kids got into football when they were quite young, and I just started playing with them, even though I never grew up playing it. I never liked the game, but now I actually love the game and have a strong appreciation for it.
**Guy Kawasaki**
So when you say football, you mean American oblong football or European-like round waffle? Oh okay. Okay. Soccer.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Because if you took up American football at a late age, it's hard to get 20, 21 other guys out there with helmets killing each other so.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. It's a rough sport. I mean, I grew up playing rugby, so I'm no stranger to that sort of world. But, it's not something you do when you're a—or certainly not something you take up when you're older. It's a brutal sport.
**Guy Kawasaki**
So I think.
**Michael Frampton**
That thing can be pretty brutal, too. I mean, I'm sure you've had some gnarly wipeouts in your learning curve.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, listen, my sweet spot is maybe 3 to 4 at the most. Okay? Like, I am perfectly happy at 1 to 2 ft. My daughter surfs at Mavericks and stuff, but that's not me, but I will tell you that, there have been times where in, like, a one-foot wave, I fall down and I lose perspective and reference and I'm like paddling, trying to get back up to the surface and I hit my head on the bottom because I was going the wrong way. I've done some very kooky things, I assure you.
**Michael Frampton**
So I'm interested to know, like, you're a smart guy. I'm sure when you decided to start surfing, what was your first entry point like? Did you get a lesson with someone? Did you just buy a board and jump in? How did you go about it?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Listen, when you start surfing at 60, well, one would hope that in 60 years you've acquired some kind of street smartness. So you figure out that, you're just not going to go to Costco and buy $150 board and then go out to Mavericks and decide to surf and, you know, with your goggles and your GoPro and your helmet and your zinc on your face. So the first thing I did was I took lessons. I took lessons in Hawaii, I took lessons in India, I took lessons in Santa Cruz. I took lessons at Cowell's and at Jacks. I kind of figured out that, when you start that late, you've got to accelerate the pace. And the way to accelerate the pace is to get instruction. Not by hanging out with Groms all day, trying to surf during the summer.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So you sort many different opinions on instructions as well. That's a great strategy. Was there one particular lesson that stood out to you?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Every lesson was difficult. I started paddle surfing. I don't know why I started paddle surfing, but anyway, so I started with paddle boards and then a surf instructor here in Santa Cruz who was coaching my daughter at the time, he definitely established the—should I say—pecking order in surfing, and let's just say that paddle boarding is beneath prone surfing. And so it was a constant humiliation. So at one point I just got tired of being humiliated. And I said, all right, so throw away the paddle, give me a narrow board, and off I go. He, for months, was pushing me into waves, because I don't know, to this day, I think the hardest thing in surfing is knowing where to sit and when to turn. It's just like I barely understand it, and when I'm out there and I'm with experienced surfers and they turn and they catch a wave that I don't even see the wave. I'm like, what are they turning for? And then not only that, they turn and they catch a wave that I barely can see. And they only paddle twice and I'm paddling like freaking 50, 60 times trying to get up there, it's a different world.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, it sure is. And you nailed it. I mean, no matter what level of surfer you are, getting into the wave or choosing the right wave and getting into it in the right spot, that's always the hardest part. Because once you're standing up, once you're standing up on the right part of the wave, surfing is really simple and quite easy.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a mystery to me. With surfing, there are so many variables, right? I mean, there's the wave. Well, even the wave, there's the height, there's the direction, there's the speed. Are you at the peak, are you on the shoulder. That's just the wave. And then you're going to think of the wind and you got to think of the other kooks in the water and then you got to worry about, we have a ten-inch fin and it's, it's negative one tide and all the kelp is sticking out. So that's not going to work. Well I mean there's so many variables. It's such a cerebral sport.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. Now has—and if so how has—surfing made your life better?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Oh absolutely. I mean, I surf every day. In fact, today I might surf twice. And here's like a Guy Kawasaki typical kind of story. So I have Ménière's disease. Ménière's disease has three symptoms, which is, sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, which is the ringing in your ear, and hearing loss. And so basically, my ears are all messed up, and it's not surfer ears or anything like that because I have only been surfing ten years, so it's not from surfing. This is a pre-existing condition. So if you said to somebody if you have middle ear issues and vertigo and deafness and tinnitus and all that kind of stuff, why don't you take up ice hockey and surfing? That's the perfect sports for you. The two sports that require balance the most I took up with the bad ears, huh?
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. So you like when someone tells you you can't do something that you see as a challenge?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I didn't listen. I mean, people have told me that I cannot do a lot of things, and quite frankly, they were right. So it's not a matter of proving them wrong. I will just say that, like the first time I played ice hockey, and the first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. It was like, Holy shit, this is like, where else can you get this feeling? It's like magical to be standing on a wave and somehow, like, you don't have to do anything, like nature is pushing you forward. In my case 12 to 15 miles an hour. I mean and you don't need a hill to do that, like skateboarding when you fall on the pavement, it's a lot different than falling in the water. So, surfing is just magic. It's the most fun I think you can have legally.
**Michael Frampton**
I agree, and so do all of our listeners. But it's also one of the—it's also one of the most challenging things that you can. I mean, have you—is—that's a good question. Is surfing the most challenging thing you've—that you do?
**Guy Kawasaki**
It is by far the most challenging thing I have ever tried to learn to do, by far, because there are so many variables. There's so many external variables and then there's your internal, there's like your body weight and your body type and your hip flexibility and, it's a very complex cerebral sport and I don't think people who don't surf, they don't appreciate how difficult it is because like basketball, you run and you jump in the normal course of life, right? I mean, ice hockey is like that, too. You don't skate naturally. I mean, that's something you have to learn the fundamentals. You have to learn. So I think part of the attraction for me, for surfing is that it is so hard. If I became immediately good at it, the thrill would be gone but it's taken ten years. I like my dream. Everybody has to have a dream, right? So my dream is to be able to take four steps and hang ten on the nose. Okay? In ten years, I'm now able to sometimes take two steps. So it's taking me five years per step. So I need another ten years to get the total of four steps. I hope I make it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Well, Jerry Lopez says that the first 20 years of surfing is just to test if you're really interested.
**Guy Kawasaki**
I interviewed Jerry Lopez for my podcast.
**Michael Frampton**
I know. I listened.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Great. You did a great job.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah, it's a funny story. You'll appreciate this surfing story. So this weekend we went to a surf meet in Huntington Beach. And on the sidewalk at Huntington Beach, there's like the Hollywood Walk of Fame. It's only the surfing Walk of Fame. And there's these, I think, brass plaques for these famous surfers. Right. So I saw Shaun Tomson's, I saw Layne Beachley, and I saw Jerry Lopez, and I happen to know all three people because of my podcast. I sent them all messages and they all responded, yeah. Shaun Tomson's response was, oh, they spelled my name right.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, cool. I interviewed Shaun a while ago for the podcast and actually see quite a couple of similarities between the book he wrote and the book you wrote. You chose not to make it a three-page behemoth full of fluff. And it's such a good book. It's so succinct. And it's the kind of book I'd rather spend 12 hours reading a good book three times, than 12 hours reading a long book once.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah, I hear you and one of the things I think about many nonfiction books is they take 200 to 300 pages to explain one idea. Right? So like you should—you should make a prototype very quick with the minimum features and get it out there and then if it doesn't succeed, bring it back and change it fast. Well, I just explained a 300-page book about minimum viable product and pivoting. Right? I mean, what else do you need to know about that concept besides what I just explained in 10s?
**Michael Frampton**
No, I really enjoyed your book. It's definitely one I'm going to go back and reread because it's so succinct.
**Guy Kawasaki**
I want you to know that I am a much better writer than a surfer, just FYI.
**Michael Frampton**
Has surfing taught you anything about other aspects of your life?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Ah, listen, I can interpret almost all of life with using a surfing metaphor. Right? So, one obvious one is you can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle and if you do that, I guarantee you will not catch any waves. Same thing applies to life, right? You can be waiting for that perfect company, that perfect product, that perfect service, that perfect co-founder, that perfect VC and you could, you know, try to make this perfect thing and then that means you will never do anything. Same thing as surfing. Another analogy I would say is that, yes, you try to pick the perfect wave and you turn at the perfect time at the perfect angle and all the perfect stuff. But I think one of the things I learned about surfing is that at some point you turn and burn and then you just need to make that decision, right? Even if it's wrong. Right? You just gotta compensate. You would like to be in the barrel on the face of the wave, but guess what? You're an idiot. You're in the white water, so make the best of it, right? And that's another metaphor for life, is that, you got to make decisions, right?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, you just kind of describe that in the book by saying, just plant many, many seeds because you don't know which one will eventually eventuate, and you catch lots of waves. That's the thing a lot. I've said before on this podcast is that when you watch a surfing movie, you've got to realize that might only be ten minutes worth of surfing that you're watching, but it took a surfer a year worth five hours a day of surfing to get those ten minutes worth of surfing.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah. You can apply that to almost everything in YouTube, right? So on the YouTube, when they show this is a guy hitting half-court shots, they shot him for five hours to get him making a half-court shot twice. Right. He just goes out and does every one like that? Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
And surfing is a lot about sort of being in the right place at the right time, and when you look at your career, I wonder how much of that's true in your career?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Oh, my career is more about being in the right place at the right time than it is about being in the right place because of my decision. Okay? I guarantee you that. I call this Guy's golden touch, which is not whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is whatever is gold, Guy touches.
**Michael Frampton**
I like that.
**Guy Kawasaki**
So, this is the equivalent of that in a surfing metaphor. Sometimes—and it's happened to me—sometimes you just expect to get clobbered, right? And so you turn your back to the wave and you lean back because you're about to get clobbered. And somehow the wave catches you and you get a ride without even trying to get the ride. Yeah, I'm telling you, a lot of people join companies that they had no freaking idea what it was going to do, and they turned out to be millionaires. Like, I don't know, what's this company Google do? I don't know, they needed a facilities manager and I didn't have a job, so I went to work for Google. I was the first Google facilities manager and now come to find out, my stock is worth $50 million. Yeah. I'm so smart now. There have been waves, I guarantee you, Michael. There have been waves that I caught that I didn't intend to catch.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
That happens all the time. And then you sort of, you turn up to the beach and without even knowing it's going to be good and it happens to be good. There's luck involved in everything.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
How do you define luck?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I think luck is, getting back to seeds. Luck is planting a lot of seeds, right? I mean, you don't get lucky by staying on the sand. You get lucky by being in the water. You got to plant a lot of seeds and then, even if you're lucky, you have to take advantage of that luck. So you can't be a dumbass. You can't be a lazy schmuck and luck comes upon you and everything just is automatic. Even being lucky, you need to work hard. You need to be prepared. You need to be ready. If your board is not waxed and you're not sitting in the water. Yeah, you could be the most lucky guy in the world. You're still not going to catch the wave.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And you have to be sort of looking for those opportunities as well, don't you?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I remember reading a book about luck and they did a test where they left a $20 bill sort of in the corner next to a sidewalk. And 95% of people just walk straight past. But then the person that noticed it considered themselves lucky, but really they were sort of open to or just being observant and looking for those opportunities.
**Guy Kawasaki**
So you're saying those people saw it and didn't pick it up or they didn't see it at all?
**Michael Frampton**
They didn't notice it? Yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Wow.
**Michael Frampton**
That wasn't directly in the middle of the sidewalk. Obviously, everyone would see it. But, the corner of it's just sticking out, and if you consider yourself a lucky person, then your peripheral vision is actually more likely to pick up on little things like that.
**Guy Kawasaki**
I hate to tell you, but this is—it's a related story, not necessarily the same story, but I'll tell you something—to this day, if I were walking down the street and I saw a penny on the ground, I would pick up the penny. I really would. I think that a penny doesn't make a lot of difference to anybody, but okay. But it's just the principle that you should never leave money.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, I like that. That's a good metaphor, too. Like, if you're surfing in a crowd and a wave comes your way and it's—you probably should just take it rather than wait for the next one.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, I have to say that, being deaf—I have a cochlear implant—that's like, we can do this interview, but you can't wear a cochlear implant in the water. So being deaf in the water, there are some advantages to that. So like, number one, Jerry Lopez says you should never be talking in the lineup. You should always be focused on surfing. Well, I hardly talk in the lineup because I cannot hear. So there's no sense talking, so that helps. And then let's just say that like every other kook in Santa Cruz, I drop in on people, okay? And then when they yell at me, I cannot hear. It doesn't bother me at all. They can yell all they want. I don't even hear.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. I wonder, do you think that there could be an advantage? Because then, you know it is an advantage.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah. Because like, if I heard the person yelling at me and telling me to go f myself, then it would get in my head and I'd be pissed off and there'd be an argument. And who knows where that would lead? But now I just like, I'm deaf. I literally—people have been like, jabbering at me and I said I'm deaf. I don't know what you're saying. I just paddle away. So if anybody's listening to this from Santa Cruz and you yell at me and I ignore you, that's what's happening.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you sometimes purposely take it out when you're doing other things to increase your focus?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Oh, my implant?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
No, I am blessed with a form of OCD that when I get focused on something, whether it's writing or editing or anything like that, I can be anywhere. I can be in the middle seat of Southwest Airlines in row 35, and I can concentrate. It's not a matter of what I hear, so I never have to do that. I just lose touch with reality. It's the same thing when I speak. I have gone on stage with a migraine headache. I've gone on stage feeling sick, but it just takes over me. And I'm just, like, in a zone. Deshaun Thompson zone.
**Michael Frampton**
Have you always been like that or is that something that you've had to work on and foster?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I can't remember. I think it just comes with repetition. I don't think I was born like that. I don't think anybody is born like that, but I certainly have it now.
**Michael Frampton**
Is there a bigger picture behind that though? Like, is there a driving force that sort of allows you to keep trudging forward?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, for a while, I have four kids. So for the longest time, my motivation was four tuitions. Now, as of next week, only one tuition will be in play, so that has reduced the pressure. But I guess I am just driven. I have a high need for achievement. Like this podcast, I do 52 episodes a year with no revenue.
**Guy Kawasaki**
On paper you'd have to say, Guy, why do you do that? Why do you kill yourself doing a podcast? And I'm just driven. It's just driven by achievement. And in a sense, the same thing applies for surfing. For me, I do a lot of dry land training and stuff because I'm 60. I got to catch up, right? So I can't just get out there and automatically assume everything's going to work. So, the secret to my success in life, surfing, or to the extent that I am successful in surfing, the secret to my life is grit. I am willing to outwork anybody.
**Michael Frampton**
There's also, if you're doing dry land training, then there's a lot of podcasts as well. There's a lot of preparation that goes into that.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yep. Nobody can out-prep me.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, okay.
**Michael Frampton**
I'm interested to know what does your dryland training for surfing look like?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Oh, okay. I could do even more, but I practice pop-ups. I'm trying to constantly increase flexibility. I do more than anybody I know, but I know I could do so much more. It's just that in the last year or so, this book has just taken over my life, too. But, I'm telling you, I am going to hang ten. I'm going to hang ten and then I'm going to drop dead right after that and everything will be fine.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, funny.
**Guy Kawasaki**
They're just going to get—I’ve seen them take dead bodies off the beach at Jax and the fire department comes and they put you in a little one of those. Is it a sleigh? What do they call it? One of those baskets. They bring the dead body up from the cliff in a basket, that's all. They're going to take me out of Jax, okay?
**Michael Frampton**
You’re die-happy then?
**Michael Frampton**
Death on the nose. Yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
He was so shocked. He hung ten. He had a stroke and died.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, well.
**Michael Frampton**
You get the right wave, get the right board. You'll get there for sure. It's a good goal.
**Guy Kawasaki**
I have to tell you, though, it's much more likely that I apparently hit my head on the ground and drowned than I hang ten on my last ride.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, I've got a feeling that you'll get there.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, yeah, I hope so.
**Michael Frampton**
So out of all—you’ve done so many podcast episodes, like over 200—is there any commonalities between all of these guests?
**Michael Frampton**
Oh yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, the commonality with 250 episodes reduced to—yeah, that's 5000 pages of transcripts. So that 5000 pages of transcripts has come down to 170 pages in a book. There's a lot of commonality and the lessons of the book reflect the commonality, and at the highest level, the commonality is that to be remarkable, you need to have a growth mindset. You need to be willing to pay the price and be greedy and finally, you need to be gracious to be remarkable. And that just happens over and over again with those 250 guests.
**Michael Frampton**
How do you define grit?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Grit is the ability to do something when you are not necessarily getting positive results and nor do you necessarily enjoy it, but you just are willing to pay the price.
**Michael Frampton**
So, is there an element of faith or hope that goes with that? Or delusion?
**Michael Frampton**
In my case, it's a delusion with surfing.
**Guy Kawasaki**
But you know what? One thing I figured out is it doesn't matter why you're gritty. It's just that you're gritty. You could be stubborn. You could be OCD, you could be delusional. You could be whatever. But as long as you just keep putting it out, that's all that matters.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, and then grace, how do you define grace?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Grace is when you come to this realization that you are successful in life, and you are fortunate because there are teachers and coaches and mentors and bosses. There are people who opened the door for you, and because somebody opened the door for you, you should open the door for somebody else. So it's a sense of moral obligation to the world to pay back society.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, how would you define grace in the surfing world?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I could. Okay, yeah. I could tell you some really great stories here. So at 38, there are some surfers who are really quite good. I would love to be as good as them. And they are so good that they can catch a wave and they can surf the whole face. They can catch it in front of Jack's house, and they could go all the way to like Purves or to like practically the Hook, right? They can take the face the whole way, and some of them do, and you know what? When you're at Jack's and there's a lot of beginners and novices, there are lots of people who are going to catch the wave and get in your way on the face and that's just the way it is at Jack's. Jack's is for kooks and beginners, right? And so these really good surfers, they can take the whole face and they get really pissed off with people and they yell at people and they scream and they push people off and all that, and I just don't understand that. And believe me, I've been one of those people who've been pushed and yelled at. And what I don't understand is like, okay, if you are so freaking good, go to First or Second or go to the Hook, but you're just trying to be a big dog in this little shit pond.
**Guy Kawasaki**
So like, what is your problem? And like, everybody's out there, they're just trying to have a good time, learn how to surf, catch a few waves. So like, what? Why are you being such an asshole? Then it's like, guess what? There's nobody from the WSL sitting up on the East Cliff looking for people for the WSL. So I hate to tell you, I can drop in on your face and I'm not going to affect your professional surfing career, so just shut up and go to Second or First. That's my attitude. They completely lack grace, and I have a theory that the better you are, the more gracious you are. It's the middle ground, right? So when you're really a beginner and lousy, you don't know what the hell you're doing. When you get kind of good, that's when you figure, I'm the big dog. I can get the face, I can hang ten, I can do cutbacks and all that. But then when you get really, really good, you say, I want to help other people enjoy surfing. And I'm going to help them and coach them and encourage them. You don't yell at them. The really good surfers don't yell at you.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I love that definition and I totally agree. Yep. Joel Tudor is famous for saying that the ultimate goal is Skip Frye.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Skip Frye was like that?
**Michael Frampton**
He still is.
**Michael Frampton**
He's still out there surfing every day. He's in his 80s and he just glides gracefully along on his.
**Guy Kawasaki**
But does he yell at somebody if a kook dropped in on him? No.
**Michael Frampton**
No, of course not.
**Michael Frampton**
He's been surfing so long that you just wouldn't. I think sometimes surfers also—I think a graceful surfer has the sort of demeanor about them that just you would feel bad dropping in on them because they're so graceful and they're not taking every wave. Does that sort of make—yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
But if you're out there trying to take every wave and yelling at people, you're actually more likely to get dropped in on again and again and again. So thank you. Thank you CCTV.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Oh, God.
**Michael Frampton**
I think part of this is a lot of those people, they surfed 20, 30 years ago when there just was one-tenth of the amount of people in the water, and they kind of expect it to be like that still, even though—
**Michael Frampton**
You're right, you're right. They can go for it. They can drive half an hour and go somewhere else where it's more difficult and where there are less people.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Half an hour, they could paddle 500 yards to the right and they could be someplace else like that, but I think a lot of those people, they realize that, at Jack's, they stand out, but if they went to First or Second, they would be at the bottom of the pile again, right? And they would be yelled at, not doing the yelling, and they cannot adjust to that.
**Michael Frampton**
So yeah, that doesn't feed their ego.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yeah. The Second Peak is my Mavericks.
**Michael Frampton**
That's—yup. Okay.
**Michael Frampton**
So that's grace, and well, I quite like how you've defined compassion as a combination of empathy and grit. I really liked that definition. Can you speak a bit more on that?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, the empathy part is easy, right? I mean, when you think of compassionate people, they can empathize. They can feel what you're feeling. They can understand, they can relate, right? But the difference between empathy and compassion, I think, is that you want to go from empathy to compassion, which is the higher level. It means that you not only feel for the other person, you actually do something. So a compassionate person does something and an empathetic person just feels something, and that's the difference.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. That's—so it comes back to doing again.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yep.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Guy Kawasaki**
That's a recurrent theme in my books.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I also really liked your Ikigai. You sort of—I like how you reframed that.
**Michael Frampton**
Sort of do what you love, right?
**Michael Frampton**
And then be willing to improve, to go push through the shit sandwich to improve, but also to not expect to get paid for it.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, see, I think that—now listen. I am Japanese American, but I don't want to give you the impression that I spent 20 years studying with Buddhist monks, and I truly understand Japanese and all that, because I'm just as American as Donald Trump Jr. But I'll tell you something that lots of people define Ikigai as—you draw three circles, which is what you love to do, what you're good at doing, and what you can get paid at, and in the middle of those three is what your Ikigai should be, because you can get paid, you like it, and you're good at it. I disagree with that definition. My definition is that Ikigai means that you are not good at it. You cannot get paid at it, and you may hate it because you're not good and not getting paid at it, but you still do it, and that for me is surfing, right? I'm not good at it. I love doing it. Sometimes I hate it and I'm never going to get paid for it. So if you're under those conditions, if you still surf every day, you could probably bet that it's your Ikigai or something you truly, truly love, because it's not because it's the money. It's not because it's easy. It's only because you love it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I really like that. It's a good twist on—because I was very aware of Ikigai. I think everyone is nowadays. It's become quite part of pop culture, but it was a really good reframing. I really liked that. Allan Langer.
**Guy Kawasaki**
The psychologist.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. How did she change your perspective on things?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Okay, so Ellen Langer. She made a brilliant observation to me that we spend so much time trying to make the right decision, but what we should do is make our decisions right. And going back to that surfing analogy—so, yeah, spend your whole life or the whole session in the water trying to make the right decision, but what you should really do is turn and burn and make that decision right, which means that you can compensate by turning the board or paddling harder or softer or popping up, fading and then going right, or who knows, right? But Ellen Langer is all about, yes, take your best shot but then make your decision right, and I think that is a very good prescription for how to lead a remarkable life. You've got to make your decisions right.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you mean by that, as in, once you've made a decision to accept it and sort of trust that it is right?
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, I don't know about trust, but I think the reality is that you never can make the exact perfect decision because the future is unknowable and there's so many variables. So I'm not saying that if you got married to somebody and that person is physically abusive—I'm not saying stick in the marriage and make the decision right, okay? There are some things. There are limits to these things, right? But to think that the grass is always greener and to think that perfection lies in the next wave, not this one—I think that's suboptimal. At some point, you just got to make it right.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, so it's kind of about being present really.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Yes. Yes.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, interesting. Is meditation part of your life?
**Guy Kawasaki**
No, no. Like, Marc Benioff in his interview talked about meditation and all that. I don't have time for meditation, right? I'm a doer. I'm not a meditator. What can I say? Hmm. Maybe I should meditate more. Maybe I could hang ten.
**Michael Frampton**
I would argue that you said yourself, earlier that even in the middle seat, in cattle class on an airplane, you have the ability to focus on something.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Most people meditate in order to get more of that, I think.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, then I was born with it.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You're lucky. I see the statue in the background and is Buddhism part of your life?
**Guy Kawasaki**
No, it's just I am in a closet that I've made into a sound studio, and I wanted to have an interesting background. So, I have tried dozens of things I like. I have this lamp, I have this fake flower. I have fake flowers. I have the lamp, I have bamboo, I have vases, I've tried all kinds of stuff. Yeah, I'm constantly experimenting to get—like, you have that surfboard back there, but I don't have space for a surfboard.
**Michael Frampton**
So you're a little bit of an interior designer.
**Guy Kawasaki**
You know what? I don't want to tell you how many hours I have spent trying to make a good background, putting all this soundproof foam, getting this stuff here—like, it would probably be measured in days, in days.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, no. It's a good thing. I think it looks good and your voice is coming across with no echo. So, well done.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Well, I once spent a few weeks trying to make sure that the video and audio were perfectly synced because I was getting a case where the audio was about two frames behind the video, and the way you test that is you do something like you clap and you see when your hands hit, and then you look and you see if there's a spike of the clap matching that exact moment, right? And it wasn't. It was two frames off, and that just freaking drove me crazy, and then finally I found something that you can add frames of delay for the video or, I don't know, vice versa, whatever it was. Yeah, I'm a little nuts that way.
**Michael Frampton**
Oh, you got to get that sort of stuff right though. I think it does matter. Is that sort of a bit of a perfectionism that you speak about there?
**Guy Kawasaki**
A bit. I'd say there's a freaking wheelbarrow full.
**Michael Frampton**
If there was one message that you hoped someone got out of your most recent book, what is that?
**Guy Kawasaki**
I hope people realize that it's not about deciding you want to be remarkable. The way it works is you make a difference. You make the world a better place. And if you make the world a better place, then people will believe you are remarkable. So it's not a which came first. It's just an order. You make the world a better place. People will think you're remarkable. So the focus is not on being remarkable as much as making a difference.
**Michael Frampton**
I love that. Guy, thank you so much. Congratulations on.
**Guy Kawasaki**
I might go surfing a second session.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome.
**Guy Kawasaki**
Thank you.
**Michael Frampton**
I'll have links to all of, everything of Guy in the show notes. Uh, thanks for tuning in, everyone.
**Guy Kawasaki**
All right. Thank you very much for having me. All the best to you.
**Michael Frampton**
All right. Thank you, Guy. Awesome. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.

