Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, Nash’s Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass’s Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book.
They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.
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Books Mentioned in this Episode
* Story Genius by Lisa Cron
* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass
* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline Madden
The Substack Exchange We Couldn’t Find — We Found It!
Blueprint Courses
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Transcript
Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey, everyone. It’s Jennie, and I have a really fun episode today. I’m speaking with novelist Carolyn Madden, and we just had a fun interaction on Substack about a really profound thing, and we actually just tried to find our interaction, and we’re unable to do so.
So we’re going to have to recreate what it was. But the topic that we’re talking about is why writers, especially debut writers, but all writers, so desperately want traditional publishing deals, what that desire is, what that feeling is. And I saw something that Carolyn wrote [00:01:00] on Substack and, and just was like, “This, this.
Why is not everybody talking about this?” So we’re going to talk about this. So welcome.
Caroline: Thank you so much, Jennie. I’m really thrilled to be here, especially because, um, I have your Blueprint for a Book, a nonfiction book that I ordered. I suppose it must have been maybe 10 years ago.
Jennie: Oh my gosh. Well, that was what
Caroline: was- 10...
Would it be 10 years ago?
Jennie: That was what was so... Part of what was so fun was I- Yeah ... I didn’t know who you were, and I responded to this note. And you said, “Oh, I, I know who you are. I have your book.” And, um- Yeah ... and here we are. So that
Caroline: was- And you didn’t know that... Yeah, you didn’t know because I do recommend it a lot.
So I, I... That’s so funny. Um, so it’s a pure coincidence. And I will say that this is... There was like a turning point. Just to go back a little bit, I’ve had a very, very long, uh, trip, uh, circuitous, scenic route to being published. So [00:02:00] my debut novel, The Marriage Vendetta, was published last year by Harper Collins.
But... And it’s about a woman called Eliza, a musician. It’s based on a real-life character. But I have been working on some version of Eliza’s story for- 20 years now at this stage. So it took me more than a decade of actively trying to get published to get my book deal. And there was a pivotal moment where I was brought very low.
It’s like in a novel where you have your dark night of the soul. I had lost my second agent. I had died on submission twice, and I thought, “I cannot keep doing this to myself because I will end up an old lady with a pile of unpublished novels. I either quit now or I do something differently.” And what I did was I was like, “Okay, I’m not giving up.”
I went online, I ordered Story Genius by Lisa Cron, discovered you through that and bought this book, and I bought the Donald Maass book as well. And those three books were the turning points of my whole writing life, [00:03:00] and completely changed how I wrote. And if I hadn’t bought them, I would still be writing those pointless novels, Jennie, so I’m so grateful.
Um-
Jennie: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah. So, so it was Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, and we have to get the name of Donald’s book, ‘cause it’s great and it’s ... I’m blanking on it right now. Um-
Caroline: Yeah, the one that- I’m just- I have a couple, but it was, um, the How To ... I have it here. Yeah, Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook. This one.
Okay. And the funny thing is, Jennie, I mean, last week when you, or the, whenever it was you contacted me, it was just such an exciting moment for me because that was such a pivotal book. But the weird thing is, and I just don’t know how this has happened, it’s like karma, I am now represented by the Donald Maass agency, but I never queried him.
It was completely by accident, and I just think there’s some kind of karma at work. I don’t know. Um,
Jennie: because I
Caroline: haven’t- This is
Jennie: crazy.
Caroline: It’s just gone crazy.
Jennie: It’s crazy. Yeah. It’s ... So more than a dozen years trying to get published, but [00:04:00] you- Yes ... but you write for The Irish Times, is that correct? You’re a journalist.
Caroline: Uh, yeah, so, and this kinda comes back to what I was talking about on Substack. I decided I wanted to be published when I was sort of mid-20s, like as a novelist, but I thought, “I’ll start small. I’ll just start trying to get some, um, some small bits and pieces published. Okay, I’ll try and write some journalism.”
I, I was working as a tax consultant at the time and I wanted to get out of it. And what happened was I did get some articles published, and then it actually turned into a whole career in journalism that went on for a long time, and I wrote for The Irish Times for a long time, all with the aim of getting a novel published.
Jennie: Wow.
Caroline: Yeah.
Jennie: So, um, I, I actually did a, a speed read of The Marriage Vendetta. It’s such a fun- Thank you ... kind of romp of a, a story. It’s- Yeah ... it’s, um, it’s very feminist Thank you. It’s, it’s, um- Yeah ... funny. It’s dark. It’s, [00:05:00] uh, satire. I, I heard some people describe it as domestic thriller. Yeah. Um, so this, this book has come out now, um, well, last year, and you have another coming out next year.
Is-
Caroline: Yeah ... is it
Jennie: in the
Caroline: same
Jennie: vein? Yeah. The same type of story?
Caroline: It is. It’s a little bit darker, but it is, I suppose, a feminist thriller. And so in total, I’ve written four complete novels. Two of them I wrote before discovering Story Genius and Blueprint for a Book and Donald Maass, and those two died a death.
They died. One, one of them died twice on submission, uh, two agents. The other one never even made it on submission. So I wrote two without this method, and I wrote two novels with this method, and both of those have got deals, so it was pivotal. But I think what we were talking about with Substack was I think I put something of saying like, it wasn’t until I stepped back and looked at this obsession that really
I [00:06:00] mean, it took over my life. It, it’s why I went into journalism. I put everything into it, and I’ve met so many people, aspiring writers, who are the same. It’s a sort of fixation. It’s an obsession. And when I hit that low point of losing my second agent, I thought, “I’ve got to figure out what is driving this,” because this is destructive in my life.
It’s actually an, an unhealthy addiction now at this point. And so obviously I thought, “Is it for the money?” Well, no, because you can make more money in practically any other line of work really, because I’d made no money from it. So- From being a lawyer ... so, you
Jennie: know. Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah, so it’s, it is not for the money.