97 Guy Kawasaki - Tech Guru Discovers Surfing at 60
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**96 Nic Laidlaw - From Hawaii to Home: How the Ocean Connected Me to My True Self** Jun 25, 2024

What if true health, strength, and wisdom didn’t come from hustle culture—but from saltwater, stillness, and honest self-reflection?
In this powerful episode, Nic Laidlaw opens up about the healing power of surfing, parenting three boys, and his transformation from competitive surfer to movement mentor and retreat leader. Whether you're recovering from injury, rethinking your lifestyle, or questioning modern definitions of masculinity, Nic’s insights will shift your perspective on what it really means to be a healthy human.
Learn how Nic recovered from a major knee injury using holistic tools like breathwork, nutrition, and cold therap
Discover why nature—not hustle—should be your foundation for health, strength, and masculinity
Explore the value of surf retreats, mentorship, and spiritual connection in shaping the next generation
Tap play now and discover how to build deeper health, purpose, and stoke—through surfing, self-awareness, and slowing down.
Nic's website: https://www.balancedstudio.com.au
Nic's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/balancedstudio/?hl=en
Nic's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzvueZRjFkiDFuk1Ial0Oqg
**Key Points**
Influence from studying with Paul Cech and the impact of his holistic and nuanced approach to health and wellness.
Importance of leadership by example, particularly in parenting, as emphasized by Nic and his approach to mentoring young men.
Nic's recent knee injuries, recovery process, and the accelerated healing regimen he followed, including physical therapy and lifestyle adjustments.
Nic's approach to running health retreats, emphasizing holistic wellness, connection with nature, and the importance of nutrition.
The impact of influential figures like Tom Cowell on Nic's life and work, highlighting the value of mentorship and community in personal growth.
Discussion on the crisis of masculinity and the importance of celebrating and teaching traditional masculine values in a balanced and healthy way.
Reflection on big wave surfing as an initiation into manhood, emphasizing the lessons learned from pushing personal limits and confronting fears.
Nic's journey from competitive surfing to establishing his own studio, driven by the desire to surf every day and work with people.
**Outline**
**Surfing and Personal Growth**
Nic shared their transformative experience of going to Hawaii at 17, which significantly impacted their perspective and relationship with nature.
Nic emphasized the powerful influence of the ocean and nature on personal growth and self-awareness.
**Surf Mastery Coaching Program**
Michael introduced a six-week online coaching course focused on the fundamentals of surfing, aimed at self-taught intermediate surfers and applicable to all levels.
The course is a summary of lessons learned through years of experience as a surf coach and personal surfing journey.
**Surfboards and Surfing Locations**
Nic and Michael discussed various surfboards, including Gary McNeil boards and their personal experiences with different models.
They shared experiences surfing in locations like San Diego, Encinitas, and the east coast of Australia, highlighting the unique characteristics of each location.
**Paul Cech's Influence and Teachings**
Nic discussed the impact of studying with Paul Cech, emphasizing the importance of foundational principles in health, movement, and lifestyle.
Nic highlighted the concept of being a 'wounded healer' and the need for a nuanced, non-linear approach to health and wellness.
**Parenting and Leadership**
Nic and Michael discussed the importance of leading by example in parenting, emphasizing that children emulate parental behavior more than verbal instructions.
They shared their experiences and philosophies on raising children, including the value of exposing them to nature and fostering a love for the ocean.
**Injury Recovery and Health Practices**
Nic detailed their recovery process from a knee injury, including a full MCL tear and partial ACL and PCL tears, and the importance of consistent movement and health practices.
They discussed the use of ice baths, saunas, breathwork, and nutrition in their recovery regimen.
**Retreats and Health Optimization**
Nic explained their approach to running health and wellness retreats, focusing on embodiment of principles, connection with nature, and community.
They discussed the integration of movement, nutrition, and breathwork in their retreats, aiming to help participants optimize their health and well-being.
**Influences and Mentorship**
Nic mentioned influential figures in their life, including Paul Cech, Ido Portal, and Tom Cowell, highlighting their impact on Nic's personal and professional growth.
They emphasized the importance of seeking out mentors and the value of community and support in personal development.
**Masculinity and Cultural Balance**
Nic and Michael discussed the crisis of masculinity and the importance of celebrating and balancing masculine and feminine strengths within society.
They highlighted the role of nature and physical challenges, such as big wave surfing, in the initiation and growth of young men.
**Personal Aspirations and Lifestyle**
Nic shared their aspiration to surf every day and the importance of carving out a lifestyle that allows for personal passions and family well-being.
They discussed the concept of true wealth as health, exercise, and organic food, rather than material possessions.
**Transcription**
**Nic Laidlaw**
My biggest one was going to Hawaii when I was 17. I felt like I just came back a different person. Because it was in that six weeks, there's just so many times where I pushed myself beyond where I thought I'd go. The relationship that I formed with the ocean, it never failed to make me feel so small in the scheme of things that it feels like it really puts you in your place. So that's like, I'll speak of that with my relationship to the ocean and to nature in general. It's like, it's so powerful that it's hard to actually measure how powerful it is. But you don't know until you're in an ocean that's big enough to squish you if it wanted to.
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That is a couple of quotes from Nic Laidlaw, today's guest. Nic is a health coach, a movement coach, a ridiculously good surfer, a father, and a man full of wisdom. We discuss health and wellness, Paul Cech, leadership, parenting, connecting with nature, injury recovery—knees in particular—health retreats, mentors, masculinity, big wave surfing as an initiation to manhood, plus much more. You can follow and find out more about Nic at Balanced Studio on Instagram and balancedstudio.com.au. And of course, links to all that in the show notes. But before I fade in that interview, I want to let you guys know about my coaching program which starts next week. It's a six-week online coaching course teaching the fundamentals of surfing, mainly targeted to the self-taught intermediate but applicable for all levels. And it's a summary of all of the lessons that I've learned through doing this podcast and working on my own surfing and as a surf coach over the last 10 years. Spaces are limited. It is already half full, so if you are interested, to find out more just go to surfmastery.com, and of course links in the show notes. But without further ado... I will give you my conversation with Nic Laidlaw. Take care, man. Good, how are you?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Good thanks, I recognise that surfboard.
**Michael Frampton**
Far, yeah.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Gary McNeil? Is that right?
**Michael Frampton**
It sure is. A surfer's eye is always drawn to that.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Shape. Yeah, 100%. And then that right-hand rip bowl in the background. Ha.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that board... It's been a while, bro. It's been ages. I was living in Avalon when I bought that board. It was... yeah. It is a gem, you know, it was just the stock board. It was just on the shelf at Ripco Narrabeen.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, I'll get one day again, McNeil, for sure. I love all the sacred geometry and all the principles he speaks about. It's so.
**Michael Frampton**
Awesome. Yeah. I actually had a different one that I bought from Patagonia in San Diego, a different model, slightly bigger one. And I left it on the sidewalk outside. I was surfing Swamis in San Diego. I was getting changed and it was busy and I had other boards in the car. And I drove off and I said, no, I left that board on the sidewalk. Did a U-turn, came back, it was gone. So someone out there—however long it took me to drive around the block. But you know what it's like, you know what it's like, you can't just do it. There's a...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, you got to get back on the highway pretty...
**Michael Frampton**
Much. Okay, yeah, you got it. So it would have taken me at least seven minutes probably.
**Nic Laidlaw**
That's awesome. Devastating.
**Michael Frampton**
So someone out there has a Gary McNeil that they picked up for free. I hope they're enjoying it.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Guiltily shredding it. Those bastards. That would suit the energy of those waves over there, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Hey. Yeah, for sure. Everyone's into alternative boards over there.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Well, it seems a bit, especially that part of the coast in like from Carlsbad or even a bit further down there. It feels like it's just a bit softer, maybe. Or maybe that was just the energy that I got when I was there. But it just feels like a little bit slopier, a little bit slower moving waves than what I'm used to.
**Michael Frampton**
It's different. Perhaps. Yeah, it's definitely a bit more gentle than the east coast of Australia. User-friendly is a bit of a word. Yeah, that's...
**Nic Laidlaw**
It. Yeah, I reckon. Sick fun. I had so many fun waves down there around Encinitas and even further towards Mexico. Yeah, so much fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's paradise around that part of the world.
**Nic Laidlaw**
It is. It is. It's a really good setup.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, not just for surfing, just the vibes and everything.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. No, my wife Maddie and I traveled there because I went there to San Diego to study with Paul Cech. And so we spent like six weeks just traveling up the coast and back down again and it was so much fun. We both had heaps of fun waves. I took, so we took...
**Michael Frampton**
What board were you riding? And you were surfing over there then?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Because it wasn't just a surfing trip, we did like state parks and went into the cities and just explored around. So we took two boards. I took a like a 6'2", kind of thick single fin. And then we had a five and really wide, really flat twinny that could be converted into a quad. So it was kind of like Maddie and I could both ride either of those boards. Yeah. And I spent most of the time on the twinny that could be converted into a quad. Frank Tachibana shaped both of them, and he's a mate of mine and hand-shaped them both. And they're fun boards. I still ride his Fishes and his Shorties, so they're epic. And I probably have gone a bit—if I was there again, I'd probably ride more of like a long fish, I reckon. For those points around Santa Cruz and stuff. Yeah, good call. Pleasure Point. Yeah, I'd probably have a long fish these days if I was back there again. I did some body surfing too. We had such fun, just a fun time. Yeah. California was really good to...
**Michael Frampton**
Us. Yeah. So you were there doing the Paul Cech stuff. What's the biggest takeaway from doing the Paul Cech stuff?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Well, every time I've studied with Paul Cech face-to-face... He kind of reiterates a similar sentiment of like, you hear... because you want to help people and you want to help, you know, with the healing process of people or the optimization of your client's health. But what we're really here for is, you know? And so he pretty much uses the foundation principles that he teaches, whether it's about the scientific movement principles or whether it's the holistic lifestyle principles. The principles of health are very basic. It's like the mental, emotional, and the thought process. It's hydration. It's the rhythms that we sleep in. It's the breathing. It's the movement. It's the nutrition. That's our chemistry. So he'll kind of lay down those foundations and see how it applies to you with a series of, you know, sharmatic work, breath work, infant development, movement patterns, obviously nutrition, gut health and all of those things and just applies protocols to you and asks a lot of questions of you in order to understand your own physiology a lot better. And then... yeah, then the idea is to pretty much open the textbook when you get home and see how you can further delve into those principles and share them with your clients. So that was a long way of answering. I think the biggest takeaway is like full acceptance that we're all wounded healers, you know? So like that's... and he exemplifies that with every word that he speaks, you know? So that we're all on our own journey and that we don't need to be like perfect or we don't need to know everything in order to help other people. Another thing is it's a very nuanced world and we need to stop thinking in a linear way—pathway—just like we need to stop moving in a linear pathway. And how you do anything is how you do everything, so just broadening our ideas and our headspace to a more nuanced existence. And then, you know, that was in 2015–16. Since then we had children, crazy bushfires in Australia, we had all the whole COVID debacle, and it's like that really put me in good stead just to be able to sit back and watch and just be accepting of other people's views and behaviors, whether it's along the same line of my thinking or not. You know, it's just that there's a... everything starts with Paul Cech with the yin and the yang. And that's why I've got that on the logo of my own business as well, because it's such a broadly painted brush, that symbol, that symbology. But it's so deep in its essence that you just cannot have one existing, dancing, coexisting without the other. You know, we need the sun to be setting for us to rest and regenerate so that we can go and get it the next day. We need the winter cooler months so we can go and really send it and get, you know, put ourselves on the line and get pitted and have a really nice rugged winter. Then we can come into summer and just cruise. And, you know, we need the fiery relationships in order to cater to our softer side. Like it's all... it's like a fully embodied concept. And he's spent a lot of his life studying the yin-yang philosophy. And I just think that applies to everything, you know? And so he's imparted that in a really broad way to me just to help me being less dogmatic. I think as humans, we're drawn to like wanting a parameter to work or work with or to work to have us guide us. He just blows that out the window and is like, "No, sorry. It's not that easy." You need to be—it's not need to be—but it might be helpful to be more open. More open than that, you know, less discerning than that. You know, discernment is certainly something he's very good at, because he doesn't suffer fools. But at the same time, it's just like, it's not as... it's not the easiest path to walk and live and talk and, you know, with a truly open mind and an open approach and a curious approach to things. But, from the living example of how I'm trying to do it and how I'm trying to impart that on my children. And to a certain degree, the studio that I run. You know? And it's not as easy for people to grasp and get in the door straight away. Or for kids, you know, especially, you know, kids, they want discernment. They need discernment sometimes. And that's important. But overall, giving them less direct answers and encouraging them to think for themselves, I think it's going to... we'll see. They're only four now, but we'll see. I think it's going to foster, you know, a broad creative mind.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, well, what's inherent in the way Paul Cech is—well, what he imparted to you and his students—was the necessity for leadership by example. Whereas you're there to work on yourself first and foremost.
**Nic Laidlaw**
100%, dude.
**Michael Frampton**
And that's with kids. It doesn't matter what you tell your kids, does not matter what you tell them. They'll do what you do—monkey see, monkey do.
**Nic Laidlaw**
A hundred percent. They hear you to a degree, but they see you more than anything. They see it, you know, and it's, you know, how you treat, how the house, how the vibration of the household is, you know, how you treat other people in the house, you know, how I, how my wife and I relate and connect, and that's what they're seeing. And then how we connect to them, that's what they see and feel. You know, that's their language of like, of a reality to a certain extent, you know? Your parents are just everything for those first, those formative years until you start getting out in the world more. And you're kind of demonstrating what's, you know, like I hate to say it, but it's like what truth is. Because even if it might not be the most correct in the scheme of things, or it might not match up with other people's value systems, that's all they have as their examples in front of them. And so this, I remember, you know, I just thought everything my parents told me as a kid was gospel. And then you start seeking out mentors, you start seeing what your mates are doing, what their parents are doing. And it's like, okay. And the world begins to broaden naturally, which is great. But at a very young age, you kind of need that just solidarity from your folks, your parent or your parents, just to... yeah, show you the way, as in... not by what you say, but by the way that I live.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. So three boys?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. Three big... big energy boys.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. That's something, that's another passion we share.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yes. You got... you do have three boys?
**Michael Frampton**
All boys? Yeah, three boys.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. Yeah, right. Wow. It's wild. And how old are yours?
**Michael Frampton**
So 12, nine, and eight.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Wow, bro. That's... they're four and a half.
**Michael Frampton**
Amazing. And how old are yours now?
**Nic Laidlaw**
They're turning five this year. Yeah. Yeah, so we had them all at once.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. Triplets. That's awesome.
**Nic Laidlaw**
I know, dude. It has been absolutely nuts. You know? These last five or six years since it all went down and we found out that we were having triplets and then we were having three boys. And it's like, wow, I feel like I'm just landing now. To a degree, it's still landing. I still can't believe it. But then there's some moments where you're just like, look how big they are. We went surfing together on the weekend and had so much fun. I got down there and I'm like, I got to go run, grab my board up on the hill. And just getting on, you know, having them on the front of the board and pushing, like getting paddling the waves together and just like watching their little, you know, their bodies trying to stand up and trying to grapple with it, and then watching the other two on the shore, just getting smashed and just coming up. They're just so... I think because I haven't necessarily got them surfing early, but I've got them in the ocean early, and they're just, they've got their little life jackets on, their weddies, and they just, like, they just get so pumped on the shorey and they just love it, you know? It's... I think it's been demonstrated from early on that the ocean's pretty safe for them. Now they're so confident. I'm trying to teach them a bit more respect because they're so little still. But they've always just felt safe with me and Maddie in the ocean. So they don't mind getting a pounding. And I just think that's going to set them up so well if they do decide to surf when they're a bit older. Just to not be too adverse to coming unstuck or getting flogged every now and then.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and that's the right attitude. As long as they feel comfortable at the beach, I think that's enough. If you're a surfer and you have kids, that's the bar. Just have them enjoy the ocean or the beach itself.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Exactly. Just enjoying nature. We spend just as much time up at our national, you know, West Head, the national park in Sydney. We spend just as much time up there getting in the bush and getting in the creek there as we do the ocean. But more than that, yeah, for one thing, I'd love them to just feel comfortable and love the ocean, whether they surf or not. But more than even expanding upon that, I just want them to be in awe of nature, just like me and Maddie are, just like me and my wife are, you know, just because it gives us so much, you know. So to form that relationship from an early age, I think, yeah, they're doing pretty well.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I'm reading a book by Steven Rinella about getting kids more into nature. It's really...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Good. Cool. And I bet there's a lot of practices or ideas that you've probably already implemented that you'll be like giving yourself a bit of a pat on the back.
**Michael Frampton**
Definitely. But then a lot of different things, even just like you're saying, like your kids should know the species of every flora and fauna in your backyard, for example.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Like just something as simple as that just helps them engage with that little part of their nature on a deeper level. Because, you know, you and I, we have access to a decent vehicle in nature, but he's speaking to people that have an apartment in New York, you know, where they live.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Absolutely, I think that's where you start, you know? For sure, because that's realistic. But I love that concept as well, and it makes me think, you know, I'm sure everyone's got, your three kids have got their own flavors and things that they're drawn to more or less, but one of our boys, River, he's just so into animals, creatures, nature, and he wants to know every bird that's around, and he does know every bird that's around. It's the same with other ground animals. When we go down south, and wallabies, the kangaroos and stuff, he just rocks, you know, like there's something innate in some of us that just are drawn to these creatures, and it really feeds this hunger he's got for knowledge without him knowing that it's a hunger for... I love that.
**Michael Frampton**
Knowledge? Yeah. I love that.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Pretty epic.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So how's... what have you been up to surfing-wise? You're still surfing heaps?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, well, I'm actually in week 10 of a full MCL tear and a partial ACL and PCL tear. So my whole knee—ACL at the front, I know you know—but ACL at the front, MCL is the inside of the knee, and then the back of the knee. So I had a jiu-jitsu accident, I'll call it, when sparring with another member of the gym. And... it's just super unfortunate what happened, but essentially I hyperextended my knee and just heard a myriad of pops. And so I was just completely out for a while. But in saying that, just this weekend gone by, I had my first... I'm not meant to surf till like week 16, so I'm hoping my physio is not going to hear this, but I got to week 10 and I did. On Sunday morning, I woke up and North Ave, like where I live, there's this little left hand that when the bank's good—the sand's really good at the moment—just breaks so far out, just tapering down the beach. And I was just, the last two weeks, I'm like, I'm feeling dangerously good, you know? And I know the ligament's healed because I know how to test it and I can feel it. There's still a bit of muscle imbalance and I'm still getting my range back, but I know that the ligament's healed and I've been training my ass off, you know? To get back in the ocean. Because you know what? As soon as this accident happened, I was on the deck and I've been loving my jiu-jitsu, like doing juey as much as I've been surfing, you know? But as soon as that accident happened, I was just longing for surfing. And I just felt devastated about... not about jiu-jitsu, not about even the work implications—they came later—but like, being a provider and having to run two businesses and kind of keep that going was one thing as well. But like the thing that came to my heart as soon as I did the injury was just like, I love surfing and autumn's around the corner. And I was just devo, you know? So I worked my ass off when it was time to train. And I got to the beach the other day and North Ave looked really fun and really little. And I was like, I'm just going to have a little stretch on the beach and see how I feel. And it felt good. And I was like, I'm going to go for a jog and just see how I get to, you know, like jog from one end of the beach and like start kicking my... like doing, getting my knees high, starts opening my hips. And I'm like, it feels pretty good. I'm like, I'm just going to park this idea and see what happens. And then later that day, my dad calls me. He's like, "Hey, do you want me to take the kids for a few hours? We're free." I was like, that's exactly what I want you to do. So I put my knee brace on and got out there on a longboard. And then I surfed for three days consecutive. It was just so fun. Like, fucking hell, it feels so... when you haven't been... on a wave going fast. I was riding my 10-footer, like my big wave board. And I was just trimming, but it just felt... so, like, made me so giddy. It was just the best. So yeah, so I'm just reentering the ocean and I'm loving it, bro. But yeah, before that I was surfing a bunch, but training, jiu-jitsu, parenting, running the business and... but this has just given me... and yeah, I can be complacent when the waves are small or when the waves are shitty and stuff. Like I felt that over the last few years and just kind of hang out for doing strike missions down the coast. And all those kind of things. But since this injury, I'm like, I just... all I want to do is surf, you know? Whether it's one foot or 12 foot, I just want to be out there, you know? So yeah. I've got an even new kind of surfing that's been there for me, you know, my whole life in any instance. And this 10 weeks out, it's just really, like, galvanized how much I... how good the ocean is to me and just the relationship that I want to continue having with it, you know? Just so nice. So I'm frothing, dude. Just back in the water and I'm frothing.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, that's good to hear, man. And I love your honesty around how surfing was like your first thought. Like... and you're motivated. Like it's honest and it's true, you know? And it's... I mean, that's what motivated you to do, I'm guessing, an hour and a half at least worth of movement every day to keep the blood flow and the healing juices going to the right area. And that 16 weeks that the physio gave you is based upon people doing 10 minutes a day, not two hours a day. So, you know, of course your healing is going to be quicker. Yeah.
**Nic Laidlaw**
It really does. Without being arrogant, it does feel like that, you know. And I've had just up to like 90 days in a row in the ice bath. Having like, you know, three saunas a week, icy every day, breathing, meditating, moving, you know, and just eating shmiko. And yeah, it's great. It was just a really good thing to get me on the trajectory, like to just realign your trajectory of just like good, clean living, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I mean, if you're in the NRL, it would have been six weeks before you were back to playing because you would have been on the compression machines, you would have been ice, hot-cold therapy, multiple massages a day, chef. Yeah. You know, you would have healed even faster. Those guys heal ridiculously fast because of their access to modern technology.
**Nic Laidlaw**
It's true. Yeah. And I really invested in it because health's number one. Without my vessel, it's like I'm not... you know, it's a lot, it's challenging to do what I do for a living and everything. But yeah, that's it. I was getting treatments every week. You know, I was getting either physio or osteo and massage every week just to keep my pelvis aligned, keep my back feeling good. All of those things. So stoked with how it's all gone, man.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I feel you on that. I had my ACL surgery back in 2002.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yes, I remember you talking about.
**Michael Frampton**
This. Yeah, been through the knee stuff a lot. And I just recently had to go to the specialist about six months ago because of knee pain come back and it's bone on bone now, which is typical, you know, for if you have a... you know, you get about 20 years out of an ACL surgery before your cartilage wears out just because of those extra little movements that happen. It's back foot.
**Nic Laidlaw**
So intricate, isn't it? Was it your back foot or front foot? Makes it harder. I'm lucky, unfortunately, it was my front foot. So yeah, you would have just done a lot more torsion to that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Exactly. But you'd be surprised what your body responds to, you know. Even though the cartilage is not there, scar tissue forms. So it's not literally bone on bone unless you do too much. And that scar tissue, if you do more work than the scar tissue has time to heal over, then that's when inflammation really starts to come back. So I find if I just worked on my balance, I worked on my balance and up and just backed off how much surfing I was doing.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Just didn't... just stabilize, was cranked equilibrium.
**Michael Frampton**
And it's sort of... it's found its... yeah, it feels like it did years ago. It's fine.
**Nic Laidlaw**
That's great. And the body's incredible, how it adapts as well. It's like, I don't think—because I chose not to get surgery on the MCL. ACL is different, I believe. But I chose not to get surgery on my injury, and it's like thinking about it and discussing it with my osteo, it's like it wouldn't... it's not going to look good on an MRI ever again, I don't think, but the tissue has an amazing capability to reorganize itself and restructure itself to the imposed demands, right, that we put on it. And if we can do that in an intelligent way, it's like the body is actually a healing machine. It's made to heal. It's not going to be symmetrical, but we're not symmetrical. So it has that way of adapting and healing pretty...
**Michael Frampton**
Well. Not only is it made to heal, but even something like if you'd torn your ACL completely, that doesn't heal.
**Nic Laidlaw**
But that...
**Michael Frampton**
Doesn't, right? Yeah, no, there's no blood supply. So it doesn't. However, there's arguments to saying yes, you know, if you get ACL reconstruction, it's a false ligament in terms that it's there structurally, but it doesn't give any proprioceptive feedback. Right. So you're sacrificing. If you don't get that surgery, then essentially there's less trauma on the knee because you don't have to go through surgery. Yeah. So there's less scar tissue. So there's more other ways of propriocepting the already damaged knee. So a lot of people just choose not to get their ACL reconstructed nowadays. And they have, as long as they keep it strong, then they have great outcomes.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Every day is leg day. No, I had this... well, this... but one of the specialists I saw—I had to see a few specialists until I got the right answer that I wanted to hear—but one of the specialists I saw was... he's Alex Nichols. But he's got this knee... kind of this knee institute, I think you'd call it, but you go—I went in there and there's like more space for rehab than there is... it's a surgery, but there's more... the gym area and the rehab and the physio space is much bigger than the couple of offices and the surgery room they have. And I'm like, this is a good sign. And he's doing rehabilitative therapy—ACLs without surgery and MCLs, and even PCL, the back one, is a bit of a gray area. But yeah, he's trying to do as little surgery as possible because of what you mentioned—proprioception, healing, and actual trauma to the joint. So yeah, it's good. It's a good way to... I was actually—because that was a very medical kind of place that I went to—but it was really that. You know, I was stoked to see that, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and he's probably stoked to have you as a client, because some people probably just go in there, "Just operate, mate. I don't want to..."