Okay, is it, um- To get a- a- an audience, to get your message out there. Well, I’m a journalist, so it can’t be that. Oh. Um, and so what I did was I ... I was just like, “Th- th- this, it must be just for sort of, like, the validation.” So what I decided, and I thought, that’s not a very healthy motivator, because it’s never enough, really.
You get the book deal, [00:07:00] then, well, someone else got a bigger book deal. So I thought, I’ve got to get, have a ... I, this is gonna destroy me. I, I either have to quit or figure out a healthier perspective of it. So what I did was I zoomed right back out, a bigger picture. Like, let’s say at the end of my days and I look back and I think, “Yeah, that was a life well spent,” what does that look like?
And I thought, well, let’s say I have five novels published and they were okay, and people like them. Is that big enough? And I thought, that’s not big enough. And what was important to me at that time were a lot of feminist issues, gender equality, and I thought, if I could move the needle even in the tiniest way on any of those sort of issues, now that is a life well spent.
And so then writing a novel just became, that became my North Star. And then I thought, well, writing a novel is only a part of that. Okay, if I get a, uh, get to write a feminist novel with a, with a sort of subtle message, fantastic. It’s part of it. But there are so many other ways within my control that I could try at [00:08:00] least to- Contribute to feminist causes or those sort of things.
Um, so it gave me back a sense of control. It put things in perspective as well, and it also took the focus off, like, the ego. Like, I want to be accepted, you know? And it took the pressure off my novels, because I was fixating on ... And I know people who do this, and they say to me, “I won’t ... I, I don’t know what I will do if I don’t get a book deal.”
And I think, I kind of think now that I was so desperate, and I think that desperation can repel success. You’re clinging so tight to it, and then you end up sort of chasing trends and, “Well, that might work. And publishers like m- might like that,” instead of actually taking a breath and looking inwards.
Like, “What’s important to me? Like, what is the biggest moral dilemma I’m grappling with right now? What’s worth writing about? And okay, I want to get paid for my [00:09:00] novels, but I also need them to be about something important without being preachy.” You know, like, and the, the fiction is so powerful that you can, you know, suck people in with a story, and then they can go away with a different perspective if you’ve pulled it off.
And I thought, “Well, that’s the power of fiction.” And I think when I got a healthier perspective on, like, not just, like, fixating on s- the success of my novels, that’s actually when I got the deal. Um, because I think we put so much pressure on our novels to make our lives perfect. And then I had had a, a nonfiction book published in my 20s, uh, and I knew what the
And I had got to know an awful lot of writers. And I had seen that failure had been very hard for me, but I could see that success had been difficult for some authors I knew as well, because they might have had very quick initial success with their novels, but then maybe subsequent novels were not successful and they were struggling to get published again.[00:10:00]
And they were actually more devastated than aspiring authors who hadn’t got a deal yet. So I had seen, like, if you pin all your hopes on a book deal, it’s gonna make your life perfect, and it’s all gonna be worth it, I could see what was, what had happened to people who had quick, quick early success and hadn’t experienced, like, the brut- brutal rejections-
Jennie: Yeah
Caroline: and didn’t know what a difficult industry they were getting into.
Jennie: Well- You
Caroline: know, I
Jennie: said- ... first of all, I, I just have to thank you for your honesty. It’s, it’s unusual to hear someone be so honest about- Well, you’re using the word obsession and- Mm-hmm ... and that you felt it was what was going to make your life worth living, and you used the word addiction.
I think a lot of writers feel that, but they’re afraid to talk about how big and powerful those feelings are. So I- it’s incredible that you’re [00:11:00] doing that, and you’re, you’re using your Instagram and Substack to, to speak about these things. And I, of course, the reason it stopped me in my tracks was, of course, and I didn’t know that you had, had been reading The Blueprint, but the first step of The Blueprint is why are you even doing this?
And- Yes ... you know, it w- I saw you answering why on a bigger plane. Mm. You know, my question is about why are you writing this book, but your question was why are you, why do you want to be published in this way? And that stepping back, you were sharing how you step back and, and really broke down, well, what could be driving this?
And- Mm ... um, I, I agree that wh- where the writer sits in relation to their work matters, impacts the work. It just, it does. And- Yeah ... I see that all the time. I feel it [00:12:00] in, in my own self all the time. And, um, so I just think you’re doing a great service. Um, and I wonder if this type of conversation in your mind connects...
You know, you talked about you wanted your books to move the needle in this, around ideas of feminism and, and empowerment for women. Do you feel that these conversations are doing the same thing? These conversations about- Do you mean in the sense
Caroline: of- ...
Jennie: about helping writers understand their, their deep motivations and, and their, um, relationship to rejection and does it, does it sit in the same-
Caroline: I think so
Jennie: place?
Caroline: I think so because I think it all comes from You spoke about it in another episode that I listened to. It’s this pick me girl energy. Yes. We want to be the good client for our agent, [00:13:00] and even I have it in the book where she goes to a marriage therapist. Irish fe- I’m from Ireland, and we have this tendency if we ever do actually go to therapy, we want to be their favorite client.
We want to give the right answers, you know? And with our editors, we want to be the easygoing. We want to be picked. And so this was the opposite. This, these kind of conversations saying you have to be okay in yourself. Like, your worth does not depend on how many books you’re, you sell. You are still just as valuable whether you get a book deal or not, and there are things within your control.
It’s kind of like, what’s in your control? And that is, like for ex- I’ll give an example. So when my book, The Marriage of Indebted, did actually go out on submission, this was my third time on submission, and it had been so harrowing the first two times, uh, because it had kind of coincided weirdly both times with going on maternity leave and leaving my job behind, this strange [00:14:00] feeling of being invisible, and then we both failed.
So I thought, “I can’t go through that again.” And, uh, so I thought- It’s actually from your blueprint for a book. You had said, I think you had said, it’s probably from your book, that if you pick a sort of a, something that you’re important that you’re wrestling with, like an emotion or a moral choice that you’re wrestling with in your own life...
Not that my book is in any way autobiographical, but the emotional wrestling and moral choices. Um, and if you work that out in your novel, then you could end up with figuring out something more important to your life than a book deal ever could be. You could have figured out a central dilemma in your own life.
And so with each of my books now, I have done that. Like, I might disguise them with a metaphor, I might disguise them with completely different characters and even a different situation, but at the end of writing each of these books through that method, I come out with something more valuable than a book deal.
And I [00:15:00] genuinely mean that. I don’t mean that in a sort of, like, we should all aspire to this. Really, I have figured out difficult things that I have wrestled with. And so when my book was about to go out on submission, I just said to myself, “That book kept me sane writing it through COVID. It kept, it literally kept me sane, the focus of writing it, and I figured out a lot of stuff, how I felt about things, what’s the right thing to do in situations.”
And I thought, “This book really genuinely owes me nothing. Like, it, it saved my sanity and it’s changed my life writing it, and so it owes me nothing. It’s going out on submission, let it go where it will.” And I, then I just had this, I, I kind of genuinely meant it and I had this certainty it’s gonna happen with this book.
It was almost like, ‘cause I’d given up the desperation, I put no kind of pressure on the book, I just felt the certainty it is gonna happen with this book. And within a couple of days, I, my agent had sent it out in Ireland, the UK, and the US. Within a couple of [00:16:00] days, bearing in mind this is after 15 years of rejection, editors started coming back They were all intere- not all interested, but so many were interested.
We had so many Zoom calls with interested agents, editors. An editor we hadn’t even sent it to heard about it, got in touch, wanted to acquire it. Film agents, translation rights agents. It was just coming out of the woodwork. I don’t know, literary scouts heard about it, something. And then it went to auction in the US, and Harper Collins bought it, and then it was preempted in Ireland and the UK.
And I’m not saying any of that to kind of boast or stick it in anyone who’s on submission, because I’ve been through the heartbreak, but just to show that sometimes when you change your perspective on the way, on what you’re hoping to get out of your book, then actually the success you wanted comes along.
But I did feel, Jennie, when those, when that was coming in, it was that sort of destabilizing external validation, “Oh, I’m getting picked.” And I could feel that s- sucking you [00:17:00] back in again, like- Yeah ... “This feels good.” But it was that same sort of dangerous, addictive little high. And then if we hadn’t heard from anyone for a few days, I was like, “Well, where is everyone?”
You know? I, I want that high back again, and I want more of that. And the thing is, you can’t control what editor’s gonna come back with offers. You can’t control any of that, and the only thing you can control is sitting down and writing. And I always feel a lot better. Like, I feel like sort of healthy mentally healthy after I’ve written a good section of a book and I feel happy about it.
But, but the attention or the offers, it’s that old pick me thing firing up again. And then when that happens to you, you’re like, “I want it again. I want it again. I want more auctions.” It’s never enough. But luckily I was old enough, and I’d been through so much failure, and I had talked to so many authors, that I was like, “It’s okay.
Whatever the book does, it’s fine. This will probably never, ever happen again in my life if I get one book published.” I did it, and [00:18:00] hopefully it connects with some people. That was the main thing. Um, what does success actually look like?
Jennie: And when they... Yeah. So when the book actually came out, did you have that, a surge of that again?
Like, “Oh, I hope it sells X number of copies. Maybe I’ll hit bestseller list. Maybe I’ll get the film deal.” Like, did it, did you, does it go in waves?
Caroline: It did. Like, luckily I had had, um, that early nonfiction book that came out, and then another nonfiction book I edited, and I was very used to the experience of, uh, well, it shocked me at the time, but the book came out, we had a launch, we were in our 20s, so it was, like, a huge thing.
This cliff edge the day after the launch, like we never, ever, ever heard from anyone from the publishers or the editors ever again. Um, it didn’t, the books didn’t make any splash. So that was my experience with getting published in nonfiction. So I had very low expectations. [00:19:00] Yeah. Like, I think, I shouldn’t say this, but I think the first nonfiction book, I mean, it...
So I won’t even say what it sold. Like, it barely sold anything. Yeah. Like, we’re talking- Barely, yeah. I won’t even say. So then the second book sold a little bit more. Uh, and so I had very low expectations, but yeah, I could feel it coming back again. I could feel it coming back again. Um, but, um, by that, by the time it came out, I’d already got my second book deal, and it was a very, very tight deadline, and so I went straight into writing.
I just buried myself in the new book-
Jennie: In the new
Caroline: book, yeah ... um, to distract myself from it. But yeah, again, you do... You, you know what it is, Jennie, it’s that pick me thing again. I want to be the good writer. I want to be the one that makes the editors happy. Um- Yeah, I
Jennie: wanna earn my advance back. I wanna be the-
Caroline: Yeah
Jennie: publisher, yeah. Yeah. It never ends, really, you’re right. And what I so value about [00:20:00] what you’re saying is that so often the advice to writers is just purely about persistence. Yeah. Keep going. Keep trying. Keep submitting. Find another agent. Find a, you know, don’t give up, uh, you know, f- send it out- Yeah ... 100 times.
And- Yeah ... and you’re saying something very different, which is-
Caroline: Yeah ...
Jennie: change your mindset, and you can’t fake that. You can’t fake
Caroline: change your mindset. You can’t just say it to yourself. Yeah. Y- you can’t. And sometimes I, sometimes I say to my friends, “You keep going, keep going,” but I sometimes want to say to people- M- maybe, maybe you shouldn’t.
Uh, because I came across this quote by, I think it was Philip Roth, the writer, and somebody in the audience said to him, “I’ve been writing and I can’t get published, and what do you think I should do?” And he said, “You should quit, and if you can be happy without writing, well, you’ve won, you’re happy. But if you can’t be [00:21:00] happy without writing, then you should keep going.”