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, just do it. He's a frother. He was really good, actually.
**Michael Frampton**
Nice. So since last time we spoke, I think you've started doing retreats, right?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, we've been doing retreats for a while.
**Michael Frampton**
Tell me about those.
**Nic Laidlaw**
So they're not surf-specific, but actually I'm going to—we're kind of bringing some more surf-specific retreats. So I've got a little gym where I work, and next door to that, we've got like a little recovery room, a sauna—or we've got two recovery rooms now—sauna, ice baths. And so people come in generally on the hour, you know, so they'll come in. I just had—just before I spoke to you—I had an hour client and we're working with her. She's got a bit of back pain at the moment. And we're working at just bringing up the joint. And in that time, we're speaking about, you know, how's the gut feeling, how's the gut health, what else is happening in the life that might be kind of another stressor on the body. And in that time, we squeezed all that in and then the hour is done and it's like, "All the best for the next week. You got this," you know, which everyone has that power. I love the way that we can serve people in that way. And then the other element is people come in, do some breath work. They have an icy, a sauna, and then they go on. That's another thing. But what I love doing more than anything is like having some time to fully embody all the principles that I live by and that I teach. Not just have them in theory, you know? So instead of having someone for an hour, we've got someone together for three or four nights. And in that time, we're working with the cycles of the day. So from sunrise, we're up and we go have nice early nights. Generally, we go down when the sun's gone down. Depending on what season it is depends on the food that we cook people, depends on the style of movement that I'm going to teach people. And depending on the crew there, there's always this great link of people there that kind of, like, make it a special time as well. So you get to kind of have this element of connection with yourself and with each other. Connection to your food, which is the biggest thing, which I think a lot of people take shortcuts with. And I'm really passionate about good nutrition and just like good eating environment and good produce. You know, like I can't... yeah. Just like getting really good, clean produce into you is just something I couldn't stress enough. And all of these modalities combined together is what I feel we're about—more than just... you know, I'm known for like a movement guy, and I teach movement because it's like in a little studio. That's what we've got time for. And I'll talk about the other principles. But when you've got someone for a couple of days, you can really embody all the principles and say, it's not too much of an ask to go for a three-hour bushwalk and do some Tai Chi out there. Or it's not too much of an ask to say, "Hey guys, I'm going to teach you Tai Chi. Seven out of the 10 people want to go for a surf tomorrow morning, so we're going to go for it. Go down to the beach in the morning, do some breath work, have a stretch and then go surfing. If you're not wanting to go for a surf, you can have a bushwalk or whatever." And now I'm attracting more and more people that like to surf. So they get more and more surf- and salty-orientated, which I love because I love—I wouldn't call myself a surf instructor or anything—but I love taking people surfing, especially from the beginner to intermediate. Like I feel like it's really... a really nice opportunity to give people like the rite of passage of surfing and the culture and like the etiquette and all of those. And just using the ocean in a really like reciprocal way. So that's just the surfing element. But yeah, I love running retreats. So we run two retreats each year and every retreat we do is like, "That was the best one ever," you know? So that's something that my wife and I are working towards building upon and, you know, getting a bit of land down on the South Coast and having like a live-on retreat. Like that's our end goal kind of thing. Wow. So yeah, I feel like it's a really... beautiful way to be able to share what I have to share. Like in face-to-face, in person, you know, a couple of days to get to know each other, get to know their systems and offer what I can do to help, you know. Another thing that you learn with Paul Cech is there's no frigging answers. You're not like healing people. You're actually just asking questions. So I just, my biggest—the biggest thing I could offer—is just be a really good listener and help other people to tune into their own systems because I can lend you my expertise and that's one thing, but like innately, we all know how to... kind of how to look after ourself and how to heal ourself. It's often just about quietening the... all the other stimulus around us, I think.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, you're asking the right questions. Ask everyone if they know what a good diet is and most people... will say they might not have as much knowledge as you or I, but they certainly know how to eat better than they currently are.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. And they know what makes them feel... yeah. They know what makes them feel shit-ass. They know what makes them feel tired the next day. You know, we know those behaviors and that's okay to do them. But at least we can't kind of bullshit ourselves. You know, if you ask the right questions and poke into the blind spots sometimes, it can be really...
**Michael Frampton**
Illuminating. Sometimes I feel people are on the fence. They're like, "Yeah, I really want to train and eat better and have a go at this health lifestyle thing." But then it comes to Friday night and their friends are saying, "Come on, stuff that, let's go out for a drink." And they do that. But if they have the opportunity to get together with other like-minded individuals for four days...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Exactly, dude.
**Michael Frampton**
Then they can dive into it and you build... I'm sure there's all sorts of WhatsApp chat groups and friends are made.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, exactly. And then it's like it makes it totally permissible to go and have a blowout and really enjoy that blowout. And then get back on the program, you know, because it's like, you just need to make some sub—I wouldn't even call it a suboptimal choice. I just call it, if you do, if it comes from the right place, going out and having it, having a blowout and eating rubbish and drinking too much, whatever it is that you decide to do, I'm all for that if that's for you. But if you love yourself through it, you know, like really enjoy it. Like Maddie, my wife, and I on the weekend—this is pretty like, we're pretty soft in the scheme of things—but it's like Maddie's been like really looking after her health and diet and she's like no sugar lately at all and it's been... she's been feeling great for it. But Easter comes around and she's like, will I, won't I? But it's like, if you're going to do it, fully and love yourself for it. You know, like love every moment of it. And then you'll get the feedback from your body that it's time to get off that train. But what I suggest is not to half in it and feel guilty about it. Just do it and love yourself through it. And then it naturally comes to an end instead of this like, I shouldn't be doing this. And then it just creates a cycle. It can create a cycle. We can tell ourselves some crazy stories.
**Michael Frampton**
Man, I love chocolate.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Dude, I love chocolate. That's like... I love coffee, but like, I think if I had—they're the two biggest things, you know—but if it's chocolate or if I had to choose one, I'm going to be chocolate. It's so good.
**Michael Frampton**
Same. Yeah.
**Nic Laidlaw**
It's so good. Yeah, I'll have a long black most days.
**Michael Frampton**
So are you a regular customer? Coffee drinker?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. I'm pretty—I am pretty sensitive to coffee. And since we had the boys, you know, then you go—now we're sleeping great, but like, it did... it's taken us a while, you know, to get them all on the program to freaking sleeping all night. And I think the more tired I am, the more I need to be wary of coffee, if that makes sense. And the more you want it. But I'm quite a sensitive person, so it can make me freaking pretty antsy if I have it and I don't have the reserves to be able to metabolize it. Yeah. So I do drink coffee. Like there's often—like often I'll have a day or two off a week, just depending on how I'm feeling. If I'm feeling tired and wired... and often it's funny, hey, it's often on a Monday, because I just—Thursday I pretty much switch off. I just get my training done on Thursday, clients, but then I don't really think about work too much until the Monday. And it seems to be like you get to—because we're so busy with the kids—then you get to Monday and you're like, holy shit, like it's compounded. I've got a lot to do this week. And often that'll be the day that I'm like, I don't need a coffee. Because that's going to frazzle me. You know, it's about just, you know... So Monday is often a day I'll have off from coffee. Because it just makes me a bit antsy.
**Michael Frampton**
Obviously, Paul Cech's been a big influence. Who else has been influencing you a lot recently? Are you doing any more study?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Not actively studying at the moment. I did my stint—big stint—with Paul Cech, you know. That's the foundation of my... you know, of a lot of the things that I share. And then we studied with Ido Portal—he's a movement guy—Fighting Monkey. They're like athletic development. They do performing arts. They're freaking amazing. And they teach you a lot about improvisation and learning the elastic structure of your body. And they have a really deep philosophy behind it, which I love. So that in the movement world, that's kind of like the base. And then—and it's like—it's funny, the first person that came to mind when you said that was... when you asked me who's inspiring right now, it's like Tom Carroll. I'm lucky enough to call him a good mate of mine. We live in the same community. He's lived through amazing highs. He's lived through incredible adversity. And he's never too busy to say g'day to a crossing friend but actually ask them how they are. He's never too busy to talk to a lady who's just gotten into surfing—and I've witnessed all of these things—who's just gotten into surfing and is just starstruck by him. And he's like... he's a brother that like, when I did my knees, I had so many injuries, like he called me and we just had a chat and I was just friggin had a big old cry to him. I was just like, "Dude, like, you know, look, I got to work and I can't surf and I can't even use my body to provide for my family," and he just like is such a sensitive soul that he was just so there for me. He doesn't owe me anything. There's nothing to gain from me. He's like such a champion, not only in his surfing, but in his... like, I love the way that he embodies life. And he just... he froths that hard, dude. I know you've met him as well, but he froths harder than most. And he's like—I think he might be 60—but he's getting towards that age. He surfs so much and foils surfing stuff like crazy. Training hard, like... and he's just got such a big open heart, you know, and that actually supersedes everything else—like all of everything else. You know, he's got such a big open heart. And such a froth for life. And so, yeah, he really inspires me. And I didn't even think of that before you asked me, but as soon as you asked me, he's the first face that popped into my mind, yeah. He's a legend.
**Michael Frampton**
That's awesome. I mean, I look up to Tom a lot as well, and he's—Tom's amazing. It's so important in life to have these people who we look up to. Whether it's an elder who you consider a friend or a specific mentor or...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Whatever. It's so important, isn't it? We shouldn't do it alone either.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, we can't do it alone. And...
**Nic Laidlaw**
I think I've been fortunate that I've always seeked out elder males, you know. I've got a really good dad—like a great dad—and he's never been too big to point me in the right direction or even just to accept all these characters that I fall into flow with in my life. You know, because Dad had a... Dad, Mum and Dad grew up out west, away from the ocean, in a very different upbringing than me. And they've given this privilege to us to live like on, you know, like, you know, a stone's throw away from the ocean. And we all fell in love with the ocean together. And there's all these eccentric characters that come with the surf culture. And Mum and Dad are just like, yeah, right. Like, you know, they see people's good hearts and good intentions. They're like, cool. Like some of my mates, like—and over the years—and some people that I've brought home as a kid, and you know, like I've had like lots of mentors. Really lucky. From the surf community and from NASA, like our local boardriders. And some of these people that Mum and Dad have come across, they're just like really trusting and accepting. But I've had some really colorful, like... outside-the-box kind of thinkers from a really early age. So I'm so frothed on that. It's so lucky.
**Michael Frampton**
Man, you live in a special part of the world for...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Sure. Yeah, it really is, dude. Yeah, there's a lot of special people in a... it's wherever you seek it, I reckon. And there is that thing that brings you into flow with other people that are... and maybe if they're not even like-minded, they've got something to offer you.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, we don't have to name the place, but those who know how special the surf is there—but just the... just it's just such an idyllic place to live and it attracts—it is—so many special people.
**Nic Laidlaw**
No, yeah. I think like, yeah, I live on the Northern Beaches in Sydney, and it's just like, yeah, it's a beautiful place. And I've got, you know, I live at Avalon, and I'm super proud of like our community. And it's evolving like—and it's changing—like everywhere changes, you know, but that's just part of life. But yeah, at its core, it's still a very special place that breeds a lot of characters. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Man. You got to experience that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I miss it like crazy, man. I've lived in Pointe du Malibu, I've lived in London, I've lived in New York. And if I had to... if I had to go back to any one of the spots I've lived around the world, it would be there.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, you reckon?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's cool. For sure. Without even second-guessing myself.
**Nic Laidlaw**
And are you back in NZ now?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, back in NZ, back in Hawke's Bay.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Nice. Cool.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, we've got family here and family and friends are here. So good place to raise the...
**Nic Laidlaw**
Sure, dude.
**Michael Frampton**
Kids. That's where you want to be for... there's no higher task.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, no, that's the most important thing is raising the boys.
**Michael Frampton**
There's no greater honor, really.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. For sure. You've got mentors above you and then mentees below us.
**Michael Frampton**
Totally. That's just the purpose. I used to have different lofty goals of what I want to achieve and all that stuff. You become a parent. That's your living legacy. Nothing more important.
**Nic Laidlaw**
But you can't lose sight of your own... stuff either.
**Michael Frampton**
Fuck no. No, like I'm even more inspired to get barreled. I'm even more inspired to kick ass—like in relative terms to what it means for me—because it's like, I want to be their hero, you know? I think we've all seen it, you know, the parents that live through their kids, that sacrifice. And there's no doubt about this—certainly sacrifices being a parent. But like, that's what comes with the choice of doing it. Like, yeah, it's lit like a fire in my belly even more so, like to—just like—to be... I want to use like "authentically myself," but like it's that thing of just being your unbridled self. Because I would love them to feel comfortable in their skin, just to express themselves and be themselves, you know? And that's something I didn't grow up having—that innate confidence—but it's developed as I've gotten... as I've grown up. And I just think if I can do one thing—like you said, like we said at the very start—it's so important to live your dream because that's what they see. If they see someone that, you know, sees work as a slog and sees life as something to get through, then that's a pretty... that's a bit of a bummer of a picture for your parents to—for your kids to see, you know? If they see you coming home from work, you know, maybe tired some days, but overall, if they see you frothing more than not, like, I think that's good, you know. And how do we get those happy chemicals in our body? By doing the things we love. And for me, it's like moving my body, being in nature, and surfing my butt off, you know? And, you know, having like really good relationships in my life as well, like from everything.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it comes back to how we started, which is lead by example.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Do. Don't talk about doing. Just do it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Exactly.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, 100%.
**Michael Frampton**
And it spreads out. Not just your kids—obviously, they live with you, they see more of you than anyone else—but obviously, it spreads out. Everywhere. Your community, obviously.
**Nic Laidlaw**
100%. And like I said, having that opportunity where there was just always... I've just been lucky where I've always come across really great mentors. That's something I don't take lightly in my role in the community as well. I really love—and it just so happens—I've got, you know, so many ladies and young ladies that come, and every age of females and males that come through the studio. But like, young men seem to really be drawn to the studio. And that's something that I love. You know, I love like, you know, getting the groms in here. You know, give them a lot of love and a lot of confidence, but give them the boundaries that they need because they're cheeky little bastards. And, you know, just working, just watching them become young men and staying... if you can just, again, by living it, impart solid values for them. Because I think the world needs... and I can only speak from a man, but the world needs good people in general. But like, you know, our masculinity is in crisis in a lot of ways in the world. And I think there's one thing, you know, that I could offer—I feel like I'm a fairly well-balanced male. So yeah, you know, I love having young fellas come in here and, you know, just sharing with them what I can. It's important.
**Michael Frampton**
It's super important. I'm glad you mentioned it because there is a crisis of masculinity, for want of a better word. I mean, have you come across Richard Reeves’ work, for example, maybe?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Okay, no, I...
**Michael Frampton**
Haven’t. I forget what his book's called now, but I’ll share it with you. It's really interesting work. People mislabel the term masculinity.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yes, so it has a negative connotation, when really...
**Michael Frampton**
Really, it’s not. Yeah.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Being proud of one's masculinity and sitting strong in one's masculinity is so important for the balance of culture and society, just like I think women need to be so much more celebrated for their power—not their yang strength, strapping a pair of balls on—but like, women have strength, like, and power that is so innately theirs that it’s like, men shouldn’t even try to emulate that. And it's such a powerful force. Just like, on the other hand, man, we have like an innate strength and power that is really good for our society and really good for our young men to be able to grow from. And I think it's to celebrate, you know, the inner warrior, to celebrate our strength. And by physically challenging ourself—whether that's going surfing big waves, and I know that was my initiation into manhood; it’s one of them anyway, you know—having kids, another one. But you know, going and testing your limits. And that's all part of being a young man. And everyone's welcome. It's not exclusive. But I think there is a level of like—I feel like there's so many guys that are turning into, like, by the age of a man, that haven't really been taught how to like, strap a pair on, and taught how to lead, or to hold it down for their family, or to fucking just show up and be a man of your word. Like, I don't think that's as valued in our society as it could be. And I think it's quite confusing for young men.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it sure is. How was big wave surfing an initiation?
**Nic Laidlaw**
I don't subscribe to any religion or ideology personally. But I think nature is one of those things that's pretty god-like, in a way that, like, the relationship that I formed with the ocean—it’s never failed to make me feel comfortable. So small in the scheme of things that it feels like it really puts you in your place. So that's like, I'll speak of that with my relationship to the ocean and to nature in general. It's like, it's so powerful that it's hard to actually measure how powerful it is. But you don't know until you're in an ocean that's big enough to squish you if it wanted to. And so I think from a pretty early age—I think I was like 13, 14, maybe just starting high school—where I started kind of getting that... when the waves are big in relative terms—and I'll only speak in relative terms—but when the waves are big and you have to kind of like really muster up some courage to get out there, or you have to really think about how you're going to get out there... like there's so much problem solving involved to remain fairly unscathed. Like whether it's a rock off, or whether it's a strategic paddle out, whether you go around the next headland and paddle out that way. And then there's the action of like—so that's the first thing—is like getting off the beach with a lot of uncertainty in your heart. And it's pretty awesome. It's equally awesome doing it with a couple of buddies, because like, yes, we're in this together—or even doing it by yourself, it's even like another lesson, embodied lesson there as well. But, you know, taking a few drops, getting some floggings, and then being out so far that you're looking at the horizon, looking at the shore—which is quite a way away—and then you come back to sand and come back to land and you're just like, "My God, I'm so grateful to be alive and to be in good health." I still feel like that when I have a big surf out at the Bombie or whatever. It's just like, you touch the sand and you're like, "Thanks, God." You know, like, that is just amazing. So how is that initiation? I think for anything to be an initiation, you need to like stretch yourself beyond what you think you're capable of, right? You need to go and step into the unknown. There's the idea of having like a dark—the dark night of the soul—which is like, unknown, terrified. You have opportunity for all of the negative self-talk to come in. Ideally, you prove to yourself that you're able and that you're capable to slip in—not to overcome a fear or not to beat fear or conquer anything—but actually to work with an energy that's much bigger than yourself, I think teaches you a lot. That's taught me a lot anyway. And then to return to land—whether it's you got a few scratches and bruises, you got a snapped board, you've had to do a huge swim across through a rip—or you come in one piece. And I think that's like such a... it's like a... yeah, it's the tale of like the hero’s journey encapsulated in a couple of hours perhaps. So I think there's a lot to be said about it. And we don't have—it’s coming back more and more with formalized, you know, men's work that people are doing out there, which I love—but when you're doing it with nature, it's such a great thing. And I think that's very much... you can feel. My biggest one was going to Hawaii when I was 17. I felt like I just came back a different person. Because it was in that six weeks, there were just so many times where I pushed myself beyond where I thought I'd go. I accepted help from these amazing people that were in my corner. I had to figure shit out by myself a lot, whether it's, you know, in so many different ways. So, yeah, I do think it’s like, that does offer a really good, solid, honest initiation for a young person.
**Michael Frampton**
100% agree. I love that. You nailed it.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, you go through it enough times and you can start to put some words to the experience.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, a big wave surf is almost—it’s a good metaphor for any challenge that you face in life.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. Beyond surfing for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And for surfers, it's... you know, big wave surfing might be the thing. You have this desire, right? It all starts with that. And then you self, "Man, am I ready? It's triple overhead. Am I ready for this?" And if you've done your training and you've got the right board, it's not going to get rid of self-doubt. But it's going to give you a reason and some evidence to be confident. And then you can go out and test your training and your... and all those other hours.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. And you have to face all of that self-doubt. Because I think all the fear comes from like a seed that's within ourself, you know. A fear of—we see a huge wave and that reflects—that's fucking scary—but that reflects something in us back to us, that gives you the mirror of like, can I? Should I? You know? And you have to go through so many mental challenges, work with so many mental obstacles, challenges to even get yourself in the arena. It's a very rich experience.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, it's the same as signing a lease to a building to run a business from.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, totally. I did that when I was 21. That was pretty scary.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, but would you have done that if you hadn't been to Hawaii?
**Nic Laidlaw**
I wonder, bro. I wonder. I think that was a big game changer—going to Hawaii—because I kind of came back to school knowing something that a lot of people didn’t know. Like knowing something about myself that very few people knew about me. And it kind of didn’t matter. I didn’t really—it wasn’t one of those days where social media—like you need to get shots to prove what you’ve just done. It’s like I came back with this idea, confidence of being like, I’ve seen some shit over the last, you know, over the last while. And it actually gave me a lot more—you know, how I was speaking about how I wasn’t really born or I didn’t really grow up with this innate confidence just to be myself—like I’ve never felt so, you know, so free. Adulthood is so much easier than adolescence for me. Like, because I just give myself permission just to be me. And I just—you know, it’s not that I don’t care—but like in the sense of, it’s not really any of my business what other people think of me. Like, so I’m good, you know. And that was the beginning of it—coming back from Hawaii and being like, cool. I know that I feel really—like there was a confidence in me. And that just helped me pursue—like that nailed one thing. I was still doing the Pro Juniors as a competitive surfer then, but I was 17 at that age where it’s like, I don’t know if I’m that—if I’m good enough to be like on tour. And that was like an honest reflection, you know. That wasn’t—it wasn’t any hard luck story with me. It was just that thing of like I’ve competed for a long time and I don’t know if I’m going to crack it, you know. But what I did know for sure is that I wanted to surf every day. And my parents have both run their own business together—they’re hairdressers—and they’ve had a salon for 30-odd years, even maybe longer than 30 years. They’re doing just such a humble, great business and service to the community, but they’ve always done it themselves and they haven’t worked for anyone. And so I think when I was like, I still—I need to be able to surf every day. Like, that’s non-negotiable. And I was like, I like working with people, and I’m really into my health and yoga and stuff. So yeah. So then I decided to do the yoga and personal training. And then straight away it’s like, what are you going to do? You’re going to work at like Fitness First, or are you going to train people in a park? And I was just like—both of those are fine. But for me, I was like, nah, I want to have my own. I don’t like any gym. I’d never even been to a gym until I was a personal trainer. Because I just didn’t—I was a skinny kid—I wasn’t interested. I wasn’t interested in it unless it was going to help me surf better. I wasn’t interested. And then found all the Cech philosophy, and I’m like, this could help me surf better. And it could help a lot of other people surf better too. But yeah, I got a little studio and I didn’t think twice about it. Anything that I got with payment—any cash that I got that was a $20 note or above—I banked it. I took out a $40,000 loan, got a car, got a studio space and did it up, decked it out. And then I just paid—worked my absolute ass off to pay that loan back within the five years, which was the agreement. And I did. And I didn’t think much about it. Like, I was just like, it has to work, you know? I was 21 when I did it. So you don’t have that much responsibility at 21, you know. But I didn’t really think—I was just like, let’s just do it.
**Michael Frampton**
I love that. And the non-negotiable—that’s such a good term.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah. You gotta surf every day. Fuck. What else are we—like, we’ve got to be able to surf every day, you know. If that’s what you want. You should be—we should be able to do—and you live, I’ve noticed from day one I met you when you were in Avalon—I got, that’s just like, yeah, of course. Of course, that’s what you should be able to do every day. There’s no "I have to." Speaking of being a man, there’s no "I have to." You do everything. You find that—you let’s find that. And it might sound rich coming from me, but it’s like, I’m not materially super wealthy or anything. I just like, carved out a good lifestyle so I can do what we want and our family can eat good food.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, that’s the true meaning of wealth, isn’t it?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Like that’s what I mean, you know. Yeah, 100%. It’s like, yeah, that’s our private health care—you know, exercise and organic food.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. That’s very educational and inspirational. Dude, thank you so much. We have to get you back on another time, but thanks for your time today. It’s awesome.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on, bro. Love your work, man. So yeah, really appreciate it.
**Michael Frampton**
Sweet. And where can people find you online?
**Nic Laidlaw**
Instagram is just Balanced Studio. So B-A-L-A-N-C-E-D-S-T-U-D-I-O, one word. Yeah. I put up stuff semi-regularly there. Or just like, yeah, I’ve got a YouTube channel, Nic Laidlaw. So N-I-C Laidlaw. And putting—I’ve actually just re-launched, like, kind of reignited it to get more online, you know. So I’ve just been chipping away at that more recently. So I’ve got some new content coming out there and some surf-specific stuff as well, you know—good movement, mobility, strength for surfing and all those kind of things. So yeah, that’d be a good start—YouTube or Insta. And that leads to the website, my services and all that kind of stuff.
**Michael Frampton**
Perfect. I’ll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. And until next time, thanks. Thank you so much for tuning in.
**Nic Laidlaw**
Yeah, 100%. Thanks, Mike.
**Michael Frampton**
I noticed that most people that listen to this podcast haven’t yet subscribed, so if you could do that, it would be a huge help—it’ll help grow the show. And a review and a rating is a massive help to help the show along. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode or any other episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, share it with a friend. You can follow Nic at Balanced Studio on Instagram, and of course, links to everything Nic in the show notes. My six-week coaching program starts next week. More information atsurfmastery.com. Upcoming episodes include... Guy Kawasaki, Matt Parker. And until next time, get out there and go surfing.