And so I do think you need to get something more out of it than just the idea of the book in a shop, and adulation, and bestsellers lists, and, um, proving people wrong. Even though I can say that does feel, that does feel good. But it’s never enough. It’s never enough. There will always be someone more successful with you.
And once you get the deal, then you’re just terrified of, of g- of getting thrown back out of the industry. So I think you have to take some control over your happiness back. Um, and that’s easy to say, but I also do f- I re- and I wrote a post about this on Substack, I really do feel like, um, there is way too much emphasis on perseverance.
And yes, I did persevere, but I didn’t just... Like, what happens with people if they don’t discover someone who can help them to improve, they will write... And I think the books are pointless, but the books don’t have a point in the sense that you describe in Blueprint for a Book. And so they will write book after book [00:22:00] after book, and they aren’t getting closer to publication.
So it’s not just, like publishing is not a meritocracy, it just does not reward effort. You know, you have to be constantly improving. You have to be learning your craft. You have to keep an eye on the commercial side of it as well. Um, so I don’t like when people say you just need to persevere, you just need to keep going, because the vast majority of people who are trying to get published will not get published.
And those that do get published, um, like I know a lot of people who have got published and cannot get back into traditional publishing, and it is eating them up, and it kills me to see it. And
Jennie: Yeah, there’s a lot of- I just think we don’t hear about that ... I know a
Caroline: lot of,
Jennie: yeah, I know a lot of writers who after a first or a second or even third success, their whole motivation is, “I just wanna keep being picked.”
Yes. “I just [00:23:00] wanna keep getting the next, you know, being able to do it again, getting the next deal.” They just wanna stay in it. And, um, uh, you know, it’s, the reason that your post and your message resonated so strongly with me is I have a very long history of, with this idea, and I had never articulated it quite as well as you had in that moment.
But I, way back in the day when I was writing books and writing novels, I had a, a three-book deal from a publisher, which for many people, this was after they published one, one of my novels. They, it was a three-book offer for the next three. And for many people, that’s, that’s the dream. That’s- Yeah ... that’s the top of the mountain.
But the amount of money that they had offered for each of those books, they wanted one a year for three years, and the amount of money was w- 100% not a sustainable [00:24:00] career. I would, I still needed a job, and then I would’ve needed to be writing these books at a fast clip, and I turned it down. And I, um, I sometimes, not sometimes, I often think about that, was that-
Caroline: Mm-hmm
Jennie: you know, should I have just persevered? Should I have just stuck with it? And but there was this sense of it wasn’t going to give me, uh, it was just, it was too little to, to give me what I really wanted- Yeah ... what, which was- Yeah ... to be able to write the books I wanted to write and, and be- Mm-hmm ... the kind of writer I wanted to be.
And that’s really what you’re talking about is the relationship- Yeah ... to the work. Um-
Caroline: That’s it.
Jennie: Yeah.
Caroline: That’s it. That’s it. Exactly, Jennie, because I think that’s such a brave thing to do because you’re actually thinking beyond just- The ego and what will sound great and what will impress people and what you’re supposed to do.
It always reminds me of, uh, [00:25:00] The Devil Wears Prada, and she keeps ... People keep saying, “Why are you sticking with this terrible job?” And people keep saying, “Thousands of girls would love to do your job.” And I th- always think that’s not the reason to do anything, just because a, a lot of people would take the thing in your place.
Um, and something actually back when I was reading your book, I came across I think maybe an interview that you had done. And, uh, you were talking about your book coaching business. And I think you said something like, “I loved being a novelist. Uh, but also I equally, if not more, am suited to and love coaching, book coaching.”
Right. Yeah. And that blew my mind, Jennie, because I thought, “No, that’s ... Nobody could prefer anything to writing a novel.” Because I think when you’re an aspiring novelist, ‘cause I say that to people who are trying to get published, and it ... I can see it’s really destabilizing because they’re kind of thinking, “Well, why am I putting all this effort?”
No, no, no. It’s gonna make life perfect. And I remember when I read that, it blew my mind [00:26:00] ‘cause I’m thinking there’s something better than ... You’re, you’re thinking I’m suited to it and I enjoy it more. So- Yeah,
Jennie: for me- ... how does that fit? ... the,
Caroline: the work-
Jennie: You know, it’s amazing ... yeah, the work of being a book coach used more of, of my whole self than- Mm-hmm
than writing alone did. And when I experienced that, I ... It, it was impossible to ignore. But the- Mm. I, I mean, it must be said that the real reason, again, your post resonated with me was I had these things in the back in my past, but I also have something in the extreme present, which is that I’m writing this book called Write Big.
And Write Big, the concept is, is about what we’re talking about. It’s about writing for yourself, writing with your whole heart, um, not writing to please- Yeah ... especially for women. Uh, not writing to be picked. The Pick Me episode you heard come, came [00:27:00] out of this. And, and I had, um, been on this journey with this book, um- And, and not really following my own lesson.
So in other words, I was saying, I was writing about not being picked. I was writing about tapping into what you wanna do and say and what the book wants to be, and yet I was wanting to be picked. And I, I self-published the Blueprint books, and they’ve done very, very well. Yeah. And with this book I had decided I wanted a traditional deal.
And so I- Mm ... went out and got... I hadn’t worked with an agent in years. I’ve had several in my career. But I went out and I found an agent who knew my work, loved my work, was excited to represent my work. We worked on a book proposal, which is what I do. I help people write book proposals. Yes, you... Yeah, yeah.
I... We, we wrote a fantastic book proposal. It was so good. [00:28:00] And, and we went out on submission and, and when... Just before I read your post, I learned that the 30th publisher we went out to had, had said no. Mm. So it... We came to the end of the line. We had decided we came to the end of the line on the submission of this proposal with this agent at this time.
And I was feeling that, exactly what you’re saying, that toxic sense of... For me it was actually embarrassment and some shame. Mm-hmm. Like, “I’m supposed to be the person that knows how to do this. I’m supposed to be the person that teaches people how to do this. Am I just a fraud now?” And I had given so much to the external validation of the whole thing.
Yeah. And I wanted... This is the real n- uh, nut of it. I wanted to be able to say the things that you’re saying- Mm ... from the place of having won. I’m using air [00:29:00] quotes, if you’re listening. Yes.
Caroline: Right? Yes. It allows you to say these things- Yeah ... if you got what you wanted.
Jennie: Yes. I
Caroline: totally agree. Yeah.
Jennie: Um- I wanted to be able to say, “Don’t have the pick me energy.
Don’t put your trust in the external thing. Write the book you wanna write.” I wanted that from that place of, of-
Caroline: Yes ... “
Jennie: Oh, this was my pure sense of it,” but actually underneath I didn’t believe it. And so I was- Yes ... just wrestling with this in my own gut when I read your post, and I just sat back in my chair.
Literally, I just sat back in my chair- Mm ... and I thought... I just sort of went, “Ah.” Like, “Yeah, I... That’s it. Just, it’s just needs to be a mindset shift.” And-
Caroline: Yeah ...
Jennie: but then the question... This is why I was so eager to speak to you. The question becomes, how do you know when- To keep hammering away at persistence.
Like, “Oh, I’ll find [00:30:00] another agent,” or, “Oh, well, I’ll tweak the proposal and try again and try again and try it again.” Or say, “I love this material. I love this book. I’m going to bring this out my own self.” Yeah. And I felt, when I sat with it, a real devotion to what I have written. I really quite love it, and I- Mm-hmm
believe in it, and it’s what I want to write. And it, I mean, ironically, the process of writing the right big book has forced me to grapple with these issues, uh, you know- Yeah ... in, in a really specific way of what do I really wanna say? And, and some of my, um, early beta readers have really pushed me, saying, “Well, you’re not doing what you say that we should do.
Yes. Yeah. “We can feel you hedging your bets. We can feel you giving away your power. We can feel you tamping yourself down.” Still
Caroline: [00:31:00] writing with an eye to the traditional- Yes ... yeah.
Jennie: Well, first of all- Or writing with an eye to not upsetting people or to not being seen- Yes ... as this or that, and-
Caroline: Palatable, yeah
Jennie: and so I’ve done- I would
Caroline: say- Yeah ... a couple of things. First of all, I really feel your pain. Especially, and this is what I’m saying, if you’ve already had success, you’ve been traditionally published, to publicly then not be able to get the thing you want is even more difficult. It’s not as difficult when you’re unpublished, because it’s part of the thing.
Um, but what I would say is it’s clearly difficult, but I think what you’re experiencing, and you are grappling with something very important, it’s the thing that’s driving us all and driving some of us mad, is this question of why are we doing this to ourselves? And it is the external validation. And I think when you figure this out, your writing will be so powerful because you will have figured it out.
Yeah. Um, and I met a woman ... And I mean, I talk the big [00:32:00] talk, but will I talk that talk when, you know- Right ... when things don’t work out, you know? And, and that’s me. You can come back to me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I met a woman a couple of weeks ago, and it really blew my mind because she was really talking the talk.
Um, I was at a book launch, and I met a writer who was about to fly over to London for, um, the finals of a big new writing competition. There were editors coming in. There were gonna be agents there. And if she won it, she was winning a publishing, traditional publishing deal, and she was self-published. And I said, “Oh my God, you’re gonna meet so many agents.
Even if you don’t win, you’re gonna get snapped up and blah, blah, blah. Well, you might. It’s gonna be great.” She was so relaxed, and she said, “To be honest, I’ve self-published my novels, and I have figured out how to reach my readers and sell to them, so I’m not really that phased or bothered about agents.” Ah.
“Wow, you’re the coolest person I’ve met.” And I thought, “Wow, she’s so powerful because they don’t hold any power over her.” They’re just some people who might be helpful or might not be helpful. [00:33:00] And then I thought the only thing that matters is reaching your readers. That’s right. Um, and so f- it’s so true.
And when you, when I saw what you were saying about having a nonfiction book coming out, the first thing I thought, because I’ve been following quite a few people going through this on Substack, was, “Well, Jennie Nash doesn’t need traditional publishing ‘cause you’ve got huge platform and a lot of fans, and you could self-publish.”
And I was reading about Emma Gannon, who- Mm ... sometimes goes trad publishing, sometimes she self-publishes, and one of her book, I think she said it’s her most successful yet, the one she has self-published. Uh, and then I came across another woman who is, I think she’s a big influencer. She has over 200,000 followers, and, uh, her name is Danielle Leslie.
And just in the last week she has been, if you look her up on Instagram, she put up an amazing post. She said, “I’ve got this cracking idea for...” Or she used better language than that, “... for a nonfiction, uh, book. [00:34:00] I’m trying to decide whether to self-publish or...” And she’s actually talking about the exact things you were talking about.
She’s very intelligent, and she writes very well, and she, she got so much attention from literary agents. She had at least nine or more meetings as a result of this Instagram post, and she talked to a lot of bestsellers, and she weighed up all the pros and cons of traditional versus self-publishing. And she was like, “Yeah,” I think she said, “part of it is the validation.”
And she weighed up the financials and the pros and cons, and she’s decided to go with self-publishing, and she had to make that decision, too. Like, part of it is being picked Yeah, I
Jennie: think I read that post actually. It was quite long- Yeah ... and she had the details on the, the finances. Yeah. And yeah, it’s just such an interesting, um, place to, to be to confront your own, um-
Caroline: Yeah
Jennie: your own desire for validation. And, and that’s why what you’re saying when you realize that [00:35:00] it’s an insatiable hunger that will never be
Caroline: filled. It will never be enough. It
Jennie: will
Caroline: never be enough. It will never
Jennie: be enough. And-
Caroline: Because let’s say you, you got a big huge advance for this from a traditional publisher, then you’re under huge pressure to earn out the advance or else you won’t get another.