96 How Surfing Connects Us To Our True Selves - With Nic Laidlaw
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**95 Oscar Hetherington - Award Winning Surf Photographer** Apr 11, 2024

Think great surf photos are just about timing the barrel? Think again—what if the real magic happens before the wave even breaks?
Oscar Hetherington shares how photography sharpened his wave reading, elevated his surfing, and deepened his obsession with adventure. From the snowy points of the South Island to international recognition with the Follow the Light award, Oscar explains how slowing down, observing the ocean, and embracing the full surf journey—not just the ride—can transform your surf experience.
Learn why most surfers blow good sessions before they even paddle out—and how to fix it
Discover how photography can teach you better wave selection, rhythm, and positioning
Hear the behind-the-scenes of cold water shoots, hypothermia, and winning global surf awards
Hit play now to see surfing through a fresh lens and uncover the mindset shift that could elevate every session you paddle into.
Website: https://www.oscarhetheringtonvisuals.com
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/oscar.hetherington/?hl=en
Music: Original by Joe Cole. Check out Joe: https://www.instagram.com/joecolemusic/, https://open.spotify.com/artist/5TjI5d408YMuLi17W0OP9B
**Key Points**
Oscar Hetherington began surfing at the age of seven or eight in Queensland, Australia, and continued the sport despite moving to Wanaka, far from the coast.
Oscar Hetherington has been passionate about photography since he was young, starting with a GoPro and later moving to Sony equipment, influenced by his love for adventure and sports.
Oscar Hetherington's photography gained recognition through his work shooting mountain bike events, leading to his entry into surf photography and eventually winning the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards.
Winning the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards has opened up opportunities for Oscar Hetherington, including a planned trip with Billabong.
Oscar Hetherington emphasizes the adventure aspect of surfing in his photography, seeking out undiscovered spots and focusing on the journey rather than just the waves.
Oscar Hetherington finds that shooting surf photography enhances his surfing skills by improving his wave reading and selection, contributing to a more comprehensive understanding of the sport.
Oscar Hetherington identifies rushing and poor wave selection as common mistakes among beginner and intermediate surfers, advocating for a more deliberate and observational approach to surfing.
Oscar Hetherington recounts a challenging experience of mild hypothermia while shooting surf photography in cold conditions, emphasizing the importance of proper equipment and preparation.
Oscar Hetherington expresses a strong interest in exploration and adventure, both in his photography and surfing, aiming to visit and document lesser-known surf spots around the world.
Oscar Hetherington aspires to work with National Geographic and create a photo book documenting his adventures and surf experiences in unique, less-visited locations.
**Outline**
**Oscar Hetherington's Background**
Oscar Hetherington is a surfer and photographer from New Zealand.
Oscar started surfing at the age of seven or eight in Queensland, Australia, near Noosa.
Oscar's family, including their father and brother, also engaged in outdoor activities like kite surfing and rugby.
Oscar has always been creative, with interests in drawing, painting, and photography from a young age.
Oscar's first camera was a GoPro, followed by a Nikon D3000, and currently uses Sony a7R III and a7R IV cameras.
**Oscar's Photography Career**
Oscar began gaining recognition for their photography skills by shooting videos of mountain biking events.
Oscar entered the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards and won the grand prize in 2023.
Oscar's photography portfolio includes surf action, lifestyle, portrait, and seascape images.
Oscar is set to embark on a trip with Billabong, a leading surf brand, to create content and collaborate with their athletes and creatives.
**Surfing and Photography**
Oscar enjoys capturing the adventure and culture of surfing, not just the action shots.
Oscar spends time researching and planning surf trips using tools like Google Meet to find new waves and swell patterns.
Oscar often shoots when the surf conditions are great, reserving surfing for when the conditions are merely good.
Oscar believes that shooting surfing has improved their own surfing skills by enhancing their wave reading and timing.
Oscar emphasizes the importance of slowing down and being selective with wave choices in both surfing and photography.
**Learning and Improvement in Surfing**
Oscar highlights the value of watching the ocean and other surfers to learn and improve surfing skills.
Oscar suggests that beginners and intermediate surfers often rush and make poor wave selections.
Oscar practices self-reflection after each wave to identify areas for improvement in their surfing.
Oscar varies their surfing equipment, such as trying different boards, to keep the activity interesting and improve their skills.
Oscar emphasizes the importance of choosing the right surfboard for the conditions to enhance performance and enjoyment.
**Adventure and Exploration**
Oscar values the adventure and exploration aspect of surfing, seeking out new and undiscovered waves.
Oscar has had experiences of finding perfect waves by driving to less crowded spots and using tools like Google Meet to plan trips.
Oscar is inspired by the idea of traveling to remote and unique locations for surfing and photography adventures.
Oscar mentions the influence of photographers like Nick Green, who capture waves in uncharted territories.
Oscar expresses interest in creating a book or project documenting an adventurous surf trip to a unique destination.
**Future Goals**
Oscar feels a sense of increased pressure to continue producing amazing imagery after winning the Follow the Light award.
Oscar aspires to be recognized or collaborate with National Geographic, aiming to capture timeless and iconic images.
Oscar's main focus in photography is on surfing and seascapes, but they are open to shooting anything that inspires them.
Oscar has a goal of creating a significant adventure project, potentially a book, documenting a unique surf trip to a remote location.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today's guest is Oscar Hetherington. Oscar is a surfer and photographer from here in New Zealand, and Oscar came into my awareness last year when I saw his amazing images after he won the grand prize at the 2023 Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards, and it turns out he lives just around the corner, so we got to do this one in person. The intro and outro music was written by Joe Cole, a New Zealand musician. I gave him an early listen to this episode, and he came up with this original piece, which I love. So big thanks to Joe for doing that. You can listen to his recorded originals online on Spotify: Joe Cole, J-O-E-C-O-L-E, and Joe Cole Music on Instagram. Today's guest, Oscar Hetherington, is at oscar@scotthetherington.com on Instagram and oscarhetheringtonvisuals.com. Of course, all of that stuff is in the show notes and at surfmastery.com for the links. Bye now. Please enjoy my conversation with Oscar. When did you start surfing?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I started surfing probably I think I was seven or eight years old. Yeah, we lived in Australia for a couple of years, luckily enough. Up in Queensland near Noosa, so yeah, picked up a surfboard then. And then, yeah, 23 now and... I guess I grew up in Wanaka mainly, first of all, which is pretty far away from the coast, as you can imagine. Yeah, I guess that's when I was first introduced to surfing. But since then, every holiday we've been on, every time I've been to the beach, I've just wanted to keep surfing. No, shortboarding.
**Michael Frampton**
Basically. No, so was that longboarding?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Like I say, seven or eight years old, Dad was pushing me in on a little soft top kind of thing.
**Michael Frampton**
So Dad's a surfer?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Nah, Dad wasn't a surfer, but living in a place like Noosa, you know, he bought a board, just couldn't help himself. He started learning, I started learning, my little brother started learning. Yeah, we were all just out there as much as we could, and there's no excuse not to be in the... You know, they've got warm water and good waves to learn in over there. So that's where it all began for me, really.
**Michael Frampton**
Did it begin for your family as well from living in Noosa? Did your dad keep surfing? Did your brothers keep surfing?
**Oscar Hetherington**
My brother still surfs just for fun. Yeah, he's more focused on rugby and other things. Dad is quite into kite surfing. Yeah, he's always been keen on anything in the outdoors—skiing, sailing. Yeah, gave surfing a go, anything outdoors he loves. So yeah, he still kite surfs, but he doesn't surf anymore. So out of the family, it's mainly me, I guess, who's addicted to it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And then what about art?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I've always been pretty creative, like from a young age, I don't know. Just curious and liked drawing, painting. I remember picking up a camera when I was probably 11 or 12 years old and just curious about how they made movies, how photos were taken, you know, all sorts of stuff like that. I probably didn't appreciate art when I was young, but I was just curious on like how it was made, how people made movies—from like the special effects to how they filmed the action stuff. Yeah. All of that.
**Michael Frampton**
Did you have a favourite director or a favourite movie or a favourite photographer, artist back then?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Not really, no. I think I was too young. Like I say, I was just curious on all of it and how it worked. Like, yeah, you'd watch a movie and there'd be some shots where I'd just think, like, how did they do that? Like, was it a drone or a helicopter or a gimbal or like, a lot of it was movie stuff. But yeah, I guess I was too young to kind of think too deeply into how. Well, to understand how it was actually done and have favorites and things. Yeah, I'd say that's probably the best way to put it.
**Michael Frampton**
That, yeah. So you were in awe of cinematography?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. And just like, yeah, watching any type of sport really—from rugby to surfing to diving—you know, all of that stuff, you'd watch it and just go far out, that looks amazing. Like, I want to go and do that activity first of all, but then how do you show other people kind of the things you get up to and the adventures and the stories behind the sport, I guess. Yeah. Initially, like, I started shooting... It was nothing to do with photography really. It was, like I say, in Wanaka once again, going on adventures, going skiing and fishing and mountain biking, all of that. It was going to amazing places, seeing amazing things, doing sports in the mountains and wanting to show friends at school, wanting to show Mum and Dad, hey, this is amazing snow we scored or check out this fish we caught or whatever. And then, yeah, taking photos kind of and videos of stuff like that. And then... Yeah, after a while it kind of... I don't know, everywhere I went, I was just carrying a camera going like, just looking at the world a bit differently, I guess, as well.
**Michael Frampton**
What was your first camera?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I had a GoPro to start with when I was 11 or 12 years old, and then I had a Nikon D3000, I think it was, from memory.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, just the entry-level SLR.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, nothing special. It was second-hand off Trade Me for my 14th or 15th birthday kind of thing. Yeah, and then, yeah, had that for a few years and then just sort of slowly upgraded to where I'm at now, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What are you using now?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Now I'm using all Sony. So I shoot with a Sony a7R III and a Sony a7R IV mainly. And yeah, just Sony lenses as well. And then in the water, I shoot with the Aquatech housing.
**Michael Frampton**
Nice. Yeah. When was your first recognition of that, how you were actually doing pretty well at photography or filming?
**Oscar Hetherington**
A few times we went away on fishing trips or mountain biking, like you'd go away for Easter weekend or whatever, and then I remember cutting up like a little, I don't know, two-minute mountain bike video, posting it on YouTube, and then you go to school next week and a few people are like, that was a crazy video, like, I saw what you got up to on the weekend. And then I guess that kind of gave me a little bit of confidence. I probably, yeah, made a few edits over a year or so. And then I actually contacted a family friend of ours who runs a mountain bike race and just said, hey, can I come and shoot this whole event for free, just to like see if I can, you know, shoot a day's worth of content and make like a recap video for the event? And that went well. I remember staying up till like two in the morning editing the day of the event, put it up online like nine o'clock the morning after. And everyone from the event was just waking up, checking Facebook and being like, my God, there's like a video out already. Like I just put my heart and soul into it. And then a lot of people just from that were like, this is like super cool. And I guess, yeah, no one had shot that event before. Yeah, I guess cameras weren't... That would have been, I think, 2015?
**Michael Frampton**
Like... What year was that?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, so cameras were around for sure, but people had shot stills of that event, but they'd never shot a video of it. I think it was just something different and people were just stoked. And yeah, I had people from, friends from school, family, friends, all sorts of people. I think even one of the local newspapers rang me up and was like, hey, that was such a cool video, and they put it on their website or a few things like that. So that was, yeah, positive encouragement. And then from then on, I guess it slowly built. The next mountain bike race I was kind of like, hey, do you guys need someone to film a little video for you? I've done this one before. And then, yeah, it's just built from there, I guess. So that was for the Follow the Light.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Because, I mean, this year you got recognized in the surf world for your work. So what did that feel like?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Foundation Awards. That was crazy. That was... yeah, it was a strange thing, I guess. Growing up in Wanaka, I was never that close to the ocean, so I could never shoot surfing that often. When I went to university, I decided, right, I'm going to go to Dunedin. There are good waves down there, I can study and just shoot as much as I can. So I went down there, and I think my first year down there I got a few cool shots, whatever, found out those Follow the Light Foundation Awards were on, entered a few and got a bit of feedback. Most of it was positive. And I kind of thought, like, this is quite cool. And, like, the list of the people that had won that award in the past, like Nick Green, Ray Collins, Chris Burkard... there's just a never-ending list of people that have won it. So then I guess every year my kind of goal was to just take a few better photos solely for that portfolio. Yeah, so they always ask for 15 images, and I had 15 good ones four years ago. Then a year later when it was time to enter again, I'd go, right, which ones can I swap out? And for a couple of years there, I'd swap out most of them. Then two years ago, I made it into the top 10, and I thought, right, I'm doing something right, heading in the right direction here and whatnot. And then last year I made it into the top 5, and I was like, right, I'm doing everything right. Just made a few tweaks and kind of really broke down the images that I was entering. Yeah, so broke it down to some surf action stuff, some lifestyle and portrait stuff—like behind the scenes of surfing, really—and then just some seascapes. So just really broke it down to those three areas, picked my five favorite photos, and then, yeah, ended up winning it somehow. Headed over to America, and yeah, it was a crazy trip to go over there and just be recognized for like... yeah, I don't know. It had been, like I say, a goal of mine for so long. Yeah, there's been quite a few.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, that's awesome. Has anything, any opportunities stemmed out of that?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Honestly, like... over there on the award night, for example, like I'd never seen that many surfers in one place before. Like, in New Zealand, it's... I don't know, a busy day at the beach here, there's 20 people in the water, 30 people in the water. At that night, there were one or two thousand people and everyone surfed, everyone was there for the same reason. So like, just... yeah, the scale over there was awesome. So from that, I'm heading away to do a trip with Billabong this year, which will be pretty cool. I don't know exactly where or when I'm headed with them, but I'm looking forward to that—doing some work with them. They obviously have been one of the leading surf brands for as long as anyone can remember. So that'll be awesome to get a foot in the door with them, meet some of their athletes and their creatives. And yeah, I'm really excited to see what we can come up with.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Will you be the only photographer on that trip?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I'm not sure.
**Michael Frampton**
They haven't told you yet?
**Oscar Hetherington**
No, they haven't told me. I've been in talks with them. They're just planning out a few trips at the moment and then waiting for them to get back to me and figure out where we're off to.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that'll be exciting.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And I think the one thing within surf photography or in surfing as a whole that I like to show when I shoot is like the whole adventure of surfing. It's not just someone standing up on a wave doing a cool turn or anything. There's so much more to it—that whole kind of adventure thing, searching for waves, reading maps, weather patterns, all of that. That's what I love about it too. Like I say, there's so much more to surfing than getting a good wave because there's so much before that can happen that has to line up.
**Michael Frampton**
All of those zoomed-in shots of the perfect turn—that's been done. I mean, no one knows who took that photo. But you see a shot that Chris Burkard has done, you feel the adventure of surfing. Or Rambo's, like all those adventure surfing shots. And then you probably listened to the episode I did with Rambo. There's a lot that goes...
**Oscar Hetherington**
A lot that goes on behind the scenes. Like I've spent hours on Google Meet. That's, yeah, something that my mates give me a bit of shit for because, I don't know, it's like a weird... a strange obsession. But it's like, just always looking for, right, what's out there? Finding new waves, looking at where storms are hitting. There's... people have been to a lot of these breaks before and stuff, but I haven't, so it's... yeah, that's really interesting. Trying to line everything up and then going to shoot that as well.
**Michael Frampton**
So you're actively seeking... indie... spots that no one goes to, essentially. Google Meet. Yeah, I mean, the New Zealand coastline's perfect for...
**Oscar Hetherington**
That. Yeah, the New Zealand coastline's perfect for that. And I think Rambo in particular has probably influenced that a lot. Like just some of his empty lineup shots, you know, they're just amazing. Everyone who surfs in New Zealand and around the world knows him and his stuff. So yeah, he's been probably one of my biggest influences over the years. Yeah, like you say, just checking out the coastline on Google Meet and then figuring out what swells are going to work for that spot. You don't get it right first go. Like, you might have to go back to the same spot four or five times until you get it on a good day. Or you might go back... or you might, yeah, you could get it really good the first time and then go back and it's just... yeah, sometimes those spots are like kind of one-hit wonders in a way.
**Michael Frampton**
If you pull up to a spot and the waves are pumping... what's the feeling of like, do I shoot or do I surf? Or do you purposely not take a surfboard?
**Oscar Hetherington**
That's an interesting one. I'd like to say I surf when it's good, but I shoot when it's great. So there's kind of a difference for me. Like if it's... yeah, if it's anywhere... yeah, efforts out of 10, if it's like a 9 or 10 out of 10, then I'll shoot. Because there's only a handful of days a year where the surf is double overhead offshore and there's one or two talented guys out, or no one out, or a few mates out, or whatever it may be. But there's a lot of days when it's good, when it's not, you know, head-high, the wind's a little bit funny or whatever. But I find I can go and have a lot of fun and good vibes, but it's hard to get amazing photos when the waves are just good. Like you kind of need right waves, like I say, because I've spent hours sitting on the beach shooting mates who are really talented surfers and yeah, sat there for hours shooting, and it's like, it's all right, but it's not really doing its thing. And then you go home and you've got a thousand photos to go through. You've been sitting in the cold on the beach alone for four hours and you get nothing and you're like, damn, maybe I should have just gone and surfed because you would have had a whole lot more fun. And shooting, I guess, like it's experience. You're watching the ocean, it's all of that. You're playing around with your camera, trying different things to make moments look amazing in those average conditions, but it's still quite hard.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
**Oscar Hetherington**
To nail a shot on an average day.
**Michael Frampton**
It's probably easier, like, if you're sitting there and it's 9 to 10 out of 10, the swell is peaking, and you're waiting for that one set to come through, and you get the beautiful shot. There's probably no one on that set anyway because they're out of position, or that's the set that you can capture from the beach. But man, you've got to know the spot inside and out to actually catch one of those...
**Oscar Hetherington**
Waves. Yeah, 100%. And I think, like, on that note, a few times I've been lucky enough where you pull up, shoot a spot per se for an hour or two, and it's like great waves. Like I say, it's just perfect, picture-perfect. And I'll shoot it, and I'll go, right, I've got some good shots in there, like quickly look through my camera and go, yeah, right. I know there's some money shots in there. I'm going to go and surf because I feel like I've captured enough to kind of satisfy the photography side of it. And then going out and catching a few waves after that, that's like kind of the best of both...
**Michael Frampton**
Worlds. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. There's a period—I did my, when I was probably 22, I did my ACL. So I was out surfing for a good, back then it was 12 months rehab, and I just kept going to the beach and kept taking photos and watching surfing and watching waves. And then when I got back into surfing, I was better. Yeah. And I think it was just because surfing is so much about just getting to know the ocean and the rhythms and watching waves and reading waves that I think you get to do that in quite an intimate way with the camera. For sure. Because you're watching from pulled back, and then you can zoom in on your lens. Yeah. And you watch, you know, that surfer should have been here. Yeah. Did you not see that set where I saw it coming? I was ready with the camera. He wasn't ready with his paddling or... yeah. So there's a lot of...
**Oscar Hetherington**
That. Yeah, I completely understand. Like, I've spent hours and hours looking at the ocean through a lens. And I think that's, yeah, overall it's definitely improved my surfing. And I know other photographers and filmers are the exact same. Like you say, it begins to become kind of like second nature to you. You can pull up to the beach and you know where the rips are and all of that because you've seen it hundreds of times before. Or you'll see someone and you, without even lifting a camera, you can see, nah, that person's too deep, they're not going to make that wave. Or nah, they did a turn in the wrong spot or whatever. So yeah, it kind of goes hand in hand—surfing and photography—because then you can go out and be like, right, you know what waves are going to be the good ones, whether it's the slightly smaller ones in the sets or the last one of the set, first wave of the set. Like, yeah, I definitely think shooting the sport that I partake in has, you know, for me as a surfer. But I think it's benefited me as a photographer because I know the moments that surfers look for. And I'd like to think that I know how to shoot the sport because I do it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, especially shots in the water and stuff—that's angles that only surfers normally get to see. If you're paddling out into the lineup and someone gets barrelled right in front of you, that's... not many people get to see that angle. But as a surfer, we all have seen that before and you go, that's like the best moment. So when you're shooting, I'm like, right, I know this is where I need to be. And if someone can surf that wave in that way and I'm in the right spot, then that might all line up. Or if it's an empty wave, that makes me just as happy because it takes one less variable out of the equation.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. How often is it a case when, as you're pulling up and parking your car, that's the best set?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Always. Yeah, every time? Yeah. I think... I've definitely become better over the past year or two just slowing things down, whether I'm shooting or surfing. I know often, even with mates around here, I'll pull up to the beach and they'll chuck their suits on and just go jump straight in the water. I'll find myself 10 minutes behind them. And it doesn't bother me because I know... you just get a chance to feel a few sets come through, look up and down the beach at other banks and things like that, rather than—like you say—it's always the case. You pull up and you see the wave of the day come in and you're like, right, I'm going surfing there. And that might not actually be the best spot. That might just be the odd fluky one that comes through and is amazing. But down the beach a few hundred meters, it could be just really big time. I agree for sure. And I think that whole time thing is like slowing everything down.
**Michael Frampton**
Consistent. Yeah, no, I mean, I think a lot of surfers don't watch the waves enough. Yeah.
**Oscar Hetherington**
When you're surfing, it's super important, I reckon. Like, watching from shooting so much surfing, you'll often see people paddle into a wave and just rush a lot, you know. They'll jump straight to their feet in a split second, and then they might try to jam three or four turns into a wave, where often you watch good guys like pros and stuff—they'll stay down for a second longer, time their pop-up perfectly, and do like two amazing turns rather than three or four average turns, you know. I feel like just slowing things down is something I've had to learn because it's kind of like controlling that excitement and like, I need to do this, or should I go on this one, or whatever. But just, yeah, and being selective on waves as well. That's a huge thing that a lot of people think—if they get the most waves, they're having the best session. But it's kind of like a quality vs. quantity thing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that's certainly a detail you have to... well, you can really focus on that with your photography because you get to go back and look at all the photos you took and kind of compare—why did I push the shutter then? It was a waste of... because it's not film, you don't waste any money, but you waste time going through and looking and editing. And so you kind of narrow down your wave selection in that way, I guess. And of course, that translates to your surfing.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, for sure. And it's definitely just time watching the ocean. I was out shooting this morning, and there were some big sets coming in, and I wasn't even lifting my camera to shoot them because I sat there for half an hour and watched a few big sets come in, and they just weren't hitting the bank properly or they were closing down, closing out. But then watching, and some of those mid-sized ones that were coming through actually shaped up a whole lot better, held positions right from out the back the whole way through to the inside, and were makeable. And then a few surfers came in and were like, "It's pretty average out there, didn't get any good waves," and I was like, a lot of the time they're probably looking for the biggest wave of the day or taking those set waves, where it's like, if they'd stood on the beach for 15 minutes before they'd gone out, it's kind of like maybe some of those mid-sized ones would have been a lot more enjoyable to surf.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Once everyone's finished surfing, they want to go somewhere else. When I was sort of your age and growing up, we just hung out at the beach. And if we weren't surfing, we usually didn't get out quick. We wouldn't sit in and watch, but we'd come in and have fun to eat and watch the surf and go back out again and just hang out at the beach. There was nothing else to do. There were no smartphones. There was just watch the beach. And I think you learn a lot from that—just watching.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, for sure. And it's watching the ocean in that sense, but it's then watching edits and videos of pros doing their thing, watching the comp surfers. Like, yeah, all of that stuff. It's all learning—whether you're breaking it down like I am with a camera, like frame by frame: right, what should this person have done here, or what would I have done there, or whatever. Whatever you're doing, I think as long as you're learning as a surfer—no matter what you're learning—as long as you're learning something to do with surfing, then you're going to be heading in the right direction. I think it's the moment that you stop learning that's probably when surfing, I don't know, may become boring or you're just not as interested in it anymore. Yeah, but I always... yeah. Everything from conditions to equipment to different surf spots, swell patterns, all of that, yeah, learning's big, I reckon.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I'm wondering—I always ask this question for everyone—but you have a unique perspective on it because you watch surfing a lot, and probably a lot of average surfing. But what's the biggest mistake you think that beginners and intermediate surfers make?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I think... probably rushing again, like I say. I think a lot of people—yeah, a combination of wave selection and people just rushing. Especially in that kind of intermediate phase of just trying to go on any wave that comes to them. Yeah, where stopping and watching can just... yeah, I think it can improve your surfing a lot. Because it's one thing to be a good surfer, but to be able to read a wave and read the ocean and all of that, and to be able to perform at a wave that's ever-changing in front of you is—yeah, that's something quite different, I guess, to being able to do a crazy turn. I kind of dodged that question a bit.