Jennie: That’s right.
Caroline: You know? Or maybe you will or maybe you won’t.
Jennie: That’s
Caroline: right. And it
Jennie: all depends. And, and the, the... It can eat at you. I know, I, I know people who, um, you know, well, I, I don’t want to, I don’t want to give any- anybody’s inner life away. But I, I know wildly successful people who are bitterly dis- disappointed when they don’t- Yes
make a certain list because they- Yes ... made it before. Because they, you know, they’re, the bar just keeps getting higher and higher for what makes it okay for you. And so shedding that and tapping back into this deep [00:36:00] why, I mean, it sounds like it happened in a profound way for you. But then that’s why I was asking, does it keep happening?
That you have to keep... Mindset doesn’t just, it’s like, “Oh, I changed my mind and now I’m fine.” Mindset is a practice. You have to keep- That’s right ... thinking about it. And so I’m curious, you said you were writ- writing, so, um, The Marriage Vendetta, again, came out last year, and it’s called The Village coming out in 2027.
Caroline: Yes.
Jennie: And you said that you started working on that book to sort of distract yourself from the launch of The Marriage Vendetta. Did you feel any of that- Well, this will get the bigger, big advance, or well, this will get the big movie deal. Like, did you feel that with the second book, or were you able to kind of hold it back?
Caroline: I have learned to not let it sway me up and down. Yeah. Um, because I [00:37:00] thought to myself, it’s very difficult even to get one book published. One book will satisfy me, and to be honest, for all my big talk, it did satisfy. It calmed something in me. It calmed and permanently fixed something in me. Um, it did prove something to me, and that was permanently fixed by getting a traditional book deal.
I will say that. Um- Oh,
Jennie: I love that you’re saying this. I love that you’re saying this so much, that yeah, you knew you, you knew you needed that and wanted that, and you kept at it. Yeah. And I wonder if that’s part of the answer of what I was struggling for, is how does a writer... Like, I know So you knew that you had to change your material.
That was a thing you did. When you got my book and the other books-
Caroline: Yes ...
Jennie: you knew you needed to, to learn something more about the work. I’m sitting in a place where I don’t think that’s what I need. I think-
Caroline: Yeah ...
Jennie: that I need to not persevere, in other words.
Caroline: [00:38:00] Yeah. Yeah.
Jennie: And so I w- And- I wonder how somebody who’s trying to decide which side of that equation they, they’re sitting on, how we could help them think through that decision.
Caroline: Well, in a very practical way, I paid people to tell me. I decided, and I mean, you could do this too. Anyone could do this. I thought, “Enough of this torture. I am gonna pay a former agent from the Madeleine...” Madeleine Milburn was my number one agency that I wanted to get to, uh, represented by. So I paid a former Madeleine Milburn agent to tell me what she thought, and I also paid a former Harper Collins commissioning editor to tell me what she thought.
And I think we need a lot of cheerleaders at certain points in our writing, but when the writing’s [00:39:00] done, we n- we need brutal honesty. We need someone to put us out of our misery. “Tell me honestly, am I barking up the wrong tree? Am I wasting my, like, years of my life on this? Someone please tell me, am I just, like, wasting my time?”
So I paid those two women, “Tell me honestly.”
Jennie: Do you
Caroline: mind- Uh ...
Jennie: do you mind my asking what you paid?
Caroline: Um, I’ve gone back to them since a couple of times. They’re not... They’re based in, um, one woman is from England, one is Irish, and so their, their charges or their fees are less than the US-based. Um, but these were just for, like, a query package assessment.
Jennie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Caroline: And so- The former agent said, “This will get snapped up by agents. The Voice, it will get snapped up.” And I’d never heard anything [00:40:00] encouraging before, really. Uh, I’d just died on submission, and the former commissioning editor said, “You are not barking up the wrong tree with this, but start writing something else because it might not sell.”
So I thought, “Okay, I’ll keep going.” And then, and then I didn’t get snapped up by agents, but she was in my head saying, “You will, The Voice.” Yeah. And I thought, “Well, she knows what she’s talking about.” So I think you need to stop going to Other writers. Not you, I mean writers as far as- Yes,
Jennie: yes ... you
Caroline: to... Yes.
Yeah. At some point, stop going to beta readers, your writing critique group. You need to go to the people who make these decisions with the market knowledge, and just say, “Look, I can take it. I can take the truth.”
Jennie: Yes.
Caroline: Just hit me hard.
Jennie: Yes. Well-
Caroline: Tell me to kill the project ...
Jennie: well, and this is the role- I’ll do it
that a lot of book coaches play for people, not that, that they’re in an acquisition role, but book coaches are trained to see and to help people decide when to go forward or not. And- [00:41:00] Yeah ... we can see so clearly that- Yes ... I mean, I have seen so many manuscripts over my career where- Mm ... people have come out of, this is one of the reasons I am not a fan of writing groups, is people will- Yeah
come out of writing groups and say, “I’ve been sharing this with my writing group for years, and everybody loves it, and, and we all think it’s ready to go,” and, you know- Yeah ... or my critique partner, or this or that. And then we look at it, and we think, “No, there’s, no.” No. It’s just there’s glaringly obvious things.
Like, people think that there’s, there are, I’m gonna say this wrong, is it objective things that are wrong- Yes ... with, with manuscripts, not subjective, and they think, um, that when if somebody’s saying, “I’ll persist, I’ll persist, I’ll persist,” they’re thinking, “Oh, that’s just their subjective opinion.” But there are objective realities to good writing that are very easy to see if it’s not you.
Caroline: Yes.
Jennie: Right? [00:42:00] And so the, a book coach- I completely
Caroline: agree, Jennie. Yeah.
Jennie: Yeah. A book coach can play that role for people at a, a much more affordable rate probably. Even just a very short, like you were saying, a query package, which is typically the query and maybe sample chapters or synopsis, and, and we can see.
And so that’s a fantastic piece of actionable advice, that don’t go to the people who love you, who know you.
Caroline: Yeah.
Jennie: Go pay someone who knows, who is in a position of bringing work to the marketplace in some way. Yeah. So because, and say exactly what you said, “Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is this- Yes ... is this ready or not?”
I, I just think that’s genius advice, and so many people don’t wanna take it. And, um, you know, you’re making me think of, of my own, um, of my own situation here.
Caroline: It- Yeah.
Jennie: But [00:43:00] Jennie, if I was- And, and I think that’s what I’m gonna do, actually. That’s exactly- Yeah ... what I’m gonna do. Yeah.
Caroline: I- if I was in your position, I would do what, and this is a strategy I followed for both my books.
I still got advice For my second book too because, you know, I’m not taking any chances. Yeah. I know how hard it is to stay in the game, so I got advice again. Brilliant and brutal advice. Yeah. And I took it. Um, and if I were you, I would pick your top pick of publisher, and then I would find someone on Reedsy or, or who used to work there as commissioning editor, and I would go and get a, like a, a quick, like
They could probably tell from the, the pitch and the opening few pages, like why is this not being picked up? Yeah. And they will know instantly, you know? Um ...
Jennie: Well, what’s interesting about my situation is, um, my, my agent did something unusual, I’ve never actually heard about it before, which is she had a spreadsheet and she shared the rejections with me as they came in.
Mm. And the [00:44:00] rejections were I would say, um, wildly positive. So, so we got some extremely specific and encouraging rejections. Um, and I actually recorded a podcast about it that will be going out before this conversation goes out. Um, I was, I was absolutely thrilled with the first five rejections we got. I was so...
I was giddy because- Mm ... everyone, they knew my work, which blew me away. Um, all these- Yeah, that’s amazing ... all these editors at all these publishing companies, big ones, knew my work, loved the proposal, understood what I was trying to do, saw the value in it. Many of them were saying, “Personally, I love this,” but the, the always the but for me was about being able to break it out in the way that they needed to break it out because I’m not an influencer.
I’m, [00:45:00] don’t have... I have a very strong platform, but not the kind of- Oh ... platform that they need. So in some ways- Okay ... I have my answer. Like-
Caroline: Oh, you have your answer, yeah. Yeah.
Jennie: I have my answer, and I, and I, I got enough validation that was specific, and I’m not m- I’m not making that part up because it’s, it was right there and, and I discussed it with my agent even, like, “Am I seeing this correctly?”
They, they loved it, right?
Caroline: Yeah.
Jennie: And you know- Yeah ... we, we were able to have that. So it, in some ways I, I already have that.
Um-
Caroline: You do have your answer, yeah, and it’s an unfortunate one because that is not your fault. That’s the market. But for me, I would be able to take that and say it, it’s nothing to do with my writing or me.
Yeah. It’s the way the market is. Unfortunately, you have to be almost an influencer to, or, or a celebrity to get an- Yeah, yeah ... published in the US. Yeah. Well, and it’s
Jennie: different with nonfiction and fiction, right? So that- Yeah ... I think that must be said as well, that I’m talking about a [00:46:00] nonfiction book and a, a very addressable market that I can reach, and fiction would be a different situation.
I think it is a- Yes ... slightly different reality. Yes. Um, but you can get information from the types of rejections you’re getting. You know, the, I call them the black hole rejections, where you’re sending out queries and just hearing nothing ever. That’s telling you something, you know? Yeah. Right there. Um...
Caroline: Yes. Yeah. Um, there was just one other thing if we have time that I was going to say that really helped me, and maybe it might help you. Please,
Jennie: yeah.
Caroline: Um, which is before... Because I had seen so many writers not be fulfilled by getting their dream come true. Because I interviewed a, I set up a little blog, and I interviewed a lot of authors, and a lot of the people who subscribed, then, to my newsletter were not unpublished.
They were published and struggling to get back in, and I was very aware that- this [00:47:00] whole thing of, uh, the moving goalposts would take away the joy of actually getting a book deal. And so before, when my book went out in submission, I asked myself, “Define success for this book. Define what will be enough.”
Yes.
Jennie: Yes.
Caroline: Uh, specifically. So that, because what could happen if you don’t do that is that success that actually will make you happy could pass you by and you don’t recognize it. Yes. So I got very specific.
Jennie: That
Caroline: is- And I thought- ...
Jennie: such good advice. Yeah
Caroline: I think so, because it saved my sanity, because otherwise you’re like, “Well, year time’s listing is all I want and nothing else,” and that won’t satisfy you either, ‘cause then you’re gonna try and do it again.
So my definition of success for The Marriage Vendetta was one person, one reader feeling seen, like someone else in the world that experienced the exact emotions they had felt, that they were like, “That, that is [00:48:00] what it feels to be alive.” And I thought, “If one reader gets in touch with me and says that, I’ve done my job.”
And I tried to persuade myself with that. I was like, “Well, we’ll see.”
Jennie: And
Caroline: have they,
Jennie: Caroline? We’ll see.
Caroline: Well, one of the editors in the whole submission process, during the whole frenzied month we had, um, the best thing that happened was one editor texted my agent and said, “It’s like Caroline has read my mind.”
And I said, “That’s it.” That’s
Jennie: it. That’s it.
Caroline: I didn’t even have an offer on the book at the time. I wasn’t sure it was gonna get published, and I said, “That’s success. That’s it. I recognize it. That’s made it all worthwhile.” And it really did help, because otherwise it’s like... And the other thing that really helped me, Jennie, was that I knew what I’m working towards, the bigger goal, which is, like, trying to contribute in some way towards feminism.
And there was another big book that was way bigger than mine. Took off in a huge way, and now the old me would have been eaten up by that. Like, “That should have been me. I’ve failed.”