**Michael Frampton**
No, I totally agree. Everyone's rushing. I find that in between waves... and not—like they check out.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. There's one thing that I've personally done with my own surfing recently is, after every wave, when I'm paddling back out—just once I get back out the back—even if there's a set coming or whatever, just stopping and thinking, right, what did I do well on that wave? What could I have done differently? Should that bottom turn have been a little bit deeper? When I hit that end section, should I have hit it a little bit earlier? Was I a little bit late to it? Transferred your weight in different ways? Just thinking about those things rather than just going, well, that was a bad wave, and then paddling back out and hoping that the next one's better. It's like that kind of learning and want to improve.
**Michael Frampton**
Photographing or even in the water—as soon as you're like, "I'm just going to go to the car and grab a snack"—then the wave... that's when the wave comes. That's when that's that set that wasn't a big set, and it popped out of nowhere. And yeah, that one hit the reef just perfectly. And it's the same thing when you're sitting out the back and you think, I just caught a set, I'm going to paddle back out and I'm going to talk to my friend. Yeah, and then that's when the set pops out of nowhere. So I think a lot of surfers don't understand that surfing is... if you're surfing for an hour, you've got to be focused on the ocean for an hour. Not just—not for one minute every five minutes.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's a funny one. I go out with some mates around here and a few of them are just... like surfing's their social life, you know? You've been working a week or whatever, and you go out on a Saturday morning for a wave, and they're just talking the whole time. And I feel bad, but sometimes I'm like, mid-conversation, I'm going on this wave. And they might not have seen it, or they're just out of position or whatever, but like, yeah, you've got to be focused on what's in front of you, otherwise you're going to miss the wave of the day. You're going to get caught inside by a big set. You know, you've got to be able to read what's happening in the ocean and react accordingly, essentially.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, sometimes you see a lot of good surfers have the ability to riff with you, but they might not look at you much. They're always just watching the horizon, and then halfway through a conversation, they just paddle away from you. And yeah, it kind of feels rude, but it's not really. They're there to surf. You might find, especially if you're new to surfing, you try and spark up a conversation and they won't even look at you.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, 100%. Some surfers...
**Michael Frampton**
They'll just blank you and maybe even paddle away from you. It's not because they're rude. In fact, if you went up to them when they're getting changed and asked to borrow some wax, they might be the nicest person you've ever met.
**Oscar Hetherington**
For sure, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
But when they're surfing, it's like... don't. It's like that's their time to focus on the ocean.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Exactly. And it's a classic thing, but I always like to try and—if you're chasing waves with mates or whatever—it's like, you've got so much other time to catch up with people. You're going out with your friends and you've got to drive half an hour to the beach—do all the talking then when you're driving to the beach. That's when you're cracking jokes and having a laugh and having fun. Surfing, you can still do that for sure. But when it's good, like, you don't want to miss the wave of the day because you're turned around checking out your mate's new board or whatever it is. Check it out in the car park. Or, like, you know, just... yeah, you've definitely got to focus on it. And as a photographer, that's a huge thing too, for a few reasons. I think it's when you're shooting in the water, that is. I think it's... I don't know, I've found myself once or twice thinking, I just nailed that shot. Should I check it on the back of your camera? And then you check it, and then the crazy set comes in and you're out of position all of a sudden. Yeah, you've got to be super aware when you're shooting in the water. It's quite hard to move as fast as well because you're in the water—you're not on a surfboard as such. You've just got flippers on, so it's a little bit harder to get around out there. So yeah, and that's another reason why I pay so much attention to the ocean. If there's tons of sweep down a point, for example, or whatever, and you want to shoot in the water, you've got to know what's going on. Because at the end of the day, the ocean's in charge. You can jump out there and think you're lined up for the perfect shot, and then all of a sudden you get caught in a rip and you're dragged a few hundred metres down the beach. You've got to walk all the way back up, you've burnt all your energy, you've got no photos—none of that. And that's hard work. Like, I've learnt myself the hard way many times. But...
**Michael Frampton**
What's your worst experience?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Like I say, that's happened to me once or twice—probably a few years ago when I was younger and you'd just pull up to the car park and go, "Holy moly, the surf's incredible." All your mates are there, or a bunch of really good locals are out there, and you just jump in and don't take the time to look. Yeah, I've had one or two times down south, jumping in, just not reading the rips or the sweep or whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you're, yeah, a kilometre down the beach going, "Far out, where are my mates? Where are we parked?" And at the end of the day, you just end up out of energy with nothing to show for it, and you could have avoided that situation completely if you'd stopped for five minutes and looked and figured things out a little bit. One memory that springs to mind was just after one of the COVID lockdowns. A few of my mates were all down in Dunedin studying, and uni was online and all of that. And we went out every day for probably a month to this spot down there that had really good sand. We were normally only three or four people in the water. And I think it must have been my first or second year shooting surfing, because I only had a 3:2, and it was the middle of winter. I went down there—we were shooting in the water for three or four hours, and I was just really cold. Like, got to the point where I couldn't press the buttons on my camera, and my fingers just felt like rocks—just, yeah, there was no movement in them. My feet were the same, and it was probably about a half-hour walk back to the car up this quite big hill. And I thought, yeah, it's all good, walking back up the hill in my wetsuit and all that, I'll warm up, don't overthink it kind of thing. And then I remember walking back up the hill, and a few of my mates were talking to me, and I just remember... they, like, a couple of times were like, "You're all right, you're slurring your words a bit," and I was like, "No, I'm fine," whatever kind of thing. Then got to the car, and I couldn't do simple things like open the car door or find my car keys, and things like that. And I, yeah, would have had some mild form of hypothermia.
**Michael Frampton**
Sounds like it, yeah. For sure. Yeah.
**Oscar Hetherington**
But I kind of got to the point where I was like, no, just—the waves are firing, I'll just keep shooting. And then, yeah, I was young, had the wrong equipment for sure. So I went home that night and, yeah, bought a full-on winter wetsuit with a hood, some new booties, some gloves, all of that. Because yeah, I just got taught a lesson that day. Yeah, if anyone else has been in a similar experience, you'll know it takes like the rest of the day to warm up basically. You get home, have a hot shower, have hot food, you know, and you just can't feel much. Basically, you can't really think, you're kind of just lethargic and slow. Yeah, that was probably one of the scariest moments, for sure. And I think that was inexperience on my part. Maybe a bit of overconfidence being young, but yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You're lucky. You've learnt the lesson there. Not the easy way, but not the hard way either.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, I think it was like on the fence that day.
**Michael Frampton**
What's the biggest waves you've been out in, either surfing or shooting?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I think I've definitely surfed a few days down south where it's been pretty solid. Double overhead on a few of the points down there where you don't get many people. That's definitely the fastest I've gone on a surfboard as well. There's a left down there that I love, but yeah, you've got to... I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny point break. I'm not going to name it or anything, but the wave breaks along the point, just like a lot of point breaks. There's no beach or anything that it goes into. It kind of just sweeps past the coast and then just goes back to nothing—like it's just open ocean. And you sit out there some days, and it's so scary because the water's dark and deep and murky. There's kelp around, there's big sea lions, and yeah, that's probably some of the biggest and spookiest at the same time conditions that I've surfed in. But yeah, you get to go pretty fast down some of those waves, ride a bigger board as well, which is super fun. And yeah, don't worry too much about getting barreled or doing the perfect turn or anything. You're just hanging on for dear life. And then shooting... I've shot probably some similar conditions, but you've got to pick and choose when you shoot in the water versus on land, I find. Because at a point like that, shooting in the water—it's an option, but when it's that big and there's that much water moving and things like that, and you don't have a board, it's pretty high risk. Yeah, and there's not... down south where we did a lot of missions to remote waves and things like that. It's kind of like if something goes wrong down there, we've got no cell phone coverage, we're a two-hour drive from hospital or whatever. So you kind of just think, right, I might go surf, because you've got a flotation device, your mates are around and stuff, but if you're shooting, you're often sitting on the inside, the boys are focusing on surfing, they might be a few hundred meters away from you, so you're kind of by yourself. There's some big rocks around and all of that, so that's when I might choose to surf or shoot from land rather than get in the water. Yeah, so it's just kind of safety. I would love to shoot some bigger waves, but it's just the time and the place, really. You know, somewhere where there's a lot of people around, warm water—like, you see so many shots of Pipe and a lot of places like that. It's like... I'd like to say that I'd back myself to swim out and shoot some of those spots. I haven't ever had the chance to, and I'd still go in with the mindset that you've got to learn this wave and spend a lot of time watching it and all of that. Yeah, I think... comfort-wise, I'm confident in myself that it's doable. Yeah, some warm water would be nice, yeah. And just...
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Much nicer. Yeah, I guess we don't really get huge—well, nothing compared to Hawaii—here in New Zealand.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. Nah, not really swell-wise?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, not the 18, 20-second swells. They're pretty rare. Yeah. And the wind's all over it when we get them anyway.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. There's a funny story as well that springs to mind. I shot from land this day simply because it was huge and wild, but it was one of my favorite spots down at the bottom of the South Island. We drove in there—I think there were three mates and myself. We got the car stuck on the way in there, had to push it out of the ditch because there was a foot of snow on the ground, middle of winter. One of the guys forgot his booties, and he was like, "This is the best day ever." It was, yeah, double overhead barrels. Just crazy day. And the boys all went out, and within an hour one of them had come in with a snapped fin box and two others had snapped their boards. And we were just like, holy moly. It was just a massive storm—like four or five metre waves coming in, 40k an hour offshore, hail for half an hour, sun for half an hour, hail for half an hour. It was... yeah, that was a pretty full-on day. But it's, I don't know, one of those days that you'll remember for a while, because even though no one got the best wave of their life, I got a few photos but nothing crazy. But it was just, yeah, like, I don't know. We gave it a good go in the ocean and Mother Nature just showed us who's boss.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, those days—you got to keep going out though. You never know. The wind drops off for half an hour, and you get one of those waves. You can take a photo of one. Yeah. What about your own surfing? Like, how's that going? Do you film yourself to get better? In what ways are you progressing and learning?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I've never filmed myself, honestly. It's pretty rare. It's one of those funny things—like I'm always shooting and stuff like that, but if anyone wants to take any photos of me at any point, I'd love it, because it's pretty rare that anyone gets a photo or video of me doing something I love, which is surfing, really. But yeah, I'm definitely surfing a lot more now than I used to, because, like I say, I'm just shooting when it's really good. When it's like, yeah, one of the best days of the year kind of thing, that's when I'll shoot. And if it's not quite up to that standard, I'll go and surf. So I find that I'm surfing two or three times a week and shooting a couple times a month. Still, I like to keep my camera with me in case the conditions turn on even for half an hour or whatever. Doing some commercial shooting as well and shooting some fun lifestyle creative stuff, but definitely just focusing, yeah, on my own surfing. And more time in the water—it keeps you fit and healthy and all of that good stuff too.
**Michael Frampton**
You're not tempted to leave the camera on the dashboard, just on a tripod on the beach, film yourself?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. I don't know. I just need to become friends with a few photographers or pay someone to film me. But yeah. I'm not too worried about it. Like I say, it's always nice when someone does get a photo of you or a video or whatever, and then you can analyze it a little bit. But I think, yeah, like I mentioned earlier, when I surf nowadays, after most waves, I'll kind of break down what I think I could have done better or what I read wrong and things like that. So I think that's maybe one of the biggest ways that I'm kind of trying to improve my surfing—reflecting on it straight after it happens rather than getting back to the car and being like, "That was an alright surf," but not knowing why it was alright or why it could be better. It's kind of in the moment, reflecting on that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. No, self-reflection is one of the key things, and people are often scared to do it—they don't...
**Oscar Hetherington**
Want to. And it's definitely... there's always a fun side of surfing. Like, yeah, that's the main reason I surf is for fun obviously. But I do—like, you do want to get better, you know, as well. It's just a natural thing. Yeah, for sure. And I think too, like, I've tried to vary my surfing a little bit. I just used to only surf shortboards. I've got a log recently, which has just been super fun for when the conditions aren't perfect or when it's just waist-high, or like some of those smaller, more average days and stuff. Just finding different ways to enjoy surfing. And that's something that's kind of kept me hooked and kept me motivated. Even if you have a long flat spell for a month, you can still get out in the water and have some fun and try something different—new bits of equipment and stuff. But yeah, it keeps it interesting.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Switching up your equipment is huge for your surfing. Yeah. Having a quiver of boards for certain conditions, yes. Because then, when it is pumping and you jump back on your shortboard, you'd be surprised how much you've improved because you've been riding different boards and reading waves differently because of...
**Oscar Hetherington**
It. And I think as well, one area—I guess it's kind of improving my surfing—but it's just looking into equipment more and why certain boards or shapes or fin setups or whatever work better in certain conditions, and why things feel different under your feet as well. I think a lot of surfers, I don't know, they may go buy a new board and be like, "Right, it's got to be six foot and 34 litres," or whatever. That's all that matters. But it's like, no, there's a whole lot more to it. And maybe that comes from a photography point of view where there's a lot of technical aspects to it and stuff. Maybe that's what interests me about it. But the equipment side of surfing is something I'm—like, you can always learn more about surfboards and yeah, all...
**Michael Frampton**
Of that stuff. Sometimes you don't need a brand-new 1D, $15,000 camera. In every situation, sometimes a Polaroid actually might be more suitable for what you want. Or same with surfing.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Whatever. Yeah, 100%.
**Michael Frampton**
I see especially around here... sometimes I go to Te Awanga, and it's waist-high, and there's people out on these skinny shortboards that are meant for double overhead barrels. Yeah. And that... they're not catching waves. They're getting angry. I'm like, yeah. Like the amount of it—it's sort of like taking a Ferrari out where a Land Cruiser should be.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
It makes no sense. So yeah, choosing the right board for the conditions and stepping away from that performance shortboard I think is... whereas overseas, especially in California, people are embracing the bigger, more alternative surfboards. I mean, look at some of the Album Surf... if you follow them at all. Yeah. Even when pros—when pros stop, when they're not competing—they're not on those boards either. They're on a fish or some weird shape or a longer board or whatever.
**Oscar Hetherington**
No, very rarely. Only the good days, yeah. And all of that—trying different equipment and surfing different spots—they go hand in hand. But it's that new experience or new feeling or experimenting and exploring—that's what keeps it interesting. You know what I mean? It's like you never quite know what you're going to get. But yeah, equipment—like, it's... yeah, surfboards. Super interesting. I think the rabbit hole with surfboards is a lot bigger than most surfers realize. Like you say, people will go out when it's waist-high, and they'll be on a shortboard that's super high performance, like 28 litres or whatever, and it's just like, maybe you should have brought a mid-length out, or a log, or just something different.
**Michael Frampton**
Yes. People think *Stab in the Dark* is enough variance in surfboards where they're refining...
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. Millimetres.
**Michael Frampton**
It doesn't make any sense to me. I think big surfboards are underrated—hugely.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. It's so much fun surfing on a longboard or a log, in my opinion. It's different as well—you have to read the wave differently, you have to react differently. Or, you react and the board doesn't. It takes a lot longer. But yeah, it all improves your surfing and keeps it fun and exciting. I think that's super important.
**Michael Frampton**
Too. You mentioned exploration and adventure a lot. How important is that to you?
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. Reflecting back on it now, it's why I got into photography—why I picked up a camera—was because I loved going to new places with friends. And normally it was a sport or an activity or an adventure or whatever that would take us to those new spots. And I think, I don't know, the whole... I feel like there's just so much to see in the world and so much to do that it's like, why be content with surfing the same beach break week after week? You know what I mean? You can drive an hour from your hometown, and I bet there's a beach that you haven't been to.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And there's probably no one surfing it.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Know. Yeah. I've had some experiences recently when it's... yeah, we have looked at Google Earth and watched swell patterns and weather forecasts and things like that, and yeah, driven an hour from here and scored perfect waves with no one around. And I'm kind of like, wow. Like, why not? Like, what? You know what I mean? Like... if you're, yeah, I think if you're willing to go on an adventure and like, put yourself out there, give it a crack... you know, what's the worst that can happen? For sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Yeah, that's what they say. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Especially with surfing.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. And I think that there's so many... like, back to surfing being more than just standing up on a wave—the whole culture and lifestyle around it—the adventure side of it is, like, I love that just as much as I love surfing. Because you can read a swell for a couple of days, make a plan with your friends, go on a road trip, camp out for the weekend, and like, yeah, you might spend four or five hours surfing over that weekend, but you might spend four or five hours in a car, sitting around a campfire telling stories, cracking jokes, walking around the rock pools, going snorkeling, going fishing, whatever it may be. But those are all, like, side effects of going surfing essentially, but they're all so much fun. So it's like, why not go on an adventure, and surfing might be the excuse.
**Michael Frampton**
Often you don't—you get skunked, you don't get any waves. Yeah. But you don't regret.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Going. Exactly. Yeah. Some of, like, most of the best stories and the funniest memories and things like that are from surf trips that are... like, it's not when you're surfing the funny moments always happen, or the best times always are.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So you mentioned the Follow the Light, right? And you said that was a goal of yours. Yeah. And you achieved that. What's next?
**Oscar Hetherington**
It's a good question. I think... it's a funny one. Winning the Follow the Light last year, that's... I don't know. I feel like there's almost more pressure now than before. Because looking at my name on that list of other people that have won it in the past and seeing their work from when they've won it, they've somehow managed to keep making amazing imagery or new imagery or finding new angles, all sorts of stuff like that. So I feel like now it's kind of like... I know there's, yeah, there's a lot that I want to shoot all around the world, and there's lots of different ways to shoot spots that have been shot hundreds of times before too. Goal-wise, I guess, in competitions with photography and things like that, I'd love to be recognized or do something with National Geographic at some point. It's not super related to surfing as such, but it's more just... like, some of their photographers and stuff over the years have been the best in the world—captured the most amazing images that people will talk about for years and years to come. You know what I mean? You could pick up one of their magazines from 20 years ago and a lot of people will recognize that photo. So yeah, I'd love to do something either with them or win one of their awards. I think that would be... yeah, I do.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you do more photography outside of surfing or...?
**Oscar Hetherington**
I guess my main focus is surfing and seascapes and things like that. But within reason, anything that interests me or inspires me, I'll shoot it as well. Yeah, but then there's... not always to—like fishing, for example, I'm never going to take photos of fishing. I'll go fishing. Or I'll go ride my bike or go tramping or whatever it may be, but I'm probably not going to shoot those things anymore. I'm just focusing on shooting surfing. Yeah. One day I'd love... I sell prints at the moment, which is awesome. I think that's probably the best way to appreciate photography—blowing it up big, framed on the wall, whether it's an office or in your house or wherever it may be. I think print is slowly dying with surfing magazines and things like that. Everyone still loves seeing a photo blown up big. You can appreciate that a lot more than looking at it on your phone, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think one day, pushing that further, I'd love to make a book of some sort. When I was at university, I made one—like, just a 130-page kind of magazine. I only made 100 copies, I think, of it, which is cool to look back on. But yeah, I'd love to come up with some big adventure that kind of deserves to have a book made about it. Yeah, if that makes sense. I'm not sure exactly what that would look like at the moment, but whether it's... I know a few ideas could be driving around the whole of South America for a year or two with a couple of mates and just going surfing, exploring new cultures, new places, food, people, landscapes, waves, all of that. But yeah, I mean, like, who wouldn't love to look at a book full of cool images of a trip like that, you know what I mean? Yeah, and going... for me, travelling and adventure and things like that—going to different places that are out of the way, that are harder to get to, that are more dangerous—whatever, that makes them more interesting to me. Yeah, everyone goes to Hawaii. Everyone goes to Fiji. Everyone goes to Indonesia and stuff, and they have some of the best waves in the world. But you've seen photos of them hundreds and hundreds of...
**Michael Frampton**
Times. It's been done to death. Yeah. Yeah, I want to see it. Sounds like you're very photojournalistically inclined.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah. In a way. Yeah, I think so, definitely. Yeah. You would have seen some of the boys—Guy Williment and Spencer Frost and Lettie, and a few of those other boys all went to Russia. Yeah, they went surfing on the—I think it was the Kamchatka Peninsula, which is above Japan. Yeah, surfed in the snow over there for three months. I'm like, that's awesome. No one's been over there, surfed over there, lived over there—well, from our point of view, you know what I mean? It's just something so out there and so unique that... yeah, that inspires me. And trips like that are what I'd love to do. Why not go to Chile or... thank you, I don't know... yeah, Africa, Madagascar, India. Like, you know, there's a lot of countries out there with incredible coastline.
**Michael Frampton**
A lot of islands. Yeah. Around, not far from New Zealand, like Norfolk Island. I'm sure it's been shot before—waves.
**Oscar Hetherington**
But... probably got good. Yeah, one of my big goals would be travelling and shooting and surfing, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
I'd say so. Yeah.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Where to first? I don't know. Good question. There's too many options at the moment.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, well, you never know what might happen with the Billabong...
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, exactly. Might lead, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Somewhere else. Yeah.
**Oscar Hetherington**
And it's a funny one too. I find a lot of people all around the world—but in New Zealand too—they'll go on surf trips to Hawaii or Indonesia, Bali, wherever. But I feel like there's so many good waves that are undiscovered around New Zealand too. A lot of them have been discovered now, but like, yeah, there's still places I haven't been to—Taranaki yet. Yeah, which blows your mind, but you know, it's only a few hours in the car.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, there's places everywhere. I mean, I lived in California, which is crowded. It's crazy crowded. But you can drive half an hour out of town and surf by yourself.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
And that's true almost anywhere. If you're willing to go a little bit further than everyone else, you find waves that aren't crowded. And that's what every surfer listening to this wants—uncrowded waves.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
Everyone's complaining about how crowded it is, but just get in the car or travel. I think travel and adventure is certainly not lost in surfing. It's not as... the surfing magazines used to document it so much—yeah, that whole travelling adventure aspect of it. And now it's all, like you said, it's all the best shots from Hawaii or whatever swells.
**Oscar Hetherington**
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Another person that's inspired me a lot, shooting-wise, has been Nick Green. I don't know if you've seen some of his stuff. He's based in Tasmania in Aussie. And I don't know, he's just... he's an amazing photographer. But he's shooting waves that a lot of people, like, don't know where they are. You know, no one's seen them before. And he's got some good mates who are incredible surfers who make the place look amazing too. But it's all this new imagery coming out. Everyone's seen shots of Snapper and Bells and WA and Margaret River and all of that. But like Tasmania... yeah, it'll be cold and stuff, but yeah, there's awesome waves everywhere. So just got to go out and find them, I guess, really.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Yeah. Go out and find them. That's a good place to end, man. Thanks so much for taking the time to...
**Oscar Hetherington**
Chat. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thanks very much for having me on.