Jennie: Yep.
Caroline: But that book had such a strong, [00:49:00] such a strong message. It was a beautiful book, and it got a whole conversation starting.
And so instead I thought, her success is my success because the bigger goal is tr- is women’s rights, and she had done that.
Jennie: Oh,
Caroline: isn’t that- So there’s no reason for me to be jealous ...
Jennie: beautiful. That’s beautiful, right? So for me, where I’m ... This has, this has all been about me. Yeah, but I love it. The whole reason I s- I love it
I wanted to talk to you was about me. So for me- But I wonder for
Caroline: you, Jennie, what it is. What
Jennie: does success look
Caroline: like?
Jennie: Well, right? The ... I mean, I always am interested in impact. My whole business of training and certifying book coaches has been about impact. And, and then I’ve had to define what that means and what that looks like.
And I ... You know, it sounds very grandiose, but I think we teach writing wrong. And, and by we, I mean our culture all the way into the school systems, [00:50:00] how we talk about writing, how we teach people to write, how we value creativity. I think there’s a lot that’s really wrong with it, and that’s what has driven me, is that there’s, there’s a better way to help writers- write their best books.
And you’ve tapped into it. You found a way, your own self, to tap into it. And what I’m trying to do is teach book coaches to help writers tap into it. That’s my whole thing, is really changing the way writing is taught and the way writers value themselves. That- Yeah ... that’s my motivation in everything that I’ve done.
I- I’ve been running this business now for, this is our 14th year, and there’s ups, there’s downs. And to your point, it’s not about the money. It’s not about the validation. It’s not about, “Oh, look at me. I sit as a leader of this business,” or, “I have this reputation.” I know from my own experience that [00:51:00] that’s, th- there, it’s never enough.
I could never get enough validation. I could never get, um, enough praise or PR- Mm ... or, you know, anything to m- Yeah ... to fill that hole up. But when I tap into ... When I say kind of grandiose, I mean, it’s a little embarrassing to say it to you and knowing that I’m saying it to a whole lot of other people who will listen later, but that I, I think, I think I have a better way.
And, and that the talking about these things as we are matters. And so for this new book, that’s all I have to do ‘cause that’s what it’s all about. It’s, it’s taking that idea to the next, a deeper level than the blueprint did, a, a more universal level- Mm ... in some ways- Mm-hmm ... than the blueprint did. So I, you know, that feels, even when I say it now, it feels, I can feel the relief in my body.
You know? Like, that’s ... It’s, it’s quite [00:52:00] easy in some ways to just do that- Yeah ... little shift. But, um, you know, easy to s- And- ... to say, not easy to, to do.
Caroline: To really feel it. Yeah.
Jennie: Yeah.
Caroline: But I think the difference between the two approaches is Our sort of need to be picked by the traditional publishing is kind of, it’s about our- ourselves and our ego, whereas what you’re talking about, helping writers, and your book has been transformational for me.
You’re talking about other people. You know, you’re, you’re helping other people. Whereas the traditional route is it’s very much like on the author, my book- Yeah ... my book has to do well, my reputation. Whereas what, what you’ve done is you’re helping other people, which is so much, this is so healthy, and mentally healthy, and, and so wonderful.
It has this lovely ripple effect out, um-
Jennie: Well, and I ... You’re giving me something I think I need to work on, ‘cause I’m hearing you today [00:53:00] literally say my book changed your writing career and your life. And, and I didn’t know that when we connected on- Mm-hmm.
Caroline: Yeah. It’s
Jennie: funny going-
Caroline: On, on
Jennie: Substack. Yeah. Like a
Caroline: full circle thing
Jennie: But, but part of me doesn’t actually believe it.
So, like, or won’t take it in. Yeah. I’m not sitting here thinking, “Wow, this is the biggest win for me,” or, “This is- Yeah ... this is what I live for.” I’m not feeling that. I’m, I’m sort of feeling like- Yeah ... okay, like I don’t quite believe it. And so that’s something I’m gonna think about. Because here- Yeah ... here you are saying that to my face and- Yeah
you know, you have no reason to be making that up. And, and it sort of happened serendipitously, and yet I don’t, uh ... You know? So I, that’s interesting to me to recognize, ‘cause you recognized when your reader told you the thing you wanted. You said, “That’s it?” Yeah. “That’s it.” And, and I am not doing that. [00:54:00] So that’s curious to me as well.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I could, I could actually talk to you every day about this. It would be- It would be enormously, um, valuable and helpful to me. But I, I, I think this is one of the most important conversations I’ve shared on this podcast. And I, I think the work that you’re doing both in, in your writing but in your sharing of your writing and what you’re, what you’re allowing people to see in yourself is, is just profoundly important.
And-
Caroline: Well, thank you,
Jennie: Jennie ... um, thank you for saying what you’re saying out there, for saying what you’ve said here today, for, for all of it. Um, so for anybody listening, you can hear- The, the depth of Caroline’s thought, and wisdom, and heart, this all comes out in her novels as well. So [00:55:00] you can read The Marriage Vendetta now, and in 2027 we’ll be looking for The Village.
And where can people find you on Substack and Instagram?
Caroline: Oh, yes, so it’s Caroline Madden on Substack. The name of my newsletter is Rising Tides Writers, I think. Uh, and on Instagram, I am Caroline Madden Writer. Uh, but I’m, I’ve had to quit Instagram ‘cause it’s too, uh... It wrecks my concentration. I can’t write when I’m on it.
But I love Substack, so you can find me there. Amazing.
Jennie: That’s amazing, and I will be there as a fan and a follower, and I just appreciate you so much.
Caroline: Oh, same to you, Jennie. You have changed the course of my writing life, whether you believe it or not. I will keep telling people and recommending your book.
Um, and thank you so much for having me on.
Jennie: Thank you.
The hashtag [00:56:00] amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Parrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work
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