95 Oscar Hetherington - Award Winning Surf Photographer
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**94 Iain "Ratso" Buchanan - The Eternal Grom** Feb 19, 2024

Can you stay surf-stoked into your 60s—and still out-paddle the groms? Iain “Ratso” Buchanan proves it’s possible.
This episode dives into the life and lessons of one of New Zealand’s most accomplished surfers and coaches. From humble beginnings and DIY wetsuits to judging the WSL’s best, Ratso shares how to extend your surfing life, read the ocean like a pro, and why so many surfers—especially beginners—are missing the most important skills.
Learn what *actually* holds back New Zealand surfers and how to level up by heading across the ditch
Hear untold stories of surf culture evolution—from rugby jerseys to custom twin-fins
Discover life-saving advice for adult learners, including the #1 ocean skill you must master first
Press play now to learn how a lifelong frother stays sharp, safe, and stoked—and how you can too.
Iain's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ratsonz/?hl=en
Surf Shop: https://lionrocksurfshop.com
Music: Fernweh by Nachur
**Key Points**
Ian Buchanan's lifelong passion for surfing, starting from his early years in Christchurch, and his diverse roles in the surfing industry including competitor, coach, shaper, and judge, were discussed.
The evolution of wetsuit technology from the 60s to the present, including homemade wetsuits and the current ease of access to high-quality, affordable wetsuits, was explored.
Ian's advice for young New Zealand surfers to improve their skills by traveling to Australia, where the level of competition and wave quality is higher, was emphasized.
The importance of swimming ability and understanding ocean conditions for adult learners in surfing was highlighted, with Ian sharing his experience and advice.
Ian discussed the influence of experienced surfers, particularly older ones, in reading the ocean and navigating challenging conditions, citing examples of surfers he admires.
Ian shared his current favorite surfboard, a 5'7 20 with a stabilizer, and his experimentation with different board designs and materials, emphasizing the importance of local craftsmanship.
The best and worst surfing advice Ian has received, emphasizing the importance of surfing within one's comfort zone and avoiding dangerous conditions, was discussed.
**Outline**
**Ian Buchanan's Background and Passion for Surfing**
Ian Buchanan, born in the 60s, started surfing in the early 70s and has been deeply involved in the surfing industry ever since.
Ian has been a long-time judge for the WSL, a five-time national champion in New Zealand during the 80s, shapes surfboards, owns a surf shop, and was the New Zealand national team coach.
Ian was on the world tour as a competitor when younger and was crowned the Grand Master World Champ in 2011.
Ian's passion for surfing began at an early age, leaving high school at 15 to pursue surfing full-time.
Ian moved to Australia at 16, where they faced high unemployment and started working at Genius Surfboards in Cronulla.
**Wetsuit Technology in the 60s**
In the 60s, wetsuit technology for young surfers was minimal, often consisting of long Johns with a vest underneath.
Surfers would make their own booties and gloves from sheets of rubber purchased from dive shops.
Before wetsuits, surfers wore rugby jerseys to stay warm in cold water.
**Ian's Current Relationship with Surfing**
Ian surfs almost every day, describing themselves as a 'grommet at heart'.
Ian's friends often tease them about their passion for surfing.
Ian surfs multiple times a day, regardless of conditions, and has been very lucky with injuries throughout their career.
**Ian's Surfing Longevity**
Ian attributes their surfing longevity to following their heart and pursuing what they love.
Ian's marriage ended, and they traveled to Europe, following their passion for surfing.
Ian has made many connections in Australia, which have helped in their surfing career, including board making and judging.
**Ian's Advice for Young Surfers**
Ian advises young New Zealand surfers to travel to Australia to take their surfing to the next level.
Ian mentions that all successful New Zealand surfers, such as Maz, Randy Mason, and Paige, have spent time in Australia.
Ian emphasizes the importance of the quality and consistency of waves in Australia for improving surfing skills.
**Ian's Experience as a WSL Judge**
Ian describes the experience of judging WSL events as amazing and surreal, seeing the highest level of surfing live.
Ian notes that the level of surfing raises every year and that surfers go much faster on waves than the average person realizes.
Ian highlights the importance of learning to surf different types of waves and reading the ocean to improve one's surfing.
**Ian's Most Intense Surfing Experience**
Ian's most intense surfing experience was at Sunset, where they got beaten by a wave and had to climb their leg rope to reach the surface.
Ian also mentions memorable waves in Tahiti, J-Bay, and Hawaii, particularly Sunset.
**Advice for Adult Learners in Surfing**
Ian emphasizes the importance of having a good level of swimming ability before learning to surf.
Ian advises adult learners to be aware of their abilities and not to surf in conditions beyond their skill level.
Ian shares a personal experience of having to swim in after breaking their leash in challenging conditions.
**Surfers Ian Admires**
Ian admires surfers like John, Medina, Dane Reynolds, and several other top performers for their incredible maneuvers and wave negotiation skills.
Ian respects the older generation of surfers for their experience and ability to read the ocean, citing examples like Peter Cole and Kelly Slater.
Ian highlights the rise in the level of women's surfing and the surge of young talent in the sport.
**Ian's Current Favorite Surfboard**
Ian's current favorite surfboard is a 5'7" 20 with a stabilizer that they made themselves.
Ian has been experimenting with different boards and fins, including single fins, and has been inspired by other shapers like Greg Weber.
Ian enjoys riding old boards collected by Daniel Davey, son of Bob Davey, and appreciates the craftsmanship of local shapers.
**Ian's Best and Worst Surfing Advice**
Ian's best surfing advice is to surf within one's ability and not to step out of their comfort zone unless they are comfortable with the conditions.
Ian's worst surfing advice was being talked into surfing in dangerous conditions, which led to severe consequences and a negative experience.
Ian advises against surfing alone, emphasizing the importance of having a partner for safety.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the first episode for 2024. Just finished the summer holidays here in New Zealand. Been surfing almost every day with the kids, which has been a blessing. I actually recorded this episode with Iain Buchanan, the eternal grom, just before the school holidays. So I got a nice little hit of inspiration. Iain was born in the '60s and started surfing in the early '70s. And still... out there chasing waves, surfing multiple times a day. Even though he's been so deeply involved with surfing for so long, he's still just got this fascination with surfing. You may already know who Iain “Ratso” Buchanan is—his most famous role internationally, at least within surfing, is he's been a long-time judge for the WSL. In New Zealand during the '80s, he was five times national champ. He shapes surfboards here in New Zealand. He owns a surf shop here in New Zealand. He used to be the New Zealand national team coach. He was on the world tour as a competitor when he was younger. In 2011 he was crowned the Grand Master World Champ. The list goes on, but without further ado... I give you my conversation with Iain “Ratso” Buchanan.
**Michael Frampton**
I don't think there's anything that you haven't done in the surfing industry. You've been a high-level competitor, both young and old. Like you've coached at a high level, you shape, you've got a surf shop, you're judging. It's like, I don't think there's anything—there's nothing more left for you to do, man. Where does all this passion for surfing come from?
**Iain Buchanan**
I just knew at an early age, you know, that's all I wanted to do. I grew up in Christchurch and I... you know, it's pretty cold there in the winter and that, and I got to the point I was like, I left high school pretty early, like 15, and I passed my school certificate but I didn't hang around for university. I just couldn't fathom studying more and stuff like that. I just wanted to go surfing. I left and went to Australia. I'd just turned 16, yeah, so... I just always had the passion. I wanted to travel and go and surf the waves I was seeing in the magazines and stuff like that, and yeah, and I was interested in boards and stuff. When I was over in Australia, it was like, I was in '77 I went, you know. It was quite high unemployment there, and my sister was living over there—my older sister and her husband—they'd moved down to a place called Port Lincoln in South Australia. And they do the tuna fishing from there. And I just couldn't get any work, you know. And I was like, so I just wrote all these surfboard businesses in Australia, like on Gold Coast and Sydney and... I don't know where I’m going with that. And I got offered a job at Genius Surfboards in Cronulla. So that's how I got into that side of it. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. So you started surfing in Christchurch in the '70s. What was wetsuit technology like back then?
**Iain Buchanan**
For a grommet, it was fucking zero. And I was, you know, you'd buy, like say, an extra small, you know, that might hopefully fit you. Yeah. But it was always long johns with a vest underneath, you know? Yeah. And me and my friends, a couple friends, we used to go to like a dive shop and you could buy sheets or like a square sheet of rubber and we made our own booties and gloves. That's true. Yeah, and it was with dust glue. I can stitch them up because it was so cold, but no one made a wetsuit for teenagers or kids, you know? Yeah. And we used to wear—even before that—we used to wear rugby jerseys and pretend we were warm, you know? It's like, I mean, we'd surf through winter and it's amazing none of us got hypothermia really, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. Now everyone's jumping in ice baths and sort of recreating that.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, we used to go to Kaikōura in school holidays and places like that and just camp on the point in a tent for a couple of weeks at Mangamaunu and that's it. It was a good time.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. Yeah. The barrier to entry for surfing back then was you had to want it, right? If you wanted to surf, you had to put up with some of those things.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah. I had a friend that I grew up across the road from me. Originally, my parents lived just inland from the beach, place of St Albans, now Māori Hill, and we actually made trailers on the back of our bikes we could put boards on to bike to the beach, you know. And we used to ride to Brighton. We used to ride to Sumner as well. So it was a fair hike, you know, for a 12-year-old grommet or whatever, a 10-year-old grommet.
**Michael Frampton**
And then we were texting last week and you're still out there chasing swell, and so do you surf every day?
**Iain Buchanan**
Pretty much. I'm still a grommet at heart, I'd say, and my friends sort of, you know, they hassle me about that.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. How would you describe your current relationship with surfing and the oceans?
**Iain Buchanan**
I mean, if there's waves, I'll surf as much as I can. We've had a couple of swells recently on the East Coast. I surfed three times a day, like three days in a row, you know. So, yeah, I'm pretty much a grommet, you know. I'm the biggest grommet at Piha and, yeah. I don't care if it's shitty or onshore or whatever, I just go out, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Has there been periods in your life where you haven't surfed much by injury or work or anything like that?
**Iain Buchanan**
That's a good question. Yes. I've been very lucky with injuries, touch wood. Most of my career I haven't had anything major at all. But yeah, I got locked into business quite a bit in Auckland, and I came back from Australia permanently sort of 1990. The guy who I teamed up with—we had the Hot Buttered agency, right? I used to work for Territory Bureau in Sydney for 12 years. And so we'd moved shop to Newmarket, which is like the prime area of retail in Auckland City, and we were probably the first kind of big-scale surf shop and it really took off, you know. We had off-street parking, which was a big factor there because it's such a hassle for parking and stuff. We actually put the surfboard factory underneath the shop, you know, so we had two levels and yeah, it was cranking. Basically, I was sort of sales repping the clothing we were doing, and we were bringing other stuff in. We were doing Burford blanks and other brands from overseas. So yeah, I was working 60–70 hours a week. Maybe surfing on Sunday if I was lucky. So yeah, that was one time I was not surfing as much as I'd like to, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So what do you attribute your surfing longevity to?
**Iain Buchanan**
I've always kind of like... when I was there, and I—because I'd been on the tour—and I got married at 33, and then I worked solidly doing that for like 10 years almost. And then I got invited to go to the Masters a couple of times, and then I didn't go. And then I finally went and I had a little spark in me again, you know, and it’s like, wow, it felt like I was like... it was going to be marriage, kids, the picket fence, and that’s your life. And it's like, I was just like, shit, I'm too young for it, you know. I felt like there's more to life, you know. Yeah, so my marriage kind of finished and I bailed and went to Europe and... I just followed my heart and that's what I wanted to do, you know, so yeah. And I had made a lot of connections in Australia, and that's helped me a lot in my life with overseas stuff and, yeah, in board making and judging circles and stuff like that. So yeah, I just... that's all I want to do is be involved in surfing, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So is it literally as simple as just the froth for chasing swells and just seeking that next surf and surfing itself? Is it that simple? Is that what keeps you going?
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, I mean, I wake up every day pretty much like most surfers, and I just watch the surf lights. So, yeah, I’m in a lucky position that... well, because of my overseas work, I have a little surf shop at Piha, so I've got quite a lot of freedom, you know. And we have a house we rent out as well. I can do that, you know, and my partner’s very... she’s very accommodating. She knows what she’s signed up for going out with me. You know, it’s... yeah. She's from Wamberal. So she’s been brought up with the whole surfing culture too. So yeah, she loves traveling. So if there’s any waves, I'm going.
**Michael Frampton**
And then throughout your surfing journey, have you ever... have you ever hit sort of plateaus in your progression? And is there anything that you’ve learned? Have you had surf coaching done before? Like how did you get so good at surfing?
**Iain Buchanan**
I think the biggest—not a single—most important reason was I went to Australia. For sure, you know. And I didn’t realise—I was okay as a little junior in Christchurch—but no, and then I went to Australia and when I went to Cronulla, it was like another whole world opened up. In South Australia, it was like we were... Port Lincoln’s like... it's quite out there, and it was like we used to surf at places like Streaky Bay and this place—the right-hander at Cape Fowler, not Cape Fowler, I can’t remember, there's a bay near Port Lincoln—it’s right-handed, but, and Cactus and places like that, but it’s like basically in the desert, you know. And it was super sharky, you know, and I think pretty crazy back in those days at 16. I’d never go back there and do that again, but we did it. But when I went to Cronulla, that was just dog-eat-dog and the level was so high, you know, and that’s where I progressed quickly, you know. Hard to get a wave. You know, it was... and being one of the only kind of Kiwis there too, so I used to cop all the shit from those Australian guys. And you just learn to be tougher and more hungry kind of thing and get the mongrel in you. And I... my level rose a lot, yeah, and I didn’t really realise it until I came back to New Zealand and they started the... like a national circuit—I think it was like 1980—and I came back and I started winning contests and I didn’t realise I was that good, you know, and I thought, shit, I'm okay, you know. And then, you know, then the thruster happened—it was ’81—so things changed like that too. But yeah, like the New Zealand circuit, that’s where I first realised I had... you know. And then Gerry Fitzgerald, he saw me at one event—he came over to New Zealand—and he offered me a deal. That included like shaping for him, like so to have a job as well. So that was very cool. Yeah. It was a big part of my life, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
So if there's any young New Zealand surfers that want to take their surfing to the next level, would that be your advice? To travel, go to Australia?
**Iain Buchanan**
Definitely go to Australia. And I’ve been telling just about all the young kids I’ve been talking to here—you’ve got to do that. I mean, everyone that has made it in New Zealand, like Maz and... Randy Mason and his sister Sarah and Paige and, you know, as well as Jay, you know, Bobby and yeah, anyone who’s any good, and Ricardo Christie of course, but you’ve got to go. You can’t win in Australia or beat your Australians... like you’re not going to make it on the world tour. It's, you know, that’s the real... I mean, we’re lucky we have got Australia there to have those opportunities. And I don’t think a lot of people realise how major it was. Like Maz won the overall Australian title—you know, the best junior—and Arini did that twice, to beat all the Australians in Australia. It was super hard, you know? Yeah. And Kahu's done that too. That’s the best thing for sure: go to Australia.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember when I grew up surfing in New Zealand and then I didn’t get to Australia till I was in my 30s, and I ended up on the Northern Beaches. And was just blown away by not only the level of surfing and the rawness and mongrel-ness, as you said, of the surfers themselves, but just the quality and consistency of waves. You know, just surfing good waves almost every day. And there's no continental shelf. You know, New Zealand has such a big continental shelf, so the swell almost gets sort of dissipated. Even when the swell is big here in New Zealand, it sort of comes in with so much less energy than it does in Australia. So I just saw my surfing level increase so much just by living in Australia for a while. Yeah. So I can second that. Yeah.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah. I mean, most of the kids in Australia, everyone’s lived around the coast, especially the East Coast, so they have quite an easy access to the beach at an early age. They can just ride their bike after school or whatever, where a lot of places in New Zealand, they don’t have that as much access. And the areas where they do, traditionally the best surfers do come from New Zealand, like your Gisborne or your Raglan or your New Plymouth or some parts of Auckland or whatever, Northland. But yeah, because they can easily get to the beach quite easily on their own, you know, on the bike or whatever. But yeah. I mean, I remember at Canberra, even the average guy, some of the thugs at the pub, you know, the local drunks—you’d see them out in the surf one day. They could usually surf pretty good too, you know. So it’s, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good fun there. Australia was really good.
**Michael Frampton**
And what about—so you’ve obviously traveled with the WSL and ASP as a judge, and you’ve been around, you know, the best surfers in the world. What has that experience taught you about surfing, and how has it affected your own approach to surfing?
**Iain Buchanan**
It’s amazing to be involved with all that. And it’s like, what you see is the level just raises all the time, like every year. And so it’s like, yeah, it’s pretty surreal to see what’s possible, you know, and see it live. And I think from New Zealand—going even now—like, people don’t realize how fast these surfers surf on a wave. They actually go a lot faster than what you see the average. I mean, the quality of the waves we have in New Zealand, there should be more better surfers, really, you know. And that’s quite a weird thing. I think it’s mainly the population, I guess. But you see, yeah, and I think it’s just the same thing—like seeing that, being around all these guys at that level—yeah, I just try and push myself as much as possible too, you know. And surfing a lot of different waves too is a factor, and that helps your surfing and learning how to surf those different waves and reading waves and what different things—reefs or deep sea waves like at Sunset and places like that—stuff you don’t usually get to surf. So yeah, that’s... it’s a learning curve the whole time, you know. And we stay at a house at Sunset every year. They put us in this house, and it’s right in front. It’s like where we actually judge from this contest. And so we pretty much surf that most of the time. And that’s—you know, you get the biggest wave of your whole year pretty much every year. And you’ll get the biggest beating of the whole year, you know? So it’s a humbling experience, but it’s pretty fun, you know. So you step out of your comfort zone, and so you’ve got to crack out seven-footers and eight-footers—waves you don’t usually ride, you know—so that’s a learning curve, big time.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. It is interesting how you don’t—look, obviously there’s been a handful of surfers that have made the highest level of surfing from New Zealand—but it’s not really happening for us. Whereas the Aussies are dominating, right? And then the Americans, they travel to Hawaii and they have those experiences there, and they’re up there. Why do you think that is? Because New Zealand—look at rugby. We’re dominant at rugby. We’re right up there with lots of other team sports. We seem to be able to compete internationally. But surfing... why do you think that is?
**Iain Buchanan**
I think initially, if you want to go the competition route, it’s like—you need money, you need sponsorship. So that’s a hard thing. And traditionally, the Australian—you know, all the companies are Australian-owned, not so much these days. But so, yeah, I mean, it’s like basically you need to have a good sponsorship to be able to do that. There’s been periods—like the best generation, I think, was when there was Maz and Daniel Kereopa and, yeah, there’s Blair Stewart and, you know, Chrissy Malone and, you know, and then Bobby Hansen and Jay Quinn came up. You know, like that sort of era was one of the best growth groups through the juniors right through to the Open. Like Maz and Kereopa were winning QSs overseas, which is pretty unbelievable really. And Paige too—she won Margaret River, you know. On the steps, every time you walk up the steps, there’s her name, you know. So it’s like, yeah, it’s the same. The Aussies had dominance for quite a while. But then it swings. And the Brazilian thing has been happening. You know, they’ve had the last four world champions. So things go in swings, you know. And the Brazilians for many years were showing the potential, and once their generation came through with the Medinas and all that, you know—that’s the same with Tom Curren and, you know, so yeah. There hasn’t been an American... yeah, apart from what’s happening now, for quite a while either, really.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Maybe we’ll get our turn soon.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah. But I mean, Ricardo Christie—he made podium, and what was it? Haleiwa? Sunset? Yeah, he’s pretty good. Yeah, Sunset. Yeah, so that’s—you know, he’s made the podium the last eight years. Pretty epic, you know. So I think he’s the first guy since... Fancey, no? Back in the day. Yeah. But it takes time on those sort of waves too, you know. You just can’t rock up. There’s very few guys who just rock up and dominate, you know, like that. Maybe Occy or Tom Carroll or someone like that at Pipe. But they’re the freaks, you know. I mean, Dino—you’ve got to really want it, like you said at the beginning. Some of those kids that you get over in those sort of places—I mean, Jason Matthews from New Plymouth, he was really good. Yeah, he was good in the hotel, yeah. Yeah, so it’s like those sort of things, you know. If you’re used to sort of surfing more powerful waves, you know, no problem with size. Kereopa’s good at that. And there’s a few other guys too in the country who are pretty good at it. So hats off to them, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
All those names you just listed in New Zealand surfing just reminds me of the Coastal Disturbance series. Videos.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, Blair Stewart was the... he was just—what he used to do in Hawaii and stuff—it was crazy, you know. Like, he had big respect from a lot of people. Yeah. Sam Willis. Sam Willis is another good one. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What’s been your most intense surfing experience, and where was it?
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, probably Sunset for sure, I’d say, as far as getting beatings. I had my vest tied to my board shorts, right, you know—I had to have it. Yeah. And it was only about three years ago, and I made the drop on this wave, but the lip kind of landed behind me on the back of the board, and I got sort of pretty much drilled, you know. And I got pushed right down, and my vest went up and over my head. And I’m under the water trying to get it back over my head, and it’s just like—I’m down, you know, deep, and I’m trying to get up, and it lasted a while, you know, and I was kind of starting to freak a bit. And I ended up having to climb up my leg rope to get to the surface. Pretty freaky. And then the next one hit me. So that was something I’ll never forget, yeah. Yeah. I’ve had—as far as, you know, like good, yeah, memorable waves—I like Tahiti. I’ve been going there for a long time. And a little bit Indo and J-Bay. Pretty epic. Yeah, I love J-Bay. And I’ve had good memories of Tahiti for a long time going there. And I love Hawaii too, mostly Sunset, because that’s where we hang. And yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
So what about in terms of the surf culture—like, let me ask you, if I was to start—if I was an adult learner and I wanted to get into surfing... obviously, it’s really easy nowadays. You get a reasonably cheap wetsuit—wetsuits are so good now—even a cheap one’s going to fit well and keep you warm. You get a cheap soft top, and you just get a lesson from the local surf school, and next thing you know you think you’re a surfer. But that seems to, I think—that easy entry into surfing leaves a lot of things off the table. And there’s a lot of, sort of—I guess those adult learners can be looked down upon by more experienced surfers. What do you think is missing from that education? And if there’s anything that you wanted to say to these new surfers, what would it be?
**Iain Buchanan**
Have a reasonably good level of swimming—ability to swim. And that’s something my father taught. He was always a good swimmer, and when he realised the surfing thing was just not a phase and that it was my thing, he said, “Right.” He made me come to a swimming pool. He made me learn to swim a mile before he let me keep doing it all the time, which is pretty... yeah. To be able to swim and have that ability—I think it’s super important. And like you say, people like that can get in a situation pretty quickly where they’re just out of their depth, you know. And it’s funny when you see people—well, not funny—but it’s ironic. You see people in those situations, and a lot of people—they get off their board for some reason, you know, and they don’t realise it’s a flotation device that can help, you know. So yeah, I think be aware of their ability too. You know, like, I mean, surfing’s—you’re dealing with the ocean. It’s like nowhere the same. It’s one of the only sports like that, where you’re dealing with Mother Nature. Because you can go, like, snowboarding, say—pretty much anyone can sort of reasonably do it in a day. You know? Be able to go down a mountain, you know? Like, you can turn and have an okay day and enjoy yourself. But surfing, you can try, you know, for six months or a year, and you can still be nowhere near what you think you would be like, you know. So I’ve got my little surf shop at Piha—Lion Rock Surf Shop—and I do a lot of rentals. And a lot of times, people come in and I just go, I won’t rent because the conditions are too bad, you know. And they’ll insist on it, and I’ll go, “Look, go down. You look to the beach. Go and look at the beach,” you know. “Go and check it out. It’s like way bigger and nastier than you think.” You know? “Yeah. And there’s a reason why there’s no one out,” you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. No, if you can’t swim the conditions, you shouldn’t be out there trying to surf the conditions.
**Iain Buchanan**
No.
**Michael Frampton**
No. I remember I was out surfing Germans on the Northern Beaches, and it was close to triple overhead. And it’s quite far out from the shore, and I broke my leash. And I had to swim in. And, you know, in a four-metre swell, and it’s a good, you know, almost half a k out to sea. And if my swimming fitness hadn’t been up to scratch, then, you know, I might have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. So I, you know—luckily I was super fit and I could swim, and I’d been training for that winter a lot. So it’s—surfing is—and you know, it can be small and there can be a nasty little rip or an undertow that can really challenge your fitness levels.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, that is exactly right. That actually happened last week with me. I’m at Whangamatā at the moment, and it was like that. It was like a nice little right-hand rip bowl, and there was a couple of us out, and there’s a guy on a stand-up paddle, and he’s a good surfer—I know him very well—and he’s a little bit older than that. And he lost his stand-up paddle, you know, and it got in. But the rip was so strong, he’s swimming in and he’s got the paddle, you know, and I look around—he was getting nowhere at all, you know. So I paddled into the beach and got his board and brought it back out for him, because he—yeah, the rip was just strong enough that, you know, anyone was struggling, you know. And it wasn’t even three foot, you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, the ocean is a humbling place for sure. Yeah. As a surfer, who inspires you the most? Who do you look up to?
**Iain Buchanan**
I like—well, where we are, there’s definitely a hierarchy, and some of the guys, the elder guys—and it’s pretty cool when a proper set on a swell comes through, they’re the guys who get the waves. I think that’s—so I look up to that sort of thing. As far as performance goes, like—it’s pretty unbelievable what people like John and Medina and several other guys can do. Dane Reynolds is another one we’ve seen live. It’s like—just how the hell did they make that maneuver or that barrel? Or just the sheer difficulty of negotiating that wave and those sections is just—yeah, it’s amazing to see. Medina—he treats any break like a beach break. He just... it doesn’t matter how big or gnarly it is or what the reef or whatever—he’s just attacking it like it’s a three-foot wave or something. It’s quite crazy to see, you know. The level of women’s surfing has been unbelievable too. Some of the young girls coming through now—there’s been a definite surge. That’s pretty good to see too, you know. The level’s really risen high, yeah. I do respect the older guys too. If you think back on the equipment—it wasn’t like how it’s changed so much. I remember the first time I ever went to Hawaii, and it was in the early ’80s, and I was out at Sunset, and it was like this big west swell was happening. And this set’s come through, and I’m like, “Shit.” And it’s like everyone’s scratching for their lives, and I’m like, “What do I do? What do I do?” And I saw this guy—Peter Cole. And he was, like, a lot older—from magazines and that. I just recognized him from the magazines. I never met the guy. And I saw, “That’s Peter Cole.” I said, “If anyone knows where to go, it’s that guy.” So I just followed his ass over these waves, and I know I got out the back because of that. So it’s... you can’t buy experience. The guys who are cool and calm in difficult conditions—and who can read the ocean too—you know, like Curren’s pretty unbelievable like that. He’s got a bit of a zen-like factor. And yeah, there’s a few guys like that, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, that’s really good advice. I learned that a long time ago. If you see an older, experienced surfer sitting out there—everyone’s sitting there—and then all of a sudden you see one of the older guys jump on his board and start paddling out the back, and you’re like, “Why is he doing that?” No one else has seen a set coming in. He saw the set before everyone else. So you’re best to just take his lead and start paddling. And yeah, little things like that—because those older guys that are experienced, they don’t have the fitness level of the younger dudes, so it’s experience and the way they read the ocean—that’s what sets them apart. And that’s something Tom Carroll taught me a long time ago. It was like, your ability to finely read the ocean is what separates the great surfers from just the good ones.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, and of course I shouldn't forget Atlas—Slater, of course. He's like—no, he's... yeah, he's the king of all that stuff. But I'll never forget, I was judging the Volcom event at Pipe a few years ago or so, and it was Jamie O'Brien. And at one point, it's like the last minute counting down, and he was going against John, and he paddled up to John and shook his hand, you know. And it's like 30 seconds counting down, and I think even Jamie had priority too. John John just like turned around—he saw this wave from Gums, which is like off the reef there—and he paddled over, and it's the last 10 seconds counting. He managed to swing and catch it. And Jamie just couldn’t get to it. And he got like a 9.8 on that wave. He read the wave—yeah, he read the ocean. So that knowledge and ability to read stuff, yeah, for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Do you sometimes surprise yourself with your ability and instinct to read the ocean?
**Iain Buchanan**
I watch that a lot, you know, like I'll just see how I am. Like guys down here, you know, for our fingers to groms. And yeah, I... like for example, last Sunday night I was waiting—I could see the tide was going out. I knew Whangapoua could have been okay, you know, but it was like—it got to, it was like 20 past eight, I think. It was only half an hour till dark. And then I noticed there’s like three people outside, so I just went out. And it was three grommets on foamies just having fun. The tide went out enough that the last half hour was pretty bloody good actually. Yeah. And, you know, good three foot and just peeling and just—my God, heaps of waves, you know. So... yeah, just—I know living at Piha, reading the West Coast is very changeable too. And being up on the hill, you can see the banks—different up at North Piha compared to South Piha. And yeah, certain times the tide’s low enough or high enough, it’s going to turn on. And I’ve had many surfs at Piha like that just by watching, you know. Watching a lot. And it turns on all of a sudden and it’s just like—could be a Sunday night at 7:30, you know—everyone’s having dinner and drinking a few beers. It’s like, shit, it’s on. Just go out and be with a couple of mates.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, surfing’s like that. It’s when the stars align and the tide and the bars and the swell and the wind all line up. You’ve got to take those opportunities.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Sure. What’s currently your favorite surfboard?
**Iain Buchanan**
I’ve been riding a 5'7" twinny with a stabiliser that I made myself. I’ve made a couple, and I didn’t used to ride twinnies at all. I was always a single fin man when I was—before the thruster. And when the twinnies came out I kind of liked the slidey feel of them, you know. But I had a go on a friend’s board in Nicaragua because my boards got left in L.A. And I borrowed a board—and even a four fin too—it went pretty good, way better than I thought actually, yeah. And then he let me have a go on a twinny with a stabiliser, and yeah, it changed the way I thought, you know. And I made a couple of single fins too for myself recently, or last couple of years, and been riding those a bit as well. I’ve been probably experimenting more than I ever have in my life in the last three or four years. And looking back at other shapers too. Like I used to work at G&S with Greg Webber, and then he went to Hot Buttered, and I did too. That was quite interesting being at the same place. I’m good friends with Greg, and he’s always been very into pushing the boundaries and stuff. And yeah, I like a lot of the stuff he does. And checking fins too—I’ve been getting into, especially single fins. The fins make a huge difference. I’ve been experimenting a lot with that. And I surf a lot with Daniel Davey—Bob Davey’s son. Yeah. And he’s constantly collecting old boards of Bob’s over the years, and he’s just got boards coming out of the house—his wife’s not happy—but he’s buying something every week, it’s crazy. But he’s got some unbelievable boards. And yeah, so I ride some of those sometimes just for fun, yeah. But my current one is my 5'7" twinny with a stabiliser, and using different fins. I’ve been riding it in bigger surf too. And I’ve got shitloads of boards I’ve been making, so I’ve got a different kind of range of pins too, you know, like step-ups and stuff made from different materials too. A friend of mine works in the California surf industry and he’s given me some different cloth and stuff like that to try. It’s amazing. Yeah. That’s good. I’m not really into—I haven’t been really into—the epoxies, you know. Like a lot of guys ride epoxies, and yeah. It never ceases to amaze me—especially when I go back to Piha in a big, chunky surf—and guys are still trying to ride their six-foot epoxy boards. And it’s like, you know, six foot plus and thick waves, and it’s like big waves—you’re on bigger boards, it’s a no-brainer. And they wonder why they’re struggling, you know. Yeah. Know what you’re riding, for a start—you know, like construction and that sort of stuff, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
So it sounds like experimenting with different boards has been something that’s helped keep you inspired and keeping things fresh.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, I love making boards. I had a period—well, still quite a lot—because I’ve been travelling so much. I don’t shape as much as I would like to, but I still have the passion for shaping, for sure. I love it. And I think Daniel’s father’s place has been rented out. I think they’re moving out this month. He’s still got the old factory up there. So yeah, we’re going to clean that out and be able to make boards up there again. Pretty exciting to look forward to, and my friends, and just making them for my shop, yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah. Are you making boards commercially or just for yourself or a bit of both?
**Iain Buchanan**
Just me. So yeah, I’ve got a bit of interest here, so it’s good, yeah. And working with another guy here—Mark O’Connor—he does Mojo Handshapes here in Whanga, and he makes all his boards from start to finish and good gloss coats and finishing like that, like the old style kind of thing. It’s good quality boards, you know. And he makes all kinds and specializes in mals and that too, so that’s, you know, that old sort of quality of how boards are made too—it’s the craftsmanship. You know, good to work around, you know. I’ve worked with a lot of people overseas and, you know, it’s a big respect. But I have glasses—unbelievable, you know. I don’t really like glassing that much. I don’t sand or anything. But the guys who are really good sanders—they make or break a board too. So it’s, yeah, big respect for those people, you know. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we’ve got guys—I don’t know—guys at Piha, they’ll go and spend $1,000 or $1,200 on an import from overseas. But then they wouldn’t—you know—they wouldn’t put that money towards a local guy, you know? Like there’s a few good guys that make boards in Auckland, and that’s what they’re competing with. All these imports that all the commercial shops are bringing in by the containers, or else they buy them shipped from Australia or whatever, you know. And that sort of thing. There’s still some very good manufacturers in New Zealand, you know. Pete Anderson here. Wayne Parks is still going up at Waipu Cove. It’s like—quality unsurpassed really. His level is incredible. And he’s brought through a whole lot of young shapers. Well, you know. Well, best quality.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, this board just behind me here—that’s a Jordan Griffin fish. Yeah, great board. You know, I was in the States riding a Christensen fish, and this Jordan Griffin fish surfs just as well. And it’s probably better made actually. It’s probably—the quality of the glassing on that board’s going to last forever. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, it’s a shame. It’s a shame people fall victim to marketing, I think.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
No, you can’t beat the type of board that you get from a local shaper that’s been glassed locally. It’s going to probably cost you a little bit less, and it’s probably going to last you a lot longer too than something that’s been popped out and shipped over here. Yeah. I’ll ask you one more question before we leave you.
**Iain Buchanan**
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Support your local shaper. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
What’s the best surfing advice you’ve ever got, and what’s the worst surfing advice you’ve ever got?
**Iain Buchanan**
You’ve just got to surf to your ability. Like, I mean, if it’s not—like when you go somewhere like Hawaii or whatever—it’s like, you shouldn’t be forced to go out in what you’re not comfortable with, you know. Because it’s a time thing—like getting used to it and progressing and being comfortable with that. So don’t step too far out of your comfort zone. I think that’s fair enough. The worst advice was—I have been dragged out in stuff that’s like, “Whoa, this is pretty major,” and been severely hammered and stuff like that. Or like, I’ve been out in conditions before when it’s like—it was very marginal and it did get quite dangerous, you know. So yeah, it’s like being talked into stuff when you think, “Nah, it’s not worth the risk,” you know? Yeah. Next thing is, “Shit, we’re in trouble,” you know?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. You’ve got to trust your instincts. I think, yeah, you’re right. It’s because if you let someone convince you to go out when it is a bit above your pay grade and you have a bad experience, that can be... that can hold you back for quite some time. It can put you off surfing. It can—you know, you’re risking your life in them.
**Iain Buchanan**
I had a bad experience with a guy, and it got worse and bigger and more. I go, “Shit, it’s pretty onshore, it’s pretty solid, and it’s not that great.” We checked it about two hours before, and it got worse. And we were struggling to get out, and he just got out. And it was like—the end of the beach was up here, and it went around these rocks to the next beach. And I’m like—I was just by the rocks—I was going, “Nah,” and just came in, you know, like I was going to get sucked around the rocks. And I got on the beach and I had to walk up the sand hill to see where he was and put my board up again. And he’s gone. And when he finally got in, he’s like, “I wish I didn’t go out.” I was going, “Yeah.” Yeah. Another one is—don’t surf by yourself. Because anything can happen. And the same guy, actually—he did this a week ago—and he got hit in the head with his board and got 10 stitches. And he had to swim in because he lost his board. Yeah. So, you know, and that was late too—it was like 8:30 at night. So it was—yeah, things can happen. No matter how good you are. You know, surfing by yourself—you know, out of your control. So not a good idea, I reckon, at any size. Yeah.
**Michael Frampton**
No, I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty hard to surf by yourself nowadays with the crowds. It is possible, though, but yeah—it’s not worth the risk. I’m sure you’re right. Well, Iain, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
**Iain Buchanan**
Okay, thanks, Mike. It was good to talk to.
**Michael Frampton**
Alright, thanks mate. See ya.

94 Iain "Ratso" Buchanan - The Eternal Grom
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

**93 Kassia Meador** Nov 29, 2023

Kassia Meador pic: @ez.rivero

Are you stuck in your surf journey—pushing harder, yet not progressing? What if the secret lies in slowing down?
In this episode, pro surfer Kassia Meador reveals how surfers at all levels can accelerate their growth by integrating surf etiquette, body awareness, and holistic healing practices like sound therapy and craniosacral work—insights especially vital for anyone recovering from injury or burnout.
Discover how to progress faster through surf retreats in Morocco and Indonesia designed for deep connection and rapid improvement
Learn why sound medicine and neurofeedback are becoming essential tools for surf recovery and performance
Gain rare pro-level tips on lineup etiquette that can instantly transform your sessions and confidence
Hit play now to learn how to elevate your surf practice, heal deeply, and reconnect with the ocean—mindfully and powerfully.
***https://kassiasurf.com/***
***(use discount 'surfmasterylove' at checkout for 25% off)***
***Retreats:*** ***https://www.saltysensations.com/*** & ***https://kassiasurf.com/pages/retreats***
***Course: (use discount code 'Welcome10' for 10% off)*** ***Definitive Guide to Longboarding 3.0***
***Kassia's Instagram:*** ***https://www.instagram.com/kassiasurf/?hl=en***
***Surf Mastery website:*** ***https://surfmastery.com/***
**Key Points**
Kassia Myador emphasizes the importance of high-level surf coaching and creating a supportive environment for learning in her retreats.
Kassia discusses the value of learning surf etiquette and developing a rapport with the ocean to improve lineup awareness and safety.
Kassia highlights the common mistake of new surfers getting too comfortable and not pushing beyond their comfort zones to continue improving.
Kassia describes her journey with head trauma, including multiple concussions, and the alternative therapies she pursued for recovery, such as neurofeedback and craniosacral therapy.
Kassia discusses the use of sound and vibrational medicine, including sound baths and gongs, for healing and supporting the nervous system.
Kassia talks about her plans to take a group to Indonesia for surfing retreats, highlighting the variety of waves and the fun, perfect conditions during the shoulder season.
Kassia advises beginner surfers to have fun, not be too hard on themselves, and use the ocean as a mirror to reflect on their life and personal growth.
**Outline**
**Surfing Retreats and Salty Sensations**
Kassia has been running retreats for about seven years, both internationally and locally in Southern California.
Kassia started Salty Sensations with Leah Dawson and Michaela Smith during the pandemic as a way for people to connect safely through surfing and camping.
Salty Sensations began as local, long weekend retreats and expanded internationally two years ago.
Kassia collaborates with local communities and hosts retreats in various locations, including Ireland and Morocco.
The retreats offer high-level surf coaching in a supportive environment, focusing on community and learning.
Participants often return to multiple retreats, showing progress in their surfing and community connections.
**Surfing Ethics and Etiquette**
Kassia emphasizes the importance of learning surfing ethics and etiquette from experienced surfers.
The retreats aim to improve lineup etiquette and awareness, contributing to better surfing communities.
Kassia compares learning to surf to getting a driver's license, highlighting the dangers of inexperienced surfers.
Kassia notes the frustration new surfers face when they don't progress as quickly as they expect.
**Kassia's Surfing Journey**
Kassia started surfing in 1990, learning the ocean through junior lifeguards before surfing with her dad and his friends.
Kassia's first surfing experience was at Leo Carrillo, with her first green wave caught at La Conchita.
Kassia spent an entire summer camping and surfing at Leo Carrillo, learning the ocean extensively.
Joel Tudor advised Kassia not to only surf perfect waves, encouraging her to adapt to different conditions.
Kassia moved to Oceanside at 20 to surf more beach breaks, which she believes improved her overall surfing.
Kassia prefers surfing lefts on a shortboard and rights on a longboard, particularly for nose riding.
**Common Mistakes in Surfing**
Kassia identifies getting too comfortable and not pushing oneself as a common mistake among new surfers.
Plateauing in surfing can lead to boredom and frustration, affecting one's attitude in the water.
Kassia advises against complacency, encouraging surfers to seek new challenges and experiences.
Kassia believes that the ocean reflects personal issues, such as control, and can be a tool for personal growth.
**Kassia's Relationship with Surfing**
Kassia describes a renewed excitement and love for surfing, comparing it to her early days.
Kassia took a seven-year break from surfing due to injuries and concussions, during which she focused on her business and healing.
Kassia credits polarity therapy and craniosacral therapy for helping her recover from concussions.
Kassia has experienced a full recovery and feels better than ever, attributing it to various therapies and lifestyle changes.
Kassia emphasizes the importance of health and well-being, advocating for alternative therapies and low-inflammatory diets.
**Sound Therapy and Vibrational Medicine**
Kassia is passionate about sound and vibrational medicine, using tools like sound bowls, gongs, and tuning forks.
Kassia incorporates sound therapy into her retreats to support participants' nervous systems and overall well-being.
Kassia and Michael discuss the neurological benefits of sound therapy, comparing it to other body work therapies.
Kassia highlights the importance of finding what works for individual bodies and systems, whether it's chiropractic, acupuncture, or sound therapy.
Kassia mentions her favorite surfboards, a nine-foot five-inch longboard shaped by Dane and a six-foot eight-inch twin pin by Alex Lopez.
**Favorite Surfing Locations and Experiences**
Kassia's dream surfing location is Indonesia, particularly the Mentawai Islands, for their variety of waves.
Kassia plans to take groups to Indonesia during the shoulder season for fun, perfect waves.
Kassia uses sound bowls and other instruments in her retreats to support participants' experiences and healing.
**Advice for Beginner Surfers**
Kassia advises beginner surfers to have fun and not be too hard on themselves, emphasizing the importance of enjoying the process.
Kassia suggests that the ocean reflects personal issues and can be a mirror for growth and learning.
Kassia encourages surfers to use moments of tension and frustration as opportunities for learning and progress.
**Transcription**
**Michael Frampton**
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today's guest is Kassia Meador. Kassia embodies the ethos of this show, which is education and inspiration to improve the lives of surfers both in and out of the water. And that is exactly what Kassia is doing. Kassia spent some years on the World Surf League Longboard Tour and was ranked second in the world in 2011. She has her own brand. She has surfing courses online. She's running retreats. We discuss all of that in today's episode, and of course, links below to all of that stuff in the show notes. Stay tuned till the end for some discount codes as well.
**Kassia Meador**
Local honey gives you like allergen protection, so doing that and then just surfing as much as possible.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, did you surf today?
**Kassia Meador**
No, I haven't surfed the last two days. I've been stuck a little bit, stuck to my computer just catching up on things because I was gone for so long. Yeah, but I surfed Monday. Tuesday was really good.
**Michael Frampton**
Okay, where have you been? Traveling?
**Kassia Meador**
I've been, yeah. I was in France, and then from France, I went to Ireland, and then from Ireland, Morocco. So I was gone for two months, and then I came home and did a little retreat down south. And then I have another one in two weeks. So I've pretty much been gone and really only have this week and next week home to get caught up before I'm gone again. So it's been full on.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Did you have a retreat in Ireland as well? Is that why you were there?
**Kassia Meador**
I did, yeah. I did a retreat there with our Salty Sensations crew that I started with my friend Leah Dawson and Mikayla Smith. And then we team up with this awesome local Irish woman. She has a whole thing called Rebel Surf. So they're doing a lot for the Irish community and getting women in the water. Eastgate Britton came and read an excerpt from her book. And our friend Candice O'Donnell—long time, I think she was like British champ for a while, but she's a longboarder, friends with Leah and I, we've known her for a long time. I used to ride for Roxy with her as well. And so she came and helped us out. And we had a group of about—gosh, it was a co-ed retreat, and we had, I think like 10 guests, and it was fantastic.
**Michael Frampton**
When did that start and what was the impetus to start hosting these retreats?
**Kassia Meador**
You know, we started doing retreats—gosh, I want to say I've been doing retreats now for about seven years or more internationally. And then Leah and I started Salty Sensations actually during the middle of the pandemic. When nobody was really traveling, a lot of people were doing stuff just at home, you know, and wanting to connect. And kind of like camping was really one of the only ways that we could get together, and people could get together safely. So we started taking people surfing and camping here in Southern California. It was like an easy kind of long weekend during the middle of the week. So Mikayla Smith started coming down there with us, and then Andy Nieblas and, you know, some other awesome surfers. And we started these surfing and camping retreats that were like three days, kind of short little windows. And then last year—or two years ago now—we started taking them internationally. So that's cool. And we've been going to like kind of places more so off the beaten path with Salty Sensations. And then again, I do retreats and host retreats globally with other people. So, Morocco was more of like a Kassia surf retreat that I did with another friend who's a yogi, and Mikayla came with me to co-host that one. And then Morocco, like we worked with this awesome place and a friend of mine called Hamid. He has the O Surf Retreat, like Surf Club or whatever—Surf Club, I think is exactly what it's called. And he's awesome. He was my first guide in Morocco when I went there 15 years ago. But then Ireland was like Salty Sensation. So there's like a lot of different things happening. And then when we came back, the one that we have in two weeks is a Salty Sensations one. So there's kind of like multiple different things happening. Yeah, definitely.
**Michael Frampton**
All the time. So you're seeing quite a demand for these types of retreats?
**Kassia Meador**
I mean, I think what we offer is really unique in that a lot of people don't—you know, have gotten more so into surfing over the last five to 10 years, especially a lot of women coming into surfing. Maybe they surfed as a kid and they're getting back into it now. Or maybe they just found different time to get into surfing and they want to learn, they want to get better. And this is a way for people to learn in community, learn in different ways, and have a good time doing it. So it's awesome. It's awesome to witness people and their journeys. You know, now we've seen some people for a couple years in a row. People come back to multiple retreats. And so we're able to really witness their progress and then their progress with community and meeting up. And a lot of these people connect all over the world. And so then they become surf buddies, and they're able to bring it back to their community. And it's helping to grow. And I love it. And it's like—when do people have real access to learn from professional surfers? You know, a lot of people doing retreats and stuff out there are just kind of novice surfers themselves. And nothing bad about that. It's just what we're offering is really kind of high-level surf coaching in a really supportive environment. So it's a lot of fun.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, my previous guest said a piece of his advice was, “Don't watch people,” simply because most people don't surf that well. They don't approach the lineup very well. So his advice was don't watch them. Just choose one good person and watch that person. So, you see, you're kind of almost doing that on steroids a little bit. And do you think it's almost a step forward, creating a little community vibe like that where you're camping and surfing? It's kind of like a step back in time in some sort of way. It's like, this is how surfing used to be. We're going to kind of ignore the crowd, and we're going to keep sort of—but this is—because I can't imagine that these sort of camps would have worked 20 years ago. Because that was what surfing was anyway.
**Kassia Meador**
That's exactly it. And I love that you bring it up because I think like we're kind of like—we're around the same age, like I'm 41, you know, so I've been surfing for like almost 30 years. And when we grew up surfing, it was a lot smaller groups of people were surfing. Everybody kind of knew each other, and we would be camping and surfing and just hanging out together, surfing together, vibing out. Yeah. And I think just with how much time we've all spent in the water—between Mikayla, myself, Leah, and Andy, for instance—you know, between the Salty Sensations crew, there's like over 100 years of combined experience that we've had in the water, really, if you think about it that way. But this is our lives. This is what we do. And so we're able to create a really genuine and authentic atmosphere for people to learn in the ways that we learned. And I think that that's what's unique about our offering and what we're bringing out there, you know. And it's so fun. And the people that come are just so stoked. And again, it's just so awesome to be able to share, because that's a lot of the thing that has fueled us to want to offer these camps and retreats and what got me to offer my online course with *The Inertia*. But there's a lot of people that go do a surf camp or do a surf retreat in a way that they're not learning from people who have been surfing a long time like all of us. And they think, you know, they don't really understand the etiquette. And maybe they're putting themselves or somebody else in harm's way because they don't really understand the cadence of a lineup. They don't really have that etiquette background. Nobody's told them. It was just like, “Every wave’s your wave.” When really, as you and I know, surfing isn't about riding waves as much as it is about having a rapport with the ocean and connecting with community and all the other elements that go into what surfing is. And so I think that that's really what we're trying to share and teach. And hopefully by doing it this way, we're going to make the lineups a lot better for everybody because they're learning good ethics, they're learning good awareness, they're learning good lineup etiquette in the water, and they're able to bring that back to their communities as well.
**Michael Frampton**
You know, that's a good point. There's so many people jumping into surfing nowadays, and it's so accessible. You know, the wetsuits and surfboards are so good. And there are so many companies making them at such an affordable price. It's so accessible to everyone now. And it's—gosh, a surfboard, I mean, as you know, a surfboard is a very dangerous thing. And you wouldn't just go and give someone a car without putting them through a course and making sure they had their license. Yeah, and I think it breeds a lot of new surfers' frustration too.
**Kassia Meador**
Love that. Yeah, I love that kind of analogy. And it's so very true. So very true.
**Michael Frampton**
Their perception of surfing is like, “I just buy a soft top and a cheap wetsuit and I go surfing,” and... well, it’s not quite that simple. And then they wonder why, you know, three months later they still can't ride unbroken waves and why people are yelling at them. So... you know, things like this, I’m glad that they're growing and people are doing it because it will—you’re right—it will. Every time a bunch of people in a community take your course, then they bring that vibe to the whole lineup where they surf. And hopefully when their friend decides to, “Hey, can you show me how to surf?” they pass that on.
So that's awesome.
**Kassia Meador**
That's cool. And it's fun too. You know, it's like getting to share what we know after all this time. I'm like, gosh, I wish somebody told me half the stuff that we're sharing with other people. It would have just like, you know, expedited my learning curve in an exceptional way. And so it's really cool to be able to share that with—I mean, I guess I started surfing in 1997 or 1998.
**Michael Frampton**
What was your learning curve like? When did you start surfing?
**Kassia Meador**
I did junior lifeguards. I learned the ocean. My parents were like, “Okay, learn the ocean.” And my dad was a surfer. So he's like, “I'm not going to teach you. I want you to learn about the ocean, learn about the currents, learn the language, and then you can come surfing with me.” So yeah, that was the way.
And then I just went surfing with my dad and his friends and I was just out in the water. And then I started going to Malibu and surfing with all those people and actually watching.
That said, I did have good access. I learned a lot from watching, though I had great people to watch. I had guys like Joel Tudor and Josh Farberow and people like Brittany Leonard and Matt Howard and, you know, Dane Peterson and some of the best surfers—Ashley Lloyd—that I got to watch and witness. And really helped to inform my surfing. But I was watching some of the best loggers around doing what they do.
So it was Jimmy Gamboa, you know, that whole crew. That whole generation of surfers. So for me, watching was a big part of it. And then adapting what I was witnessing to my own kind of style. And obviously not wanting to look like a kook, because I just got made fun of if I did. And that was just how it was when we were kids and everybody was just heckling each other. It was a simpler...
**Michael Frampton**
Time. So what beach did it start? When was your first surfing experience? What beach?
**Kassia Meador**
I mean, Leo Carrillo—the back beach, North Beach. Leo Carrillo is where I first was doing junior lifeguards. I think I caught my first green wave at a place called La Conchita, which is really not a surfing spot at all actually. It’s just like a beach break on the inside of Rincon. But I grew up in the valley. I was a valley kid, so I never lived by the beach.
So I was never, I guess, like local to anywhere. I just kind of like—we just had to drive everywhere. But one of the closest beaches to me—I lived on the other side of the canyon—was like Leo Carrillo, Malibu. And then the other way was like C Street, Ventura, Rincon, that kind of vibe, you know.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I see you’ve done quite a bit of camping at Leo Carrillo as well.
**Kassia Meador**
I camped at Leo Carrillo an entire summer, the first summer I learned how to surf. So we did junior lifeguards all day. Julie Cox, who owns a couple cool surf stores now called Traveler Surf Club and Outpost, she was my junior lifeguard instructor and she worked at the camp store.
So she had like a whole campsite the entire summer. And so she was older than me. So she had a car, which meant I had a ride to the beach. And, you know, her, myself, and a bunch of our friends—we just spent an entire summer literally camping and surfing and running and swimming and like learning the ocean.
**Michael Frampton**
Wow. So it’s kind of come full circle.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. It’s absolutely come full circle. And I think that’s the thing, is like connecting with nature.
You know, that’s the thing about surfing—like not having any walls around us, like being outside all the time. And that’s something that’s really special, I think, about California and really what we like to bring to people with Salty Sensations specifically, is having that access to be fully immersed in nature for an extended amount of time.
**Michael Frampton**
Well, do you remember earlier on in your surfing journey—what was the best surfing advice you had?
**Kassia Meador**
Gosh, I mean, when I was younger, Joel Tudor probably gave me some really good advice, which was like interesting advice. And he probably wouldn’t remember it, but he was just like, “You know, don’t get Point Break Syndrome.”
Like, you surf Malibu all the time—don’t just only surf a perfect wave. Because it’s not going to teach you that much about surfing, really, because you’re just surfing—it's like you kind of set up a nose ride, set up a nose ride. You’re not turning, you’re not being more dynamic, you’re not witnessing a lot of variables coming in.
And, you know, like surfing beach breaks and stuff like that—you’re seeing all these different variables and you have to adapt and you have to choose the right one.
And at a place like Malibu—that’s literally like nature’s machine of perfection—and Leo Carrillo and a lot of the waves I was surfing, Rincon—they’re so perfect that you become lazy.
And so I remember when he first said that to me, I was like, “What? Point Break Syndrome? I’m like, what are you talking about? This is a perfect wave.”
And then I would spend some time going and trying to surf Sano and trying to surf other places. And even my first time to Costa Rica I realized—even though I’m goofy foot—I never really went left.
And that was awkward to me. And you’d think on my forehand I would be more vibing, but really, just because I never really did it surfing in, you know, where I grew up. It was just weird.
So I think that helped me the most.
And I started riding for Donald Takayama, and when I was 20 years old I moved down to Oceanside and started surfing a lot of beach breaks. And I think that really helped my surfing in general. And then just traveling and surfing as many waves as possible.
And that’s something that we bring into our retreats.
You know, it’s like—it’s pretty easy to surf a perfect wave.
Yeah, it is.
Easy to surf a difficult wave that’s variable? Not as much, you know.
I think it depends.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, do you still prefer your backhand?
**Kassia Meador**
Like, truly? I mean, I love perfect waves. I mean, who isn’t a sucker for a perfect wave?
You know, absolutely.
But because I have proximity to so many rights, you know, more so in my backyard or where I live, I really love going left just because it still feels different to me. It still feels a little more far-reached and far.
And I think on like a shortboard and a small board, I prefer going left.
And on a longboard, I—you know, if it’s a perfect longboard wave, like I love going right.
I think I surf better on a longboard, especially nose riding going right.
And I have some work to do, definitely, going left.
**Michael Frampton**
Interesting. So, what’s the worst surfing advice you ever had?
**Kassia Meador**
Ash, I don’t know. You know, it’s like—I think like surfing and the ocean specifically just teaches you stuff.
You know, I guess one of the worst surfing advices I had was like an old boyfriend of mine that told me I should go to college and not just follow my dream of surfing.
That was probably the worst surfing advice ever. I remember being like, “College? Like what?”
And he’s like, “It’s a pipe dream,” you know, blah.
I’m like, “I don’t even know what my dream is, but I know my nightmare would be to go to college.”
Like, you know, just the bill alone—especially in the U.S.—it’s different, I think, maybe over in New Zealand and other places. But like, I don’t want to go to college.
You know? And I went to Australia, and I bought a car, and I kind of lived in it for a while after graduating high school and just cruised up and down the coast. And really, my surfing journey took off.
Thankfully, I did not listen to him.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I think... thank you.
Yeah. What’s the biggest mistake that you see that newbies to surfing make?
**Kassia Meador**
You know, I think some of the biggest mistakes that I’ve seen—just in life—some of our retreat guests, I think more so, is getting too comfortable with what they know and not wanting to push themselves.
It’s like people in general getting too comfortable.
Like maybe that’s a thing for humanity.
You know, one of the worst mistakes we can do is get comfortable.
Like, how awesome it is when we meet our growing edges and see ourselves moving through it, you know?
So I think as beginning surfers, you know, they get kind of comfortable maybe in one place, surfing one wave or—you know, and there’s something helpful with that because it helps you get to a comfort level that makes it enjoyable.
That said, if you’re not surpassing that comfort level, you’re never going to—you plateau.
And then often people come to us and they’ve plateaued, but they’re comfortable where they are. And then they’re like, “This is uncomfortable because it’s new and different.” And like, “Maybe I like perfect waves,” or “I like this.”
And that’s always something for us.
Because it’s like, people will be like, “I feel like I’m going backwards.”
And it’s like, no—you’re just learning new things.
Like, it’s supposed to be uncomfortable.
And then we always get a message—like, they go home and they ride their comfortable wave on whatever. And they’re like—that’s when they really see the progress that they’ve made. You know, when they might come back a year later and really go.
So maybe a human condition thing—to like, you know, if we’re ever too comfortable, like, what are we missing?
Where’s the growing potential that we’re missing?
You know, so yeah, I think that’s something.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, I guess if you get to it as a surfer—if you get to a certain level where you are comfortable and you don't push yourself beyond that—I'm wondering what the downsides are to that. What did you do?
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, plateauing really. Just not getting any better, which is cool. You can go have fun, but then like, does it get boring after a...
**Michael Frampton**
Point? Well, that’s what I think it would be. It was sort of—and you may not be aware of it—but I think that’s when some cynicism comes. And frustration might sort of leak into your surfing.
**Kassia Meador**
One hundred percent.
You know, if you’re only going and surfing the same wave all the time—it would, absolutely.
I mean, when I chose to move down to Oceanside in my early 20s, people were like, “Why are you moving down south? Like, you live by a perfect wave.”
And I'm like, gosh, if I just stayed in Malibu and never left—I mean, I never lived in Malibu. I always grew up in the Valley. So I never actually lived in Malibu.
But if that was like the wave that I was only surfing and all those rights, like I might’ve gotten bored and complacent.
Like, complacency just seems like a trap.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, no, I think that. I think you see that a lot.
You see someone riding the same board, surfing the same wave, waiting for the set waves, and they're just a bit grumpy with it all.
And they're the people that are most likely to snap and complain about how surfing used to be.
But you see people out there who are always trying different—it might even just be—just try a different surfboard.
You know, you don’t have to go and try and attempt any sort of new moves or anything.
It’s just sort of, I think you need challenges in some ways. Like, surfing somewhere else or surfing a different type of board doesn’t have to be associated to your performance per se.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. I can totally see that happening for people. And that’s such a bummer, right?
Like, it’s kind of like—gosh, I mean, the world is so beautiful and life is so beautiful that if people are just bummed out in the water, I really feel like—without getting too kind of far out and esoteric—but like, I really feel that water is such a conductor. It’s a conduit.
And so whatever’s happening—and you know, when those grumpy people are out there—and it’s a bummer because they’re grumpy and they’re kind of like stinking up the lineup with their grumpy vibes, you know?
And then when somebody is like having a good one and everybody’s like hooting for each other, it’s like the best lineup to be in. Everybody surfing the best, feeling the best. And that’s contagious.
So like, what are we bringing to our lineups? And how is that affecting everybody else out there? Because it really does.
And I’m not saying it’s about being happy all the time, because a lot of people have a lot of struggles—especially right now with everything going on in the world.
That being said, if the ocean is that place that you go to do your cleansing work and you go to do the things that bring you joy so that you can kind of let go of some of the stresses of life, then if you’re met with joy and happiness and fun, you’re going to be able to bring that back to life on land—which is, you know, it’s like crossing T’s and dotting I’s and all the other things that we have to deal with, like paying taxes and all that stuff that’s not always that fun.
So it’s like—it really should be that place, you know? And I really hope that it is for people.
And anybody listening to this, I hope that—you know, it’s like—you can think about that.
Like, what are you bringing into the water?
If you’re grumpy out in the water, how are you on land? And how is that affecting other people?
And who knows what kind of day somebody’s been having?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, but that’s—I think, I mean, maybe that is the challenge for those sorts of people: to leave that stuff in the car park and immerse yourself in surfing and remember what surfing is.
And that might be someone’s challenge.
And that might be how they progress their surfing—is just to have a better relationship with surfing. Simple as that.
**Kassia Meador**
I love that. I love that as a challenge.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. How would you describe your current relationship to surfing?
**Kassia Meador**
I love surfing so much. I mean, I'm more excited about surfing than I think I ever have been, except for when I was first getting it. I'm just excited right now about surfing, and I froth out just as much as I was when I was a little kid. And it’s kind of come full circle in that way. I think everything has different cycles of evolution. And I'm definitely on an upturn, like a remembering cycle again, right now.
You know, having the access to surfing all over the world since I was younger was amazing. And then surfing professionally—at some point there was a point where I got a little disenchanted with the surf industry and the whole surf world, and just all this other stuff that didn't feel like it was aligned with the purity of why I got into it in the first place.
So I think for the most part, leaving my big sponsors, leaving the surfing world, starting my own business—kind of dealing with all that with my wetsuits and everything—was a lot of hard work. And then I had a bunch of injuries. So I spent probably a good seven years not in the water much.
Like, multiple concussions from surfing accidents—people, you know, dropping in and kicking their boards at me or my own board—or a couple car accidents, dislocated shoulders, injuries in different ways that literally really kept me out of the water, I would say for the most part of seven years.
And it was really in 2019 into 2020 that I started feeling better again. I did a lot of work. I went back to school, and I learned craniosacral and polarity therapy because it helped me the most with my concussions. I was really focused on my business. I wasn't surfing a lot. And I was like, wow, my joy is missing.
And then I started feeling good enough—towards the end of 2019 and early into 2020—and I really started surfing a lot more. And that's when I really started teaching more surfing. And I did the online course. And then I was starting to feel myself again, and then teaching helped me fall in love again with different aspects of surfing.
And then I kind of had this break from surfing that really helped me to feel grateful for my body, grateful for feeling strong again, grateful for all these things.
So then it reignited this new love with surfing in a different way. And that's where I am currently. And I'm just so frothy. I'm so pumped.
My friend Leah and her boyfriend Alex call me “Queen Froth” because I'm so stoked to get in the water. I'm waking up at five in the morning, driving down to Huntington Beach to go surf because it's going to be good and offshore. And I'll get two hours in. I'll be back at work by like 9:10 in the morning, and I'm pumped.
So it's really cool to be, you know, 41 and having surfed since I was 14, 15 years old, and I'm falling in love with it again. And I'm in this new phase of it that I'm just so pumped.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. What did you say? Pol... olatherapy?
**Kassia Meador**
Polarity. It's like an energy medicine. It kind of works with Reiki or craniosacral osteopathy. Depending on where you live, you may have a different kind of relation to it.
So it's kind of like that work. And it really helped me with a lot of my head trauma that I experienced through surfing.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and I've had concussions before—a horrible experience, yeah.
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, and they add up. So I had so many consecutively in a row for so many years, and violent car accidents, and just crazy stuff that happened.
But it brought me to different ways of taking care of myself. So that opened up a whole new world. And, gosh, I didn't really know where it was going to go. I was like, maybe my best times of surfing are in the past. And I'm actually just having my best times of surfing I've ever had now, which is so cool.
**Michael Frampton**
So do you think you've made a full recovery since your most recent concussion?
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, for sure. Full recovery—and better than I ever was. I did neurofeedback. I've done a lot of other stuff for my brain—hyperbaric chamber work.
But it took me a long road to find all that stuff, because it’s not just like... If you go to a neurologist, they’re like, “Have some pills and go to speech therapy. You have a stutter.”
I mean, I had a stutter. I couldn’t be outside. Still, at night, driving can affect me a little bit. That’s not super easy all the time. But only if I’m really tired.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, no—the mainstream medical system, they don’t understand concussion that well. You kind of got to—like you said—you got to step out.
I did neurofeedback and changed my diet, and I did some vestibular and ocular rehab—vision and balance rehab. And that’s what sort of helped me with my concussions.
Yeah. So—and chiropractic and stuff too.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. And that’s so cool that you searched that out and then you feel those results, right?
Like, neurofeedback is amazing. And just the best. All of that is so fantastic—having access to it. But you do really have to find it. And it definitely costs time, energy, and money.
**Michael Frampton**
It does. But if you want to get back in the water, then—well, you know, concussion affects every part of your life.
So you kind of—totally—do or die sometimes.
**Kassia Meador**
That's it. And it’s really—it's like, what are we investing in?
Our health and well-being is the most that we can and have the opportunity and really should be investing in.
So that’s awesome that you’re feeling better. So you’re back 100% yourself then?
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, my concussion wasn’t too bad. I was sort of out for a week and was nauseous for a while and, you know, sensitivity to bright light and stuff, and low mood.
And, you know, I’ve of course read a lot—really bad in the surfing world. You know, the big wave surfers—they deal with heavy concussions.
Yeah. And I know... That’s gnarly.
Yeah. But yeah, no, it’s all good now. I still have to keep up. I feel I have to keep up with some of the vision vestibular training though.
Like if I don’t do it, I tend to feel my balance and vision sort of fades. So it’s something I’m always sort of doing—making sure my eyes are working together well and getting enough sleep as well is huge. Just having a good...
Yeah, we’re not in our 20s anymore, so things... That’s it. Mishaps affect you so much more. And a late night wipes you out for a few days nowadays, whereas you could just charge through it when you’re...
**Kassia Meador**
Well, totally. Yeah. Sleep is huge and paramount. And low inflammatory diets too—like that’s helped me a lot. I don’t know, because you said you changed your diet as well.
That was one of the biggest things where I noticed the first effect—just changing that.
And, you know, I hope whoever’s listening to this can pass it on if they know somebody who’s struggling.
Because it’s a hard thing. If somebody breaks their arm, you can see it. You’re like, “That person has a broken arm.”
But with head trauma, you don’t really know what’s happening in there for somebody else.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, it’s like—I think just the whole world itself. And 20 years ago, when we were in our 20s, the world was sort of less toxic in a way.
So even though... 40 years ago, when we were little and growing up, the world was far less toxic.
So we could have sort of developed and adapted to that sort of environment.
And now we find ourselves a bit older, and we’re in a far more toxic environment—just the quality of the air alone.
Whereas if you were born only 15–20 years ago, you kind of grew up in a more toxic environment, and that’s all you know, and your body adapted to that as well.
I think it’s tenfold for us older folk. We’ve got to double down on that stuff a lot.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. And too, having to do our own research. But it seems that more and more people have more access to things. And there’s more ways to find out about what’s happening out there and what tools are available for all of us to work with.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Yeah, if anyone out there is suffering with concussion or knows anyone, look into those alternative therapies—especially vestibular and ocular.
So vision and balance rehab—those are big, because those are the first things to go, and they affect your mood a lot as well.
That sort of stuff, and then sleep and low inflammatory diets.
And like you said, you can just go online and learn so much about it nowadays.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. It’s cool that you did neurofeedback too. I felt like that, with hyperbaric chamber stuff, helped me like crazy.
It was so amazing witnessing the change in how I was sleeping as well.
Because that’s the thing—if you don’t have deep Delta brainwave states, which usually you don’t when you’re in fight-or-flight and stress patterns...
So just being able to get back into deep Delta states alone gave my brain time to recover.
So I’m sure you had similar things happen. It’s wild because one thing affects another, and then the whole system is kind of just barely hanging on.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. And I know in my research before this, I noticed you’re into sound baths.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. Yeah. I love sound and vibrational medicine.
I think that was probably the first tool that I was having access to that was helping me in a lot of ways that I didn’t even really understand.
But it would put me into Theta, which is a relaxed and healing state.
So I didn’t really know what was happening with it.
That said, obviously, knowing a lot more about it now and working with it for a time, there was obviously a reason I was drawn to it—because I was feeling supported receiving and giving Sangha.
So I love that work. I think it’s so fantastic.
Have you received one?
**Michael Frampton**
Yes.
Yeah. Gosh, I remember I was living in New York and I went to somewhere in Queens. We had this old abandoned warehouse. There were 50 of us, did this ayahuasca ceremony. And sort of about three in the morning, when everyone starts to come out of that plant medicine journey, someone starts playing this giant crystal bowl. And it just felt like the whole room was wavering and warping with this crystal bowl. And I just felt these waves go through me.
And that was my first experience of a sound bath. And actually, someone in Malibu—whose name I can't remember—he had a whole room full of crystal bowls, and that was an incredible experience.
And I remember when COVID hit—it was actually not long after, I was probably still healing from my concussion—I bought a really big PA system. And I had to sit in front of a really loud speaker with my bass guitar and just find the frequency that felt right.
It wasn't necessarily the sound of the music; it was the feeling. Because when you have a big sound system or a big bass amp or guitar amp, you really get to feel the music.
And then you search around on the guitar or the bass. And sometimes, I think unconsciously we're searching for the right frequency.
Of course, we might articulate it as, “I really like that note” or “that melody,” but really I think it's often that feeling that the body craves—of the right frequency going through us.
And I think that's part of the reason why people brave live events. Like, there's something that—you can sit down with a pair of headphones and enjoy a certain type of music—but when you go to a live concert and stand up front, you can feel the music.
And that's just a completely different experience. And you can stay up till two in the morning and have four hours of sleep and wake up feeling fine because you've just been bathed in the right frequencies for two hours before that.
So, you know, I'm a big—I'm a huge believer in sound therapy and all that sort of stuff. And gosh, isn't this what a wave is anyway?
Isn't it some sort of communication from a storm miles away?
**Kassia Meador**
That's it. You know, we're all riding different sound waves, right?
And I think that's why, as surfers too, so many surfers I know are so drawn to music in different ways—whether it's playing guitar or drums or ambient kind of music.
Whatever it is, that vibration just feels so much like home. So much like surfing—really surfing sound waves, surfing ocean waves. It's all the same kind of wave energy.
**Michael Frampton**
Really? Yeah. Cool.
And there's a guy on Instagram I follow—Robert Edward Grant. I don’t know if you’ve come across him yet, but he spent a lot of time in ancient Egypt.
And they say that the pyramids and a lot of the other structures are giant sound healing devices. I love it.
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, I love it. Robert—what’s his name? I’m going to check him out.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, Robert Edward Grant. Interesting fellow.
Yeah, because the Nile actually used to run through that part of ancient Egypt.
So a lot of the structures actually used to have water running down the sides, and that would vibrate and create a sound bath.
And he had the opportunity to go into the main pyramid—which I forget its name now—into the King’s Chamber of the main pyramid and lie on top of the table.
And he just started chanting. And he said once he got the right frequency, he felt the whole room of the King’s Chamber vibrating together and making his whole body vibrate.
And he had an out-of-body experience. And so it’s all about sound and frequency.
**Kassia Meador**
It really is.
I literally was having this exact conversation with a good friend of mine last night—who’s a musician—who just got back from Egypt and had the exact same experience.
Toning into the rocks, toning into the statues, toning into it all, and receiving these beautiful downloads of information and actually witnessing everything kind of morphing and changing in the space based on the feedback of sound.
**Michael Frampton**
And it actually makes a lot of sense neurologically.
Because if you think of all the modalities for body healing—you’ve got chiropractic or massage therapy, Reiki, acupuncture—all those bodywork therapies.
All they’re actually doing, from a neurological and technical perspective, is giving your brain more awareness of your body.
And then once your brain is aware of your entire body or a certain part of your body that’s been injured, it then has the ability to heal.
It’s when we have a lack of awareness of a certain part of our body that the brain doesn’t go and heal it—because it’s not aware of where it is.
So things like acupuncture and chiropractor and massage and Reiki—they all just bring more awareness to that part of the body.
And the same is true with sound frequency—especially if you mess around with different sounds—you feel the sounds vibrate in different parts of your body.
And that’s essentially just showing your brain and making your body more alive.
So it’s kind of all about awareness. Because the body and the brain have the ability to heal, but only if we’re aware of what’s going on.
So yeah, all those bodywork and sound therapy modalities are about creating more awareness.
And, of course, injuries and trauma—they take the awareness away.
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, like shutting down or disassociating from our body or having different systems not neurologically firing together and wiring together in that way.
And especially if people have spinal injuries—the whole ANS system shuts down often if there’s spinal injury.
So the motor neurons can’t fire and a lot of other things aren’t lining up.
So awareness is key. And keeping that awareness and those channels open and fluid are so essential to our health and well-being on multiple layers and levels for sure.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, and not all modalities work for everyone too. Because you hear some people say, “Chiropractic? It’s just a bunch of quacks.”
Well, no—it just doesn’t work for you. Like, go and find your—maybe acupuncture works for you or whatever.
**Kassia Meador**
Totally. It’s so important.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. I’ve tried everything. And for me, it was only some things that worked.
So I stick with those.
**Kassia Meador**
That’s exactly it. I mean, that’s how I got into osteopathy or craniosacral medicine, as well as acupuncture—I really love.
And all that kind of work was really something that helped me.
So it’s so important to honor what works for you, because all of our systems are so varied and different.
Just like we all like different boards and different fins and different waves and different vibes, you know?
It’s like we all like different music a little bit. It’s like—we’ve got to see what resonates with our system and our body, and then lean into that.
**Michael Frampton**
What’s your favorite surfboard?
If you could have one surfboard for the rest of your life, what would it be?
**Kassia Meador**
Jeez, that’s a really hard one. It’s a really hard one just because I like riding big boards and small boards.
So it’s like...
I mean, if I was—it’s hard to choose one board. Just because I feel like if it was a smaller board and it was small, I’d be lacking. And if it was a big board and it was big, I’d be lacking.
I’m like, gosh—it’s so hard.
So, you know, I have this really beautiful 9’5”, kind of piggy shape that my friend Dane shaped me. And it’s my favorite longboard.
It works so good. It’s so smooth off the tail. It nose rides so good. It just is real hippie and has a lot of belly, and it’s just really nice and I love it so much.
And that would be my longboard.
And then, kind of small board-wise—really, my friend Alex Lopez—he’s been shaping these really fun twin pins, and they’re just so nice.
I have like a 6’8” right now that I love. And I think that would be my kind of small board because it can really hold in more solid surf.
And then if it was small, I’d be on my longboard anyway.
But even then, it’s super fun in smaller, punchy waves as well.
That said, it could hold when it’s quite a bit bigger.
So those would be my two—take-them-everywhere-with-you boards.
**Michael Frampton**
Yep. Cool.
And where would you—if you could just have one place to surf, where would that be?
**Kassia Meador**
Gosh. You know, I mean, honestly—out in Indonesia, in the Mentawais.
That whole area is so incredible.
Because there’s lefts, there’s rights, there’s kind of mushier log waves, there’s faster, freight-training style waves.
It’s perfection in every direction.
And that would be it.
If I could just float around there and live there for the rest of my life—why not?
Gosh, it’s beautiful.
**Michael Frampton**
Plans to take a group there?
**Kassia Meador**
Yes, definitely.
I took a small group there last year in the shoulder season, and I’m taking another group there this year during the shoulder season.
We have two little back-to-backs.
I have a friend over there with an awesome resort that we work with.
It’s super small, and they’re such lovely people. I’m super grateful. I love it over there.
And shoulder season’s great. You know, it’s not when people are chasing the big stuff.
It’s just fun, perfect waves, and everybody has a really good time.
And there are so many different waves and variety that everybody can find their flow.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Do you have your own sound bowl at home or do you go somewhere and experience that?
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, I have a lot of sound bowls. I have a giant gong—you can see it behind me.
Yeah, I work a lot with sound. So I carry them often because I bring my sound equipment with me everywhere I go when I do retreats and stuff.
So I have a bunch of bowls. I work a lot with tuning forks, flutes, drums, rattles.
Mostly gongs like that.
When I can and I’m at home—obviously they’re quite large, so I can’t really take them that many places.
That said, I have kind of my travel kit and my home kit, and I do a lot of sound work both locally as well as internationally.
**Michael Frampton**
Cool. Awesome. I see you've gone—you've actually started. Are you specifically treating people, or is it for the retreats or...?
**Kassia Meador**
Like, I was doing one-on-one sessions before I started doing the retreats. So it's been about, like—gosh—like 11 going on 12 years since I've been working with sound and vibrational medicine.
And so I started with a couple of different teachers and, you know, learned on my own for a long time. And we had a whole performance art group back in the day that we would travel, and we even made records with art galleries and stuff.
And at the time, we didn't really—we didn’t call them sound baths—we called them like "abductions," to be honest.
And we just felt like everybody was getting abducted by this sound, really, and taken to a different place.
And we didn't really understand it.
So we started kind of playing with it more and just adapting.
And then we all started noticing the healing effects it was having on us individually, and the people around us that we were bringing it to, you know.
So me and one of the other guys kind of got more interested—there were seven of us at the time—we all got more interested in the healing elements of sound.
So we started jamming together, and both of us kind of studied more with different sound practitioners since.
And, yeah, we’ve kind of been on our journey.
So it's fun, and it's something that I think is a really important element to what we bring in the retreats.
And it's a way to support people's nervous systems and whole body.
It’s like you're having that real physical experience in the water that can be emotional and energetic.
And then, when we get back to land, having these grounding sound journeys is really helpful for people to be able to process and land what we're doing in the water, as well as their own kind of stuff that's coming up for their life.
So it's super fun.
**Michael Frampton**
It makes me wonder—okay, so a sound bowl. Let's take a sound bowl, for example.
You can see it, you can hear it, and you can feel it. Do you get the same experience in the ocean?
Like, can you hear or feel waves as well as see them?
**Kassia Meador**
I don't feel that I can hear them. If I really check into hearing them, like—I'm like, "Can I hear waves?" I can, certain times.
Like, if a wave gets really hollow or that sound inside a tube—that's a sonic experience.
You know, definitely, it's an auditory experience.
That said, I can feel the waves coming.
And I can definitely feel—like, I guess I would have a kinesthetic awareness for the ocean waves.
Not only just riding them, but feeling them or feeling when it's going to be good, feeling when a set's coming—all those kind of things.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, because when you're out surfing and you're surfing—you're just sitting there, everyone's waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden someone moves.
“Why are they paddling over there? I can't see anything on the horizon.”
And then, 20 seconds later, you see something pop, and then everyone else moves.
But that guy's already in position.
I was like, “What did he see?”
Well, maybe he—she—felt it.
**Kassia Meador**
Felt it. Totally.
And you just know.
You know those people that have been out there forever—they know. They can smell it.
Somebody the other day in the water was like, “You know,” he's like, “I can smell the sets coming.”
And I was like, “You can smell it? That's cool.”
And he's like, “Yeah, my wife says that I can only smell sets.”
Like, if she's like, “What?”—puts on her new perfume—I can't smell that, but I can smell a set.
And sure enough, we paddled out and there was a set.
And he's like, “Go.”
I'm like, “All right.” That was fun.
**Michael Frampton**
That's funny.
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, that's cool though, thinking about hearing it.
I mean, depending on how you feel things—different people have different ways of experiencing.
**Michael Frampton**
For sure.
I want to ask you one more question and then we'll—it's coming up to the hour now.
If there was one piece of advice that you could give to beginners—beginner surfers—what would that be?
**Kassia Meador**
Gosh, have fun and don't be so hard on yourself.
Really.
You know, it's like I can witness people getting so frustrated with themselves and so frustrated in the water.
It's like—just enjoy the ride and enjoy the whole process, right?
It's so important to enjoy every piece of it.
It's not just about getting better. It's about the experience of it all.
And, you know, so it's bigger than just one piece of advice.
But I feel that the ocean is like a mirror.
So it reflects for us whatever's coming up, right?
So if somebody has issues with control, right—that’s going to come up for them.
You're not in control in the ocean.
Maybe that's why you're called to it.
So if you can really feel into—how is this a reflection of my life and some of the things that I have an opportunity to work on—how can I see them work both ways?
And how can I mirror on land what is being mirrored for me in the water and vice versa?
And move through it.
**Michael Frampton**
How do you balance that with—'cause I'm sure there was a part of your life where you sort of...
I mean, to get better, you kind of—you have to, on some level—take it seriously, right? To improve an aspect of your technique or...
**Kassia Meador**
Totally.
I mean, we're constantly getting better, right?
Like, we've been surfing for so long—it's like nobody has ever arrived.
You know, whether it's your first time in the water or you're Kelly Slater—you're falling.
Everybody. The ocean's always in charge, you know?
So I think just allowing yourself to be humbled time and time again by this giant force of nature—literally, water—and pushing yourself into it, and not getting frustrated at yourself.
And yeah, you might have moments and days, and just going back to remembering—it’s about the fun.
And sometimes it's fun to just let go completely and be totally shaken around and feel alive.
That said, you know, the next time is not going to be like that.
So I feel like those points of tension in our surfing or in our day-to-day life are the biggest opportunities to learn.
So if we can not be stuck, if we can not waste energy on being hard on ourselves, if we can actually use it as fuel to move through it—the breakdown to breakthrough—then we can actually progress a lot faster by having that humility and kind of leaning into it rather than being like, “No.”
**Michael Frampton**
Cool.
Well, Kassia, thank you so much for your time.
The Surf Mastery Podcast is all about inspiration and education, and I think you embody both of those things.
Obviously, listeners can Google you and watch a bunch of footage of you surfing on YouTube.
And for inspiration and education, you've got your course on The Inertia, which I'll put links to in the show notes.
And of course, you've got the wetsuits at kassiasurf.com. Is that correct?
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, kassiasurf.com, exactly.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah, sorry Kassia, I didn’t get the pronunciation right.
Salty Sensations.
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah, Salty Sensations is something that my friend Leah, myself, Mikayla, and now Andy are all working on.
And that’s a lot of fun.
That said, I always post stuff on my own personal website for that whenever we have those retreats happening.
So people can find that info anywhere.
And maybe I can make a cool little discount code for you if anybody wants to use the bundle for The Inertia course, or if anybody wants to try out any of our wetsuits.
I’ll create something super sweet and special for your listeners.
So I don’t know if that’s...
**Michael Frampton**
Helpful. Definitely.
Let me know what that is and I’ll put it in the post-production, etc.
But I haven’t missed anything—are those your main three avenues?
**Kassia Meador**
Yeah.
Check us out either on Instagram, online, or—you know—come check us out in person.
It's always more fun to get together.
**Michael Frampton**
Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah, I’ll put links to all that stuff in the show notes.
Again, thank you so much for your time.
**Kassia Meador**
Awesome. You’re epic, Michael. Thanks so much for having me, and have a beautiful day.
**Michael Frampton**
Get 25% off at kassiasurf.com—use the code **SURFMASTERYLOVE**.
And for a 10% discount off Kassia’s surfing e-course, use the code **WELCOME10**.
Those discount codes are listed in the show notes along with the relevant website.
Thank you for tuning in, and until next time—keep surfing.

93 Kassia Meador
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

92 Andrew Gelles - Concrete to Crest Nov 10, 2023

In just over a year Andrew was surfing Pipeline. Andrew discusses his transition from skateboarding to surfing, sharing insights from trips to El Salvador and Hawaii. They delve into the dangers of surfing, emphasizing the importance of taking it slow and respecting the waves.

The conversation covers personal well-being, worst surfing advice, and the unique dynamics of Andrew's Brooklyn skate park. The hosts also explore the pros and cons of using a carver skateboard and share humorous anecdotes about challenging surf conditions.

The podcast concludes with reflections on the changing skate industry and the need for affordable skate parks. Throughout, the hosts infuse the discussion with camaraderie, providing an entertaining blend of nostalgia, insight, and humor.

https://www.instagram.com/andrewhgelles/?hl=en

https://substanceskatepark.com

https://www.rosdiner.com

91 Rob Case - Paddling Coach Oct 13, 2023

This episode of "The Surf Mastery Podcast," hosts Rob Case. Rob and Michael reconnect after a hiatus and delve into their personal struggles, the well-being of their children, and their profound love for surfing. They explore a range of surfing-related topics, including the importance of mastering techniques like the pop-up and strategic wave-catching. They discuss surf trip challenges, their vision for professional surfing, their frustrations with the World Surf League (WSL), and the significance of surf culture and etiquette. The conversation also touches on family-friendly surf trips, wave pools, and diverse surfboard choices, concluding with their shared enthusiasm for surfing and aspirations to collaborate on surfing education.

The episode offers a deep dive into the world of surfing, teaching, and the broader surf culture, covering everything from fundamental skills to the future of professional surfing and the importance of the surfing community.

Episode 12 with Rob:

Spotify

Apple

Rob's Website:

https://www.surfingpaddling.com/

https://surfmastery.com/

90 Connor Beaton - Man Talk Aug 22, 2023

ManTalks founder Connor Beaton - podcaster, author, coach, father and husband. Connor brings a relational and common sense approach to the "manosphere". His podcast has been paramount in my journey of self-discovery and relationship education. We discuss masculinity, icons, men’s issues & more.

Connor's website:

https://mantalks.com/

89 Rambo Estrada - Surf Photographer Jun 12, 2023

Rambo Estrada is a surf photographer from New Zealand, best known for his iconic shots of uncrowded perfect waves. We talk about how to be in the right place at the right time, how to score perfect waves. In the second half of the interview we discuss gear, photography techniques, and lots of tips to help you take better surfing photos.

You can see Rambo's work here:

https://www.estradasurfing.co.nz/

https://www.instagram.com/ramboestrada/?hl=en

https://rambo-estrada.com/

Surf Mastery website:

https://surfmastery.com

88 Sir John Kirwan May 25, 2023

Sir John Kirwan - Former All Black and international rugby coach, life-long surfer, mental health advocate & spokesperson, author, businessman, father and husband. John shares his wide-ranging wisdom gained from the highs and lows of a very full and succesfull life. Links to everything John Kirwan:

https://jkfoundation.org.nz/

https://www.groovnow.com/

https://www.mitey.org.nz/

https://www.instagram.com/johnkirwan14/?hl=en

www.surfmastery.com

87 Andrew Goodman - Surf Coach May 09, 2023

Experienced surf coach and surf guide Andrew Goodman and I discuss surf tips for all levels. Board choice, wave reading, culture and etiquette, surf travel + much more.

https://www.instagram.com/andleo__/?hl=en

https://www.andrewgoodmansurfcoach.com/

https://www.facebook.com/andrewgoodmansurfcoaching/

www.surfmastery.com

86 Devon Howard - Twin Fins Mar 29, 2023

Devon Howard and I discuss twin fins, in particular the Channel Islands Mid Twin. The types of waves and style of surfing best suited for mid length twin fins, tips and techniques for surfing them, different fins, board design elements. We compare the mid twin to single fins and 2 + 1 set ups. Devon also addresses the most common questions he gets asked about mid lengths.

To see the board and view the video of it being surfed:

https://cisurfboards.com/products/ci-mid-twin

Devon's Intagram:

https://www.instagram.com/devon_howard/?hl=en

Previous episodes with Devon:

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000554669848

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000437394721

85 Shane Beschen - The Fun of Getting Better Mar 16, 2023

Surf Coach Shane Beschen shares some of his surfing knowledge. Shane finished 2nd on the pro tour in 1996 and has been in the surfing industry for over 30 years as a pro athlete, coach, writer and much more.

Follow Shane on Instagram for loads of surfing tips:

https://www.instagram.com/shanebeschen/?hl=en

More about Shane:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shanebeschen/

Wave Pools:

http://revelsurf.com/

https://cannonbeachaz.com/

https://atthelineup.com/

https://surfmastery.com

84 Jack Jensen - Channelling your MiSFiT Energy Mar 09, 2023

Jack Jensen is the CEO of MSFT Productions, and mental health advocate. He shares his powerful mission, message and story. His brand, business and mental health initiative - #sparkthatchat, all encompass Jack's genuine mission and passion to do good in this world

Jack is a true inspiration for all, but especially young men.

https://msftproductions.net/

#sparkthatchat -

https://msftproductions.net/sparkthatchat

Resources:

https://msftproductions.net/mental-health-resources

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/msft_productions/

https://www.instagram.com/jackk_jensenn/?hl=en

Life Coaching:

https://surfmastery.com/life-coaching

Music - Sandy Dunes by SUNZ

https://open.spotify.com/track/5UjI551rUJTZsuDUxu8zGH?si=7a60280b57a34c96

83 Dr. Michael Gervais - High Performance Psychologist Feb 21, 2023

Stay in the surf and stay in the room: How surfing and psychotherapy can improve your relationships and your athletic performance

In this episode we discuss:

The similarities and differences between sports psychology and psychotherapy, who should, and when to use sports psychology or therapy. What is a good coach, the importance of quality relationships.The holistic effects of therapy, 3 things all high performers have in common, Jordan Peterson and much more.

Michael Gervais is a high performance psychologist and host of the Finding Mastery Podcast.

Finding Mastery Website

Instagram

www.surfmastery.com

My first interview with Gervais: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000383032432

82 How to Start Surfing with Clayton Nienaber Feb 02, 2023

https://ombe.co/?ref=2

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000372736261

www.surfmastery.com

81 Eddie Ifft - Comedian Podcaster Surfer Nov 21, 2022

Eddie Ifft is a Stand-up comedian, podcaster and surfer. (WARNING: This episode contains dark comedy, shock comedy and satire.) Eddie shares some surfing stories, his hilarious takes on the surfing culture, how MacDonalds improved his health and much more.

https://eddieifft.com

https://www.instagram.com/eddieifft/

Eddies' Podcasts:

https://eddieifft.com/podcasts/

80 Linton Fafie - Surf Coach Nov 16, 2022

Linton Fafie coaches at Surfing Australia's High Performance Centre and in Byron Bay NSW - "High Performance Surf Coaching for the everyday surfer".

In this episode we discuss strategies for the intermediate surfers' plateaus, ideal beginner pathways, wave reading fundametals, pop-up mistakes, DNS and much more.

Check Linton's website:

https://nextlevelsurfcoaching.com/

Follow his Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/nextlevelsurfcoaching/?hl=en

DNS Episode:

https://surfmastery.com/podcast/050-dns

Life Coaching:

https://surfmastery.com/mens-life-coaching

79 Matt Scorringe - Olympic Surf Coach Sep 21, 2022

We talk about Matt's time as coach of the New Zealand Olympic surfing team and the experiance of the event. What the role of a surf coach is at the Olympics and how his role as surf coach to the average surfer has evolved and adpated post Covid + much more.

For 20% off the academy:

Code - SURFMASTERY20 for 20% off the academy

Link-

https://www.theartofsurfing.com/taos-academy-membership

Anyone that joins the November cohort put SURFMASTERY in the comments box during checkout and they will be emailed their 100% off code for 1 year of the academy.

Link-

https://www.theartofsurfing.com/remote-coaching

Matt's Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/theartofsurfing/?hl=en

Matt's first episode (ep 05):

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000365196083

www.surfmastery.com

Thank you Matt Scorringe

78 Dean Stott - The Frogman Sep 07, 2022

Former British Milatry SBS soldier, author, world record holder and surfer Dean Stott.

Dean talks about how lessons form surfing helped his military carreer, self belief, surf break reconnaissance, parenting + more.

https://www.deanstott.com

https://www.instagram.com/deanstott/?hl=en

https://jockopodcast.com/2021/02/24/270-are-you-who-you-are-capable-of-being-the-relentless-pursuit-of-excellence-w-british-special-forces-soldier-frogman-dean-stott/

77 Shaun Tomson - The Evolution of Stoke Aug 17, 2022

1977 Surfing World champ and best selling author Shaun Tomson.

Shaun talks about how lessons learnt from surfing can be applied to any of life's situations. Shaun's tenacious optimism and wisdom is infectious and profound.

We also discuss his ever evolving relationship to the ocean and surfing, the depth and power of the word Stoke, what great surfers all have in common, plus much more.

Shaun's website:

https://shauntomson.com

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/shauntomson/?hl=en

The Surfer and the Sage:

https://www.amazon.com/Surfer-Sage-Guide-Survive-Lifes/dp/1641706554

76 Donald Brink - Fascinated with Surfing Aug 01, 2022

SoCal surfboard shaper & fellow podcaster Donald Brink and I discuss; the resonant frequency of surfboards, comparisons of surfing to music, the evolution of surf coaching, life, one’s relationship to the ocean + much more.

www.brinksurf.com

https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en

75 Holly Beck - Holistic Surf Coach & Surf Therapist Jul 14, 2022

Holly Beck is a former pro surfer turned holistic surf coach and surf therapist. This is an in depth discussion about how surfing affects our psychology and vica versa.

https://www.surfwithhollybeck.com

https://surfwithamigas.com

https://www.groundswellcommunity.org

Find out more about working with me as a life coach / Therapist:

https://surfmastery.com/mens-life-coaching

74 Jonathan Wayne Freeman May 11, 2022

Surfer and comedian Jon Wayne Freeman entertains & teaches us about surfing and the surf culture at large. He also shares his inpirational story of breaking free from the 9-5 work week - making his dreams a reality, and the important part sobriety has been on that journey.

Jon's Intagram:

https://www.instagram.com/jonathanwaynefreeman/?hl=en

73 The Details feat Tom Carroll May 04, 2022

A short episode featuring my favorite tip from Tom Carroll - Look for the detail on the wave. Pay close attention to the finer details of the wave, the wind chops, the secondary swell, the backwash, every bump, nook, and cranny. Look at the way the light reflects off of every small ripple, look to see where and how water is moving and where it is moving most so you can generate speed.

Episode 2:

iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000363823238

Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Vy2AwetfV04oHJeNK56Z3?si=8v2ocwxbS1CC2TFnsH6jiQ

72 VAN NEISTAT - The Spirited Surfer Apr 12, 2022

Artist and creator of The Spirtited Man - Van Neistat and I discuss surfing, art, culture, mastery, flow + more.

Van makes artistic and entertaining videos that are philosophical, funny and inspiring.

Links to some of his work:

The Spirited Man YouTube

https://www.patreon.com/spiritedman

Who Sets the Standard video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz_ETXDqdCU

https://spiritedman.com

How to Learn How to Surf

71 Surf 5X Better in 8 Days Apr 05, 2022

https://surfmastery.com/workshops

www.surfmastery.com

70 DEVON HOWARD - Mid Length Crash Course Mar 21, 2022

Devon Howard explains mid length surfboards, appropriate conditions for use, correct technique, the right size for you, their limitations, the history of, how to duck-dive them and much more.

Donate to the show

Devon's Insta:

@devon_howard

Inspiration:

https://cisurfboards.com/products/ci-mid

Devon surfing

https://vimeo.com/445271963

Torren Martyn

https://youtu.be/cOHc2TSvCI8

Mikey Feburary

https://youtu.be/exwNbChf_oc

Alex Knost

https://youtu.be/e91uJK4vr10

Machado

https://youtu.be/feTz87pDMWs

69 Wingnut - Endless Fun Mar 07, 2022

https://www.waynerich.com/

DONATE to SMP

OMBE 12 week challenge

www.surfmastery.com

https://buellsurf.com/

68 Performance Strands & Coaching Wisdom w GEORGE STOY Feb 14, 2022

https://www.georgessurfschool.com/

@georgessurfschool

Online Surf Coaching

OMBE

https://surfmastery.com

067: The Physics & Neuroscience of Surfing w Clayton Nienaber Oct 28, 2021

https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery

www.surfmastery.com

066: My Favorite Episode - Clayton Nienaber Oct 20, 2021

OMBE link:

https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery

Donate

https://surfmastery.com

065: Coaching the Female Athlete with Gee Cormack Apr 27, 2021

https://chixsurfschool.com.au/

https://www.instagram.com/chixsurfschool/

064: BRAD GERLACH - Project Fun Mar 27, 2021

https://www.waveki.com/

10% off Promo code: WAVEKISURFMASTER

To donate to The Surf Mastery Podcast, go to the home page:

https://surfmastery.com

063: CC#6 - Gee Cormack Feb 16, 2021

https://chixsurfschool.com.au

https://www.instagram.com/chixsurfschool/?hl=en

http://surfmastery.com/podcast/022-gee-cormack

Song Hopefulessness - Courtney Barnett

062: CC#5 - Hunting Waves Jan 27, 2021

Blog Post:

http://surfmastery.com/blog/2019/5/2/hunting-waves

061: JAMES WOOD - Surf Coach Nov 13, 2020

https://www.instagram.com/jimmywood/

https://www.instagram.com/woodsurfboardslennox/

060: STRIDER WASILEWSKI - WSL Commentator Aug 10, 2020

https://www.instagram.com/stridersworld/?hl=en

https://shadesunscreen.com/

Strider on the L8night with choccy’s Podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-conversation-with-strider-raspberry-wasilewski/id1456553813?i=1000464476639

059: DAVID LEE SCALES - Surf Splendor Podcast Founder/Host Jul 21, 2020

https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/

Surf Splendor Podcast

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/surf-splendor/id677929014

The Grit Podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-grit-with-chas-smith/id1336643980

Spit Podcast

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spit-surf-podcast/id1250225635

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/surfsplendor/?hl=en

You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKnQvHULQJRlkJ5F0BJER8A

058: MARTIN DUNN - Surf Coach Jun 18, 2020

https://www.martindunn.com.au/

https://www.instagram.com/martin.dunn.surfcoach/

057: RON RATHBUN - Founder of Kelee Meditation Apr 30, 2020

Music: Don’t Dream it’s Over - Crowded House

https://thekelee.org/

https://www.amazon.com/Kelee%C2%AE-Meditation-Medical-Study-ebook/dp/B00B3YWTRO/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=kelee+study&qid=1588283559&s=books&sr=1-2

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/032-matt-griggs-busting-through-terminal-mediocrity/id1088660076?i=1000412521842

056: LUKE CEDERMAN - Raglan Surf Report Apr 17, 2020

https://www.instagram.com/raglansurfreport/?hl=en

Music: OMC - Lingo with the Gringo

055: Matt Grainger - Surfer, Coach, Philosopher. Apr 10, 2020

https://www.instagram.com/manlysurfschool/?hl=en

054: Tom Carroll's Knee Mar 02, 2020

https://uluwatusurfvillas.com/tom-carroll/

https://www.instagram.com/thomasvictorcarroll/?hl=en

053: SAMBA MANN - Surf Coach Feb 17, 2020

https://www.instagram.com/samba_mann/?hl=en

052: CRIS MILLS - Surf Strength Coach Jan 13, 2020

Surfing Workshop:

https://travelersurfclub.com/products/shortboard

Cris’ website:

https://surfstrengthcoach.com/

DNS:

https://www.rehabps.com/REHABILITATION/Home.html

Chris’ app:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/surfathlete/id1473672898

051: ALEXA HOHENBERG - Still Stoked #igotyou Dec 15, 2019

Take the #igotyou pledge:

https://stillstoked.lpages.co/i-got-you-pledge/

Enter the #igotyou promotion here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StillStokedTribe/

Find out more about the Mentawais trip:

https://www.stillstoked.com/womens-mentawais-surf-boat-trip/

https://www.stillstoked.com

050: DNS with MICHAEL RINTALA D.C Dec 11, 2019

https://www.rintalachiro.com/

All show notes available here:

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/050-dns

049: CC#4 - Cure 'Poo Stance' with Twiggy Van Ryan Nov 28, 2019

Twiggy’s Instagram @bettersurftechnique

https://www.instagram.com/bettersurftechnique/?hl=en

Website:

https://www.indojoy.surf/

048: CC#3 - Reading Waves with Clayton Nienaber. Nov 13, 2019

https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery

www.surfmastery.com

047: JESSE FAEN - Former WSL Media Director Nov 06, 2019

instagram - @jessefaen

https://www.instagram.com/jessefaen/?hl=en

046: Going DEEP with Matt Griggs & Taylor Knox Oct 28, 2019

Vid:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RdxWUuce1rY&feature=youtu.be

Book a trip with Matt and Taylor:

https://thenatureofsuccess.com.au

Resort:

http://malibupopoyo.com/

Vid made by:

https://www.palmer-inc.com/

045: JAMIE BRISICK - Former Pro Surfer, Writer, Author. Sep 23, 2019

http://www.jamiebrisick.com

https://www.birdwell.com/pages/the-dazzling-blue

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/199-jamie-brisick/id677929014?i=1000399118917

https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/199-wax-on-jamie-brisick/

https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/283-the-dazzling-blue-jamie-brisick-and-william-finnegan/

044: CC#2 - Tension with Clayton Nienaber Sep 05, 2019

https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery

043: CC#1 - Beginning to be Intermediate Jul 30, 2019

Blog post:

surfmastery.com/blog/2019/7/18/beginning-to-be-intermediate

Intro/Outro Music https://www.katchafireofficial.com/

042: DONALD BRINK - Surfer, Shaper. May 29, 2019

http://www.brinksurf.com/

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/swell-with-my-soul/id1395529749

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/042-donaldbrink

Music:

https://www.instagram.com/izzyouterspace/?hl=en

041: Noseriding - with DEVON HOWARD May 07, 2019

Devon breaks down noseriding & cross stepping, we discuss dry-land and balance training. We talk appropriate traditional longboarding equipment and style. We also get into surfing etiquette, line-up politics and the current state of surfing.

Appropriate equipment:

https://www.waynerich.com/

https://www.thomassurfboards.com/collections/boards/products/surfboard-06

Devon Surfing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17bG-BJgEec

https://www.instagram.com/devon_howard/?hl=en

Ep70: Devon talks Mid Lengths -

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076?i=1000554669848

040: SAMBA MANN - Surf Coach Apr 29, 2019

https://www.instagram.com/samba_mann/?hl=en

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoOcDV5-VvY

https://www.surfingaustraliahpc.com/

039: ADAM KNOX - Surf Coach & Former Pro Apr 08, 2019

https://www.neutrility.com

@adam_knox

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/039-adam-knox

038: A Surfer Who Only Knows Feeling - MATT FORMSTON - 2X Adaptive Surfing World Champ Apr 04, 2019

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/038-matt-formston

http://malibupopoyo.com/events/

https://thebeachbox.surf

http://mattformston.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/samba-mann-54210164/

037: MATT ARCHBOLD - Speed Style Longevity Jan 31, 2019

https://archysgarage.com/

http://malibupopoyo.com/

http://surfmastery.com/podcast/037archy

036: The 'Surfers' Relationship to Surfing Oct 31, 2018

https://boardroomshow.com/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/philosophy-stirred-not-shaken/201411/are-there-positive-addictions

http://www.spitpodcast.com/

035: DAVID HALL - Posture - How to sit on a surfboard. Oct 22, 2018

Link the lesson audio:

http://www.bodylogic.net.au/lessons/sitting-on-water

034: ROB BAIN - Former World Tour Pro-Surfer. Sep 19, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_18a7rXtxM

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/aint-that-swell/id1161622586?mt=2

http://simonandersonsurfboards.com/au/

https://eos.surf/entries/bain-rob

033: Surfers are the Worst Sep 13, 2018

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-boardroom-podcast/id1387534637

https://boardroomshow.com/

http://www.spitpodcast.com/

032: MATT GRIGGS - Busting Through Terminal Mediocrity May 29, 2018

Elite performance coach Matt Griggs teaches us how to break through performance plateaus.

https://thenatureofsuccess.com.au

In episode 31 - Taylor Knox we touched on the feeling of surfing, in this episode we dive at lot deeper into the 'feeling' of surfing, and how Kelee Meditation can enhance the feeling of surfing, and the quality of your life.

You can hear more from Matt in episodes 03 and 46

http://www.mattgriggs.com.au

http://www.thekelee.org

http://thekelee.com/

https://vimeo.com/239627002

www.surfmastery.com/podcast